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October 13, 2025 72 mins

What can product people learn from Starbucks’ recent struggles, and how are these lessons linked to a venerable British book retailer, an upstart French running brand, and a barmy Japanese watchmaker?

INTRO & FOLLOW-UPS – 02:47
Starbucks closing stores
SPVs, Credit, and AI Datacenters
This is How the AI Bubble Will Pop
Neue Klasse – 60 Years of the BMW 1500
World Premiere of the new BMW iX3
BMW Hofmeister Knick—Behind the Lines

STARBUCKS’ STRUGGLES – 14:08
No Logo at 20
Globalization and Its Discontents
The Walmart Effect
100 Cups of Coffee in a City on Fire

ANTI-HOMOGENEITY FTW – 21:08
Why high street coffee chains may have had their day
Why Are Independent Coffee Shops Succeeding?
Starbucks' Digital Dilemma

LESSONS FOR PRODUCT PEOPLE – 36:00
Seeing Like a State
Metis matters
Lessons learnt from Waterstones’​ turnaround
Personality Disorders and Culture
SATISFY
How Satisfy Got the Cool Kids Into Running
Ernest’s G-SHOCK Frogman
Ibe Kikuo and the Development of the G-Shock
G-SHOCK GA-V01

LESSONS FOR PRODUCT PEOPLE – 57:19
Alien: Earth
Alien: Earth soundtrack
The Ballad of Wallis Island
Charlie Brooker’s Screenwipe

CLOSING – 01:11:08

****

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CREDITS
Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com
Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com

Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ernest (00:04):
Hello and welcome to Learn Make Learn where we share
qualitative and quantitativeperspectives on products to help
you make better.
My name is Ernest Kim, and I'mjoined by my friend and co-host
Joachim Gregger.
Hey Joachim.
How's it going?

Joachim (00:18):
Good.
I think, I wanna say, I wantedto complain and say I'm tired,
I'm trying to stay positivebecause we have a lot of stuff
to talk about.
but No, we're good.
We're good.
It's, um, it's already theautumn.
We were just

Ernest (00:33):
Right?

Joachim (00:33):
the summer and now we're in the autumn.

Ernest (00:35):
Yeah.

Joachim (00:35):
Um, but.
Yeah, hopefully, we'll, we'llget the cadence up a bit, but,
um, yeah.
How is the, uh, the beginning ofautumn treating you in Portland?

Ernest (00:44):
Oh, pretty well.
Um, it was absolutely beautifultoday.
I actually ran the half marathonin the Portland Marathon this
morning,

Joachim (00:53):
Whoa, whoa.
Oh my goodness.

Ernest (00:55):
it, it, it was just absolutely perfect.
Uh, it actually, the raceactually started before sunrise,
and so we were able to see thesunrise as, you know, over the
course of the race.
And, uh, it was, it was prettyamazing.
The weather was absolutelyperfect, uh, for a race, so that
was great.

Joachim (01:16):
Am am I allowed to ask what your time was, or is

Ernest (01:20):
Oh,

Joachim (01:20):
faux

Ernest (01:21):
sure.
Yeah.
Well, I was, my goal was tofinish anything under two hours
and I, uh, yeah, so that would,I've never done that.
I've only, this is just mythird.
Half marathon.
My first road half marathon wasactually this May, I'd never run

(01:41):
a, a road half marathon prior tothis May, and I did that in like
2 22.
I completely blew up.
I walked for a bunch of it.
Uh, so for this one, my goal wasto finish under two, and I
finished in 1 58, 31.

Joachim (01:55):
Nice.

Ernest (01:56):
So with a little margin,

Joachim (01:58):
Yeah,

Ernest (01:58):
uh, thanks.
Uh, uh, uh, I was happy.
I had originally actually signedup for the marathon, but I, um,
developed this, um, injury in myfoot, uh, posterior tibial
tendonitis.
And, uh, it still hasn't goneaway.
So I just realized I'm, I'mjust, it's gonna be, if I am
able to finish a marathon, itwould be terrible.

(02:20):
So let's actually have fun andswitch to the half instead.

Joachim (02:24):
I mean, the half is no joke, so it's still a big deal.
Well done.

Ernest (02:28):
Oh, thanks.
But I, that's why I love thehalf, I think it's a good, it's
challenging, but it doesn'twreck you like the marathon
wrecks you.
So, um, you could still actuallyhave fun.
But yeah, so fall has beengreat.

Joachim (02:42):
Wow.
What a start putting us all toshame.

Ernest (02:45):
No, gosh.
Uh, well, you know, you talkedabout our episode cadence.
This is actually episode 29,and, uh, our topic today was
actually sparked by currentevents.
As we've, uh, intimated here,we're, recording this in early
October of 2025.
In the week following thedisclosure from Starbucks, CEO,
Brian Niccol, that, uh, thecompany, uh, would be closing

(03:08):
about 1% of its retail locationsacross North America and, uh,
would be laying off and actuallyhas now laid off 900 non-retail
employees.
For context, non-retailemployees are people who don't
work at Starbucks stores, butinstead in corporate roles such
as hr, it, product development,et cetera.
Now this layoff is on top of the1,100 non-retail employees that

(03:31):
the company sacked in February.
So upwards of 2000, uh,corporate jobs cut this year,
and 1% of stores which analystsestimate as equating to anywhere
between 430 to 520 locationsalready closed as of this
recording.
It's clear that Starbucks isstruggling and we're gonna share
our perspectives on the reasonsbehind the struggle through the

(03:54):
lens of product.
We'll then highlight lessonsthat we think will be applicable
to people like you and us whoare in the business of making
products.
But before we dive into that,uh, we just wanted to start by
sharing some follow up toprevious episodes.
Joachim, do you have anyfollow-ups you'd like to share?

Joachim (04:12):
Yeah, we had an off the cuff episode a while back.
And I had a title, it was likeOff the Cuff and AI Nonsense.
So we're talking about AI stuffthere.
And uh, I stumbled on thispretty interesting article by
Paul Kedrosky, which we'll linkto in the show notes.
Um, and was, the title of thepiece is SPVs Credit and AI Data

(04:33):
Centers.
Um, and it was kind ofhorrifying.
So I was, if you care aboutcompanies, results, um, uh, meta
announced pretty healthy profitsstill from its ads business.
Of course it is an advertisingcompany.
All the other stuff is just forfun.

(04:55):
Um, and, you know, hiring peoplefor a hundred million dollars is
just for show.
The primary business is sellingpixels and people's eyeballs.
And actually this week they justannounced that they would be
selling the, information frompeople's prompts to advertisers
for targeting.
So, you know, they're just.
Kind of the same business model.

(05:15):
Still nothing's changed.
It's just the, the thing thatthey're selling, it's still you,
but via a different medium.
But anyway, the results lookedgreat.
I was so confused.
I was like, how is thispossible?
They're investing this insaneamount of money in data centers.
Uh, and so this piece, um, cameacross my feeds and, uh, it
basically just explained it verystraightforwardly.

(05:38):
So it's just account trickery.
There's no, like, nothingspecial going on here.
They haven't figured anythingout.
They are raising money, um,using alternative vehicles.
And this article basicallybreaks down what they're using.
They're using special purposevehicles, um, via the private
markets.
So they're not going in a publicway wrecking their balance

(06:00):
sheets.
They're basically formingspecial companies that then
build the data centers.
They are the majorityshareholder of those companies.
uh, debt issue with providersare a minority owner in that
thing.
And so all this debt sits withthose companies that Facebook
controls, but it's not fa, oh,it's not Meta's debt.
It is that company's debt ofwhich they happen to be the

(06:22):
majority shareholder and so on.
So they, these special purposevehicles are the way that
they're keeping huge amounts ofdebt their books and.
These markets and the way thisis done is super opaque.
They're paying a premium overthe interest rate they would
normally get as meta, preciselybecause they're willing to pay
that to keep it off theirbalance sheets.

(06:43):
And, um, who knows?
That's, that's kind of what thispiece is asking is like, what do
we know?
What, what does this do whenthere's actually this extra risk
that's being put into thesystem, but it's not gonna get
priced in'cause of the accounttrickery.
So, that was just a littlefollow up to the whole, the
craziness of the hype, whichhas, you know, just gotten more

(07:03):
insane as time has passed.
It's pretty crazy.
I thought we were.
Some crazy point before and, andnow we're at this very crazy
closed loop world of, mygoodness, I don't know what's
going on anymore.
So this was a very soberingpiece of writing where you could
just say, oh, it's not thatdifficult.
They're just like hiding stuff.
Um, and they're using tricks.

