How To Let Go of The Wounded Story with Hugh Vail.

My guest, Hugh Vail, has spent thousands of hours combing through scriptural texts and finding the true meaning in the translations of the scriptures. For example, the word perfect  is not translated correctly. Perfect actually means whole. So it's about our wholeness as we are all whole. Sin has a truer meaning of missing the mark.

Is it possible by having a different perspective on some of the ancient stories it can help you to have more peace?

Is it possible that religion is a necessary first step in learning about spirituality and ancient wisdom?

Hugh shares some of his formula that has taken him years to create around how to move through and let go of your story.  Are you still holding onto your wounded story?

Our conversation dives deep into scriptural truths, ceremonies, the endowment and more. We talk through ancient stories and ancient wisdom that you will want to dive into with us!

To follow Hugh and to learn more about what he does head to his website.

LINKS:

https://www.mustangmedicineevents.com

IG: @mustang_medicine_

To grab your ticket for our upcoming event head to: https://www.amandajoyloveland.com/leanin

Let's stay in touch!

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Episode Transcript

Unknown (00:03):
Good morning, afternoon or evening, wherever this
podcast is finding you today. Ihope you're having a beautiful
day. And if not, I hope thatthis podcast episode brings
comfort into your life. As Iknow it will, we have some
beautiful topics that we coverand some really, really cool,
really cool things. So I'mreally excited. And before we

(00:24):
dive in, I have my speakersymposium coming up in just a
few days, and I'm really excitedto announce that I am bringing
in a very cool group that willalso offer some sound healing in
the middle of our day. And theydo this with sound bowls that
you if you've done soundhealing, you know, there's
always sound bowls, but theyalso bring in drums and singing

(00:46):
and intimations as well as asaxophone. So I am super excited
to experience them as I can onlyimagine you will be too. So if
you haven't gotten your ticket,go over to my website, Amanda
loveland.com. Forward slash leanin and grab your ticket today.
And my next guest, I am soexcited to finally share this

(01:09):
episode with you. We have beentrying to get together for
months and trying to coordinateour schedules. And finally, when
I was down at Homestead ranchthis past weekend, we were able
to record out of my little cabinright by the lake, which was
just stunning. And sit down onthe floor and just dive into
some really fascinating topicsaround the Mormon religion. And

(01:30):
I have no doubt you're going toenjoy my next guest, Hugh Val.
Are you ready? Hello, welcome tothe lakeside cabins. Oh my gosh.
Yes. Lakeside cabin number nine.
Well, welcome guests. I knowthis has taken us months to do.
And I get to hold my mic likethis. So I felt a little dorky.

(01:51):
As we're sitting on the floor.
This is awesome. I'm glad we'refinally doing this. And I
appreciate you for stepping inand, and for sharing your wisdom
and your story and what you'velearned and what you've gone
through. Because I know it'sit's significant. So I'm excited
to to share this space with you.
Thank you. So where do you wantto go? Because I know we were

(02:12):
going to record a few monthsago, and we kind of put it on
pause and it just wasn'tworking. And then you said I
know what I'm gonna talk aboutnow. Do you know what that is?
Do you remember?
I remember what that was? Yeah.
Well, doyou want to tell any of your
religion story?
Um, yeah, I mean, yeah, I getasked about it all the time.

(02:34):
And, you know, you've asked mebefore, what the question that I
get asked a lot is, why did youleave religion? And the answer I
always give is, I didn't I knowthat. I'm like, okay, that's
hard for a lot of people. Andpart of it is because I think of

(02:56):
how I define the word religion.
And what that means to me. Ithink what people are really
asking is a different question.
I think the question they'reasking is, are you still in
actively involved in organizedreligion? And to that, I would

(03:17):
say no, yeah. But leavingreligion, I don't even know if
it's possible to leave religion.
You know,the title of this podcast is
leaving religion and my book.
Yeah.
But that's because of mydefinition of it. So religion in
Latin, is often translated as tore ligament, like, if your

(03:43):
ligaments were torn in your bodyand your ligaments were getting
put back together. Okay. So theidea behind religion is to bring
something that feels broken orhas been separated back to its
wholeness. And so with thatdefinition, I think we all want
religion. But I that's, I think,a unique definition. I don't

(04:07):
think that's the contemporarycultural definition.
Or what is practice is practice.
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I, you andI have talked about this. It's
like religion, there's so muchtruth in religions. And for me,
I just feel like it just lightlymisses the mark. And I think
it's, for me, I believe it'sintentional. Yeah. But, you
know,so I think, too, talk about

(04:28):
organized religion. And to thatpoint, there's so much truth in
organized religions. Here's whatI think organized religions are,
I think this is the purpose ofthem. At least the core, there's
probably many purposes and thecore purpose in my belief system

(04:51):
is they are the keepers of theancient stories. I think that's
what organize As religions havedone for the people,
yeah, I could see that,because I don't think we'd have
the Bible without organizedreligions. I don't think we'd
have the ancient stories withoutorganized religion. Mm hmm. And

(05:12):
so I think they're the keepersof the stories. Now, an
interesting thing is that tohave the story doesn't mean to
understand the story. So whatyou need in the group of people,
which I think exist, but I thinkthis gift gets denied. And that

(05:35):
is the interpreters of thestory. Okay. And I think we've,
anybody who's had the gift ofinterpreting this ancient
stories, which could probablyalso be defined as like
translating the ancient stories.
I think that gift existssomewhere, but it has not been

(05:58):
cultivated, nourished, nurturedand grown. And so I think it
lays dormant for the most part,that's probably been happening
for a couple 100 years at least.
And I think it could be a littlebit more prominent than,
obviously, then what it is,especially if it's dormant.
Yeah. So just because you havethe story doesn't mean you
understand the story.

(06:21):
Right? Well, that's the thing. Imean, when we were both in
religion, and you now go intranslate, you go pull in
different languages, becausefrom one language language to
another, it's often that it getsmisinterpreted because there's
no word that can directlytranslate. Yeah,
language drifts. Yeah, that'sthe thing that so a few years
ago, about five years ago, Icalled downloads, I got to

(06:42):
download this, my inner knowing,inner library was talking to me,
right? And, and I got thisdownload the download said, to
be able to answer the questionsthat I was asking in my heart,
and in my soul. I would have toread the ancient stories,

(07:05):
particularly in the NewTestament, in ancient Greek, and
in classic German. Neitherlanguage which I speak,
right, I was gonna say, Youdon't know either one. No,
you're like, wait a minute, thisdownload is full of crap.
Yeah. No, I felt like thisdownload sucks, because that's a
lot of work. And just give methe answer. Yeah, right. But

(07:30):
what I ended up learning, andSocrates said this really,
really well is he said, thebeginning of wisdom is the
definition of the terms. So wehave words, we have terms, and
with terms, you have conditions,right, we're used to this and
contract agreements, right?
Terms and conditions. So thebeginning of wisdom is the
definition of terms. So if I, ifyou and I have an agreement, but

(07:54):
we don't agree on the terms thatare in there, how do we really
have an agreement? Right? Wedon't Yeah. And the other thing
I think is really interestingthat he's saying is he's not
saying the beginning ofknowledge, or the beginning of
understanding is at thebeginning of wisdom, and wisdom
has a really deep, rich, meaningin ancient Greek. There are six

(08:19):
filters you have to go throughto understand wisdom. The two
types of wisdom, the first typeof wisdom is Sophia, this is
where we get like, philosophy,right? Philo meaning the love of
and then Sophia is knowledge.

