Putting Your Weird to Work with the Co-Directors of The Brand Studios Program at CU Boulder

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ernest (00:04):
Hello and welcome to Learn Make Learn where we share
qualitative and quantitativeperspectives on products to help
you make better.
My name is Ernest Kim, and I'mjoined by my friend and co-host
Joachim Groeger.
Hey, Joachim, how's it going?

Joachim (00:18):
I am disorientated because we're recording on a
Monday,

Ernest (00:22):
Oh, right.

Joachim (00:23):
yeah, I'm just, what's going on?
This is not how the, the weeknormally begins.
So this is actually a reallynice way to start the week too,
with a, with a recording and a,and a conversation.
Um, so yeah, other, so otherthan that, I'm doing all right.
How about you?

Ernest (00:39):
I, I also feel a little disoriented in that, I think
this is the first time in monthsthat we've recorded episodes in
back to back weeks.

Joachim (00:48):
Yes.
Also true.
Yes.

Ernest (00:50):
Yeah.
But it's exciting.
It means, uh, we've got, uh,some good things to talk about.
And speaking of which, this isepisode 31 and, today we have an
interview episode that I thinkwe're both really excited about.
We are talking to ParisaTashakori and Jeff Gillette, the
co-directors of a new one yearmaster's level graduate program

(01:11):
called The Brand Studios at theUniversity of Colorado Boulder.
As Parisa and Jeff describe it,there are two sides to the

branding coin (01:19):
design and advertising.
So this unique new program iscomprised of two tracks, the
Design Studio led by Parisa andthe Ad Studio led by Jeff.
Over the course of ourconversation, we'll get to know
Parisa and Jeff, dive into thosetwo tracks of design and
advertising, discuss what makesthe program unique, as well as

(01:41):
the types of students that itcan uniquely benefit.

And of course we'll discuss AI: the role it plays in the (01:44):
undefined
program, as well as Parisa andJeff's perspectives on how it
might influence their respectivefields in the years ahead.
We've touched on design andadvertising in many of our
previous episodes, and ourinterview with UX Designer Nate
Grubbs, continues to be one ofour most downloaded
conversations.
So we think this topic andconversation are gonna be

(02:06):
relevant and interesting to alot of you out there.
But, uh, before we dive intothat, I want to emphasize that
we wanna hear from you.
If you have thoughts, questions,or corrections you'd like to
share, please send them our wayat Learn Make learn@gmail.com or
on threads at Learn, make learnshow, all one word, and who

(02:27):
knows?
As we did in our last episodewith Zoran Svetlicic, we may
bring you on as a guest, sodon't be shy with your feedback.
Alright, now just one last bitof business before we get to our
interview, and that'sfollow-ups.
Joachim, do you have anyfollow-ups to our previous
episode with Zoran or anyepisodes prior?

Joachim (02:45):
Um, I do actually, so a, a good friend of mine, my old
college friend, Mathias, who isalso a listener.
Thank you for listening,Mathias.
Um, he immediately sent me amessage about a coffee chain
called.
Lap.
Um, so this, oh, they, well,they're really called the Lap

(03:09):
Coffee.
um, uh, LAP is an acronym forLife Among People.
Uh, I don't know, I thinkingabout how Zoran was so
dismissive of Starbucks is, uh,tagline and their branding, what
was it, infinite HumanConnection or something like
that?
I was

Ernest (03:26):
Yes,

Joachim (03:27):
it's a little

Ernest (03:28):
like that.

Joachim (03:28):
but, so, um, lap Coffee is, uh, a European coffee chain
based out of Berlin.
So, um, kind of a cool trendytown.
And you would think Lap Coffeeis third wave, but European
style, Berlin style.
But no, they are actually aneven more stripped down coffee

(03:50):
space.
They have about, um, 15locations in Berlin, four in
Munich, and they keep expanding.
They're gonna go into Hamburg,which is close to my hometown.
Um, and they're, they're kindof, uh, I'll call it more
American.
They're VC backed.
They're about scaling andthey're about efficiencies.
And the crazy thing is, they'retrying to get into McDonald's

(04:14):
McCafe territory.
trying to do third wave coffeeat a price point that competes
with McDonald's.
they're trying to locatethemselves in, you know, high
foot traffic spaces, uh,stations, train stations, you
know, places like that.
They don't have vibes.
They don't care about vibes.
They just want the smallestamount of space, the most

(04:37):
efficient co coffee making theycan do, and as much automation
as they want.
Here are the prices, and I thinkthis is where you'll see how
this works.
So an espresso costs a Euro 50,which is about a

Ernest (04:46):
Wow.

Joachim (04:46):
75.
Um, and it's not just, you know,they're trying to get good beans
as

Ernest (04:52):
Right,

Joachim (04:52):
the shop.
So that's a drinkable espresso,I'll call it.
Not like a dark, dark roastwith, you know, no, no, uh,
character.
Um, so they're trying to hitthat third wave note with a
coffee, um, quality.
But the price point is nuts.
Like a dollar 75.
I mean, you know, in Portlandyou couldn't get an espresso for
that

Ernest (05:12):
right.

Joachim (05:13):
you know, it all goes.
And so Americana's are twoeuros, lattes are$3, uh, three
euros.
If you want an alternative milkor ice, it's all free.
So it's pretty crazy.
So this, they're going in atotally different direction.
Minimize their footprint, superscale efficient, keep the
quality high and the prices low,and they're going aggressively

(05:34):
against the low price,

Ernest (05:36):
Huh.

Joachim (05:36):
price point.
Really interesting from thatperspective.
Um, and, and therefore also kindof, um, you know, drawing a lot
of criticism because they're

Ernest (05:46):
Ah,

Joachim (05:46):
and they're trying to, you know, but Europeans, we, we
don't like these, uh, this, thisAmerican way of doing business.
Um, so the, it, it's coming in,you know, that.
some fears about what, whatthey're bringing to the, to
coffee culture in Berlin.
Are they shifting things in thewrong direction?
Is this gonna squeeze everyonebecause they're actually going
the other way.
They're, they're reallysqueezing.

(06:08):
Um, and they can do this.
And this, this expansion isfinanced by the vc.
So the question also is, isthere actually margin in that
one,

Ernest (06:16):
Hmm.

Joachim (06:16):
$1 75 espresso, or is it just that you've, you're kind
of like subsidizing right now,and your plan is to annihilate
the competition, take over allthe spaces, and then you'll
bring us back to the$4 espresso.
I mean, it's not clear.
Uh, the finance, the financialsare not clear to me, but.
It's, uh, it, it's aninteresting counterpoint.
So, um, someone is trying to godown the Walmart route with the

(06:39):
quality of coffee that a thirdwave coffee shop will be
bringing it to you.
And of all places it's happeningin Europe, which is really
surprising.
I know of all cities, it'sBerlin.
Again, to me, always surprising,but not.
It's also, you know, Berlin's abit of a tech hub and there's,
they've been attractingexpatriates for a long time and,
uh, yeah, why not give it a try?
I mean, a dollar 75 for anespresso and it's a good

(07:00):
espresso.
That's kind of crazy.
I don't know.

Ernest (07:04):
I think it, yeah.
It's so interesting.
It, it, it, it, um, brings tomind that Jeff Bezos-ism, that
you've cited a few times of yourmargin is my opportunity

Joachim (07:14):
Yes,

Ernest (07:14):
in a couple of ways.
You know, directly the margin,but also just the aspects of the
third wave coffee experiencethat maybe not everyone needs
and not every time they have acoffee, right?
So it does feel like there'suntapped opportunity and people
who want the quality and theflavor without all the other

(07:36):
things, uh, want it quickly andat a accessible price.
So yeah, it's so interesting.
Thanks for highlighting that andit, this is a friend of yours as
well that's doing this.