(07:24):
So it's accounting tricks rightnow.
Who knows what the benefit isgonna be of these things, but,
um, I thought that was quitenice to read something sobering
like that.
So that was my quick follow upto AI nonsense.
It continues.
That's basically the theme.
AI nonsense continues, right?

Ernest (07:40):
I think that's a, a really good one.
that reminds me, actually, Ialso heard a great podcast and
we'll include a link to this aswell.
I, I can't remember now, whichof the dozens of podcasts I
listen to, it was, um, from, butit was on this exact same topic
of, um, the chicanery that thesecompanies are using to hide
these enormous costs from theirbalance sheets.

(08:03):
And it, it, this episode raisedthis added risk because they're,
um, not only offloading,apparently offloading the risk
from their books, but alsoextending the risk out to other
segments of the economy.
So, you know, a lot of peoplemight think that, oh, this
downside risk is limited tothese big tech companies, but

(08:24):
actually it's not anymorebecause of the way this debt is
being distributed.

Joachim (08:29):
Yes.

Ernest (08:29):
It's a, a, an important topic to highlight.

Joachim (08:32):
Yeah, that.
Yeah, exactly.
That's exactly it is the kindof, are we potentially looking
at a risk level that's like 2008where people are

Ernest (08:40):
Right,

Joachim (08:40):
this stuff and we are all indirectly exposed to it and
we don't even realize that's,we're

Ernest (08:44):
right, right.

Joachim (08:44):
yeah, it's pretty, it's a little bit worrying to put it
bluntly.
Yeah.

Ernest (08:50):
Um, I have one quick bit of, uh, follow up as well.
It's to our most recent episodeon, uh, Raymond Loewy and the
Maya principle, or most advancedyet acceptable.
Uh, I just, uh, since werecorded that episode, I thought
there was a great example ofMaya being brought to life in,
uh, BMW and the launch of theirlatest Neue Klasse, um, in the

(09:11):
form of this new model that'scoming out next year called the
iX3.
It's, uh, they're calling ittheir Neue Klasse once again.
Um, and it's their, uh,completely from the ground up.
New, class of vehicles built onthis completely new electric
architecture.
It's, it's very exciting.

(09:32):
Um, the, the guts of it are allnew, including a whole new
compute architecture.
But I thought it was a greatexample of Maya in that while
offering lots of newness, likeit's very huge departures for
them in, in many different ways.
They've tapped into, um, a, amore acceptable design language.

(09:55):
You know, we talked about in theMaya episode, BMW and the launch
of their i3 and which were theirfirst electric vehicles, and
they were really out there, andyou, I think a lot of car geeks
like me, loved both of them, butthey were huge failures in the
marketplace because theyweren't, they, they failed to
deliver on that Maya, you know,they weren't acceptable, they

(10:16):
kind of pushed too far in everyway.
Uh, so BM BMW clearly haslearned their lessons from this.
So even though this latest NeueKlasse has, uh, completely new
gubbins, um, the shell.
Is very approachable.
Um, taps into the original NeueKlasse that was launched in the
sixties.
You know, if you're a car geek,you'd really recognize some of

(10:38):
the design cues from thoseclassic, beautiful cars, uh, but
modernizes them, in a way that,uh, feels new, but, you know,
still feels a little bitfamiliar.
So I thought that was a greatexample of Maya being brought to
life, in a very concrete way byBMW.
But, uh, Jo, I was wondering ifyou had familiarity with the

(10:58):
Neue Klasse of

Joachim (10:59):
Yeah, it's uh, I think that period of BMWs is kind of,
you're into the vintage retroBMW period, that's basically
where the.
for everything that BMW is todaycomes from, from that period.
kind of interesting that BMWleans on that phrase again
because the Neue Klasse in thesixties was there to basically

(11:20):
save the company from insolvency

Ernest (11:22):
Yeah.

Joachim (11:23):
were in deep, deep trouble, uh, and were, I think
almost taken over by Mercedes orsomething like that.
Like they were, they were done.
This reset for them establishthem as this sporty luxury
brand.
But it's also the period that,um, a specific designer is
attached to, which is, um, hisname is, what's it?

(11:44):
Vi

Ernest (11:46):
Mm-hmm.

Joachim (11:47):
And Hofmeister is famous in the BMW lore because
he is the creator of theHofmeister knick,

Ernest (11:55):
Yeah.

Joachim (11:55):
at the, the last window on the passenger side, which has
this little angle to it.
We'll send a share image of itbecause it doesn't make sense
otherwise.
But it's the basically thislittle angle that is unique to
BMW and they've always had it,it's kind of their reference.
If you go through all of the BMWcars, there's a hofmeister nick,

(12:16):
um, which is the hoof maisterbend.
And of course in this NAYAcluster, it's still there last
window.
It's got that little connect.
So it's very nice and they've,you know, they've reduced the
size of that kidney and the, thegrill and all that stuff.
So it feels much more palatable,much more acceptable.
But um, yeah, I just found itcurious that they would use like

(12:36):
the, the way they, I mean itseems like internally they
probably were feeling that theywere facing an existential
crisis about who they are, whatare they doing?
and I have been seeing a lotmore, um, electric BMWs, that,
that look like normal threeserious sedans, but they're
electric, uh, and people likethem.
I mean, I,

Ernest (12:55):
Mm-hmm.

Joachim (12:55):
way more than I was a year ago.
so those are very much the, theacceptable face of, uh, the
modern BMWs.
So maybe someone realized thatthey needed, uh, a reset and,
and this was the way to do it,but, um, yeah, it's, it's an
interesting.

(13:16):
It's an interesting thing tosee.
a lot of these electric cars, Imean, Hyundai was an example
They are leaning on things fromthe past and they did it way,
way earlier than everyone else.
retro, very kind of eightiesmodern tech tron like design

Ernest (13:33):
Yeah.

Joachim (13:34):
Um, and super successful.
The Ioniq 5, I mean, that thingis very, very successful
electric car.
Um, so I'm sure BMW was probablykicking themselves that they
didn't lean more into thatdirection and understanding now
that this is what people want.
They want with the, the, youknow, the obvious technology
benefits of an

Ernest (13:53):
Right.

Joachim (13:53):
with instantaneous torque and all those things.
I don't think the shape of thecar needs to reflect it.
Once you get in and drive it,you'll know it.
So, we'll see what, what comesnext from this, this, uh, reset
for BMW.
It should be quite interesting.

Ernest (14:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm really excited as well.
Alright, well let's, uh, jumpback to our main topic for
today, which is Starbucks, whythey couldn't beat, uh, local
coffee shops, and also whatlessons this can offer for
people in the business of makingproducts.
Now I noted at the outset thatStarbucks is struggling and they
have been for some time now, andthis is quite a departure from

(14:28):
the heady days of the earlyaughts when Starbucks was on
average opening an astonishing1500 stores per year, with 2,500
new locations in 2007 alone.
This hypergrowth was presaged byNaomi Klein in her enormously

influential book, no Logo: Taking Aim at the Brand Bullies, (14:46):
undefined
which was first published inDecember of 1999.
Uh, for those who perhaps aren'taware of the book, I'll share a
brief passage from a 2019 pieceby Dan Hancox in The Guardian
titled No Logo at 20.
Hancox Writes, quote, reading nologo back then in my first year

(15:07):
at university was hugelyformative.
The book, mixing eye openingreportage with sharp tongued
analysis of consumer capitalismwas a Bible for understanding
the world my generation wasgrowing up in and the motor
behind a new kind of grassrootspolitics.
The battle lines were clear asordinary citizens around the

(15:27):
world stood in opposition tocorporate greed, sweatshops,
union busting, mc jobs,privatization and environmental
destruction, and the avatar forthem all the increasingly
unavoidable logos of Westernsuper brands, unquote.
Joachim.
Had you read No Logo?
Was it a book that impacted youas well?

Joachim (15:48):
It's funny, I think this was a very interesting
period in general actually.
Like the, the no logo thing, wasnot a book that I read, but it
was very, it was out there.
The book that I did read wasJoseph Stick, lit's
Globalization and HisDiscontent, was of this period
when, in the late nineties whereeveryone was questioning global

(16:08):
free trade, the W-T-O, I-M-F,world Bank, these institutions
that were going around andmaking countries sign up for all
kinds of crazy stuff.
Financial institutions pushingmoney in and pushing money out
and having World Bank and IMFhelping with bailouts, putting
crazy conditions on thesecountries to go through
austerity.
I mean, it was in the air.
And is also the period that wehad the big protest in Seattle

Ernest (16:32):
Right,

Joachim (16:33):
the World Trade Organization meetings where they
smashed up Starbucks cafes, youknow, that was part of the
protest is like you, that theywere in the late nineties.
Um, Starbucks was a symbol ofglobalization run amok, and mega
brands destroying everythingthat we thought was nice about
the world.
I did read her magazinebeforehand,

Ernest (16:53):
Uh,

Joachim (16:54):
that they were publishing before she wrote the
book, which was calledAdbusters.

