November 14, 2024 • 62 mins
Dr. Colleen Saringer, an expert on workplace toxicity, joins us for an episode rich with insights and personal stories. Growing up in a blue-collar family in Cleveland, Ohio, Dr. Colleen's background shapes her unique perspective on the challenges many face in toxic work environments. A passionate runner and mental health advocate, she shares her journey from marathon starting lines to advocating for healthier work cultures, all while revealing her love for Halloween. Our conversation navigates through her personal experiences and the broader implications of workplace health, reflecting on the powerful impact of fostering supportive environments.
The severe consequences of toxic workplaces are laid bare as we explore the intense pressures that can lead to mental and physical health issues, including the heart-wrenching reality of workplace-related suicides. With Dr. Colleen's guidance, we examine the vital role of HR departments and the need for dedicated leaders in transforming workplace culture. Together, we emphasize the importance of manageable working hours and collective action, encouraging employees to seek better conditions through unity and courage. This discussion sheds light on the essential qualities needed to drive cultural change and safeguard employee well-being.
Public speaking emerges as a transformative tool for both Dr. Colleen and myself, underscoring the power of storytelling and vulnerability in making a meaningful impact. We share our journeys of leaving comfort zones, embracing improv, and pursuing passion-aligned paths. Through this, we discover the true art of communication and the bravery required to pitch oneself as a leader. As we conclude, Dr. Colleen's unwavering commitment to reducing workplace suicides to zero serves as a poignant reminder of the stakes involved. Join us for an episode that promises to inspire change and foster a healthier future for workplaces everywhere.
Connect with Dr Colleen:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleen-saringer-phd/
Website: https://www.colleensaringer.com/
Make yourself a priority and get more done:
https://www.depthbuilder.com/do-the-damn-thing
Download a PDF copy of Becoming the Promise You are Intended to Be
https://www.depthbuilder.com/books
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I started working when I was 13.
Like, the option in our housewas to work.
Am I nervous?
Am I uncomfortable?
Hell yeah, but I'm so freakingexcited from the energy that
comes from it.
I wanted to be able to, like,ask more questions and find the
misfits and the outliers anduncover the stuff that we're not
talking about, but we need tobe one.
(00:21):
Suicide that is related to workenvironments is too many.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
What is going on L&M family.
I'm back and we got a good onefor you, dr Colleen Sandrington,
who I got to meet in person inSavannah.
Shout out to Ms Megan forputting that Savannah in
September thing together.
(00:49):
We got to me.
I got to sit right next to herand like feed off of her energy
I love this little moniker BlueCollar Woman Wrapped in a PhD
Package, so that makes me feel alittle more comfortable.
Ms Dr Colleen is a keynotespeaker and she attacks, works
on chews, on challenges, thehidden toll of workplace
(01:12):
toxicity.
So all my culture warriors outthere, I think this conversation
is going to resonate with youand I know that I'm going to
learn a little bit.
And if you're new here, this isthe Learnings and Missteps
podcast, where you get to seehow real people just like you
(01:32):
are sharing their gifts andtalents to leave this world
better than they found it.
I'm Jesse and let's get to knowDr Colleen.
Dr Colleen, how are you doing?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
I'm doing great.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I can't complain.
It's Halloween.
I hope that's okay to say that,but it's one of my favorite
days out of the entire year.
I love the month of October, soI'm doing great today.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
So, okay, what are your thoughts If you had to take
a pick between Halloween,thanksgiving and Christmas?
What's your order?
One, two, three.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Literally exactly how you just said them Halloween,
thanksgiving and Christmas.
And what's your order?
One, two, three.
Literally exactly how you justsaid them Halloween,
thanksgiving and Christmas.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
You said them perfect , I love them in the order that
they are oh nice.
And is it the dress up aboutHalloween?
The candy?
What is it that gets youexcited?
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So for me it is definitely great memories as a
kid, trick-or-treating, and thenas an adult it is fall.
To me October is the best month.
Everywhere in the world it isthe best month the colors, the
temperature, so that.
And then I love the decorations.
I decorate inside my house so Ican enjoy the decorations.
(02:42):
What good are they outside if Ican't see them?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Ah, yes, I super like that, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, that's how I would answer it.
Yeah, what about you?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, I love.
I'm going to say Thanksgiving,then Halloween, then Christmas.
Thanksgiving is because of thefood, right, like I could just
gorge and gorge and eatdelicious stuff everywhere I go,
and in San Antonio it's liketamales season, right?
So tamales galore everywhere.
That's not to say I can't getthem all year round, but during
(03:15):
that Thanksgiving season itfeels like that's when a lot of
people make them at home and soI get to go and scab and eat
somebody's delicious proteinbars they're known as protein
bars now.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah yeah, it's a joke.
Right Like they're.
They're not necessarily aprotein bar.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
They're a lot of fat and cholesterol.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Right, right, but if you call it a protein bar, maybe
it qualifies.
So, doctor, you are a doctor,like official PhD, peer-reviewed
publications and all kinds ofreally pretty fancy stuff.
No joke, serious business.
What are the secrets thatpeople don't know about you?
(03:54):
But they should?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
So thank you for calling out the PhD.
I really appreciate that.
That was hard-ass work, but Isigned up for it myself.
No one told me that I had to doit, so I got to feel my nerdy
brain, which I think that'smaybe one of the secrets is I'm
like total nerd in a good way,right, like I love to ask
questions, peel the layer of theonion back as many times as I
(04:18):
can, and that's why I got a PhD.
I wanted to be able to like askmore questions and find the
misfits and the outliers anduncover the stuff that we're not
talking about.
But we need to be.
So that's one thing.
The other thing I'll say I'moriginally from Cleveland Ohio,
so that's why I call myself thatblue collar woman wrapped in a
(04:39):
PhD package.
I am a lunch pail city kid, likethat is.
My parents owned a sheet metalshop growing up.
As I was growing up, they ranit for 30 years, so I love the
smell of a good shop.
Take me into a Home Depot anyday of the week.
Yeah, so from Cleveland Ohio,but live in Atlanta, georgia.
I'm trying to think what else?
What other kind of fun things?
(05:00):
I'm a runner, I talk health andwellbeing.
I live it, I breathe it.
It's like it's my thing.
So I'm a runner.
I've run 17 marathons.
Just crossed the finish line ofmy 17th in Hartford,
connecticut, a couple of weeksago.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Congratulations.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, and then the last thing that I'll say is I am
super focused on mental health,and that's because that I have
a story.
I think many of us have a story, and I think, when I think
about the work that I'm reallytrying to lean into when it
comes to organizations isbecause my story has roots in my
(05:37):
family, and I think we all doin some way, and so that's the
kind of last thing that I'llshare, unless you want me to,
unless you want to peel thelayer of the onion back.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Oh, I'm going to peel away, sister, you've got to
believe.
So I've run a few marathonsmyself.
I'm not at 17.
I've done six.
I don't have a PhD, but I Idated um, an amazing human being
who worked and earned her EDD.
So I know, or I have a sense ofthe tenacity and endurance it
(06:09):
takes to run a marathon and getthe PhD.
Now that is just through, likeobservation.
I had nothing, like I didn't doany of the damn work, but I
could see the commitment andsacrifice.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Now, and so my question is when did that
tenacity and commitment tothings like marathon running and
earning a PhD, when did youfirst become aware of that
Option in our house was to workright?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So, as I'm saying, this out loud.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Maybe that's it, but when I think about, like, when I
did have to like officiallyattach a resume to something or,
sorry, a cover letter to aresume, my cover letter always
talked about my tenacity.
I always said I have this levelof tenacity.
I don't know if I can actuallylike point to something, but I
think that's part of theupbringing right.
(07:05):
I can actually like point tosomething, but I think that's
part of the upbringing right.
My roots was raised by babyboomer parents and, yeah, our
option was to work when weturned 13, like that was the
option, and so I think theanswer really does wrap itself
around all the things that weknow our environment influences
us for in regards to what webecome.
I would say, when I think aboutwho my parents are, what they
(07:26):
taught me.
I mean they were both businessowners together.
The option was to just go andfigure it out.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
And I imagine if they were both business owners, you
got to watch them like workduring the day and then all the
work that happens like outsideof the office in terms of
managing the business and thehousehold and everything else
Like you hear people nowadaystalking about passive income and
this sort of thing but youdon't really understand like
it's all work.
(07:54):
It all works it just looksdifferent.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yes, exactly, and like that, passive income
doesn't just come.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I know it's work.
If it's work, then it makes ithappen, Right?
Yes, oh, my goodness, so okay.
So, PhD, what was your field ofstudy?
Or what was the dissertationthat you produced and had to
defend?
What was that about?
(08:24):
Before we get to that, we aregoing to do the L&M family
member shout out and I got onethat I'm excited about.
It kind of makes me blush alittle bit, but this one goes to
Mr Ben.
Mr Ben went out of his way toleave this comment and he said I
noticed a few posts you madeabout haters and wanted to tell
(08:45):
you I'm a Jesse Hernandez fan.
You may not hear that enough.
I've seen your work, lived yourbackstory and believe in you
and your message.
It's easy to get mixed upsometimes, but I know what you
can do and I'm thrilled to watchyou do it Best.
Regards Ben.
So Ben, thank you so much fortaking the time to leave such a
(09:07):
thoughtful note.
And folks out there, L&M familyyou know any creators at all?
I promise you if you leave acomment, you will make their day
.
It is super, super meaningfulbecause very few people do that.
And if you take the time toleave a review, leave a comment
or whatever for me, I'm going totake the opportunity to
highlight you on future podcastinterviews.
(09:29):
So again, let's keep doing therecognition and the support.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So my dissertation, what I am all about policy at
work and not in policies thatpenalize people.
Policy gets such a bad rap, butwe are not talking about the
policies that remove barriersfor people to then do something
better for themselves.
Okay, so I researched anddefended physical activity
(09:59):
policies in the workplace,specifically giving individuals
at minimum 30 minutes out oftheir workday.
No penalty to work hours, also,not at lunch.
This was in addition to lunchand whatever breaks they had to
go and move.
And because it's a PhD, youframe it around something.
(10:22):
So I framed it around creatingthis.
Again, it's removing barriers.
If I only have 30 minutes, thenI framed it around walk routes
that were already mapped outsideand broke it down by 10 minute
increments, 15 minute incrementsand 30 minute increments, so
that if I only had 10 minutes, Icould run outside and do that
Now.
The other thing, though, is Idid my, even though I'm here in
(10:46):
Atlanta.
When I did my PhD, I got somany no's because I wanted a.
I mean, I needed a real companyto do what to do this.
And everybody said no, they'relike it's going to cost me all
this money, Like my peoplearen't going to be doing,
they're not going to be working.
The best part was I had a lawfirm, billable hours a law firm,
(11:06):
so they were out of Cleveland,and it was just a reminder of
you have to take into accountelements, winter, so you also
then create walk routes insidethe company.
You can do that, we can do thateverywhere.
So, anyways, that's what Iresearched, and the whole point
was to see does that increaseindividuals' level of physical
activity, productivity, all thatgood stuff.
(11:28):
So it was pretty successful.
It's published.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Nice Congratulations Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
It's a big policy person.
Because that is how when weremove the barriers for people,
that is how they then walk intothat choice we make it the easy
choice period.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yes, so, like we said , the policies are the
parameters of the boundaries,constraints, whatever word you
want to plug in that set theconditions for people to grow or
shrink in, would you agree?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Absolutely.
It can go both ways, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, yeah, because I've been in a few situations
where it was all about shrinkageand that was not part.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Right.
So that's bad policy, negative.
We only want positive policieswhen it comes to bettering the
workplace, we don't want topenalize, we want it to be a
positive.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Oh, my goodness.
