Anna Ship. The Way Out Is The Way In. Our healing can come when reconnecting with what we feel hurt us.

Today I am sitting down with the beautiful Anna Ship. Anna shares her fascinating story of growing up in New Mexico. At a young age she experiences abuse, her mother passing and then her father leaving her life. Adopted by her aunt, Anna had many changes in her young life and is now Mormon with her adoptive family. The church, Anna says, was a safety blanket to her. It offered her comfort. The idea of Zion, she says, "this was it." In the community that she grew up in. "I embodied everything about the church."

Later on in life, after a marriage that she gave everything to - even sacrificing herself, she had experiences through her church that rattled her beliefs. For fourteen years, Anna shares, she was hustling to be the number one woman in her husbands life. It created a prison and she discovered that she was stuck. Her priesthood leadership was not great at the time and the experiences that she had with them would have caused her to leave. She was ready to walk away as she lost all respect for priesthood leaders. A book came into her life, "How to Love" by Thich Nat Hanh and it was a godsend to her at this time in her life.

Anna shares that she still has a lot of love for the church and still holds that there are a lot of truths there, she just now believes that it's universal.

During a conversation with her mother she asked Anna, "do you believe that God's work never fails? It's God's work and glory to bring past our eternal life, that's not our work. Our job is to love and we are on God's work table." This rang true to Anna.

Later, during a conversation with her bishop where she was not going to get her temple recommend, he said, "you know it's okay not to have a recommend. It's okay if it take a long time."  Anna shares that this was the first time in the church that she felt someone was telling her it was okay to have the journey.

With this thought that it's okay to have the journey and the belief that everyone is on God's work table, gave her permission to allow the pieces to fall.

God has me. There is no space he's not

LINKS:

To join me in my upcoming speakers symposium grab your ticket here: https://www.amandajoyloveland.com/leanin

Are you feeling the call to write your book? Come join my upcoming retreat May 12th-15th! https://www.amandajoyloveland.com/writersretreat

The Book How To Love by Thich Nhat Hanh https://www.amazon.com/Love-Mindfulness-Essentials-Thich-Nhat/dp/1937006883

Grab my guided journey for the death and rebirth cycle. Are you feeling that something gets to die? This is a stunning practice and one that you will find extremely helpful. https://www.amandajoyloveland.com/offers/nHjFkTTY/checkout

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Episode Transcript

Unknown (00:00):
Welcome, welcome, welcome. I am so thrilled that
you are here I am your host,Amanda Joy Loveland. And I am so
excited about well, a fewthings. One, my book is at the
editor as we speak, and will becoming to print here soon. And
this is a guide book for thoseof you that have left religion
and just a guidebook to knowingwhere to go next, like how do I

(00:21):
find my spiritual center, whateven is that my book is going to
be something that you will love.
And I'm also really, reallyexcited I have a speaker
symposium coming up April 24,here in Highland, Utah, this is
an in person event only. And weare gathering some beautiful
speakers that I'm really honoredto share space with. If you're

(00:42):
looking for more tools and moreguidance, and more just learning
where you can just eat upknowledge and eat up wisdom from
others, come grab a ticket andspend the day with us. It's from
10 to 6pm lunches included, andthe tickets are $149 for the
day, so extremely affordable.

(01:03):
And this is an event that Ireally really want to sell out
as this is my first event. And Ireally want to grow these, I
want to start doing more andmore, you know spaces where we
can gather and and teach andlearn from each other, and
really encourage each other togrow into those beautiful spaces
and lean in. So head over to mywebsite, Amanda joy loveland.com

(01:24):
forward slash lean and to snagyour ticket today. And I also
have another retreat coming upin May 12 through the 15th. And
this is for my writers, whereare my writers, I know that
you're out there. And if youwere like me, I had a book
within me for years. But I didnot think I was a writer, I
didn't know where to start, Ididn't know how to begin, or
maybe you've already started butyou're not quite sure how to

(01:45):
pull it all together. regardlesswhere you are in that path. This
retreat is for you. I'm cofacilitating this with my
beautiful publisher Kira Polson,who is so gifted, so wise and
has so much wisdom. Andtogether, we will be assisting
you in how to spiritually createand write your book, and how to

(02:05):
move through those places withinyou often it's the healing that
actually we get to do with ourbooks, that when we heal those
places within the books comethrough, and come more in flow
and ease and grace. So if you'refeeling the call, we're just
going to advertise this retreat,I know this one will sell out,
head over to my website, AmandaJ loveland.com. And go to the

(02:26):
retreats tab, you will see theretreat underneath that, that
link there. And without furtherado, let's dive into the
interview with my next guestthat was just truly truly
stunning. And so I'm reallyexcited to share this space with
a beautiful Anna ship. Well,welcome. I am so excited to be
sitting here with Anna ship. Andyou and I have just kind of

(02:47):
gotten to know each other oversocial media. And actually we're
trying to connect in person andthen life is just life. And so
it's like, Okay, do you want tocome be on my podcast? Because
then we can kill two birds withone stone and get to know each
other a little bit better? Andthen have you share your wisdom
here. Thank you. I'm excited.
You're here.
Thank you for having me here.
It's like I yeah, this has beensomething that I've been

(03:08):
watching your posts watching,you know, listening in on some
of these podcasts that you'veshared and hearing other
people's stories and justhearing. You know, the way that
it's all acceptable, and the waythat it's all lovable. Like I
wanted to get to know you forvery similar reasons. Like I
just love what you share.

(03:28):
And ironically, we have lots incommon like we both lived in
Germany, we both have likemilitary ties. Now I do you have
in the past and still do becauseyour kid's dad is military. And
you know, you're sitting herecommenting that I have a lot of
the same books that are on mybookshelf. So I'm like, I'm not
surprised. Anyway, just fun.
It's fun when we get to connectwith like minded. You know, and
this speaks a little bit becauseone of the biggest I just

(03:50):
finished writing my leavingreligion book, yay. And one of
the things you know, as you gothrough when people are leaving
is that community aspect, thatit's like this interesting,
double edged sword becauseyou're so tired of the
community. A lot of times peopleare tired of the community
that's held within religion. Andthen they leave and it's like,
crap. Now, where's my community?

(04:13):
Right? And it's like, well, youjust have to start looking and
being open to it. Because thenthings like this happen where?
Yeah, through social media, andyou're like, Oh, hey, yeah,
let's go get to know each other.
And then you just start buildingnew new connections. I feel like
my circles are constantlychanging because of that.
Yes, I agree. Yeah. I feel likethat's been my experience as
well.
Yeah. So you grew up in NewMexico? I did. Were you did you

(04:37):
grow up Mormon?
Um, yes. Well, yes. So I wasadopted when I was nine. And
that's later. So yeah, so mybirth mom and my adopted mom are
first cousins. So when my birthmom died, my mom's her cousin is

(04:58):
my mom now. Oh,That's actually really sweet.
That was hard for you though.
And nine years old? Um, yeah, Ican imagine
it was in you know, like Ireally struggled to bond I
really struggled to Yeah. Tofeel a connection. I think that
there was a big part of me thatfelt like I would be betraying
my mom, if I allowed myself tolove another close. Yeah. Yeah.

(05:23):
And, and then it wasn't until Iwas in therapy, like years
later, like, when I was in my30s, that I, you know, crying to
my therapist and saying, oh,like I, you know, didn't have
this bond with my mom. She'slike, Well, you wouldn't, you're
too old. And I was like, oh, butmy sister did. And she was like,
well, she was a little bityounger. And she was like, but

(05:43):
yeah, like nine years old.
That's, you know, that's kind ofolder, you're over that first
period of where all the bondingusually happens. And so she was
like, so that would be a naturalstruggle. And it was the first
time it felt normalized, like,oh, it's actually okay. Like,
I'm not abnormal for this whereI thought that like something

(06:04):
was seriously wrong with me orthat I was unlovable or, you
know, in some way, flawed insome fundamental way that I take
with my whole life ittakes is one person saying,
well, actually, that's reallynormal. And you're, you're not
weird, and nothing's wrong withyou. Exactly. You're like, oh,
even though I'm in my 30s, yes.