Ernest (16:59):
yeah.

Joachim (16:59):
yeah.
And so I remember flickingthrough that, and that was kind
of interesting, very specificangle, but then she started
broadening it out with the, theno logo stuff.

Ernest (17:07):
Right.

Joachim (17:08):
Had you read it at the time when it came out, or was it
something that

Ernest (17:11):
I hadn't read it, but as someone who was working in the
ad industry, it was definitely atopic of discussion.
It's funny how many people inthe ad industry read Adbusters.
Um, it was, you know,'cause Ithink we, yeah.
Uh, but we, we felt that too.
I mean it, you know, obviouslywe're all people and, um, we see

(17:34):
and feel the same currents andshe tapped into something that,
um, I think a lot of people inthe industry also, uh, fears and
concerns that were shared.

Joachim (17:45):
Yeah.

Ernest (17:45):
so yeah, it had a huge impact.
Uh, I remember how, how.
Influential it was at the time.
Um, and as you mentioned, youknow, one of the super brands
that Klein singled out wasStarbucks.
Uh, in a section titledClustering the Starbucks model.
Klein wrote, and I'm quoting,uh, the book here, Starbucks'
combination of the big box andclustering approaches to

(18:07):
retailing is having atransformative effect on the
retail landscape.
Though they represent verydifferent retail trends, the
combined effect of the Walmartand Starbucks models has been to
gradually erode the market shareof small business in what was
once one of the few fieldsremaining, where independent
operators stood a solid chanceof competing head to head with

(18:27):
multinationals.
Whether they're using theirclout to drive prices down to
impossibly low levels, to keepthem artificially high or simply
to seize near monopolisticmarket shares, the net effect is

the same (18:39):
a retail arena in which size is a prerequisite,
and small companies can barelymaintain a toehold unquote.
And this was certainly true ofStarbucks for a time, uh, and
remains true of Walmart.
You know, in the case of thelatter, there's even a name for
the phenomenon, the Walmarteffect.
Uh, and we'll include a link toan excellent, uh, piece

(18:59):
published last year in theAtlantic that documents this
effect.
Just set a quick snippet, uh,from that piece.
Quote, new research suggeststhat Walmart makes the
communities it operates inpoorer, even taking into account
its famous low prices.
The theory is complex and goeslike this.
When Walmart comes to town, ituses its low prices to undercut

(19:22):
competitors and become thedominant player in a given area,
forcing local mom and popgrocers and regional chains to
slash their costs or go outtabusiness altogether.
As a result, the local farmers,bakers, and manufacturers that
once sold their goods to thosenow vanished retailers are
gradually replaced by Walmart'sarray of national and
international suppliers.

(19:43):
As a result, Wiltshire finds,uh, and this is a reference to
economist Justin Wiltshire, andon, uh, an author of one of the
studies cited in the piece, fiveyears after Walmart enters a
given county, total employmentfalls by about 3% with most of
the decline concentrated ingoods producing establishments,
unquote.
So there's strong evidence thatthis, uh, Walmart effect is real

(20:05):
and durable.
But why hasn't that been true ofStarbucks as Klein and many
others, myself included,believed very strongly would be
the case?
And here I'll quote Jacob Grier,a Portland based journalist who
wrote a piece on this topic justa couple of weeks ago for Slate.
Quoting that piece, it's funnyto look back now on the early
two thousands fear thatStarbucks would use its deep

(20:27):
pockets and market dominance towipe out in the coffee shops.
Naomi Klein's influential book,no logo compared Starbucks to
Walmart and warned that w itwould have a similarly
destructive impact on smallercompetition.
But today, Starbucks isstruggling to course correct
from a tilt towards servingglorified milkshakes and to go
orders placed via mobile app,attempting to lure customers

(20:48):
back inside with comfortableseating and ceramic mugs.
Groundbreaking ideas for the1990s as he writes.
Um, as for the indie shops,they're simply operating on
another level.
It has never been easier to findplaces making good to great
coffee all over the world,unquote.
So why hasn't Starbucks done tolocal coffee shops, what Walmart

(21:12):
has done to local retailers?
And are there lessons in thisfor people in the business of
making products?
Joachim, what do you think, youknow, why hasn't there been this
lasting Starbucks effects, thatparallels the really pernicious
Walmart effect?

Joachim (21:28):
Yeah, it's one of those, impossible questions to
answer.
Not a cop out.
I was just gonna ex I was justgonna explain because of course,
have no way of understandingwhat could have emerged in the
absence of Starbucks.
What other incredible businessescould have emerged from this?
Heterogeneous mix of shops doingall kinds of things, who knows

(21:50):
what other things could havebeen possible.
And now, to a certain extent,with the decline of Starbucks,
we're seeing a little bit morewhat's possible, especially with
the indie coffee shops.
Indie coffee shops aren't justcoffee shops, right?
I think Starbucks laid thegroundwork for sure in the way
they were pricing coffee.
That was a big deal.
And so they were making prettyexpensive cups of coffee.
Everyone knew that they couldhave a coffee for a fraction of

(22:10):
that price at home.
So they created that margin andthat big buffer.
Um, and as Jeff Bezos liked tosay, but in a different, with a
different kind of conclusion, hesays, your margin is my
opportunity.

Ernest (22:25):
Hmm.

Joachim (22:25):
Um, uh, in Bezos's case, as we know, that meant
just I could undercut you

Ernest (22:30):
Mm-hmm.

Joachim (22:31):
if you have that fat margin, I can eat into it and I
can start undercut you.
the indie coffee shops probablyrealize actually that margin is
that's gonna help us because wecan use that extra buffer to do
a little bit more and elevatewhat's going on.
So I think that allowed them tofirst buy better beans, focus on
different types of roasts,experiments a bit more, start

(22:53):
roasting themselves, startforming these relationships
themselves and educating.
The customers to not want thesame coffee all the time.
I think that was also part ofthe deal that you would be used
to.
And this hap, I mean, and we'realso a little bit in our bubble
of coffee, but, um, in thePacific Northwest up here.

Ernest (23:15):
Right.

Joachim (23:15):
is, you know, every coffee shop will rotate through
different roasters.
They'll rotate through differentregions.
Um, and of course there's hugevariety in the, the flavor
profiles.
Uh, like this is, I'm, I'm gonnahave to listen back to myself
discussing coffee and edit this.
I, enjoying this moment, but Ialso hate what I sound like
right now.

(23:35):
But it's true.
They're so different.
You know, Colombian coffee andKenyan coffee, Ethiopia coffee,
these are radically differentbeans and they have such
different flavor profiles.
I think that margin thatStarbucks created, um, allowed
mix of coffee companies toemerge and it's really changed
the way the coffee industryoperates.
I mean, as a result of, theindie coffee scene, I think the

(23:59):
role of the coffee futures isfar less important now.
Coffee

Ernest (24:04):
Hmm.

Joachim (24:04):
are being fully commoditizing beans, and then
creating these futures marketswhere you can insure against,
uh, hedge against price risk,right?
So you're gonna try and lock incontracts today and try and
price things appropriatelybecause you want no uncertainty
in the system.
You just want to get thesebeans, get'em roasted, and then
get them to the coffee shops asquickly as possible.

(24:26):
for specialty coffee makers,that's not part of the

Ernest (24:30):
Right.

Joachim (24:30):
They're like, whatever the farmer has, that's what will
we do.
And they, and we will roast itwith care and it will taste
great.
So.
The customers of indie coffeeshops are used to variability,
variety, and are okay with that,you know, and they're okay with
some beans only being availablefor a short period of time and
not there being a full harvest.
To just draw a small tangent toanother point, natural wine has

(24:53):
also gone to that has, you know,wine with its traject movement
towards natural wine has alsoembraced this idea that
certainty and homogeneity is notgood all the time.

Ernest (25:05):
All right.

Joachim (25:05):
it's great, but we want that variety.
And so things fluctuating andmoving around with the seasons.
People enjoy these things inthese very, um, essential
experiences like taste andflavor.
So I think kind of, these arethe characteristics of an
industry that does not lenditself to commodification

(25:26):
commoditization.
Starbucks's business model,which is exactly like the
Walmart business model ishomogeneity.
Commodification of everythingand trying to micromanage and
turn everything into like anoptimization problem for the
coffee shop.
We will build a machine.
It's fully automated, it's gonnaknock off two minutes from the

(25:48):
pro uh, production time of acoffee, and that way we'll be
able to drive volume and blah,blah, blah, blah, blah.
Like, like factory work is likemaking widgets.
But the initial appeal ofStarbucks was idea of the third
place and all of

Ernest (26:00):
Mm-hmm.

