Time to Learn

Episode Transcript
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Ernest (00:04):
Hello and welcome to Learn Make Learn where we share
qualitative and quantitativeperspectives on products to help
you make better.
My name is Ernest Kim and I'mjoined by my friend and co host
Joachim Groeger.
Hey Joachim, how's it going?

Joachim (00:19):
I'm good.
Hello, Ernest.
It's been very uneventful, soI'm quite happy with that.
Um, some colds here and thereyet again, but what can you do
when you have small children inschool?
There's not much you just haveto deal with, deal with those
things.
It feels like, I just realizedlast week I mentioned lice.
This week I haven't mentionedanything that gross, but you
know, it feels like spring ishere in the Pacific Northwest,

(00:41):
which is very nice.
I'm very Yeah, how have thingsbeen for you, Ernest?

Ernest (00:48):
Yeah, things are good.
You know, we finally got ourskylight fixed.
So that was uh,

Joachim (00:53):
Oh, well done.

Ernest (00:54):
it's a relief to get that over with.
Um, and you know, same herewhere it's been great to finally
see some sun.
and uh, things blooming.
It's definitely been

Joachim (01:04):
Oh yeah, very true.

Ernest (01:07):
right, well, this is episode 13 and today our topic
is lessons in time.
With the Watches and Wonderstrade show just around the
corner, Joachim and I are goingto indulge in our shared
enthusiasm for wristwatches, butthose of you who have no
interest at all in watches.
Please hang with us because thiswon't just be an episode for

(01:28):
watch geeks.
We think the watch industryoffers interesting lessons that
go well beyond the world ofhorology.
For starters, it's been decadessince anyone's actually needed a
watch to tell the time.
And many predicted that thelaunch of Apple watch in 2015
would put the final nail in thecoffin of the watch industry,
but Swiss watch exports aloneare up to Nearly 16 percent

(01:49):
since 2015 and this doesn'tinclude the booming secondary
market for watches, which isprojected to reach 85 billion in
value within the next decade.
So why do so many people seem sowilling to pay so much for
something that none of us needsand what lessons from the watch
world can we apply to productcreation more broadly?

(02:12):
These are the topics we're goingto dig into in this episode.
now, we usually start withfollow ups to our previous
episode, but given today'stopic, I thought we might change
things up and adopt a custompopular with watch podcasters,
which is to start with a quoteunquote wrist check.
That is to say by highlightingthe watch that's on our wrists

(02:34):
at the moment.
Joachim, you want to start bysharing what's on your wrist
today?

Joachim (02:40):
I am so psyched that we get to do a wrist check in this
setting.
Um, because as you said, it islike the preserve of the watch
influencer, the watch podcaster,the watch YouTube channel.
So yeah, it's really cool to getto talk about our wrists today.
Um, today I'm wearing I'm goingto hold it up so you can see.

(03:03):
This is one of my favorites.
It's my IWC Top Gun Pilot'sWatch, which is a chronograph.
I guess we did warn everyonethis is not going to be a Watch
Geek episode, but it's hard notto.
So this is the referenceIW389101.
Yeah, we got it in there.
Um,.
I think this is a great exampleof kind of cross branded stuff.

(03:28):
I mean, as, as I said, it's aTop Gun watch.
So the front of it looks like atypical, IWC chronograph, and
chronograph for the nonwatchkeys just means stopwatch
built into it.
And that's known as acomplication because it's,
Something that's added on top ofjust basic timekeeping.
I'm a big fan of this watch.
It's quite bulky and quite big,but it taps into a lot of the

(03:50):
emotional aspects of, you know,why these watches mean
something.
So growing up, I watched Top Gunwhen I was way too young as a
child.
I probably shouldn't have beenexposed to that, but it Blew my
mind.
It was one of those movies thatI watched so many times is
etched in my memory.

(04:12):
And IWC have been making thisTop Gun chronograph for quite a
while, actually.
But as a watch snob, I was verywary of the earlier iterations
because I think if I remembercorrectly, the earlier
iterations did not have an inhouse movement.
They had a ETA movement.
So it was something off theshelf from the Swatch group, and
I think it's the last 10 yearsor something, IWC's made a big

(04:35):
effort to become more of a,complete manufacturer.
And so the movement that's inthis is their quote unquote in
house movement.
It's not very clear exactly howmuch of it is really, really in
house.
How much are they starting fromblank metal to make the
movement?
I don't think it's that barebones that they start from that
point, but it made me feel good.
And it made me feel good about,saying yes to something like

(04:56):
this.
In fact, my wife actually got itas a surprise for me.
I had said, I'm interested inIWC.
I don't know which one there aretwo that I'm interested in.
She just pulled the trigger onone and I was shocked and
speechless because I wasn't sureif that was the right choice
until it arrived and I was sold.
What's really cool is the caseback has got the Top Gun logo on
it.
That's the only place thatyou'll actually see anything Top

(05:17):
Gun related.
Um, and the colorway is verybright.
Very, very basic, just black andwhite, and the second hand is
red, so it's quite,, Spartan andutilitarian.
And ceramic case, I mean, anywatch that's a little bit more,
expensive, I really think aceramic case is a great thing.
Just, it doesn't scratch easily,super robust, and you feel good
about wearing it out and about.

(05:38):
And.
What's great about it is it's avery stealthy watch that I just
like looking at.
As you were saying at thebeginning, don't need a watch,
Don't need a chronograph, notlike I'm keeping time for
anything meaningful with mywristwatch.
But, all the emotional aspectsof it, being connected with Top
Gun, my weird obsession with itas a child, the fact that it's
still part of me, that I stillenjoy that movie so much.

(06:00):
It gets at exactly what theseproducts are.
They're purely emotional things.
What about you, Ernest?
What's on your wrist?

Ernest (06:07):
Oh, that's a great choice.
I went a very different way andI'm wearing, I'll hold it up for
you as well.

Joachim (06:14):
Oh,

Ernest (06:15):
Oh, a watch from a very small brand called Ming.
It's named after the founder ofthe company, Ming Thein, I
believe is his name.
And the specific model is calledthe 37.
07.
And it's a very, uh, simple.
two handed watch, meaning itonly has an hour and a minute

(06:36):
hand.
There's no seconds hand.
And, uh, one of the hallmarks ofMing's watches is they do really
interesting things with thedial, uh, instead of, um, kind
of a traditional dial surface.
They, they use layers of clearsapphire, um, and etch and print

(06:57):
on these different layers tocreate really interesting
effects that are unique.
Um, and then also they do somereally fun things with lume, the
material that makes the watchglow in the dark.
uh, it's really hard to explain.
So we'll, um, I wanted tohighlight Ming as well as a

(07:18):
little bit of a cheat because Ididn't think I'd have a chance
to, to highlight this during thebody of the episode, but Ming is
a great example of what's knownin the watch industry as a micro
brand, just a very small brandoften made up of just a small
collection or even just oneperson.
And um, I think they'reMicrobrands are just such a

