August 21, 2025 • 65 mins
In this episode of the Learnings and Missteps podcast, Jesse revisits a conversation with Heather Jones of Archer Estimation and Consulting. Heather shares her insights on battling estimator burnout and stress, her journey to starting a business with her husband, Jake, and their lifestyle as digital nomads. They discuss the impact of traveling on reducing work stress, the importance of learning the local language, and how they manage their business on the go. Heather emphasizes the need for personal growth to better serve others and hints at unique approaches to improving the construction industry.
00:00 Introduction
01:01 Meet Ms. Heather Jones
02:47 The Journey to Lima, Peru
05:13 Starting Archer Estimation and Consulting
06:34 Becoming Digital Nomads
08:49 Learning and Adapting Abroad
12:33 Tips for Traveling and Language Barriers
12:55 Shoutout and Time Management Workshop
15:46 Stress and Burnout in Estimating
17:06 Balancing Work and Travel
18:29 Roles and Responsibilities in the Business
22:48 Challenges in the Estimating Industry
32:25 Incentive Structures and Project Performance
34:33 Starting a Business: The Cheat Code
36:35 The Importance of Personal Touch in Business
43:40 Balancing Work and Personal Life
56:07 The Ripple Effect of Positive Change
01:02:26 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm going to do my best to communicate with you
with what I have.
People are very receptive tothat and they appreciate the
fact that you took the time tolearn anything.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
What is going on?
L&m family Back again, and thisis kind of like a refresh, a
reboot, because the last time Ihad an amazing conversation with
our guest it didn't process.
There was some funky what doyou call it?
Technical glitch, which is likethe perfect excuse for me to
have another conversation withher and like it's an extra
(00:35):
special treat because as long asI've known her she has spoken
energy and excitement into mylife.
She just set like a really hightarget for me to aspire to and
I ain't afraid I'm going to takeit on.
She's an intentional worldchanger.
Bottom line.
She changes the world of thepeople that she serves through
her business and the people thatshe comes into contact with,
(00:58):
cause I know I'm experiencing itnow.
Her name is Ms Heather Jonesand she's like the big boss of
Archer Estimation and Consulting.
When I was kind of doing thelittle bit of research that I do
, it was clear, or I wasn'tsurprised to find, that part of
the reason the whole businessstarted was because she wants to
(01:20):
help combat the stress andburnout that estimators
experience.
Because she wants to helpcombat the stress and burnout
that estimators experience,which she knows firsthand and I
think we'll get some insidedetails on it about what it was
that motivated her to start thebusiness.
I know that she wants toimprove mental health and
physical health for folks, but Ialso know that somebody very
(01:43):
close to her in her life is anestimator, so maybe her insight
came from that.
And before we go any further,if this is your first time here,
this is the Learnings andMissteps podcast, where real
people just like you are sharingtheir gifts and talents to
leave this world better thanthey found it.
(02:04):
I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and we about to get to know Ms
Heather Jones.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Ms Heather, how are you, I'm doing really well,
thank you.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Oh you know, having fun, feeling a little spent, but
still like first world problems.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
It ain't that bad.
Amen to that.
I'm in the same boat.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah Well, one, thank you for coming back on after we
spent that whole hour plus thelast time together and having to
do the redo.
And two, I know you're not.
You're feeling a little underthe weather as well.
So last year, what was aboutthree weeks ago four weeks ago
last time we talked?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I think so.
Yeah, I think it's been three,four weeks ago last time we
talked.
I think so.
Yeah, I think it's been threefour weeks.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Okay, and are you in the same country today that you
were three or four weeks ago?
Yes, okay, okay.
Where exactly is that?
I know you said the Pacific.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
We are in Lima, Peru.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Lima Peru Got it Got it.
Why are you in Lima Peru?
Lima Peru Got it Got it.
Why are you?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
in Lima, peru, why not?
Like the longer answer to thatis we spent some time in Cusco
and we knew we wanted to seeother parts of Peru and Lima
just was a great place to getsome time by the ocean, because
it's on the Pacific coast and Iwas craving the ocean.
There is an incredible foodscene here.
(03:27):
The restaurants are amazing andyou can get tons of really good
produce and just food to evencook at home.
And we said you know, there'snot like a ton of touristy
things to do in Lima, but it'llbe a great place to just hang
out for a few weeks, relax andappreciate the ocean.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, and so I know folks out there probably
thinking like man, what anamazing vacation.
But this isn't a vacation, thisis like a lifestyle deal for
you yeah, we slow travel.
Yes, and so you're making thenext jump.
Where are you headed next, orwhat's next on the plan?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
So I think the next stop on the plan is actually
going to be a new continent.
We already had some plans tomeet up with friends in the fall
of this year in Europe, and sowe're going to go take a
vacation, hang out with somefriends and then not 100%
certain where we're going fromthere.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Okay, so you just got the next step outline going to
Europe, going to hang out, andso you just got the next step
outline going to Europe going tohang out, and then when you get
there, you'll decide where thenext stop is.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, we started out with like a four-year itinerary,
and six months in we realizedit's not.
We're not even going to comeclose to sticking to it.
We'd already made two changesby then, because we would either
find out about a new place thatsomeone said, oh, you should
really check this out.
Or we would say, oh well,there's this thing going on in
this city or country that wereally want to experience, so
(04:53):
let's go there next.
And so we just kind of threwthe itinerary out the window a
little bit, and now it's just awish list.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Oh so it's just a list.
We might go here, we might gothere, but it list.
Oh so it's just a list.
We might go here, we might gothere, but it leaves it sounds
like it leaves a lot of room forlike adventure and exploration,
to just say, okay, well, let'sgo check that one out.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
That's exactly it.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Oh my, okay, so I know you started Archer
Estimation and Consulting.
Did you start that business sothat you can bounce around all
over the globe?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Did we start it for that reason?
No, is that a huge perk?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yes, Okay, so I know a little bit of the history,
which you know because I got tointerview too long ago.
But business idea came from areal pain that you got to
observe or see firsthand andopportunities to like help other
people.
There was a work thing that hewas going through and it just
kind of like well, why don't wejust do this?
And then you started doing that.
(05:48):
And then, if we were to map itout, how long was it between
starting the business and thenbecoming nomads?
Speaker 1 (06:02):
We officially started the business in October of 23,
but we didn't actually beginlike be active in it until
December of 23.
So December of 23, and we lefton our nomad journey the first
week of September of 2024.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Oh, wow, okay.
So it was a year from actuallystarting the business.
So what were the signals?
What were the signs that y'allsaw that you responded to, that
said, hey, let's do this digitalnomad thing.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
So we both always have wanted to live abroad, and
there were a couple of times inthe past that we made attempts
at perhaps getting jobs overseasor something like that, but
life and responsibilities justnever quite let it happen.
And so once we were free of allthose responsibilities, the
(06:57):
last one was our last dog, whowe adored.
We adored all of them, but hewas the last one we had.
He died in September of 23.
And we started the businessshortly thereafter and we just
kind of looked at each other andsaid, wait a minute, there's
nothing stopping us.
Now, like, we're locationindependent, we have our own
(07:19):
business, we can actually dothis.
And so we took some time to getthe business up and running
properly and make sureeverything was going to go well,
and we had our feet under usand we said, okay, let's start
planning.
And then we sold all our stuffand left.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I love that, Just the current.
Now I know a little bit moreabout you, which it's like
totally makes sense.
I'm sure your family is likeyeah, Heather's always been kind
of that way.
But I think it's amazingbecause for me, like the
contrast is estimating right,which is a very logical data,
low, like low risk, eliminaterisk, identify risk, and so like
(07:57):
that kind of mindset doesn'tnecessarily in my brain, doesn't
jive with like hell, yeah,let's go travel the world and
like just do this thing.
And so y'all have been bouncingaround for a while.
What have you learned aboutyourself as a result of doing
this traveling around?
I think you've focused on SouthAmerica lately and sounds like
(08:21):
you're headed beyond that.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
What?
That's a great question.
A lot, a whole lot.
So you talk about logic andavoiding risk and identifying
risk in the estimating field.
I do a lot of that in my ownlife.
I'm pretty risk averse, andalways have been.
So there was a lot of analysisbefore we kind of jumped off
(08:47):
this ledge.
So as someone who's very type A,who's logical, who does like a
cost benefit analysis and a riskanalysis on everything I do,
number one, I've learned I haveto go with the flow a little
more.
I'd already like started tolearn that through you know the
previous years of just whathappened in life, but this has
(09:09):
really reinforced it.
I need to let go of control.
I cannot control everything.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I really like discomfort.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Ah, and you didn't think you liked it before.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
I felt like I would, but I wasn't sure, because you
know you go somewhere where theyspeak a different language and,
yes, we spoke a little bit ofSpanish and we're getting a
whole lot better, but it's still.
You're in a situation where youcannot effectively communicate
everything you want tocommunicate and I've always been
a pretty good communicator, soI knew that was going to be a
(09:44):
huge challenge, and I've alwaysbeen a pretty good communicator,
so I knew that was going to bea huge challenge and so that's
(10:04):
been really interesting.
I knew I wanted to experiencedifferent cultures.
I wanted to meet people, kindof where they live and people
who are different and who'vemaybe never been to the US or
never really traveled and allthey know is their home, and
learn about them and their livesand what their country is like.
(10:24):
And, of course, within eachcountry, every region is
different and so, like, forexample, cusco, we learned about
the Quechua language and howthat sort of integrates with
their history and how itinfluences the Spanish they
speak and different things likethat.
So I knew I would becomfortable with that, but I
wasn't sure how I would do withthe inability to communicate as
(10:49):
effectively as I'm used to, butthat's helping me learn to go
with the flow and, as they say,be more tranquilo, because I'm a
little tightly wound and itwouldn't hurt me to be less so.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I love that.
It's interesting because you'vesaid to me that you're a
recovering perfectionist and Iget it right Like same, which
doesn't align with like, yeah,let's go travel the world and we
had an itinerary and now wedon't.
We're just kind of going tofigure it out.
That's not a judgment, I thinkit's.
(11:24):
I think what's exciting aboutthat is it's a signal that
you're expanding your comfortzone, right, like staying on the
edge of it.
And then you I mean that's thething right Is, when people stay
on the edge of their comfortzone, we find out that it's not
as horrible as we thought and,more importantly, that we can
handle this.
And it's like, oh, what elsecould I handle?
(11:51):
What else could I do?
What else could I learn?
You know I love that you talkabout like you're in a country
where the first language isSpanish or some variation of it.
Your first language is English,but you're still able to
communicate.
And the reason that stands outto me is because you know, in
construction and get it, I hearit a bunch how well it.
Just, you know we can'tcommunicate with the guys
(12:12):
because they don't speak Englishvery well.
I'm like you.
We could, absolutely.
I know I can.
Now I've learned a lot ofSpanish, but, like you can, like
, it's easy to dismiss it andsay well, it's because of them.
And in this case you're themRight, you're the ones that
aren't speaking the native, likeif they're going to go to a
(12:34):
country where they don't speaktheir language and maybe
gallivant around the globe for ayear or two, what pointers do
you have for them?
And before we go any further,we're going to do the LNM family
(12:58):
member shout out.
And this one goes to my brother,lance Furuyama, my brother from
LinkedIn.
He sent this note.
He says I was fortunate enoughto join the second session of
the time management workshop andit changed the way that I look
at my calendar.
For those of you that know me,it looks like I'm a master of
(13:20):
organization and planning.
What I didn't realize is that Iwasn't allowing any time in my
calendar for myself or thethings that I want to do.
I promise you that it is worthyour time and attention.
And Mr Lance is talking aboutthe Time Mastery Workshop, which
(13:40):
has now been rebranded and itis the self first time mastery
framework Super, super fancy.
The link will be down there inthe show notes and for everybody
else you already know I lovethe attention, I love the
comments, I love the shares, thestars, all of the things it
(14:01):
gives me an opportunity to shoutyou out in a future podcast
episode.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Be humble.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Ooh humble.