Okay, so 13 years old.
For folks out there that don'thave the numbers one and nine
before their year of their birth, we used to have to go to the
business and fill outapplications.
You remember that, dr Colleen?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yes, although that is not how I got my job, but yes,
oh, how did you do it then?
So after church, we went intothis bakery and there was a
woman that I or a girl, I guessat the time, cause I was 13 that
was working there, that went tomy high school, and my mom was
like, oh, are you guys hiringshe needs a job?
(13:00):
And they were like yes, we are,I'll see you on Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
That was everything.
After that, though, I did writethe paper application.
Would you credit thoseexperiences to triggering or
planting the seeds of curiosityin your head around
organizational health and thesetypes of situations that maybe
are ignored, overlooked or undermisunderstood in terms of
(13:37):
culture?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
So, yeah, so, and, of course, interrupt me if you
feel like I'm not answering thequestion, but I would 100% point
it back to my parents.
Ah, because of what I watched,because of how I watched my
parents, mostly my dad and hishealth and the impact that it
had on him Okay.
(14:00):
So I was five years old whenthey opened up this business.
They start my dad and mygrandfather went in on it
together, mostly because mygrandfather had just lost his
job.
He only had about five yearsleft to work.
This was a great opportunityfor him to finally open up this
business that he always wantedto do with my dad.
So, going into it, they knewthat he was only going to be
there for a short time, so, fastforward that time comes, where
(14:23):
my grandfather is transitioningout really more so, like the day
came.
Yeah, my dad was, cause he wasa sheet metal worker so he would
handle the guys outside and allthat stuff, but he was doing
some internal office work.
But in hindsight he'll tell youit wasn't enough right, because
what happened was when thatbaton was fully passed on.
(14:45):
He was running the business theway my grandfather was, not the
way he could handle, and as aresult of that and I share this
in this keynote speech, that Ido, but as a result of the
stress and the pressure.
One, he's a man.
I mean we have to call it whatit is right.
Men and women, we are raisedwith just different.
Man.
I mean we have to call it whatit is right Men and women, we
(15:06):
are raised with just different.
We're just raised different,right.
And so because not only is he aman, he has a wife, three kids,
I have two sisters.
He was so overwhelmed fromtrying to transition fully that
he planned on taking his lifeone day, and instead he drove
himself to the hospital.
And so that's how I learnedabout the toll that the work the
(15:31):
environment can have on a human, so that I would say that, and
then I would even fast forwardat this point in time.
Now I'm, I am actually like incollege and deciding my major.
I'll never forget my dad was 48and finally, things were
running on his own.
Him and my mom had their ownflow.
This was years later, and I'llnever forget saying to him dad,
(15:54):
you are going to have a heartattack.
You are so stressed out.
Something had shifted in thebusiness.
He was so stressed out.
Sure enough, he had a heartattack, he's retired and all the
things right.
But in hindsight, work can be,at the end of the day, the work
is the work.
The sheet metal work was thesheet metal work.
We're not going to change thatwork ever.
We're not going to changeconstruct.
(16:16):
We can't change the work, butwe can change the way that we
treat ourselves others.
So it's a long-winded way tosay that I do believe that those
are the things that really kindof nudged me along my path.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, it's obvious to me If you see your dad, of all
people you see every daysuffering and struggling and
fighting, and, just like yousaid, the sheep, like people,
ask me all the time what do youthink is the hardest trade?
None of them, it's all the samestuff.
Nobody's doing anything likemagical.
We connect things together andput them up in a certain order.
(16:52):
That's not the hard part.
Physically, there's some toll.
The part that, like, really isdifficult is the human part,
right, the way we treatourselves about the pressures
and stuff that are within thework and the way we treat others
with regard to the pressure,pressures and stresses of the
work.
And so you got to see thatimpacting your dad directly, so
(17:16):
much so that he was willing toend his life and he didn't.
So thank goodness for that.
But then you predicted a heartattack and he had a heart attack
which is like thisUnfortunately, this is not a
rare story, except that hedidn't like he drove himself to
the hospital.
That's kind of rare.
But the fact that the workitself, or the pressures of the
(17:38):
work, of the role andresponsibility that he had, made
life intolerable for him, thatis not an uncommon story,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Absolutely.
I mean one of the things when Ilook at the stuff that I taught
the stuff hello.
I could probably use betterlanguage than that.
But when I look at what I talkabout in regards to toxic work
environments and what isactually like research has told
us will exacerbate anxiety,depression, suicidal thoughts
and suicides.
One of them is long workinghours, those high demand there
(18:14):
is an actual number around howmany hours.
And so when I always look atthat one and I think, yeah, I
mean dad.
I would see him wake up at fouro'clock in the morning to go to
one of the job sites, get homeat 11.
I don't know what time he's, Idon't know when he slept.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Right, and that was every day for weeks and months
on end.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Until he had that crisis and realized this
business is running me.
I cannot run it this way.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, yeah.
So what would you say to thefolks that are saying, well,
yeah, but that's him running hisbusiness.
I'm an employee and I don'thave the autonomy to change my
situation.
What could they do?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
So I do believe I'm going to answer this with an ant
.
Okay, cause I want to say thisout loud boots on the ground
pains me until there's no end.
Boots on the ground in regardsto advocating like the employee
actually having to push upstreampains me until there is no
tomorrow, because this is thebusiness owner's responsibility
(19:15):
to set that period right.
Yeah, but as an employee, I dohave things that I can still
take control of.
I do have things that I canstill take control of, and those
to me are things like if I dohave an opportunity to leave and
find another job, look forsomething that has predictable
working hours.
(19:45):
So, in other words, when I thinkabout summers here in Atlanta
and I think about my husband whoruns a construction business
down here, we know summers,because of the way the weather
is, are going to be extremelylong or the days are going to be
extremely long, but we knowwhat the working hours are.
We're always going to startearly because of the heat right,
and end early day.
We know Friday is always goingto be a detailed job day because
everyone's exhausted, so it'sgoing to be an easy day because
we're also worried about likesafety and things like that.
(20:06):
So to me, even if you're insideyour current company that
you're working for, you can askthose things, you can push and
say, hey, I risk although I wantto use again saying, and even
though you can ask the boss thatthere may come with the
negative outcome of well, youcan get out of here, right, I
don't want to dismiss that thatsadly, sometimes the option is
(20:28):
we can't speak, but I do believethat there's an opportunity to
advocate for that, not just byyourself but with those around
you.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Sure, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
A boss does not want to see the full crew walk off
the job.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Not at all.
Well, and I agree with you onboth ends.
Yes, decision makers withinorganizations, they got to do
better and we can vote with ourfeet.
And I understand how scary thatis.
Well, maybe I don't, becauseI'm a little crazy.
Right?
If I don't like the way I'mbeing treated, I'm out.
Done, I'm moving to the nextone.
Done, I'm moving to the nextone.
(21:02):
And that's probably scary for alot of folks because they have
different responsibilities, toadd family and all these things.
But at least in theconstruction industry, you don't
have to tolerate peopleneglecting and abusing you.
There is plenty of work outthere, so much, and there is a
growing number of leaders thatare creating a situation that
(21:24):
better serves their people andthat the way to accelerate that
number is for those of us in badsituations to leave those
situations.
Yes, and I understand it'sdifficult, I understand it's
scary, but we do have a say Likewe do have a vote.
We really do.
But we do have a say like we dohave a vote, we really do.
(21:45):
And the business owners are theones that struggle or really
carry.
They're the ones that have themost leverage to make it better,
faster.
Yes, and so it's myunderstanding that you help
counsel, advise small businessowners on how to do it more
gooder for their people.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
More gooder.
I love that you said that.
So can I also just make onequick additional comment about
back to the employee, Because Ithink, because I love what you
said yes, there, there are somepeople that can't do it Right
and I respect that.
Fear is there.
I come from a money like ascarcity money mindset.
I'm not going to dismiss thefact that it is there.
(22:22):
It's scary.
But also to the pushback is youcan set your boundaries to.
That's another voiceopportunity to advocate for
yourself and the crew or whoeverof I'm.
This is what I was hired to do.
This is the box that I'mworking in, period Yep.
So anyways, I didn't want todismiss that.
But so yeah, absolutely yeah.
(22:43):
So all that to say yes, I do.
I.
My focus is the small businessowner, because I do believe two
things.
One, small businesses.
I mean that's what runs America.
As far as I'm concerned, theywe make up just about 50% of the
economy.
That's what runs.
Small business runs the economy.
And then two small businesseshave the opportunity to make the
(23:06):
workplaces great.
The red tape isn't there andyou don't need money to do these
things.
It is just teeny, tinypractices.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
No cost.
So let's talk more about that.
It doesn't cost money.
So two simple examples maybenot simple, but two practical
examples of things that smallbusiness owner can do that
aren't going to cost them anymoney but will transform their
(23:37):
culture and provide a betterenvironment for their people.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
One get boots on the ground with your people.
I want to see that businessowner working side by side with
those guys at some point on ajob that right there.
If you want to build trust andrespect, there is nothing better
than seeing the boss boots onthe ground, rolling up the
sleeve doing the dirty work.
I watched it work for my dad.
(24:02):
I see it work for my husband.
It is a no brainer.
Get in the throes with yourguys or your gals, whoever.
One easy peasy.
The other thing that does is itfosters.
The biggest thing that I push isthe employee voice.
Ask people, they have theanswers.
So me boss.
(24:23):
I think I know what my companyneeds and my people need.
You have no idea they do.
They do, so ask them.
I'm actually going to throw ina third.
But all that to say you cannotcreate better unless your boot's
on the ground at some pointwith your employees, that you're
(24:44):
talking to them and asking fortheir voice and for the solution
, because then they are going tobe bought in because they
helped.
Right, they are going to befull throttle.
And then the third one and thisis going to sound so silly, but
I cannot say this loud enough.
Be kind, say good morning, besafe.
(25:09):
Thank you for your hard worktoday.
Wow, that was nothing.
That's a game changer.
People want to be seen andheard and feel as though that
could change someone's life.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Oh, I love it and I agree 100%.
That's kind of what I help,that kind of it's an element of
what I do in helping the clientsthat I serve is the magic is
when you go and spend time maybenot observing and even doing
the work that the people do.
(25:41):
You, as a leader, build empathyfor the work and the worker,
because now you understand howmuch it actually sucks, yes, and
then you're compelled to makeit better.
Like this sucks Now and, likeyou said, we're sweating
together, we're kind of grimingit up together.
(26:05):
We now have a foundation fortrust and dialogue, just by
proximity, just by being in thesame place, together, focused on
the same objective.
And, like you said, they arethe ones who've been
experiencing the damn pain ofthe work.
So they have the ones who'vebeen experiencing the damn pain
of the work.
So they have the ideas.
You, as the leader, you havethe influence and authority to
(26:28):
make it better.
You need them to inform you onwhat exactly precisely to do to
make it better and then, oncethat flywheel gets going, it's
magic.
So, and if you can't do that,try to be kind.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yes, yes, just say hello and good morning.
And how was your thank you?
Thank you for sweating all day.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, exactly Know their name.
Thank you, demonstrate someappreciation.
I've been banging the drum onthis because I got to see it.
Where was I?
Where's Des Moines, iowa?
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Iowa right, I was in Iowa.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, and it was a big old, giant data center and
we had, I don't know, somewherelike 800 or 900 electricians on
it, a lot of them from out ofstate traveling into work.
There was another data centerby a competing general
contractor and a competing ownercoming up down the road.
They offered a stipend to theelectricians that were on our
project to go over there acouple hundred bucks a week for
(27:31):
every electrician that would goover there.
And we were like, oh my God,everybody's going to leave,
we're going to lose ourelectricians.
