February 12, 2025 • 42 mins
Imagine discovering that the very aspects of your personality you've been told to suppress could actually be your greatest strength. Nate Rogers, founder of Four Eyes Facilitation, joins us to unpack his journey of embracing empathy as a leadership tool. Through his candid insights, Nate challenges the societal norms that often pressure men to mask their emotions and shares how authenticity and empathy can transform team dynamics and leadership effectiveness. This episode isn't just about listening; it's about understanding the unspoken and recognizing the power of being true to oneself.
We've all heard that introspection is key, but what does it actually look like in practice? This episode gives a special nod to Renee Duron, who witnessed firsthand the power of effective planning in Jesse's time management workshop. From leading a transformation team at Ohio Health to embarking on a reflective sabbatical, our discussion underscores the importance of knowing one's intrinsic strengths beyond job titles. The conversation navigates the balance between stepping back to let others shine and the often intangible impact a coach can have on a team's success.
Get ready to rethink everything you know about leadership, feedback, and systems-building. We explore the parallels between the fast-paced precision of a pit crew and everyday business processes, revealing how optimizing systems can unlock hidden potential. Nate Rogers sheds light on how his organization, Four Eyes Facilitation, helps teams achieve clarity and joy through strategic visioning. By the end of this episode, you'll gain insights into the energy dynamics of public speaking and the invaluable role of personalized strategies for individuals with unique traits, leaving you inspired to embrace both your strengths and challenges.
Connect with Nate at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nate-j-rogers/
https://www.foureyesfacilitation.com/
Make yourself a priority and get more done:
https://www.depthbuilder.com/do-the-damn-thing
Download a PDF copy of Becoming the Promise You are Intended to Be
https://www.depthbuilder.com/books
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think it costs like hundreds of millions, a few
hundred million dollars to build.
Now what's crazy is we knowwhat that supercomputer does
because we humans put thesoftware on.
We don't know our software.
Validation from others is adrug.
Like you get it and you're likeyes, I feel great.
And then 30 seconds later thedrug wears off and you're like
(00:21):
somebody tell me I'm amazingagain.
I watch a few things aboutother people who succeed in
business with ADHD, which I have, and they're like this is how I
get through task X.
And it's often something thatyou'd never get coached to do in
typical leadership training.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
What is going on L&M family.
We're going to have a superawesome conversation.
It's like a part two to aconversation that you're not
going to get to hear.
But Mr Nate Rogers and I kickedthis off.
I don't know, it's probablybeen a month or so ago.
I was fortunate enough thatMegan introduced us and made the
connection.
We had a conversation.
I was like bro, we need to getyou on the podcast.
(01:06):
He's got tons of energy, tons ofinsight.
He is the founder of Four EyesFacilitation, which I love the
name.
He's got massive, massiveexperience in retail and
healthcare at the executivelevel, and I think what you're
going to learn is we have thesame I'll just call it vice in
(01:29):
terms of experimenting, learning, growing and serving others,
and so y'all are going to get toknow Mr Nate here in a second.
If this is your first time here, I'm Jesse, your selfish
servant, and this is theLearnings and Mystics podcast,
where you get to see how realpeople just like you are sharing
(01:51):
their gifts and talents toleave this world better than
they found it, and we are aboutto learn how Mr Nate is going to
do that right now.
Mr Nate, how are you, my man?
I'm good, jesse, thanks so muchfor having me, yeah likewise,
I'm good, jesse.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, likewise.
So I got a simple question youready, yep?
What is empathetic facilitation?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Oh, that's a simple question.
It's a little trickier toanswer, but I'll hit it up.
So actually, when I was a kid,I called this ability called
empathy, sensitivity, and sostuff happened on the playground
and I'd freak out.
My buddies would say, likedon't be so sensitive.
And eventually, especially as Iprogressed through my career, I
learned that it was actually myEQ, or my ability to empathize
(02:34):
with others, and when you readit in the dictionary you're like
, oh so this dude can feel otherpeople's feelings and so he's
in tune with them.
Sweet Like it sounds, like we'reall going to go out in the
woods and have granola and havea nice time.
But when it comes to thebusiness world and facilitation,
what it actually means is inthe room.
When I'm helping a group ofleaders be their best, I'm
reading them.
(02:54):
Just because of some of mynatural talents, I'm seeing that
little tick in somebody's facethat says I'm not sure I agree
with what that other individualjust said, and so it helps me.
I'm not sure I agree with whatthat other individual just said,
and so it helps me as I'mhelping those leaders know when
it's time to pause to say I needyou to respond, charlie, to
Sally, because she just hadsomething to share and I watched
(03:17):
your face.
There's something going on.
Sometimes it's tone of voice,sometimes it's body language,
and it's all learnable For me, Iguess.
I was fortunate enough to bethat sensitive kid and so it's a
little ingrained in how Ioperate.
In a nutshell, it's just thepractice of facilitating people
to do more than they ever couldbefore by paying attention to
how they're feeling.
Yes, like all superpowers, whenI was a kid I thought it was a
(03:38):
super weakness.
It's different in differentcultures, right, but at least
when I was younger, we werestill in the era of hiding your
emotions and being more on themacho side, especially as a male
.
So, being that kid that blushedeasily or, in certain
circumstances, would even cry,culturally or socially, it felt
like a weakness, and peoplewould even explicitly say that
(03:58):
to me, right, and so I worked alot to suppress it.
So not to interrupt you, butyeah, it's definitely super
strength, but didn't know it fora long, long time.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
For my fellow empaths .
You know exactly how exhaustingthis is, because people look at
you sideways so you try to maskit and naturally I'm like man.
I got to ask Nate about thisthing, really wanted to know how
his energy is impacted, andthis is what he responded.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Exhausting, dude.
I mean, it just takes a lot ofenergy to not be you and I feel
like we've all been there before, right, and so it's tiring,
it's disheartening when youshape yourself more than you
should in order to respond tothe world around you and makes
you wonder like, okay, thesepeople who are close to me, are
(04:46):
they really close to me?
Me or the version of me I'vechose to put out because I think
that's what others want to seeand frankly, especially as I get
older, I think we all do that.
I think I spent a lot of timewhen I was younger thinking I
was the only one, but that'sjust the conversation none of us
have with each other, right?
It's like there's the versionof me I put out there and I
think anyone could say a similarstory.
(05:09):
They just may have differentcharacteristics that they're
either shaping or molding to fitin differently.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Different characteristics that really
really stood out to me.
It made me curious if he knewthat this empathy thing was a
strength and that it would leadto the life he's living today.
So let's see what he says.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Throughout my career, at like every step where most
folks would say, okay, that'sprogress or you know, a step
towards or a step into success,I've relied honestly on those
around me to tell me A that I'mdoing well, instead of it just
coming from me like saying, oh,I know, I'm crushing it right
now.
But then I think also I haven'talways known why I've been
(05:53):
successful.
And it's interesting, I thinkthe more leadership groups I
become a part of and the morebusinesses I become exposed to I
think that's a common trait wetend to be better at knowing
when we weren't successful andwe pick that apart and we know
why.
But when you are finallysitting on top of the mountain,
not everyone, and certainly notmyself, can say I know exactly
(06:15):
why I got here.
I think there's certainpersonality types that are very
linear thinkers and they knowthe path and they're like yeah,
I got on top of the mountainbecause I chose to deprive
myself of oxygen the same way itwas going to be when I was on
top of the mountain by doing X,y, z and carrying rocks on my
back through the park.
But that's not most of us.
Most of us are sort of likewell, there's a million
(06:37):
variables going on around me andsomehow right now I'm
successful, and so I had no ideauntil, honestly, very recently
probably the last four or fiveyears I've been really unpacking
it and finally understandingmore.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Are you wondering the same thing?
I'm wondering.
I was thinking like, okay, sowhen exactly did you have the
aha moment about this magicability?
And of course I asked that's agood question.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
I don't know that it was necessarily a single aha,
but it was right around.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
But before that we're going to do the L&M family
member shout out, and this onegoes to Renee.
Renee Duron says I'm so glad Isigned up for Jesse's do the
damn thing time managementworkshop.
It completely shifted how I'mso glad I signed up for Jesse's
Do the Damn Thing timemanagement workshop.
It completely shifted how I'mgoing to handle my time and
ideas moving forward.
One of the biggest takeawaysfor me was learning the art of
(07:36):
monthly and quarterly planning,specifically to manage my
squirrels.
Rene, thank you.
And Rene gets an extra, extrashout out because he's also the
editor of the L&M podcast and soI'm going to make him blush a
little bit.
But he and 14 other people hungout on the time management
workshop.
I was worried that it was goingto kind of be roll your eye,
(07:58):
boring type stuff, but a lot ofpeople got a lot of value out of
it and we're going to be doingthem again in the future.
And folks out there, you'relistening.
You got to know I love thecomments, I love the shares, I
love the stars, the thumbs up,the thumbs down.
Please hit me up with yourcomments so that I can celebrate
you in the future.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
When I pivoted into a role leading a transformation
team at Ohio Health, which is apretty large 30,000 employee
healthcare system in CentralOhio, and it was probably the
most purposeful time where I wastrying to get others to
innovate and stepping backmyself.
