Caveat Emptor?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ernest (00:04):
Hello and welcome to Learn, Make, Learn, where we
share qualitative andquantitative perspectives on
products to help you makebetter.
My name is Ernest Kim and I'mjoined by my friend and co host
Joachim Groeger.
Hey Joachim, how's it going?

Joachim (00:19):
I'm doing well.
It's the end of the year.
We've been doing this for ayear.
I was thinking about that, youknow, I also got very fixated on
the 25 before 25 thing, so I wasvery motivated that we get this
in.
We're recording on December30th, so.
Yeah, I feel, uh, I feel good.
I feel good about that.

(00:39):
We're going to squeeze this insomehow.
How about you?

Ernest (00:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, geez.
As you might have heard, I'vebeen a little bit sick over the
past couple of weeks.
But otherwise, I've been prettywell, definitely enjoyed this,
the holidays we've had over thelast couple of weeks.
But yeah, to your point, this isepisode 25, our final episode of
2024.
Hopefully we'll get it editedand published before the end of

(01:05):
the year.
and our topic today is caveatemptor or buyer beware.
And we'll explain more of whatwe mean by this in just a
minute.
But let's start with some followups.
if Joachim, do you have anyfollow ups to our previous
episode on MKBHD or any episodesprior?

Joachim (01:23):
so a friend and I'm going to try and get them onto
the podcast, listen to the MKBHDpanels episode.
It was very interesting to hearfrom someone who is, uh,
themselves not embedded in anyof this, wasn't part of the, the
discussion, and hearing theirperspective on just how wild it
is, that's that this stuffhappens and people are not aware

(01:46):
of it.
And it just plays out, partlybecause it's interesting from
the perspective of we are in alittle echo chamber of, Oh,
we're, we have our ears and eyesout for that stuff.
But then also when people hearabout it, they go like, wow,
this is crazy that this stuff isgoing on.
So that's the only thing I canactually add to our MKBHD
discussion that.
Yeah.
If more people listen to it,they might be surprised about

(02:06):
the wackiness of, of the techworld and, and the weird
subculture that exists withYouTube influencers who then
cross over into being productmakers and the strange space
that that inhabits.
I think it's still interesting.
We didn't quite get into thebroader YouTube ecosystem
because everyone's got brandedeverything now.
But, um, yeah, it was quiteinteresting to hear from someone

(02:27):
who was doing that.
Well, outside of ourdiscussions, and hopefully we
can get them on the podcast totalk about where they're coming
from, because I think they havea very unique perspective.
Uh, they're actually an artist,so that could be quite cool.
So anyway, I'm giving a littletidbit for 2025 there.
So yeah.
But what about you, Ernest?
Did you have anything that was,related to, MKBHD or anything
else.

Ernest (02:47):
Yeah, yeah, actually, um, but that's a great shot.
It would be great to get them onthe shows as well.
And I mean, I think I don't knowif you've heard about this at
all, but if you follow theentertainment news, there's been
this huge story about.
Blake Lively and, uh, her costar and the person who directed
that film, It Ends With Us, andthis kind of shadow PR campaign

(03:09):
that they waged.
So, um, I think a lot of peopleare surprised to learn about,
um, these things that happenedkind of behind the scenes.
Uh, but yeah, my one, uh, bitof, uh, follow up was actually
also to our, uh, previousepisode on MKBHD as panels app
and pricing in general.
Um, And, and it has to do withMKBHD or Marques Brownlee.

(03:32):
He posted a recap video for theyear, uh, titled WTF Happened in
2024.
And um, if you found ourdiscussion about Marques
Brownlee interesting, I thinkyou'll find this recap of the
year interesting as well.
And we'll include a link to thatvideo in our show notes.
Um, I think the, the reason Ifound it interesting is that for
one, it's a, it's a greatillustration of why he's been

(03:55):
able to build such a.
Huge following, uh, over thepast, what, decade plus now, I
forget how long it's been from.
Uh, he speaks in this video,this recap of the year, he
speaks to the successes he's hadover the past year, which are
numerous, uh, and extend beyondthe world of tech and content
creation, but he doesn't shyaway from the controversies that

(04:17):
he was mixed up in over thecourse of the year.
And he also openly acknowledgesthe mistakes he made, including
the launch of the panels appthat we discussed.
And, you know, I have to admit,I found that admirable.
And so it seems that many of hisviewers, uh, for example, a
viewer named at Carlos Ocasio2247 wrote the following in the

(04:40):
comments to the video.
So quote, thank you for owningup Marques and thank you for
learning.
Hopefully you can see that a lotof us will still be here for you
guys, unquote.
And that comment itselfreceived.
1, 200 likes, which is kind ofamazing

Joachim (04:59):
That's crazy.

Ernest (04:59):
Yeah.
a comment to the video received1, 200 likes, while the video
itself, uh, as of our recordinghas received, 112, 000 likes.
thousand likes.
so, you know, speaking to hispopularity, but, you know, kind
of building on that, this alsohighlights a point that Joachim
made in our last episode aboutthe parasocial relationships

(05:21):
that form between contentcreators and their viewers.
You know, not that I'd everencourage anyone to risk their
sanity by wading into YouTubecomments, but if you wanted to
see this dynamic in action, justtake a look at the comments to
Brownlee's video and you'll seeexample after example of the
sorts of illusions of intimacy,friendship, and identification
that mark parasocialrelationships.

(05:43):
And I know that the concept ofparasocial interaction has
existed for decades, but it'sclear that it's become more
intense in our contemporarymedia landscape.
And I think this is particularlytrue Uh, particularly
problematic for men who areexperiencing what's come to be
called a friendship recessionwith 20 percent of single men in
America now reporting that theyhave zero close friends on, this

(06:07):
could be a topic for an entireepisode.
So in the interest of time, I'lljust include a link in the show
notes to an episode of the 1Apodcast that's focused on this
topic, as well as a fantasticepisode of the People I Mostly
Admire podcast that features aninterview with a social
scientist and author namedRichard Reeves, who's focused a

(06:27):
lot of his recent work on thebroader challenges faced by boys
and men today.
So we'll include links to boththose things in the show notes.
All right.
So, Jumping to our episodetoday, uh, we're going to talk
about the principle of caveatemptor or buyer beware, but
specifically within the contextof product innovation.
And, I'll start with a littlebit of a backstory of what

(06:51):
inspired this topic for us.
And it came from a recent tripthat my wife and I took to New
York.
It was our, it was my actuallyfirst holiday trip to New York
in Uh, gosh, over a decade.
I grew up in New York, um, but,uh, haven't been back in, in
quite a while, uh, at least notfor a holiday.

(07:12):
I've been back for work a coupleof times, but not on holiday.
And it was a great trip.
We had a great time.
We saw, um, some friends, butone of the things I had hoped
I'd be able to do while we werethere was try out some fancy
high end headphones.

Joachim (07:28):
That's so specific.
And just by the way, I just needto like, we need to be very
clear how niche that is.
Like you go to New York city andwhat you're looking forward to
is testing out high endheadphones.
I just, we need to dwell on thatmoment for a second.
It's on, it's on, uh, it's onbrand.
That's all I want to say.

Ernest (07:50):
know it sounds pretty random, but I had this
particular interest in tryingopen back headphones and
specifically planar magneticopen back headphones.
And, And the reason I wanted todo that while in New York is
that it's, it's pretty, uh,difficult to find places where
you can just try out theseheadphones.