(08:39):
But Sophia, the Greek word oftengets translated as wisdom. But
the better translation would belike intellectual wisdom or
knowledge. The other Greek wordfor that gets translated in
English as the word wisdom isfrom nesis, which is probably my

(09:02):
most favorite word. So a fewyears ago, I did start, I
followed that download, and Ibought every concordance I mean,
I spent, like, almost two grandbuying brokenness and
concordance is in reading it.
And I would spend about twohours in the morning, going
through one verse because Iwould go through word for word.
And so I'm just giving anexample with like, some of the

(09:25):
words that you run into, you'relike, Okay, I get the
translation, but it's so muchricher and deeper than, than
what's being spoken in Englishbecause English is an expedient
language, especially the way weuse English today. So there's
plenty of English words thatcaptivate and have this rich,
deep meaning but in our culture,in our society, we don't use

(09:48):
these words and even if we did,we wouldn't really understand
what someone was saying becauseit's the we just old English.
Yeah, we just don't understandsome of that. depth in deep
English. So the English that youand I use in most of us,
probably all the listeners is avery expedient language. It's
like a shortcut way. So we saythings like, Oh, I love ice

(10:11):
cream. And then we say thingslike, Oh, I love you, right, but
we mean two different things. Sowith wisdom, going back to four
nesis, this means to do theright thing, to the right
person, in the right way, forthe right reason, at the right

(10:31):
time, and in the right place. Soyou've got those six things. So
wisdom is different thanknowledge. And knowledge is
different than understanding andwisdom is different than both of
them. But they one builds on topof the other. So the beginning
of wisdom, the only way toreally get to that, that

(10:51):
integration, where I'm takingthese things that I learn, and
I'm integrating them into mylife, I'm applying them I'm
becoming a wise person or aperson of wisdom is I have to
start knowing what are the termsthat my relationships are being
built on, whether it's mybusiness relationship, or my
work relationship, or myspiritual relationships, all

(11:12):
those have terms and conditionsto them. And the beginning of
all of it is the beginning, thebeginning of understanding how
to have wisdom, and that is byunderstanding what the terms
are, then I can start doing theright thing to the right person
in the right way at the righttime in the right place. Right.
And you go through that, thosesix filters. And that's super,

(11:33):
super challenging.
Although it seems like a lot ofwork. Like if you're going
through and defining everysingle relationship and the way
that it needs to look like inorder to then do the six steps.
Is that what you're saying?
Well, what I'm saying, wisdom,let's, let me see if I can

(12:00):
answer the question by talkingabout where for nesis shows up
in one of the ancient stories.
It's in Luke chapter one. Thisis when Zacharias who's
approximately in his early 80s,his wife, Elizabeth is in her
early 80s. He's, I've readreports where he's 81. And she's

(12:20):
83. And Zacharias is John theBaptist, his dad, right? So he
gets he draws, it says that hedraws lots, right, it's like a
lottery. And there's multiplecorms, a quorum is basically
1500 Different priests. So thethe chance of your your lot,

(12:41):
your number being drawn that youget to go in on this special
holy day and light the incensein the Holy of Holies. It may
never actually happen in yourlifetime. So he's supposedly
about 81 years old, and his lotgets drawn. And he's super
excited. And so he goes to theHoly of Holies. And he lights

(13:03):
the the incense. And the angelGabriel shows up. And the angel
Gabriel says, Hey, I've got amessage for you. And the message
is that your wife's going tohave a baby. And immediately, of
course, he starts to doubtbecause his wife's 83 years old,
right? You can see the logicwhere he's like, maybe not,
yeah, maybe not. And also, I'veread some really interesting

(13:27):
reports that even though theirfaith was so strong, the the
commonality of meeting withangels and angels showing up
even in the Holy of Holies, hadbeen so far removed from their
actual experiences, that it wasa very difficult, unbelievable
experience for Zacharias toreally wrap his mind around
because to him, he's just anormal guy who's been doing his

(13:49):
priestly duties for decades anddecades, just like everyone else
has been, and he doesn't feelany more special than anyone
else. And now all of a sudden,an angel is actually showing up.
And we believe that they do, butthey don't really write the code
someone else or happen tosomeone else. Yeah.

(14:09):
So that's kind of the settingthat he's in. Now. He's in the
Holy of Holies. And AngelGabriel is there and he says,
Your wife's going to have a babyand gives them some
instructions. The firstinstruction is you're going to
name them, John. Right? So youdon't even get to name your own
child. Yeah, angel tells youwhat you're going to name them.
So it goes. Okay, whatever. Idon't even know if I really
believe this. But sure, I'mlistening. Yeah. And then he

(14:31):
says, Your son, Angel Gabrielsays Your son's going to be the
front runner or the forerunnerto the Messiah. Right? Who's,
who's actually being birthed byZacharias, his sister in law,
right? Like Mary is his sisterin law. And so like your son's
gonna cousins, to the Messiah,right? And the Messiah means the

(14:54):
anointed one. That's the Hebrewword for the anointed one. And
if you dig Deep deeper into thatnot to get too anecdotal or
tangential on this. But if youget dig a little bit deeper,
it's the anointed one who'sgoing to embody Christ
consciousness, more than whatwe've seen, maybe ever not,
that's really what's being said,when you're the Messiah, you're

(15:15):
the one who's going to embody,integrate Christ consciousness
into your daily practicalliving. And he's going to be the
front runner to this. And nowbeing the front runner, he's got
two jobs. And I'll give you theKing James version, the King
James version, the first thinghe's going to do, he's going to
turn the hearts of the of thehearts of the fathers to all of

(15:38):
the children, the hearts of thefathers to all the children. And
if you get in and you translatewhat that actually means, it's
basically saying we've got toget dads back in the homes and
fatherhood is extremelyimportant. And that's a unique
message that I've never heardtold in an organized religion,
that the way that John theBaptist is going to be paving

(16:01):
for the people to follow in thewake of Jesus, embodying Christ
Consciousness is the step onefatherhood. That that's not a
message that that I've heard alot, right. No, I hadn't. But
when you see in a reallydysfunctional broken heart,
heartbroken society, fathers arealways removed. And it's very

(16:22):
difficult for fathers to beinvolved and engaged in the
lives of their children. Yeah.
And so that's an interestingthing. The second thing that he
gets, is to, he will, John willteach the wisdom of the just so
that phrase, the wisdom of thejust makes almost no sense to
anybody in, in modern incontemporary English, right. The

(16:46):
wisdom of the just is wisdom,meaning to do the right thing at
the right time in the rightplace, right person, right
reason, those six things, to thejust the just being if you're a
fair person, you would be a justperson. So the wisdom of the
chest, so only just or fair,people really know how to have

(17:09):
wisdom. So wisdom of the justthat whole phrase come from one
Greek word, the word is fromnesis. It's the only time it
shows up in the New Testamentinteresting. So John's job is to
teach fatherhood and for nieces,and if he can do that, he'll
pave the way and be the frontrunner to to Jesus who's going

(17:30):
to embody Christ Consciousnessmore than anyone else, and then
the message can actually beaccepted. So if you don't allow
fatherhood, and for nesis, ortrue, true practical wisdom in
our daily lives, we can't evenaccept the message of Christ
consciousness, and we won'tembody it ourselves. That's
interesting, which is a theoryof mine of why I think he

(17:51):
actually ends up beingcrucified. One of the reasons
he's crucified is becausefatherhood doesn't really come
back. And for NEET neither doesfor nesis. So the heart turns
often, so the heart turns often,yeah, and the hearts remain
hardened. Because really hardthings are happening. I mean,
they're trafficking children.
They have slavery just as muchas we have today, in culturally

(18:15):
speaking, you know. And so thisis a, this is a big task that
John's got in front of him. Now,the whole point is, is that
we've had these stories, but itdoesn't mean we've actually
maybe heard the real story,right. And so I'm appreciative
of organized religion forkeeping the story so that we

(18:36):
could go in and dive in and dothe homework with them. Where
I'm opposed is the stories theway that they're being
interpreted by the organizedreligion. Yeah, that's where I
think it gets a little wonky.
Not there sure is religion. Idon't get into conspiracies that
they, it's easy to fall into aconspiracy. I am skeptical about

(18:56):
them. I know that there areconspiracy theories. And I also
know that there are conspiracyfacts. That's another tough
Benson, quote. Right.
But I think there's just atremendous amount of ego that's
very difficult for the humanconsciousness to wrestle

(19:17):
against. And, and I guess I justspeak from experience on that,
like, my own ego is superchallenging to wrestle with. I
think that's Jacobs Russell whenJacobs dislocates his hip
because he's wrestling with God.
Right. I think what he's reallydoing is wrestling with the true
stories and of what's going onand who he really is. Because

(19:39):
that's a that's justfacing our own shadows. And
all that. Yeah. And your hip,right. You have to understand
that your hip is your moststrongest fortified joint and
bones in your body. It'scarrying your weight, you're
twisting, you're turning, you'rerunning just, you know. jolting