(06:26):
Out, freeing.
I had an experience with thatwith a therapist, and I, gosh, I
had done so much work. And I wasrevisiting the first the first
boy that I ever loved, we weregoing to, we want to get engaged
or get married. Anyway, wentthrough a lot of trauma, and I'm
someone that I take fullaccountability for my choices.

(06:46):
And yet, there's this fine linebetween Yes, and taking full
accountability. And this, thishappened to me, right. And my
dad, my beautiful father, whodid the best with what he could
with what he knew at the time.
And like, that wasn't a boy hewanted me to be with. And so he
had done some things thatultimately led to me breaking
out the engagement. But, and I,I was taking accountability.

(07:09):
With that she goes, your brain,your frontal cortex, where all
the relationship centers is noteven formed. So of course, you'd
lean on your dad because Ithought I had this huge, like, I
betrayed myself and not greatthings. And she's like, well,
until you're What is it 25 Ithink is fully developed the
prefrontal cortex, and that'swhere the relationship center

(07:29):
is. And it was this Oh,logically, like, for some were
funny like that, like a sigh.
You're like, oh, okay, not justretarded, and trying to blow up
my life.
Exactly. I, you know, andthat's, that's part of been part
of my journey to step into fullaccountability and what it means
to be 100% accountable for yourlife. And recognizing that those

(07:54):
subconscious patterns and, likethe way that we develop, and
like what I know, now, the mindnow, I had no clue back then.
Right? You know, like, you know,something, my husband always
tells me, You can't judge pastyou based on the knowledge that
you have now. Yeah, like, inhis, because I am really hard on
myself sometimes. And I thinkI've always just been really

(08:17):
hard on myself. And so that,that was one of the things that
like, yeah, finding that balanceof this event took place. And,
you know, you know, like, withmy parents and bonding, you
can't meet needs that you're notaware of, yeah, and you know,
and they had no idea, the depthof my needs, they had no idea

(08:37):
the depth of the abuse that Ihad experienced before that. So
like, they going into the bestthey could, yeah, and there was
no part of it, that was, oh, I'mgoing to hurt her and like, make
life harder for her. Right, youknow, there, and I can recognize
that now. You know, but at thattime, or when you're trying to

(09:00):
take accountability for things,you're like,
I'm you're nice. You're so whatwas your dad, your birth dad?
So um, so that's anotherinteresting part of the puzzle
is, so he came back for thefuneral to take us but my, my
mom's family, so he was fromMexico, okay. And so my mom's
family was like, you know, he'sgonna take them to Mexico,

(09:23):
because, and I found out later,you know, just few years ago, I
met him, he was pretty muchhomeless at that time, he didn't
have a place for us. And so hisonly option really would have
been to take us to Mexico. And,and so I think the choice was,
if they're going to be with thegrandma, they might as well be
with the grandma that they know.
So they hit me and my sisteraway. When he came looking for
us, right, he went searching,asked all the neighbors and

(09:47):
nobody would give him anyinformation. And
so, so he hadn't been in yourlife
he had well they were like offand on all together your parents
And he, like they got divorced,like right after my sister was
born. I think they wereconvinced that like, by other

(10:09):
family members that my mom couldget better government assistance
if they weren't married. So theygot divorced and stayed together
for a while. But you know, whenthings got hard, and you're not
actually married anymore? Soyeah, you know, it's really easy
to split. And so and I thinkthat that's what I understand
that's what happened is thingsgot hired on to so they were

(10:31):
like, it was a very chaotic,never really stayed in one place
for very long. Back and forthbetween California, New Mexico
and Mexico. And so there was alot of instability there. And so
he really like he was in and outof our lives. And so like, we

(10:55):
knew him, we loved him. Butlike, we really weren't, he
wasn't a constant present, rightin our lives. Yeah. So when he
didn't come get us, like, youknow, like, I think that there
was a part of me that knew thathe still loved me, but also knew

(11:16):
he didn't come get us, you know,and so my family never really
said, Oh, he didn't want you, oranything like that. I don't
think they ever really liedabout that. But I think that's
something that I inferred. Yeah.
Was that he didn't, you know,want me he didn't he didn't
want Well, naturally.
So, but there, but I learnedlater that there was a lot of

(11:38):
dynamics there a lot of like,sounds like protecting us, to
keep us in the United States,keep us where we would be
protected. Yeah. And so now Ican totally after having met
him, and having met some of hisfamily and seeing their
lifestyle, it seemed like, canrecognize the complete blessing
that it happened the way that itdid. Yeah. But it did open this

(12:00):
whole thing. And a reality thatI didn't realize, until in my
30s, that I had lost both myparents at that time. You know,
I always figured like, and sortof held that space for the my
mom was gone. Yeah. And that,but I never really, like, it
wasn't a conscious thing ofknowing, Oh, I lost both my
parents, right. You know, andso, like, holding the impact of

(12:23):
that later was like, Oh, mygosh, oh, oh, so like, all of
that. And then there was sexualabuse before it was adopted. And
after, like, buy from theoriginal family. And, you know,
like, all of that set the stage?
Yeah. So much, like,difficulties like that I

(12:45):
internalized as me being flawed.
Right. You know,Yeah, unfortunately, that's what
happens, especially when you'reso young, everything. That's the
irony, right? We're talking inour now we're adults, and like,
Okay, we're gonna take radicalaccountability for how I'm
showing up in my world andwhat's being reflected back. And
yeah, as a kid, that is what wenaturally do. How is this my

(13:07):
fault, but it's more of that.
And I feel like in the statethat I'm in now, and I would
think that this is the same foryou. It's more, what needs to be
seen and what needs to be lookedat and a little bit with more
compassion? Yes. And what's thelesson here so that I can clear
it and move forward? Or shiftthe thinking or shift the
pattern, whatever it is, aspigley? It's like, oh, my gosh,

(13:29):
what's wrong with me that I keepit? You know, it is this very
personalized, but in a not ashealthy?
Yes. Very negative.
Yeah. So did you So you grew upMormon with with a adopted
family,so they had just joined the
church, like five years beforethey adopt dressing?
So how was that? Um,you know, it was good, good.
Honestly, like the church waslike, and the Mormon church. It

(13:52):
was kind of a surrogate motherfor me, where, where I struggled
to feel like I fit in with myfamily, and, and feel like I
belonged with my family. Churchwas an immediate home. No, you
know, and I was Catholic beforethat, like, I'd taken my first
Holy Communion and gone throughcatechism and and I knew the

(14:14):
prayers, you know, and all thosethings that like, so I felt like
I had a connection to God, youknow, and I always felt close to
Jesus. And so you know, thefirst couple Sundays that we
were at church, it was reallyuncomfortable is very

(14:35):
unfamiliar, didn't knowanything. But then they saying
how great that word, you know,and my granny's saying that all
the time as a Catholic, youknow, and it's just very
Christian him and so like,that's where I found my home,
you know, and people left me,you know, they accepted me I had

(14:58):
good friends and where, youknow, some people turn to cope
with, you know, sexual abuse andstuff, they'll turn to drugs,
they'll turn to alcohol or turnto promiscuity, and stuff, like
I turned to purity. And it gaveme such a blanket to cope with
this that, like, I could, youknow, get rid of all this pain,

(15:22):
that, that I could get rid ofthe shame of all the stuff that
happened to me. You know, and solike, it was a very warm blanket
as a youth, like growing up likeit. It was my safe place, it was
my safe haven. And it wasn'tuntil I was older, that I
started to see there's flaws inthe system. Yeah, you know, that

(15:46):
they not everything Iinternalized it to be, you know,
and where I had internalized itto be where, you know, your
bishop is Jesus Christ himself,you know, incarnate here,
representative, you know, andthe, all these people that they

(16:09):
love you no matter what, youknow, there's never any judgment
and like, and I had, like, sucha pure experience with the
church. Growing up as a youth,like, my friends group was
amazing. I had the best support.
And this was all New Mexico.
Yeah. And, like, really, like,when you think of the ideas of

