August 10, 2022 • 53 mins
After a beautiful and raw first episode I, along with several others, were left wondering about more of Rachael's story. I was grateful when she agreed to sit down with me again.
Sharing about her journey as a child, being an olympic junior medalist, growing up within the mormon religion, her marriage and how they chose to navigate things like how they wanted their children to view the human body, a bit different than what the church teaches.
This is a beautiful episode as Rachael shares that she still feels called to go to church and be a part of opening doors to other possibilities.
To join my next INbody Retreat Experience head over to https://www.amandajoyloveland.com/inbody
Connect with Rachael:
Email: rachaelsbeautyparlor@gmail.com
IG: Rachael.wheeler.376
Join my private facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/leavingreligion
For more tools to assist you in stepping out of religion: https://www.amandajoyloveland.com/leavingreligiontools
Grab my latest book! Leaving religion, a guide to finding your spiritual center after religion: https://www.amazon.com/Leaving-Religion-Those-Leave-Behind/dp/1952566487/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1FUQQ23L4I458&keywords=leaving+religion+%26+those&qid=1655217437&sprefix=leaving+religion+%26+those%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-1
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:05):
Welcome, welcome, welcome. I am excited to share
this episode with you as it is apart two of Rachel's interview.
And I know that after our lastinterview, which was a few weeks
ago, there was a lot ofwondering more of her story. So
she said yes to interviewing asecond time and actually sharing
a little bit more of her herstory, and I am so excited to
(00:27):
share this with you. And beforewe dive in just a reminder of my
upcoming inbody experience thatI am co facilitating with three
other amazing women, September26 22nd, through the 25th. And
that will be in Springdale,Utah. And guess what? Something
actually really, man, when youlisten to spirit, and you're
(00:49):
you're tuning in, and alwayskind of asking how things get to
be a little different. It'salways funny and interesting,
the things that show up. So thisretreat experience is converting
to a donation based. And so weare tuning in and trusting the
divine and trusting all of you.
And so, we are, you get to gothrough and do a few steps,
(01:12):
because we will have a lot ofpeople applying and we only have
room for 13 people, there is aquestionnaire to go through and
a few steps to to do and then ifyou are selected, then you get
to tune in and check in with youand your connection to the
divine and you get to pay whatfeels in alignment for you. Some
people it may, you know, be alot less than others. And that
(01:34):
is okay, we are trusting thisexperience and trusting this
opportunity to have a newrelationship with money and
reciprocity. So if you arewanting to attend and join us,
head over to my website, Amandajoy loveland.com, forward slash
inbody. That's INBOD. Why, asAmanda J loveland.com, forward
(01:55):
slash, I n, b, o d y and justfollow the steps to the website.
And yeah, we would love love tohave you this is going to be a
really, really beautifulexperience. So with all of that
being said, let's dive into thisinterview with Rachel Wheeler. I
had my I've never done anepisode like that, where we just
(02:16):
kind of even though I've beenwanting to because you're not
the only one that has everybodythat I talked to has something.
And so and so I thought was justbeautiful, a that you allowed
yourself to be seen in thatspace, and just had the courage
to lean in. So again, I justwant to thank you for that. And
on top of that, I I really feellike by you doing that it gives
(02:39):
others permission to just beseen. And that's what I was
doing. My real about thismorning is it's you know, we get
into the such a state of beingneeding to be perfect and have
shit together all the time. Andit's like, nobody does, I don't
care who you are. Anyway, sothank you for that. And I was
listening to it on the way downwith my husband, we headed down
(02:59):
south and he's like, I reallywant to know more about her. And
I'm like, you know, I wasthinking about doing a part two.
So when he said that, that'swhere I'm like, Alright, I need
to reach out because that washis thing is like, I want to
know more about her story,because it sounds like she's got
quite a story. So thank you foragreeing to do a part two. So I
know on our last episode, youkind of touched on a few things
(03:22):
with your with your story. Butyou were were you raised in
Utah. Were you in Idaho? Youwere in Utah. Born and raised
Mormon. Yeah. How was that?
Yeah,it was good overall. I mean, I
still to this day, primary songsand hymns run through my mind
all the time to give me littlemessages of comfort and things
(03:44):
like that. I loved the cultureand an amazing childhood. My
parents were very, very strict,but also very consistent. And my
mom was pretty attentive.
Overall. She kind of spoiled me,because I'm kind of like the
little version of her the sidethat she loved. I was spoiled.
(04:08):
And, yeah, my mom was absolutelyamazing. I mean, she would get
down on the floor. From the timewe were a little tiny and just
be playing with us teaching ushow to color and draw and she
would be out playing sports withus and teaching us just all
different skills. So my siblingsand I were very well rounded and
very talented, very creative.
(04:30):
I love that. So you were youmarried later on in the church?
Yeah. So I grew up in thechurch, and then I graduated
high school and went off tocollege, but things kind of fell
apart. I went, I actually wentoff to college on a full ride
scholarship, throwing thejavelin. Oh, sweet. And I got
(04:53):
the opportunity. It's funnybecause my older sister she
would do things and I justadmired her and so I would be an
icon I want to try that too,just as an endearing thing. But
she did it every time. And atone point during high school,
she's like, Stop copying me,because I would go and try
something that she loved to do.
And I was just really, reallygood at anything. So when I was
13, she joined the track team.
(05:18):
So I'm like, oh, that soundslike fun. Maybe I could try
something. And I saw the deviland I went out and I tried
everything at least once. Butthe javelin, I threw it. And it
spun over itself, because Ididn't know what I was doing.
But I was two feet away fromqualifying for state throwing it
that first time, wow. And then,three short weeks later, I think
(05:40):
I was 1413 or 14, I heard thatthere was the Junior Olympics
happening in Illinois. And mytrack coach is like, we're gonna
fly you out. You're going to theJunior Olympics straight now. So
I ended up winning a gold medalin the Junior Olympics. That's
amazing. And then, but anyway,so I grew up, LDS, but I'd moved
(06:08):
to new place during this 12 and13. Year, and had a lot of
bullying because I was no longerknown by the group of friends
that I had. And so I becamereally, really shy. I was having
bullying from all differentsources, like on the bus at
(06:28):
school, all different groups ofboys were bullying me. So I
became extremely shy wasn't thatsame happy go lucky, outgoing,
silly, creative, whatever. Ijust allowed myself to be before
that. Anyway, I was, I learnedthat through puberty, that I was
kind of terrified of men. Likewhen the boys started having
(06:50):
their voices change, all of asudden, I found myself extremely
intimidated and felt like the,like, I just stayed away from
him. I was scared to death ofmen in general. And that
definitely, I think, the wholepuberty transition plus that
triggered something within methat I didn't know was there. So
(07:11):
I didn't really date in highschool at all. But then when I
was 18, and I started well, 17and started attending college.
Then guys started asking me out,well, I turned 18 In October,
just a couple months later. Andso I started going out on little
dates here and there. And thenI, my parents moved to Colorado,
right after I graduated highschool at 17. And so I went back
(07:35):
for my full ride scholarship atUVU. It was UPSC, then, but it'd
be you. And within two and ahalf months, things just
completely fell apart.
Everything was going wrong.
Yeah, I lost my wallet. I misseda major test. And a couple other
things that made me lose myscholar ship. No, no, sorry, I
(07:58):
did that full year. And then itwas the following year that I
went back and things fell apart.
I might be remembering detailswrong. But my parents started
doing foster nanny during thattime. And I was their full time
foster nanny for a while. Andthen I was going to school off
and on and, and workingotherwise babysitting and things
like that off and on. So at age1920, and 21, I think I was
(08:21):
either attending college online,or going to community college in
person there. And also takingcare of my, my parents, foster
kids. And I wanted to serve amission at 21. So I filled out
(08:43):
all the paperwork, and I wasgoing home. I mean, at age 13,
because of the bullying, Istarted praying, like every
morning and every night. I'mstudying my scriptures every
morning and really trying to getto know God, and what his
purpose was for me. And so I hadbeen doing that the whole time
till 22. Whenever those littleseminary things came around, it
(09:06):
was like, I have read myscriptures for 30 days, I've
read my scriptures for 90 days,you know, 120 days, every time I
just wouldn't have my parentssign it because it was like, no
questions asked, you know, thatwas my lifeline. Yeah, to make
sure that I could feel connectedto God and kind of hear his
voice to be able to help or seeif I saw a need for service or
(09:29):
being able to see people for whothey truly were. That was the
gifts that I was honing in onfor all those years. And also
learning wisdom through thescriptures and through being
connected.
Anyway, so yeah, I was wantingto submission because that was
(09:50):
all me I had been like a fulltime missionary the way that I
was living my standards andeverything for many years by
then. And any chance I got I didtry to share the book more
random things like that withother people. So I filled out
all the application, did mydoctor appointment, even did
pictures for my mission, andthen was gonna send it in. But I
(10:13):
prayed about it. And the sameanswer kept coming that marriage
was next. And motherhood wasnext. And that was my mission.
So be patient a little longer isthe answer I received. And I
never sent it in. And, and but Ialso tried to move out and just
(10:33):
go get roommates at my parents,my dad had been laid off from
Novell, after so many years ofworking because he didn't have a
bachelor's degree. And so theywere really struggling
financially. And so they werehaving me kind of take care of
the foster kids, while theytried to get ahead a little bit
because they were in major debt.
And so they were like, we reallyneeded they would talk me out of
(10:56):
every time I tried to leave at820 and 21. So I stayed
there. Until that had to behard.
Yeah. And, and then I, I wasdating quite a bit, off and on.
And I ended up meeting Dan, theone that I was married to for 18
years, when I was 20. And thenwe started dating the beginning
(11:20):
of the next year. And ended upgetting married within six
months of knocking each othermarry in the temple and then did
the Mormon thingfor a while. Yeah, so yeah,
we're very active LDS. I mean, Iraised my kids the same way.
Meaning we were very active. Andwe still are actually, I still
(11:43):
go to church with them all thetime. And they go to the all the
activities and stuff like that.
But the cool thing is, is thatDan, from the beginning of our
marriage, kind of questioned whyI did things. And that helped me
to not just do things because myparents did them or out of
tradition, or this is just theright thing. Yeah. So we both
(12:06):
have raised them in a way that'svery pro freewill. That's good.
Think outside the box. Sudo,explore whatever you need to
explore. And my emphasis for mykids is adult, just make sure
that your piece is intact. Ifthere's something that's robbing
you of your peace and,obviously, don't go toward that
(12:30):
so much.