Joachim (07:45):
it was Mattias Mattias sipping full name.
Here we go.
But yeah, he's, uh, he is, um,based in London.
he is also, you know, this is aslight tangent, but coffee
culture in London came fromAustralia and New Zealand.
So third wave coffee came fromthose people.
So everyone was educated in, in,in the UK Aussies and Kiwis,

(08:06):
were bringing their flat whitesand all of that stuff.
So the UK has a lot of thoseinfluences.
then of course, those peoplewill be traveling across Europe
and then, so a lap is trying tobring that wave of coffee at a
low price point.
So when

Ernest (08:19):
I see,

Joachim (08:20):
their coffee SNBs, I think a lot of the people are
like coming from Melbourne andbringing that culture to, to the
low price point.
So,

Ernest (08:26):
huh?

Joachim (08:26):
uh, a little bit different than the third wave in
America and the states,

Ernest (08:30):
Right.

Joachim (08:31):
I.
snobbery is kind of the same.

Ernest (08:36):
Oh, that's a great follow-up.
Um, I have less of a follow-upand more of a, what I guess
would be a pre-up, which is thatI'm going to be presenting at
Creative Mornings in Portland,Oregon on Friday, December 12th.
I actually hadn't ever heard ofCreative Mornings until my
friend and fellow co-founder at37 Signals Jason Fried, uh,
referred me to them.

(08:57):
I've since come to learn thatthe group was started in New
York back in 2008 by Tina RothEisenberg, and I'm quoting their

site now (09:04):
It was created out of a desire for an ongoing
accessible event for New York'screative community.

The concept was simple: breakfast and a short talk one (09:11):
undefined
Friday morning, a month.
Every event would be free ofcharge and open to anyone.
Uh, well, the great thing isthat Creative Mornings has been
going strong ever since then andhas now expanded out to over 250
cities around the world,including Portland.
And the talks are still all freeand all still open to anyone.

(09:33):
as I understand it, for a givenmonth, every Creative Mornings
presenter is given the sametheme.
For example, the theme for thismonth, November is growth,
whereas the theme for Decemberwhen I'll be presenting is
innovation.
the details from my talk won'tbe posted to the Creative
Mornings website until afterthis month's presentation in a
couple of weeks, but we'llinclude a direct link in the

(09:55):
show notes to the CreativeMornings Portland page for
anyone in town who might beinterested in joining on
December 12th.
It'd be great to meet up withlisteners after the event, so
please do say hello afterwardsif you're there.
Alright, now let's jump back toour main topic for this episode,
which is our interview withParisa Tashakori and Jeff
Gillette, the co-directors ofThe Brand Studios at the

(10:17):
University of Colorado Boulder.
Parisa and Jeff, thanks so muchfor joining us on Learn, Make,
Learn.

Jeff (10:22):
Yeah.
Thanks for having us.

Parisa (10:24):
Thanks for having us, yeah.
I'm so excited for thisconversatio n.

Ernest (10:28):
Um, how about we start with some quick introductions
and you know, since we have youboth here, rather than having us
introduce you, uh, I thinkyou'll probably both do a much
better job of it yourselvesParisa, how about we start with
you?
Can you tell us about yourselfand your background,
particularly in the context ofthis new program?

Parisa (10:46):
Yes, for sure.
I'm originally from Iran andmoved to US in 2017, and I have
been a visual designer andworked on two most prestigious
advertising agency when I was inIran, like in VI and like Jar
Bagg and, um.
And then I opened my, studiothat I focused more on, like

(11:10):
cultural and social events andprojects, uh, from 2008 to two
2016 before I moved to the us.
And, my connection to thisprogram started from 2019 when I
met the former director, DavidSladen, and he invited me to

(11:32):
teach visual design and branddesign classes.
And then on 2022, he asked me tobecome like the associate
director.
And later, when it was the timefor him to be retired, he asked
me to take the directorship ofthe program in 2023.

(11:54):
And, um, like from like thehistorical part of the, the
program during last 13 yearstill this year, it was the fo
the main focus was actually likeuser brand design

Ernest (12:11):
Hmm.

Jeff (12:14):
Yeah.
and I've been in the ad businessfor a real long time, about 20
ish years.
Started out, at Crispin PorterBogusky way back in 2000, oh
man, 2004 ish.
And then went from there toGoogle where I helped, uh, start
the Google Creative Lab, whichis a super fun time, very early

(12:34):
days of that, program.
And then, uh, went to we Kennedyfor, for about six years where I
met you, Ernest.
And we got to work on Coca-Colaand a bunch of other fun stuff.
And then from there I bouncedover to, to Goodby Silverstein,
and then back over to, um,Colorado, where I've been an
executive creative for, for awhile.
And then.

(12:56):
Two, three years ago, um, gotbit by the teaching bug, started
teaching on the side, and then,I, I met Parisa and the, the
team over at CU.
Loved the team, loved theatmosphere, loved the, the
moment in time in which we're inand where, where I think
education can really have a hugeimpact.

(13:16):
So, um, I took the full,full-time pledge, became a
professor about two years ago,and, um, then I worked with
Parisa and our chair of thedepartment and a few others to,
to help figure out ways that wecould bring, especially creative
advertising to a higher level.
And we've redesigned theundergraduate program and now we

(13:37):
are adding to Parisa's, UX UIdesign program and establishing
a creative advertising trackalongside of it.
And in doing that, we're, we'rekind of recreating, uh, a new
umbrella program for, for whatit's become.

Ernest (13:52):
You know, it's interesting, Parisa and Jeff,
you've actually had the inverseof, um, Joachim's journey.
He was in academia and thenmoved over into industry.
how has that been for you bothmaking that move from the agency
side for both of you and theninto academia?

Parisa (14:10):
actually I was always connected to.
Uh, academia, when I finished mylike, um, master degree, uh, the
former, program director of ouruniversity, he asked me to teach
one course for packaging design.
And from that time I just taughtlike classes every single

(14:33):
semester.
I taught just one class when Iwas in Iran.
I also had the opportunity toteach internationally for
different workshops in countrieslike, Mexico, Peru, Bolivia,
France, and different countriesto work with, like international
students.
But being, uh, like a full-time,uh, professor, it's, it's a

(14:57):
little bit different becauseit's like a more than full-time
job because it's a lot of workand, um.
I mean, I was a 80% designer,20% academia.
Now I think I switched thatratio but I, I still do practice
design, visual design and alsolike artistic part of that

(15:21):
design, um, that I really likeit to bring like real examples
and the engagement to mystudents at CU.

Ernest (15:31):
Jeff, you were nodding pretty vigorously when Parisa
was talking about the workload.

Jeff (15:36):
Yeah.
Especially the, it's more than ahundred percent job, right?
I mean, I think, um, everyteacher everywhere probably
identifies with that.
And I came to teaching verylate.
I was in the industry for areally long time.
I got my master's at VCU BrandCenter and saw what those
professors were doing and wassuper impressed.
And they definitely changed thecourse of my career, but I

(15:57):
didn't really teach a classuntil probably about four or
five years ago.
And, um, once I did, Iunderstood why teachers do what
they do.
Like it, it's an amazing momentwhen you can break through and a
student learns something for thefirst time that they didn't know
was out there, didn't, havequite a grasp of before, you

(16:18):
know, you get a chance to, openthem up to it.
So as soon as I started, I waskind of hooked.
And then, yeah, when thefull-time opportunity came up, I
jumped fully in.
And like Parisa said, it is anall consuming, career in a great
way.
Like it's, it's amazing and, um,the students will blossom if you

(16:39):
give them the time, but oftenthat means being available,
right, all the time outside ofclasses.