Joachim (26:00):
know, they were doing it in this dinky way, but for a
lot of towns, that was the firstversion of that.
And so it was a, experience forthem.
So I think, you know, theyeducated people, they created
the margin Starbucks.
fundamentally, this is a productthat does not lend itself to

(26:20):
commodification.
It

Ernest (26:22):
Hmm.

Joachim (26:22):
that is very inherent to the local community and what
the people want.
And most coffee shops are tryingto match that.
Walmart is a, what are theyselling, like packaged goods.
Like by definition those arepackaged and they're homogeneous
I need to like eke out everyefficiency in the supply chain
as as much as possible, you knowI mean, people build trucks,

(26:45):
especially for Walmart, they candictate the fuel efficiency
requirements for trucks becausethey're such big customers and
they control this market and youknow, to an incredible extent.
um, it's difficult to competeagainst the Walmart because they
have this machinery and thatmachinery is what gives them
margin and allows them tocompress way, way down, way

(27:10):
lower than anyone else.
They have these economies ofscale for this consumer packaged
good.
And so I think that's part ofthe, the variance between
Walmart and Starbucks.
tried to mimic that and itworked to a certain extent.
then, know, you become, you aretrying to sell this warm feeling

Ernest (27:30):
Hmm.

Joachim (27:30):
a vibe of a third place.
And people will then realizeafter a while when there are 20
of them within a square mile, isno vibe.
This is all manufactured and weare very sensitive to that, I
think as human beings about theenergy of, of a place.
And I think being anti Starbucksbecame an identity.

(27:50):
And then these independentcoffee shops were there.

Ernest (27:53):
Mm-hmm.

Joachim (27:53):
And this was your way of actually.
Participating through yourconsumption in some sort of
activism, the laziest form ofactivism that there is.
But nevertheless, it did shift alot of things inside of the
coffee culture.
So these are the kind of theingredients that I was looking
at, you know, when we startedtalking about this episode and I
was like, ah, this may be easy,but then you did the Walmart

(28:15):
comparison.
That got me really thinking, andI was like, what is it that
these things should translate?
But I think that's exactly oneof the lessons there.
It's like, is this one of thosespaces where I just need to
shift a widget from one place toanother place?
And once I've done that, it'sthe same freaking thing and it
doesn't matter.
Like there's no vibe.
It's a box store, right?.

(28:36):
But what about you, Annis?
Have you, do you have anotherangle on this?
Uh, the Walmart effect and, andthe Starbucks effect.

Ernest (28:44):
Well, uh, for me it's a facet of what you've already
talked about in terms of the,um, the desire to move away from
these homogenous environments.
Um, I came across, uh, anarticle from, um, a publication
called The Week.
Uh, and it was actually anarticle they published just last
month that was titled Why HighStreet Coffee Chains May Have

(29:05):
Had Their Day.
And this was, uh, you know, asthe title suggest is based out
of the uk and because they weretalking about Costa Coffee,
which is a big chain there,which is also struggling.
Um, and they quote, uh, SaharHashmi, who, uh, as the article
notes co-founded one ofBritain's first modern coffee
shop chains called CoffeeRepublic.
And in the article, Hashmi says,uh, quote, the real energy in

(29:28):
the market is coming from theindependence.
And specialty roasters.
There are people queuing on thestreet for a blank street coffee
because the indie style chainsare offering a lifestyle
experience, unquote.
Now, for Context, blank Streetis a coffee house chain that
actually started inWilliamsburg, Brooklyn in 2020,
but now operates, uh, almost ahundred, uh, locations across
the US and uk.

(29:49):
And, uh, this notion of offeringa lifestyle experience, it sort
of, kind of gives me the hives.
Um, but it, it is something thatcame up again, again and again
in my research into it as to thewhy.
Behind the success of local,independent coffee shops versus
the behemoths of Starbucks andCosta and et cetera.

(30:10):
Um, and interestingly, thisisn't a new discovery, right?
Uh, there was a piece I cameacross in a trade journal called
Modern Restaurant Management.
Exciting, uh, publication.
But they, uh, highlighted this,uh, opportunity as far back as
2018.
Uh, the, in this article I'mgonna quote from, they said that

(30:33):
the coffee shop industry isbooming, not just because of the
well-known coffee chains you seeon your way to work every day.
Experts state the coffeeconsumers are moving towards
artisan products and a premiumcoffee experience, which are
typically offered by indieshops.
Offering more personal service,bespoke decor, and unique
atmosphere.
Could be reasons that theindependent coffee shop is
driving over more recognizablestores that offer similar menus

(30:57):
and a replicated layout andlevel of service, unquote.
Now, another word for replicatedcould be cookie cutter or
homogenous, right?
Um, so just to the point thatyou're making and that that same
article makes anotherobservation that I thought was
pretty interesting, it notesthat, again, quoting that piece,
it can be argued that makingsignificant changes to services

(31:18):
and products for customers inthousands of stores on an
international scale is far moretime consuming and difficult
than doing the same as a singleoutlet.
As a result, this could also behelping drive traffic to
independent shops, unquote.
So, you know, again, building onthe point that you've made,
which is that that scale andeconomy of scale that's so

(31:40):
fundamental to the game plan ofthese super brands has actually
emerged as a weakness forStarbucks in the coffee space
and a strength of theindependence.
Right.
So, um, you know, I really justfacets of the same points that
you've, you've made alreadythis, um, uh, move to a more,

(32:01):
uh, unique experience and thisanti homogeneity that, um, is,
is, you know, what defines thesebig chains because that's just
kind of fundamentally how theyoperate, right?
That's the way that they canachieve the profits and scale
that they're able to achieve.

Joachim (32:18):
Yes.
It's interesting because we arehighlighting that, I think this
is something that been on mymind more and more is that the
structure or the DNA of thebusiness, which in this case was
make coffee at high scale, supercheap, take over the world
there, it almost within, thatcontains the seeds of its

(32:41):
destruction that it

Ernest (32:42):
Right.

Joachim (32:42):
it is operating in this highly homogenized environment
on a product that really isn'thomogenize because it is a
little bit of a, yeah, sorry.
It's a lifestyle thing.
Um, and I think another aspectthat's very interesting is, um,
and I shared this with you, isthe trunk fans analysis of
Starbucks's payment system.
payment system, was.

(33:03):
Very smart because it was ableto cash in hand and you
basically were using Starbuckslike your bank, right?
You're depositing money ontoyour Starbucks account, and then
you use that to pay for stuff instore.
And already creating this newparallel digital ledger ba that

(33:24):
you ledge ledger balance thatyou carry around.
The article that we, I sharewith you tr uh, about Trong fan,
we will put in the show notes,explains how some of those
unused funds can be then bookedas revenue after a certain
period of time has elapsed.
And it's a sizable amount ofmoney that is just pure profit.
It just comes in because peopleput money on their thing and
they don't use it straight away.

(33:45):
Then, um, the efficiency of thatand the fact that everyone then
started using that app to payfor things meant that the
business leaders were like, oh,this is great.
Everyone's using the app.
This is like a bureaucrat anddictatorship's dream is to have
all of these stream of data andsay, oh, if they do everything

(34:07):
through the app, we all know thecustomized drinks.
know how they're doing theirpayments.
When we know what their drinksthey want, we'll know what to
order ahead of time.
Everyone started ordering on theapp.
Everything got litigated throughthat app, and then the shop was
just a place where you picked itup.
And so what happened is that,and, and I think everyone has
noticed, if you've been to aStarbucks, maybe I went, went to

(34:29):
one last year.
I will be going soon because itis pumpkin spice latte season.
So I will be going, but thething that you notice is you
walk in, uh, and it takesforever to get your order.

Ernest (34:41):
Yeah.

Joachim (34:42):
Even though there's no line, no physical line, and you
see the digital orders line,epic.
freaking epic.
So in that drive for crazyefficiency, they have super
commoditized this, they'veturned this into a in and out
type of situation and they haveall of this square footage for

(35:02):
absolutely nothing to just havea counter there.
And so then the question becomesis do we just wanna have a
counter?
Do we not have anything else?
Is that what the brand is?
What are we doing?
You know, again, the, the seedsof what was gonna come was very
clear, like you turned it intothis hyper digital experience.
Then yes, the store isirrelevant and you are now

(35:22):
defining your strategy based onthese data streams.
That are discrete signals onwhat's happening.
And of course you're gonna missthe forest for the trees because
you're just looking at thesespecific streams.
You're missing the fact thathere's a missing data point you
won't see.
You won't see every customerwalk in, get ready to order
something and just get pissedoff that they're not getting

(35:42):
their order.
You won't see it, you won't seethe people walking in, walking
out, not understand, you know,like, why am I not getting
served?
Why is this taking so long?
All of that frustration And soof

Ernest (35:53):
Hmm.