Yeah. Did you say they're stillactive LDS? Are you
and and I am, I pretty much gowhen I want. But I'm pretty
active still. Yeah, I, the wordwhere I kind of got kicked out
is night and day difference fromthe word that I actually moved
into. Yeah, I went this firstSunday to the new board. And the
(12:53):
comments that were made inSunday school, I'm like, these
people are real and raw. Andthey're not afraid to make that
this is the this is an awesomegroup of people. Yeah, that's
refreshing. And then I went backto their ward yesterday, my
where my kids are in theboundaries, they just live down
the road, by the way. Andokay, do I have anything to
(13:16):
contribute here? Do I haveanything to receive here? Yeah.
And the spirit was just like, Imean, it's your choice. Because
there have been so many timeswhere I've been so triggered at
their word that I've just like,gone home. And it's been a
release, like I bought, yeah, orhalfway through, I start
bawling, because there's so muchof it's too much of programming
(13:42):
this much. And it's a lot.
And but at the very, very end ofyesterday's Sunday school
lesson, I stuck with it. And atthe very end, I was actually
able to make a comment. Andthere was another woman that
made a comment, and I totallygot the chills and like, yes,
divine feminine coming right inThank you. You know, because
they were focusing on how 18year old boys need to be serving
(14:05):
missions, and how can weencourage them to do that? And
she came right in, she said,everyone's got their own path.
And we need to, you know,honored that somewhat, she said
that. And I was like, yes, thankyou. We need the balance. It's
not just, it's my 18 year oldson was in there. And he's not
(14:25):
in a mental state to be able togo serve a mission. I'm like,
maybe in a year, if you feel upto it, and you really feel
motivated, then a servicemission, right. But it's a lot
you have to know why you'redoing it. It's not an easy
thing, and be really strong inthe work that you're doing to
get out there and do it. SoSo in our last interview, you
had mentioned that you kind ofyou pretty much got kicked out
(14:48):
so I Yeah, because of that, thatstory that you shared with with
you just moving through some ofthose pieces within you. And
you're still choosing to go Goto church.
Yes, because there was a pointwhere I was bawling out of grief
for all that I had lost just theideal. I mean, the marriage was
(15:11):
absolutely miserable for me. Butjust I had lost the marriage and
the ideal family unit. And, youknow, and also the community, I
thought I'd lost the community.
And yeah, everything that myparents and grandparents, you
know, this is the right way thisthe right way, this the right
way. So I was just grieving. AndGod or the Holy Spirit came
(15:36):
right in and said, Rachel,please stay needed for the
changes that need to be made.
Yeah, did your presence isneeded by a lot of people. And
through falling, I said, I will,as much as I can. How's that
been? So for months, it wasreally hard. Like I said, I
(16:00):
would start crying like halfwaythrough or right after church, I
would just cry. And I allowedmyself to just grieve. And it's
much better now. Because thestronger I get in who I am
without that, that does notidentify me, then the easier it
is to just go there and shine mylight and to be pure love for
(16:22):
everyone.
Yeah, what was the you said youwould grieve? What were you
grieving? I was grievingthe loss of everything. And like
I said, this is a very, verystrong generational thing. I
mean, this is the right way youfollow the Prophet, you do this,
you do that. And also, I feellike I had an even more strongly
because in my very, very earlychildhood years, I had my
(16:45):
biological father's influenceover my mother, who is who has
always been pretty extreme.
Fundamentalist. Yeah, mindset.
So I think that really affectedme more than more than I
realized. Yeah, from the womb?
Oh, absolutely. I know, there's,I've had conversations with a
(17:08):
decent amount of people thatthey have left or had some sort
of this is not this doesn'tresonate with me any longer, but
then they are told to stay, orthey choose to stay for whatever
reason. So it's alwaysfascinating, and why people
choose to stay in and there isthat I remember going through a
(17:28):
phase in my life, where you domiss the community, you miss
some aspects of it. And Iwondered, I actually had a
conversation with a beautifulfriend of mine, that she's like,
Yeah, I go to Relief Societyevery once in a while. And I'm
like, Really, you still stepinto that? She goes, yeah, it's
just community. I mean, it'sjust like any kind of a, if we
kind of detach from everythingthat's coming other mouse has to
(17:49):
be my ultimate truth, becausethat's where we once were.
Right. Yeah. And let it just beconnection and just being
experience. She's like, it canactually be quite beautiful.
Yeah, it really can. There's soso much beauty and light to it.
And, you know, I realized thatfor a lot of years, just because
of my ex husband's influence,which I'm forever grateful for,
(18:11):
I mean, he seriously raised meand all the ways that it wasn't
raised years. And it's been 16plus years that I've been
learning and programming. And soit's been a much longer process
that I've been less, almost likedependent on. I don't I don't
(18:32):
take things so seriously, iswhat I'm saying. But I do try to
take the treasures and the truthwherever I can. I should be just
as excited to go to the LDSchurch as I am to learn about
all these different religions,but I've been more understanding
lately and I love truth. Yeah.
It doesn't matter if theresource
(18:54):
one there is truth in all thingsand I find it I actually just
did another interview that I'mnot sure if I'm going to drop
his before yours. I'm stillsitting with that right now.
It's going to drop this week.
But we he's someone that hasdone a deep dive into the
scriptures and more like theaccurate translation which you
know, things like the Sermon onthe Mount, right? We're be there
(19:14):
for perfect and it's like, well,perfect actually was
mistranslated, its whole. And soit's just interesting. The you
know, there's that common sayingthat don't throw the baby out
with the bathwater or God, Godand Jesus aren't church, you
know, they're separate from it.
And when we start to kind ofdeconstruct those pieces of
(19:36):
because it is ingrained withinMormonism that it's the only
true church out there that hasthe complete, you know, whatever
on this earth. And if we stepout of that programming, can can
you I guess this is like arhetorical question for the
audience. Can you step into asituation like that and still
learn things take the parts thatresonate and leave the rest
(19:57):
aside because there is truth andbeauty In all things, whether
it's the Mormon Church,Catholics, Jews, you know,
wherever it is, there's truthand beauty and all things.
Yeah, I was thinking aboutrecently, you know, as I've
talked to my LDS friends, Istill have a lot of LDS friends,
my best friend is very much init, but she gets a lot more
(20:18):
angry about certain things thatare said over the pulpit than I
do. You know, she's like,someone says this, and, and,
like, Yeah, I'm a little more ofa, I've learned to be an
observer more, just kind of beentertained by it in a way, but
also have pure love. Because,you know, everybody has
programming, I have plenty of itleft to myself, and I still
(20:39):
judge just like everybody elseas well. So we can, we can let
that go. What I was thinking is,I'm kind of have always been a
rebel of when things are tooimbalanced, one way or too
extreme in one way I will,because I'm kind of like living
water, I'll bring in the balancewherever there's imbalance.
That's my natural gift and mynatural way. And so as I was
(21:03):
sitting in, in listening toactually, I think it was
President, he's got to be themission president, and that was
making this long. I mean, he'sperfectly still and perfectly
calm and perfectly competent inthe way that he expresses
himself. And I thought, Oh, mygoodness. That is, to me, as I
(21:29):
sat, and that word over there,they represented the divine
masculine. And what I'm bringingin is the divine feminine. And
that's why God wants me to stayin there, too, because it's just
as important. It'll, it'llbalance out things over time.
And I think there's plenty ofwomen that are filling in
boiling up within them as welland are speaking up. Yeah,
(21:50):
there's, there's little changesbeing made. But I think we've
been so competent in what we'vehad for so many, really,
centuries, but in the LDSchurch, you know, hundreds of
years that we just don'tquestion it. And I've had to
learn to discern, how do I feeltruth? How do I understand
(22:13):
truth, and for a lot of my life,with the very regimented,
extreme discipline that Idisplayed in every area of life,
that's why I started developingtalents, a lot of different
ones. And I was really young.
That was the divine masculinestepping in, I felt the spirit,
I felt that warmth, that burningwithin my heart so often. And I
felt the direction of thespirit, Do this, do that. And,
(22:34):
and so I still incorporated thatas I started raising my kids.
But I was so sleep deprived, andso burnt out all the time, that,
that I felt like that was mylifeline, studying my Scriptures
with my kids doing family nightpraying. And doing those core
things, teaching them how towork in the morning, doing their
(22:57):
chores, going to the park in theafternoon, reading to them a
lot, and making them good foodand things like that I was still
practicing self discipline, butI felt like such a failure
because there was no I couldn'tfeel spirit a lot of the time
because severe postpartumdepression and severe sleep
exhaustion. So I felt veryalone, I call that 14 years, my
(23:19):
Gethsemane or my dark night ofthe soul. And after so long of
that my uncle calls these yearsof child raising, he calls them
the pressure cooker, your careeryears, I think after 16 or 17
years of that I just completelyblew a gasket. And I said, I've
been doing all these things, butI'm not happy and I'm not a
(23:41):
piece. And there's got to besomething more to it. There came
a point where I started justletting go of certain things,
pressuring myself to do thingsjust right all the time. And
that's when I it was after mytotal nervous breakdown slash
rebirth, that I started juststepping into the void and
(24:05):
saying, It's okay, I can learnto be comfortable in the cold in
the dark, and I can bring like,and interestingly, I didn't know
this about myself before, but Ilove being in cold water as
often as I possibly can, goingswimming, walking in streams to
waterfalls and, and splashing inpuddles when it's raining. That
is my happy place. And I do feelmore happy and more at peace
(24:29):
overall than I ever did when Iwas doing everything just right
and so to fill the contrast ofthat, that old way that is also
very important. The LDS churchdoes things by a certain
rulebook and that is the divinemasculine and so they have it
down very strongly and that'swhy when a lot of people listen
(24:50):
to the speakers and everythingthat burning that warmth, that
that feeling of this isconsistent This is stable is
right there and So it'simportant for us now to bring in
also the divine feminine. Andthat is, to me, the gathering of
Israel or the union that'sstarting to take place. And it's
(25:13):
interesting because my littlebrother that was adopted, I was
his first Mom, he stillconsiders me a mother figure. He
calls me whenever he'sstruggling. He's in his early
20s. He was checking out theCatholic church, I was really
drawn to it more recently, he'slike, I'm gonna get baptized in
the Catholic Church. And Ithought, Hmm, I wonder why he's
drawn to that. And I thought,you know, the emphasize grace, a
(25:36):
lot more than our church. Andthat's probably what he's
needing. As far as life. Afterbeing raised by our parents,
we're very, very strict andvery, again, divine masculine.
You do it this way. You do itthis way. This is the right way.
Right? This and this and this,and it'll be fine.