Parisa (16:46):
Honestly, I, I thought, uh, maybe University is less
work, less intense because I wastired of just being awake
sometimes until like, uh,midnight and then even like 1am,
2am.
But aren't we still doing that?

Jeff (17:04):
Yeah, no, it's true.
Yeah, I mean, I think the hoursare, are definitely different.
Like, I, I can switch it off onthe weekends and obviously
during summer weekend to certaindegrees, go away, travel and not
have the burden of like, oh,that next deadline right, right
on top of you.
But, um, it's still in yourthoughts all the time, every

(17:26):
day, right.
Just like, just like during thecareer.

Ernest (17:30):
Joachim, does this make you feel nostalgic at all for
your teaching days?

Joachim (17:34):
The workload thing is a good point.
You're not necessarily at atyour or there's some messages
and everyone needs you torespond to it, but you are
turning things over in your headall the time.
And you're always stumbling onanother way of presenting
something or thinking aboutsomething., As you were saying,
Jeff, it's, it's thisopportunity to, that you don't

(17:57):
get very often, which is moldand shape and beyond that that a
safe environment for ideas,right.
And that's, that responsibilityis pretty So that, I think that
weighs why you guys are stillthinking there's real people the
end of this

Ernest (18:12):
Hmm

Joachim (18:12):
they are in a very, hmm, a sensitive situ position
where they're still in thatlearning mode, which means that
they're very vulnerable becausethey're trying to open up their
minds to things, and you want tocreate the right environment.
And you know, if you say thewrong thing in this moment

Ernest (18:27):
Hmm.

Joachim (18:27):
like, oh, that wasn't very good.
You'd be like, oh no.
You know, this could be thephrase that blows everything up
in their head and they'll neverlike go.
So I that, that and I've miss

Jeff (18:42):
It's so true, the word responsibility, like you do feel
it in the classroom.
Like every time you go in you'relike, okay, I need to be at my
best or I'm not making itworthwhile for, for this group
of students.
And it is, it's not like you gointo a boardroom and you're
like, okay, we have to be on andsell this campaign to, to this
professional.
Yeah, that, that has, you know,um, consequences as well.

(19:04):
But these are people's lives ata, at a moment, which really
matters to them.
So that's, that's prettyexciting.

Ernest (19:12):
Now I, um, shared a very level overview of your new The
Brand Studios program in theintro, i'd love to give you both
an to discuss in greater detail.
First, what is it also why didyou create it?
And, you know, feel free eitherof you to jump in.

Jeff (19:34):
I can start.
Um, what is it?
It's, um, when I reduce it downto its simplest, I like to call
it a graduate school for humancreativity.
Right?
And I think obviously that's anidea that's been shaped in the
last little bit because of AIand everything that's going on.
But what we wanna do is investin, in young people's creative

(19:54):
spirits and their creativepoints of view and in their
self-expression.
And we wanna take on studentswho, who really have a very
clear idea of what they want todo, what they wanna create.
And we wanna bring them intowhat, um, you were describing
before, like the safe atmospherewhere they can experiment and
really find out what their voiceis.

(20:16):
And, and, you know, along theway, learn the tools and the
tricks and the things that we'velearned with, whether it's
design, user experience,creative advertising, we wanna
impart on them what we'velearned, but we also wanna
realize that the, the world ischanging and it's changing fast.
And we're not here to tell them,here's the method, here's the
formula, here's how it works.

(20:36):
We're really here to let'em knowthat, the way it's gonna work is
for them to channel what'sinside of them in order to bring
that to the industry.

Ernest (20:46):
I was curious Parisa is the is there a change on the
design side of the program?
Or is that, kind of, stayingconsistent?

Parisa (20:53):
Actually no, it's, it's, it has changed a lot because we
review the curriculum.
Uh, actually we review thatevery three years in the past,
but maybe now considering thechanges in industry, maybe we
should review the curriculumevery year.
But we actually did it lastyear, so our curriculum is very

(21:16):
updated.
And, uh, we always just puttogether a team, a committee
that they are all teaching forus and also, um, some people out
of the program, to just reviewour curriculum to see if they
are really like, make sense, uh,with that changes in the
industry, especially on userexperience design, the tech

(21:39):
system and UI/UX and alsobranding design.
And, we also, uh, intentionallywant to keep this program small
and focus on finding the rightfit.
Um, that they feel good andproductive about our program
because we really don't want toincrease just numbers because we

(22:03):
really value the money of thestudents, their energy, their
time.
Higher education is veryexpensive, I understand that.
Uh, we really don't want wastetheir money and their time.

Jeff (22:20):
I would say that's, that's a great point.
We, we do wanna keep this smalland, you know, there are a lot
of other programs out there and,and each one has great merits,
um, and is a great fit fordifferent kinds of students.
Ours is a one year master'sprogram, which means it's highly
accelerated, highly intense.
We have 39 credits, just likemost other master's programs, if

(22:40):
not maybe a little bit more thanother programs, which means our
students are taking a lot ofclasses, all at the same time.
And the, the, the speed is partof the curriculum, but also it's
pretty intense and, and it's notfor everyone.
But for, for the right studentand the right fit, it can,
again, do what, my masters didfor me, which was change the,

(23:01):
the trajectory of, of my career.

Joachim (23:03):
I was just gonna ask, what does this look like?
I'm a student, I show up on daywhat is exploration phase and
then a narrowing, like how areyou thinking about that student

(23:25):
journey for that one year?

Parisa (23:27):
That's a great question actually.
Uh, because the origin of ourprogram, coming from like D
school in Stanford, so ourapplicants, they don't need to
have a like related degree ontheir undergrad, for example,
having design background oradvertising background, as we

(23:47):
believe design and creativedisciplines, they are team-based
career where collaboration isthe key for that.
However, their statement, theirportfolio that they submit for
our program should showcase, astrong passion for creativity
and design.
And also showing that they havedone some, because I know many

(24:10):
business school students, andalso like, you know, marketing
computer science students, they,um, have minor in like design or
like advertising or marketing.
They, they, they can be a reallygood fit for our program because
they.
They don't bring just theircreative side on the table.

(24:34):
They also can bring, like thebusiness perspective and also
like the, um, like for, for mytrack, like user experience,
having a creative technologystudents or like a computer
science can be a really valuablething.

Jeff (24:50):
Yeah.
And to add, uh, add to thatmaybe, uh, a little bit of some
of the structure in our, our,um, our three semesters are
outlined on our website, butessentially semester one, day
one, you're introduced to a lotof the fundamentals, right?
To Parisa's point, noteverybody's coming from the same
place.
Not everybody has had abackground in advertising or
design.

(25:11):
So we introduced'em to thefundamentals of branding, the
fundamentals of design, thefundamentals of copywriting and
writing and conceptual thinking.
Um, and then they build on thatfrom there, you know, they're
off and running.
Um, those folks who do come inwith some background in those.
Those fundamental classes,they're still able to self
guide, create design work in thedesign classes, create work in

(25:33):
the conceptual classes, and thenwhen they get into semesters two
and three, it's all aboutmaking, making every day, making
all day, sharing the work,critiquing each other, because
the skills that they're gonnacome outta here with are skills
of collaboration, ofcommunication, of creativity.
These are the things thatthey're only gonna learn by
doing.
So they're, they're doing allthe, all the time from the, from

(25:55):
the very beginning.
But there is that first semesterof letting them get their feet
on the ground, letting themunderstand all the fundamentals,
and then, um, taking themthrough the rest.
And I mean, Parisa can talk tothis even, even better than I
can, but the, the instructorsthat we hire and that we put in
in these classes are, areexperts in their field and also

(26:16):
are really attuned to thesedifferent students' needs.
And they can kind of feel wherethe class is and where
individuals in the classes are,so they can give more guidance
to the ones who are new, um,they can let the ones who maybe
have a bit more experience kindof go off on their own and, and
give them the light touch that,that they need.