So I was more creating theproblems to solve and the
(08:38):
environment for success andcoaching people.
But I had to pull away.
Usually until that point I wassuccessful a lot, I felt like
because I was bringing a freshperspective or the thinking or
the work product I created.
I've been leading people for 10, 15 years before that, but this
was the time where I really gotout of the work and into
(09:02):
helping others thrive in themost meaningful way I ever had
and that made me start to say,well, all right, if I'm going to
help somebody else.
Or in this case, it was like Ihad six directors reporting to
me that ran these transformationprojects.
I was like when we get thosesix directors to thrive doing
the thing that the business hasfound valuable from me, I need
(09:22):
to learn what the heck it isthat works and doesn't work
right.
I'm sure a lot of people who'vehad one moment or another where
they've been successful someonesaid to them.
Man, it'd be great if we justhad a few more Jessys here.
And so this was like literalmoment of Nate.
Go help us have six more Natesand innovate and transform the
(09:43):
way we deliver care to ourpatients.
It's like sweet, that soundsawesome.
Who the hell is Nate?
You know what I mean?
It's like those outside observeyou all the time and you're
busy watching them and observingthem.
So I think that was probablythe biggest trigger, and then
it's been kind of progressivesince then, because I mean, when
you talked about peeling theonion, it's like once you start
picking, it's hard to stop.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
I know that introspection is like super,
ultra, ultimate, valuable, and Ialso know guiding teams
effectively takes massiveintrospection Like for me as an
individual and Nate's like noscrub.
He's got it going on, so Iwanted to really get a sense of
how he goes about looking inwardand what value he gets out of
(10:27):
that.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Well, yeah, I think that's right, and I think
helping coach people through andobserve them at work doing the
things that historically I'ddone well, frankly, it was the
most fantastic experiment Icould have ever asked for.
Right, because it was like Igot to watch these folks try the
systems I was building for themand the processes and trying to
articulate a lot of things thatwere a bit more on the
(10:50):
intuitive side for me prior, andso I'd watch and I'd be like
you know what that person rocksthe process in a session where
they're trying to get people tocome up with novel ideas to
solve a problem.
But they didn't really connectwith the people in the room and
so the people in the room tunedout Cool.
Now we've got to iterate andfigure out, and it was like
(11:10):
again this whole time.
I think I had that role forfour years and I think a lot of
that time I spent thinking aboutwhat those on my team could do
in different ways to excel andget better and better and better
.
I don't know that I reallyreally processed it about myself
until this sabbatical I tookthat you and I discussed like
just this spring into summer,because then it's like it was
(11:33):
about four months that I had off, which I felt so fortunate and
grateful to be able to do that.
And when it's quiet and you'renot creating and you're not
managing, it doesn't have to befour months, right.
But you start looking inwardmore and suddenly I was like
hang on, a second man.
I've been coaching people to dothese things and I think we
talked about this the first timewe met.
(11:54):
The past made sense to me likeall of a sudden, and I've had a
couple of those moments, butthis sabbatical I took
definitely triggered one,because I was like man, I can
think way, way, way, way, way,way back to when I was in year
one, two, three, four of mycareer.
Although my job titles hadnothing to do necessarily with
what I do now, I was doing thisthing where I got groups of
(12:17):
people together.
I was the glue, I was helpingthem thrive in ways that either
they were self-conscious aboutor didn't know about.
It was like that's what I'vealways done.
But the wrapper around all mystuff was whatever you know,
like manager of internetmarketing or director of
marketing strategy.
Those titles became my thoughtand my identity.
But that's not in those jobshow I was successful, right?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
So one of the things about coaching and facilitating
teams, like as the facilitator,it's kind of difficult to know
if you did a good job.
Now, of course, you delivervalue right, but did I deliver
on the little nuance, magicalthings that I really, really
want to do, Like did I leave aseed in somebody's mind that's
(13:04):
going to grow into somethinggreater in the future is really
what I'm looking for.
And so, like, the affirmationof did I have an effect as a
facilitator is difficult becauseyou're not there.
You know a week later, a monthlater, a year later, and so I
wanted to know, like, how Natedealt with this affirmation
thing and maybe resilience ofworking through with or without
(13:27):
it, and he gave a pretty, prettyinsightful answer that I wonder
if this lands with you.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I think you know some of that too is just me slowly
but surely gaining moreconfidence and not worrying
about if someone else doesn'ttell me I did a good job.
Then I don't know where I fitin the universe.
The more I've becomecomfortable with recognizing
both where I'm not strong butwhere I am, that has helped me
process it more, because I thinkman, for me at least,
(13:54):
validation from others is a drug.
Like you get it and you're like, yes, I feel great.
And then 30 seconds later thedrug wears off and you're like
somebody tell me I'm amazingagain.
Right, I just dug up a buddy ofmine in high school who I just
kind of reconnected with onLinkedIn.
We both like Calvin and Hobbes,we were kids a comic and he
wrote the creator of it, billWatterson, and it was like my
(14:17):
birthday was coming up and he'slike my buddy's birthday is
coming up and he super lovesCalvin and Hobbes.
I don't know, I never saw theletter my friend sent, but I did
get back two big pieces of artfrom Bill Watterson sent in with
a form letter, and the one thatI just pulled up in my basement
literally this weekend.
The first panel up in the topleft is like congratulations,
(14:38):
calvin, you got an A.
And that's his teacher talkingto him and then most of the big
panel is like giant ticker tapeparade, like Calvin gets an A,
blah, blah, blah and there'slike streamers and all this
stuff and then the bottom rightcorner, the end of the comics,
like the teacher's saying, okay,moving on to the next topic,
and I'm like that's life, dude.
Like the way Calvin felt, likedude, I got an A especially.
(15:02):
I mean, at least I'm assumingbased on his character, he
didn't get a whole lot of A's.
You feel like you're top of theworld when somebody else pats
you on the head and then they'relike moving on, but you get
hooked right.
You're like how will I getsomebody to make me feel that
way again?
And I think some others, as Iobserve them, are far better
than I am at doing that forthemselves, which I think is
really healthy.
But man, I got super addictedto that.
(15:23):
I wish I'd been aware of in my20s.
I mean it makes all the sensein the world.
It's like.
I mean it's funny, like a lotof the things that are key to
success and really click for youseem like kind of common sense
and what you just said is likeduh.
If I want to mow my lawn, Ihave a system of how to get my
(15:43):
lawn mowed and that makes totalsense.
But we don't always do that forour own path and for our own
well-being and enjoyment and forthose around us.
So, yeah, it makes sense, and Ihave no idea why don't we learn
that in kindergarten?
Man, that seems like such animportant skill.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Speaking of being in our twenties, nate's story got
me reminiscing about the veryfirst time I documented my
system for influencing others.
Like don't get carried away,it's not super fancy.
I found it in a journal that Ihad written back like when I was
in fourth grade.
I found it in a journal that Ihad written back like when I was
in fourth grade and it was astory about how I would get
girls to chase me by pullingtheir hair.
And I think that falls squarelyin the bucket of influence and
(16:34):
me being aware of what thatsystem looked like.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
And Nate gives us a little bit of insight into how
he thinks of systems in the workthat he does.
I did have systems, probably,and didn't.
I wasn't just as intentionalabout them.
It's sort of like you got abehavior plan, whether you,
whether you think you do or notright now.
Is it a good one?
But zero effort or thought intoit's probably, unless you're
lucky, not so great and honestly, it's a little bit of a journey
(17:04):
.
I've been on the last couple ofyears where I've started to
create a documented system outof the things that were
successful for me this year.
That's this new business FourEyes is all about and it's
interesting because it's been achallenge.
It's only been a real thingsince Labor Day of 24 here, but
(17:25):
suddenly having to put on paperthese are the tools that I'm
going to repetitively use toachieve result X for others,
it's a lot of work, man.
I mean your process that youyou know, resulting in getting
chased by girls, wasstraightforward, like in the
business world, with tons ofhumans surrounding you on top of
the business problems.
Not so straightforward, right,that's been.
Actually the most interestingpart for me is trying to I think
(17:48):
you put it really well documentmaybe that system that I use,
which is fun.
It's hard because it's mysystem.
I'd be great at documentingyour system.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
More systems talk.
Can you tell that I likesystems.
Documenting your system is apain, but you want to know
what's harder?
It's identifying the thingsthat people appreciate about you
, that you're not like doing bydesign those intangible things.
(18:19):
That's something that like isultra, ultra valuable to me,
because, sure, you know, there'ssome things that I do here's my
plan, here's my process and andit works and it conveys the
information and I do those bydesign.
But there's a lot of thingsthat I do that people appreciate
or want more of or really likethat I'm not necessarily doing
(18:39):
on purpose and I don't know whatit is.
And the only way that I figuredout how to learn it is by
asking, like, super, superprecise questions, and I was
wondering how Nate does this forhimself.
So check it out.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Well, no, I think there are two parts to what you
just hit on, jesse.
The first is having others whoI would coach required me to
like figure out my process.
But yes, I was fortunate inthat same team we were talking
about earlier, thattransformation team that you
know.
