March 20, 2025 • 43 mins
We return from hibernation to talk AI nonsense, critique the review industrial complex, promote a return to RSS, and share a raft of recommendations!
JOACHIM ON AI NONSENSE – 01:52
Previous Discussion of Humane AI (starts at 18:34)
Humane Set to Brick $700 ‘AI Pins’
I outsourced my memory to an AI pin and all I got was fanfiction
Ben Thompson: DeepSeek FAQ
Previous Discussion on LLMs & Constraints (starts at 02:33)
“Low-Resource” Text Classification
ERNEST ON THE REVIEW INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX – 09:41
Motor Trend: 2021 MINI Cooper SE
America’s Commute to Work Is Getting Longer (paywall)
CNET: 2022 Mini Cooper SE
James Hoffmann’s reviews
Sigma BF Review: Beautiful Foolishness
By contrast ... I took 1,000 photos with the Sigma BF
GxAce YouTube channel
Chris Harris on the Mercedes-AMG A45 S
How Ferrari Spins
IMPLICATIONS FOR PRODUCT CREATORS? – 26:07
Americans Are Obsessed With the Wrong Trucks
TELO MT1
Remembering Nike’s Sandy Bodecker
JOACHIM ON RSS & MORE – 31:37
Inoreader
Catherine Shannon: Your phone is why you don’t feel sexy
Tracy Durnell: In praise of the hundred page idea
In Praise of Shadows
Kenya Hara: White
Timothy Snyder: On Tyranny
Harry G. Frankfurt: On Bullshit
Perfect Days
Perfect Day (Komorebi Version)
SHOULD WE START A DISCORD? – 41:22
CLOSING – 42:02
****
Rant, rave or otherwise via email at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or on Threads @LearnMakeLearnShow.
CREDITS
Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com
Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ernest (00:04):
Hello and welcome to Learn Make Learn where we share
qualitative and quantitativeperspectives on products to help
you make better.
My name is Ernest Kim and I'mjoined by my friend and co-host,
Joachim Groeger.
Hey Joachim, how's it going?
Joachim (00:18):
I am doing well.
I'm happy because we arebreaking the seal.
2025.
This is it.
We've done it.
We're in 2025 and we'rerecording.
This is thE first step for Lmiclearn to be in the next year,
which means we've been, we willcan say, officially, we've been
going for two years.
We can round up, but I'm veryhappy that we're here and I'm
(00:40):
happy that we're here with anoff the cuff because I feel like
that's the easiest way to breakthe seal.
How are you?
Ernest (00:47):
Good, thanks.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Also excited to, uh, kind of getback into our recording and, you
know, as.
JohE just mentioned, uh, we havehad a bit of a winter hiatus.
I guess maybe you could call ita winter holiday, uh, but this,
this is episode 26 and today,um, like Jo JohE mentioned,
we're bringing you another ofour shorter format off the cuff
(01:10):
episodes.
Where we highlight and discuss ahandful of products or ideas
that have caught our attention.
And I just wanted to note thatwe will absolutely continue to
bring you longer format, indepth conversations and
interviews hopefully in the nearfuture.
But, um, and off the cuffepisode seemed like the best way
to just kind of ease our wayback into the saddle after our,
(01:31):
uh, extended winter break.
Um, also wanted to mention thatas ever.
We want to hear from you, soplease share any thoughts,
questions, or topic suggestions,suggestions, sorry.
With us at Learn makelearn@gmail.com or on thread at
Learn make, learn show, all oneword.
(01:52):
Alright, with that intro out ofthe way, let's move on to our
off the cuff conversation.
Jo, you wanna get us started?
Joachim (02:01):
Yeah, we, um, you know what?
I'm gonna try and be reallyrapid.
Super efficient and then we'llsee which ones like pique your
interest Ernest.
And maybe we'll dig a little toyou because I have a few here.
So, I'm trying to figure out.
As well in the things I'm gonnatalk about, connections to
things we've talked about in thepast, in previous episodes, and
(02:22):
because things have happenedthat have made me think, oh, we
actually did cover this in aprevious episode on passing.
So it'd be nice to see theconnection to where we are
because it's been a while,again, three months, and then
it's been more to those earlyepisodes.
So we talked about humane ai uh,in a previous episode.
So they recently announced lastmonth that they would be
(02:43):
shutting down and all of theirHumane AI pins will be bricked.
So if you recall, humane AI pinis the little device that you
could clipped to your clothes,and it would use LLMs and.
Blah blah.
And magic and fairy dust to makethings happen.
And it would be amazing.
And the thing that didn't work,it had terrible battery life.
I mean, these are ex applepeople that should have known
(03:05):
better and just bombed.
And then they tried to sell thecompany and it's done.
So they're gonna shut, shutdown.
And all of their pins that costabout$700 are just gonna cease
to function.
And these units are.
Pretty much useless without theserver infrastructure that sits
(03:25):
in the cloud.
And so that's kind of a reallydumb end to something that was,
you know, hyped up as thisincredible, the future of
everything.
Um, and so connected to that,um, I stumbled on a.
Review for a new wearable thatreminds me a lot of the humane
(03:46):
AI pin, and it's called the B.
Um, it's very new.
It looks like a Fitbit and ithas its whole., twist on all of
these LLM things and AI nonsenseis that it records everything
that you say and it's gonnacreate these summaries of what's
happened during your day.
So if you're in a meeting, it'sgonna listen to every word
that's happening and it's gonnasummarize stuff.
(04:06):
And it's pretty, I mean, numberone, very creepy, very worrying
from an information securityperspective, privacy
perspective.
I mean, the people that you'reinteracting with are gonna be
saying sensitive pieces ofinformation to you, but it turns
out.
The Verge Review has revealedthat it is terrible at doing
this.
So, um, he, the reviewer wearsthis device and, um, he recounts
(04:31):
that he was in a few Zoommeetings, chatted with a
coworker at the office, met upwith a friend for dinner and
committed home, and then helooked at the transcript and the
B.
App told him that number onequote, you are having a
conversation with someone abouta patient of yours who lives in
Louisiana.
patient appears to be causingharm to another person.
(04:53):
No doctor's offices, nothing.
This is a Verge tech writer.
Okay?
And the second summary was.
Victoria and her friend weredriving reminiscing about
childhood memories.
They talked about a place calledPT and Malcolm Buttons, which
seemed to be familiar locationsor references from their past.
There was a rocky sound at somepoint, perhaps indicating a
bumpy road or an issue with thecar.
(05:13):
This was all completely, I mean,there.
Elements that are true.
Like he was driving and he tookthe train, so there was a bump,
but my goodness, like how bad isthis?
So it's incredible to see thatwe in, you know, last month
Humane AI shuts down shamefullyand bricks, all of its divides
shamefully.
And here we've got the nextround.
(05:34):
Everyone's ready.
Be wearables, we're gonna listento everything.
You can transcribe it in cloudand LLM magic and blah, blah,
blah.
So have we learned any lessons?
I don't know.
Maybe that's.
the first thing is can we pleasejust learn the lessons of the
past?
Um, and so yeah, that was aquick thing on that.
And then just another bit thatwe talked about still related to
LLMs.
(05:54):
And I'll pass off to you Ernest,and you can throw in some stuff
into the mix.
But, this is the year ofefficiency and large language
models.
So this is now the big thingeveryone's talking about,
because DeepSeek, the TinyChinese outfit, basically spent
a little bit of time tweakingthese LLMs and got them to run
on less powerful hardware, lessmemory, more efficient, and all
(06:17):
of those things.
Um, and it's unsurprising.
It's unsurprising because I.
I dunno, it feels like the earlydays of the American automobile
industry competing against theJapanese where they just had
bigger and bigger cars andbigger and bigger engines.
And then the Japanese come alongand say like, actually you just
need this small engine and thiscar, and people will love it
post oil crisis.
So that, uh, deep seekrevelation was pretty to me
(06:40):
unsurprising because we hadmentioned in the previous
episode about using very, very,um, simple techniques to get.
Powerful performance.
And one of those things wasusing compression for text
classification and also imageclassification.
So when I heard the deep seeknews, I was thinking, look,
people know this.
We just need to go back to theroots of being a little bit more
frugal and mindful about how webuild things and think about
(07:02):
those efficiencies.
They just did the work, they didthe basic stuff that everyone
should be doing instead ofburning billions and billions of
dollars as OpenAI has beendoing, um, and continues to do
and suggests that we neednuclear power plants.
This small team of like fivepeople just said, actually, if
you just code well.
don't need all this stuff.
So those two things together arelike a little tidbit that I've
(07:25):
been, uh, like I wanted toshare.
And we'll have links to allthese stories again and links to
the previous episodes where wetalked about that stuff.
But yeah.
Have you been following all ofthis?
LLM?
Uh, well, I don't, I don't wannacall it hype.
It's also like it doesn't feelright, just noise.
Ernest (07:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
I certainly am not an expert inthe area, but I.
When the story came out aboutDeep Cica, it definitely
reminded me of your comment fromthat, uh, our prior episode
where you talked about the factthat, um, there are so much,
there are far more efficientways to achieve these things
that are being done with, um,just, it seems like the least
(08:03):
efficient tools, uh, meanspossible, uh, by most American
companies.
So, um, it was, uh, exciting tosee that, uh, I, I mean, I
think.
It's a great wake up call.
I, I think a lot of people were,um, shocked by it.
Uh, and so hopefully we'll seethings, um, change for the
(08:25):
better.
Just because, you know, when yourealize you don't have to
actually spend all this money,not just on the equipment, but
on the electricity as well, um,and get as good results, I think
that's gonna open a lot ofpeople's eyes.
Joachim (08:40):
Yeah.
For sure.
Ernest (08:42):
And then the humane thing as well.
I mean, it, it is another pointthat you've made, um, across a
few episodes, just this, Iforget the term you used, but,
um, it wasn't fragility, butjust this dependence on.
Extended infrastructure beyondthe physical product that, um,
does make your product sofragile.
(09:03):
Um, you know, we see it withHumane, but we also saw it with,
um, the other one.
Uh, which one
Joachim (09:10):
Rabbit R
Ernest (09:11):
Yeah.