Ernest (26:35):
Jeff you had shared link to article on adage from
today--just for context, we'rerecording this in early
November--that gave a reallygood overview of the program and
there was one segment inparticular that I was really
struck by.
It was a quote um from ChuckPorter, the legendary co-founder
of Crispin Porter Bogusky.
So, quoting that piece, ChuckPorter co-founder and chairman

(26:56):
of CPB said what was mostappealing to him about the
University Colorado's programand why he has since agreed to
be a board member is theprogram's length.
Masters programs don't need tobe two years, he said.
That's just custom andtradition.
CU Boulder's program is muchmore designed to create work
rather than listen to lectures,Porter said.

(27:18):
Gillette's vision for this ismuch more tuned to what's going
to be useful when you get intothe real world, unquote.
and you know First, as AdAgenotes, Porter's on the board for
your program which I think isamazing the caliber of people
you've been able to attract toyour board is phenomenal, and we
can talk more about that in justa minute.
But um you also touched on thatpoint of the duration of your

(27:39):
program.
You know Porter reallyemphasizes here the fact that
it's one year versus two, aswell as your focus on applied
learning, seem to be things thatreally do set program apart.
Is that fair to say?

Jeff (27:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think the, the lengthof the program is one of the
biggest things that, that, um,that makes us different.
It's, uh, from, from myknowledge, there aren't that
many one year master's in thecountry, but there are even
fewer when, when you talk aboutdesign and creative advertising,
that focus being in one year is,is very unique.

(28:13):
And, and it's, it's interestingthat it's unique because our
businesses go fast.
Like just by nature it's a fastmoving business and you're
constantly spinning a lot ofplates.
You're constantly working to thenext deadline.
And one of the biggest things aswe were talking to professionals
when we were, were designingthis program is that, um.

(28:33):
The number one reason they saythey aren't hiring juniors is
because it slows them down.
So junior talent causes them tohave to take their eye off of
the pitch, off of the deadline,off of whatever it is they're
doing to go and train and mentorthese, these young people.
They know they need them, theyknow they need that fresh
perspective, but they're movingso fast that if those, those

(28:57):
young junior talents can't keepup, they just don't even bother
bringing them into the building.
And that's the the one thing Ithink we in the education world
absolutely have to fix.
We have to get the studentsready to literally hit the
ground running alongside thismoving train.
And the only way I think we cando that is by making them move
as fast as the industry.

(29:18):
Oh, sorry.
One other thing I should say.
Like that, that quote Chuck isamazing.
He, he, he and the whole boardthat we're putting together are
great.
I think he mentioned Gillette'svision and I would say that it's
Gillette's and Parisa's vision,along with a lot of the other
folks that we've been working,uh, with to build this thing.
So I I do not wanna take fullcredit for that at all.

Ernest (29:39):
is it correct that everyone on your faculty is
still in industry as well?

Jeff (29:45):
Yes.

Parisa (29:46):
Definitely, I can talk about that, that, um, because
the program started in, I thinkin the, Crispin Porter Bogusky,
uh, as a kind of professional...
like, um, you know, even it inthat time it was not
certificate.
It was like, um, a program forprofessionals that they wanted

(30:08):
to jump into the, the digital,design.
So, um, after that, when the CUowned the program and developed,
the program as a degree, so itwas already carries the same,
uh, nature that the program hadbefore.
So all of our teachers, uh,coming from industry, from tech

(30:31):
companies, local agencies, um,couple of like startup in
Boulder, Denver.
So we intentionally want to keepthe program professionals
because these students likecoming to our program to develop
a portfolio to get a job afterthat.

(30:51):
And, um, I, also bring anotherquote from a creative, person,
Aaron Poe, that I, um, saw hispresentation in Brand New
Conference that I was last weekin, um, Pittsburgh.
He said, what I am telling youtoday, it doesn't work tomorrow,
maybe.
You know...

Jeff (31:11):
right.

Parisa (31:11):
I mean everything is so fast.
And, uh, because of that, these,um, faculty, they update
themselves every day in theirjob, in their challenges that
they have.
So they can bring like freshperspective, the recent
technology, the, the recentmentorship to offer to our

(31:33):
students.
Also our alumni are a greatasset for us because they, uh,
continue working with ourstudents, hiring our students.
We have a Slack channel for allof our, BDW alumni, and also
their recent graduates of the,the program that they all work

(31:54):
together to hire some of the newgraduates or intern, like
facilitate an internship forthem.
So it's a great, uh, communitythat, um, we have at our Studio.

Jeff (32:09):
And I would just add to that, that, um, in addition to
finding instructors and adjunctswho are from the professional
world who have many, many yearsof experience doing this, we
also do vet them for how muchthey do care about the
educational system andeducational process.
And a lot of them have mastersthe way that that Parisa and I

(32:31):
do, right.
I think that's another thingthat maybe distinguishes us
from, a lot of, portfolioschools.
And not that there's anythingwrong with that, that, but often
they, they tap somebody in theindustry who, that who's
available and who can teachthese classes.
And what we look for is a verystringent requirement.
Master's if at all possible, butwe also, if, if we can't find

(32:51):
somebody with a master's degree,we, we vet them to make sure
that they have that academicspirit.
Because at the end of the day,we're a university, we're
attached to university.
We care very much about academicrigor and, and the liberal arts
education side of thingsalongside of the professional
skills.

Ernest (33:08):
Something that Joachim and I have talked in past is
actually the extent to which,um, there is an aspect of
academia these days whereProfessors really don't have
much time for their students

Jeff (33:22):
Mm-hmm.

Ernest (33:23):
that are really are so much focused on research, it's
great to hear that big point ofemphasis for you.

Jeff (33:28):
Ooh, we should come back and have that conversation
because that.
I'm sure Parisa and I would loveto about that.

Ernest (33:35):
Oh, I think could all geek out Yeah On that with
Joachim as well

Jeff (33:39):
No, I mean, everybody's so busy these days, right?
I mean, it's, it's, you know,we're all spinning a a thousand
plates and, you know, um, I knowI'm guilty of it.
There are some times when, like,I could have spent more time
with students after class, but Ihave to rush to a meeting, have
to rush to whatever it is thatwe're doing.
Um, but I think at the end ofthe day, most of the people, at

(34:00):
least at CU that I've run intoin our department and on this,
uh, on this team, um, put thestudents first and put the
education that we're here toprovide as the number one
priority.

Joachim (34:12):
I guess the size.
Now it now it all makes sense.
Your, statement, Parisa, at thebeginning of small class sizes.
It's not about gigantic lecturerooms.

Jeff (34:21):
right?

Joachim (34:21):
is only possible because you're, you're
restricting yourself in that wayand having, and then giving the
students that coverage that theyneed.
And that's why you can then askthem to push themselves because
they're all in the room togetherYou can give them the time.

Jeff (34:35):
A hundred A hundred percent.

Parisa (34:37):
Yes, that's exactly, uh, what we want to have.
This program is very studentdriven program.
And, uh, we even, um, our studiothat they are off campus, they
are in downtown Boulder, and wewanted to give them kind of
like, um, real world experienceto our students.

