Strive Satisfied with Chip Hopper

Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:03):
Welcome to my podcast, if you've noticed, it's had a
recent little change in thename, but it's still really
similar to what it was. And I'vehad a lot of feedback and even
just me energetically, thiswhole leaving religion and then
those we leave behind.
Oftentimes, we don't leavebehind anyone. And so I wanted
to take that out of the title.

(00:25):
So now you'll notice that it isleaving religion a guide, and
really this podcast is it mymain motivation for doing this,
this podcast is to assist thosethat are leaving religion to
really coming back tothemselves, what that looks like
how to find your spiritualcenter. And in that I get to
have beautiful conversationswith individuals who have

(00:45):
navigated it and who have hadsome really significant
experiences in their life tocoming back to themselves and
how they did it. So my nextguess is no, this conversation,
you guys was so fun, it's alittle longer, truthfully, we
could have gotten hours long inour in our conversation, and
maybe I'll have him on again.
But this is a really beautifulconversation, diving into

(01:07):
relationships, and abuse and mygoodness, all sorts of things,
and deconstruction of systems,and whatnot. So I'm excited to
dive into this conversation. Butfirst, if you haven't picked up
my book, please go over toAmazon and grab it. This book,
you guys, it's a simple read.
It's a really short book, but itis a powerful book. And it has

(01:30):
tools in there to guide you backto yourself to remove and to
help to deconstruct those placesthat are still active within
your psyche and within thesubconscious mind. So if you
head over to Amazon, the booktitle if you search,
leaving religion, and thosereally behind, you will find it
and it looks like Amazon isactually it's been doing so well
that Amazon is discounting theKindle version right now. And it

(01:51):
may discount the paperbackversion, I'm not sure. But
either way, it's reallyinexpensive. It's 30 or $13.33.
And then on my website, Amandaloveland.com, forward slash
leaving religion tools, I wasguided to do a four part series
of guided meditations to go evendeeper with deconstructs

(02:12):
deconstructing religion withinyour energetic system. And those
are very, very powerful. So youcan head over there and grab
those. And then last but notleast, but I have a group
mentorship that is starting July6, that I have a few more spots
available. And this is a sixweek course. And as I've stated
before, for those that arewanting to dive into this

(02:33):
program, message me I will sendyou more information. And
because you are one of mylisteners, I will send you a
signed autographed book.
My leaving religion book I willsend to you for free. And that
book is for those that arepeople that are going through
transitions, we get to assisteach other and help each other
and this course will be youknow, will there'll be a lot of
amazingness to it. So if you'refeeling a yes, message me on my

(02:57):
social media sites or email me,I'll put my email down below.
But let's now dive into the morefun part of this podcast in my
interview with Chip hopper.
Well, hello, hello. Well, hello.
We've been sitting here for over42 minutes now just chatting
away. We just recorded thepodcast without recording this

(03:19):
amazing conversation. And I'mreally grateful. I'm sitting
here with Chip hopper. Did I sayyour last name? Right? Yes,
yeah. We have known. We've knowneach other but don't know each
other. And so that's why I thinkit's so fun to have this
conversation of Oh, wow. We havethe same. We think like, yeah,
yes, I've been very closefriends with your brothers for

(03:40):
many, many years. Yeah. We werein the MBA program together. You
were. I don't think I knew that.
Oh, man. So it is it is it's sofun when our Pat when paths
cross and it's like, oh, wow,how many years later? 2030 years
later? How long has it beensince exact days? It's been a
long time? Yeah, it was 2005? Ithink so when when your dad was

(04:01):
still here. Andin fact, he passed.
Right as I was coming on board.
Oh, so they delayed it. Becauseof that. And, and so that's what
I joined exact where was when hearound the time he passed. So
you didn't ever really get achance to know him? He was an
amazing man. I only met him afew times. But yeah, he was

(04:23):
amazing. Yeah, I had quite quitea bit and all his kids. So yeah,
we do have a lot of him in us.
And anyway, that's a whole otherconversation. But it's so fun to
cross paths again. And as we'vebeen chatting and kind of, I
guess laughing a little bitabout the conversation that
we're naturally having thatwe're going to discuss here.

(04:44):
It's not a whole lot rooted inreligion, although you were
Mormon. Yeah. Were you born andraised Mormon I was born and
raised Mormon. I was born inUtah, northern Utah in Ogden.
And the funny story was actuallyIn a beauty pageant when I was
younger, I was the junior Princeof sunset. So I won. I won a
beauty pageant. So now when Iwork with people in the pageant

(05:08):
world, I'm like, oh, yeah, I'vebeen in the pageant.
I was like, one, one and a half.
Oh my gosh, that's so awesome. Ihad this really large head. And
I guess that was apparentlyreally adorable.
That is hilarious. I love it.
But yeah, born and raised in theMormon Church, went on an LDS
mission to New York. While onthat mission, I read just about

(05:32):
every religious text for everyreligion that you can imagine.
And really, that started myjourney of
personal development andunderstanding the mind and how
we think my dad was a was adoctor, he was a chiropractor.
And when he was in medicalschool, we lived in Chicago, and

(05:55):
he would take me to the cadaverlabs when he was dissecting
bodies and put me up on thetable when I was five years old.
Wow. Andyeah, you know, people look at
it like, wow, that's disgusting.
But for me, it was like, it wasamazing to learn the muscles of
the body. Yeah. And I fell inlove with the body and then as a
teenager, and I fell in lovewith the mind. And I've just

(06:16):
always loved that developmentside. Oh, that's super cool. So
you did you stay Mormon for awhile? I did. I was married in
the temple. I was married forover 20 years, I think we were
together 25 and married almost22 of those.
And because we had made thatcommitment and that agreement to

(06:38):
to be married in the church, Ikept that in kept in the in the
faith forwhen till after our divorce.
Yeah. And then what happened foryou to decide that this wasn't
for you anymore? Well, I, I reada book a week for over 20 years
now. And and, you know, about 10years ago, I really started to

(06:59):
my Trent, my mind started totransition my thinking of
religion and religiousconstructs and things. And I
really don't think that I wasfully in on the religion for at
least a decade. But again, itwas something that,

(07:21):
you know, was a beautiful thing,right? And or there's a lot of
beautiful elements to it. AndI opened up to only a few people
about how I was feeling aboutit. One of them was my wife at
the time. And she would say, howcan you continue to have the
state callings or go to thetemple or any of these things?
If you don't know it's true? AndI would always say, Well, my 32

(07:42):
Faith is the hope for things notseen. And I would be like, it
would be lovely if if we couldhave our family for eternity.
And if this was just a piece ofour experience, and
you know, so, so it wasn't, itwasn't like I was betraying
myself. But it was challengingbecause, for me, I've always

(08:07):
been one, to questioneverything, and to really use
the scientific method and tolook at things and say, Is this
true? Is it really true? And youknow, one of my favorite things
about the scientific method is,when you put out a hypothesis,
your job isn't to prove thatit's true, your job is to try
and prove that it's wrong,right? And, and it only holds up