(08:12):
Uh, there's nowhere, at leastthat I'm aware of in Portland,
where I was, I would have beenable to try out the headphones I
was interested in.
So, um, that was something thatwas kind of on my list of things
to do while we're in New York.
And fortunately we were, able tomake time to do that.
Uh, I went to this great store,um, called audio 46, which is on

(08:32):
29 West 46th street inManhattan.
That's their name, audio 46.
This is not sponsored.
Uh, they, there was nocommercial interaction here.
It's just that, um, they had theheadphones that I wanted to try.
And it was actually a reallygreat experience.
The person who helped me out,just gave me tons of time was
very patient really engaged mywife as well, which is fantastic

(08:57):
So she actually ended up reallyenjoying the experience even
though she really didn't haveany interest in in trying out
Fancy headphones, but there weresome specific models that I was
interested in and they had Allof them there.
So specifically the headphones Itried were the Sennheiser HD 800
S, which are like a legendary,uh, set of headphones have been

(09:20):
around largely unchanged for, Ithink over two decades now,
which is remarkable, you know,for any kind of electronics
equipment to be around for thatlong, which, you know, speaks to
how good they are.
So, uh, tried those, those areopen back, but not planar
magnetic.
And then also, uh, tried this,uh, A set of headphones from a

(09:40):
brand called Focal, which is aFrench company, specifically the
Focal Clear MG.
Uh, and then also the, uh, uh,two headphones from a company
called Hifiman.
A lot of reviewers pronounce itHifiman, but it's just spelled
Hifiman.

Joachim (10:01):
It doesn't sound right, does it?

Ernest (10:02):
Yeah, so I'm just going to say Hifiman.
Uh, the model I wanted to try iscalled the Arya Organic.
They didn't have that, but theydid have a different version of
the Arya called the Stealth, andthey had a version of the Arya
that I wasn't aware of, whichwas the called the Hifiman Arya

(10:23):
Unveiled.
And, um, all of these, with theexception of the Arya Stealth,
are in this sort of 1400territory, in terms of price
point.
The Arya Stealth is, is a fairbit lower than that, it's about
600.
Um, so I tried them all, and Ithink the good thing is, I knew
a little bit about them, but Ididn't know too much, and I just

(10:44):
let my ears dictate mypreference.
Um, and after listening to them,I can't, I, it was very clear to
me that the set that I preferredthe most was this Hifiman Arya,
Unveiled.
And it was the same with mywife.

(11:04):
She said very clearly, these arethe ones that Sounded best to
her.
And, um, so I actually did buythem.
Um, these all require an amp aswell.
So I had to buy a headphone amp.

Joachim (11:17):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Yeah.
Real.
I mean, a true investment.

Ernest (11:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was a little ridiculous.
It was the one splurge I madeduring this trip.
Um, but so I came to learnafterward that there are lots of
misgivings in the kind of highend Headphone community about
this unveiled concept thatHifiman has, uh, offered over

(11:44):
the past year or so.
so.
you know, we could go into thiswhole sidebar into what are
planar magnetic headphones andwhat's unveiled, but I'll keep
it short and say that.
these were all open backheadphones, meaning that, um, if
you're in the room with a personlistening to these headphones,
you can hear what they'relistening to.

(12:05):
It's not but Uh, in that sense,they're incredibly impractical.
All these things were incrediblyimpractical because they're the
very opposite of noise cancelingheadphones.
You know, you can hear a bit ofwhat's in the room around you.
People in the room can also hearwhat you're listening to.
So they, they're really onlymeant to be used at home in a
quiet room, um, with anamplifier attached.

Joachim (12:30):
It's very specific,

Ernest (12:31):
very specific.

Joachim (12:32):
Yeah.

Ernest (12:33):
The whole reason I did this is that I've, I've bought
expensive, somewhat expensiveheadphones in the past.
I guess what people would callmid fi things like the, uh,
Apple AirPods max or, Bang Olsentype headphones, which I guess a
lot of audiophile people wouldconsider like lifestyle
headphones, but I've I've neverbeen happy with them.

(12:54):
I've always felt like, why arethese things as expensive as
they are?
They just never kind of wowed mewith the audio quality.
So I just.
Thought, let me at least trythese things that are,
ridiculous amounts of money andsee if I'm actually impressed by
them and see if they, you know,kind of move me and give me an
emotional reaction.
And they did.
Uh, and so that's why I ended upactually buying this HiFiMan

(13:15):
Arya Unveiled.
They, they were so much betterthan any headphone I'd ever,
ever, ever tried.
And actually, All of thoseheadphones were very, very good,
much better than any headphonethat I'd ever tried.
And then across them that AryaUnveiled was very clearly to me,
to my ears, better than therest.

(13:36):
And so, you know, once after, Ididn't do research until after I
bought them, I came to learnthat this Unveiled concept is
somewhat controversial and it'sbecause they, not only are they
open back, But they completelytake away any of the material
that would, in most headphones,protect that driver.

Joachim (13:59):
I see.

Ernest (14:00):
Um, and that's, thus the, the unveiled terminology.
And the, the rationale thatHifiman, gives is that I'm
quoting them here by removingthe traditional grill that
protects the drivers.
Arya unveiled eliminates soundwave reflections that can
distort and muddy the audio.

(14:20):
This innovation creates an opentransparent listening
experience, allowing you to hearevery detail with breathtaking
accuracy.
That's their language.
Any open back headphone is goingto give you some degree of that.
You know, that's the whole ideaof open back headphones, but
they're saying it's that it,this does it even more.
And I would say that I, I, Iheard a very clear difference

(14:44):
between the Arya stealth, whichthey had in the store and this
Arya unveiled, you know, theversions of the same model, and
to me, the Arya unveiled wasclearly better, whether it's the
It was because of thisunveiling, or it was for other
factors, I don't know.
But to my ears, the unveiledversion was clearly superior in

(15:06):
terms of the audio quality,which is why I went for them.
in researching this, after thefact, I came to learn that a lot
of audio high end headphonereviewers feel like the unveiled
concept, uh, creates undue riskbecause, by taking away any of
those sorts of grills that mightprotect the driver.

(15:29):
It means that it's a lot easierto damage the driver.
it's one nano less than ananometer thick.
So it's, it is a very fragilething.
And not only that, the driver issurrounded by these very
powerful magnets.
So if you happen to have, let'ssay, a paper clip on your desk,
uh, that's, that's near thedriver, you know, there's this

(15:50):
fear that that would get suckedinto the headphone and damage
the driver.
And, you know, it's, it's to thepoint that one, uh, YouTube
reviewer, the title for theirreview is for one of the, uh, a
different HiFiMan, um, unveiledheadphone.
The title is something likethese headphones are terrifying

(16:10):
because they're just terrifiedthat they're going to damage,
uh, the drivers, you know, whichis fair because they are quite
expensive.
Right.
Um, so.
It was interesting to me thatthere is this, um, uh,
perspective that, um, HIFIMENhas this responsibility to, uh,

(16:32):
to the customers to, to notexpose them to this level of
risk.
Uh, so I found that reallyinteresting because even after
learning of this, of theseconcerns, I am glad.
That hyphen has put out thisproduct because I think the
audio quality, uh, is worth it.