(16:33):
Zion, you know, like, that wasit, you know, like, we, like,
just were really a tight knitgroup. And I mean, but there was
a lot of us too. And, and so Iremember like that being, I
always looked forward to goingto church. Yeah. And like, I
loved the scriptures. I lovedhaving a testimony. I loved

(16:55):
bearing my testimony. You know,like, I mean, I embodied
everything about the church,took it in, imbibed it all,
like, everything. And it, it wasmy warm blanket. And so that was
I have, like, really goodmemories. And so that's one of

(17:16):
the things that like, I feellike helps me remain friendly
with the church right now. Yeah,whereas there was one, I had a
period where I could have walkedaway, and I would have been so
angry and in danger of becomingreally bitter. But Buddhism
really pushed me back.
Oh, interesting. What happened?
Um, do you mind sharing?
Yes. So um, yeah, so I, I didn'thave any problems with the

(17:43):
church really, until, like, muchlater. And it wasn't until my
marriage was imploding. Like, I,my first marriage, I found out
on my wedding night that I was arebound. And I didn't have the
courage to ask him about it.
Until like, a week later, afterthe honeymoon was over and asked
him, you know, like, are youstill in love with your ex
fiance? And he was like, Well, Idon't want to be Oh, boy. And,

(18:04):
and which was not the answer youwant to know. And but I had such
a laser view on eternity. Yeah,locked and loaded, that I'm
going there. You know, like weare going to have, everything
gets worked out. Eternity solvesevery problem. It can solve this
one. You know, and so I like hadso much faith in that. Yeah. But

(18:29):
for 14 years, I I was hustlingto become the number one woman I
never became number one woman.
And so as that was imploding ontime, was that
that's a long time to behustling to be it is the number
one woman in your partner's.
But that's how deeplyinternalized I had this belief.

(18:50):
And I had this hope thateventually it started to create
this prison. Yeah, you know,yeah, that I and it wasn't until
I started to see that, like, Iwas stuck. And then I in started
to feel like, this belief isn'thelping this belief is actually
creating a lot of pain. For me.
We got divorced, and you know,priesthood leadership, at that

(19:15):
time, was not great. You know,how to Bishop that. Like, I can
guarantee he never sat there asa young man and ever said, I
want to be a bishop one day.
Like, you can just tell that wasnot his aspiration. Yeah, you
know, and, and not because hewasn't kind or anything, but he

(19:39):
just I think struggled in theinterpersonal you know, and so,
in his approach was, like, Idon't feel like I can help so
I'm just gonna make it worse ifI say anything, so just ignore
it. And so so then I went, youknow, to stick president and

(20:00):
State Prison was like, Well, areyou perfect? You know, like, and
I mean, there was somesignificant things going on,
like, I mean, there's sexualassault, there was infidelities
there was, you know, activeaddictions and things that were
really, really painful. And Iwas having a really hard time
reconciling how it fit withinthe gospel and how it fit within

(20:21):
worthiness, how it fit withinthe eternal family unit, you
know, and, and I was having somuch trouble with that. That,
like, I lost all respect forpriesthood leaders. Yeah. And I
was like, never again, I willnever talk to a priesthood
leader again, I will never askthem for help, I will never like

(20:45):
rely on them ever again. Ofcourse, that wasn't true. I next
Bishop, I tried talking to nextBishop I tried talking to, you
know, and the next two actually,were really good guys. And
they're very kind. But it wasbetween the first bishop and the
second good Bishop that, like, Iwas ready to walk away. Yeah.

(21:06):
And, and I had this little bookcome up on my Facebook thing
that said how to love and it wasby Tikka Han. And, and I was
like, and I saw that, and I waslike, well, that's interesting,
you know, and, and I was just atthis point of, in the middle of
my divorce thinking, like, do Ieven know what love is? Like, is

(21:28):
love even a thing? Like, Does iteven exist? You know, like,
maybe I have it all wrong. Andso I started seeing this book
come up again, and again, in myfeed. And I was like, Okay, I'll
take white, you know, and so Ibought it tiny little pocket
book. And I just bought becausethe Zen master was describing

(21:53):
the love I was experiencing fromGod, that was completely
different than what I hadexperienced from church where,
like, I was starting to reallypull away. And as I was pulling
away to get myself healthier, Iwould have all these leaders or
friends be like, be careful thatyou're not being deceived. You
know, because I was settingboundaries, I was recognizing,
you know, going to therapy andgetting you were having educated

(22:14):
years. And I was gettingeducated on cognitive dissonance
and all of the differentcognitive distortions, and you
know, things like that, andstarting to see them in the way
the gospel was taught, startingto see them show up in the way
that we treated each other forbeing different, or not toeing

(22:36):
the line of the gospel. And itstarted to like, shift things
for me. And so I'm dealing withall of that. And then, and I
reached this point where I waslike, why would I stay here?
Like, there's all thesedistortions all over the place,
black and white fallacyeverywhere.

(22:59):
And I, you know, like, I wasreally pulling back my authority
to myself, and, and starting toget clear that like, No, my
connection with God ispreeminent above anybody else's
counsel above anybody else's.
And and I started, like, if Istarted vocalizing that, that Be
careful, you don't want to outdothe you can't. You don't want to

(23:20):
suggest that you know, more thanthe prophet does. It's like,
well, no, but I know more forme. Yeah, you know, and, and so
coming into that space, Istarted studying Buddhism, and I
went to my first meditationcenter, and like, what I had
always recognized as the spirit,my whole body was filled with

(23:42):
it. Every Harry was standing onend, I was warm, I was filled
with this energy. And I justfelt so at home. And again, I
cried, because it was like, thisis not where I have always felt
at home. And where I had whatalways had been a warm blanket,
wasn't feeling like a warmblanket anymore. And so as I
started studying Buddhism, oneof the concepts is that if you

(24:05):
feel hurt by someone orsomething, you know, the first
response is to walk away fromthem, or to, you know, be angry
and blame them. But what youshould really do is go back to
them for the comfort that youactually were seeking from them.
And I thought, well, you know,if that's true for
relationships, maybe I needed totry this with the church. So I

(24:29):
went back and had a really kindbishop, and really kind of stake
president. And it was at thatpoint that I realized, oh, okay,
I can still have my autonomy.
There could still be really goodpeople. And I can still no, this

(24:50):
is just not my place anymore.
Yeah. And it's just not where Ifind like my connection. God in,
in the place that worked for me,you know, and and I feel like I
really needed that bishop inthat state president to be as
kind and loving as they were tome to help me recognize, I don't

(25:11):
have to, like be angry, like, Ican just know. Like, just not
working for me. Yeah. And Idon't have to fight against it.
I don't have to try to tear itdown. I can remain friends with
it. Yeah, that is an interestingdistinction that you're making
there. Because I think that isnatural that normally we walk

(25:33):
away because we are angry. Andit. And it's interesting,
because even I mean, when Ileft, that was kind of the thing
that people my family would sayto me, Well, who who upset you?
You know? Yes, that's just youknow, and that was kind of their
understanding of that must bewhy I left, right. Or do what
you were saying, you know, withhow that's natural for people to

(25:54):
walk away from a relationshipwhen you're upset. Instead of
like, oh, no, actually, thisjust this isn't. I don't believe
this anymore. Yeah. And that'swhy I'm leaving. This just isn't
my place.
Exactly. And like, go back andreceive the comfort to resolve
the pain, and then just make adecision from that point.
Yeah. You know, and that iswhere true that true inspiration

(26:14):
that true intuition comes in.
When it is from that peaceful,calm place. Yes. You know, as
you're talking about the Spiritcoming in, in a place that was
wait a second, you know, alittle different than what you
would experience. When I was Ithink I was 20. I had gone on a
date with a guy that I had meton Matt on I don't know what
dating site it was. And he tookme up to this month monastery up

