October 4, 2024 • 45 mins
We go off-the-cuff again, sharing product learnings from Miele vacuums, Snow Peak’s modular IGT system & Ableton’s singular vision for music creation.
OFF-THE-CUFF – 00:59
JOACHIM RECOMMENDS: MIELE C3 VACUUM – 01:38
Miele Complete C3 Calima PowerLine
Behind Dyson’s cyclone
Dyson Stick Vacuums Lose CR Recommendation
We’ve Recommended Miele Canister Vacuums for Almost a Decade
My Middle-Aged Miele C2 Canister Vacuum Has a Long Life Ahead of It
Ernest’s now discontinued Miele Cat & Dog Vacuum
James Dyson: From Brexit to Singapore
Yes, Portland’s Stark’s Vacuums is still in business!
ERNEST RECOMMENDS: SNOW PEAK IGT SYSTEM – 13:36
Ali George Hinkins: History of Snow Peak
An Introduction to IGT
Comprehensive “IGT 101” primer
Live the Slow Art of Japanese Camping
Examples of Korean-style Camping
Tom Bihn bags
Eames Storage Unit
The Eames Modular House
Modular Cabins Inspired by Minecraft
Snow Peak’s New Portland Flagship Store
Vitsœ 606 Universal Shelving System
USM Haller System
Legibility
Framework laptop
JOACHIM RECOMMENDS: ABLETON LIVE – 35:39
What is Ableton Live?
The Untold Story of Ableton Live
Reason’s skeuomorphic interface
Eating your own dog food
CLOSING – 44:31
****
Rant, rave or otherwise via email at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or on Threads @LearnMakeLearnShow.
CREDITS
Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com
Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ernest (00:04):
Hello, and welcome to Learn, Make, Learn, where we
share qualitative andquantitative perspectives on
products and services.
to help you make better.
My name is Ernest Kim, and I'mjoined by my friend and co host,
Joachim Groeger.
Hey Joachim, how's it going?
Joachim (00:18):
I'm good.
I'm tired.
I was gonna say I'm happy it'sthe weekend, but it is the end
of the weekend as we recordthis, so I'm not sure, uh, I'm
not sure how to feel about it.
I, it is, it, it was a longweek.
We were done with that.
It's very good.
Um, so, but happy to be havinganother small episode recording.
(00:38):
I think this will be good.
How about you?
Ernest (00:40):
yeah, yeah, same.
I think it's that time of yearas well where the days are
getting a bit shorter.
So uh, I, I think I'm feelingthat as well.
The weekends seem a little bitshorter because the days are
shorter, but yeah, same, alsovery excited to be, uh, with
you.
recording another of these, um,shorter format episodes.
This is episode 22.
(01:01):
And, um, actually, last time weasked for feedback, uh, as to
what we should call theseepisodes.
And it looks like Off the Cuffhas received the most listener
support to date.
So, um, Joachim, what do youthink?
Are you good to go withreferring to these as Off the
Cuff episodes?
Joachim (01:18):
let's do it.
Yeah.
Let's do off the cuff.
I'm happy with that.
Ernest (01:23):
All right.
Well, um, as ever, we lovehearing from you.
So, Please do keep sharing yourfeedback and questions with us
at learnmakelearn at gmail.
com or on threads atlearnmakelearnshow, all one
word.
All right, now let's move on toour recommendations.
Joachim, you want to get usstarted?
Joachim (01:43):
I'm going to actually recommend a product
Ernest (01:45):
Hey.
Joachim (01:46):
I'm going to recommend the Miele Complete C3 Calima
Powerline Vacuum Cleaner.
It's an interesting device formany reasons.
it's almost a throwback vacuumcleaner in many ways.
So Dyson is kind of the namethat's synonymous with moving
vacuum cleaners into the 21stcentury with its dual cyclone
(02:11):
approach to vacuum cleaners.
Inspired by how sawmills extractsawdust, um, via a kind of
cyclone process.
That's what, James Dyson himselfsaid was his inspiration for
that.
And he thought, well, what ifthere was a way to put that into
a small vacuum cleaner?
And then you would have abagless vacuum cleaner, which is
(02:32):
essentially what the sawmillshave.
And potentially you never losesuction and all of those
benefits.
we've adjusted to the idea thatthat is the way to do it.
Bagless vacuum cleaners are kindof the norm, and it's very rare
to see anyone make a brand newvacuum cleaner with a bag.
It feels like a really dirty,wasteful, outdated way of doing
(02:53):
stuff.
But we have owned cyclone basedhoovers for a while.
In fact, I actually owned aMiele cyclone based battery
powered one for a while, andthey're just all They don't do a
good job.
I I'm I have really We've had aDyson, um, not battery powered,
(03:15):
mains powered and it was fine,but it would get quite dirty.
And it was very finicky to keepclean.
I always assumed, I guess thetechnology is letting it never
lose suction and all of thosethings.
And so I really just thoughtthat was the only way things
could be.
But then I was getting so fed upwith that whole approach, I just
(03:38):
said, what else is out there?
And Miele, They still makevacuum cleaners with bags, which
really I found so superpuzzling., so I bought it
knowing that I could return it,uh, if, if everything went
wrong, so I got it through avery large online retailer that
isn't super strict with returnsand I have to say, um, Man, what
(04:01):
a product.
We've had it now for about sixmonths, I would say, and I
fastidiously hoover the housequite regularly.
We have three kids.
There's always a mess.
There's always somethingcrunching under my feet.
So a hoover that is alwaysoperational is necessary it's a
really good machine.
So there are all these littledesign features that make it an
(04:24):
incredibly capable machine.
It is pricey, what are yougetting with that extra money?
It's like with watches, fit andfinish.
Everything fits together,nothing's wiggling around,
things lock in place, thingsclip in place, and everything is
just, it feels.
high quality.
(04:44):
The way it looks is prettynondescript.
It just looks like a normalvacuum cleaner, but, um, little
details that make it a veryusable machine that are worth
pointing out.
The casters that it rolls on,move in all directions.
I remember when Hoovers just hadtwo big rear wheels and a little
caster on the front that couldrotate.
This thing can move sideways,forwards, 360, any way you want
(05:05):
it to go.
Super smooth, really great.
And when you're just movingaround the house, uh, being able
to just kind of, this is notgood, but, yank it by the hose
so that you can get it to whereyou want.
I know, it's not the right wayto use it, but.
It is the way I need to use it,so it will follow me around the
house very easily.
Um, the cable is incrediblylong, it also retracts with one
(05:28):
touch of the button, the wholecable is retracted, it's, it's
great, it can stow away, it'sstill super light, and it uses a
bag.
And so far, I have not seen anyreduction in the performance of
this, um, Hoover as time goeson, which then got me thinking,
to what extent was that really alittle bit of a myth, that there
was this incredible loss ofsuction from the bag getting
(05:48):
clogged up.
Maybe the machines have justgotten better and they have more
output or the bags have gottenbetter.
I've not had an issue with it atall.
And it's incredibly good.
The bag I have not had toreplace, which sounds kind of
potentially gross, but It issealed off in its little, in a
little container, um, and thereare no strange smells or
(06:10):
anything like that.
And it's very easy to replacethe back.
It has a little clipping,plastic clip, sliding clip
thing.
You just pull it out and you canthrow the whole thing away.
It feels very wasteful.
But then again, you still haveto do filters and all of those
things for cyclone vacuumcleaners as well.
And it's not, you have to scrubthem, clean them.
So I'm totally sold on thebagged vacuum cleaner right now.
(06:30):
The convenience.
is great, but I think theperformance is the thing that's
really marking it out.
So it's kind of a weirdthrowback technology.
I was really looking forward tobuying this thing and giving it
a try because it's so oldfashioned in many ways.
But I do think that it's aninteresting case study in how
(06:51):
narrative and marketing andbranding just can wash over the
entire truth of what is a goodmachine and what is a bad
machine.
And I think every manufacturerhad to get onto that bandwagon.
merely to show that they aretaking this idea seriously, even
if there was zero merit to it.
(07:12):
I assume that when Dyson cameout, many manufacturers just
said, no, you don't have toworry about that.
This is just hype.
But I think that's justsomething about seeing your dust
spinning around in one of thoseDyson machines that made people
feel like I'm getting somethingclean, right?
Vacuum cleaners, everything isconcealed inside of the box and
you don't see a thing.
Um, and Dyson is very smart andlike, show the cyclone, like
(07:34):
show them the thing spinning,show it.
getting all that stuff..
I don't know.
whether there is truth to thisloss of suction.
I think eventually towards theend of the life of that bag, a
hundred percent, it's going toget clogged and that's it.
But same thing with your cyclonething.
If you keep going, it's, it'sgoing to stop spinning air and
nothing's going to work anymore.
(07:55):
I think, a challenge to anyonewho's out there, like, is there
any value in the cyclone thingversus a back thing?
Because I, in my daily use, haveactually found the opposite to
be true.
So I don't know.
What kind of Hoover do you have?
I don't want to spend too muchtime on this topic.
It's, I have a couple of otherthings I want to talk about, but
what kind of Hoover do you
Ernest (08:12):
the funny thing is we have a very similar amulet
model.
It's a predecessor, I think theycalled it the, um, C3 cat and
dog model or something likethat.
But it came with, you know, someattachments that were
particularly useful if you hadpets, but we have that.
And we've had that for over adecade now and it's continued to
(08:33):
be absolutely rock solid.
Uh, we do also have a Dyson.
I forget which model exactly,but, um, we've had the Dyson for
about four years now and it'sjust starting to give us some
issues where it's not holding acharge.
Uh, so yeah, yeah, that isannoying.
(08:54):
Um, but I was curious, what ledyou to the Mila?