(07:38):
great facet of the watch world.
Um, they definitely played areally big part in me, you know,
getting, falling in love withwatches in particular, um, to
micro brands that really got meinto this enthusiasm for watches
were, uh, brand based out ofVancouver, British Columbia
called Helios watches makes,they make great, um, what are

(08:02):
called tool watches, watchesmeant for, Diving or hiking or,
doing activities.
And then another micro brand towatch a company called Raven
based out of Kansas.
Uh, and I think if you're kindof new to this world, micro
brands are a really great way toget into it because they, their
watches tend to be more, uh,accessibly priced, and, offer

(08:25):
really good value, you know,because they're small companies,
they don't have quite theoverhead of these bigger
companies and, um, It's just a,and they're, because they're
small, I think in a lot ofcases, they're more willing to
take risks.
Another really the great thingabout micro brands is that they
are an expression of some ofthese things we've talked about

(08:46):
over these past few episodes.
So for example, the importanceof repairability and the
importance of standards inenabling ecosystems to flourish.
the reason I bring that up isthat many of these micro brands.
Use off the shelf movements.
Like Joachim, you mentioned someof the earlier IWCs use just off

(09:08):
the shelf movements.
and that means that they canreally focus on the other
aspects of the watch.
You know, the case, the uniquedial, and also it enables them
to keep costs down because theydon't have to spend, millions of
dollars developing their ownmovement.
So it, it allows for a lot ofexperimentation in this
microbrand watch space, um, andallows for easy repairability.

(09:32):
So, um, I think they kind ofshow why it's so great to, um,
have an open ecosystem that youcan tap into.
Uh, and then one other thing Iwanted to highlight was a great
example that Microbrands aren'tjust for people starting out.
Um, there was a really funexample of the actor Idris Elba,

(09:53):
who has actually been anambassador for at least two or
maybe even three different watchbrands, you know,, all high end
watch brands.
But in a recent, interview on a,YouTube channel, we'll include a
link to it.
He was wearing a micro brandwatch in this case from a small
New York based, uh, brand calledbrew.
Uh, and they make watches thatare all focused around coffee

(10:18):
because the founder of thecompany loves coffee.
And so they have some uniquefeatures that are meant to help
people who make coffee.
Uh, and it's a fun watch.
A 450 watch, so it was so coolto see Idris Elba who can
afford, you know,, any watch outthere, uh,, choosing to wear a
watch from Brew.
He wasn't sponsored, he wasn'tendorsed to do it.
It was just because he reallyliked the watch because this

(10:39):
company makes great watches.
So it's a great way to start,but it's not just for people who
are new to the space, thesesorts of micro brand watches.
So, uh, that's why I wore myMing today and wanted to
highlight that.
All right, well, now let's on toour main topic and, uh, we're
going to put a little bit ofstructure around this or else I
think Joachim and I would, um,end up spending hours kind of

(11:02):
just pontificating aboutwatches.
So, uh, what we're going to dois each of us is going to pick
one brand to highlight as apositive case study.
One brand to highlight as anegative case study, in other
words what not to do.
And then one wild card which wecan use to highlight any brand
for good or for ill.

(11:22):
And for each brand we'll talkthrough why we picked it and
what lessons we think we cantake away from it that could be
applied beyond the world ofwatches.
And, you know, we'll alternate,go back and forth.
So, are you up for getting astarted positive, negative, or
wild card?
You can start wherever youplease.

Joachim (11:39):
I think I'll start with my positive watch brand and I
want to highlight IWC.
Okay..
IWC is really interesting,because they're not based in
Geneva or anywhere like thatwhere all the other watch makers
are.
They're based in Schaffhausen,which is the German speaking
part of Switzerland, not theFrench speaking part.

(11:59):
So IWC is the internationalwatch company started by an
American who wanted to takeadvantage of the low labor costs
in Switzerland, which is reallystrange to be thinking about,
but at the time that was thecase in the early 1800s.
a rich family took over thecompany eventually.
The interesting thing is thatsomeone married into that family

(12:19):
and then became their CEO, theequivalent of the CEO back in
the day, and that person wasCarl Jung, the psychoanalyst,
you know, who worked with Freudand came up with these ideas of
the archetype and the collectiveunconsciousness.
He worked as the CEO for a goodchunk of time because his wife's
family owned this watch company.

(12:39):
Just a funny little side thingthat is part of IWC's heritage.
Now.
The present day IWC, yeah, it'stotally crazy.
I mean, who would have thoughtpresent day IWC is part of a
huge, huge conglomerate.
So I think what's interestingabout the watch industry is that
a lot of it reflects kind of theway all industries go.
There are very few independents.

(12:59):
There are very few manufacturersthat are able to do the whole
thing end to end by themselves.
So most, Swiss watchmanufacturers are part of large
groups and IWC is part ofRichemont, which owns like
ungodly number of brands, um,including Vacheron Constantin,
like the list is long.

(13:21):
So they're not an indiemanufacturer.
They have heritage, but they'renow part of this big
conglomerate.
What's interesting about thebrand is that they're able to
balance everything off in areally non cheesy way.
and I think that's really beenonly coming together for them in
the last.
I'll say 15 years.
Cause that's what it feels likethat they've been able to find
the right mix of watches, theright mix of, technical

(13:45):
innovation to keep peopleinterested.
and pretty effective cross brandcollaborations.
So one of the earlier ones thatthey've had, in their watch
collection has been acollaboration with Mercedes, the
Formula One team Mercedes thatis.
and so Lewis Hamilton and GeorgeRussell, now the current drivers
for Mercedes, all wear IWCwatches.

(14:08):
When they're out and about, theywear versions of the pilot's
chronograph, which is moreaffordable, but of course they
get access to all the goodstuff.
So I think when you see LewisHamilton out and about, he's
usually wearing a Mojaveperpetual calendar, Top Gun
chrono thing, which is just 40,50 K, you know, for him,
nothing.
Cause his watch collection isprobably even more crazy, the

(14:29):
collaboration leads to watchesthat are co branded, but again,
done in a pretty, Tasteful way.
I want to say one of them hassome very garish colors that
reflect the Mercedes Formula Oneteam branding, but it's not over
the top cheesy.
One collaboration I alreadymentioned is the Top Gun
collaboration.
usually when watch brands tryand get into some sort of

(14:49):
military heritage, it also canbe a bit cheesy.
A brand that's really guilty ofthat is Omega, I think, because
they've done so much work withJames Bond and they've tried to
create an iteration of theirSeamaster 300, which is on the
market right now that hashallmarks of an official watch
that the British military wouldbe, issuing it looks great.

(15:14):
I think it's a really greatwatch without the branding of
the Bond thing.
I think it will be fantastic.
They're just trying so hard toconvince us that this is the
watch of someone who would beout there doing stuff and,
fighting the bad guys.
And it just doesn't quite work.
It's a little bit cheesy.
The Top Gun collaboration thatIWC has feels more real.