Why humble?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Because one of the first phrases that we learned
was I'm sorry, I only speak alittle Spanish.
Now that phrase has changed toI'm sorry.
Our Spanish is limited, and sowe always start our interactions
with that, like we immediatelysay we're sorry, we don't speak
your language.
Can you help us?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
And I think that goes a long way and every place I've
ever been.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
I've been to several countries now where it was
either Spanish, german,portuguese.
I always learn a few wordsHello, thank you.
Please have a nice day.
Where's the bathroom?
You know basics, but I learnedsomething and I always start
with that, and I've found that,as long as you start with the
(15:02):
attitude of I'm the person whodoesn't speak the language, this
is.
I'm coming into another countryand I don't expect you to speak
my language.
I'm going to do my best tocommunicate with you with what I
have.
People are very receptive tothat and they appreciate the
fact that you took the time tolearn anything and so like
especially if you're justvacationing or you're there for
(15:24):
a short time just learn enoughto show respect.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, oh, I love it Like it's just that.
Be humble, show some respect,make a damn effort to learn
their language and just own it.
I can go off and complain aboutthe situation here in the
States right out on the job site, where, but I'm not gonna.
We're gonna focus on you.
So now I know that the main,I'll say, motivation behind your
(15:53):
business is to like eliminateor minimize the stress and
burnout that estimators aregoing through and estimators out
there.
I really can't think of anestimator that I know that isn't
wound tight and like on theedge, because there they.
There's a lot, there's just alot of stress and pressure.
(16:15):
I don't understand it, cause Inever done that work.
The only thing that I canreally relate to them is how
what I think is like asuperpower is the way that they
bounce back from rejectionbecause, right, like, what's a
good hit rate?
I have no idea, but I know alot of the estimates that they
produce don't win and so like.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
For people like me, that would be extremely
difficult and then there's allkinds of other pressures and so
(16:58):
how much has the travelinghelped with the stress of
estimating and the types ofprojects we choose?
The traveling is actuallyreally good because, especially
for Jake, when he's had a daywhere he's just in an estimate
all day long, it's a complicatedone.
You know he's into numbers upto his ears and problems with
(17:20):
drawings and just differentthings.
When the workday is over it'slike okay, well, let's go walk
along the Malecon by the PacificOcean, let's go take a walk.
You know you get to get out andyou see things you wouldn't
necessarily normally see.
It's not, I don't want to say,the same boring routine of being
at home, but I think manypeople do get into a routine,
(17:44):
and especially if you work fromhome, people don't always leave
the house and they don't alwaysput their phone or their
computer away, oh, I know.
And so they end up working, youknow, oh, I'll get some dinner
and then they'll sit there andafter dinner they sit on the
sofa and they work, and sohaving things to see that are
not normal for us, and you know,we're in places a limited time
(18:07):
so we only have so much time tosee the place where we are.
We have the option to sit onour duffs and not go out and see
things, but that's not whywe're doing this.
So it's motivation to leavework at work and get out and
shift your mind to somethingdifferent and give your brain a
break.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, good, good.
And so I know Jake is like hedoes the estimating right, Like
that's the service that y'allprovide, which I think means you
do everything else.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Am I reading that right?
I do pretty much do everythingelse else.
I handle all the back end stuffof the business.
I handle a lot of the clientinteractions, initial kind of
client contact, that sort ofthing.
I also do pipe tables and helpour clients with admin tasks and
help them organize their filingsystems.
Or we even have one client whoI'm fortunate that they trust me
(19:05):
to help with hiring and so I,you know, screen candidates and
do initial interviews and thingslike that.
And I also can help withbuilding the back end of some
estimating softwares, enteringline items and things like that
to help build the database.
So the longer the business hasbeen around, the more I'm
(19:27):
getting into some of that work.
I will not ever, I don't thinkestimate.
That is not.
Estimators are born.
They're not trained.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I'm not going to argue because it's a thing, like
it is a special skill set, likeI will say this I love, and
(20:05):
specifically in the plumbing andmechanical space, right, I love
understanding the number oflabor units based on MCAA or
whatever it's based on, per thequantity of the different sizes
of materials and how thattranslates into labor.
Like all of that I absolutelylove it.
But I could not do that workevery damn day, like there is
just I think you're right Likethey're born, like that's a
different, that's a different.
Speaking that, no way I wouldlose my mind and I would get
fired, like day two maybe, maybeday three, because I just know
(20:26):
I'm getting nervous Justthinking about it.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I've actually said the same thing to Jake.
I've said I'm so glad I'm notan estimator.
I don't think I'd last verylong, cause my mouth will run
away with me.
I just I've never patient.
It's not my best virtue.
I have a lot more than I usedto have, and I don't want to use
the word stupidity I thinkthat's the most common catch-all
(20:49):
that people use but inattentionto detail, sending out sloppy
work because you didn't check it, forgetting something obvious,
and then you know someone havingto ask for it.
We all make mistakes, but youknow things like that that I see
happening over and over in theindustry.
I would be like you know, Ijust couldn't keep my mouth shut
(21:09):
.
I'd have a smart email ready togo and I'd be done.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Boom, bam, a templated email even Cause it
happens, it happened all thedang time, and so, like this
stress and burnout thing again,I don't think I'm making too big
a leap, but my guess is thatyou got to see it in Jake.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Oh yeah, I sure did.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah.
And then you said, okay, weneed to do this.
It's still going to be theestimator, but you're going to
do it to help other companies,and so when you're talking to a
prospect or a potential client,do they recognize the stress and
burnout in their estimators, oris it more just a capacity
(21:52):
thing and they need more peopleto do it?
Speaker 1 (21:54):
It depends on the size of the client.
Actually, there are some thatdo recognize the estimators
burnout and like the load thatthey're carrying.
There are others who theowner's been doing the
estimating and the business hasgrown to the point that they
just don't have the bandwidthanymore.
But they're not necessarilylarge enough to hire someone
(22:16):
full time yet.
And then there are other peoplewho they have, their estimator
or their small estimating teambut when there are cycles of
larger amounts of bids comingout and just heavier workloads,
that they need some occasionalhelp.
But it's not enough to hiresomebody else.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Got it, got it, okay.
And so where do you think, likeyour personal observation,
where do you think the stressand burnout comes from?
Like into the individual?
Is it the company?
What do you?
What's the mix?
I think it's the industry.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
I really do think it's the industry overall,
because we've seen the shift.
If you look 10 years ago to nowprobably closer to 15, but even
10, you could you would see,for example, the amount of time
that an estimator is given toturn in an estimate, when they
first get the bid package towhen it's due, has shrunk
(23:13):
significantly.
You see projects going out withplans that aren't even 50% and
they don't want a budget, theywant an estimate.
And then you know you've alsogot companies that there are now
so many players and there's abit, there's not a bit.
There is kind of a race to thebottom.
It's like the lowest number iswhere everybody goes and it's
(23:36):
not necessarily okay.
Well, who's going to do thebest quality work?
Who read the scope properly andincluded everything they need
to and isn't going to change,order us, et cetera, et cetera.
It's more just.
You have each company has tobid more in order to win the
work that they need, and soyou've got estimators bidding
(24:00):
way more jobs than theynecessarily did in the past,
because there's more competitionand it's a lot more competitive
and just kind of no-transcriptin the beginning instead of the
(24:45):
cheapest one.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yes, best value over best price.
Yeah, I mean I recognize thatit takes discipline for the
contractor to select on bestvalue over best price and I mean
it'll be my argument tillforever that choosing on best
(25:07):
price I understand, like Itotally understand that we got
there's a budget and we got tostay within budget.
I totally understand that wegot there's a budget and we got
to stay within budget.
I totally understand that.
Now I also know that there aresome, we'll say, decision makers
that will pick the lowest pricebecause they know that their
bonus is attached to thewhatever the financial
(25:30):
performance of the project iswhat.
But what they fail to see, orrather what ignore, is when
they're solely selecting on bestprice, assuming that best price
also isn't best value, becauseit could be.
But it's rare that theconstruction management team is
going to be stressed the hellout managing these people that
(25:54):
were ultra cheap.
And there's a reason thatthey're cheap, right, it's
almost never because they'resuper optimized and super
efficient.
It's almost always becausethey're operating a very basic
system, meaning there's one bossthat, like you said, doing the
estimating and everything else,and they're hiring people as
(26:15):
they can and so they don't havethe overhead that some of the
other companies have that couldprovide a better service, but
there's a price associated withthat and so it creates this
thing, like you said, the raceto the bottom Now you've already
kind of hinted at.
You help them kind of optimizesome of their stuff.
It's not just the estimating.
(26:35):
You can help them get theirestimating department geared up
and ready to scale and expandand so forth.
So what kind of strategies doyou see, or maybe even offer up
to them, in terms of filteringout the abusive situation of
working with those contractorsthat are just dollar penny
(27:00):
focused?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
It depends on the client, and I think that's
something that is alsooverlooked in the industry.
A lot is every business isdifferent.
Their goals are different, howthey want to grow is different,
the niches into which they wantto grow are different, and so
it's very tailored.
(27:21):
If we have one client who's asmall business, they're really
just kind of getting their feetunder them.
They're growing at a good rateand there's, say, a builder, for
example, that they're lookingat a job for, but that builder
has a reputation for beingdifficult in different ways that
don't jive well with how ourclient's business is going right
(27:47):
now.
Or, you know, they don't havethe capacity to deal with some
of those issues.
Then we would have aconversation with them about
that and say, listen, here aresome questions you need to ask.
You know this is what the wordon the street is, whatever and
just be like, make sure you gointo this with your eyes wide
open and let's not just grab itbecause it's work.
(28:10):
And that advice may be differentfor a different client, but we
really do take the time to getto know our clients, get to know
their business, their goals,how they run their crews and
their projects, what they goafter, where their challenges
are and where their skills lie,where they excel, and just kind
(28:31):
of try and take all of that intoaccount with anything.
They consult us on whether it'swhat estimating software would
be best for them to implement orwhether they need to hire a
combination estimator projectmanager, or if they're at a
point where they actually haveenough work that they need both,
or just so many things.
(28:53):
It's hard to say because itreally can be so specific to
each business.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Based on their goals and what their targets are, and
so forth.
So what are the pros and consof this project?
Manager, estimator, dualresponsibility.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
That's a great question.
Jake would be able to give youmore detail than I can, but what
I do know is that some of thepros are if you've got someone
who estimates that job, whentime comes to manage the project
they know exactly what they putin the estimate, they know what
they were thinking, they knowhow they looked at the drawings,
they know what they thoughtmight be missing and they're
(29:29):
going to be able to bring all ofthat institutional knowledge
onto the project management sideof it to help things move
smoothly, we hope.
The advantage to havingseparates is, as long as you
have a good pre-constructionhandoff protocol system,
whatever you want to call itthen your estimator downloads
(29:51):
all of that to the projectmanagement team and the
advantage to having separate isthe estimator then goes back and
focuses on more estimating andwinning more work and the
project manager goes out and issolely focused on all of those
projects and making sure thatthey're running on time, on
budget, that everything is goingwell.
They're managing the clientrelationship.
(30:11):
So in the beginning if youdon't have too much of a
workload for one person to doboth, that can be a really
advantageous hire for somebodybecause they get two jobs and
then as they grow, they cansplit those duties and hire more
people.
Once you're at a capacity whereyou have the jobs, that's just
a little bit too much for oneperson's plate.
(30:33):
That's when you really needthose positions to be separate
and that's what I've seen in ahundred percent.
My opinion.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
But yeah, no, I think you actually point out some
really great points now.
And the reason I'll tell youwhy I asked because the
mechanical contractor used towork with way back in the day.
I think you nailed it right.
It was a matter of like how big, how much volume the company
was bringing through, right Interms of revenue.
I was with the company for 17years.