(08:27):
until someone can prove thatit's wrong. That is what science
is, science is right. And soI've always loved that approach,
and to look at myself, and to beable to peel back the onions of
myself and say, Okay, now that Ihave new information, what does
it mean about this? Andit can be an exhausting work,
right? We often get into thatspace of just flowing with the

(08:48):
beliefs that we have, becauseevery time you have to question
a belief, it takes decisionmaking processing, which is,
which, you know, we only have acertain amount of decision
making processing every day. Andthat's why will people like Mark
Zuckerberg wear the same outfitevery day. It's why Obama had
all of his meals and his suitsand everything planned for him

(09:09):
and so that he could focus hisdecision making on what was
necessary in the role that theywere in.
But, but when the when therelationship ended, I was able
to really look at it and go,Okay, now that I don't have the
constraints of saying, I'veagreed to be in this. What's
really true for me, andthe structure of religion just

(09:33):
doesn't resonate with me in thatway. Yeah. So did you wait until
after your divorce before youleft religion or did you Yeah,
yeah. So well.
Kind of I mean, when when,when things ended kind of
dramatically with all of mystuff in the in the yard.

(09:59):
You know, that waswas about a year and a half
before the divorce was final.
Andyou know, I did stop doing a lot
with the with the organization.
But I still had, you know, I hadstate callings, I actually had
to stay callings clear through2019, I believe, you know, and

(10:21):
I was the steak auditor. And soI was responsible for, you know,
monitoring all the finances ofthe steak and steak athletic
director. And so I was veryheavily involved with the youth
always loved coaching, I alwaysloved working with youth
than a football coach and abasketball coach and a soccer

(10:41):
coach, and you name it so.
So I wasn't really activelyparticipating, but I also wasn't
just fully stepping away. Yeah.
Well, then we're gonnaas you were sharing a few things
I, I asked you if you'd be opento talking about it on our
podcast, becauseit's been really, I don't

(11:05):
believe in coincidences. And Ijust shared a Post this morning
about some things that had beenin my arena, as far as things
that we experienced, and youwere sharing some aspects that
you've experienced as a male inyour relationship, that it does
not get spoken tovery much at all.

(11:30):
Andso I would love to talk a little
bit more, you know, one of thethings I thought was
fascinating, and it's somethingthat's actually paralleling in
my life right now. And I'llshare a little bit about that
here in a minute. ButI'm, like, I'm trying to figure
I'm trying to fill into how toopen this up. In my personally,
I'm going through an interestingshift in my relationship. My

(11:54):
husband and I, who he'll be onmy podcast these days, and we
will openly talk about this.
Because I, I believe that as weshare the places that we're
going through in our lives, andyou help people write books, and
I've written books, it allowsfor our healing to be open and
to be talked about instead ofbeing quiet and slowly dying

(12:16):
inside thinking, we're alone inour, in our pain. And the more I
feel like we're open andvulnerable to the things that
we've experienced it, it opensup that conversation, it opens
up the possibility to new ideasand new thoughts that we can
maybe move through ourexperience a little bit
differently. And in myrelationship with my husband, I
got together seven years ago,there was a lot he had hid a lot

(12:40):
of who he had been for fear thatI wouldn't choose to stay with
him. And he, when this came out,and it was because the universe
was conspiring, it's like, Oh,you don't get to hide. And the
amount of people that came outof the woodwork to kind of to
open up this, these things thathad happened was quite
fascinating. And I chose to staywith him. And I and we had very

(13:04):
open conversations about it. Butbecause that had happened in the
rest of our relationship he wentforward with, I need to prove
that I You can trust me, I need,I need to prove myself to you.
And my needs were more valuablethan his. And now fast forward
seven years later, we had somethings that recently happened.
And a lot of it was because hehad lost himself in a

(13:27):
relationship trying to alwaysplease me now, it wasn't
something I ever asked for. I'malso a strong, dynamic woman.
And so it's easy for me to overto consume a little bit more in
a relationship.
And you had share some thingsthat I feel like there's not
there's no again, there's nocoincidences. So I don't know

(13:47):
exactly where you would like tostart with this. But if you're
open to it,I'm an I'm an open book.
You Yeah, talking about yourprevious marriage. How old were
you guys when you got married? Iwas 23 or 24. We got married in
July and my birthday is inAugust, so I can't remember.
Which it was I think that I was23 Turning 24 Yeah. How healthy

(14:11):
was your relationship in thebeginning? Um, you know,
I think it struggled from thevery beginning.
You know, I came as I said, Iwas LDS and I came home from a
missionwith the belief that the next
step was marriage. Right. Andmost missionaries have that
they're taught or Yeah, yeah,you're taught that. You know,

(14:34):
it's, it's the steps, right? Yougrow up, you go on a mission,
you come home, you get married,you go to school, and you buy a
house as a title with theAmerican dream and you have kids
and you raise them in thereligion and you have as many as
you can. And I was the oldest ofeight and growing up and so came
from a very large family, but Imet this amazing woman and you
know, the very first time I mether

(15:00):
We were we had me and my friend,as returned, missionaries had
crashed his younger brother'sbirthday party, who was getting
ready to go on a mission. And Imet her at that time. And we
were all playing volleyball andone of the players got injured.
And she immediately went intomom mode and went out and pack
some snow and put it on hisankle and raise it up. And then

(15:21):
like, wow, this is like amotherly figure, and she's hot.
So, you know, we had, there werebeautiful parts of our
relationship from the verystart. And I don't want to
diminish any of the beauty thatwe had, even through our whole
relationship. But there werealso challenges and
difficulties. You know, many ofthose tied around jealousy and

(15:43):
other things on both sides andthe difficulties in those
spaces. Andyou know, for me, a lot of
jealousy comes fromlack of self worth, right and
not feeling worthy of ofyourself. And so when you see
praise given to others,it's hard to see and feel. Well,
do you also feel like for me, Ifeel like this conversation you

(16:07):
and I are about to have issomewhat deconstructing the
traditional relationships thatwe have been taught and
programmed that this is what itshould be. And it within
religion, there are a lot ofrules within the relationship
and a lot of things that you doand you don't do in a
relationship, you don't go tolunch with someone of the
remember having released anyconversations makes, make sure

(16:28):
that you're not going to lunch,even if it's a business lunch
with somebody of the oppositesex just alone, like that's too,
it's too tempting, you know, thethe Satan's going to tempt you
to do something more, or makesure you satisfy your husband
before he goes on a businesstrip, because he may be tempted,
like all of these things, thiswhole idea that there's someone
out there pulling the stringstrying to destroy everything,
fear base, it is fear based. Andwe have we have so many social

(16:53):
norms that we come to accept asthe norms. And I love this
discussion, I could talk aboutthis on anything, right? It's,
it's not just religion, buteverything, everything that we
believe from the way we look ateducation and the way we look at
relationships to the way we doanything. And one of my one of
my favorite conversationsactually is talking about things
like Hitler. And would youfollow Hitler, and for me, the

(17:17):
people that are the most adamantsaying that they would never
follow a man like Hitler,because it's morally and
socially wrong, are the onesthat I think would most likely
fall into a scenario where theybelieve, because they're in that
environment. It's when you canchallenge the environment that
you're currently in and say,What about my current
environment is, am I justaccepting because of what has

(17:40):
become that way? And marriage isone of those things where most
of us step into marriage withouta contract without any
discussion of what it looks likeand what the rules are, because
of two things. One is we havethis preconceived notion of what
marriage is and what it means.

