Our Fave Late Summer Flowers & How Rebecca Learned to Love Bugs

We're in the dog days of summer when lots of blooms have come and gone, but a few of our favorites (echinacea, hydrangea, clematis) are carrying us through!  Plus, follow along as Rebecca describes her journey from bug phobia to bug appreciation.

Episode Transcript

Rebecca (00:05):
Welcome to leafing out a podcast about gardening. I'm
Rebecca.

Gabe Long (00:09):
And I'm Gabe.

Rebecca (00:10):
And we are not experts at all. We are amateur
gardeners, sharing what we learnas we learn it on our gardening
journey.

Gabe Long (00:19):
What are we learning about today?

Rebecca (00:20):
Well, let's see. Today we're going to talk about what
our favorite plants in thegarden are right now. And we're
also going to talk about bugsthat I have a tormented
relationship with.

Gabe Long (00:34):
We're working on a journey, the journey is that
you, you have an interestingrelationship drink every

Rebecca (00:39):
time you hear us use the word journey on this
episode, I'm gonna really try torein it in. I feel like I'm
using that every other sensethese days. Gabe, what's your
favorite plant in the gardenright now,

Gabe Long (00:55):
my favorite plant in the garden is the akinesia.
Because aka corn flour, Iplanted it from seed at the
beginning of last spring, sospring of 2020. And it was just
little tiny plants throughoutthe summer, I had planted some

(01:15):
purple ones and white ones, butthere were no blooms at all. And
now it's like this profusion ofcolor that has, I think it
started blooming at thebeginning of July. And you know,
I feel like a lot of the plantsin our garden, they have a
really spectacular bloom period,but it might be 10 days, two
weeks, maybe three weeks. Andthose akinesia have been

(01:37):
blooming for a month and a halfat this point. And they just are
rock stars of this period oftime when a lot of things are a
little faded in our hot, humidclimate. And also, I have to say
that I know you're not thebiggest fan of growing things
from seed. But I do feel like avery special connection to those

(01:59):
ectasia because I grew them fromseed because I had to wait
through all of last year andthen the beginning of this year
to see them bloom. I really havelike, I just I focus on them
every time I go outside.

Rebecca (02:13):
You're so right about all of this, which it pains me
to say sometimes, but you'retotally right. I do. I was just
thinking, yeah, I do rememberlast year, all these little
akinesia plants that kind oflike I don't know, they looked
like weeds sort of like I had tokeep remembering not to pull
them out. And it was worth it.
Because now they look so good.

(02:35):
And I noticed that there aremore of those flowers this year
than there are of theneighboring white coneflower
that we have. That is that comesfrom a plant that I bought and
planted like I think threesummers ago. And so we kind of
got like a faster, betterresult, even though the first

(03:00):
summer kind of sucked. So that'skind of an interesting point of
comparison, actually, becauseI'm just you're right, I'm so
impatient. I don't love plantingcertain things. There's some
stuff that you can grow fromseeds so easily that it's not
worth doing anything else thanthat. But there's some things
especially like perennials, thata lot of perennials, I always am

(03:21):
like let's just buy the plant,let's just buy the biggest plant
we can because I want to likeget to cut to the chase and get
to the point where it looksreally voluminous and abundant.
It's really filling in the holein the garden that I stick it
in. And you know, I want it tohave that like English cottage
garden, feeling right away asquickly as possible. And the way

(03:44):
to get that is to have big,bushy shrubby great looking
plants and growing from seedtake more patients, but in that
case, yeah, you're right. Theydo look really good.

Gabe Long (03:55):
I think there's a place for both. I mean, I'm not
trying to grow our rhododendronsfrom seed,

Rebecca (03:59):
oh my god. But thank you for not trying to do

Gabe Long (04:04):
our ferns are akinesia the you know the
herbaceous perennials, I thinkyou grow them from seed and like
you're saying

Rebecca (04:11):
ferns are different though ferns are totally
probably not the best examplebecause they aren't even grown
from seed, right?