The rest of my team gave mefeedback too, and that was
awesome because, to your point,there's stuff that you don't you
(19:15):
don't see in yourself, andsometimes that's the most simple
, obvious stuff, and you needsomebody external.
At the end of the day, I thinkthat's a simple, simple, obvious
stuff and you need somebodyexternal.
At the end of the day, I thinkthat's a simple process.
Objectively, it's harder to getinto a habit, right, but it's
like when you do something thatfeels important, afterwards just
ask and I think sometimes sothey're like these phrases that
(19:38):
you get taught in differenttraining seminars.
It's like this is how yourequest feedback or this is how
you give whatever works for you.
Man, like I literally like I'llget to the end of something
that I believe is important andI need to replicate.
That's an important part.
If it's one and done, importantand never gonna happen again in
your life, maybe not the besttime to like invest everybody's
energy, but something that'simportant and I wanna replicate
(20:00):
or improve upon.
But something that's importantand I want to replicate or
improve upon, how'd that workfor you guys?
Because I want to know and thensometimes people get stuck.
There's a technique that, when Iwas learning about how to run
product teams and not like thetechnology space, so like
product originally came from the.
You know the way technologycompanies referred to their
software.
They sold.
But you can use it in all kindsof spaces, right, like your
(20:22):
product.
I'm a product, like a servicewe sell could be a product.
And one of the organizationswho I've learned a lot across my
career by, like, hiring greatpeople as consultants and then
watching how they work and thentrying my best to replicate the
things that work the best.
Well, this company calledPillar Technologies no longer
around they got acquired byAccenture but they taught me the
(20:44):
retro, which, again, superbasic, right, if you're not
getting what you need with,how'd that work for all of you?
It's as simple as what workswell.
So those are the pluses.
What would you change for nexttime?
And they're little deltas,right, like the little triangle,
and then, if you really want to, you have a team that meets
over and over again, like in theproduct world.
You actually say cool, what aresome of the commitments and
(21:07):
who's going to own them?
To achieve difference?
Right, but at a minimum, justthat.
How about we talk about the goodand the not so good?
It gets people going rightBecause one person will say
something good and it gives thewhole room permission then to
give you constructive criticism.
But they're waiting.
No one wants to be the firstone to be like you talk too much
.
But when someone says you knowwhat, I love the amount of
(21:32):
information you provide, thatwas really cool.
Someone else can easily thenjump in and say but I wish you
opened the floor up a little bitmore.
So I think that's a nice cheatcode.
If the room isn't familiar withstraight up, how'd that work
for you?
And they start gushing.
Asking a group like that forfeedback is like asking your
spouse to schedule a touch base.
It's like buzzword overdose,right?
(21:54):
Nobody wants to talk like thatto each other, right?
We all want to enjoy each otheras humans and, yes,
conceptually it is feedback.
But I'm with you, man.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
So I was like totally jiving with Nate's perspective
on leadership because I couldsee like just in the way he
speaks he practices leadershipin the way I most appreciate it.
And so I was like, you know, Iwonder what he thinks about
academic or leadership asdefined in the world of academia
(22:26):
.
And he did not disappoint.
Check it out.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Oh, that's a cool question.
Well, it's funny.
You mentioned so thisconventional leadership tactics
thing.
There are billions of people onthe planet, right, and so you
can research, sure, objectively,and say like this is what seems
to work in general forleaderships, and so we're
calling this the leadershipsystem.
So go rock it, dude.
Well, there are people that'sgoing to work really well for
(22:53):
and there are people that it'snot going to do anything but
backfire on, and there aredefinitely behaviors that I've
been coached to adapt or adopt,and some of them I'm like man,
what great advice that was,because it works really well for
me and others I'm like I neverwant to do that again, not
because it might be the bestthing in the world for you,
jesse, but for me, in the way Ishow up, it looks really obvious
(23:19):
you're wearing a mask sometimeswhen you pull on one of those
behaviors and everyone's likewho's that guy?
We don't need a performer,right?
We need a teammate or a boss orwhatever it is so far.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Nate's kind of becoming my BFF, just his
insight, the way he thinks aboutthings.
So I said you know what?
Let me hit him with the curveball.
Let's see how he thinks aboutsocial media and if there is or
isn't an opportunity, or if it'sa resource to like build
knowledge, learn and acquireskills through.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
I agree with that and I think so.
There's a lot of stuff that Ithink could be a whole lot
cooler about social media, butone of the things I do like
about it is you can find theselittle like micro populations of
people that sharecharacteristics, right, and then
the algorithm keeps giving youmore and more and more.
So I have found that, in orderto figure out what to keep, what
(24:12):
to throw away, what to try,I've been finding a lot of luck
in, you know, even on just likeInstagram.
It's like I watch a few thingsabout other people who succeed
in business with ADHD, which Ihave, and they're like this is
how I get through task X, andit's often something that you'd
never get coached to do intypical leadership training, but
(24:33):
I'll try it.
And sometimes it's like, well,that randomly happened to work
for that person, whatever, butmore often than not, because the
ADHD brain sets have somesimilar characteristics, I'm
like, oh, that tip works for me.
And similarly it's like, as Ifind other people who kind of
self-identify as an empath, whocan understand what others are
feeling intuitively, this is howI handle this situation.
(24:55):
I'm like that I like.
But a leader who has a totallydifferent makeup?
Is that linear thinker, maybemore of a command and control
style of leadership?
None of those things are goingto work for that person and,
frankly, none of their thingsare going to work for me, but it
doesn't mean I shouldn'trespect them and understand that
.
You know this can be useful forthem.
(25:16):
For me, like whether itactually looks great or not, it
doesn't really matter, but likethere's a lot of shirts that you
just don't feel right in, rightY'all already know I love
zigzagging around, I ask a bunchof questions.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Nate was handing it like a champ, and so I needed to
bring us back to like the realhuman, like inside, internal
experience of being in front ofthe room all the time, because
if you haven't done it, rather alot of it's supposed to be like
.
The number one fear of allpeople is public speaking.
And then there's wackos like meand Nate that do it for a
(25:49):
living and there is an exchangeof energy.
Sure, when I'm up out there,I'm giving it all and I'm happy
and I'm trying to pump up thepositivity and forward thinking
and all that good stuff, but I'malso receiving energy and it
can get heavy at times.
So I wanted to get Nate'sperspective and you're going to
(26:10):
want to get your notepad out forthis especially for his insight
on dealing with situations thatseem to be cursed with the
black magic.
And if you're in construction,you already know you've been in
those job trailers and it's likeman, there's some brujeria in
here, there's some bad juju, andhere's what he's got to say
about that.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, the honest answer is, even though I like
test as an extrovert, which intheory means I rebuild my energy
by being around others whenI've had to do a lot of you know
human work, where I'mfacilitating others, or I mean
really empaths, like feelothers' emotions, which is
really weird sounding right, butthank goodness for Guardians of
(26:51):
the Galaxy they have that likethat character with wacky
antennae.
He's like an empath.
I'm like okay, now peopleunderstand, but like it's
exhausting eventually becausesome people bring big, big
feelings, especially if they'reanger or grief or just pure
sadness that someone's bringingto the table, and you feel your
(27:12):
little bit of that Not all of it, right, but you feel your share
.
I don't use the extrovertrecharge path for that.
The honest answer is I justcrush some Netflix in a dark
room by myself.
Sometimes I have my dog with meand we just chill.
But I need that downtime torecover from it because, even
(27:33):
though it is my nature dude,it's a lot, I think.
Until I realized the strengthsand what I thought were
weaknesses, I became a master atrunning away from the
weaknesses and putting on facade.
So I used to get and I still do, because this is a strength I
like to be able to use in somesituations.
But I'll get feedback of manwhen the room is going crazy,
(27:57):
you just have total poker facelike really calm and especially
kind of middle of my career whenI was successful.
They're like you can't berattled man, that's one of your
strengths, like unflappable, andI'm like, yeah, you have no
idea, but I mastered my facialexpressions and how I carried
myself and some of my bodylanguage, and so this, for me it
(28:19):
was this, and I am a casual,relaxed kind of person.
But I amplified that to be likeI'm unflappable and none of
this hits me, and so I trulyjust built this other persona to
manage it for a long time.
But what I didn't realize wasit still builds up in you.
It doesn't matter what I putout to others.
(28:41):
The piece of me that reacts,the way I react, is still
happening, and so I was stillraking in all their feelings.
And then I was like super chilldude.
And so the boomerang part iswell, when I started realizing
that was actually making me lesseffective, I was like turning
myself into the corporate robot.
I was like this is how I'msupposed to behave.
(29:02):
I went to all the leadershipseminars you were talking about.
Then I was like, uh-oh, well, Iwent too far, right, how do I
shed some of that?
And honestly, I screwed that upa ton, man, I would try to shed
some of those things.
And people would be like, whywere you such a baby in that
meeting?
And I'm like, well, because,dude, I'm trying to like take
off all these masks, right, it'sunfamiliar territory to kind of
(29:23):
get back to you and now I thinkthe boomerangs come full circle
.
I think my biggest tool toanswer your question is to just
put it out there.
I'm feeling some underlyinganger in this room right now.