(18:02):
And the second is because assoon as you say, let's talk
about it from a kind of acontract and business
perspective, everybody's like,Oh, that's not love.
You know, all of a sudden,you're not speaking in terms of
what everybody's like, Oh, wait,love means that we just, it all
works. And it's all easy. And,and so not true. So not true,
right? We all know that. Yeah.
And from that young perspective,you have no idea what you're

(18:25):
about to walk into. Because,right, we don't talk about the,
the consciousness that goesaround relationships. Yep. So
and, you know, when you when youtalk about showing up in a
relationship,you know, in relationships that
end and, and why they ended, youknow, that we are creating our
own experiences. And obviously,there are things that happen

(18:49):
that we can't control,but how we respond to them is
completely in our control. And Ican look back at every
relationship I've had and seethe things that I could have
worked on and could haveimproved. And,
you know, my, my recent partner,Brooke, and I both work in this
space. And I one of my favoritethings to say is like, we're

(19:12):
only here because every previousrelationship failed, right?
So it's a constant learning andevolution and the more you can
step into that, I think the themore you can find and and come
back to who you really are.
Yeah. And you had mentioned youknow, as I was kind of sharing
some things with my currentrelationship, you had mentioned

(19:34):
that in your partnership, a lotof the things you put your
partner above you for quite awhile your kids needs above
yours. Do you mind speaking tothat a little? Yeah, absolutely.
II've always been a giver. And I
don't know if you've seen ToyStory, but the dinosaur in Toy
Story was, was very much mypersonality. I don't like

(19:57):
confrontation.
And so I would look at people'sneeds, and I would
try and meet them in theirneeds. And often I would use
humor to deescalate tension andthings like that. But when you
start to give yourself in thatway, it's easy to get lost in

(20:18):
it, because the minute you seesomething not flowing smoothly,
and there's contention orpossible disruption, you try and
step into that space to smoothit over, which often means that
you're taking away yourthe things that you want, and
doing it for other people. Andthat was one of the things that
thatit's easy to look back now and

(20:40):
see, but it was one of thosethings that I didn't really even
recognize through most of myrelationship. And the other was
the true spirit of giving.
Right? Often. Often we talkabout giving, and we talked
about being giving. But it'svery rare that you find giving
that doesn't have some level ofexpectation. And I believed that

(21:01):
I was a giver that didn't haveexpectations. But I can look
back now and say, Well, yeah, myexpectation was I wanted people
to at least recognize that I wasbeing a giver. Yeah, just to
thank you was plenty, just seethat I'm giving right. But even
that just being seen as a giveris you know, somewhat of an

(21:23):
expectation. Andso yeah, that that created a
space where I really lost myselfin that.
And had to figure out who I wasafter I came out of that
relationship. Yeah. Well, Ithink the male perspective is
really fascinating. And I did apodcast episode a few ago, where

(21:47):
it's not just men, but becausewe're talking about this, a lot
of men are going through themotions, so do women but
especially with where, you know,you go on a mission, especially
within we'll talk with Mormonismmission, here's the rungs of the
ladder that you need to climb,just in your life, mission, work
money, you know, wife, kids,continue to provide, and, you

(22:11):
know, where, where are you andall of that. And
not to mention, you know, asyou're sharing some of these
things, as far as being a giver,what you shared with me before
it was because you were such agiver, it was so taken, and then
abused. And you had some abusethat happened in your
relationship, and not very manymen talk about this, because

(22:35):
it's usually and like you sharedearlier with our conversation
before the episode that in ourcourt systems, even in that
court system, it's people have ahard time really seeing that,
actually, women can be theabuser where they can be
physically and emotionallyviolent. And I feel like this is
something that if you're open toit, it gets to have a voice

(22:58):
today. Yeah. Yeah, I'm, I'm opento it, I, I want to preface it
by saying that, you know, Ithink that there are things that
we can all do to improve. Thereare things that that happened
in, in my marriage, and in manythings in life that,

(23:19):
you know, aren't aren'tnecessarily things that I want
tobring up as negative things or
point out to people, we've alldone things that we that we wish
we hadn't, you know, for meI've always been one that

(23:43):
has tried to not air dirtylaundry, right, because
it's when we are able to, towork through our dirty laundry.
Other people don't see that. Andthey still, you know, focus on
the, on the dirty laundry thatwas aired to them. And

(24:04):
so, so there's, there's someelement of it, that it's like,
what to talk about and what notto, but I do feel it's important
to talk about these things sothat people that are going
through them can can see outsideof them. Because when you're in
this space, it's very hard to tosee it and in my marriage, I

(24:28):
spend a lot of my time doingwhat I would call now damage
control of you know, things thatwould happen that I wouldn't
want my partner to look bad andso I would frame it differently
and I would you know, try andmake her shine in the in the
best light possible. So much sothat even going through our

(24:50):
divorce, I have a couple ofsiblings that shifted away from
having a relationship with mebecause of because of the
divorce and one of them saidinteresting thing to me once and
he said, he said, Chip, if yourswas the true story, he's like,
the person that has the truth isthe one that is sharing their
story. Interesting. And I said,No. For me, the one who wants

(25:11):
their story to be heard is theone that sharing their story.
And just because I'm not talkingagainst the story that is now
being givendoesn't mean that, that my story
isn't, you know, accurate. And,you know, clearly, we all live
in our own reality. And the onlyway we can see life is through

(25:33):
our own lens.
But there are there areabsolutely abusive things that
happened in my relationship, inthat marriage. And there are
things that I often covered upand didn't share. And,
unfortunately, that went againstme when she decided she wanted

(25:56):
to be done. And she shiftedthose beliefs to be things that
I had done.
So much so thatyou know, I have, I have kids
that have repressed memories ofthings that didn't happen, that
were very abusive, and veryslanted the other direction.
You know, I had, I had timeswhere, and especially,

(26:19):
especially as my partner wassignificantly smaller than me.
You know, even even in court,you know, that there was no
ability to look at theconversation and go, Well, okay,
how'd that happen? Right?
When I, at times were.