Like, could you talk through,cause you know, it is a bit of a
counterintuitive thing cause theDyson form factor is like so
dominant nowadays.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Joachim (09:12):
uh, I think Brexit.
is the start of my journey.
James Dyson was a vocalsupporter of Brexit.
He was one of the businessleaders that was insistent that
people come back into theoffices before there had been a
full rollout of vaccinationsduring COVID.
(09:32):
He was totally unsympathetic tothe fears and concerns of his
workers, who are the lifebloodof his company.
Then, after he lectured everyonein the country and the UK about
the patriotic duty of, uh,voting for Brexit, he then moved
the company abroad.
So he's just kind of adouchebag.
Um, so, that was the beginningof it.
(09:55):
And, all of that just left afunny, funky aftertaste in my
mouth when I thought about him.
My, my journey started with, uh,Hoover's, not Dyson.
you know, we'd, we'd owned aDyson before the handheld one's
incredibly loud as well, whichreally was, um, I was shocked
how loud that machine was.
(10:16):
The Miele C3 is pretty damnquiet, and it has multiple
modes.
So you can go from a whispermode all the way up to a high
powered rug mode, which I assumeyou'll see your Miele can also
probably do.
You can switch between thosemodes.
That has also been reallyuseful, uh, depending on the
surface.
Man, the thing is prettylightweight.
It's sturdy.
(10:37):
And like I said, it's that formand fit that gives you
confidence that this is going todo okay for the long run.
And I can see a distinct qualitydifference between the Miele
that we had, which was a batterypowered unit, not made in
Germany, no offense to anyone,but clearly built on a budget,
should I say, like it is a morebudget friendly device, even
though it's still veryexpensive.
(10:58):
There is a distinct differencethat you just feel immediately.
it's that fit and form and theclicking.
This is the thing that you'repaying for when you look at
watches, right?
It's the expense is just thatlittle extra refinement in the
way the thing is put togetherwith care.
Yeah,
Ernest (11:13):
I'm irrationally enamored with that power cord
retraction feature that youmentioned.
It's amazing how well it worksand 10 years plus on it
continues to work.
That's perfect every time.
It's like, I'm amazed that itcan do that.
Yeah.
Joachim (11:32):
and so powerful.
It's, it is one click and theentire chord retracts.
really fast.
And it's just so wonderful.
It's a very satisfying machineto be working with, to do such
a, you know, very, boring,tedious task that is no fun,
having a machine that gives youa little bit of joy and pleasure
during that is, I think makes a,it makes a huge difference.
(11:56):
So the premium, yes, it is apremium machine, but you're
using the damn thing every day.
Why don't you get somethingthat's actually worth enjoying?
Ernest (12:04):
Right.
I wonder how Um, Mila hasmanaged the transition in terms
of, in historical, there used tobe vacuum stores.
I don't know if this was thecase in Europe, but in the U.
S.
there used to be stores,specialty vacuum stores, and
those have for the most partgone away.
So I wonder if that's been achallenge for Mila.
Because I imagine it must bedifficult to sell someone on You
(12:27):
know, 800, 900 plus vacuumwithout being able to try it
out.
Did you buy yours online?
Joachim (12:36):
I did, I did.
I bought it online.
To be honest, Dennis, if I hadlived in Portland, I might have
gone to Stark's Vacuum Cleaners.
Are they still around?
That was a shop, that was like ashop, but I don't know if
they're
Ernest (12:50):
I know.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure if they do stillexist or not.
I'll double check.
Joachim (12:57):
Yeah, if, if any city would still have a vacuum shop,
it would have to be Portland atthis point.
I think it's the only place thatwould do that.
But yeah, no, I bought oursonline.
And like I said, I, knowing thatwe could return it was a big
Ernest (13:08):
Right, right.
Joachim (13:09):
It would be nice if there are more cheesy showrooms
where you could actually justtry one of these out, but you
know, YouTube videos are thenext best thing.
Would have been interesting tohave like a vacuum salesman try
and sell me on it as well.
I don't know.
I don't know that thatexperience, it doesn't happen
very often anymore.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(13:29):
So that was, that's one of my,my quick recommendations.
I'm happy to alternate towhatever you've got on us and we
can bounce off of your stuff.
Ernest (13:36):
Oh, sure.
Yeah.
I've got, uh, just one I wantedto share.
Um, maybe it might lead to afollow up, a related
conversation, but the product, Ialso, it's also a physical
product.
It's from a company called SnowPeak, uh, that makes outdoor
gear.
It's a company that is based inJapan, but, um, now it has
international presence.
(13:57):
And the specific product istheir.
IGT line.
Um, but I'll just give you alittle background in case
anyone's not familiar with SnowPeak because it is still
somewhat under the radar brand.
Um, it was, Snow Peak wasfounded in 1958 in Niigata
Prefecture in Japan by a personnamed Yukio Yamai.
(14:19):
And as the company tells it,Yukio returned to his hometown
after serving in the militaryduring World War II and found
solace in climbing.
Mount Tanigawa, which is areally treacherous peak that's
considered one of the 100 famousmountains of Japan.
And as he wrote in his journal,quote, we link our lives
(14:39):
together by a single rope and itgives us such a beautiful sense
of trust in each other.
It is such a pure thing.
If we could capture the feelingand harness it for the good of
society, certainly everythingbad or evil would fall away.
unquote.
So, um, you know, you can kindof get the sense from that, that
climbing really changed his lifeand became really important to
(15:02):
him.
And he wanted more people to beable to experience it.
But he found that, uh, theclimbing gear that was available
in Japan just wasn't goodenough, at least, you know, by
his standards.
And so basically necessitybecame the mother of invention
and Snow Peak was born.
And, you know, Snowpeak is quitedifferent from most, uh, Western
(15:24):
outdoor product brands in thatthey deliver products that allow
for, um, a type of campingthat's much more common in Asia,
which is sort of, I guess, whatwe would call like car camping
or, um, what's that called?
Uh, like deluxe camping.
There's a term for it.
I can't remember what it'scalled.
Yeah, I guess it's sort of morelike glamping, but it's just
(15:48):
kind of the more common style ofcamping that you would
experience in Japan and SouthKorea as well.
And so, um, the products tend tobe.
Maybe, you know, certainly notthe sorts of things that you're
going to go hike into anywherewith.
Uh, they're really the sorts ofthing that, that you would bring
in your car.
Um, so just to give you some,some context on it, but their
(16:11):
IGT system, IGT stands for irongrill table that kind of was the
genesis of it, but fundamentallyit's a modular system.
And that's why I wanted to shareit because It is really the
antithesis of the minimum viableproduct concept in that it's,
it's, um, absolutely not theleast common denominator
(16:37):
solution in that it's, it canactually be, seem very
overwhelming at first, but whatyou get in exchange is that it
can be incredibly powerful.
Um, so at its core, the IGT isjust a frame for a table.
So the core of it is this frame,uh, it's mostly aluminum and
(17:01):
some very, uh, robust nylon.
And then you add on all theseother elements, even the legs
you add on, it doesn't come withthe legs.
And the reason for that is thatthat means that you can get legs
of different height.
Uh, they offer, I think threedifferent heights, three or four
even.
Um, and then within that frame,they have.
(17:23):
Um, now I believe they offer twodifferent widths of frame and
the, the frames are made up ofset unit widths.
So, uh, the, the kind of mostpopular frame is a three unit
frame.
(17:44):
And then they sell all of theseaccessories that fit into the
frame.
Um, and I know this is gonna,it's very difficult to picture
just through, uh, words, sowe'll share copious links in the
show notes as well.
But you can get, um, a one unitbin that would fit into the
frame.
(18:04):
You could get, uh, A two unitburner.
So, you know, it would occupytwo of those units.
Um, they're all kinds of, youcan even get a sink that would
occupy one of those units.
You can have add ons that youcan use to extend, uh, the, the,
the frame on, on its sides.
(18:25):
You can even have frames ofdifferent heights attached to
each other.
So you can create theseincredible Um, setups, uh, that
really are tailored exactly toyour needs in terms of the size
of your group, the type ofcooking you're doing.
Um, but it's, it's this reallycool product that is at its core
(18:48):
modular, you know, that's reallyenvisioned from its very Genesis
as a modular system.
And I just love that.
It's this example of kind of theopposite of that.
MVP thinking that's so commonthese days in the digital space,
and instead it's How can wemaximize value, uh, by spending
(19:10):
a lot of time up front thinkingabout the many different use
cases that our customers mightneed and then building a system
that is modular and modularenough to accommodate that.
And I just love that.
And it's, I think it is quiteunusual.
I'll maybe talk through some,some of the reasons why I think
it is pretty unusual.
(19:31):
It's there are some otherexamples though.
Like, um, there's a.
a bag brand that I really lovebased in Seattle, actually
called Tom, Tom bean bags, B I HN.
Again, we'll provide links inthe show notes.
And in their case, they designedtheir bags again, around this
fix fixed units of size.
(19:53):
Uh, so you can get a bag andthen pair it with their packing
cubes that You know, you couldget a basically a one unit
packing cube or two unit packingcube and you know, there are
different bags will accommodatethose different sizes of add
ons.
And then in addition to packingcubes, they have all kinds of
different accessories that youcan use to extend the.
(20:14):
The functionality of that corebag that you have.
So Tom Bean is a great example.
I think there's, you know, otherexamples too, like for example,
um, in the furniture space,Charles and Ray Eames, a lot of
their furniture pieces andconcepts were fundamentally
modular.
Um, they even designed a modularhouse concept, which
unfortunately I don't think wasever actually manufactured,
(20:36):
brought to manufactured.
But, um, it was the concept, uh,it was a prefab, uh, modular
house concept.
So, um, you can, you seeexamples of this, uh, I'd say
another example in the digitalspace would be like Minecraft.
