February 3, 2025 • 63 mins
What if navigating the fast-paced world of automotive and construction equipment could unlock profound insights into leadership and adaptability? Troy Ottmer, a veteran of these industries, joins us to share his incredible journey from an automotive technician in 1987 to a seasoned leader and consultant. Troy’s career is a testament to the power of mentorship and the impact of embracing diverse perspectives. His experiences across various roles, from Rush Enterprises to John Deere, provide a unique lens through which we explore the evolution of leadership and workforce dynamics across generations.
Managing a multi-generational workforce presents both challenges and opportunities, and this episode sheds light on how flexibility and empowerment can transform workplace dynamics. We examine the importance of open communication and active listening in creating a harmonious environment and discuss the influence of rapid technological advancements. Troy’s personal anecdotes, together with stories from other sectors like animal science, highlight the excitement and hurdles of adapting to these changes, emphasizing how generational differences can be leveraged positively in the workplace.
Finally, the conversation turns to the critical role of education in building sustainable careers. We advocate for a pragmatic approach that aligns educational paths with workforce demands, spotlighting vocational and technical education as key players in this shift. By focusing on practical skills that offer tangible economic benefits, we underscore the importance of continuous learning and adapting to change. Whether you're navigating career transitions or seeking to empower the next generation, this episode is packed with insights and inspiration for embracing diverse career paths.
Visit us at LearningWithoutScars.org for more training solutions for Equipment Dealerships - Construction, Mining, Agriculture, Cranes, Trucks and Trailers.
We provide comprehensive online learning programs for employees starting with an individualized skills assessment to a personalized employee development program designed for their skill level.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Aloha and welcome to another Candid Conversation.
It's a real pleasure for metoday to introduce you to a
gentleman who's currently livingin Houston, texas, by the name
of Troy Otmer.
Troy and I met each other in aclassroom, I think, in Dallas
some 25 years ago roughly, andhe's one of the talented
(00:25):
individuals that I love beingaround.
That challenges me to staycurrent and to be able to defend
my positions, because he's notafraid to challenge me.
So with that as theintroduction, we're just going
to talk about his career, howit's evolved, the different
(00:45):
aspects of it.
He's worked in differentgeographies, different aspects
of the business, and I thinkyou'll find it fascinating.
So with that as theintroduction, troy, you ready
for this young man?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Good to see you.
Why don't we start with yougiving a thumbnail of your
history, from school to today?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Well, I originally went to automotive tech school
and started my career as anautomotive technician and update
myself a little bit, but allthe way back in 1987.
And it seems like yesterday insome respects when you look back
.
But then when you say it thatway, you go wow, a lot of time
(01:28):
has passed by and you know thatparticular career.
That was my passion, that wasmy desire growing up as a
youngster to be an autotechnician.
You know a lot of people callthem mechanics, some people
still do.
A lot of people call themmechanics, some people still do.
(01:51):
I tend to gravitate to thedirection to be more technical
rather than mechanical, becauseyou need both, naturally.
And that just kind ofleapfrogged from automotive to
medium duty oddly bus way backin that era as well, way back in
that era as well, and thenended into heavy duty and then
(02:11):
landed a unique opportunity togo to work for a John Deere
construction equipment dealerStuart and Stevenson at the time
and they were in the middle ofan acquisition by Rush
Enterprises all the way back in1997.
And once the dust settled onthe acquisition, I became part
of that team in 1998 with Rush.
And so you know, from theautomotive career into medium
(02:34):
duty to heavy duty, to JohnDeere construction equipment.
Then, you know, just work myway through the uh dealer
channel at at Rush and alldepartments started in uh parts,
even though I came from atechnician background.
Uh, a window open to go intothe parts department and I
(02:55):
thought, you know, you know hey.
I want to get an understandingof that department and really
wasn't a big fan of being aparts person.
But what I thought was anegative actually became a
positive and I started lookingat life in a little bit
different perspective.
like, hey, I'm going to be asponge and try to absorb as much
as I can as I go forward andjust kind of work my way through
(03:18):
it.
And that led into other aspectsof the dealership, not only
within the full scope of a partsdepartment.
Put me back in the servicedepartment, ended up in the
rental department and the salesdepartment and Caterpillar calls
(03:39):
them PSSRs, john Deere calledthem CSAs customer service
advisors Went out in the fieldselling.
You know what I would calltechnical sales, parts and
service.
And you know the real driversfor the back end of the
dealership and continued there.
I worked, you know, for Rushfor almost 14 years until they
sold the dealer to another groupand I went with that
(04:01):
acquisition, held variouspositions in the John Deere
dealer group organizations, allthe way from parts counter to
branch manager, general manager,director of parts service.
Publicly traded company out ofPittsburgh called Coppers, with
a K Coppers Inc.
And they were in acquisitionmode and, with my fleet
(04:40):
background and automotive andfield service management
background, along with thedealer background, they were
looking for someone to help themdo acquisitions and roll up a
variety of things into theirbusiness portfolio.
They're a chemical company.
They create railroad ties,creosote railroad ties.
They do a variety of things.
They were putting everythingback together as a circle of
life.
You sell a railroad tie out,you take a railroad tie back in,
(05:01):
you reprocess it, you repurposeit into a different application
in this case, biomass fuel,work with power plants, paper
mills, anything with a boiler toburn these type of fuels,
co-gen plants.
And I did that from 2017 until2000, the latter part of 20.
(05:23):
And that was a good exposure.
I've lived in Michigan a handfulof years for Rush and I
traveled to Michigan and manyother states over the years for
a variety of businessopportunities and it's just been
a fabulous opportunity.
And then I returned to Rush atthe end of 2020 and helped them
(05:44):
with a project of bringingtogether their medium duty bus
and towing group into a newproject that they were looking
at doing.
And you know it ended you knowreally well with a good time for
me to transition into theconsulting realm and I want to
(06:06):
help people.
You know, like you've helpedpeople.
When you and I first met allthose years ago and you know,
and you've been a great mentorto me, I followed your career
and we bumped heads on a fewthings here and there and
disagreed on a few things andhelped each other see the world
from different perspectives, andyou know, and and that's kind
of why we're talking today solet's you know, you're roughly
(06:30):
20 years younger with 20 yearsless experience.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yes, that's right and no, no, that's not a bad thing,
no thing.
But as we look over the countryand we look at the, let's stay
with dealer, automotive, county,municipality, education, the
(06:58):
men and women that are leadingthe dealerships today, and let
me put them in their late 30s.
I'm in the late 70s, you'relate 50s, they're in the late
30s.
Tell me what you see with them.
That's different than what youand I had when we are in the
(07:19):
business.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
You know, the workforce is uniquely different
today than anything that any ofus have ever experienced and, at
least in my opinion, you knowthe Gen Zs, the Gen Ys or
millennials, whichever way theygo.
I get them all confused.
I'm a Gen Xer and such, I'm aGen Xer and such.
(07:56):
But you know the challengeswith young leaders today and I
say challenges and that soundsas a negative, but I'll explain
their ability to lead is notnecessarily worse or better,
it's different and it'softentimes misunderstood.
And that's been one of thestruggles with some of the
projects I've worked on.
For you know, in the lastdecade, for you know three,
(08:19):
actually four differentcompanies, I've really helped
make some significant changemanagement decisions and a lot
of times those are very painful.
And the difference between youknow, your generation, the
boomers, right, you know, is thetype of work, ethic, right, and
there's a natural assumptionthat the younger generations
don't necessarily want to workand there may be some truth to
(08:41):
that.
But what I've found is being inmy late 50s, if you can stay
relevant to that generation'sperspective, what they're
looking for, you practiceintentional listening.
Now, my intentional listeningfor you would be different than
(09:01):
a 38-year-old or a 28-year-old,right?
You would be different than a38 year old or a 28 year old.
Right, I'm catering mylistening style to the audience
I'm speaking with and if it'sdifferent people in the room
you're going to, you're going toflip back and forth routinely
as you have these conversations,because these, these youngsters
, will challenge you, sometimesin ways that make no sense and
(09:24):
for the older participantssometimes it can come across as
insubordination or condescendingattitude or just complete
dismissal.
Likewise, it's interesting tosay the young generation.
When you really get down in theweeds with them, they'll say
(09:44):
look, you older people don'treally want to listen, you don't
care what I think You'recondescending, you dismiss it.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Stop there for a second, because I believe that's
completely true.
The older, there's still peoplethat are in the generation that
preceded mine, the baby boomersand as baby boomers, we were
children raised by people thatgrew up in the Depression and
(10:16):
experienced a war that coloredeverything that they did.
Everything that they did was toprotect the family, whether
it's earnings, whether it'sathletics, whether it's church,
whatever.
It is Right and that's gone.
(10:38):
And it's not a work ethic issueas much as it's an expectation
issue.
Correct, both you and I can doevery job that's involved in
anything that we're involvedwith the dealer on and that's
off-putting to a lot of people.
(10:58):
I've often said to people youreally don't want me to do your
job for you?
Do you really don't want me todo your job for you?
Do me, do you?
One of the things that HarryTruman was famous for is not
just the buck stops here, butthe one I like the best is if I
have to do your job for you, Ireally don't need you.
Correct, right, and your yourcomment that the younger people
(11:18):
don't think we pay attention tothem or don't listen to them or
don't treat them seriously.
I think the older generationsare determining strategy for
their businesses.
And in the American businesscommunity, every year there's
surveys on the success thatcompanies have of implementing
(11:41):
their strategy and the averagenumber over the last 30 years or
so has been 10%.
In other words, 90% don't do it, don't get it done.
And to me, the biggest failurethere is again in survey data.
If you ask the employees of acompany to say what the strategy
is, they can't tell you Correct.
(12:02):
And that's the listening andcommunication thing and that's
what leadership's job is.
Yes, so when the folks say youdon't listen to me, I believe
they're right, and the surveyson successfully implementing
change or realizing success on astrategy indicate that they're
(12:24):
right realizing success on astrategy indicate that they're
right.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Well, and to step in and add to that, in one of your
recent podcasts with anotherindividual you guys were talking
about you know interactionswith employees and one of the
just takeaways was why do youwait till the exit interview to
try to figure out why they'releaving?
And it's too late.
What were you not doing alongthe way up to that point?
Speaker 1 (12:53):
right, yeah, I remember that discussion, and
one of the things that was inthat discussion as well is I
like to have a guy, an employee,a guy a gal.
After three months, four months, I want them to come and tell
me you know, what do we do thatyou think is absolutely a waste
of time?
What do you see that we shouldbe doing that we're not Because
(13:16):
they got fresh eyes?
Yes, and we don't.
Hardly anybody asks thatquestion and we don't hardly
anybody ask that question.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Well, leaders are.
In some cases people will,let's just say, managers.
You know managing and leadingthey're one in the same, but
they're not, and you knowmanaging people is.
You know it has nuances thatyou still have to do.
Yeah, we have to manage ourbusiness, but my philosophy is
(13:46):
I'd rather lead my business.
I'd rather give the people thatI work with on the team the
latitude and flexibility, trust,empowerment to do their job and
, more importantly, always bewilling to have an open door
policy and get their feedback.
Look, pushback criticismconstructive criticism
(14:08):
oftentimes gets, you know,cluttered in with
insubordination, and oftentimesthat's where managers that
aren't really paying attentionto what matters most get
themselves in a pinch.
And you know, when someonecomes in my office and says, hey
, I got a problem, or they'repretty hot right, they're
(14:29):
frustrated, maybe not mad at me,they just got a situation.