(26:40):
And this is, this is hard toshare here, because I don't want
to create a negativeand negative view of my partner
or anyone else, but, you know,I think it's important to have
these things and have theseconversations. And
there were times wheremy partner would run and throw

(27:02):
herself against me, and thensprawl onto the floor as if I
hadattacked her, right. And there
were times where she would jumpon me and then pull me down on
top of her. And for me, whenthose things were happening, and
as she would do them in front ofour kids, my thought would be,
my kids can see what'shappening. This is like, so

(27:25):
obviously, you know,manipulative and controlling,
and abusive, and, but butbecause I didn't speak up, and
because I didn't say, Hey, wait,this isn't, this isn't good,
this isn't. And I would cover itup, and I would

(27:49):
be alien, I was systematicallyalienated from all of my friends
from my family, when the divorcehappened,
you know, I allowed myself to bekicked out of my own home that I
was paying for. I allowed myselfto lose all the relationships
that I that I even had at thatpoint.

(28:13):
And to bereally vilified, as as, as this
awful person, and because I wasshamed, I had guilt, I didn't
feel worthy.
I mean, in 2017, there were anumber of times that I was

(28:34):
contemplating how to take mylife. And
I think, I think there's thispart of me that just
wants to live forever.
But there's also this part of methat doesn't want to be
remembered as a failure, if youwill. And so I would try and

(28:58):
come up with these ways where Icould die, but not really die,
so that my life insurance moneycould go to my ex into my kids,
because that's where I measuremy value was my financial worth.
And that had been beaten into methroughout my marriage that my
worth came from, from myfinancial.

(29:18):
And this, this actually tiesback to exactly where I left
exact were in 2016. Andspent the rest of the year
building a business and reallywanting to move in this
direction of more into thepersonal development space full
time and, and my ex would bevery frustrated by it. And I

(29:39):
hadn't realized until then, howmuch she relied on the
steadiness of the paycheck andthen the financial elements of
it andI wasn't when she would pull
away I wasn't there for heremotionally and, you know, I did
a lot of things that lookingback I was like, wow, you know,

(30:00):
I'm in working with with Brooke.
After my divorce,you know, I learned a lot of
things where I'm like, Wow, if Ihad known this and how to
respond here, I'd probably stillbe in that relationship,
although I wouldn't, I'm gladI'm not because there's such
better, better things out there.

(30:20):
And the approach of this, orsomething better is always a
huge one.
And I feel like I'm just talkingand talking, but I was gonna,
oh, this is perfect. And I knowthat this is an uncomfortable.
And I appreciate that you. And Iunderstand why you're prefacing
this with me going to six, myfirst book that I published was
about my relationships. And thefirst time I published it was

(30:43):
under a pseudo name. Becausethere is this really fine line
between, I feel called to sharemy story so that it may help
others and with the belief thatI have the belief that you have
we choose into these situations.
So while we may have been avictim to some of the things
that we've had happen in ourlives, we don't operate from
that victim mentality. And a lotof people, when they tell their

(31:04):
stories, it's vindictive innature. You know, it sounds like
with your ex wife, whatever shewas how she was flipping the
script, because she was theabuser. Of course, she's gonna
flip the script. And of course,you allowed her to do that,
because of the dynamic that wascreated in the relationship and,
and a lot of times the mental,right, the mental pieces that

(31:26):
started happening, especiallywith the tie and the bonds that
started happening in thatrelationship under the neath
those circumstances. And as aman, like, you know, I know,
it's, it's hard for men to, tocome out and communicate
clearly, or to whoever'slistening right now that I was
in an abusive relationship whereit was physically and

(31:48):
emotionally abusive, with mypartner, and I allowed it to
happen. Yeah, I think there is aan aspect of them of the
masculine ego, that steps in ofadmitting that must be a little
challenging. And yeah, I applaudit, I celebrate it. And I am
like, Thank God, somebody'stalking about this. Yeah. And
for me, like, and we talked alittle bit about this before,

(32:10):
you know, I have no problemsharing how I feel. And what
happened from that perspective.
The challenge for me is that Istill do love this person. And
I, and I fully accept that.
And you mentioned the worddynamic in a relationship, and

(32:31):
the dynamic in a relationshipis, is often something different
in each relationship, right? Youcan, there's a lot that we'll do
that we recreate, inrelationships, things that we
haven't fixed before.
But in this case, like, Ibelieve she's in a, in a much
better relationship. Now, I'vebeen in a much better

(32:53):
relationship as well, and thethings that I was doing in that
relationship.
You know, as things were fallingapart, there were a number of
recordings that that happened.
And I actually went through andlistened to a few of them before
coming here a couple days ago.
And in listening to those,absolutely.

(33:17):
There were a lot of things thatwere being done to me that were
just really awful, but, but myresponses weren't, weren't great
either, either, even than justthe being present and listening.
And I know that she didn't feelhurt, she didn't feel seen, I
didn't feel hurt, I didn't feelseen. And those pieces are
such powerful pieces in arelationship when you don't feel

(33:39):
heard or seen. Things can spiralinto in the places they they
weren't before. And, you know,most of our relationship, I
wouldn't consider most of ourrelationship as abusive.
It was a shift in the, in thestatus quo that really changed
that, right. And like 2016, forexample, is a fantastic example

(34:03):
of that I, I left exact were inApril of 2016. And as I was
building my business, I wentmany, many months where there
was no income at all.
But towards the end of the year,I worked for two and a half
months, and made more in thattwo and a half months than I had
made any year previously. And sowe ended 2016 with me having

(34:26):
made significantly more than anyyear previously, but in my in my
wife's mind at the time. It wasstill I wasn't contributing, I
wasn't working most of the time.
And and she began to preach thatto the kids that I wasn't
contributing, I wasn't what Iwas doing wasn't working.
And, and so you know, there areall these pieces that go into it

(34:49):
of where her needs being met ormy needs being met.
So, again, for me theMy hesitancy and talking about
it is more because I care aboutthese people. And,
you know, I don't want toapproach her as a villain or me

(35:10):
as a victim. In fact, I believestrongly that most of the ways
that we act out are because ofthings that happen to us in our
past that we carry with us.
You know, there were a lot ofsigns from her about things that
happened to her before ourrelationship that I wasn't,

(35:34):
like, I grew up. And at leastthe parts that I remember,
right, it was a great childhood.
You know, I didn't, I waslalalala, you know, I was a
pageant. Right? You know, Imean, in high school, I was one
of the, you know, little goodgoody two shoes, kids in my
junior year of high school. And,you know, I remember, between my

(35:57):
junior and senior year, I madeit onto the cheerleading squad,
which at my high school was, wasa really big deal. Like the, the
male cheerleaders were like,cooler than the football
players. And it was, we had asquad of like, seven guys and 14
Girls, and we traveled fordifferent events and things and
competitions. And, and I waskind of like the odd man out a

(36:17):
little bit, because we got inthere. And even though they were
all LDS, I was the only virgin,I was the only one that didn't
drink and didn't do parties.
And, but I was really opened upto this
new world, and I would walk downthe same hallways in school. And