Fall it out, because otherwisewhat I used to do is I took
everybody else's anger and I gotall stressed out and I mean
(29:44):
transparently, man, it turnsinto like digestive issues, like
pain in your gut and otherthings.
It's like when I just say I'msensing some like anger in this
room that's not been expressed,I actually just like let all
that out back to the group, andso I'm not the only one holding
the anger that I've been feelingfrom the room.
I gave it back to him.
(30:05):
I'm like what are we going todo about it?
And that has helped me a tonI'm going to nerd out for just a
second here, right?
So when I was in, so I worked inhealthcare for about a decade
and one of the things I learnedwas, of all the different
specialties, neuroscience haskind of the least certainty of
what drives what, like our ownminds, which is, you know, in
(30:31):
our brains.
That's where, like emotions getformed, thoughts that trigger
behaviors, all kinds of otherstuff.
It's the least understooddiscipline.
And then what's crazy is I justlearned this a few weeks ago is
the latest supercomputer calledFrontier, that is on the top of
the performance list.
It finally has the exact sameat least theorized processing
capabilities of the human brain.
And so you're like, oh no,robots cut up the humans.
(30:53):
And then you look at what thissupercomputer can do and you're
like I'm carrying thatsupercomputer around in my head.
I mean I think it costs likehundreds of a few hundred
million dollars to build.
Now what's crazy is we knowwhat that supercomputer does
because we put we humans put thesoftware on.
We don't know our softwareright.
And so, like those neurosciencedocs that I worked with, they
(31:16):
would say that over and overagain and over again.
They're like a lot of timeswe're managing how to deal with
symptoms from neurologicalconditions because the science
hasn't caught up yet.
So I got a supercomputer that'sdoing all kinds of stuff, and
so does everybody else in theroom in that possessed trailer.
They do too, and none of usreally understand what software
was installed.
And, dude, you get one programon your laptop that isn't doing
(31:40):
what you think it's doing.
Your life goes crazy.
They update the MicrosoftOutlook, like how do you sort
stuff Like your day's over, likethe fact that you're running
different software in yoursupercomputer than I'm running
in mine, like we got to get itout there right, like otherwise
your system just spins and goescrazy.
So to just keep nerding out onbrain science for a minute, I
(32:01):
just learned in a I wasresearching for a presentation I
just gave where kind of newthinking comes from in the brain
.
Like creative thinking.
I just gave where kind of newthinking comes from in the brain
, like creative thinking.
And it's the process your brainuse actually starts in your
hippocampus, which is the samespace facts from the pastor
store and forward thinking isall it is is novel
(32:25):
reconstructions of stuff that'sin your storage, and so the way
I shared this with the group Ipresented to was one of the
things I do to rechargesometimes is I cook just by
myself for myself, and when Iopen my cupboards in my
refrigerator and I've got CocoaKrispies, marshmallows, ice
(32:46):
cream and some pickles, thoseare my raw materials to create
something new.
That's going to be disgusting,right, and so it's like the
analogy is all right.
Well, that's the stuff I put inmy hippocampus, that bookshelf
of past experiences andknowledge.
What's the coolest thing I cancreate going forward?
It's the same raw materials.
So it's like if you don't havespices and proteins and other
(33:10):
fresh ingredients in yourkitchen, you're never going to
create something delicious andnew.
Same story with what you justsaid.
Like I mean I've read this onlike a couple of different
psychology organization websitesand Cleveland Clinic had a
really good story about it it'slike if you don't have memories
or thoughts stored from pastexperience that allow you to
(33:31):
have new thinking headed in thedirection you want, you're stuck
.
It's like imagine if there's aplace where no one's ever
thought of or seen a smartphone.
So when they're imagining theirfuture, they don't go back into
their data file, theirhippocampus, and be like oh well
, I could use the touchscreenfeatures of a smartphone to
accomplish blah, blah, blah,because they'd never heard of
one.
And so I think that's where thescience supports what you just
(33:54):
said If you don't fill yourmemory banks up with the raw
materials to go forward, you'renever going to go forward.
That gave me a new appreciationfor this concept of like be a
continuous learner.
I'm like, seriously, I got tokeep being a student forever,
but I've been.
Now I've shifted my gear tosaying, like, I'm continuously
putting delicious things in mycupboards, so when it's time to
(34:17):
cook something that reallysatisfies me, I got the raw
materials.
And you're right, man, if allyou've got is, you know, garbage
memory stored, let's face it.
Like the reality is, some of ushave garbage experiences and
garbage tastes stored.
Let's face it, the reality is,some of us have garbage
experiences and garbage tastes.
Even I've got some things thatI love to do, some of that
Netflix stuff that I've beenthrough, probably not so helpful
(34:38):
, but at a minimum I can floodmy memories with other knowledge
and experiences that could beconstructive.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Did you know that the seahorse is my spirit animal?
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah, that's actually so.
This is going to sound like Iknow a lot more than I do, but
it's actually named that becausehippocampus is the first part
of the scientific name for theseahorse.
Yeah, it's literally namedafter the seahorse.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Oh my goodness.
So Nate mentioned continuouslearning, which of course, I'm a
huge, huge, huge advocate for,and it just tickled me around
this continuous improvementstuff, which you know I am one
of the afflicted, and so I saidokay, nate, let's talk about
continuous improvement.
What do you think about it?
Have you been exposed to it?
And what I like about hisanswer is the like.
(35:25):
The real issue for a lot of usis this like pursuit of
perfection or pursuit ofexcellence, and the way he deals
with it is, I think, it's ahealthy way to deal with it.
Check it out.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
I think it's awesome.
One of my favorite slides thatI completely borrowed from
someone else is like I kind ofrefocused it a little bit my own
way I found a GIF of a pit crewchanging tires in real time.
Now it's sped up and you watchit and you're like I want to
learn more about how pit crewswork.
Not because I'm ever going tochange tires at the speed they
(35:56):
do, but there's something in theprocess, in the system.
Those guys communicate with nowords in a noisy environment and
do miraculous things that noneof us think we could.
We don't even think we can moveour hands that fast.
Sweet, I may never work in anindustry where that's remotely
relevant, but the way that theyhave like and it's got all the
(36:19):
sand out of the gears of thatprocess and iterated and
iterated and achieve somethingthat blows your mind, you can
apply that anywhere, and sothat's a cool little piece of
knowledge that I foundinteresting.
And so I went down a littlerabbit hole and I have applied
it numerous times to just belike you know what it might take
the average human 30 minutes tochange a tire, and it takes
these guys, whatever it is, sixseconds.
(36:40):
What's our version of gettingfrom 30 minutes to six seconds.
Right, like it can be done,it's humanly possible.
But, dude, yeah, you can't evensee all the things that are
going on at once, because it'stoo much yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
You know, all this time I've been having fun with
Nate I'm pretty sure you've beenhaving fun with Nate and I
almost like completely forgot toask him about his business,
because he does have a business.
The name of his business isFour Eyes Facilitation.
The link is going to be in theshow notes, so check them out.
Don't go clicking until youhear his description of what it
(37:12):
is that he does, why he does it,because I'm pretty sure after
you hear that you're going to belike man, I need to connect
with this dude because he canhelp us, or I know somebody he
can help.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, sweet, so maybe I'll flip the order.
So foureyesfacilitationcom allspelled out in words, no numbers
is the website.
You can get a detailed view ofwhat I'm up to and I'm saying I
because this is the first timeever.
This is just me and the intentis I'm selling the experience
and the skills I've built thefirst 25 years of my career.
(37:45):
Eventually it may grow, butfoureyesfacilitationcom and what
anyone will find looking onthat site or talking to me is my
whole goal is to offerworkshops, speaking engagements,
training that allow people toaccomplish things that they
never thought they could on theupstream, front end of business
process.
So making sure the vision issupported by a strategy that is
(38:10):
outcome-focused and accessibleto all in the organization, and
so I'll facilitate strategicworkshops, even visioning if
necessary, but then all the waythrough to, we know what we're
going to do this quarter, we'vegot a nice strategy that
differentiates us and we knowhow we win.
Now what are the initiativeswe're going to hit this year?
(38:30):
Let's define them.
And how do you resource thosethings so that not everybody
says, oh my gosh, I got too muchto do and too few resources,
right, like, and then I'm out.
In a nutshell, it's like Ifacilitate alignment.
But a lot of times it's in aspace where we create a lot of
myth around strategy andinnovation and assume it's only
for a special few.
(38:51):
Sure, some of us are moreintuitively in that space.
Some of us are more intuitivelycreative in building new ideas,
but it's all processed thatwith the right person in the
room you can nail, and so youknow I have a lot of proprietary
tools that I've built, which,by the way, I give away free to
all my clients, because I don'tbelieve in charging people for a
tool.
I'm charging them for mypresence.
(39:13):
But yeah, I use those to helpfacilitate people through
structured strategic development, innovating new products and
services, all the way up to allright, we're resourced and ready
to go and the goal is, you know, you got a leadership team.
That's lockstep on all of that,coming out of the section in
the session and lockstep doesn'tnecessarily mean you know you
battled through so thateverybody had consensus on
(39:34):
everything.