Joachim (35:53):
I think they would miss this.
And then they're surprised wheneverything eventually starts
coming down.
Like, wait, where does, wheredid the money go?

Ernest (36:00):
Well, I think that is a really good segue into our kind
of next phase of thisconversation, which is what all
this could mean for people inthe business of making products.
So, uh, I mean, you kind ofstarted on this already, but Jo
I was just curious, do you haveany thoughts on.
How the success of independentcoffee shops versus Starbucks

(36:21):
could translate to productcreation or product strategy in
other domains.

Joachim (36:26):
Yeah.
So I'm gonna start by discussingthe work of James C.
Scott, who is a politicalscientist and anthropologist,
and who wrote a book calledSeeing Like a State.
Trust me, we're gonna get to thepoint.
But, um, James C.
Scott wrote this incredible bookhow institutions, um, have this

(36:50):
beautiful intention to achieve autopia by creating order and
rationality inside of anythingcity planning, agriculture.
Um, you know, all of thesethings have to be in the view of
the technocrat made legible.

(37:11):
They have to be turned intosomething legible.
Um, I.
So, for example, James c.
Scott's book, Seeing Like aState, starts off with an
example about scientificforestry and specifically about
Prussian forests.
And I, you know, I, I use thisexample so much, God knows if
there's an episode of one ofours where I've mentioned it
before, but, basically thePrussians in the incredible

(37:35):
drive flow efficiency, weretrying to extract and eke out
more from forestry to get moretimber.
And so what they did is they,you know.
Chop down all the forests thatwere already in existence and
they started planting trees instraight lines.
Um, with enough space betweenthe rows so that they could get

(37:57):
a horse and cart through there,chop the wood immediately loaded
onto the cart and then justdrive it through the place, and
Bobs your uncle.
It is gonna be chopping downtrees like it's no effort at
all.
Whereas before the forests wereuneven and there were all kinds
of plants and you know, it was avery diverse, um, biome.
So first couple of years thatthey do this, it is incredibly

(38:20):
successful, hugely successful.
The yields are off the charts.
Everyone's happy, rationalfarming has succeeded.
then the forest started failing'cause they had eliminated all
of the biodiversity that wasactually creating nutrients in
the ground and protecting theforest and the trees from, um,

(38:43):
insect life and stuff that wasdestroying it.
So.
Everything was gone.
There was nothing left.
And they had completely missedthe fact that there was so much
complexity the ecosystem andthey were living off that for
those few periods where theywere able to just extract
everything.
And that little rationalapproach was going really well,
they were literally planting ontop of the rich, rich nutrients,

(39:08):
soil that had been buildingthere and growing there for
generations.
And I feel like that is kind ofin a nutshell, a lot of what is
wrong with a Starbucks approachto this stuff, because these are
complex problems.
And I think you alluded to it,uh, in previously you said, you
know, having that, the scale iseverything, right?

(39:31):
But it's homogenized scale.
So how do you come up with a nonhomogenous heterogeneous scale?
That's the question, right?
So part Prussian forestries,people are trying to get
everything legible, straightlines.
If system is legible, thismachine, you push a button, it's
gonna make a latte in one go.
That's it.
We will see it.

(39:51):
We will know how many beans, howmany cups.
We'll understand.
We're gonna turn these peopleinto machines, to baristas
machines.
We're gonna track everything inthe digital app.
We're gonna know what people aredoing.
It's like all of this stuff turneverything legible.
But in the process, missing thecomplexity of the interactions
and the human moments inside ofthe space, which are not
legible, not measurable,incredibly difficult to do.

(40:14):
And so what, so this sounds allvery negative.
I'm sorry.
I'm just saying it'scomplicated, it's complex.
It's an ecosystem that doesn'tlend itself easily to legibility
and taking this hyper-rationalapproach is not gonna work.
in some sense you need to leanon something else.
And James C.
Scott also mentioned this in thebook, and uh, um, he refers to

(40:39):
this other kind of knowledge isnot.
Taken from a textbook orsomething that can be compressed
into a set of lessons in atextbook.
So James, Scott refers to thisspecial kind of knowledge,

metis (40:54):
M-E-T-I-S.
It's not techne, which is thekind of academic knowledge.
Metis is a knowledge that is,uh, created by the people who
are actually engaged in theactivity itself.
So it is knowledge that you can,you learn you accumulate by
doing the task and living insideof the complexity of that task.

(41:20):
Metis is that thing that isreally, really hard to quantify.
Your people metis.
And I think you notice that likeif you go to a Starbucks, that's
nice.
There are people that they,they're engaged in the, the work
and they engage with thecommunity.
They know people and they'rekind of actually in some sense,
in a very subversive way,breaking free of the constraints

(41:40):
that Starbucks would like to puton them.

Ernest (41:42):
Hmm.

Joachim (41:42):
They're having a chat that's taking their time,
they're talking to the person.
All these things at anindependent coffee shop builds
everything on top of that.
So metis is the thing.
People who are in that localitywill understand it, and I don't
think there's a way to, andespecially in the coffee shop
world, have this ho homogeneous,commodified thing.

(42:04):
You need to let the localknowledge speak up

Ernest (42:09):
Hmm.

Joachim (42:10):
and you need to allow those people who know what's
going on in that locality decidea lot more about what should
happen in that coffee shop.
No.
So giving the local shops thatautonomy to also shape that
store the way they want it to bewill kind of give you a little
bit of that independent mamagic.
And I think there is a lot ofmagic in everyone's knowledge

(42:32):
percolating through the system.
So, like another thing torealize is if you are running a
business and the only way yourun your business is one way,
you will not know where you'regoing wrong.
No one in the Starbucks headoffice can say, oh, those
Starbucks places in Idaho arerunning differently and they're

(42:53):
weathering quite a seriousstorm.
It's because we've allowed themto figure something else out,
right?
So I'm not saying that everyonedoing their own thing will lead
to success, but it will give youthe heterogeneity and the
diversity of ideas that you canthen learn to refine and say,
okay, that's the thing thatworks for now.
Okay?
But if everyone continues to bein that explore mode, the head

(43:14):
office, this corporate structurecan be there picking up all of
these signals and saying, oh, wesee it now, it's there.
This is a pattern.
We can pass this to the otherplaces, or not.
Maybe it only works in theseregions, maybe it only works
there.
But the idea that there's onlyone way of doing Starbucks:
that's what kills you.

Ernest (43:32):
Hmm.

Joachim (43:33):
monoculture.
There's no biodiversity andthere's no metis in that.
But there's a perfect example ofthis right now that's happening,
started in the UK and is nowspreading back into the us.
Um, Waterstones was a very largebook chain that for a period was
incredibly dominant.
then they started facingtrouble.

(43:54):
They had a ton, very similar to,uh, the typical commodification
scale model.
I just need to get the booksinto the shop, you know, I just
need to get the top sellersbooks.
That's it.
Just give everyone Tom Clancy,Michael Crichton, you know, like
just keep feeding that stuff.
That stuff sells.

(44:14):
And every bookshop was the same.
So all you could hope for isthat you know when your
bookshops are far away enough,they become like just the local
monopolists and then no one willever cross over.
But there's also no reason toever be if you go to another
part of town, look in thebookshop

Ernest (44:29):
Hmm.

Joachim (44:30):
it's just gonna be the same crap.
So, um, private equity outfitbought them out, bought out
Waterstones, and they brought ina new CEO who was the founder of
Daunt Books, which is a smallNotting Hill bookshop.
And he had a few other shops.
And so he started changing theWaterstones model and he
basically said every shop shouldbe allowed to pick its own

(44:51):
stock, and decide what the localcommunity would like to have.
They can also change theinterior, the decorations,
things that go in the window,like literally de-homogenizing
the whole thing.
It shouldn't be that you go intoevery waterstone shop and you
know what you're getting.
The Starbucks model was I gointo every Starbucks and it's
the same freaking coffee andthat's what we're gonna give
you.

(45:12):
It's exactly what you want, andit's never gonna be anything
different.
The variety is missing.
So Waterstones has been able toweather many storms, including
the onslaught from Amazon

Ernest (45:20):
Hmm.

Joachim (45:21):
they have these local shops that are all different and
can, and can respond flexibly tothe incoming signals that they
just see by interacting withcustomers and finding out what's
going on.
They've also come back toAmerica and he is now involved
in the Barnes and Noble,

Ernest (45:38):
Mm.
Right.