About 15, 20% of them went andthey weren't like the cream of
the crop 15 or 20%, it was likethe pains in the butt, the prima
donna, those.
And so I got to ask the rest ofthem why didn't y'all?
(27:52):
That's 200 bucks a week, that'sa year, that's 10 grand.
Why did you stay?
And oh no, we've worked on withthat contractor, we know how
they're going to treat us.
It is not worth the $200.
Over here We've got clean,paved parking, we've got a place
to eat lunch, things areorganized, we can get work like.
(28:14):
It is not worth the 200 bucks.
And so, like my take, this wasyears.
It was, I don't know, maybefour or five years ago.
But my take was oh my goodness,people are giving passing on
dollars, which still doesn'tmake sense to me.
It just tells you how greedy Iam to work in better conditions.
And so the leaders, thedecision makers that figure out
(28:38):
how to systematicallydemonstrate appreciation for the
people that they haveconnection or contact with,
they're going to win this game.
Am I lying?
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Oh my gosh, you're speaking 100%.
It's a no-brainer and we haveresearch that backs it up.
People are not going to goacross the street for an extra
buck in these really hard jobsif they know that they have it
really good where they are.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Yes, yes, just being treated like a human?
Yes.
So I was perusing your websiteand I saw that it feels like
maybe you've had people havemade references to you being
from, or in the HR world, andthere you have a clear
(29:28):
delineation between HR andorganizational health.
Did I interpret that correctly?
Speaker 1 (29:33):
And I feel very strongly about making sure that
is understood.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Oh, so let's talk about it please.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Understood.
Oh, so let's talk about itplease.
Yeah, so this is no insult tothose individuals that have
human resource jobs.
I have friends that like that'swhat their job is, Yay, it's
the department and what thedepartment stands for.
That I do believe we have setup for failure.
(30:01):
That I do believe we have setup for failure.
We are asking them to do thisorganizational change work,
which we have said.
We don't want to spend anyextra money have HR do it is for
the company, that is who theyare for.
Again, we have set up people forfailure in this department if
(30:21):
we are asking them to take thiswork.
In addition to that, with alldue respect, they also don't
have the training.
They don't understand thebehavior change.
I understand that there's someclasses and things like that,
that a lot of happens within thehuman resource world, but there
is some science behind some ofthis in regards to human, in
(30:44):
regards to the organization, andso that's the other part of me
that's a little protective,right To say let's bring in the
experts to do the work.
Would HR be at the table?
100%, Every department needs tobe at the table for this work,
but you have to have somebodyleading the charge or else
(31:05):
nothing happens.
And again, I believe if we setHR up to lead the charge, we're
really setting ourselves up forfailure because of what the
department stands for.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah, yes, yeah, oh, I love it.
So I'm not the only one I agreeon several points.
I, I love it.
So I'm not the only one I agreeon several points.
For a long time I misunderstoodHR to be an advocate for me as
the employee, because some HRprofessionals actually are and
they manage.
(31:38):
They have learning managementsystems under their purview,
they've got recruiting undertheir purview, they've got
talent management and protectingthe company from liability,
which is their core, the corefunction of the human resource
element, which too many of usaren't aware of.
I know a lot of people that getreally irritated with their HR
(32:01):
department.
It's like they don't want tochange.
That means they're doing theirjob right.
Their job is to maintain Ishouldn't say their.
The HR function serves toprotect the business.
It serves to maintain thestatus quo and guard the
business against liability.
That's the HR function.
Human beings that fall in thatdepartment often will take on
(32:24):
extra responsibility and willsay tightwad, business owners
try to make hr do all the otherstuff that's too fluffy and
squishy and they set them up forfailure, just just like you
said.
Now I can say hey, dr Colleensaid it ain't just me, jesse
(32:45):
smack talking plumber.
Dr Colleen said too.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
But you said it, perfect.
I mean there are some amazingpeople in that function.
That again friends of mine andI know they want to do right by
their people but they can't.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Right Because they have this certain level of or
directive right the directive,their responsibility, their core
function is this, and so isthat what the idea of chief
culture officer comes from.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah, 100%.
So there are some companies outthere that have started to
bring on chief well-beingofficers.
The word well-being, just, wecan save that for a whole nother
conversation because it getssuch a negative connotation.
And so, at the end of the day,yes, we are trying to enhance
(33:37):
the well-being of theorganization and the people, but
the only way we can do that isthrough the culture, and again,
we also need someone to lead thecharge.
Any party that you ever wantedto plan, it never happened,
unless there was one person thatwas always bringing the circus
together, right?
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
So that's so long-winded to say yes, that's
what that is.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Good.
So when we're thinking, let'sjust say I've seen the error of
my ways or one of the L&M familymembers out there running their
business, ok, this damn peoplething is important.
(34:24):
What should they look for in?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
a culture officer or somebody to lead the charge of
growing, maintaining,stabilizing all the work that
goes into the culture of acompany.
So they do have to have someform of behavioral health
training, and that is not just.
I took a class.
I studied overarching healthand wellbeing and promotion all
the things that go under it.
So they do have to have someform of training.
(34:46):
In addition to againunderstanding how the
organization works, you have toalso have a business brain at
the table and that is notnecessarily like to me.
Sometimes I do believe that'sinnate.
Like I consider myself anextreme business person, that's
just something that I learnedfrom being the product of
business owners.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yeah, do you know it.
So why is that important tohave with that business brain?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Because of the fact that this culture, work is, it's
going to thread itself throughevery single aspect of the
working business and it'sbusiness.
So we're going to have someform of metrics right.
Some use the word KPI, whateverfancy word you want.
There has to be some way tomeasure it, and so if you don't
(35:35):
understand that from just ageneral business sense, then I
just feel like you're only therefor kind of like a one track of
I want to do this and I want todo that.
I get it, but there is still abusiness mind that has to figure
out.
Okay, this priority can't happenright now because of X, we will
table that, we won't throw itaway, but we have to do Y.
(35:57):
So even if we have an order wewant to follow, sometimes we
have to go out of order becausethe business tells us we have to
do why.
So, even if we have an order wewant to follow, sometimes we
have to go out of order becausethe business tells us we have to
.
So at the end of the day,business still has to run right.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
That was a hard lesson I had tolearn and I don't know why I
still haven't figured outexactly why because I'm very
production focused, right mybrain automatic, like I'm
calculating how long does ittake to do something and how can
we do that better, faster.
But I've always I shouldn't sayalways in the two big jobs I've
(36:30):
had like real jobs.
Eventually I migrated towardsthe people department, right
that, the organizational health,learning and development, hr.
For some reason I could jivewith those folks.
Now, early on I wanted to dostuff because I knew or believed
(36:52):
and felt like it would bebetter, but I could not make a
case because I didn't understandhow to contextualize it into
business terms.
And then I saw my friends and,in case y'all don't know, l&m
family member, you want to bewith some wild, crazy people
when it's time to get loose HRprofessionals, you better be
(37:18):
ready because they are.
There's something else.
Anyways, that's off script.
I saw so many of my friends inthe people department or people
centered roles, I guess, likejust be so frustrated and
irritated because they would getrejected outright, their ideas
would get minimized anddisregarded.
(37:42):
And it was for the same reasonbecause they couldn't
contextualize it in businessterms, meaning, what's the cost,
how long is it going to takefor us to make some kind of
obvious impact on performance,on the business, on production
or whatever?
Like just get in the box somekind of idea of what the end
result should look like and itwas like well, but it's the
(38:03):
right thing to do, we know it.
Okay, fine.
And so they didn't have muchground to stand on.
They lost a lot of credibilitybecause they couldn't make
themselves a valued businesspartner at the table.
They had a lot of ideas, theyhad a lot of opinions.
They had a lot of opinions.
And so what are some thingsthese people, centered
(38:24):
individuals can do so that theycan understand how to translate
their ideas, so that thedecision makers will be
supportive of it and say, yeahyou use the word business
partner.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
You have to understand the partnership right
With every business unit.
So if you have this grand idea,cool, go take it to the sales
department, find out whatthey're measuring, what their
pain points are, what ask themto partner with you to help you
be able to put it in differentterms.
Okay, this is how it's going toimpact sales.
(39:02):
Okay, now let's go toproduction.
All right, what are your painpoints?
What are your right Like?
They have the answers.
It all goes back to theemployee voice or the department
voice.
They're the partner, like.
They're the ones that are goingto help you create the business
case, and you also are going toneed their buy-in, so you may
as well start early and ask themright.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
That is an easy win right there.
I think it's a no-brainer.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, it is a no-brainer when it's your
default mode, but for a lot ofpeople it's not right.
I have my great idea, I want tobring it to the table.
My title says director ofwhatever and nobody's buying
into my idea because it's onlymy idea.
I haven't socialized the ideaat all, and if I were to
socialize the idea I could getreally valuable intel to weave
(39:54):
into my pitch and I'll alreadyhave some advocacy because
people know that I'm tinkeringaround with this thing.
And so it's just like you saidearlier to the business owner go
talk to the damn people.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
They hold the key to the castle of success, literally
.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Oh, it's so simple.
It's just be cool, right, behuman, go talk to people, listen
to them.
I know, for me, one of thestruggles I've had is like
demoting my objectivetemporarily so that I can really
understand your objective.
(40:34):
That helped me make a lot ofprogress in terms of making
recommendations that were goingto require a significant dollar
investment.
They were going to requiresignificant time of executives
within the BU or theorganization to do the thing,
but because I spent a lot oftime talking and learning and
(40:55):
understanding and was able tocraft the message and said this
is the commitment and the costand this is the targeted outcome
.
And this is the commitment andthe cost and this is the
targeted outcome and this is howit relates.
I didn't know that upfront andI couldn't Google it.
I had to talk to the people,right?
Like again, talk to the people.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
But I think we can't dismiss.
We're also human and ego isalways going to come to play
right, and that's cool.
Feel it and then put it on theshelf.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
No ego amigo because it's not going to get you far,
but that's cool, feel it.
And then put it on the shelf.
No, ego, amigo, because it'snot going to get you far, but
(41:41):
that's okay for me to come up toyou and say, dr Colleen, I got
this initiative, I want toaccomplish this thing.
This is why I'm talking to youand put that on the shelf.
Help me understand what yourexperience is on this matter,
because I'm not going tomanipulate or convince or strong
arm you into agreeing with me.
(42:02):
I told you what my objective is.
Put it on the shelf.
Help me understand what yourexperience is from this
particular set of circumstances,because we want to do something
differently about it.
And in that conversation youget to say, jesse, you're
barking up the wrong tree.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
It's not a problem for me, darn it, let me go find
somebody else, right, but Ithink you said the most
important question or phrase.
Help me understand thatimmediately.
That's gold when you set thatup for it.
It's not a.
I want to do this.
Help me understand.
(42:37):
Do you have the same challenge?
If yes, or maybe you see it,whatever the case may be, that
is the gold question.
Slash statement.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Oh, okay, folks, you already heard.
Write it down.
Hit the rewind button.
Does it even qualify as arewind button?
Speaker 1 (42:52):
I think we could say it qualifies.
I think it's got to think.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Write it down.
There's the secret code.
Okay, so, phd, you've run 300million marathons.
That's a lot of miles, like forreal, and because I know
running a 26.2 mile race,there's hundreds of miles that
go into the train.
(43:18):
Well, it may not be miserable,but it's work.
Got your PhD, that's no simpletask.
You're running your ownbusiness now and public speaking
.
I'm going to say, or ask is thepublic speaking thing, keynote
speaking, the primary objective?
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Yeah, it is.
It has become my primaryobjective.
I had to take a consult andeducate more from a state, and
so I want to see the workplacebe better than it has been for
me.
I just want to see it be better.
People do love going to work.