Rabbit.
Yeah, same idea, but where wereally, the hardware is just the
front end to.
Stuff that's happening in thecloud.
And once uh, the company startsto get, um, fallen hard times,
then all that can go away.
And you, that hardware you feellike you paid for, it just
becomes a brick.
So, um, kind of seeing chickenscome home to roost, I guess, you
(09:34):
know,
Joachim (09:34):
Yeah, maybe that's my secret theme actually, is like,
look at the stuff that we weretalking about.
We were right.
Ernest (09:41):
oh.
If you want to trade off, then Iguess I could.
Jump in.
There were a co couple of thingsI thought I'd highlight, but
under the theme of, I don't knowwhat the right way to explain
this would be, but just my, uh,I've, I feel like we, we are in
this time now where.
Product reviews have becomereally, really important because
(10:05):
we're inundated by products.
So, you know, not a surprise,people are turning to reviews to
help them make better buyingdecisions.
But I think what that's led tois this sort of a review
industrial complex, just this,um, army of people, particularly
on social media, who are makenow making a living, reviewing
(10:25):
products across all differentcategories and.
The concern I have, the thingthat I'm seeing that I'm really
disappointed by is that becausenow for so many of these people,
this is a career they'veresorted to just sort of review
by spec sheet.
I, recently was looking at somereviews for cars.
(10:48):
And also saw a review for camerathat I'll talk about more in
just a minute.
But the overriding sentiment Iheard across both of those was
depressingly similar, and itreally boiled down to this
product should have the sameexact features as every other
product in its segment orcategory.
You know,, here are these kindof.
Okay.
Generic specifications that I asa reviewer have come to expect
(11:10):
from every product in thiscategory.
And if this new product doesn'tdeliver on, doesn't check off on
all those boxes, then that justmakes it very easy for me to say
this is not a good product.
because when, as a reviewer,your primary objective is just
to turn out as much content aspossible so that you can
maximize your ad inventory andad revenue.
I think this is just naturallythe outcome, this review by spec
(11:32):
sheet approach because you justdon't have the time to actually
use and experience the products,and I think that.
The thing that's disappointed meis that alright, that's the case
in this sort of new media, butthis has been something that's
been happening in, you know,maybe so-called old media as
well as they've been subjectedto these similar sorts of
(11:53):
pressures of just sort of, um,tracking clicks.
And one example that's close tohome for me is, um.
I own a, I can't remember whatyear it is.
It's I think maybe a 2023 MiniCooper se, which is the electric
version of the two door MiniFully Battery Electric.
And I, it kind of struck melooking back at some of the
(12:15):
reviews for that car, how Ithink Miss leading they can be
for people who might have beenin the car market.
The SC is actually no longeravailable mini's in this weird
period right now where theydon't currently offer a.
Electric version of theirtwo-door car only of their
bigger countrymen.
And there's lots of differentreasons for that that have to do
(12:36):
with, um, tariffs and all kindsof other stuff we could talk
about in a different episode.
But so.
At the time though, uh, the sethe two door was the only, uh,
electric model that they offeredand MotorTrend in their review
review, um, echoed the sentimentthat I saw across pretty much
(12:56):
every review that was, um, outat the time that the car was
available.
So, I'll, I'll just read.
Uh, a snippet from MotorTrendreview of the 2021 Mini Cooper
se.
And the interesting thing isthey just copy and pasted the
same exact paragraph into thereview of the 2022 Cooper Se and
I, I believe the 2023 as well.
(13:16):
So.
Quoting here, quote, perhaps theCooper's most significant
drawback is its limited range.
The electric mini can traveljust 110 miles on a charge,
making it the lowest range.
Ev currently on sale its closestcompetitors to 40 kilowatt per
hour.
Nissan Leaf and Hyundai Ionicachieve 149 and 170 miles
(13:37):
respectively.
And I, to me that's just like aclassic example of review by
spec sheet because it's like, ohYeah.
look at these specs.
This doesn't deliver on thespecs.
But the reality is this is a,this data, um, from, uh, wall
Street Journal article from 2023where they noted that the
average distance to work as ofthe end of 2023 was um, 27
(14:00):
miles.
And that's the average.
I think most urban people areliving in city centers, which is
kind of mini's core audience.
Their commutes are probably muchshorter than that.
But let's say you have theaverage commute, so roughly 50
miles total, both ways.
You know, you've still gotplenty of range to work with
after that 50 mile commute.
So it is just, uh, such a, uh, Ithink thoughtless comment to
(14:25):
make, and it's just a functionof, oh, we don't have time to
actually drive this thing andtest it in the real world.
So we're just gonna cite thisnumber off a spec sheet because,
you know, it just makes us looksmart.
Now I, I'll contrast that with,of all publication cnet, which
is now like a content farm, butthey, um, uh, to their credit
(14:45):
back in 2023, oh no, this isactually, it was either 2022 or
2023.
They published, um, a long termreview of the Mini Cooper SE So
it, the piece was titled 2022Mini Cooper SE Long-Term Wrap
Up.
And, uh, the subhead was after ayear of city living, our
electric Mini's short rangeisn't what we'll remember most.
(15:09):
Um, and, uh, I don't know.
I'll, I'll read some of the, um,just the beginning of that
review.
So they say quoting them.
Now, people love to hate theelectric Mini Cooper SE for its
short driving range, and I wouldreplace people With reviewers
because it was really reviewerswho love to hate the electricity
for short driving range.
(15:30):
But uh, continuing on with theirpiece.
But focus on that 114 mile EPAestimate and you'll miss the
car's strongest selling points.
No one is buying a mini gas orelectric for long distance
cruising.
Put the Cooper SE into serviceas a daily driver in a congested
city and its goodness willquickly win you over.
So they actually went to theeffort of.
(15:53):
Driving the car in the, um,context in which it was
intended, and they came to loveit.
And they, you know, I love thatpoint they made, which is that
the short range isn't what we'llremember most.
And that's absolutely been myexperience as owner as well.
It's my favorite car by a longshot of, of the cars I've owned.
(16:13):
Um, and knowing what it wasintended for, which is as a city
car, it's so amazingly.
Perfect for that role, and it'sjust such a joy to drive.
So I, you know, I think we justsee so much of this these days,
this sort of review by specsheet, which leads to, I think,
many people to just discount alot of products that they might
(16:38):
love.
Just because this sort of reviewindustrial comp complex, um, is
not incentivized to actuallyspend time on their reviews.
I'd say that the counter exampleto that is James Hoffman, who
we've talked about in the past,who has this incredible.
Uh, coffee focused YouTubechannel.
Um, he's also a, anaward-winning barista and also
(17:01):
has a company that, uh, roastsand sells coffee.
But he does incredible reviewson his site where he actually
takes the time to really dig outon the spec, you know, geek out
on the specifications, but thento really use the product in the
way it's intended.
Um, and I love how in a lot ofhis reviews.
He'll also talk about the joy orthe lack thereof of using a
(17:25):
given product, not just thespecifications.
Um, but he's very much theexception, uh, rather than the
rule, which is just this sort ofreally lowest common
denominator, bottom of thebarrel, sort of, uh, review by
spec sheet.
And to me, the.
Thing that disappoints me isthat that leads to lowest common
denominator products because,you know, as a product maker,
(17:49):
you're incentivized to then justmake products that do adhere to
that you know, checklist.
Um, and you end up with a sea ofproducts that are all
effectively identical and thenall you have left to compete on
is price.
Um, so.
I would, this is I guess my, uh,soapboxing to really, um, push
(18:10):
people to go beyond thosesurface level reviews.
Um, I know it's difficultbecause it takes time and we're
all busy, but, I think probablythe best resource remains I.
Forums and you know, now more sodiscord channels, these sort of
hidden corners of the internetwhere people, who are really
interested in certain topicareas are willing to spend a lot
(18:33):
more time discussing the prosand cons of products in a way
that, you know, these sort of,um.
Social media reviewers are not.
one other example I'll give hereis, I don't know if you've seen
this Yohi, you may have, but uh,this new camera from Sigma
called the
Joachim (18:53):
is it the one that's, that's made out of like a solid
block of aluminum or something?
They machined it out of the,it's in incred, if that's the
one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Yeah,
Ernest (19:01):
that's the one.
And um, I saw a review of thatcamera.
On a YouTube channel called PETaix, which is actually a, I
think, a great channel.
It's folks from the old DPreview site,
Joachim (19:13):
Yeah.
Ernest (19:14):
which is a great, uh, site for, uh, digital or camera
reviews in general, but theyreviewed the Sigma bf and
essentially if you watch thatreview and we'll provide a link
to it, you can boil it down to,to, I wish this camera was like
all the other cameras I use.
It's like basically the reviewerkind of highlighting all the
things that the camera doesn'thave that his.
(19:34):
Pro his, you know, typicalcameras do.
And I just found it verydisappointing for that because
he was reviewing, you know, hewasn't reviewing what it was,
but he was reviewing what he wasused to using.
Um, and I just think it's such amiss because there's so many
things that that camera doesthat are so unique that, uh, I
think would bring a lot of joyto a lot of people.
(19:56):
So I think it's absolutely.
There is value to highlightingthe fact that maybe it doesn't
have some features that youmight find on typical cameras,
but here are the other thingsthat it does that those other
cameras don't do.
And so here's why you mightenjoy it, even though it doesn't
have those sort of typicalchecklist features.
So, uh, that, that's another onethat just kind of really struck
(20:17):
me as an example of.
The sort of product that is donea disservice by this kind of
review culture that we're inright now.
I don't know if
Joachim (20:25):
feel you.
I feel you, Ernest.
Legacy media became exactlythat.
Spec sheet type of thing.
And with internal combustionengines, it was zero to 60 was
the number one stat.
Right.
And then German manufacturersespecially, were just so honed
in on extracting everythingoutta the engine to get that
zero to 60 down to three secondsto, I mean, absolutely insane
(20:47):
numbers that make no sense.
And there's never any need forthat.
Ernest (20:50):
Right.
Joachim (20:51):
What was interesting about then the transition to the
YouTube personalities and thosepeople is that it felt like they
were authentic.