(20:00):
all that stuff you're sitting,you're standing. That's all
happening in the hip. And so ourhips are very, very fortified.
So to be in a wrestling matchand have your hip dislocated, a
little bit different than likeyour toe or your, your thumb
being dislocated, right, yourhip being dislocated, I think
that's, I think the properinterpretation of that is how
difficult it is to wrestle withthe actual story of and I think

(20:24):
the real wrestle is who wereally are.
Who do you think we really are?
Well, the Old Testament saysthat we are the gods.
Who do you think we are? Thesame?
Yeah, yeah, totally. And I getthat from the the translation of
Jesus when he's talking on thesermon of the mount. And in

(20:47):
chapter five, it's that sermonon the mount is kind of kicking
off. But Jesus has to lay thefoundation for the next things
that he's going to say inchapter six in chapter seven, of
Matthew. And when he's reallydigging into some of his final
points of setting the tone forwhat this sermon really is, it's

(21:10):
chapter five, verse 48. The KingJames Version says, Be therefore
perfect, even as your Father inheaven is perfect. And this is
very, very difficult for us tounderstand what's actually being
said, because here's what Ihear. Be therefore flawless,

(21:31):
even as your Father in heaven isflawless. And I don't think that
that's fair. I don't thinkthat's just I don't think that's
wise. I don't even think it'saccurate. And so when you dig
into the Greek version, it'ssaying a couple of different
things. The first thing it'ssaying is, the Greek word is

(21:55):
teleios. B, therefore teleiosand teleios. is the word for
whole complete lacking no parts.
Yeah. So if we just translatedright there, be there for whole
realizing that you are completelacking no parts, even as your
Father in heaven is wholecomplete, lacking no parts. That
feels different, right? Thatreads different. Yeah. So what

(22:18):
that means is that perfectionwhen it was written in English
in the 1600s Perfection iswholeness, not flawlessness.
Well, and even just a differenceof those words, like you feel
like you can move towardswholeness. Okay, I can do that I
can, I can feel whole whateverthat looks like to me versus

(22:41):
this idea of perfection is youcan't ever reach that.
Yeah, it's like what Carl Jungwas talking about, right? It's
like for my, my branches and myleaves to reach the heavens, I
have to realize that my rootsreach down to the hell, right.
And so wholeness is integratingand accepting my shadows and my
light. And I think that once wecan wrestle with that, and be

(23:04):
okay with our shadows, as muchas sometimes we have, some
people have to be okay with.
Some people are totally finewith their shadows. But they are
not fine with their light.
Right.
It's that Marianne Williamsonquote, we're
more afraid of our greatness.
Yeah, we are. I can't rememberthe whole quote. Yeah. Yeah,
exactly. And then other peopleare totally fine with their
light, but cannot get over thefact that they have shadows.

(23:25):
Yeah. Right. And so thebeautiful part, I think, is when
we can integrate our light andour shadows. What's on the other
side is the rainbow on thatwholeness. Right. Yeah. Right.
So the other thing that thatit's saying, Here's what it's
not saying, It's not sayingbecome you therefore hole, or

(23:47):
become you, therefore perfect,it's a be meaning realize you
already are. So the way that Itranslate it is own your
wholeness, even as your heavenlyparents own their wholeness. And
so to me, what that means isthat we didn't come to earth to

(24:07):
have this mortal journey tobecome perfect. We are having
this mortal journey. And we arehere because we already are
perfect.
And I was listening to a littlebit of a Michael singer podcast
this morning, and he was talkingabout how simple everything that
we're seeking is actually quitesimple. But it's that resistance

(24:30):
to feeling to feeling theemotions, the pain, the
grieving, the sorrow, thewhatever, it's the resistance to
that, that makes things so muchharder. Definitely. And I would
agree with what he was sayingthat, especially as I've
continued learning it iseverything is quite simple. And
just with what you're sayingthat right there is simple.
Yeah. And I think anybody thatwants to really understand why

(24:52):
that is so difficult for us, youjust have to study your brain
and understand what a functionof the prefrontal cortex
is. So here's my little plug foras you're listening to this, he
is going to be presentingsomething this Sunday at our
speaker symposium. So if you'rein Utah, grab a ticket and come
join. Because what you presentis pretty, it's fascinating. And

(25:15):
I know I'm sitting here toretreat. That's why you and I
are down here at the homesteadranch and with several women,
and we got to listen to it, andthen see what you do with the
most of the wild mustangs. And,you know, I cannot tell you how
many times it's been brought upin conversations over the last
few days from what youpresented, because it really
makes you what you present makesyou think and understand that

(25:38):
oh, my gosh, this is how I'mplaying this out. And how can I
can shift that? Yeah. So it'sreally beautiful wisdom that you
share. And again, this, thisthis coming Sunday, get your
ticket. Yeah,it's my favorite thing, sharing
that formula. I've been workingon it for over just about five
years, maybe a little over fiveyears. And I feel like I just
barely started to like, piecethe final parts together. And

(26:00):
now we're diving deeper, it justgoes on, it's like an endless
Well, of, of just awesomeness,but the Mustang. The Mustang,
you know, the Mustangdemonstration that I do, which I
now call a wild horse ceremony.

(26:20):
I used to call it a workshop.
And then one day that justdidn't feel like it was sacred
enough. And I think I needed tochange my intention for it, and
what it was for me for the setin the setting to, to be created
for that. And so now it does.
It's a Mustang ceremony. Yeah.
But what it really is, is it's,it's a metaphor. And it was

(26:45):
Aristotle it well, it was Platoand Aristotle and Socrates, that
what you really needed to do isget good at understanding the
metaphors to become a master ofmetaphors. And I stumbled into
this metaphor. And that'sbecause where language falls
short, the metaphor will easilyfill in the gap. Yeah. And so

(27:07):
the thing everyone really seesis they see themself in the
Mustang. Oh, yeah. During thatceremony.
I think I already shared withyou, but I was shocked how
emotional I got during that.
Yeah. It was challenging towatch and really beautiful.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely.
It's.
So why did you choose out? Andyou haven't laughed. But why did

(27:30):
you choose to stop going to theMormon religion? Do you mind
sharing? You don't have toNo, no. Yeah, cuz it's not
something I'm embarrassed about.
It is something I want to Iwould never want to influence
someone to go faster than maybewhat they're ready for. I agree
with that. Because organizedreligion served me really,

(27:52):
really well, for a very longtime. It provided a tremendous
amount of feelings of safety andfamiliar familiarity.
Community, and I mean, there's alot of things. Yeah.
I think we've lost some of thatin our modern times right now.
Yeah. There's so muchlitigation, there's so much

(28:16):
liabilities that are out therethat I think we lose a lot of. I
mean, you remember, we used tohave like road shows. And we
used to have, oh, yeah, I forgotabout that. Yeah, yeah, we don't
even do we, like we gettogether. And we have potlucks
and everything like that. But weused to, like really engage in
lifestyle activities, andbasketball and softball leagues.

(28:37):
And, you know, and maybe it gottaken too seriously. But, but
those are community building.
And we don't really have I thinksome of those things that made
organized religions really homebased and kind of like rooted at
the heart. That fun and thatplay. Yeah, I think that's the

(28:58):
sad thing. So that's a motivatorfor me to be like, well, there's
other places that I'll go thatdo provide that. And but I was
there's an interesting scriptureand Doctrine and Covenants that
it's section 22, verse three.