Gabe Long (04:17):
They

Rebecca (04:19):
here's the thing, we can Google that. firms do not
have flowers or seeds, theyreproduce sexually by tiny or I

Gabe Long (04:28):
knew that they had something that spread it's not
just they're not your listeners,

Rebecca (04:31):
please do not try to grow ferns from seed. Let's see.
If you buy anything on theentire internet. Burned seed.
You're gonna get something else.
But yeah, Fern like it's noteven pop pollination. But the
way that ferns reproduce isreally like worth digging into
on a different episode becauseit's really it's fascinating,

(04:51):
crazy and interesting. Butthat's not we're talking about
here what a tangent. We've

Gabe Long (04:57):
got what

Rebecca (04:57):
now, you were gonna say that Let's do

Gabe Long (05:00):
both. And like yeah, with herbaceous perennials, I
think, if you don't mind waitingthe you know, the year or so for
them to come into their own,then like you're saying with our
side by side coneflowers, theones that you plant from seed
might be a bit better suitedbecause they will have grown
from infancy in that spot.

Rebecca (05:21):
And another really different scenario that would
make a lot of sense to growsomething like coneflower from
seed and is if you do have a lotof space, you know, if you have,
if you're someone who like, wasliving in the city, and then
decided during the pandemic torelocate to a house in the
country or something, and youhave like tons of space, and you
can set up a bed somewhere whereyou're just doing your kind of

(05:43):
messing around experimentingstuff, then you could plant a
whole bunch of akinesia fromseed. And soon enough, you'll
have tons of plants and you canrelocate them wherever you want
them. And that is way moreeconomical than trying to buy
all of those at like $15 a plantat the nursery or something.
That's totally The thing that Iwould do if I owe to have that

(06:06):
much space. Where where's thatkaneesha happy, where does it
like to grow.

Gabe Long (06:11):
So, um, it's technically a full sun plant,
but I would say ours is inpretty part sun, maybe four
hours of direct sun, it doesn'thave any immediate large
competition, I will say that andthat's a difference between
where I've seen our garden dobetter and worse is like we have

(06:32):
some that you you bought as alarger plant by the witch hazel.
And it's a little bit liketucked under the witch hazel and
does not seem to like that sortof flops and seems to be
stretching for the light. And Idon't know if there's like water
and nutrient competition goingon happy over there. If not
happy there.

Rebecca (06:48):
I will say and I was good. This is what I was going
to mention next about akinesiais if you do grow at home At
home, I really would encourageyou to grow the the typical
coneflower varieties, and notthese new, crazy looking
akinesia that are double blooms.
And this

Gabe Long (07:09):
has something to do with

Rebecca (07:12):
dogs. We need like an audio cue something Oh God,
something. Um, so we have in ourgarden, a whole bunch of these
beautiful purple and some arewhite coneflower. And they're
great. And the pollinators gocrazy for them go out there. And

(07:32):
there's like, you know, 10different species of bees, and
wasps and stuff buzzing aroundthem and butterflies, and it's
fantastic. And you know, andthen the ones that are growing
under the witch hazel tree thataren't doing so well are
actually this stupid new thingthat I bought, because I

(07:54):
couldn't resist I was an impulsebuy at Home Depot. I'm not proud
of it, but I gotta be honest,they look like they have these
long flower long petals on theedge all around the edge of the
flower, like a regular akinesiaflower. And then the center of
the bloom instead of having likea little spiky orangey yellow

(08:17):
part in the center. What theyhave instead is this big,
roughly fluffy, compact, halfglobe of petals. And so they're
cool looking. And you might seethem in the garden center and
say that's so cool looking, Ihave to have it. Okay, here's
the thing, anytime you seesomething that has all of those

(08:37):
really tight, fluffy petals inthe center, that is what we call
a double double bloom or double,double double blossom. That is
usually going to be like aFrankenstein of a plant that the
pollinators can't utilize. Theycan't use it because if you look

(08:59):
at the way a bee uses a flower,it's going to the center of the
flower to get the pollen or getthe nectar. If there's all these
petals in the center instead ofnectar and pollen, the the
insects can't access anythinguseful about the plant because
there's all of those petals inthe way there choke, it's
choking out access.

Gabe Long (09:18):
This is an I'm stretching beyond the limits of
what I really should be talkingabout here. But I think also
that secondary part of theblossom that you're talking
about that center part of theblossom is actually the
statements. I think that'swhat's called the pollen
containing part of the plant.
It's been bred in such a waythat instead of statements, it

(09:40):
has petals, but it's like thathas have taken over that part of
the plant.