(31:02):
In those first few years,granted, they were a big company
, but the business unit wasgrowing in San Antonio, so it
was, you know, it was a smallerbusiness in the local market.
Anyways, project managers werealso estimate.
They would estimate theprojects that they would get and
unfortunately it wasn't likeyou described where they did the
(31:25):
estimation, so they understoodthe project.
It was more that they were soinfatuated and convinced that
their estimate was right thatthey weren't willing to
understand what was happening inthe field in terms of
installation and code and allthese Does that make?
Speaker 1 (31:44):
sense?
Yes, it does, and those arethings I think people sometimes
underestimate how important itis for many what are called
office positions to understandwhat happens in the field.
How does that pipe go in theground?
What is the process?
What does everyone on that crewhave to do in order to make it
(32:05):
happen?
And you know what are the waysthose processes can be improved
and what are the things that cango wrong in that ditch that an
estimator who you know went andworked in an office his whole
life and never saw the field,has no idea to anticipate.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Right, right, yeah, that was one big thing, I think.
And also they were heavilyincentivized based on financial
performance of the project,which I think is a great thing
you know, it depends on whereyou're at could take some
tweaking and adjustments thinkis a great thing.
You know, it depends on whereyou're at, could take some
tweaking and adjustments.
But again, what I got to seeand this was this is really, I
think, a function of leadershipis what I saw was these
(32:46):
estimators, slash projectmanagers pursuing and selling
work that was garbage, like withgarbage clients, like just to
get their revenue target for theyear or whatever it was.
I'm like man, these, we, this isabusive.
These people like we don't needto be working with these people
.
They're horrible, we're nevergoing to make money with them.
But they were hitting theirrevenue goal Right.
(33:08):
So it was a.
Again, I think the incentivestructure benefited them to take
on more work because theirincentive was based on hitting
their annual revenue target.
It wasn't connected to projectperformance, and so when project
performance started suffering,well, it was the field's fault,
right, and so does that makesense?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
It does.
And the phrase that comes tomind and I cannot remember where
we first heard this, but wehave picked it up and used it it
was from a supervisor at one ofJake's old positions you can't
eat revenue.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Right, you can only eat larger baby.
You got to make that moneyRevenue, don't do nothing.
Eventually we got a differentleader came in and switched it
up Estimating department,project managers, managed
projects and man, we startedperforming.
We got better clients.
It was a whole transformation.
I don't know, that happenseverywhere and maybe a big part
(34:02):
of it was a transitional thing.
We're like here where we coulddo that, and then we started
getting up work where wecouldn't do that anymore and I
also, again, I think it was theincentive structure that lent
itself to making short sighteddecisions that didn't benefit
the whole company.
It was just one department.
So there's some pointers therefor you folks out there.
(34:23):
You're an owner traveler.
You've been in South America.
What a year now.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Pretty close.
I think at the end of thismonth it'll be nine months.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Oh, wow, okay, and you're still getting business.
How does that work?
What's the cheat code for that?
Because I know people aresaying like, how do y'all do
that?
That's awesome, had been in theindustry for so long and was
involved in organizations andknew a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
when we were thinking of starting the business, there
were just a few phone callsthat we made and said, listen,
well, technically jake made themand said we're thinking about
doing this, do you think it'sgonna fly?
And everybody said, oh my gosh,that's so needed, like, please
do it.
And so by the time we startedthe company, we already had two
(35:22):
clients.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Wow, nice.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
And we've gathered some more as we've gone and, of
course, the way we work is wedon't ever anticipate that we're
going to have the same clientsforever, because we're you know,
we're there to help.
We're not necessarily there tobe a permanent situation.
It's like we come in and helpyou get where you need to be and
then you can make a hire andthen you don't necessarily need
(35:48):
us anymore.
So it's really so far beenmostly word of mouth.
We've had some people find usthrough our website, through
LinkedIn, different things likethat, and I'll be honest, you've
probably noticed LinkedIn hasnot been something I've been
able to be as active on latelyas usual.
(36:10):
And I feel terrible about it,but it's been busy and we've had
a lot going on both personallyand professionally.
So hopefully come August I'mgoing to get back in there and
get back in, because I miss thecommunity so much.
I hate that I've been kind ofout of it.
But yeah, it's really just beenvery organic and there's no
(36:32):
cheat code.
You just got to talk to peopleand for us, I think we're a
little different.
There's so many estimatingcompanies out there who you
speak to, one person who yousign the contract with.
They tell you about theservices you can use or say,
okay, cool, sounds great, andyou sign your contract.
(36:53):
Well, then you're communicatingwith someone else about
everything else and then they'repassing it to someone else and
those people who they're passingthat bid to may or may not be
truly qualified to handle it,but you have no way of knowing.
(37:21):
And I think one of the sellingpoints for us is it's just us,
like Jake.
Jake is the one who's going todo your estimate.
You are going to have access tohim and he's going to be asking
you questions.
The way we say it is.
We work with our clients likewe really do get to know the
people we deal with at ourclients.
We talk to them all the timeand we learn we use their
software, we use their processes.
(37:42):
We don't force like, we don'tsay, oh, we use this software
and that's what you're going toget.
It's like no, what do you use,Help us understand your process,
and so it's.
Yeah, it's a little bitdifferent than some of the
estimating services we'refamiliar with out there and I
think that helps a little bittoo, because we just kind of
(38:04):
talk to people.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I'm incessantly consuming content via audio
books or YouTube aroundentrepreneurship, starting
businesses, dah, dah, dah, dah,dah, right, all of the cause.
There's just so damn much.
I mean, yes, estimating is aheavy load and so is everything
(38:28):
else, and you're doingeverything else Right, and so
what I mean?
You said it wasn't a cheat code, but I think it's absolutely a
cheat code because it'ssomething that I missed and it's
so obvious.
Call the people you know andtell them you're thinking of
starting a business.
Like I swear, I mean, you saidit right.
(38:50):
Jake called a couple people whoknow.
They said, oh, and they'recustomers now.
They're like, yes, that's agreat idea.
Let me know when you started.
So, cause I'm going to havesome help saying similar for me.
I didn't do that until likeafter the first year.
Like it didn't occur to me.
You know cause I'm posting onLinkedIn and different day and I
had biz.
I've been fortunate, I've hadamazing clients and they're
(39:10):
almost always long-termrelationships.
But I had personal friends inthe industry that didn't know.
They either didn't know Istarted a business or they
didn't know what my business was.
Oh, wow, and that's my faultfor not calling them and telling
them like, hey, man, this iswhat I do.
I swear there's still somepeople that think I'm like the
(39:34):
spot.
The podcast is sponsored and Igot all this money coming in
from brand deal.
Like no, this is not asponsored podcast, bro.
Like I do consulting to helppeople improve work in the field
.
Anyways, the cheat code is thatis calling people, like anybody
that you've worked with I'msaying this for the L&M family
member out there anyone thatyou've worked with in the past
(39:56):
five years.
If you're thinking aboutstarting a business, or you
already have started a business,call all of them and let them
know what you're doing, becausethey want to see you win.
They're likely to support youand refer you and they may even
hire you.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
I mean, we didn't expect any of them to
necessarily become clients.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
And they may even hire you.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Jake kept saying oh, no, no, no, for various
different reasons.
And so when we finally reallysat down and had the
conversation and we're like,listen, here's everything.
This is why we really need toconsider this now, he was like,
I don't know, Let me make acouple of calls to people and
just see if they think that ideawould even fly.
So it wasn't even hey, we'restarting a business, it was hey,
(40:53):
we're thinking about this, andI just don't know Can you tell
me if you think this would be amarketable service?
So it was more like marketresearch and feasibility
research than even just callingand saying hey, like whatever.
So we made those.
Well, he made those phone callswith us not having any
(41:13):
expectations other than themsaying, oh yeah, I think that
would be a really good service.
You know, I could understandpeople needing that or oh, I
don't know that anybody wouldhire you for that.
So, yeah, very unexpected thatwe ended up with clients out of
it.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah, I'm saying like I remember the first breakfast,
like I knew, because you knowme all the I did immense amounts
of research and studying beforeI started my business.
Wink, I didn't, I just said I'mgoing to quit my job and I'm
going to figure out how to dobusiness.
That's what I did.
And I had breakfast with some,with people that I work with.
(41:49):
They're friends, but I used towork with them and we're having
breakfast kind of catching up.
They're like man, it's awesome.
And they're telling me aboutlike we've got a leadership
retreat coming up in Kerrville.
No, no, no, I'm sorry, InFredericksburg.
This was three and a half yearsago.
And what we're looking for issomebody to like facilitate the
(42:11):
retreat, but somebody thatreally knows us, that can like
call us on our BS and kind ofgive us some guidance, not just
like facilitate.
And I'm like man, I don't dude.
That's an interestingcombination.
I don't know anybody that coulddo that, or they would even be
willing to go to Fredericksburg.
I don't, it was at a winery,right.
And then one guy says you don'teven want you to do it and I
(42:34):
like, oh well, oh yeah, Icouldn't do that.
Like that's like so again, it'slike this thing that has to
happen.
In your brain they're like waita minute, you gotta let people
know when people want to workwith you, especially if they
worked with you in the past,because they understand the
depth of quality that you canprovide and they'll tell you no,
I don't want your stuff becauseI don't like you.
(42:56):
Or or like, oh my gosh, let meknow, We'll find the, we'll find
.
I've had guys, I've had peopletell me like I know we're going
to bring you in to do something.
Right now is not the right time, but you absolutely we're going
to work with you in the field.
Like, okay, cool man, Justlet's work it out, We'll make it
(43:25):
happen.
But you've got to let them know.
Bottom line, yes.
Now you said that you saw thispath a long time ago and it took
some convincing for our brother, Jake.
What was it that you saw?
That made, like you knew, likethis is.
We need to explore this idea.
What were the things that werecapturing, calling to you about
starting this business?
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Ooh, so many, and I think this kind of gets back to
where we started with theburnout situation and the stress
.
Almost every job that Jake hadin estimating there was burnout
and stress within the department, whether it was one person or
whether it was multiple people,and there were heavy traffic
(44:04):
times when they could really usean extra hand.
They just didn't need it yearround and so many estimators
were working 50, 60 plus hours aweek, you know, working weekend
and I told him I was like therehas to be somebody out there
(44:24):
that can come in and take someof this off of you guys when
there's just too much for theteam.
Like there has to be a solutionfor this.
And he was like there's justreally not.
And of course there were someestimating consultants out there
then.
And you know I'm not one todisparage anyone, I just know
(44:46):
that I heard that the people,the companies that tried them,
did not have good experiences.
The estimates weren'tnecessarily accurate.
The estimates weren'tnecessarily accurate.
(45:08):
So the only exposure that we'dreally had to the potential of
this service were people thatweren't necessarily doing a good
job, and I don't even knowcompany names.
I just know people would say, oh, got to be a better way.
Like is there a way to hire apart-time estimator?
Or you know, again that whole,bring them in during a heavy
work.
I just kept seeing all thesetimes where it's like they just
need an extra hand and theydon't have access to it because
(45:32):
it's not something they needfull time yet, because it's not
something they need full timeyet.
And it just kind of stuck in myhead thinking, and you know,
I'm me, you know me, I'm sittinghere thinking about like these
people who.
What are they missing in theirkids' lives, because they're
having to work on a Saturdaymorning when their kid's out
doing activities or theirchildren are young or you know,
(45:53):
not necessarily just the kids.
But like what are these peoplemissing in their personal lives?
Because their company doesn'thave someone to help take the
load when it's necessary.
And what's that doing to theirmental health long term?
And the other thing that Inoticed is there's a decent
(46:14):
amount of turnover, because whenyou have this situation and
people get burned out andthey've just they're overworked,
they're burned out, they can'thandle the mental load anymore
At some point they're going tothrow their hands up and say I
can't do this anymore, I've gotto stop.
And so then you have theturnover situation.