Joachim (45:39):
reset.
And part of that reset is whathe is telling him is like trying
to build the muscle for thelocal shops to figure out what
works there.
And so there's something inthat, right?
There's something in that.
I'm not, we don't know howsuccessful this is gonna be, but
there's definitely something tobe said about shouldn't we be
letting places figure stuff outthemselves and then we gather
the full set of thepossibilities.

Ernest (45:58):
Hmm.

Joachim (45:59):
Starbucks only only knows one thing and that's why
their business plan looks thesame.
So anyway, that was a very longexcursion, but I do think
there's something to be said fora decentralized, um, collective
intelligence approach to theproblem.
And also giving those, give yourpeople the power to do these
things.
If you do that, I guarantee youlot of people will happily work

(46:21):
and invest in that company ifthey feel pride in this is their
store and we're doing thingsdifferently and other people can
learn from us if we figuresomething out.
I mean, there's something to besaid that each coffee shop
becomes its own lab.
So, yeah.
That's kind of my big, big, bigtake to, to all of this.

Ernest (46:40):
I, I think it's interesting you mentioned
Waterstones'cause um, uh, thebook space is another product
category where independentbookstores have been on the rise
for over a decade now.
I think there's a pretty gooddata on this and I thought that
was a pretty interestingexample.
Example, because you could saythat at a fundamental level,

(47:04):
books are commodities'causethey're selling the same books
that you can get on Amazon.
Right.
But it's purely that experience,partly the assortment.
Right.
You know, as an independentbookstore, you're gonna bring in
books that you think arerelevant to your community.
But I think it's kind of, toyour point, so much of it is
that.
Meet us.
That experience of someone comesin and says, Hey, I've read

(47:26):
this, what else might I like?
And that wisdom that is in thatperson, you know, that staffer
there, um, that gives you thatnext great book that you're
gonna read and you wouldn't havediscovered if it weren't for
that you uniquely humanexperience and that uniquely
human wisdom that's in thatstaffer that you interacted

(47:47):
with.
So, um, I think it, I mean itgives me, um, a lot of optimism,
right?
To, to say that, okay, yes, thisWalmart effect is very real and
it's impacted lots of kind oftraditional retailers, but there
are categories where.
That effect doesn't apply, that,you know, this anti homogeneity

(48:10):
is a kind of superpower, uh,that you can tap into.
I think toy stores are anothercategory where, you know, the
toys are us effectively has goneoutta business.
The brand still exist, but as ashell of its former self and
independent toy stores are, youknow, on the rise.
So I think there's lots ofexamples of it.
Uh, the, the piece of this thatI wanted to highlight is very

(48:32):
similar to your point in thatfundamentally it's rooted in the
complexities of humanity.
But, um, the angle on it is forme, in terms of product
creation.
I think from what I've seen, themost important thing you could
do if you're a person that'skind of working in this area of
creating products is to have apoint of view, to have a, an

(48:55):
individual human distinct pointof view.
And then.
To create products that are, uh,an outgrowth of that.
But that point of view is whatcomes first.
You know, I think it's just notenough for your product today to
simply be the sum of itsfeatures, right?
Like the bullet points that aregonna be on your product
description page.

Joachim (49:13):
Yeah.

Ernest (49:14):
Um, it has to be an expression of, or an enabler of
a culture.
Um, I think that might lead to aquestion of right then what is,
what is culture, right?
My.
Favorite, the favoritedefinition I've come across
that's, I think really nice andconcise comes from a book
titled, um, funnily enough,personality Disorders and
Culture.

(49:35):
Uh, I'll provide a link to it,but, um, the authors submit
that, uh, I'm quoting them here.
Culture is a set of meanings,behavioral norms and values used
by members of a particularsociety as they construct their
unique view of the world,unquote.
I think that's a greatdefinition of culture,
particularly in the context ofwhat we're talking about here

(49:55):
and creating products, uh, thatare the product of a culture.
Um, I think another way ofthinking about this is instead
of approaching product creationthrough a traditional product
marketing or product managementlens, where our product, uh, our
primary deliverable is a set ofproduct requirements captured in
a very dull, dry brief that noone wants to read.

(50:16):
Um, I think there's a need todayfor people like us to think and
operate more like.
A novelist or a filmmaker, youknow, we need to articulate a
vision of a world that we wantto occupy, you know, a world as
we want it to be.
And then offer a vision for aproduct that makes that world
real for our, our customers,right?
That, that, you know, allowsthem to kind of, um, touch that

(50:39):
world in a concrete way.
Um, and you know, I know thismight sound very grandiose, uh,
but I think it is a key factorin the success of Indie Coffee
shops, of indie bookstores, andof some of the most popular
product brands today.
And one example that comes tomind in the running space, um,
for someone you know, who thinksa lot about running, is a French

(51:00):
brand called Satisfy.
Have you ever heard of satisfy?

Joachim (51:03):
No, I have

Ernest (51:04):
Yeah, there's, there's still, you know, not, uh,
mainstream, but, um, so, youknow, for anyone who isn't
familiar with the brand outsideof piece from Esquire that was
published last year, so quotingthis article, satisfy arrived in
2015.
It was a running brand with a, adifference influenced just as
much by founder Bryce Particlove of music and fashion as it

(51:26):
was performance and ability and,uh, peritus French.
And so the brand is based out ofFrance.
When Satisfied launched itsuniqueness was something that
made it stand out amidst theathletic core that had dominated
the running sphere.
Nike was the largest supplier inmanufacturer of athletic shoes
and apparel at the time, with a22.9% market share.
While many traditional sportsbrands marketed running as an

(51:48):
act of self-discipline andcompetitiveness, satisfy
challenge that, uh, and this isquoting, uh, partier, it was
obvious that the problem wasn't,that there was no running
culture.
But the running culture had tobe rebranded.
S partish of the time.
If you wanna inspire people torun, you need to connect with
them through content, throughproducts, through storytelling.

(52:10):
And no one was doing that.
Now, now speaking to the impactthey've had, um, they've doubled
their revenue year on year toabout 12 million euros in their
most recent fiscal year.
And they are confident thatthey're gonna be able to
multiply revenue tenfold withinfive years.
They've just shown massivegrowth.
And, um, I'll include a link tosatisfies website as well as,

(52:30):
uh, that Esquire piece in ourshow notes.
And, um, if you follow runningit all, I think you'll, you'll
have seen how directly thebigger brands have, um, let's
say borrowed from the designlanguage established by Satisfy.
Uh, but what they haven'tmanaged to mimic is satisfies
culture.
And again, um, you know, we'vekind of touched on this because

(52:50):
expressing an authenticdistinct, and.
A distinctly human point of viewis just antithetical to the
nature of the global mega brandsbecause they crave the scale
that's enabled and you know, isnecessarily odine, right?
Because if you want to createthe same experience across a

(53:11):
thousand stores around theworld, it's got, it's not gonna
be distinct, right?
Just as you've, you've said,right, you're gonna get this,
um, monocultural sort ofexperience and satisfy is the
antithesis of that.
And you'll see that in theirproducts.
And runners have felt that, and,you know, they've really been
drawn to it.

(53:31):
Um, another example I'll sayjust briefly is Cascio's GShock
brand.
And I, I'm fairly certain we'vediscussed our mutual admiration
for GShock, um, in the past.
In fact, I actually recentlypurchased a model from their
Frogman line.
Uh, I dunno if you could seethis here, Jo.

Joachim (53:46):
Ooh, I'm sorry.
I got excited.
It looks great.

Ernest (53:50):
Uh, I, I love it and I, I hope to own it for the rest of
my days.
Um, now GShock is part of Casio,which is a long established
multinational brand, uh,company, and yet as, as many a
Waner will happily tell you,GShock is the brainchild of an
individual and engineer named,uh, Kiku eBay, who came up with

(54:11):
the concept of this impossiblytough watch way back in 1981,
and remains active in productplanning for GShock and is still
very much a kind of the face ofthe brand.
And I think you could feel that,you know, it feels like it's
something that comes from aperson or set of crazy people,
right?
Um.
And, and I looked up Cassie'sannual report for their most

(54:33):
recent fiscal year, and theyhighlighted GShock as a bright
spot, even in the face of, youknow, really powerful economic
headwinds that they and everyonein the industry, um, is facing.
And you know, actually it wasreally interesting'cause one
model in particular that wasside cited in their most recent,
uh, annual report, um, as beinga particularly strong performer,

(54:53):
was their GA-V01 collection.
All their model lines arecompletely, uh, in inscrutable,
but it's better known within thewatch community as alien eyes.
And, uh, I, you can't describeit.
So I'll include a link to theAlien Eyes product page, um, uh,
at, yeah, at the G Shockwebsite.