(34:59):
And these two, um, studios areavailable from 6:00 AM to 10:00
PM for our students.
Even during weekend, they canmeet their clients, their
faculties or their um, peers towork together.
And, um, they honestly, whenthey leave the program, most of
them, they say that, oh, we gota job in this agency, or like at

(35:24):
Uber, or like Google and workingin these companies are easier
than working with the studios atCU because we intentionally
wanted to make studentscomfortable by being
uncomfortable.
To experience the, like,challenges working together,

(35:46):
sometimes taking the leadershiprole and other time taking, um,
like art directorship or likedesigner or even UX researcher.
You know, each time they willhave the opportunity to work
with different team on adifferent role, which is, uh,
great.
We also value, uh, diversity inour program a lot.

(36:10):
Um, our learners coming fromvarious parts of the US and also
around the world, uh,representing different cultures,
different age even, uh, youknow, uh, that, um, they can
work with each other and, um,like take this program as an
opportunity, as a playground fortheir future.

Ernest (36:33):
Yeah think that's a great segue.
You know we've talked about thewhat the why of the program and
I opportunity to talk about ofon the student cause I curious
you did you you developed theprogram you know or maybe
another way of thinking about itis who think could benefit from

(36:55):
enrollment in the brand studios?

Jeff (36:58):
I, well, I think we're open, right?
I think we're open to anyone whowants to, um, continue their
education and creativity.
Uh, I think we see a lot rightnow of, um, either folks who've
been out of the undergraduate,uh, degree for a number of
years, maybe one to two, havehad some work experience and

(37:18):
then have come back.
Um, we've had some folks comestraight from undergraduate into
this program, and I think weanticipate both of those things.
And, and in addition to that,maybe a smaller minority are
folks who are mid-career who,who have decided that they want
to completely change careers.
They've maybe gone to a placewhere they feel like they've,

(37:38):
um, gone far enough, or maybethey've just decided that what
they want is somethingcompletely different outta their
career.
So, sometimes we'll get peoplewith what, 10 years of
experience, who, who come backand, and want to, um, reengage
in academia.
So we don't necessarily want toput any kind of controls or

(38:00):
rules around it.
But, um, maybe that gives yousort of a sense of at least the,
the three main kinds of studentswe see.

Parisa (38:09):
also, uh, sometimes, uh, we have some students that they
have a business already, andthey want to develop that in a
upper level, in another level.
Or they want to, uh, carry theirown business in the future.
They want to have, like, work ontheir startup, you know.

(38:30):
They definitely, most of thetime fail on first startup,
maybe sometimes on the next,like the second startup.
But we had some examples thatthey now they are like business
owner, entrepreneurs and they,they just brought whatever they
learned in from our program totheir real life.

(38:53):
Um, also this program, we, um,always recommend not having a
full-time job when they come tothis program because it's really
intense.
Uh, and they feel a lot ofstress as I mentioned before.
Um, and also like sometimes wehave athlete students that they
have a very, a amazingbackground in creative, um,

(39:18):
field.
They can come to our program,um, but again, it's not possible
to have a full-time job or full,full-time, like athletic, like,
job to come to this program.

Ernest (39:31):
Right

Jeff (39:33):
That goes back to that speed and the intensity of the
program.
Yeah.
It wouldn't, it wouldn't suitthe students well.
They wouldn't be set up forsuccess if they also felt they
could have a full-time job.
Even a part-time job is kind ofpushing it, to be honest.
Um, if they could dedicatethemselves for this one full
year, I think that sets them upfor success the best.

(39:55):
And back to Parisa's note onentrepreneurialism, like that is
a big part of the program.
It's a big part of how itstarted as Boulder Digital
Works, it's a big part of howit's evolved, and I think it's
really kind of the DNA ofBoulder sort of seeping into
what it is.
And, you know, there's a ton ofstartups here.
There's a constant stream ofentrepreneurs.

(40:15):
There's um, there's a, we'remaking, um, bridges with the
entrepreneurial, uh, team at cu,which also has launched a, a, a
really large number of startups.
So that's a big part of this.
You know, not everybody whograduates this program will
become a UX designer or a branddesigner or a, a copywriter, art
director, you know.
A lot of them will just betaking the skillset and

(40:39):
launching their next new thingor becoming an entrepreneur in
whatever brand, uh, or company,they, they find themselves and
reinventing themselves, which ishonestly probably The key skill
you need to learn right now whenwe're moving into a moment in
time where nobody really knowswhat's gonna happen, right, in
the next five years.

(41:00):
But if you can be anentrepreneur, if you can be,
somebody who can adapt and solveproblems creatively, I think
you're gonna be ahead of almosteveryone else.

Ernest (41:09):
Parisa, you had also mentioned um a minute ago
diversity and I was excited tosee that in that AdAge piece I
referenced they quoted anothermember of your board, Jason
Pierce, the CEO uh andco-founder of um Inc Management.
And I'll I'll just referencethat article once again here.
So, quote, what the new ofcolorado is its effort recruit

(41:34):
diverse talent it recruit fromunderrepresented communities and
cities such as Detroit andBaltimore where this talent
lives program will also setgraduates up mentors working in
the industry give them criticalguidance as they enter unquote.
So I that seemed really I wasexcited to see that mean it big

(41:55):
need terms diversity in theindustry but then also idea that
you're gonna the relationshipdoesn't end on graduation day it
seems right That you're gonnaconnect folks with mentors and
they'll stick with you kind ofbeyond that classes.

Parisa (42:10):
Yes.
Yes.
I, I learned a lot, um, when Istarted my job at this program.
You know, I, I think I, I growat the same time that I helped
other students to grow.
I feel always, I keep myself asa students also because I
really, um, appreciate thehigher education, you know?

(42:34):
And, um, I, maybe, maybe I cango back to your first question.
How I became like the full-timeeducator in 2017 when I moved to
US, I had like more time to readand especially like transfer all
of my knowledge to English.
You know, just, just find the,the correct term for each thing

(42:59):
that I knew.
So I read a book I'm Malala, youknow, and I found out how
important is like, um, educatepeople.
You know, education sometimesfeels very mundane and just like
part of our everyday life, butit, like many people, they don't

(43:19):
have access to education even onbasic education.
And, um, when people, uh, gothrough that journey, like
different doors will be open infront of them.
And, um, later, uh, when Ibecame the director of this
program, I should equip myselfwith the leadership role.

(43:41):
And I read another, um, book,Decolonizing Design, uh, from
Dory Tunstall that she was the,uh, I think OCAD head of the
design.
So in this book, uh, she'stalking about challenging, um,
the dominant Western way ofthinking about design.

(44:01):
And it's basically says that,uh, the traditional design has
often ignored or harmed,non-Western cultures.
And, um, the book.
Offers like practical way anddifferent, uh, you know, pathway
to make design more inclusive ofall like people's culture

(44:23):
practices and make someopportunities for people, uh,
that, um, they were like minorsin most of their life.
So, uh, because of that, we, wereally want to keep the faculty,
the program, the community, verydiverse.

Ernest (44:42):
Hmm

Jeff (44:44):
Yeah.
And um, I, I think Parisamentioned this before, but the
alumni network of, of theprogram is, is a big key part of
that, right?
The students who come in andhave been a part of this want to
mentor the next generation.
So that mentorship program kindof takes care of itself.
Although I think we will we'llput, uh, a lot of effort into
making sure people are connectedwith, um, the right sort of

(45:09):
mental twin.
Sorry, my dog is just coming andsuddenly, um, distracted me.