First question I ask is youknow, depending on the scenario,
if it's an emergency or aninjury, then hey, what's going
on right?
But in a general, regular,emotional moment, hey, what
would you like to do about thething you just brought to me?
What do you think the bestthing to do is?
(14:49):
And you get this weird looksometimes like you really want
to know what I think, andsometimes they'll say that you
really want to know.
Absolutely, I do want to know,I want to understand what you
see and why you the way you seeit, and maybe we can't do it the
way you want.
Then I'll take the time and tryto explain the corporate reason
(15:13):
, because there may be somelegal or ethical or process
reasons.
We can't do something.
But oftentimes you'll find anugget or two of information
that you can use and I say itthat way, a nugget or two
because it is like there'slittle bits and pieces that you
can pull together and when thatperson leaves, they hopefully
leave better than they came tothe party.
(15:35):
Right, and that really is themotivation and I bring that up
because older people my age,your age in between, possibly
even older than you are stayingin the workforce or coming back
into the workforce for a varietyof reasons.
Maybe it's not even financial,maybe in some cases it's because
(15:58):
they don't want to sit at homeand stare at the wall or watch
tv all day.
So now you have this mixture of80, 70, and 60-year-olds
starting to work with 20 and30-year-olds, and on the surface
that seems like it could be aproblem, but in the right
environment, with the rightfocus and right understanding,
(16:19):
right listening skills.
And in the previousconversation you and I mentioned
predictive index.
A lot of companies are usingthe PI and some of them use it
incorrectly and they take it asthe whole truth and nothing but
the truth and that's the finalanswer based on the results that
come out of that inquiry.
But if you use that or othersimilar technologies or methods
(16:40):
as a tool, you can find thatthis unique workforce that we
have can be very effective intoday's world, today's economy,
especially the post-pandemicworld, because we've all went
through some craziness that noneof us have ever experienced
before.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
You know you take the 60, 70, 80-year-olds and when's
the last time they went to aschool and had some learning?
When's the last time they tooka class outside of the OEM stuff
?
Right, it's non-existent.
I used to start almost all myclasses with when's the last
(17:18):
time you read a book?
And that's shameful.
Yes, sir, yeah so we get intothis situation and that's
shameful.
Yes, sir, yeah, so we get intothis situation.
So we're talking 60, 70, 80with 20-year-olds, that's your
grandchildren.
I've got a 23-year-old and a19-year-old grandchild and I'm
(17:40):
78.
And I have more fun with thosetwo suckers than you can imagine
.
They're both hardworking,they're both disciplined.
They're both hardworking,they're both disciplined,
they're both smart, they bothhave unique skills.
My granddaughter is teachingtwo classes at an undergraduate
level and running two labs forthe school in animal science,
which isn't veterinary science.
It's a completely different gigand she's over the moon with
(18:05):
excitement about it and herstudents love her.
And a year ago we're talkingabout would you like to teach,
would you like to get yourdoctorate?
And she said no, I don't need adoctorate, because the only
place that's worthwhile is ifyou teach at the university.
Now maybe I should get adoctorate pumping, but I have no
(18:27):
clue what she's going to do.
The interesting thing aboutlife today for the younger
people is technology is comingat us fast and furious.
Yes, my writings how I used themetaphor of the steam engine in
1880 being replaced by theelectric energy, and it took a
(18:48):
energy engine and it took ageneration before the engine was
properly utilized, withdifferent methods and processes
and and metrics.
And I just put something up.
In the last couple of years Iwent back to 1950 and looked at
technological changes by thedecade and different people
(19:09):
could have used different things.
But my point with it is every10 years, for the last 70, 80
years, we've come up withsomething that's pretty damn
major.
Yeah true, and it scared thebejesus out of everybody.
They don't know how to dealwith it because they can't keep
up with it.
It happened to me.
I was trained at university indata processing, computer
(19:35):
science, unit record equipment.
My God, I wired that stuff.
I'm a dinosaur.
And I was brought into theStates to run a software company
and in the late 80s I had togive up trying to keep up with
it because it was changing toofast.
It was taking too much of mytime.
I said screw it, I'm not goingto deal with that anymore.
(19:55):
I had a social workerinteracting with me over the
last month or so and I talkedabout careers and how we were
going to have to retool societyand she said don't worry about
it, ron, they're going to haveroughly eight to 10 year careers
(20:16):
and they might go in acompletely different direction.
Which takes me to my grandson,who's the smartest in the family
by a long shot.
I hope he doesn't hear this.
That'll go right to his head,but he's going to have nuclear
engineering and astrophysicsmaster's degrees by the time
he's 20.
Wow, and I'm serious.
(20:40):
He's quite extraordinary andthank God he's in the Navy.
Thank God, that's true, becauseall of his friends from high
school he's still involved with.
They're at universities, PartyTime, usa, cocaine babes,
everything right, right.
And his grandson would be rightthere with him.
Thank God he's got the Navykeeping him so damn busy he
doesn't have anything to do.
(21:00):
Well, this kid makes clothingon a sewing machine, is involved
in makeup, wants to own arestaurant, he's a hell of a
cook, plays the piano andkeyboards I mean there's.
So I say to him what are yougoing to do when you grow up?
He said I haven't got any clue.
It's just like you, poppy,where you keep saying to me you
(21:20):
don't know what you're going todo when you grow up, to your
point of people coming back intothe workforce.
The job has defined the person.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
And when they retire, they don't know who they are.
And isn't that a horrible thing?
I've said to people for yearsyou've probably heard it out of
my mouth you retire to something, not from something Correct.
Yes, you haven't got somethingto retire to, don't retire,
right?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
well, that's very true and that's with the older
generation that has come backinto the workforces for me that
I've dealt with in the last 10years or so, back into the
workforces for me that I'vedealt with in the last 10 years
or so.
That is predominantly thephrase they use when they come
into interview.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, I don't know who I am anymore.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, and I would add too, on the looking back at
well, I've moved in theindustrial distribution space
has been my career for 38 yearsor so, because that's where
automotive, trucking,construction equipment and it
fits other spaces too.
(22:33):
But that wording is the bestapplication and even when I
worked on the customer side,which is twice during that 38
years, I got about 10 to 12years of the 38 are related to
being a customer, so dealingwith a dealer as a customer, and
(22:54):
so I found this perspectivethat I've had.
I can see both sides and I canunderstand the dealer side.
Look, I want a fair deal, butat the same time I also know
that paying that low price perhour but it takes six months to
get my tractor rebuilt, whereasthe dealer is a high price per
hour and I get it back in threemonths Well, my uptime
(23:16):
utilization that's far morecost-effective to do and being
able to navigate that on bothsides of that conversation, I
still utilize that skill setlearned over time.
So what I'm driving at is, eventhough the technologies have
changed and you're right thesestep function improvements that
we've seen with technology.
(23:39):
It's coming fast and it'salmost I would even challenge in
some applications, especiallywith AI.
You know, and a lot of peoplethink AI is a brand new thing in
the last 12 months.
No, it's been in the backgroundfor a while in a lot of
different forms and fashion.
And you know, and one of thechallenges is this technology
(24:03):
changes so quickly.
Some of the older generation, alot of people, just naturally
assume they're not willing tojump on board with technology.
And I have found that the oldergeneration to be more in tune
with the adaptability to currenttechnology than you would
expect.
(24:23):
So being dismissive to thatparticular labor market or labor
pool is a mistake, and it'shard to find people that want to
work in dealers or a frontfacing business where you've got
to come to an office every dayand you hear Amazon and all
these other big companies makingdemands You're coming back to
(24:44):
the office or you're fired,right?
Look, remote work does exist ina lot of ways and with the one
company Coppers I mentioned, alot of my work was remote.
I was moving around on anairplane, I'm working out of a
hotel.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
I did have an office but I was not in it as often as
I was somewhere else and it canbe done.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
It's not for everybody.
But the application oftechnology like look at you and
I we're on a Zoom call and yeah,we had a little bit of Zoom
snafu getting this to work today, but sometimes that happens but
for the most part thistechnology is very forgiving,
very easy to use and I thinkthat's where, when you're hiring
(25:26):
and you're in the dealer world,going specifically to that, I
think there's a good balancethat I'm starting to see across
the dealers, whether it's truckor automotive or construction,
forestry or even ag and you andI were chatting earlier, john
Deere Ag is well ahead of a lotof other of their peers out
(25:50):
there and you know, and theykind of set the example.
They don't get it right all thetime either, but when you look
back historically at what theydid, where they came from and
kind of a lot of the thingswe're talking about today
electrification I was working onJohn Deere products as a
committee advisor with JohnDeere on EV projects and or
(26:12):
products.
While we were doing interimtier four and final tier four
preparation, there were EVthings that I was consulting on
as a deer dealer.
You know I couldn't talk aboutthem way back in the day because
there was NDAs and such.
But today that's commonplace EV.
Look at that.
So bringing this all together,it's kind of a perfect storm in
(26:37):
a good way.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Yeah, it's unbelievable.
There's a test dealer inSaskatchewan, about an hour and
a half south of Saskatoon, thatwas a client of mine and John
Deere used them for testing,planting and harvesting
equipment, were looking at fromthe satellite, evaluating the
(27:07):
soil, nutrients, moisturecontent, and had in the hopper
at the back of the planterdifferent seeds depending on
what that field needed, and itwas planted by air to a specific
depth depending on what thesatellite said.
The guy who was in the machineand I'm assuming at the moment
there was a guy in the machinedidn't have anything to do with
(27:28):
it.
He just had to make sure he wasdriving straight and then to
take that further.
We're talking in Saskatchewan tofarms that are 40,000 acres
80,000 acres.
They're run by religious sectswhich you know, like the Amish
in the States, is a little bitscary for a lot of people
because we don't understand it.
(27:49):
But what those people would dois they'd buy a machine, they'd
use it for the particular season, then they'd give it back.
So this particular dealer wasmaking a fortune on used
equipment that had maybe $500 onit, sold into the States where
there was a 30% premium incurrency and life is very good.
(28:12):
Thank you very much.
And you know so, there's abusiness model that hardly
anybody would want to look at.
But the thing that makes, Ithink, you different than the
guys today and I use thisanalogy all the time the
conductor is the only musicianthat has his back to the
customer, whose success istotally dependent not on their
(28:35):
interaction with the customerbut their interaction with their
team in front of them.
They bring the music Together.
The orchestra and the conductordetermine the mood that I try
and deliver.
That with.
But the music's, the music's,the music, and Beethoven has not
(28:57):
changed and Chopin has notchanged.
But I'll still pry my eyes out,depending on how the thing is
presented.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, and you know, funny note I'd like to say on
the tractors you mentioned, backin the early 90s when, as I
transitioned into fleetmanagement, the company I worked
for they were a large dirtcontractor and those tractors
you referenced, we were buyingStigers etc.
(29:28):
We were buying those that wereone or two years old, just like
that, one season maybe, maybetwo max.
We were buying those.
Those became our scrapertractors pulling either two or
three pans, whatever the mode ofoperation was.
And it's interesting, we'venever talked about that, but
it's kind of weird that ourpaths kind of have crossed in
(29:50):
different ways with who we'vetouched in our careers.
And the second thing I wouldsay is going back, as your
reference to the conductor, asyou referenced to the conductor,
regardless of the leadershipposition I'm in, whether it's
dealer world, whether it'scustomer world, fleet operations
, what have you?
plant operations, biomassproduction that conductor's job
(30:13):
is essentially the same.