They were not part of.
The reviewing industrial complexas you put it.
They're their own people.
And, and that's why theirreviews were trustworthy.
They were enthusiasts and thatwas it.
And then they became brands andthen they had to worry about,
you know, making money andadvertising revenue and
(21:13):
everything.
Then they become legacy media.
So it's, it's not that the.
The platform or the medium isthe problem, is the fact that
the force towardscommercialization and then the
typical force of how youmonetize this stuff is through
advertising.
That's what ruins all of thesethings.
Um, so yeah, I agree.
It's very hard to find goodreviews that go beyond just
rattling off the, the stats.
(21:34):
And I think it's easy, right?
It's very easy to churn outthose reviews and make videos
quickly, especially for thesebig budget guys now who can
just, you know, they just gettheir army of minions to just.
Takes shots and do stuff.
And, but I find that also in thewatch review community, it has
become, I like the personalitiesand I don't wanna single anyone
out, but it is, it is quitetedious after a while where you
(21:58):
just, uh, the, it's this manymales across and it's like, how
does it feel?
Like, what does it, what's coolabout it?
What does it make you want to,you know, what is the vibe of
this thing?
And so to that.
My counterpoint to actually, I,you know, I don't, I'm not a
photographing enthusiast.
I don't have any fancy cameras,but I do follow this YouTube
(22:18):
channel called GX Ace, and thisperson does camera reviews and
they are like mini Blade Runnervignettes.
That is the only way I candescribe them.
He.
He will pick a pick camera thatis maybe not being produced
anymore.
Um, and he just takes fantasticpictures of them with, with
(22:41):
them.
And he's created this narrativethat he is speaking from the
future, maybe 20 years in thefuture, and.
He describes our present momentthrough that lens of being from
the future.
he's got this little narrativearc to it that's very,
inspiring, entertaining, and thepictures he takes are really
(23:03):
wonderful.
You get a great sense of.
Why this camera is so good,because it's, the picture is
what matters, not the specs.
It's like, what does it do?
You know?
So we'll link to that person's,they're very entertaining and,
um, immersive.
So that is a great counterpointto the, to the spec sheet thing.
Like I, I don't think he evenmentions megapixels on the
(23:26):
sensor or something.
They're very inspirational.
I think that is.
That is where the medium shouldbe.
It is this, you let meexperience what this thing lets
you do and then that willinspire me potentially.
Yeah.
And that's why I like JamesHoffman as well.
He's also very unromantic aboutthings.
I think you need that as well.
There's very grounded, nocoffee, pun intended, but there
it is.
(23:47):
Grounded approach to his coffeereviewing machine, uh, when he
reviews coffee machines.
I trusted his review.
So I think it's about, yeah,it's hard to trust anyone now in
these review cycles.
And so of course they, theydon't want to ruin their brand.
They don't wanna upset anyone.
So the spec sheet is.
The lowest common denominator.
That is the statement that isunemotional and not subject to
(24:11):
debate.
Right.
But if someone said, I took apicture and it just doesn't have
the right feeling to it, they'llbe like, oh my God, what are you
doing?
This is terrible.
You know?
Um, actually on that note, thatreminds me, I remember, um.
Chris Harris is a car reviewer.
He also ran a YouTube channeland I can't remember which car
manufacturer it was.
(24:32):
It could have been oh,Lamborghini or someone like
that, like a pretty big orMercedes, one of those.
I'll try and remember and we canmaybe link to it, but he
describes the fact that he hasbeen throughout his career, very
honest about.
Car reviews and he had a momentwhere he was describing the
typical car review circuit now,and he is just one of the
(24:53):
reviews there.
And then there are all theseinfluences there.
And I think he was driving aMercedes, a MG.
And it has all these modes in itthat allow the computer to help
you drive it so you can driftthe car without much skill.
And so they, all theseinfluences drive it.
They love it because they're.
They're not professionaldrivers, they're just
(25:15):
personalities.
And he commented on the factthat that's the majority of car
reviews of that, and Mercedesloves having them on track.
And then he hops in the car andhe switches everything off.
And then he drives the cararound the track and he gives an
honest review.
He says, this car is prettyboring.
It's, you know, it's not verygood.
So it's, it's out there, youknow, and that we understand
(25:38):
that something has gone awrywith the.
What the power of YouTube was,which was authenticity.
It wasn't a typical broadcastmedium.
It was a very flat democratizedbroadcast medium.
Um, and now it's just tv.
Like everything else it feelslike.
So, but you have to find thosepockets and they exist.
And so I, yeah, we will helppeople find these little pockets
and I'm sure that will spur theYouTube algorithm to pick other
(26:01):
things that you can stumble onthat are interesting.
And that's the way we fightback.
It's resistance.
Ernest (26:07):
Well, you know, on that point I was starting to think,
okay, knowing that it'll take awhile for that change to happen,
if ever, you know, understandingthat this is now the, the state
of affairs, what could you as aproduct person in the business
of making products do aboutthat?
And what I started to, get towas the idea that it almost
(26:27):
means that you have to.
Make your product so extremethat it just forces reviewers to
break out of that spec sheetreview by spec sheet paradigm.
And you know, I think the, um,Sigma BF is a good example of
that, is just so different fromtraditional digital cameras that
(26:50):
it really does force you as areviewer to approach it
differently because.
Otherwise, you'll just end uplike that pix review, which is
really boring and just saying,oh, it doesn't do all these
things that my other cameras do.
You know?
So it forces you to, to approachit in a different way.
Another example that I, I sawrecently that I'm really excited
about is this little mini truck.
(27:11):
I don't know if you've seenthis, this, it's from a startup
company called Telo, TELO, andit's called the MT one, and the
line that everyone's repeating,which I'm sure they've.
Uh, given them is it's as shortas a two door mini Cooper, but
has five seats and a bed that'sessentially as big as a standard
pickup.
(27:32):
Uh, the, it's a remarkable featof packaging.
Um, it's, it's not commerciallyavailable yet, but they just,
uh, in the last few weeksstarted, um, giving people an
opportunity to drive it.
Reviewers.
And, you know, there again, it'ssomething that.
You know,'cause the discoursearound pickups is really also
(27:53):
just so stupid.
If you've ever looked at reviewsfor pickup trucks, it's so this
classic review by spec sheet,oh, it doesn't tow 7,000 pounds,
so it's not a real pickup, youknow, it's like, God, gimme a
freaking break.
And so this forces reviewersoutside of that just, uh, milk
toasts spec sheet reviewparadigm, because it's just so
(28:17):
different.
So.
That feels like, you know, maybethat's, at least, I'm sure
there's other ways to do it too,but that's one way to break out
of this, um, construct becauseotherwise, like I said, the
other way is just lower pricing,which is just a road to nowhere,
right.
So, um, I think this, and it'sobviously scary as well to do
(28:40):
something that's reallydifferent and breaks out of the
norm and to a, um, a significantway.
But it feels like it's almostessential now to do that so that
your product doesn't get lost inthe shuffle.
Joachim (28:53):
It reminds me, I think we referenced this a few
episodes ago, but Sandy Bo'swork on Nike Espb is kind of the
great playbook of how to, Imean, it's, he has the, the.
The machinery of Nike behind himand the marketing machinery of
Nike, but kind of bypasses allof that to create a brand that
feels more authentic and is ableto connect directly with the
community.
(29:13):
So I feel like another approachis really to start focusing more
on, I have this very focusedidea and I will first find the
people that are interested inbeing part of that and maybe
bring them along for thatjourney.
So it's interesting'cause youmentioned that company Telo, the
first thing on the top of thatpage is actually join our
Discord server.
(29:34):
So I'm gonna speculate, but thisis how I would play is like, I
know this product is not gonnaappeal to everyone.
This is not a mass market thing.
It's an electric pickup truckthat looks quite funky.
It looks really cute.
I do like it and its footprintis tiny.
Um, and yeah, so everyone'sgonna hop on the Discord server
and they're gonna connect witheach other and go be like, oh,
you like small trucks that areelectric?
Cool.
(29:54):
I like these things as well.
And, and then you have this.
Thing that is a groundswellbuilt around a product.
Um, and I think that's kind ofinteresting.
It's a very, well, it's an oldschool approach and a new school
approach because you can use thetechnology to build these
connections across people,across continents and actually
figure out a lot about what theyactually care about.
And, um, you could even drawthem into the, the process of
(30:16):
how this product's gonna emerge.
So yeah, truck discourses issome of the, I mean, that's the
thing that's interesting about,um, actually Ford as a prime
example, like they, they didactually go the other way,
right?
They, the F-150 is there andthen beyond there's more, but
then they also have the, theyhave the Maverick, which is that
tiny, tiny pickup truck, whichis really cute and is enough.
(30:40):
It's like the way the F-150 wasin the eighties or
Ernest (30:43):
Mm-hmm.
Joachim (30:44):
Um, and then that's pretty interesting that they
were, they went all the way downand it's, it has none of the
typical truck features, but it'sgot a bed and it's got five,
five seats and everything thatyou'd want to have from it, and
it's looks pretty practical.
That was an interesting counter,you know, a response to the
whole, bigger, bigger,
Ernest (31:03):
Right, and it's been.
Joachim (31:04):
went the other way.
Yeah.
And it's been pretty successful.
Ernest (31:07):
Yeah, that Maverick has been enormously successful.
It's, it's just so funny how.
Uh, companies and industries getstuck in these ruts of just
believing their own bs, youknow,
Joachim (31:20):
Yeah.
Ernest (31:21):
and, and, uh, just not listening to what their
customers are looking for.
Uh, but, but that was all I had,that, that kind of theme of this
kind of review industrialcomplex and what's that's
leading, what that's leading to,and how maybe as people making
products, we can break outtathat.
But, um, I think you, it soundedlike you had some other things
you wanted to highlight as well.
Joachim (31:40):
I had a few things.
So I know a lot of people aredisconnecting from the day to
day of the, of the news cycle,which I think is fine.
The way I've been trying toprocess this is I, I'm trying to
focus more on a, first of all,productive and not keeping my
eyes and ears closed to wayswhere there's a moment where I
could probably contribute in onedirection in to make things to
(32:02):
ameliorate things and be less,be less worse.