(36:38):
I'd be like, I know that they'rebeing, you know, having sex, or
they're doing drugs, I knew allthese things that walking down
the hall the year before, and noclue. Right. And that was
similar with, with therelationship, it wasn't until I
moved into a new relationshipwith Brooke, who does work with

(36:59):
trauma and, you know, wentthrough a lot of trauma herself
as a, as a child.
She would say, you know, shewould open up to me about some
of those experiences that I wassharing with my, with my ex, and
she's like, you know, and I waslike, wow, I just didn't see how
would you have I didn't see it,because that would didn't even

(37:19):
resonate with me. Andyou know, so it's, it's one of
those things where it's likelife has continually like, the
more you open up to seeing itdifferently, and allowing
yourself to see things and openup to things. The world just
continues to shift. And, youknow, that's why like, when we
talk about religion,I don't have anything against

(37:41):
religion. For me, I've, I feellike I've moved to a different
space in my life. But one of thebooks that I like, I love
writing, right, and one of thebooks I've been working on for
many years is this concept. AndI don't know, maybe I should
give, I'll give away the concepthere.

(38:02):
It's a sixth sense type ofthing, but, but the whole
premise of it is, is that if Iwere to take myself now at 48,
and I would put myself withmyself, and now 48, maybe
there's enough of a gap now. Butif I had taken myself at 35, and
at 45, those two human beingswould have both felt very secure

(38:23):
in who they were and the waythey perceive the world. So much
so that both of them would lookat the other one and say, Wow, I
wish you had some of the insightand information that I have.
My 35 year old self, I wasmarried fully LDS for kids,
great job.

(38:45):
My 45 year old self, I'mdivorced, I don't really have
I'm not really in religion.
Okay, I'm not in religion.
Unless less, it's like thereligion of science or AI or
whatever, I don't know. Butthere's, there's a but every, we
all live in religions in a waybut
but you know, to see to see thisperson who is, you know, just

(39:08):
such different people, but bothof us
seeing life from our own lens.
And so that the concept of thebook is that there are these two
individuals that are opposed toeach other throughout the book.
And it's only as it gets to theend that they realize that
they're actually the same personjust separated, you know, the

(39:30):
bride into the same time. Andyou know, I've always had a
fascination with writing booksthat make you switch your
thinking. Like the idea, youknow, we talked a little bit
about him early on, but startingthe book, where and I'm going to
remove Hitler as the example butlet's say well just start a book

(39:51):
with somebody who, as you get toknow them, you start to believe
what, what they believe and howthey're aligned and you see how
they'reYou're trying to be good. But
then you switch to the otherperson's point of view. And by
the end of the book, you're likerealizing that, well, the the
one that would normally not beconsidered good is the one that
I had first fell in line withand liking what they were

(40:14):
talking about. And I love tryingto make people think that way.
That's one of the reasons I lovewriting, I believe that
empathy is a skill that can begrown. I didn't used to believe
that I used to have a fixedmindset on empathy.
But I believe empathy can be,can be grown now. And the best

(40:35):
way to grow empathy is one onone conversation, right. And you
know, travel is a huge way togrow empathy. But then, to me,
reading is a huge path toempathy, when you can sit down
and listen to someone else'swords, and really step into
those words.
You can really grow empathy. Andthat's, that's one of the

(40:56):
reasons I love to write. And Ilove to help people tell their
stories. I love that we're goingto talk a little bit about what
you do in a minute. But one ofthe things that keeps coming to
my mind is, I love this ideathat you're you're sharing
because, you know, if my 25 yearold self, or 22 year old self
knew my 42 year old self, Idon't know that she would be
really scared by my 42 year oldself of like, Wait, what are you

(41:18):
doing? And who are you? And no,that bumps too much against my
world? I'm out. Yeah. And, youknow, everything that we're
sharing, and even everythingthat this podcast does. We live
in a world where we are sotaught
all these things outside of us,right? God's outside of us
religion is is, hey, do this, dothis, do this, everything that

(41:39):
you're sharing you'reexperiencing, was really outside
of you, well, I'm a giver. So Ijust give to everyone else. And
meanwhile, the person that youwere was just getting lost and
lost and lost. When you talkabout you and your wife, both
were wanting to be seen andheard the truth in the matter.
And even what I'm experiencingwith my husband, now, there are
pieces that he was looking forme that I could never satisfy

(42:01):
for him, because he actually waslooking for that for himself.
Same thing with you. Same thingwith your wife. And that's what
I think is fascinating, that wereally
hungry, this is such a deeperconversation and a longer
conversation that that gets tobe happen one of these days. But
at the end of the day, oursociety has been so focused on
consumption, consumption,consumption, consumption, from

(42:23):
food, to sex, to money, torelationships, to greed to
power, I mean, you look at howmuch of it and it is all
external to try and satisfysomething within. And for me, I
feel like there is such a hugecall on the planet and for all
of us to Okay, it's time forthat to stop. Like when you're
seeing something in yourexternal world, that is just and

(42:45):
you're allowing for these thingsto happen. This is what I posted
today with when we stopped theimmune abuse of ourselves first.
Because I was in an abusiverelationship, I had to really
get honest with myself of wheream I abusing myself that I would
even allow this because thiswouldn't be in a resonance. And
I'm sure you have looked atthat. This wouldn't be in a
resonance for me to experienceoutside of myself, if I wasn't

(43:07):
doing that to myself first.
Where am I not loving me enough?
Where am I not feeling like I'mworthy enough? Or else these
things wouldn't be coming in myworld. And it is this time for
us to really start shifting intoasking those really crucial
questions within ourselves, sothat we can satisfy those pieces
within us so that we're notcontinually attracting abusive

(43:28):
relationships or attractingthese things that we're
constantly a victim to going,why on earth does this keep
happening in my life? It's like,well, something's screaming for
you to look at within you. Anddo you have enough courage to
look at what that is, becauseit's time for you to own your
shit, we need a whole nother weneed to spend hours on that one.
You know, I think that oftenpeople and this is another

(43:51):
concept that I speak to a lot aswell as very similar to what
you're saying is, we often feellike we're living in dissonance
with ourselves and notresonating. And a lot of people
have this focus of, well, if wecan just get balance in all the
elements of our lives. And, andfor me, like, again, I'm not,

(44:12):
I'm not trying to push againstthat. But I for me, it's more
about harmony, right? To me,balance is a state of standing
still, if you're imbalanceyou're standing still the minute
you got to take a step you'renot imbalance you're moving. And
for me, one of the things that Ihave people try and look at is,
are your actions and yourdesires aligned, right? And if

(44:33):
they're not, then you're thenyou're in dissonance and you're
and you're not resonating withyourself and that comes to
relationships too. And, andreligion and everything else, is
what you're doing resonatingwith what you want to be. And
one of one of the things that Isee in religion and in many in
many aspects of life, right?
Even in relationships, is you'llfind something that resonates
with you. And you'll find thatin this person. And you'll say

(44:56):
these things are great. So20% is resonating really well,
you know, 50% is like, yeah,that works for me. And then then
you've got this section ofspace, and I'm not gonna do the
math right here.
7050 2030, but you've got thispart that doesn't resonate with
you at all right? And, you know,I found that in religion, that

(45:20):
there were parts of it thatreally resonated with my soul.
And there were other parts thatI was like, Okay, this feels
okay. And then there were otherparts that was like, this
doesn't resonate at all. And,you know, going to the, the LDS
religion when I was growing up,and, you know, the issue with
blacks and not having thepriesthood, I would see blacks
in church, and I'm like, whywould you choose this? Right?