Rebecca (09:48):
I think it depends on the class. Yeah, I think there's
a bunch of different types. Andlisten, like some of them are so
beautiful that it's like Dude,you got to do it's not we're not
we're not like Crazy nativeenforcers who will only plant
only the things that are bestfor the insects and the birds
and everything. Because you canyou can take that road really,

(10:11):
really far. And I think it'snice to straddle the line a
little bit of what appeals toyou visually and what is
supporting the ecosystem.
There's a lot to talk about onthe subject of natives and
insects and the ways that theplants interact with the
environment. But the but thelong story short is that like
that, that Demacia with thedouble blooms that I thought

(10:33):
were so cool looking, they're abust, like no, no insects are
over there. They're not doinganything. As someone recently I
heard someone recently say thatthat flower might as well be a
statue of a flower, like it'sdoing nothing in the garden
other than how it looks. So it'scool to see that like the actual
native species is thriving inthe garden. It's beautiful to

(10:56):
look at. It's very happy. Andalso the insects are loving it.
And then right next to it.
Here's this dumb, stupid doubleblossom thing that I bought,
that I learned my lesson on, andlike it's not doing well.

Gabe Long (11:12):
And I think you made a very good point about the
native nature of being so prettyto look at I think, you know, if
I think of like, I have acertain allowance of non
natives, where do I want to usethat allowance? I'm going to use
that on the things that are likethe real stunners that you know
all we have the section that'sdry shade. And we need a climber
and there's like this one thingthat's not a native but it'll be

(11:34):
perfect there and all greatlike, use your non natives there
for the place where you want toput the egg in Asia. That's such
an easy like, place to use thenative that the pollinators are
going to love. We're going to becontributing to the ecosystem.
It's gonna look great. You don'tneed to mess around with that
and use this this, as you'resaying, Frankenstein, right of a

(11:56):
plant.

Unknown (11:57):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I feel

Gabe Long (11:59):
like we have covered our favorite plant.

Rebecca (12:03):
I wouldn't say my favorite plant. So sorry.

Gabe Long (12:05):
I didn't realize I thought we were here. And we
want to do a favorite plant.

Rebecca (12:09):
So great. So I've been thinking and thinking about what
my favorite plant in the gardenis right now. I always find it
so difficult to choose afavorite right now. I kind of

Gabe Long (12:20):
like choosing a favorite child. Oh,

Rebecca (12:24):
we all know who the favorite child is. Just kidding.
It's just kidding. It's me toknow that I've got no, I think
it's hard to choose a favoritebecause I feel like there's like
a shell effect of the gardenwhere like the whole is more
than the sum of the parts. Andjust picking a favorite plant in
particular, I don't know takesaway from like, oh point is how

(12:46):
they work in concert with eachother and the context and stuff.
But um, one favorite plant rightnow is our Limelight hydrangea.
It's so beautiful. And weplanted it I think this is its
third year in the garden. Youknow, as small as like in a
gallon and a half pot, maybe ora one gallon pot, it was a
little plant. And it's six feettall. And the blooms are larger

(13:11):
than my head. And they're reallyfun because they're so bright,
called they're so large, they'rereally bright, almost almost
great on the line between likegreen and cream colored. And
they just are a nice focal pointin an area of the garden where
like you said not allowed a lotelse is blooming there right

(13:33):
now. So having such a kind ofstunner, you know, at this point
in the summer in that spot whereit's part shade, there aren't a
ton of things that produce bigflowers, you know, at this time
of year in Perth shade anyway, Ijust look at it every day when I
walk outside and I'm like, Ah,it's so happy. It's so cheerful

(13:54):
and the blooms last a reallylong time. And that is really
key about it. Also

Gabe Long (13:58):
like you can leave the blooms on there to dry like
Yeah, yeah, kind of will and rotand

Rebecca (14:04):
as summer turns to fall, what's going to happen is
they're going to turn more of apink tone I think. And then like
a dusty rose pink color. Andthen as frost happens, the
leaves will brown and fall offand the blooms will dry. And
then usually when we're doinglike spring leaf like general

(14:26):
cleanup out there, I'm pickingup the little tumble we if they
turn into kind of thesetumbleweeds that tumble around
in the wind and the snow andstuff and it's cool. It's just a
nice sort of one plant thatgives you a lot of seasonal
interest and kind of threadsthat needle of like you're
observing the plants throughoutthe seasons, not just the