(29:22):
And the question is beingpresented, why have I caused
this church to be built up inthe last days? Right? That's
ultimately the question that'sgoing to get answered. And it
says, Because of your deadworks, have I caused this church
to be built up in these lastdays? And I served my mission in

(29:47):
Independence, Missouri. And sowe didn't get too involved in
church history. We werediscouraged from that. And I
think for good reason. But whenyou when I've dove into some of
the early like the Joseph Smithpapers, I think are a great,

(30:08):
great example of that. What'sthe guy's name? Richard Richard
Lyman bush. I don't remember hewrote. Yeah, and I might be not
saying his name properly. But hewrote Rough Stone Rolling, okay,
which was the big biography thatthat came out. And if I heard
the story properly, it was hewas encouraged by the church to,

(30:33):
and maybe even the brethren towrite this book. I loved that,
that biography. To me, itbrought a lot of like realness
to Joseph into that wholeexperience that was going on.
So, one thing I don't like is Idon't like the aggrandizement of
a prophet or somebody who has agift. And to that point, I like

(30:59):
Avraham, Gilley. Audis. Ifanyone's ever read any of his
stuff, which I highly recommend,never heard of him. Yeah, he's
incredible. He's a scholar. Hewrote an awesome book. He's
written many awesome books,mostly writes on the book of
Isaiah, but he wrote a bookcalled End Times prophecy, a
Judeo, a Judeo Mormoninterpretation or something like

(31:23):
that. I can't remember the fulltitle of the book, but it's
called End Times prophecy byAvraham Galeotti. And in there,
he talks he talks about, hemakes this really cool point.
And the point is that prophets,seers and regulators are not
offices in a an organization,they're not roles in a, in an

(31:45):
organization. They're gifts ofthe Spirit. And so what that
means is that anybody could be aprophet, anybody can be a seer,
and anybody can be a revelator.
And if you go and read Moroni,chapter 10, what you get from
that is, do not deny the giftsand if you want the gifts, then
go seek after them, and they'llbe given to you. So if you
wanted to be a prophet, or aseer, or revelator, and Joseph

(32:05):
was, was famous for saying thateveryone should become a
prophet, seer, and revelatorunto themselves, and I don't
think that you can actually getto a society of sovereign
individuals who know theirwholeness, and who own their
wholeness, which I think wewould really define as a Zion
Taya definition of people. Idon't think you can get there if

(32:27):
they are not prophets, seers andregulators unto themselves. In
other words, I think the peoplewho comprise of Zion people are
prophets, seers and regulatorsunto themselves. And so when we
aggrandize, Joseph or anybodyelse, Martin Luther or
Bonhoeffer, right, whoever,whoever it is, in any religion,

(32:49):
I think we run the risk ofmissing what the real message
is. And I think this has beendone to Jesus, I agree, I think
we've made Jesus into somethingthat he is not.
And again, this is the worldaccording to Hugh. But one time
I was, I was in a very seriousmode of fasting and prayer. And

(33:12):
what I was told so clearly, inmy own inner knowing is, Jesus
is not a narcissist. And I justkind of thought about that. And
I was like, I don't know ifJesus like really wants people
to be worshipping Him, right,and am praising his name. And
that's a very controversialstatement. And but I think when

(33:35):
it's what I'm really trying tosay, so hopefully, people hear
what I'm saying, not how I'msaying it. Words matter. Because
words, they not only, you know,help us communicate, but they
shape the experience. So I'm nottrying to shape this experience
negatively. But I just don'tthink that I think when we shape

(33:59):
it into the fact that Jesusisn't a narcissist, and he
doesn't want people worshippingHim, I think what he wants is
people following his his path ofChrist consciousness that he
embodied, right, whichthese things can you do? And
then someone has that scripture?
Yeah. And more things youcan do and your greater things
and what you've seen me do,right. And that was another big

(34:21):
question that I was like, Idon't think I'm seeing greater
things like can I just see thethings you did? Let me start
there. This is there. Right? Andthen we'll figure that out
later, right. Yeah. Yeah. And,and maybe we are and maybe I'm
just missing it. You know, Idon't know. I'm open to that.
But I haven't seen it. I haven'tseen it. I don't know anybody

(34:41):
who has seen it. I think if wehad somebody who was performing
the miracles as Jesus was, hewould be super popular on
Instagram. Yeah, right.
Well, John of God, right. He wasnotorious for quite a while was
performing pretty majorhealings. Do you know who he
was? He went and people wouldcome to him, which is all sorts

(35:02):
of ailments, and he would doenergetic surgery on him,
essentially. And he'll healthem. Yeah, I don't know a ton
of John of God. So I'm justgonna caveat that, but I
remember that that was a bigpiece that people were really
like, wow, there's this, thisguy doing these things. And I
can't remember how long ago itwas.
I have a buddy, who is a quantumphysicist. And he has given me i

(35:31):
There's not even a term for it.
I'll change his name, because Idon't think he would want me to
say his name. But let's pretendhis name is. We'll call him John
two. Sounds good. Yeah, theJohn's are doing all the
miracles. But I would call it aJohn blessing, right? Like,

(35:53):
because there's not it's not apriesthood blessing, it's it. It
was like a mixture of Reiki,what I ended up finding out what
Reiki was, and like his owngifts, and just his incredible
desire to want to heal himself.

(36:14):
And then from there, being ableto pass that on to others and
help them out. And one of hisways of giving his blessings is,
he really helps you understandwho you are. And then when you
understand who you are, thenit's like,
oh, this is bringing thatwholeness in which would bring

(36:37):
balance to the body. Yes,exactly. I was just talking to a
friend of mine about this, andhow Jesus actually would go in
and ask if it was for their bestand highest good if they were
ready, you know, if you're, it'syour faith that makes you whole
right, essentially. Andyeah, cuz I think a narcissist
would say, let ideal do andyou're welcome. Yeah, right,

(36:59):
come save you the Savior. Youknow archetype, which is like,
Well, no, wait a second.
Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Anotherdownload that I got was that
Jesus is my Savior, because heis my mentor. And Rumi has a
really great quote, Rumi says,you know, the Sufi poet, he

(37:20):
says, If you do not have aguide, you will need 200 years
to take the two day journey.
Yeah, if you do not have aguide, you will need 200 years
to take the two day journey. Andthat's the same thing in
science. When you have a guide,you have a mentor, then what you
get to trade out is trial anderror. So I would rather go sit

(37:47):
with a mentor, and then gopractice what he's showing me
how to do it, and then helpingme make these tweaks, then just
trying it up that that failed,waiting for results to come
through. That failed. Okay, gotry again. Right. That's the 200
years trial and error. And Ithink that's part of the human

(38:08):
experience. I think we allsigned up and the terms and
conditions of that, and we cantotally end up in our own human
journey in the trial and errorstage of it. Or maybe even
worse, where we don't even try.
Yeah, right.
On that would go to Yeah, we'regods but we're gods in training.
So it's like we have all theseaspects to be God in form, but

(38:31):
we're learning. We're learninghow to do that. Yeah. Which I
think is an important clue towhat you're talking about with
without holding it up pulling ina guru. Yep. And that's when God
changed for me and Jesus, therelationship strengthened, it
was like, Okay, I need to, Idon't know, I don't know these
things. I don't know what I'mdoing. So it's like, Oh, right.
Maybe I should start workingwith Jesus. Because he did.
Yeah. He had to figure it out.

(38:53):
Yeah, you know, yeah, for me. Imean, I think this is what the
the Western Christian world istalking about when they're
saying, we need to confess andprofess that Jesus is our
Savior. To me, I think what'sactually being said is, I need a
mentor, I need to figure out howto embody my own Christ

(39:14):
consciousness. And I'm going tochoose Jesus to be that mentor
for me.
Now, I think this is how I'veapproached it. I think the
Savior though the Saviorarchetype, right? With I need to
be saved. If you carry that inyour psyche and in your
subconscious belief system, andit's in our programming. Yeah.

(39:34):
Then you're going to constantlygo out in the world thinking
that you're, something's wrongwith you, and you need to always
be saved. And by the way, you'reevil. You had so many sins that
Jesus, you know, went throughthis whole process, so that you
could become clean. Yeah. Idon't know.
I agree. And I was reading inthe book of Mary which is the

(39:58):
Mary Magdalene her Gospel, we'vegot three copies of it that we
found in, in multiple languagesin different parts of the world.
First six pages ripped out.
Yeah. Interestingly enough. Andshe says in chapter three, I
believe it's chapter three,verse one through three, John
and Mary are talking to Jesus.

(40:22):
And John says to Jesus, he says,What is the great sin of the
world? And Jesus says back,there is no such thing as sin.
Now, I think what's really beingsaid here, is there's nothing
that takes away from yourwholeness. Now, there's things

(40:43):
that can create a tremendousamount of hurt harm, and pain
and pain. And but yet, eventhen, there's nothing that can
take away your your wholeness,and hand. So what i Another way
I might say that is that there'snothing that can shame you.

