Can Restomod Culture Go Mainstream?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ernest (00:03):
Hello and welcome to Learn Make Learn where we share
qualitative and quantitativeperspectives on products to help
you make better.
My name is Ernest Kim, and I'mjoined by my friend and co-host,
Joachim Groeger.
Hey Joachim, how's it going?

Joachim (00:19):
Pretty good.
It snowed.
I'm still like, what's going on?
Um, it's cold up here inSeattle.
I mean, you know, not as cold asother places, obviously.
But when you're out and aboutand all of a sudden it starts
snowing, it's, it's kind ofunusual.
So, yeah, we're just trying tokeep warm over here.
How about you guys?

Ernest (00:38):
No, it's the same.
It actually snowed, these pastcouple of days at our house as
well, is pretty unusual for thistime of year.
We have it easier than a lot ofother places, but I am, I agree,
really ready for this, cold togo away.
Ready.
pretty, it just feels like it'slasted a bit longer this year.

Joachim (00:59):
It is March already, and it's still not sure about,
nature is not ready for springyet, so yeah.

Ernest (01:08):
All right.
Well, this is episode 10 andtoday topic is can restomod
culture go mainstream?
We'll dive into this in greaterdetail in just a minute,
including an explanation of whata restomod is for anyone who
isn't familiar with the concept.
But let's start with a follow upto our previous episode, CarPlay

(01:28):
or the Highway.
And here, I just wanted to notethat, I think just a couple of
days after we recorded brokethat Apple had canceled their
internal car project.
It was known as, project Titan.
and we thought this was worthsharing, um,, just because it
has potential implications tothat topic of, uh,, in car

(01:51):
infotainment systems.
And we'll share a link to, therewas a lot of reporting around
this.
I'll share a link in the shownotes to, an article from the
New York Times because it, itincluded some details that I
didn't see included in a lot ofthe other coverage.
Uh,, this was a piece titledBehind Apple's Doomed Car
Project, false Starts and WrongTurns.

(02:13):
For the benefit of any of anyonewho hasn't had a chance to, you
know, read up on this.
I'll read some snippets from thearticle and then, we can dive
into this a little bit as well.
So the article noted that, forthe last decade, many Apple
employees working on thecompany's secretive car project
internally, code named Titan aless flattering name for it, the

(02:33):
Titanic disaster they knew theproject was likely to fail.
And by the time of its death,which was, uh,, Tuesday,
February 27th, when executivesannounced internally that the
project was being killed andthat many members of the team
were being reassigned to work onartificial intelligence, apple
had burned more than$10 billionon the project according to this

(02:56):
reporting.
the story goes on.
At the start of this year,Apple's leadership decided that
it was a better use of thecompany's time to work on
generative AI rather than thecar.
the company told employees.
In that internal meeting,company said some members of
Project Titan would bereassigned to work on artificial
intelligence.

(03:16):
interviews on Wednesday with theNew York Times, people who
worked on the project praisedthe decision to shutter it,
saying The technology behindgenerative AI could be
invaluable to the future of thecompany's all important iPhone
business.
So that was the Times articleand it, I thought it was
interesting because thispositive sentiment was echoed by
Kay Venkatesh Prasad, the VicePresident, or, I'm sorry, senior

(03:39):
Vice President and ChiefInnovation Officer at the Center
for Automotive Research.
He was quoted in a wired articleabout this whole going on of
Apple ending and its EV program.
So that article in Wired, andwe'll provide a link to that one
as well.
That article ended with Prasadsaying clearly for Apple, this
is not the end.
This is just the beginning ofthe game.

(04:01):
is a very exciting reset in somany ways.
Unquote.
And the suggestion of the piecewas that Apple, you know, with
its car program now shelved,would focus much more of its
efforts on CarPlay, which wediscussed in last week's
episode.
And with Apple no longerdeveloping their own car and no
longer being a competitor,perhaps other automakers also be

(04:24):
more open to partnering withApple on their in-car systems.
So, definitely an interestingdevelopment that has relevance
to, the topic that we talkedabout last week.
But I was just curious if youhad any thoughts on this,
Joachim, if you had beentracking this at all.

Joachim (04:38):
I mean it had always been humming in the background
that Apple was working on this.
and I treated it the same way Iwas, I heard when, when I heard
that Sony was working on anelectric car as well, I said,
that sounds cool maybe for theshareholders, but, what does the
reality of this actually looklike and how does this, how does
this make sense?
So I treated it as a, acuriosity similar to when Uber

(05:04):
would say they're gonna makeflying cars or something like
that.
It, it just didn't seem like ameaningful thing, but given that
they've spent$10 billion,clearly they thought they were,
this was a serious thing to do.
The piece that I findinteresting is that they were
treating this very physicalthing.
That has to navigate thephysical world for real and
interacts with the physicalworld in a very real and

(05:25):
dangerous way that they weretreating it like a software
product.
You know, there's, they can grabpeople from the team and just
move them over to generative ai.
I'm not saying that softwareengineering is not a generic
skill and transferable, right.
It totally is.
But there's something about the,a question of what was the
philosophy going into thisproject that they were bringing?
And, and last episode I wastalking about the idea that

(05:48):
electric cars are treated asbatteries with software or
batteries with wheels andsoftware that doesn't feel
right.
And I don't think it's, it's agood way to think about what an
electric car is.
I think it's completely naive.
I found that tidbit quiteinteresting, that they were able
to just grab those resources andjust point them in a new
direction I don't know if it's areal loss to be honest.

Ernest (06:08):
right.

Joachim (06:09):
I don't know.
Cars are very big and veryphysical, and they do give you
an emotional response.
This sounds very wishy-washy,but it's true.
They're, they're very physicalproducts that make you feel
things.
There is a reason why FormulaOne is such a huge sport, and
people assume that bringingapple's design language to bear
on a car would be something verydesirable.

(06:31):
And I feel like that what wouldhappen is that the car would
just look like a really fancysteam iron or something.
I see lucid driving around,which are incredibly expensive
cars and they're very, veryimpressively engineered.
But to me they just look like areally well-designed coffee
machine.
They,, they don't have the sameevocative power of cars of the

(06:52):
past.
Maybe I'm just showing my age,but there's a piece of me that
just thinks something that'ssmooth and sleek and cuts
through the air is very cool foraerodynamics.
But, you know, formula One carslook kind of cool and they're
also very aerodynamicallyefficient and so are Le Mans
cars and so on.
So, I don't know.
Part of me is wondering, wouldthat have been a match made in
heaven having smooth surfaces ona vehicle?

(07:13):
I don't know.
Maybe it needs a little bit morehumanity in it.

Ernest (07:17):
Yeah, I agree.
And I, I share your sentiment aswell in that.
The hope I have in this news isthat it marks the end of this
chapter, just as you said, thischapter where people were
thinking of cars as justbatteries on wheels with
software and this sort of goldrush that was predicated on the

(07:38):
assumption that self-driving wasright around the corner and full
autonomy was right, right aroundthe corner.
it, I, It feels like people arefinally coming to grips with
that not being the case and-recognizing that, there are
aspects to this that are reallycomplicated and than just the
software.