You know, I, how do I want tophrase this, I as I'm listening
(26:00):
to you, and I recently had aconversation with another woman
who went through somethingsimilar to where she was doing
all the things she was supposedto do, right. And, and within
that religion, it is taught thatwhen you do these things, you
will be blessed when you do the,you know, by the by the book
kind of things, family home,evening scriptures, prayers, you
know, you will be blessed. And,and we had an interesting
(26:25):
conversation about that, becauseit's simply not true. But there
is what I feel this is myAmanda's take on this is that it
creates a false sense of safety,that we think that if we do
these things, or we're taughtthat if we do these things that
we will be protected, we will besafe, we will be blessed. And
the truth is, is is that that'sanywhere in the world, we have
(26:46):
these things that we don't do,because or we do do because they
give us a false sense of safety.
And yeah, it's always that Ilove some of the things that
you're sharing about withasking, how do you understand
spirit? How do you discern foryou, Rachel, for you, not from
outside of you, but for you. Andeven that safety piece is
something that if everything wasstripped away from any of us,
(27:06):
would we be so in knowing who weare that we could still feel
safe within ourselves ifeverything was gone? Yes. And
yeah.
And that's where the DivineFeminine comes in, when that one
made that comment yesterday,because it was all one way, one
way, one way. And then Mr.
President, was saying his piece,and then she came in and made
(27:27):
her comment, and it was chills,there's the divine feminine, the
recognition of truth there. Andyou're, you're totally right.
And that I talked to my 18 yearold son all the time, I said,
you're not really living, if youthink you depend on this, and
that, you know, you've got thisfalse sense of security. And
that's the main thing with my exhusband and the way that he does
(27:50):
things. He had this set way ofbeing with me as well, like, I
was just easygoing, and I woulddo whatever doesn't make me and
a subservient wife. And themoment that I started
approaching him in a very gentleway, again, very filtered, and
telling him when you say this,or when you act like this, I
(28:11):
feel this way. And that way,that way, the rug was pulled out
from under him, and he startedlashing out like crazy and, and
becoming not only mentallyabusive, but physically abusive.
And and so that's the problem isthat eventually the rug will be
pulled out from under each of usand, and when I hear people
speak, especially men in thechurch that are so confident and
(28:33):
so perfectly, like, wow, theyhaven't had that happen yet.
Yeah.
Are all of our come to Jesusmoments of like, false truths
and what real truth is, and I,when you speak to the feminine,
the masculine and my, in myexperience, and what I believe
to be very true is that thefeminine the masculine actually
(28:54):
lives within each of us. Youknow, you could look at the
structure of the body, or thethings like the blood pumping,
and the like, the actualstructure of the physical body
is more of the masculine energy,the flow of the blood pumping,
the flow of the breath, moving,the flow within the container is
more of that feminine energy.
And that's what is alive withineach of us. Because we often
think because I'm a woman, thenI only get to have this divine
(29:16):
feminine cycle that in my beliefin my knowing that's not true,
we get both the feminine and themasculine within each of us. And
so I think it's it is there isan imbalance in a lot of ways
and a lot of pieces that we'reall trying to figure out, which
I think is really, reallybeautiful to bring more balance
into all things even withinreligion would be quite
(29:37):
refreshing. Yeah,it really wanted to Yeah, you're
right. It's interesting, too,though, but I'm seeing the
energetic representation of thatvery divided with men and women
in at least in that wordyesterday when but, but yeah, I
know we've got it. I mean,obviously, we're trying to
(29:58):
create that balance. withinourselves, I was just thinking
back to when I was 13. And Iwent through puberty, I had
already taken on a verymasculine representation of
myself from the age of firstgrade. Because to me, boys were
tough, and they were vulnerable.
(30:18):
And I had grown to hate my ownvulnerability. So that's when I
think I formed that side of methat was extremely athletic.
Like, from the very beginning, Iwent out, and to a brand new
school in first grade and wentout and all the boys were like,
she can't play. She's a girl wewere still in. So I go out to
the baseball field, and I go tohit it, and I swing and miss the
(30:40):
first time. The second time Ihit it way out there.
So that's so cute. So yeah, I, Ilooked at myself on a video when
I was 12 years old, and watchthe way I walk. And I have a
super short hair like I do now,actually. But obviously, I've
embraced my feminine side a lotmore. But just talking and
(31:04):
walking, and I really did havelike my first crush on a girl.
And I wished to be a boy,especially when I was going
through puberty. I had suchanger toward for some reason,
the feminine within me that hadbeen hurt so badly from early
childhood that I had, like, theworst menstrual cramps, like the
(31:27):
worst. I mean, I'd be shakingand going into shock and
throwing up and everything likethat. And I think a lot of that
was psychological stuff that Ihadn't worked through.
Oh, I bet. I bet. So did you Ithink you mentioned that you
were military wife, right? Yeah.
So did youmove around a lot. Every two
years and half the time it wasout of state.
(31:47):
Were like an out of out of theUnited States ever or all
all women we I I knew that my mylifeline would be being able to
travel to family. So I did. Whenmy kids were younger, I would go
every four months out of stateto go visit family just feel
connected and get a break.
Well, I can. I can imaginemoving that often having
(32:10):
religion having the Mormonchurch was a lifeline. Yes.
Like, yeah, you always knew yourcommunity. Even if it was new.
You always knew you hadsomewhere to go.
Yeah, it was, although I hadplenty of interesting
experiences good and bad.
Because Dan and I have alwaysbeen outside of the box
thinkers?
Yeah. So you probably ruffledsome feathers, depending on
(32:31):
which board you went into. Yeah,exactly. But yeah, that that had
to be a gift. I know, I moved alittle bit when I was younger,
and it was a gift to know, okay,I have I know where my community
is, you know, it's within thewalls of this Mormon, Mormon
church, and I would be welcomed.
And I was really grateful forthat. And it was nice to to have
an experience outside of Utah. Imean, one of my first
(32:54):
experiences was in Germany.
Actually, that's not true, as inVirginia, but in Germany, you
know, and having because wewould go to the military Ward
out there, because it wasEnglish speaking. Even though
my, my ex, my husband at thetime, he wasn't he was, it
wasn't a military thing. He wasGerman. So it was nice to be
able to step into that and belike, Oh, my gosh, just people
from all over. And everybody's alot more open minded. And
(33:16):
anyway,it was I loved it. Yeah, that's
so cool.
Yeah, I really love that. Sowe're where you're at today is
that, from everything that I'mhearing, the things that you
have gone through, have reallyultimately taught you more about
you. How to hear your own voicewith God. And and you're
(33:37):
choosing still to go.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Becausethere's, there's too much of
good stuff like I, I just itseriously, it formed a lot of
who I am, I mean, reading theBook of Mormon, and I didn't
listen, a lot of the time. Asmatter of fact, when I was in
Sunday school, when I was1314 15, I would be very
(33:58):
participative. Because I waslike, really deeply pondering,
as I studied my scriptures andpraying for the Spirit to guide
me to understand what it meantand how I can apply it. And so
there were so many more, moredeep and more whole
understandings that came as aresult of that. And so I was, at
that age, I was veryparticipative. But since then,
(34:19):
it seems like the most themajority of the classes that I
attend, are stuck in that samewell, they're there. They're not
even to where it was that youjust 1516 Because I think my
that is my main gift is tounderstand, I have an
understanding spirit. That'skind of a superpower like me,
(34:42):
you have to experience a lot ofdifferent things to be able to
understand. But just my abilityto communicate with to hear
God's voice and to communicatewith him and understanding how
that works. So I've always beeninto symbolism and metaphors and
things like that, and I'vealways just pondered on those
things. steeply. Yeah. I loveit. I mean, I eat it up all the
(35:03):
time. So it's gonna be when theyask questions nowadays, and I'm
like, that's a question thatasked when I was 13 years old.
And I explained to like what Ihad learned from the Scriptures.
And it feels like they're stuckin a lot of ways, because I feel
like the majority of themhaven't really spent. You. I
(35:26):
don't know. I, it feels like mypride gets in the way. But in
this way, I was very, verygifted. And, and it kind of bugs
me that they're so stuck in thesame, like, oh, we need to learn
this. And I'm like, womenthrough being mothers, you
already know this. And you haveso much more insight. Yeah, I'm
(35:47):
happy when the women generallyspeak up, because there's so
much they can offer. And it's sofunny that so many of the men,
especially the leaders, thathave been leaders, for a long
time, are very, very competent,and the women are just like, are
shaking the Royces and more theowner authority, and that's
probably why I'm here. And maybewhen I learned her, because I'm
(36:09):
still working on that, you know,that's a brand new thing for me
to even think that maybe when Iset the example, then others
will start following suit. Idon't know.
I think that's beautiful. I, Ihave to ask, I'm curious why you
reached out to do a podcastabout leaving religion if you're
still choosing in.
I mean, I'm not a member. Andit's like, I am a member. It's
(36:33):
the exact same thing. It'sfunny, because these are
parallel things that happened tome the same time. I got
divorced. I'm not married tohim. Yeah, him and my children
are still my family. Yeah. SoI'm not married to the church.
But for a long time, I've beendoing things my own way. I hate
being assigned to somebody toserve. It's like, No, I'm gonna
(36:53):
go by the Spirit. And people aregoing to be drawn to me, and I'm
going to be drawn to them. Yeah.
So I've always been kind of arebel of the way things are
done. And that's probably whythe marriage was so hard to
because he's very much that way.
Yeah. Things have to be done acertain
way. Yeah. I think it's alwaysfascinating. I had another
podcast interview a while ago,where she's like, I don't
(37:15):
identify as Mormon. And yet shewent to church every Sunday. In
fact, I believe she had her shewore garments, she did all the
things that she's like, but Idon't identify as being a
Mormon. And it was like, mybrain was like, I don't care. I
don't understand that, like, Idon't like you're doing all the
things is it for Mormon, andyet, you're saying you are not
Mormon. So it is just adifferent way of being with it,
(37:38):
which I think is beautiful. Whenyou find what works for you. And
how you want to navigate lifewith religion without religion
with spirituality. Withoutspirituality. I think it's quite
beautiful when you listen toyour, your voice, your inner
knowing, and then you act uponthat, even if it doesn't make
sense.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it makesperfect sense to me. Now, I love
(38:01):
the temple. But I have templesacred experiences all the time,
wherever I am. Wherever youstand, you can stand in holy
places. So I don't love thatthey emphasize so much and
create this almost totaldependence on the brick and
mortar and the way of you needto study your scriptures.
(38:22):
There's all kinds of resourcesthat you can study all kinds of
good books and differentreligions and different cultures
and documentaries andeverything. Yeah. To understand
truth more fully, right? It'skind of silly to say you must do
it, you must only do this everysingle day. So that pray,
(38:44):
rebelled against a lot. Butyeah, but I'm there to do that.