It's like, oh my gosh, if theycould just bring somebody in for
(46:36):
when they needed them, theywould be able to keep the
experience they have instead ofconsistently having to hire new
people and retrain them.
And that person has to learnthe company, whereas if they
could do this one thing to helpout, they would be able to keep
these employees long term andthey would spend less money on
hiring and training.
And so, again, it's like one ofthose holistic it benefits
(46:59):
everyone If you can just findsomeone that's trustworthy, that
you know will do a good job.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Yeah, oh, my good, I love it Cause it was obvious to
you and that's the beautifulthing, right?
So maybe for the L and M familymembers out there, what's
obvious to you is not obvious toeveryone, right?
Like you're saying, like wait aminute, my husband's working
his butt off and he's miserable.
Maybe he wasn't.
I'm maybe exaggerating, right,like 50, 60, like honestly
(47:33):
exaggerating.
Right Like 50, 60, like,honestly, 50 or 60 hours of work
to me that's easy.
But like what do you mean?
Less than 60 hours?
What's wrong with you?
But 50 or 60 hours today,running my own business piece of
cake, I'm loving it, I'm havingfun.
I've worked 50 to 60, 70, 80hours a week under extreme
(47:54):
stress and under pressure, withno resources in sight to
alleviate any of that pressure.
That's a different deal, even 40hours of that.
And so, like, what you'redescribing is you're watching
Jake there, you know, workinghimself to the bone and he's a
high performer and he has highexpectations of himself, and so
(48:16):
he puts more in than maybe thenormal person would or the
average person would, and sothat strain and pressure takes
out the energy, like takes lifeaway from him, cause by the time
he gets home, not just Jake,but people in general by the
time they get home, they gotnothing left and their
(48:36):
significant other, their kids,their pets, the plants, all the
things are neglected.
And so you're a hundred percentright and it was obvious to you,
like man, if you just had thislittle resource that could come
in and take off some of thatpressure so that those people
maybe they still work 50 hours,but they're not under crisis
(48:57):
mode every minute of every day,their quality of life shoots up.
And so, again, I'm a 50, 60, 70hour guy, but it's different
doing it knowing that I candesign my life in such a way
towards not this high pressuresituation, it's more of Ooh,
there's so much opportunity toserve other people, I'm going to
(49:20):
have to, you know, I'm going tohave to like, not watch,
whatever, right, there's thingsthat I'm willing to sacrifice so
that I can get my brain focusedand do the thinking that's
(49:45):
necessary to deliver the service.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Antonio, that was part of your job.
You went out and did theconference with Megan two years
in a row and you go out and Isee you posting pictures of all
of these connections that you'remaking, not only through the
podcast but in real life withpeople, and so you're not
sitting in an office in front ofa computer burning through
(50:09):
numbers your entire day.
You're out.
You're, you know, hiking withpotential clients, you're flying
somewhere to do a conferenceand meet people.
There's an aspect of life thatwe've started to miss, and I
think the pandemic kind of putit on hyperdrive, because we
were forced to interactvirtually and whether you're an
(50:31):
introvert or an extrovert, weall need social connection and
I'm not going to ever disparagegood relationships between
coworkers.
That's an incredible thing, butyou also need social time
outside of work.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Yes, no, you nailed it Because part of my work is
button pushing.
Right, it's not a lot Like,it's a small, like I don't have
to do timesheets or expensereports.
Where, like that's it, anybodythat wants to recruit me to work
for you full time as long as Idon't have to do timesheets and
expense reports?
You got me, but nobody's gotthat situation.
So we keep the consulting dealgoing on.
(51:10):
Part Part of my work.
Yeah, I got to do invoices.
It's that time of the monththat I got to and I don't really
like it, but it's part of thework.
I got to respond to emails.
I'm not great at it, actually,I'm horrible at it but I got to
do that part of the work.
Part of it is doing my training, consulting, facilitation.
I love that part because it'shigh human engagement, human
(51:30):
interaction Absolutely love thatpart.
Yeah, traveling around andconnecting with people and
building relationships.
I think the magical thing is,because it's my business, I get
(51:50):
to pick who the hell I want togive attention and energy to,
whereas you know the things thatI've learned in the three and a
half years of running mybusiness.
I look back and I'm like man.
I was a pretty media, I was agood employee, but I was a
pretty meat like, mediocreemployee, because what I
understand now in terms of likebusiness development and
marketing, branding andmessaging and like all of that,
(52:10):
had I known that when I was likean employee, I would have been
a freaking outstanding employee,but I would have to apply those
skills and knowledge to peoplethat I don't necessarily
appreciate or like, and sothat's the difference, don't
necessarily appreciate or like,and so that's the difference.
(52:32):
It's like, it's I don't.
There's very few things that Idon't enjoy doing or, more
accurately, there are very fewpeople that I interact with that
I don't like from a businessperspective or delivery of
service that I wouldn't hang outwith at the ballpark or go,
like you said, or go hiking withthem or, you know, barbecue
(52:54):
with them.
There's very few people youknow.
When I had a real job, it waslike, oh man, I hate all of
these people, but I got to go,you know, do the thing, which is
a totally different experiencewhich, like you said, like the
hours, it's fun for me and thework that I get to do, I believe
is precisely the work I wasdesigned to do in terms of
(53:19):
helping people have awakeningsand shift and see things
differently, so that they'rehaving more fun at work, like
you, improving their quality oflife like full picture, not just
their performance at their job,which is not the same as the
jobs that I've had before, likeI had amazing jobs but it was
(53:40):
like 20% amazing, 80% a job,whereas now I have like 80%
amazing, 20% job.
You know, anyways, one qualityI want to make is that personal
touch that you and Jake deliver,cause I would say that's the
unique thing.
Right, there's so much contentout there about scaling and
(54:02):
operationalizing and optimizing.
Right, like all of these things, which I agree could be
valuable If you want to build abusiness that you want to resell
or like that you want to exitout business that you want to
resell or that you want to exitout, over that you want to scale
massively, but I don't thinkthat's the kind of business you
all want to build.
No, sir, you like the personal,the connection, the exchange of
(54:28):
not just service but generosityin service.
Am I wrong?
Speaker 1 (54:31):
You're absolutely right, and that's one of the
reasons people have said oh,when are you going to hire and
when are you going to do this?
We're like we're not.
We're it Like this?
Is it Because A we're reallypicky?
I mean like really picky, andyou nailed it earlier.
Jake puts incredibly highexpectations on himself and he
(54:54):
wants to deliver the bestproduct he's capable of
delivering, and I'm very muchthe same, and we genuinely
become invested in the successof our clients and that matters
a lot to us, and so we don'tever want to bring someone in
and have them working with ourclients and then not be just as
(55:17):
invested as we are, because,like you say, we really are in
it for the service, because thewhole point was oh my gosh, we
can help improve people's livesand maybe, if we're lucky, we
can help improve the industryand sort of, you know, very
small ways, one company at atime.
(55:38):
If we can offer some sort oforganizational help that allows
this company to streamline andspend, you know, 20 minutes less
on each bid, it doesn't soundlike a lot, but it can be huge,
and that's what we're after.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
That's what we're after yeah, oh, my goodness, oh,
I love it and I'm going to saythis, like what I it's kind of,
I have a love hate relationshipwith, that is, I too am here to
transform the industry.
Right, I'm gonna leave thisthing better than I found it.
Now, I'm limited in terms oflike, just being a human I got
(56:17):
to sleep and all these thingsand so that means the like.
The number of people that Iwill be able to touch directly
is limited, but I also know thatwhen I impact people the way I
know I can, that it activatesthem to do the same for the
(56:39):
people in their space.
So the love-hate thing for meis I love knowing that when I
serve somebody to the degreethat I can, that it's going to
activate them and they're goingto serve others.
I love knowing that and thoseothers are going to serve others
, right, those ripples.
What I hate is that I can't seeall of it.
(57:01):
I want to see all of it.
I want to see everybody.
Speaker 1 (57:05):
What do you think about that?
I understand that.
I think it's hard.
It's funny.
You bring up ripples.
That has been sort of arecurring theme throughout my
adult life and people that Ihave found as mentors or even
some of my bosses.
One of my bosses I worked at alaw firm for a while.
She was one of the mostincredible human beings I've
(57:27):
ever met in my life incrediblehuman beings I've ever met in my
life and she did very similarto you, to me, to Jake.
She did everything for who itcould help and she talked about
the ripples and she actuallyonce talked about how you don't
always get to see it, but youknow it's there and I agree,
(57:48):
like not being able to see it issometimes difficult and I think
the reason is especially in ourindustry.
We know some of the problems andwe could get into so many of
them, and I don't necessarilymean just organizational
problems Like look at the mentalhealth crisis that the
construction industry is dealingwith right now.
(58:09):
There is a real human cost tothe inefficiencies in our
industry and it's hard to knowthat ripple is out there but you
don't have a face to know thatthis person benefited from
(58:29):
something that you initiated,however, many steps ago.
We only get to see, you know,the immediate people that we can
see, and that's hard sometimes.
But I genuinely believe that inthe next 10 years we will be
able to see what the ripples ofall of us who have these
intentions because, again, thiscommunity that especially you've
(58:52):
built on LinkedIn, that I'velike, been fortunate to be
accepted into everybody istrying to better the industry
and the world, and when youstart seeing that community grow
, I can't believe that in 10years we won't see those ripples
.
I can't believe that in 10years, we won't see those
(59:13):
ripples.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
Yeah, oh, I'm with you A hundred percent.
Like they're happening and theyget bigger and I just want to
see all of them.
Heather, damn it.
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (59:23):
Okay, I feel a little cheated because you already
know what the Grand Slamquestion is yeah, but you know
what's great, but I have an agein my life where I can't always
remember what I said last week.
You already know what the GrandSlam question is.
Yeah, but you know what's great?
Speaker 2 (59:36):
I have that age in my life where I can't always
remember what I said last week.
That's awesome.
I love it, all right.
Well, let's give it a shot here.
So you started a whole business.
Not only started a business,but transformed your life, sold
everything.
Y'all are out and abouttraveling the world,
experiencing new cultures,committed to improving the
(01:00:00):
quality of life for people andtransforming the industry, and
that's not to say that youhaven't already had major impact
in the people that you'vetouched.
I'm one of them, I know youhave, and so my question to you
is what is the promise you areintended to be?
Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Oh, the promise I'm intended to be.
I really did forget and havenot even thought about this.
I think I would have to say thepromise that I'm intended to be
is to do as much work on myself, push my comfort zone, push my
growth edges and improve myselfand be the best me I can be, so
that I can help others in betterand different ways the more I
(01:00:45):
grow.
Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Oh I, you know I second that sister right.
Oh I, you know I second thatsister right.
You heard me at the beginningsay selfish servant.
I believe a hundred.
Rather, I've discovered it'snot a belief.
I know the more I challengemyself and grow and learn and
all of these things like whichseems like me focused, it helps
(01:01:08):
me serve better in deeper ways.
And so you know type A.
Type a, I think.
What else?
Did you use another description?
recovering perfectionist tightlywound, yeah, all those things,
but you're out there bouncingaround the world, challenging,
expanding that comfort zone.
So there's no doubt that you'reabsolutely going to be deeper,
(01:01:30):
like, more equipped to serveother people and touch them in
the way that you've touched me,ms Heather.
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
And did you have fun, oh my gosh, I had a blast and I
want to tell you the feeling ismutual, because the thing that
you said earlier and it's sofunny that I know you say it all
the time, but what's obvious toyou is not obvious to everyone
you told me that the first timewe met in person and I will not
ever forget that, because theconversation we had was I was
(01:02:02):
like well, yeah, but everybody,and you're like no, not
everybody, and that made beenpart of one of the things that I
chew on in a way to help me bebetter.
I literally say, all right now,is this really obvious to
(01:02:22):
everybody, or am I seeingsomething they don't?
Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
Thank you for sticking it out all the way to
the end.