Lockstep means we're allcommitted right, like there
might have been something that Iproposed and you had a
counterpoint to it and ourmutual ceo said jesse's idea is
the way we're going to do it.
Walking out of line means I sayI'm in, I'm going to be, I'm
going to to be there with Jesse,just like it was my idea.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Oh baby, this was a good one, and, as usual, I hit
him with the finale question,which was what is the promise
you are intended to be?
And his response does not faildoes not fail.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
I am intended to fulfill the promise of helping
people realize they've gotcapabilities within them they
never knew about and bring themto life so that they can thrive
and honestly, I mean, I knowthis part sounds a little more
on the woo-woo spectrum butbring some joy to their life.
And so I think, in a nutshell,it's bring a lot more joy to
people's life.
But how Help them understandstrengths they never thought
they had, including how tocollaborate with folks of all
(40:39):
different makeups?
I think it costs like hundreds of millions, a few
hundred million dollars to build.
Now what's crazy is we knowwhat that supercomputer does
because we humans put thesoftware on.
We don't know our software.
Validation from others is adrug.
Like you get it and you're likeyes, I feel great.
And then 30 seconds later thedrug wears off and you're like
(00:21):
somebody tell me I'm amazingagain.
I watch a few things aboutother people who succeed in
business with ADHD, which I have, and they're like this is how I
get through task X.
And it's often something thatyou'd never get coached to do in
typical leadership training.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
What is going on L&M family.
We're going to have a superawesome conversation.
It's like a part two to aconversation that you're not
going to get to hear.
But Mr Nate Rogers and I kickedthis off.
I don't know, it's probablybeen a month or so ago.
I was fortunate enough thatMegan introduced us and made the
connection.
We had a conversation.
I was like bro, we need to getyou on the podcast.
(01:06):
He's got tons of energy, tons ofinsight.
He is the founder of Four EyesFacilitation, which I love the
name.
He's got massive, massiveexperience in retail and
healthcare at the executivelevel, and I think what you're
going to learn is we have thesame I'll just call it vice in
(01:29):
terms of experimenting, learning, growing and serving others,
and so y'all are going to get toknow Mr Nate here in a second.
If this is your first time here, I'm Jesse, your selfish
servant, and this is theLearnings and Mystics podcast,
where you get to see how realpeople just like you are sharing
(01:51):
their gifts and talents toleave this world better than
they found it, and we are aboutto learn how Mr Nate is going to
do that right now.
Mr Nate, how are you, my man?
I'm good, jesse, thanks so muchfor having me, yeah likewise,
I'm good, jesse.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, likewise.
So I got a simple question youready, yep?
What is empathetic facilitation?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Oh, that's a simple question.
It's a little trickier toanswer, but I'll hit it up.
So actually, when I was a kid,I called this ability called
empathy, sensitivity, and sostuff happened on the playground
and I'd freak out.
My buddies would say, likedon't be so sensitive.
And eventually, especially as Iprogressed through my career, I
learned that it was actually myEQ, or my ability to empathize
(02:34):
with others, and when you readit in the dictionary you're like
, oh so this dude can feel otherpeople's feelings and so he's
in tune with them.
Sweet Like it sounds, like we'reall going to go out in the
woods and have granola and havea nice time.
But when it comes to thebusiness world and facilitation,
what it actually means is inthe room.
When I'm helping a group ofleaders be their best, I'm
reading them.
(02:54):
Just because of some of mynatural talents, I'm seeing that
little tick in somebody's facethat says I'm not sure I agree
with what that other individualjust said, and so it helps me.
I'm not sure I agree with whatthat other individual just said,
and so it helps me as I'mhelping those leaders know when
it's time to pause to say I needyou to respond, charlie, to
Sally, because she just hadsomething to share and I watched
(03:17):
your face.
There's something going on.
Sometimes it's tone of voice,sometimes it's body language,
and it's all learnable For me, Iguess.
I was fortunate enough to bethat sensitive kid and so it's a
little ingrained in how Ioperate.
In a nutshell, it's just thepractice of facilitating people
to do more than they ever couldbefore by paying attention to
how they're feeling.
Yes, like all superpowers, whenI was a kid I thought it was a
(03:38):
super weakness.
It's different in differentcultures, right, but at least
when I was younger, we werestill in the era of hiding your
emotions and being more on themacho side, especially as a male
.
So, being that kid that blushedeasily or, in certain
circumstances, would even cry,culturally or socially, it felt
like a weakness, and peoplewould even explicitly say that
(03:58):
to me, right, and so I worked alot to suppress it.
So not to interrupt you, butyeah, it's definitely super
strength, but didn't know it fora long, long time.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
For my fellow empaths .
You know exactly how exhaustingthis is, because people look at
you sideways so you try to maskit and naturally I'm like man.
I got to ask Nate about thisthing, really wanted to know how
his energy is impacted, andthis is what he responded.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Exhausting, dude.
I mean, it just takes a lot ofenergy to not be you and I feel
like we've all been there before, right, and so it's tiring,
it's disheartening when youshape yourself more than you
should in order to respond tothe world around you and makes
you wonder like, okay, thesepeople who are close to me, are
(04:46):
they really close to me?
Me or the version of me I'vechose to put out because I think
that's what others want to seeand frankly, especially as I get
older, I think we all do that.
I think I spent a lot of timewhen I was younger thinking I
was the only one, but that'sjust the conversation none of us
have with each other, right?
It's like there's the versionof me I put out there and I
think anyone could say a similarstory.
(05:09):
They just may have differentcharacteristics that they're
either shaping or molding to fitin differently.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Different characteristics that really
really stood out to me.
It made me curious if he knewthat this empathy thing was a
strength and that it would leadto the life he's living today.
So let's see what he says.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Throughout my career, at like every step where most
folks would say, okay, that'sprogress or you know, a step
towards or a step into success,I've relied honestly on those
around me to tell me A that I'mdoing well, instead of it just
coming from me like saying, oh,I know, I'm crushing it right
now.
But then I think also I haven'talways known why I've been
(05:53):
successful.
And it's interesting, I thinkthe more leadership groups I
become a part of and the morebusinesses I become exposed to I
think that's a common trait wetend to be better at knowing
when we weren't successful andwe pick that apart and we know
why.
But when you are finallysitting on top of the mountain,
not everyone, and certainly notmyself, can say I know exactly
(06:15):
why I got here.
I think there's certainpersonality types that are very
linear thinkers and they knowthe path and they're like yeah,
I got on top of the mountainbecause I chose to deprive
myself of oxygen the same way itwas going to be when I was on
top of the mountain by doing X,y, z and carrying rocks on my
back through the park.
But that's not most of us.
Most of us are sort of likewell, there's a million
(06:37):
variables going on around me andsomehow right now I'm
successful, and so I had no ideauntil, honestly, very recently
probably the last four or fiveyears I've been really unpacking
it and finally understandingmore.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Are you wondering the same thing?
I'm wondering.
I was thinking like, okay, sowhen exactly did you have the
aha moment about this magicability?
And of course I asked that's agood question.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
I don't know that it was necessarily a single aha,
but it was right around.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
But before that we're going to do the L&M family
member shout out, and this onegoes to Renee.
Renee Duron says I'm so glad Isigned up for Jesse's do the
damn thing time managementworkshop.
It completely shifted how I'mso glad I signed up for Jesse's
Do the Damn Thing timemanagement workshop.
It completely shifted how I'mgoing to handle my time and
ideas moving forward.
One of the biggest takeawaysfor me was learning the art of
(07:36):
monthly and quarterly planning,specifically to manage my
squirrels.
Rene, thank you.
And Rene gets an extra, extrashout out because he's also the
editor of the L&M podcast and soI'm going to make him blush a
little bit.
But he and 14 other people hungout on the time management
workshop.
I was worried that it was goingto kind of be roll your eye,
(07:58):
boring type stuff, but a lot ofpeople got a lot of value out of
it and we're going to be doingthem again in the future.
And folks out there, you'relistening.
You got to know I love thecomments, I love the shares, I
love the stars, the thumbs up,the thumbs down.
Please hit me up with yourcomments so that I can celebrate
you in the future.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
When I pivoted into a role leading a transformation
team at Ohio Health, which is apretty large 30,000 employee
healthcare system in CentralOhio, and it was probably the
most purposeful time where I wastrying to get others to
innovate and stepping backmyself.
So I was more creating theproblems to solve and the
(08:38):
environment for success andcoaching people.
But I had to pull away.
Usually until that point I wassuccessful a lot, I felt like
because I was bringing a freshperspective or the thinking or
the work product I created.
I've been leading people for 10, 15 years before that, but this
was the time where I really gotout of the work and into
(09:02):
helping others thrive in themost meaningful way I ever had
and that made me start to say,well, all right, if I'm going to
help somebody else.
Or in this case, it was like Ihad six directors reporting to
me that ran these transformationprojects.
I was like when we get thosesix directors to thrive doing
the thing that the business hasfound valuable from me, I need
(09:22):
to learn what the heck it isthat works and doesn't work
right.
I'm sure a lot of people who'vehad one moment or another where
they've been successful someonesaid to them.
