Starbucks Follow-Up with Zoran Svetlicic

Episode Transcript
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Ernest (00:04):
hello and welcome to Learn Make Learn where we share
qualitative and quantitativeperspectives on products to help
you make better.
My name is Ernest Kim and I'mjoined by my friend and co-host
Joachim Groeger.
Hey, Joachim, how's it going?

Joachim (00:18):
I am very tired.
It was a very long week.
I'm recovering.
We'll see how this week goes.
I'm already, I'm alreadydreading it.
But anyway, how about youErnest?

Ernest (00:30):
actually I'm pretty tired as well.
I, uh, stayed up way too lateprepping for this episode, but,
um, I'm charged up because...
this is episode 30 and it'sprobably the closest thing we'll
ever have to an emergency pod.
Uh, which is something I'vealways wanted to say: This is
Ernest and Joachim coming at youwith an emergency pod.

(00:52):
You know, I don't think our areaof focus is ever gonna warrant
an actual emergency podcast,but, um, this, isn't an episode
that Joachim and I had plannedfor.
Instead, what sparked it isthat, uh, the day after we
published the most recentepisode titled Starbucks
Struggles and Lessons forProduct People, good friend and
former colleague of mine namedZoran Svetlicic wrote in with

(01:13):
some fantastic follow-upcommentary.
Now, Zoran is a true brand geekwith hands-on experience in the
food and beverage industry, andit was clear to me straight away
that the thoughts and questionshe posed in this email could
spark a great follow up episode.
Uh, now, is actually based inCroatia, which is longitudinally
speaking, quite literally theother side of the world from the

(01:36):
Pacific Northwest where Joachimand I are both based.
Remarkably, the planets havealigned and we were able to
schedule a conversation withZoran, which you'll hear in just
a minute.
But before we dive into ourStarbucks follow up with Zoran,
I wanted to emphasize that wewant to hear from you.
If you, like Zoran, havethoughts, questions, or concerns
you'd like to share, please sendthem our way at Learn make

(01:59):
learn@gmail.com or on threads atLearn, make, learn, show, all
one word.
And you know, who knows, wemight end up recording an
emergency episode with you aswell.
Um, now, uh, just one last bitof business before we get to our
interview, and that's follow upsspecifically.
Just two quick corrections, uh,from us.

(02:23):
Uh, Joachim and I both suggestedin our last episode that Naomi
Klein, who authored the book, noLogo amongst many other works,
was also responsible forAdbusters Magazine.
In fact, Adbusters was foundedby Kalle Lasn and Bill Schmalz
in 1989, a decade prior to thepublication of No Logo.

(02:44):
While Klein and the team behindAd Busters certainly shared a
lot of ideological commonground, she didn't start the
publication, uh, nor did shehave any direct affiliation with
it.
Second, uh, I incorrectlysuggested that Adrian Brody had
appeared in an alien predatorcrossover movie, terrible.

Joachim (03:03):
Shame on you Ernest.

Ernest (03:05):
In fact, Joachim was correct in his recollection that
it was actually a predatorspecific film, Predators, which
debuted in US cinemas in thesummer of 2010.
in that film, Brody plays acharacter named Royce, so
apologies for, for those twoerrors.

Joachim (03:21):
Also to, to make proper amends, I should say.
Predators isn't a bad movie aswell see everyone should go out,
supported on Hulu or whatever onsome streaming platform to make,
make up for this terrible errorso

Ernest (03:32):
I agree.
Yeah, yeah.
You could see, go watchPredators and then uh, you could
see this Badlands movie that'scoming up, uh, pretty soon as
well.

Joachim (03:42):
Actually before Predators
The same director did

Ernest (03:46):
Right.

Joachim (03:46):
Prey, which is a, a very focused predator movie.
Closer to the original Predatormovie.
It's very good.
It's very, very good set in theseventeen hundreds, Native
Americans are the primaryprotagonist in this.
I would recommend that.
I know we're not in therecommendations phase, but this,
this lends itself perfectly tothat moment.

(04:06):
Sorry.

Ernest (04:07):
No, that, that's a good one.
I agree.
Alright, now let's get to ourmain topic and welcome in Zoran
to Learn, make learn.
Zoran, welcome to the show.

Zoran (04:18):
Thanks guys.
Thanks a lot for having me and,uh, for letting me dial into a
show about Starbucks fromprobably one of the only
countries in Europe thatactually does not have Starbucks
in it.
And we've, we've resisted the,uh, invasion here in Croatia.

Joachim (04:33):
Wow.

Ernest (04:33):
I,

Joachim (04:33):
Is

Ernest (04:34):
yeah, I had no idea.

Zoran (04:36):
It is, it's sort of like one of those World War II maps,
you know, like they're at theborders, you know, like they're
in Hungary and I think Sloveniaand Italy and like we've, we've,
we were like holding the frontso far in terms of coffee
culture.
So let's see.
Let's see how long it lasts.

Joachim (04:49):
not a conscious thing.
Right.
It's just that they're notcapable able to get a foothold.
I'm so interested now.

Zoran (04:54):
I don't know.
I mean, I think, you know, if,if I'm probably honest, it's
probably, you know, a, a a tinymarket that's not, you know, on
the top of their agenda.
It's like, you know, 4 millionpeople or so.
But on the other hand, I thinkthey've opened up in Slovenia,
which is like half the size.
So, you know, there's, there's alot of tourism here too.
So I, I don't know.
I don't know.
There certainly is a very strongcoffee culture,

Joachim (05:14):
Yeah.

Zoran (05:16):
which maybe they, they, they take into account.
But look, they're in Italy, uh,you know, across the sea.
Uh,

Joachim (05:22):
a

Zoran (05:22):
they're in Austria.
Uh, so, so I don't know.
We're, we're still holdingstrong.

Ernest (05:28):
Uh, well, so that's something we'll dive into more
as well, that, uh, just kind ofcoffee culture and Starbucks.
But, um, in our intro Imentioned that you, Zoran, uh,
are a true brand geek and havehands-on experience in the food
and beverage industry.
To be specific, you've beenworking in advertising and brand
consulting for almost 30 yearsand also run a natural wine

(05:48):
distribution company inSingapore.
Uh, on, on top of all that, youalso write an influential
newsletter on sustainable food.
Could you share a little bitmore detail on your work in
these areas?

Zoran (06:00):
Sure, sure, sure.
Yeah, that's right.
So, uh, you know.
I am sort of a accidentalmarketer and brand person
because I originally studied andtrained in computer science, but
I, I was sort of led astray by,uh, a, a marketing professor,
uh, who I took an elective within, in, in undergrad, uh, that
maybe we can actually come backto later in the discussion.

(06:21):
So, you know, it's been a, uh,you know, the, the branding and
marketing stuff has been, youknow, super interesting, um, you
know, over the past few decades.
So from, you know, the U.S.
uh, to Europe, to Asia, uh, youget to kind of learn a lot
about, you know, a lot ofdifferent industries, lots of
different consumers, lots ofdifferent problems.
But I think a lot of time it'salso, you know, as, as, as I'm

(06:43):
sure you know from yourexperience in consulting it, it
can also feel a little bitabstract.
So, uh, a few years ago Istarted dabbling in food and
wine together with, uh, my wife.
It was of course, actually heridea as most good ideas in our
marriage and relationship are.
Um, and what has, you know, whatsort of started off as a hobby

(07:06):
has now become, uh, moreserious.
And we represent close to 30,uh, natural winemakers, um, in
Singapore.
Uh, and that's really opened upkinda a whole new world to us.
That's a sort of a verygrounded, literally very
grounded world.
Uh, that's, that's a beendifferent from kind of the
corporate, the corporate stuff.
Um, and, and I, I would also saythat probably over the years

(07:28):
I've put more than my fair shareof, of CO2 into the, into the
atmosphere.
So I am repenting for thosesins, um, with a newsletter
that's called Unstuck, uh, thatI write with, um, a former
client, uh, and super talent,super smart co-author and sort
of thinking partner this isJennifer Woollford.
So that's kind of broadly whatI'm up to these days.

Ernest (07:52):
something we've, I think both hinted at a little bit is
that our relationship goes wayback.

Zoran (07:58):
Yeah, I mean, I think it was probably when we were
opening up, uh, Organic Chicago.
I think you were recruited fromNew York and I came in from
Fallon in Minneapolis.
And um, I think that's, fromwhat I've remember when I, when
our paths crossed, it's probably98, something like this.

(08:18):
Yeah.
Really dating ourselves here.

Joachim (08:19):
What was the

Ernest (08:20):
yikes.

Joachim (08:21):
Chicago Organic.
Is that what you said?
Zoran?

Zoran (08:24):
Yeah.
We were, we were opening anoffice for a digital, I mean
actually probably the firstdigital agency, uh, in the
world.
That that was its claim to fame,uh, claim to have invented the
banner.
Um, so there you go.

Joachim (08:36):
it.

Zoran (08:37):
The banner ad?
Yes.
Uh, yeah.
I think they, they actuallyshared an office with Wired, uh,
in San Francisco, and that waslike one of the first websites,
and I think Volvo was the firstclient and they tried to figure
out how to charge them foradvertising.
So they kind of stuck on thislittle thing on top of the, on
top of the page.
And that was, that was thebanner.
And I think that format, I mean,I don't know if it still exists.

(08:59):
It's like, what is it, 468 by 72pixels or something like, like
that's, that maybe is stillaround right.
From like early nineties.
So anyway, so they, uh, theyrecruited a bunch of us from
kind of different agenciesaround the US to start their
Chicago office.
Uh, and I think that's, was,that was, yeah.