(14:49):
flowers when they're at theirmaximum but kind of spending
time with the plant as it goesthrough this whole metamorphosis
as it goes through its lifecycle each each year. So that's,
that's my one favorite. But Iwant to give a little like
footnote bonus favorite to theclematis that we have growing up

(15:10):
the side of our house right nextto the back door. I had read
that it's really nice to put aclimber right next to the back
door just to like, drawattention and make it really
beautiful because the back doorof your house, a door to your
house is always going to be afocal point. So you might as
well make it as beautiful aspossible because it's always
going to be a focal point it'salways going to be a place where

(15:32):
people look at it from far awayand from close up. So it's
called clematis macro peladaMountain Dale, and we got it
just this year from brushwoodnurseries, which specializes in
clematis and other climbingvines. spawn COP is not spawn
con only Hey bro. nursery freak,send us some climate? Um, no, I

(15:55):
think they I think they sponsorMargaret roaches podcast a way
to garden which is really reallywonderful and our status so
much. So anyway, I thought ifthey sponsor Margaret they're
probably pretty good. So I mightas well look up and spend some
some money there. And thisclimate is is unbelievable. It's
so beautiful. The blooms when Ithink of traditional climate is

(16:17):
the blooms are kind of likethese flat discs of petals. That
you look at head on and you seethe center of it and all the
petals kind of go out. Macropull out a mountain down has
hanging blossoms that hang downthey're described as hanging
like ballet skirts, and thepetals are what I would describe

(16:42):
as almost like a purplehighlighter a purple like like
blue purple. Shockingly bright,beautiful, true blue, purple. A
lot of purples in the garden arelike maybe lavender, but more of
like a almost pinky purple.

Gabe Long (17:00):
dusty like I see it.

Rebecca (17:03):
Yeah, it's hard. It's rare to find like really purpley
purple, blue, purple saturated.
Yeah, saturated purple. And man,this has it and it's blooming
the set for the second time. Weplanted it this spring. It
bloomed. Now it has grown. Idon't know maybe four feet. Oh,
it'll grow a lot taller. It'lladd ultimately, it'll grow eight

(17:24):
to 12 feet high. And I dead.
Yes. trellised on the back ofour house, it won't damage the
house, it will die back to theroot and we'll just pull the
dead plant material off of thetrellis at the end of the year.
And it's blooming for the secondtime. It's so beautiful. Like I

(17:47):
everyone should have this plantin the garden. It's so gorgeous.
So that's those my faves.

Gabe Long (17:51):
Yeah, those are good face. Oh, yes.

Rebecca (17:57):
Okay, so let's talk about bugs.

Gabe Long (17:59):
I'm excited to talk about bugs. I fucking love bugs,
and you fucking hate but

Rebecca (18:04):
I am one of those people who has what I now have
discovered, I guess people aresaying it's maybe a genetic
thing or something wheremosquitoes really love me and
they will go to me and find meeven in a crowd. I will be like
covered in mosquitoes. Sogrowing up that way, I think

(18:25):
made me sort of bug phobic. AndI don't love spiders. I think
I'm in very good company withpeople who just don't love bugs.

Gabe Long (18:33):
You have a reasonable like, you have a very average.

Rebecca (18:37):
Probably Yeah, I would say that's right. But what's
been really cool is getting moreand more interested in gardening
and spending time in the garden.
I have been experiencing the waythat bugs work in like a
different way. And it's made memore interested in them. And
definitely more of a bug haterof bad bugs. But kind of a bug

(18:59):
lover of the good bugs on ourbug friends.

Gabe Long (19:05):
I guess I want to set up your bug journey by talking
about many years ago inBrooklyn. We had our first
garden together and i wasgrowing some kale and there were
a lot of aphids on the kale waseat a lot a lot of and that I
think not only put you offeating the kale in our garden,
but maybe put you off eatingkale period.

Rebecca (19:28):
Quite freaked me it really freaked me out. Yeah. So
gross. You know, aphids, likedon't bite or anything. I don't
know. They shouldn't be so bad,but they're just gross as hell.

Gabe Long (19:40):
They're so gross.
pretty gross. But we still haveaphids, and we're in a new
garden and the aphids are on theplants that we eat from time to
time, but I feel like you'vereally I want you to take us
through the journey has come

Rebecca (19:52):
a long way. Yeah, it's come a long way.

Gabe Long (19:54):
What happened? What did you learn?