(16:56):
if that's what it takes todeliver this level of audio
quality, I feel like, um, I'mwilling to assume that risk and
it's not as though, um, hyphendoesn't provide you with some
mechanisms to mitigate the risk.
So the headphones actually comewith what they call veils,

(17:16):
basically just these covers.
that magnetically attached tothe outside of the headphone.
So when you're done listening,the idea is that you put the
veils on and you can actuallylisten to them with the veils
on.
And it's, it's a massivedifference in audio quality.
So, you know, clearly the factthat they're open does do
something.
So that's what kind ofprecipitated this topic, right?

(17:39):
So how much risk is it fair fora brand to subject the customer
to?
It's worth noting too, thatHIFIMAN does offer a warranty,
but only for defects.
So, you know, I think that isanother reason to potentially be

(18:00):
concerned that, you know, it isa more fragile product.
And if I damaged the product,um, because let's say I put it
down and it sucks a paperclipinto itself, you know, I'd be on
the hook for that.
So, um, it is a far higherdegree of risk than you'd

(18:21):
encounter with any.
Typical headphone.
That's absolutely true.

Joachim (18:26):
Are they repairable?
I mean, is it, is it possible,like, if something does damage
that they can be opened up andthey can be repaired?
Either, you probably would haveto send them back to the shop,
uh, the manufacturer, I assume.

Ernest (18:37):
Yeah,

Joachim (18:38):
that part of their culture, at least, that,

Ernest (18:40):
it's a, it's a good question.
I'm not sure.
Um, I would guess, you know, Ishouldn't say that because one
of the things that I've seen invarious Reddit threads is one of
the things Hifiman is doing.
criticized on consistently istheir lack of customer service.

Joachim (19:00):
oh,

Ernest (19:01):
So Yeah.
maybe a little bit morebackground on this.
Uh, HIFIMAN is a China basedcompany started by, um, a person
who actually, uh, Uh, he startedthe kind of precursor to the
company when he lived in NewYork and he had a great
appreciation for music and he,uh, spent a lot of time

(19:21):
attending concerts at, uh, um,at Carnegie Hall and Lincoln
Center.
And he felt that the headphonesavailable at the time, while
maybe delivering a high degreeof accuracy, didn't do a very
good job of replicating thatexperience of hearing music.
In real life, and so that's whatled him to start this company

(19:43):
that eventually became Hifiman,and they're pretty interesting
in that they've veryaggressively pursued innovation.
They really are pushing theenvelope.
And in some ways it kind ofreminds me of the old days of
Apple, you know, kind of theiPod days of Apple where There's

(20:03):
that expression that Steve Jobsused at the time, but basically
obsoleting themselves.
Very quickly and you know, SteveJob's perspective on that was if
we don't do it, then ourcompetitors will so better that
we be the ones to obsolete ourown products.
Um, but that's pretty unusual inthat sort of high-end audiophile

(20:24):
space, right?
Where things up till now until,recently have been pretty static
and innovation's been prettyslow.
So, that's another, reason whythere's maybe some segments of
the audiophile community that.
Uh, aren't, so happy aboutHifiman and their approach.
So it just felt like it could bean interesting topic of

(20:45):
conversation.
I think.
this is maybe a, a relativelyinnocuous version of this.
You know, we're talking aboutsuper high end headphones, you
know, and who no one's going tocry for me if I damage my
headphones, right.
on the maybe other extreme endof this is I'd say Tesla and the
approach that they've taken tobasically in allowing their own

(21:08):
customers to beta test theirself driving software, which.
Has actually led to some peopledying, uh, not only the dryer
drivers, but people who've been,um, struck by, uh, people
driving cars in self drivingTesla's in self driving mode.
you know, that's at an anotherextreme.
Hyperman clearly isn't the onlyexample of this happening.

(21:29):
There's other examples of, um,uh, companies, you know, maybe
pushing the envelope withinnovation and putting
customers, Or at least, uh,expecting their customers to
accept a higher degree of riskthan, um, is perhaps typical.
So it was something that I wasreally curious just to hear what

(21:51):
you, you thought of, uh,Joachim.
And then maybe we could talkabout it more broadly too and
what implications it might havein terms of product creation But
what, what's your perspective onthis?

Joachim (22:02):
Yeah.
It's kind of interesting to heara high end hi fi company trying
to mimic the innovation model orproduction cycle model of a
software company aggressivelyupdating things at such a pace.
Like you said, in hi fi thatdoesn't happen very often.
It's a pretty stable industry.

(22:23):
there's well known brands thatdo a very specific thing.
They have found their niche withstuff and if anything they
generally will go backwards andthey'll just like reissue old
speakers with new technology orthings like that in the hi fi
domain.
So it's interesting to hear thatthis exists.
And I can also see your side andstuff.

(22:44):
People know that there's a riskand you understood the risk
because you could, you heard thedescription is very clear.
knowing what you're gettingyourself into is very different
from becoming a beta tester forsomething that's more critical,
right?
Is the risk being mitigated oris the risk just being
transferred?
Um, and I think that's kind ofwhere I feel more in the

(23:05):
technology domain, the companiesare shifting risk to the
consumer as opposed to trying tomitigate it as best as possible,
but then saying, Hey, don'tworry, like we will keep
updating if we detect problemsin, in anything.
I think the broader landscape isthe thing I was trying to wrap
my head around, which was Whywould you play this game as a
company?

(23:25):
Why would you want to innovate,but then have this risk in the
system, where customers will,will want to, well, we'll be
exposed to a bad experience andthen you say, you promise you'll
make it better down the line orsomething like that.
And it seems like it is justbecause everything has turned
into a race.
It's a race for supremacy, arace for dominance, as opposed

(23:49):
to a race for quality.
And it's interesting because wehaven't actually built markets
from the ground up to favorquality, which is the thing we
care about, right?
And this is the common storyabout the capitalist system,
everyone's gonna out innovateeach other.
But actually, that reallydoesn't seem to happen.

(24:11):
You just have to be first.
Get there first.
Get a critical mass of people,to believe that you are the
first person to do something.
Everyone believes it.
And then when everyone's lockedin your damn system, you start
promising all kinds of stuff Andthen you hope that it all works
out.
that works for software, thatworks for social networks, that
works for Netflix, YouTube,whatever.

(24:32):
Like, those things are notcritical settings.
But It certainly feels like nowwe are expected to have a high
threshold of tolerance to thattype of risk And you know, it
should just be kind of like wellThis is the price of innovation
and that's what we have to payBut the great irony is that the
corporations never pay thatprice They just shifted it over
to us I think the, the idea thatwe just have to race to be first

(24:56):
is, is the root cause of a lotof these things.
And you don't have to be firstin terms of quality.
You just have to be first interms of the person to capture
enough of the market.
And then you can shape thenarrative of what happens next.
that was a kind of a, a broaderpoint around the crazy market
dynamics that we have now, butTesla is perfect example of that

(25:16):
first.
mass market electric car, uh,first to build out its
supercharger network.
And so as a result is now the defacto standard setter for
everyone else, even if thequality of their vehicles is not
up to snuff in many dimensions.
The Cybertruck is a perfectexample of just how deranged

(25:37):
their thinking has gotten.
Basic safety features thatautomotive engineers worry about
day in, day out, and work on foryears to get right, they just
kind of rush out.
I don't know if you were awareor watched the videos of people
testing out the auto closingfunctions on the front hood and
then being able to squishcarrots and cut them apart and

(25:57):
the thing doesn't respond.
It just puts more force on it toget it closed.
You know, absolutely.
The opposite of where we've comefrom of decades of people
intervening to make sure thesesystems are safe.
But you just have to get outthere, get it at first, and then
you control the narrative ofthis is innovation, this is the
price of innovation.
I remember getting a ride withsomeone and they had a Model X
we were driving and They werejust saying how wonderful the

(26:21):
car is say this car is justincredible.
You know, it works perfectly anduh, yeah, except sometimes the
doors don't open properly.
Yeah.
But aside from that, thenthey're fine.
And then there was that one timethat I couldn't get it to charge
properly and close the thing,but that was okay.
And then there was the, thedisplay.