Another one of the things thatI've always been told you're
doing that wrong, like ifsomebody is classically trained,
for example, in piano or insinging, I tend to do things,
almost the opposite. And whatI'm realizing is that I, I'm
(39:04):
kind of a lot of the embodimentof the divine feminine. That's
probably why I trigger a lot ofpeople. Yeah, I am the undoing
of all the, all the BS. And so,so yeah, it's interesting. How
can being taught the differentmotions and energy just the
spiraling up and down and theunscrewing? I think it was a few
(39:28):
months ago, I was unscrewingsomething. I'm like, Oh, this is
the divine feminine, theunscrewing of and then you put
back together in a more completeway, and then you're screwed.
And that's the divine masculine.
Mm hmm. That's beautiful. Well,is there anything else about
your story you would love toshare?
Um, yeah, actually, um, I waspregnant with my second baby.
(39:54):
And this is my all of my friendsand family. know about this, but
he was pondering and searchingfor himself. And honestly, He's
not the type to, like do that tolike inquire of God. He has he's
a genius mind, brilliant mind,he solves problems in his mind.
(40:16):
He's very independent that way.
And so I was surprised to findthat he was saying, Okay, how
can we guard our boys from beingtrapped in the addictions, such
as pornography that are outthere in the world? And he was
thinking about that. And hestarted just scrolling online
and found this group callednaked and not afraid. Oh,
(40:40):
interesting. And so he went onthe website and started reading
his like, an E dismiss. And hecame to me with it after he had
studied a lot and read a lot ofthe reviews of the people who
had chosen to implement this,this open door open discussion,
open minded, you know, thingwithin their family. And he
(41:05):
said, you know, all the familiesthat row on there, they said,
you know, my teenage daughter,we've, we've grown up this way,
we keep the doors open, and forshowering, whatever, it's not a
big deal, come in and say, Oh,ask a question go right out.
There's no shame involved.
There's no obsession, thing. Andthey were saying that, like they
(41:26):
teenage daughters, they didn'tworry about them at all, because
they honored their bodies enoughthat they didn't even I mean,
they were oversized T shirts andjeans. That's how my daughters
are my teenage daughters.
They're very much that way.
That's how they feelcomfortable. And they are very
strong and competent in theirbody image, there is no body
shame. I mean, they know thatthey're beautiful, and they hold
(41:46):
it sacred as well. And so Dan islike, I want this kind of
result. And it because itbasically race races the shape
and brings in a healthy view ofour bodies. Yeah. And and it's
that shame cycle, which he hadlearned because he had done a
lot of studying about whypornography, have such a hold on
people. And so he startedtalking to me about this. And my
(42:11):
programming went right in, and Istarted just, oh, this is so
wrong. Let me find what theprophets have said about it, and
the scriptures and everything.
And I couldn't find anything.
And not only that, but Iimmediately realized, because I
do have a very extensive heart.
When he was speaking to me aboutthis, I felt peace. And when I
was arguing against him, I feltcontention. And that was
(42:32):
probably the first time in ourmarriage where it wasn't the
opposite. Because Because I feltpeace when I was speaking truth
if I was standing up to him whenhe was being contentious. And so
I thought, okay, there'ssomething to this. And so I, we
both decided to pray and fastabout this decision for our
(42:54):
family, where we would have justopen communication about
everything and basically beraised exact opposite the way
that I was raised. And we bothattended the temple about three
weeks after really like, we werestudying our scriptures
together. We were praying everyday, we were asking the Lord, is
this the right way to raise ourfamily. And we went to the
(43:16):
temple together. And we kneltaround the altar to do the group
prayer. And the the personpraying said, if there are any
questions or needs that areneeding to be answered or met,
that they will be it was a lotmore eloquent than that. And
(43:36):
right at that moment, later on,we were talking about it but
both of us received a definitewitness that yes, well, you've
been inquiring of me is theright way. Yeah, your family.
And we looked at each other haveto apparent like, whoa, what?
And so we we decided to go,because, again, we're very open
(43:57):
minded. We love studying aboutall different cultures. And he
had served as mission in France.
And of course, there's newbeaches everywhere, and it's not
a big deal. So we decided toactually go to a nude beach
where we lived. And we did andthat's actually what got our
temporary men's taken away for afew months. But the experience
(44:19):
was so amazing. Because here weare these bright white
people and they're all these. Imean, the majority of them are
like, very, very overweight,super tan and probably mid 50s
and 60s. So funny. And they'reout there playing volleyball.
They're like, You guys want tocome play. It was just, I didn't
just just very friendlycommunity. We went and played.
(44:41):
And I remember there was acamera guy, there was a guy that
was in a distance he peed frombehind a hill and had a camera
and immediately to the people.
The first one being a womanstarted yelling and get out of
here, get out of here and one ofthe men started going toward him
too, because it was a sacredspace, and they were they were
protecting us and them and, andit was seriously one of the most
(45:04):
life altering experiences. Yeah.
You know when because they livedin Germany and you brought up
France, you know, in Europe,their culture is in fact, my
husband, I were just talkingabout this not that long ago,
their culture is very openminded about sex and about the
physical body. And it is likeyou're talking about, there's no
(45:27):
shame around it, it just is,this is who we are, we were born
naked into this world. And thenwe put on clothes and we cover
up and, and we do all thesepieces. And then we create this
interesting dynamic. And when,when my husband, I were having
this conversation, I was askinghim, I would be curious to know
the amount of divorce thathappens because of adultery, or
(45:48):
pornography or the thingscompared to the United States.
Because I would bet it's a lotless, I would bet that I went to
this retreat that was called Sexperience. And it was we dove
into the shame around sex andour sexuality and our desires
that most of us hide andsuppress. And when we do that,
it creates all sorts of shame.
And it's that lowest frequencyand what would happen,
(46:10):
especially with our partners, ifwe allow ourselves to be fully
seen in these spaces, and ninetimes out of 10, even just
talking about this desire, orthis impulse, or this thing that
we feel like is wrong, justtalking about it, all of a
sudden, it just clears it out.
Like it's not even activeanymore. And, and yet we have
(46:31):
created such a culture,especially within the Mormon
church, and really a lot ofreligions, but especially the
Mormon church were with theMormon garments, and the
covering up and the, you know,needing to be modest. And it's
like, I love that you're sharingthis, like if we can teach our
children and, and have thatbeautiful. There's no shame,
(46:52):
even if I have cellulite, andI'm a little overweight, and I
love that it's like it's mostly50 and six year olds that are
out there that are, you know,enjoying and living up life and
just embracing and having thatfreedom of being seen fully.
They get it is quite, it isquite beautiful. So thank you
for sharing that. I think that'syeah, that's beautiful.
Yeah, I kind of wanted to sharethe after effects of that with
(47:15):
the church and also my familymembers. And yeah, there was a
huge flashback because I had my18 year old sister and also my
mission return missionary sisterover, they came to visit me
while we were living in LosAngeles, which is when this was
all going down, I had gonethrough a miscarriage and I was
having pretty severe postpartumdepression on top of everything
(47:38):
but but I was so excited becauseDan was kind of deciphering
between. Okay, I've actuallytried viewing pornography before
he said, and he said, it justmakes me feel icky, and off and
a little dark and not a feelingthat I want. But then he pulled
up these pictures of thesewomen, there's like these nature
(47:59):
pictures from the 70s wherethey're just like, standing in
the nude. And just like lookingat nature and like holding a
butterfly or a bird or, orwhatever. And they're surrounded
by nature. And he's like, when Ilook at these, I just, I feel
total, like respect and an aweand honor. You know, and he
said, I, there's a totalcontrast between these two
(48:22):
things. And I was excited toshare that too. Because I was I
felt a little shame in lookingat those the nature pictures,
and I have never, never seen anykind of pornography. And I don't
want to but I looked at thosepictures. I was like, not
wanting to look but because Ihave always been bisexual, you
(48:44):
know, I'm very attracted towomen that way. And, and so I
allowed myself to look at it andbe like, yeah, like I feel
reverence and honor to it'sbeautiful. It really is. So
anyway, I I was so excited aboutthis because I had felt the
light and the peace that wasflowing. And I knew many many
(49:04):
years later that yes, despitewhat all of my family and Bishop
and everyone had said, look atthe results that this has
yielded like I have absolutelyno body shame. And I've taught
my daughters that very strongly.
But my 18 year old sister wenthome and told my mom, she was
horrified at what I had sharedwith her. I probably I bet the
alarms were going off and I wassharing as usual, being
(49:27):
concerned about her kids eternalsalvation, right. I called my
bishop and told him well, youjust correct them in this. And
so here's our bishop is like3037 28 years old, okay, been
married for quite a while but nokids. And he calls us in and we
(49:47):
tell him all that we'veexperienced. And he said, Well,
don't go to a nudist resort orbeach again or I'll have to take
away your temper. recommends.
And Dan was like, well, we can'tpromise that because that's a
personal decision between mywife and I, and yeah, that we
prayed about and that wereceived our answer. And so the
(50:10):
bishop said, Okay, well, I'mgonna have your recommends. So
each week you'd meet with us andsay, Okay, I need you to go
home, study your scriptures andpray and come back. And we'll
see if you have not he didn'tsay this part, the right answer.
Each week that we went home anddid this, the confirmation was
stronger. Like, yes, that'sright for our family.
(50:31):
Interesting. And so that was myfirst experience of going
completely against leadership,but knowing in my heart that God
had directly spoken to me andsaid, Yeah, right.
That's beautiful. I love thatyou're sharing these stories of
like those pieces of I know, Iknow what's true for me, even if
it goes against the church'sstandards, even if it goes
(50:53):
against these pieces. It's likeit is truth. And I have to honor
that I get to honor that. Yeah,that's beautiful. Well, thank
you for sharing. Is thereanything else that you feel
called to share before we weend? No. Beautiful. Well, thank
you. Like I said, already, Ijust appreciate you and your
(51:14):
vulnerability and courage andall these pieces of you that you
have shared with us. It's, it'sreally beautiful. So I
appreciate you, Rachel, thankyou for saying yes,
thanks, appreciate it.
What a unique interview, and Ididn't realize that she was
still attending church. And Ithink it's beautiful to hear
different experiences, andreally what feels like truth for
(51:37):
anyone and everyone, I don'tcare who you are, what you're
choosing as long as it feelslike true to you. And you're
always questioning that andchecking in. I think that it is
absolutely beautiful, and what abeautiful example of what that
can look like. So if you are inthe process of unwinding out of
religion and looking for moretools, head over to Amazon and
grab my book leaving religionand those we leave behind, or go
(52:00):
to my website and pick up myleaving religion tools. These
are some really beautiful toolsto assist you in more of the
unwinding, winding process and Iwill put both of those links
down below the tools is if youhead to my website, a manager I
live on.com forward slashleaving religion tools, you will
find those there. And thenagain, just a reminder to to
(52:22):
come if you're feeling the callto join us for this embody
experience. We are closing theapplications at the end of this
month. So get your applicationin. If you are selected as one
of the 13 people then you get tocheck in and tune in to what
feels in alignment to donate sothat you can be a part of this
experience. And so head over tomy website Amanda loveland.com
(52:43):
forward slash inbody. That'sAmanda loveland.com forward
slash i n b o d y and as always,wherever you are sending you so
much love if you are feeling thecall to be one of my guests.