I know you got a whole lot ofstuff going on and, in
appreciation for the gift oftime that you have given this
episode, I want to offer you afree PDF of my book Becoming the
Promise You're Intended to Be.
The link for that bad boy isdown in the show notes.
Hit it.
You don't even have to give meyour email address.
(01:02:47):
There's a link in there.
You just click that and you candownload the PDF.
And if you share it withsomebody that you know who might
feel stuck or be caught up inself-destructive behaviors, that
would be the ultimate yousharing.
That increases the likelihoodthat it's going to help one more
person.
(01:03:07):
And if it does help one moreperson, then you're contributing
to me becoming the promise I amintended to be Be kind to
yourself, be cool, and we'lltalk at you next time.
I'm going to do my best to communicate with you
with what I have.
People are very receptive tothat and they appreciate the
fact that you took the time tolearn anything.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
What is going on?
L&m family Back again, and thisis kind of like a refresh, a
reboot, because the last time Ihad an amazing conversation with
our guest it didn't process.
There was some funky what doyou call it?
Technical glitch, which is likethe perfect excuse for me to
have another conversation withher and like it's an extra
(00:35):
special treat because as long asI've known her she has spoken
energy and excitement into mylife.
She just set like a really hightarget for me to aspire to and
I ain't afraid I'm going to takeit on.
She's an intentional worldchanger.
Bottom line.
She changes the world of thepeople that she serves through
her business and the people thatshe comes into contact with,
(00:58):
cause I know I'm experiencing itnow.
Her name is Ms Heather Jonesand she's like the big boss of
Archer Estimation and Consulting.
When I was kind of doing thelittle bit of research that I do
, it was clear, or I wasn'tsurprised to find, that part of
the reason the whole businessstarted was because she wants to
(01:20):
help combat the stress andburnout that estimators
experience.
Because she wants to helpcombat the stress and burnout
that estimators experience,which she knows firsthand and I
think we'll get some insidedetails on it about what it was
that motivated her to start thebusiness.
I know that she wants toimprove mental health and
physical health for folks, but Ialso know that somebody very
(01:43):
close to her in her life is anestimator, so maybe her insight
came from that.
And before we go any further,if this is your first time here,
this is the Learnings andMissteps podcast, where real
people just like you are sharingtheir gifts and talents to
leave this world better thanthey found it.
(02:04):
I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and we about to get to know Ms
Heather Jones.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Ms Heather, how are you, I'm doing really well,
thank you.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Oh you know, having fun, feeling a little spent, but
still like first world problems.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
It ain't that bad.
Amen to that.
I'm in the same boat.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah Well, one, thank you for coming back on after we
spent that whole hour plus thelast time together and having to
do the redo.
And two, I know you're not.
You're feeling a little underthe weather as well.
So last year, what was aboutthree weeks ago four weeks ago
last time we talked?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I think so.
Yeah, I think it's been three,four weeks ago last time we
talked.
I think so.
Yeah, I think it's been threefour weeks.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Okay, and are you in the same country today that you
were three or four weeks ago?
Yes, okay, okay.
Where exactly is that?
I know you said the Pacific.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
We are in Lima, Peru.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Lima Peru Got it Got it.
Why are you in Lima Peru?
Lima Peru Got it Got it.
Why are you?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
in Lima, peru, why not?
Like the longer answer to thatis we spent some time in Cusco
and we knew we wanted to seeother parts of Peru and Lima
just was a great place to getsome time by the ocean, because
it's on the Pacific coast and Iwas craving the ocean.
There is an incredible foodscene here.
(03:27):
The restaurants are amazing andyou can get tons of really good
produce and just food to evencook at home.
And we said you know, there'snot like a ton of touristy
things to do in Lima, but it'llbe a great place to just hang
out for a few weeks, relax andappreciate the ocean.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, and so I know folks out there probably
thinking like man, what anamazing vacation.
But this isn't a vacation, thisis like a lifestyle deal for
you yeah, we slow travel.
Yes, and so you're making thenext jump.
Where are you headed next, orwhat's next on the plan?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
So I think the next stop on the plan is actually
going to be a new continent.
We already had some plans tomeet up with friends in the fall
of this year in Europe, and sowe're going to go take a
vacation, hang out with somefriends and then not 100%
certain where we're going fromthere.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Okay, so you just got the next step outline going to
Europe, going to hang out, andso you just got the next step
outline going to Europe going tohang out, and then when you get
there, you'll decide where thenext stop is.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, we started out with like a four-year itinerary,
and six months in we realizedit's not.
We're not even going to comeclose to sticking to it.
We'd already made two changesby then, because we would either
find out about a new place thatsomeone said, oh, you should
really check this out.
Or we would say, oh well,there's this thing going on in
this city or country that wereally want to experience, so
(04:53):
let's go there next.
And so we just kind of threwthe itinerary out the window a
little bit, and now it's just awish list.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Oh so it's just a list.
We might go here, we might gothere, but it list.
Oh so it's just a list.
We might go here, we might gothere, but it leaves it sounds
like it leaves a lot of room forlike adventure and exploration,
to just say, okay, well, let'sgo check that one out.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
That's exactly it.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Oh my, okay, so I know you started Archer
Estimation and Consulting.
Did you start that business sothat you can bounce around all
over the globe?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Did we start it for that reason?
No, is that a huge perk?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yes, Okay, so I know a little bit of the history,
which you know because I got tointerview too long ago.
But business idea came from areal pain that you got to
observe or see firsthand andopportunities to like help other
people.
There was a work thing that hewas going through and it just
kind of like well, why don't wejust do this?
And then you started doing that.
(05:48):
And then, if we were to map itout, how long was it between
starting the business and thenbecoming nomads?
Speaker 1 (06:02):
We officially started the business in October of 23,
but we didn't actually beginlike be active in it until
December of 23.
So December of 23, and we lefton our nomad journey the first
week of September of 2024.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Oh, wow, okay.
So it was a year from actuallystarting the business.
So what were the signals?
What were the signs that y'allsaw that you responded to, that
said, hey, let's do this digitalnomad thing.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
So we both always have wanted to live abroad, and
there were a couple of times inthe past that we made attempts
at perhaps getting jobs overseasor something like that, but
life and responsibilities justnever quite let it happen.
And so once we were free of allthose responsibilities, the
(06:57):
last one was our last dog, whowe adored.
We adored all of them, but hewas the last one we had.
He died in September of 23.
And we started the businessshortly thereafter and we just
kind of looked at each other andsaid, wait a minute, there's
nothing stopping us.
Now, like, we're locationindependent, we have our own
(07:19):
business, we can actually dothis.
And so we took some time to getthe business up and running
properly and make sureeverything was going to go well,
and we had our feet under usand we said, okay, let's start
planning.
And then we sold all our stuffand left.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I love that, Just the current.
Now I know a little bit moreabout you, which it's like
totally makes sense.
I'm sure your family is likeyeah, Heather's always been kind
of that way.
But I think it's amazingbecause for me, like the
contrast is estimating right,which is a very logical data,
low, like low risk, eliminaterisk, identify risk, and so like
(07:57):
that kind of mindset doesn'tnecessarily in my brain, doesn't
jive with like hell, yeah,let's go travel the world and
like just do this thing.
And so y'all have been bouncingaround for a while.
What have you learned aboutyourself as a result of doing
this traveling around?
I think you've focused on SouthAmerica lately and sounds like
(08:21):
you're headed beyond that.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
What?
That's a great question.
A lot, a whole lot.
So you talk about logic andavoiding risk and identifying
risk in the estimating field.
I do a lot of that in my ownlife.
I'm pretty risk averse, andalways have been.
So there was a lot of analysisbefore we kind of jumped off
(08:47):
this ledge.
So as someone who's very type A,who's logical, who does like a
cost benefit analysis and a riskanalysis on everything I do,
number one, I've learned I haveto go with the flow a little
more.
I'd already like started tolearn that through you know the
previous years of just whathappened in life, but this has
(09:09):
really reinforced it.
I need to let go of control.
I cannot control everything.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I really like discomfort.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Ah, and you didn't think you liked it before.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
I felt like I would, but I wasn't sure, because you
know you go somewhere where theyspeak a different language and,
yes, we spoke a little bit ofSpanish and we're getting a
whole lot better, but it's still.
You're in a situation where youcannot effectively communicate
everything you want tocommunicate and I've always been
a pretty good communicator, soI knew that was going to be a
(09:44):
huge challenge, and I've alwaysbeen a pretty good communicator,
so I knew that was going to bea huge challenge and so that's
(10:04):
been really interesting.
I knew I wanted to experiencedifferent cultures.
I wanted to meet people, kindof where they live and people
who are different and who'vemaybe never been to the US or
never really traveled and allthey know is their home, and
learn about them and their livesand what their country is like.
(10:24):
And, of course, within eachcountry, every region is
different and so, like, forexample, cusco, we learned about
the Quechua language and howthat sort of integrates with
their history and how itinfluences the Spanish they
speak and different things likethat.
So I knew I would becomfortable with that, but I
wasn't sure how I would do withthe inability to communicate as
(10:49):
effectively as I'm used to, butthat's helping me learn to go
with the flow and, as they say,be more tranquilo, because I'm a
little tightly wound and itwouldn't hurt me to be less so.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I love that.
It's interesting because you'vesaid to me that you're a
recovering perfectionist and Iget it right Like same, which
doesn't align with like, yeah,let's go travel the world and we
had an itinerary and now wedon't.
We're just kind of going tofigure it out.
That's not a judgment, I thinkit's.
(11:24):
I think what's exciting aboutthat is it's a signal that
you're expanding your comfortzone, right, like staying on the
edge of it.
And then you I mean that's thething right Is, when people stay
on the edge of their comfortzone, we find out that it's not
as horrible as we thought and,more importantly, that we can
handle this.
And it's like, oh, what elsecould I handle?
(11:51):
What else could I do?
What else could I learn?
You know I love that you talkabout like you're in a country
where the first language isSpanish or some variation of it.
Your first language is English,but you're still able to
communicate.
And the reason that stands outto me is because you know, in
construction and get it, I hearit a bunch how well it.
Just, you know we can'tcommunicate with the guys
(12:12):
because they don't speak Englishvery well.
I'm like you.
We could, absolutely.
I know I can.
Now I've learned a lot ofSpanish, but, like you can, like
, it's easy to dismiss it andsay well, it's because of them.
And in this case you're themRight, you're the ones that
aren't speaking the native, likeif they're going to go to a
(12:34):
country where they don't speaktheir language and maybe
gallivant around the globe for ayear or two, what pointers do
you have for them?
And before we go any further,we're going to do the LNM family
(12:58):
member shout out.
And this one goes to my brother,lance Furuyama, my brother from
LinkedIn.
He sent this note.
He says I was fortunate enoughto join the second session of
the time management workshop andit changed the way that I look
at my calendar.
For those of you that know me,it looks like I'm a master of
(13:20):
organization and planning.
What I didn't realize is that Iwasn't allowing any time in my
calendar for myself or thethings that I want to do.
I promise you that it is worthyour time and attention.
And Mr Lance is talking aboutthe Time Mastery Workshop, which
(13:40):
has now been rebranded and itis the self first time mastery
framework Super, super fancy.
The link will be down there inthe show notes and for everybody
else you already know I lovethe attention, I love the
comments, I love the shares, thestars, all of the things it
(14:01):
gives me an opportunity to shoutyou out in a future podcast
episode.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Be humble.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Ooh humble.
Why humble?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Because one of the first phrases that we learned
was I'm sorry, I only speak alittle Spanish.
Now that phrase has changed toI'm sorry.
Our Spanish is limited, and sowe always start our interactions
with that, like we immediatelysay we're sorry, we don't speak
your language.
Can you help us?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
And I think that goes a long way and every place I've
ever been.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
I've been to several countries now where it was
either Spanish, german,portuguese.
I always learn a few wordsHello, thank you.
Please have a nice day.
Where's the bathroom?