Your customer may be different,your customer interaction may
be different, but the conductoryou're right has his back to the
customer generally.
Your customer interaction maybe different, but the conductor
you're right has his back to thecustomer generally.
Where I have learned is toreally do my best, is to help
influence the creativity of eachindividual and see how those
(30:33):
teams interact.
And look sometimes you have badteams.
Oftentimes you have bad leadersright or bad managers.
You got to sort through thatand I'll be the first to admit
I've not got every hiringdecision right either, and
occasionally it happens.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
But you.
The hardest job in anyenterprise is hiring.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
It's a beauty contest .
Yes, so this predictive indexand DISC and Briggs-Myers and
(31:30):
all that stuff is the back of myhand and has been for 40 years,
which makes me quite different,actually.
But then the other thing thatwas different, troy, is that I
swam competitively Okay, and Ilearned at a very young age.
It's not about me competingwith anybody else, it's about me
competing with myself, andthat's a tough lesson.
(31:50):
And then the final thing iswe're raised in a manner in
which we're taught to beobedient.
Our parents are protecting us.
Don't put your hand on thestove.
Look both ways before you crossthe street.
And at some point in time inthe growth process teenage years
the teenager pushes back andsaid yeah, who are you?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
You don't know anything.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
I know better than you, and so now it becomes a
competition, right?
So the parent-child is acompetition, the old style
management, and you wanted todraw a distinction between
leader and manager, and I agree100%.
You don't manage people, youlead people, and manager is a
(32:35):
hyphenated word.
It's a man-ager and I don'tmean to be sexist because it's a
female ager too but we get outinto the marketplace and we
don't know how to do this.
You're obedient in the family.
You're obedient at school.
You're obedient when you gethired.
(32:55):
You're trained how to do thejob.
Don't look over the wall, justdo more of it, make fewer
mistakes and you're going to befine.
We've broached artificialintelligence, one of our
contributors who's got a coupleof PhDs, economics and history
taught at Northwestern.
21 bestsellers, new York Timespretty sharp guy.
(33:18):
He says by 2030, and we argueabout the specific date but by
2030, 50% of the Americanworkforce, that's 75 million
people will not have the skillsto be employable, correct, so go
back to that social worker.
That's what the genesis was, orthe seed was of the discussion
(33:39):
we were having.
How's society going to functionwhen 75 million people are
carrying 350?
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Oh yeah, tough.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
It's a different world, babe.
Well, and on that note, oneschool district that I'm
actually working with and I'm aproduct, just to clarify before
I go into that I'm a product of,just to clarify before I go
into that, I'm a product of thevocational technical program.
So my original path was not togo to college and that didn't
set well with family.
(34:11):
But hey, I'm hard-headed, Iknow everything at that age,
right, and so I went a differentpath and for me that path was
the best path late.
But as I was going along thatjourney, on that path, I did
realize that I did need thatother education along the way.
So I continued down that pathas life went on and then you
(34:34):
know it's a.
It's a different journey thanjust jumping out of high school
and four years of college or acouple more years for a master's
, this, that and the other.
But when I was talking withthese high school level so
junior or, excuse me, sophomores, juniors and or seniors that
(34:54):
are in either welding tech,diesel tech or auto tech
programs and they spread out,but that's the basics tech
programs and they spread out,but that's the basics, you know
it's.
I talk about the employabilityof the future workforce and the
critical nature of why technicaland vocational skills should
not be dismissed as unimportant,and I talk a lot with
(35:15):
counselors as well about that.
And you know I'm starting tosee in some schools and I know
this is a, I'm probably tryingto change too much at once, but
it's a slow curve I'm startingto see that their schools are
starting to figure that out that, hey, not everybody's going to
go to a four-year graduateprogram or any type of you know,
(35:38):
postgraduate degree, but theone year or two year associate
level technical programs are alot of value.
So you see, you can see a shift.
But I do talk a lot about thatand the employability of the
future workforce, or rather, asI say, it said in one of my most
recent conversations, the lackthereof the lack thereof.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
It's really remarkable, I'm going to say.
Since the 60s, society inAmerica has said get a degree
and you'll be fine.
My grandmother got a master'sin 1915.
She spoke fluently in Greek andLatin, smart like hell.
She was the oldest of threegirls and her father treated her
(36:23):
like his son, and my parentsboth worked.
So I had the pleasure of beingraised by my grandmother for the
first three or four years of mylife, which I think is a
wonderful thing.
A parent-child relationship iscompetitive.
A grandparent-grandchildrelationship is just love,
correct, Yep, and you've heardme say this.
(36:47):
Anybody asks me a questiontoday that they want me to do
something.
I'll say yes, because itconfuses the hell out of them.
Now it doesn't mean that I'msaying yes to what they're
asking me for.
I might have to have adiscussion so I better
understand what it is they'relooking for and they better
understand what they're lookingfor.
Fair.
(37:07):
But there's very few people.
That's why I like chatting withyou.
There's very few people likeyou today that are able to
implement change.
So that goes back to leadershipagain and management.
Our job function as a leader isimplementing change period, and
(37:31):
we're terrible at it.
We don't want to do it.
We've got an equilibrium insociety.
We've got peace and tranquilityin the company.
We're not fighting with eachother and we don't want to
challenge that.
And the older you get, the moreyou want to protect the status
quo, because you're scared todeath that you change something.
You're going to screw it upBecause you don't know what the
(37:53):
job is anymore.
So go down to the 30-year-old,the 20 years younger than you.
They can't do the job like youused to be and they have no
interest in trying to do the job.
And they go from metrics, theygo from KPIs.
They're all wonderful andthat's all past tense.
(38:16):
That has nothing to do withtomorrow, correct.
And when you sit down and youpoke I love doing this I get a
group of guys mostly guys andwe'll have four or five or six
and we'll have a Zoom call andwe'll just have a discussion and
I like to teach in what iscalled the Socratic method.
(38:37):
I don't answer questions, I askthem.
I'm trying to get you to cometo the conclusion yourself,
because I'm not just teachingthe curriculum, I'm teaching you
how to teach yourself, so youdon't need me in the future.
It's a lifelong skill.
Versus you know, I know how toadd and subtract.
And I had a guy.
I took mathematics and physicsas my majors and I was part of
(39:00):
an honors program with computerscience and statistics as my
minors and we all had a guy onheat and thermodynamics in our
second year and the passinggrade was 18, and it didn't mark
on a curve and I failed.
And one person passed and itwas a woman.
(39:23):
She was by far the smartestperson in the class.
It was amazing.
So we go to this guy.
He's got a PhD in appliedphysics, a concert pianist and
he's 28 years old and he saidwait a second what are you
trying to do to me?
So I'm only here to teach thepeople that are capable.
And what a crock of crap.
(39:47):
We went to the dean, the deansupported the next year he was
gone, but in the meantime all ofus I don't know, there was
about maybe 20.
I don't know the exact number.
We weren't in the honorsprogram anymore, we were
majoring in this stuff.
That didn't hurt my feelingsbecause you know, it became
pretty clear very, very quicklyto me, Troy, that an experience
and a history of being able tofind a solution not always, but
(40:08):
down there most of the time-well and you know you bring up a
good point with you know thatparticular professor you
(40:30):
mentioned a lot of managers andso-called leaders approach it in
a similar fashion.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Right, I've heard general managers, I've heard VPs
and I've heard this personally.
I've seen it, you know, had tohelp correct it where they'll
come in.
And hey, for you folks thatdon't have a college degree,
you'll never get promoted,you'll never be successful,
you'll never make money whatever.
(40:59):
And you know, and itdemotivates people to the point
where you know, it's even toxicto the people with degrees,
because what they don't realizeis is the underlying impact it
has on the entire workforce,regardless of your academic
status.
And you know what my preferenceis is what you just said is hey
(41:22):
, tell me what the problem isand let's see where it takes us.
What is the root cause of theissue and what do you find along
the way?
And if I go into, say, a partsdepartment to do an evaluation,
I'm going to look, listen, learn, do a lot more looking,
listening and learning, askquestions, give you know, unless
(41:44):
the building's on fire, I'm notgoing to give a lot of
directives.
Initially, I'm going to absorb,but more importantly, I'm going
to get to know the players whothey are, and I'm not just going
to focus on the parts manager,assistant parts manager or what
have you.
I'm going to focus on all theplayers equally, of course.
But you know, and then youfigure out what the real dynamic
(42:05):
is and you know people,companies say, hey, I want to.
I want to improve our cultureOK.
Well, that's very vague andambiguous.
Or, hey, I want to improve myparts turns OK.
Or I want to improve my partsturns Okay.
Or I want to improve my deadinventory Get that out of here
Okay.
Again, those are very specificon the surface, but when you
really get down in the weeds, asyou know that, you can open up
(42:29):
Pandora's box and you may regretthat.
And oftentimes you know, youfigure out that there's a lot
more to some of these people.
And the initial assessmentwould be and I've taken over
projects where they say, hey,this person needs to go, that
person needs to go, and I say,hey, like, let me make my own
decisions, let me do myevaluation and figure this out
(42:50):
and nine times out of 10, mostof the people on the surface
that they said need to go, theydon't need to go.
What they need is guidance,they need understanding, they
need tutoring, they needmentoring, and I want to empower
people.
Hey, okay, I'm the generalmanager, I'm the VP, I'm the
(43:11):
parts manager, whatever my titleis.
Congratulations to me.
Now, let me hang that on thewall.
Now let's get our hands dirtyand go figure out how this parts
department is failing and, moreimportantly, you guys can't be
failing at everything.
So where are you succeeding?
Let's figure that out and youknow it's a very methodical
(43:33):
approach but it's also a littlebit loose, where you just nature
has to take its course to somedegree.
Again, the buildings on fireaddress it, but the rest of it
you, you evaluate and you'vedone far more evaluations of
dealer groups and other businessunits than I have.
But you know, you know I'veworked in these environments and
(43:54):
and in and around places you'vetouched and done evaluations on
and you know you've seen thosethings too, I'm sure, where you
know, oftentimes it may be thedealer principle that's actually
the problem.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
In many cases it is.
You know, we had I started inQuebec and a company was named
Hewitt Equipment.
It was founded by Bob Hewittand two of his brothers.
Bob was the vice president ofsales for the Caterpillar dealer
in Ontario, the next provinceover.
When I became data processingmanager, we had three sets of
(44:30):
books one for Bob, one for themanagers in the company and one
for his two brothers.
Then we had another one for themanagers in the company and one
for his two brothers, and thenwe had another one for the
government and I asked him aboutthat.
I said we've got three sets ofbooks here.
(44:52):
I understand what you're doing,but is that what you really
want to do?
And he looked at me and hesmiled.
He says I'm not going to tellmy brothers what the hell's
going on over here.
They'll start interfering.
Right I'm looking over myshoulder the management.
He said I do want to tell themhow well they're doing.
(45:14):
And we had a once a year meetingthat was called Profitable
Development for Quebec, whichgot initiated to PDQ, and we'd
start on a Thursday night.
We'd go out of town there wasmaybe 100 men, all men.
There's no women at that timeand we'd meet Friday, saturday
and Sunday and we gotunbelievable amounts of things
(45:37):
done because the salvation ofcommunication was present every
night.
Everybody drank and inhibitionsdisappeared.
Yeah, and you know I'm notadvocating that you get into the
booze or anything, but ithappens.
But I want people to be able tosay to me whatever the hell
(46:00):
they want.
I had a client in Moscow oneyear.
The guy was in his late 30s,had a master's degree, a parent
of three children and I had.