Reach out to me and let's have aconversation. have such a
beautiful day.
Welcome, welcome, welcome. I am excited to share
this episode with you as it is apart two of Rachel's interview.
And I know that after our lastinterview, which was a few weeks
ago, there was a lot ofwondering more of her story. So
she said yes to interviewing asecond time and actually sharing
a little bit more of her herstory, and I am so excited to
(00:27):
share this with you. And beforewe dive in just a reminder of my
upcoming inbody experience thatI am co facilitating with three
other amazing women, September26 22nd, through the 25th. And
that will be in Springdale,Utah. And guess what? Something
actually really, man, when youlisten to spirit, and you're
(00:49):
you're tuning in, and alwayskind of asking how things get to
be a little different. It'salways funny and interesting,
the things that show up. So thisretreat experience is converting
to a donation based. And so weare tuning in and trusting the
divine and trusting all of you.
And so, we are, you get to gothrough and do a few steps,
(01:12):
because we will have a lot ofpeople applying and we only have
room for 13 people, there is aquestionnaire to go through and
a few steps to to do and then ifyou are selected, then you get
to tune in and check in with youand your connection to the
divine and you get to pay whatfeels in alignment for you. Some
people it may, you know, be alot less than others. And that
(01:34):
is okay, we are trusting thisexperience and trusting this
opportunity to have a newrelationship with money and
reciprocity. So if you arewanting to attend and join us,
head over to my website, Amandajoy loveland.com, forward slash
inbody. That's INBOD. Why, asAmanda J loveland.com, forward
(01:55):
slash, I n, b, o d y and justfollow the steps to the website.
And yeah, we would love love tohave you this is going to be a
really, really beautifulexperience. So with all of that
being said, let's dive into thisinterview with Rachel Wheeler. I
had my I've never done anepisode like that, where we just
(02:16):
kind of even though I've beenwanting to because you're not
the only one that has everybodythat I talked to has something.
And so and so I thought was justbeautiful, a that you allowed
yourself to be seen in thatspace, and just had the courage
to lean in. So again, I justwant to thank you for that. And
on top of that, I I really feellike by you doing that it gives
(02:39):
others permission to just beseen. And that's what I was
doing. My real about thismorning is it's you know, we get
into the such a state of beingneeding to be perfect and have
shit together all the time. Andit's like, nobody does, I don't
care who you are. Anyway, sothank you for that. And I was
listening to it on the way downwith my husband, we headed down
(02:59):
south and he's like, I reallywant to know more about her. And
I'm like, you know, I wasthinking about doing a part two.
So when he said that, that'swhere I'm like, Alright, I need
to reach out because that washis thing is like, I want to
know more about her story,because it sounds like she's got
quite a story. So thank you foragreeing to do a part two. So I
know on our last episode, youkind of touched on a few things
(03:22):
with your with your story. Butyou were were you raised in
Utah. Were you in Idaho? Youwere in Utah. Born and raised
Mormon. Yeah. How was that?
Yeah,it was good overall. I mean, I
still to this day, primary songsand hymns run through my mind
all the time to give me littlemessages of comfort and things
(03:44):
like that. I loved the cultureand an amazing childhood. My
parents were very, very strict,but also very consistent. And my
mom was pretty attentive.
Overall. She kind of spoiled me,because I'm kind of like the
little version of her the sidethat she loved. I was spoiled.
(04:08):
And, yeah, my mom was absolutelyamazing. I mean, she would get
down on the floor. From the timewe were a little tiny and just
be playing with us teaching ushow to color and draw and she
would be out playing sports withus and teaching us just all
different skills. So my siblingsand I were very well rounded and
very talented, very creative.
(04:30):
I love that. So you were youmarried later on in the church?
Yeah. So I grew up in thechurch, and then I graduated
high school and went off tocollege, but things kind of fell
apart. I went, I actually wentoff to college on a full ride
scholarship, throwing thejavelin. Oh, sweet. And I got
(04:53):
the opportunity. It's funnybecause my older sister she
would do things and I justadmired her and so I would be an
icon I want to try that too,just as an endearing thing. But
she did it every time. And atone point during high school,
she's like, Stop copying me,because I would go and try
something that she loved to do.
And I was just really, reallygood at anything. So when I was
13, she joined the track team.
(05:18):
So I'm like, oh, that soundslike fun. Maybe I could try
something. And I saw the deviland I went out and I tried
everything at least once. Butthe javelin, I threw it. And it
spun over itself, because Ididn't know what I was doing.
But I was two feet away fromqualifying for state throwing it
that first time, wow. And then,three short weeks later, I think
(05:40):
I was 1413 or 14, I heard thatthere was the Junior Olympics
happening in Illinois. And mytrack coach is like, we're gonna
fly you out. You're going to theJunior Olympics straight now. So
I ended up winning a gold medalin the Junior Olympics. That's
amazing. And then, but anyway,so I grew up, LDS, but I'd moved
(06:08):
to new place during this 12 and13. Year, and had a lot of
bullying because I was no longerknown by the group of friends
that I had. And so I becamereally, really shy. I was having
bullying from all differentsources, like on the bus at
(06:28):
school, all different groups ofboys were bullying me. So I
became extremely shy wasn't thatsame happy go lucky, outgoing,
silly, creative, whatever. Ijust allowed myself to be before
that. Anyway, I was, I learnedthat through puberty, that I was
kind of terrified of men. Likewhen the boys started having
(06:50):
their voices change, all of asudden, I found myself extremely
intimidated and felt like the,like, I just stayed away from
him. I was scared to death ofmen in general. And that
definitely, I think, the wholepuberty transition plus that
triggered something within methat I didn't know was there. So
(07:11):
I didn't really date in highschool at all. But then when I
was 18, and I started well, 17and started attending college.
Then guys started asking me out,well, I turned 18 In October,
just a couple months later. Andso I started going out on little
dates here and there. And thenI, my parents moved to Colorado,
right after I graduated highschool at 17. And so I went back
(07:35):
for my full ride scholarship atUVU. It was UPSC, then, but it'd
be you. And within two and ahalf months, things just
completely fell apart.
Everything was going wrong.
Yeah, I lost my wallet. I misseda major test. And a couple other
things that made me lose myscholar ship. No, no, sorry, I
(07:58):
did that full year. And then itwas the following year that I
went back and things fell apart.
I might be remembering detailswrong. But my parents started
doing foster nanny during thattime. And I was their full time
foster nanny for a while. Andthen I was going to school off
and on and, and workingotherwise babysitting and things
like that off and on. So at age1920, and 21, I think I was
(08:21):
either attending college online,or going to community college in
person there. And also takingcare of my, my parents, foster
kids. And I wanted to serve amission at 21. So I filled out
(08:43):
all the paperwork, and I wasgoing home. I mean, at age 13,
because of the bullying, Istarted praying, like every
morning and every night. I'mstudying my scriptures every
morning and really trying to getto know God, and what his
purpose was for me. And so I hadbeen doing that the whole time
till 22. Whenever those littleseminary things came around, it
(09:06):
was like, I have read myscriptures for 30 days, I've
read my scriptures for 90 days,you know, 120 days, every time I
just wouldn't have my parentssign it because it was like, no
questions asked, you know, thatwas my lifeline. Yeah, to make
sure that I could feel connectedto God and kind of hear his
voice to be able to help or seeif I saw a need for service or
(09:29):
being able to see people for whothey truly were. That was the
gifts that I was honing in onfor all those years. And also
learning wisdom through thescriptures and through being
connected.
Anyway, so yeah, I was wantingto submission because that was
(09:50):
all me I had been like a fulltime missionary the way that I
was living my standards andeverything for many years by
then. And any chance I got I didtry to share the book more
random things like that withother people. So I filled out
all the application, did mydoctor appointment, even did
pictures for my mission, andthen was gonna send it in. But I
(10:13):
prayed about it. And the sameanswer kept coming that marriage
was next. And motherhood wasnext. And that was my mission.
So be patient a little longer isthe answer I received. And I
never sent it in. And, and but Ialso tried to move out and just
(10:33):
go get roommates at my parents,my dad had been laid off from
Novell, after so many years ofworking because he didn't have a
bachelor's degree. And so theywere really struggling
financially. And so they werehaving me kind of take care of
the foster kids, while theytried to get ahead a little bit
because they were in major debt.
And so they were like, we reallyneeded they would talk me out of
(10:56):
every time I tried to leave at820 and 21. So I stayed
there. Until that had to behard.
Yeah. And, and then I, I wasdating quite a bit, off and on.
And I ended up meeting Dan, theone that I was married to for 18
years, when I was 20. And thenwe started dating the beginning
(11:20):
of the next year. And ended upgetting married within six
months of knocking each othermarry in the temple and then did
the Mormon thingfor a while. Yeah, so yeah,
we're very active LDS. I mean, Iraised my kids the same way.
Meaning we were very active. Andwe still are actually, I still
(11:43):
go to church with them all thetime. And they go to the all the
activities and stuff like that.
But the cool thing is, is thatDan, from the beginning of our
marriage, kind of questioned whyI did things. And that helped me
to not just do things because myparents did them or out of
tradition, or this is just theright thing. Yeah. So we both
(12:06):
have raised them in a way that'svery pro freewill. That's good.
Think outside the box. Sudo,explore whatever you need to
explore. And my emphasis for mykids is adult, just make sure
that your piece is intact. Ifthere's something that's robbing
you of your peace and,obviously, don't go toward that
(12:30):
so much.
Yeah. Did you say they're stillactive LDS? Are you
and and I am, I pretty much gowhen I want. But I'm pretty
active still. Yeah, I, the wordwhere I kind of got kicked out
is night and day difference fromthe word that I actually moved
into. Yeah, I went this firstSunday to the new board. And the
(12:53):
comments that were made inSunday school, I'm like, these
people are real and raw. Andthey're not afraid to make that
this is the this is an awesomegroup of people. Yeah, that's
refreshing. And then I went backto their ward yesterday, my
where my kids are in theboundaries, they just live down
the road, by the way. Andokay, do I have anything to
(13:16):
contribute here? Do I haveanything to receive here? Yeah.