(45:42):
Why would you choose somethingthat made you a lesser human?
And so there were always theparts that didn't resonate? And,
and I think that the the concernthat that most people run into
is that concern, I don't know ifthat's the right word. But we
often allow the parts that don'tresonate with us to stay with
us, because we got into it,because of the parts that do

(46:05):
resonate. We almost ignore it,or like, or it's like, the I'm
just gonna put that on my shelf.
Oh, great, great comment. Andthe religion is, that'll all
work itself out. Yeah, right.
All right. I don't understandthat part yet. But I'm sure one
day I will. And, you know, thereis to the what you mentioned
earlier with, you know, we onlyhave so many decisions that we
can make during a day, there issome truth of that of like,

(46:27):
okay, when I'm ready to look atthat, or when I'm ready, but
then it isn't a place ofopenness, at least for where I'm
at in my life right now. It'slike, I don't know the answer to
this right now. But I'm open toreceiving whatever it is, and I
know, it'll come when I'm ready.
And that's a little bit of adifferent mindset versus
ignoring it. And I'm just notgonna have the conversation
around it. Because the truth is,I know what's wrong? You know?

(46:49):
Yeah, absolutely. I'm not, I'mnot saying that you need answers
for everything. In fact, Ibelieve that the healthiest way
to live is to be able to sit ina space of unknowing, and not
having answers to everything.
And, you know, when people cometo me now, and they're like,
Well, if you don't believe inreligion, what's the meaning of

(47:10):
life? And what's that? I don'tknow. I don't have an answer I
have, I have such a deepermeaning for what life is for
spirituality for what the divinelooks like, to me than I did
when I was in with with when Iwas in religion, and this is
kind of what I'm speaking tobefore we are constructs of the
world that have been built areso focused on how can we make
this outside of someone else sothat we can be the puppeteer,

(47:32):
frankly, that's what it is.
That's the system that we boughtinto. And religion is one of
those pieces. So if we canprogram you to actually do what
we tell you to do. Awesome. Hey,keep up, keep giving us your
money. And we can start to talkabout linguistics in there, too.
Like, the way the languageworks. But, you know, one of the
reasons that, for me thatreligion is prevalent is because

(47:57):
for civilizations andcollaboration and community to
thrive, you need to have acommon underlying belief system.
Right. And one of my favoriteauthors is you've all Harare in
sapiens and 21 lessons for the21st century and Homo Deus and
hit the whole series isfantastic. But, but really,

(48:18):
there's this everything that wedo, is built on story. And all
the stories are fiction. Right.
And but it's what sharedfictions do we have, we have a
shared fiction that the USdollar actually means something,
right. And because of, becauseof that shared fiction that we
have, we're able to build andthrive on it.

(48:38):
When you don't have those sharedstories, you don't survive. And
religion is one of thoseunifying stories that says, hey,
not only is this something thatwe can share a belief, but this
belief is worth dying for. So ifif a group comes out of the
woods to kill your little tribein the cave, instead of just
scattering, because you want tolive for yourself, you stand and

(49:00):
defend, because you have thisbelief of both, you know, those
that you're with, and also thisbelief of something that is
beyond, you know, and a faith.
Sothere's so many places we could
go with this conversation. Ireally am enjoying this, but
let me fill into where this getsto go.

(49:21):
I don't know.
One of the pieces that keepspopping up is Plato's Allegory
of the Cave, right? There'sthese people since birth, or
when they were young, they arechained up, and they only see
the wall of the cave and there'sa fire behind them. So all they
ever see are the shadows andthen one prisoner breaks free
goes out into the world and isso blinded by the light that

(49:45):
can't even you can't even seereally it takes them how long to
be able to see and asking thepeople there. What is this? Who
what what is all of this? It'slike it's this cognitive
dissonance is happening. And yetthere's evidence of him right in
front of him where he can touchit and see and feel
Do it, and then finallyrealizes, Oh, it's this thing
called the sun, that is givinglight. And so when he goes back

(50:05):
into the cave, right and triesto tell the prisoners, hey, holy
cow come out, come out, comeout. And they're freaked out,
they won't, they won't believein whatever he's presenting. So
these are the stories, I thinkthat it's fascinating that you
bring that up, becausethe narrative that gets to be
created and who's creating it,and what are you choosing to buy

(50:26):
into is a fascinating questionto ask yourself, and I'm saying
yourself as far as not YouTube,but all of us right to ask that
question of, what are we buyinginto? And when we have cognitive
dissonance? Maybe that'sactually an indicator to
recognize that, okay, this iswhat I'm having, having? And can
I be open to looking at it justa little bit deeper to see if

(50:48):
there isn't truth underneath it,because there has been a story I
bought into, and now I'mchoosing not to buy into it
anymore. So my world feels likeit shifting in such a way I
don't even know what to do. Youknow, when people leave
religion, the waters afterwards,trying to navigate those waters
are very challenging. Becausetheir perception, their filters
have now shifted.

(51:11):
And they're navigating in aworld that is colored now very
differently. And at first, it'soften gray. Because these things
that I bought into that werelight, and I knew where I was
going, and somebody could, youknow, I bought into it. And I
felt like it was spirituality.
And I felt like I had atestimony. And I felt that. And
now I'm choosing out of that.
And now that's dying.

(51:32):
What are the new stories that Iam creating for myself? Or that
I'm buying into anything thatthat's a really fascinating
thought to sit with of what arethe stories that I'm buying
into? And are they my stories?
Or are they someone else's?
Yeah. And that that, like, I getchills here? And that question,
I think that's fantastic, right?

(51:55):
It's one of the one of thefascinating things about life,
is thatit's impossible to remember the
exact way we felt before findingout something different because
as soon as our knowledge andinformation changes, we can't go
back and be that person that wewere or think that way.