(26:41):
Well, that just shut down whileI was on the highway, but I
think it was okay.
Cause everything rebooted andyou're just, you're just
thinking, wait a minute, what'shappened here.
You've lost the ability to havea sense of where the risk is.
You're taking on this risk, butyou're taking it on kind of in
this, hazing kind of way.
Like, this is the price ofinnovation.
If you are at the frontier, thisis what is expected.

(27:01):
That's, that doesn't soundright.
And when someone on the one handis telling you it's 100 percent
safe, or this is the price ofinnovation, and you have to pay
it, something has gone wrong.
Yeah, so that's, yeah, so Ithink, going back to the hi fi
thing think we all understandlike vinyl record players, are
finicky and fragile and thecartridges can be damaged and
your records can be damaged andscratched.

(27:21):
It's kind of the price of doingbusiness and you know it when
you're going in.
You're not expecting to be ableto throw a vinyl record across
the room and it should play.
You could probably get awaydoing, away with that, with
that.
a CD, and then playing that CD,a couple of scratches will be
okay.
So, having that clearunderstanding of what it is that
you are buying and where therisks are is important.

(27:41):
Uh, and you hope that the personwho is making the thing has done
everything to mitigate thoserisks.
So, yeah, I think that's the,that's the main thing.
I guess it's about agency andwhether you're being coerced
into something that you don'twant to be, uh, involved in, you
know, I don't want to have asystem installed while I'm
driving without knowing what itis that it's going to be doing,
but that's kind of the culturethat we've become accustomed to

(28:04):
because we're so used to it onapps.
Our apps that we use on ourpersonal devices are not going
to crash our cars out ofnowhere.
But when you do an over the airupdate on the car in the
background, and you're just betatesting me, and I have agreed
because I signed a contract oncewhen I bought the car, that's
pretty different.

Ernest (28:20):
Yeah, I, I have to say I'm really of two minds when it
comes to Tesla, which I do thinkis probably the kind of example
of this because the stakes areso high, but you know, so I
absolutely acknowledge all ofthat.
And yet I would also say thatYeah, I had an opportunity to

(28:44):
talk to somebody who works inthe automotive industry and I
brought up Tesla and I assumedthat they would really badmouth
Tesla, But they, theirperspective was that, as someone
in the automotive industry whoworked for a company that made
internal combustion engine cars,that Tesla had accelerated the

(29:05):
adoption of electric cars bymany years, if not decades.
And I think that's absolutelytrue.
And that's a net positive forsociety.
You know, to transition awayfrom ICE cars.
And it wouldn't have happened asquickly if it weren't for Tesla

(29:28):
and the aggressiveness withwhich they approached that
space.
Um, and then I, I think byextension, you could say similar
things about self driving.
I think that if we are ever ableto actually, uh, deliver on self
driving at scale, which I thinkis still a pretty big if I think

(29:52):
there would be some pretty bignet positives for society
associated with that.
I think it would be safer.
You know, the Waymo experiencetoday suggests that it would be
significantly safer.
It would offer mobility to a lotof people who currently lack
mobility today.
So getting there, I think wouldbe a net positive for society.

(30:12):
But, you know, is it, is itworth it?
Right.
I guess.
Uh, and to your point, I thinkit is all about agency.
And I do think that there is,responsibility on the part of
the user there, you know, thereare safeguards built into
Tesla's, uh, I forget what theautopilot or whatever they call

(30:33):
it.
System in terms of.
saying that you're meant to keepyour hands on the wheel, you
know, and people are, are notadhering to those finding ways
to bypass them.
Um, so that's, to me, the fuzzyterritory of how far does the

(30:55):
product maker's responsibilityextend?

Joachim (30:58):
Yeah, I can, I can see, I can see that.
Actually, the examples that yougave are very interesting
because, I spoke about this ideathat if you get somewhere first,
you control the narrative of theworld that we live in.
And so it is true.
We have the competition to getelectric cars on the roads was
totally spurred by Tesla.

(31:20):
I would argue that it actuallywas not necessarily because the
technology was something thatpeople wanted to do.
It was more that they wanted tomimic.
the stock market performance ofTesla.
And that is why they needed tofollow that narrative that said,
I can't have this guy runningaround saying he's the future of
the world when I'm, you know,I've, I know how to build these

(31:42):
things and we should be doingthat.
So everyone hopped onto theelectric car bandwagon.
And we're now seeing a lot ofthe consequence of that, which
is Crap ton of cars are goingunsold, a lot of like high
depreciation on electric cars,which is insane, uh, even high
end ones losing 30, 40 percentwithin no time at all.
I think that the, thecompetitive force that took over

(32:02):
was more the narrative forcethat took over.
As a result, there's a dangerthat we missed what else could
have been done with that time.
So, like a benevolent.
Electric car manufacturer comingout.
They say, here's the electriccar.
It's very cool.
It's very fancy.
It's only for the top 1%.
But guess what we're going to donext?

(32:22):
We're going to be buildingpublic buses that are electric.
We will work with cities tocreate dedicated lanes where we
can take advantage of thecombination of self driving,
dedicated lanes, safety, andmass transit.
Because the Simple truth of acar is, is it takes up a lot of
space relative to how manypeople can fit inside of a car.
But a bus doesn't have thosetypes of constraints, so buses

(32:44):
are definitely the way forward.
And if we could have a fleet ofhighly organized, self driving,
plus piloted, uh, public transitsystems with dedicated lanes,
where the only traffic that isthere most of the time is going
to be buses.
A lot of the things would beresolved as well, and people
would have access to somethingthat is affordable and where
they can actually elect theofficials that design those

(33:05):
systems and update the system.
So that to me is like acounterfactual world that we've
never been able to experiencebecause of this race.
To get there first and do thosethings.
And so, yeah, that's just thekind of the mini, uh,
alternative world that Isometimes wonder, like, what
would that have looked like?
There was actually a briefperiod in England where a small
company called Arrival wastoying with these ideas.