Ernest (09:20):
that's right.

Zoran (09:20):
that was when we, that's always when we, when we crossed
paths.
Yeah,

Ernest (09:23):
and you just reminded me that Starbucks was a client of
Organic.

Zoran (09:28):
That's right.
The, the third space.
Yeah.
That was one of the firstclients.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Ernest (09:32):
so this history, um, and Zoran's background is why I
thought this would be a greatconversation, but I also thought
Zoran and Joachim would getalong really well.
I think, uh, you guys share alot of interests.
Uh, one of the things that Zoranremarked on, um, in his follow
up email to me was, his sharedinterest in Prussian forestry
practices, uh, Alright, so inour previous episode titled

(09:57):
Starbucks Struggles and Lessonsfor Product People, Joachim and
I talked through what we saw asthe key whys behind the decline
of Starbucks in recent years.
And one thing we focused on wasthe parallel rise of local,
independent coffee shops thathave embraced the concept called
third wave coffee.
Now, there are lots ofdefinitions for what exactly

(10:17):
third wave coffee is, but I'dsay that in an overarching sense
it's rooted in viewing coffeeless as an industrial commodity
and more as an artisanal goodakin to wine.
And, like wine, third wavecoffee places, much greater
emphasis on where the coffeecomes from, how it's grown, how
it's harvested, um, to ensurethat the unique character of

(10:39):
that coffee is maximized.
Part and parcel to this is therecognition that coffee isn't
just coffee.
It can vary wildly from regionto region, farm to farm, year to
year.
And that's before it even getsto your local cafe where the way
the beans are roasted and brewedwill, you know, obviously
influence the way that thecoffee ultimately tastes.

(11:00):
Now with more and more peoplearound the world experiencing
the joys of third wave ofcoffee, Joachim and I surmised
that the things that had beenstrengths for Starbucks, its
scale and the kind of globalizedhomogeneity of its coffee and
in-store experiences, had becomeweaknesses.
Joachim, does that feel like afair synopsis of our
conversation last episode?

Joachim (11:21):
Yeah, I mean, since we alluded to Prussian forests, it,
it's the idea of monoculturethat, uh, an organization itself
should not be a monoculture that

Ernest (11:30):
Hmm.

Joachim (11:31):
does rinse and repeats the same thing.
Invades a country does the samething and expands, expands.
So yeah, this, this notion ofhomogeneity was kind of the
theme that we were picking up onin our, in our conversation.

Ernest (11:42):
Right.
now I, I thought it wasimportant to share that context
because, uh, Zoran actuallylistened to that episode.
Like I said to him, you are theone listening.
and then followed up with somereally great thoughts via email.
So, Zoran, what's your take onStarbucks Struggles?

Zoran (11:58):
Well, I think there is homogeneity, there's
heterogeneity, and then there isjust plain old bullshit.
And by the way, I've gottenofficial permission to swear on
the podcast.
So, uh,

Joachim (12:12):
that.

Zoran (12:12):
uh, yeah, so I think, I think if you take a look at
Starbucks from a brand lens, youcan kind of break it down into a
couple of pieces, may, maybethree kind of big pieces, right?
Like there's the, the kind ofthe brand positioning or the
kind of the, the idea, the coreidea that, uh, that they say is
kind of behind the brand.
There's the, the brandarchitecture, so kind of the
relationship between thedifferent bits, and then there's

(12:33):
some of the, the brandpartnerships that they do.
And, and maybe we can go intokind of each, each, each one of
those quickly.
So I think if you just startwith the brand positioning, uh,
which is we nurture thelimitless possibilities of human
connection.
Let, lemme repeat that word fromword, from their press release:
We nurture the limitlesspossibilities of human

(12:56):
connection.
It's like, no, you don't, yousell buckets of milk with burnt,
like over roasted coffee inthem.
Like, you know, again, like I, Ijust dare you to find a single
real human being who wakes up inthe morning and asks themselves,
where should I go to nurture thelimitless possibilities of human
connection today.
Like that is just removed fromreality.

(13:19):
Uh, and kind of what I, youknow, what, what, what this
brand offers and what theexperiences and what the, what,
what, what the, you know, what,what the product is.
So I think if you want, uh, amore detailed and much more.
How should I put it?
Colorful analysis of why thispositioning is complete
nonsense.
You should check out a column bythis guy called Mark Ritson, who

(13:41):
was actually the undergradprofessor that got me into
marketing all those years ago.
Uh, and, and we'll try and sticka, a, a link into the show notes
for that.
But the, the kind of, the shortversion of the argument I think
is that Howard Schultz, the, thekind of the, the, the CEO and
founder or kind of one of theearly guys got so rich in the,
in the process and expansion ofStarbucks, that that, that he

(14:03):
just sort of really drifted awayfrom reality.
Uh, and I think started thinkingabout not customers and kind of
product and experience andbrand, but more about, you know,
his legacy.
Uh, and I think once you kind ofunmoor your brand from that,
that kind of connection and thatthat reality to that sort of
just customer reality, I thinkyou are.

(14:24):
Your team starts sort ofdrifting off into the random,
contradictory, non-coherentdirections that I think you've,
you've already described in the,in, in the previous, you know,
episode with the, you know, thethird space and the, you know,
the online ordering and the, youknow, the optimization, all, all
of that stuff.
So I think that's number one.
This, this kind of ridiculouspositioning.

(14:45):
Right.
And maybe that's the obviousone.
I think the second bit I.

Joachim (14:48):
uh, sorry, uh, Zoran, that's quite a, that feels like
a, big point that you just made,which is the success of the
founder.
The CEO creates, you know,we've, people throw these
phrases around realitydistortion field, or you get
untethered and unmoored.
It's very difficult at thatpoint when you're the top of

(15:10):
this gigantic, multi-billiondollar operation, to have any
meaningful signal anymorebecause everyone's just trying
to feed you something that makesyou feel good as opposed to
anchoring you in the reality ofwhat the business is.
And then you start going offinto a, the, the nether.
It feels like, it feels general,it feels like a lot of people.
We could name other CEOs thatare kind of heading into those

(15:31):
spaces, I feel like, but yeah.

Zoran (15:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or, or, or presidents or primeministers or, yes.
You know, like it's, I think itextends beyond, beyond corporate
world.
Uh, uh, so yeah, but I, I, Ithink it's a, you know, it's,
it's, it's not a, it's not aunique phenomenon or, or kind of
case.
And so I think, I think it's,there's a pattern in that.
Um,

Joachim (15:51):
Yeah.

Zoran (15:52):
and it could probably be a whole nother discussion in
terms of how you kind of keepthat grounding.
But, but I think just, again,from a brand perspective, the
second thing I, I, I point to onStarbucks is the, uh, is, is, is
the brand architecture.
And, and this, you know, I guessmaybe I'll, I'll sort of start a
little bit tangentially and kindof, kind of bring it back to, to
the, to, to the Starbucks thing.

(16:12):
But about 10 years ago or so, Iwas working on a, on launching,
uh, a brand of instant coffeeinto China.
So it's kind of a market entryproject.
And, uh, so very much sort of, Iwould say not even second wave
coffee, probably first wavecoffee, right?
Like, uh, you know, kind of, youknow, powdered instant stuff.
Uh, but the client also happenedto own a cafe in Shanghai.

(16:37):
And, you know, we were meeting,chatting about stuff, talking
about the project, and you know,we went in and he asked me kind
of what I wanna drink, and I waslike, oh, you know, I'll have a
latte or flat wine, or whateverit was.
And, and he said, okay, you can,but let me, let me sort of give
you something to try and I betyou once you try it, you will
never go back to this kind of,you know, weak, milky stuff.

(16:59):
And I was like, okay, yeah,whatever, you know, like, fine,
like, you know, try me.
Uh, and, and they, and you know,he got the, the, the barista guy
to make, you know, for, for meit was the first time I, I, I
tried, a V 60, like a pour overcoffee, you know, like kind of a
well crafted, like perfectlymeasured whatever, 15 grams of

(17:20):
water at 93 degrees to a, youknow, gram of like all of that
kind of geeky coffee stuff.
And I tried that and I was like,oh my God, you're right.
Like this is, this is amazing.
Like, I think that was the firsttime I tasted sort of, you know,
clarity and the personality andsomething non-generic in a
coffee and, and, and it sort ofreally, he was right.

(17:43):
Never went back and, you know,sort of started getting the gear
and kind of all geeking out andall that stuff.
So, and I, and I think, youknow, this was sort of China
Shanghai 10 years ago.
I mean, it probably hit, I don'tknow, London 10 years before
that.
Right.
Or US kind of even before.
Right.
And, and I think Starbucks hadtotally missed this third wave

(18:05):
of coffee.
For a very, very, very longtime.
And I think they sort of finallywoke up to it.
I, I don't know exactly whenObserve do the research, but,
uh, when they started doing thekind of the Reserve,

Ernest (18:18):
Right.