And the spirit was just like, Imean, it's your choice. Because
there have been so many timeswhere I've been so triggered at
their word that I've just like,gone home. And it's been a
release, like I bought, yeah, orhalfway through, I start
bawling, because there's so muchof it's too much of programming
(13:42):
this much. And it's a lot.
And but at the very, very end ofyesterday's Sunday school
lesson, I stuck with it. And atthe very end, I was actually
able to make a comment. Andthere was another woman that
made a comment, and I totallygot the chills and like, yes,
divine feminine coming right inThank you. You know, because
they were focusing on how 18year old boys need to be serving
(14:05):
missions, and how can weencourage them to do that? And
she came right in, she said,everyone's got their own path.
And we need to, you know,honored that somewhat, she said
that. And I was like, yes, thankyou. We need the balance. It's
not just, it's my 18 year oldson was in there. And he's not
(14:25):
in a mental state to be able togo serve a mission. I'm like,
maybe in a year, if you feel upto it, and you really feel
motivated, then a servicemission, right. But it's a lot
you have to know why you'redoing it. It's not an easy
thing, and be really strong inthe work that you're doing to
get out there and do it. SoSo in our last interview, you
had mentioned that you kind ofyou pretty much got kicked out
(14:48):
so I Yeah, because of that, thatstory that you shared with with
you just moving through some ofthose pieces within you. And
you're still choosing to go Goto church.
Yes, because there was a pointwhere I was bawling out of grief
for all that I had lost just theideal. I mean, the marriage was
(15:11):
absolutely miserable for me. Butjust I had lost the marriage and
the ideal family unit. And, youknow, and also the community, I
thought I'd lost the community.
And yeah, everything that myparents and grandparents, you
know, this is the right way thisthe right way, this the right
way. So I was just grieving. AndGod or the Holy Spirit came
(15:36):
right in and said, Rachel,please stay needed for the
changes that need to be made.
Yeah, did your presence isneeded by a lot of people. And
through falling, I said, I will,as much as I can. How's that
been? So for months, it wasreally hard. Like I said, I
(16:00):
would start crying like halfwaythrough or right after church, I
would just cry. And I allowedmyself to just grieve. And it's
much better now. Because thestronger I get in who I am
without that, that does notidentify me, then the easier it
is to just go there and shine mylight and to be pure love for
(16:22):
everyone.
Yeah, what was the you said youwould grieve? What were you
grieving? I was grievingthe loss of everything. And like
I said, this is a very, verystrong generational thing. I
mean, this is the right way youfollow the Prophet, you do this,
you do that. And also, I feellike I had an even more strongly
because in my very, very earlychildhood years, I had my
(16:45):
biological father's influenceover my mother, who is who has
always been pretty extreme.
Fundamentalist. Yeah, mindset.
So I think that really affectedme more than more than I
realized. Yeah, from the womb?
Oh, absolutely. I know, there's,I've had conversations with a
(17:08):
decent amount of people thatthey have left or had some sort
of this is not this doesn'tresonate with me any longer, but
then they are told to stay, orthey choose to stay for whatever
reason. So it's alwaysfascinating, and why people
choose to stay in and there isthat I remember going through a
(17:28):
phase in my life, where you domiss the community, you miss
some aspects of it. And Iwondered, I actually had a
conversation with a beautifulfriend of mine, that she's like,
Yeah, I go to Relief Societyevery once in a while. And I'm
like, Really, you still stepinto that? She goes, yeah, it's
just community. I mean, it'sjust like any kind of a, if we
kind of detach from everythingthat's coming other mouse has to
(17:49):
be my ultimate truth, becausethat's where we once were.
Right. Yeah. And let it just beconnection and just being
experience. She's like, it canactually be quite beautiful.
Yeah, it really can. There's soso much beauty and light to it.
And, you know, I realized thatfor a lot of years, just because
of my ex husband's influence,which I'm forever grateful for,
(18:11):
I mean, he seriously raised meand all the ways that it wasn't
raised years. And it's been 16plus years that I've been
learning and programming. And soit's been a much longer process
that I've been less, almost likedependent on. I don't I don't
(18:32):
take things so seriously, iswhat I'm saying. But I do try to
take the treasures and the truthwherever I can. I should be just
as excited to go to the LDSchurch as I am to learn about
all these different religions,but I've been more understanding
lately and I love truth. Yeah.
It doesn't matter if theresource
(18:54):
one there is truth in all thingsand I find it I actually just
did another interview that I'mnot sure if I'm going to drop
his before yours. I'm stillsitting with that right now.
It's going to drop this week.
But we he's someone that hasdone a deep dive into the
scriptures and more like theaccurate translation which you
know, things like the Sermon onthe Mount, right? We're be there
(19:14):
for perfect and it's like, well,perfect actually was
mistranslated, its whole. And soit's just interesting. The you
know, there's that common sayingthat don't throw the baby out
with the bathwater or God, Godand Jesus aren't church, you
know, they're separate from it.
And when we start to kind ofdeconstruct those pieces of
(19:36):
because it is ingrained withinMormonism that it's the only
true church out there that hasthe complete, you know, whatever
on this earth. And if we stepout of that programming, can can
you I guess this is like arhetorical question for the
audience. Can you step into asituation like that and still
learn things take the parts thatresonate and leave the rest
(19:57):
aside because there is truth andbeauty In all things, whether
it's the Mormon Church,Catholics, Jews, you know,
wherever it is, there's truthand beauty and all things.
Yeah, I was thinking aboutrecently, you know, as I've
talked to my LDS friends, Istill have a lot of LDS friends,
my best friend is very much init, but she gets a lot more
(20:18):
angry about certain things thatare said over the pulpit than I
do. You know, she's like,someone says this, and, and,
like, Yeah, I'm a little more ofa, I've learned to be an
observer more, just kind of beentertained by it in a way, but
also have pure love. Because,you know, everybody has
programming, I have plenty of itleft to myself, and I still
(20:39):
judge just like everybody elseas well. So we can, we can let
that go. What I was thinking is,I'm kind of have always been a
rebel of when things are tooimbalanced, one way or too
extreme in one way I will,because I'm kind of like living
water, I'll bring in the balancewherever there's imbalance.
That's my natural gift and mynatural way. And so as I was
(21:03):
sitting in, in listening toactually, I think it was
President, he's got to be themission president, and that was
making this long. I mean, he'sperfectly still and perfectly
calm and perfectly competent inthe way that he expresses
himself. And I thought, Oh, mygoodness. That is, to me, as I
(21:29):
sat, and that word over there,they represented the divine
masculine. And what I'm bringingin is the divine feminine. And
that's why God wants me to stayin there, too, because it's just
as important. It'll, it'llbalance out things over time.
And I think there's plenty ofwomen that are filling in
boiling up within them as welland are speaking up. Yeah,
(21:50):
there's, there's little changesbeing made. But I think we've
been so competent in what we'vehad for so many, really,
centuries, but in the LDSchurch, you know, hundreds of
years that we just don'tquestion it. And I've had to
learn to discern, how do I feeltruth? How do I understand
(22:13):
truth, and for a lot of my life,with the very regimented,
extreme discipline that Idisplayed in every area of life,
that's why I started developingtalents, a lot of different
ones. And I was really young.
That was the divine masculinestepping in, I felt the spirit,
I felt that warmth, that burningwithin my heart so often. And I
felt the direction of thespirit, Do this, do that. And,
(22:34):
and so I still incorporated thatas I started raising my kids.
But I was so sleep deprived, andso burnt out all the time, that,
that I felt like that was mylifeline, studying my Scriptures
with my kids doing family nightpraying. And doing those core
things, teaching them how towork in the morning, doing their
(22:57):
chores, going to the park in theafternoon, reading to them a
lot, and making them good foodand things like that I was still
practicing self discipline, butI felt like such a failure
because there was no I couldn'tfeel spirit a lot of the time
because severe postpartumdepression and severe sleep
exhaustion. So I felt veryalone, I call that 14 years, my
(23:19):
Gethsemane or my dark night ofthe soul. And after so long of
that my uncle calls these yearsof child raising, he calls them
the pressure cooker, your careeryears, I think after 16 or 17
years of that I just completelyblew a gasket. And I said, I've
been doing all these things, butI'm not happy and I'm not a
(23:41):
piece. And there's got to besomething more to it. There came
a point where I started justletting go of certain things,
pressuring myself to do thingsjust right all the time. And
that's when I it was after mytotal nervous breakdown slash
rebirth, that I started juststepping into the void and
(24:05):
saying, It's okay, I can learnto be comfortable in the cold in
the dark, and I can bring like,and interestingly, I didn't know
this about myself before, but Ilove being in cold water as
often as I possibly can, goingswimming, walking in streams to
waterfalls and, and splashing inpuddles when it's raining. That
is my happy place. And I do feelmore happy and more at peace
(24:29):
overall than I ever did when Iwas doing everything just right
and so to fill the contrast ofthat, that old way that is also
very important. The LDS churchdoes things by a certain
rulebook and that is the divinemasculine and so they have it
down very strongly and that'swhy when a lot of people listen
(24:50):
to the speakers and everythingthat burning that warmth, that
that feeling of this isconsistent This is stable is
right there and So it'simportant for us now to bring in
also the divine feminine. Andthat is, to me, the gathering of
Israel or the union that'sstarting to take place. And it's
(25:13):
interesting because my littlebrother that was adopted, I was
his first Mom, he stillconsiders me a mother figure. He
calls me whenever he'sstruggling. He's in his early
20s. He was checking out theCatholic church, I was really
drawn to it more recently, he'slike, I'm gonna get baptized in
the Catholic Church. And Ithought, Hmm, I wonder why he's
drawn to that. And I thought,you know, the emphasize grace, a
(25:36):
lot more than our church. Andthat's probably what he's
needing. As far as life. Afterbeing raised by our parents,
we're very, very strict andvery, again, divine masculine.
You do it this way. You do itthis way. This is the right way.
Right? This and this and this,and it'll be fine.
You know, I, how do I want tophrase this, I as I'm listening
(26:00):
to you, and I recently had aconversation with another woman
who went through somethingsimilar to where she was doing
all the things she was supposedto do, right. And, and within
that religion, it is taught thatwhen you do these things, you
will be blessed when you do the,you know, by the by the book
kind of things, family home,evening scriptures, prayers, you
know, you will be blessed. And,and we had an interesting
(26:25):
conversation about that, becauseit's simply not true. But there
is what I feel this is myAmanda's take on this is that it
creates a false sense of safety,that we think that if we do
these things, or we're taughtthat if we do these things that
we will be protected, we will besafe, we will be blessed. And
the truth is, is is that that'sanywhere in the world, we have
(26:46):
these things that we don't do,because or we do do because they
give us a false sense of safety.