(33:27):
But then interestingly enough,they went completely bananas and
started promising electricplanes and then they collapsed,
but they had a great design,which was a modular, uh,
skateboard, as they called it,where they just had this.
platform, you just plunkwhatever you wanted to plunk on
top of it.
And then their initial pitch wasUPS trucks and, uh, Royal Mail

(33:50):
delivery trucks, which is theequivalent of the USPS in the
UK.
Um, and then they also had likesmall buses as another thing.
And that would have been veryinteresting to see that.
And again, Tesla has benefitedfrom huge state subsidies, but
ultimately it's making a carthat very few people can access

(34:10):
and doesn't overcome thefundamental constraints of the
physical space that a car takesup.
So I didn't want to go offtopic, but there was a piece of
me that wants to think aboutthose other worlds that could
have been, and could we haveachieved Even more if we had
gone in another direction.
I throw that as a counterpointto to Uh where you were coming

(34:32):
from on this but no, I I agreewith the fact that there's no
doubting it that without teslaWe wouldn't have mainstream car
manufacturers producing electriccars.
I mean there wouldn't be fordelectric cars I'm, pretty sure
that we would we would not beseeing that, you know, and
they're pretty pretty sweet aswell.
So

Ernest (34:49):
No, I think that's a great point.
Um, gosh, we could go off on awhole tangent about buses too,
because I'm, I'm a huge busadvocate.
I think this, being in Portland,this fixation with light rail is
ridiculous.
Like, I mean,

Joachim (35:04):
it's so wrong

Ernest (35:05):
the billions of dollars that they are spending on light
rail that is being unused whenyou could just use, Create
dedicated bus lanes, you know,oh, gosh, we could, yeah, It

Joachim (35:17):
But yeah, that's another topic.
Maybe that's, that'll be nextyear we'll talk about like urban
design

Ernest (35:22):
Yeah, yeah,

Joachim (35:24):
Right.
Yeah.

Ernest (35:25):
but I do think that's an interesting point because it
speaks to the challenge of thedifference between concept and
reality in that, you know, likeeven with, uh, Rivian.
I think they've kind of inchedtowards that in the, in the work
they've done in terms ofbuilding cargo vans, uh, working
with, um, uh, Amazon and Ibelieve UPS to make, delivery

(35:50):
vans, which is, you know, Ithink maybe a step on the way
towards maybe developingsomething like a bus, but how
much they've struggled with,Just the productization, cause I
think Steve Jobs talked aboutthis too, like ideas are a dime
a dozen, right?
It's so easy to have an idea.
What's so difficult is to turnthat into a product and not just

(36:10):
a product, but a profitableproduct that.
allows you to make the nextproduct.
I think that's the thing thatMusk understood to a degree that
I think to even today, a lot of,his competitors still don't seem
to understand.
You know, you can see thestruggles that Rivian's having

(36:32):
to be profitable.
They're still not profitable.
They still lose money on everyvehicle they make.
So, um, it shows why I thinkthere is this impulse to try to
control the narrative, to try tomaybe You know, fake it till you
make it.
That's classic Silicon Valleyapproach, um, so that you can

(36:56):
get That funding you need tokeep you afloat until you can
get to the version that you cansell at scale that can actually,
generate enough revenue toactually, um, make your company
a going concern without that,um, venture funding or without
that, um, equity, uh, that isbuilt on kind of the hope of

(37:19):
what the company is, will beversus what it actually is.
And I do think it's a verydangerous approach.
You see things like, uh, thecompany that, was promising
this, you know, magic blood, uh,analysis machine, you know.
Yeah, Theranos, you know, Ithink that's another great

(37:40):
example of the.
Uh, the dark side of this.
Um, and yet when it gets intodomains like automotive, the
amount of capital required isjust so enormous that you almost
need this sort of hocus pocus tomake people believe in what this

(38:02):
kind of potential future is.
it's a really tricky challenge.
I think the, the fun thing aboutthis HiFiMan.
Product is that it gets us maybeto a smaller scale.
That's a little bit morerelevant to, um, people making
product on an, on a day to daybasis,,, you know, it allows us
to maybe think about thisproblem on a more accessible

(38:25):
scale, and I have to say, I do,maybe this is because I had the
experience with the product, butI do come down on the side of
pushing the envelope.
I think that's maybe my bias aswell.
I love innovation and I lovebrands that are willing to take
the risks required to kind of,um, push industries to new

(38:46):
places.
And I've listened to someinterviews with the founder of
HifiMan, and who knows, it couldjust be a bunch of smoke and
mirrors, but I do get the sensethat he really does want to make
better products.
And he has this, the same sortof impatience that I saw in
Steve Jobs He wants to pushthings further to be better.

(39:12):
and you know, Hey, a byproductof that is that he makes money.
Um, and he establishes aleadership position that kind of
gives him some, um, added wiggleroom.
But I get the impression thatfundamentally.
What's driving him is thisdesire to make better products
and to get to this dream thathe's talked about of replicating

(39:34):
audio in a way that just feelstruer to life and not just
accurate, but actually true tothe experience of listening to
audio in a, in a perfectenvironment.
While I absolutely acknowledgethe downsides, my, Take is that
it's worth that as long as asyou've said, as long as you give

(39:56):
the customer agency Let themknow what the risks are so that
they're making it a choice withKnowledge not not tricking them

Joachim (40:06):
Yeah.
This is where I kind of, Iagree.
So I think everything we'vealways talked about has been,
Hey, push the envelope, take therisk.
Do something new.
I agree with innovation, therisk, the fact that there are
people that just want to dothings differently than they
have been, I think is essential.
This is also why, uh, I think inour time now, having artists and

(40:30):
people who are musicians,they're always thinking What if
something was different?
And I always think about that.
What if it was different?
So I think that's a reallyimportant force in the world.
And I think it brings risk withit because you're trying to
imagine an alternative thatdoesn't exist.
And you're going to try andmanifest that in some form.
What's interesting is I thinkThe way forwards is actually to
get that engagement from yourcustomer way, way earlier,

(40:52):
potentially, as opposed towaiting for the product cycle
and innovation cycle to becompleted, bring them on with
you with on the journey.
So part of me wonders why aren'twe innovating more on the
ownership innovation modelsupfront?
So that we are all participantsin the actual process as
citizens, all of us, you know,someone wants to do, Hey, I want

(41:15):
to build something.
That's really crazy.
And it's going to take a lot ofmoney.
Are we willing to use publicfunds that are actually now
going to be directed to thatthing?
And you can all vote.
Do you want your funds to go tothis thing?
And you will all have a slice ofwhatever comes out at the other
end.
Um, now as a citizenry thatyou're involved in the
innovation process.

(41:35):
Cause I do think that innovationis so costly.
You're right.
It's impossible to do this.
And private enterprises hasproven time and time again, that
it doesn't really want to do itbecause it's so risky and very,
very expensive, which is why somany innovations have come from.
the government sector, like theyinitiated broad research agendas
that had absolutely nocommercial end in sight.
And it was only much, much laterthat we realized, Oh, crikey,

(41:57):
this is all really, reallyvaluable.
And it's built the future thatwe live in today.
So maybe the model is, has to beflipped and, and we all
participate right at thebeginning, you know if everyone
puts a dollar from the adultpopulation of America, that
would fund a lot of this stuff.
So, maybe that's the way to moveit forward.
We actually start thinking aboutthe funding model as something
very different.

(42:18):
It's not just, you have toconvince the ten VCs in this
valley that you're doingsomething meaningful.
But you have to actuallyconvince the citizenry that this
is worth doing.
And we will have the checks andthe guards and the balances.
And we would be, as a citizenry,saying, You It's okay.
I only have a dollar at stakehere.
It's okay if it gets delayed bythree years, because I'm playing
the long game here for thisthing.

(42:40):
And I have these other hundredprojects that I've put one
dollar in that also mightgenerate a return for me and for
the country as a whole.
It's almost like an anarchistquasi libertarian decentralized
way of like picking innovationand funding innovation that way,
where you actually like directlypitching to the citizenry and
There's other things that haveto come into focus, right?