So be aware of those things, butthen also having the long view.
Uh, so that means.
Actually trying to work onfiguring out longer run
solutions for the problems thatwe face in general, societal
problems, not the ones of thepolitical establishment, but
just things that are on my mind,um, and trying to avoid these
(32:27):
gotcha headlines.
I'm gonna call it the New YorkTimes Industrial Complex.
Is this the, the way they'vekind of been passing the news in
the first time we had a Trumpadministration, it was always
this kind of like, let's counthow many lies, or, you know, oh,
he, that's not quite correctbecause it turns out blah, blah,
or Elon Musk is wrong, thatthere are over a hundred
thousand people who are ahundred years old or whatever.
There was this whole, dissectionof why he must be wrong about
(32:51):
the ages of people, because theydon't understand that in COBOL,
the way dates are done isdifferent from things and you
gotta, oh yeah.
So it turns out like, you know,Unix starts in 1970 at zero, but
COBOL starts in 1870, so blah,blah, blah.
Who cares?
If you want the summary, it'slike people are gonna get harmed
by these things, and it doesn'tmatter like what the stats are
and if the numbers are notright, who cares?
(33:11):
Like protect people.
You don't need the rest of it.
This doesn't help me solve thesebigger problems.
Long introduction to base, theidea of how do I start curating
a world that I can actuallyfocus on more long view things.
And so I found that, um, thething that's really helped me is
having an RSS reader and, um.
Being very directed in who Ifollow and people that are
(33:33):
discussing longer view things orwebsites that focus on longer
things.
So RSS is a really old fashionedtechnology.
We use it for the podcast aswell.
It's just a feed that updatesthat you can read from any type
of app, and it will populate itwith the latest things that a
website is publishing.
So it could be any websiteevery.
Major website has these, so youdon't have to rely on social
(33:54):
media.
This is the main thing thatsocial media always mixes.
The ads and the clickbait thisand the new headlines.
It's just really hard to getstuff so.
So the one that I'm using isthe, I think it's pronounced eno
rita INO reader.com.
And I have just been using thatas my primary point of getting
information.
(34:14):
And I've stumbled on so manyinteresting things as a result
of that.
Uh, every blogger that there areso many great bloggers out there
again.
I add them on the feed and I canjust be updated in all of the
things that they do.
Um, if you're fans of tkitki.org, who does links all the
time, he's a great source forother RSS feeds.
So he has a feed, you can usethat.
(34:34):
I would recommend doing thatbecause it helps you focus on
the things that you want to keeptrack of.
Yes.
I also have like one newspaperthat I follow and then, and
that's it.
I don't, I don't have anythingelse.
And that newspaper is theFinancial Times of London, and
it's so dry and so focused andboring.
It's perfect.
It's, it's just very good.
Um, but because of that I'vestumbled on all these other
(34:56):
things, so I'm just gonna dolike a dump.
One of them is, a writer onSubstack called Catherine
Shannon, and she is really, I, Idon't know what to call her.
She doesn't write about bigthings, but they feel like big
things, and I, I think it'ssomething about.
(35:16):
captures the essence of vibes,the importance of vibes and
emotion and feeling and, andthings like that.
She wrote a lot of fun poststhat I think are great entry
points.
Uh, one of them is your phone iswhy you don't feel sexy, and she
kind of revisits how phones usedto be kind of a sexy thing and
now they're just this awfuldistraction and you just look
like a douche bag when you're onit, and they're not this cool
(35:38):
accessory that you kind of wouldshow and only flip out once in a
while.
She also wrote this great pieceabout,, what you should do in
your twenties or how to cultcultivate your intuition, like
little life lessons, which Ireally appreciate.
She's, she's a bit younger thanus, but I think she's got pretty
interesting perspective.
So that's one I would put outthere as something very
different from the news cycle,but it's still focused on a
(36:00):
deeper level of introspectionand understanding how you can
cultivate and nurture.
Your soul.
It sounds very grand, sorry, butit's one of those things I think
we need to do that.
Um, and then the other thingthat has also been separately
from feeds, but I actuallypulled from someone else's feed.
Um, she wrote this essay, hername is.
(36:21):
Ah, it's her, her blog is calledThe Mind Garden.
Uh, we'll send the link, but shewrote the thing about a hundred
to 200 page books being kind ofthe sweet spot for big ideas and
a lot of books patted outbecause we have this idea that
300 pages for a nonfiction bookis, is essential.
She listed a couple of a hundredpage books that she really
liked.
And one two of them were, um, inPraise of Shadows, uh, which is
(36:46):
a novelist writing aboutJapanese aesthetics, Zaki.
He writes about.
The, the magical way Japanesearchitects and artists play with
shadows.
It's very straightforward, it'swonderful.
Um, and then another book, whichis kind of you would think is
the opposite, Kenya Hara, who isthe art director of Muji.
(37:10):
That's.
Brand, the famous brand.
Um, but he wrote this bookcalled White, and it's about a
hundred pages and it's reallyfantastic.
It's deeply philosophical,enjoyable, easy to read, but
then can challenge you in lotsof interesting ways.
So I, I think I'm now on this.
Focus of trying to find highlycondensed and focused books.
(37:34):
There's a book called OnTyranny, which people really,
really like.
And that's about a hundred, 200pages super focused, you know,
um, Harry Frankfort wrote thebook on bullshit.
It's nothing, it's super short.
Like these are to the point, notwasting my time.
And I feel like that is acertain urgency now to like, we
just need to feed our brainsvery, very focused messages.
And then, uh, we will be ableto.
(37:57):
Help wherever we can, however wecan, whatever it is that we
wanna do.
I just, there's a certain, yeah,I'm feeling a certain urgency
here.
Like, I, like, I still readnovels, but I've been favoring
short novels as well, that Ilike that I'll, I'll add them to
our list so everyone can seewhat these short novels are.
They pack a punch, you know,they kind of get to the point.
So all of that to say, uh, I'vebeen on a trip to try and curate
(38:23):
and focus.
My time on things that I thinkare highly effective for
wellbeing, feeling, not feelingso alone, uh, connecting with
the, the world and thecommunity.
And ultimately, yeah, I thinkthe missing pieces, like how do
you build more community, um,which I think is happening in
(38:43):
our daily lives in general here.
But yeah, it would be nice touse all of those things that we
have here as well.
Like we should, Hey.
Maybe we should have a discord.
Ernest, maybe this is themoment.
I don't know.
But I was just saying there's,there's something like you, we
always say, we'd like to hearfrom you.
We should, yeah.
I think it's very true.
We love, we love the idea thatthis is part of people's
(39:04):
listening behavior, so it's Itis something, yeah.
Ernest (39:08):
I really, I'm, I, I'm so glad you made that
recommendation of the RSS reader'cause I've been meaning to
readopt RSS'cause I've kind ofhad dropped off some years back.
Um, but I think you're totallyright that, that, to get out of
this.
Uh, world of Got News and stupidheadlines, uh, would just be so
(39:30):
much better for, um, my health
Joachim (39:33):
Yeah.
Ernest (39:34):
also my, um, knowledge base.
So, uh, I'm definitely going tocheck that out.
Oh, one quick follow up to onyour recommendation of In Praise
of Shadows, for one, I, I'lldefinitely read it, but also if
you enjoyed that, I think youmight also enjoy, um, I think I
mentioned it in a previousepisode, this movie.
Perfect days,
Joachim (39:55):
Oh yes,
Ernest (39:56):
did have you seen it Oh,
Joachim (39:58):
your recommendation.
We watched it.
It's fantastic.
Ernest (40:00):
Oh, all good.
I'm glad you liked it.
And you know, core to it is thisidea of rebi, which is this idea
of sunlight filtering throughthe trees and creating dancing
shadows and just forcing you tobe in the moment.
Um, but I do, I think that'ssuch a, uh, a beautiful idea.
So, uh, I'm definitely excitedto read that.
But those are awesome.
Joachim (40:20):
Well, I recommend the perfect days Again, let's,
everyone needs to watch it.
Ev I keep bumping into peopleand, and Tina and I, my wife and
I, we recommend it andeveryone's say, oh, I haven't
heard of this one.
I'm like, are you insane?
This is, this is the thing thatyou need.
You need to see a person who'sjust content and is absorbing
every aspect of daily life.
And there is yet, there isstill.
(40:41):
Deep sadness in their life.
It is so, it is so wonderful.
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
And he's got cassette tapes.
I love that.
This is so, it's so cool.
Yeah.
Ernest (40:50):
And there is also, um, it's a beau, a fantastic
soundtrack, but, um, if you lookup the soundtrack on the various
streaming surfaces, I think theonly, so, um, thing that comes
up is the one track, which isthe instrumental piano version
of Perfect Day.
Uh, and it's really beautiful.
So that's another, if you wannakind of get a sense for the
(41:12):
film, just listen to that and,um, it really does convey the
feeling you get from the film asa whole as well.
Uh, well, those are fantastic.
Um, and I think that that doesit for this episode.
Uh, as I mentioned earlier, wedo want to hear from you.
Um, do you.
Have experiences with anythingwe've recommended this week?
(41:34):
If so, what's your perspective?
Or maybe there's a product orservice you'd love to hear us
focus on through the lens ofproduct and product marketing.
Uh, whether it's a request, aquestion, or an observation,
please do share your thoughtswith us at
LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or onthreads@LearnMakeLearnShow, all
one word and let us know if youwould like us to start a discord
(41:57):
server.
Joachim (41:57):
yes, yes.
Ernest (41:59):
If, if enough people are interested, um, we'll do it.
Uh, now as for our next episode,we haven't talked about this
prior to this, but, um, I'll,I'll run this by you on air yo
with, uh, watches and Wonderscoming up.
What about doing another kindof, uh, whether it's a pre or
post, watches and Wondersepisode?
Joachim (42:18):
I'm up for that.
That that'll be fun.
That's a good, that's a goodwarm up topic episode.
Yeah, I'm happy.
Let's, let's revisit that.
Hopefully we'll get, maybe, whoknows?
It'll get political.