(26:35):
in Ogden Canyon, they like theyharvest bees and honey or
harvest honey with me. And wewent and listened to them chant
in this beautiful temple that Ihad no idea it existed up there,
when I'm sure it still exists tothis day, I've never been back
since. And they stood in there.
And they felt the same thing.
Like, we were sitting there. Andit was like I was so overcome
with filling the spirit. What Iknew is the spirit. It was so

(26:59):
confusing to me. Yeah. And like,How can I be sitting here with
these at this monasterylistening to these, you know,
and then I had to kind ofrationalize and make sense of it
and fit it into my Mormonbeliefs, because I write Mormon
for a little while. But that wasone of those things of Wait a
second, because we associatethat with Mormon religion,
exactly. Like it has a monopolyon that feeling and a monopoly

(27:22):
on, like, where you can get it.
Yeah. In reality, it's justtrue. It's just your soul going,
Yes, this is true. This isbeautiful. This is you know, the
spirit. Exactly. Whatever thatlooks like. But in so you
decided at that point, youdecided you were done?
Not quite. Yeah, it took us Imean, those, I mean, the pull of

(27:43):
community, right, the pull offamiliarity. You know, it took
me a while. I think, you know, Istarted to feel like how can I
do this, that respects both thechurch and me, like, because I
didn't want to, like, separatein a way where I felt like you

(28:09):
know, I needed to announce it,or anything, you know, like,
and, or. And one of the things Irecognize right off the bat was
that, like, I, I didn't feellike the garments were. They
didn't have the same meaning forme anymore. And, and I recognize
I was only wearing them out ofhabit, which I think that if you

(28:29):
make a promise, and I believe inthe power of a promise and
making covenants like I don't.
And here's the thing, likethere's so many things I still
fully believe, but just in avery universal way now. Yeah.
Like, like, my path took mewhere it's like if something is
true, and then it will beunchanging and unconditionally

(28:51):
applicable to everybody, all atthe same time, regardless of
their awareness of it likegravity. You don't have to have
a huge awareness of it. Youdon't have to study its
principles to understand that itaffects you and applies to you.
Right, you know, and, and as Isaid,

(29:12):
that definition then God in theend mean, when you start
applying God, this concept ofGod, in that definition, it's
like waiters,exactly. Well, and that's the
thing like, and because hugepieces of my testimony were like
taking big hits, like why wasn'tGod doing anything about men who
were being unfaithful to theirwives and still being able to
serve in the temple? You know,why wasn't God doing anything

(29:34):
about these huge betrayals, andfor a sin that's next to murder?
Right, you know, like, and sothat was one of the things I was
like, does God really care? And,you know, and so some of these
questions like I started, like,really piecing I was like, I
don't think he cares. I think wecare. I think we have our labels

(29:56):
And our definitions over thesethings. But I think, you know, I
don't think God's turning anyoneaway, who who's seeking them,
you know, if, if he's apersonified being, and God is
love, and that was another thingthat like, my daughter was
really concerned about whathappened to us now as a family.
And when I got my sealingcancellation letter, the letter

(30:20):
said that my kids still had toqualify for being sealed to me
and their dad. And that justsort of rubbed me the wrong way.
It was like, they had absolutelyzero apartness. Right. Like, and
it was part of that thing whereit was like, you know, if God is
love, if that's if that's a truedoctrine that God is loved. And

(30:41):
whatever love is, God has toknow if I love my children, and
I choose them, no matter what,then I believe God's going to be
there too. And so like, I, sothe best answer I could give, my
daughter is like, I there was noway I was going to read that to
her and tell her well, you haveto now hustle for it. Like you
now have to live your life sothat you can stay sealed to me

(31:04):
and your dad. And for me thatjust like, I couldn't hold that.
And so I just told I was like,you know it, I believe in
agency. I believe that, thatwhere God is that love is there,
and I choose you, no matterwhat, I don't care what happens
in this life. I don't care whatanybody chooses. I don't care if
anybody stays in the church ordoesn't stay in the church. And

(31:26):
my mom actually gave me just Idon't want to say it's a
freedom. But I guess it is afreedom. When my daughter was
11. And she was really pushingback against the church, she was
really angry at God that hedidn't, you know, save our
marriage. And she was reallyangry that the divorce had

(31:48):
actually happened. And I wastalking to my mom about it, it
was like, you know, so worriedabout her like, and this isn't
I'm still very Mormon at this.
And I was like, I'm so worriedabout her, like, I'm so worried
about her future, like, youknow, she's angry at God, she's

(32:08):
not going to get the support sheneeds and you know, all these
things. And my mom just lookedat me and she was like, Well,
Anna, do you believe that God'swork never fails? I said, Yeah.
And she was like, well, theScripture says that it's God's
work and glory, to bring topass, you know, our eternal
life. She was like, That's notour work. Our work is to love.

(32:32):
And she was like, if you believethat God's work never fails, and
you believe that she's on God'swork table, then you don't have
to worry about where she's at.
Because she's never lost to God.
And that to me, like I will say,gave me permission to let the
journey unfold. And that waswhat sort of gave me permission

(32:53):
to like, and also my bishop justwas so kind and loving. And so
like, you know, and I was soworried about not having my
temple recommend, because, youknow, it would have been the
first time that I didn't have mytemple recommend, and I I was
struggling to pay my tithing atthe time, because it was tied to

(33:17):
my ex husband, because that wasthe only money I was getting at
that moment, you know, and I waslike, No, my eternity cannot be
tied to him. For one moresecond, I cannot have any part
of my salvation dependent onhim. Right. And so I wasn't
paying it because I like, I wasso confused. There was so much
like, of this dissonance ofhaving to still be connected.

(33:38):
No, and, and I and I remembercrying about, like, not being
able to, you know, have arecommend, and I remember him
just being like, you know, it'sokay. If you don't, you know,
it's okay. If you if it takes along time, you know, and it's
sort of like I was the firstperson in the church to get
permission to have the journeyto, I mean, at least to open me

(34:01):
up to the idea, right, that it'sokay to have a journey. Yeah.
You know, and, and I think Ireally actually needed that to
come from within the church,because I think that, like, it
just made all of it, okay, likemy journey within the church.
Okay, my journey without thechurch, okay. Like, all of it
gave permission that all of itis on God's work table, whether

(34:23):
I'm in an institution, or I'mout in the wilderness, you know,
like, God has me there's nospace, he doesn't take up. Yeah.
And there's no space he's notaware of. And so those two
together sort of gave mepermission to allow the pieces
to fall. So I could startpicking up and for me, if truth
is, like, if it's notunconditional, and universally

(34:48):
applicable to everybody, I can'tcall it truth. Yeah. And so for
me, that's where I'm at. So I dostill believe in the priesthood,
but I believe everybody has thepower to act and everybody He
has has the power to act withthe elements. Everybody has that
power to command, you know, theuniversal energy that's in

(35:09):
motion in constant motion, weall have access to that. So I
don't believe that it's just formen, or just for men within the
church. You know, I, I believeit's everybody, even a small
child can claim that power. Andso I feel like, you know, your
marriage, like, if the ceilingordinance is about offering the

(35:31):
promise, then it's the dailychoices that we make with our
partners that bind us togetheror not. And so like, that power,
the covenant, I believe thatit's there to awaken us to the
idea of an eternal principle,that what we put together, can

(35:52):
stay together, you know. And Ifeel like that that's a truth.
And but it's true for everyone.
And it's not just, there's notjust one place, or one way to
get there. You know, and solike, there's a lot of things
that I still very much believe.

(36:12):
But in a very universal Yeah,way, you know,
and so I love all that. If youever listened to the Christ
letters,no, but Angie recommended those
Yeah, sheI think that's recommended it to
me, too. Yeah. And I, I thinkyou just started, she had, and
I've shared a little bit of thison with my story. But for me,
when I left religion, God died.