Um, you know, I, I think that'sa great example of something
that is fundamentally modularwas designed to be extended by
(20:58):
the end user.
Um, I wouldn't consider gameslike, for example, Fortnite that
allow for in game cosmetics.
To me, that's not.
Modular in that it's not really,you know, cosmetics aren't
really fundamentally changingthe functionality of the overall
system.
They're almost more likestickers, which is why I think
(21:20):
the name, the label cosmetics iskind of an apt label for what
they are.
So I think things more in thevein of a Minecraft where you
can fundamentally change thefunctionality of the system.
Uh, that's kind of what I meanwhen I talk about modular and to
me, the IGT.
System from Snowpeak and alsoTom Bean's bags are reflections
of that in the physical space.
(21:41):
Um, I think, you know, if you,you kind of think about this
from a product creationperspective, I think there are
reasons why modularity tends tobe the exception rather than the
rule.
Uh, for one thing, it is morecomplicated from a product
creation and a line planningperspective because modular
products have to work together.
You know, they'reinterdependent.
Um, And so, you know, itrequires more planning upfront,
(22:04):
more thinking upfront, and thenit can also create some pretty
big challenges from an inventorymanagement perspective.
You know, for example, in thecase of Snowpeak's IGT system,
if their core frame happens tobe out of stock, then that can
really significantly reducedemand for, for any of those
other modules that go with thatframe, uh, with that core frame.
(22:27):
Uh, you know, by contrast, ifyou were to just offer a line of
standalone camping tables,inventory of any one of those
tables, isn't going to affectthe others.
In fact, actually, if inventoryof one table were to go, you
know, um, if one of those tableswere to sell out, it might
actually create increased demandfor the other ones.
Um, so.
Yeah.
You know that it createschallenges.
And I think that's why thisinventory complexity is a big
(22:48):
reason why brands that havesucceeded with a modular
approach are almost alwayswholly or largely direct to
consumer.
Um, you know, because it can bereally difficult to persuade a
third party retail partner tocarry enough units.
Of enough of your skews to makea modular platform viable for a
consumer shopping at thatretailer.
(23:08):
Um, and then speaking ofconsumers, modularity can also
be complicated to explain toconsumers.
And I think that this isdefinitely true of Snowpeak's
IGT system.
It can feel really overwhelmingat first.
And the way Snowpeak hasaddressed this complexity is by
creating.
really rich retail experiences,both in their stores and they
(23:32):
have this really innovativething they called Campfield,
which are Essentiallycampgrounds that they've created
that allow you to experiencetheir products, you know, in the
way that they're meant to beused, you know, in the context
in which they're meant to beused.
Um, and the same with the retailstores.
If you, uh, they don't have thatmany of them in the States, but,
(23:53):
uh, if you have an opportunityto visit one, they're just so
fantastic in that they have thegear set up so you can, you
know, See them in context andsee how you'd use them.
And it really illustrates why,uh, Snowpeak's modular approach
delivers more value than, youknow, kind of typical standalone
sort of product.
(24:13):
Um, and then one last, I'd saykind of pro and con from a
product creation perspective isthat modularity creates.
It's hard constraints, you know,because those jigsaw pieces have
to fit together and you know,that can impose design
challenges.
But um, as you, Joachim, youknow, have highlighted in
previous episodes, constraintscan also be a powerful catalyst
(24:37):
for innovation.
And I, I absolutely see that inthe case of Snowpeak's IGT
system, they've come up with allthese ingenious, you know, Add
ons to this core system, and Ithink that constraint has
allowed them to be so much moreinnovative, you know, because if
you're just creating a wholebunch of standalone, uh,
(24:57):
products, you can be innovative,but it can be also, I don't
know, very confusing.
You end up with all thesedifferent products that have all
their own unique valuepropositions, whereas in the
case of Snowpeak's IGT system,everything enhances the value
proposition of that.
System.
(25:18):
Um, and I think that isfundamentally what makes a
modular system so compelling andpowerful is that every product
makes every other product inthat system more valuable, uh,
as a, you know, um, brand, I'dsay that's the case for
Snowpeak, but also as.
(25:38):
The customer, you know, everytime I add a piece onto my
simple core, it becomes morevaluable, the system as a whole.
And then also that individualpiece that I've just added on.
So it's so cool to be part of anecosystem like that.
I'd say kind of whether this isintentional or not, one other
(26:03):
Um, side effect of a modularsystem is that it does increase
switching costs.
Um, you know, because I've nowbought into the system, I've
added on all these differentmodules, and so I'm much less
likely to now switch to someother, um, you know, Table or
whatever the case may be thatwon't work with that system.
(26:23):
So, um, I think that, uh,Snowpeak as a brand, but also
their IGT system in particularhas a lot.
There's a lot you can learn fromthat as a product creator,
whether you're making productsfor, you know, physical products
or digital products.
Do you have any experience withSnowpeak's products?
Uh,
Joachim (26:41):
haven't actually had any experience with Snowpeak
products.
Um, but I have browsed thewebsite not because I'm not a
camper, but I am a gear fiend.
So I, and I had, I did look atthe designs of the, um, the IGT
system, which is very, it's veryneat and very clever.
I think this whole theme ofmodularity is.
(27:04):
touching on a nerve for me ingeneral, because there's
something very, we've talkedabout it before, which is having
a system that is adaptable to ashifting set of needs is, is the
ideal in so many ways.
Uh, and funnily enough, justbefore we hopped onto this, I
(27:25):
was looking at modularbookshelves as a thing we've,
we've held off on buying.
IKEA bookshelves or whatever,cheap bookshelves, MDF
bookshelves, because we want tohave a nice library set up.
So all our books are still incrates, uh, and we're just
trying to find the, the rightsolution.
And I've always had my eye ontwo specific solutions.
(27:46):
One is, By Dieter Rams of Brown,his thing called
Ernest (27:51):
uh,
Joachim (27:52):
which is a modular bookshelf system.
It uses these rails that areeither suspended in the middle
of, you know, clamped betweenthe floor and the ceiling and
you hang things off it.
Or you can screw that frame intoa wall and you hang sister
shelves off that, uh, drawerunits.
desk units, anything goes onceyou have that frame in place,
(28:13):
you can basically do anything.
Uh, and then the other companythat does a good job is USM.
Ernest (28:17):
right.
Joachim (28:18):
These are all premium products, right?
These are like investmentproducts, but USM has this, um,
little metal ball that has I'mtrying to think now, like enough
from every plane, like littlethreading.
So you can put screws and youcan basically construct these
bookshelves.
Um, extend them, shrink themdown, using this very, very
(28:40):
straightforward system of rodsand little ball.
And for the like, with which ofthe nodes where all the, the
rods come together to create acorner or create a shelf.
And that's also a system thathas, uh, doors, glass doors, uh,
blank pieces.
desk things, pullout units, likeit's pretty limitless at that
(29:02):
point.
But what I think is alsointeresting about physical
modular systems is they are verylegible in the sense that if I
wanted to make my own things, Icould.
make my own attachments andmodules for this system.
(29:23):
So the USM thing there's nothingstopping me from measuring the
threading, figuring out whatscrews go in there.
In fact, there is a secondcompany that's out of Germany
that has made a compatiblesystem with the USM that is much
cheaper, but only ships inEurope.
I already looked, uh, they're afraction of the price.
Uh, they make some of the stuffin the Czech Republic, but
(29:43):
they're, they don't use thesecute little balls.
They have more of a cube shapeto them, but totally compatible
with the USM system.
That's the amazing thing about aphysical modular system is that
it is so legible.
So repairs, extending ityourself, you could conceivably
get a piece 3d printed or madeby someone if you want to keep
(30:05):
something going.
Um, awesome.
because it's immediately visiblehow it works.
it's not a mystery how themodules fit in.
I think this is the same thingwith the Snowpeak IGT.
It's very clear, So you can makeyour own version of something if
you really, really wanted toyourself or ask someone to help
you do that.
So Like you said, there is lockin.
This is an ecosystem that you'rejoining.
However, it's legible andtherefore it is still in your
(30:29):
control to be able to use it.
Even if the company disappears,this physical representation,
this modular system still canexist.
Right.
And so, um, I think that's, andit's difficult to design these
things.
Well, I think it makes sensethat it only occurs in certain
domains like bookshelves, arelative, you know, furniture is
pretty straightforward.
I'm not sure if we've mentionedthis in the past, but the
(30:52):
framework laptop is a goodexample of a complex
technological device that, thatis able to be pretty damn
modular, right?
The, the essential chassisremains fixed.
It's a shell and inside of that,the components come in so you
can, you know, remove the entiremotherboard and upgrade the
(31:12):
chipset and, and switchcompletely from anything that
you want.
Tiny modules for power, USB,external, you know, drive
systems, hard drives, whateveryou need, hot swappable to a
certain extent, screens, uh,replaceable.
Yeah, I just want, I want moreof that.
Ernest (31:30):
I think you're right, too, that this sort of modular
approach is going to be soimportant looking ahead as you
think about Sustainability andthe need to keep products for
longer.
I think one great way to enablethat is to create modular
systems where you can addfunctionality or very easily
(31:52):
repair parts that have failed.
Um, and I, it gives me great, Imean, to that point, it gives me
great confidence as well, whateither, whether it's Snowpeaks
IGT system or my Tom Bean bagsto know that.
I will, they will continue to bevaluable for me because they
(32:15):
have created this framework thatthey've stuck with for long
enough that to your point, nowthere are third parties parties
who've who now offer, you know,in the case of snow peak,
there's multiple third partiesor, um, uh, Tom Bean as well.
So yeah, cool.
That investment I've made willcontinue to have value and
(32:36):
actually I'll be able tocontinue to grow the value of it
over time because they've had todiscipline to create this
framework, establish thisframework and stick to it over
time.