There's community there.
We should want to go to work,but a lot of people don't right.
(44:24):
So all that, my goal is toimpact more and I believe that's
possible from stage and ifsomebody wants to work with me
after that, I mean I tee up myframework and all that good
stuff that we'll do.
And if we were to go deeperfrom a client relationship but
there's enough information Ifeel like in the presentations
(44:45):
that somebody could at leastwalk away with something.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Oh, I love that, Okay .
So how long did it take you tosay you know what?
The vehicle to help me achievethe outcome I want is public
speaking.
How long did it take you to seekind of like a foggy
representation of that?
Maybe there's something inpublic speaking to.
This is the damn thing I'mgonna do so.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
So one of the things I didn't share is so I left
corporate in in April of 2023 soit's been over a year and a
half when I said I'm done, Iwant to make a bigger impact
Right.
And so I always spoke.
I was always at the table forsales meetings because, at the
(45:30):
end of the day, it's aneducational conversation, right,
like sales is.
If you're doing it well, it'snot sales, right?
So sign me up to yap at a salesmeeting, sign me up to yap at a
.
And I'm yapping because I getto educate.
I'm an educator at heart.
That's who I am, and so Ialways did that in my corporate
life and loved it.
(45:50):
I mean, it fueled my fire.
And so when I left and said,okay, I'm going to go out on my
own, I want to focus on smallbusiness I felt like I had to.
What I learned growing up workyou have to do it this way.
There's this, right.
And so I felt, okay, I've gotto go straight into consulting,
thinking that, in addition toconsulting, I'll try to get in
(46:13):
front of more associations,conferences, things like that,
and I finally the resistancethat I was just feeling in
myself of this doesn't feel good.
I didn't feel any differentthan when I left the company
that I walked away from.
It's because I'm not being trueto myself.
I had to have a self-awarenesscheck.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Okay, yes.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Out loud.
I'm like I'm not being true tome, shame on me.
So that so it was about midyear this year that I said I've
got to flip this.
I've got to flip it to whatexcites me, and that's what
excites me.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
Oh my goodness, I love that.
You pointed out that there wasan internal friction that you
knew like something's wrong.
I know what's wrong.
It's my focus, oh my God.
I know what's wrong.
(47:08):
It's my focus, oh my God.
Because I know on my path andmany of the L&M family members
out there, we have that.
We have that friction and wetry to suppress it and we
reinforce it because otherpeople think we're already crazy
, doing crazy things.
What's wrong with you leavingthat corporate job?
What the hell are you doing?
You had it like all of that,but your heart, your soul, is
telling you, man, something likethis, ain't it?
(47:28):
You got to do somethingdifferently, and for me, that
falls in the realm of becomingthe promise you are intended to
be.
I feel believe that we all area promise to be fulfilled, and
discovering or surrendering towhat that is is the thing.
And I feel like what youdescribed is articulating what
(47:52):
that surrender feels like.
And now I'm going to do this.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, I love that.
Yes, that's exactly it.
You summarized it perfectly.
You put it in words I didn'teven know existed.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Okay.
So you said I'm going to dopublic speaking and did you like
?
Wake up the next day and therewere tons of people knocking on
your door, emails of hey, comedo my keynote Hell, no.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Hell, no, oh, was there work involved?
Back to our original convo.
Guess who gets stages?
The person that's willing topitch and put in the time and
effort.
It's the way it works.
You have to be willing to dothe work, so that's it.
So I'm in the throes of thework, which is making me fine
(48:39):
tune my message and it'sallowing me to learn and stretch
and be really uncomfortable inall the things.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Okay.
So what have you learned aboutyourself?
A couple of lessons sincetaking on and being on, because
I know you were just on stage atthe Speak she conference, and
I'm probably not the only one.
What have you discovered aboutyourself after actually doing it
?
Speaker 1 (49:03):
So this is a fun question.
So I would say that itconfirmed that fire.
When I say it lights me up, amI nervous?
Am I uncomfortable?
Hell yeah, but I'm so freakingexcited from the energy that
comes from it.
So I would say that the otherinteresting thing that I've
(49:25):
learned is how much I do lovestorytelling and sharing and the
vulnerability, but also that Ihave more opportunity to be even
more vulnerable in a good way,in a way that I know right is
going to make a greater impact.
But I'm also still a littlenervous myself, because then
(49:47):
you're like it's all out there,oh yeah.
And then this one is so thisother one I think I may have
mentioned this when we were inSavannah together.
I am, when I speak, I am almostalways scripted and I'm using
air quotes to say that I havepracticed so much that it is
going to come out in extremelyconversational way.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Which means that I have a big opportunity that I
need to learn how to lean intothe unknown when something
doesn't go right.
So the so I signed up for animprov class to try to start, so
I did improv for 10 weeks.
So that was something that Ireally needed to learn more of.
I know my stuff, like we allknow our stuff.
(50:31):
It's the imposter syndrome thatcomes behind us and makes us
feel less than or whatever.
But I'm like, no, I need tostrengthen that muscle.
So I leaned into that one andthen that one is going to be so
silly.
But when I was at that Speakshe event on Sunday, the whole
thing was I wasn't allowed tomove from behind the standing
(50:52):
microphone and I realized thatis not my jam, I need to use the
stage.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
Yes, oh, but that's an.
I need to use the stage.
Yes, oh, that's it, but that'san important thing to know.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Yeah, and you don't know that until you do it, yeah,
and then I'll just probablythrow out one more.
I mean again, I think thefeedback that I've been getting
from what I talk about that'sthe whole reason I'm up there is
that you spoke to me.
Thank you so much.
I wish every CEO could hear youor work with you, or it's that,
(51:22):
it's knowing that I touchedwhat I wanted to touch.
Even if they can't go back totheir workplace and do it, at
least it hits something withinthem, and that's the whole point
, that's the impact part.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Right Cause they know they're not alone anymore.
Impact part Right Cause theyknow they're not alone anymore,
the message you give resonateswith them.
Okay, I'm not some crazy psycho.
Yes, at least there's anotherone.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
If I am, there's a tribe.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Oh, my God, oh, I love it.
So, especially the improv.
I believe it or not, I took animprov class, also sing things,
and it was 10 weeks.
We ended it, capped it off withan onstage presentation with an
audience Did you do the samething Same thing and I got to
make a confession.
But you can't tell anybody.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
No one's listening.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
Right, right, nobody's listening.
So I was.
I really expected to be likethe all-star of the group
Surprise and what I found was ittook about.
We're probably in the fourth orfifth week before I stopped
saying no.
I wasn't saying the word no,but my reaction or response to
(52:37):
the exercises and things that wedid was no, yes, we need to be
yes, and and, for whateverreason, I couldn't yes and I
could only no and I woulddisrupt the flow of the groove
that was happening and it wasdifficult, it was challenging,
and I'm like why do I suck atthis so bad?
(52:57):
Because I'm an easygoing, fun,crazy guy.
That's the mask.
That was the mask.
I didn't know how to let thingsbe and just go with the flow.
And what do you think aboutthat?
Speaker 1 (53:11):
So exactly what was coming up for me with that was
two things.
One, set your team up forsuccess.
Now I finally get the fulltrans, not transition, the full
dotted line or straight linethat so many people are trying
to bring improv to the workplace, because it's literally about
setting up for success, notshutting it down, which is right
(53:33):
, like what was happening.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
Yes, yes, yes.
So it's like being able for meno-transcript with the person
(54:02):
I'm dancing with Not everybody,because I'm kind of again like I
like attention a little toomuch when I'm dancing, I start
watching people to see ifthey're watching me, okay, and
the dance is not as good as if Iwas a hundred percent focused
on my partner.
And so there's a similar thingwhat you talked about in the
workplace as a manager, a personwith responsibility within the
(54:24):
organization, I need to be ableto dance with what's coming,
respond to the pressure, respondto the tempo and adjust
proportionately, or ratherrespond proportionately as
opposed to what we typicallywill do, because we're stressed
and overreact and shut downcreativity, disconnect people
from their agency, and so beingable to just take what's coming
(54:48):
and flow with it, which is theimprov thing, is a monster game
changer.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Yes, oh my gosh.
Yes, I love how you alsoequated that to dancing, because
it's so true.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
Yeah, oh, oh, okay.
So back to Bob, we're gettinginto improv, which is awesome
Public speaking thing.
You said you're doing the work,not so much on getting clear on
what your message is andpresentation and flow of the
delivery.
Getting on stage, what shouldpeople do?
Speaker 1 (55:25):
Getting on stage.
What should people do that youwish you had the time to do 10
times more of?
This is a pitching business.
So you have, literally everysingle day it is a pitch
Reaching out to associations.
That's a big one in regards tolike, hey, do you have an
(55:46):
opportunity for me to write foryour trade magazine, or whatever
the case may be.
So I would answer it that waythose two things.
I know that I'm a leader in myindustry, but no one else does
Right, and so I have to let themknow.
And so it's every single daypitching.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
Nice, nice, and it's working so far.
Speaker 1 (56:02):
It is.
If anything, it's for all theno's I get.
At least I have refined mymessage and that's it.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
Dr Colleen, I think that's an understated thing, and
not just in public speaking.
But like anything, if youstruggle with it, like the fear
of being rejected, I understandthat.
I think that's a human thingthat we all understand.
But if you have a dream thatyou want to bring to life, I
hope that you can make it happenon your first try.
(56:29):
I also know I don't know how tomake that happen except for to
try a bunch of times, and so now, running my business and doing
the crazy things that I do, nowI understand.
Okay, I have this idea that Ineed to pitch, and these first
10 to 20 pitches are just sothat I can get better about my
(56:51):
pitch.
Speaker 1 (56:52):
Yes, so you can get the feedback.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
I'm not going to get better without those reps, and
then when I get good at it, thenI get the yeses.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (57:02):
Oh, 100%.
The majority of life is a noRight.
There's only a few yeses thatcome in life.
Speaker 2 (57:11):
The majority of life is a no.
That's a t-shirt, Dr Colleen.
The majority of life is a no.
Damn, there's some reality foryou.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
It's just.
I wish it was more sunshine androses.
Right, but life is really hard.
It's really freaking hard, butwe still, we can do hard things.
Speaker 2 (57:29):
Oh, a hundred percent .
Oh, my goodness, this has beena great conversation, so I'm
going to bring you around ThirdBay sliding into home.
Okay, let's do it Are you readyfor the big grand finale
question?
I'm ready, Okay.
So it's clear to me and folksout there.
If you didn't get it, maybe youjust need to go listen to the
whole episode again.
But it is clear to me that yougive a damn about people.
(57:53):
You care about the humanexperience in the workplace.
You've made a gigantic shift inyour career so that you can
touch and impact as many livesas you possibly can, and so
that's what makes me excitedabout your answer to this
question.
So the question is this what isthe promise you are intended to
(58:14):
be?
Speaker 1 (58:16):
The promise I am intended to be Now.
Let me just ask you this is nota trick question for me to
remember what you said when yousummarized, not at all Okay.
So the promise that I intend tobe is I.
Right now there is a count forthe number of suicides that are
related to the workplaceenvironment.
It is a messy way to count.
(58:37):
Life is messy, Metrics aremessy.
There is no perfect metricright.
I would argue that this numberthat I'll share is low, but I
think there's a lot of reasonswhy.
Again, measurement, sadly it'sall messy, but in my opinion,
one suicide that is related towork environments is too many.
So the number count as of 2021,because it's always behind is
(59:02):
269.
And so my whole goal in life,before I leave this world, is to
I want to see that go to zero.
There should be nothing, from asuicide standpoint, that is
associated to the workplaceperiod Period.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (59:22):
Wow, amazing.
So L&M family members out therewant to support you in that.