You never know.
Ernest (42:31):
Well, you know, the funny thing, our, our mutual
friend Dan, uh, who we've bothworked with, he approached me
and said that he is not at allinterested in watches, but he
said he really enjoyed listeningto our last year's watch Some
Wonder's follow up episode.
So, um, it seems like there's anaudience for it, so.
Joachim (42:50):
we got, we got one,
Ernest (42:51):
Yeah, we've got one.
Joachim (42:52):
one non non watch person.
I think that's a big deal.
So this one's for you, Dan.
Ernest (42:58):
All right.
So that, I think we're on thenfor, uh, a Watch and Wonders
episode and for anyone whodoesn't know Watches and Wonders
is the big annual watch, um,trade show I guess that happens
in Switzerland and it's going tokick off at the very end of this
month and run through thebeginning of April.
alright, well thanks forlistening and we hope you'll
join us for the next Learn Make,learn.
Hello and welcome to Learn Make Learn where we share
qualitative and quantitativeperspectives on products to help
you make better.
My name is Ernest Kim and I'mjoined by my friend and co-host,
Joachim Groeger.
Hey Joachim, how's it going?
Joachim (00:18):
I am doing well.
I'm happy because we arebreaking the seal.
2025.
This is it.
We've done it.
We're in 2025 and we'rerecording.
This is thE first step for Lmiclearn to be in the next year,
which means we've been, we willcan say, officially, we've been
going for two years.
We can round up, but I'm veryhappy that we're here and I'm
(00:40):
happy that we're here with anoff the cuff because I feel like
that's the easiest way to breakthe seal.
How are you?
Ernest (00:47):
Good, thanks.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Also excited to, uh, kind of getback into our recording and, you
know, as.
JohE just mentioned, uh, we havehad a bit of a winter hiatus.
I guess maybe you could call ita winter holiday, uh, but this,
this is episode 26 and today,um, like Jo JohE mentioned,
we're bringing you another ofour shorter format off the cuff
(01:10):
episodes.
Where we highlight and discuss ahandful of products or ideas
that have caught our attention.
And I just wanted to note thatwe will absolutely continue to
bring you longer format, indepth conversations and
interviews hopefully in the nearfuture.
But, um, and off the cuffepisode seemed like the best way
to just kind of ease our wayback into the saddle after our,
(01:31):
uh, extended winter break.
Um, also wanted to mention thatas ever.
We want to hear from you, soplease share any thoughts,
questions, or topic suggestions,suggestions, sorry.
With us at Learn makelearn@gmail.com or on thread at
Learn make, learn show, all oneword.
(01:52):
Alright, with that intro out ofthe way, let's move on to our
off the cuff conversation.
Jo, you wanna get us started?
Joachim (02:01):
Yeah, we, um, you know what?
I'm gonna try and be reallyrapid.
Super efficient and then we'llsee which ones like pique your
interest Ernest.
And maybe we'll dig a little toyou because I have a few here.
So, I'm trying to figure out.
As well in the things I'm gonnatalk about, connections to
things we've talked about in thepast, in previous episodes, and
(02:22):
because things have happenedthat have made me think, oh, we
actually did cover this in aprevious episode on passing.
So it'd be nice to see theconnection to where we are
because it's been a while,again, three months, and then
it's been more to those earlyepisodes.
So we talked about humane ai uh,in a previous episode.
So they recently announced lastmonth that they would be
(02:43):
shutting down and all of theirHumane AI pins will be bricked.
So if you recall, humane AI pinis the little device that you
could clipped to your clothes,and it would use LLMs and.
Blah blah.
And magic and fairy dust to makethings happen.
And it would be amazing.
And the thing that didn't work,it had terrible battery life.
I mean, these are ex applepeople that should have known
(03:05):
better and just bombed.
And then they tried to sell thecompany and it's done.
So they're gonna shut, shutdown.
And all of their pins that costabout$700 are just gonna cease
to function.
And these units are.
Pretty much useless without theserver infrastructure that sits
(03:25):
in the cloud.
And so that's kind of a reallydumb end to something that was,
you know, hyped up as thisincredible, the future of
everything.
Um, and so connected to that,um, I stumbled on a.
Review for a new wearable thatreminds me a lot of the humane
(03:46):
AI pin, and it's called the B.
Um, it's very new.
It looks like a Fitbit and ithas its whole., twist on all of
these LLM things and AI nonsenseis that it records everything
that you say and it's gonnacreate these summaries of what's
happened during your day.
So if you're in a meeting, it'sgonna listen to every word
that's happening and it's gonnasummarize stuff.
(04:06):
And it's pretty, I mean, numberone, very creepy, very worrying
from an information securityperspective, privacy
perspective.
I mean, the people that you'reinteracting with are gonna be
saying sensitive pieces ofinformation to you, but it turns
out.
The Verge Review has revealedthat it is terrible at doing
this.
So, um, he, the reviewer wearsthis device and, um, he recounts
(04:31):
that he was in a few Zoommeetings, chatted with a
coworker at the office, met upwith a friend for dinner and
committed home, and then helooked at the transcript and the
B.
App told him that number onequote, you are having a
conversation with someone abouta patient of yours who lives in
Louisiana.
patient appears to be causingharm to another person.
(04:53):
No doctor's offices, nothing.
This is a Verge tech writer.
Okay?
And the second summary was.
Victoria and her friend weredriving reminiscing about
childhood memories.
They talked about a place calledPT and Malcolm Buttons, which
seemed to be familiar locationsor references from their past.
There was a rocky sound at somepoint, perhaps indicating a
bumpy road or an issue with thecar.
(05:13):
This was all completely, I mean,there.
Elements that are true.
Like he was driving and he tookthe train, so there was a bump,
but my goodness, like how bad isthis?
So it's incredible to see thatwe in, you know, last month
Humane AI shuts down shamefullyand bricks, all of its divides
shamefully.
And here we've got the nextround.
(05:34):
Everyone's ready.
Be wearables, we're gonna listento everything.
You can transcribe it in cloudand LLM magic and blah, blah,
blah.
So have we learned any lessons?
I don't know.
Maybe that's.
the first thing is can we pleasejust learn the lessons of the
past?
Um, and so yeah, that was aquick thing on that.
And then just another bit thatwe talked about still related to
LLMs.
(05:54):
And I'll pass off to you Ernest,and you can throw in some stuff
into the mix.
But, this is the year ofefficiency and large language
models.
So this is now the big thingeveryone's talking about,
because DeepSeek, the TinyChinese outfit, basically spent
a little bit of time tweakingthese LLMs and got them to run
on less powerful hardware, lessmemory, more efficient, and all
(06:17):
of those things.
Um, and it's unsurprising.
It's unsurprising because I.
I dunno, it feels like the earlydays of the American automobile
industry competing against theJapanese where they just had
bigger and bigger cars andbigger and bigger engines.
And then the Japanese come alongand say like, actually you just
need this small engine and thiscar, and people will love it
post oil crisis.
So that, uh, deep seekrevelation was pretty to me
(06:40):
unsurprising because we hadmentioned in the previous
episode about using very, very,um, simple techniques to get.
Powerful performance.
And one of those things wasusing compression for text
classification and also imageclassification.
So when I heard the deep seeknews, I was thinking, look,
people know this.
We just need to go back to theroots of being a little bit more
frugal and mindful about how webuild things and think about
(07:02):
those efficiencies.
They just did the work, they didthe basic stuff that everyone
should be doing instead ofburning billions and billions of
dollars as OpenAI has beendoing, um, and continues to do
and suggests that we neednuclear power plants.
This small team of like fivepeople just said, actually, if
you just code well.
don't need all this stuff.
So those two things together arelike a little tidbit that I've
(07:25):
been, uh, like I wanted toshare.
And we'll have links to allthese stories again and links to
the previous episodes where wetalked about that stuff.
But yeah.
Have you been following all ofthis?
LLM?
Uh, well, I don't, I don't wannacall it hype.
It's also like it doesn't feelright, just noise.
Ernest (07:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
I certainly am not an expert inthe area, but I.
When the story came out aboutDeep Cica, it definitely
reminded me of your comment fromthat, uh, our prior episode
where you talked about the factthat, um, there are so much,
there are far more efficientways to achieve these things
that are being done with, um,just, it seems like the least
(08:03):
efficient tools, uh, meanspossible, uh, by most American
companies.
So, um, it was, uh, exciting tosee that, uh, I, I mean, I
think.
It's a great wake up call.
I, I think a lot of people were,um, shocked by it.
Uh, and so hopefully we'll seethings, um, change for the
(08:25):
better.
Just because, you know, when yourealize you don't have to
actually spend all this money,not just on the equipment, but
on the electricity as well, um,and get as good results, I think
that's gonna open a lot ofpeople's eyes.
Joachim (08:40):
Yeah.
For sure.
Ernest (08:42):
And then the humane thing as well.
I mean, it, it is another pointthat you've made, um, across a
few episodes, just this, Iforget the term you used, but,
um, it wasn't fragility, butjust this dependence on.
Extended infrastructure beyondthe physical product that, um,
does make your product sofragile.
(09:03):
Um, you know, we see it withHumane, but we also saw it with,
um, the other one.
Uh, which one
Joachim (09:10):
Rabbit R
Ernest (09:11):
Yeah.
Rabbit.
Yeah, same idea, but where wereally, the hardware is just the
front end to.
Stuff that's happening in thecloud.
And once uh, the company startsto get, um, fallen hard times,
then all that can go away.
And you, that hardware you feellike you paid for, it just
becomes a brick.
So, um, kind of seeing chickenscome home to roost, I guess, you
(09:34):
know,
Joachim (09:34):
Yeah, maybe that's my secret theme actually, is like,
look at the stuff that we weretalking about.
We were right.
Ernest (09:41):
oh.
If you want to trade off, then Iguess I could.
Jump in.
There were a co couple of thingsI thought I'd highlight, but
under the theme of, I don't knowwhat the right way to explain
this would be, but just my, uh,I've, I feel like we, we are in
this time now where.
Product reviews have becomereally, really important because
(10:05):
we're inundated by products.