I think it's so different fromthe approach that so many people
take, especially in the digitalspace.
But my hope is that it'ssomething that more people in
(32:58):
both the physical and digitaldomains will start to think
about as we.
enter into this era where, um,uh, you know, people don't have
quite as much money to spendand, you know, they want to
stretch that, uh, a bit further.
And, you know, to your pointabout USM being expensive, same
with the Snowpeak IGT stuff.
(33:19):
But at least for my, on my part,I'm willing to make that
investment because I haveconfidence that the value will
be there for over time.
Um, you know, it's not going tobe this kind of throwaway thing
where after a few years, like myDyson vacuum, I'm probably.
There's nothing I can do with itonce the battery stops working.
(33:39):
I, I don't believe it'srepairable.
So, um, I feel a lot betterabout, um, you know, being
willing to invest, uh, in thesemodular systems because I have
confidence that they're going tocontinue to have value over
time.
Joachim (33:55):
I mean, another way to get at the modularity is almost,
is, is after the fact sometimes,so, if one of your hard drives
is done in your laptop and youdon't need it anymore, you can
pull it out and then put it intoa case that has a USB on it and
then it becomes a portable harddrive.
So,, If there's a way to likeresurrect and repurpose a device
(34:16):
into a new space, that would begreat.
I would love to be able to, youknow, when my phone is done,
just wipe it, crack it open.
And someone says, just plug thisthing in.
It's going to turn your littlephone into a small, Linux
powered machine.
Like that would be amazing,yeah, we should be thinking of
ways of reusing that technologymore and more, we have to figure
out how to use the machines thatwe're still stuck with.
(34:37):
Um, yeah.
Ernest (34:39):
I remember the, the old days of expansion cards and PCs
and, you know, as janky as thatwas, it did enable you to extend
the life of your, uh, computer,you know, and really, uh, add a
lot of very specificfunctionality as you needed it.
And, um, it would be great tosee us come back to that in the
(35:02):
future.
Uh, a modern way, you know,you've mentioned there's some
examples of it, but I thinkthere's a lot of opportunity
there.
Joachim (35:10):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I think we really haven't tappedinto it because we didn't have,
we've not had to, and necessityhasn't driven us to that point.
If we're throwing away thesehighly capable phones that are,
more powerful than any of thecomputers we had access to
during the 90s.
It would be prudent of us tostart investing in figuring out
how to use these technologiesfor longer.
(35:31):
And yeah, it's a shame we don't,we don't do that.
Ernest (35:36):
Did you want to touch on any of the other,
Joachim (35:39):
Yeah.
So it's not really related toany of the things that we're
talking about, but it is relatedto technology and, and product
design.
So, circles right now, there'sbasically two or three pieces of
software that control all ofaudio production.
Uh, one of those pro tools,which has been around forever,
um, logic, which is apple'sproduct.
(36:02):
And then there's somethingcalled Ableton and that product
is live Ableton life., it has areally interesting history.
It was built by two musicianswho just wanted to make software
that would be usable in a livecontext.
So they were really frustratedby things you couldn't play
around with the arrangements.
You couldn't improvise.
(36:23):
So they created this piece ofsoftware that handled that.
The lesson about this softwareis one thing, but I'll tell you
one little tangent that I foundout recently about their
history.
So, The powerful thing about thesoftware when it first came out
was its ability to just be ahighly capable beat matching
piece of software.
So you could just drag samplesand loops and they would all be
(36:46):
immediately synchronized to themaster clock time that you'd
set.
without changing the pitch.
So if you think about, you wantto slow down a beat, generally
the pitch would have to go down.
Or if you want to speed it up,the pitch goes up, like
imagining running a recordreally fast or really slowly.
Well, these guys have a way ofdoing it without changing the
pitch, which is a big deal forpeople who make electronic
(37:06):
music.
So they present the software atNAMM, which is like huge trade
show.
It's huge.
Like all instruments, allsoftware, everyone is showing
this.
They are nobody like no onecares who this small outfit is.
And they only have the betaversion of the software.
So they're tucked away in themiddle of nowhere, no man's
land.
(37:28):
And this is one of the cofounders describing the story,
his name is Robert Henke.
Some dude with a German accentshows up and he's like, Hey, so
what's this software?
And he demonstrates the, youknow, drop a sample in, it just
plays the loop.
And then he's like, wait, butwhat's this?
Can you change the time withoutchanging the pitches?
Like, yeah, that's the wholepoint.
(37:48):
And he did demonstrate that.
And he says, can you do it whilethe sample is playing plays the
sample, slows it down, you know,perfect.
Nothing, nothing.
It's done.
Okay.
What if I wanted to draw a curveand just have it like move
continuously?
He said, Oh yeah.
And he opens how he can changethe, and this guy's like, Oh,
okay.
And then he, and he just walksoff.
(38:11):
And then after that guy leaves.
They start getting this constantflow of LA music professionals
coming in and they're all likeWell, yeah, my friend told me
that we should check out thesoftware.
My friend, Hans, Hans Zimmer oflike Gladiator and every movie
soundtrack right now, like thisis Hans Zimmer who had been
(38:34):
testing.
So he was picking them up in theother parts of the
Ernest (38:37):
That's awesome.
Joachim (38:38):
of interesting thing is like, so they were getting
traction with that software, butHenke, the co founder points out
a really interesting thing aboutthe product.
When it was launched, it looked.
very drab.
and even now when you get it,it's all gray, mostly monochrome
and green was kind of the color.
So color wasn't a big deal.
(38:58):
And it was all flat, whichnowadays seems very modern.
All things are very flat.
We don't have fake 3d buttons,right?
We don't try and make it feellike a physical thing.
So them just doing everythingflat.
at the time in the early 2000sseemed wrong because you have
these computers, they can makeeverything look real.
And in fact, one of the mostsuccessful pieces of software at
(39:19):
the time for music creation wasa thing called Reason.
And they literally created Afake rack of soft, of machines
and you'd flip the machine overand the cables would animate and
you could pull the cables out.
I mean, they were spent efforton that.
And then Ableton comes alongwith this flat, just very basic
(39:39):
grid, but very powerful tool.
And so Henke says that it wassuch ugly software.
But no one took it seriously forso long.
And they said, once someone seesthis technology, these ideas of
being able to beat match and,you do this loop manipulations
(40:00):
and all of that, the big guysare going to come and crush us.
It's not going to take much forthem to do that.
And because it was so Ugly andno one cared people treated it
like a joke.
And they had an opportunity togo from Ableton version 1, 1.
5, to 2.
And 2 and 3 is when they startedestablishing themselves.
(40:21):
And by that point, it was toolate.
The big guys started payingattention, and they're like,
well now what?
Like that, that brand is nowsynonymous with the grid and the
way they manipulate samples.
And so he said it was, it was ablessing that their software was
so bad because no one took itseriously.
Otherwise people would havecrushed them immediately.
And it's a really interestinglesson, like maybe making
(40:43):
something ugly in the digitaldomain that has a core of
highly, highly usabletechnology.
But the aesthetic of it is notappealing, lets you fly under
the radar and establish a coreaudience of people that
appreciate the functionality andthe thought that went into it.
And then later on, you can startbuilding out that other stuff to
get the mainstream use.
(41:03):
And in the music domain, that'squite common to just see a big
manufacturer take an idea andsay, well, that's ours.
Now we just fold it into our,um, into our main software So an
interesting little lesson.
And there's a.
podcast episode where theydiscuss the stuff.
So we'll link to that.
Um, and you can see thetranscript a bit, but he talks
about Hans Zimmer paying a visitso it makes sense that he would,
(41:28):
this stuff would appeal to him.
Ernest (41:30):
Oh, that's so awesome.
I love that.
Hey, I just, I really like thesentiment as well of it.
Yeah, we're just in such thishave been for so long of just
scale.
Everything is about scale,scale, scale.
And yeah, there's a place forthat, right?
I guess if you're Facebook, thenyou need scale and Apple.
(41:52):
But if you're a startup, I thinkit's such a great example that
you don't have to do with whateveryone else is doing.
You can, I mean, yes, it's hard.
If you can take that time tofind your audience and create
this authentic connection bytaking them on a journey with
(42:14):
you, I think you can create thisvery durable Uh, brand and value
proposition that then is, uh,defensible, you know, just like
you're saying, um, from the bigbrands.
So, uh, gosh, I just, it's agreat story and hopefully people
take it to heart and, and seethat there's more than just one
(42:37):
way to approach digital productcreation or, you know, physical
product creation as well.
Joachim (42:43):
For sure.
And it starts with a real idea,right?
It's not, it was a clear thingthat musicians wanted to have,
and they wanted to use thetechnology for.
And these two musicians,Basically built a solution for
themselves and were then allowedto bring it to market and let
people learn about it.
Ernest (43:01):
Right.
One last thing, I guess, is justanother, to me, it's another
illustration of companies thatwe, I think, tend to love most
are the companies created bypeople who made the thing out of
necessity.
Like we've talked about a fewexamples.
Snowpeak was the same becausethey wanted, something and it
(43:23):
didn't exist.
So they made it and they reallywere passionate about it.
And you see that come throughand that's why they're willing
to stick through, you know,stick with it and continue to
iterate it.
And, um, you know, it's Nikecame from that passion as well.
Apple came from that as well.
And, um, I think that's theopportunity for small brands
because Apple today.
(43:44):
Does, you know, I'd say everyday you see less and less of
that, right?
Like, is anybody at Appleactually using Siri?
Because if they are, then Ican't imagine how it could
possibly be this in the state itis if they're actually using it.
So, you know, you just get thesense every day that they're no
longer a company of people whoare passionate about using the
things they make.
Um, So, you know, that's theopportunity if you're a startup
(44:07):
is, is to build around thatpassion, uh, and, you know, eat
your own dog food, you know, isthe expression, right.