What's the best way for them tohelp support that dream, that
promise that you just shared?
Speaker 1 (59:34):
If there is an association that they're
connected to, that they think Ihave an amazing message that is
around this work that we need todo in the workplace.
If they're connected to anassociation and they're looking
for a speaker, someone to justhelp them understand what it is
that we need to do, I'm theirperson.
(59:55):
Reach out.
They can find me on LinkedIn.
I have my website, which is myname, colleen Seringer, so
that's my ask If there's anybodythat you think you want to
deliver this message to reachout, I have a 10 minute clip
that I can share.
That's a nice summary of whatit sounds like on stage and,
yeah, that's how I would answerthat.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Beautiful.
We'll make sure we have thoselinks in the show notes so that
folks can help you, and I loveit for a lot of different
reasons and I'm grateful thatyou were generous with your time
today.
Did you have fun?
Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Oh my gosh, are you kidding me?
I feel like we could talk foranother hour.
This is so fun.
I started working when I was 13.
Like, the option in our housewas to work.
Am I nervous?
Am I uncomfortable?
Hell yeah, but I'm so freakingexcited from the energy that
comes from it.
I wanted to be able to, like,ask more questions and find the
misfits and the outliers anduncover the stuff that we're not
talking about, but we need tobe one.
(00:21):
Suicide that is related to workenvironments is too many.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
What is going on L&M family.
I'm back and we got a good onefor you, dr Colleen Sandrington,
who I got to meet in person inSavannah.
Shout out to Ms Megan forputting that Savannah in
September thing together.
(00:49):
We got to me.
I got to sit right next to herand like feed off of her energy
I love this little moniker BlueCollar Woman Wrapped in a PhD
Package, so that makes me feel alittle more comfortable.
Ms Dr Colleen is a keynotespeaker and she attacks, works
on chews, on challenges, thehidden toll of workplace
(01:12):
toxicity.
So all my culture warriors outthere, I think this conversation
is going to resonate with youand I know that I'm going to
learn a little bit.
And if you're new here, this isthe Learnings and Missteps
podcast, where you get to seehow real people just like you
(01:32):
are sharing their gifts andtalents to leave this world
better than they found it.
I'm Jesse and let's get to knowDr Colleen.
Dr Colleen, how are you doing?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
I'm doing great.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I can't complain.
It's Halloween.
I hope that's okay to say that,but it's one of my favorite
days out of the entire year.
I love the month of October, soI'm doing great today.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
So, okay, what are your thoughts If you had to take
a pick between Halloween,thanksgiving and Christmas?
What's your order?
One, two, three.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Literally exactly how you just said them Halloween,
thanksgiving and Christmas.
And what's your order?
One, two, three.
Literally exactly how you justsaid them Halloween,
thanksgiving and Christmas.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
You said them perfect , I love them in the order that
they are oh nice.
And is it the dress up aboutHalloween?
The candy?
What is it that gets youexcited?
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So for me it is definitely great memories as a
kid, trick-or-treating, and thenas an adult it is fall.
To me October is the best month.
Everywhere in the world it isthe best month the colors, the
temperature, so that.
And then I love the decorations.
I decorate inside my house so Ican enjoy the decorations.
(02:42):
What good are they outside if Ican't see them?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Ah, yes, I super like that, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, that's how I would answer it.
Yeah, what about you?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, I love.
I'm going to say Thanksgiving,then Halloween, then Christmas.
Thanksgiving is because of thefood, right, like I could just
gorge and gorge and eatdelicious stuff everywhere I go,
and in San Antonio it's liketamales season, right?
So tamales galore everywhere.
That's not to say I can't getthem all year round, but during
(03:15):
that Thanksgiving season itfeels like that's when a lot of
people make them at home and soI get to go and scab and eat
somebody's delicious proteinbars they're known as protein
bars now.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah yeah, it's a joke.
Right Like they're.
They're not necessarily aprotein bar.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
They're a lot of fat and cholesterol.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Right, right, but if you call it a protein bar, maybe
it qualifies.
So, doctor, you are a doctor,like official PhD, peer-reviewed
publications and all kinds ofreally pretty fancy stuff.
No joke, serious business.
What are the secrets thatpeople don't know about you?
(03:54):
But they should?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
So thank you for calling out the PhD.
I really appreciate that.
That was hard-ass work, but Isigned up for it myself.
No one told me that I had to doit, so I got to feel my nerdy
brain, which I think that'smaybe one of the secrets is I'm
like total nerd in a good way,right, like I love to ask
questions, peel the layer of theonion back as many times as I
(04:18):
can, and that's why I got a PhD.
I wanted to be able to like askmore questions and find the
misfits and the outliers anduncover the stuff that we're not
talking about.
But we need to be.
So that's one thing.
The other thing I'll say I'moriginally from Cleveland Ohio,
so that's why I call myself thatblue collar woman wrapped in a
(04:39):
PhD package.
I am a lunch pail city kid, likethat is.
My parents owned a sheet metalshop growing up.
As I was growing up, they ranit for 30 years, so I love the
smell of a good shop.
Take me into a Home Depot anyday of the week.
Yeah, so from Cleveland Ohio,but live in Atlanta, georgia.
I'm trying to think what else?
What other kind of fun things?
(05:00):
I'm a runner, I talk health andwellbeing.
I live it, I breathe it.
It's like it's my thing.
So I'm a runner.
I've run 17 marathons.
Just crossed the finish line ofmy 17th in Hartford,
connecticut, a couple of weeksago.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Congratulations.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, and then the last thing that I'll say is I am
super focused on mental health,and that's because that I have
a story.
I think many of us have a story, and I think, when I think
about the work that I'm reallytrying to lean into when it
comes to organizations isbecause my story has roots in my
(05:37):
family, and I think we all doin some way, and so that's the
kind of last thing that I'llshare, unless you want me to,
unless you want to peel thelayer of the onion back.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Oh, I'm going to peel away, sister, you've got to
believe.
So I've run a few marathonsmyself.
I'm not at 17.
I've done six.
I don't have a PhD, but I Idated um, an amazing human being
who worked and earned her EDD.
So I know, or I have a sense ofthe tenacity and endurance it
(06:09):
takes to run a marathon and getthe PhD.
Now that is just through, likeobservation.
I had nothing, like I didn't doany of the damn work, but I
could see the commitment andsacrifice.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Now, and so my question is when did that
tenacity and commitment tothings like marathon running and
earning a PhD, when did youfirst become aware of that
Option in our house was to workright?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So, as I'm saying, this out loud.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Maybe that's it, but when I think about, like, when I
did have to like officiallyattach a resume to something or,
sorry, a cover letter to aresume, my cover letter always
talked about my tenacity.
I always said I have this levelof tenacity.
I don't know if I can actuallylike point to something, but I
think that's part of theupbringing right.
(07:05):
I can actually like point tosomething, but I think that's
part of the upbringing right.
My roots was raised by babyboomer parents and, yeah, our
option was to work when weturned 13, like that was the
option, and so I think theanswer really does wrap itself
around all the things that weknow our environment influences
us for in regards to what webecome.
I would say, when I think aboutwho my parents are, what they
(07:26):
taught me.
I mean they were both businessowners together.
The option was to just go andfigure it out.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
And I imagine if they were both business owners, you
got to watch them like workduring the day and then all the
work that happens like outsideof the office in terms of
managing the business and thehousehold and everything else
Like you hear people nowadaystalking about passive income and
this sort of thing but youdon't really understand like
it's all work.
(07:54):
It all works it just looksdifferent.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yes, exactly, and like that, passive income
doesn't just come.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I know it's work.
If it's work, then it makes ithappen, Right?
Yes, oh, my goodness, so okay.
So, PhD, what was your field ofstudy?
Or what was the dissertationthat you produced and had to
defend?
What was that about?
(08:24):
Before we get to that, we aregoing to do the L&M family
member shout out and I got onethat I'm excited about.
It kind of makes me blush alittle bit, but this one goes to
Mr Ben.
Mr Ben went out of his way toleave this comment and he said I
noticed a few posts you madeabout haters and wanted to tell
(08:45):
you I'm a Jesse Hernandez fan.
You may not hear that enough.
I've seen your work, lived yourbackstory and believe in you
and your message.
It's easy to get mixed upsometimes, but I know what you
can do and I'm thrilled to watchyou do it Best.
Regards Ben.
So Ben, thank you so much fortaking the time to leave such a
(09:07):
thoughtful note.
And folks out there, L&M familyyou know any creators at all?
I promise you if you leave acomment, you will make their day
.
It is super, super meaningfulbecause very few people do that.
And if you take the time toleave a review, leave a comment
or whatever for me, I'm going totake the opportunity to
highlight you on future podcastinterviews.
(09:29):
So again, let's keep doing therecognition and the support.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So my dissertation, what I am all about policy at
work and not in policies thatpenalize people.
Policy gets such a bad rap, butwe are not talking about the
policies that remove barriersfor people to then do something
better for themselves.
Okay, so I researched anddefended physical activity
(09:59):
policies in the workplace,specifically giving individuals
at minimum 30 minutes out oftheir workday.
No penalty to work hours, also,not at lunch.
This was in addition to lunchand whatever breaks they had to
go and move.
And because it's a PhD, youframe it around something.
(10:22):
So I framed it around creatingthis.
Again, it's removing barriers.
If I only have 30 minutes, thenI framed it around walk routes
that were already mapped outsideand broke it down by 10 minute
increments, 15 minute incrementsand 30 minute increments, so
that if I only had 10 minutes, Icould run outside and do that
Now.
The other thing, though, is Idid my, even though I'm here in
(10:46):
Atlanta.
When I did my PhD, I got somany no's because I wanted a.
I mean, I needed a real companyto do what to do this.
And everybody said no, they'relike it's going to cost me all
this money, Like my peoplearen't going to be doing,
they're not going to be working.
The best part was I had a lawfirm, billable hours a law firm,
(11:06):
so they were out of Cleveland,and it was just a reminder of
you have to take into accountelements, winter, so you also
then create walk routes insidethe company.
You can do that, we can do thateverywhere.
So, anyways, that's what Iresearched, and the whole point
was to see does that increaseindividuals' level of physical
activity, productivity, all thatgood stuff.
(11:28):
So it was pretty successful.
It's published.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Nice Congratulations Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
It's a big policy person.
Because that is how when weremove the barriers for people,
that is how they then walk intothat choice we make it the easy
choice period.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yes, so, like we said , the policies are the
parameters of the boundaries,constraints, whatever word you
want to plug in that set theconditions for people to grow or
shrink in, would you agree?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Absolutely.
It can go both ways, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, yeah, because I've been in a few situations
where it was all about shrinkageand that was not part.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Right.
So that's bad policy, negative.
We only want positive policieswhen it comes to bettering the
workplace, we don't want topenalize, we want it to be a
positive.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Oh, my goodness.
Okay, so 13 years old.
For folks out there that don'thave the numbers one and nine
before their year of their birth, we used to have to go to the
business and fill outapplications.
You remember that, dr Colleen?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yes, although that is not how I got my job, but yes,
oh, how did you do it then?
So after church, we went intothis bakery and there was a
woman that I or a girl, I guessat the time, cause I was 13 that
was working there, that went tomy high school, and my mom was
like, oh, are you guys hiringshe needs a job?
(13:00):
And they were like yes, we are,I'll see you on Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
That was everything.
After that, though, I did writethe paper application.
Would you credit thoseexperiences to triggering or
planting the seeds of curiosityin your head around
organizational health and thesetypes of situations that maybe
are ignored, overlooked or undermisunderstood in terms of
(13:37):
culture?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
So, yeah, so, and, of course, interrupt me if you
feel like I'm not answering thequestion, but I would 100% point
it back to my parents.