Zoran (18:18):
um, uh, sort of sub-brand or, or, or outlets, but at that
point I think it was just toolittle, too late.
And I, I remember, I rememberdistinctly going into, uh, a
sort of a Starbucks that had aReserve in, in Seoul, uh, which
by the way is the number onecity in terms of Starbucks
outlets in the world, right?
The Starbucks so is bigger thanNew York and London or anywhere

(18:39):
in the US and the Reserve Bar,it sort of looked interesting,
but the Reserve Bar was kind ofone side of the store and, you
know, the regular Starbucks onthe other side, and the Reserve
side was empty.
And I was just kinda likelooking around like, what's
this?
What's this?
And then, uh, what ended uphappening is that the guy from
kind of the re the barista fromthe regular side of Starbucks
eventually walked over and, youknow, sort of pulled, pushed a

(19:00):
few buttons and kind of made thespecial Reserve coffee and just
the, the kind of, the wholeillusion of this being kind of a
different, you know, morepremium, more thoughtful, more
crafted experience wascompletely shattered, right?
Because it was the same guy thatpushes the button on the
espresso machine, on the regularStarbucks side that's doing the
same, you know, that, that,that, that's doing the same,

(19:21):
relatively the same ritual,maybe with slightly better
coffee on the, on, on, on, onthe Reserve side.
And I think, I think it was justvery, very poorly thought
through in terms of just that,that that relationship, like
what was it supposed to do?
Was it supposed to sort ofupgrade and kind of provide a
halo and elevate the wholeStarbucks experience?
Was it supposed to be its ownthing?
Uh, just that I think thatrelationship was unclear.

(19:42):
And I think maybe the two sortof equities were quite
incompatible.
Uh, uh, and you can, you canmaybe see a different approach.
That's, I, I, I don't knowthese, but maybe it works better
in the, in the sort of theNestle acquisition of Blue
Bottle, right?
So they bought it pretty muchleft it alone, right?
Like you don't mix Nescafe andblue bottle, right?
Those are two different worlds.

(20:03):
So different occasions, twodifferent needs, two different
mentalities to, so, so thatthere's that, that brand
architecture piece.
And I think for me, maybe thethird one, which just really
ruined Starbucks for me, was,was sort of their, uh, sort of
brand partnership strategy,right?
And I think, uh, this was, uh,this was sort of a, a decision

(20:24):
they made sort of also roughlyaround the same time where they
literally got, got into bed withthe devil, and by the devil, I
mean Nestle and Pepsi, right?
Uh, uh, they signed, uh, a, adeal with Nestle in, in 2018, I
think, where they paid them 7billion plus for the rights to

(20:45):
sell Starbucks branded coffeeoutside of their cafes.
Right?
So just, just, you know, uh, uh,sort of, you know, think about
that, right?
Like basically they've allowedthe maker of instant, like the
most basic, uh, least, leastthoughtful, least crafted coffee

(21:07):
in the world.
Nescafe to take their brand,strip it of any kind of service,
any kind of, you know,environment, any kind of third
space stuff that they've basedtheir brand on and stick it into
a supermarket.
Right?
And then, you know, you, you,you buy it on, you're left of
your own devices, but themermaid's still there.

(21:29):
It still says Starbucks, right?
And you have a completelydifferent experience.
And I think, and I, and just tokind of add insult to injury, I
think a couple years later they,they sort of partnered with
Pepsi as far as I understand tomake, uh, ready to drink
beverages.
So again, Starbucks.
Yeah, Starbucks brand.
Pepsi makes it.
You can get a can of Frappuccinoor whatever it is in your, in
your 7-Eleven, like, how doesthat make you feel about, you

(21:51):
know, this, this kind of thirdspace, you know, special, you
know, special crafted brandthat, that, you know, that,
that, that, that they talkabout.
So, so, so for me, you know, inaddition to all the kind of
customer experience kindaproduct issues that you guys
talked about, I think there'sthese, these kind of three brand
decisions.
So this kind of very unclear,amorphous positioning, this kind

(22:13):
of very confused response tothird wave coffee.
And then these, these, you know,financially very lucrative, you
know, short term partnershipdecisions.
But I think in the longer run,very, very sort of brand
dilutive, um, that, that, that,that are maybe part of the, uh,

(22:33):
the story and the issues that,that they have now.

Joachim (22:36):
Yeah, it's interesting, your last point.
Um, so I've been strugglinggenerally when I'm thinking
about some of the consultingwork that I do on the side or
in, in everyday corporate jobs.
It's very difficult to getpeople thinking about the long

(22:56):
run.
But it certainly feels likebrands are intuitively
understood to be long lasting,long lived entities.
it feels like you, the brandconsultant or someone operating
in your space has the power toget people thinking about that
long run it's something aboutthis, the reputation and the

(23:18):
brand reputation and identitythat allows people to think
about the long run.
Because as you said, do I wantthe mermaid to be in the
7-Eleven, that sounds veryunromantic, but if you see only
number and number go up, veryeasy to detach it from the
actual customer experience thatcomes in, which comes back to
the earlier point.
You're not actually imaginingwhat it'll be like as a customer

(23:39):
going into a 7-Eleven, someonewho likes Starbucks, and then
they just kind of see these cansof Pepsi made Starbucks drinks
in the 7-Eleven.
It might tarnish yourrelationship with that brand in
a way that is, you know, wouldtake a long time to repair
again.
Brands feel like the ideallightning rod for those

(24:00):
conversations.
Like, do you want this thing tobe stripped of what made it
special in the first place?
Sign on a dotted line.
You can do that.
You'll get the money up front.
Great for the shareholder forthat quarter or two, but in a
year people will think of you asjust trash in some sense.

Zoran (24:16):
Yeah, I mean, it's not easy to say no to 7 billion
either, right?
So, I mean, you know, you can,you can, you, you, you know, you
uh, it's difficult to argue withjust kind of, you know, fluffy,
sort of mermaid stuff against 7billion, right?
So I think, so there's, there,there, there's a, you know, I

(24:36):
think, I think there's a, uh,you know, there's sort of a, a
business case or, you know,business driven way to kind of
think through some of this brandstuff that can, uh, kind of with
the right, uh, you know, sort ofright analysis and right
thoughtfulness, uh, maybe help,help people make, make better,
better decisions.
But you're, you're, you'reabsolutely right.

(24:57):
I mean, it is, it is about thelong term.
Just think of something likePanAm that hasn't been in
business since probably, I don'tknow, eighties, nineties, but we
probably still have likeassociate, it probably still
lives in people's heads.
Right.
And you know, some guy bought itto sell t-shirts, right?
Like it still has equity.
So, so, you know, it it, itdoes, it does, it does endure.

Ernest (25:18):
I was interested in the Reserve point that you made.
Um, you know, you talked aboutBlue Bottle and Nestle, and I
think that approach that they'vetaken where they're very hands
off makes a ton of sense,particularly for Nestle, in that
they've always been a companythat's approached, that's had a
more portfolio brands approachStarbucks, which is more of a

(25:40):
one brand architecture.
And so, you know, I could seethe rationale there to say, oh,
we, yes, we missed the thirdwave coffee—we were late to it.
So how do we try to, uh, tapinto it?
Well, we'll create this sort ofhalo sub-brand within our
overarching Starbucks, you know,brand, rather than creating this

(26:03):
offshoot.
But what's, what I was kind ofsurprised by in the recent moves
was that Starbucks actuallyclosed their two Reserve
locations in Seattle as part ofthe overarching store closures
in the US.
Uh, I think a lot of people weresurprised at by that because
those locations were quitepopular.
They did, they did really well.

(26:23):
They were kind of seen astourist attractions um, I was
just curious to hear yourthoughts on that.
I mean, I, I have some thoughtsas well as to why they might
have done that, but I was,curious, do you just see that as
them maybe recognizing that thisis sort of a lost cause at this
point for them?

Zoran (26:40):
I mean, I, look, look, I, I, I don't know the numbers and
kind of the, uh, yeah, the, thebusiness case behind it, but I
think, um, you, you, you haveto, you have to make these brand
architecture decisions in thecontext of kind of category and
customer needs.
And I think if you make a kindof this, this kind of Starbucks

(27:03):
kind of Starbucks plus Starbucksplus plus type of model, but it
has to fit with how peopleactually consume your product
and, and sort of interact withyour category.
So I think that kind of brandarchitecture model, I mean, you
tend to see it a lot in, in, youknow, categories like financial
services for example, right?
So you have, you have kind ofwhat they call a, a wealth
escalator, right?

(27:23):
So you start with regular Citiaccount and you get Citi Plus
then, you know, once you have, Idon't know, 250 K, you get Citi
Gold.
Once you make your firstmillion, you get Citi, you know,
Citi Gold private client.
Then once you, you know, kind of10 million plus, then you're,
then you're a Citi private bank,right?
And there's that, that kind ofjourney over time.
And maybe there's somethingaspirational that kind of pulls

(27:44):
you up that escalator, right?
With, with coffee or kind offood or fast moving consumer
goods.
I'm not sure that's.
Right.
I mean, I, I don't know.
There, there might be, there,there might be sort of different
occasions where you might want,you know, your pumpkin spice
latte for Halloween, and thenyou might want your, I don't

(28:04):
know, whatever, you know,natural geisha, you know, V60
from small, some small lot guy,whatever.
But you kind of, you kind ofbounce around, right?
Like, there's not that kind ofnatural progression over, over
time.
And I think maybe, maybe kind ofa, a kind of house of brands or
multi-brand brand architecturecan kind of help target those

(28:25):
needs more effectively, which ismaybe why you see it, you know,
you see it in, you know,Unilever, P&G, Nestle, those
guys, right?
Like they have 10 differentdetergents, but they kind of
target different occasions.
It's not like detergent basicplus, plus plus.
Do you know?
You know what I mean?
So, so I, I, I, I don't know, I,I don't know if they, they've
thought through that.
I think, I think for me, justthe, the whole reserve thing

(28:47):
within Starbucks was just a...
Just a big fail from that, fromthat just kind of initial
experience, but also maybe itsort of, it never made me feel
better about Starbucks.
It also made me feel worse aboutit.
I sort of feel like, oh, okay,and then like, there's this
temple that you've built, butactually what's, what's
accessible to me on a day-to-daybasis is kind of Starbucks

(29:09):
minus, do you know what I mean?
Like, not a, not not a Starbucksplus.
So, uh, maybe the, in theirdrive into, into to kind of
simplification, they've realizedthat they need to, you know, if
they're gonna kind of move theneedle in the business, maybe
they, they, they need to kind ofreally fix the core brand.
And this, this kind of reservestuff is maybe a, a, a

(29:29):
distraction.
And they're focused that efforton, on that core, which is,
which is maybe the right, theright thing to do.