Parisa (45:17):
Jeff.
It shows

Jeff (45:19):
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Sure.
Just, uh, crazy dog coming in,being um, being her crazy self.
Um, where was I?
Mentorship, yeah, I think thatis gonna be a key part of, and
it has been a key part of theprogram and you know, we

(45:40):
luckily, because we're part of auniversity, have the luxury to
not have to operate like abusiness, right?
We're not here to take on asmany students as we can to make
as much money as we can.
We're here to educate in our ownway.
Um.
And the best way we know how.
And part of that is not onlybringing in diverse sets of

(46:00):
thinkers to work together sothat they make each other
better, but it's to not justsort of let them leave and, and,
you know, say good luck to you.
Right.
It's to, it's to be there withthem and to help connect them
to, to, to folks that can steertheir career, not just in the
year or two after, but hopefullythroughout.

Ernest (46:22):
my impression is that it's a very human program

Jeff (46:25):
Yes.

Ernest (46:26):
It's not dry, sitting in classrooms Kind of like uh Chuck
Porter was saying it it soundsvery human

Jeff (46:33):
And it's, it's one of the reasons why we're always in
person.
There are no online versions ofthe program.
It's, um, it's why we are inthat studio that's off campus in
downtown Boulder so that we canestablish our own little
community that feels like itsown little agency or design
firm.

Parisa (46:50):
and this program is just a, um, problem solving based
program.
You know, and students will havea lot of, like real cases study
also from, or faculty or fromlike the community business
owner of Boulder that they cometo our program with a challenge,

(47:10):
with a kind of problem sometimesthat problem is digital or like,
I mean, they can use theirdigital aspects or it, that
problem can be, uh, solve, uh,physically, you know, uh,
students work with them indifferent teams to find some
possibilities for as a solution,you know.

(47:33):
And um, um, as Jeff mentioned,like this program, uh, is very,
like, we try to bring studentsto the center.
So sometimes they come to us,uh, with a sometimes problem
with another students, or withfaculty, or with

Jeff (47:51):
It's very human Program, Yeah.
Like you

Parisa (47:54):
we say, okay, this is your challenge.
Now what is your solution?
How we can fix it together?
You know, because it, it canhappen in the future with your
coworker in,

Jeff (48:08):
all the.

Ernest (48:12):
That's great so much a part of what you're learning Is
is are those

Jeff (48:16):
It's It's, the soft skills, you know, and, and, and
we talk about that a little bitin the article.
It's, it's, it's really thething that these students need
to learn now more than ever.
Partly because these arestudents who've come through the
pandemic and have had part ofthat education robbed of them
along the way.
Part of it is because we'regoing into a, a, a new age of,

(48:39):
of AI and, and tech tools and,you know, I think what makes
them human is gonna be.
What makes them valuable, andwe're here to kind of help draw
a lot of that outta them, right?
The, the, the human soft skillsof collaborating, of learning
how to deal with other humans,of, of speaking their mind and

(49:00):
being respectful of, of others',uh, point of view.
And, um, you know, in additionto all the soft skills that go
into the everyday professionalworld, um, listening, uh,
communicating, all, all ofthose.
So it is, it is, I love how youput that, Ernest.
It is a very human program

Ernest (49:18):
that's awesome Um actually both of you talked
about the challenges related tothe pace of change days And just
mentioned AI and you clearlythat's a topic on lots people's
minds generative And was reallyto see have Michael uh Tabtabai

Jeff (49:43):
up to buy.
Yep.

Ernest (49:45):
uh open AI's VP Global Creative for your tap into that
expertise seems phenomenal Butum you know I've heard a lot of
young people Okay Expressconcerns know related to
generative ai aboutappropriation of their work
about of their work or even justlike the existential threat to

(50:06):
the future availability anydesigner advertising due to
these new tools I think aboutthose sorts of things Do you
think they're these concerns arewarranted

Jeff (50:19):
Well, I mean, yeah, I think we're all feeling, you
know, anxious about how doesthis pan out in the end.
Right.
And I think, you know, I, Italked to one of the creative
directors at, at, at Google, um,a while back when we were
looking at designing thisprogram.
And, uh, you know, I'm.

(50:39):
do you think is this gonna bevaluable for students in the
future?
Because he does a lot of workwith Gemini and their AI tools
and he's like, you know, ifthere, if there was one thing I
was gonna bet on in the future,it would be creativity.
He's like, I don't, as great asthese tools are, I think you
still need to be there to askthe questions.
You still need to have a curiousmind.
You still need to creativelyknow how to problem solve.

(51:02):
And these tools actually canhelp benefit creative thinkers,
maybe most of all, because it'llallow you to explore those
creative think thinking andthose creative ideas and chase
them down more fully than youwould've been able to before
and, and a lot more of them.
So I think it's not really aneither or, hopefully it's an

(51:24):
and, you know, and I, I think.
We talked about having an AIclass in one, in our curriculum
that's just specific to thetools, and we thought, well, no,
it's, it's gonna be woven, woventhroughout.
It's gonna be something thatthese students take from day one
in the first class and usethroughout all of their classes.
And they need to learn how tobecome a true collaborator with

(51:46):
ai.
And it needs to be, you know,there by their side.
And they need to treat it like apartner.
And, um, I think the people who,who can do that and can get the
most out of AI and, and also candraw the most out of their own
human selves, are gonna findthat perfect balance of how we
can help each other.

Ernest (52:05):
And and it connect to prea about outside of say
traditional design backgroundstools will enable folks to tap
into creative abilities eventhough maybe they didn't
necessarily have a designbackground

Parisa (52:22):
Sure.
I, I mean, we should tryeverything ourself, you know?
Uh, we should play, play,experiment, iterate, fail, and
learn from our failure.
You know?
And sometimes I learn a lot frommy students.
I, I, I should confess thatbecause they are.
Like, uh, the new generation,they're faster than us, but we

(52:45):
try to bring like experience andalso like facilitate a great,
um, space for them toexperiment, you know?
So, um, we also, um, always tryto make it better next time that
we try a new things, you know,and, um, I mean, absolutely it's

(53:09):
very vague for all of us thathow how will be happen, uh, what
will be happen in the future,not just for the new generation,
that they feel a lot of stressin that area also for us as a
millennia or like, you know,their parents, you know.
But, um, hasn't the design worldalways been full of ambiguity?

(53:33):
I think human always haddifferent kind of challenge from
like hunter era to agricultural,to urbanism, you know, and I
mean, every time human has achallenge and is just creating a
stuff for, for something thatthere is no exist, you know?

(53:56):
So we are always like, play as afuturist, you know, in, in the
creative area, in the like,innovation, phase.
And, um, I don't think be afraidof that.
We should just make ourselfequipped and armed with, um,

(54:17):
learning that as, as soon aspossible because as legendary,
John Maeda, computer science andeducator says always that
embrace AI as, as a copilot andleverage it to focus on, you
know, uniquely human task.
Because at the end we arerunning that tools and it it, it

(54:40):
should be a

Ernest (54:45):
Hmm

Joachim (54:45):
that's a

Parisa (54:52):
talks about

Joachim (55:23):
Centaurs, want cent, want the augmentation in

Parisa (55:26):
in the right direction.
Right.
It's, it's a tool that helpthings out.
Yes.
And actually as a designer, andsometimes as an activist, as
people says about me, I try tobring those thoughts to my
classes.
If AI can't help any of us onthis planet access fair
resources to like live better,healthier, safer air without

(55:50):
war, like, um, so it, if itdoesn't work, don't use that.
I mean, use it for good things.
And it should not be limited tojust the few people on the
planet to develop.
Um, like the things that theyare not good for humanity and
also for like.

(56:11):
Other creatures in this sport.
I, I, again, I'm learning a lotbecause I developed a course
like three years ago that it waslike a branding design, a brand
design for sustainable future.
So I'm learning a lot, um, howwe can be a good human to

Jeff (56:35):
Like create an image of that reverse centaur because I
wanna see what that looks like.