(08:00):
So I, my hope is that.
Because of this recognition,we'll get to people in the car
space, you know, doing what theydo best people in the software,
doing what they do best.
And, we'll get, a richerevolution of the automobile than
we, what we've been seeing inthe past few years, which is
exactly as you've said, justthese sort of of soap.

(08:22):
Shaped blobs rolling around thatall just kind of look the same.
Um, well, definitely interestingtimes in the automotive space
and that actually does bring usto our main topic for today,
which is can restomod culture gomainstream?
And that's because restomodsalso have the roots in the car
world.

(08:42):
As we'll discuss in just aminute, we think that the.
may have a potential toinfluence products beyond the
automotive sector as well.
Alright, so what is a restomod?
I can't say I'm an expert on thetopic.
So I'm gonna lean on theexpertise of someone who is a
person named Tolu Akinshete.
I hope I'm pronouncing his namecorrectly.

(09:03):
he's a writer at supercars.netand in a piece titled restomod
Culture is just getting startedand finally going mainstream.
He explains that.
Quote, understand restomods, youneed to understand that the
fifties automotive scene spawntwo primary forms of car
enthusiasts.
On the one hand, you had thecollectors mainly after cars

(09:25):
that could be shown off at carshows the so-called Garage
Queens.
people cared less aboutperformance attributes as the
vehicles did not get drivenaround much.
So you could kind of call thesefolks the restorers.
The second group were the hotrods adrenaline junkies who
craved more from their cars inthe form of engine power,
improved brakes and othercomponents that significantly

(09:46):
elevated the driving experience.
You could call, you could callthem the modders.
It didn't take long for a thirdgroup to emerge.
Those interested in both the carstyling and performance, their
cars not only got to retaintheir original designs, but also
received the latest brakes,engines and other mechanical
parts for better performance andsafety, unquote.

(10:10):
So as Akinshete explains, thekey point here is that a
restomod retains the timelessdesign elements of the original
classic car on which it's basedaround the modern framework that
boasts improvements to safety,handling and comfort.
So the mod in restomod speaksnot only to modifications, but
also to modernization.

(10:31):
As Akinshete notes, restomodretain the visual impact missing
from Many of today'sautomobiles, just to your point,
while still allowing owners todrive a classic that's practical
and reliable.
Now, Akinshete does acknowledgethat, quote, there are those
within the car community thatkick against this idea who

(10:51):
believe that classic cars shouldbe left in their original state,
unquote.
So, before we get into ourbroader conversation about
restomods, I was just curious,Joachim, what camp do you fall
into here?
Are you a restoration purist,who believes classic cars should
be preserved in their originalstate?
Or are you a fan of restomods?

Joachim (11:11):
If you'd asked the younger version of me, I
probably would've been a puristand said, this is the way it was
meant to be and it should staythat way.
And as I got older.
I'm starting to appreciatepatina and the natural aging of
these products.
I think a critical moment for mewas actually in Seattle.

(11:32):
I was walking past an old 911T.
And it was an absolutelyatrocious shape.
It's white, the door is red, itwas replaced, the wheels don't
match.
And he drove it in that stateand loved it in that state.
And it's still in that state andit is uniquely beautiful to me.

(11:55):
Now, there's something about it.
It shows.
That it has gone through things,it has experienced things.
you get very romantic.
It sounds really silly, doesn'tit, to talk so romantically
about a hunk of metal.
But, there is something about itthat, that it has just, it's
seen stuff, you know?
So that opened up my eyes to thepossibility that something does

(12:15):
not need to be in its pristinestate to still be beautiful.
Things can change and thingsshould be allowed to change.
And sometimes you can help thatchange along by actually
stepping in and modifying them.
So I feel a lot more motivatedabout restomods being the way to
go for all cars, because youwant them to be practical but

(12:37):
still.
Live, live longer, you know?
And if this extends the life ofthese cars and allows people to
see them on the road and beexperienced on the road, albeit
in slightly modified form, Ithink it's valuable.
It doesn't have to be treatedwith such conservative esteem.
it can be allowed to evolve.

(12:57):
I think conservatism andnostalgia are very dangerous
things to hold onto politicallyas well.
I think always looking to thepast to find inspiration for
today is a dead end andinnovation and design, and also
the way we design our societies.
So I, I have to be very clear, Ihave a strong bias against
nostalgia.
I like the idea that the car hasaged.
It is it, it's showing that ithas been through things.

(13:19):
It is not a brand new car.
I think that patina and agingand restoration and modification
should go hand in hand.
I have a couple of companiesthat I like that are doing a
really good job.
And full disclosure, I am namingEuropean companies in this.
I think that's really importantin this discussion because
Europe still has very stringentrules around what cars are

(13:40):
allowed to be on the road.
Now, classic cars are a littlebit of an exception to that, but
I think they still do have topass certain tests that in the
states are not necessary.
So in America, you can reallymodify your car, and it wouldn't
be a problem In Germany, forexample, a country that I know,
or England, a country that Iknow very well, your car has to
go through an annual carinspection for safety reasons

(14:02):
and if you modify it, you putlights in spots where they
shouldn't be.
For example, if you try to putLEDs to light up a logo, I mean
you will fail your vehicleinspection.
So I believe with that high bar,having people being able to run
a business successfully torestore and modify cars is a,

(14:22):
that's, that shows you the totalviability of this way of doing
business.
I think it's a really big deal.
So there are two companies thatI wanted to highlight.
I think charge cars is one ofthem.
'cause they're totally, I mean,there's no respect for the
vehicle.
They're turning classic cars,classic muscle cars into
electric cars.
And one of their big cars was a,sixties Mustang that they

(14:44):
stripped down to bare metal andessentially nothing is left of
that car other than its exteriorand it's totally electrified.
So a fantastic piece of work andallows this car to live a, a
totally different lifeseparately from where it was.
So I find that very inspiring.
And then a small German companycalled Fine 11 is one of my

(15:04):
favorite partial restorers fine.
11 being a little play on nine11.
They also do pure restorations,but they also have their
signature line, which is wherethey do restorations and
modifications.
And that's where you can say,I'd like to have ABS, I would
like to have power steering, andthey're able to get that car on
the road and pass whatevervehicle inspection is necessary

(15:25):
in Germany.
I assume it's so stringentbecause Germans, I'm allowed to
say this as half German.
I understand the, the need tocertify and test and all of
those things.
I get it.
They like their paperwork, so Ican imagine that they're doing
this to a high standard.
I, I raised that one as a greatexample of it is possible to run
a business that can adhere tosafety standards and get old

(15:47):
cars running on the road sofine.
11 is my other submission forthat.
You put me on the spot on this.
I'm gonna put you on the spot.
Where do you fall on this?
We, we, we set this topic up,but we didn't discuss with each
other, where are we on thespectrum on this?
So now I want to know where youare.