My standard question is isthere anything that you would
like to do that would make yourjob easier and the company more
money.
And he looked me straight inthe face and said don't ask
questions like that, just tellme what you want me to do, and
(46:22):
that's the Russian Federation.
Well, we're not in the RussianFederation, and the people that
are doing the job should be theones that know how to do that
job better than anybody else,and anybody who's interested in
making things better thatdoesn't ask is stupid.
And so you know we've we'vegone down those paths.
(46:46):
And here comes Mike Rowe, dirtyjobs, yep.
And you know that we do a lotof education now and and you can
get an associate's degree withthis.
I'm a couple of courses shortto be able to give you a
bachelor's degree, but we haveabout 110 academic credits you
(47:07):
can earn with us.
I've got schools that representus, but a school model is 25
years and old and down on acampus with a syllabus, and if
they're over a certain age,they're not interested in what
(47:27):
we offer, because we're offering16 to 76.
Correct.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
The people that are out there working and we're now
getting certain states thatwe're getting the state to
reimburse the tuition costsbased on the student taking it
and passing, meaning theeducation from us is free.
My grandson, I mentioned to you, wanted to get a nuclear
engineering degree and he wantedto go to Purdue and he was
(47:52):
accepted.
He was happy as a clam.
And we're sitting talking aboutit six months after 17, and
we're chatting about this.
He said, bobby, it's $350,000for my degree.
Wow, even with all myscholarships, it's $170,000.
I'm not doing that, I can'tafford to do that.
And if you think about society,student loans is right up there
(48:14):
with car loans and mortgages.
It's actually the largestsingle debt that people have
today in America.
Right, it's delayed.
All manner of things Homepurchases, family development,
child it's unbelievable.
So I would go into a company, Iwould do a review, they'd pay me
for a review, I'd give them afinal report and it basically
(48:39):
had a bunch of to-dos andfinancial management
justifications, all the rest.
And I would ask them and you'veheard me say this I would ask
them okay, have you got peoplein mind that could implement
this for you?
And they said yeah.
So three months, six monthslater, being the pretty face
that I am, I would call and sayhow are you making out?
Well, we haven't started yet,we're too busy.
And after about a year and ahalf or so of that, I started
(49:02):
saying to them have you gotanybody in mind for this?
And they would say yes, or, ifyou're interested, I could do it
for you.
And then all of a sudden Ibecame busier than I could
manage.
You know, and the same thing isstill true today.
But people say it's because ofthe price of the machine.
(49:24):
In Canada there's twoCaterpillar dealers.
Today there were 10.
When I started.
In America, there were 50Caterpillar dealers.
When I started there might be20 today.
Dealers when I started, theremight be 20 today.
So that consolidation has beenblamed on the price of machinery
(49:47):
.
The dealer in the supply chainis at risk.
I believe they will be gone inthe next 10 to 15 years and it's
because of their own inactivity.
How many dealers do you knowthat allow the customer to order
parts online or theirtechnicians to order parts from
the bay?
Speaker 2 (50:07):
They fight it.
They still fight it.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
I know and you know, I've been blessed with all kinds
of experiences that I couldn'thave scripted.
That helped me get to the skillset if you can call it that
that I have, or the experiencesthat I have.
Younger people aren't gettingthat today.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Well, to that point, ron, you know the two dealers
that I've worked with, doggettand Rush, through my career.
They they're both forwardthinking and want their
technicians to work moreefficiently, not walk from one
end of the shop to the partsdepartment and back and forth,
and they want their customers tobuy from them through all means
(50:52):
available and online, telephone, et cetera.
And in both companies you knowcompanies, you know I'm not
biased to either one, but I callout you know, hey, they're
forward thinking, they got theiract together and that's respect
and you can see the fruits ofthat effort.
You know as it's worked out andI've seen it firsthand with
(51:13):
both companies.
And you know I haven't beenwith Doggett since 2017, and I
follow them on LinkedIn, theirwebsite.
I still know quite a few peoplethere.
They're one of the premier Johndealers in the United States
today.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
Well, and Rush is in the same category.
You were with a very impressivedealer, premier right.
And you know when I say thatthe dealer's at risk, the only
parts business they're going tohave risk, the only parts
business they're going to haveunless they get with the program
, is what other people don'thave.
That's right, yeah.
(51:45):
And when you look at Napa,which is owned by Genuine Parts,
which is owned by GeneralMotors, ford, chrysler, blah,
blah, blah, a publicly tradedcompany that has an average
gross margin of 38.3%.
The dealers don't get that much.
(52:06):
I remember a very good dealerin the Northeast.
One of the things that I'mreally a pain in the butt about
is inventory turnover, becausethat drives pricing.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Yes, it does.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
But it drives pricing .
And they were really braggingand saying, jesus, you know,
we're really good.
We got six, seven, eight timesturnover, depending on the store
.
I said, really, that's what doyou think?
Where were you?
Oh, we were one and a half, twoand a half, like everybody else
in the industry, and I saidwell, how long does it take you
to get a stock order anymore?
(52:40):
They said, well, maybe threedays.
And I said well, why do youneed the other 57 days of
inventory?
And they looked because if I'mturning the inventory six times,
I've got 60 days supply.
And they looked at me and saidwhat do you mean supply?
(53:02):
And they looked at me and saidwhat do you mean?
Well, you've got.
Why isn't your turnover 12times?
Only carry 30 days supplyinstead of 60?
.
Is the service level going to godown?
Well, yeah, it might.
Yeah, because of abnormaldemand or because of a factory
shortage, there are finitenumbers of reasons.
And they said, well, what doyou think our turnover should be
?
I said north of 20.
And they almost choked and theowner's looking at me saying do
(53:29):
you realize what my return oninventory would be then?
30% gross, turning at 20 times,that's 600%.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
I mean hello, and you can do that in every aspect of
the business, includingequipment sales.
So that, contractor, youmentioned that you bought one
year and two year old machinesthey were ahead of the curve
because, the value of the asset.
Like cars, you drive it off theparking lot.
It's 35% cheaper.
Right there, yep, I've hadVolvos and I haven't had a Volvo
(54:03):
that had less than 300,000miles on it.
What's this nonsense about?
Every 40,000, we change the car.
That's society.
That's who we are as people.
We're competing with ourneighbors.
I want to be better than you.
I want to have more than you.
It has nothing to do with moreor better.
Are you happy, correct?
And the younger generation aremuch smarter because they're
(54:26):
focusing on that.
My granddaughter calls it quiet, quitting.
I'm only going to give you asmuch work as I need to do to
keep my job and get my pay,because I'm not interested in
what I'm doing.
I'm going to have a hell of alot more fun when I'm outside of
the job.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Well, and that my wife works in corporate
insurance.
She's in big insurancebrokerage and that is one of the
.
We routinely talk about thatand about the younger generation
and how they work and webalance things off of each other
and one of the things that'scommon is we have to be very
(55:03):
task-specific to these youngergenerations.
So during that window thatthey're willing to give you and
you've got to target their skillset, their capabilities, how
they focus, how they listen andthe approach.
The old adage everybody got tobe treated the same still stands
, but that's not reality.
(55:25):
Everybody's treated the samerelative to their own uniqueness
and and the.
Speaker 1 (55:30):
And the problem with you're absolutely right.
And the problem with that ismost of us don't realize or
don't understand how todetermine Correct.
The things that I try and dowith our company is I want to
help people identify what theirpersonal and professional
potential is.
Yes, correct, and that's noteasy, that's scary.
And if we get to the point ofunderstanding what that
(55:53):
potential is, then I throw mycrazy comments out.
If somebody tells you you got alot of potential, you're 16
years old, congratulations, thisis really good, you're going to
have a good life.
But if that same person saysthe same thing to you and you're
66, you have to say what thehell have I done for the last 50
years?
And that's life.
We get busy doing other thingsand we lose sight of what we
(56:18):
should be doing.
And the younger generation, Ithink, are much more in tune
with that than my generation.
When I came out of school itwas 1968 and it was a tough time
to get a job.
I wanted to work for IBM,couldn't do it, couldn't get in
there, they weren't hiring.
And so you find alternatives.
But everybody said to me and myfamily and the people that I
(56:40):
respected elders in church andthis type of thing take your
time, ron, because you're goingto be there for the rest of your
life.
Yeah, and that's 1968, and todaywell, there was a guy at mcgill
where I worked.
Wilder penfield was his name.
He said you change your careerwhen you're 50 years old.
You'll extend your life by 10years.
(57:01):
You'll get completelyre-energized.
So we can keep doing this thingfor hours, but I want to put a
circle on this, because we'regetting close to an hour, okay,
and we've covered a lot ofground.
What's your observation aboutthis discussion?
Speaker 2 (57:20):
Well, a key takeaway, that kind of you reinforce
something that that's alwaysReally driven me, and I think it
really applies once again tothe younger workforce coming in
that we're dealing with, the30-year-old-ish plus or minus is
(57:40):
, you know, their adaptabilityto technology is exponentially
faster than yours or mine, noquestion.
It's like they arrive at thehospital on the day of delivery
able to operate an iPhone, right, and that's a joke, but you
know it's so that that is what aleader and or even a manager
(58:03):
we'll give a manager a littleleeway here they need to be
taught, leaders and managers, torecognize the human
differential.
And, look, I'm not apsychologist or anything like
that, but I've worked with andmanaged in teams of nearly 400
people in some form or fashionright, not all directly, but you
(58:25):
know it's and thoseinteractions, you know, finding
the uniqueness in eachindividual person, regardless of
age, is, I think, criticallyimportant going forward into the
next decade, right between nowand 2035.
And a lot of consultingconversations I've had recently,
(58:46):
2035 is the buzzword that a lotof folks are using.
You know.
I think, like you said, you andthe gentleman were having the
debate on 2030 for AI and theworkforce capabilities, et
cetera, but 2035 ties in in asimilar context.
(59:12):
I've had the good fortune eventhough I came from a different
direction and operationalbackground with with its rush or
dogged or coppers, and I endedup working with a dotted line
reporting structure to acontroller and or a CFO and kind
(59:35):
of thought that was always alittle weird.
But as life went on I realizedthat that was more valuable to
me because I had one leg as anoperator in the operation and
one leg in the accounting side.
And now I got to see why theaccountants wanted it this way.
And you know, it's funny.
A couple of years ago anauditor was doing a dealer
(59:57):
review and he said are you a CPA.
I said no, and I said why hegoes.
And you talk a lot like thatand you, you, you approach
business.
I said oh.
I said well, it's because ofthe interactions I've had with
these people over the years.
And when I say I'm blessed, Iwould counsel people look, align
(01:00:20):
with good leaders and goodmanagers, because some people
that are managers or departmentleaders or managers don't
necessarily want to be big timetop level folks, but there's so
much information that can begleaned at that level.
And again, I would tell theyounger workforce be patient
with the older and, moreimportantly for myself yourself,
(01:00:43):
others in our age range.
Hey, embrace these folks thatare coming and you guys can do
some wonderful things.
And I've been the benefactor ofthat, seeing some of the
operations that I've ran in thelast decade using that
philosophy very well and leavingbehind highly functional teams
that once they realize I'm gone,they're still doing just fine.
(01:01:06):
And that was my initial purpose.
Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
That's a wonderful way to listened this far is
thinking.
One of the things I say toemployees is if they're not
learning on the job, it's timeto change jobs, and that scares
a lot of employees.
It scares a lot of companies,yes, but our responsibility is
(01:01:37):
to develop people.
Companies, yes, but ourresponsibility is to develop
people.