Ah, because of what I watched,because of how I watched my
parents, mostly my dad and hishealth and the impact that it
had on him Okay.
(14:00):
So I was five years old whenthey opened up this business.
They start my dad and mygrandfather went in on it
together, mostly because mygrandfather had just lost his
job.
He only had about five yearsleft to work.
This was a great opportunityfor him to finally open up this
business that he always wantedto do with my dad.
So, going into it, they knewthat he was only going to be
there for a short time, so, fastforward that time comes, where
(14:23):
my grandfather is transitioningout really more so, like the day
came.
Yeah, my dad was, cause he wasa sheet metal worker so he would
handle the guys outside and allthat stuff, but he was doing
some internal office work.
But in hindsight he'll tell youit wasn't enough right, because
what happened was when thatbaton was fully passed on.
(14:45):
He was running the business theway my grandfather was, not the
way he could handle, and as aresult of that and I share this
in this keynote speech, that Ido, but as a result of the
stress and the pressure.
One, he's a man.
I mean we have to call it whatit is right.
Men and women, we are raisedwith just different.
Man.
I mean we have to call it whatit is right Men and women, we
(15:06):
are raised with just different.
We're just raised different,right.
And so because not only is he aman, he has a wife, three kids,
I have two sisters.
He was so overwhelmed fromtrying to transition fully that
he planned on taking his lifeone day, and instead he drove
himself to the hospital.
And so that's how I learnedabout the toll that the work the
(15:31):
environment can have on a human, so that I would say that, and
then I would even fast forwardat this point in time.
Now I'm, I am actually like incollege and deciding my major.
I'll never forget my dad was 48and finally, things were
running on his own.
Him and my mom had their ownflow.
This was years later, and I'llnever forget saying to him dad,
(15:54):
you are going to have a heartattack.
You are so stressed out.
Something had shifted in thebusiness.
He was so stressed out.
Sure enough, he had a heartattack, he's retired and all the
things right.
But in hindsight, work can be,at the end of the day, the work
is the work.
The sheet metal work was thesheet metal work.
We're not going to change thatwork ever.
We're not going to changeconstruct.
(16:16):
We can't change the work, butwe can change the way that we
treat ourselves others.
So it's a long-winded way tosay that I do believe that those
are the things that really kindof nudged me along my path.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, it's obvious to me If you see your dad, of all
people you see every daysuffering and struggling and
fighting, and, just like yousaid, the sheep, like people,
ask me all the time what do youthink is the hardest trade?
None of them, it's all the samestuff.
Nobody's doing anything likemagical.
We connect things together andput them up in a certain order.
(16:52):
That's not the hard part.
Physically, there's some toll.
The part that, like, really isdifficult is the human part,
right, the way we treatourselves about the pressures
and stuff that are within thework and the way we treat others
with regard to the pressure,pressures and stresses of the
work.
And so you got to see thatimpacting your dad directly, so
(17:16):
much so that he was willing toend his life and he didn't.
So thank goodness for that.
But then you predicted a heartattack and he had a heart attack
which is like thisUnfortunately, this is not a
rare story, except that hedidn't like he drove himself to
the hospital.
That's kind of rare.
But the fact that the workitself, or the pressures of the
(17:38):
work, of the role andresponsibility that he had, made
life intolerable for him, thatis not an uncommon story,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Absolutely.
I mean one of the things when Ilook at the stuff that I taught
the stuff hello.
I could probably use betterlanguage than that.
But when I look at what I talkabout in regards to toxic work
environments and what isactually like research has told
us will exacerbate anxiety,depression, suicidal thoughts
and suicides.
One of them is long workinghours, those high demand there
(18:14):
is an actual number around howmany hours.
And so when I always look atthat one and I think, yeah, I
mean dad.
I would see him wake up at fouro'clock in the morning to go to
one of the job sites, get homeat 11.
I don't know what time he's, Idon't know when he slept.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Right, and that was every day for weeks and months
on end.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Until he had that crisis and realized this
business is running me.
I cannot run it this way.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, yeah.
So what would you say to thefolks that are saying, well,
yeah, but that's him running hisbusiness.
I'm an employee and I don'thave the autonomy to change my
situation.
What could they do?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
So I do believe I'm going to answer this with an ant
.
Okay, cause I want to say thisout loud boots on the ground
pains me until there's no end.
Boots on the ground in regardsto advocating like the employee
actually having to push upstreampains me until there is no
tomorrow, because this is thebusiness owner's responsibility
(19:15):
to set that period right.
Yeah, but as an employee, I dohave things that I can still
take control of.
I do have things that I canstill take control of, and those
to me are things like if I dohave an opportunity to leave and
find another job, look forsomething that has predictable
working hours.
(19:45):
So, in other words, when I thinkabout summers here in Atlanta
and I think about my husband whoruns a construction business
down here, we know summers,because of the way the weather
is, are going to be extremelylong or the days are going to be
extremely long, but we knowwhat the working hours are.
We're always going to startearly because of the heat right,
and end early day.
We know Friday is always goingto be a detailed job day because
everyone's exhausted, so it'sgoing to be an easy day because
we're also worried about likesafety and things like that.
(20:06):
So to me, even if you're insideyour current company that
you're working for, you can askthose things, you can push and
say, hey, I risk although I wantto use again saying, and even
though you can ask the boss thatthere may come with the
negative outcome of well, youcan get out of here, right, I
don't want to dismiss that thatsadly, sometimes the option is
(20:28):
we can't speak, but I do believethat there's an opportunity to
advocate for that, not just byyourself but with those around
you.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Sure, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
A boss does not want to see the full crew walk off
the job.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Not at all.
Well, and I agree with you onboth ends.
Yes, decision makers withinorganizations, they got to do
better and we can vote with ourfeet.
And I understand how scary thatis.
Well, maybe I don't, becauseI'm a little crazy.
Right?
If I don't like the way I'mbeing treated, I'm out.
Done, I'm moving to the nextone.
Done, I'm moving to the nextone.
(21:02):
And that's probably scary for alot of folks because they have
different responsibilities, toadd family and all these things.
But at least in theconstruction industry, you don't
have to tolerate peopleneglecting and abusing you.
There is plenty of work outthere, so much, and there is a
growing number of leaders thatare creating a situation that
(21:24):
better serves their people andthat the way to accelerate that
number is for those of us in badsituations to leave those
situations.
Yes, and I understand it'sdifficult, I understand it's
scary, but we do have a say Likewe do have a vote.
We really do.
But we do have a say like we dohave a vote, we really do.
(21:45):
And the business owners are theones that struggle or really
carry.
They're the ones that have themost leverage to make it better,
faster.
Yes, and so it's myunderstanding that you help
counsel, advise small businessowners on how to do it more
gooder for their people.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
More gooder.
I love that you said that.
So can I also just make onequick additional comment about
back to the employee, Because Ithink, because I love what you
said yes, there, there are somepeople that can't do it Right
and I respect that.
Fear is there.
I come from a money like ascarcity money mindset.
I'm not going to dismiss thefact that it is there.
(22:22):
It's scary.
But also to the pushback is youcan set your boundaries to.
That's another voiceopportunity to advocate for
yourself and the crew or whoeverof I'm.
This is what I was hired to do.
This is the box that I'mworking in, period Yep.
So anyways, I didn't want todismiss that.
But so yeah, absolutely yeah.
(22:43):
So all that to say yes, I do.
I.
My focus is the small businessowner, because I do believe two
things.
One, small businesses.
I mean that's what runs America.
As far as I'm concerned, theywe make up just about 50% of the
economy.
That's what runs.
Small business runs the economy.
And then two small businesseshave the opportunity to make the
(23:06):
workplaces great.
The red tape isn't there andyou don't need money to do these
things.
It is just teeny, tinypractices.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
No cost.
So let's talk more about that.
It doesn't cost money.
So two simple examples maybenot simple, but two practical
examples of things that smallbusiness owner can do that
aren't going to cost them anymoney but will transform their
(23:37):
culture and provide a betterenvironment for their people.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
One get boots on the ground with your people.
I want to see that businessowner working side by side with
those guys at some point on ajob that right there.
If you want to build trust andrespect, there is nothing better
than seeing the boss boots onthe ground, rolling up the
sleeve doing the dirty work.
I watched it work for my dad.
(24:02):
I see it work for my husband.
It is a no brainer.
Get in the throes with yourguys or your gals, whoever.
One easy peasy.
The other thing that does is itfosters.
The biggest thing that I push isthe employee voice.
Ask people, they have theanswers.
So me boss.
(24:23):
I think I know what my companyneeds and my people need.
You have no idea they do.
They do, so ask them.
I'm actually going to throw ina third.
But all that to say you cannotcreate better unless your boot's
on the ground at some pointwith your employees, that you're
(24:44):
talking to them and asking fortheir voice and for the solution
, because then they are going tobe bought in because they
helped.
Right, they are going to befull throttle.
And then the third one and thisis going to sound so silly, but
I cannot say this loud enough.
Be kind, say good morning, besafe.
(25:09):
Thank you for your hard worktoday.
Wow, that was nothing.
That's a game changer.
People want to be seen andheard and feel as though that
could change someone's life.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Oh, I love it and I agree 100%.
That's kind of what I help,that kind of it's an element of
what I do in helping the clientsthat I serve is the magic is
when you go and spend time maybenot observing and even doing
the work that the people do.
(25:41):
You, as a leader, build empathyfor the work and the worker,
because now you understand howmuch it actually sucks, yes, and
then you're compelled to makeit better.
Like this sucks Now and, likeyou said, we're sweating
together, we're kind of grimingit up together.
(26:05):
We now have a foundation fortrust and dialogue, just by
proximity, just by being in thesame place, together, focused on
the same objective.
And, like you said, they arethe ones who've been
experiencing the damn pain ofthe work.
So they have the ones who'vebeen experiencing the damn pain
of the work.
So they have the ideas.
You, as the leader, you havethe influence and authority to
(26:28):
make it better.
You need them to inform you onwhat exactly precisely to do to
make it better and then, oncethat flywheel gets going, it's
magic.
So, and if you can't do that,try to be kind.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yes, yes, just say hello and good morning.
And how was your thank you?
Thank you for sweating all day.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, exactly Know their name.
Thank you, demonstrate someappreciation.
I've been banging the drum onthis because I got to see it.
Where was I?
Where's Des Moines, iowa?
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Iowa right, I was in Iowa.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, and it was a big old, giant data center and
we had, I don't know, somewherelike 800 or 900 electricians on
it, a lot of them from out ofstate traveling into work.
There was another data centerby a competing general
contractor and a competing ownercoming up down the road.
They offered a stipend to theelectricians that were on our
project to go over there acouple hundred bucks a week for
(27:31):
every electrician that would goover there.
And we were like, oh my God,everybody's going to leave,
we're going to lose ourelectricians.
About 15, 20% of them went andthey weren't like the cream of
the crop 15 or 20%, it was likethe pains in the butt, the prima
donna, those.
And so I got to ask the rest ofthem why didn't y'all?
(27:52):
That's 200 bucks a week, that'sa year, that's 10 grand.
Why did you stay?
And oh no, we've worked on withthat contractor, we know how
they're going to treat us.
It is not worth the $200.
Over here We've got clean,paved parking, we've got a place
to eat lunch, things areorganized, we can get work like.
(28:14):
It is not worth the 200 bucks.
And so, like my take, this wasyears.
It was, I don't know, maybefour or five years ago.
But my take was oh my goodness,people are giving passing on
dollars, which still doesn'tmake sense to me.
It just tells you how greedy Iam to work in better conditions.
And so the leaders, thedecision makers that figure out
(28:38):
how to systematicallydemonstrate appreciation for the
people that they haveconnection or contact with,
they're going to win this game.