To, to, to make it this productthat you use and, and, um, and
that you love to use.
So yeah, I think that does kindof connect a lot of these things
that we've talked about today.
Joachim (44:26):
Yeah.
There's definitely a vibeconnection as always with all
the things that we talk about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ernest (44:31):
All right.
Well, I think that, That's itfor this episode.
Um, as I mentioned earlier, wewant to hear from you.
Do you have experience withanything we recommended this
week?
If so, what's your perspective?
or maybe there's a product orservice you'd love to hear us
focus on through the lens ofproduct marketing or product
innovation.
Whether it's a request, aquestion or an observation,
(44:53):
please share your thoughts withus at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com,
or on threads at learn, make,learn, show, learn.
All one word.
Thanks for listening, and wehope you'll join us for the next
Learn Make Learn.
Hello, and welcome to Learn, Make, Learn, where we
share qualitative andquantitative perspectives on
products and services.
to help you make better.
My name is Ernest Kim, and I'mjoined by my friend and co host,
Joachim Groeger.
Hey Joachim, how's it going?
Joachim (00:18):
I'm good.
I'm tired.
I was gonna say I'm happy it'sthe weekend, but it is the end
of the weekend as we recordthis, so I'm not sure, uh, I'm
not sure how to feel about it.
I, it is, it, it was a longweek.
We were done with that.
It's very good.
Um, so, but happy to be havinganother small episode recording.
(00:38):
I think this will be good.
How about you?
Ernest (00:40):
yeah, yeah, same.
I think it's that time of yearas well where the days are
getting a bit shorter.
So uh, I, I think I'm feelingthat as well.
The weekends seem a little bitshorter because the days are
shorter, but yeah, same, alsovery excited to be, uh, with
you.
recording another of these, um,shorter format episodes.
This is episode 22.
(01:01):
And, um, actually, last time weasked for feedback, uh, as to
what we should call theseepisodes.
And it looks like Off the Cuffhas received the most listener
support to date.
So, um, Joachim, what do youthink?
Are you good to go withreferring to these as Off the
Cuff episodes?
Joachim (01:18):
let's do it.
Yeah.
Let's do off the cuff.
I'm happy with that.
Ernest (01:23):
All right.
Well, um, as ever, we lovehearing from you.
So, Please do keep sharing yourfeedback and questions with us
at learnmakelearn at gmail.
com or on threads atlearnmakelearnshow, all one
word.
All right, now let's move on toour recommendations.
Joachim, you want to get usstarted?
Joachim (01:43):
I'm going to actually recommend a product
Ernest (01:45):
Hey.
Joachim (01:46):
I'm going to recommend the Miele Complete C3 Calima
Powerline Vacuum Cleaner.
It's an interesting device formany reasons.
it's almost a throwback vacuumcleaner in many ways.
So Dyson is kind of the namethat's synonymous with moving
vacuum cleaners into the 21stcentury with its dual cyclone
(02:11):
approach to vacuum cleaners.
Inspired by how sawmills extractsawdust, um, via a kind of
cyclone process.
That's what, James Dyson himselfsaid was his inspiration for
that.
And he thought, well, what ifthere was a way to put that into
a small vacuum cleaner?
And then you would have abagless vacuum cleaner, which is
(02:32):
essentially what the sawmillshave.
And potentially you never losesuction and all of those
benefits.
we've adjusted to the idea thatthat is the way to do it.
Bagless vacuum cleaners are kindof the norm, and it's very rare
to see anyone make a brand newvacuum cleaner with a bag.
It feels like a really dirty,wasteful, outdated way of doing
(02:53):
stuff.
But we have owned cyclone basedhoovers for a while.
In fact, I actually owned aMiele cyclone based battery
powered one for a while, andthey're just all They don't do a
good job.
I I'm I have really We've had aDyson, um, not battery powered,
(03:15):
mains powered and it was fine,but it would get quite dirty.
And it was very finicky to keepclean.
I always assumed, I guess thetechnology is letting it never
lose suction and all of thosethings.
And so I really just thoughtthat was the only way things
could be.
But then I was getting so fed upwith that whole approach, I just
(03:38):
said, what else is out there?
And Miele, They still makevacuum cleaners with bags, which
really I found so superpuzzling., so I bought it
knowing that I could return it,uh, if, if everything went
wrong, so I got it through avery large online retailer that
isn't super strict with returnsand I have to say, um, Man, what
(04:01):
a product.
We've had it now for about sixmonths, I would say, and I
fastidiously hoover the housequite regularly.
We have three kids.
There's always a mess.
There's always somethingcrunching under my feet.
So a hoover that is alwaysoperational is necessary it's a
really good machine.
So there are all these littledesign features that make it an
(04:24):
incredibly capable machine.
It is pricey, what are yougetting with that extra money?
It's like with watches, fit andfinish.
Everything fits together,nothing's wiggling around,
things lock in place, thingsclip in place, and everything is
just, it feels.
high quality.
(04:44):
The way it looks is prettynondescript.
It just looks like a normalvacuum cleaner, but, um, little
details that make it a veryusable machine that are worth
pointing out.
The casters that it rolls on,move in all directions.
I remember when Hoovers just hadtwo big rear wheels and a little
caster on the front that couldrotate.
This thing can move sideways,forwards, 360, any way you want
(05:05):
it to go.
Super smooth, really great.
And when you're just movingaround the house, uh, being able
to just kind of, this is notgood, but, yank it by the hose
so that you can get it to whereyou want.
I know, it's not the right wayto use it, but.
It is the way I need to use it,so it will follow me around the
house very easily.
Um, the cable is incrediblylong, it also retracts with one
(05:28):
touch of the button, the wholecable is retracted, it's, it's
great, it can stow away, it'sstill super light, and it uses a
bag.
And so far, I have not seen anyreduction in the performance of
this, um, Hoover as time goeson, which then got me thinking,
to what extent was that really alittle bit of a myth, that there
was this incredible loss ofsuction from the bag getting
(05:48):
clogged up.
Maybe the machines have justgotten better and they have more
output or the bags have gottenbetter.
I've not had an issue with it atall.
And it's incredibly good.
The bag I have not had toreplace, which sounds kind of
potentially gross, but It issealed off in its little, in a
little container, um, and thereare no strange smells or
(06:10):
anything like that.
And it's very easy to replacethe back.
It has a little clipping,plastic clip, sliding clip
thing.
You just pull it out and you canthrow the whole thing away.
It feels very wasteful.
But then again, you still haveto do filters and all of those
things for cyclone vacuumcleaners as well.
And it's not, you have to scrubthem, clean them.
So I'm totally sold on thebagged vacuum cleaner right now.
(06:30):
The convenience.
is great, but I think theperformance is the thing that's
really marking it out.
So it's kind of a weirdthrowback technology.
I was really looking forward tobuying this thing and giving it
a try because it's so oldfashioned in many ways.
But I do think that it's aninteresting case study in how
(06:51):
narrative and marketing andbranding just can wash over the
entire truth of what is a goodmachine and what is a bad
machine.
And I think every manufacturerhad to get onto that bandwagon.
merely to show that they aretaking this idea seriously, even
if there was zero merit to it.
(07:12):
I assume that when Dyson cameout, many manufacturers just
said, no, you don't have toworry about that.
This is just hype.
But I think that's justsomething about seeing your dust
spinning around in one of thoseDyson machines that made people
feel like I'm getting somethingclean, right?
Vacuum cleaners, everything isconcealed inside of the box and
you don't see a thing.
Um, and Dyson is very smart andlike, show the cyclone, like
(07:34):
show them the thing spinning,show it.
getting all that stuff..
I don't know.
whether there is truth to thisloss of suction.
I think eventually towards theend of the life of that bag, a
hundred percent, it's going toget clogged and that's it.
But same thing with your cyclonething.
If you keep going, it's, it'sgoing to stop spinning air and
nothing's going to work anymore.
(07:55):
I think, a challenge to anyonewho's out there, like, is there
any value in the cyclone thingversus a back thing?
Because I, in my daily use, haveactually found the opposite to
be true.
So I don't know.
What kind of Hoover do you have?
I don't want to spend too muchtime on this topic.
It's, I have a couple of otherthings I want to talk about, but
what kind of Hoover do you
Ernest (08:12):
the funny thing is we have a very similar amulet
model.
It's a predecessor, I think theycalled it the, um, C3 cat and
dog model or something likethat.
But it came with, you know, someattachments that were
particularly useful if you hadpets, but we have that.
And we've had that for over adecade now and it's continued to
(08:33):
be absolutely rock solid.
Uh, we do also have a Dyson.
I forget which model exactly,but, um, we've had the Dyson for
about four years now and it'sjust starting to give us some
issues where it's not holding acharge.
Uh, so yeah, yeah, that isannoying.
(08:54):
Um, but I was curious, what ledyou to the Mila?
Like, could you talk through,cause you know, it is a bit of a
counterintuitive thing cause theDyson form factor is like so
dominant nowadays.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Joachim (09:12):
uh, I think Brexit.
is the start of my journey.
James Dyson was a vocalsupporter of Brexit.
He was one of the businessleaders that was insistent that
people come back into theoffices before there had been a
full rollout of vaccinationsduring COVID.
(09:32):
He was totally unsympathetic tothe fears and concerns of his
workers, who are the lifebloodof his company.
Then, after he lectured everyonein the country and the UK about
the patriotic duty of, uh,voting for Brexit, he then moved
the company abroad.
So he's just kind of adouchebag.
Um, so, that was the beginningof it.
(09:55):
And, all of that just left afunny, funky aftertaste in my
mouth when I thought about him.
My, my journey started with, uh,Hoover's, not Dyson.
you know, we'd, we'd owned aDyson before the handheld one's
incredibly loud as well, whichreally was, um, I was shocked
how loud that machine was.