Man, it'd be great if we justhad a few more Jessys here.
And so this was like literalmoment of Nate.
Go help us have six more Natesand innovate and transform the
(09:43):
way we deliver care to ourpatients.
It's like sweet, that soundsawesome.
Who the hell is Nate?
You know what I mean?
It's like those outside observeyou all the time and you're
busy watching them and observingthem.
So I think that was probablythe biggest trigger, and then
it's been kind of progressivesince then, because I mean, when
you talked about peeling theonion, it's like once you start
picking, it's hard to stop.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
I know that introspection is like super,
ultra, ultimate, valuable, and Ialso know guiding teams
effectively takes massiveintrospection Like for me as an
individual and Nate's like noscrub.
He's got it going on, so Iwanted to really get a sense of
how he goes about looking inwardand what value he gets out of
(10:27):
that.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Well, yeah, I think that's right, and I think
helping coach people through andobserve them at work doing the
things that historically I'ddone well, frankly, it was the
most fantastic experiment Icould have ever asked for.
Right, because it was like Igot to watch these folks try the
systems I was building for themand the processes and trying to
articulate a lot of things thatwere a bit more on the
(10:50):
intuitive side for me prior, andso I'd watch and I'd be like
you know what that person rocksthe process in a session where
they're trying to get people tocome up with novel ideas to
solve a problem.
But they didn't really connectwith the people in the room and
so the people in the room tunedout Cool.
Now we've got to iterate andfigure out, and it was like
(11:10):
again this whole time.
I think I had that role forfour years and I think a lot of
that time I spent thinking aboutwhat those on my team could do
in different ways to excel andget better and better and better
.
I don't know that I reallyreally processed it about myself
until this sabbatical I tookthat you and I discussed like
just this spring into summer,because then it's like it was
(11:33):
about four months that I had off, which I felt so fortunate and
grateful to be able to do that.
And when it's quiet and you'renot creating and you're not
managing, it doesn't have to befour months, right.
But you start looking inwardmore and suddenly I was like
hang on, a second man.
I've been coaching people to dothese things and I think we
talked about this the first timewe met.
(11:54):
The past made sense to me likeall of a sudden, and I've had a
couple of those moments, butthis sabbatical I took
definitely triggered one,because I was like man, I can
think way, way, way, way, way,way back to when I was in year
one, two, three, four of mycareer.
Although my job titles hadnothing to do necessarily with
what I do now, I was doing thisthing where I got groups of
(12:17):
people together.
I was the glue, I was helpingthem thrive in ways that either
they were self-conscious aboutor didn't know about.
It was like that's what I'vealways done.
But the wrapper around all mystuff was whatever you know,
like manager of internetmarketing or director of
marketing strategy.
Those titles became my thoughtand my identity.
But that's not in those jobshow I was successful, right?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
So one of the things about coaching and facilitating
teams, like as the facilitator,it's kind of difficult to know
if you did a good job.
Now, of course, you delivervalue right, but did I deliver
on the little nuance, magicalthings that I really, really
want to do, Like did I leave aseed in somebody's mind that's
(13:04):
going to grow into somethinggreater in the future is really
what I'm looking for.
And so, like, the affirmationof did I have an effect as a
facilitator is difficult becauseyou're not there.
You know a week later, a monthlater, a year later, and so I
wanted to know, like, how Natedealt with this affirmation
thing and maybe resilience ofworking through with or without
(13:27):
it, and he gave a pretty, prettyinsightful answer that I wonder
if this lands with you.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I think you know some of that too is just me slowly
but surely gaining moreconfidence and not worrying
about if someone else doesn'ttell me I did a good job.
Then I don't know where I fitin the universe.
The more I've becomecomfortable with recognizing
both where I'm not strong butwhere I am, that has helped me
process it more, because I thinkman, for me at least,
(13:54):
validation from others is a drug.
Like you get it and you're like, yes, I feel great.
And then 30 seconds later thedrug wears off and you're like
somebody tell me I'm amazingagain.
Right, I just dug up a buddy ofmine in high school who I just
kind of reconnected with onLinkedIn.
We both like Calvin and Hobbes,we were kids a comic and he
wrote the creator of it, billWatterson, and it was like my
(14:17):
birthday was coming up and he'slike my buddy's birthday is
coming up and he super lovesCalvin and Hobbes.
I don't know, I never saw theletter my friend sent, but I did
get back two big pieces of artfrom Bill Watterson sent in with
a form letter, and the one thatI just pulled up in my basement
literally this weekend.
The first panel up in the topleft is like congratulations,
(14:38):
calvin, you got an A.
And that's his teacher talkingto him and then most of the big
panel is like giant ticker tapeparade, like Calvin gets an A,
blah, blah, blah and there'slike streamers and all this
stuff and then the bottom rightcorner, the end of the comics,
like the teacher's saying, okay,moving on to the next topic,
and I'm like that's life, dude.
Like the way Calvin felt, likedude, I got an A especially.
(15:02):
I mean, at least I'm assumingbased on his character, he
didn't get a whole lot of A's.
You feel like you're top of theworld when somebody else pats
you on the head and then they'relike moving on, but you get
hooked right.
You're like how will I getsomebody to make me feel that
way again?
And I think some others, as Iobserve them, are far better
than I am at doing that forthemselves, which I think is
really healthy.
But man, I got super addictedto that.
(15:23):
I wish I'd been aware of in my20s.
I mean it makes all the sensein the world.
It's like.
I mean it's funny, like a lotof the things that are key to
success and really click for youseem like kind of common sense
and what you just said is likeduh.
If I want to mow my lawn, Ihave a system of how to get my
(15:43):
lawn mowed and that makes totalsense.
But we don't always do that forour own path and for our own
well-being and enjoyment and forthose around us.
So, yeah, it makes sense, and Ihave no idea why don't we learn
that in kindergarten?
Man, that seems like such animportant skill.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Speaking of being in our twenties, nate's story got
me reminiscing about the veryfirst time I documented my
system for influencing others.
Like don't get carried away,it's not super fancy.
I found it in a journal that Ihad written back like when I was
in fourth grade.
I found it in a journal that Ihad written back like when I was
in fourth grade and it was astory about how I would get
girls to chase me by pullingtheir hair.
And I think that falls squarelyin the bucket of influence and
(16:34):
me being aware of what thatsystem looked like.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
And Nate gives us a little bit of insight into how
he thinks of systems in the workthat he does.
I did have systems, probably,and didn't.
I wasn't just as intentionalabout them.
It's sort of like you got abehavior plan, whether you,
whether you think you do or notright now.
Is it a good one?
But zero effort or thought intoit's probably, unless you're
lucky, not so great and honestly, it's a little bit of a journey
(17:04):
.
I've been on the last couple ofyears where I've started to
create a documented system outof the things that were
successful for me this year.
That's this new business FourEyes is all about and it's
interesting because it's been achallenge.
It's only been a real thingsince Labor Day of 24 here, but
(17:25):
suddenly having to put on paperthese are the tools that I'm
going to repetitively use toachieve result X for others,
it's a lot of work, man.
I mean your process that youyou know, resulting in getting
chased by girls, wasstraightforward, like in the
business world, with tons ofhumans surrounding you on top of
the business problems.
Not so straightforward, right,that's been.
Actually the most interestingpart for me is trying to I think
(17:48):
you put it really well documentmaybe that system that I use,
which is fun.
It's hard because it's mysystem.
I'd be great at documentingyour system.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
More systems talk.
Can you tell that I likesystems.
Documenting your system is apain, but you want to know
what's harder?
It's identifying the thingsthat people appreciate about you
, that you're not like doing bydesign those intangible things.
(18:19):
That's something that like isultra, ultra valuable to me,
because, sure, you know, there'ssome things that I do here's my
plan, here's my process and andit works and it conveys the
information and I do those bydesign.
But there's a lot of thingsthat I do that people appreciate
or want more of or really likethat I'm not necessarily doing
(18:39):
on purpose and I don't know whatit is.
And the only way that I figuredout how to learn it is by
asking, like, super, superprecise questions, and I was
wondering how Nate does this forhimself.
So check it out.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Well, no, I think there are two parts to what you
just hit on, jesse.
The first is having others whoI would coach required me to
like figure out my process.
But yes, I was fortunate inthat same team we were talking
about earlier, thattransformation team that you
know.
The rest of my team gave mefeedback too, and that was
awesome because, to your point,there's stuff that you don't you
(19:15):
don't see in yourself, andsometimes that's the most simple
, obvious stuff, and you needsomebody external.
At the end of the day, I thinkthat's a simple, simple, obvious
stuff and you need somebodyexternal.
At the end of the day, I thinkthat's a simple process.
Objectively, it's harder to getinto a habit, right, but it's
like when you do something thatfeels important, afterwards just
ask and I think sometimes sothey're like these phrases that
(19:38):
you get taught in differenttraining seminars.
It's like this is how yourequest feedback or this is how
you give whatever works for you.
Man, like I literally like I'llget to the end of something
that I believe is important andI need to replicate.
That's an important part.
If it's one and done, importantand never gonna happen again in
your life, maybe not the besttime to like invest everybody's
energy, but something that'simportant and I wanna replicate
(20:00):
or improve upon.