(36:34):
Like that Mormon version of Godjust he was gone. And with it,
like the foundation ofeverything, I remember sitting
in my bedroom at the time, justlooking outside and nothing had
substance to it anymore. And itwas like the weirdest feeling.
And then I just sat with that.
Okay, source, I can identifywith source every time I saw
God, instead of it triggering mebecause it used to trigger Yeah,
you know, I replace it withsource spirit. And it took me a

(36:55):
little bit to get to that. Andso I just kind of made my peace
with that for a while. And thenwhen this podcast came up on the
book, I had differentexperiences of like, okay, now
you get to go revisit what Godis. And I was scared. Actually,
I was not I didn't know if Iwanted to go ask that question
for myself. And I think aroundthat time, Angie, and I were

(37:17):
having a conversation, I can'tquite remember. So I started
listening to the Christ lettersand the Christ letters
essentially are saying that, aif God is unconditional, right,
then that means these thingsthat we put on him are
completely on him, you know, wewill say him, but that's we
don't know, right? Is reallyironic and hypocritical, because

(37:37):
an unconditional love with youknow, does not mean well, this
area of the world, I'm going tocreate a tsunami in this area of
the world, I'm going to create ahurricane and write earthquakes.
And the trouble is, it's not Godran in this, it talks about how
actually it goes into scienceand goes into the quantum realm,
and how us as humans, as aspecies actually will create the

(38:00):
own calamity in that world,wherever that is. So Steve, you
know, say we're in Utah, and weall our love and light and
harmony, while we're probablygoing to have balance in in the
land, versus somewhere else thatmay have a lot of fighting and,
and more anger than it wouldbring that up within the planet
and that location, to have firesare how floods are have. And to

(38:25):
me that, that makes make some,especially with the foldings
that I have now. And and youknow, and then later, I actually
sat in meditation, I'm like,alright, what is God, you know,
show yourself and and what camethrough for me was this ball of
energy, essentially. I mean, itwas faceless, and nameless and

(38:45):
genderless. And, and I thinkthat's part of the thing to at
least, for me, like, with myclients, if there's some sort of
a piece they need to make withsome aspect or some person,
usually I'll guide him to ameditation to where they can pop
that part out and have aconversation, right? Because the
mind if I can identify, andactually I know I can speak

(39:07):
English with this person, and Ican ask a question, then I'll
get an answer. But if there's ablob LIS form that I don't even
know what it lookslike, exactly, so nebulous.
Yeah, how do I,you know, and there's some of me
that's still working with that.
So I noticed I work more withChrist than I do with God. And

(39:28):
that's a whole otherconversation. But yeah, God is
is such an and there's so manytypes of gods and then so many
filters in the way that peoplecommunicate to what God is. And
so it is so different. Yeah. Forevery single one of us.
Well, and that's one of thethings that like, I feel like
I'm, you know, before I left thechurch, there was, you know, all

(39:52):
this pressure to, to, you know,read the scriptures because that
was President Monson. His lasttestimony was to read the Book
of Mormon to read the Book ofMormon. I couldn't I felt so
betrayed. Yeah, by all thepromises that reading the Book
of Mormon would save my marriagethat it would save my family and
priesthood blessings about,like, if you read the Book of

(40:12):
Mormon every day, like it will,you know, save your marriage
and, you know, things like that,and you know, didn't, I rang,
it's not going to know. And wewere like, fabulous. I mean,
many things about the church weweren't great at. But we were
great at praying together, youknow, and so in which prayer was

(40:33):
always you know, that that greatbinder, you know, the saver,
and, and so, like, seeing allthese things fail, you know, it,
I wanted to be obedient, I stillhad that pressure to still be
obedient. And I couldn't pick upthe Book of Mormon, I felt so
betrayed. I felt betrayed bypromises, I felt betrayed by the

(40:58):
book itself. And so I was likethat, not picking it up. And,
and I felt like, well, you know,like, if you want to just read
the four gospels, Matthew, Mark,Luke, and John, Stay there, stay
there for like, two or threeyears. Yeah. Just getting to
know Christ life, you know, andit was through Buddhism that I

(41:19):
started, like, actually startedquestioning, like, well, who was
Jesus, you know, and, andstarted learning about, you
know, the students who, youknow, emulate the master, but
don't look at what the Mastersdoing with what he's doing. You
know, and, you know, there'sthat story of, you know, the,

(41:42):
the teacher that took hisstudents out on a hill one
night, and so they were allwatching him and very closely at
what he did, and at one point,he raised his finger and smiled.
And so they all started, youknow, changing their body
position to, to match him and topoint and, like, make sure that

(42:04):
their arms are pointing in thesame way and to, you know, make
sure that they their face was,you know, at the same angle,
and, and whatnot. And, and onestudent looked at, where's the
teacher was pointing, and hesmiled, too. And, and so I think
that there's this where Irecognized for me, that I think
I had done the same thing whereI had got so caught up in Jesus,

(42:28):
and the idea of Jesus and beinginferior to just like, unworthy
to like, very much on apedestal. Yeah. And
where I could you know, like,everything about Jesus just
showed me how inferior and howlike, yeah, awful I was, you

(42:52):
know, I was not measuring up inany way, there is no way I was
not coming out, look and lookvery Christ. Like, in release in
the stories we've been told ofwho Jesus was exactly
what we think we know. Right?
And, and so it wasn't that atthat point, like, where I
recognize, oh, like, am Ilooking where he pointed, and
then I started reading from thatperspective, I started
recognizing, like, he was neverpointing the finger at himself,

(43:15):
he was always pointing it atGod. And always, like, saying,
Look to the Father, kingdom ofGod is within, but, you know,
always look for God, look, lookfor the Father. And and so it
wasn't until I got in this placewhere one time I was just like,
okay, and looking at God, andI'm trying to, like, define my

(43:38):
relationship with God trying todefine, like, what I'm actually
observing in real time of what Ithink that God is showing me and
what I'm actually observingversus everything I've been
taught about what God does, andrecognizing God's not striking
anybody down, who's sitting, youknow, God's not withholding any

(43:58):
blessings from people who aresitting, right. And we're all
creating our reality. Yeah. Andso like, I, you know, that broke
apart some things and, and thenI started, you know, learning
about you know, the nature ofeternal spirit that's always
connected and that that's thereality and that this human life

(44:18):
is the dream. Right? And, andthere's just this click one day
and I, I was coming home fromdoing some errands, and I sat my
driveway and I just cried,because I was like, Well, who is
Christ to me if I'm his equal?
Who is Christ to me if he's notany different than me? Yeah, you
know, and so like this wholething just shattered. Of because

(44:42):
I felt the truth, that of ourequality with everybody. I felt
the truth of Buddha just beinganother person, walking his
journey, and reaching this stateof enlightenment, and
recognizing the connection thatJesus was living his life. reach
the state of enlightenment. And,you know, Muhammad. And you

(45:05):
know, there's these three seemslike three main gifts that they
all displayed in, walking theirjourneying. And we are hung up
on these three gifts. Andreally, I feel like they were
all saying, follow me so thatyou can find your gifts. Follow
me to your genius, follow me tothis, you know, and where Jesus
healed and served with hisgenius. You know, Buddha did

(45:30):
stuff with the mind andcorrecting beliefs and
recognizing the delusions of themind, Mohammed. I mean, I don't
know too much about that. But Iknow that it led him to, to bow
and sing praises, you know, andthey all did things in their own
way. And I feel like we'vegotten so caught up on the

(45:52):
things that they did that welost what they were leading us
to, yeah, you know, and sothat's where I feel like right
now, like, if Jesus were to walkin the room, you know, five
years ago, I would have like,hit the ground, crying, bawling.
I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy,you know, where now if you were
to walk in the room and be like,here's my dude, like, Hey, have

(46:13):
a seat? Exactly. Let me pickyour brain let you know, get a
conversation. Tell me yeah,let's have a mastermind, you
know, like, I would, I wouldfeel like on the same level. And
so there was this huge religiouscrash, I guess I've recognized
on my equality with Jesus. And Ididn't feel like it made me made

(46:38):
me otherworldly. But I didn'tfeel like it robbed him of his
other worldliness, either. Youknow, like I it was just this
equalizing force that, and Ifeel like since I stepped back
from worshiping Jesus, that nowI'm like, actually able to
digest some of his words in waysthat like, I never would have