So, you know, not a surprise,people are turning to reviews to
help them make better buyingdecisions.
But I think what that's led tois this sort of a review
industrial complex, just this,um, army of people, particularly
on social media, who are makenow making a living, reviewing
(10:25):
products across all differentcategories and.
The concern I have, the thingthat I'm seeing that I'm really
disappointed by is that becausenow for so many of these people,
this is a career they'veresorted to just sort of review
by spec sheet.
I, recently was looking at somereviews for cars.
(10:48):
And also saw a review for camerathat I'll talk about more in
just a minute.
But the overriding sentiment Iheard across both of those was
depressingly similar, and itreally boiled down to this
product should have the sameexact features as every other
product in its segment orcategory.
You know,, here are these kindof.
Okay.
Generic specifications that I asa reviewer have come to expect
(11:10):
from every product in thiscategory.
And if this new product doesn'tdeliver on, doesn't check off on
all those boxes, then that justmakes it very easy for me to say
this is not a good product.
because when, as a reviewer,your primary objective is just
to turn out as much content aspossible so that you can
maximize your ad inventory andad revenue.
I think this is just naturallythe outcome, this review by spec
(11:32):
sheet approach because you justdon't have the time to actually
use and experience the products,and I think that.
The thing that's disappointed meis that alright, that's the case
in this sort of new media, butthis has been something that's
been happening in, you know,maybe so-called old media as
well as they've been subjectedto these similar sorts of
(11:53):
pressures of just sort of, um,tracking clicks.
And one example that's close tohome for me is, um.
I own a, I can't remember whatyear it is.
It's I think maybe a 2023 MiniCooper se, which is the electric
version of the two door MiniFully Battery Electric.
And I, it kind of struck melooking back at some of the
(12:15):
reviews for that car, how Ithink Miss leading they can be
for people who might have beenin the car market.
The SC is actually no longeravailable mini's in this weird
period right now where theydon't currently offer a.
Electric version of theirtwo-door car only of their
bigger countrymen.
And there's lots of differentreasons for that that have to do
(12:36):
with, um, tariffs and all kindsof other stuff we could talk
about in a different episode.
But so.
At the time though, uh, the sethe two door was the only, uh,
electric model that they offeredand MotorTrend in their review
review, um, echoed the sentimentthat I saw across pretty much
(12:56):
every review that was, um, outat the time that the car was
available.
So, I'll, I'll just read.
Uh, a snippet from MotorTrendreview of the 2021 Mini Cooper
se.
And the interesting thing isthey just copy and pasted the
same exact paragraph into thereview of the 2022 Cooper Se and
I, I believe the 2023 as well.
(13:16):
So.
Quoting here, quote, perhaps theCooper's most significant
drawback is its limited range.
The electric mini can traveljust 110 miles on a charge,
making it the lowest range.
Ev currently on sale its closestcompetitors to 40 kilowatt per
hour.
Nissan Leaf and Hyundai Ionicachieve 149 and 170 miles
(13:37):
respectively.
And I, to me that's just like aclassic example of review by
spec sheet because it's like, ohYeah.
look at these specs.
This doesn't deliver on thespecs.
But the reality is this is a,this data, um, from, uh, wall
Street Journal article from 2023where they noted that the
average distance to work as ofthe end of 2023 was um, 27
(14:00):
miles.
And that's the average.
I think most urban people areliving in city centers, which is
kind of mini's core audience.
Their commutes are probably muchshorter than that.
But let's say you have theaverage commute, so roughly 50
miles total, both ways.
You know, you've still gotplenty of range to work with
after that 50 mile commute.
So it is just, uh, such a, uh, Ithink thoughtless comment to
(14:25):
make, and it's just a functionof, oh, we don't have time to
actually drive this thing andtest it in the real world.
So we're just gonna cite thisnumber off a spec sheet because,
you know, it just makes us looksmart.
Now I, I'll contrast that with,of all publication cnet, which
is now like a content farm, butthey, um, uh, to their credit
(14:45):
back in 2023, oh no, this isactually, it was either 2022 or
2023.
They published, um, a long termreview of the Mini Cooper SE So
it, the piece was titled 2022Mini Cooper SE Long-Term Wrap
Up.
And, uh, the subhead was after ayear of city living, our
electric Mini's short rangeisn't what we'll remember most.
(15:09):
Um, and, uh, I don't know.
I'll, I'll read some of the, um,just the beginning of that
review.
So they say quoting them.
Now, people love to hate theelectric Mini Cooper SE for its
short driving range, and I wouldreplace people With reviewers
because it was really reviewerswho love to hate the electricity
for short driving range.
(15:30):
But uh, continuing on with theirpiece.
But focus on that 114 mile EPAestimate and you'll miss the
car's strongest selling points.
No one is buying a mini gas orelectric for long distance
cruising.
Put the Cooper SE into serviceas a daily driver in a congested
city and its goodness willquickly win you over.
So they actually went to theeffort of.
(15:53):
Driving the car in the, um,context in which it was
intended, and they came to loveit.
And they, you know, I love thatpoint they made, which is that
the short range isn't what we'llremember most.
And that's absolutely been myexperience as owner as well.
It's my favorite car by a longshot of, of the cars I've owned.
(16:13):
Um, and knowing what it wasintended for, which is as a city
car, it's so amazingly.
Perfect for that role, and it'sjust such a joy to drive.
So I, you know, I think we justsee so much of this these days,
this sort of review by specsheet, which leads to, I think,
many people to just discount alot of products that they might
(16:38):
love.
Just because this sort of reviewindustrial comp complex, um, is
not incentivized to actuallyspend time on their reviews.
I'd say that the counter exampleto that is James Hoffman, who
we've talked about in the past,who has this incredible.
Uh, coffee focused YouTubechannel.
Um, he's also a, anaward-winning barista and also
(17:01):
has a company that, uh, roastsand sells coffee.
But he does incredible reviewson his site where he actually
takes the time to really dig outon the spec, you know, geek out
on the specifications, but thento really use the product in the
way it's intended.
Um, and I love how in a lot ofhis reviews.
He'll also talk about the joy orthe lack thereof of using a
(17:25):
given product, not just thespecifications.
Um, but he's very much theexception, uh, rather than the
rule, which is just this sort ofreally lowest common
denominator, bottom of thebarrel, sort of, uh, review by
spec sheet.
And to me, the.
Thing that disappoints me isthat that leads to lowest common
denominator products because,you know, as a product maker,
(17:49):
you're incentivized to then justmake products that do adhere to
that you know, checklist.
Um, and you end up with a sea ofproducts that are all
effectively identical and thenall you have left to compete on
is price.
Um, so.
I would, this is I guess my, uh,soapboxing to really, um, push
(18:10):
people to go beyond thosesurface level reviews.
Um, I know it's difficultbecause it takes time and we're
all busy, but, I think probablythe best resource remains I.
Forums and you know, now more sodiscord channels, these sort of
hidden corners of the internetwhere people, who are really
interested in certain topicareas are willing to spend a lot
(18:33):
more time discussing the prosand cons of products in a way
that, you know, these sort of,um.
Social media reviewers are not.
one other example I'll give hereis, I don't know if you've seen
this Yohi, you may have, but uh,this new camera from Sigma
called the
Joachim (18:53):
is it the one that's, that's made out of like a solid
block of aluminum or something?
They machined it out of the,it's in incred, if that's the
one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Yeah,
Ernest (19:01):
that's the one.
And um, I saw a review of thatcamera.
On a YouTube channel called PETaix, which is actually a, I
think, a great channel.
It's folks from the old DPreview site,
Joachim (19:13):
Yeah.
Ernest (19:14):
which is a great, uh, site for, uh, digital or camera
reviews in general, but theyreviewed the Sigma bf and
essentially if you watch thatreview and we'll provide a link
to it, you can boil it down to,to, I wish this camera was like
all the other cameras I use.
It's like basically the reviewerkind of highlighting all the
things that the camera doesn'thave that his.
(19:34):
Pro his, you know, typicalcameras do.
And I just found it verydisappointing for that because
he was reviewing, you know, hewasn't reviewing what it was,
but he was reviewing what he wasused to using.
Um, and I just think it's such amiss because there's so many
things that that camera doesthat are so unique that, uh, I
think would bring a lot of joyto a lot of people.
(19:56):
So I think it's absolutely.
There is value to highlightingthe fact that maybe it doesn't
have some features that youmight find on typical cameras,
but here are the other thingsthat it does that those other
cameras don't do.
And so here's why you mightenjoy it, even though it doesn't
have those sort of typicalchecklist features.
So, uh, that, that's another onethat just kind of really struck
(20:17):
me as an example of.
The sort of product that is donea disservice by this kind of
review culture that we're inright now.
I don't know if
Joachim (20:25):
feel you.
I feel you, Ernest.
Legacy media became exactlythat.
Spec sheet type of thing.
And with internal combustionengines, it was zero to 60 was
the number one stat.
Right.
And then German manufacturersespecially, were just so honed
in on extracting everythingoutta the engine to get that
zero to 60 down to three secondsto, I mean, absolutely insane
(20:47):
numbers that make no sense.
And there's never any need forthat.
Ernest (20:50):
Right.
Joachim (20:51):
What was interesting about then the transition to the
YouTube personalities and thosepeople is that it felt like they
were authentic.
They were not part of.
The reviewing industrial complexas you put it.
They're their own people.
And, and that's why theirreviews were trustworthy.
They were enthusiasts and thatwas it.
And then they became brands andthen they had to worry about,
you know, making money andadvertising revenue and
(21:13):
everything.
Then they become legacy media.
So it's, it's not that the.
The platform or the medium isthe problem, is the fact that
the force towardscommercialization and then the
typical force of how youmonetize this stuff is through
advertising.
That's what ruins all of thesethings.
Um, so yeah, I agree.
It's very hard to find goodreviews that go beyond just
rattling off the, the stats.
(21:34):
And I think it's easy, right?
It's very easy to churn outthose reviews and make videos
quickly, especially for thesebig budget guys now who can
just, you know, they just gettheir army of minions to just.
Takes shots and do stuff.