(52:16):
And memory. You know, thestudies and things show that
every time we access a memory,we change that memory. And one
of the one of the discouragingstatistics is like our memories
are at most 50% True, right? Andthat happens in relationships,
like going back to my 25 yearsin that relationship. You know,

(52:38):
I didn't stay in 25 years ofjust hell and awfulness, right?
There were many, many beautifultimes in, in that relationship,
and, you know, things that madeit worth that, you know, we
often don't shift or changeuntil the pain of stain is worse
than the pain of shifting. Andbut it's it's easy now. And I

(53:01):
know on both sides, it's easy tolook back and, and be more
focused on the things that yes,it was obvious, I should have
left that like 10 years ago,right? Well, hindsight,
hindsight is 2020. But really isit it's only because that's the
way we've shifted our memory toalign. Because we have this need
to feel this consistency inourselves and believe that the

(53:22):
choices that we're making havemeaning and movement. You know,
one of the quotes that a lot ofpeople say is that everything
happens for a reason, right? Andare successful people know that
everything happens for a reason.
And for me, that's a little bit.
I don't quite buy into that. Andinstead, I shifted just a little
bit to say, successful peoplegive reason to everything that

(53:45):
happens. And if you can build onyour experience, and give it
reason and purpose to help youmove to a new space, that's
powerful. And that's taking,again, that's going from the
external like you were talkingabout to the internal and it's
taking that power into yourself,instead of giving it to some
external force or somebodyexternally that's pulling the

(54:06):
strings, you know, go to lunchwith a co worker, if it's about
business, and be the strongenough when to say that
internally, I have the power tomake whatever choice I want to
hear, you know, it's that Idon't need some external force
saying I'm gonna make youattracted to him because,
you know, take ownership of yourdecisions take ownership of what

(54:27):
you're doing. Yeah. Well on thatthat was something that we
talked about too before westarted recording was
the constructs of relationshipsin general, I do believe are
asking to be shifted. And we canhave, when I write about this,
you flipped up on my book, I wasshowing you some of my books and
I end up writing about sacredsexuality and how oftentimes

(54:50):
the connections that we'reasking to have with another
human being it doesn't matter ifthey're male or female, there
still can be a charge there withanother person that actually
could be just creative energy.
in general that you're feeling,but often we confuse it for
sexuality, or it gets to be thistaboo taboo experience of will
shit if I'm, if I do this, andthat's crossing a barrier, or a

(55:11):
boundary or a line. And really,I feel like in relationships to
what you spoke to earlier, whenyou go into more of a conscious
construct within a relationshipof hey, for me, I choose
monogamy, this is something thatI prefer to have in a
relationship for a lot ofdifferent reasons because of my,
my belief system. And in that,however, I totally trust you, I

(55:35):
trust myself and how I'm goingto navigate I trust you and how
you're going to navigate. And ifsomething down the road happens,
then let's have a conversationabout it. You know, other
people, I have a really goodfriend who believes that to
experience love, in a deeper wayit gets to be through an open
relationship, and then she has aconstruct with her husband, and
it works for them. And I thinkthis is where we get to start

(55:55):
being open to how relationshipsget to be recognizing that some
people are going to have apendulum swing. I mean, I've
seen that. I don't know ifyou've seen that. myself. I've
seen that very much. So yeah,like, Hey, let's go explore all
this. And, and I doyou know, especially out of
religion you go from, we'remarried for all time and
eternity to you're divorced, I'mdivorced, been divorced, a few

(56:19):
times relationships, and welearn things from each
relationship. And now what do Iget to create and life of, you
know, I believe multiple, wehave multiple lifetimes. So
maybe we've had multiplelifetimes together? And will we
know each other in the nextlifetime? Or after this life?
Absolutely. Whether we'remarried or not, whether we have
this paper piece of paper ornot, like, we know that energy

(56:39):
continues to move, it doesn'tever die. And we are energy. So
it is my favorite quotes byEinstein, right? Is the his
quote on where energy. So do youremember what the quote is?
I would butcher it, but it'slike, you know, we are all
energy. And it's, it's notreligion, it's, it's science,

(57:02):
it's just science, or physics orsomething like that. And so
you're gonna have to pull outthe real quote, and like, just
edit me out of this.
I'm supposed to be the quoteguy. And all I can remember is
that, like, I put you on thespot, actually, you put you on
the spot, I did put myself onthe spot. And for me, like, I
often remember quotes, but Iremember them as a feeling. And

(57:26):
so there are some, you know, andthis is just different
personalities, there are peoplethat, like, you know, Brooke is
one that is very, very good atremembering words. And in fact,
she sees a lot of her life aswords on a chalkboard, right?
And for me, I remember feelingsabout words. And it's beautiful,

(57:47):
when you can bring thosetogether and see see from each
other's different things. Butare you trying to look, I'm
trying to find it, but I don't.
It's not even a big deal. But Imean, Einstein has so many
amazing, amazing, amazingquotes. Um, one of the things
that I want to touch on here issomething that you and I had
talked about before that was,there is a really interesting,

(58:11):
fine line. Where Yes, when weget to a point in our life,
where we own our ship, right, weown the pieces, you got the
quote, hey, let's hear it. Okay,it says, Everything is energy.
And that's all there is to itmatch the frequency of the
reality you want. And you cannothelp but get that reality. It
can be no other way. This is notphilosophy. This is physics. I

(58:32):
love it. Why does this quote sayI? That's insane, right? I
believe it's Einstein, theinternet, he taught, he's told
me that on the internet, so itmust be true. The interwebs
says, Oh, my goodness,I didn't mean to cut you off.
That's perfect. I know where Iwas that there is this really
interesting, fine line. And it'ssomething that I'm going through

(58:55):
right now, when we go intopersonal development and self
development.
We get really good with claimingand owning our ship, we get
really good with, you know whatI attracted that because of
this. And there is I feel like asubtle shift that's asking to be
happy happened, where Irecognize this with my kids. I

(59:16):
protected their dad all day longuntil something happened. And it
was like, we're done. We'redone. And now I get to actually
start and their dad is a goodperson. And right now we have a
really good relationship. Andhe's a much better person with
his partner than he was with me.
I feel the same about my I justwant to make sure that that I
that was and and I got to apoint to where, yes, I could

(59:38):
continue protecting, or I couldstart teaching my kids, hey,
this behavior is actually notnormal. And this is the tools
that I would invite you to startusing and learning. And so their
data has been a really huge giftto them with how to recognize
different behavioral patternsand how to navigate it. And at a
very young age, they're learningthese things that I had no idea

(01:00:00):
About and had I known about thatI probably wouldn't have
attracted different aspects inmy life. And even more recently,
I've personally been goingthrough some things of where am
I allowing myself to continue tobe walked on, because I can see
my part in it. Instead of owningmy part, it's a difficult. Yes.