But something that's importantand I want to replicate or
improve upon, how'd that workfor you guys?
Because I want to know and thensometimes people get stuck.
There's a technique that, when Iwas learning about how to run
product teams and not like thetechnology space, so like
product originally came from the.
You know the way technologycompanies referred to their
software.
They sold.
But you can use it in all kindsof spaces, right, like your
(20:22):
product.
I'm a product, like a servicewe sell could be a product.
And one of the organizationswho I've learned a lot across my
career by, like, hiring greatpeople as consultants and then
watching how they work and thentrying my best to replicate the
things that work the best.
Well, this company calledPillar Technologies no longer
around they got acquired byAccenture but they taught me the
(20:44):
retro, which, again, superbasic, right, if you're not
getting what you need with,how'd that work for all of you?
It's as simple as what workswell.
So those are the pluses.
What would you change for nexttime?
And they're little deltas,right, like the little triangle,
and then, if you really want to, you have a team that meets
over and over again, like in theproduct world.
You actually say cool, what aresome of the commitments and
(21:07):
who's going to own them?
To achieve difference?
Right, but at a minimum, justthat.
How about we talk about the goodand the not so good?
It gets people going rightBecause one person will say
something good and it gives thewhole room permission then to
give you constructive criticism.
But they're waiting.
No one wants to be the firstone to be like you talk too much
.
But when someone says you knowwhat, I love the amount of
(21:32):
information you provide, thatwas really cool.
Someone else can easily thenjump in and say but I wish you
opened the floor up a little bitmore.
So I think that's a nice cheatcode.
If the room isn't familiar withstraight up, how'd that work
for you?
And they start gushing.
Asking a group like that forfeedback is like asking your
spouse to schedule a touch base.
It's like buzzword overdose,right?
(21:54):
Nobody wants to talk like thatto each other, right?
We all want to enjoy each otheras humans and, yes,
conceptually it is feedback.
But I'm with you, man.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
So I was like totally jiving with Nate's perspective
on leadership because I couldsee like just in the way he
speaks he practices leadershipin the way I most appreciate it.
And so I was like, you know, Iwonder what he thinks about
academic or leadership asdefined in the world of academia
(22:26):
.
And he did not disappoint.
Check it out.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Oh, that's a cool question.
Well, it's funny.
You mentioned so thisconventional leadership tactics
thing.
There are billions of people onthe planet, right, and so you
can research, sure, objectively,and say like this is what seems
to work in general forleaderships, and so we're
calling this the leadershipsystem.
So go rock it, dude.
Well, there are people that'sgoing to work really well for
(22:53):
and there are people that it'snot going to do anything but
backfire on, and there aredefinitely behaviors that I've
been coached to adapt or adopt,and some of them I'm like man,
what great advice that was,because it works really well for
me and others I'm like I neverwant to do that again, not
because it might be the bestthing in the world for you,
jesse, but for me, in the way Ishow up, it looks really obvious
(23:19):
you're wearing a mask sometimeswhen you pull on one of those
behaviors and everyone's likewho's that guy?
We don't need a performer,right?
We need a teammate or a boss orwhatever it is so far.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Nate's kind of becoming my BFF, just his
insight, the way he thinks aboutthings.
So I said you know what?
Let me hit him with the curveball.
Let's see how he thinks aboutsocial media and if there is or
isn't an opportunity, or if it'sa resource to like build
knowledge, learn and acquireskills through.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
I agree with that and I think so.
There's a lot of stuff that Ithink could be a whole lot
cooler about social media, butone of the things I do like
about it is you can find theselittle like micro populations of
people that sharecharacteristics, right, and then
the algorithm keeps giving youmore and more and more.
So I have found that, in orderto figure out what to keep, what
(24:12):
to throw away, what to try,I've been finding a lot of luck
in, you know, even on just likeInstagram.
It's like I watch a few thingsabout other people who succeed
in business with ADHD, which Ihave, and they're like this is
how I get through task X, andit's often something that you'd
never get coached to do intypical leadership training, but
(24:33):
I'll try it.
And sometimes it's like, well,that randomly happened to work
for that person, whatever, butmore often than not, because the
ADHD brain sets have somesimilar characteristics, I'm
like, oh, that tip works for me.
And similarly it's like, as Ifind other people who kind of
self-identify as an empath, whocan understand what others are
feeling intuitively, this is howI handle this situation.
(24:55):
I'm like that I like.
But a leader who has a totallydifferent makeup?
Is that linear thinker, maybemore of a command and control
style of leadership?
None of those things are goingto work for that person and,
frankly, none of their thingsare going to work for me, but it
doesn't mean I shouldn'trespect them and understand that
.
You know this can be useful forthem.
(25:16):
For me, like whether itactually looks great or not, it
doesn't really matter, but likethere's a lot of shirts that you
just don't feel right in, rightY'all already know I love
zigzagging around, I ask a bunchof questions.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Nate was handing it like a champ, and so I needed to
bring us back to like the realhuman, like inside, internal
experience of being in front ofthe room all the time, because
if you haven't done it, rather alot of it's supposed to be like
.
The number one fear of allpeople is public speaking.
And then there's wackos like meand Nate that do it for a
(25:49):
living and there is an exchangeof energy.
Sure, when I'm up out there,I'm giving it all and I'm happy
and I'm trying to pump up thepositivity and forward thinking
and all that good stuff, but I'malso receiving energy and it
can get heavy at times.
So I wanted to get Nate'sperspective and you're going to
(26:10):
want to get your notepad out forthis especially for his insight
on dealing with situations thatseem to be cursed with the
black magic.
And if you're in construction,you already know you've been in
those job trailers and it's likeman, there's some brujeria in
here, there's some bad juju, andhere's what he's got to say
about that.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, the honest answer is, even though I like
test as an extrovert, which intheory means I rebuild my energy
by being around others whenI've had to do a lot of you know
human work, where I'mfacilitating others, or I mean
really empaths, like feelothers' emotions, which is
really weird sounding right, butthank goodness for Guardians of
(26:51):
the Galaxy they have that likethat character with wacky
antennae.
He's like an empath.
I'm like okay, now peopleunderstand, but like it's
exhausting eventually becausesome people bring big, big
feelings, especially if they'reanger or grief or just pure
sadness that someone's bringingto the table, and you feel your
(27:12):
little bit of that Not all of it, right, but you feel your share
.
I don't use the extrovertrecharge path for that.
The honest answer is I justcrush some Netflix in a dark
room by myself.
Sometimes I have my dog with meand we just chill.
But I need that downtime torecover from it because, even
(27:33):
though it is my nature dude,it's a lot, I think.
Until I realized the strengthsand what I thought were
weaknesses, I became a master atrunning away from the
weaknesses and putting on facade.
So I used to get and I still do, because this is a strength I
like to be able to use in somesituations.
But I'll get feedback of manwhen the room is going crazy,
(27:57):
you just have total poker facelike really calm and especially
kind of middle of my career whenI was successful.
They're like you can't berattled man, that's one of your
strengths, like unflappable, andI'm like, yeah, you have no
idea, but I mastered my facialexpressions and how I carried
myself and some of my bodylanguage, and so this, for me it
(28:19):
was this, and I am a casual,relaxed kind of person.
But I amplified that to be likeI'm unflappable and none of
this hits me, and so I trulyjust built this other persona to
manage it for a long time.
But what I didn't realize wasit still builds up in you.
It doesn't matter what I putout to others.
(28:41):
The piece of me that reacts,the way I react, is still
happening, and so I was stillraking in all their feelings.
And then I was like super chilldude.
And so the boomerang part iswell, when I started realizing
that was actually making me lesseffective, I was like turning
myself into the corporate robot.
I was like this is how I'msupposed to behave.
(29:02):
I went to all the leadershipseminars you were talking about.
Then I was like, uh-oh, well, Iwent too far, right, how do I
shed some of that?
And honestly, I screwed that upa ton, man, I would try to shed
some of those things.
And people would be like, whywere you such a baby in that
meeting?
And I'm like, well, because,dude, I'm trying to like take
off all these masks, right, it'sunfamiliar territory to kind of
(29:23):
get back to you and now I thinkthe boomerangs come full circle
.
I think my biggest tool toanswer your question is to just
put it out there.
I'm feeling some underlyinganger in this room right now.
Fall it out, because otherwisewhat I used to do is I took
everybody else's anger and I gotall stressed out and I mean
(29:44):
transparently, man, it turnsinto like digestive issues, like
pain in your gut and otherthings.
It's like when I just say I'msensing some like anger in this
room that's not been expressed,I actually just like let all
that out back to the group, andso I'm not the only one holding
the anger that I've been feelingfrom the room.
I gave it back to him.
(30:05):
I'm like what are we going todo about it?
And that has helped me a tonI'm going to nerd out for just a
second here, right?
So when I was in, so I worked inhealthcare for about a decade
and one of the things I learnedwas, of all the different
specialties, neuroscience haskind of the least certainty of
what drives what, like our ownminds, which is, you know, in
(30:31):
our brains.
That's where, like emotions getformed, thoughts that trigger
behaviors, all kinds of otherstuff.