(10:16):
The Miele C3 is pretty damnquiet, and it has multiple
modes.
So you can go from a whispermode all the way up to a high
powered rug mode, which I assumeyou'll see your Miele can also
probably do.
You can switch between thosemodes.
That has also been reallyuseful, uh, depending on the
surface.
Man, the thing is prettylightweight.
It's sturdy.
(10:37):
And like I said, it's that formand fit that gives you
confidence that this is going todo okay for the long run.
And I can see a distinct qualitydifference between the Miele
that we had, which was a batterypowered unit, not made in
Germany, no offense to anyone,but clearly built on a budget,
should I say, like it is a morebudget friendly device, even
though it's still veryexpensive.
(10:58):
There is a distinct differencethat you just feel immediately.
it's that fit and form and theclicking.
This is the thing that you'repaying for when you look at
watches, right?
It's the expense is just thatlittle extra refinement in the
way the thing is put togetherwith care.
Yeah,
Ernest (11:13):
I'm irrationally enamored with that power cord
retraction feature that youmentioned.
It's amazing how well it worksand 10 years plus on it
continues to work.
That's perfect every time.
It's like, I'm amazed that itcan do that.
Yeah.
Joachim (11:32):
and so powerful.
It's, it is one click and theentire chord retracts.
really fast.
And it's just so wonderful.
It's a very satisfying machineto be working with, to do such
a, you know, very, boring,tedious task that is no fun,
having a machine that gives youa little bit of joy and pleasure
during that is, I think makes a,it makes a huge difference.
(11:56):
So the premium, yes, it is apremium machine, but you're
using the damn thing every day.
Why don't you get somethingthat's actually worth enjoying?
Ernest (12:04):
Right.
I wonder how Um, Mila hasmanaged the transition in terms
of, in historical, there used tobe vacuum stores.
I don't know if this was thecase in Europe, but in the U.
S.
there used to be stores,specialty vacuum stores, and
those have for the most partgone away.
So I wonder if that's been achallenge for Mila.
Because I imagine it must bedifficult to sell someone on You
(12:27):
know, 800, 900 plus vacuumwithout being able to try it
out.
Did you buy yours online?
Joachim (12:36):
I did, I did.
I bought it online.
To be honest, Dennis, if I hadlived in Portland, I might have
gone to Stark's Vacuum Cleaners.
Are they still around?
That was a shop, that was like ashop, but I don't know if
they're
Ernest (12:50):
I know.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure if they do stillexist or not.
I'll double check.
Joachim (12:57):
Yeah, if, if any city would still have a vacuum shop,
it would have to be Portland atthis point.
I think it's the only place thatwould do that.
But yeah, no, I bought oursonline.
And like I said, I, knowing thatwe could return it was a big
Ernest (13:08):
Right, right.
Joachim (13:09):
It would be nice if there are more cheesy showrooms
where you could actually justtry one of these out, but you
know, YouTube videos are thenext best thing.
Would have been interesting tohave like a vacuum salesman try
and sell me on it as well.
I don't know.
I don't know that thatexperience, it doesn't happen
very often anymore.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(13:29):
So that was, that's one of my,my quick recommendations.
I'm happy to alternate towhatever you've got on us and we
can bounce off of your stuff.
Ernest (13:36):
Oh, sure.
Yeah.
I've got, uh, just one I wantedto share.
Um, maybe it might lead to afollow up, a related
conversation, but the product, Ialso, it's also a physical
product.
It's from a company called SnowPeak, uh, that makes outdoor
gear.
It's a company that is based inJapan, but, um, now it has
international presence.
(13:57):
And the specific product istheir.
IGT line.
Um, but I'll just give you alittle background in case
anyone's not familiar with SnowPeak because it is still
somewhat under the radar brand.
Um, it was, Snow Peak wasfounded in 1958 in Niigata
Prefecture in Japan by a personnamed Yukio Yamai.
(14:19):
And as the company tells it,Yukio returned to his hometown
after serving in the militaryduring World War II and found
solace in climbing.
Mount Tanigawa, which is areally treacherous peak that's
considered one of the 100 famousmountains of Japan.
And as he wrote in his journal,quote, we link our lives
(14:39):
together by a single rope and itgives us such a beautiful sense
of trust in each other.
It is such a pure thing.
If we could capture the feelingand harness it for the good of
society, certainly everythingbad or evil would fall away.
unquote.
So, um, you know, you can kindof get the sense from that, that
climbing really changed his lifeand became really important to
(15:02):
him.
And he wanted more people to beable to experience it.
But he found that, uh, theclimbing gear that was available
in Japan just wasn't goodenough, at least, you know, by
his standards.
And so basically necessitybecame the mother of invention
and Snow Peak was born.
And, you know, Snowpeak is quitedifferent from most, uh, Western
(15:24):
outdoor product brands in thatthey deliver products that allow
for, um, a type of campingthat's much more common in Asia,
which is sort of, I guess, whatwe would call like car camping
or, um, what's that called?
Uh, like deluxe camping.
There's a term for it.
I can't remember what it'scalled.
Yeah, I guess it's sort of morelike glamping, but it's just
(15:48):
kind of the more common style ofcamping that you would
experience in Japan and SouthKorea as well.
And so, um, the products tend tobe.
Maybe, you know, certainly notthe sorts of things that you're
going to go hike into anywherewith.
Uh, they're really the sorts ofthing that, that you would bring
in your car.
Um, so just to give you some,some context on it, but their
(16:11):
IGT system, IGT stands for irongrill table that kind of was the
genesis of it, but fundamentallyit's a modular system.
And that's why I wanted to shareit because It is really the
antithesis of the minimum viableproduct concept in that it's,
it's, um, absolutely not theleast common denominator
(16:37):
solution in that it's, it canactually be, seem very
overwhelming at first, but whatyou get in exchange is that it
can be incredibly powerful.
Um, so at its core, the IGT isjust a frame for a table.
So the core of it is this frame,uh, it's mostly aluminum and
(17:01):
some very, uh, robust nylon.
And then you add on all theseother elements, even the legs
you add on, it doesn't come withthe legs.
And the reason for that is thatthat means that you can get legs
of different height.
Uh, they offer, I think threedifferent heights, three or four
even.
Um, and then within that frame,they have.
(17:23):
Um, now I believe they offer twodifferent widths of frame and
the, the frames are made up ofset unit widths.
So, uh, the, the kind of mostpopular frame is a three unit
frame.
(17:44):
And then they sell all of theseaccessories that fit into the
frame.
Um, and I know this is gonna,it's very difficult to picture
just through, uh, words, sowe'll share copious links in the
show notes as well.
But you can get, um, a one unitbin that would fit into the
frame.
(18:04):
You could get, uh, A two unitburner.
So, you know, it would occupytwo of those units.
Um, they're all kinds of, youcan even get a sink that would
occupy one of those units.
You can have add ons that youcan use to extend, uh, the, the,
the frame on, on its sides.
(18:25):
You can even have frames ofdifferent heights attached to
each other.
So you can create theseincredible Um, setups, uh, that
really are tailored exactly toyour needs in terms of the size
of your group, the type ofcooking you're doing.
Um, but it's, it's this reallycool product that is at its core
(18:48):
modular, you know, that's reallyenvisioned from its very Genesis
as a modular system.
And I just love that.
It's this example of kind of theopposite of that.
MVP thinking that's so commonthese days in the digital space,
and instead it's How can wemaximize value, uh, by spending
(19:10):
a lot of time up front thinkingabout the many different use
cases that our customers mightneed and then building a system
that is modular and modularenough to accommodate that.
And I just love that.
And it's, I think it is quiteunusual.
I'll maybe talk through some,some of the reasons why I think
it is pretty unusual.
(19:31):
It's there are some otherexamples though.
Like, um, there's a.
a bag brand that I really lovebased in Seattle, actually
called Tom, Tom bean bags, B I HN.
Again, we'll provide links inthe show notes.
And in their case, they designedtheir bags again, around this
fix fixed units of size.
(19:53):
Uh, so you can get a bag andthen pair it with their packing
cubes that You know, you couldget a basically a one unit
packing cube or two unit packingcube and you know, there are
different bags will accommodatethose different sizes of add
ons.
And then in addition to packingcubes, they have all kinds of
different accessories that youcan use to extend the.
(20:14):
The functionality of that corebag that you have.
So Tom Bean is a great example.
I think there's, you know, otherexamples too, like for example,
um, in the furniture space,Charles and Ray Eames, a lot of
their furniture pieces andconcepts were fundamentally
modular.
Um, they even designed a modularhouse concept, which
unfortunately I don't think wasever actually manufactured,
(20:36):
brought to manufactured.
But, um, it was the concept, uh,it was a prefab, uh, modular
house concept.
So, um, you can, you seeexamples of this, uh, I'd say
another example in the digitalspace would be like Minecraft.
Um, you know, I, I think that'sa great example of something
that is fundamentally modularwas designed to be extended by
(20:58):
the end user.
Um, I wouldn't consider gameslike, for example, Fortnite that
allow for in game cosmetics.
To me, that's not.
Modular in that it's not really,you know, cosmetics aren't
really fundamentally changingthe functionality of the overall
system.
They're almost more likestickers, which is why I think
(21:20):
the name, the label cosmetics iskind of an apt label for what
they are.
So I think things more in thevein of a Minecraft where you
can fundamentally change thefunctionality of the system.
Uh, that's kind of what I meanwhen I talk about modular and to
me, the IGT.
System from Snowpeak and alsoTom Bean's bags are reflections
of that in the physical space.
(21:41):
Um, I think, you know, if you,you kind of think about this
from a product creationperspective, I think there are
reasons why modularity tends tobe the exception rather than the
rule.