(46:59):
ways that are like actuallychanging me, changing the way I
relate to other people, and theway that I see unmet needs
instead of people trying to harmme.
That's all so beautiful. Andwhat the same that keeps coming
to my mind is as above, sobelow, as within so without,
right, yeah, and I feel like allthree of those that you're
speaking to, that is one of theconstructs that they they were

(47:21):
living, you know, we're allconnected, we're all one. And I
as you're sharing all this, oneof the things that has been
sitting in my mind lately, andpartly because I just
facilitated a receipt, retreatwith all women. That was
probably one of the moststunning retreats I've ever
facilitated, because everysingle one of those women came
in with no judgment. No, I'mbetter than, you know, or you're

(47:44):
better than Yeah, it was like ii Even though these women were
very different backgrounds, verydifferent experiences. And the,
the beauty and the magic thatwas able to be held in that
space, because of that was just,I mean, there's no word like, I
get chills talking about it. AndI was thinking, I was talking to

(48:06):
my beautiful friend on the wayhome and we were just talking
about that with, you know, justwith women in general. And, and
it's bringing this up as you'retalking, we have this tendency,
you'll see like the little memesthat go around as far as you
know, straightening anotherwoman's crown, kind of Oh, yeah.
And, and supporting our sisters,and it goes with men too. But
especially with women. And asyou're talking about this with

(48:28):
Christ, I'm like, no wonder westruggle with the idea of being
able to no matter where we'reat, to see each other eye to eye
to let that ego kind of take abackseat of, there's no better
than or worse than it is ajourney. And I'm grateful for
where I'm at, and I'm gratefulfor where you're at. And hey,
let's like you said, let's havea conversation. Let's have a

(48:48):
have a mastermind and, um, youknow, one of the things that I
feel like, Would Jesus I workwith him a lot, like he's on my
little my counsel, right? Bringhim in, I'll bring Mary
Magdalene I'll bring mother Maryin a lot. And we'll have
conversations, right? Becauseit's like, hey, help me with
what I'm supposed to do here.
And in fact, this is a Magdalenerose that sitting on on our on

(49:10):
our table. But God to me, isthis co creative energy. Yes.
Not a codependent to where tome, this is my my filter. And my
I'm just going to caveat it withthat, that it is this not
dictated this is what you shoulddo. And if that's what I
receive, because I'm asking,then I get to check in with is

(49:32):
that what I want to do? Right?
Yeah, there's kind of this cocreative dance of, of getting
out of the way and being in flowwith life. Yeah, I don't know if
this is making any sense, but Iloved everything that you
shared, because it is such aninteresting dynamic of the
constructs that have beenembedded so deeply within the

(49:52):
holding of the planet. And thenalso the holding within our
psyche. Yes, subconscious justconstructs constructs one after
another. after another, youknow, you need to listen to
these people, Jesus died foryour sins and you know, put them
on a pedestal and let's keepworshiping his death exam, not
actually what he was here to doand what he was doing, which was
actually showing, he was showinghimself what he was capable of,

(50:16):
and in turn, also awakening thatwe can do. Yeah. And that's what
I feel like I that's the otherthing that I feel. So I agree
with you that I feel like God isthe source and I'm the creator
of my life. And, but I'm a cocreator with everyone else who
has a part in my life. Yeah, andso nothing's ever gonna just be
dependent on my thoughts. And sothere's a certain element of

(50:39):
surrender to what I can'tcontrol, and to have take full
ownership of what is with thanmy control. And I feel like,
it's funny that you're, that youbrought up the trusting the
flow, because that came up. I'vebeen processing for the last few
days, my money story, my lovestory, all the things that I

(51:00):
felt I deserved or was entitledto, or that I didn't deserve, or
wasn't entitled to. And, and oneof the things that, like, you
know, talking to Angie and, andshe brought up, you know, the
idea of being in the flow nomatter what, and accepting the
flow of life. And I feel likethat's where I'm kind of landing

(51:21):
is this understanding thatnumber one, I don't have to
trust anybody else. Like, numberone, because they've got their
own lens, their own perspective,right, their own creative power,
no matter who they are. Exactly,yeah. So I don't, I don't have
to worry about trusting them.
But then it was like, there wasthis idea that like, you can

(51:44):
trust yourself. And I feel likethere's, I'm learning in a place
where I'm recognizing, I neverknow what I don't know. And so
putting the trust in myself,like when I have ego, and I have
these faulty programs, thatdoesn't seem so like, great
either. And so where I'm landingis like, I can't trust the laws,
I can trust that there isperfect order in the world right

(52:06):
now. Because everything isfollowing the law of cause and
effect, I can trust that thereis perfect order, in me, because
I am personally following causeand effect. So if I feel an
effect, then I need to getcurious about what the cause of
that effect is. And becausethat's my experience, and but

(52:27):
bringing love to it is going tobe the way that like I can bring
love to other people goingthrough a similar experience.
You know, and so I feel like theflow, where I think that there's
a little part of my tiny littleseven year old inner child, it's
like, no, the flow hurt me,please, you know, like, I can't
trust the flow. I think that's,I think a lot of people might

(52:51):
that language, sometimes could,when you've had difficulties in
like, real big traumas, thatwhen you weren't, like you
didn't have power, like,especially in those first seven
years, where you are absolutelypowerless and completely
dependent on everyone else. Whenyou've got a lot, there's like
trusting the flow. There's hugeresistance there, the flow was

(53:12):
not kind to you, when youreceived all those kinds of
traumas when you're that little.
Yeah. And so coming into a newawareness that the flow actually
is the loss. And it's, you know,this energy that is always
moving, and coming into cocreation with it, and

(53:32):
recognizing that, like, I don'thave power over these things
that happened. And maybe I don'thave to come into acceptance of
them. Like they were a goodthing. I don't have to, like,
honor that. People who areabusive, I don't have to honor
the event that robbed me ofpower. But what I can do is just
at least come into agreementwith reality that it happened,

(53:55):
and leave it there. Yeah. Youknow, and then own my power now.
And, and so it feels like that'swhere I feel like I'm landing in
that, like, trust in trustingGod is like, that's the only
place that there needs to betrust. If there is such a thing
as trust, you know, like, andmaybe it's just acceptance. I

(54:19):
don't know, I think there's apart of me that I'm still
working through. Yeah, thelanguage around trust, because
there was so much that wasn'tthere. Yeah, that I'm not going
to trust my faulty programming.
Because it gets me into trouble.
Sometimes. I'm not thinking, youknow, and I'm, I'm not going to
trust other people's faultyprogramming, but I can trust

(54:39):
that there is perfect order, andI can get curious about that
order.
I all that was beautiful. Andthere's a few things that I
would offer to that. One, haveyou listened The Four
Agreements? Yes. So I'm reallylistening to it right now. You
know, and it's funny becausewhen we listen to books, I'm
like, Oh, I don't even rememberthis part. The book, and he's

(55:01):
talking about how, you know,while we may believe or not
believe that we chosen to eachexperience, you know, depends on
your belief you are, sayreligion or even abuse. You
let's use religion This iseasier to you're a part of this
because your family is and atsome point you do make a
decision to have faith in it.
Yeah, like there is a decisionsome sort of a bias in it

(55:22):
somehow. And in some ways youcould like the abuse, not
necessarily, because abuse is atough one, right. And the irony
is, is, I would say 90% ofhumans have had some sort of
abuse in their formative yearstotally. Which is really
interesting. Because whathappens then is you do create a
program in the subconscious mindof, let's say, it's, I'm not

(55:45):
worthy, because this ishappening, or I'm not worthy of
love, or I'm unlovable, then youhave that program that's running
through your life, everythinguntil you clear it. This is why
I love NLP, which is neurolinguistic programming for
anybody who doesn't know whatNLP is. And with that, in my
experience, I think, absolutely,we get to a point to where we

(56:09):
can trust ourselves. Because atthe end of the day, everything
is an internal, everything thatis externally representing to
us. We're seeing these thingshappening in our world. It's
always a reflection of our innerstate, always. And I think that
that's one of the most beautifulthings about life is it's always
giving us feedback. And italways comes back to here. And
so in as you're sharing allthis, I think I agree that the