Our responsibility as a societyis to have people that are
educated to the point that theycan continue our society, and
we've got universities that areoffering degrees.
I'd love to see a situationwhere every single class is
evaluated at every single schoolin the country, and the
(01:02:00):
question that's asked is if Iknow that, can I make a living
wage?
If I can't, I'm not going toleave the class there, I'm going
to get rid of it, and you getrid of 70% of the classes that
are out there, and I'm not goingto name them, but you can
probably figure them all out.
So you know, I hope we can havethis kind of discussion again,
troy, and maybe we'll get morespecific on some of the other
(01:02:22):
ones in the future.
But to the audience out there,thank you for listening.
I hope you got something out ofthis and I look forward to
having you attend another candidconversation in the very near
future.
Thank you for your time, ron,it's my pleasure.
Aloha and welcome to another Candid Conversation.
It's a real pleasure for metoday to introduce you to a
gentleman who's currently livingin Houston, texas, by the name
of Troy Otmer.
Troy and I met each other in aclassroom, I think, in Dallas
some 25 years ago roughly, andhe's one of the talented
(00:25):
individuals that I love beingaround.
That challenges me to staycurrent and to be able to defend
my positions, because he's notafraid to challenge me.
So with that as theintroduction, we're just going
to talk about his career, howit's evolved, the different
(00:45):
aspects of it.
He's worked in differentgeographies, different aspects
of the business, and I thinkyou'll find it fascinating.
So with that as theintroduction, troy, you ready
for this young man?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Good to see you.
Why don't we start with yougiving a thumbnail of your
history, from school to today?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Well, I originally went to automotive tech school
and started my career as anautomotive technician and update
myself a little bit, but allthe way back in 1987.
And it seems like yesterday insome respects when you look back
.
But then when you say it thatway, you go wow, a lot of time
(01:28):
has passed by and you know thatparticular career.
That was my passion, that wasmy desire growing up as a
youngster to be an autotechnician.
You know a lot of people callthem mechanics, some people
still do.
A lot of people call themmechanics, some people still do.
(01:51):
I tend to gravitate to thedirection to be more technical
rather than mechanical, becauseyou need both, naturally.
And that just kind ofleapfrogged from automotive to
medium duty oddly bus way backin that era as well, way back in
that era as well, and thenended into heavy duty and then
(02:11):
landed a unique opportunity togo to work for a John Deere
construction equipment dealerStuart and Stevenson at the time
and they were in the middle ofan acquisition by Rush
Enterprises all the way back in1997.
And once the dust settled onthe acquisition, I became part
of that team in 1998 with Rush.
And so you know, from theautomotive career into medium
(02:34):
duty to heavy duty, to JohnDeere construction equipment.
Then, you know, just work myway through the uh dealer
channel at at Rush and alldepartments started in uh parts,
even though I came from atechnician background.
Uh, a window open to go intothe parts department and I
(02:55):
thought, you know, you know hey.
I want to get an understandingof that department and really
wasn't a big fan of being aparts person.
But what I thought was anegative actually became a
positive and I started lookingat life in a little bit
different perspective.
like, hey, I'm going to be asponge and try to absorb as much
as I can as I go forward andjust kind of work my way through
(03:18):
it.
And that led into other aspectsof the dealership, not only
within the full scope of a partsdepartment.
Put me back in the servicedepartment, ended up in the
rental department and the salesdepartment and Caterpillar calls
(03:39):
them PSSRs, john Deere calledthem CSAs customer service
advisors Went out in the fieldselling.
You know what I would calltechnical sales, parts and
service.
And you know the real driversfor the back end of the
dealership and continued there.
I worked, you know, for Rushfor almost 14 years until they
sold the dealer to another groupand I went with that
(04:01):
acquisition, held variouspositions in the John Deere
dealer group organizations, allthe way from parts counter to
branch manager, general manager,director of parts service.
Publicly traded company out ofPittsburgh called Coppers, with
a K Coppers Inc.
And they were in acquisitionmode and, with my fleet
(04:40):
background and automotive andfield service management
background, along with thedealer background, they were
looking for someone to help themdo acquisitions and roll up a
variety of things into theirbusiness portfolio.
They're a chemical company.
They create railroad ties,creosote railroad ties.
They do a variety of things.
They were putting everythingback together as a circle of
life.
You sell a railroad tie out,you take a railroad tie back in,
(05:01):
you reprocess it, you repurposeit into a different application
in this case, biomass fuel,work with power plants, paper
mills, anything with a boiler toburn these type of fuels,
co-gen plants.
And I did that from 2017 until2000, the latter part of 20.
(05:23):
And that was a good exposure.
I've lived in Michigan a handfulof years for Rush and I
traveled to Michigan and manyother states over the years for
a variety of businessopportunities and it's just been
a fabulous opportunity.
And then I returned to Rush atthe end of 2020 and helped them
(05:44):
with a project of bringingtogether their medium duty bus
and towing group into a newproject that they were looking
at doing.
And you know it ended you knowreally well with a good time for
me to transition into theconsulting realm and I want to
(06:06):
help people.
You know, like you've helpedpeople.
When you and I first met allthose years ago and you know,
and you've been a great mentorto me, I followed your career
and we bumped heads on a fewthings here and there and
disagreed on a few things andhelped each other see the world
from different perspectives, andyou know, and and that's kind
of why we're talking today solet's you know, you're roughly
(06:30):
20 years younger with 20 yearsless experience.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yes, that's right and no, no, that's not a bad thing,
no thing.
But as we look over the countryand we look at the, let's stay
with dealer, automotive, county,municipality, education, the
(06:58):
men and women that are leadingthe dealerships today, and let
me put them in their late 30s.
I'm in the late 70s, you'relate 50s, they're in the late
30s.
Tell me what you see with them.
That's different than what youand I had when we are in the
(07:19):
business.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
You know, the workforce is uniquely different
today than anything that any ofus have ever experienced and, at
least in my opinion, you knowthe Gen Zs, the Gen Ys or
millennials, whichever way theygo.
I get them all confused.
I'm a Gen Xer and such, I'm aGen Xer and such.
(07:56):
But you know the challengeswith young leaders today and I
say challenges and that soundsas a negative, but I'll explain
their ability to lead is notnecessarily worse or better,
it's different and it'softentimes misunderstood.
And that's been one of thestruggles with some of the
projects I've worked on.
For you know, in the lastdecade, for you know three,
(08:19):
actually four differentcompanies, I've really helped
make some significant changemanagement decisions and a lot
of times those are very painful.
And the difference between youknow, your generation, the
boomers, right, you know, is thetype of work, ethic, right, and
there's a natural assumptionthat the younger generations
don't necessarily want to workand there may be some truth to
(08:41):
that.
But what I've found is being inmy late 50s, if you can stay
relevant to that generation'sperspective, what they're
looking for, you practiceintentional listening.
Now, my intentional listeningfor you would be different than
(09:01):
a 38-year-old or a 28-year-old,right?
You would be different than a38 year old or a 28 year old.
Right, I'm catering mylistening style to the audience
I'm speaking with and if it'sdifferent people in the room
you're going to, you're going toflip back and forth routinely
as you have these conversations,because these, these youngsters
, will challenge you, sometimesin ways that make no sense and
(09:24):
for the older participantssometimes it can come across as
insubordination or condescendingattitude or just complete
dismissal.
Likewise, it's interesting tosay the young generation.
When you really get down in theweeds with them, they'll say
(09:44):
look, you older people don'treally want to listen, you don't
care what I think You'recondescending, you dismiss it.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Stop there for a second, because I believe that's
completely true.
The older, there's still peoplethat are in the generation that
preceded mine, the baby boomersand as baby boomers, we were
children raised by people thatgrew up in the Depression and
(10:16):
experienced a war that coloredeverything that they did.
Everything that they did was toprotect the family, whether
it's earnings, whether it'sathletics, whether it's church,
whatever.
It is Right and that's gone.
(10:38):
And it's not a work ethic issueas much as it's an expectation
issue.
Correct, both you and I can doevery job that's involved in
anything that we're involvedwith the dealer on and that's
off-putting to a lot of people.
(10:58):
I've often said to people youreally don't want me to do your
job for you?
Do you really don't want me todo your job for you?
Do me, do you?
One of the things that HarryTruman was famous for is not
just the buck stops here, butthe one I like the best is if I
have to do your job for you, Ireally don't need you.
Correct, right, and your yourcomment that the younger people
(11:18):
don't think we pay attention tothem or don't listen to them or
don't treat them seriously.
I think the older generationsare determining strategy for
their businesses.
And in the American businesscommunity, every year there's
surveys on the success thatcompanies have of implementing
(11:41):
their strategy and the averagenumber over the last 30 years or
so has been 10%.
In other words, 90% don't do it, don't get it done.
And to me, the biggest failurethere is again in survey data.
If you ask the employees of acompany to say what the strategy
is, they can't tell you Correct.
(12:02):
And that's the listening andcommunication thing and that's
what leadership's job is.
Yes, so when the folks say youdon't listen to me, I believe
they're right, and the surveyson successfully implementing
change or realizing success on astrategy indicate that they're
(12:24):
right realizing success on astrategy indicate that they're
right.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Well, and to step in and add to that, in one of your
recent podcasts with anotherindividual you guys were talking
about you know interactionswith employees and one of the
just takeaways was why do youwait till the exit interview to
try to figure out why they'releaving?
And it's too late.
What were you not doing alongthe way up to that point?
Speaker 1 (12:53):
right, yeah, I remember that discussion, and
one of the things that was inthat discussion as well is I
like to have a guy, an employee,a guy a gal.
After three months, four months, I want them to come and tell
me you know, what do we do thatyou think is absolutely a waste
of time?
What do you see that we shouldbe doing that we're not Because
(13:16):
they got fresh eyes?
Yes, and we don't.
Hardly anybody asks thatquestion and we don't hardly
anybody ask that question.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Well, leaders are.
In some cases people will,let's just say, managers.
You know managing and leadingthey're one in the same, but
they're not, and you knowmanaging people is.
You know it has nuances thatyou still have to do.
Yeah, we have to manage ourbusiness, but my philosophy is
(13:46):
I'd rather lead my business.
I'd rather give the people thatI work with on the team the
latitude and flexibility, trust,empowerment to do their job and
, more importantly, always bewilling to have an open door
policy and get their feedback.
Look, pushback criticismconstructive criticism
(14:08):
oftentimes gets, you know,cluttered in with
insubordination, and oftentimesthat's where managers that
aren't really paying attentionto what matters most get
themselves in a pinch.
And you know, when someonecomes in my office and says, hey
, I got a problem, or they'repretty hot right, they're
(14:29):
frustrated, maybe not mad at me,they just got a situation.
First question I ask is youknow, depending on the scenario,
if it's an emergency or aninjury, then hey, what's going
on right?
But in a general, regular,emotional moment, hey, what
would you like to do about thething you just brought to me?
What do you think the bestthing to do is?
(14:49):
And you get this weird looksometimes like you really want
to know what I think, andsometimes they'll say that you
really want to know.
Absolutely, I do want to know,I want to understand what you
see and why you the way you seeit, and maybe we can't do it the
way you want.
Then I'll take the time and tryto explain the corporate reason
(15:13):
, because there may be somelegal or ethical or process
reasons.
We can't do something.
But oftentimes you'll find anugget or two of information
that you can use and I say itthat way, a nugget or two
because it is like there'slittle bits and pieces that you
can pull together and when thatperson leaves, they hopefully
leave better than they came tothe party.