(41:04):
Because years ago, I was inprayer, working through a
struggle in my life. And Iremember spirits saying to me,
shame will destroy you fasterthan any sin ever will. And I
had no idea what was being said,I just knew it was true. That

(41:26):
shame would destroy me. And so Idove into Brene Brown, I learned
what shame was, I think simplydefine shame as being not enough
feeling like you're not enough.
It's a total lie. I think it'sthe great lie. Think shame is
the Great Deceiver. Yeah.
Because we all are enough. Andand so when you look at that

(41:48):
vibrational scale, right, you'veseen that with how how different
emotions carry differentvibration. And shame is like the
lowest vibrational emotion thatyou can carry. It's next to
death, essentially. Which isquite interesting, because
there's so much shame and guiltwithin religion. Yep. And so for
me, in my belief system, Ibelieve it's part of how it's

(42:08):
kind of anchored in of, hey, Ineed to keep going to this
church because I need to repentfor my sins, because I carry so
much shame.
Yeah. Yeah, so the word singoing back to like, there is no
such thing as sin. And then whatyou're saying with I need to
repent, right, and the chainthat that that drives in
repentance? Well, sin, the Greekword for sin is Hamas, dia, and

(42:34):
Hamas, DIA. It's used inmultiple different cultural
settings. One of the settingsthat it's used in as in the
military setting, and Hamas diacould be used, if you were like
an archer, and you were goingout to the battlefield. And so
to prepare to go to thebattlefield, you've got to take
your bow and arrow, and you'vegot to practice aiming at the

(42:57):
target and hitting the target.
And if you shot your arrow, andyou missed the target, that was
Hamas, dia, you missed the mark.
So you missed the mark, I thinkI've heard that one that that
sin was actually just missingthe mark. But in the mark, keep
practicing. So if I have if I'min the military, and let's say I
want to join Special Forces, andI'm gonna get my bow and arrow,

(43:17):
then I'm going to miss the mark.
What I've got to go do is gotalk to the Greenbrae.
Instructor, right, who hits themark, and who's been to a battle
and hit the mark. And he'sreally good at this. And if I
went to him and said, Nope, Ican't I'm no good at this. I
mean, the first thing he's goingto do is be like, hey, grab
another arrow. Yeah, let me goagain. We show it in a bit. No,
I can't. I'm not good enough.

(43:40):
Yeah, right. Shame, shame,shame, shame, shame, shame. And
so the word for repentance ismetanoia and metanoia. I think
better. Like the translation Ilike for metanoia is to re aim
or to try again. So to repent isto say, Okay, I'll pull out

(44:00):
another arrow to sin is to missthe target that you are aiming
at. So then I'm going to repent.
So in other words, you're inalignment and you're out of
alignment, right alignment andmisalignment. And we're
constantly in alignment and thenfalling out of alignment and

(44:21):
then getting back intoalignment. And because we're
this is the wrestle, right, and,and so you Yeah, right. When
it's talking about in thedoctrine of covenants of those
who inhabit Zion, it says Theseare they who have overcome these
things.

(44:42):
Right. It's like they could bein Zion if they hadn't.
Yeah, yeah. Because your heartswould ever say the good at
missing the mark. And evenbetter at renaming. But the
thing that makes it evenpossible is that they have a
mentor. Right, and this is whatit's supposed to mean by Rabbi
Yeah, is to be master or inother words, mentor. And so to

(45:04):
me, Jesus, Jesus is my mentor.
And, and Christ consciousness ismy target. And he's the guy
who's been there and done that.
He knows where I've been. And heknows where I'm going because
he's there. And so I think heembodied Christ Consciousness

(45:25):
better than anybody else that weknow of that we know of. Right?
And but he did it really well. Ithink Mary did it did it really
well, Mary did it really well.
The whole people after thirdNephi chapter 11 do it really
well. Jesus comes and visits theAmericas and chapter, you know,
if you if you believe in thestory that's being told, or

(45:46):
CATSA Kuato or, yeah, so there'sclearly were these people who
have existed who did it reallywell. And they embodied that,
that level of consciousness. AndI think that's the target we're
all supposed to be aiming at.
When you dive into the ancientEgyptian endowment, the Masonic

(46:08):
endowment, the LDS endowment,the very first thing God says to
man is awake and arise, right,you have to wake up to yourself
consciousness. I think that'sthe real message Jordan Peterson
talks really well on, on theimportance of waking to yourself
consciousness. But I thinkthat's the story that Genesis in

(46:31):
Adam and Eve is really trying toget to us is that we have to
wake up.
Do you think that that was aliteral story then? Or do you
think it's a parable?
I think I like Avraham Gillyachties take on truth. He says
that for truth to be, and Idon't want to put words in his
mouth. This is how I rememberit. This is how what he said to

(46:54):
me made sense, is that I neededto understand it, literally,
figuratively and symbolically.
And if it met all three ofthose, then you got a really
good chance that it's true.
That's interesting. So I thinkthat I think that there was an
Adam and Eve, whether that wastheir actual name, right? I

(47:16):
think that's their, like,American English name. And those
parts seem quite anecdotal to meand doesn't, I don't really care
in that sense. But symbolically,I bet you their names are really
profound, figuratively, I thinkthey probably mean a lot for me.
And this is what happens whenyou go into these endowment

(47:36):
sessions in all these differentreligions is that you're
supposed to respectively seeyourself as Adam and Eve, right?
And so it's really sayingsymbolically See Yourself Here,
you're going through thisjourney, too. And your journey
is the same as their journey.
Yeah. And my journey is reallythe same as your journey. And
it's, I got, it starts withwaking up. If I don't wake up,

(47:57):
everything else you've said tome doesn't really matter. Yeah,
until I can awake and thenarise.
Well, I think that that'ssomething that has been coming
in, recently, for me over thelast few weeks is, you know, in
my experience, I've only everexperienced ceremony and the
initiations and the endowment,all that stuff through Mormon,

(48:19):
the Mormon Church, the Mormonreligion, and yeah, every
religion has some form of that.
And it has we've had that. Yeah,it's it's probably the dawn of
time. Yeah. And that wassomething that because I know a
lot of people really strugglewith ritual or ceremony when
they leave religion. Because I'mlike, catching myself, because
you don't think anybody leavesreligion, but when they leave
religion they struggle withbecause they they assume it's

(48:40):
somebody trying to take awayyeah, because I feel like it is
a takeaway experience whenpeople have left because they,
they do wake up, there is anelement of waking up and going,
Okay, how this is operated andhow this is being ran. It
doesn't resonate with my soulanymore. And so, to every one
that istrue, I think that's true. I've
heard how it resonates withthem. I've heard how they've

(49:02):
understood the terms and theconditions. And given their
definition of it and theirexperience of it. I think
they're doing the right thing.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's like therehas been ceremony initiations
for forever. So there is apurpose and a place for it. I
think that for me and myexperience, I'm curious to see

(49:22):
what else gets to be created.
Yeah. That you know, when youtalk about Zion say there's a
community like that, that endsup happening. I wouldn't be
shocked if there wasn't ceremonyand rituals that would happen
100% Because it helps theprefrontal cortex engage in the
human mind to be able to believein what I'm doing. Yeah, I just

(49:42):
had this discussion withsomebody just the other day, one
of my best friends and I wastalking to him about the idea of
this ritual of priesthoodblessing and laying your Hey,
you know, they lay your barehands on your head or or you lay
your hands on someone else'shead. And what I realized is

(50:04):
that there's not there's notmagic in the laying on of the
hands. It's it's a ritual thathelps me believe that something
is actually happening. Andtherefore I get to increase my
own belief, right. This is whatJesus said is be believing. So I
think rituals actuallystrengthen our belief in the

(50:26):
thing that's happening. Yeah.
And, and so not to say thatthere couldn't not actually be
power in our hands. I think thatthere is I'm not trying to
diminish that. But I'm trying tosay that the ritual is to help
us increase our belief thatthere is something there is this
energy there is this this giftthat's happening. And so the

(50:46):
giver of the blessing is not thesavior. The Giver of the
blessing is simply engaging in aritual. And I think this happens
in Reiki, it happens, right?
We're always using our hands. Iteven happens in just business