(15:35):
The pilots watches Are based onthe watches that were issued to
pilots, mostly,, German pilotswere wearing versions of these
watches during World War II.
So not the good guys, butthey've somehow managed to also
distance themselves from that.
What's interesting about the TopGun collaboration is the watch
that you can buy in the shopshas the logo on the back.
And it's pretty subtle, as Isaid The cool twist is that Top

(15:58):
Gun pilots get this watch aswell.
And they graduate.
From the school, but they don'tget the one that's off the
shelf.
They get a special one that'sunique.
So it's still the same watch,but there's some cosmetic
differences.
And so you feel a connection toTop Gun, but you know yourself,
you know, the truth is you'renot a Top Gun pilot because they

(16:19):
get their own special watch.
So there's a very interesting.
choice there where they'redeliberately creating a
difference between theprofessionals who will, have
earned that watch and us who areable to access it by just buying
it.
But it still somehow feelslegitimate.
They've not cheapened the ideathat those pilots are actually
getting something unique that istheirs.
And it's their tool watch.

(16:40):
for the Eagle eyed, if you watchthe new Top Gun movie, you will
see IWC watches everywhere,including right at the
beginning.
I think they even have an IWCstop watch So anyway.
I think that was a very clevercollaboration.
And they recently did a Top GunPantone one.
So they took colors fromPantone's catalog and created
these very unique colors withthe ceramic material.

(17:02):
that was also really well done.
So Pantone's branding shows upon the.
on the website and the color istheir color.
It's done pretty tastefully.
I think as a case study in howto do Collaborations with
another brand, these have beenpretty thoughtful.
And the little lessons arecreate some tiering in there,

(17:22):
give customers the sense thatthey're accessing something, but
let them know that it's not thereal thing because there is a
real thing out there.
So it's interesting becauseyou're not trying to dupe the
customer into thinking they'reJames Bond.
You're trying to say, this isthe one for you guys.
You're not pilots, but you getto enjoy the technology anyway.
I think more meta, maybe moreinteresting, just generally the
current CEO of IWC.

(17:44):
He was an architect.
He joined IWC as an architectand just loved the brand and
stayed on.
And that kind of reminded mecall back to an earlier episode,
reminded me of Dieter Rams, whoalso joined Brown as a architect
and then got into the designdepartment.
The current CEO has worked hisway through the company and is
now the CEO.
But what's interesting is thathis knowledge of architecture
and his training has informedthe way he thinks about this

(18:07):
company more and more.
So he has a good sense of taste,but the other thing that's
really interesting is that theirnew factory and manufacturing
space is laid out perfectly forwatch manufacturing.
His claim is that their watchmanufacturing facility is the
only manufacturing facilitythat's laid out sequentially so
that it starts from rawmaterials in a linear fashion,

(18:29):
raw materials, rods of metalrods of, yeah, they start with
rods of metal and then those gothrough machining processes,
stage by stage, linearly throughthe factory until it gets to the
final moment when the watch isfinished so architectural
thinking is informing aproduction process.
So goodness me.
I could go on.
As you said, Ernest, thankfullythere are two of us, so no one

(18:51):
has to just listen to IWC.
I think they're a great brand tojust check out.
Anyway, Ernest, if you have tonow take over, cause otherwise
I'm going to go on forever.
What have you got?
Where do you want to start?
Do you want to start positive?
Or are you going to go straightfor the jugular negative?

Ernest (19:05):
no, no, I'll start positive as well, but I love
that.
you chose that if you see, Ithink it's a great one because,
I think a lot of people whoaren't immersed in the watch
world have not heard of IWC.
So I think it's a great one tohighlight because it, does have
such great heritage.
But, I actually wanted to startwith a positive and actually
it's another brand from theRichemont group.
Uh, like you've mentionedJoachim, they have a huge family

(19:27):
of, Brands, the one I wanted tohighlight is Cartier and, uh, I
should start by apologizing inadvance for my terrible
pronunciation.
in terms of just kicking it offwith the lesson here, the, for
me, the broader lesson withCartier is that you can be true
to your heritage.
Without being precious about it.
I think they've done a great jobof illustrating that.

(19:49):
just for some background foranyone who's not familiar,
Cartier was founded by a Frenchwatchmaker named Louis Francois
Cartier in 1847, which wasactually one year before the
company that would become Omegawas founded and nearly six
decades before the company thatwould become Rolex was born.
So it has a very long history.

(20:09):
And, though Cartier is known bymany today as a jewelry house,
its roots are in watches.
Um, the founder of LouisFrancois Cartier was a
watchmaker.
Um, and so just to give you alittle bit of history here, I'll
quote an excellent article byMark Bernardo at the
TeddyBaldassarre.com willprovide a link to this as well.
But, uh, quote, once dubbed theking of jewelers and the jeweler

(20:33):
of Kings by no less a personagethan Edward VII of England,
Cartier is regarded by manywatch aficionados as a jewelry
house first and a watchmakersecond and a watchmaker prone to
feminine jewel bedecked watchesat that.
Historically, however, nothingcould be further from the truth.
Cartier's horological roots runeven deeper than its high

(20:55):
jewelry history, and the FrenchSwiss luxury powerhouse has
contributed some of the mosthistoric and influential watch
designs in the world, many ofthem aimed at men long before
their appeal expanded to women.
Unquote.
So as I mentioned, though, morerecently, Cartier was acquired
by Richemont in 1993.

(21:16):
And there was a period wherethey really struggled in the
watch space so much so thataccording to a November, 2023
article by Jamie Morton in thegreen market magazine, I'm
quoting her here.
Between 2016 and 2018, the SwissRichemont group that owns
Cartier launched a massivebuyback initiative, buying over

(21:37):
500 million worth of unsoldinventory back from retailers to
protect Cartier's brand valueand prevent deeply discounted
prices on stagnant inventory.
Jumping forward to today though,Cartier consistently ranks among
the top three brands inworldwide luxury watch sales,
second only to Rolex and as of2020 surpassing Omega.

(22:00):
And.
They've been able to drive thisgrowth in large part through
reissues and reimaginings oftheir mostly dressy classics at
a time when really sport watcheswere what's dominated the
industry.
They've also mostly eschewed thetypical watch world trope of
pursuing what's known as hautehorlogerie.

(22:21):
In other words, just making themost complicated watch possible.
Just to show that you can,certainly some of the models
they've launched at, uh, watchesand wonders over the past few
years have exhibited finewatchmaking, but their
collection has consistentlyemphasized the joy of beautiful
objects.
And I think that's been at thecore of their resurgence as a

(22:42):
watch brand.
So I think they're just.
A great example of findingsuccess, not by following the
trend du jour, but by being trueto your brand's values and
making your own path forwardbased on those values.
Uh, and a great expression ofthis is the fact that you
wouldn't confuse any watch inCartier's lineup with anyone

(23:03):
else's, which I think is justfantastic in kind of a
marketplace with a lot of me tooproducts.
Are you at all a fan of Cartier,Joachim?

Joachim (23:12):
I have, to be honest, I always really found them so
dainty is the word I would use.
Um, but I have to say theCartier Santos, which is a
square watch a little bit largerthan, the other ones that they
offer.
They've been quite interestingto me.
They have a great, a greatpresence, it is very unique.
And as you said, I think Theyare really hard to get mistaken

(23:37):
for another watch brand.
It is super unique what they do.
So they've really managed tohold onto that heritage and, and
a unique design, which I thinkis very special.