Joachim (56:43):
Well, okay.
So thank you so much.
Is there anything that you wantto give us as last words that
either words of totalinspiration

Ernest (56:52):
Yeah

Joachim (56:52):
focused around the mean, we we're leaving it up to
you to have the last word onthis,

Jeff (56:57):
the one thing that comes to mind for me is Ernest, you
mentioned, you know, what is thewhat and the why of the program,
and I think we touched on bothmaybe more the what than the
why, because I think.
So, at least for me, one of thewhys is that the industry really
needs fresh thinking right now,right?
Like, especially with all the AItools and especially with
everybody who has access to theexact same tools, we're starting

(57:20):
to see the exact same thing.
Um, and the same answers, youknow, almost in that peanut
butter effect just kind ofsmeared across, uh, the toast.
And I think one of the things wehope for with this program is to
find really interesting, uniquethinkers, set them up for
success, train them up.
So not that not only can theysucceed in this business, but

(57:43):
they can go and lead it and, andoffer their fresh, unique points
of view so that this thingdoesn't get stale.
Um,'cause I, I think we allthink it easily can, and without
those, those weirdos out thererunning around doing their weird
thing, like it, it's just, it'sboring.

Ernest (58:01):
And back to the point you made earlier, Parisa, as
well about diversity.
You need these diverseviewpoints and just like you
were talking about in thecontext of ai these new tools
need to be accessible to thesefolks as well

Parisa (58:14):
Oh, for sure.
I think sometimes we will see alot of like, um, common things,
the same visual, you know, um,identity, brand identity because
everybody is using AI or thesame typefaces that they are
trend, you know.
So the, the new generation, theyneed to make them more different

(58:37):
from other people.
Because of that we say weirdoswelcome because sometimes our
like relatives, our families,they think that we are weird, So
we, we are welcoming all thesecreative people.
But that differentiation shouldbe genuine.
It can't be happen overnight.

(58:58):
It's all part of the humanexperience over the time.
And we aim to provide a spacefor genuine differentiation, not
just superficial, you know,things.
Uh, it's like sometimes some,some new cities or town they
want to create, like downtown.
You know, I don't think the newdowntown makes sense for anyone.

(59:25):
Uh, you know, because we needthat history.
We need people, we needcommunity, we need like
activities, you know?
Um, all of these stuff can make,genuine differentiation.

Ernest (59:41):
Well I I think that all sounds so fantastic I kind of
wish that I could sign up forthe program myself.
But, on that, where shouldpeople go if they wanna learn
more about the program or ifthey wanna apply?

Jeff (59:54):
That's a great question.
It's, um, the, the URL isColorado dot edu slash the brand
studios.
Um, or if somebody just wants toGoogle"The Brand Studios," we
should be the one that pops up.
Um, and yeah, all of theinformation is on there, uh, in
fact, Parisa and my, ourpersonal emails are on there so
they can contact the directorsdirectly and we can answer any

(01:00:15):
questions they have.
That's another benefit ofkeeping this small, is that, um,
we can be a personal connectionfor them.

Joachim (01:00:23):
And do you guys have any other online presences that
you'd wanna direct people to, tolearn more about personally,
like other spots that you'reactive on online?

Parisa (01:00:32):
Yes.
They can find me on myInstagram, LinkedIn, uh, with my
name, Parisa dot Tashakori.
Uh, and yeah, we are veryapproachable.
We try to, to just connect with,we are not the kind of people
that they never answer theiremail! No.

(01:00:53):
We, we, uh, we value students,we value our learners and
sometimes try to even.
Uh, meet them through Zoom to,to see if they are good
applicant for us or we are goodprogram for them, you know?
Um, because again, we don't wantto waste energy and money of the

(01:01:15):
people.
We just want to bring the peoplewith purpose and also with some
intention for change somethingon their society and their
community.

Jeff (01:01:27):
Exactly.
It's about fit, you know, at theend of the day.
So that's why we're trying tomake ourselves available and why
we've, um, spent a lot of timetrying to put as much on this
website, uh, as possible so theycan get a sense of who we are.
And, um, we'd love anybody who'sinterested to apply and we'll
get a sense of who they are.

Ernest (01:01:46):
That's fantastic Thanks so much once again Parisa and
Jeff for joining us today.
But don't leave just yet,because Parisa and Jeff are
going to join us for ourrecommendation segment.
Just for background on this forParisa and Jeff, every episode,
Joachim and I uh end with arecommendation.
Initially, we had imagined thisas an opportunity to highlight a

(01:02:08):
product that we wereparticularly excited about or
particularly disappointed by, aswell.
But, in practice, we've ended upusing this mostly as an
opportunity to highlight reallythat's uh lit a spark in us,
whether it's books films musicand occasionally products.
So with that context, uh howabout we start you Parisa?
Is there a product, service,piece media, design that you'd

(01:02:31):
like to praise pan for ourlisteners?

Parisa (01:02:34):
Sure.
Um, I can talk a little aboutlike, um, because the core of
our program is based oncollaboration and I, not just
the program, also the industry,the creative field is based on
collaboration.
So, um, I, the book that I wantto introduce you, um, is not a

(01:02:56):
design book even.
It's a, um, book by, uh,choreographer, uh, American
dancer and choreographer, TwylaTharp.
And uh, the book isCollaborative Habit and she
talks about how collaborationshould be a habit in our daily
life as it is the recognitionthat there is more life,

(01:03:21):
opportunities, knowledge anddangers than we can handle
alone.
But when we are together, we cancarry more things, be more
strong, powerful and do biggerthings.

Ernest (01:03:37):
That definitely connects to lots of things we talked well
I Jeff, do you have one?
Or we can let...
We can let Joachim go.

Jeff (01:03:46):
Yeah, no, I, I can scare one up.
I, I didn't do my homework, so Idon't have anything super deep
for you.
Um, there, there are a couplebooks that are on my nightstand,
and they're pretty silly.
one is, um, the Art ofWhittling.
So during the pandemic, I reallygot into whittling.
In fact, I think I have someknives and and wood here on my,

(01:04:07):
on my table.
it is.
I think for, for a creativemind, especially one who likes
to like, um, fidget a lot, it,it's been, uh, fantastic to, to
be able to be on these kind ofzooms and to be able to have
something going in thebackground.
And I actually have been able tocarve my son a complete chess

(01:04:27):
set, which shows you how oftenI'm on these Zoom calls, or at
least I used to be.
Um, so that's interesting and,and not something I ever
imagined I would take up, but,uh, that's, that's what a
pandemic does, right?
It introduces you to, to brandnew things.
The other thing I will say ismaybe slightly more serious.
I'm, I'm, I'm late to this book,but Atomic Habits, I, I just

(01:04:48):
started reading and I do thinkit's fantastic.
It's, um, a small, simpleconcept, but I think, um.
I think we would all be betteroff if we do think, not just
about the goals we wannaachieve, but the life we wanna
live and on, on a day-to-daybasis, really just live, live
that.
And the goals, uh, kind ofhappen along the way.

(01:05:11):
Right.
Um, the achievements.
So yeah.
I'll leave it there.

Ernest (01:05:15):
I love the unplanned You both picked books related to
habits You guys are on the samewavelength.

Jeff (01:05:22):
Always.

Ernest (01:05:25):
How about you Joachim?
Do you have a recommendationtoday?

Joachim (01:05:29):
So because of last time, and you did it again this
time Ernest, I'm calling youout.
You said product recommendationsvery often, so I've been working
to figure out productrecommendations.
But I um, I have two that aremusic related.
The first one, uh, something Ibought.
was a total, it totallyunnecessary purchase, but it's a

(01:05:51):
little tabletop guitar amplifierby boss called the Katana

Ernest (01:05:55):
Air.