You know basics, but I learnedsomething and I always start
with that, and I've found that,as long as you start with the
(15:02):
attitude of I'm the person whodoesn't speak the language, this
is.
I'm coming into another countryand I don't expect you to speak
my language.
I'm going to do my best tocommunicate with you with what I
have.
People are very receptive tothat and they appreciate the
fact that you took the time tolearn anything and so like
especially if you're justvacationing or you're there for
(15:24):
a short time just learn enoughto show respect.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, oh, I love it Like it's just that.
Be humble, show some respect,make a damn effort to learn
their language and just own it.
I can go off and complain aboutthe situation here in the
States right out on the job site, where, but I'm not gonna.
We're gonna focus on you.
So now I know that the main,I'll say, motivation behind your
(15:53):
business is to like eliminateor minimize the stress and
burnout that estimators aregoing through and estimators out
there.
I really can't think of anestimator that I know that isn't
wound tight and like on theedge, because there they.
There's a lot, there's just alot of stress and pressure.
(16:15):
I don't understand it, cause Inever done that work.
The only thing that I canreally relate to them is how
what I think is like asuperpower is the way that they
bounce back from rejectionbecause, right, like, what's a
good hit rate?
I have no idea, but I know alot of the estimates that they
produce don't win and so like.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
For people like me, that would be extremely
difficult and then there's allkinds of other pressures and so
(16:58):
how much has the travelinghelped with the stress of
estimating and the types ofprojects we choose?
The traveling is actuallyreally good because, especially
for Jake, when he's had a daywhere he's just in an estimate
all day long, it's a complicatedone.
You know he's into numbers upto his ears and problems with
(17:20):
drawings and just differentthings.
When the workday is over it'slike okay, well, let's go walk
along the Malecon by the PacificOcean, let's go take a walk.
You know you get to get out andyou see things you wouldn't
necessarily normally see.
It's not, I don't want to say,the same boring routine of being
at home, but I think manypeople do get into a routine,
(17:44):
and especially if you work fromhome, people don't always leave
the house and they don't alwaysput their phone or their
computer away, oh, I know.
And so they end up working, youknow, oh, I'll get some dinner
and then they'll sit there andafter dinner they sit on the
sofa and they work, and sohaving things to see that are
not normal for us, and you know,we're in places a limited time
(18:07):
so we only have so much time tosee the place where we are.
We have the option to sit onour duffs and not go out and see
things, but that's not whywe're doing this.
So it's motivation to leavework at work and get out and
shift your mind to somethingdifferent and give your brain a
break.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, good, good.
And so I know Jake is like hedoes the estimating right, Like
that's the service that y'allprovide, which I think means you
do everything else.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Am I reading that right?
I do pretty much do everythingelse else.
I handle all the back end stuffof the business.
I handle a lot of the clientinteractions, initial kind of
client contact, that sort ofthing.
I also do pipe tables and helpour clients with admin tasks and
help them organize their filingsystems.
Or we even have one client whoI'm fortunate that they trust me
(19:05):
to help with hiring and so I,you know, screen candidates and
do initial interviews and thingslike that.
And I also can help withbuilding the back end of some
estimating softwares, enteringline items and things like that
to help build the database.
So the longer the business hasbeen around, the more I'm
(19:27):
getting into some of that work.
I will not ever, I don't thinkestimate.
That is not.
Estimators are born.
They're not trained.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I'm not going to argue because it's a thing, like
it is a special skill set, likeI will say this I love, and
(20:05):
specifically in the plumbing andmechanical space, right, I love
understanding the number oflabor units based on MCAA or
whatever it's based on, per thequantity of the different sizes
of materials and how thattranslates into labor.
Like all of that I absolutelylove it.
But I could not do that workevery damn day, like there is
just I think you're right Likethey're born, like that's a
different, that's a different.
Speaking that, no way I wouldlose my mind and I would get
fired, like day two maybe, maybeday three, because I just know
(20:26):
I'm getting nervous Justthinking about it.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I've actually said the same thing to Jake.
I've said I'm so glad I'm notan estimator.
I don't think I'd last verylong, cause my mouth will run
away with me.
I just I've never patient.
It's not my best virtue.
I have a lot more than I usedto have, and I don't want to use
the word stupidity I thinkthat's the most common catch-all
(20:49):
that people use but inattentionto detail, sending out sloppy
work because you didn't check it, forgetting something obvious,
and then you know someone havingto ask for it.
We all make mistakes, but youknow things like that that I see
happening over and over in theindustry.
I would be like you know, Ijust couldn't keep my mouth shut
(21:09):
.
I'd have a smart email ready togo and I'd be done.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Boom, bam, a templated email even Cause it
happens, it happened all thedang time, and so, like this
stress and burnout thing again,I don't think I'm making too big
a leap, but my guess is thatyou got to see it in Jake.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Oh yeah, I sure did.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah.
And then you said, okay, weneed to do this.
It's still going to be theestimator, but you're going to
do it to help other companies,and so when you're talking to a
prospect or a potential client,do they recognize the stress and
burnout in their estimators, oris it more just a capacity
(21:52):
thing and they need more peopleto do it?
Speaker 1 (21:54):
It depends on the size of the client.
Actually, there are some thatdo recognize the estimators
burnout and like the load thatthey're carrying.
There are others who theowner's been doing the
estimating and the business hasgrown to the point that they
just don't have the bandwidthanymore.
But they're not necessarilylarge enough to hire someone
(22:16):
full time yet.
And then there are other peoplewho they have, their estimator
or their small estimating teambut when there are cycles of
larger amounts of bids comingout and just heavier workloads,
that they need some occasionalhelp.
But it's not enough to hiresomebody else.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Got it, got it, okay.
And so where do you think, likeyour personal observation,
where do you think the stressand burnout comes from?
Like into the individual?
Is it the company?
What do you?
What's the mix?
I think it's the industry.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
I really do think it's the industry overall,
because we've seen the shift.
If you look 10 years ago to nowprobably closer to 15, but even
10, you could you would see,for example, the amount of time
that an estimator is given toturn in an estimate, when they
first get the bid package towhen it's due, has shrunk
(23:13):
significantly.
You see projects going out withplans that aren't even 50% and
they don't want a budget, theywant an estimate.
And then you know you've alsogot companies that there are now
so many players and there's abit, there's not a bit.
There is kind of a race to thebottom.
It's like the lowest number iswhere everybody goes and it's
(23:36):
not necessarily okay.
Well, who's going to do thebest quality work?
Who read the scope properly andincluded everything they need
to and isn't going to change,order us, et cetera, et cetera.
It's more just.
You have each company has tobid more in order to win the
work that they need, and soyou've got estimators bidding
(24:00):
way more jobs than theynecessarily did in the past,
because there's more competitionand it's a lot more competitive
and just kind of no-transcriptin the beginning instead of the
(24:45):
cheapest one.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yes, best value over best price.
Yeah, I mean I recognize thatit takes discipline for the
contractor to select on bestvalue over best price and I mean
it'll be my argument tillforever that choosing on best
(25:07):
price I understand, like Itotally understand that we got
there's a budget and we got tostay within budget.
I totally understand that wegot there's a budget and we got
to stay within budget.
I totally understand that.
Now I also know that there aresome, we'll say, decision makers
that will pick the lowest pricebecause they know that their
bonus is attached to thewhatever the financial
(25:30):
performance of the project iswhat.
But what they fail to see, orrather what ignore, is when
they're solely selecting on bestprice, assuming that best price
also isn't best value, becauseit could be.
But it's rare that theconstruction management team is
going to be stressed the hellout managing these people that
(25:54):
were ultra cheap.
And there's a reason thatthey're cheap, right, it's
almost never because they'resuper optimized and super
efficient.
It's almost always becausethey're operating a very basic
system, meaning there's one bossthat, like you said, doing the
estimating and everything else,and they're hiring people as
(26:15):
they can and so they don't havethe overhead that some of the
other companies have that couldprovide a better service, but
there's a price associated withthat and so it creates this
thing, like you said, the raceto the bottom Now you've already
kind of hinted at.
You help them kind of optimizesome of their stuff.
It's not just the estimating.
(26:35):
You can help them get theirestimating department geared up
and ready to scale and expandand so forth.
So what kind of strategies doyou see, or maybe even offer up
to them, in terms of filteringout the abusive situation of
working with those contractorsthat are just dollar penny
(27:00):
focused?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
It depends on the client, and I think that's
something that is alsooverlooked in the industry.
A lot is every business isdifferent.
Their goals are different, howthey want to grow is different,
the niches into which they wantto grow are different, and so
it's very tailored.
(27:21):
If we have one client who's asmall business, they're really
just kind of getting their feetunder them.
They're growing at a good rateand there's, say, a builder, for
example, that they're lookingat a job for, but that builder
has a reputation for beingdifficult in different ways that
don't jive well with how ourclient's business is going right
(27:47):
now.
Or, you know, they don't havethe capacity to deal with some
of those issues.
Then we would have aconversation with them about
that and say, listen, here aresome questions you need to ask.
You know this is what the wordon the street is, whatever and
just be like, make sure you gointo this with your eyes wide
open and let's not just grab itbecause it's work.
(28:10):
And that advice may be differentfor a different client, but we
really do take the time to getto know our clients, get to know
their business, their goals,how they run their crews and
their projects, what they goafter, where their challenges
are and where their skills lie,where they excel, and just kind
(28:31):
of try and take all of that intoaccount with anything.
They consult us on whether it'swhat estimating software would
be best for them to implement orwhether they need to hire a
combination estimator projectmanager, or if they're at a
point where they actually haveenough work that they need both,
or just so many things.
(28:53):
It's hard to say because itreally can be so specific to
each business.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Based on their goals and what their targets are, and
so forth.
So what are the pros and consof this project?
Manager, estimator, dualresponsibility.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
That's a great question.
Jake would be able to give youmore detail than I can, but what
I do know is that some of thepros are if you've got someone
who estimates that job, whentime comes to manage the project
they know exactly what they putin the estimate, they know what
they were thinking, they knowhow they looked at the drawings,
they know what they thoughtmight be missing and they're
(29:29):
going to be able to bring all ofthat institutional knowledge
onto the project management sideof it to help things move
smoothly, we hope.
The advantage to havingseparates is, as long as you
have a good pre-constructionhandoff protocol system,
whatever you want to call itthen your estimator downloads
(29:51):
all of that to the projectmanagement team and the
advantage to having separate isthe estimator then goes back and
focuses on more estimating andwinning more work and the
project manager goes out and issolely focused on all of those
projects and making sure thatthey're running on time, on
budget, that everything is goingwell.
They're managing the clientrelationship.
(30:11):
So in the beginning if youdon't have too much of a
workload for one person to doboth, that can be a really
advantageous hire for somebodybecause they get two jobs and
then as they grow, they cansplit those duties and hire more
people.
Once you're at a capacity whereyou have the jobs, that's just
a little bit too much for oneperson's plate.
(30:33):
That's when you really needthose positions to be separate
and that's what I've seen in ahundred percent.
My opinion.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
But yeah, no, I think you actually point out some
really great points now.
And the reason I'll tell youwhy I asked because the
mechanical contractor used towork with way back in the day.
I think you nailed it right.
It was a matter of like how big, how much volume the company
was bringing through, right Interms of revenue.
I was with the company for 17years.
(31:02):
In those first few years,granted, they were a big company
, but the business unit wasgrowing in San Antonio, so it
was, you know, it was a smallerbusiness in the local market.
Anyways, project managers werealso estimate.
They would estimate theprojects that they would get and
unfortunately it wasn't likeyou described where they did the
(31:25):
estimation, so they understoodthe project.
It was more that they were soinfatuated and convinced that
their estimate was right thatthey weren't willing to
understand what was happening inthe field in terms of
installation and code and allthese Does that make?
Speaker 1 (31:44):
sense?
Yes, it does, and those arethings I think people sometimes
underestimate how important itis for many what are called
office positions to understandwhat happens in the field.
How does that pipe go in theground?