Ernest (29:36):
Yeah, that, that's been my take as well.
I kind of feel like they've, um,to the credit of the new CEO,
Brian Niccol maybe recognizedthat as a brand, they, they
aren't a third wave coffeeprovider—that's just not their
position.
That's not what their customersreally are looking for.
Um, and I, I, my supposition isthat the closing of those

(29:58):
Reserve locations is sort of atacit acknowledgement of that.

Zoran (30:02):
Could be.
Could very well be.
Yeah.

Joachim (30:04):
Do, do we think that they could have done something
akin to, or if this is still apossibility, and we've talked

about this Ernest (30:11):
Nike's skateboard brand had a similar
failure right at the beginningthey just kind of took their big
sneaker playbook, slapped itonto the skateboard and said,
look, this is a skateboardsneaker now, now you buy it.
And it was very cynical.
It was very clear that they'retrying to cash in on, uh, the

(30:31):
uptick in interest inskateboarding.
And then it took Sandy bodeckerto basically reset things and
try and approach, I mean, veryvisibly.
That's still Nike.
But doing it in a, that's a verycheesy thing to say, very
grassroots way, focusing on theindependent skate shops and then
building from that, the culturearound that.
Do, do, do we think somethinglike that could be done on a, a

(30:52):
skunk works type project forwith the Starbucks machinery
behind it, but not in an obviousway?
Or is that kind of, did theReserve thing just tarnish any
other way of doing stuff?

Ernest (31:01):
Yep.
Yeah, personally, I, I don'tknow if it would work.
I think, um, to Zoran's point,I, I feel like the, this kind of
food and beverage space is alittle bit different in that as
a consumer, it's a continuum.
And you know, like you mentionedZoran, you kind of jump in and
out at different spots andyou're not necessarily looking

(31:23):
for one brand to deliver on allthose different sorts of
experiences.
yeah, I think it'd be morechallenging for Starbucks to, to
use that sort of, uh, approach.

Joachim (31:35):
Hmm.

Ernest (31:36):
least I can't think of a way that that would work for
them, that wouldn't end up justbeing a distraction that, you
know,

Joachim (31:41):
Yeah.

Ernest (31:42):
the Reserve, uh, approach has been.

Joachim (31:44):
Yeah.
about you?
What do you think?

Zoran (31:47):
I mean, may, may, maybe not with the Starbucks brand,
right?
Like, I mean, they could do a,they could do a Toyota Lexus
type of situation and you know,maybe just go after it, go after
in a different, in a, in adifferent format.
But, but maybe not, maybe not,uh, close to the core.

Joachim (32:01):
yeah.
The Lexus one's interesting'cause the Hyundai is trying to
replicate that model with theGenesis brand, we all know it's
Hyundai and we all know thatthis potentially is an arbitrage
opportunity to, to get a highquality car that's at, at the
spec of a Lexus, but priced waylower because this brand is
trying to bootstrap itself andget itself up there.

(32:23):
But it sounds like the coreideas now, there's Starbucks
focus on that then if you dowant to try something and try
and tap into somethingdifferent, it would be sub
sub-brand.
Separate it, separate it out,and it's just becomes a, a
separate stream of activity, butpotential with distraction of.
Taking you away from what youneed to do day to day.

Ernest (32:45):
one thing that, um, I mentioned earlier that Joachim
and I really focused on in ourconversation last week was
monoculture, or really this, um,move away from monoculture, as
you know, with, with third wavecoffee it's the antithesis of
that.
It's all about celebratinguniqueness of specific, um,
growers and specific beans, andspecific ways of brewing.

(33:09):
And something you mentionedZoran kind of, um, I felt like
connected with that.
You, you, you had mentioned whenyou, uh, emailed me that you
were in Rome, um, on holidayand, uh, that.
For one thing you mentioned thatuh, the Starbucks you
encountered seemed to berelatively empty, the ones in
the historic center.
Um, but that, uh, what wasbooming in Rome was McDonald's

(33:33):
you kind of highlighted them asan example of, of company that
to have managed to deliver onscaled heterogeneity.
And I think listeners in the USwhere McDonald's restaurants are
very, very uniform, willprobably be surprised to hear
that.
So I was curious, can you talkmore about what you saw
McDonald's doing right in Rome,um, in particular and just sort

(33:56):
of overseas in general?

Zoran (33:58):
Okay, so this is like a very awkward position you're
putting me into to basically belike a brand ambassador for
McDonald's.
Um, but I will, I I, I, I willtry and look at it sort of this
passionately.
So, um, yeah.
So it was school holiday lastweek.
Uh, we went to Rome.
Rome is a shit show.
Uh, the, the old center of Romehas about 200,000 inhabitants.

(34:24):
They get 22 million tourists ayear.

Joachim (34:27):
Oh

Zoran (34:28):
Actually, that was last year.
I think this year is gonna be upby 10%.
'cause the Pope is opening someweird door or something and
there's a lot of like pilgrimscoming and, but it, it just,
it's, it is just mass tourismout of control and it's, you
know, tons and tons of tourgroups, a lot of them American
walking around like zombies withtheir little headphones in and
recording the same sort ofInstagram reel or TikTok of a

(34:51):
tiramisu, they wait 90 minutesto get, and anyway, it's, it's
ridiculous.
It's ridiculous.
But in that chaos, you can sortof look at McDonald's in some
ways as the mirror image ofStarbucks because they're,
they're, they're roughly aboutthe same size.
They both have 40,000 look, Imean, they both call them
stores, right?

(35:11):
They don't even call them likerestaurants.
It's 40,000 stores, right.
Uh, uh, around the world.
But, uh, McDonald's drives aboutthree to four times the sales of
Starbucks through the samefootprint.
And okay.
Maybe they have, you know, a fewmore occasions during the day
and they have kind of, you know,a restaurant.

(35:31):
But anyway, I, it's, it's, it's,I think it's, it's a big
difference.
And I think you can maybe kindof zoom in to the same brand
issues that we talked aboutearlier to kind of see some
different decisions in adifferent story, right?
So the first one is just comingback to that positioning idea,
right?
So if you look at, you know, theMcDonald's website or annual
report or whatever it is, theytalk about their, their brand

(35:55):
and their mission and theirpositioning as making delicious
feel good moments, easy foreveryone, right?

Joachim (36:03):
Mm-hmm.

Zoran (36:04):
feel good moments, easy for everyone.
So the whole fucking connectionsand humanity and like, you know,
all this nonsense, it's like,okay, it has something to do
with food and it's easy when youdon't want to think about stuff.
You go to McDonald's, right?
Or you need to pacify yourchild.
You go to McDonald's or you havea hangover, you go to

(36:25):
McDonald's.
Like, you know, it's like, youknow, it's like, I think very
just easy kind of solutions forthose occasions or, or kind of
those, those moments, right?
So I think just that, thatpositioning and that idea is a
lot more grounded.
And, and maybe for them it'sactually more important that
it's grounded because they areoperating through a mostly
franchise model, right?
Whereas Starbucks is mostlycompany owned.

(36:47):
Uh, so, so they do need, youknow, they have less control
over, uh, uh, over, over those,um, those restaurant stores
around the world.
Yeah.
Um, the, the, the second thingis, is, is the brand
architecture.
And again, I think here theyjust thought, I think a lot more
clearly about kind of what theyelevate into those sub-brands,
right?

(37:07):
So you have, I don't know if youhave it in the us I haven't been
in a while, but the, you know,the McCafe.

Ernest (37:12):
yeah,

Zoran (37:12):
You have.
Yeah.
You know, that's focused oncoffee.
You have Happy Meal, you have,you know, big Mac.
There's just the kind of theiconic products, the iconic
occasions that kind of separate'em and, and sort of branded
them, giving them a purpose.
But it's not, it's not sort ofdilutive, right?
Of the core, uh, of the coreMcDonald's kind of offer or

(37:32):
experience.
It's kind of, it feels much moreadditive, right?
So again, the Happy Meal and thekids targeted stuff doesn't make
you feel like you're gettingsomething worse out of, you
know, the regular burger or, youknow, what, whatever you're
getting, right?
So same thing with the coffee,right?
Like, they're just kindaelevated their, their, their,
their coffee.
Um, and then I think just interms of the brand partnerships,
uh, very, very differentapproach, right?

(37:55):
They've, they've not kind of,you don't, you don't buy a, you
don't buy McNuggets in a7-Eleven, right?
They bring in, they bring in.
Hello Kitty and Care Bears intothe store, you know, and that
gives, that gives kind ofnovelty and reason to come back
and collectibility and kind ofdrives that repeat.

(38:16):
They just, I think, thoughtabout these partnerships in a
much, uh, I think smarter, more,more, more, more strategic way
that just, that that doesn'tdilute the experience but
actually adds, add, adds to theexperience.
So, so, um, uh, and it, sothose, I think from a brand
perspective, you know, that'skind of what's happening.
But I think also just comingback to the business model, I
think there's just a lot more,uh, flexibility and adaptation

(38:40):
because of the franchise model.
Right.
So, uh, can you get a beer inMcDonald's?
In the US

Ernest (38:47):
No, I don't think so.