Ernest (23:46):
Yeah, and actually, I'm glad you mentioned the Santos
because, um, I don't think a lotof people realize how much
heritage that model has as welland that it's broadly considered
to be the first men's wristwatchand also the first purpose built
wristwatch as opposed to apocket watch that was converted
to a wristwatch and also Thevery first pilot's watch, which

(24:09):
is not something that people

Joachim (24:10):
That's crazy.
I didn't know that.
Okay.
Blowing my mind right now.
Goodness.
Thank you for that.

Ernest (24:14):
no, so yeah they do have an incredible history in
watches, um, and, but, uh, theylost it for a little while, but
it's been really exciting to seethem, uh, tap into it again,
and, um, I'm very excited to seewhat they bring to this year's
Watches and Wonders.

Joachim (24:31):
I think what's interesting also what you said,
and I think it's worthhighlighting purely from a sound
business strategy.
It's pretty crazy when you thinkabout it, that some, a company
would go back into the marketand they would buy stock back
like half a billion dollarsworth of stock back, pull it out
of the market you could argue,there are different things they

(24:53):
could have done with that money.
I mean, one dumb thing theycould have done is said, look,
we just need to blast more adsout there to make the things
seem more desirable going backinto the market and pulling
inventory to make sure peopledon't start slashing the prices
and trying to just move theinventory.
It's a gutsy thing to be doing.

(25:14):
People feel that it's like kindof retreating.
Maybe you're, you're leavingwith your tail between your
legs.
But I think it's actually areally, it's a power move
because you're saying we'regoing to take really very direct
action.
We're not going to rely on, likeI said, an advertising campaign,
a branding campaign, hiring somebrand ambassador that eventually
will add up to about a half abillion dollars.

(25:37):
Just saying, I don't, we don'twant to cheapen this thing.
There's too much stuff outthere.
It's going to get slashed inprice.
It's going to degrade and damagethe brand long term.
That's a really gutsy move.
There's a lesson in that forsure.
I think that's a totallylegitimate way to think about
protecting this very ephemeralconcept of brand value, you
know?

Ernest (25:56):
Right.
Yeah, gutsy is the word thatcame to mind for me as well.
And I think what's great too isit's not a, you know, kind of
hope for the best sort ofapproach.
It's, it's part of a broaderstrategy, uh, one step in a
broader strategy.
And, um, I absolutely, you know,have huge respect for Richemont
for, um, you know, having the,the, Courage of their

(26:19):
convictions to do that, youknow, that's a that's a huge
risk on their part But um, theyhad a plan and they believed in
it and then they they put theirmoney where their mouth was and
now They're really reaping thebenefits of that

Joachim (26:32):
Yeah, yeah.

Ernest (26:34):
All right.
Well, that's my first pick andmy positive.
How about your second pick,Joachim?

Joachim (26:40):
Okay, I'm gonna go, so my negative is, Richard Mille, a
brand that is considered to beone of, one of the big, big top
tier, completely astronomicallypriced out of reach watch brands
that's out there.

(27:00):
Formula One fans, you will haveseen Richard Mille's because
they sponsor the Ferrari teamanyway, if you're listening to
this, you can afford a RichardMille.
I think we, you need to email usand you need to give us some
money.
Uh, but Richard Mille is abrand, a kind of a new brand.
Like I said, the prices of theirwatches start in the hundreds of
thousands of dollars.

(27:21):
I understand that we have beendiscussing luxury watches that
are, expensive and they arecompletely pointless.
I think it's fair to sayanything that's above 20 for a
watch is already getting intoluxury territory because it's
completely unnecessary.
and why even spend the 20?
You have it in your, Everydevice in your home now has a
clock in some form.
You don't need something on yourwrist.

(27:42):
So it's a strange thing to thencall out a brand for being so
excessive.
Part of it is just my personalbeef with excess in general.
It is a symptom of the totalcraziness of our world right now
so I was always wondering howpodcasts people come up with
like a thing that they have.
I think my thing is constraints.

(28:03):
It keeps coming up, but Richardmeal, their watches are
expensive and they're notexpensive because they're just
charging a lot of money forthem.
They're incredibly technicallycomplicated watches with
tourbillons and all kinds ofcrazy stuff happening.
And they have a great storyattached to them.
If you think about the branding,it's brilliant.
in fact, one of my favorite,Watch endorses is actually

(28:27):
Michelle Yeoh, who is endorsedby Richard Mille.
And they made her a fantasticwatch and it's has shock
absorption because MichelleYeoh's a stunt woman, right?
And she wants to have a watchthat represents her ability to
take a, a kick and a punch andthrow herself off a bus.
So the watch should be able tomatch that.
And their watches can sustainthose types of hits.

(28:48):
Which is insane for a mechanicalmachine to be able to do that.
So if you look at the details,if they gave you a cost
breakdown, it would be veryclear why the watch costs 500,
000.
They have no constraints.
If you can spend five yearsthinking about a single
component in that watch, and youdon't have to worry about Time

(29:09):
running out or money runningout, you just, just keep pushing
for the most crazy thing thatyou could imagine.
There's just no discipline andthey know they can off offload
these watches.
if a watch costs two, 3 millionto, to make, they know someone's
going to buy it.
They have waiting lists, so theydon't really have to worry about
that and they didn't really haveto worry about revenue and

(29:29):
profits and costs and all ofthose things.
Completely unconstrained.
And so I find that RichardMille's, lack of constraints
disconcerting if you give me ablank check, of course I can do
everything.
If I have a huge corporationsitting behind me and I'm going
to start a new business line forone of these trillion dollar

(29:49):
companies, of course it's goingto be a success.
So I find from a purelyphilosophical angle, Richard
Mille as a brand just doesn'twork for me, because it doesn't
really get at innovation.
The real trick and the realskill is when you have to face a
trade off So, as a company, Idon't think there's anything
that you could extract as, as aset of lessons that you could

(30:12):
get from them.
It's not interesting, even froma pure, how does this company
operate?
Anyway, that was a long one.
I think again, We're going toedit this down, but anyway, um,
what's it, wait, how do you feelabout Richard meal?
Cause it's one of those thatyou, as a watch person who's
normal, like who has a job andsalary and things like that,

(30:33):
it's not a brand where you go,Oh, Ernest, thinking about
getting that Richard Mille.

Ernest (30:39):
You know, actually, it's a really interesting one, and
I'll, maybe I'll,, share mythoughts on it as I talk about
my pick as well, because I thinkthere's some links,

Joachim (30:48):
Yeah, let's do it.

Ernest (30:50):
uh, but that was a great choice.
My next one, I'll also gonegative, a negative case study.
And I think a lot of, uh, watchgeeks, if there are any
listening, will turn off thepodcast as soon as I say what my
choice is.
But, uh, it is one of the socalled Holy Trinity of Swiss
watchmakers, which is, I think,a ridiculous name.