(15:35):
Right, and that really is themotivation and I bring that up
because older people my age,your age in between, possibly
even older than you are stayingin the workforce or coming back
into the workforce for a varietyof reasons.
Maybe it's not even financial,maybe in some cases it's because
(15:58):
they don't want to sit at homeand stare at the wall or watch
tv all day.
So now you have this mixture of80, 70, and 60-year-olds
starting to work with 20 and30-year-olds, and on the surface
that seems like it could be aproblem, but in the right
environment, with the rightfocus and right understanding,
(16:19):
right listening skills.
And in the previousconversation you and I mentioned
predictive index.
A lot of companies are usingthe PI and some of them use it
incorrectly and they take it asthe whole truth and nothing but
the truth and that's the finalanswer based on the results that
come out of that inquiry.
But if you use that or othersimilar technologies or methods
(16:40):
as a tool, you can find thatthis unique workforce that we
have can be very effective intoday's world, today's economy,
especially the post-pandemicworld, because we've all went
through some craziness that noneof us have ever experienced
before.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
You know you take the 60, 70, 80-year-olds and when's
the last time they went to aschool and had some learning?
When's the last time they tooka class outside of the OEM stuff
?
Right, it's non-existent.
I used to start almost all myclasses with when's the last
(17:18):
time you read a book?
And that's shameful.
Yes, sir, yeah so we get intothis situation and that's
shameful.
Yes, sir, yeah, so we get intothis situation.
So we're talking 60, 70, 80with 20-year-olds, that's your
grandchildren.
I've got a 23-year-old and a19-year-old grandchild and I'm
(17:40):
78.
And I have more fun with thosetwo suckers than you can imagine
.
They're both hardworking,they're both disciplined.
They're both hardworking,they're both disciplined,
they're both smart, they bothhave unique skills.
My granddaughter is teachingtwo classes at an undergraduate
level and running two labs forthe school in animal science,
which isn't veterinary science.
It's a completely different gigand she's over the moon with
(18:05):
excitement about it and herstudents love her.
And a year ago we're talkingabout would you like to teach,
would you like to get yourdoctorate?
And she said no, I don't need adoctorate, because the only
place that's worthwhile is ifyou teach at the university.
Now maybe I should get adoctorate pumping, but I have no
(18:27):
clue what she's going to do.
The interesting thing aboutlife today for the younger
people is technology is comingat us fast and furious.
Yes, my writings how I used themetaphor of the steam engine in
1880 being replaced by theelectric energy, and it took a
(18:48):
energy engine and it took ageneration before the engine was
properly utilized, withdifferent methods and processes
and and metrics.
And I just put something up.
In the last couple of years Iwent back to 1950 and looked at
technological changes by thedecade and different people
(19:09):
could have used different things.
But my point with it is every10 years, for the last 70, 80
years, we've come up withsomething that's pretty damn
major.
Yeah true, and it scared thebejesus out of everybody.
They don't know how to dealwith it because they can't keep
up with it.
It happened to me.
I was trained at university indata processing, computer
(19:35):
science, unit record equipment.
My God, I wired that stuff.
I'm a dinosaur.
And I was brought into theStates to run a software company
and in the late 80s I had togive up trying to keep up with
it because it was changing toofast.
It was taking too much of mytime.
I said screw it, I'm not goingto deal with that anymore.
(19:55):
I had a social workerinteracting with me over the
last month or so and I talkedabout careers and how we were
going to have to retool societyand she said don't worry about
it, ron, they're going to haveroughly eight to 10 year careers
(20:16):
and they might go in acompletely different direction.
Which takes me to my grandson,who's the smartest in the family
by a long shot.
I hope he doesn't hear this.
That'll go right to his head,but he's going to have nuclear
engineering and astrophysicsmaster's degrees by the time
he's 20.
Wow, and I'm serious.
(20:40):
He's quite extraordinary andthank God he's in the Navy.
Thank God, that's true, becauseall of his friends from high
school he's still involved with.
They're at universities, PartyTime, usa, cocaine babes,
everything right, right.
And his grandson would be rightthere with him.
Thank God he's got the Navykeeping him so damn busy he
doesn't have anything to do.
(21:00):
Well, this kid makes clothingon a sewing machine, is involved
in makeup, wants to own arestaurant, he's a hell of a
cook, plays the piano andkeyboards I mean there's.
So I say to him what are yougoing to do when you grow up?
He said I haven't got any clue.
It's just like you, poppy,where you keep saying to me you
(21:20):
don't know what you're going todo when you grow up, to your
point of people coming back intothe workforce.
The job has defined the person.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
And when they retire, they don't know who they are.
And isn't that a horrible thing?
I've said to people for yearsyou've probably heard it out of
my mouth you retire to something, not from something Correct.
Yes, you haven't got somethingto retire to, don't retire,
right?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
well, that's very true and that's with the older
generation that has come backinto the workforces for me that
I've dealt with in the last 10years or so, back into the
workforces for me that I'vedealt with in the last 10 years
or so.
That is predominantly thephrase they use when they come
into interview.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, I don't know who I am anymore.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, and I would add too, on the looking back at
well, I've moved in theindustrial distribution space
has been my career for 38 yearsor so, because that's where
automotive, trucking,construction equipment and it
fits other spaces too.
(22:33):
But that wording is the bestapplication and even when I
worked on the customer side,which is twice during that 38
years, I got about 10 to 12years of the 38 are related to
being a customer, so dealingwith a dealer as a customer, and
(22:54):
so I found this perspectivethat I've had.
I can see both sides and I canunderstand the dealer side.
Look, I want a fair deal, butat the same time I also know
that paying that low price perhour but it takes six months to
get my tractor rebuilt, whereasthe dealer is a high price per
hour and I get it back in threemonths Well, my uptime
(23:16):
utilization that's far morecost-effective to do and being
able to navigate that on bothsides of that conversation, I
still utilize that skill setlearned over time.
So what I'm driving at is, eventhough the technologies have
changed and you're right thesestep function improvements that
we've seen with technology.
(23:39):
It's coming fast and it'salmost I would even challenge in
some applications, especiallywith AI.
You know, and a lot of peoplethink AI is a brand new thing in
the last 12 months.
No, it's been in the backgroundfor a while in a lot of
different forms and fashion.
And you know, and one of thechallenges is this technology
(24:03):
changes so quickly.
Some of the older generation, alot of people, just naturally
assume they're not willing tojump on board with technology.
And I have found that the oldergeneration to be more in tune
with the adaptability to currenttechnology than you would
expect.
(24:23):
So being dismissive to thatparticular labor market or labor
pool is a mistake, and it'shard to find people that want to
work in dealers or a frontfacing business where you've got
to come to an office every dayand you hear Amazon and all
these other big companies makingdemands You're coming back to
(24:44):
the office or you're fired,right?
Look, remote work does exist ina lot of ways and with the one
company Coppers I mentioned, alot of my work was remote.
I was moving around on anairplane, I'm working out of a
hotel.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
I did have an office but I was not in it as often as
I was somewhere else and it canbe done.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
It's not for everybody.
But the application oftechnology like look at you and
I we're on a Zoom call and yeah,we had a little bit of Zoom
snafu getting this to work today, but sometimes that happens but
for the most part thistechnology is very forgiving,
very easy to use and I thinkthat's where, when you're hiring
(25:26):
and you're in the dealer world,going specifically to that, I
think there's a good balancethat I'm starting to see across
the dealers, whether it's truckor automotive or construction,
forestry or even ag and you andI were chatting earlier, john
Deere Ag is well ahead of a lotof other of their peers out
(25:50):
there and you know, and theykind of set the example.
They don't get it right all thetime either, but when you look
back historically at what theydid, where they came from and
kind of a lot of the thingswe're talking about today
electrification I was working onJohn Deere products as a
committee advisor with JohnDeere on EV projects and or
(26:12):
products.
While we were doing interimtier four and final tier four
preparation, there were EVthings that I was consulting on
as a deer dealer.
You know I couldn't talk aboutthem way back in the day because
there was NDAs and such.
But today that's commonplace EV.
Look at that.
So bringing this all together,it's kind of a perfect storm in
(26:37):
a good way.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Yeah, it's unbelievable.
There's a test dealer inSaskatchewan, about an hour and
a half south of Saskatoon, thatwas a client of mine and John
Deere used them for testing,planting and harvesting
equipment, were looking at fromthe satellite, evaluating the
(27:07):
soil, nutrients, moisturecontent, and had in the hopper
at the back of the planterdifferent seeds depending on
what that field needed, and itwas planted by air to a specific
depth depending on what thesatellite said.
The guy who was in the machineand I'm assuming at the moment
there was a guy in the machinedidn't have anything to do with
(27:28):
it.
He just had to make sure he wasdriving straight and then to
take that further.
We're talking in Saskatchewan tofarms that are 40,000 acres
80,000 acres.
They're run by religious sectswhich you know, like the Amish
in the States, is a little bitscary for a lot of people
because we don't understand it.
(27:49):
But what those people would dois they'd buy a machine, they'd
use it for the particular season, then they'd give it back.
So this particular dealer wasmaking a fortune on used
equipment that had maybe $500 onit, sold into the States where
there was a 30% premium incurrency and life is very good.
(28:12):
Thank you very much.
And you know so, there's abusiness model that hardly
anybody would want to look at.
But the thing that makes, Ithink, you different than the
guys today and I use thisanalogy all the time the
conductor is the only musicianthat has his back to the
customer, whose success istotally dependent not on their
(28:35):
interaction with the customerbut their interaction with their
team in front of them.
They bring the music Together.
The orchestra and the conductordetermine the mood that I try
and deliver.
That with.
But the music's, the music's,the music, and Beethoven has not
(28:57):
changed and Chopin has notchanged.
But I'll still pry my eyes out,depending on how the thing is
presented.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, and you know, funny note I'd like to say on
the tractors you mentioned, backin the early 90s when, as I
transitioned into fleetmanagement, the company I worked
for they were a large dirtcontractor and those tractors
you referenced, we were buyingStigers etc.
(29:28):
We were buying those that wereone or two years old, just like
that, one season maybe, maybetwo max.
We were buying those.
Those became our scrapertractors pulling either two or
three pans, whatever the mode ofoperation was.
And it's interesting, we'venever talked about that, but
it's kind of weird that ourpaths kind of have crossed in
(29:50):
different ways with who we'vetouched in our careers.
And the second thing I wouldsay is going back, as your
reference to the conductor, asyou referenced to the conductor,
regardless of the leadershipposition I'm in, whether it's
dealer world, whether it'scustomer world, fleet operations
, what have you?
plant operations, biomassproduction that conductor's job
(30:13):
is essentially the same.
Your customer may be different,your customer interaction may
be different, but the conductoryou're right has his back to the
customer generally.
Your customer interaction maybe different, but the conductor
you're right has his back to thecustomer generally.
Where I have learned is toreally do my best, is to help
influence the creativity of eachindividual and see how those
(30:33):
teams interact.
And look sometimes you have badteams.
Oftentimes you have bad leadersright or bad managers.
You got to sort through thatand I'll be the first to admit
I've not got every hiringdecision right either, and
occasionally it happens.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
But you.
The hardest job in anyenterprise is hiring.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
It's a beauty contest .
Yes, so this predictive indexand DISC and Briggs-Myers and
(31:30):
all that stuff is the back of myhand and has been for 40 years,
which makes me quite different,actually.
But then the other thing thatwas different, troy, is that I
swam competitively Okay, and Ilearned at a very young age.