Zoran (38:49):
No.
Okay.
So in Rome, you know, peoplewere just, you know, getting
their.
Nuggets and burgers and justkind of hammering poni.
Uh, I think you can get you, youknow, you, you, you, you know,
they've obviously adapted thecoffee program to the local, the
local market.
And again, just, you know, asyou go country, by country, by
country, it's uh, uh, it's amuch, much more tailored,

(39:09):
heterogeneous thing.
Now I look, don't, let's, let'sbe real and like, let's not kid
ourselves, it's nowhere nearthird wave coffee or natural
wine or, you know, authenticityor, you know, real producers or,
I mean, we're still talking, youknow, a, a mass, a mass, very
mass, uh, experience.

(39:30):
But it is, it does feel a lotmore, um, you know, sort of
tailored and, and in a lot ofways thoughtful than

Joachim (39:39):
Hmm.

Zoran (39:40):
Starbucks.
Actually,

Ernest (39:41):
I'll share, um, a link in the show notes to, I think it
was a CNBC video from not toolong ago.
That talked about the successof, uh, fast food brands in
France of all places.
And they specificallyhighlighted, uh, McDonald's and
they interviewed a lot of,customers in France, and many of
them mentioned as to why they,uh, were such fans of

(40:01):
McDonald's, that they felt likeit was French, that they really
made an effort.
So, um, I think what you're,what you saw in Rome is not
specific to Rome.
I think it's, uh, that they're,they've been very successful
bringing to life globally.
I think the funny, ironic thingis that where they've really
struggled, really at least justbeen flat for some years now, is

(40:25):
in their home market in the US,uh, speaking of McDonald's.
That is the market where theyare, I'd say the most
homogenous, um, across, uh, amarket that is pretty dynamic
and diverse.
Um, so I would, I, I've alwayswondered why they don't bring
that global approach into the USat least give it a shot as, as

(40:48):
something to, bring some energy,uh, to their, to US operations,
which have just been kind ofmoribund a for a little while
now.

Joachim (40:57):
I mean, they have access to these international
menus.
Really don't, I mean you, I meanlike French, McDonald's will
have different items.
I mean, I'm not talking aboutthe beer, but food items and
then, and then the Japanese,McDonald's will have different
stuff.
So I mean, it almost feels likeyou could do like a very
patronizing, internationalrotating menu once in a while.

(41:19):
'cause the McRib was one ofthose things that in the states

Ernest (41:21):
Right,

Joachim (41:22):
motivated.
Right?
So you could do these limitededition things.

Ernest (41:25):
right.

Joachim (41:25):
I think maybe what you're saying more is the local,
getting into the local, likegetting the local market to be
more flexible and different thanacross the states.
Was that your

Ernest (41:36):
Yeah, ex.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Allowing for the same sort offlexibility within the us,
which, you know, has manydifferent geographic, um,

Joachim (41:44):
Yeah.

Ernest (41:45):
uh, differences in terms of food preferences, uh, and
allowing that to that,heterogeneity to come to life
here as well.
It just seems like, um, nobrainer opportunity, but, uh, I,
I don't know.
There's people I'm sure smarterthan me that have decided why
that's not a good thing to do.

Zoran (42:03):
O, obviously McDonald's should be hiring us to advise
them on this, so.

Joachim (42:07):
This is our pitch.
If you're listening, the GoldenArches, we we're calling you.

Ernest (42:12):
what you mentioned Zoran just brings to mind one other
kind of real world, tacticalexample that I thought might be
worth sharing.
Um.
it's a brand that sort ofparallels McDonald's in Coke.
Uh, when I was at Wieden andKennedy back in, uh, like 2010
or so, I worked on the Coke, uh,and Diet Coke North America
accounts, and that was just ahandful of years after Coke had

(42:36):
rolled out a, a hugelysignificant and hugely
successful redesign of their,um, visual identity.

Really soup to nuts (42:43):
the design of their packaging, their promo
materials, delivery trucks, thewhole shebang.
uh, we'll include a link, um, inthe show notes to some before
and after Images.
It was pretty significant, andthis visual identity overhaul
was led by Turner Duckworth,which is one of the most highly
regarded brand and packagingdesign agencies in the world.
And I loved how founding partnerBruce Duckworth explained the

(43:07):
why behind the work that hisagency had done for Coke.
Um, this is from an interviewthat was conducted many years
after, but uh, I'm quotingDuckworth here, he said.
time a new brand manager came inat Coke, they added something
new to the design, added bubblesto to the note freshness.
The next added some icicles ontop of that, another put on an

(43:29):
extra white swoosh.
Eventually you cover up the bitsthat are the unique and staple
parts of the brand.
So you have to strip that back.
It was stripping away all theunnecessary bits of design that
had accumulated over the yearson the packaging.
stripped them away.
So you were just left with theelements that were truly,
unmistakably Coca-Cola, unquote.

(43:51):
And I remember that at the timethis guy named David Butler was
Coke's VP of Global Design, andhe had echoed that sentiment to
our team in a way that alwaysstuck with me.
He said, you have to focus onthe things you can own.
And then just get rid ofeverything else.
Uh, another reason I really lovethis is that I think it echoes

(44:11):
the original brief way back in1915 that led to the now iconic
contoured Coca-Cola bottle.
And I think it was a brief thatwas remarkable, both in its
audacity and its simplicity.
That brief was simply to createa bottle so distinct that it
could be recognized by touch thedark or when lying broken on the

(44:32):
ground.
Um, and I think that, uh, the,the Turner Duckworth team really
kind of came back to that inthis, um, uh, redesign work that
they did.
I think, you know, for one, thatall speaks to that point you
made Zoran about simplifying andthe power of, of simplifying and
focus, uh, on a clearpositioning.

(44:53):
But, I wanted to reallyhighlight something that was a
build on that, which is, um, asDavid Butler explained in
interviews, I'm quoting him herenow, the whole business model at
Coca-Cola is about leverage anddriving scale around the world.
But in order to maximizeeffectiveness, we also
recognized we had to approachdesign with consistency,

(45:15):
adaptability, and culturalrelevance, unquote.
So using this new visualidentity as a baseline Butler's
team designed, uh, or created aweb-based tool that they called
the Design Machine, that enabledCoke employees and partners
around the world to createcustomized designs for packaging
posters, and, you know, whathave you.

(45:37):
uh, as Butler explained actuallyin an interview with The
Economic Times of India and aninterview in 2010, uh, I'm
quoting him here, Design Machinetakes assets and allows local
markets to customize them.
80% of what you do ispre-designed, and you can
customize that by up to 20%.
It gives us that kind offlexibility and productivity
across our company.

(45:58):
Imagine writing a brief,briefing an agency, getting the
work back, sending it tocorporate for approval.
What used to take a minimum oftwo weeks now takes 10 minutes,
unquote.
So, you know, just by way ofrecap here, Coke's centralized
global team developed thisphenomenal new visual identity,
but they recognized that asiconic as the Coca-Cola brand is

(46:19):
around the world, it couldn'tcome to life in a way that was
just universally homogenous.
So, uh, like McDonald's, theyrealized they had to allow for a
degree of heterogeneity in localmarkets.
And they had, I think, what wasreally surprising degree of
foresight back in the lateaughts to actually create a
tool, to create a platform thatvery efficiently enabled their

(46:41):
local teams to, um, deliver onthis sort of managed
heterogeneity.
And you know, I think this mightseem a little dry, but I thought
it was worth sharing because itshows that there are ways that
you can deliver on localizedheterogeneity for, you know,
it's a terribly un elegant term,but, uh, you know, that's what
we're talking about.
And, and do that while stillretaining global consistency

(47:04):
around the fundamental aspectsof your brand.
Um, I

Zoran (47:07):
AB absolutely a classic.
Yeah, absolutely.
A classic I case study and the,and the kind of power of design
and, and and, and sort of whatthey, what they did with that
and sort of invented Canva 10years before Canva, right?
Like with the kind of theautomation and the, uh, and, and
the online stuff and tools, Ithink.
Yeah.
Uh, super, super great casestudy and an example, uh, maybe

(47:29):
they need to bring them back inthough.
'cause I think they've, they'vedrifted

Ernest (47:33):
yeah.

Zoran (47:33):
It's, it's sort of, it's sort of like a decade, you know,
like every decade you kind ofneed a need to clean house.
Uh, I don't know how you guysfeel, like, I think it was
Ogilvy that convinced Coke tokind of replace the logo with
people's names on the packaging.
How, how do you guys feel aboutthat?

Ernest (47:50):
that was a, I think, an interesting, another interesting
example of allowing forheterogeneity in that, as I
recall, that work came out ofCoke, Australia, and I'm not
sure, you know, I think there's,you're probably right that it
was Ogilvy, out of Australiathat came up with the idea, and
it was apparently verysuccessful, it actually did

(48:10):
drive an increase in sales, soCoke globally then highlighted
that and sort of encouragedlocal teams in other markets to
adopt that concept as well.
So I thought that was anotherexample of something that came
bottom up.
It wasn't something that theglobal Coca-Cola team came up
with as an idea and forced down.

(48:33):
it was instead something thatcame from a local market that,
and went up.
Personally, I think it's kind ofcheesy, but apparently it was
effective.
I don't know.
Joachim, if you have a take onit.