Uh, for one thing, it is morecomplicated from a product
creation and a line planningperspective because modular
products have to work together.
You know, they'reinterdependent.
Um, And so, you know, itrequires more planning upfront,
(22:04):
more thinking upfront, and thenit can also create some pretty
big challenges from an inventorymanagement perspective.
You know, for example, in thecase of Snowpeak's IGT system,
if their core frame happens tobe out of stock, then that can
really significantly reducedemand for, for any of those
other modules that go with thatframe, uh, with that core frame.
(22:27):
Uh, you know, by contrast, ifyou were to just offer a line of
standalone camping tables,inventory of any one of those
tables, isn't going to affectthe others.
In fact, actually, if inventoryof one table were to go, you
know, um, if one of those tableswere to sell out, it might
actually create increased demandfor the other ones.
Um, so.
Yeah.
You know that it createschallenges.
And I think that's why thisinventory complexity is a big
(22:48):
reason why brands that havesucceeded with a modular
approach are almost alwayswholly or largely direct to
consumer.
Um, you know, because it can bereally difficult to persuade a
third party retail partner tocarry enough units.
Of enough of your skews to makea modular platform viable for a
consumer shopping at thatretailer.
(23:08):
Um, and then speaking ofconsumers, modularity can also
be complicated to explain toconsumers.
And I think that this isdefinitely true of Snowpeak's
IGT system.
It can feel really overwhelmingat first.
And the way Snowpeak hasaddressed this complexity is by
creating.
really rich retail experiences,both in their stores and they
(23:32):
have this really innovativething they called Campfield,
which are Essentiallycampgrounds that they've created
that allow you to experiencetheir products, you know, in the
way that they're meant to beused, you know, in the context
in which they're meant to beused.
Um, and the same with the retailstores.
If you, uh, they don't have thatmany of them in the States, but,
(23:53):
uh, if you have an opportunityto visit one, they're just so
fantastic in that they have thegear set up so you can, you
know, See them in context andsee how you'd use them.
And it really illustrates why,uh, Snowpeak's modular approach
delivers more value than, youknow, kind of typical standalone
sort of product.
(24:13):
Um, and then one last, I'd saykind of pro and con from a
product creation perspective isthat modularity creates.
It's hard constraints, you know,because those jigsaw pieces have
to fit together and you know,that can impose design
challenges.
But um, as you, Joachim, youknow, have highlighted in
previous episodes, constraintscan also be a powerful catalyst
(24:37):
for innovation.
And I, I absolutely see that inthe case of Snowpeak's IGT
system, they've come up with allthese ingenious, you know, Add
ons to this core system, and Ithink that constraint has
allowed them to be so much moreinnovative, you know, because if
you're just creating a wholebunch of standalone, uh,
(24:57):
products, you can be innovative,but it can be also, I don't
know, very confusing.
You end up with all thesedifferent products that have all
their own unique valuepropositions, whereas in the
case of Snowpeak's IGT system,everything enhances the value
proposition of that.
System.
(25:18):
Um, and I think that isfundamentally what makes a
modular system so compelling andpowerful is that every product
makes every other product inthat system more valuable, uh,
as a, you know, um, brand, I'dsay that's the case for
Snowpeak, but also as.
(25:38):
The customer, you know, everytime I add a piece onto my
simple core, it becomes morevaluable, the system as a whole.
And then also that individualpiece that I've just added on.
So it's so cool to be part of anecosystem like that.
I'd say kind of whether this isintentional or not, one other
(26:03):
Um, side effect of a modularsystem is that it does increase
switching costs.
Um, you know, because I've nowbought into the system, I've
added on all these differentmodules, and so I'm much less
likely to now switch to someother, um, you know, Table or
whatever the case may be thatwon't work with that system.
(26:23):
So, um, I think that, uh,Snowpeak as a brand, but also
their IGT system in particularhas a lot.
There's a lot you can learn fromthat as a product creator,
whether you're making productsfor, you know, physical products
or digital products.
Do you have any experience withSnowpeak's products?
Uh,
Joachim (26:41):
haven't actually had any experience with Snowpeak
products.
Um, but I have browsed thewebsite not because I'm not a
camper, but I am a gear fiend.
So I, and I had, I did look atthe designs of the, um, the IGT
system, which is very, it's veryneat and very clever.
I think this whole theme ofmodularity is.
(27:04):
touching on a nerve for me ingeneral, because there's
something very, we've talkedabout it before, which is having
a system that is adaptable to ashifting set of needs is, is the
ideal in so many ways.
Uh, and funnily enough, justbefore we hopped onto this, I
(27:25):
was looking at modularbookshelves as a thing we've,
we've held off on buying.
IKEA bookshelves or whatever,cheap bookshelves, MDF
bookshelves, because we want tohave a nice library set up.
So all our books are still incrates, uh, and we're just
trying to find the, the rightsolution.
And I've always had my eye ontwo specific solutions.
(27:46):
One is, By Dieter Rams of Brown,his thing called
Ernest (27:51):
uh,
Joachim (27:52):
which is a modular bookshelf system.
It uses these rails that areeither suspended in the middle
of, you know, clamped betweenthe floor and the ceiling and
you hang things off it.
Or you can screw that frame intoa wall and you hang sister
shelves off that, uh, drawerunits.
desk units, anything goes onceyou have that frame in place,
(28:13):
you can basically do anything.
Uh, and then the other companythat does a good job is USM.
Ernest (28:17):
right.
Joachim (28:18):
These are all premium products, right?
These are like investmentproducts, but USM has this, um,
little metal ball that has I'mtrying to think now, like enough
from every plane, like littlethreading.
So you can put screws and youcan basically construct these
bookshelves.
Um, extend them, shrink themdown, using this very, very
(28:40):
straightforward system of rodsand little ball.
And for the like, with which ofthe nodes where all the, the
rods come together to create acorner or create a shelf.
And that's also a system thathas, uh, doors, glass doors, uh,
blank pieces.
desk things, pullout units, likeit's pretty limitless at that
(29:02):
point.
But what I think is alsointeresting about physical
modular systems is they are verylegible in the sense that if I
wanted to make my own things, Icould.
make my own attachments andmodules for this system.
(29:23):
So the USM thing there's nothingstopping me from measuring the
threading, figuring out whatscrews go in there.
In fact, there is a secondcompany that's out of Germany
that has made a compatiblesystem with the USM that is much
cheaper, but only ships inEurope.
I already looked, uh, they're afraction of the price.
Uh, they make some of the stuffin the Czech Republic, but
(29:43):
they're, they don't use thesecute little balls.
They have more of a cube shapeto them, but totally compatible
with the USM system.
That's the amazing thing about aphysical modular system is that
it is so legible.
So repairs, extending ityourself, you could conceivably
get a piece 3d printed or madeby someone if you want to keep
(30:05):
something going.
Um, awesome.
because it's immediately visiblehow it works.
it's not a mystery how themodules fit in.
I think this is the same thingwith the Snowpeak IGT.
It's very clear, So you can makeyour own version of something if
you really, really wanted toyourself or ask someone to help
you do that.
So Like you said, there is lockin.
This is an ecosystem that you'rejoining.
However, it's legible andtherefore it is still in your
(30:29):
control to be able to use it.
Even if the company disappears,this physical representation,
this modular system still canexist.
Right.
And so, um, I think that's, andit's difficult to design these
things.
Well, I think it makes sensethat it only occurs in certain
domains like bookshelves, arelative, you know, furniture is
pretty straightforward.
I'm not sure if we've mentionedthis in the past, but the
(30:52):
framework laptop is a goodexample of a complex
technological device that, thatis able to be pretty damn
modular, right?
The, the essential chassisremains fixed.
It's a shell and inside of that,the components come in so you
can, you know, remove the entiremotherboard and upgrade the
(31:12):
chipset and, and switchcompletely from anything that
you want.
Tiny modules for power, USB,external, you know, drive
systems, hard drives, whateveryou need, hot swappable to a
certain extent, screens, uh,replaceable.
Yeah, I just want, I want moreof that.
Ernest (31:30):
I think you're right, too, that this sort of modular
approach is going to be soimportant looking ahead as you
think about Sustainability andthe need to keep products for
longer.
I think one great way to enablethat is to create modular
systems where you can addfunctionality or very easily
(31:52):
repair parts that have failed.
Um, and I, it gives me great, Imean, to that point, it gives me
great confidence as well, whateither, whether it's Snowpeaks
IGT system or my Tom Bean bagsto know that.
I will, they will continue to bevaluable for me because they
(32:15):
have created this framework thatthey've stuck with for long
enough that to your point, nowthere are third parties parties
who've who now offer, you know,in the case of snow peak,
there's multiple third partiesor, um, uh, Tom Bean as well.
So yeah, cool.
That investment I've made willcontinue to have value and
(32:36):
actually I'll be able tocontinue to grow the value of it
over time because they've had todiscipline to create this
framework, establish thisframework and stick to it over
time.
I think it's so different fromthe approach that so many people
take, especially in the digitalspace.
But my hope is that it'ssomething that more people in
(32:58):
both the physical and digitaldomains will start to think
about as we.
enter into this era where, um,uh, you know, people don't have
quite as much money to spendand, you know, they want to
stretch that, uh, a bit further.
And, you know, to your pointabout USM being expensive, same
with the Snowpeak IGT stuff.
(33:19):
But at least for my, on my part,I'm willing to make that
investment because I haveconfidence that the value will
be there for over time.
Um, you know, it's not going tobe this kind of throwaway thing
where after a few years, like myDyson vacuum, I'm probably.
There's nothing I can do with itonce the battery stops working.
(33:39):
I, I don't believe it'srepairable.
So, um, I feel a lot betterabout, um, you know, being
willing to invest, uh, in thesemodular systems because I have
confidence that they're going tocontinue to have value over
time.