Ernest (16:01):
Right.
No, I first, I just love thatsentiment you shared around your
bias against nostalgia.
I think fantastic.
should make that a t-shirt, Ihad a, a similar journey here
actually in that when I wasyounger, I would say that I was
much more on the restorationside of things of saying we
should keep these thingspristine.

(16:21):
but now I am very much in therestomod camp.
And in my case, I think it'smore just a, function of, as
I've gotten older, I've becomeless dogmatic.
and, and maybe it's partly I amin, get to a position where
maybe I might actually, purchaseone of these things, the

(16:45):
practical considerations startto become more important than
just whether it's Absolutelyexactly, it was when it came off
the line.
so yeah, I'm definitely in the,the restomod camp and I'm also a
big fan of the EV basedrestomods.

(17:07):
the funny thing though is that Iwas introduced to the concept
through, Porsche as well,specifically through Singer
Vehicle Design.
uh, well-known customizer, Ithink they're down in
California, make beautiful, asinger reimagined kind of
rethought versions of the nine11.
I, I actually know two peoplewho have owned singer, nine

(17:31):
elevens, funnily enough, theyboth said they were.
They really, um,, didn't likethem very much.

Joachim (17:39):
Oh wow.

Ernest (17:40):
constantly having to go back to the shop.
So, it wasn't a great experiencefor them, but they, they look
incredible.
another one.
That I've seen recently was,something created by a team a
company outside out of the uk,where they offer a drop in ev
conversion kit for the classicmini.

(18:03):
And it's a company, oh gosh, I'mtrying to remember the name of
this company, but we'llcertainly include a link to them
in the show notes, but they havea history of making ev
conversions for Land Rovers.
so, they have experience in thisand they've developed this, what
they call a cassette that's, uh,the motor as well as the battery
combined.

(18:23):
And, and it just sits right intowhere the engine would sit in
the classic mini, and it givesyou a car that I think does
about 80 miles on a charge,which, you know, for a city car
is, is great.

Joachim (18:35):
Yeah.

Ernest (18:36):
so, man, what a hoot that would be to have a, an
original or classic mini, um,with a electric motor in it.
as I understand it, it's about,15,000 pounds in, money or.
I think translates now to about19, 19,000 US dollars.
but you do have to supply thecar yourself and, whether you do

(18:56):
the work or someone else doesit, you have to the wrenching
yourself as well.
So, the accessible side ofthings.
But still, when you factor inthe need to supply the car, not
necessarily the cheapest.
The thing that I, if money wereno object, what I absolutely
love is something, created bythis I think they're an Italian
company called Totem Automobile,and they do a restomod of the,

(19:19):
classic Alfa Romeo, Giulia, intoa completely modernized, 500
plus horsepower ev and oh, itjust looks so amazing.
And, and, and in my case it'snot.
It's less about.
Nostalgia in that, that wasn't acar I, you know, lusted after as
a kid, but it's more to yourearlier point of today, just

(19:44):
look so blah, in so many cases.
and, that is something that justcaptures emotion in physical
form, like so few cars today do,I'm guessing there's many
reasons for that.
There's, you know, aerodynamicreasons, probably safety reasons
as well.
and it may be that theserestomods get around some of

(20:05):
those, at least the safety.

Joachim (20:07):
Yeah, I assume

Ernest (20:08):
Yeah.
But oh my goodness, I think theycapture something there that I
would love to see, more carmakers try to tap into, moving
forward.
And we'll provide links to allthis stuff there too.
Unfortunately, that one, AlRomeo GT Electric is I think
around$500,000 us.
So definitely not something I'llbe anytime soon.

Joachim (20:33):
I saw that one as well.
There's something about thatGiulia GT shape is just
something very special about it.
I would love to see cardesigners bring some of that to
now you mentioned the mini, Ithink the mini is a great
example of a car that wasbrought to the present day,
quite skillfully by FrankStevens, who has a great YouTube

(20:54):
channel, which I, we should addthe links.
And he worked at BMW.
He's responsible for the X5, andthe mini.
And he describes the thoughtprocess that went into the mini
that I find is fascinating.
He, he wanted it to have alittle bulldog shape the face,
which I love.
I, I love these little, thepersonality of the car coming
through like that.
So that car is a little bit, youcould argue it is nostalgic, but

(21:18):
it is a.
It is a re-imagining'cause whenyou put the two side by side, it
really does not feel the same.
We've been talking aboutPorsches nine elevens continue
to be some version of a restomod to a certain extent, right?
They're always adapting to thenew safety, the safety bars that
are being set.
But they are still an echo ofthe old cars over and over
again.
Yeah, that's very interesting.

Ernest (21:39):
Well, so we're both fans of restomods when it comes to
cars, but like we mentionedearlier, now we wanna dig into,
you know, could this go beyondthe automotive space?
Joachim, I was just curious tohear what you think, like, do
you see ways that this conceptof restomods could be applied
more broadly?

Joachim (21:59):
Yeah.
When I was thinking aboutrestomods in general, my mind
went to two places.
One very, very.
Broad philosophical space that Iwanted to start off with, but
then slightly unrelated, somevery specific examples of where
I've seen people take thatphilosophy and extend the life
of a product.
But the first couple of highlevel philosophical ideas that I

(22:24):
had in mind relate to, desirepaths.
If you're in a park, you willnotice that there is a path that
someone has laid out anddesigned.
but then you'll always noticesomewhere in the grass, a a
track where someone has justwalked over and over again and
there's just a dirt path thathas formed because that's where
people want to go, and that'sthe path that they want to take.

(22:46):
And hence it's a desire path.
It's a reflection of what thecrowd.
Thinks the path should be andnature is compliant enough and
people can take that path.
So what's interesting about thedesire path is it's telling the
designers, well done guys.
You've put the park here,everyone wants to be here
clearly.

(23:08):
But some ideas here aren't quiteright.
And we have a way as humanbeings by trampling on these
soft areas, we can say, actuallythe path should be over here.
So there, there are tworesponses.
One is cover that up again andforce people back on the path
that you intended for them.
And the other one is to embracethat path and actually to make
that an, an extension of theexisting path So the reason I

(23:30):
mentioned Desire paths is youcould rotate the idea of a
restomod you could say actually.
A restomod is acknowledging thatthere is beauty in this original
design, but it doesn't quite doit for me.
There are some things I need tochange either because time has
moved on, safety has moved on,and our needs have moved on.

(23:52):
And in most physical products,there's no way to plow a desire
path.
It's very difficult.
Funnily enough, you can actuallysee it in technology.
When you look at the early daysof Twitter, if anyone remembers
those days, you know, 16 yearsago.
The idea was just amicroblogging platform, and then
people developed this set ofrules that you could follow to

(24:14):
make it usable.
The hashtag was one of them thatemerged from the community
saying, well, we need a way toidentify topics here, so I'll
put a hashtag on it.
And then Twitter said, there's adesire path.
Let's, let's integrate that intothe system.
So desire, paths and resting, Ifeel are kind of the same idea
that someone is saying, this isa great thing, but here are the

(24:34):
modifications I'd like to add tomake this a workable thing.
And then again, there are tworesponses.
Ignore it.
Or build it into your productitself.
So take on the feedback from thecommunity and then actually
learn from the modern communitywhat you want.
So that's kind of my firstphilosophical statement, to get
to something very concrete whereI've seen resting happen in

(24:57):
physical things.
there are two specific examplesthat I kind of like.
One is a very direct restomodeling thing, which is a
company called EOE Works.
And this was a college studenttrying to make ends meet and he
was buying broken iPods on eBayfor a couple of dollars.
And opened them up.
Thankfully you could still dothat.