Joachim (48:43):
I was just very confused because you walk into a
shop and you just see names,you, you kind of, I, I know it's
Coke and I know all that stuff.
You know, that's, it's,surprising that I would still be
confused and just be like, what?
Why does it say Pedro on thecan?
And what is the significance ofthis?
This should be legible to me asa customer walking in what this

(49:06):
is and what the joke is, or whatam I missing out on.
So found it very confusing.
I'm surprised hearing Ernestthat you said that it was, it
actually did something.
Um, but

Ernest (49:16):
I, I, I mean, I think to their credit, uh, you know,
maybe I'm totally rationalizinghere, but it was rooted in the
fundamental brand positioningfor Coke, which was kind of
around this idea that Coke isbetter when you share it with
someone else.
And so the intention was thatyou'd be buying it for someone
else, for Pedro, and you'd begiving it to Pedro and be

(49:37):
creating this moment of joy,shared joy.

Joachim (49:42):
I see.
Okay.

Zoran (49:43):
Yeah.
I don't know.

Joachim (49:44):
crossed his arms.

Ernest (49:45):
Yeah.

Zoran (49:47):
I don't know.
To me, to me it always cameacross as like, like
telemarketing, you know?
Like when they don't know like,what's your first name?
What's your last name?
And it's like, dear Kim, or youknow, dear Smith judge.
It's just, it feels so fakepersonal that it, I don't know.
To me it's sort of diluted.
It always felt diluted, but I'm,I'm probably not the, not the,
not the segment.

(50:07):
Not the target.

Joachim (50:08):
target.

Zoran (50:08):
good, good, good, good activation.
But

Joachim (50:11):
Yeah.

Zoran (50:11):
they've taken it too far.

Joachim (50:13):
Hmm.
Yeah.

Ernest (50:14):
Yeah.

Joachim (50:14):
yeah.
Yeah.
I, I find the, the point thatyou're making Ernest about kind
of the subtractive element andthen Zoran, and you're saying
every 10 years you need to getin

Ernest (50:22):
Hmm.

Joachim (50:22):
and you need to clean everything out.
Um, I think that is, it's a sadstate, but it is that you'll see
the images in the show notes ofthe Coke can, but it is like,
literally it gets so overloadedthat it is so easy to
understand, like it is now timeto stop.
Like we've added everything tothis damn can and this logo,
clean this thing up.

(50:44):
But it's so sad that it has totake that long and that there's
some drift.
There's always this drift awayfrom being tethered to like,
this is the core thing.
Just do this and we'll be okay.
But yeah.

Zoran (50:55):
It is just really hard if you, I mean, I don't, it's
probably similar in the productworld that you guys can can talk
more about, but like at least inthe brand world, like if you're
a brand manager and you'relooking at your brand Yeah.
8, 10, 12 hours a day, you getbored of it very quickly and you
wanna change things and move,you know, move things around,
but your, your customer maybespends, you know, split second

(51:15):
looking at it on a, on a shelfwhen they're buying it and, you
know, however long it is whenthey're consuming.
It's just, it's, it's, it is, itis very hard to kind of
reconcile those two realitiesand keep the discipline, um, uh,
you know, to, to, to kind ofkeep things clear.

Ernest (51:35):
one last, um, little case study I'll mention again
related to Coke is, um.
that point, Zoran, uh, the CEOwho enabled this redesign that
Turner Duckworth, um, executeduh, a guy named Neville Isdell.
he had come in, it was actuallya similar situation to Starbucks
where Coke had this sort ofcarousel CEOs, none of whom were

(51:58):
particularly successful.
The company had just beenstagnating for several years.
And then Neville Isdell came in.
He was actually a longtime Cokeemployee who had retired.
They brought him back to be CEOand he noted that one of the
things he had done when he wasleading Coca-Cola in the
Philippines to get his team totry to think, I hate to term

(52:20):
outside the box, but you know,outside of their own BS was he,
um, had a meeting where he, asthe head of Coke in the
Philippines, came in dressed ina Pepsi T-shirt, he had Pepsis
out on the table and Pepsi,tchotchkes.

(52:41):
he said, Hey, you guys we're,we're gonna be Pepsi and we need
to, come up with a plan for howwe're gonna attack Coke.
And, uh, you know, it's sillylittle thing, but it was a, a
tool that he found to beeffective for kind of, uh,
getting people to think outsideof that, uh, standard framework
that we, it's so easy to getstuck in.

Zoran (53:01):
Great, great idea.
I'll steal that for, for someworkshops coming up.

Ernest (53:05):
now, you know, just to kind of maybe bring this back, I
was curious.
Zoran and, and Joachim.
We've talked about some exampleshere, some, some specific things
like from McDonald's, from Coke.
Are there any things that youthink Starbucks could apply, to
help them address these issuesthat they're having?

Zoran (53:22):
I mean, look, I mean, I, I, I think we've given them a
lot of free advice on this call,right?
Like, I mean, I think, I think,you know, uh, you can, you know,
that, that, that I'm surethey're, they're aware of as
well.
Right.
So, I mean, I, yes, I mean, Ithink we've, we've covered a lot
of it, you know, from the, fromthe brand side, from the product
side, um, just kind of, youknow, figure out where they
really wanna play and, and Ithink commit to it and simplify

(53:45):
it.

Ernest (53:46):
Joachim, as someone who lives in Seattle.
What, what's your take?

Joachim (53:50):
Oh, act.
Yeah.
I hadn't made that connectionuntil he mentioned it.
The, the one thing that I comeback to, and that's mainly my
bias from, you know, mybackground as a protocol
designer I look at that walletapp quite carefully.
It's just a payment card rightnow.
So I don't know exactly what itis, but there's something in

(54:12):
that, and I feel like the magicis that people are willing to
load it up with money.
So you've already crossed athreshold there.
So there's some magic somewherein that, that I feel like hasn't
been fully explored, but I don'tknow exactly what it is.
Is it loyalty?
Is it some sort of other way ofcreating attachment?
Is there another way of creatingsense of belonging to your shop?

(54:34):
Is there a way to, you know,replicate something that creates
a weird pseudo community that wecan make money off of?
You know, that doesn't soundright, but you know what I mean?
Would you allow the wallet tobe, again, more heterogeneous.
It's a digital thing.
does it have to be the same damnthing wherever I go?
If I walk into the shop.
It modulates the experiencesomewhat in a very restricted,

(54:54):
sandboxy way that that isresponsive to what is happening
in the shop.
So you actually feel likevirtually as well as physically
that you're coming into thestore, it would also induce you
to go into the store to createthat experience, as opposed to
ordering remotely and thenpopping in.
So there's these things that youcould do to create some sort of
connection and cohesion.
But that's just where my mindgoes right now because I, I

(55:15):
think about that as, I thinkthey kind of, it's easy money,
you know, it's comes in after ayear, you can book it as
revenue.
You know what, why would youmess with it?
So just get people to load it upas much as possible.
And that's basically it.
But it feels like there might besomething there.

Ernest (55:32):
Uh, you know, this might seem like a little bit of a
tangent, but I mentioned earlierthat, um, Zoran and Joachim both
have a shared interest innatural wine.
Um, actually when Joachim, whenyou mention natural wine during
our previous episode, I, my earspricked up and I thought of, um,
for those who haven't heard thatepisode yet, Joachim had noted

(55:53):
that natural wine is an exampleof an industry that's embraced
the idea that's certainty andhomogeneity are not necessarily
always good things.
in fact, that variability withinthe same label and potentially
within, uh, the same vintage.
be a feature rather than a bug.
So, you know, a great example ofanti monoculture, anti
homogeneity.

(56:14):
Joachim, please jump in.
Am I characterizing your, yoursentiments about natural wine
correctly?

Joachim (56:20):
Yeah, that was, that was my vibe.
And also I think, and, and Zoranmight correct me for saying
this, but there's a certain,Risk and reward to natural wines
as well.
I feel like more of a chooseyour own adventure and because
you've kind of created theconditions that everyone
understands that this is the,the nature of the interaction,
you, you can have a bit more funwith it.

(56:42):
So I, I, I, yeah, it's a nonmonoculture variability
surprise.
you coming back.
Right.
It's, it's always modulatingbased on what's happening in the
world and I feel like it lendsitself to storytelling very
quickly.
So yeah, that, that was kind ofwhere I was coming from.

Ernest (56:58):
I was just curious, Zoran, just for the benefit of
anyone who's unfamiliar withnatural wine, could you just
sort of explain what naturalwine is?

Zoran (57:04):
Sure I, I'll give it a shot and I'm looking forward to
the recommendation section.
I hope you have some, some, somebottle recommendations later.
Joachim.

Joachim (57:11):
Oh,

Zoran (57:11):
Um,

Joachim (57:12):
no, no.
I have nothing.
You should.

Zoran (57:15):
you can think of sort of natural, of natural wine kind of
as a beverage and kind of on thebeverage level.
It's, it's basically grapes thatare organically farmed with, you
know, no roundup and pesticidesand herbicides and kind of
poison that you put into theground.

(57:35):
You don't, you, you, you, yousort of, you use native yeasts,
which is a big deal, right?
So, because that actually, like,that drives the fermentation,
has a big effect on the, on, onthe taste.
And then you just don't do funnystuff in the cellar, like, you
know, uh, adding color andtannin and, you know, yeah,
basically you don't, you don'tmess with it in the, in, in, in,

(57:55):
in the cellar.
Uh, so it's, it's sort of like,you know, wine without a lot of
makeup right on, on thebeverage, on the, on the
beverage side.
But I think, but I think alsoit's very, I don't know, just
having spent kind of couple ofyears in this, in this world.
Tangentially as a distributor.
I think a lot of it is about thepersonalities that, that kind of

(58:20):
make this stuff right, becauseyou, you, you, you're genuinely
dealing with farmers, right?
Like people that you know, likeactually like plant stuff and
are dependent on, you know, thewhims of nature and actually
take much, much, much higherrisks than conventional

(58:40):
winemakers.
'cause they don't treat and theydon't spray the shit out of
their vineyards, right?
And it, it's much, it's mucheasier to lose a harvest, uh,
when you farm this way than itis if you are, you know, if, if
you're just relying on, on, on,on chemicals and, and all that
stuff.
At least the more of these, youknow, people that I've met.
It's sort of like, you know,that old cliche about like how

(59:00):
a, how a, how a dog owner lookslike their dog.
And the other way around youkind of, you, you, you kind of,
you, you really see that, thatthe wines that, that, you know,
that that, that, you know, thesepeople make, are really
reflection of themselves.
You know, so you have like thereally precise, you know, half
German guy, economist trained,uh, seriously.