(43:01):
You have to be able to educateeveryone and Everyone will feel
invested, literally, in thesethings.
So I could imagine that could bequite interesting.
Let's open it up.
And then maybe that will thenunblock a lot more of the
innovation.
So then the ownership modelchanges.
Everyone's an owner.
Everyone's becomes, I mean,these are essentially
nationalized companies then.

(43:22):
I think it's also a greatselector because then if you are
really, really interested injust making the thing and you
don't really care about havingyour name and your ownership on
it, But you care about the ideaand the frontier that you're
pushing.
You take any deal that would getthat going so that you could see
it come to life.
I think, um, and who knows whatkinds of things would emerge.

(43:43):
We would have fewer, uh,companies emerge that are just
interested in that initial IPO.
to cash out and then walk awayas quickly as possible from
whatever dumpster fire they'vethey've actually been hiding
from the market.
I mean, Rivian is exactly facingtheir problem.
They were able to IPO.
But now they're subject to thewhims of the market on a
quarterly basis.
And you're trying to build abrand new.

(44:06):
Everything, you know, they'redoing vans, they're doing
trucks, they're doing SUVs,they're doing a smaller SUV.
It feels like that should havebeen something where potentially
we could have all beenparticipants in it and having a
very active citizenryparticipating in the innovation
process, you know, and thensomeone could say I don't want
to do this.
I feel it's a bigger questionthat we're pulling on a thread

(44:29):
here, that is the reallydifficult piece of how do you
get innovation going, how do youget everyone involved in it, I
think is the way to move itforwards because there is risk
inherent in it.
We're not always going to makegood decisions in aggregate, but
guess what?
We're already making pretty baddecisions in isolated VCs doing
things.
I mean, we work and Theranos, asyou said, The list is long of

(44:50):
very, very grifty, uh, companiesthat have nothing, that did
nothing for us.
I mean, I think the graveyard ofdot com companies is also a
perfect example of just moneybeing, you know, evaporating
from one second to the next,which is just crazy, you know?
So, yeah, maybe that is, maybewe need to stop Turning them
into speculative financialassets and turn them into like,

(45:13):
this is a ticket that you hold.
It's a bond and It's not gonnabe resellable.
It's just you are this thing.
You get to hold something fromthis company in the future.
That's it.
It's a, uh, it's your librarypass to it.
So

Ernest (45:28):
well what that actually brings to mind I'll dig up the
names, um, and include it in theshow notes, but I, uh, learned
about a filmmaker, an indiefilmmaker who used a platform.
And again, I can't remember thename of it, but I'll find it and
I'll include it in the shownotes.
But, um, Unlike Kickstarter,it's a platform that enables you

(45:50):
to provide, share equity in aproject.
So it's not like, you know,Kickstarter, you kick in, you're
basically pre buy.
Uh, whereas here you're actuallygetting equity in something and
this filmmaker used it to fundhis films.
And so if you had bought, uh,you know, invested in his
projects, then you wouldactually continue to get.

(46:14):
So if it, if the film is madeand goes to market, you would
get returns from, um, the boxoffice.
And then if it goes tostreaming, you would get returns
from those, that streaming sale.
If he sold DVD rights, you wouldget a return from that as well.
So you're truly.
Getting equity in this project.
And that, you know, ispersisting over time.

(46:36):
So, um, there are someinteresting examples of that,
you know, they're kind of fewand far between, I'd say, but I
do agree that there's a lot ofopportunity there to, um, to
think about, uh, different waysof, uh, kind of funding and
enabling innovation.
Um, I guess I'd say like in thecase of, uh, Rivian and.

(46:57):
Tesla as well.
They've sort of kind of done itin their pre buy model, or I
guess whether they call it likepre deposit model, um, it's just
that it's not quite enough.
That alone is not quite enoughat that, you know, scale of
automotive to really fund themanufacturing.
But in other contexts, maybe itis.

(47:19):
Um, I think the challenge therethough, is you still need to
build some kind equity in termsof brand equity to, to be able
to build enough of an audienceto get that investment.
So, you know, that's thechallenging bit in the case of
this indie director, he had donesome films previously using the

(47:42):
traditional model.
So he had some name recognition,so he was able to leverage that
to, to kind of tap into this newapproach.
Um, you know, as we've talkedabout, we've, you see folks like
MKBHD and other YouTubers who'vebuilt brand equity, being able
to leverage that into products.

(48:03):
So I think that's the challengeis if you're.
Kind of this no name person, butyou have a great idea and you
have even the know how, how doyou get that funding necessary
to turn that into an actualproduct?
Um, without maybe resorting tothe kind of classic models that
exist today.

Joachim (48:22):
Yeah, it's, I think it's one of those, I don't think
government is a solution to allof these things, but I do think,
like, they can create a playingfield, you know, that is more
level and allows for the, forthings to be moving in the right
direction, as opposed to beautypageants and, and these types of
ways of doing things.
So, who knows?
I, I, I think you're right thatthere's, exactly, Kickstarter's

(48:43):
a great precedent for it, but asyou said, it's pre purchase, uh,
and so, but then we live in theworld of the SEC that will
regulate orange groves becausethey're selling slices of that,
and that, you know, it's kind ofwacky.
It's just so strange that, I getit, I get why you'd want to
protect it, but then bring itinto the, into the light, and,

(49:05):
and come up with a way so thatwe can actually provide these,
uh, These mechanisms that getpeople involved in, in the
process early on.
So, yeah.

Ernest (49:13):
One, one last thing I'll note is that I am exercising my,
um, the levers I can pull, Iguess, as a consumer in terms
of, uh, I mentioned one of thebrands, one of the products I
tried was, uh, this thing calledthe, uh, from a brand called
Focal, which is a French brand.
Um, and one of the re I wasinterested in there is the Focal

(49:39):
Clear MG is the headphone Itried.
I was interested in that productone, because it, it gets good
reviews, but also because Focalowns, uh, this other brand
called Name.
Um, which is an English hi fiproduct company, and I own this
wireless speaker called theNamuso 2, which I really, really
like.
But I recently learned that, uh,Focal's now is owned by a

(50:02):
private equity company.
I didn't learn that till afterI, I trialed the product.
But, moving forward now, I'm notgoing, they're kind of out of my
consideration set.
So that's one, you small thingI'm doing to try to exercise,
you know, what little, um,leverage I have, you know, is
to, to, whether it comes in the,this space or in the watch space

(50:26):
to try to avoid these companiesowned by private equity, because
I do think that they're anincredibly corrosive force in
the world.

Joachim (50:35):
Yes.
Another, that's a whole episode.
I think as well, like what havethey done to products and what
have they done to companies thatmake stuff and how does that,
the financialization of everyentity turned into, you know,
destroying innovation.
I think that's, yeah, that's thewhole thing.
So, yeah.

Ernest (50:53):
All right, well, now that you've heard our
perspectives, we want to hearfrom you.
Please share your thoughts withus at learnmakelearn at gmail.
com or on threads atlearnmakelearnshow.
com.
all one word.
all right, now let's actuallymove on to our recommendation
section, but given that we'rerecording this at the end of

(51:16):
2024, we thought we might take alook at the year more broadly.
So Joachim, do you have any,let's say, products of the year
that you want to highlight,whether it's for good or for
ill?