Joachim (01:05:57):
Um, I dunno how to describe it.
It's like a little practice ampwith Bluetooth connectivity and,
um, a little wireless transpo,uh, transmitter.
you can just grab thetransmitter, plug it into your
guitar and walk around thehouse, which

Ernest (01:06:14):
Oh

Joachim (01:06:14):
do.
I annoy my wife and I annoy mychildren this way.
Um, the other thing that's beenreally interesting as a, as a
practicing tool is up, yourphone via Bluetooth.
And then you can pipe music inthrough the same speaker mix
your guitar on top of it.
So you, know, and YouTube isfull of famous songs with the

(01:06:37):
guitar parts taken out

Ernest (01:06:38):
right

Joachim (01:06:39):
backing tracks with with no guitar.
it's, kind of different to hearyour guitar playing and the
backing track coming from thesame speaker.
You feel a a little bit morelike you're with the band.

Ernest (01:06:50):
Yeah

Joachim (01:06:51):
so I was kind of on the fence of whether I I wanted this
device, but I, I think I will.
So it is a guitar amplifier withall the usual stuff.
It's by Boss.
if you know anything aboutmusical instruments, boss make
have been making some of thebest guitar pedals and equipment
forever.
Um, and yeah, I mean the specsare just, this interest to

(01:07:11):
guitarists, but there's plentyof amp simulators.
You can control it with yourphone.
It's completely solid so itdoesn't have any analog pieces
of equipment there, which to mewas always a no-no.
But for this.
It's actually, it sounds reallygood.
Sounds

Ernest (01:07:24):
Huh

Joachim (01:07:26):
Um, so that wa that was my first one very Um, and then
the other thing was, um, I wasjust browsing my favorite blog
called Create Digital Music.
Um, and they like to featurehardware and software, um, to

(01:07:46):
make electronic music and so on,but they also are, have been in
recent months really trying toin way more diverse sounds from,
you know, other countries andmusic coming from other
countries.
So actually when Parisa, youwere talking about diversity and
all these things, I wasthinking, Yeah, it is,
everything feels veryhomogeneous now to us'cause
we're out in the west, butthere's so much stuff out there.

(01:08:08):
So, um, a couple of weeks ago,um, this blog, CDM, highlighted
Swag Lee, who just released anew kind of hip hop.
Record called Habibi Loops.
He's based out of Egypt.
Um, so I, I used to live inEgypt, uh, growing up, and so
the loops and things that he'sdrawing from are the same sounds

(01:08:28):
I would hear when I would belike driving around or walking
around it's just this backgroundsound and he's just mixed it
with this, these great hip hopbeats.
Um, so it's bang up to date andit's a beautiful hybrid of
everything, which is to me waymore interesting than, you know,
it's like, take the bits thatyou like and create your own
sound from that.
So I will add the link to that.

(01:08:50):
Um, it is not streamable onSpotify, you can only buy it on
Bandcamp, which was also, thatalso made me feel good because
it was very much like directartist support and all those
things.
So yeah, Habibi Loops, it'sactually volume two.
He is done this before, by SwagLee, but he has a, he has
another name, I think it's, oh,I forgot

Ernest (01:09:13):
Oh that's great I can't wait to to listen Um I actually
uh uh unfortunately I do have anon-product I have a book as
well

Joachim (01:09:21):
Yes,

Ernest (01:09:21):
Uh

Joachim (01:09:22):
ratio up.

Ernest (01:09:27):
my apologies uh and it's something that's probably not
gonna be new to many people butit's the book Hamnet, by Maggie
O'Farrell.
I actually hadn't heard of it UhI only learned of it when I saw
the trailer for the upcomingmovie version of it Uh the film
is uh directed by Chloe Zhao,stars Jessie Buckley and Paul

(01:09:48):
Mescal and it's gonna be hittingtheaters in the US at the end of
this month, November 27th.
Um and it looked really strikingto me at the trailer and I
mentioned it to my sister andshe said oh you have to read the
book Uh and I said oh I didn'tknow it was a book And uh so I
did read it and it wasincredible It was uh so so uh it

(01:10:12):
just paints such a rich pictureof life Um so just to give you a
very very very loose overviewit's a work of speculative
historical fiction It um isloosely based on the life of
William Shakespeare and his wifeAnne or Agnes um depending on
which history you read And theytheir kids one of whom was named

(01:10:35):
Hamnet And it's noted at thevery beginning it it like a two
sentence prologue of the bookthat at the time late 15
hundreds early 16 hundredsapparently the names Hamnet and
Hamlet were equivalent It's kindof like John and Jack So um the
child was named Hamlet and thenit imagines the events that led

(01:10:57):
to Shakespeare writing Hamlet Uhso it's it's fictionalized but
based on these real figures youknow obviously Shakespeare was a
real figure his wife and hisfamily as well Um and I I just
found it to be deeply moving.
A lot of people I've seendescribe it as being very sad
and there's certainly sadness init but I definitely didn't come

(01:11:20):
away feeling sad after havingread it I just felt really like
my soul was filled up Uh so Ijust uh definitely wanted to
recommend that I I would it Ithink it would probably be worth
reading the book before seeingfilm have still a to go Um good
thing is I heard that the filmis different from book which um

(01:11:40):
I think is great the most ofeach medium I don't gonna feel
super I based on how is likemight more if first and then
you've already read Hamlet andyou're oh what can I read next I
just wanted to connect it backto the book Lavinia by Ursula K

(01:12:00):
LeGuin that I recommended in ourvery first episode.
Um both are works of speculativehistorical fiction built around
vital works of literature.
In the case of Lavinia, LeGuinbuilt this world around Virgil's
Aeneid.
And then in the case of Hamnet,uh, O'Farrell builds this world
around Hamlet.
And I, came away from both booksfeeling very similar things So I

(01:12:24):
think if you liked Hamnet reallyenjoy vice versa You, um, the.
Last thing here, the reason Iwanted to mention Lavinia and
LeGuin is that, there's anexhibit on Ursula K LeGuin
opening at Oregon Contemporary,in Portland.
Uh, it actually just opened onHalloween, and it's gonna be
running through February 8th ofnext year.

(01:12:45):
So I just wanted to referencethat.
It's called a Larger Reality, Urand it's curated by, her son
Theo Downes-LeGuin.
and it, it sounds like it's bereally interesting, of different
types of media contributionsfrom, um, other artists as well.
So, include a link to that, uh,in the show notes too.
So, um, that's my recommendationfor week.

Parisa (01:13:07):
Ernest, I think, uh, no need for, apologize for
suggesting sad or dark movie orbooks because most of the
masterpieces

Ernest (01:13:21):
Right.
Being

Jeff (01:13:22):
I mean, Hamlet.

Ernest (01:13:25):
Oh, that's great.
Well, I think that does it forus.
Uh, Parisa and Jeff, thank youso much once again for joining
us on Learn, make, learn, andhelping our listeners understand
how they can put their weird towork.
I,

Parisa (01:13:37):
Thank

Jeff (01:13:39):
and hopefully we were weird enough for you.

Ernest (01:13:44):
Yeah, same for us.
Hopefully we weren't too boringfor you guys., and to our
listeners, thank you for joiningus here at Learn Make Learn and
as always, we want to hear fromyou.
Do you have thoughts on anythingwe d discussed or recommended
today, or maybe there's aproduct or service you think we
should talk about.

(01:14:04):
Whether it's a request, aquestion, or an observation,
please do share your thoughtswith us at Learn Make
learn@gmail.com.
Or on threads Learn, make, allone word.
Thanks for listening, and wehope you'll join us for the next
Learn, Make, Learn.

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