(59:21):
One, one here in, in in Eastern.
It makes like serious, yeah.
Uh, like really precise.
Uh.
Uh, you know, methodical onesand you have, you know, the kind
of, you know, crazy, you know,crazy kind of, uh, uh, bonvivant
scientist guy who, you know,spends a bunch of time in France

(59:42):
and then comes back here to, tokinda just leaves the vineyard
kind of to grow wild, then comesback and kind of makes some
stuff, uh, that's just kind ofin insane and every bottle's
different.
So it, it, it, it really is areflection of, of the
personalities.
And I think I, I think finallyit's sort of a, it's a culture
and kind of a scene as well,right?
Like, and I think you can sortof understand it.
It's, it's almost like music,you know, like, like, I don't

(01:00:04):
know, hip hop or punk or, or, orwhatever, right?
Like you, it's not about kind ofdefinitions and it's not
corporate.
It's very kind of self-policing.
And, and you kind of know who'sin and who's out, right?
Like, who's invited to thesecertain fairs or tastings and
who's not.
And you know, and it's, and it'skind of an informal enforcement.

(01:00:26):
But it's a very clearenforcement.
It doesn't, it doesn't mean ifyou have that like green organic
sign on the thing that meansnothing.
And actually in some cases it'sa warning sign because they're
probably treating organic as asmarketing.
And they do funny stuff, youknow, after, after, after they
get that, that certification.
So it has its own subculture,has its own visual codes, it has
its own, you know, sort of bars,environments and so on.

(01:00:47):
So, so it's kind of, you know,it's a beverage and it's a set
of personalities and it's aculture, uh, but it's also super
tiny.
It's like maybe one fromgenerous, 2% of global wine
production.

Joachim (01:01:02):
Yeah.

Zoran (01:01:02):
And the rest is, the rest is Starbucks, right?
Like the rest is Yeah.
The, the, the rest is, yeah.
Yeah.
So I dunno, that's kind of along-winded way of, of it.

Joachim (01:01:12):
but it's so interesting because, I mean, I'm super
biased about this stuff.
I like a good punk rock ethos toit, Like you said, there's the
norms that create the scene arealso only experienced.
They're not written down in acode book..
So I find that really, um,that's very energizing because
so much is mediated throughmachines now.

(01:01:32):
And for that, for the machineseal to be in the process, like
computers, you have to turnyourself into a legible thing.
You have to bucketize.
Yourself into a vector ofclassifications and things.
And then all of this just tolike quantize yourself into a
thing that is legible.
And when I hear about sceneslike this that are just, I

(01:01:53):
eligible you, I have no sense.
I have to go there andexperience.
You would have to be my guideand we could experience it
together.
It's fascinating to me.
And I feel like that's the stuffthat creates resilience in your
economy, resilience in theactivities of people, because.
We should have more of thisacross the board and, and more
industries.
You know, it should feel morelike this than hyper
corporatized nonsense.

(01:02:13):
'cause it, that stuff is notresilient and is generally a
monoculture and it's yourPrussian forests, right?
It's not the rich undergrowthand nutrients that spark new
things.
We're trying things, we're doingthings.
Experimentation is part of the,the, the core fabric of what
that community is trying to do.
And at being adventurous.
Like that's superanti-corporate, right?

Zoran (01:02:33):
Totally.
Totally.
And, and I think, you know,it's, it's probably kind of
intentionally opaque and it kindof takes time to penetrate.
So you kind of feel like you'veactually, like, once you put in
the work, you feel like you'vediscovered something, right?
It's not so easily, you know,just, it, it's not on the shelf
and says Pedro, right.
And you kind of pick it up,right?
Like, you need to, you, you,right?

(01:02:54):
Like you need, you need to do alittle bit of homework.
And I think, you know, the otherthing that's maybe interesting
about wine is that it's maybeone of the few food products
that I can think of that doesn'thave an ingredients label.
Right.
So,

Joachim (01:03:03):
Hmm.

Zoran (01:03:04):
you know, The, the, the kind of conventional stuff
doesn't have to disclose thatthey've put in, you know, all of
these chemicals and done reverseosmosis and, and, you know, put
in, you know, uh, mega purple tokind of color it and, you know,
and then boil off some, aalcohol.
You know what, like they don't,right.
So, uh, you really have to, you,you have to, you have to dig,

(01:03:25):
dig deeper for yourself.
And I think just that, thatprocess is, is, is kind of
rewarding.
And, uh, you know, sometimes youend up with, that's undrinkable,
uh, but sometimes you findsomething that's amazing.
And, uh, that's, that's, that'spart of the, that's part of the
joy.
the, the end.

Ernest (01:03:44):
you know, when we worked together, I didn't recall you
being a huge wine person, so Iwas wondering what led you to
be, you know, become adistributor of natural wine?

Zoran (01:03:53):
again, it was, it was really, I think just this, this,
um, connection to something realthat was very appealing.
You know, especially sort ofliving in, you know, places like
Hong Kong and Singapore and.

(01:04:14):
You know, population density of,you know, 10,000 people per
square kilometer and no, youknow, no, no farming, no, no
land, no, no connection tonature.
I think it was a connection tonature, connection to home,
connection to something real.
Um, that's, that, that's really,that's really, um, been, been
super appealing.

(01:04:34):
Um, and uh, yeah, we reallyenjoyed it.
And I think just, just again,the, the community of people
that, that we've met, that we'vemet around it, that, that sort
of care about growing thingsother than their bank accounts.

Joachim (01:04:46):
Hmm.

Ernest (01:04:47):
that's awesome.
Uh, this has been a, um.
learning conversation for me, agreat experience.
Um, and huge thank you to Zoranfor, for joining us on short
notice for this sort of kind ofemergency episode.
Um, but don't leave just yetbecause Zoran is actually
staying with us for our actualrecommendation segment.

(01:05:10):
All these things we've alreadytalked about notwithstanding.
now just for background on this,Zoran, in every episode, Joachim
and I end with a recommendation,uh, I may be misremembering
this, but I think initially wehad imagined this as an
opportunity to highlight aproduct that we were
particularly excited about orparticularly disappointed by.

(01:05:33):
um, in practice we've ended upusing this as an opportunity to
highlight pretty much anythingthat's kind of gotten us
excited, including books, films,music, and, uh, occasionally
products.
So with

Zoran (01:05:47):
it's great.
That's why, that's why I havethese headphones.
Like that's one of my favorite,that's one of my favorite parts
of the show.
Yeah.

Ernest (01:05:52):
Oh, that's great.
Uh, Zoran, just for anyone, uh,who's listening held up a pair
of headphones that, uh, hebought based on our, one of our
previous recommendations.
so with that context, Zoran, isthere anything you'd like to
recommend to our listeners?
I,

Zoran (01:06:06):
Yeah, a couple of things.
So I think if you are interestedin kind of heterogeneity and
this kind of anti-corporateworld, maybe check out, uh, an
app called Raisin.
Uh, I think the URL is Raisindot digital, but it's a, it's,
it's really the, the, the sortof guide for natural wine, uh,

(01:06:28):
in, in cities around the world.
And you don't even have to drinkwine actually to find it useful,
because I think it, it, it sortof, it has a list of bars and
has a list of, uh, wine shops,also a list of restaurants.
And I think if you're arestaurant that cares about your
wine program and kind of, youknow, not serving people poison,
they, they will care about thefood.
And I think, you know, the, whenwe travel, to be honest, that's

(01:06:50):
one of the

Ernest (01:06:51):
Ah,

Zoran (01:06:51):
useful.
Guides to a city that isinfinitely more filtered and
interesting and real thanMichelin or, you know, any of
TripAdvisor type nonsense.
So, so, uh, checkout raisin, uh,I think they just passed a

(01:07:13):
million users, so maybe, maybe,maybe it will go downhill, but
it's still good.
It's still good.
Uh, uh, so that, that, that,that's number one.
I think, uh, if you wanna drinksomething interesting, check out
this, uh, uh, wine, uh, producercalled Piquentum,
P-I-Q-U-E-N-T-U-M.

(01:07:35):
Uh, super interesting guy.
Half French, half Croatian, uh,has maybe the best designed wine
label of all time.
So if you're into design, checkout the label.
It's, it's, it's awesome.
You can, you can see, you cansee the story, uh.
Last, but not least, uh, if youwanna just hear some stream of
consciousness, some thoughtsaround sort of food and where

(01:07:58):
it's going and uh, uh, kind thefuture of that category.
Uh, check out the newsletterthat I do with my colleague
Jennifer.
Uh, it's called Unstuck and weare on, um, ghost.
So we're on unstuck Ghost io.

Ernest (01:08:12):
And that last recommendation, um, is really
funny to me because when I knewZoran Whatever, how many decades
ago you were, a carnivore, Iguess.