(31:12):
Given, to the trio of PatekPhilippe, Vacheron Constantin,
and Audemars Piguet, which I'llrefer to from now on as just AP.
And AP is my negative casestudy.

Joachim (31:23):
That's it.
That's it.
Everyone's all the watch geeks.
The three people, the threepeople that are listening,

Ernest (31:29):
We've lost them.

Joachim (31:30):
we've lost, they're gone.
That's it.

Ernest (31:33):
Um, and, and that will, they'll hear me out here, right?
So in the case of AP, they'vehad an enormously successful
product in a model called theRoyal Oak.
It was introduced in 1972 nearthe beginning of what would come
to be known as the quartz crisisthat decimated the mechanical
watch industry globally, butalso really impacted

(31:56):
Switzerland.
But the Royal Oak was arevelation in that it introduced
the concept of a luxury sportswatch.
It just didn't exist beforethen.
It sounds so simple now, but theRoyal Oak was, a watch
Positioned as a luxurytimepiece, priced as a luxury
timepiece, but it was made instainless steel instead of

(32:19):
precious metals, which allluxury watches were back then.
Uh, and it was meant to be wornin more sporting context and it,
that it just didn't exist beforethe Royal Oak, that idea.
So it really was agroundbreaking piece.
And um, It didn't doparticularly well at first
because it was just so radicalat the time, but, uh, it came to

(32:40):
become, um, it came to be very,very popular.
And especially in recent overthe past decade, it's just kind
of become part of the financebro uniform, uh, has just
rocketed in value.
that might seem like a reallygreat thing, right?
So you have this incrediblypopular watch, uh, that defined
a whole category of watches.

(33:01):
But to give you some morecontext around this, I'm going
to quote a blog post by Gary G.
from Quill Pad.
This is a post from June of2019, a few months after AP
launched an entirely newcollection called Code 11:59.
Okay.
So quoting Gary G.
here.
Your leading product line, theRoyal Oak is a curse as you

(33:22):
sense that at some point it mustbegin to decline and your market
research tells you that itsbuyers are beginning to skew
older.
Your other core lines, the JulesAudemars and Millenary have
languished in the massive shadowof the Royal Oak success.
And increasingly consumers seeAudemars Piguet as synonymous
with and limited to Royal Oak.

(33:43):
In the hundreds of case studiesI analyzed back in my business
school days, this is again,still Gary G each ended with.
What should the CEO do?
In real life, it appears thatAudemars Piguet concluded that
the answer to his problem was tocreate an entirely new line of
watches sportier and edgier thantraditional dress watches while
still being on the dressy sideof the Royal Oak, with this new

(34:06):
line being called Code 11:59.
The initial online response tothe new collection was extremely
negative, and even among thosewho withheld judgment until
handling the watches, I'd saythe word lukewarm was the
general view.
So, what went wrong?
There are a number of do's anddon'ts when it comes to new
product strategy and AudemarsPiguet fell afoul of many of

(34:28):
them, unquote.
Now in his blog post, Gary Genumerates the various ways he
thinks AP went wrong with code11:59.
Uh, but I'll just cite one,which is that again, quoting
him, the code 11:59 line is It'spositioned somewhere between
dress and sport.
That's already a bit problematicfrom a product portfolio

(34:48):
perspective as the Royal Oakalready sits atop the dividing
line between dress and sportwatches.
And it's tough for a singlemanufacturer to establish two
distinct offering personalitiesin the same space.
If you imagine a wall sizedproduct positioning map on which
the Royal Oak and Kodal N59lines are plotted with pins, the
pins would be almost touchingand surrounded by ample areas of

(35:11):
blank, unserved marketpotential.
That's not good, unquote.
And so, you know, I think justfrom a very simple positioning
perspective of SCARIG notes,they are.
They took this thing that's beenreally successful, but I think I
would agree with his perspectivethat it's kind of come to define

(35:31):
AP, um, in a way that puts themat great risk because it's just
inevitably going to decline.
Um, they've tried to addressthat with a new product line in
the code 59 that's essentiallypositioned in the same place as
the Royal Oak.
So that's just kind of a, seemslike a very basic, um, unforced

(35:51):
error to start with, but alsowhat At least I see in code
11:59 is something we've talkedabout in past episodes, which is
that AP did what it could do,namely very complicated
watchmaking instead of what,what it needed to do, which was
to reassess what it stood for asa brand and then create products

(36:13):
that reflected those values—nottheir capabilities, not what
they can do, what they standfor.
Um, and.
So to me, AP as it is today isreally kind of a mirror image of
Cartier in that they're a brandthat no longer seems to know
what they stand for.
Um, Or you could also say thatthey're evidence that a brand

(36:35):
must stand for more than justone of its products.
Um, and I think you could justkind of see that in the
meandering way that they'vecontinued to sort of evolve the
11:59, um, by just, Making iteven more complicated and and
even in my opinion lessrelevant, you know, obviously,
I'm not like you you touched onnot a millionaire not in the

(37:02):
Income bracket to be able topurchase these watches, but
they're not even Um, there'snothing about them that, uh,
says anything really.
Um, and, and that's why I thinkit's so disappointing because
Audemars Piguet, like we talkedabout just a minute ago, is one
of the few remainingindependent, um, you know,

(37:22):
artists.
Brands, Swiss watch brands withlong history and heritage, and
they are able to do incrediblethings in terms of watchmaking.
You know, I don't think anyonecan critique the watchmaking
behind the code 11:59.
It's, it's, you know, peerless,but.
Um, it's just packaged in a waythat, um, is just bereft of

(37:45):
meaning, um, and so makes it,um, just not at all desirable as
beautifully constructed andengineered as it is.
Uh, one sort of, so, you know,to your point about Richard
Mille, the funny thing is thatfor me, what Richard Mille is
doing is kind of the logical.

(38:08):
Extension of what the, um, reallook would be if you continue to
evolve it and modernize it.
I feel like, uh, Richard mealhas now kind of defined that
luxury sport watch, um, in a waythat Audemars Piguet stopped
doing, because what they didwith the Royal Oak was they just
made it more luxury.

(38:29):
They, put, uh, executed it inprecious metals.
They added all thesecomplications to it, which is
fine.
Fun and exciting.
Um, but it's ceased to evolve.
Um, and I think that if they hadcontinued to evolve it, it would
look more like what, um, uh,Richard Mille has done with
their line for good and for ill.

(38:50):
Right.
I don't particularly like thosewatches either, but they've
definitely staked out a uniqueterritory that had.
Been established initially bythe Royal Oak.
Um, so that's kind of thatconnection that I was referring
to earlier that I had seen.
Um, but what do you think,Joachim, do you think, think I'm
crazy?
Are you a, an AP fan?