Am I lying?
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Oh my gosh, you're speaking 100%.
It's a no-brainer and we haveresearch that backs it up.
People are not going to goacross the street for an extra
buck in these really hard jobsif they know that they have it
really good where they are.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Yes, yes, just being treated like a human?
Yes.
So I was perusing your websiteand I saw that it feels like
maybe you've had people havemade references to you being
from, or in the HR world, andthere you have a clear
(29:28):
delineation between HR andorganizational health.
Did I interpret that correctly?
Speaker 1 (29:33):
And I feel very strongly about making sure that
is understood.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Oh, so let's talk about it please.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Understood.
Oh, so let's talk about itplease.
Yeah, so this is no insult tothose individuals that have
human resource jobs.
I have friends that like that'swhat their job is, Yay, it's
the department and what thedepartment stands for.
That I do believe we have setup for failure.
(30:01):
That I do believe we have setup for failure.
We are asking them to do thisorganizational change work,
which we have said.
We don't want to spend anyextra money have HR do it is for
the company, that is who theyare for.
Again, we have set up people forfailure in this department if
(30:21):
we are asking them to take thiswork.
In addition to that, with alldue respect, they also don't
have the training.
They don't understand thebehavior change.
I understand that there's someclasses and things like that,
that a lot of happens within thehuman resource world, but there
is some science behind some ofthis in regards to human, in
(30:44):
regards to the organization, andso that's the other part of me
that's a little protective,right To say let's bring in the
experts to do the work.
Would HR be at the table?
100%, Every department needs tobe at the table for this work,
but you have to have somebodyleading the charge or else
(31:05):
nothing happens.
And again, I believe if we setHR up to lead the charge, we're
really setting ourselves up forfailure because of what the
department stands for.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah, yes, yeah, oh, I love it.
So I'm not the only one I agreeon several points.
I, I love it.
So I'm not the only one I agreeon several points.
For a long time I misunderstoodHR to be an advocate for me as
the employee, because some HRprofessionals actually are and
they manage.
(31:38):
They have learning managementsystems under their purview,
they've got recruiting undertheir purview, they've got
talent management and protectingthe company from liability,
which is their core, the corefunction of the human resource
element, which too many of usaren't aware of.
I know a lot of people that getreally irritated with their HR
(32:01):
department.
It's like they don't want tochange.
That means they're doing theirjob right.
Their job is to maintain Ishouldn't say their.
The HR function serves toprotect the business.
It serves to maintain thestatus quo and guard the
business against liability.
That's the HR function.
Human beings that fall in thatdepartment often will take on
(32:24):
extra responsibility and willsay tightwad, business owners
try to make hr do all the otherstuff that's too fluffy and
squishy and they set them up forfailure, just just like you
said.
Now I can say hey, dr Colleensaid it ain't just me, jesse
(32:45):
smack talking plumber.
Dr Colleen said too.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
But you said it, perfect.
I mean there are some amazingpeople in that function.
That again friends of mine andI know they want to do right by
their people but they can't.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Right Because they have this certain level of or
directive right the directive,their responsibility, their core
function is this, and so isthat what the idea of chief
culture officer comes from.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah, 100%.
So there are some companies outthere that have started to
bring on chief well-beingofficers.
The word well-being, just, wecan save that for a whole nother
conversation because it getssuch a negative connotation.
And so, at the end of the day,yes, we are trying to enhance
(33:37):
the well-being of theorganization and the people, but
the only way we can do that isthrough the culture, and again,
we also need someone to lead thecharge.
Any party that you ever wantedto plan, it never happened,
unless there was one person thatwas always bringing the circus
together, right?
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
So that's so long-winded to say yes, that's
what that is.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Good.
So when we're thinking, let'sjust say I've seen the error of
my ways or one of the L&M familymembers out there running their
business, ok, this damn peoplething is important.
(34:24):
What should they look for in?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
a culture officer or somebody to lead the charge of
growing, maintaining,stabilizing all the work that
goes into the culture of acompany.
So they do have to have someform of behavioral health
training, and that is not just.
I took a class.
I studied overarching healthand wellbeing and promotion all
the things that go under it.
So they do have to have someform of training.
(34:46):
In addition to againunderstanding how the
organization works, you have toalso have a business brain at
the table and that is notnecessarily like to me.
Sometimes I do believe that'sinnate.
Like I consider myself anextreme business person, that's
just something that I learnedfrom being the product of
business owners.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yeah, do you know it.
So why is that important tohave with that business brain?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Because of the fact that this culture, work is, it's
going to thread itself throughevery single aspect of the
working business and it'sbusiness.
So we're going to have someform of metrics right.
Some use the word KPI, whateverfancy word you want.
There has to be some way tomeasure it, and so if you don't
(35:35):
understand that from just ageneral business sense, then I
just feel like you're only therefor kind of like a one track of
I want to do this and I want todo that.
I get it, but there is still abusiness mind that has to figure
out.
Okay, this priority can't happenright now because of X, we will
table that, we won't throw itaway, but we have to do Y.
(35:57):
So even if we have an order wewant to follow, sometimes we
have to go out of order becausethe business tells us we have to
do why.
So, even if we have an order wewant to follow, sometimes we
have to go out of order becausethe business tells us we have to
.
So at the end of the day,business still has to run right.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
That was a hard lesson I had tolearn and I don't know why I
still haven't figured outexactly why because I'm very
production focused, right mybrain automatic, like I'm
calculating how long does ittake to do something and how can
we do that better, faster.
But I've always I shouldn't sayalways in the two big jobs I've
(36:30):
had like real jobs.
Eventually I migrated towardsthe people department, right
that, the organizational health,learning and development, hr.
For some reason I could jivewith those folks.
Now, early on I wanted to dostuff because I knew or believed
(36:52):
and felt like it would bebetter, but I could not make a
case because I didn't understandhow to contextualize it into
business terms.
And then I saw my friends and,in case y'all don't know, l&m
family member, you want to bewith some wild, crazy people
when it's time to get loose HRprofessionals, you better be
(37:18):
ready because they are.
There's something else.
Anyways, that's off script.
I saw so many of my friends inthe people department or people
centered roles, I guess, likejust be so frustrated and
irritated because they would getrejected outright, their ideas
would get minimized anddisregarded.
(37:42):
And it was for the same reasonbecause they couldn't
contextualize it in businessterms, meaning, what's the cost,
how long is it going to takefor us to make some kind of
obvious impact on performance,on the business, on production
or whatever?
Like just get in the box somekind of idea of what the end
result should look like and itwas like well, but it's the
(38:03):
right thing to do, we know it.
Okay, fine.
And so they didn't have muchground to stand on.
They lost a lot of credibilitybecause they couldn't make
themselves a valued businesspartner at the table.
They had a lot of ideas, theyhad a lot of opinions.
They had a lot of opinions.
And so what are some thingsthese people, centered
(38:24):
individuals can do so that theycan understand how to translate
their ideas, so that thedecision makers will be
supportive of it and say, yeahyou use the word business
partner.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
You have to understand the partnership right
With every business unit.
So if you have this grand idea,cool, go take it to the sales
department, find out whatthey're measuring, what their
pain points are, what ask themto partner with you to help you
be able to put it in differentterms.
Okay, this is how it's going toimpact sales.
(39:02):
Okay, now let's go toproduction.
All right, what are your painpoints?
What are your right Like?
They have the answers.
It all goes back to theemployee voice or the department
voice.
They're the partner, like.
They're the ones that are goingto help you create the business
case, and you also are going toneed their buy-in, so you may
as well start early and ask themright.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
That is an easy win right there.
I think it's a no-brainer.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, it is a no-brainer when it's your
default mode, but for a lot ofpeople it's not right.
I have my great idea, I want tobring it to the table.
My title says director ofwhatever and nobody's buying
into my idea because it's onlymy idea.
I haven't socialized the ideaat all, and if I were to
socialize the idea I could getreally valuable intel to weave
(39:54):
into my pitch and I'll alreadyhave some advocacy because
people know that I'm tinkeringaround with this thing.
And so it's just like you saidearlier to the business owner go
talk to the damn people.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
They hold the key to the castle of success, literally
.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Oh, it's so simple.
It's just be cool, right, behuman, go talk to people, listen
to them.
I know, for me, one of thestruggles I've had is like
demoting my objectivetemporarily so that I can really
understand your objective.
(40:34):
That helped me make a lot ofprogress in terms of making
recommendations that were goingto require a significant dollar
investment.
They were going to requiresignificant time of executives
within the BU or theorganization to do the thing,
but because I spent a lot oftime talking and learning and
(40:55):
understanding and was able tocraft the message and said this
is the commitment and the costand this is the targeted outcome
.
And this is the commitment andthe cost and this is the
targeted outcome and this is howit relates.
I didn't know that upfront andI couldn't Google it.
I had to talk to the people,right?
Like again, talk to the people.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
But I think we can't dismiss.
We're also human and ego isalways going to come to play
right, and that's cool.
Feel it and then put it on theshelf.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
No ego amigo because it's not going to get you far,
but that's cool, feel it.
And then put it on the shelf.
No, ego, amigo, because it'snot going to get you far, but
(41:41):
that's okay for me to come up toyou and say, dr Colleen, I got
this initiative, I want toaccomplish this thing.
This is why I'm talking to youand put that on the shelf.
Help me understand what yourexperience is on this matter,
because I'm not going tomanipulate or convince or strong
arm you into agreeing with me.
(42:02):
I told you what my objective is.
Put it on the shelf.
Help me understand what yourexperience is from this
particular set of circumstances,because we want to do something
differently about it.
And in that conversation youget to say, jesse, you're
barking up the wrong tree.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
It's not a problem for me, darn it, let me go find
somebody else, right, but Ithink you said the most
important question or phrase.
Help me understand thatimmediately.
That's gold when you set thatup for it.
It's not a.
I want to do this.
Help me understand.
(42:37):
Do you have the same challenge?
If yes, or maybe you see it,whatever the case may be, that
is the gold question.
Slash statement.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Oh, okay, folks, you already heard.
Write it down.
Hit the rewind button.
Does it even qualify as arewind button?
Speaker 1 (42:52):
I think we could say it qualifies.
I think it's got to think.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Write it down.
There's the secret code.
Okay, so, phd, you've run 300million marathons.
That's a lot of miles, like forreal, and because I know
running a 26.2 mile race,there's hundreds of miles that
go into the train.
(43:18):
Well, it may not be miserable,but it's work.
Got your PhD, that's no simpletask.
You're running your ownbusiness now and public speaking
.
I'm going to say, or ask is thepublic speaking thing, keynote
speaking, the primary objective?
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Yeah, it is.
It has become my primaryobjective.
I had to take a consult andeducate more from a state, and
so I want to see the workplacebe better than it has been for
me.
I just want to see it be better.
People do love going to work.
There's community there.
We should want to go to work,but a lot of people don't right.
(44:24):
So all that, my goal is toimpact more and I believe that's
possible from stage and ifsomebody wants to work with me
after that, I mean I tee up myframework and all that good
stuff that we'll do.
And if we were to go deeperfrom a client relationship but
there's enough information Ifeel like in the presentations
(44:45):
that somebody could at leastwalk away with something.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Oh, I love that, Okay .
So how long did it take you tosay you know what?
The vehicle to help me achievethe outcome I want is public
speaking.
How long did it take you to seekind of like a foggy
representation of that?
Maybe there's something inpublic speaking to.
This is the damn thing I'mgonna do so.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
So one of the things I didn't share is so I left
corporate in in April of 2023 soit's been over a year and a
half when I said I'm done, Iwant to make a bigger impact
Right.
And so I always spoke.
I was always at the table forsales meetings because, at the
(45:30):
end of the day, it's aneducational conversation, right,
like sales is.