Zoran (01:08:27):
I still am.
I still am.
I don't eat vegetables.
I don't eat vegetables, but, youknow, uh, anyway, that's a whole
nother rabbit hole.
Um, but you know, they foodindustry needs to come up with
something that's gonna, youknow, make me stop eating animal
grown meat that takes a hundredcalories to produce one calorie
of nutrition.
So anyway, that's, that's whatit's about.

Ernest (01:08:47):
Yeah.
Which is great.
I think it's a fantastic irony.
Um, how about you Joachim?
Do you have a recommendationthis week?

Joachim (01:08:55):
I have a product to recommend.

Ernest (01:08:57):
Hey.

Joachim (01:08:58):
like a half recommendation.
I'm not sure about it.
I'm still working on it.
I, I think I've mentioned thisidea in previous episodes about
peer-to-peer networking.
So

Ernest (01:09:09):
Yeah.

Joachim (01:09:10):
in that whole rabbit hole of, instead of using cloud,
actually a good thing to talkabout this week in that there
was a massive AWS outage at thebeginning of

Ernest (01:09:19):
Right.

Joachim (01:09:19):
affected many companies, including the one I
work at.
But, um, there was somethingabout peer-to-peer data sharing
and networking that felt verystraightforward and clean.
It was like, that's what theinternet was about was we
connect computers up and we canbounce messages around these
computers until they recentlyinstead of a central node.
So I then started thinking aboutwould it be possible to make a

(01:09:42):
small hardware device that'slike a social network that runs
on a Bluetooth mesh Um, and soit turns out Chinese have.
Produced so many of these smalldevices that run a specific
chip, the ESP 32 chip, and it'sthis tiny, um, computer.

(01:10:05):
And so it's from a companycalled M five Stack.
device I have is a core two.
It's a tiny square that has atouchscreen, USBC accelerometer,
a speaker, and a little SD cardslot so you can load it up with
stuff and it can be coded inArduino, which is a very
hobbyist favorite programminglanguage, or micro python, which

(01:10:27):
is a lightweight version ofPython.
I've been trying to buildsomething with this thing
together with my LLM, uh,services to try and get
something off the ground.
It's been.
It's in many ways verystraightforward and in many ways
it's really painful.
So that's why my recommendationskind of half, but the thing
that's crazy is it costs$30 andthe technology packed into that

(01:10:50):
thing is, I don't know, it isstill mind blowing to me.
I think we've gotten so used tothe corporatized technology
sector that we believe a devicehas to cost a thousand dollars
for it to be useful and it needsto have, you know, gigahertz of
computational power.
This thing has got about a fewhundred megahertz, which is
incredible.
and it can do a lot of amazingstuff.

(01:11:12):
Enough of the stuff that I wastrying to experiment with.
So I have two of these devices.
I'm trying to get them to speakto each other, but,

Ernest (01:11:17):
Hmm.

Joachim (01:11:18):
um.
As a, like an experimentationplatform to make a very simple
project.
It's very, very cool.
It's, uh, there's a, there's alot of reasonable documentation.
It's still not working a hundredpercent, but I feel like it's a
good start, like as a platform,if you ever want to just fool
around with hardware and codingand use a visual coding
language, which they have, whichis their thing called UI Flow.

Ernest (01:11:40):
Huh.

Joachim (01:11:41):
It's a pretty cool product.
And, um.
$30.
$20, so I would recommend that Mfive stacks Core two.

Ernest (01:11:48):
Oh, that's a, that's a great one.
on my end.
Uh.
Uh, I talked LA I think it waslast episode, about, um, having
gotten into, back into runningin a pretty big way.
And I think I've mentioned inthe past affection for a
YouTuber named Yowana, uh, who,uh, is focused on running,
primarily does running shoereviews, but just generalized

(01:12:11):
running content.
And I wanted to highlight notonly his channel, we'll provide
a link to that, but also hisapp.
Uh, he's created this brandcalled Supwell uh, that's kind
of the, uh, brand for his, forhim and this community he's
created in this app.
uh, it's a a for-fee app.

(01:12:32):
You pay$5 a month to get accessto this community.
um.
I've gotten tons of value out ofit.
Uh, if you're a sneakerhead anda runner, one of the big
benefits is that you get accessto this like-minded community.
Um, and you get access to peoplewho tend to want to sell lightly

(01:12:53):
worn running shoes, uh, at adiscount.
So it can be a really, I mean,it's already on my end at least
paid for itself many times over,uh, in terms of my ability to
get access to, um, you know,shoes that tend to be pretty
expensive these days at a prettysignificant discount.
But the reason I really wantedto highlight him, not only
because I really like what he'sdoing, is I thought it was a, a

(01:13:15):
great example of kind of, uh,anti monoculture that we've been
talking about and antiheterogeneity.
if you look at his content,almost as though he, uh.
Created a checklist of all thethings that your standard
typical YouTube running shoereviewer does and is, is doing

(01:13:38):
the exact opposite.
his videos are typically like anhour plus long, and they're
really meandering.
So it's not for everyone.
But, um, his perspective isreally unique and it comes from
a real place.
He's a very serious runner.
He calls himself a hobby jogger,though, you know, he's not.
Um.
He, he, he's not coming from asuper elite perspective and

(01:14:00):
trying to create, um,distinction in that way.
So a very unique perspective, avery personal perspective, um,
that has led to this veryvibrant community of people who,
um, you know, want to, who, youknow, who have, uh, shared set
of values.
Kind of like, I think the wayZoran described, uh, the
community of natural wine

Joachim (01:14:21):
Hmm.

Ernest (01:14:22):
I feel very similar sort of thing when I kind of, um, log
into the Supwell app.
also wanted to highlight,highlight it, because I thought
it was a really cool example ofthis sort of generation of
professional content creators.
think, um, you know, we've seena few generations over the,
decades now.
Uh, and most recently, you know,you've had people who.

(01:14:46):
um, beholden to the platforms.
You know, this, I'd say whatmaybe first generation of
professional content creatorsum, on platform driven
advertising, Google AdWords orGoogle's, um, uh, YouTube
advertising.
Kind of more recently, you'veseen an evolution to creator
driven monetization via likebrand tie-ups, the ubiquitous

(01:15:08):
Squarespace ads or VPN ads thatyou hear, uh, creators reading
in their, um, YouTube videos ordirect monetization via
platforms like Patreon.
still they're beholden to theplatform be out, uh, providers
because you needed to kind of dowhat the algorithm wanted you to
do to get the views you neededto be able to monetize your

(01:15:29):
content.
But now what, what we'restarting to see, and I think uh,
Yoanna and Supwell is a greatexample of this is.
maybe you could call it like athird generation, a gen three of
professional content creatorswho are shifting the power
dynamic.
So in the case of, um, Yowanna,he's created this app, the
Supwell app, um, and he stilluses his YouTube videos and his

(01:15:52):
Instagram content and, and, uh,TikTok content to, um, kind of
build and cultivate hisaudience.
But then he generates the bulkof his revenue through this
complimentary product, uh, andservice offering via his app.
And he owns that relationshipnow, like he owns that
relationship with me now.
Uh, so he, you know, while um,he still gets some revenue from

(01:16:16):
YouTube and these otherplatforms he's on, he's has just
much more control over his ownbusiness.
Um, and it, it's really excitingto see.
Where people like Yowana aretaking it.
Like his current app is reallyjust a wrapper on an existing
platform called Circlecircle.io.
Uh, but he's right about tolaunch essentially like a Strava

(01:16:40):
competitor to see a, you know,independent creator creating
this really ambitious, uh,platform and launching it into a
built-in audience, it's justsuper exciting to see, these,
this kind of next generation ofcontent creators creating for
themselves their own viable, um,business platforms.

(01:17:06):
So, uh, for a lot of reasons, I,I wanted to highlight that.
I think, uh, you know, hiscontent's, super fun, but also
just as, uh, an example of theevolution of, uh, content
creation online.

Zoran (01:17:17):
Seems, seems a lot deeper than who was the other guy you
had that was selling thewallpapers?
That seemed like the, theopposite.

Ernest (01:17:24):
Yeah.

Joachim (01:17:25):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.

Zoran (01:17:27):
See, I listened to your, I listened to your stuff.

Joachim (01:17:29):
you do.
That was a,

Zoran (01:17:30):
Yeah,

Joachim (01:17:31):
episodes ago.
Wow.
you,

Ernest (01:17:34):
I know.
I'm really impressed.
Well, uh, that does it for us,uh, today.
And, you know, aside from beinga listener, thank you once again
Zoran for joining us for thisimpromptu episode.
Uh, where can listeners followyou or find more of your work?

Zoran (01:17:49):
Uh, yeah, thanks a lot for having me on.
This was, this was super fun.
Uh, yeah, so just check outeither Unstuck or find me on
LinkedIn, uh, with my verydifficult to spell last name.
So, uh, Svetlicic, but it'smaybe in the show notes.

Ernest (01:18:03):
Yeah, we'll include the

Zoran (01:18:04):
but yeah, but thanks for, thanks for, uh, thanks for
having me on.
This was a lot of fun.

Ernest (01:18:07):
Oh no.
We really appreciate it.
Um, and to our listeners, thankyou for joining us here at
Learn, Make, Learn.
And as I noted earlier, we'dlove to hear from you.
have thoughts on anything we'vediscussed or recommended today,
or maybe there's a product orservice you think we should talk
about, it's a request, aquestion, or an observation,
please share your thoughts withus at Learn make learn@gmail.com

(01:18:30):
or on threads at Learn Make,learn Show, all one word.
Thanks for listening, and wehope you'll join us for the next
Learn.
Make, Learn.

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