Joachim (39:12):
No, I think you're really on the money.
It's, uh, it's as if there's arisky thing to say in the watch.
It's kind of a, I mean, theRoyal Oak stands as this
monolithic watch.
It is, it is Audemars Piguet.
Audemars Piguet is the RoyalOak.
And there are very few brands inmany industries that have, are

(39:35):
known for one thing.
I think.
Porsche is a good example ofsomething, the nine 11 was
synonymous.
That's Porsche.
That's a Porsche.
Now there's a bigger, broaderproduct portfolio and they
haven't, just kept doingversions of the 911.
They went SUV, unfortunately.
but then they were like, well,medium SUV, small SUV, electric,

(39:56):
four doors, and then cheapersports car, Cayman, Boxsters
718, 911.
They were trying to get theright products that they weren't
interfering with each other.
The 9 11 still is the 9 11.
It is the thing that defines thebrand.
They're never going to get ridof that design, that shape, but
they've been iterating on it.

(40:16):
It does not look like the oldone.
The Royal Oak is still the coreof Royal Oak, pretty much the
same thing.
A good contrapoint as well toWhat I thought was effective
cross branding, I think Audemarscross brand and collaborations
are so awful that just, it'sjust some of the worst stuff
I've seen.

(40:37):
So, it's hard to believe thatthis is true, but there's a
Royal Oak concept that has atourbillon, and it's got Spider
Man on it.
And it costs an obscene amountof money.
And before Spider Man, there wasthe Black Panther watch.
Like, of all the brands, who areyou trying to appeal to?
And then, in terms of celebrityendorsements, obviously, they're

(40:57):
there.
But one of the major ones thatthey recently had was they got
John Mayer And John Mayer justreleased another version of the
Royal Oak.
Like, this is my version of theRoyal Oak.
I don't think he's a watchdesigner.
And it's very clear that Hedidn't have an idea other than
could we make a really coolRoyal Oak?
Cause I love the Royal Oak.
Why do this?
Why do these cross brand things?
Their watches are veryexpensive.

(41:19):
They start at about 20, 000 fora watch.
When you, when you say it outloud and other people are
listening, you realize howstupid that sounds, right?
But these are expensive watches,but at that price point.
They're not that great, andyeah, these collaborations just
seem completely pointless.
If you did want to get JohnMayer, let John Mayer just tell,

(41:40):
force him.
You're not allowed to do a RoyalOak.
Anything else, right?
Anything else in the backcatalog?
We'll do it for you.
I just realized this is, this isso funny that this is about
something quite ridiculous, butit does touch on a lot of these
aspects of what makes a brand.
You said at the beginning, theseare purely emotional purchases.

(42:03):
They fulfill no utility at all.
They have absolutely no, they'repure luxury.
You don't need it.
And so when it comes time topick a brand, pick a watch, it
is totally driven by That veryemotional connection that you
have with a brand.
I think the customer journey isstill something that really
matters in all of this stuffbecause it is such an emotional,

(42:25):
object.
It has nothing to do withutility.
Here you can see.
a case study where everythingelse is stripped away.
It's just emotion.
It's just spirit.
In every other industry, there'sgoing to be a, there's other
competition.
There's this price point.
There's these features.
Are there's what's the upgradecycle look like if you're
thinking about expensive itemslike electronics.
So, I think it's worth studyingstill as a, as an outsider, even

(42:46):
to understand that.

Ernest (42:48):
that's a good, that's a great point.
Um, it is such a unique space,um, that it's almost like genre
fiction.
Uh, it's this way of, differentway of looking at the world to
gain lessons that you can kindof bring back into the real
world.
Uh, well, alright, so how aboutyour last pick?

(43:08):
Your wild card.

Joachim (43:10):
My wild card.
Well, the brand is Hublot.
That is a young brand.
And from the outside is kind ofthe worst version of Richard
Mille.
Very expensive watches.
But a lot of those watches arenot really expensive on the
inside.
They took watches that hadmovements That cost,, a couple

(43:32):
of hundred dollars to make andbuy off the shelf, shove them
into some nice watch cases andthen they slapped on a, like a
5, 000, 6, 000 percent markup onthat.
They really are just the worst,the worst part.
They were really ripping peopleoff and so they have really
suffered to a certain extentbecause they've never been taken

(43:53):
seriously as a watch brand.
Now, what's really interestingis that in the last couple of
years, There's been a slightshift, but they still do this
really irritating thing ofmaking overpriced watches.
But then at the same time,really strangely, they're making
incredibly interesting,technically, sound and

(44:14):
technically interesting watches.
and that's, weird to me, whichis why I don't know how to think
about them.
They're not all bad.
That, that, that practice ofjust taking basic watches and
making them expensive is reallygrifty and awful.
But then in the last couple ofyears they have the Big Bang
Unico now.
and that is a chronographmeaning it has a timer.
But it also is a flyback chrono,which means you don't have to

(44:37):
stop it and reset it.
You just push a button and thechronograph resets automatically
and just keeps counting time.
The second hand swings back,hence fly back, flies back.
It's ready to go again.
So they've made a watch movementthat is technically at that
level.
They've put it in a greatdesign.
And so here's the other thingthat they're known for first.
So, they're the first brand toput a rubber strap on a precious

(45:00):
metal watch.
That is.
It's pretty common now.
Hublot were the first to evenconsider doing something like
that.
They're the first watch brand tomake a sapphire case for a
watch, which is also nutty, butnow many brands are trying to
cover that.
So that was their first and thencolored ceramics.
Which I was very happy with IWCfor doing, but Uber were the
first to do colored ceramics.

(45:22):
What's going on here?
You know, it's a brand that wasplaying this really grifty game
of cheap watch movements andexpensive watches.
But then at the same time,there's this dual identity of a
brand that is trying to make.
take risks and make interestingwatches out of it.
So that's my wild card because Ijust don't know how to feel

(45:43):
about it.
I feel bad when I like them.
It's so, so stupid.
I regularly go back to thewebsite and then I just look at
one of them and go, do I, am Istarting to just force myself to
think this is nice or what'swrong?
And it's good that it's soexpensive cause I'm never going
to get it.
Um, but, um, Yeah.
I just have many moments late atnight and I'm just looking at

(46:06):
the Hublot catalog.
I'm thinking maybe it's not thatbad.

Ernest (46:12):
That's a great choice.
I actually, uh,, I've oftenthought that if, uh, Casio's G
Shock, uh, division were to makemechanical watches, they'd look
a lot like Hublots.

Joachim (46:23):
Yeah.
I think that's true.
There's something Spartanutilitarian, but a bit dressy
and technical about that.
That thing.
Yeah.
Technical maybe is the word todescribe it.

Ernest (46:32):
But also just completely over the top.

Joachim (46:34):
Yeah.
Ridiculous.
It's terrible, but so good.

Ernest (46:41):
I love that.
That's a great use of the wildcard.

Joachim (46:43):
Yeah.
How about you, Ernest?
What's your wildcard?

Ernest (46:46):
Uh, I'm going to be a little bit more boring and pick
another, use my wildcard tohighlight another positive.
Although I'm going to cheat alittle bit and highlight two
brands, but the reason that myrationale here is that I'm
highlighting them for the samereason.
Um,

Joachim (47:01):
You're cheating.
You're cheating right now.
But anyway, we'll let it slide.