Rebecca (19:55):
Okay, here's the thing that happened. What happened?
What happened was We plantedsome honeysuckle and I went out
to the garden and I said, Oh,the honeysuckle is growing so
fast. It's doing really well.
There's so much of it. I startedinspecting it. Oh, it looks like
some blooms are starting to formsome buds. And I started looking

(20:16):
at it and I saw aphids. Oh mygod, there's aphids on the
honeysuckle. And I startedGoogling it. Oh, what should we
do? We blast it off with water.
I don't really want to useinsecticide. They're kind of
harmless but like not grit,which we do. And I kind of was
lazy and I didn't really doanything. Because it seemed

(20:37):
overwhelming and hard. And Ididn't want to interact with the
aphids even enough to treat theplant for the aphids. So I just
was like Yeah, whatever. Andthen I went back out like a week
later or two weeks later, and Iwas like whoa, whoa, let's see
how many aphids there are now.
Oh, God. And then I noticed Oh,ladybugs are here. Look, the

(20:58):
lady but this isn't spring and Inoticed that I was seeing a
couple of ladybugs flying aroundand kind of landing on the
icicle. Long story short, TheLadyBugs were laying eggs on the
honeysuckle, which I foundthey're cool looking. They're
kind of bright orangey yellow,they lay them on the underside

(21:19):
of the leaves in these neat,really cute tight little rows.
And I watched the eggs and thenthey hatched into little tiny
Ladybug nymphs that look likealligators without much like so
much like alligators. They havethese weird little tails but
they wag around, and they havelittle tiny legs on the front.

(21:40):
And these nymphs will go up tothe aphids and just start
chowing down. And their tinylittle nymphs and like big ass
aphids, and they just unhingetheir jaws, and they're just
like no home and it just startinhaling these aphids, one after
another after another. And itwas so cool to watch. And within

(22:04):
like days, the aphids weredecimated, no aphids remained on
the plants. And I was like,wait, this is the coolest thing
ever. And that was like three orfour years ago. And ever since I
see the aphids, and I wait forthe ladybugs. And sure enough,
The LadyBugs arrive and theleaves get you know, I look at

(22:26):
the leaves and I find the eggs,I find the nymphs and the aphids
disappear. And it's really likejust fun and cool to watch. I
feel like a little kid. Andyeah, it was like this big
turning point for me of like,oh, they're like bad bugs and
good bugs. And there's a wholething and we're really
supporting the ecosystem, we'reprobably attracting the good

(22:48):
bugs. And so often the good bugscan kind of take care of the bad
bugs, and kind of set me off onthis course of being more and
more interested in a more likeholistic approach to looking at
our garden and, you know, bugsplaying one role of the many,
many, many processes that areall taking place simultaneously

(23:10):
in the garden.

Gabe Long (23:12):
Yeah, I would say maybe just one, like reframing
or something that I would thinkabout slightly differently is
rather than sort of good bugsand bad bugs, maybe it's like
destructive bugs and nondestructive bugs. Right?

Rebecca (23:26):
Yeah, like like tests versus, versus, you know,
pollinator pollinators that arehelpful between

Gabe Long (23:34):
them, because I'm leading to the kind of idea that
like, doing research on this,trying to have a garden that is
sort of organic, and yeah,chemical free, and whatever. A
lot of what I have come acrossis this idea that, as you see
with the aphids, and theladybugs, there's this kind of

(23:56):
whole circle of life, circle ofbirth and predation and whatever
that is happening. And if yousupport it in its totality, if
you say like alright, all, youknow, come on in bugs, there's
not going to be insecticide herethat we're not going to, you
know, sort of do these likecarpet bombing things, then,

(24:19):
often the problem will take careof itself and you won't get a
population of a singledestructive bug that's way out
of control, you'll get, youknow, things will kind of reach
a balance, as opposed to whenyou do these big chemical
interventions, you often wind upwith some destructive bug that
is immune to that intervention.
Or you know, you've Okay, youyou know, got rid of your

(24:43):
aphids, but you also got rid ofall your pollinators or you
know, you you've kind of messedwith this like, very complex
miniature ecosystem in a waythat is ultimately not helpful,
even taking out of it any sortof ecological questions. have
like your larger impact? And areyou doing something good or bad?
Even just based on like, are yougoing to get a lot of aphids or

(25:05):
not on your kale, you'reprobably not going to wind up
with a positive result justbecause there's no way for you
to interfere in a way that is sotargeted that you're just going
to get rid of one thing.