(25:17):
And he was able to replace thehard drives with solid state
drives and, replace some of thescreens as well so they're
better screens and clean them upand, and get them working in,
in, in good working order.
People are buying these things,and they're not obscenely
priced, but they're alsoexpensive given the fact that
you already have a device thathandles all this stuff.
But for a lot of people having afocused product that is just a

(25:40):
single function, is very, veryvaluable.
So I found that a really, reallyinteresting example.
It's a pretty modernishtechnology that is locked down
by Apple for so many years, andsomehow someone with some
dedication was able to pry itopen, literally physically
update things.
And it's somewhat nostalgic, butalso the interesting thing is
the nostalgia here is fulfillingthis.

(26:03):
Need for focus.
Someone wants to just enjoymusic and they don't wanna be
distracted by notifications andthings like that.
And they want to have adedicated music playing device
that they can carry with them,and that will work when they go
in the subway and has noconnectivity and so on.
So that was one that I wanted tohighlight.
Then the other thing that I justwanted to say briefly is, this,

(26:24):
these underground movements thatI really appreciate and one of
them is the floppy disc musicscene that I just learned about
a couple of days ago.
there are people that arerecording music that fits on,
well, an old floppy disc thatcan hold what, like a, a 1.4
megabytes of information.
So they put an MP three on thereand most songs can only be a
minute long.

(26:46):
And I really love that that's anold technology being completely.
Brought into our modern age,there's no need for it to exist.
There's no need to do this yet.
It is so compelling.
There's something physical andreal that people, wanna feel
connected to, I think.
It's the.
Eighties, nineties version ofvinyl I guess.

(27:07):
Right?
So, so I put those out there,Ernest, and see where the
discussion goes.
So the desire pass idea, thesetwo things that I think quite
interesting, as examples ofwhere you can see this resto mod
culture taking hold.
and I've not seen someone lookat that culture and try and pull
it back into the product.
I think that's where theopportunity is, how that
happens.

(27:28):
Maybe we'll figure it out inthis conversation.
I dunno.

Ernest (27:31):
Those are both great.
I, um, I love that desire pathconcept that, you know, someone
who worked in user experiencedesign that picture, would get
shared around all the time.
and I think it's a reallypowerful example.
What I always struggle with is,a designer, what are the

(27:52):
instances where you want to goagainst that?
I think it'd be easy to say, ohyeah, universally should always
Allow for that desire, path Butone example was, when were
designing the facility forPixar, they were, building a new
headquarters.
They intentionally designed itto maximize physical

(28:16):
interaction, which meant that itwasn't as efficient as it could
have been.
So you imagine if, if theinterior of the building had a
lot of grass on it, you would'veseen a lot of these desire paths
expressed because the built inways to get around weren't, the
most efficient, but weredesigned with the intention of,

(28:38):
provoking these kind of physicalcollisions between people so
that would get this sharing ofideas., and so that sort of goes
against that idea of yournatural desire path because you
have this greater end thatyou're trying to enable.
And something that I oftenstruggle with when I was working

(28:58):
in experience design.
When are those instances whereyou want to deviate from that
kind of natural desire paththat's being expressed?
but I was curious if you had anythoughts on that, if you've
encountered that, and if there'sinstances where you think you'd
want to go against that naturaldesire path.

Joachim (29:18):
The concern is that you might be going towards the
lowest common denominator,right?
That there is some sort ofinherent laziness that is being
expressed here and in the parksetting, that's exactly it.
It's usually a shortcut tosomething that you want.
if a desire path shows yousomething that you didn't
realize your product was capableof doing, that is something that
you need to take on board.

(29:38):
I think somewhere in thehardware world there has to be
some version of what a desirepath looks like.
so for example, I would like tohave the case on my phone be off
because I would like the case toget nicked and bashed around a
bit to get some patina on it.
But I'm so worried that I'mgonna smash the screen at the
same time and I'm going todamage the camera Does that mean

(29:59):
I should have a robust phonethat I don't need a case for
that ages well, it's not clearto me.
If some desire path as a, awidening of interactivity, a
widening of communicationpathways.
that's probably something totake on board.
If it's just lowest commondenominator and you're trying to
find a shortcut to get tosomething that comes into the

(30:20):
camp of friction, and I agreewith you, an sometimes you do
need to introduce friction toget something more powerful out
of that interaction.
Smooth sailing for everythingdoesn't lead to interesting
outcomes all the time.
And so maybe a desire path thatis avoiding friction is one to
be treated with some suspicion,a desire path that opens up

(30:43):
higher fidelity, interactivity,more communication.
Or connection for the personwith a product, maybe that's
something to hold onto.
know.
How do, how do those sit withyou, Ernest?
This, this is very freewheelingright now, but is there
something in that that you canlatch onto or, or

Ernest (31:01):
no, absolutely because it feels, like if it's opening
up additional opportunity that Ithink is naturally gonna be
exciting.
if you see a desire path that ismore about creating opportunity
space that seems like somethingthat you can feel pretty
confident is gonna be promisingversus something that's actually

(31:22):
more about reducing choice justpurely about reducing friction,
maybe look a little bit moreclosely at that.
I think that makes a lot ofsense.
just trying to think how wouldthat apply to that, classic
example of the path in the park,'cause that is purely that
reducing friction example.
It's kind of the intent that youwere talking about as well, the

(31:42):
underlying intent.
Why was the path designed thatway in the first place?
Was it just because, you know,just because we like grids and
so someone designed the grid,and if that's the case, then I
feel like, hey, yeah, we shouldallow people to move the way
they want to.
But if there is some largerpurpose as in that Pixar
example, then you know, I thinkyou can start to weigh the costs

(32:04):
and benefits to that and decideif it's worth it for you in, in
the case of whatever it isyou're trying to design.

Joachim (32:12):
Actually interesting now that you mentioned that
Pixar example, again, thebuilding itself is not to blame
and the architect's not toblame.
The desire path is maybe tellingyou something that has nothing
to do with the design of thebuilding.
It's telling you something aboutthe design of the organization
potentially.
Because if the organization isso into the serendipitous

(32:36):
moments, then there should betime to walk.
Through the buildinginefficiently and everyone is
inefficiently navigating thespace and they're bumping into
each other and projects getstarted.
The fact, that's not happening,the desire path is I need to get
to there now that is telling yousomething.