If you're doing it well, it'snot sales, right?
So sign me up to yap at a salesmeeting, sign me up to yap at a
.
And I'm yapping because I getto educate.
I'm an educator at heart.
That's who I am, and so Ialways did that in my corporate
life and loved it.
(45:50):
I mean, it fueled my fire.
And so when I left and said,okay, I'm going to go out on my
own, I want to focus on smallbusiness I felt like I had to.
What I learned growing up workyou have to do it this way.
There's this, right.
And so I felt, okay, I've gotto go straight into consulting,
thinking that, in addition toconsulting, I'll try to get in
(46:13):
front of more associations,conferences, things like that,
and I finally the resistancethat I was just feeling in
myself of this doesn't feel good.
I didn't feel any differentthan when I left the company
that I walked away from.
It's because I'm not being trueto myself.
I had to have a self-awarenesscheck.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Okay, yes.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Out loud.
I'm like I'm not being true tome, shame on me.
So that so it was about midyear this year that I said I've
got to flip this.
I've got to flip it to whatexcites me, and that's what
excites me.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
Oh my goodness, I love that.
You pointed out that there wasan internal friction that you
knew like something's wrong.
I know what's wrong.
It's my focus, oh my God.
I know what's wrong.
(47:08):
It's my focus, oh my God.
Because I know on my path andmany of the L&M family members
out there, we have that.
We have that friction and wetry to suppress it and we
reinforce it because otherpeople think we're already crazy
, doing crazy things.
What's wrong with you leavingthat corporate job?
What the hell are you doing?
You had it like all of that,but your heart, your soul, is
telling you, man, something likethis, ain't it?
(47:28):
You got to do somethingdifferently, and for me, that
falls in the realm of becomingthe promise you are intended to
be.
I feel believe that we all area promise to be fulfilled, and
discovering or surrendering towhat that is is the thing.
And I feel like what youdescribed is articulating what
(47:52):
that surrender feels like.
And now I'm going to do this.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, I love that.
Yes, that's exactly it.
You summarized it perfectly.
You put it in words I didn'teven know existed.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Okay.
So you said I'm going to dopublic speaking and did you like
?
Wake up the next day and therewere tons of people knocking on
your door, emails of hey, comedo my keynote Hell, no.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Hell, no, oh, was there work involved?
Back to our original convo.
Guess who gets stages?
The person that's willing topitch and put in the time and
effort.
It's the way it works.
You have to be willing to dothe work, so that's it.
So I'm in the throes of thework, which is making me fine
(48:39):
tune my message and it'sallowing me to learn and stretch
and be really uncomfortable inall the things.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Okay.
So what have you learned aboutyourself?
A couple of lessons sincetaking on and being on, because
I know you were just on stage atthe Speak she conference, and
I'm probably not the only one.
What have you discovered aboutyourself after actually doing it
?
Speaker 1 (49:03):
So this is a fun question.
So I would say that itconfirmed that fire.
When I say it lights me up, amI nervous?
Am I uncomfortable?
Hell yeah, but I'm so freakingexcited from the energy that
comes from it.
So I would say that the otherinteresting thing that I've
(49:25):
learned is how much I do lovestorytelling and sharing and the
vulnerability, but also that Ihave more opportunity to be even
more vulnerable in a good way,in a way that I know right is
going to make a greater impact.
But I'm also still a littlenervous myself, because then
(49:47):
you're like it's all out there,oh yeah.
And then this one is so thisother one I think I may have
mentioned this when we were inSavannah together.
I am, when I speak, I am almostalways scripted and I'm using
air quotes to say that I havepracticed so much that it is
going to come out in extremelyconversational way.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Which means that I have a big opportunity that I
need to learn how to lean intothe unknown when something
doesn't go right.
So the so I signed up for animprov class to try to start, so
I did improv for 10 weeks.
So that was something that Ireally needed to learn more of.
I know my stuff, like we allknow our stuff.
(50:31):
It's the imposter syndrome thatcomes behind us and makes us
feel less than or whatever.
But I'm like, no, I need tostrengthen that muscle.
So I leaned into that one andthen that one is going to be so
silly.
But when I was at that Speakshe event on Sunday, the whole
thing was I wasn't allowed tomove from behind the standing
(50:52):
microphone and I realized thatis not my jam, I need to use the
stage.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
Yes, oh, but that's an.
I need to use the stage.
Yes, oh, that's it, but that'san important thing to know.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Yeah, and you don't know that until you do it, yeah,
and then I'll just probablythrow out one more.
I mean again, I think thefeedback that I've been getting
from what I talk about that'sthe whole reason I'm up there is
that you spoke to me.
Thank you so much.
I wish every CEO could hear youor work with you, or it's that,
(51:22):
it's knowing that I touchedwhat I wanted to touch.
Even if they can't go back totheir workplace and do it, at
least it hits something withinthem, and that's the whole point
, that's the impact part.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Right Cause they know they're not alone anymore.
Impact part Right Cause theyknow they're not alone anymore,
the message you give resonateswith them.
Okay, I'm not some crazy psycho.
Yes, at least there's anotherone.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
If I am, there's a tribe.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Oh, my God, oh, I love it.
So, especially the improv.
I believe it or not, I took animprov class, also sing things,
and it was 10 weeks.
We ended it, capped it off withan onstage presentation with an
audience Did you do the samething Same thing and I got to
make a confession.
But you can't tell anybody.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
No one's listening.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
Right, right, nobody's listening.
So I was.
I really expected to be likethe all-star of the group
Surprise and what I found was ittook about.
We're probably in the fourth orfifth week before I stopped
saying no.
I wasn't saying the word no,but my reaction or response to
(52:37):
the exercises and things that wedid was no, yes, we need to be
yes, and and, for whateverreason, I couldn't yes and I
could only no and I woulddisrupt the flow of the groove
that was happening and it wasdifficult, it was challenging,
and I'm like why do I suck atthis so bad?
(52:57):
Because I'm an easygoing, fun,crazy guy.
That's the mask.
That was the mask.
I didn't know how to let thingsbe and just go with the flow.
And what do you think aboutthat?
Speaker 1 (53:11):
So exactly what was coming up for me with that was
two things.
One, set your team up forsuccess.
Now I finally get the fulltrans, not transition, the full
dotted line or straight linethat so many people are trying
to bring improv to the workplace, because it's literally about
setting up for success, notshutting it down, which is right
(53:33):
, like what was happening.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
Yes, yes, yes.
So it's like being able for meno-transcript with the person
(54:02):
I'm dancing with Not everybody,because I'm kind of again like I
like attention a little toomuch when I'm dancing, I start
watching people to see ifthey're watching me, okay, and
the dance is not as good as if Iwas a hundred percent focused
on my partner.
And so there's a similar thingwhat you talked about in the
workplace as a manager, a personwith responsibility within the
(54:24):
organization, I need to be ableto dance with what's coming,
respond to the pressure, respondto the tempo and adjust
proportionately, or ratherrespond proportionately as
opposed to what we typicallywill do, because we're stressed
and overreact and shut downcreativity, disconnect people
from their agency, and so beingable to just take what's coming
(54:48):
and flow with it, which is theimprov thing, is a monster game
changer.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Yes, oh my gosh.
Yes, I love how you alsoequated that to dancing, because
it's so true.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
Yeah, oh, oh, okay.
So back to Bob, we're gettinginto improv, which is awesome
Public speaking thing.
You said you're doing the work,not so much on getting clear on
what your message is andpresentation and flow of the
delivery.
Getting on stage, what shouldpeople do?
Speaker 1 (55:25):
Getting on stage.
What should people do that youwish you had the time to do 10
times more of?
This is a pitching business.
So you have, literally everysingle day it is a pitch
Reaching out to associations.
That's a big one in regards tolike, hey, do you have an
(55:46):
opportunity for me to write foryour trade magazine, or whatever
the case may be.
So I would answer it that waythose two things.
I know that I'm a leader in myindustry, but no one else does
Right, and so I have to let themknow.
And so it's every single daypitching.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
Nice, nice, and it's working so far.
Speaker 1 (56:02):
It is.
If anything, it's for all theno's I get.
At least I have refined mymessage and that's it.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
Dr Colleen, I think that's an understated thing, and
not just in public speaking.
But like anything, if youstruggle with it, like the fear
of being rejected, I understandthat.
I think that's a human thingthat we all understand.
But if you have a dream thatyou want to bring to life, I
hope that you can make it happenon your first try.
(56:29):
I also know I don't know how tomake that happen except for to
try a bunch of times, and so now, running my business and doing
the crazy things that I do, nowI understand.
Okay, I have this idea that Ineed to pitch, and these first
10 to 20 pitches are just sothat I can get better about my
(56:51):
pitch.
Speaker 1 (56:52):
Yes, so you can get the feedback.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
I'm not going to get better without those reps, and
then when I get good at it, thenI get the yeses.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (57:02):
Oh, 100%.
The majority of life is a noRight.
There's only a few yeses thatcome in life.
Speaker 2 (57:11):
The majority of life is a no.
That's a t-shirt, Dr Colleen.
The majority of life is a no.
Damn, there's some reality foryou.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
It's just.
I wish it was more sunshine androses.
Right, but life is really hard.
It's really freaking hard, butwe still, we can do hard things.
Speaker 2 (57:29):
Oh, a hundred percent .
Oh, my goodness, this has beena great conversation, so I'm
going to bring you around ThirdBay sliding into home.
Okay, let's do it Are you readyfor the big grand finale
question?
I'm ready, Okay.
So it's clear to me and folksout there.
If you didn't get it, maybe youjust need to go listen to the
whole episode again.
But it is clear to me that yougive a damn about people.
(57:53):
You care about the humanexperience in the workplace.
You've made a gigantic shift inyour career so that you can
touch and impact as many livesas you possibly can, and so
that's what makes me excitedabout your answer to this
question.
So the question is this what isthe promise you are intended to
(58:14):
be?
Speaker 1 (58:16):
The promise I am intended to be Now.
Let me just ask you this is nota trick question for me to
remember what you said when yousummarized, not at all Okay.
So the promise that I intend tobe is I.
Right now there is a count forthe number of suicides that are
related to the workplaceenvironment.
It is a messy way to count.
(58:37):
Life is messy, Metrics aremessy.
There is no perfect metricright.
I would argue that this numberthat I'll share is low, but I
think there's a lot of reasonswhy.
Again, measurement, sadly it'sall messy, but in my opinion,
one suicide that is related towork environments is too many.
So the number count as of 2021,because it's always behind is
(59:02):
269.
And so my whole goal in life,before I leave this world, is to
I want to see that go to zero.
There should be nothing, from asuicide standpoint, that is
associated to the workplaceperiod Period.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (59:22):
Wow, amazing.
So L&M family members out therewant to support you in that.
What's the best way for them tohelp support that dream, that
promise that you just shared?
Speaker 1 (59:34):
If there is an association that they're
connected to, that they think Ihave an amazing message that is
around this work that we need todo in the workplace.
If they're connected to anassociation and they're looking
for a speaker, someone to justhelp them understand what it is
that we need to do, I'm theirperson.
(59:55):
Reach out.
They can find me on LinkedIn.
I have my website, which is myname, colleen Seringer, so
that's my ask If there's anybodythat you think you want to
deliver this message to reachout, I have a 10 minute clip
that I can share.
That's a nice summary of whatit sounds like on stage and,
yeah, that's how I would answerthat.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Beautiful.
We'll make sure we have thoselinks in the show notes so that
folks can help you, and I loveit for a lot of different
reasons and I'm grateful thatyou were generous with your time
today.
Did you have fun?
Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Oh my gosh, are you kidding me?
I feel like we could talk foranother hour.
This is so fun.
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