What is the process?
What does everyone on that crewhave to do in order to make it
(32:05):
happen?
And you know what are the waysthose processes can be improved
and what are the things that cango wrong in that ditch that an
estimator who you know went andworked in an office his whole
life and never saw the field,has no idea to anticipate.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Right, right, yeah, that was one big thing, I think.
And also they were heavilyincentivized based on financial
performance of the project,which I think is a great thing
you know, it depends on whereyou're at could take some
tweaking and adjustments thinkis a great thing.
You know, it depends on whereyou're at, could take some
tweaking and adjustments.
But again, what I got to seeand this was this is really, I
think, a function of leadershipis what I saw was these
(32:46):
estimators, slash projectmanagers pursuing and selling
work that was garbage, like withgarbage clients, like just to
get their revenue target for theyear or whatever it was.
I'm like man, these, we, this isabusive.
These people like we don't needto be working with these people
.
They're horrible, we're nevergoing to make money with them.
But they were hitting theirrevenue goal Right.
(33:08):
So it was a.
Again, I think the incentivestructure benefited them to take
on more work because theirincentive was based on hitting
their annual revenue target.
It wasn't connected to projectperformance, and so when project
performance started suffering,well, it was the field's fault,
right, and so does that makesense?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
It does.
And the phrase that comes tomind and I cannot remember where
we first heard this, but wehave picked it up and used it it
was from a supervisor at one ofJake's old positions you can't
eat revenue.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Right, you can only eat larger baby.
You got to make that moneyRevenue, don't do nothing.
Eventually we got a differentleader came in and switched it
up Estimating department,project managers, managed
projects and man, we startedperforming.
We got better clients.
It was a whole transformation.
I don't know, that happenseverywhere and maybe a big part
(34:02):
of it was a transitional thing.
We're like here where we coulddo that, and then we started
getting up work where wecouldn't do that anymore and I
also, again, I think it was theincentive structure that lent
itself to making short sighteddecisions that didn't benefit
the whole company.
It was just one department.
So there's some pointers therefor you folks out there.
(34:23):
You're an owner traveler.
You've been in South America.
What a year now.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Pretty close.
I think at the end of thismonth it'll be nine months.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Oh, wow, okay, and you're still getting business.
How does that work?
What's the cheat code for that?
Because I know people aresaying like, how do y'all do
that?
That's awesome, had been in theindustry for so long and was
involved in organizations andknew a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
when we were thinking of starting the business, there
were just a few phone callsthat we made and said, listen,
well, technically jake made themand said we're thinking about
doing this, do you think it'sgonna fly?
And everybody said, oh my gosh,that's so needed, like, please
do it.
And so by the time we startedthe company, we already had two
(35:22):
clients.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Wow, nice.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
And we've gathered some more as we've gone and, of
course, the way we work is wedon't ever anticipate that we're
going to have the same clientsforever, because we're you know,
we're there to help.
We're not necessarily there tobe a permanent situation.
It's like we come in and helpyou get where you need to be and
then you can make a hire andthen you don't necessarily need
(35:48):
us anymore.
So it's really so far beenmostly word of mouth.
We've had some people find usthrough our website, through
LinkedIn, different things likethat, and I'll be honest, you've
probably noticed LinkedIn hasnot been something I've been
able to be as active on latelyas usual.
(36:10):
And I feel terrible about it,but it's been busy and we've had
a lot going on both personallyand professionally.
So hopefully come August I'mgoing to get back in there and
get back in, because I miss thecommunity so much.
I hate that I've been kind ofout of it.
But yeah, it's really just beenvery organic and there's no
(36:32):
cheat code.
You just got to talk to peopleand for us, I think we're a
little different.
There's so many estimatingcompanies out there who you
speak to, one person who yousign the contract with.
They tell you about theservices you can use or say,
okay, cool, sounds great, andyou sign your contract.
(36:53):
Well, then you're communicatingwith someone else about
everything else and then they'repassing it to someone else and
those people who they're passingthat bid to may or may not be
truly qualified to handle it,but you have no way of knowing.
(37:21):
And I think one of the sellingpoints for us is it's just us,
like Jake.
Jake is the one who's going todo your estimate.
You are going to have access tohim and he's going to be asking
you questions.
The way we say it is.
We work with our clients likewe really do get to know the
people we deal with at ourclients.
We talk to them all the timeand we learn we use their
software, we use their processes.
(37:42):
We don't force like, we don'tsay, oh, we use this software
and that's what you're going toget.
It's like no, what do you use,Help us understand your process,
and so it's.
Yeah, it's a little bitdifferent than some of the
estimating services we'refamiliar with out there and I
think that helps a little bittoo, because we just kind of
(38:04):
talk to people.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I'm incessantly consuming content via audio
books or YouTube aroundentrepreneurship, starting
businesses, dah, dah, dah, dah,dah, right, all of the cause.
There's just so damn much.
I mean, yes, estimating is aheavy load and so is everything
(38:28):
else, and you're doingeverything else Right, and so
what I mean?
You said it wasn't a cheat code, but I think it's absolutely a
cheat code because it'ssomething that I missed and it's
so obvious.
Call the people you know andtell them you're thinking of
starting a business.
Like I swear, I mean, you saidit right.
(38:50):
Jake called a couple people whoknow.
They said, oh, and they'recustomers now.
They're like, yes, that's agreat idea.
Let me know when you started.
So, cause I'm going to havesome help saying similar for me.
I didn't do that until likeafter the first year.
Like it didn't occur to me.
You know cause I'm posting onLinkedIn and different day and I
had biz.
I've been fortunate, I've hadamazing clients and they're
(39:10):
almost always long-termrelationships.
But I had personal friends inthe industry that didn't know.
They either didn't know Istarted a business or they
didn't know what my business was.
Oh, wow, and that's my faultfor not calling them and telling
them like, hey, man, this iswhat I do.
I swear there's still somepeople that think I'm like the
(39:34):
spot.
The podcast is sponsored and Igot all this money coming in
from brand deal.
Like no, this is not asponsored podcast, bro.
Like I do consulting to helppeople improve work in the field
.
Anyways, the cheat code is thatis calling people, like anybody
that you've worked with I'msaying this for the L&M family
member out there anyone thatyou've worked with in the past
(39:56):
five years.
If you're thinking aboutstarting a business, or you
already have started a business,call all of them and let them
know what you're doing, becausethey want to see you win.
They're likely to support youand refer you and they may even
hire you.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
I mean, we didn't expect any of them to
necessarily become clients.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
And they may even hire you.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Jake kept saying oh, no, no, no, for various
different reasons.
And so when we finally reallysat down and had the
conversation and we're like,listen, here's everything.
This is why we really need toconsider this now, he was like,
I don't know, Let me make acouple of calls to people and
just see if they think that ideawould even fly.
So it wasn't even hey, we'restarting a business, it was hey,
(40:53):
we're thinking about this, andI just don't know Can you tell
me if you think this would be amarketable service?
So it was more like marketresearch and feasibility
research than even just callingand saying hey, like whatever.
So we made those.
Well, he made those phone callswith us not having any
(41:13):
expectations other than themsaying, oh yeah, I think that
would be a really good service.
You know, I could understandpeople needing that or oh, I
don't know that anybody wouldhire you for that.
So, yeah, very unexpected thatwe ended up with clients out of
it.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah, I'm saying like I remember the first breakfast,
like I knew, because you knowme all the I did immense amounts
of research and studying beforeI started my business.
Wink, I didn't, I just said I'mgoing to quit my job and I'm
going to figure out how to dobusiness.
That's what I did.
And I had breakfast with some,with people that I work with.
(41:49):
They're friends, but I used towork with them and we're having
breakfast kind of catching up.
They're like man, it's awesome.
And they're telling me aboutlike we've got a leadership
retreat coming up in Kerrville.
No, no, no, I'm sorry, InFredericksburg.
This was three and a half yearsago.
And what we're looking for issomebody to like facilitate the
(42:11):
retreat, but somebody thatreally knows us, that can like
call us on our BS and kind ofgive us some guidance, not just
like facilitate.
And I'm like man, I don't dude.
That's an interestingcombination.
I don't know anybody that coulddo that, or they would even be
willing to go to Fredericksburg.
I don't, it was at a winery,right.
And then one guy says you don'teven want you to do it and I
(42:34):
like, oh well, oh yeah, Icouldn't do that.
Like that's like so again, it'slike this thing that has to
happen.
In your brain they're like waita minute, you gotta let people
know when people want to workwith you, especially if they
worked with you in the past,because they understand the
depth of quality that you canprovide and they'll tell you no,
I don't want your stuff becauseI don't like you.
(42:56):
Or or like, oh my gosh, let meknow, We'll find the, we'll find
.
I've had guys, I've had peopletell me like I know we're going
to bring you in to do something.
Right now is not the right time, but you absolutely we're going
to work with you in the field.
Like, okay, cool man, Justlet's work it out, We'll make it
(43:25):
happen.
But you've got to let them know.
Bottom line, yes.
Now you said that you saw thispath a long time ago and it took
some convincing for our brother, Jake.
What was it that you saw?
That made, like you knew, likethis is.
We need to explore this idea.
What were the things that werecapturing, calling to you about
starting this business?
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Ooh, so many, and I think this kind of gets back to
where we started with theburnout situation and the stress
.
Almost every job that Jake hadin estimating there was burnout
and stress within the department, whether it was one person or
whether it was multiple people,and there were heavy traffic
(44:04):
times when they could really usean extra hand.
They just didn't need it yearround and so many estimators
were working 50, 60 plus hours aweek, you know, working weekend
and I told him I was like therehas to be somebody out there
(44:24):
that can come in and take someof this off of you guys when
there's just too much for theteam.
Like there has to be a solutionfor this.
And he was like there's justreally not.
And of course there were someestimating consultants out there
then.
And you know I'm not one todisparage anyone, I just know
(44:46):
that I heard that the people,the companies that tried them,
did not have good experiences.
The estimates weren'tnecessarily accurate.
The estimates weren'tnecessarily accurate.
(45:08):
So the only exposure that we'dreally had to the potential of
this service were people thatweren't necessarily doing a good
job, and I don't even knowcompany names.
I just know people would say, oh, got to be a better way.
Like is there a way to hire apart-time estimator?
Or you know, again that whole,bring them in during a heavy
work.
I just kept seeing all thesetimes where it's like they just
need an extra hand and theydon't have access to it because
(45:32):
it's not something they needfull time yet, because it's not
something they need full timeyet.
And it just kind of stuck in myhead thinking, and you know,
I'm me, you know me, I'm sittinghere thinking about like these
people who.
What are they missing in theirkids' lives, because they're
having to work on a Saturdaymorning when their kid's out
doing activities or theirchildren are young or you know,
(45:53):
not necessarily just the kids.
But like what are these peoplemissing in their personal lives?
Because their company doesn'thave someone to help take the
load when it's necessary.
And what's that doing to theirmental health long term?
And the other thing that Inoticed is there's a decent
(46:14):
amount of turnover, because whenyou have this situation and
people get burned out andthey've just they're overworked,
they're burned out, they can'thandle the mental load anymore
At some point they're going tothrow their hands up and say I
can't do this anymore, I've gotto stop.
And so then you have theturnover situation.
It's like, oh my gosh, if theycould just bring somebody in for
(46:36):
when they needed them, theywould be able to keep the
experience they have instead ofconsistently having to hire new
people and retrain them.
And that person has to learnthe company, whereas if they
could do this one thing to helpout, they would be able to keep
these employees long term andthey would spend less money on
hiring and training.
And so, again, it's like one ofthose holistic it benefits
(46:59):
everyone If you can just findsomeone that's trustworthy, that
you know will do a good job.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Yeah, oh, my good, I love it Cause it was obvious to
you and that's the beautifulthing, right?
So maybe for the L and M familymembers out there, what's
obvious to you is not obvious toeveryone, right?