(32:56):
that the intent of what thearchitects were trying to
execute on is not the intent ofthe organization.
So that's also interesting,right?
The desire path could be tellingyou something that's totally,
tangential to your task, soyeah, that's, it's a tricky one,
a desire path is interestingbecause it isn't just a cheap
opinion, it is actually anaction that you're taking for

(33:17):
yourself.
So it, does need to be a signalthat you take seriously.
You know, as an economist, I'malways very wary of looking at
surveys because cheap talk iseverywhere.
You can just say whatever youwanna say, the proof is in the
behavior.
And so I would take veryseriously a behavioral signal
you can't make the inferencethat you wanted to make off it.
It might be uncomfortable, butpotentially still valuable as as

(33:39):
a signal.

Ernest (33:40):
You know what's interesting too is I think this
touches on some of the othertopics we've talked about
recently in that it's an exampleof encoding something in the
physical environment so that itreally becomes a requirement.
You know, I think maybe therewas a recognition that, if we
wanted this outcome we have toencode it in the physical space

(34:06):
or else I.
You know, we can put all kindsof guidelines in place around,
you know, set meetings to startfive minutes after the hour, or,
you know, end five minutes blah,blah, blah.
And all those things are so easyto change, you know, as
leadership changes, as cultureschange.
But if you were to encoded intothe environment, you can't

(34:29):
change that.
And you've created this,attribute that's at going to
just by default be at the coreof your culture because of the
space, the physical constraintsyou've created, which is, I
think, you know, something youtalked about earlier too is one
of the great things aboutphysical embodiments is that

(34:50):
they do have this sort offorcing function.
You know, they're, they'rethere.
they have a rigidity, that Ithink can be really powerful.
and it's something that I thinkpeople don't think about.
You know, I think think lessabout now than we used to
because we've all become soenamored of digital things.

(35:12):
But, there is a to that, to thatphysicality and of, you know,
literally setting something instone, that can impact a whole
company's culture, in a waythat's more lasting than, you
know, whatever process of theweek.
We can keep talking about this,but I thought maybe could segue

(35:32):
into, know, we've given somemore abstract examples, I guess,
you know, like architecture and,the kind of desire path example.
Do you see examples?
You talked a little bit aboutthis, about the kind of the
person, repurposing old iPods,but do you see examples where
this restomod concept could bebrought to life for folks who

(35:55):
are, say, you know, makingproducts, on a day-to-day basis?

Joachim (36:00):
Funnily enough, it does go back to what we were touching
on last time, this notion ofright to repair modular product
design, resilient product designI feel like these are very
tightly connected ideas.
The thing to keep in mind, andthe only reason I think Resto
Moding really has any value isthe fact that it can extend the

(36:20):
life of a product It comes backto that iPod example.
That iPod is a high quality,high resolution screen.
Oh, oh, by the way, I didn'tmention they replaced the
batteries as well.
So the batteries are better.
The hard drives are solid state,so they don't scratch and they
don't break, and the screens arebetter and it just works without
any, any wifi.

(36:41):
So they're resilient from theground up.
And I think as a productdesigner, I really wish we had
more of that type of thinkingwhere people ask the simple
question, what happens when thecloud goes down on this thing
that can't connect?
Or what if we go out ofbusiness?
But we would still like to haveour product that we've invested
time and effort and expensiveresources into can exist without

(37:01):
us as an entity still existing.
What if we used our technologyto actually create products that
were intelligent, so forexample, many voice control home
pods from big tech companies areessentially.
They are small computers thatrun software.

(37:22):
They're a full computer inthere, but they're hobbled
because the way they'rearchitected is so that they are
only there to know one thing,which is either the wake up call
to them, hey, Siri, or any otherone that's out there, and then
after that it just pings aserver in the cloud.
And the reason why that'simportant is because when that

(37:44):
cloud goes down or your wifigoes down, that device has
absolutely no function anymore.
So I think about that in thisconversation of ODing because if
the device doesn't rely on wifiand the cloud, then it's.
A device that sits locally withyou, and that means it's
potentially modifiable by youand fixable by you.

(38:05):
You know, I think it's quitecritical that we start thinking
about the fact that ourtechnology is incredibly
powerful, but we've hobbled itbecause we keep relying on these
cloud solutions What about you,Anis?

Ernest (38:16):
I think it's definitely very, relevant what you're
saying.
I mean, I've had a experiencerecently where, I have a lot of,
apple Home Kit devices, in myhouse and, you know, kind of, a
few like smart home type thingsset up and so many
interdependencies.

(38:36):
That it can, when it works, itcan be magical, but when it
doesn't, it can be justcompletely infuriating because
there's no way to effectivelytroubleshoot what's happening.
like one example is the lightsin my garage we're not turning
on the motion sensor in thegarage was, activated, and after

(39:02):
like hours of troubleshooting, Ifinally figured out, I don't
even remember how I figured thisout, but that I had to reboot.,
one of the home pods in mybedroom because that was you
serving as the home kit hub forthe house.
You know, and there's nowherewhere it tells you that.
There's no way that, there arethese, cascade of dependencies.

(39:25):
And so it can create thisincredibly frustrating situation
and, can potentially lead you toreplace things when they don't
even need to be replaced becauseyou, you know, something appears
that it's not working, but it'sactually just because this
dependency that's been created.
so I absolutely share thatsentiment that it would, I

(39:45):
think, be very helpful fordesigners to think about these
dependencies that they'recreating.
and how challenging it couldmake it to enjoy the products.
kind of bringing it into thephysical world.
you've mentioned this, I thinkin the last episode too, this
class of products that we reallylike being watches.

(40:06):
I think one of the wonderfulthings about watches is that
designed to last, you know,that's a big part of their
appeal is that If you just applya modicum of of maintenance to
them, they'll last for decades,for generations, I think there's
also, this is getting a littlebit watch geeky, but in the
watch world there's this notionof in-house or manufacture

(40:29):
movements and it's kind of seenas a little bit of a point of
pride that you as a manufacturermake your own movements in
house.
There's also a class of kind ofoff the shelf movements made by,
historically company called ETAwould've been one, although now
they're not really making theirmovements available.
But ETA or, Selita, they'rethese companies that make
movements that are available tothird parties.

(40:50):
And I think that's a wonderfulconcept in the watch world, that
you have a lot of watches outthere that, that are based on
these off the shelf movements.
and so it makes it very easy torepair these watches even
decades later.
You know the point you made thatwhat if the company goes outta
business?
Even if that, individualwatchmaker goes out of business,

(41:11):
if it has an ETA movement in it,it's gonna be so easy to get
that repaired, decades from now.
So I think there's a beauty inthat.
and it kind of gets to the pointwe started with, when we talked
about CarPlay that it allows youas the watchmaker to focus on
different things.
You don't have to expend hugeamounts of energy on making your

(41:33):
own movement and thenmaintaining that as well over
time can just take this greatmovement that already works, and
then build all those otherthings around it that are gonna
really matter to your customer.
So I think the watch world is areally nice example of kind of a
category of products that hasthis resiliency built into it
and is being fundamentally builtaround this idea of longevity.