(55:14):
Jo just held it up and you'llsee that it's the absolute
antithesis of a mainstreamgeneric product.
Uh, and then if you were to goto their Frogman page, you'd see
that that collection, there'sabsolutely no resemblance to
alien eyes.
Because it, it remains, youknow, it does remain true to
that impossibly tough G-SHOCKethos, both alien eyes and

(55:35):
Frogman—everything G-SHOCK does,remains true to that.
But all of their collections dothat in ways that are true to
the distinct cultures that, uh,G-SHOCK has managed to cultivate
around these differentcollections.
Um, so I thought that that wasjust a great example of
delivering on this idea throughproduct.

Joachim (55:55):
Hmm.

Ernest (55:55):
know, we've talked about different ways of delivering on
it through experience, but Ithink SATISFY and, uh, G-SHOCK
show that you can do it throughproduct as well.
And, uh, I think G-SHOCK inparticular is, um, one of the,
perhaps the best example I canthink of, at least, of a brand
that's kind of world buildingaround their product lines in a
really, really effective way,and has consistently managed to

(56:17):
do that.

Joachim (56:18):
I think it's something also about, uh, the story of how
the design of the G Shot cameabout.
I mean, are pictures of theoriginal prototype and it, I
think it's, he just took aCassio Quartz digital Watch
movement with its screen andjust duct tape stuff around it,
and then start throwing out awindow and then testing if it

(56:39):
could survive the fall.
And like, what would it take todo that?
You know?
And there's something about thatthat makes people feel that it's
very relatable,

Ernest (56:48):
Yeah.

Joachim (56:49):
and it, and the, the technology and it is.
It's not magic, so yeah, I thinkthat's a great example to
highlight.
Yeah, it's so tangible

Ernest (56:58):
Uh, that's great.
I, I, this has been a greatconversation that I think we
could probably go on for hours

Joachim (57:03):
as

Ernest (57:04):
about it.
But, uh, now that you've heardour perspective, we wanna hear
from you.
Please share your thoughts,questions or corrections, uh,
with us at Learn Makelearn@gmail.com or on threads at
Learn, make, learn show, all oneword.
Alright, now let's move on toour recommendations of the week.

(57:26):
Do you have any recommendationsyou'd like to share?

Joachim (57:29):
Normally I just launch into the recommendation and then
we have a conversation.
And I, for the first time in along time, I mentioned the
recommendation before we startedrecording to Earnest, and then
it is one of the few times wedidn't agree on this TV show.
I was like, we have such a goodhit rate.
We, we generally agree and yourrecommendations when I take it,
when I watch something like thisis so good.

(57:50):
I'm so happy I took it.
Anyway, we both watched this,but somehow came away with very
different responses.
But, um, uh, we've been enjoyingAlien Earth.
Um, and it's finished now.
So if you wanna save money, thisis the perfect time.
Take out a Hulu subscription,immediately cancel it just binge
it.
It's only eight episodes.

(58:11):
Um, yeah, we were, we were partof the, the weekly cadence
watching crew.
So I think that also creates theanticipation and is very
different than I think watchingit in one go.

Ernest (58:22):
Right.

Joachim (58:22):
um.
Alien Earth is, well, it's a TVshow that's built around the
alien franchise, excluding theweird Alien versus Predator
franchises.
Uh, which is a crazy time, huh?
People could do all that stuff,full on mashup.
But, uh, this is like, insidethe lineage, I would say,

(58:45):
between a, the Alien movie andaliens are kind of still Canon
in this Alien.
Three is a little bit Mm, alittle bit far away from where
we are now, but, The concept ispretty straightforward.
Uh, we are witness to aspaceship that's been traveling
in deep space, crashing ontoEarth.

(59:07):
Earth has been divided up by afew corporations, five of them,
I think, right?
Is

Ernest (59:11):
Yeah.

Joachim (59:11):
and

Ernest (59:11):
Right.

Joachim (59:12):
so we know the Wayland d Tiny corporation already as
the corporation that's alwayshovering around in the
background with these aliensalways out to try and use it for
the weapons division and etcetera.
Polarizer character being theperfect example of that in the
Aliens movie, where he iswilling to kill everyone to just
get these aliens.
So, now the whale and Euan shipcrashes, um, in the prodigy part

(59:34):
of the world, which is anothercompany run by a genius child or
gen, young genius man.
Um.
And so now they have access toall of these aliens.
Um, one of the aliens is, uh, ofcourse the xenomorph, famous
Xenomorph, and then a host ofother strange aliens that are,
you know, this.

(59:54):
So I, I enjoyed the show.
It, it has, um, a lot ofinteresting elements.
The first couple of episodesfeel like traditional alien ish,
you know, a little bit of thebody shock and weirdness of the
aliens and the creepiness andcreepy dark spaceships and
walking around, which is prettysmart to start off with that.

(01:00:15):
And then the story shifts to avery different place where the
aliens are actually all in alab.
I'm not giving anything awayreally.

Ernest (01:00:22):
Hmm.

Joachim (01:00:22):
like they're just in a lab.
And I found what was verycompelling is that the true
horror is not really thosecreatures.

Ernest (01:00:28):
Hmm.

Joachim (01:00:28):
actually the human beings that are running all of
these experiments and playingaround with all kinds of things
that they really shouldn't beplaying around with.
So, um, the beginning of the,um, show we learn about Child
who's about 12, who is gonna bepart of an experiment.
She's terminally ill and they'regoing to transfer her
consciousness into a syntheticbody.
So she is going to be human mindmachine, robot body.

(01:00:53):
Um, and so she becomes our proprotagonist, our guide through
this world.
um, the first of a kind and thenfive other children, sick of
other children join her.
So we have these little childrenminds locked in, robot bodies
that look like adults, um, whichI think was pretty clever

(01:01:16):
because.
One of the things that, uh,happens in a lot of dumb horror
movies is adults make lots ofvery, very bad choices about
where they should stick theirheads and stick their fingers.
And in this case, it's fine.
They're children, they don'tknow what they're doing, they
just happen to be an adult boy.
So you can get away with a lotof stupidity.
It's kind of a clever way ofbeing, but then it opens up all
kinds of other questions Ithought were really interesting.

(01:01:36):
And, um, there's a lot of thingswhere you think the tv the show
is gonna go one way and it justgoes into a very different
direction.
Um, so I enjoyed it.
My wife, who is a big fan of theAlien movie, which is one of the
few

Ernest (01:01:52):
Hmm.

Joachim (01:01:52):
movies she's ever, I mean, is a horror movie.

Ernest (01:01:54):
Yeah.

Joachim (01:01:55):
that she's watched, um, was initially not interested in
watching it.
We actually started.
I was already about fourepisodes in and I just said, I
want to finish this fourthepisode.
Uh, and she just was readingand, you know, looking up and
Wow, what's this all about?
And then she got so engaged, shesaid, I have to go back to the
beginning.
I'm gonna watch all theseepisodes and I'm gonna catch up.

(01:02:16):
And then she was fully immersedin the show.
So, um, it was very good.
And also, I have to say, greatperformance, um, from Sidney
Chandler, who is Kyle Chandler's

Ernest (01:02:25):
Yeah.

Joachim (01:02:25):
Nepo baby.
But she

Ernest (01:02:27):
Hmm.

Joachim (01:02:27):
really great job being this child on her way to
adulthood and seeing the crueltyof the adult world, um, and the
manipulations and games thatpeople play to accomplish
whatever they wanna do.
And also Timothy Olefin as asynthetic.
just great.
I just loved, I think that'ssomething, I think it's the
acting that really did it forme.
I really enjoyed thosecharacters.
And then some dumb moments,obviously,'cause it's kind of a

(01:02:50):
dumb film, dumb TV show in someways.
But, and this really could havebeen a train wreck, this show I
think as well.
It's like I have, I'm a big fanof the, the, the world of Alien
and I've watched all of theother ones and Prometheus and
Covenant.
My god, these are terrible.
But I still, I still have a, awarm place for them.
So I had low expectations.

(01:03:13):
I mean, I watched The Alienversus Predator ones.
I mean, come

Ernest (01:03:16):
Yeah, I know.
I've seen, well, hey, Adrian.
Brody's in it, right?
It's

Joachim (01:03:20):
oh,

Ernest (01:03:21):
Oscar winning actor.

Joachim (01:03:22):
Oh my God.
Is he in one of those?
Oh no, he's in predators, isn'the?
Isn't that the one

Ernest (01:03:26):
Uh,

Joachim (01:03:27):
he's.

Ernest (01:03:27):
I thought he was in one of the crossover ones.