(51:06):
dealings, when I just givesomeone a handshake, right,
there's a so a token and asymbol right there. And we do it
when we meet new people. And soI could probably jump down a
rabbit hole of the thing I don'tunderstand. And I don't
understand why the religionskeep it sacred. Where

(51:29):
you have to in order to enterthe house, you have to
Yeah, and I think it ought to betaught openly.
Yeah, but even so when you talkabout the Holy of Holies, with
Abraham, in my research in mystudy, and I'm trying to
remember, there was a video thatI watched, oh, his name's Anna,

(51:51):
come to me. He's a quantumphysicist, and he's brilliant.
Anyway, I'm not gonna remember,although it's relative of my
time, you know, he did thiswhole three hour long
documentary where he actuallywent and followed the Ark of the
Covenant. And where he believedyou were telling me about, I
don't remember Croix know,somebody else. He goes into math
and and the DECA, DECA hedron.
And talks about I mean, it'sjust fascinating. And some of

(52:15):
it, it's like, Okay, I gottapause this for a minute, because
my head is going to explode. Butthey follow the Ark of the
Covenant, and they got wherethey believe that it would be,
and they would find oil, andthey would find the, I guess,
Tinder or whatever it would tobe delight the incense. And the
Sarcophagus is in I can'tremember which pyramid, it was,
what exactly fit this ark, theArk of the Covenant. And they

(52:39):
believe that the Ark of theCovenant is the Holy of Holies.
And that it was some sort of aportal. And the only way to step
into the presence of it, youwould have to anoint yourself
with oils, because the energy isso intense, you know, because
everything we're talking aboutis energetics. When you're
talking about a blessing land ahand, Reiki, we know that
everything is energy, this is99.9 99%. Space, its energy. And

(53:00):
you know that as you weretalking about the Holy of
Holies, is it possible thatthere, yeah, okay, anybody could
go in there. But hey, we'regonna just, you know, to make
this fair, yeah. Because therewould have to be some sort of a
system or you'd have linesconstantly of people are looking
for something to save them,stepping into the space,

(53:22):
connecting somehow through somevortex portal, whatever. And,
and if I, when I researchedthat, if I remember correctly,
you did have to be in a state ofpreparedness, emotionally,
mentally, spiritually, you know,the road to Ulis, this talks
about how people would preparetheir whole lives to go to this
temple experience and have thisonce in a lifetime experience

(53:43):
where they would die before theydied. Anything that that is what
has gotten is kind of whatyou're talking about that silver
bullet. Everybody's looking fora magic pill. Hey, just give me
the answers. And that's what Ithink religion has done a
disservice.
They've said, we have the wehave the answers. And we're the
silver bullet.
Right? Yeah. And so everyone'sbeen so conditioned to that,

(54:05):
instead of hey, find out to whatyou're speaking to find the
answers within your your ownsovereign being that could
receive downloads, and canfigure out how to find your
wholeness. And then in thatstates have the ceremonies in
that you don't I'm saying?
Yep. Yeah. And here's the here'sthe reason why I think the

(54:25):
endowments across all thereligions are so important. And
I'm grateful for the organizedreligions that have kept them in
the state and intact to thedegree that they have been
funded. At least we get toexperience them now. And what I
mean, more specifically, likethat is like a perfect example

(54:47):
is the endowment in the 1800s.
With Joseph Smith, was about 13hours long, holy cow, and now
we're trying to shave it undertwo hours. Do you think that you
psychedelic sem 100%That's what I'm wondering. I
mean, because there's noquestion that Joseph use my
psychedelics in my opinion whenhe's seeing things, and he's a
seer and looking at magicstones. Yeah, you know?

(55:12):
Yeah, I think that there is astrong strong case for the use
of entheogens. In the origin of,of the church.
Well, there has been studiesthat have found that there was
Arigato, which was from barleythat was a hallucinogen or
psychedelic that has been foundin the old old like Jesus's time

(55:33):
and the wine goblets that theydid use it as yeah,
there's a fascinating book onit. I wish everyone would read
it. It's called the immortalitykey. Yeah, I
could not get through it. It'syeah, heavy. Well, I loved his
podcast with Joe Rogan. Yeah, Ilistened to that. And then I got
I got his book, and I'm like,Oh, my God. Yep.
Yep. Brian, Marcy.
Yeah, Bruce Gu or something likethat Mariska and the name I was

(55:56):
taught. It was Nasim her M. Oh,yeah. Yeah,
I follow him on Instagram.
He's fascinating. He'sbrilliant, brilliant, brilliant,
super brilliant.
The endowment I think, are superimportant, because I don't think
I think the kingdom of God isinside of us. Agree, don't think
that anything that we need isoutside of us. But I think the

(56:17):
things outside of us, if doneproperly, are there to help us
learn what's inside of us?
Right. And I think the endowmentis one of those external things
that helps. When taught inproper context, me understand
me, and what's going on inside.
And what this is all about. AndI think the endowment story is

(56:40):
actually there. But it's, Ithink a lot of its context has
been lost or drink strudel atall. Yeah. And so an easier way
to say that is that what'shappening in my real life is
what I'm learning in theendowment session. So I don't

(57:01):
have to go to the endowmentsession to receive my garments.
I've already received them theday I was born. In my opinion, I
think that's your human body.
Yeah. Right. It's your coat ofskins. It's your epidermis.
Right. And so I think that it'sa beautiful thing to have
garments that are symbolic forpeople who are in a state of
being prepared, becoming theinitiate, and then also needing

(57:23):
that daily reminder. Oh, yeah, Iam. The I'm here. And I've been
born and I have this so. So theendowment session, for example.
I spent a couple of yearsstudying it mentoring under some
amazing mentors. I created apresentation that about two and

(57:44):
a half hours long, it just seemsto take that long to get to get
through it, maybe even threehours long. I had hundreds and
hundreds of people who left thechurch come to me and say, What
the heck was the endowment?
Because I think it was BS. And Iwas like, well, I'll give you

(58:06):
the endowment, according to you.
And here's this three hour longthing. Here's a three hour long,
you're welcome. I had hundredsof people coming to it. And I
stopped doing it. Because you, Iwas feeling like they were
starting to put me up on apedestal like I was going to
give them something. And maybemy ego was getting involved. And

(58:28):
they were turning to me to findthe answers. And I was like, No,
you just have to understand I amso damn geeky, that I just geek
out on this crap. And I do thehomework. And I do it with
people that also do thehomework, have some amazing
friends that really dive in anddo deep homework with me. So
it's not even my whole thing.

(58:49):
Like very little of it as mine,I piece it together really well.
But I've brilliant, brilliantfriends that that really put
this together. And so I justpresent really well. And, and so
I ended up stopping and doingit. But one of the things that I
realized was that like theanointed, right, like we're all

(59:11):
anointed, right? And to becomean initiate, you have to be
washed and anointed. Right? Butwhen my mom and when everyone's
mom, when her water broke, youwere Washington water. And then
when you were born in the womb,you're anointed in the blood of
your mother, right? So they're,you've been Washington anointed

(59:31):
to become an initiate. And thenyou got a body which now you've
got your coat of skins. And sonow you have your garments, and
not so that you can do your workhere on the earth. And, and then
you received a new name. Yeah.
Right. And it's like, oh, thereit is. Right there. Right. So
when I go to the endowment inany of the religions, what I'm

(59:53):
looking at is I'm like, Oh,there's the story. They're just
trying to teach What's actuallyhappening in my human
experience? And I think that Ithink the temples that hold the
endowments are, I think theyought to be thought of as a
university. But if theuniversity can't teach the

(01:00:15):
content in context, the deliveryof it is going to be poorly
received. And I think that'swhat's happening right now.
Yeah. Yeah. I know, as you'retalking, one of the things and
you and I've talked about thisbefore, because I've been
sitting with this for a while,as well as the idea of
ascension. You know, we even in,in religion, and, and in the

(01:00:38):
woowoo world, it's all aboutthis ascension, you know, we
want the planet to ascend, wewant us to send, you know, how
did the city of ViennaCassandra, how did they figure
that out? It's always this idea.
In fact, the definition is to,you know, climb a ladder to go
up higher. But the truedefinition and and Mary's gospel
talks about that, that it'sactually going further in. Yeah,
to go within to go furtherwithin. Yeah. And then again,
that's where you find yourwholeness. And that's how you