Joachim (41:56):
I was gonna say that the watch example is even more
useful to this conversationbecause you mentioned the fact
that watches are repairable Sowhen you open one of these
things up, it's, it's amechanical device.
Not you or I could fix one ofthese things.
It requires a specialist,someone who has trained in these

(42:17):
things.
and to a certain extent theyhave to be artisans.
The device can be.
Repairable, but it requires aspecialty skill.
And what we haven't had time tosee or even encourage to a
certain extent is the trainingof those artisans who would be
able to restore and modify morecomplex devices the iPod is a

(42:38):
great example.
Someone has had the time to sitdown and think about how could I
restore and modify one of thesedevices?
It's a desire path that I, Ithink, manufacturer themselves
should be looking at.
They should be askingthemselves, who's out there in
the modern community and shouldwe be providing them with
support and more tooling so theycan do this job?
It's continuing our legacy as abrand we don't need to do all of

(43:00):
the work ourselves, but maybe wejust build the infrastructure
that allows people to find eachother.
Then it becomes much more, acommunity marketplace where
people come together.
I think there's an interestingmodel of something that could
emerge, which is you don't needto necessarily have a global
restomodding manufacturing base,but maybe you just need an

(43:22):
engaged community of about ahundred people that you supply
and that you support.
They are authorized, they get alittle stamp of approval, they
have some training, theyunderstand things.
And you're now building withthose people in mind that down
the line, maybe a robot couldn'tdisassemble this device, but an
artisan could, a specialisttechnician could do it.

(43:43):
maybe that's more costly interms of time, but there's a
skill now and these people knowhow to repair these devices, da
da da da.
There's all these other benefitsthat come off that, that I think
is quite interesting.
So, maybe the watch world doeshave a little bit more to offer
here in terms of a model ofwhat, restoration and
modification skillset could looklike more

Ernest (44:01):
Right.
Right.
I'm really glad you mentionedthat.
'cause something I wanted to aswell, that opportunity.
And, we've talked about a lot ofproducts that are pretty high
end cars and but what'sheartened me is seeing the
growing interest in shoes thatcan be resoled.
You know, and they tend to be alittle bit on the higher end,

(44:24):
but not nearly as premium as saya, a fine watch or a, a, a car.
and that's, I think another, agreat example of kind of this
two-sided opportunity.
You're offering a product that'sgoing to last longer, have a
lower impact on the environment,but you're also then creating
this opportunity for a class ofpeople who are going to be able

(44:48):
to develop that expertise toservice that product over time.
I.
I think Vibram has been anincredible catalyst in this, in
that they really make thatmarket possible in that they
offer households that, you know,basically any cobbler.
maybe you might have to sign upto some program.

(45:09):
But basically, you know, it'svery easy to get access to these
replacement outsoles and, youknow, with some development of,
skill, you can, you know, learnhow to replace outsoles on any
kind of boot that, it wasdesigned around that.
So.
It's been great to see that'sbeen around for a long time, but

(45:32):
I think for quite a while it, ofgetting boots resold was kind
of, fell off people's radar,it's been great to see, that
it's becoming much more popularagain.
and I think Vibram deserves alot of credit for enabling that
because without someone makingthose outsoles, it would be very
difficult for that, that marketto exist.

(45:54):
so the fact that they'vecontinued to, to offer that as a
service, is great to see.
I, I was really amazed to see, Iwas just doing a little bit of
research for this episode and tothis group called Circular
Online, I think this was datedfrom 20 20 20 21, reported that
Nike sells 780 million pairs ofshoes a year.

(46:15):
I.
To the best of my knowledge,none of those shoes are
resolvable, which is, it's justincredible when you think about
that.
And then same with Aidas.
It's Nike's not the only onedoing this.
really all of these leading shoemakers are making shoes that are
designed to be disposable.
So.
To see a shift there, I thinkwould be really powerful.

(46:35):
And the great thing is that theknowhow exists.
you know, lot of shoemakers aredoing that.
Vibram makes it possible.
So that's something that, youknow, I think is a great model
at an accessible price point,you know, shows it doesn't have
to be a luxury product.
even down to, this little brandcalled Bedrock, they make
sandals and, they have, whatthey call a resold program as an

(47:00):
SOUL, but they'll resold yoursandals.
So even I think this, entryprice for their sandals are
about$115.
And it goes up from there.
But you, it's not a premium.
Super premium product, you canget those resold and they're not
doing it for free.
You know, this is a, you know,has to be sustainable for them
as well.
So it's, I think, 50,$55 to geta pair resold, that's, you know,

(47:24):
a lot less than a, a new pairand it's just a much lower
impact on the environment.
I think it, there's some goodsignals showing that you can do
this at AC price points.
And the other thing that has meexcited is that.
It seems like younger people arereally pulling this as well now,
you know, we, I think, livedthrough this period where we

(47:47):
just saw products as beingdisposable and we're totally
fine with that.
there was a study done by agroup called Thread Up just last
year and they found that 64% ofGen Z look for an item
secondhand before buying it new.
and that's up four percentagepoints from the last time they
did the study in 2021.
So think partly for just reasonsof need because of, inflation,

(48:11):
but also because of uh,, concernaround the environment.
is this growing desire haveproducts that are gonna last.
And, you know, knowing that youmight not be the only person who
owns that product over itslifetime.
Um, so I think there's a lot ofopportunities there.
And there's some.
Historical context here too.

(48:32):
I think, you know, particularly,think both of us have this
appreciation for Japan andJapanese culture, and there's
some practices there that arestarting to, to gain popularity.
Like, uh, I think it's sashikoyou know, it's just basically
mending of garments.
Um, but in a way that kind ofcreates embellishment, so.
You know, instead of trying tohide the men, really showing it

(48:55):
and making it part of the storyof that garment.
so that, you know, you can show,like you were saying, the patina
show, the patina of that garmentas it's aged.
Um, and, you know, as you'velived with it.
I think that's such a beautifulconcept that is starting to get,
um, uh, traction beyondJapanese, uh, apparel makers,

(49:18):
and then also Kintsugi, is thissimilar sort of idea, but in
this case for more like, uh,pottery or lacquer wear.
And again, the idea of nottrying to hide the men's, but
really celebrating them byusing, in the case of zuki,
either powdered gold or silveror platinum to highlight.
The areas where you've mendedthe product and giving it that,

(49:40):
you know, really beautifulpatina that again, tells the
story of that lifetime of thatproduct.
So I think there's some reallyinteresting concepts that, um,
you know, are out there thatpeople are tapping into or
gaining popularity.
You know, one last thing I'dmaybe mention here too, just in
the context of sustainability isI think we've.

(50:00):
You know, at the same time we'vehad this very disposable outlook
on product.
really focused on recyclabilityas and like, oh, we're using X
number of recycled water bottlesin this garment, or, know, blah,
blah, blah.
But I think we're seeing it'sbecoming clearer and clearer
that that can't, certainly can'tbe the only answer.