And yeah, it's always that Ilove some of the things that
you're sharing about withasking, how do you understand
spirit? How do you discern foryou, Rachel, for you, not from
outside of you, but for you. Andeven that safety piece is
something that if everything wasstripped away from any of us,
(27:06):
would we be so in knowing who weare that we could still feel
safe within ourselves ifeverything was gone? Yes. And
yeah.
And that's where the DivineFeminine comes in, when that one
made that comment yesterday,because it was all one way, one
way, one way. And then Mr.
President, was saying his piece,and then she came in and made
(27:27):
her comment, and it was chills,there's the divine feminine, the
recognition of truth there. Andyou're, you're totally right.
And that I talked to my 18 yearold son all the time, I said,
you're not really living, if youthink you depend on this, and
that, you know, you've got thisfalse sense of security. And
that's the main thing with my exhusband and the way that he does
(27:50):
things. He had this set way ofbeing with me as well, like, I
was just easygoing, and I woulddo whatever doesn't make me and
a subservient wife. And themoment that I started
approaching him in a very gentleway, again, very filtered, and
telling him when you say this,or when you act like this, I
(28:11):
feel this way. And that way,that way, the rug was pulled out
from under him, and he startedlashing out like crazy and, and
becoming not only mentallyabusive, but physically abusive.
And and so that's the problem isthat eventually the rug will be
pulled out from under each of usand, and when I hear people
speak, especially men in thechurch that are so confident and
(28:33):
so perfectly, like, wow, theyhaven't had that happen yet.
Yeah.
Are all of our come to Jesusmoments of like, false truths
and what real truth is, and I,when you speak to the feminine,
the masculine and my, in myexperience, and what I believe
to be very true is that thefeminine the masculine actually
(28:54):
lives within each of us. Youknow, you could look at the
structure of the body, or thethings like the blood pumping,
and the like, the actualstructure of the physical body
is more of the masculine energy,the flow of the blood pumping,
the flow of the breath, moving,the flow within the container is
more of that feminine energy.
And that's what is alive withineach of us. Because we often
think because I'm a woman, thenI only get to have this divine
(29:16):
feminine cycle that in my beliefin my knowing that's not true,
we get both the feminine and themasculine within each of us. And
so I think it's it is there isan imbalance in a lot of ways
and a lot of pieces that we'reall trying to figure out, which
I think is really, reallybeautiful to bring more balance
into all things even withinreligion would be quite
(29:37):
refreshing. Yeah,it really wanted to Yeah, you're
right. It's interesting, too,though, but I'm seeing the
energetic representation of thatvery divided with men and women
in at least in that wordyesterday when but, but yeah, I
know we've got it. I mean,obviously, we're trying to
(29:58):
create that balance. withinourselves, I was just thinking
back to when I was 13. And Iwent through puberty, I had
already taken on a verymasculine representation of
myself from the age of firstgrade. Because to me, boys were
tough, and they were vulnerable.
(30:18):
And I had grown to hate my ownvulnerability. So that's when I
think I formed that side of methat was extremely athletic.
Like, from the very beginning, Iwent out, and to a brand new
school in first grade and wentout and all the boys were like,
she can't play. She's a girl wewere still in. So I go out to
the baseball field, and I go tohit it, and I swing and miss the
(30:40):
first time. The second time Ihit it way out there.
So that's so cute. So yeah, I, Ilooked at myself on a video when
I was 12 years old, and watchthe way I walk. And I have a
super short hair like I do now,actually. But obviously, I've
embraced my feminine side a lotmore. But just talking and
(31:04):
walking, and I really did havelike my first crush on a girl.
And I wished to be a boy,especially when I was going
through puberty. I had suchanger toward for some reason,
the feminine within me that hadbeen hurt so badly from early
childhood that I had, like, theworst menstrual cramps, like the
(31:27):
worst. I mean, I'd be shakingand going into shock and
throwing up and everything likethat. And I think a lot of that
was psychological stuff that Ihadn't worked through.
Oh, I bet. I bet. So did you Ithink you mentioned that you
were military wife, right? Yeah.
So did youmove around a lot. Every two
years and half the time it wasout of state.
(31:47):
Were like an out of out of theUnited States ever or all
all women we I I knew that my mylifeline would be being able to
travel to family. So I did. Whenmy kids were younger, I would go
every four months out of stateto go visit family just feel
connected and get a break.
Well, I can. I can imaginemoving that often having
(32:10):
religion having the Mormonchurch was a lifeline. Yes.
Like, yeah, you always knew yourcommunity. Even if it was new.
You always knew you hadsomewhere to go.
Yeah, it was, although I hadplenty of interesting
experiences good and bad.
Because Dan and I have alwaysbeen outside of the box
thinkers?
Yeah. So you probably ruffledsome feathers, depending on
(32:31):
which board you went into. Yeah,exactly. But yeah, that that had
to be a gift. I know, I moved alittle bit when I was younger,
and it was a gift to know, okay,I have I know where my community
is, you know, it's within thewalls of this Mormon, Mormon
church, and I would be welcomed.
And I was really grateful forthat. And it was nice to to have
an experience outside of Utah. Imean, one of my first
(32:54):
experiences was in Germany.
Actually, that's not true, as inVirginia, but in Germany, you
know, and having because wewould go to the military Ward
out there, because it wasEnglish speaking. Even though
my, my ex, my husband at thetime, he wasn't he was, it
wasn't a military thing. He wasGerman. So it was nice to be
able to step into that and belike, Oh, my gosh, just people
from all over. And everybody's alot more open minded. And
(33:16):
anyway,it was I loved it. Yeah, that's
so cool.
Yeah, I really love that. Sowe're where you're at today is
that, from everything that I'mhearing, the things that you
have gone through, have reallyultimately taught you more about
you. How to hear your own voicewith God. And and you're
(33:37):
choosing still to go.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Becausethere's, there's too much of
good stuff like I, I just itseriously, it formed a lot of
who I am, I mean, reading theBook of Mormon, and I didn't
listen, a lot of the time. Asmatter of fact, when I was in
Sunday school, when I was1314 15, I would be very
(33:58):
participative. Because I waslike, really deeply pondering,
as I studied my scriptures andpraying for the Spirit to guide
me to understand what it meantand how I can apply it. And so
there were so many more, moredeep and more whole
understandings that came as aresult of that. And so I was, at
that age, I was veryparticipative. But since then,
(34:19):
it seems like the most themajority of the classes that I
attend, are stuck in that samewell, they're there. They're not
even to where it was that youjust 1516 Because I think my
that is my main gift is tounderstand, I have an
understanding spirit. That'skind of a superpower like me,
(34:42):
you have to experience a lot ofdifferent things to be able to
understand. But just my abilityto communicate with to hear
God's voice and to communicatewith him and understanding how
that works. So I've always beeninto symbolism and metaphors and
things like that, and I'vealways just pondered on those
things. steeply. Yeah. I loveit. I mean, I eat it up all the
(35:03):
time. So it's gonna be when theyask questions nowadays, and I'm
like, that's a question thatasked when I was 13 years old.
And I explained to like what Ihad learned from the Scriptures.
And it feels like they're stuckin a lot of ways, because I feel
like the majority of themhaven't really spent. You. I
(35:26):
don't know. I, it feels like mypride gets in the way. But in
this way, I was very, verygifted. And, and it kind of bugs
me that they're so stuck in thesame, like, oh, we need to learn
this. And I'm like, womenthrough being mothers, you
already know this. And you haveso much more insight. Yeah, I'm
(35:47):
happy when the women generallyspeak up, because there's so
much they can offer. And it's sofunny that so many of the men,
especially the leaders, thathave been leaders, for a long
time, are very, very competent,and the women are just like, are
shaking the Royces and more theowner authority, and that's
probably why I'm here. And maybewhen I learned her, because I'm
(36:09):
still working on that, you know,that's a brand new thing for me
to even think that maybe when Iset the example, then others
will start following suit. Idon't know.
I think that's beautiful. I, Ihave to ask, I'm curious why you
reached out to do a podcastabout leaving religion if you're
still choosing in.
I mean, I'm not a member. Andit's like, I am a member. It's
(36:33):
the exact same thing. It'sfunny, because these are
parallel things that happened tome the same time. I got
divorced. I'm not married tohim. Yeah, him and my children
are still my family. Yeah. SoI'm not married to the church.
But for a long time, I've beendoing things my own way. I hate
being assigned to somebody toserve. It's like, No, I'm gonna
(36:53):
go by the Spirit. And people aregoing to be drawn to me, and I'm
going to be drawn to them. Yeah.
So I've always been kind of arebel of the way things are
done. And that's probably whythe marriage was so hard to
because he's very much that way.
Yeah. Things have to be done acertain
way. Yeah. I think it's alwaysfascinating. I had another
podcast interview a while ago,where she's like, I don't
(37:15):
identify as Mormon. And yet shewent to church every Sunday. In
fact, I believe she had her shewore garments, she did all the
things that she's like, but Idon't identify as being a
Mormon. And it was like, mybrain was like, I don't care. I
don't understand that, like, Idon't like you're doing all the
things is it for Mormon, andyet, you're saying you are not
Mormon. So it is just adifferent way of being with it,
(37:38):
which I think is beautiful. Whenyou find what works for you. And
how you want to navigate lifewith religion without religion
with spirituality. Withoutspirituality. I think it's quite
beautiful when you listen toyour, your voice, your inner
knowing, and then you act uponthat, even if it doesn't make
sense.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it makesperfect sense to me. Now, I love
(38:01):
the temple. But I have templesacred experiences all the time,
wherever I am. Wherever youstand, you can stand in holy
places. So I don't love thatthey emphasize so much and
create this almost totaldependence on the brick and
mortar and the way of you needto study your scriptures.
(38:22):
There's all kinds of resourcesthat you can study all kinds of
good books and differentreligions and different cultures
and documentaries andeverything. Yeah. To understand
truth more fully, right? It'skind of silly to say you must do
it, you must only do this everysingle day. So that pray,
(38:44):
rebelled against a lot. Butyeah, but I'm there to do that.
Another one of the things thatI've always been told you're
doing that wrong, like ifsomebody is classically trained,
for example, in piano or insinging, I tend to do things,
almost the opposite. And whatI'm realizing is that I, I'm
(39:04):
kind of a lot of the embodimentof the divine feminine. That's
probably why I trigger a lot ofpeople. Yeah, I am the undoing
of all the, all the BS. And so,so yeah, it's interesting. How
can being taught the differentmotions and energy just the
spiraling up and down and theunscrewing? I think it was a few
(39:28):
months ago, I was unscrewingsomething. I'm like, Oh, this is
the divine feminine, theunscrewing of and then you put
back together in a more completeway, and then you're screwed.
And that's the divine masculine.