(01:01:00):
ascent? Yeah. And, you know,that's, that's one thing again,
beaking to language that's justbeen a little misconstrued of,
or misunderstood that, no, it'sactually not, we're not leaving,
we chose to be here in thesehuman bodies to have these coats
of skin to learn how to be Godand form. You're here. So how
are we going to figure out howto stay here and make, you know,

(01:01:21):
have a better life, enjoy life,enjoy the experience, and have
fun and play and create thisworld was meant to create? And
we're supposed to be brothers ofideas and experiences and you
know, children?
Yeah, totally agree. Totallyagree. I think when we stop
being hypocrites, that's ourdead works. I've caused this

(01:01:45):
church to be built up in thelast days because of your dead
works, right? Because you'rehypocrites, you're not really
living up to you're notembodying you're making
agreements that you don't keep.
Right? Well, and you're stillasleep. And you're still asleep.
And that's okay. I don't thinkthere's anything wrong with
that. I think. I think there aremany times that I have made
agreements in my life and havenot been able to be impeccable

(01:02:07):
with my word in keeping thatagreement. That's a really I
mean, that's a shadowy thing tosay, right? That's something I
have to embrace. But obviously,there's times that I've done
that. And I think we all have,we all have, and so it's okay.
The the thing about it is thatyou have to eventually become

(01:02:32):
impeccable with your word, youhave to eventually live up to
the agreements that you'reyou're making, and you're and
you're keeping, right. And thoseare the people who I think have
embodied their wholeness arethose who know themselves so
well. They know their character,and they know what agreement

(01:02:55):
they can keep, rather than justthe ones they want to make.
high integrity. Yep. Now, youdidn't share out your story of
why you chose to leave.
So, um, I think the I mean, partof it is. I mean, part of it is

(01:03:22):
that I just, I think I ran outof temperance. I don't think I
had enough temperance, maybe notenough patience, not enough
meekness, to sit with people whowere supposed to be my brothers
and sisters, but I didn't reallyfeel a true connection and
belonging to Yeah, so there's alot of complexity to that. I

(01:03:46):
could have done better, I think,an obvious I could, like, still
go back. I don't have a desireto do that. Because I have that,
that community. You have acommunity now I have a community
now. And, and, and I like my, myMormon community, you know, I
would never, in my opinion, I Idon't ever see myself fully

(01:04:10):
leaving the church. I knowpeople who want to go on
missions or they want to go, youknow, do those things. I'm fully
supportive of that. It's theirchoice. It's their choice. It's
their human experience. It'stheir, their journey. So I would
never discourage any of that. Ithink a lot of good is done in
the world because of it. I thinkI did a lot of good in that. But

(01:04:36):
for me, in leaving, I think thatI think any church is a
preparatory church, I think iswhat it is. And I think it's
really important to have them.
But you know, I asked this topeople all the time, like when
was the last time you went backto fifth grade? Right. And

(01:04:58):
people are like, why wouldn'twrite, or think about it, even
in a better context? Because youcould also say, when's the last
time you went back to college?
People who have graduatedcollege, don't go back to
college, right? Like they don'tgo back and redo that one day.
Yeah. And that's because itprepared them to go do bigger
and greater things. And sothey're off doing bigger and

(01:05:20):
greater things. Now, they maycome back to go help people make
it through that stage, becausethey made it through. And that's
a super cool, awesome thing todo. And so we can view church
that way, with no ego in it,right? It's not to say that one
is better than another. But if Ilearned the basics of math, so
addition, subtraction,multiplication, and division.

(01:05:43):
Once I learned that, right, thenI move on to algebra. And once I
move on to algebra, I move on todamaging the next level
geometry. Yeah, geometry. Andthen we go on to trigonometry,
right, and then we just continueto go on and go on and on. And
then you got the quantumphysicists doing the math
problems that I'm like, Wait,when did punctuations and

(01:06:06):
letters become numbers and allthese things, right. And so. So
the guy who's doing the quantumphysicist, math, whatever that
is, he's still using additionand subtraction and division. So
we didn't throw that away. Andhe didn't get rid of it. Yeah,
that was a foundation. And thatwas a preparatory thing. And so

(01:06:28):
I think that's what happens inthe church is that they give you
the foundation, and they giveyou the preparatory thing. But
when all you ever do is justmath, the basic math over and
over and over and over everysingle year, to me, it was like,
This is awesome. This is This isbeautiful. But the the the juice

(01:06:53):
isn't worth the squeeze anymore.
And I want to go squeeze sweeterthings. But I'm not going to
throw the baby out with thebathwater. Yeah, I'll throw the
cultural crap out all day long,right. And there's a ton of
that. And I think that the, the,I know that people that that
are, like running big, bigdepartments in the church, I

(01:07:18):
know them on a personal level,I've had a chance to work with
some of the apostles. Andthey're amazing people, like,
seriously amazing people,nothing I've known some of them
for years, nothing in their lifetells me that they're trying to
create this conspiracy, to getpeople to, you know, do this,

(01:07:40):
that the other, I think themajority of it is just the
culture that the people areactually creating, not the
organization. And, and that's avery, very complex problem, I
think any business has to figureout how to help their culture
out. Apple is trying to figureout how to make their culture

(01:08:00):
better. Google is a greatexample of someone who's trying
to be really on the cutting edgeof helping their culture out.
And businesses now today arestarting to not trying to jump
down some rabbit hole of this,but businesses are really
starting to say, hey, we need totake care of the emotional well
being of our, of our employees,so that they don't want to leave

(01:08:22):
Well, I think churches arelooking at the same thing. And
they're like, Oh, we haven'treally helped people deal with
their emotions. And when you'retelling a shame based story,
that you're not enough, thatdoesn't help people deal with
their emotions, especially whensuch hard challenging things are
happening. It's too easy tobecome hardened from hard
things. Yeah. And the, the thesolutions, the solutions that

(01:08:45):
the churches are giving arewatered down. Yeah. That that
don't have enough nutrition tobe able to make sense of the
sorrow and the pain and the lossthat I'm experiencing in my
life. So the juice, this thenbecomes not worth the squeeze.
And that's, that's why I reducedmy activity.

(01:09:11):
I like that. Well, I appreciateyour perspective. I don't know
that I wholeheartedly agree. Youknow, in any corporation, it
does come from the top. And I dothink there's a lot of greed and
ego within the top of the Mormonreligion. I mean, plain and
simple. I think that maybeJoseph Smith, a lot of people
have an opinion of him, I thinkthat he was trying to create a

(01:09:32):
sacred School of sorts. And hewas human and has an ego and has
filters just like everyone else.
And then it gets passed on tosomeone else who has filters and
has an ego and however manygenerations have passed. Now,
you have all of that making thisinteresting soup, if you will,
that has created what isexisting today. And you could
say that about any corporationon this planet. There are some

(01:09:53):
that are more wholesome, andothers that are are less
wholesome.
Totally. You know, Ithink that the patriarchy piece
has beenhard. It's out. It's out of
balance. Yeah, it's definitelyout of harmony. Yeah. If you
have patriarchy, then you haveto have matriarchy, right. You
have to have it. If we're livingin a world of duality, and

(01:10:16):
harmony and balance, if you'vegot light, then you got to have
the dark right if you've Yeah,if you've got joy, you have to
have sorrow. Yeah, verse youhave to Vice you have to have
virtue. Patriarchy, nope. Don'tneed matriarchy. Like that
doesn't make any sense.
Well, that's going into the egoand power right? Have no we're
better than. And that's thething that, you know, when Jesus

(01:10:40):
started, he went to the sick, hewent to the ones that had demons
he went to you know, it wasn'tthat he went to the people that
were righteous, quote, unquote,righteous, depending on that.
Your perspective were theones that he was not happy with.
Right? He was like, Oh, youvipers, huge generation of
vipers. Yeah, right. Yeah. He'snot happy with the ones that
were the quote unquote,righteous ones. Right.