(50:23):
you know, for one, so much ofwhat goes into recycling streams
doesn't ever actually getrecycled.
But also there's just the hugeenergy use associated with that.
So, you know, there are some, Ithink, pretty interesting things
being done on the recyclablerecyclability side of things,
but, I personally think thatthere's so much more relevance

(50:49):
thinking about longevity, um,and it's kind of celebrating it
versus, um, running away fromit, which I think we have for
the past couple of decades.

Joachim (51:00):
I think that's a really good point about recyclability.
Recyclability is about basicallymaking a new product from old
stuff.
and it's very rare that.
A brand will say, actually,let's be very upfront about the
fact that this product isimperfect and is made of
recycled things.
And that's, that's why it looksthis way.

(51:21):
I feel like Nike did that verywell with, with some of the
recycled shoes that were quite,divisive in their design, but
very honest about where theywere coming from.
You could push that concept evenfurther, which is why I was so
happy that You mentioned Siggebecause it's such an old
fashioned technique, but as yousaid, it celebrates the repair.
We'll link to some pictures ofwhat Kintsugi looks like if,

(51:42):
people haven't seen it, butyou're doing it with gold and
silver, so if there's a crack inyour pottery, it's visible.
You're not trying to match whatwas there.
You're trying to very explicitlyhighlight that this thing has
been broken and it has beenrepaired beautifully, by an
artisan.
Again, highlighting the skillthat's necessary to be able to
reassemble this.

(52:03):
And it gets very philosophicalbecause I think you have to tap
into that more, emotional andemotive language to get people
to be motivated about thisstuff.
As you said, the energy requiredto recycle is crazy.
We're burning fossil fuels tomove the stuff to get it
recycled.
Back to the idea of we haven'teven started exploring what a
network of repairers andartisans working on these things

(52:25):
would look like.
maybe we're showing our coastalelite nonsense status here,
right?
Because we're both in thePacific Northwest.
But there is something aboutbeing able to go down the road
and say, could you please fixthis, and I'm okay with it not
being what it was before,because there is no way for it
to be that.
I, I, I think Japanese cultureis really happy to embrace that
notion that repairing is.

(52:46):
Maybe it starts with that,willing to embrace imperfection
like that.
But I think it's gonna beimposed on us sooner or later.
I don't think we're gonna havethe luxury of doing sooner.
And I suspect that we'll have toone way or another, extend the
lifetime of all of theseproducts, just by necessity.
And we will be kicking ourselveswhen we realize that there's no
way to just upgrade a memoryboard in that laptop one day.

(53:10):
As a product person, have it inyour mind that this is something
that needs to happen, but maybeyou have to empower the human
being that's able to manipulatethese objects in a way that
right now automation is notlending itself to it is maybe a
very.
Manual process of cracking openand delicately pulling things
apart and then repurposing them.

(53:31):
And that's maybe the startingpoint.
And we just have to be willingto embrace that quote unquote
inefficiency.
Siggy is totally inefficient,right?
I mean, why would you do that?
Why would you cobble this thingtogether again, makes no sense
in, in a, in a pure efficiencylens.
But I have a person here withskill that can fix this and

(53:51):
bring back this thing maybe.
And then it also, as withphysical objects, is imbued with
emotional memory.
You want it back in some form.
So I think maybe that is alsopart of it, that we have to be
willing to say that this is oneof those solutions that is not
quote unquote, scalable.
Maybe it, it just can't be.
but it's still necessary.
It's not something that weshouldn't be pursuing.

(54:12):
And then maybe after decades ofit, it'll be become scalable.
Who knows?

Ernest (54:15):
Well, kind of along along those lines, what I've
heard often in terms of pushbackon the business side this has
been most frequently, well, ifwe make it last longer than
gonna sell as many, because, youknow, people hold onto their
item X for longer.
first, I think in my experience,that's not really true, and

(54:37):
especially now with theexistence of these very
mainstream secondary markets forall kinds of products.
People have the opportunity tosell their existing goods so
that they can buy new versionsof those things.
So longevity isn't going to, atleast from my direct experience
that I've seen, isn't going toreduce your opportunity for

(55:00):
sales.
then on top of that, existenceof these secondary markets means
that you have an opportunity toparticipate in those markets as
well.
And you know, we see thathappening, for Rolex entering
the certified pre-owned space.
So you know, they're actuallyselling pre-owned Rolexes.
so you know, you can actuallybenefit from that, this kind of

(55:23):
growing interest in secondarysales of, used products.
and then there's also the otheropportunities, like you talked
about of, you know, maybetraining or offering components
for service.
You know, there's a lot of waysthat you can, I.
your business, um, around, uh,these sort of restomod concepts.

(55:45):
So I really think it's, um, notonly shortsighted, but just
wrong to think that building forlongevity is going to limit your
business opportunity.
Um, I think there's a lot ofexamples showing that actually
can, um, expand youropportunities, uh, as long as
you, you think about it in thatway.

(56:06):
on, on my end, I guess my, Idon't have a specific, you know,
heuristic in terms of how toapproach this, but I, I again,
kind of come back to rom's kindof 10 principles of good design
and, you know, it was just so,so thoughtful and so.
Uh, it just makes so much sense.

(56:26):
But, you know, amongst those 10,he says, you know, of course
good design is aesthetic, alsogood design makes a product
useful.
design is long lasting and gooddesign is environmentally
friendly.
Uh, and you know, he said thatquite a, quite a while ago.
So I think, you know, that's areally nice, simple checklist

(56:48):
you can apply.
Are we delivering on thosethings?
And to your point, I think a lotof the products we're surrounded
by days don't deliver on those,know, simple principles like,
you know, Apple's products,which are often celebrated as,
you know, beautiful design.
they're not very long lasting inmany ways not very

(57:08):
environmentally friendly.
and so I would love to see that,you know, they're starting to
embrace some repairability.
but., there's so much more Ithink they could do as leaders
in this space to, to reallyshift the thinking.
You've heard our perspectives onthis topic, of restomods and
whether they could bemainstream.

(57:30):
Are you a fan of the restomodconcept and do you think it has
applications beyond theautomotive space?
We'd really love to hear whatyou think.
So let us know atLearnMakeLearn@gmail.com.
Now moving on to ourrecommendations.
this is a bit of a build on whatyou said earlier, Joachim, about
your desire to kind of take thecase off your phone so that you

(57:52):
can it develop some patina.
Um, but I wanted to recommendactually a iPhone case, and I, a
few reasons I wanted torecommend this one that I, I
actually really like it, butalso I, you know, I recommended,
uh, last week a very expensivepiece of audio equipment.
So I thought, Hey, let'srecommend something that's just
a little bit more accessiblypriced, uh, as maybe not so

(58:12):
esoteric either.
And it's the Rhinoshield.
CrashGuard iPhone 15, pro Maxcase.
In my case, it's the iPhone 15Pro Max.
They make it for every versionof the iPhone.
And this is, we'll share a linkto, uh, the product page, but
this is a bumper style case,which I think has really gone
outta style in the past fewyears.