It's not about me competingwith anybody else, it's about me
competing with myself, andthat's a tough lesson.
(31:50):
And then the final thing iswe're raised in a manner in
which we're taught to beobedient.
Our parents are protecting us.
Don't put your hand on thestove.
Look both ways before you crossthe street.
And at some point in time inthe growth process teenage years
the teenager pushes back andsaid yeah, who are you?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
You don't know anything.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
I know better than you, and so now it becomes a
competition, right?
So the parent-child is acompetition, the old style
management, and you wanted todraw a distinction between
leader and manager, and I agree100%.
You don't manage people, youlead people, and manager is a
(32:35):
hyphenated word.
It's a man-ager and I don'tmean to be sexist because it's a
female ager too but we get outinto the marketplace and we
don't know how to do this.
You're obedient in the family.
You're obedient at school.
You're obedient when you gethired.
(32:55):
You're trained how to do thejob.
Don't look over the wall, justdo more of it, make fewer
mistakes and you're going to befine.
We've broached artificialintelligence, one of our
contributors who's got a coupleof PhDs, economics and history
taught at Northwestern.
21 bestsellers, new York Timespretty sharp guy.
(33:18):
He says by 2030, and we argueabout the specific date but by
2030, 50% of the Americanworkforce, that's 75 million
people will not have the skillsto be employable, correct, so go
back to that social worker.
That's what the genesis was, orthe seed was of the discussion
(33:39):
we were having.
How's society going to functionwhen 75 million people are
carrying 350?
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Oh yeah, tough.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
It's a different world, babe.
Well, and on that note, oneschool district that I'm
actually working with and I'm aproduct, just to clarify before
I go into that I'm a product of,just to clarify before I go
into that, I'm a product of thevocational technical program.
So my original path was not togo to college and that didn't
set well with family.
(34:11):
But hey, I'm hard-headed, Iknow everything at that age,
right, and so I went a differentpath and for me that path was
the best path late.
But as I was going along thatjourney, on that path, I did
realize that I did need thatother education along the way.
So I continued down that pathas life went on and then you
(34:34):
know it's a.
It's a different journey thanjust jumping out of high school
and four years of college or acouple more years for a master's
, this, that and the other.
But when I was talking withthese high school level so
junior or, excuse me, sophomores, juniors and or seniors that
(34:54):
are in either welding tech,diesel tech or auto tech
programs and they spread out,but that's the basics tech
programs and they spread out,but that's the basics, you know
it's.
I talk about the employabilityof the future workforce and the
critical nature of why technicaland vocational skills should
not be dismissed as unimportant,and I talk a lot with
(35:15):
counselors as well about that.
And you know I'm starting tosee in some schools and I know
this is a, I'm probably tryingto change too much at once, but
it's a slow curve I'm startingto see that their schools are
starting to figure that out that, hey, not everybody's going to
go to a four-year graduateprogram or any type of you know,
(35:38):
postgraduate degree, but theone year or two year associate
level technical programs are alot of value.
So you see, you can see a shift.
But I do talk a lot about thatand the employability of the
future workforce, or rather, asI say, it said in one of my most
recent conversations, the lackthereof the lack thereof.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
It's really remarkable, I'm going to say.
Since the 60s, society inAmerica has said get a degree
and you'll be fine.
My grandmother got a master'sin 1915.
She spoke fluently in Greek andLatin, smart like hell.
She was the oldest of threegirls and her father treated her
(36:23):
like his son, and my parentsboth worked.
So I had the pleasure of beingraised by my grandmother for the
first three or four years of mylife, which I think is a
wonderful thing.
A parent-child relationship iscompetitive.
A grandparent-grandchildrelationship is just love,
correct, Yep, and you've heardme say this.
(36:47):
Anybody asks me a questiontoday that they want me to do
something.
I'll say yes, because itconfuses the hell out of them.
Now it doesn't mean that I'msaying yes to what they're
asking me for.
I might have to have adiscussion so I better
understand what it is they'relooking for and they better
understand what they're lookingfor.
Fair.
(37:07):
But there's very few people.
That's why I like chatting withyou.
There's very few people likeyou today that are able to
implement change.
So that goes back to leadershipagain and management.
Our job function as a leader isimplementing change period, and
(37:31):
we're terrible at it.
We don't want to do it.
We've got an equilibrium insociety.
We've got peace and tranquilityin the company.
We're not fighting with eachother and we don't want to
challenge that.
And the older you get, the moreyou want to protect the status
quo, because you're scared todeath that you change something.
You're going to screw it upBecause you don't know what the
(37:53):
job is anymore.
So go down to the 30-year-old,the 20 years younger than you.
They can't do the job like youused to be and they have no
interest in trying to do the job.
And they go from metrics, theygo from KPIs.
They're all wonderful andthat's all past tense.
(38:16):
That has nothing to do withtomorrow, correct.
And when you sit down and youpoke I love doing this I get a
group of guys mostly guys andwe'll have four or five or six
and we'll have a Zoom call andwe'll just have a discussion and
I like to teach in what iscalled the Socratic method.
(38:37):
I don't answer questions, I askthem.
I'm trying to get you to cometo the conclusion yourself,
because I'm not just teachingthe curriculum, I'm teaching you
how to teach yourself, so youdon't need me in the future.
It's a lifelong skill.
Versus you know, I know how toadd and subtract.
And I had a guy.
I took mathematics and physicsas my majors and I was part of
(39:00):
an honors program with computerscience and statistics as my
minors and we all had a guy onheat and thermodynamics in our
second year and the passinggrade was 18, and it didn't mark
on a curve and I failed.
And one person passed and itwas a woman.
(39:23):
She was by far the smartestperson in the class.
It was amazing.
So we go to this guy.
He's got a PhD in appliedphysics, a concert pianist and
he's 28 years old and he saidwait a second what are you
trying to do to me?
So I'm only here to teach thepeople that are capable.
And what a crock of crap.
(39:47):
We went to the dean, the deansupported the next year he was
gone, but in the meantime all ofus I don't know, there was
about maybe 20.
I don't know the exact number.
We weren't in the honorsprogram anymore, we were
majoring in this stuff.
That didn't hurt my feelingsbecause you know, it became
pretty clear very, very quicklyto me, Troy, that an experience
and a history of being able tofind a solution not always, but
(40:08):
down there most of the time-well and you know you bring up a
good point with you know thatparticular professor you
(40:30):
mentioned a lot of managers andso-called leaders approach it in
a similar fashion.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Right, I've heard general managers, I've heard VPs
and I've heard this personally.
I've seen it, you know, had tohelp correct it where they'll
come in.
And hey, for you folks thatdon't have a college degree,
you'll never get promoted,you'll never be successful,
you'll never make money whatever.
(40:59):
And you know, and itdemotivates people to the point
where you know, it's even toxicto the people with degrees,
because what they don't realizeis is the underlying impact it
has on the entire workforce,regardless of your academic
status.
And you know what my preferenceis is what you just said is hey
(41:22):
, tell me what the problem isand let's see where it takes us.
What is the root cause of theissue and what do you find along
the way?
And if I go into, say, a partsdepartment to do an evaluation,
I'm going to look, listen, learn, do a lot more looking,
listening and learning, askquestions, give you know, unless
(41:44):
the building's on fire, I'm notgoing to give a lot of
directives.
Initially, I'm going to absorb,but more importantly, I'm going
to get to know the players whothey are, and I'm not just going
to focus on the parts manager,assistant parts manager or what
have you.
I'm going to focus on all theplayers equally, of course.
But you know, and then youfigure out what the real dynamic
(42:05):
is and you know people,companies say, hey, I want to.
I want to improve our cultureOK.
Well, that's very vague andambiguous.
Or, hey, I want to improve myparts turns OK.
Or I want to improve my partsturns Okay.
Or I want to improve my deadinventory Get that out of here
Okay.
Again, those are very specificon the surface, but when you
really get down in the weeds, asyou know that, you can open up
(42:29):
Pandora's box and you may regretthat.
And oftentimes you know, youfigure out that there's a lot
more to some of these people.
And the initial assessmentwould be and I've taken over
projects where they say, hey,this person needs to go, that
person needs to go, and I say,hey, like, let me make my own
decisions, let me do myevaluation and figure this out
(42:50):
and nine times out of 10, mostof the people on the surface
that they said need to go, theydon't need to go.
What they need is guidance,they need understanding, they
need tutoring, they needmentoring, and I want to empower
people.
Hey, okay, I'm the generalmanager, I'm the VP, I'm the
(43:11):
parts manager, whatever my titleis.
Congratulations to me.
Now, let me hang that on thewall.
Now let's get our hands dirtyand go figure out how this parts
department is failing and, moreimportantly, you guys can't be
failing at everything.
So where are you succeeding?
Let's figure that out and youknow it's a very methodical
(43:33):
approach but it's also a littlebit loose, where you just nature
has to take its course to somedegree.
Again, the buildings on fireaddress it, but the rest of it
you, you evaluate and you'vedone far more evaluations of
dealer groups and other businessunits than I have.
But you know, you know I'veworked in these environments and
(43:54):
and in and around places you'vetouched and done evaluations on
and you know you've seen thosethings too, I'm sure, where you
know, oftentimes it may be thedealer principle that's actually
the problem.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
In many cases it is.
You know, we had I started inQuebec and a company was named
Hewitt Equipment.
It was founded by Bob Hewittand two of his brothers.
Bob was the vice president ofsales for the Caterpillar dealer
in Ontario, the next provinceover.
When I became data processingmanager, we had three sets of
(44:30):
books one for Bob, one for themanagers in the company and one
for his two brothers.
Then we had another one for themanagers in the company and one
for his two brothers, and thenwe had another one for the
government and I asked him aboutthat.
I said we've got three sets ofbooks here.
(44:52):
I understand what you're doing,but is that what you really
want to do?
And he looked at me and hesmiled.
He says I'm not going to tellmy brothers what the hell's
going on over here.
They'll start interfering.
Right I'm looking over myshoulder the management.
He said I do want to tell themhow well they're doing.
(45:14):
And we had a once a year meetingthat was called Profitable
Development for Quebec, whichgot initiated to PDQ, and we'd
start on a Thursday night.
We'd go out of town there wasmaybe 100 men, all men.
There's no women at that timeand we'd meet Friday, saturday
and Sunday and we gotunbelievable amounts of things
(45:37):
done because the salvation ofcommunication was present every
night.
Everybody drank and inhibitionsdisappeared.
Yeah, and you know I'm notadvocating that you get into the
booze or anything, but ithappens.
But I want people to be able tosay to me whatever the hell
(46:00):
they want.
I had a client in Moscow oneyear.
The guy was in his late 30s,had a master's degree, a parent
of three children and I had.
My standard question is isthere anything that you would
like to do that would make yourjob easier and the company more
money.
And he looked me straight inthe face and said don't ask
questions like that, just tellme what you want me to do, and
(46:22):
that's the Russian Federation.
Well, we're not in the RussianFederation, and the people that
are doing the job should be theones that know how to do that
job better than anybody else,and anybody who's interested in
making things better thatdoesn't ask is stupid.
And so you know we've we'vegone down those paths.
(46:46):
And here comes Mike Rowe, dirtyjobs, yep.
And you know that we do a lotof education now and and you can
get an associate's degree withthis.
I'm a couple of courses shortto be able to give you a
bachelor's degree, but we haveabout 110 academic credits you
(47:07):
can earn with us.