Joachim (51:29):
Let me start with negative stuff and then we'll
see if we can find somepositivity.
I think it's been an interestingyear.
We just spoke about.
risk being transferred to theconsumer and things being
updated as they go along andeverything's going to be okay.
Two products that we'vediscussed in the past come to
mind, the Rabbit R1 and theHumane AI pin, uh, which have

(51:52):
now basically, I mean, Rabbit isstill trying to get its OS to
work.
So they are at least trying todo something.
It's not going well at all.
Um, Uh, and Humane is kind ofThrown in the towel and just
said, yeah, we just want to bebought out and who's, who cares
what actually happened again,very ambitious projects and just

(52:16):
really came out way too earlyand put on all of the Hassle of
figuring out what's wrong withthe system onto the end user,
which just feels terrible So itdoesn't even feel like you were
beta you were probably prealpha, you know on some of these
products So I would highlightthose as pretty awful awful
releases and Uh Yeah, kind ofdisappointing in the technology

(52:39):
domain.
Very, very recent and still veryfresh this year is anything
iPhone.
You know, uh, I think that'sbeen very disappointing.
The, the hardware is, you know,how many more times do we need?
How many more pixels do I needand smaller pixels do I need on
the screen?
How many extra buttons do youwant to add?

(53:02):
Uh, is this AI thing actuallyreal that you're adding into
this?
Is this just an annoyance?
Um Yeah, pretty, pretty lame.
I think that was literally theword that we used to describe
the event when we were talkingabout it.
It's like, it's just kind oflame, isn't it?
Um, so yeah, those are my, mynegative ones.
What about you?
Did you have a, a bad productthing before we share our

(53:23):
positive product?

Ernest (53:24):
Yeah, yeah, actually, so kind of also on the Apple, uh,
topic, uh, for me, the worstproduct of the year was the, uh,
Apple Vision Pro.
And I should caveat this bysaying I still am very bullish
about extended reality and verymuch believe that it will be.

(53:44):
the kind of what does representthe next era of computing.
Uh, but I, the reason I thinkthe Apple vision pro is the
worst product of the year isthat it, I, I believe is the
represents the wrong directionin that space.
And Apple's invested so muchtime and money and, um,

(54:09):
technology into this specificdirection of trying to recreate
reality in a headset that Ithink it's going to weigh them
down like this technical debtthat they're going to incur from
this product is going to persistfor years and it's going to slow
them down in terms of theirability to innovate in the space

(54:29):
and I think by consequence slowthe whole space down.
So, That's why I think it's,it's the worst product of the
year because it's going to, youknow, not only hurt Apple, but
hurt the whole space, uh, in thenear term, uh, because Apple,
you know, is such an importantplayer in the technology space.

(54:52):
Yeah.

Joachim (54:55):
of being such an important and gigantic company
is one of their missteps.
It will negatively affecteveryone.
So anytime something else comesalong, a small innovator that
might've cracked something, wewill always view it through.
Literally through the lens ofthe Apple VR failure, which is
why I think, you know, when theNewton failed, the PDA, pen
based PDA, took a while torecover from that.

(55:18):
Even the iPhone was very riskybecause everyone said, Oh,
remember when you guys did thatPDA?
Oh my God, don't do that again,So, yeah, I never thought about
The fallout from that being muchbroader and being quite, quite
bad having such powerful peoplefail.
Yeah.

Ernest (55:35):
How about on the good side?
Do you have a, uh, product youenjoyed this year?

Joachim (55:40):
Yeah, so this year, I, I'm always, I don't know what
I'm doing wrong with my apparelchoices.
Mostly pants and trousers, I, Ijust seem to always buy not good
stuff.
Just before we started talkinghere about our, uh, what
products do we think for 2025,I'd realized that there's a

(56:00):
company that makes trousers thatI've been happy with for the
last year.
And I didn't even notice it.
I bought pretty premium stuffand they will just, they just
break and are not very strong.
I had mission workshop pantsthat I really loved.
They just started shredding.
I had ether apparel trousersthat I had also, again, pricey

(56:21):
stuff, hoping that it would begood.
Um, but then this brand cameacross my radar as I was doing
research, which was Outlier NYC.
I think I didn't appreciate howgood that product actually was
because until I started thinkingabout it.
They make all kinds of apparel,they, I think they'd like to
class themselves as kind of thetechnical apparel, you know,

(56:43):
practical, uh, stealthy for theinner superhero, whatever, you
know, that you have in yourmind.
So I bought first a pair of whatthey call their future darts
pants, which are slightlyskinny.
And then I started reading toomuch Derek guy, and he was very
anti like tight clothes andtight suits.
Yeah, he's great.

(57:03):
And he would show these DanielCraig pictures where Daniel
Craig suit is way too small.
And he said, the clothes shouldhang off you and so on.
So and then I'm like, Looking atwhat people, you know, Japanese
lookbooks are doing, and I'mlike, oh wow, everyone's wearing
slightly looser trousers, and sothen I was like, I wonder if
Outlier does stuff.
So the pair of pants that I, thepair of pants that I eventually

(57:25):
bought, the pair of pants Ieventually bought were the
Strongworks.
Which are incredible, they're,um, not super tight, so they're
loose fitting pants.
Um, they're made of strungtwill, which is their name.
Um, the material that they use,which is a combination of, like,
nylon and elastate.

(57:46):
So it's like syntheticmaterials.
Uh, and one of the bits issuplex, which is from nylon.
Uh, and it's just this veryrobust material that has a, a
coating on it that allows it tobe a little bit water repellent
and it's just so good.
I just forget that they'rethere.
I just wear them and they'realways my go to because they're

(58:08):
such high quality.
I've not had any problems withthe fabric fraying or anything
like that.
It's all very breathable.
And so in the end, I've nowrealized I've bought like three
different styles of pant fromthis company, Outlier.
later on, I found out thatWilliam Gibson is a big fan of
the brand as well.
So now I feel totally justifiedin my fandom.
But anyway a long story aboutbasically pants that finally fit

(58:31):
me and I feel comfortable with,but I would recommend them.
They're a little bit pricier,but I was buying pricey things.
I should say, I was buyingexpensive things that didn't
have the quality to back themup.
And so far, these are Uh,costly, they cost a lot, but it
feels like that's because thematerials are good.
They are made in New York City.
Those fabrics have been wovenwith care.

(58:52):
I mean, someone is taking thetime to make good clothes that,
that are, uh, robust to dailylife and daily use.
Um, so I'm very happy with themand yeah, I didn't appreciate it
until I sat down.
I was thinking, what is thisproduct that I use every day?
And it's kind of faded into thebackground and I don't
appreciate it enough.
Yeah.
Here we are.
How about, yeah.
How about you?