Ernest (47:05):
And my kind of lesson to take away here might seem
patently obvious, but the brandsI'm highlighting are Parmigiani
Fleurier, which is a Swissbrand.
Sounds like they might be anItalian brand, but they're
actually a Swiss brand.
And then Oris, which is anotherSwiss brand, uh, which I think
is also on the kind of theGerman speaking side of
Switzerland.
Um, and I want to highlight the,uh, Both of them as examples of

(47:29):
the learning that leadershipmatters.
Um, Guido Treni, who's now the,I believe, CEO of Parmigiani
Fleurier.
He, prior to, uh, moving over toParmigiani, he breathed new life
into Bulgari's watch collectionand made, you know, a brand that
was very luxury, uh, relevant inthe luxury space, but irrelevant
in the watch.

(47:50):
space.
He made them relevant with theOcto Finissimo.
He brought that concept to thatbrand.
And, uh, he came over toParmigiani and within a matter
of months turned a pretty sleepybrand, a brand that was known
for, great watchmaking, butotherwise was really not really
particularly, um,, wellregarded, uh, into like, The hot

(48:13):
brand of the moment, I think hewent over and became their CEO
two years ago, and they've justkind of been the bell of the
ball at watches and wonders forthe past two years.
Um, and then similarly, I thinkRolf Studer deserves a lot of
credit for the success that Orishas seen.
And I think he's a great exampleand a great person.

(48:33):
Proof point that leaders cancome from within because he's
been with Orin's Oris since2006.
So contrary to a great attorneywho was kind of a coming from
the outside, Roche Studer camefrom inside Oris and was still
able to really bring greatleadership.
And I love this quote fromStuder from a podcast called the

(48:55):
OT podcast.
It echoes some of the things youhad said earlier.
Um, but I'll quote him here.
He said that Quote, one of theprivileges we have in this
industry is that we make aproduct that nobody needs.
So you better have a very clearanswer to the why your customer
should pay so much money for it.

(49:16):
I really take this as a greatopportunity because we need to
load what we do with a message.
You make a statement with yourwatch.
So what statement is thatexactly?
That's up to every brand.
You can't just go with the flow.
You have to actually have anidea of what you want to do, why
you want to do it, and how youwant to express it.
And I just love that he's soopen about that.

(49:41):
And he's shared that sentimentconsistently.
And if you, Listen to interviewsof Guido Turini at Parmigiani,
you'll hear him express verysimilar sentiments, really, um,
talking about focusing on thewhy and earning your customer's
attention in business.
And, um, I think that focus isreally at the heart of the

(50:04):
success that both of theseleaders have been able to bring
to their respective brands.
Um, are you a fan at all ofeither Parmigiani or Auris?

Joachim (50:14):
Yeah.
I mean, first of all, what agreat summary of this, of the
whole conundrum and paradox ofthe watch industry.
So thumbs up to that as a, as areally nice package of
everything that we've beentalking about.
Oris, I've enjoyed looking attheir products.
I've never felt the, the urgeto, to get in there.
Although I have to say, I reallylike the, Kermit that they did

(50:37):
with a little Kermit, the frogpops up in the date window.
I love that the playfulness ofthat is so it's just so
wonderful Um, yeah, so first ofall, um, Bulgari's Octa
Finissimo is a technicallyfantastic watch.
If you were thinking about whichway the Royal Oak could have
gone, that is the closestdirection something like that

(50:59):
could have evolved into.
It has echoes of it, but it'snot the same watch.
so I'm a big fan of that watchas well.
also that one hascollaborations, I think were
really great.
they got Tadao Ando, theJapanese architect to do a
limited run of watches that hedesigned.
Absolutely incredible.
They're so, they're so great.
I think Parmigiani, here we go.

(51:19):
Here's my thing.
It's Constraints.
Yay.
I'm going to do talk aboutConstraints.
So they've released thesewatches that are, you know, kind
of up and typical watchmakingstuff.
So they have a GMT watch, forexample, which is a watch that
can keep track of two timezones.
And the past, the way you dothat is you have a second watch

(51:39):
hand that is on the watch thatruns with the movement.
And then you have a separatebezel.
That's a 24 hour bezel thatallows you to track that second
time zone.
But Parmigiani Fleury says,well, I don't want to have a
bezel that has a number on it.
it would be great to have a GMTwatch, but we don't want it to
look like everyone else's.
And.

(52:00):
Lo and behold, they came up witha design that, you wouldn't call
it a GMT watch.
GMT watches have a very specificdesign language that everyone
would recognize from a mileaway.

Ernest (52:09):
exactly.
That was the Tonda.
Um, and that was kind of thatthe coming out watch.
And this was only, I think,seven months after he, attorney
had come on as CEO within thatspan.
They created that watch.
And the awesome thing is if youlisten to interviews with him,
He explains, where this ideacame from, and it was all rooted

(52:30):
in their brand values.
The first thing he did when hecame in was say, oh, what do we
stand for?
What does Parmigiani stand for?
And what they kind of aligned onwas that we're all about people.
What he calls private luxury.
And this was before I heardanyone use the term quiet
luxury, but this idea of, a moreunderstated luxury.

(52:51):
And so we were not going to dothings that are ostentatious.
And so they had this idea of, alot of our customers do travel
quite often, but the typical GMTwatch is.
Kind of ostentatious, there's alot of doodads on it.
There's an extra hand.
There's the bezel like youtalked about.
So they thought, how could weexecute this in a way that

(53:12):
delivers on this ideal ofprivate luxury?
And they did it using this,complication of the rattrapante,
but executed in a completelydifferent way, um, in a really
novel way, which I thought wasso fantastic.
And then they followed that upthe next year With the minute
which is kind of a take onchronograph or on the timing

(53:36):
bezel where instead of it beingthe hour hand, it was the minute
hand and it becomes this veryuseful way to track elapsed
time, um, again, in a veryelegant, uh, manner that
delivers on this idea of privateluxury.
So I just love that, that they,they started from those brand
values and built from there.

(53:57):
Which is kind of the exactopposite of what, at least in my
opinion, you see AP doing thesedays,

Joachim (54:03):
This is a good example of a value.
Can naturally translate into adesign that's unique and catches
people's eyes so my long answerto Parmigiani, I really, I love
that watch.
And I think it's a really greatstatement for what that brand
wants to do.
The only thing I think that'sholding them back is that name.
I think that name is really, ithas different associations, and

(54:25):
so maybe they should just be PF,which on the watch face, it is
PF.
I think they could probably getaway with it, but it, that also
sounds a bit.
Lame.
So I get it.
It's, it's tricky.
Um, Parmigiani sounds likecheese.
So, uh,

Ernest (54:41):
that is something that, uh, one of the things he did
training when he came in waschanged the logo because prior
to him coming in, they used tosay Parmigiani on the dial.
And he acknowledged that, yes,that is kind of associated with
one Italian culture and Italianfood and it's a Swiss brand.
So they created this new PFlogo.