I've got schools that representus, but a school model is 25
years and old and down on acampus with a syllabus, and if
they're over a certain age,they're not interested in what
(47:27):
we offer, because we're offering16 to 76.
Correct.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
The people that are out there working and we're now
getting certain states thatwe're getting the state to
reimburse the tuition costsbased on the student taking it
and passing, meaning theeducation from us is free.
My grandson, I mentioned to you, wanted to get a nuclear
engineering degree and he wantedto go to Purdue and he was
(47:52):
accepted.
He was happy as a clam.
And we're sitting talking aboutit six months after 17, and
we're chatting about this.
He said, bobby, it's $350,000for my degree.
Wow, even with all myscholarships, it's $170,000.
I'm not doing that, I can'tafford to do that.
And if you think about society,student loans is right up there
(48:14):
with car loans and mortgages.
It's actually the largestsingle debt that people have
today in America.
Right, it's delayed.
All manner of things Homepurchases, family development,
child it's unbelievable.
So I would go into a company, Iwould do a review, they'd pay me
for a review, I'd give them afinal report and it basically
(48:39):
had a bunch of to-dos andfinancial management
justifications, all the rest.
And I would ask them and you'veheard me say this I would ask
them okay, have you got peoplein mind that could implement
this for you?
And they said yeah.
So three months, six monthslater, being the pretty face
that I am, I would call and sayhow are you making out?
Well, we haven't started yet,we're too busy.
And after about a year and ahalf or so of that, I started
(49:02):
saying to them have you gotanybody in mind for this?
And they would say yes, or, ifyou're interested, I could do it
for you.
And then all of a sudden Ibecame busier than I could
manage.
You know, and the same thing isstill true today.
But people say it's because ofthe price of the machine.
(49:24):
In Canada there's twoCaterpillar dealers.
Today there were 10.
When I started.
In America, there were 50Caterpillar dealers.
When I started there might be20 today.
Dealers when I started, theremight be 20 today.
So that consolidation has beenblamed on the price of machinery
(49:47):
.
The dealer in the supply chainis at risk.
I believe they will be gone inthe next 10 to 15 years and it's
because of their own inactivity.
How many dealers do you knowthat allow the customer to order
parts online or theirtechnicians to order parts from
the bay?
Speaker 2 (50:07):
They fight it.
They still fight it.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
I know and you know, I've been blessed with all kinds
of experiences that I couldn'thave scripted.
That helped me get to the skillset if you can call it that
that I have, or the experiencesthat I have.
Younger people aren't gettingthat today.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Well, to that point, ron, you know the two dealers
that I've worked with, doggettand Rush, through my career.
They they're both forwardthinking and want their
technicians to work moreefficiently, not walk from one
end of the shop to the partsdepartment and back and forth,
and they want their customers tobuy from them through all means
(50:52):
available and online, telephone, et cetera.
And in both companies you knowcompanies, you know I'm not
biased to either one, but I callout you know, hey, they're
forward thinking, they got theiract together and that's respect
and you can see the fruits ofthat effort.
You know as it's worked out andI've seen it firsthand with
(51:13):
both companies.
And you know I haven't beenwith Doggett since 2017, and I
follow them on LinkedIn, theirwebsite.
I still know quite a few peoplethere.
They're one of the premier Johndealers in the United States
today.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
Well, and Rush is in the same category.
You were with a very impressivedealer, premier right.
And you know when I say thatthe dealer's at risk, the only
parts business they're going tohave risk, the only parts
business they're going to haveunless they get with the program
, is what other people don'thave.
That's right, yeah.
(51:45):
And when you look at Napa,which is owned by Genuine Parts,
which is owned by GeneralMotors, ford, chrysler, blah,
blah, blah, a publicly tradedcompany that has an average
gross margin of 38.3%.
The dealers don't get that much.
(52:06):
I remember a very good dealerin the Northeast.
One of the things that I'mreally a pain in the butt about
is inventory turnover, becausethat drives pricing.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Yes, it does.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
But it drives pricing .
And they were really braggingand saying, jesus, you know,
we're really good.
We got six, seven, eight timesturnover, depending on the store
.
I said, really, that's what doyou think?
Where were you?
Oh, we were one and a half, twoand a half, like everybody else
in the industry, and I saidwell, how long does it take you
to get a stock order anymore?
(52:40):
They said, well, maybe threedays.
And I said well, why do youneed the other 57 days of
inventory?
And they looked because if I'mturning the inventory six times,
I've got 60 days supply.
And they looked at me and saidwhat do you mean supply?
(53:02):
And they looked at me and saidwhat do you mean?
Well, you've got.
Why isn't your turnover 12times?
Only carry 30 days supplyinstead of 60?
.
Is the service level going to godown?
Well, yeah, it might.
Yeah, because of abnormaldemand or because of a factory
shortage, there are finitenumbers of reasons.
And they said, well, what doyou think our turnover should be
?
I said north of 20.
And they almost choked and theowner's looking at me saying do
(53:29):
you realize what my return oninventory would be then?
30% gross, turning at 20 times,that's 600%.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
I mean hello, and you can do that in every aspect of
the business, includingequipment sales.
So that, contractor, youmentioned that you bought one
year and two year old machinesthey were ahead of the curve
because, the value of the asset.
Like cars, you drive it off theparking lot.
It's 35% cheaper.
Right there, yep, I've hadVolvos and I haven't had a Volvo
(54:03):
that had less than 300,000miles on it.
What's this nonsense about?
Every 40,000, we change the car.
That's society.
That's who we are as people.
We're competing with ourneighbors.
I want to be better than you.
I want to have more than you.
It has nothing to do with moreor better.
Are you happy, correct?
And the younger generation aremuch smarter because they're
(54:26):
focusing on that.
My granddaughter calls it quiet, quitting.
I'm only going to give you asmuch work as I need to do to
keep my job and get my pay,because I'm not interested in
what I'm doing.
I'm going to have a hell of alot more fun when I'm outside of
the job.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Well, and that my wife works in corporate
insurance.
She's in big insurancebrokerage and that is one of the
.
We routinely talk about thatand about the younger generation
and how they work and webalance things off of each other
and one of the things that'scommon is we have to be very
(55:03):
task-specific to these youngergenerations.
So during that window thatthey're willing to give you and
you've got to target their skillset, their capabilities, how
they focus, how they listen andthe approach.
The old adage everybody got tobe treated the same still stands
, but that's not reality.
(55:25):
Everybody's treated the samerelative to their own uniqueness
and and the.
Speaker 1 (55:30):
And the problem with you're absolutely right.
And the problem with that ismost of us don't realize or
don't understand how todetermine Correct.
The things that I try and dowith our company is I want to
help people identify what theirpersonal and professional
potential is.
Yes, correct, and that's noteasy, that's scary.
And if we get to the point ofunderstanding what that
(55:53):
potential is, then I throw mycrazy comments out.
If somebody tells you you got alot of potential, you're 16
years old, congratulations, thisis really good, you're going to
have a good life.
But if that same person saysthe same thing to you and you're
66, you have to say what thehell have I done for the last 50
years?
And that's life.
We get busy doing other thingsand we lose sight of what we
(56:18):
should be doing.
And the younger generation, Ithink, are much more in tune
with that than my generation.
When I came out of school itwas 1968 and it was a tough time
to get a job.
I wanted to work for IBM,couldn't do it, couldn't get in
there, they weren't hiring.
And so you find alternatives.
But everybody said to me and myfamily and the people that I
(56:40):
respected elders in church andthis type of thing take your
time, ron, because you're goingto be there for the rest of your
life.
Yeah, and that's 1968, and todaywell, there was a guy at mcgill
where I worked.
Wilder penfield was his name.
He said you change your careerwhen you're 50 years old.
You'll extend your life by 10years.
(57:01):
You'll get completelyre-energized.
So we can keep doing this thingfor hours, but I want to put a
circle on this, because we'regetting close to an hour, okay,
and we've covered a lot ofground.
What's your observation aboutthis discussion?
Speaker 2 (57:20):
Well, a key takeaway, that kind of you reinforce
something that that's alwaysReally driven me, and I think it
really applies once again tothe younger workforce coming in
that we're dealing with, the30-year-old-ish plus or minus is
(57:40):
, you know, their adaptabilityto technology is exponentially
faster than yours or mine, noquestion.
It's like they arrive at thehospital on the day of delivery
able to operate an iPhone, right, and that's a joke, but you
know it's so that that is what aleader and or even a manager
(58:03):
we'll give a manager a littleleeway here they need to be
taught, leaders and managers, torecognize the human
differential.
And, look, I'm not apsychologist or anything like
that, but I've worked with andmanaged in teams of nearly 400
people in some form or fashionright, not all directly, but you
(58:25):
know it's and thoseinteractions, you know, finding
the uniqueness in eachindividual person, regardless of
age, is, I think, criticallyimportant going forward into the
next decade, right between nowand 2035.
And a lot of consultingconversations I've had recently,
(58:46):
2035 is the buzzword that a lotof folks are using.
You know.
I think, like you said, you andthe gentleman were having the
debate on 2030 for AI and theworkforce capabilities, et
cetera, but 2035 ties in in asimilar context.
(59:12):
I've had the good fortune eventhough I came from a different
direction and operationalbackground with with its rush or
dogged or coppers, and I endedup working with a dotted line
reporting structure to acontroller and or a CFO and kind
(59:35):
of thought that was always alittle weird.
But as life went on I realizedthat that was more valuable to
me because I had one leg as anoperator in the operation and
one leg in the accounting side.
And now I got to see why theaccountants wanted it this way.
And you know, it's funny.
A couple of years ago anauditor was doing a dealer
(59:57):
review and he said are you a CPA.
I said no, and I said why hegoes.
And you talk a lot like thatand you, you, you approach
business.
I said oh.
I said well, it's because ofthe interactions I've had with
these people over the years.
And when I say I'm blessed, Iwould counsel people look, align
(01:00:20):
with good leaders and goodmanagers, because some people
that are managers or departmentleaders or managers don't
necessarily want to be big timetop level folks, but there's so
much information that can begleaned at that level.
And again, I would tell theyounger workforce be patient
with the older and, moreimportantly for myself yourself,
(01:00:43):
others in our age range.
Hey, embrace these folks thatare coming and you guys can do
some wonderful things.
And I've been the benefactor ofthat, seeing some of the
operations that I've ran in thelast decade using that
philosophy very well and leavingbehind highly functional teams
that once they realize I'm gone,they're still doing just fine.
(01:01:06):
And that was my initial purpose.
Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
That's a wonderful way to listened this far is
thinking.
One of the things I say toemployees is if they're not
learning on the job, it's timeto change jobs, and that scares
a lot of employees.
It scares a lot of companies,yes, but our responsibility is
(01:01:37):
to develop people.
Companies, yes, but ourresponsibility is to develop
people.
Our responsibility as a societyis to have people that are
educated to the point that theycan continue our society, and
we've got universities that areoffering degrees.
I'd love to see a situationwhere every single class is
evaluated at every single schoolin the country, and the
(01:02:00):
question that's asked is if Iknow that, can I make a living
wage?
If I can't, I'm not going toleave the class there, I'm going
to get rid of it, and you getrid of 70% of the classes that
are out there, and I'm not goingto name them, but you can
probably figure them all out.
So you know, I hope we can havethis kind of discussion again,
troy, and maybe we'll get morespecific on some of the other
(01:02:22):
ones in the future.
But to the audience out there,thank you for listening.
I hope you got something out ofthis and I look forward to
having you attend another candidconversation in the very near
future.
Thank you for your time, ron,it's my pleasure.
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