Mm hmm. That's beautiful. Well,is there anything else about
your story you would love toshare?
Um, yeah, actually, um, I waspregnant with my second baby.
(39:54):
And this is my all of my friendsand family. know about this, but
he was pondering and searchingfor himself. And honestly, He's
not the type to, like do that tolike inquire of God. He has he's
a genius mind, brilliant mind,he solves problems in his mind.
(40:16):
He's very independent that way.
And so I was surprised to findthat he was saying, Okay, how
can we guard our boys from beingtrapped in the addictions, such
as pornography that are outthere in the world? And he was
thinking about that. And hestarted just scrolling online
and found this group callednaked and not afraid. Oh,
(40:40):
interesting. And so he went onthe website and started reading
his like, an E dismiss. And hecame to me with it after he had
studied a lot and read a lot ofthe reviews of the people who
had chosen to implement this,this open door open discussion,
open minded, you know, thingwithin their family. And he
(41:05):
said, you know, all the familiesthat row on there, they said,
you know, my teenage daughter,we've, we've grown up this way,
we keep the doors open, and forshowering, whatever, it's not a
big deal, come in and say, Oh,ask a question go right out.
There's no shame involved.
There's no obsession, thing. Andthey were saying that, like they
(41:26):
teenage daughters, they didn'tworry about them at all, because
they honored their bodies enoughthat they didn't even I mean,
they were oversized T shirts andjeans. That's how my daughters
are my teenage daughters.
They're very much that way.
That's how they feelcomfortable. And they are very
strong and competent in theirbody image, there is no body
shame. I mean, they know thatthey're beautiful, and they hold
(41:46):
it sacred as well. And so Dan islike, I want this kind of
result. And it because itbasically race races the shape
and brings in a healthy view ofour bodies. Yeah. And and it's
that shame cycle, which he hadlearned because he had done a
lot of studying about whypornography, have such a hold on
people. And so he startedtalking to me about this. And my
(42:11):
programming went right in, and Istarted just, oh, this is so
wrong. Let me find what theprophets have said about it, and
the scriptures and everything.
And I couldn't find anything.
And not only that, but Iimmediately realized, because I
do have a very extensive heart.
When he was speaking to me aboutthis, I felt peace. And when I
was arguing against him, I feltcontention. And that was
(42:32):
probably the first time in ourmarriage where it wasn't the
opposite. Because Because I feltpeace when I was speaking truth
if I was standing up to him whenhe was being contentious. And so
I thought, okay, there'ssomething to this. And so I, we
both decided to pray and fastabout this decision for our
(42:54):
family, where we would have justopen communication about
everything and basically beraised exact opposite the way
that I was raised. And we bothattended the temple about three
weeks after really like, we werestudying our scriptures
together. We were praying everyday, we were asking the Lord, is
this the right way to raise ourfamily. And we went to the
(43:16):
temple together. And we kneltaround the altar to do the group
prayer. And the the personpraying said, if there are any
questions or needs that areneeding to be answered or met,
that they will be it was a lotmore eloquent than that. And
(43:36):
right at that moment, later on,we were talking about it but
both of us received a definitewitness that yes, well, you've
been inquiring of me is theright way. Yeah, your family.
And we looked at each other haveto apparent like, whoa, what?
And so we we decided to go,because, again, we're very open
(43:57):
minded. We love studying aboutall different cultures. And he
had served as mission in France.
And of course, there's newbeaches everywhere, and it's not
a big deal. So we decided toactually go to a nude beach
where we lived. And we did andthat's actually what got our
temporary men's taken away for afew months. But the experience
(44:19):
was so amazing. Because here weare these bright white
people and they're all these. Imean, the majority of them are
like, very, very overweight,super tan and probably mid 50s
and 60s. So funny. And they'reout there playing volleyball.
They're like, You guys want tocome play. It was just, I didn't
just just very friendlycommunity. We went and played.
(44:41):
And I remember there was acamera guy, there was a guy that
was in a distance he peed frombehind a hill and had a camera
and immediately to the people.
The first one being a womanstarted yelling and get out of
here, get out of here and one ofthe men started going toward him
too, because it was a sacredspace, and they were they were
protecting us and them and, andit was seriously one of the most
(45:04):
life altering experiences. Yeah.
You know when because they livedin Germany and you brought up
France, you know, in Europe,their culture is in fact, my
husband, I were just talkingabout this not that long ago,
their culture is very openminded about sex and about the
physical body. And it is likeyou're talking about, there's no
(45:27):
shame around it, it just is,this is who we are, we were born
naked into this world. And thenwe put on clothes and we cover
up and, and we do all thesepieces. And then we create this
interesting dynamic. And when,when my husband, I were having
this conversation, I was askinghim, I would be curious to know
the amount of divorce thathappens because of adultery, or
(45:48):
pornography or the thingscompared to the United States.
Because I would bet it's a lotless, I would bet that I went to
this retreat that was called Sexperience. And it was we dove
into the shame around sex andour sexuality and our desires
that most of us hide andsuppress. And when we do that,
it creates all sorts of shame.
And it's that lowest frequencyand what would happen,
(46:10):
especially with our partners, ifwe allow ourselves to be fully
seen in these spaces, and ninetimes out of 10, even just
talking about this desire, orthis impulse, or this thing that
we feel like is wrong, justtalking about it, all of a
sudden, it just clears it out.
Like it's not even activeanymore. And, and yet we have
(46:31):
created such a culture,especially within the Mormon
church, and really a lot ofreligions, but especially the
Mormon church were with theMormon garments, and the
covering up and the, you know,needing to be modest. And it's
like, I love that you're sharingthis, like if we can teach our
children and, and have thatbeautiful. There's no shame,
(46:52):
even if I have cellulite, andI'm a little overweight, and I
love that it's like it's mostly50 and six year olds that are
out there that are, you know,enjoying and living up life and
just embracing and having thatfreedom of being seen fully.
They get it is quite, it isquite beautiful. So thank you
for sharing that. I think that'syeah, that's beautiful.
Yeah, I kind of wanted to sharethe after effects of that with
(47:15):
the church and also my familymembers. And yeah, there was a
huge flashback because I had my18 year old sister and also my
mission return missionary sisterover, they came to visit me
while we were living in LosAngeles, which is when this was
all going down, I had gonethrough a miscarriage and I was
having pretty severe postpartumdepression on top of everything
(47:38):
but but I was so excited becauseDan was kind of deciphering
between. Okay, I've actuallytried viewing pornography before
he said, and he said, it justmakes me feel icky, and off and
a little dark and not a feelingthat I want. But then he pulled
up these pictures of thesewomen, there's like these nature
(47:59):
pictures from the 70s wherethey're just like, standing in
the nude. And just like lookingat nature and like holding a
butterfly or a bird or, orwhatever. And they're surrounded
by nature. And he's like, when Ilook at these, I just, I feel
total, like respect and an aweand honor. You know, and he
said, I, there's a totalcontrast between these two
(48:22):
things. And I was excited toshare that too. Because I was I
felt a little shame in lookingat those the nature pictures,
and I have never, never seen anykind of pornography. And I don't
want to but I looked at thosepictures. I was like, not
wanting to look but because Ihave always been bisexual, you
(48:44):
know, I'm very attracted towomen that way. And, and so I
allowed myself to look at it andbe like, yeah, like I feel
reverence and honor to it'sbeautiful. It really is. So
anyway, I I was so excited aboutthis because I had felt the
light and the peace that wasflowing. And I knew many many
(49:04):
years later that yes, despitewhat all of my family and Bishop
and everyone had said, look atthe results that this has
yielded like I have absolutelyno body shame. And I've taught
my daughters that very strongly.
But my 18 year old sister wenthome and told my mom, she was
horrified at what I had sharedwith her. I probably I bet the
alarms were going off and I wassharing as usual, being
(49:27):
concerned about her kids eternalsalvation, right. I called my
bishop and told him well, youjust correct them in this. And
so here's our bishop is like3037 28 years old, okay, been
married for quite a while but nokids. And he calls us in and we
(49:47):
tell him all that we'veexperienced. And he said, Well,
don't go to a nudist resort orbeach again or I'll have to take
away your temper. recommends.
And Dan was like, well, we can'tpromise that because that's a
personal decision between mywife and I, and yeah, that we
prayed about and that wereceived our answer. And so the
(50:10):
bishop said, Okay, well, I'mgonna have your recommends. So
each week you'd meet with us andsay, Okay, I need you to go
home, study your scriptures andpray and come back. And we'll
see if you have not he didn'tsay this part, the right answer.
Each week that we went home anddid this, the confirmation was
stronger. Like, yes, that'sright for our family.
(50:31):
Interesting. And so that was myfirst experience of going
completely against leadership,but knowing in my heart that God
had directly spoken to me andsaid, Yeah, right.
That's beautiful. I love thatyou're sharing these stories of
like those pieces of I know, Iknow what's true for me, even if
it goes against the church'sstandards, even if it goes
(50:53):
against these pieces. It's likeit is truth. And I have to honor
that I get to honor that. Yeah,that's beautiful. Well, thank
you for sharing. Is thereanything else that you feel
called to share before we weend? No. Beautiful. Well, thank
you. Like I said, already, Ijust appreciate you and your
(51:14):
vulnerability and courage andall these pieces of you that you
have shared with us. It's, it'sreally beautiful. So I
appreciate you, Rachel, thankyou for saying yes,
thanks, appreciate it.
What a unique interview, and Ididn't realize that she was
still attending church. And Ithink it's beautiful to hear
different experiences, andreally what feels like truth for
(51:37):
anyone and everyone, I don'tcare who you are, what you're
choosing as long as it feelslike true to you. And you're
always questioning that andchecking in. I think that it is
absolutely beautiful, and what abeautiful example of what that
can look like. So if you are inthe process of unwinding out of
religion and looking for moretools, head over to Amazon and
grab my book leaving religionand those we leave behind, or go
(52:00):
to my website and pick up myleaving religion tools. These
are some really beautiful toolsto assist you in more of the
unwinding, winding process and Iwill put both of those links
down below the tools is if youhead to my website, a manager I
live on.com forward slashleaving religion tools, you will
find those there. And thenagain, just a reminder to to
(52:22):
come if you're feeling the callto join us for this embody
experience. We are closing theapplications at the end of this
month. So get your applicationin. If you are selected as one
of the 13 people then you get tocheck in and tune in to what
feels in alignment to donate sothat you can be a part of this
experience. And so head over tomy website Amanda loveland.com
(52:43):
forward slash inbody. That'sAmanda loveland.com forward
slash i n b o d y and as always,wherever you are sending you so
much love if you are feeling thecall to be one of my guests.
Reach out to me and let's have aconversation. have such a
beautiful day.
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