(55:03):
just, uh, touching on what you,you mentioned about the Oris
ProPilot X Kermit.
Uh, I'll make sure to include alink to that as well as the AP,
uh, Marvel watches, just so youcan see the difference.
Cause on the surface, justhearing about them, you might
think, Oh, well, they're bothdoing these, collaborations, but

(55:23):
the execution is, is very,, verydifferent.
And the price points as well,the Oris is like about a 3, 000
watch.
And then the APs are tens ofthousands, if not hundreds of
thousands.
So, uh, Yeah, that's a point ofcomparison.
All right, well, now that you'veheard our perspectives, we want
to hear from you.
Are you a fan of watches?
Or maybe you think watches arecompletely superfluous.

(55:46):
Either way, do you think thelessons we've discussed could
apply to your practice of makingproducts?
Are there any important lessonswe've missed?
Let us know what you think atlearnmakelearn at gmail.
com.
Now, let's move on to ourrecommendations of the week and
I'll get us started.

(56:07):
And I figured, uh, given thetopic today of watches, I would,
highlight some good entrypoints, into the watch world if
it's a topic that you're,interested in getting into, but
maybe, um,, don't know muchabout it yet.
Interestingly, uh, you know,,not by intention, but my three
favorite watch media sources allhappened to be led by women.

(56:29):
unfortunately one of them, whichwas called the Tenn and two
podcast no longer exists.
Not because they didn't have anaudience, but because Both of
the show's hosts were hired intothe watch industry.
One was hired into a watch brandand the other joined actually a
worn and wound another of myfavorite watch media sites.
But the other tool of reference,um, and we'll provide links to

(56:52):
all of this in the show notesare both YouTube channels.
The first is Jenni Elle that'sher name and also the name of
her channel.
And the second is Brit Pearce,who's also known as Jenny.
Watch Gringa, um,, and they bothhost channels focused on watches
and What I like about them isthat I think they're very

(57:13):
welcoming to newcomers.
I think in the case of BrittPearce, she's relatively new to
the world of watches.
She's been, it talks about thatquite often.
And so I think that, Helps herto feel more welcoming, but
Jenni Elle has really deepexperience in the watch world,
uh, has been in that orbit forquite some time, and yet she

(57:34):
still has this great ability to,create content that feels very
welcoming, even to newcomers.
Um, at least personally, I findthat a lot of the male watch
content creators have this sortof, to put it somewhat crassly,
this sort of Tick measuringcontest energy, uh, that comes

(57:55):
through, um, and, I find thatJenni Elle and Britt Pearce
don't have that.
And, I think as a consequence, Ijust really enjoy their content.
And it's not just for newcomers.
they talk about, topics thatare, you know, Can be very geeky
as well.
They're very knowledgeable, butI think if you're getting
started, there are two reallygood entry points into the world

(58:18):
of watches.
So, Jenni Elle and Britt Pearceon YouTube.

Joachim (58:22):
Yeah.
Funnily enough, I think duringthe pandemic, everyone just
subscribed to every YouTubechannel they could find that to
keep themselves entertained.
I had a lot of watch YouTuberson my list.
But I have to say that JenniElle and Britt Pearce are the
only two YouTube channels that Istill, regularly watch and still
find entertaining.
I think that's the thing,especially Britt Pearce.

(58:43):
She just has great opinions Idon't agree with her and I love,
I love disagreeing with her andwatching her go off on
something.
I think one of the things that Ifound so funny recently was she
just loves this very specificreference of the Omega Seamaster
300.
It was such pure joy and didn'tcare what everyone else thought,
you know?
And, uh, it wasn't done for anyreason other than she just

(59:06):
really liked that watch.
So yeah, I like that.
I like them as well.

Ernest (59:10):
That's great.
I'm glad you're a fan too.
How about you?
What, um, what do you have forus this week?

Joachim (59:15):
Um, it's, almost the polar opposite of luxury
watches, but it's a site calleddead simple sites.
com.
It's an index for websites thatare really, really simple.
now I know There's a subcultureof web developers that are also
trying to get not only simplesites, but sites that have
incredibly tiny memoryfootprints.

(59:37):
I don't think this is what thisis about.
This is purely the aesthetic ofsimplicity and clarity um, and
so I found that a reallyinteresting directory because
the only unifying theme.
is the fact that these aremostly monochrome websites,
heavy on text, and because theunifying theme is purely
aesthetic, the websites coverall kinds of topics.

(59:59):
and it reminds me of the, oh, Isound like an old person now,
reminds me of the early days ofthe internet where people had
presences on the web that werevery personal, that were
websites, that were theirwebsites, and yeah, maybe they
were really crappy Geocitiestemplates, but there was still

(01:00:19):
something very personal andemotional that went into that.
And I find these indexes.
get back at that magic of theearly period where it wasn't all
walled gardens, and things thatwere so tightly controlled.
So that's my recommendation.
I put it out there as just areminder of what's possible with
the internet sometimes thatdoesn't involve being locked

(01:00:40):
into a platform.
Actually, total side note, butit encouraged me to revisit my
website and just strip awaythings and, and redo it.
Um, so I was, uh, inspired bythat.
So maybe others will be heretoo.

Ernest (01:00:53):
That's awesome.
I can't wait to take a look.
I hadn't heard of it before, soit's, I'm really glad you called
it out.
Alright, well I think that doesit for us.
Thank you so much for joining ushere at Learn Make Learn.
As we mentioned, we wanna hearfrom you, so please send any
questions or feedback tolearnmakelearn@gmail.com.
And tell your friends about us.

(01:01:13):
In our next episode, we're goingto discuss the concept known as
design thinking.
The famed design consultancyIDEO is credited with coming,
uh, coining the term.
So I'll reference theirdefinition.
Quote, design thinking is ahuman centered approach to
innovation that draws from thedesigner's toolkit to integrate

(01:01:33):
the needs of people, thepossibilities of technology and
the requirements for businesssuccess, unquote.
About a decade ago, designthinking was all the rage
amongst executives across thecorporate world.
As Rebecca Ackerman wrote in anexcellent piece for MIT
technology review, quote, designthinking took hold of the

(01:01:53):
collective imagination duringthe Obama years, a time when
American culture was riding highon the potential of a bunch of
smart people in a hope filledroom to bend history's arc
towards progress.
At the same time, consultants,consultancies like IDEO frog,
smart design, and others werealso promoting the idea that
anyone, including the executivespaying their fees, could be a

(01:02:17):
designer by just following theprocess.
Perhaps design had become quote,too important to leave to
designers unquote, as IDEO'sthen CEO, Tim Brown wrote in his
2009 book changed by design, howdesign thinking transforms
organizations and inspiresinnovation unquote.
But in recent years, the tideturned with many now describing

(01:02:39):
design thinking as a failedexperiment.
In fact, the Ackerman piece Icited just a minute ago is
titled design thinking wassupposed to fix the world.
Where did it go wrong?
So.
Cool.
Is design thinking a failedexperiment, or is there still
value in the concept so long asit's applied appropriately?

(01:03:00):
We'll share our own experiencesand perspectives on this topic
on the next Learn Make Learn.

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