Joachim (01:03:30):
He might have been as well, poor man if he is.
But I don't know.
I would watch, uh, the Alienversus Predator crossover with
Adrian Brody over the brutalist,controversial opinion.
I don't care.
Um, but yeah, I would recommend,I recommend now it's easy'cause
you can watch all

Ernest (01:03:45):
Right?
Right.

Joachim (01:03:46):
I have to also say, I think what did it for me was, I
think at the end of the secondepisode, there's always like, at
the end of each episode is thiseither late nineties, early two
thousands metal that usuallyplays as like the, the outro

Ernest (01:03:58):
Mm-hmm.

Joachim (01:03:59):
Uh, and I think in the second episode, uh, tool song
plays, that

Ernest (01:04:04):
Hmm.

Joachim (01:04:04):
one of my favorite songs when I was growing up as a
teenage.
And it was the first time I'veever seen tool music featured in
popular culture.
I don't

Ernest (01:04:13):
Hmm.

Joachim (01:04:13):
they would give out their music for, I don't think
they've done it ever in thepast.
Their stuff never is onsoundtracks.
So I was like, oh, that'sinteresting that they were
willing to put their thing onthere.
And it was, you know, done verytastefully.
So I was quite impressed.

Ernest (01:04:27):
Hmm.

Joachim (01:04:28):
yeah.
But you had moments with it.
You, you, you got quite farthough, Ernest and then said,
I'm done.

Ernest (01:04:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, I liked it.
Uh, I disliked it so much that Icanceled my Hulu account, but,
uh, I, although that said therewas, um, a scene in that, it was
either the third or fourthepisode that really has stuck
with me, um, where an adult ishaving a conversation with this
group of kids in these adultsynthetic bodies and makes this

(01:04:53):
off-handed comment, uh,something to the effect of, oh,
there used to be this thingcalled democracy.
Where governments were, uh,ruled by pe, you know, the
people, and they decided whowould govern.
And, but that didn't work.
So now we have these megacorporations that rule the
world.
And it was just, it stuck withme because it's so terrifyingly

(01:05:14):
plausible.
I, I guess, you know, now morethan ever.
So I, yeah, I do think therewere some interesting ideas in
it.

Joachim (01:05:21):
Yeah, that.
I think that's it.
There are some interestingideas.
Maybe not every episode is likethe, the tightest storytelling
and the most, you know, welldeveloped everything.
But definitely has a, yeah, ithas a place somewhere out

Ernest (01:05:34):
Hmm.

Joachim (01:05:34):
so if you, if you need something to fill some void, I
wouldn't push it too hard, butit's, it was very enjoyable.

Ernest (01:05:42):
my recommendation actually is also media.
Um, I was going to again, cheata little bit enough for kind of
one and a half.
So first, have you heard of thisfilm, one battle after another?
This PT Anderson film?

Joachim (01:05:54):
heard of it.
I have not seen it yet.

Ernest (01:05:56):
Yes, I would absolutely recommend it.
It's, it's not my favorite filmthat I've seen this year.
I think, uh, to paraphrase, uh,kind of a joke about acting,
it's maybe not the best film,but it's the most film.
Uh, I know a lot of peoplethough, would argue and say that
it is the best film of the year.
I think it certainly brings up alot of really, um, important,

(01:06:18):
meaningful topics and in a waythat's very entertaining.
I think that's the thing that'scaught a lot of people off
guard, and that is sort of an,you know, quote unquote
important movie, and yet managesto deliver these messages in a
way that's incrediblyentertaining.
and actually I think skewersboth sides, of this kind of

(01:06:40):
cultural, debate that we're in,uh, in the US these days.
You know, certainly skewers theright, but also has a lot of,
uh, commentary about the leftand then the ridiculousness of
the left as well.
So, I, yeah, I think it'sabsolutely worth seeing is in
the kind of praise it's gettingis well deserved.
But the film I really wanted torecommend is what is so far my

(01:07:01):
favorite film of the year, whichis a movie called The Battle,
I'm sorry, battle, the Ballad ofWallis Island.
Um, it's, uh,

Joachim (01:07:11):
the naked gun, but that's okay.

Ernest (01:07:14):
I've been wanting to see that.
I haven't seen it actually, but,um, so the Ballad of Wallis
Island is this very small film,uh, debuted at, Sundance in
January of this year.
Had a very limited theatricalrelease in the, in the us um, in
the spring.
Most people hadn't even heard ofit, let alone have seen it, but
it was directed by JamesGriffiths.

(01:07:34):
And, written by Tim Key and TomBasden and they star in it, uh,
alongside, Carey Mulligan, who Ijust am a huge fan of.
It's kind of an interesting filmin that, um, it was originally a
short, that Tim Key and TomBasden created way back in 2007.
And you could see it on YouTube.
I actually would not recommendwatching it until after you've

(01:07:56):
seen the, the movie.
And if you watch it, you'll seethat the bones of it are all
there.
But, um, I thought they, theydid an amazing job expanding it
and enriching it.
I think it's just such a lovelyfilm.
It's the sort of film that atleast personally I've, I just
really needed in these times.
it's a very human story and itdoesn't necessarily go where at

(01:08:17):
least I expected it to go.
It's sort of like a romanticcomedy ish, but it doesn't, fall
on the kind of romantic comedytropes.
I ended up purchasing it, um,through the Apple, whatever it's
called now.
It used to be called the iTunesStore.
Now it's Apple TV store orwhatever.

Joachim (01:08:38):
yeah.

Ernest (01:08:39):
you can rent it as well, but, um, I, I purchased it in,
I'm really glad I did'cause it'sa movie that I definitely know
I'm gonna come back to, um, inyears to come.
My wife really enjoyed it aswell.
So the Ballad of Wallis Island,is a film I'd strongly recommend
if you want something that willkind of make you feel better

(01:09:02):
about humanity.
I think

Joachim (01:09:04):
Oh

Ernest (01:09:04):
it, yeah, I think it's a great one to watch.

Joachim (01:09:07):
yeah, I haven't heard of it at all.
It's crazy.
Yeah, and it's a pretty, I mean,Carey Mulligan's a pretty, a
pretty big big star, so

Ernest (01:09:15):
yeah, she's, she's by far the biggest star in it.
Um, but, uh, Tim Key, I guesswhat I'd say is probably the
main character and he's just, ohGod, I, he's a comedian and, um.
His, style I think is justfantastic.
And then Tom Basden is a singerand he does his, the singing in

(01:09:35):
the, in the film.
He's, he's meant to be a singerin the film, and I was really
shocked.
I thought he was phenomenal as asinger.
and, uh, Carey Mulgan actuallydoes, uh, singing some singing
in the film as well.

Joachim (01:09:47):
uh, so Tim Key, I know Tim Key from, uh, this TV show
called Screenwipe,

Ernest (01:09:53):
Yeah.

Joachim (01:09:54):
which was done by Charlie Brooker.
The writer and creator of BlackMirror,

Ernest (01:09:58):
Right.

Joachim (01:09:59):
everyone knows Black Mirror now.
Um, but he used to host this BBCshow that was him consuming
media and, uh, skewering it in,in many ways.
Very clever, very funny.
Um, it was the only comedy showthat was on BBC four, which is
like the highbrow part of theBBC channel selection.

(01:10:21):
Um, but so he would always havethese very strange
intermissions., But Tim Keywould read poetry as himself on
this show, and it was, it wasalways so bizarre.
It didn't, it was trying to talkabout current events, he was
also making fun of people beingso, you know, pretentious and so
serious and, know, trying tomake a statement with poetry.

(01:10:44):
He played it so straight and sowell, it was for a while I
thought, is is he actually a, anannoying poet and they just
happened to put him on thisshow.
He's very good though.
So from that I always like ifyou, as soon as you said Tim Key
I thought it can't be the same,Tim.
It is, it is

Ernest (01:10:57):
Oh, that's great.
Yeah.

Joachim (01:10:59):
yeah, he's quite baby faced, so

Ernest (01:11:01):
Yeah.

Joachim (01:11:02):
yeah.

Ernest (01:11:02):
Oh, if you like Tim Key, I think you'll really like this
us

Joachim (01:11:05):
All right.
Well, I have to check this out.

Ernest (01:11:08):
Well.
All right.
I think, um, that does it forus.
Thank you so much for joining ushere at Learn Make Learn.
And as I mentioned earlier, wewanna hear from you.
whether it's a request, aquestion, or an observation,
please do share your thoughtswith us at Learn Make
learn@gmail.com or on threads atLearn, make, learn show, all one
word.
As for our next episode, uh, Idon't want to reveal any details

(01:11:31):
quite yet, but we're working tocoordinate an interview that
we're really excited about.
so keep your fingers crossed forus.
That will, the planets willalign.
And please do join us for thenext Learn, make, learn.
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