(58:32):
Uh, back in the early days ofantenna Antennagate, I think it
was around the iPhone four.
You know, apple gave my stylecases, for whatever reason,
they've fallen outta style.
Um, but I got this iPhone 15 ProMax, uh, last, late last year.
And I, for last two phones, I'vebeen on a four year cycle.

(58:55):
So I went from the iPhone sevento the iPhone 11, from the
iPhone 11 to the iPhone 15.
So, um, I, I had to get a newcase as well for this new phone.
I.
And this was the first time Ihad access to a phone that
supported MagSafe you couldattach things mag magnetically
to the back of the case.

(59:18):
and so, you know, I started todo all this digging into what
kind of case should I get?
And I originally was going toget, um, one of Apple's new
cases for the Lon 15 line.
there's an interesting casestudy there in that I think
admirably decided to stop usingleather products because at

(59:40):
their scale leather, you know,is, has very huge sustainability
challenges for company makingproducts at their scale.
that was admirable.
And think it was also veryinteresting that they pushed
themselves to not just make afake leather case, you know,
with just kind of pleather likematerial that we've all seen.

(01:00:00):
Uh, instead they a new materialthat was actually a microfiber.
It's made up of these you know,very microscopic, uh, loops of
synthetic material.
it results in a case that has areally unique hand to it.
has a little bit of give, um,and, you know, it just, at least

(01:00:22):
to me, felt much nicer in thehand than your typical synthetic
leather.
But the people have reported,like, I think just last week,
there's some reporting fromJoanna Stern from the Wall
Street Journal in reporting thather iPhone 15 case just looked
like a rotten.
Banana, I think she called it'cause it had started get going

(01:00:43):
brown

Joachim (01:00:45):
how

Ernest (01:00:45):
stains on it and stuff.
it's been a, I thinkunfortunately a bit of a failed
experiment.
You know, I think they deservecredit for trying to do
something, to get away but itseems like the solution hasn't
worked out.
But, um, so.
That led me to this idea of,Hey, you know, this phone has
this beautiful design.

(01:01:06):
Why would I just cover it?
You know, they just seemed socrazy to me.
Uh, so I just said, you know,they used to be bumper cases.
Someone must still make some.
And after quite a bit ofdigging, I did finally land on
this Rhino Shield crash card,uh, which just goes around the
perimeter of the phone.
One thing that's interesting,um, is that the rim stands

(01:01:29):
quite, uh, proud of the back ofthe case, and that's because it
has to protect the veryprominent camera bump the back
of the iPhone 15.
Um, this wasn't an issue in theold days of the iPhones where
the, there was no camera bump,but was a little worried about
that.
I thought that that might beissue and that, you know, it
would make the phone feel quitea bit thicker.

(01:01:51):
but I actually found that thatwas a really, I.
Good benefit in that.
I also use this peak design slimwallet, I think it's called.
It's a mag safe wallet that youcan stick on the back of your
phone.
um, I really like that becauseit means I don't have to have a
separate wallet.
But the great thing is that the.

(01:02:13):
Crash guard acts as like aguardrail for the wallet.
So when I put the phone in mypocket, uh, if, if I didn't, if
I had a, a conventional case,the wallet would, you know,
really often want to just slideright off.
Um, and because the magnets arestrong, but with the crash guard

(01:02:33):
kind of acting as a guardrail,even if the wallet slides a
little bit.
It'll just pop right back intoplace.
So found this combination to bea really good, um, my favorite
combo that I've had,'cause I'vehad wallet style cases in the,
in the past, uh, where thewallet piece is built into the
case itself.
Um, and, you know, that's nice,but it you know, a relatively

(01:02:57):
thick total package.
I found this to be a really nicecombo.
One last thing is that.
Rhino Shield allows you tocustomize the color of the
buttons, you know, so you haveyour button for the volume up
and down and, um, the, uh, uh,power button as well as the, I
forget what they call it now,but they added a button in the

(01:03:18):
iPhone 15.
I think it's the action button.
Um, and so it's just really,really small thing, for 99 cents
you could get a set of buttonsin a different color and, you
know, the opportunity to justadd that little bit of
customization to your case, um,in a very simple way.
And I, I did that.
I, I have the, what, essentiallygray bumper and then I added an

(01:03:46):
orange, action button.
and it just makes it that, well,you know, it gives it that
little bit of personality thatit wouldn't have had otherwise.
So, uh, the RhinoshieldCrashGuard iPhone 15, Pro Max
case is my recommendation of theweek.

Joachim (01:04:02):
Thanks for that, Ernest.
That's very cool.
I've been sitting on myrecommendation for a while
actually.
I, I remember when we decided todo this, I, I made a list of
just one of the things that Ithink are cool, and today feels
like the right time to mentionthis one.
So it's, it is for littlepeople.
It's a toy company, Bruder,they're a German company.

(01:04:23):
Bruder toys or Bruderr Toys willsend the link in their show
notes.
They make these pretty detailedscale models of trucks and
forklifts.
They're great toys.
A little bit on the pricey end,but the quality's pretty high.
But the reason why they're worthmentioning, especially in this

(01:04:43):
context, is they have a reallygreat spare parts catalog and
it's incredibly easy to repairthese toys.
So some of them have got a lotof intricate little details.
For example, a forklift, youknow, actually has a working
forklift component, or a garbagetruck has a working little
flipper to put the garbage intothe the bay.

(01:05:05):
Those things break.
I have small people of varyingages.
Not all of them appreciate the,high fidelity reproduction of a
real garbage truck.
And so things break, obviously,and all these little plastic
bits, wing mirrors fly off.
It's been pretty cool to be ableto just go online and get
specific parts, not at a crazyprice, and essentially refresh

(01:05:30):
these toys so that they can livea little bit longer.
So, this toy will be ready forthe next little person to
inherit from the older one andthen pass it through the, the
generations.
And it just made me love thisbrand a little bit more.
I think if you go into a storeas a parent, you see that
they're around, but they don'treally advertise the fact that

(01:05:50):
they're so repairable.
and so I would like to advertisethat because I think it's a
pretty cool thing to, to be ableto do so easily.
And it's not crazy price to buythe spare parts.
They're not gonna get you$20 fora car or look, there's
appropriately priced for what itis, and you'll get a sense of
pride that that toy can go alittle bit longer in its

(01:06:10):
lifetime.
I would recommend them to peoplewho are thinking about something
that's a little bit more.
High quality, and they want thedetail of the real vehicles but
then that added benefit of longlasting, so my rec for the

Ernest (01:06:22):
That's a great one.
Definitely super relevant to thetopic as well well, alright, I
think that does it for us.
Thank you so much for joining ushere at Learn Make Learn.
As I mentioned, we want to hearfrom you, so please send any
questions or feedback toLearnMakeLearn@gmail.com and
tell your friends about us.
For our next episode, we'regoing to discuss the lone genius

(01:06:45):
versus a creative collective, ismore conducive to innovation.
Are there contexts or phases ofproduct creation where one
approach might offer advantagesover the other?
We'll share our own experiencesand perspectives on this topic.
On the next Learn, make, learn.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Can Restomod Culture Go Mainstream?