Rebecca (25:18):
And exactly on that topic, some people are like, Oh,
I have effects, I should buy ahuge amount of ladybugs from the
internet. You can do that. Butum, ladybugs travel pretty fast,
pretty far. And what's going tohappen is they're all going to
just scatter to the wind and flyaway. And you might get a few on

(25:38):
your plants. But it's not reallywhat I've read over and over
from all the experts is thatit's not worth doing because you
might be introducing a type ofneat Ladybug that is not native
to your particular environment,which might not be helpful. And
they're just not going toprobably make a dent. They're
going to just fly off and youwill have wasted your money.

(26:00):
Yeah, I just looked and theUniversity of Kentucky Extension
Service reports that a singleLadybug will eat 5000 aphids
during its lifetime. And thatone Ladybug nymph will eat about
400 aphids in the three weeksbefore it pupates.

Gabe Long (26:19):
That's a lot of aphids.

Rebecca (26:20):
Yeah. And when they hatch, you're getting like
dozens of the little nipsometimes Yeah. So that's, you
do the math, you do the

Unknown (26:29):
aphids.

Gabe Long (26:30):
I guess the other thing that I would say is that I
feel like I'm really harping onthe sort of complexity of nature
here. But, you know, you takesomething like ants and you're
like, Okay, well, we've got allthese ants like around our
foundation or whatever, like wholikes and nobody likes ants,
what the fuck are they doing?
And then come to learn. And soI'm learning this as a very
amateur, but I feel like evenscientists, entomologists are,

(26:51):
you know, endlessly learning newthings about plant bug
relationships. So come to findout that Trillium, which we just
bought, and it's like awonderful plant. That seed is
spread by ants. The Trilliumplant creates a seed that is
attached to this little highcalorie ant food bite. The ants
go into Trillium, they grab thefood, they take it back to their

(27:16):
nest, which is of course in alittle tunnel underground
somewhere, eat their little highcalorie by leave the seed buried
in a perfect place for theTrillium for the Trillium seed
to root and grow. And you know,so you might think, like, Oh,
well, the ants, like they'reannoying. Let's get rid of the
answer your Trillium stock gonnaspread.

Rebecca (27:36):
And Trillium is like a prized by native and booziest
kind of plant. It's pretty hardto propagate. It can take up to
seven, maybe more seven years orso. For to go from seed to
flowering plants. So we love theants for doing this with the

(27:57):
Trillium like it's true all thepeople like

Gabe Long (28:00):
the Trillium Oh, the answer doing what propagators
struggle to do, you know, like,there's this kind of any
interferences that we make inthe cycle of things should be
very like pro buck, as opposedto anti bug,

Rebecca (28:14):
right? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Gabe Long (28:16):
So something like having the honeysuckle near your
vegetable garden as we just kindof lucked into doing. The honey
suckle starts blooming prettyearly in the season. So the
aphids come, The LadyBugs comewhen the greens and other things
are coming into their own.
There's already this populationof aphids and ladybugs that's
relatively balanced. So it's notlike as soon as the vegetables

(28:38):
are coming up, there's thesudden invasion of aphids.
People in the agricultural worldwould call it trap cropping
where you have a crop thatpurposefully is attracting
certain bugs and kind ofcreating this balanced
population of pest and predatorso that that's sort of their pre

(28:58):
existing and you're not likesacrificing your first crop
while waiting for your predatorsto come. Yeah, okay. You I know
what time googling.

Rebecca (29:10):
No, we're not supposed to be experts.

Gabe Long (29:12):
Well, not? Definitely not.

Rebecca (29:17):
Thank you so much for listening to leafing out. It's
been a pleasure talking aboutgardening. We hope you like it.
And good. Can people get intouch with us to ask us
questions?

Gabe Long (29:29):
If you have a question that you want answered
on the podcast, we would love itif you emailed us. You can just
email us a regular email, buteven better would be a voice
memo. It's leafing [e-mail]. You can also
follow us on Instagram atleafing out pod we try to post a
fair number of photos of thegarden so you have some visual

(29:50):
reference for what we're talkingabout. Also Also, if you like
the show, you can review it onApple podcast that helps other
people find Find us.