It's the least understooddiscipline.
And then what's crazy is I justlearned this a few weeks ago is
the latest supercomputer calledFrontier, that is on the top of
the performance list.
It finally has the exact sameat least theorized processing
capabilities of the human brain.
And so you're like, oh no,robots cut up the humans.
(30:53):
And then you look at what thissupercomputer can do and you're
like I'm carrying thatsupercomputer around in my head.
I mean I think it costs likehundreds of a few hundred
million dollars to build.
Now what's crazy is we knowwhat that supercomputer does
because we put we humans put thesoftware on.
We don't know our softwareright.
And so, like those neurosciencedocs that I worked with, they
(31:16):
would say that over and overagain and over again.
They're like a lot of timeswe're managing how to deal with
symptoms from neurologicalconditions because the science
hasn't caught up yet.
So I got a supercomputer that'sdoing all kinds of stuff, and
so does everybody else in theroom in that possessed trailer.
They do too, and none of usreally understand what software
was installed.
And, dude, you get one programon your laptop that isn't doing
(31:40):
what you think it's doing.
Your life goes crazy.
They update the MicrosoftOutlook, like how do you sort
stuff Like your day's over, likethe fact that you're running
different software in yoursupercomputer than I'm running
in mine, like we got to get itout there right, like otherwise
your system just spins and goescrazy.
So to just keep nerding out onbrain science for a minute, I
(32:01):
just learned in a I wasresearching for a presentation I
just gave where kind of newthinking comes from in the brain
.
Like creative thinking.
I just gave where kind of newthinking comes from in the brain
, like creative thinking.
And it's the process your brainuse actually starts in your
hippocampus, which is the samespace facts from the pastor
store and forward thinking isall it is is novel
(32:25):
reconstructions of stuff that'sin your storage, and so the way
I shared this with the group Ipresented to was one of the
things I do to rechargesometimes is I cook just by
myself for myself, and when Iopen my cupboards in my
refrigerator and I've got CocoaKrispies, marshmallows, ice
(32:46):
cream and some pickles, thoseare my raw materials to create
something new.
That's going to be disgusting,right, and so it's like the
analogy is all right.
Well, that's the stuff I put inmy hippocampus, that bookshelf
of past experiences andknowledge.
What's the coolest thing I cancreate going forward?
It's the same raw materials.
So it's like if you don't havespices and proteins and other
(33:10):
fresh ingredients in yourkitchen, you're never going to
create something delicious andnew.
Same story with what you justsaid.
Like I mean I've read this onlike a couple of different
psychology organization websitesand Cleveland Clinic had a
really good story about it it'slike if you don't have memories
or thoughts stored from pastexperience that allow you to
(33:31):
have new thinking headed in thedirection you want, you're stuck
.
It's like imagine if there's aplace where no one's ever
thought of or seen a smartphone.
So when they're imagining theirfuture, they don't go back into
their data file, theirhippocampus, and be like oh well
, I could use the touchscreenfeatures of a smartphone to
accomplish blah, blah, blah,because they'd never heard of
one.
And so I think that's where thescience supports what you just
(33:54):
said If you don't fill yourmemory banks up with the raw
materials to go forward, you'renever going to go forward.
That gave me a new appreciationfor this concept of like be a
continuous learner.
I'm like, seriously, I got tokeep being a student forever,
but I've been.
Now I've shifted my gear tosaying, like, I'm continuously
putting delicious things in mycupboards, so when it's time to
(34:17):
cook something that reallysatisfies me, I got the raw
materials.
And you're right, man, if allyou've got is, you know, garbage
memory stored, let's face it.
Like the reality is, some of ushave garbage experiences and
garbage tastes stored.
Let's face it, the reality is,some of us have garbage
experiences and garbage tastes.
Even I've got some things thatI love to do, some of that
Netflix stuff that I've beenthrough, probably not so helpful
(34:38):
, but at a minimum I can floodmy memories with other knowledge
and experiences that could beconstructive.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Did you know that the seahorse is my spirit animal?
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah, that's actually so.
This is going to sound like Iknow a lot more than I do, but
it's actually named that becausehippocampus is the first part
of the scientific name for theseahorse.
Yeah, it's literally namedafter the seahorse.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Oh my goodness.
So Nate mentioned continuouslearning, which of course, I'm a
huge, huge, huge advocate for,and it just tickled me around
this continuous improvementstuff, which you know I am one
of the afflicted, and so I saidokay, nate, let's talk about
continuous improvement.
What do you think about it?
Have you been exposed to it?
And what I like about hisanswer is the like.
(35:25):
The real issue for a lot of usis this like pursuit of
perfection or pursuit ofexcellence, and the way he deals
with it is, I think, it's ahealthy way to deal with it.
Check it out.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
I think it's awesome.
One of my favorite slides thatI completely borrowed from
someone else is like I kind ofrefocused it a little bit my own
way I found a GIF of a pit crewchanging tires in real time.
Now it's sped up and you watchit and you're like I want to
learn more about how pit crewswork.
Not because I'm ever going tochange tires at the speed they
(35:56):
do, but there's something in theprocess, in the system.
Those guys communicate with nowords in a noisy environment and
do miraculous things that noneof us think we could.
We don't even think we can moveour hands that fast.
Sweet, I may never work in anindustry where that's remotely
relevant, but the way that theyhave like and it's got all the
(36:19):
sand out of the gears of thatprocess and iterated and
iterated and achieve somethingthat blows your mind, you can
apply that anywhere, and sothat's a cool little piece of
knowledge that I foundinteresting.
And so I went down a littlerabbit hole and I have applied
it numerous times to just belike you know what it might take
the average human 30 minutes tochange a tire, and it takes
these guys, whatever it is, sixseconds.
(36:40):
What's our version of gettingfrom 30 minutes to six seconds.
Right, like it can be done,it's humanly possible.
But, dude, yeah, you can't evensee all the things that are
going on at once, because it'stoo much yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
You know, all this time I've been having fun with
Nate I'm pretty sure you've beenhaving fun with Nate and I
almost like completely forgot toask him about his business,
because he does have a business.
The name of his business isFour Eyes Facilitation.
The link is going to be in theshow notes, so check them out.
Don't go clicking until youhear his description of what it
(37:12):
is that he does, why he does it,because I'm pretty sure after
you hear that you're going to belike man, I need to connect
with this dude because he canhelp us, or I know somebody he
can help.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, sweet, so maybe I'll flip the order.
So foureyesfacilitationcom allspelled out in words, no numbers
is the website.
You can get a detailed view ofwhat I'm up to and I'm saying I
because this is the first timeever.
This is just me and the intentis I'm selling the experience
and the skills I've built thefirst 25 years of my career.
(37:45):
Eventually it may grow, butfoureyesfacilitationcom and what
anyone will find looking onthat site or talking to me is my
whole goal is to offerworkshops, speaking engagements,
training that allow people toaccomplish things that they
never thought they could on theupstream, front end of business
process.
So making sure the vision issupported by a strategy that is
(38:10):
outcome-focused and accessibleto all in the organization, and
so I'll facilitate strategicworkshops, even visioning if
necessary, but then all the waythrough to, we know what we're
going to do this quarter, we'vegot a nice strategy that
differentiates us and we knowhow we win.
Now what are the initiativeswe're going to hit this year?
(38:30):
Let's define them.
And how do you resource thosethings so that not everybody
says, oh my gosh, I got too muchto do and too few resources,
right, like, and then I'm out.
In a nutshell, it's like Ifacilitate alignment.
But a lot of times it's in aspace where we create a lot of
myth around strategy andinnovation and assume it's only
for a special few.
(38:51):
Sure, some of us are moreintuitively in that space.
Some of us are more intuitivelycreative in building new ideas,
but it's all processed thatwith the right person in the
room you can nail, and so youknow I have a lot of proprietary
tools that I've built, which,by the way, I give away free to
all my clients, because I don'tbelieve in charging people for a
tool.
I'm charging them for mypresence.
(39:13):
But yeah, I use those to helpfacilitate people through
structured strategic development, innovating new products and
services, all the way up to allright, we're resourced and ready
to go and the goal is, you know, you got a leadership team.
That's lockstep on all of that,coming out of the section in
the session and lockstep doesn'tnecessarily mean you know you
battled through so thateverybody had consensus on
(39:34):
everything.
Lockstep means we're allcommitted right, like there
might have been something that Iproposed and you had a
counterpoint to it and ourmutual ceo said jesse's idea is
the way we're going to do it.
Walking out of line means I sayI'm in, I'm going to be, I'm
going to to be there with Jesse,just like it was my idea.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Oh baby, this was a good one, and, as usual, I hit
him with the finale question,which was what is the promise
you are intended to be?
And his response does not faildoes not fail.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
I am intended to fulfill the promise of helping
people realize they've gotcapabilities within them they
never knew about and bring themto life so that they can thrive
and honestly, I mean, I knowthis part sounds a little more
on the woo-woo spectrum butbring some joy to their life.
And so I think, in a nutshell,it's bring a lot more joy to
people's life.
But how Help them understandstrengths they never thought
they had, including how tocollaborate with folks of all
(40:39):
different makeups?
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