Ernest (59:13):
That's a great one.
Well, I actually, um, I'll sharewhat I think is the most, to me,
the most important product ofthe year.
And then I'll share a favoriteas well.
So.
Kind of building on my pointabout the Apple Vision Pro being
what I think is the worstproduct of the year.
I think the most product,important product of the year is
actually the Ray Ban Meta SmartGlasses, the Generation 2 that

(59:33):
they released this past year.
Again, I'm not saying those aremy favorite products, but I, I
think they're the most importantbecause I actually think that
they, with that product, havedefined the form factor for
extended reality.
Uh, I think a lot of people,including Meta, have been
surprised by how positivelythey've been received by even

(59:53):
kind of non techie people.
Uh, and so I think they've cometo realize that this sort of,
uh, you know, blends into thebackground form factor, low
tech, relatively low tech ascompared to Apple's very high
tech approach and relativelyaffordable, um, Product is the

(01:00:18):
way to go.
You know that the Ray BanMetaSmart Glasses don't have a
display.
They are working on a versionthat will have a very simple
rudimentary display.
But, you know, I think they'verealized you don't need to have,
you don't need to try torecreate a reality, which was
Apple's old approach.
Instead, Just let peopleactually see reality through the

(01:00:38):
glasses and use other inputs,uh, like audio, uh, and maybe
some haptic sort of, uh,approaches to, as the interface.
So I think that is the successof that product has been really
important.
So I think that's the mostimportant product in terms of
the favorite you've inspired mein terms of emphasizing

(01:00:59):
trousers, or I would say pants,but I know our European
listeners would all laugh atthat.
But, um, so there too, I've thispast year have discovered, um,
two great products.
Trousers.
So, uh, one for more kind ofeveryday wear is from a small
brand called Orslo.
It's a small Japanese brand.

(01:01:21):
Um, you'll have to find, youknow, they're carried by
boutiques.
Uh, there's one in Seattle,actually, a boutique called
Glasswing that

Joachim (01:01:29):
oh yeah.
Yeah.

Ernest (01:01:30):
yeah.
Yeah.
a really nice shop.
But what I, so Orslohistorically has focused on
denim.
Um, But generally in like highquality textiles and so that's
one of the things I reallyappreciate, appreciate about
these pants.
So specifically, their Frenchwork pants, I believe is what
they're called because theyoffer quite a few different

(01:01:52):
pants.
And the reason I love thesepants is one, the materials are
very nice, but two, they featurethis.
I think they call it just afifth pocket.
It's a pocket that's rightalongside the hip.
And it's, I guess, maybehistorically would have been
used as a place to put yourbrush as a French painter.

Joachim (01:02:14):
Yeah.

Ernest (01:02:15):
the great thing is that it's sized just right to fit an
iPhone, including I have theiPhone.
15 pro max.
So it even fits the max sizephones.
I don't know if it would fit the16 pro max, which I believe is a
little bit bigger, but it's notonly does it fit it, it fits it
in just the right spot so thatyou almost forget that you have

(01:02:38):
it on you.
Uh, cause you know, that'ssomething that I find very
challenging with all of, youknow, my traditional pants is if
you put it in the front pocket,it's just really uncomfortable.
I find that it also, you know,pulls your trousers down.
If you put it in your backpocket, you can't sit down.
So, uh, this location on theside is just right.

(01:03:01):
Easy to access, but, um, justgets out of the way.
So, for everyday trousers, Ireally enjoy these Orslo French
Pants.
work pants.
And then for outdoors, uh,there's a small, again, a small
Japanese brand called YamaTomichi.
It translates to mountain androad.

(01:03:23):
And they offer these fantastichiking pants.
Uh, and, uh, they're calledtheir five pocket pants.
Uh, and they offer a fewdifferent versions.
The differences are all just inthe materials.
But again, the reason I lovethem is that they have this
additional pocket.
And in the case of the YamatoMichi pants, the pocket is on

(01:03:45):
both sides.
So, you know, whether in the, orslow, it's only on the right
side and the Yamato Michi, theyoffer it on both sides.
So what, you know, whetheryou're righty or lefty, you can
find a just the perfect place toput your phone.
In the case of Yamato Michi, theplacement's even better such
that you can even like jog andyou won't you know, notice that

(01:04:08):
the phone is there.
It's incredible how perfect theplacement is.
Yeah, you could sit down evenwith the, uh, the phone in your
pants.
Um, and again, it's, they'vereally thought it through where
the positioning is low enoughthat you can have a backpack
with a hip strap on and it won'tget in the way of that but, um,

(01:04:30):
high enough that it's easy toaccess and won't bounce around
if you're walking or even, youknow, maybe light jogging.
So, um, the Yamato Michi 5pocket pants.
My preferred versions are whatthey call their DW version,
which stands for dual weave,which is very lightweight, but

(01:04:51):
still works in a range ofconditions.
And their merino wool version,um, which is a little heavier
because it's, it's merino wool,but oh man, for this time of
year, it's just so nice.
And they, the merino woolversion, I think looks nice
enough to be worn in, you know,even fancy casual sort of dress

(01:05:18):
occasions.
So, uh, uh, you know, we'llprovide links to all these
things, but, um, I, I've lovedthem and, uh, you know, kind of
like outlier small companiesmaking great products.

Joachim (01:05:29):
I think what's really great is when listeners go on to
their website, is the, theweight of the trousers is
visible in the, the, thecatalog.
So you can actually just go,yeah, like you said, the Merino
is, weighs in at 427 grams asopposed to the normal five
pocket pant, which is 239 grams.
So it's, you know, It's prettyinformative, like just straight

(01:05:50):
off the bat, like they'realready helping you navigate the
complexity of what they'redoing, but it's immediately
comprehensible.
Like it's the most importantpiece of information, you know,
if you,

Ernest (01:06:00):
that's one of the things I love about Yama to meet you is
that they, you can tell thepeople that make the products,
love the products they make.
They really geek and They'resuper honest about the pros and
cons, you know, so, so manybrands, you know, it's like, Oh,
every single one of theirproducts is the best ever.
You know, so how are yousupposed to know which one is

(01:06:22):
right for your needs?
Whereas, you know, you're not tomeet, she's very open about the
doubt, you know, shortcomingsof, of one product, you know,
versus another.
So, um, they really help, helpyou kind of get to that, the
right product for your needs.
Just two caveats I'll say is forYamato Michi.
One, um, they do sell online andthey do ship overseas, which is

(01:06:45):
pretty unusual for a smallJapanese brand,

Joachim (01:06:47):
that is,

Ernest (01:06:48):
but, um, their products sell out very quickly and their
five pocket pants are verypopular.
So you kind of have to, youknow, they do publish a schedule
of when they're going to postinventory.
So, you know, in advance, butfor a lot of the products, you
have to kind of Camp out at, inmy case, uh, in our case, like 2

(01:07:10):
a.
m.
time is when they released theirproducts.
Uh, and then the second caveatis just sizing wise.
Uh, their products are, um, kindof Japanese sizing.
So you'll most likely have to goup one size to get a Western
size.
Uh, but outside of those small,you know, challenges, I, I'm

(01:07:31):
just such a huge brand, a fan ofboth brands, uh, Yamato Michi
and Orslo.

Joachim (01:07:37):
nice.
I love that.

Ernest (01:07:40):
uh, pant or trouser talk.

Joachim (01:07:43):
Yeah, exactly.

Ernest (01:07:44):
Good way to end the year.
Um, but, uh, I think that doesit for us, you know, so thank
you so much for joining us overthe course of our first year of
doing this learn, make, learnthing.
Um, it's certainly been alearning experience for us and
we hope it's offered you someinsight or at the very least
some food for thought as well.
Uh, and speaking of which wewant to hear from you.

(01:08:05):
So whether it's feedback,questions, suggestions for
future episodes, please sendthem on through to us, uh, at
learnmakelearn at gmail.
com or on threads atLearnMakeLearnShow, all one
word.
So thanks again for joining usin 2024 and we hope you'll
follow us into 2025 for the nextLearnMakeLearn.

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