And, but I find that also in thewatch review community, it has
become, I like the personalitiesand I don't wanna single anyone
out, but it is, it is quitetedious after a while where you
(21:58):
just, uh, the, it's this manymales across and it's like, how
does it feel?
Like, what does it, what's coolabout it?
What does it make you want to,you know, what is the vibe of
this thing?
And so to that.
My counterpoint to actually, I,you know, I don't, I'm not a
photographing enthusiast.
I don't have any fancy cameras,but I do follow this YouTube
(22:18):
channel called GX Ace, and thisperson does camera reviews and
they are like mini Blade Runnervignettes.
That is the only way I candescribe them.
He.
He will pick a pick camera thatis maybe not being produced
anymore.
Um, and he just takes fantasticpictures of them with, with
(22:41):
them.
And he's created this narrativethat he is speaking from the
future, maybe 20 years in thefuture, and.
He describes our present momentthrough that lens of being from
the future.
he's got this little narrativearc to it that's very,
inspiring, entertaining, and thepictures he takes are really
(23:03):
wonderful.
You get a great sense of.
Why this camera is so good,because it's, the picture is
what matters, not the specs.
It's like, what does it do?
You know?
So we'll link to that person's,they're very entertaining and,
um, immersive.
So that is a great counterpointto the, to the spec sheet thing.
Like I, I don't think he evenmentions megapixels on the
(23:26):
sensor or something.
They're very inspirational.
I think that is.
That is where the medium shouldbe.
It is this, you let meexperience what this thing lets
you do and then that willinspire me potentially.
Yeah.
And that's why I like JamesHoffman as well.
He's also very unromantic aboutthings.
I think you need that as well.
There's very grounded, nocoffee, pun intended, but there
it is.
(23:47):
Grounded approach to his coffeereviewing machine, uh, when he
reviews coffee machines.
I trusted his review.
So I think it's about, yeah,it's hard to trust anyone now in
these review cycles.
And so of course they, theydon't want to ruin their brand.
They don't wanna upset anyone.
So the spec sheet is.
The lowest common denominator.
That is the statement that isunemotional and not subject to
(24:11):
debate.
Right.
But if someone said, I took apicture and it just doesn't have
the right feeling to it, they'llbe like, oh my God, what are you
doing?
This is terrible.
You know?
Um, actually on that note, thatreminds me, I remember, um.
Chris Harris is a car reviewer.
He also ran a YouTube channeland I can't remember which car
manufacturer it was.
(24:32):
It could have been oh,Lamborghini or someone like
that, like a pretty big orMercedes, one of those.
I'll try and remember and we canmaybe link to it, but he
describes the fact that he hasbeen throughout his career, very
honest about.
Car reviews and he had a momentwhere he was describing the
typical car review circuit now,and he is just one of the
(24:53):
reviews there.
And then there are all theseinfluences there.
And I think he was driving aMercedes, a MG.
And it has all these modes in itthat allow the computer to help
you drive it so you can driftthe car without much skill.
And so they, all theseinfluences drive it.
They love it because they're.
They're not professionaldrivers, they're just
(25:15):
personalities.
And he commented on the factthat that's the majority of car
reviews of that, and Mercedesloves having them on track.
And then he hops in the car andhe switches everything off.
And then he drives the cararound the track and he gives an
honest review.
He says, this car is prettyboring.
It's, you know, it's not verygood.
So it's, it's out there, youknow, and that we understand
(25:38):
that something has gone awrywith the.
What the power of YouTube was,which was authenticity.
It wasn't a typical broadcastmedium.
It was a very flat democratizedbroadcast medium.
Um, and now it's just tv.
Like everything else it feelslike.
So, but you have to find thosepockets and they exist.
And so I, yeah, we will helppeople find these little pockets
and I'm sure that will spur theYouTube algorithm to pick other
(26:01):
things that you can stumble onthat are interesting.
And that's the way we fightback.
It's resistance.
Ernest (26:07):
Well, you know, on that point I was starting to think,
okay, knowing that it'll take awhile for that change to happen,
if ever, you know, understandingthat this is now the, the state
of affairs, what could you as aproduct person in the business
of making products do aboutthat?
And what I started to, get towas the idea that it almost
(26:27):
means that you have to.
Make your product so extremethat it just forces reviewers to
break out of that spec sheetreview by spec sheet paradigm.
And you know, I think the, um,Sigma BF is a good example of
that, is just so different fromtraditional digital cameras that
(26:50):
it really does force you as areviewer to approach it
differently because.
Otherwise, you'll just end uplike that pix review, which is
really boring and just saying,oh, it doesn't do all these
things that my other cameras do.
You know?
So it forces you to, to approachit in a different way.
Another example that I, I sawrecently that I'm really excited
about is this little mini truck.
(27:11):
I don't know if you've seenthis, this, it's from a startup
company called Telo, TELO, andit's called the MT one, and the
line that everyone's repeating,which I'm sure they've.
Uh, given them is it's as shortas a two door mini Cooper, but
has five seats and a bed that'sessentially as big as a standard
pickup.
(27:32):
Uh, the, it's a remarkable featof packaging.
Um, it's, it's not commerciallyavailable yet, but they just,
uh, in the last few weeksstarted, um, giving people an
opportunity to drive it.
Reviewers.
And, you know, there again, it'ssomething that.
You know,'cause the discoursearound pickups is really also
(27:53):
just so stupid.
If you've ever looked at reviewsfor pickup trucks, it's so this
classic review by spec sheet,oh, it doesn't tow 7,000 pounds,
so it's not a real pickup, youknow, it's like, God, gimme a
freaking break.
And so this forces reviewersoutside of that just, uh, milk
toasts spec sheet reviewparadigm, because it's just so
(28:17):
different.
So.
That feels like, you know, maybethat's, at least, I'm sure
there's other ways to do it too,but that's one way to break out
of this, um, construct becauseotherwise, like I said, the
other way is just lower pricing,which is just a road to nowhere,
right.
So, um, I think this, and it'sobviously scary as well to do
(28:40):
something that's reallydifferent and breaks out of the
norm and to a, um, a significantway.
But it feels like it's almostessential now to do that so that
your product doesn't get lost inthe shuffle.
Joachim (28:53):
It reminds me, I think we referenced this a few
episodes ago, but Sandy Bo'swork on Nike Espb is kind of the
great playbook of how to, Imean, it's, he has the, the.
The machinery of Nike behind himand the marketing machinery of
Nike, but kind of bypasses allof that to create a brand that
feels more authentic and is ableto connect directly with the
community.
(29:13):
So I feel like another approachis really to start focusing more
on, I have this very focusedidea and I will first find the
people that are interested inbeing part of that and maybe
bring them along for thatjourney.
So it's interesting'cause youmentioned that company Telo, the
first thing on the top of thatpage is actually join our
Discord server.
(29:34):
So I'm gonna speculate, but thisis how I would play is like, I
know this product is not gonnaappeal to everyone.
This is not a mass market thing.
It's an electric pickup truckthat looks quite funky.
It looks really cute.
I do like it and its footprintis tiny.
Um, and yeah, so everyone'sgonna hop on the Discord server
and they're gonna connect witheach other and go be like, oh,
you like small trucks that areelectric?
Cool.
(29:54):
I like these things as well.
And, and then you have this.
Thing that is a groundswellbuilt around a product.
Um, and I think that's kind ofinteresting.
It's a very, well, it's an oldschool approach and a new school
approach because you can use thetechnology to build these
connections across people,across continents and actually
figure out a lot about what theyactually care about.
And, um, you could even drawthem into the, the process of
(30:16):
how this product's gonna emerge.
So yeah, truck discourses issome of the, I mean, that's the
thing that's interesting about,um, actually Ford as a prime
example, like they, they didactually go the other way,
right?
They, the F-150 is there andthen beyond there's more, but
then they also have the, theyhave the Maverick, which is that
tiny, tiny pickup truck, whichis really cute and is enough.
(30:40):
It's like the way the F-150 wasin the eighties or
Ernest (30:43):
Mm-hmm.
Joachim (30:44):
Um, and then that's pretty interesting that they
were, they went all the way downand it's, it has none of the
typical truck features, but it'sgot a bed and it's got five,
five seats and everything thatyou'd want to have from it, and
it's looks pretty practical.
That was an interesting counter,you know, a response to the
whole, bigger, bigger,
Ernest (31:03):
Right, and it's been.
Joachim (31:04):
went the other way.
Yeah.
And it's been pretty successful.
Ernest (31:07):
Yeah, that Maverick has been enormously successful.
It's, it's just so funny how.
Uh, companies and industries getstuck in these ruts of just
believing their own bs, youknow,
Joachim (31:20):
Yeah.
Ernest (31:21):
and, and, uh, just not listening to what their
customers are looking for.
Uh, but, but that was all I had,that, that kind of theme of this
kind of review industrialcomplex and what's that's
leading, what that's leading to,and how maybe as people making
products, we can break outtathat.
But, um, I think you, it soundedlike you had some other things
you wanted to highlight as well.
Joachim (31:40):
I had a few things.
So I know a lot of people aredisconnecting from the day to
day of the, of the news cycle,which I think is fine.
The way I've been trying toprocess this is I, I'm trying to
focus more on a, first of all,productive and not keeping my
eyes and ears closed to wayswhere there's a moment where I
could probably contribute in onedirection in to make things to
(32:02):
ameliorate things and be less,be less worse.
So be aware of those things, butthen also having the long view.
Uh, so that means.
Actually trying to work onfiguring out longer run
solutions for the problems thatwe face in general, societal
problems, not the ones of thepolitical establishment, but
just things that are on my mind,um, and trying to avoid these
(32:27):
gotcha headlines.
I'm gonna call it the New YorkTimes Industrial Complex.
Is this the, the way they'vekind of been passing the news in
the first time we had a Trumpadministration, it was always
this kind of like, let's counthow many lies, or, you know, oh,
he, that's not quite correctbecause it turns out blah, blah,
or Elon Musk is wrong, thatthere are over a hundred
thousand people who are ahundred years old or whatever.
There was this whole, dissectionof why he must be wrong about
(32:51):
the ages of people, because theydon't understand that in COBOL,
the way dates are done isdifferent from things and you
gotta, oh yeah.