Like you're saying, like wait aminute, my husband's working
his butt off and he's miserable.
Maybe he wasn't.
I'm maybe exaggerating, right,like 50, 60, like honestly
(47:33):
exaggerating.
Right Like 50, 60, like,honestly, 50 or 60 hours of work
to me that's easy.
But like what do you mean?
Less than 60 hours?
What's wrong with you?
But 50 or 60 hours today,running my own business piece of
cake, I'm loving it, I'm havingfun.
I've worked 50 to 60, 70, 80hours a week under extreme
(47:54):
stress and under pressure, withno resources in sight to
alleviate any of that pressure.
That's a different deal, even 40hours of that.
And so, like, what you'redescribing is you're watching
Jake there, you know, workinghimself to the bone and he's a
high performer and he has highexpectations of himself, and so
(48:16):
he puts more in than maybe thenormal person would or the
average person would, and sothat strain and pressure takes
out the energy, like takes lifeaway from him, cause by the time
he gets home, not just Jake,but people in general by the
time they get home, they gotnothing left and their
(48:36):
significant other, their kids,their pets, the plants, all the
things are neglected.
And so you're a hundred percentright and it was obvious to you,
like man, if you just had thislittle resource that could come
in and take off some of thatpressure so that those people
maybe they still work 50 hours,but they're not under crisis
(48:57):
mode every minute of every day,their quality of life shoots up.
And so, again, I'm a 50, 60, 70hour guy, but it's different
doing it knowing that I candesign my life in such a way
towards not this high pressuresituation, it's more of Ooh,
there's so much opportunity toserve other people, I'm going to
(49:20):
have to, you know, I'm going tohave to like, not watch,
whatever, right, there's thingsthat I'm willing to sacrifice so
that I can get my brain focusedand do the thinking that's
(49:45):
necessary to deliver the service.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Antonio, that was part of your job.
You went out and did theconference with Megan two years
in a row and you go out and Isee you posting pictures of all
of these connections that you'remaking, not only through the
podcast but in real life withpeople, and so you're not
sitting in an office in front ofa computer burning through
(50:09):
numbers your entire day.
You're out.
You're, you know, hiking withpotential clients, you're flying
somewhere to do a conferenceand meet people.
There's an aspect of life thatwe've started to miss, and I
think the pandemic kind of putit on hyperdrive, because we
were forced to interactvirtually and whether you're an
(50:31):
introvert or an extrovert, weall need social connection and
I'm not going to ever disparagegood relationships between
coworkers.
That's an incredible thing, butyou also need social time
outside of work.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Yes, no, you nailed it Because part of my work is
button pushing.
Right, it's not a lot Like,it's a small, like I don't have
to do timesheets or expensereports.
Where, like that's it, anybodythat wants to recruit me to work
for you full time as long as Idon't have to do timesheets and
expense reports?
You got me, but nobody's gotthat situation.
So we keep the consulting dealgoing on.
(51:10):
Part Part of my work.
Yeah, I got to do invoices.
It's that time of the monththat I got to and I don't really
like it, but it's part of thework.
I got to respond to emails.
I'm not great at it, actually,I'm horrible at it but I got to
do that part of the work.
Part of it is doing my training, consulting, facilitation.
I love that part because it'shigh human engagement, human
(51:30):
interaction Absolutely love thatpart.
Yeah, traveling around andconnecting with people and
building relationships.
I think the magical thing is,because it's my business, I get
(51:50):
to pick who the hell I want togive attention and energy to,
whereas you know the things thatI've learned in the three and a
half years of running mybusiness.
I look back and I'm like man.
I was a pretty media, I was agood employee, but I was a
pretty meat like, mediocreemployee, because what I
understand now in terms of likebusiness development and
marketing, branding andmessaging and like all of that,
(52:10):
had I known that when I was likean employee, I would have been
a freaking outstanding employee,but I would have to apply those
skills and knowledge to peoplethat I don't necessarily
appreciate or like, and sothat's the difference, don't
necessarily appreciate or like,and so that's the difference.
(52:32):
It's like, it's I don't.
There's very few things that Idon't enjoy doing or, more
accurately, there are very fewpeople that I interact with that
I don't like from a businessperspective or delivery of
service that I wouldn't hang outwith at the ballpark or go,
like you said, or go hiking withthem or, you know, barbecue
(52:54):
with them.
There's very few people youknow.
When I had a real job, it waslike, oh man, I hate all of
these people, but I got to go,you know, do the thing, which is
a totally different experiencewhich, like you said, like the
hours, it's fun for me and thework that I get to do, I believe
is precisely the work I wasdesigned to do in terms of
(53:19):
helping people have awakeningsand shift and see things
differently, so that they'rehaving more fun at work, like
you, improving their quality oflife like full picture, not just
their performance at their job,which is not the same as the
jobs that I've had before, likeI had amazing jobs but it was
(53:40):
like 20% amazing, 80% a job,whereas now I have like 80%
amazing, 20% job.
You know, anyways, one qualityI want to make is that personal
touch that you and Jake deliver,cause I would say that's the
unique thing.
Right, there's so much contentout there about scaling and
(54:02):
operationalizing and optimizing.
Right, like all of these things, which I agree could be
valuable If you want to build abusiness that you want to resell
or like that you want to exitout business that you want to
resell or that you want to exitout, over that you want to scale
massively, but I don't thinkthat's the kind of business you
all want to build.
No, sir, you like the personal,the connection, the exchange of
(54:28):
not just service but generosityin service.
Am I wrong?
Speaker 1 (54:31):
You're absolutely right, and that's one of the
reasons people have said oh,when are you going to hire and
when are you going to do this?
We're like we're not.
We're it Like this?
Is it Because A we're reallypicky?
I mean like really picky, andyou nailed it earlier.
Jake puts incredibly highexpectations on himself and he
(54:54):
wants to deliver the bestproduct he's capable of
delivering, and I'm very muchthe same, and we genuinely
become invested in the successof our clients and that matters
a lot to us, and so we don'tever want to bring someone in
and have them working with ourclients and then not be just as
(55:17):
invested as we are, because,like you say, we really are in
it for the service, because thewhole point was oh my gosh, we
can help improve people's livesand maybe, if we're lucky, we
can help improve the industryand sort of, you know, very
small ways, one company at atime.
(55:38):
If we can offer some sort oforganizational help that allows
this company to streamline andspend, you know, 20 minutes less
on each bid, it doesn't soundlike a lot, but it can be huge,
and that's what we're after.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
That's what we're after yeah, oh, my goodness, oh,
I love it and I'm going to saythis, like what I it's kind of,
I have a love hate relationshipwith, that is, I too am here to
transform the industry.
Right, I'm gonna leave thisthing better than I found it.
Now, I'm limited in terms oflike, just being a human I got
(56:17):
to sleep and all these thingsand so that means the like.
The number of people that Iwill be able to touch directly
is limited, but I also know thatwhen I impact people the way I
know I can, that it activatesthem to do the same for the
(56:39):
people in their space.
So the love-hate thing for meis I love knowing that when I
serve somebody to the degreethat I can, that it's going to
activate them and they're goingto serve others.
I love knowing that and thoseothers are going to serve others
, right, those ripples.
What I hate is that I can't seeall of it.
(57:01):
I want to see all of it.
I want to see everybody.
Speaker 1 (57:05):
What do you think about that?
I understand that.
I think it's hard.
It's funny.
You bring up ripples.
That has been sort of arecurring theme throughout my
adult life and people that Ihave found as mentors or even
some of my bosses.
One of my bosses I worked at alaw firm for a while.
She was one of the mostincredible human beings I've
(57:27):
ever met in my life incrediblehuman beings I've ever met in my
life and she did very similarto you, to me, to Jake.
She did everything for who itcould help and she talked about
the ripples and she actuallyonce talked about how you don't
always get to see it, but youknow it's there and I agree,
(57:48):
like not being able to see it issometimes difficult and I think
the reason is especially in ourindustry.
We know some of the problems andwe could get into so many of
them, and I don't necessarilymean just organizational
problems Like look at the mentalhealth crisis that the
construction industry is dealingwith right now.
(58:09):
There is a real human cost tothe inefficiencies in our
industry and it's hard to knowthat ripple is out there but you
don't have a face to know thatthis person benefited from
(58:29):
something that you initiated,however, many steps ago.
We only get to see, you know,the immediate people that we can
see, and that's hard sometimes.
But I genuinely believe that inthe next 10 years we will be
able to see what the ripples ofall of us who have these
intentions because, again, thiscommunity that especially you've
(58:52):
built on LinkedIn, that I'velike, been fortunate to be
accepted into everybody istrying to better the industry
and the world, and when youstart seeing that community grow
, I can't believe that in 10years we won't see those ripples
.
I can't believe that in 10years, we won't see those
(59:13):
ripples.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
Yeah, oh, I'm with you A hundred percent.
Like they're happening and theyget bigger and I just want to
see all of them.
Heather, damn it.
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (59:23):
Okay, I feel a little cheated because you already
know what the Grand Slamquestion is yeah, but you know
what's great, but I have an agein my life where I can't always
remember what I said last week.
You already know what the GrandSlam question is.
Yeah, but you know what's great?
Speaker 2 (59:36):
I have that age in my life where I can't always
remember what I said last week.
That's awesome.
I love it, all right.
Well, let's give it a shot here.
So you started a whole business.
Not only started a business,but transformed your life, sold
everything.
Y'all are out and abouttraveling the world,
experiencing new cultures,committed to improving the
(01:00:00):
quality of life for people andtransforming the industry, and
that's not to say that youhaven't already had major impact
in the people that you'vetouched.
I'm one of them, I know youhave, and so my question to you
is what is the promise you areintended to be?
Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Oh, the promise I'm intended to be.
I really did forget and havenot even thought about this.
I think I would have to say thepromise that I'm intended to be
is to do as much work on myself, push my comfort zone, push my
growth edges and improve myselfand be the best me I can be, so
that I can help others in betterand different ways the more I
(01:00:45):
grow.
Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Oh I, you know I second that sister right.
Oh I, you know I second thatsister right.
You heard me at the beginningsay selfish servant.
I believe a hundred.
Rather, I've discovered it'snot a belief.
I know the more I challengemyself and grow and learn and
all of these things like whichseems like me focused, it helps
(01:01:08):
me serve better in deeper ways.
And so you know type A.
Type a, I think.
What else?
Did you use another description?
recovering perfectionist tightlywound, yeah, all those things,
but you're out there bouncingaround the world, challenging,
expanding that comfort zone.
So there's no doubt that you'reabsolutely going to be deeper,
(01:01:30):
like, more equipped to serveother people and touch them in
the way that you've touched me,ms Heather.
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
And did you have fun, oh my gosh, I had a blast and I
want to tell you the feeling ismutual, because the thing that
you said earlier and it's sofunny that I know you say it all
the time, but what's obvious toyou is not obvious to everyone
you told me that the first timewe met in person and I will not
ever forget that, because theconversation we had was I was
(01:02:02):
like well, yeah, but everybody,and you're like no, not
everybody, and that made beenpart of one of the things that I
chew on in a way to help me bebetter.
I literally say, all right now,is this really obvious to
(01:02:22):
everybody, or am I seeingsomething they don't?
Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
Thank you for sticking it out all the way to
the end.
I know you got a whole lot ofstuff going on and, in
appreciation for the gift oftime that you have given this
episode, I want to offer you afree PDF of my book Becoming the
Promise You're Intended to Be.
The link for that bad boy isdown in the show notes.
Hit it.
You don't even have to give meyour email address.
(01:02:47):
There's a link in there.
You just click that and you candownload the PDF.
And if you share it withsomebody that you know who might
feel stuck or be caught up inself-destructive behaviors, that
would be the ultimate yousharing.
That increases the likelihoodthat it's going to help one more
person.
(01:03:07):
And if it does help one moreperson, then you're contributing
to me becoming the promise I amintended to be Be kind to
yourself, be cool, and we'lltalk at you next time.
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