(01:11:00):
Right. So when you found you'regetting close, I'm probably
needing to wrap up. But when youfound because most people when
they live, leave religion, theirfoundations gone. They have a
lot of anger. They're goingthrough a death process. And
most people, the community is abig piece. How did you find your
community after leave after notleaving religion, but choosing

(01:11:24):
not to go anymore?
Yeah, reducing my activity? Yes.
I had a lot of people that I wasmentoring with, that we were
kind of going through ittogether. Yeah. And so we, I
don't know any of us that areangry. I think some of us are
very disappointed. But I thinkthe things that were

(01:11:49):
disappointed in, I think thosewill eventually be fixed. I
think there'll be corrected orhealed. brought into wholeness,
and brought into wholeness.
Yeah, I don't like the wordfixing. I would restate that to
healing or wholeness. Fixing isan IQ way of trying to bring an

(01:12:13):
EQ right. Challenge intowholeness, right. So you can't
use an IQ to solve an EQproblem. And so fixing is IQ
healing, I think his EQ, andyeah, so I never felt like I
lost my community. That's good.
I didn't have any anger, either.

(01:12:36):
That's an interesting thing. Ididn't have any I still have no
anger, no animosity, no nothing.
I'm like that, but I've alsolost a tremendous amount in my
life. In my personal life, sowhere I did experience loss and
anger in my personal life, andhurt and pain and all the shadow

(01:12:59):
emotions. That thoseexperiences, I was looking for
healing in the church and didn'tfind it. And so where I went and
found it brought me great joy,and I didn't blame the church
for not healing me or because Idon't even think that that there

(01:13:24):
was a time that I thought thatwas how it was supposed to be
supposed to be. But then I kindof phased out of that. So I get
that some people are very hurt.
And the culture is so deep intheir family lives, and it's

(01:13:45):
really, really painful andreally challenging for them. So
I'm not trying to diminish anyof that reality to them. I just
didn't experienceYeah, yeah. And I was asking you
about your experience. So thatwas yeah, that was perfect. What
advice would you give forsomeone that's listening that
struggling you know, they'veleft they've lost their
community because most peopledo. Yeah. Um, what advice would

(01:14:07):
you offerI would say well, I would go
back to the formula that we wentover at the at the retreat, you
know thatso come Sunday let go the

(01:14:31):
story let go the story thewounded story. It's, it's okay,
here's what happens. Youexperience you experience
something that feels like or isabandonment betrayal, rejection,

(01:14:59):
abuse. Do you have thatexperience, that experience
brings great sorrow, the sorrowcomes with an extremely powerful
perception of loss. That's whyit's so painful. And that then
comes with a whole bunch ofshadow emotions, the fear, the

(01:15:22):
anger, the sadness. And nobody.
If you think about it, no onehas taught us how to face and
feel those shadow emotions. Sothey feel horrible. And, and so
I want to run from them, right,I want to avoid them. And Brene

(01:15:44):
Brown says, if you havebitterness or resentment, it is
because you have pain that hasbeen avoided or ignored. And so
I think when there's bitternessand resentment towards the
church, or towards anything, anyother person, it's not, because
what they did, should be judgedas a bad thing. It's that no one

(01:16:07):
taught you how to sit with thepain and the shadow emotions
that came. So when you don'tknow how to sit with it, you're
going to avoid it, and you'regoing to ignore it. And when
you're going to avoid it, ignoreit, the first thing you're going
to do is complain about it,because complaining is the way
to talk about pain. And so if Icomplain, I'm now talking about

(01:16:31):
my pain. If I'm talking about mypain, I'm going to find the
evidence that shows where thefault was at right. And now I'm
blaming, and now I haveevidence, which is blaming the
thing, or the church or theother person, and then I'm
shaming because that should havebeen better. And it was not

(01:16:53):
enough. And now I'm going tojudge it as to that, whether it
was right or it was wrong, andI'm going to judge it as it
being wrong. And this is whatJesus is saying in the Sermon on
the Mount. It's Matthew seven,verse one, he says, Do not
judge. In Greek, it says do notmake a determination whether it
is wrong. And so it's painful.

(01:17:17):
But no one showed you how to sitwith your fear and your anger
and your sadness and sit withthose emotional pains. So of
course, you're going to judgeit. Yeah. So what you really
need to do is, is attendretreats that teach you how to
sit and face and feel yourshadow emotions, and, and face
and feel the pain that you haveso that you can process it and
move it and heal it. Once youcan do that, then you can look

(01:17:40):
back on the experience. And thiswould be where my my answer
would come in if to answer thequestion is that we have to find
appreciation for the thing thatwe thought we lost. Because if I
don't find appreciation for it,then it doesn't have a lesson
for me to be taught. And thenhow do I learn more about me if

(01:18:03):
I, if I'm being tortured by theexperience that I can't be
taught by it? Yeah, right. So ifI can find appreciation, and I
don't have to be appreciativefor the abandonment, the
betrayal, the rejection or theabuse, but I do have to find
appreciation for what it taughtme about me. And then it has
value and when it has value, ithas meaning and any deep,

(01:18:29):
deep and painful experience ofsorrow that has no meaning is
miserable now. So now through myappreciation, I'm now I'm now
alkalizing my misery intomeaning. And then I can see the
the value that it had gifts andthe gifts that came with it. And

(01:18:49):
then from appreciation, I cannow move to accountability. And
this is a very, very difficultthing. Because the fact is, is
if the church isn't serving me,or the people that I know, and I
was a part of it. Now I have toask myself, what was my role in
that situation? And why did Ichoose in why did I choose in
and why did I choose to be apart of a part of it because

(01:19:12):
because I was teaching the elderSCORM I was doing I was doing
all of these these things too.
So I'm just as responsible oraccountable. So appreciation
brings accountability andaccountability is the ability to
account for what happenedwithout finding fault. And
therefore the only way I couldactually do that as asked myself

(01:19:32):
one question and the question iswhat was my role and the
situation of why it is the wayit is? See now I'm not blaming
it or blaming them. I'm sayingthis is where I could have done
better because these are stillmy brothers and my sisters this
is it's still my neighbors. It'sstill my community. It's still

(01:19:53):
the kids who my kids go toschool with. Right so so I need
to take responsibility I don'tlike the word responsibility.
But I needed to takeaccountability and ask what was
my role in the situation of whyit wasn't a great place to be?
Why wasn't the? Why didn't Ihelp the juice become worth the
squeeze? Yeah. So now I'mgetting out of blame. And then I
can move into empathy andrealizing I think we're all just

(01:20:14):
doing the very best we know howto do and being present. I think
that's my advice, appreciation,accountability and empathy.
Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.
Is there anything else you feellike? You want to add or share?
Yeah. Come to our events.

(01:20:38):
Yes. Well talk about well, andyour website, if people want to
find you, what's your webwebsite?
The website is Mustang medicine.
events.com.
Yeah, I'll make sure and putthat in the show notes as well.
And it's really been I mean, youand I have known each other god,
seven years now. Yeah, yeah. Andit's been fun to watch your

(01:20:59):
journey and where you're at andwhat you're doing now. And, and
the impact that you've had onpeople, and it's it's profound,
the work that you're doing isbeautiful and profound. So thank
you. Yeah. Thank you for sharingyour light with the world. Thank
you. Okay, well, I'll make sureto put that website in the show
notes. Awesome. Anything else?
No, I feel complete. Sweet.

(01:21:21):
Well, thank you. Thank you.
Didn't I tell you that would bea super cool episode. I hope
there was some wisdom that yougained some perspective that
maybe maybe you didn't have thatyou have a little bit of a
different perspective now withthe reality that there's truth
in all things. And like I said,we I will post his website down
below, if you have a chance togo see what he offers, it is

(01:21:44):
absolutely stunning. And to geta glimpse of what Hugh shares
and and get his formula thattook him years to create to come
join us for our speakersymposium this Sunday, April 24,
in Highland, Utah from 10 to6pm. And like I said, I'm really
excited. Not only do we haveamazing speakers, but we also

(01:22:05):
have a really beautiful soundhealing that will be brought to
us in the middle of the day. Soif you want to grab your ticket,
there's a few left, head over toAmanda joy loveland.com forward
slash lean in. And as alwaysknow that you are not alone,
that we are here to find ourspiritual centers together to

(01:22:25):
find that wholeness that resideswithin each and every one of us
and to remember all that we aresending you all so much love