So it turns out like, you know,Unix starts in 1970 at zero, but
COBOL starts in 1870, so blah,blah, blah.
Who cares?
If you want the summary, it'slike people are gonna get harmed
by these things, and it doesn'tmatter like what the stats are
and if the numbers are notright, who cares?
(33:11):
Like protect people.
You don't need the rest of it.
This doesn't help me solve thesebigger problems.
Long introduction to base, theidea of how do I start curating
a world that I can actuallyfocus on more long view things.
And so I found that, um, thething that's really helped me is
having an RSS reader and, um.
Being very directed in who Ifollow and people that are
(33:33):
discussing longer view things orwebsites that focus on longer
things.
So RSS is a really old fashionedtechnology.
We use it for the podcast aswell.
It's just a feed that updatesthat you can read from any type
of app, and it will populate itwith the latest things that a
website is publishing.
So it could be any websiteevery.
Major website has these, so youdon't have to rely on social
(33:54):
media.
This is the main thing thatsocial media always mixes.
The ads and the clickbait thisand the new headlines.
It's just really hard to getstuff so.
So the one that I'm using isthe, I think it's pronounced eno
rita INO reader.com.
And I have just been using thatas my primary point of getting
information.
(34:14):
And I've stumbled on so manyinteresting things as a result
of that.
Uh, every blogger that there areso many great bloggers out there
again.
I add them on the feed and I canjust be updated in all of the
things that they do.
Um, if you're fans of tkitki.org, who does links all the
time, he's a great source forother RSS feeds.
So he has a feed, you can usethat.
(34:34):
I would recommend doing thatbecause it helps you focus on
the things that you want to keeptrack of.
Yes.
I also have like one newspaperthat I follow and then, and
that's it.
I don't, I don't have anythingelse.
And that newspaper is theFinancial Times of London, and
it's so dry and so focused andboring.
It's perfect.
It's, it's just very good.
Um, but because of that I'vestumbled on all these other
(34:56):
things, so I'm just gonna dolike a dump.
One of them is, a writer onSubstack called Catherine
Shannon, and she is really, I, Idon't know what to call her.
She doesn't write about bigthings, but they feel like big
things, and I, I think it'ssomething about.
(35:16):
captures the essence of vibes,the importance of vibes and
emotion and feeling and, andthings like that.
She wrote a lot of fun poststhat I think are great entry
points.
Uh, one of them is your phone iswhy you don't feel sexy, and she
kind of revisits how phones usedto be kind of a sexy thing and
now they're just this awfuldistraction and you just look
like a douche bag when you're onit, and they're not this cool
(35:38):
accessory that you kind of wouldshow and only flip out once in a
while.
She also wrote this great pieceabout,, what you should do in
your twenties or how to cultcultivate your intuition, like
little life lessons, which Ireally appreciate.
She's, she's a bit younger thanus, but I think she's got pretty
interesting perspective.
So that's one I would put outthere as something very
different from the news cycle,but it's still focused on a
(36:00):
deeper level of introspectionand understanding how you can
cultivate and nurture.
Your soul.
It sounds very grand, sorry, butit's one of those things I think
we need to do that.
Um, and then the other thingthat has also been separately
from feeds, but I actuallypulled from someone else's feed.
Um, she wrote this essay, hername is.
(36:21):
Ah, it's her, her blog is calledThe Mind Garden.
Uh, we'll send the link, but shewrote the thing about a hundred
to 200 page books being kind ofthe sweet spot for big ideas and
a lot of books patted outbecause we have this idea that
300 pages for a nonfiction bookis, is essential.
She listed a couple of a hundredpage books that she really
liked.
And one two of them were, um, inPraise of Shadows, uh, which is
(36:46):
a novelist writing aboutJapanese aesthetics, Zaki.
He writes about.
The, the magical way Japanesearchitects and artists play with
shadows.
It's very straightforward, it'swonderful.
Um, and then another book, whichis kind of you would think is
the opposite, Kenya Hara, who isthe art director of Muji.
(37:10):
That's.
Brand, the famous brand.
Um, but he wrote this bookcalled White, and it's about a
hundred pages and it's reallyfantastic.
It's deeply philosophical,enjoyable, easy to read, but
then can challenge you in lotsof interesting ways.
So I, I think I'm now on this.
Focus of trying to find highlycondensed and focused books.
(37:34):
There's a book called OnTyranny, which people really,
really like.
And that's about a hundred, 200pages super focused, you know,
um, Harry Frankfort wrote thebook on bullshit.
It's nothing, it's super short.
Like these are to the point, notwasting my time.
And I feel like that is acertain urgency now to like, we
just need to feed our brainsvery, very focused messages.
And then, uh, we will be ableto.
(37:57):
Help wherever we can, however wecan, whatever it is that we
wanna do.
I just, there's a certain, yeah,I'm feeling a certain urgency
here.
Like, I, like, I still readnovels, but I've been favoring
short novels as well, that Ilike that I'll, I'll add them to
our list so everyone can seewhat these short novels are.
They pack a punch, you know,they kind of get to the point.
So all of that to say, uh, I'vebeen on a trip to try and curate
(38:23):
and focus.
My time on things that I thinkare highly effective for
wellbeing, feeling, not feelingso alone, uh, connecting with
the, the world and thecommunity.
And ultimately, yeah, I thinkthe missing pieces, like how do
you build more community, um,which I think is happening in
(38:43):
our daily lives in general here.
But yeah, it would be nice touse all of those things that we
have here as well.
Like we should, Hey.
Maybe we should have a discord.
Ernest, maybe this is themoment.
I don't know.
But I was just saying there's,there's something like you, we
always say, we'd like to hearfrom you.
We should, yeah.
I think it's very true.
We love, we love the idea thatthis is part of people's
(39:04):
listening behavior, so it's Itis something, yeah.
Ernest (39:08):
I really, I'm, I, I'm so glad you made that
recommendation of the RSS reader'cause I've been meaning to
readopt RSS'cause I've kind ofhad dropped off some years back.
Um, but I think you're totallyright that, that, to get out of
this.
Uh, world of Got News and stupidheadlines, uh, would just be so
(39:30):
much better for, um, my health
Joachim (39:33):
Yeah.
Ernest (39:34):
also my, um, knowledge base.
So, uh, I'm definitely going tocheck that out.
Oh, one quick follow up to onyour recommendation of In Praise
of Shadows, for one, I, I'lldefinitely read it, but also if
you enjoyed that, I think youmight also enjoy, um, I think I
mentioned it in a previousepisode, this movie.
Perfect days,
Joachim (39:55):
Oh yes,
Ernest (39:56):
did have you seen it Oh,
Joachim (39:58):
your recommendation.
We watched it.
It's fantastic.
Ernest (40:00):
Oh, all good.
I'm glad you liked it.
And you know, core to it is thisidea of rebi, which is this idea
of sunlight filtering throughthe trees and creating dancing
shadows and just forcing you tobe in the moment.
Um, but I do, I think that'ssuch a, uh, a beautiful idea.
So, uh, I'm definitely excitedto read that.
But those are awesome.
Joachim (40:20):
Well, I recommend the perfect days Again, let's,
everyone needs to watch it.
Ev I keep bumping into peopleand, and Tina and I, my wife and
I, we recommend it andeveryone's say, oh, I haven't
heard of this one.
I'm like, are you insane?
This is, this is the thing thatyou need.
You need to see a person who'sjust content and is absorbing
every aspect of daily life.
And there is yet, there isstill.
(40:41):
Deep sadness in their life.
It is so, it is so wonderful.
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
And he's got cassette tapes.
I love that.
This is so, it's so cool.
Yeah.
Ernest (40:50):
And there is also, um, it's a beau, a fantastic
soundtrack, but, um, if you lookup the soundtrack on the various
streaming surfaces, I think theonly, so, um, thing that comes
up is the one track, which isthe instrumental piano version
of Perfect Day.
Uh, and it's really beautiful.
So that's another, if you wannakind of get a sense for the
(41:12):
film, just listen to that and,um, it really does convey the
feeling you get from the film asa whole as well.
Uh, well, those are fantastic.
Um, and I think that that doesit for this episode.
Uh, as I mentioned earlier, wedo want to hear from you.
Um, do you.
Have experiences with anythingwe've recommended this week?
(41:34):
If so, what's your perspective?
Or maybe there's a product orservice you'd love to hear us
focus on through the lens ofproduct and product marketing.
Uh, whether it's a request, aquestion, or an observation,
please do share your thoughtswith us at
LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or onthreads@LearnMakeLearnShow, all
one word and let us know if youwould like us to start a discord
(41:57):
server.
Joachim (41:57):
yes, yes.
Ernest (41:59):
If, if enough people are interested, um, we'll do it.
Uh, now as for our next episode,we haven't talked about this
prior to this, but, um, I'll,I'll run this by you on air yo
with, uh, watches and Wonderscoming up.
What about doing another kindof, uh, whether it's a pre or
post, watches and Wondersepisode?
Joachim (42:18):
I'm up for that.
That that'll be fun.
That's a good, that's a goodwarm up topic episode.
Yeah, I'm happy.
Let's, let's revisit that.
Hopefully we'll get, maybe, whoknows?
It'll get political.
You never know.
Ernest (42:31):
Well, you know, the funny thing, our, our mutual
friend Dan, uh, who we've bothworked with, he approached me
and said that he is not at allinterested in watches, but he
said he really enjoyed listeningto our last year's watch Some
Wonder's follow up episode.
So, um, it seems like there's anaudience for it, so.
Joachim (42:50):
we got, we got one,
Ernest (42:51):
Yeah, we've got one.
Joachim (42:52):
one non non watch person.
I think that's a big deal.
So this one's for you, Dan.
Ernest (42:58):
All right.
So that, I think we're on thenfor, uh, a Watch and Wonders
episode and for anyone whodoesn't know Watches and Wonders
is the big annual watch, um,trade show I guess that happens
in Switzerland and it's going tokick off at the very end of this
month and run through thebeginning of April.
alright, well thanks forlistening and we hope you'll
join us for the next Learn Make,learn.
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