(56:32):
the laws of the universe areformative. But one of my
favorite favorite stories isabout being an irony that
shamans practice and it is beingin right relationship with self.
And there's different stories.
Have you ever heard of this?
There's interesting differentstories that are told. And then
in shamanism, by the way is 100%passed down through just oral

(56:57):
language like just verbally,it's not written down. Oh, so
it's really interesting, some ofthe things that have been passed
down through the generations.
But there's stories about inMachu Picchu, there were there
were fires. So they call on theshamans to come and help you
know, clear the fires, calm thefires. And all these shamans
come in and they start drummingand rattling and doing all this

(57:19):
around the land. And one of thefemale shamans comes in and
asked for a hut to stay in. Andshe's in there for about a day
and a half, and she comes out inthe fire stop. They asked her
what did you do, because theyknew it was her that stop that
did something she said and shesaid I went within that heart
and I went within myself to findwhere I was out of alignment.
And when I brought that intoalignment into Amy, when I did

(57:42):
that within myself, itreverberate it down to the land.
Because when we get into quantumphysics, when we get into the
quantum realm, we do see that weall hold this amazing energetic
blueprint and that we areconnected to all things. So when
we write things within ourselves100% Does it reflect in our
outside world? And so again, inmy experience, and I feel like

(58:04):
what I teach in the even thispodcast with how do you find
your spiritual center, you getmore and more into that place to
where you do trust 100% Even ifit's wrong, you know that it has
served a purpose, right? Okay,I'm going to make this decision
because this is what feels rightright now. And maybe I'm making
it from a place of fear butokay. And then you know, you you

(58:24):
experience what you experienced,but in that context, then
everything is just for learningand for our souls. Evolution and
in my belief, God in us are sointertwined that as we grow he
he grows again, I'm using key asan ambiguous whatever. And as
God grows, we grow like it isthis

(58:44):
well, and I do love the idea andI find A Course in Miracles
where it's like that we're allliteral extensions of God. Yeah,
you know, and so I don't know Ikind of like, it makes sense. If
we think of God as an everexpanding concept, you know,

(59:04):
that consciousness is alwaysgrowing consciousnesses always
expand. We're alwaysever evolving and I don't think
that we would never I don'tthink we would ever cease to
Stop rowing.
And so the idea that there mightbe a finish line somewhere like
I think that's one of the thingsis like, I feel like my mind
can't fully grasp it but I myspirit senses it and said there

(59:29):
isn't whatever there's noarrival there's something Yeah,
like that. It's cyclical, youknow and and that's the thing
that I feel like letting go ofthe linear path is opened me up
to like, recognize thateverything is a cycle and and
maybe one day like and I likethe idea that that one day I

(59:49):
could get there where I wouldtrust myself but I think right
now like I just so aware of myprogramming. Yeah. Well, we can
click that Like he's and I thinkthat like as the little inner
child like She just wants tofeel safe. And I think she just
hasn't quite grasped that, likethe reality that there's no such
thing as safety, law ofimpermanence everything is in

(01:00:11):
flux. Yeah. And you know, andthat's where that religious
programming creates such a warmblanket is to have answers to
every you don't have thataverage deductibility. Yeah.
Like and, but to, to go out intothe unknown. You know, that's
where this little seven year oldInsight means like, but yet, oh,

(01:00:32):
no, and, and, but there's thispart of this 40 year old part of
me is like, we get to learn, youknow, and I can be doing this
new curiosity in this new youknow, recognizing that, like,
you know, I may not be able tokeep myself safe from getting
hurt, you know, I may not beable to keep myself safe from

(01:00:55):
experience experiencing painagain, in some way, some major
way. Like, I have no idea whatlife has in store, you know, and
so like, but I think, cominginto acceptance that, you know,
whatever this thing is that Godis like, that is connected to
all intelligence that isconnected to the universal

(01:01:15):
consciousness of all things.
There's still a way to tap intothat, you know, and so and I
think that's the thing thatlike, I'm kind of landing on
with this idea of the flow inthe idea of like, it's not
something I've been able todigest yet. But I love the idea
of and you know, I love the ideaof that, like, maybe one day,

(01:01:37):
I'll get to the point where Ican recognize the programming so
fast, they can sink right intothe universal consciousness and
recognize, oh, it's justprogramming. Yeah, you know, but
until that point,well, the journey, right, we get
to go. And that's where, I mean,I've studied and been trying to

(01:01:57):
practice surrender for years.
And I do think it's a practice.
And I love Michael, singlesingers work, I talked about it
all the time. And how hedescribes no flow is a river.
And then it some scars likeboulders that are in our river,
because they're the trauma thathas happened that creates these
filters, or scars and how we seethe world. And you know, how we
start clearing, though. So thenwe have more of the flow. And

(01:02:20):
this retreat that I mentioned,I, I'm I mean, we're used to
planning we're used to having,okay, this is, you know, with a
retreat, I usually I will createthe construct, like this is a
container, and then theinformation will come in what
wasn't coming in, and I wasgetting really pissed about, I'm
like, What the hell is wrongwith me why, and I was actually
getting mad at God, like, hello,we have shit to do, I have this

(01:02:43):
book, I'm finishing like I hadall these things. And then
through a conversation with afriend of mine, it was, what if
you're actually being asked tojust completely step into
surrender and flow. And it waslike, Oh, shit. And that is what
I was asked to do. And that'swhat I did. And Holy Cow came to
you the ease, the ease of it,and the experience of thinking

(01:03:06):
that because for me, you get toa point in your life. And for
me, I've cultivated my medicineand my skill sets well enough
that I can 100% trust on them.
And so it was an interestingexperience to just step into
that space and let go and thenfully trust in myself and in the

(01:03:28):
information that was comingthrough. It was amazing. It was
almost effortless, and it and itwas stunning. And I think that
is the first real palpabletangible somatic experience that
I've had with surrender, becauseit is an interesting like, oh my
gosh, I don't even know how todo this. How do we let go, you
know, and we we dance, thatdance and life is a journey, you

(01:03:52):
know? And when you're talkingabout Jesus earlier, he embodied
actually trust he embodied thatthen the knowing that he was co
creating with God and with theelement. Yeah, I mean, you look
at alchemy and how he was ableto tap into the energetics of
something and transmute,transmute and transform it into
something else. Exactly. Likethat would take a full trust and

(01:04:14):
surrender unwavering. Yeah.
Because when the human psycheand human ego gets involved of
Who do you think you are to dothis? Or, Oh, my God, I have no
idea what I'm doing. You don'tmean right gets in the way so
you can't create.
Exactly and that's what I feellike that's what atonement is.
Atonement is when subconsciousconscious and super conscious
are all fully aligned. And Ifeel like that's what Jesus

(01:04:35):
showed perfectly. I don't feellike atonement was when he died
on the cross. I don't feel likeatonement is when he was in the
garden, you know, like that. Youknow, like, I feel like, you
know, that wine press or, youknow, whatever, that like that.
That was part of it. You know,but I feel like him being able

(01:05:01):
to maintain that identity of whohe was without who he was, you
know, letting go of all theidentity parts and, and just
being the universalconsciousness through what we
think is the wind press, I don'teven know. Yeah, you know,
there's part of me that I'mstill like, I don't know what I

(01:05:23):
don't know, I don't know, like,what, what is absolute truth or
what has just been taught asabsolute truth.
This morning I was thinkingabout how when we allow
ourselves to say, I don't know,I mean, I think I know these
things until something elsecomes into my awareness that
teaches me something differentthan me, then it allows for
space and movement to actuallyhave information to be brought

(01:05:44):
in, right? And atonement is atone moment. Exactly, you know,
when you bring you down inmind. And so like, to me is
like, you know, when you get thesubconscious, to accept, you
know, and to be cleared of allthe programming, and that's why
I love hope on Apollo. So muchlike, it's my favorite method.