Joachim (33:55):
I mean, another way to get at the modularity is almost,
is, is after the fact sometimes,so, if one of your hard drives
is done in your laptop and youdon't need it anymore, you can
pull it out and then put it intoa case that has a USB on it and
then it becomes a portable harddrive.
So,, If there's a way to likeresurrect and repurpose a device
(34:16):
into a new space, that would begreat.
I would love to be able to, youknow, when my phone is done,
just wipe it, crack it open.
And someone says, just plug thisthing in.
It's going to turn your littlephone into a small, Linux
powered machine.
Like that would be amazing,yeah, we should be thinking of
ways of reusing that technologymore and more, we have to figure
out how to use the machines thatwe're still stuck with.
(34:37):
Um, yeah.
Ernest (34:39):
I remember the, the old days of expansion cards and PCs
and, you know, as janky as thatwas, it did enable you to extend
the life of your, uh, computer,you know, and really, uh, add a
lot of very specificfunctionality as you needed it.
And, um, it would be great tosee us come back to that in the
(35:02):
future.
Uh, a modern way, you know,you've mentioned there's some
examples of it, but I thinkthere's a lot of opportunity
there.
Joachim (35:10):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I think we really haven't tappedinto it because we didn't have,
we've not had to, and necessityhasn't driven us to that point.
If we're throwing away thesehighly capable phones that are,
more powerful than any of thecomputers we had access to
during the 90s.
It would be prudent of us tostart investing in figuring out
how to use these technologiesfor longer.
(35:31):
And yeah, it's a shame we don't,we don't do that.
Ernest (35:36):
Did you want to touch on any of the other,
Joachim (35:39):
Yeah.
So it's not really related toany of the things that we're
talking about, but it is relatedto technology and, and product
design.
So, circles right now, there'sbasically two or three pieces of
software that control all ofaudio production.
Uh, one of those pro tools,which has been around forever,
um, logic, which is apple'sproduct.
(36:02):
And then there's somethingcalled Ableton and that product
is live Ableton life., it has areally interesting history.
It was built by two musicianswho just wanted to make software
that would be usable in a livecontext.
So they were really frustratedby things you couldn't play
around with the arrangements.
You couldn't improvise.
(36:23):
So they created this piece ofsoftware that handled that.
The lesson about this softwareis one thing, but I'll tell you
one little tangent that I foundout recently about their
history.
So, The powerful thing about thesoftware when it first came out
was its ability to just be ahighly capable beat matching
piece of software.
So you could just drag samplesand loops and they would all be
(36:46):
immediately synchronized to themaster clock time that you'd
set.
without changing the pitch.
So if you think about, you wantto slow down a beat, generally
the pitch would have to go down.
Or if you want to speed it up,the pitch goes up, like
imagining running a recordreally fast or really slowly.
Well, these guys have a way ofdoing it without changing the
pitch, which is a big deal forpeople who make electronic
(37:06):
music.
So they present the software atNAMM, which is like huge trade
show.
It's huge.
Like all instruments, allsoftware, everyone is showing
this.
They are nobody like no onecares who this small outfit is.
And they only have the betaversion of the software.
So they're tucked away in themiddle of nowhere, no man's
land.
(37:28):
And this is one of the cofounders describing the story,
his name is Robert Henke.
Some dude with a German accentshows up and he's like, Hey, so
what's this software?
And he demonstrates the, youknow, drop a sample in, it just
plays the loop.
And then he's like, wait, butwhat's this?
Can you change the time withoutchanging the pitches?
Like, yeah, that's the wholepoint.
(37:48):
And he did demonstrate that.
And he says, can you do it whilethe sample is playing plays the
sample, slows it down, you know,perfect.
Nothing, nothing.
It's done.
Okay.
What if I wanted to draw a curveand just have it like move
continuously?
He said, Oh yeah.
And he opens how he can changethe, and this guy's like, Oh,
okay.
And then he, and he just walksoff.
(38:11):
And then after that guy leaves.
They start getting this constantflow of LA music professionals
coming in and they're all likeWell, yeah, my friend told me
that we should check out thesoftware.
My friend, Hans, Hans Zimmer oflike Gladiator and every movie
soundtrack right now, like thisis Hans Zimmer who had been
(38:34):
testing.
So he was picking them up in theother parts of the
Ernest (38:37):
That's awesome.
Joachim (38:38):
of interesting thing is like, so they were getting
traction with that software, butHenke, the co founder points out
a really interesting thing aboutthe product.
When it was launched, it looked.
very drab.
and even now when you get it,it's all gray, mostly monochrome
and green was kind of the color.
So color wasn't a big deal.
(38:58):
And it was all flat, whichnowadays seems very modern.
All things are very flat.
We don't have fake 3d buttons,right?
We don't try and make it feellike a physical thing.
So them just doing everythingflat.
at the time in the early 2000sseemed wrong because you have
these computers, they can makeeverything look real.
And in fact, one of the mostsuccessful pieces of software at
(39:19):
the time for music creation wasa thing called Reason.
And they literally created Afake rack of soft, of machines
and you'd flip the machine overand the cables would animate and
you could pull the cables out.
I mean, they were spent efforton that.
And then Ableton comes alongwith this flat, just very basic
(39:39):
grid, but very powerful tool.
And so Henke says that it wassuch ugly software.
But no one took it seriously forso long.
And they said, once someone seesthis technology, these ideas of
being able to beat match and,you do this loop manipulations
(40:00):
and all of that, the big guysare going to come and crush us.
It's not going to take much forthem to do that.
And because it was so Ugly andno one cared people treated it
like a joke.
And they had an opportunity togo from Ableton version 1, 1.
5, to 2.
And 2 and 3 is when they startedestablishing themselves.
(40:21):
And by that point, it was toolate.
The big guys started payingattention, and they're like,
well now what?
Like that, that brand is nowsynonymous with the grid and the
way they manipulate samples.
And so he said it was, it was ablessing that their software was
so bad because no one took itseriously.
Otherwise people would havecrushed them immediately.
And it's a really interestinglesson, like maybe making
(40:43):
something ugly in the digitaldomain that has a core of
highly, highly usabletechnology.
But the aesthetic of it is notappealing, lets you fly under
the radar and establish a coreaudience of people that
appreciate the functionality andthe thought that went into it.
And then later on, you can startbuilding out that other stuff to
get the mainstream use.
(41:03):
And in the music domain, that'squite common to just see a big
manufacturer take an idea andsay, well, that's ours.
Now we just fold it into our,um, into our main software So an
interesting little lesson.
And there's a.
podcast episode where theydiscuss the stuff.
So we'll link to that.
Um, and you can see thetranscript a bit, but he talks
about Hans Zimmer paying a visitso it makes sense that he would,
(41:28):
this stuff would appeal to him.
Ernest (41:30):
Oh, that's so awesome.
I love that.
Hey, I just, I really like thesentiment as well of it.
Yeah, we're just in such thishave been for so long of just
scale.
Everything is about scale,scale, scale.
And yeah, there's a place forthat, right?
I guess if you're Facebook, thenyou need scale and Apple.
(41:52):
But if you're a startup, I thinkit's such a great example that
you don't have to do with whateveryone else is doing.
You can, I mean, yes, it's hard.
If you can take that time tofind your audience and create
this authentic connection bytaking them on a journey with
(42:14):
you, I think you can create thisvery durable Uh, brand and value
proposition that then is, uh,defensible, you know, just like
you're saying, um, from the bigbrands.
So, uh, gosh, I just, it's agreat story and hopefully people
take it to heart and, and seethat there's more than just one
(42:37):
way to approach digital productcreation or, you know, physical
product creation as well.
Joachim (42:43):
For sure.
And it starts with a real idea,right?
It's not, it was a clear thingthat musicians wanted to have,
and they wanted to use thetechnology for.
And these two musicians,Basically built a solution for
themselves and were then allowedto bring it to market and let
people learn about it.
Ernest (43:01):
Right.
One last thing, I guess, is justanother, to me, it's another
illustration of companies thatwe, I think, tend to love most
are the companies created bypeople who made the thing out of
necessity.
Like we've talked about a fewexamples.
Snowpeak was the same becausethey wanted, something and it
(43:23):
didn't exist.
So they made it and they reallywere passionate about it.
And you see that come throughand that's why they're willing
to stick through, you know,stick with it and continue to
iterate it.
And, um, you know, it's Nikecame from that passion as well.
Apple came from that as well.
And, um, I think that's theopportunity for small brands
because Apple today.
(43:44):
Does, you know, I'd say everyday you see less and less of
that, right?
Like, is anybody at Appleactually using Siri?
Because if they are, then Ican't imagine how it could
possibly be this in the state itis if they're actually using it.
So, you know, you just get thesense every day that they're no
longer a company of people whoare passionate about using the
things they make.
Um, So, you know, that's theopportunity if you're a startup
(44:07):
is, is to build around thatpassion, uh, and, you know, eat
your own dog food, you know, isthe expression, right.
To, to, to make it this productthat you use and, and, um, and
that you love to use.
So yeah, I think that does kindof connect a lot of these things
that we've talked about today.
Joachim (44:26):
Yeah.
There's definitely a vibeconnection as always with all
the things that we talk about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ernest (44:31):
All right.
Well, I think that, That's itfor this episode.
Um, as I mentioned earlier, wewant to hear from you.
Do you have experience withanything we recommended this
week?
If so, what's your perspective?
or maybe there's a product orservice you'd love to hear us
focus on through the lens ofproduct marketing or product
innovation.
Whether it's a request, aquestion or an observation,
(44:53):
please share your thoughts withus at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com,
or on threads at learn, make,learn, show, learn.
All one word.
Thanks for listening, and wehope you'll join us for the next
Learn Make Learn.
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