(01:06:07):
For those who don't know whatoponopono is you want to share?
Oh, sure. So it's the Hawaiianshamanic prayer for mantras
where the idea is that what yousee you take it on as yours. So
if someone is being rude to you,you take it on as your rudeness.
And you say, I'm sorry, forcarrying this pattern of

(01:06:29):
rudeness. Please forgive me.
Thank you, I love you. And whenit's those four phrases, and you
just the the premise behind itis there's only love in the
world. And the only problems arethe thought that there's a
problem. And so if we're havinga problem with somebody, like
that's actually coming fromwithin, it's not actually coming

(01:06:50):
from without Yeah, and so we canclean on it. So Whoa, upon
ponemos, the eraser, that helpsclear the program that's telling
you there's a problem when thisperson is doing this thing. You
know,yeah, thank you. And yeah, say
those four things again, it'sthe I'm sorry,
please forgive me. Thank you. Ilove you.

(01:07:11):
Yeah. That's a beautifulpractice. And a lot of people
really, really love it. Anyway,I'm like, where are we? You were
talking about something else?
And then you said hope on apono. And I totally lost my
train of thought we're where arewe? Let's see here. Usually, I
can recall it and it's blink.
Oh, it's talking aboutatonement, and the aligning the

(01:07:33):
mind and like clearing clearclearing the subconscious
patterns, and clearing thosebeliefs. And that really just
takes the light of awareness tohelp clear that, and in to
change the vibration of it. And,and so I feel like when we apply
that love and gratitude thatthat gives it to highest
vibration. I mean, I'm not thehighest highest, but you know,

(01:07:56):
of the feeling. And, and then wehave the opportunity to bring
the subconscious in alignmentwith the conscious mind. And
then there's this part of usthat is connected to the All in
all the superconscious that whenall three of those are aligned,
that is the United mind that isatonement. Yeah. And so I feel

(01:08:17):
like Jesus was always showing ushow to do that. I feel like
Buddha showed us how to do that,you know, and so there's these
two paths, I would like considermyself a Buddhist Christian
mystic, likeso. And as you're doing that
you're doing the serpent energythat's all Kundalini and it's
crossing through. That's funny.

(01:08:39):
Oh, I love this. I love this. Ilove this. And I think I want
you and I were before we startedthis podcast, you and I were
talking about the mother wound?
Oh, yes. And I think I'm goingto have to invite you back.
Maybe around Mother's Day, youand I have a conversation around
that. Because Okay, yeah,there's some interesting pieces
there that I would love to diveinto and sound sharp, like
you're open to sharing yourmother wounds and so am I. So

(01:09:01):
yeah, really cool conversation.
But anyway, thank you, weprobably should wrap up. We're
over an hour and this has beensuch a beautiful, I've really
enjoyed this conversation andthink sharing space with you.
And anyway, hearing everythingthat you've learned, is there
anything that you would love tooffer anyone that's kind of in
the process of stepping out ofreligion, to kind of assist them

(01:09:25):
in finding comfort and just kindof navigating through?
Um, I think I would just offeryou know, that it's okay for it
to be scary. No, it's okay forbecause we're leaving behind not
just a religion, we're leavingbehind an identity an entire way

(01:09:46):
that we've related to the world.
And, and I think, you know,sometimes people can get really
judgy about when they see peoplestruggling and they're like,
well, you should have gone backto religion, right? Because, you
know, Um, you know, you've lostthe light in your eyes or you
know, you're struggling. So thatmust mean that the struggle is a
bad thing. And it's not like I,as as painful as the journey has

(01:10:11):
been for me, I would not give asecond of it up, I would, I
would not go back. And I feellike it's worth it to push past
the discomfort. Because theredoes start to a comfort zone in
the uncertainty begins to build.

(01:10:31):
And then it opens us up to likeso much more. And I feel like
it's such a personal journey.
Some people throw God out. Somepeople keep God and, you know,
some people keep Jesus and throweverything else out. Like
whatever it is that they're ifthere's an anchor that can help
be a bridge, I think it's okayto hold on to that. Yeah. You
know, and I think it's okay toexperience the full, the full

(01:10:56):
weight of the fear. And justknow that that's programming.
That's all fear is.
And I think what you're speakingto, you know, it's that death,
you're, you're letting go and,and allowing for what you used
to be and who you used to be todie. Yes. And that that feels
really painful. Well, it was itwas your identity that you wore

(01:11:19):
for as long you know, it served.
Right, exactly. And now you're,you're letting it go, you're
letting it die. And I did a asyou're talking, I'm like, I'll
mention this here, I did ameditation a guided journey that
actually is a death, right? SoI'll put the link in on the show
notes for anyone listening thatfeel like they're in that
process of, of death and needingassistance into allowing for

(01:11:40):
that to be released. Because inshamanism, we have all these
aspects, you know, and there's apart of us that sometimes it's
like, okay, this is coming up tobe let go. And and this journey
assists and releasing that andthen bringing in a new aspect
one, yes, like, oh, okay, I'mready to go. Let's do this.
Well, and you know, I had alittle period where, like, I

(01:12:01):
became so disconnected fromeverything that I became
suicidal. Yeah. And for and I,the more I talk to people, the
more like, it's here. Yeah, thatthat's really common. And I, and
I feel like the thing that I'velearned is to step into the
despair.
Yeah. What's the dark night ofthe soul? It sounds like that
you're going through? Yeah,well, in a few times, to like,
and I think that, like, there'sall this judgment around

(01:12:26):
despair. But despair is the keyto freeing ourselves from those
prisons, of false hopes. And solike, I and that's what allowed
me to like, move past thesuicidal part of it, is to allow
despair to have room. And Ithink that there's even outside

(01:12:47):
the church. There's so muchstigma around despair. Yeah.
That nobody holds space for it.
Nobody holds with theiceberg. Shadow part of
ourselves that it is like, wewant to avoid that like the
plague exact and then when we dofeel suicidal, again, I'm going
to speak to this a lot of times,it's because there's a part of
us that's actually asking todie. Yeah, not all of us say

(01:13:08):
exactly.
Just a part. Yep. Just one thingis ready to fully let go. Yeah.
You know, and, and soidentifying that part, instead
of taking it on as all of meYeah, but But giving room for
the despair, giving room to letthe hope die.

(01:13:31):
Our emotions are actually partof alchemy that we get to
experience within ourselves. Andso that's, and I've spoken to
this in another podcast. But Ithink it's really important to
speak to that, again, thateverything you're sharing, like
when you allow yourself toactually go into those emotions
and allow yourself to feel itthrough, it will clear and
cleanse it. Yes,it can in a big way. And there's

(01:13:51):
freedom on the other side,and light and knowledge and
awareness that you didn't haveand, and something about our
ourselves gets fortified. Andthere's a new strength that
comes in that we didn't know wehad.
Yes, exactly. Because I feellike we've been conditioned and
programmed for so long to avoidthe darkness at all costs, that

(01:14:12):
the only way to get to thatother side is through it. And we
have to be willing to sit withthat darkness The way
out is the way in they exactly.
Oh, beautiful. Thank you. Thankyou. Thank you. I just
appreciate you. And this hasbeen awesome. Thank you for
Thank you.
Thank you for having me. Thathas been an honor.
Wasn't that amazing? And such abeautiful conversation that I'm

(01:14:32):
looking forward to hopefullyrecording another episode where
we get to talk about the momshame. And because that was just
a conversation her and I hadstarted before the podcast that
was really interesting. And forthose of you that are curious,
in that meditation that Ioffered, if you head to my
website, and you go to themeditations, you'll see one

(01:14:53):
that's death rights. And thatone is the one that will assist
you if you're feeling a lot ofthe things that she was talking
about. Towards the end with justthose parts of you that are that
are ready to be let go that areready to be put to rest. I have
a guided meditation that is ajourney to allowing yourself to
let go of that part of you thatis asking to die. And then you
get to claim a new part. So headover to my website and you can

(01:15:17):
find that meditation underneathmy meditations tab. And I just
saw honor all of you on yourpath wherever you are, know that
you are not alone. And I Gosh,I'm just thrilled to share this
space with you. Sending you allso much love