(01:00:20):
And you had spoken to this aboutyour children, because of the
things that you allowed tohappen, you don't have a really
great relationship with a few ofthem now, which is heartbreaking
for me to hear. And these aresome of my best friends, right?
You You always your kids arelike some of your closest
friends. And it's, it is tough.
Yeah. Because they, and Ibelieve that they choose into us

(01:00:44):
as their parents, they choseinto what they were going to,
you know, to some degree, whatlevel of experiences we were all
going to have together, even towhat you're at now. And I feel
like there is a call more toHey,
yes, we can own the things thathappened, it doesn't change what
happened. And I can stillacknowledge, hey, this was

(01:01:08):
really shitty behavior of whatyou did, and I'm not okay with
that. And this is a boundarythat actually will communicate
that this is a boundary andcommunicate these pieces and
take my ownership in my part init, but also the ownership of
what happened. Yeah, becausewhat happened was real.
And I feel like there, this is avery fine line that gets to be
navigated. And this comes to themore and more we know ourselves

(01:01:31):
and become more aligned with whowe are, then we get to know when
we get to open our mouths, andsay, Hey, by the way, these
things that you're being toldare not true. And this is the
truth of the body. And that'ssuch a tough one. Because, you
know, especially being inpersonal development, we, one of
the first things we teach isthat your feelings matter. And

(01:01:53):
the way your your memory, yourtruth is important, right? You
know, I like to talk in terms ofand I do this with a lot of
words, but like big T and littlet so they're big T truths and
little T truths. And we all livein our own little T truths. And
frankly, I don't even know whatany big T truths are, I think
that the more little T's thatalign, the bigger the, the

(01:02:14):
bigger, the big T seems. But youknow, I don't know what Big T
truths would be when we all liveour own realities. But when I
have, you know,when we have beliefs, even if
those beliefs are inaccurate,you know, approaching that in a
way that people feel seen andheard, is still critically
important. You know, I look atmy kids, and they have their

(01:02:37):
beliefs, and I have my beliefsand me
opposing their beliefs isn'tgoing to draw us any closer
together, right.
And so all I can do is work onme and being the best version of
myself that I can be. And one ofthe goals that I have set for
myself is, you know, I've, I'vedone a lot of books in the

(01:02:59):
background for other people, butI'm moving more into the space
of sharing my own voice and myown words, so that, as my
children seek that out, they canthey can find me, yeah, you
know, but we all live in thesespaces. Like, I haven't, I
haven't had any communicationwith my oldest for several
years. And it's a space where,you know, I look at it, and I, I

(01:03:23):
see things that I did, and I seethings that I would do
differently. And, and I can seeplaces where I could have done
it differently, but it's wherewe are and
the more that we can live in aspace where we can set goals and
intentions that don't requiretime travel of changing the
past, the more happy that andmore joy that we can find.

(01:03:46):
But I'll tell you, like, thegrief of not having my son in my
life, isthe closest I can liken it to is
if I had a son go off to war.
And he didn't come home, butthey never found his body. So
it's a space of Do you grievethat loss? Do you do you bury

(01:04:09):
that relationship? Or do youcontinue to hold out hope that
it might someday come back and Iand I'm in no way trying to
imply that it's the same aslosing a son to death.
But there is a good analogy,elements of parents that are in
that situation it is what do youdo? Yeah. And

(01:04:30):
for me, I don't even know if myson is married. My ex won't tell
me anything about his life.
I could be a grandfather. Idon't know. I just don't know
any of those things right?
But being able to settle in andbe at peace with what is and you
know, I love howBrendon Burchard uses the phrase
strive satisfied. And I'vealways loved that phrase because

(01:04:53):
that that shows the ability toto be okay with what
Is but to still have hope anddreams and desire to to create
something different rather thanjust so it's that space between
just floating with the world or,you know, we talked about on the
one end you're like wanting tomake everything happen your way.

(01:05:15):
And on the other end, you'relike, I'm at peace with
everything that is and and Idon't feel comfortable in either
of those spaces, right? Well, Ithink that we're we never
I think we never well becausethe truth is the reality is if
we ever get to I used to alwaysthink I would, especially after
leaving religion, that I wouldgo to my mountaintop, I would be

(01:05:36):
evolved. And I would like Iwould figure out life secrets,
and I would sit on the mountaintop and I'd be peaceful. And for
me what I found it actually Iclimbed that mountain top and
then they're like, oh, shit,there's another mountain top.
And it's been a much harderjourney and a lot of ways
because this is that personaldevelopment piece, right? That
has come since me leavingreligion. But I believe like

(01:05:58):
water, you know, when water goesstagnant, has no flow, it's
gross water, you don't want todrink out of that you don't want
to touch that you don't evenwant to be near it. Because the
nastiness that's coming off ofthat we are always meant to be
evolving and growing. So I don'tyou know, we can have
satisfaction with where we're atin our lives. But then something
will come in that will be like,Oh, well, let's go look at this,

(01:06:19):
or let's go, why don't we go tryand create this thing. Because
when life gets to, we get tohave curiosity and play in life.
And we get to have more, morefun. And at the end of the day,
I do believe that it would benice if we can start all
shifting into this what gets tobe created? Yeah, you know, and,
and I think it was Buddha that afriend of mine was telling me

(01:06:41):
about how Buddha, there's aphilosophy that when we can look
at everything as curiosity, thenthere is a lot more lightness
and more fun of oh, this isinteresting that this is
happening. That's, you know, howcan I be curious about this? And
how can I ask the question, soit is not so holy shit. Why is

(01:07:01):
this happening to me? What did Ido wrong? What how is God
punishing me?
What did I do to deserve this?
Yeah. Which we all do. We all doto a certain extent. And I think
that the more that we can moveinto a space of realizing like
it's a very childlike belief,and children believe that
everything that's happeningaround them is because of them.

(01:07:23):
Right? Even, you know, children,young children that go through
divorce, see the divorces istheir fault, often, right? I had
my, my youngest who I think hewas nine or 10 at the time, like
so this was, Well, maybe he was11. But this is, you know, two
or three years ago, he came inand he sat on the bed. And he

(01:07:44):
said, Dad,everything changes, nothing
stays. And I said, yeah, yeah,that's true. And he's like, so
what's the point? He's like,he's like, what's the point? If
nothing lasts, and we happen tobe we happen to have a box of
Oreos, or in container Oreos onthe bed. And, and,

(01:08:08):
you know, I just in kind of amoment of wisdom, like I gave
him one of the Oreos, and Isaid, Do you want this? And he
said, Yeah, and, and I said,Well, once you eat it, it's
gone. And he's like, that'strue. And I said, but did you
enjoy it while you were eatingit? And he said, I did. And I
said, Well, that's that's thepoint. So

(01:08:30):
did you enjoy eating the Oreo?
And we still to that this day,use that analogy. He'll be like,
he's like, I enjoyed that Oreowhile it lasted. So I love that
analogy. That's a beautiful, andwhat a beautiful teaching point
with your son to have.
So our time is probably should.
I know. And I'd love to havehere's part two, we could we

(01:08:54):
could record a few episodestogether. But tell me a little
bit about what or tell ourlisteners a little bit about
what you do. Because I thinkit's quite fascinating. Yeah.
Okay. So I, I love to helppeople tell their stories. And
the company that I have is bookJedi. And I do retreats. To help
people tell their stories. Iwork with a lot of celebrities

(01:09:16):
and professional athletes andexecutives, to help them write
their stories. But even morethan putting stories into books.
To me, what I love to do is tohelp people see the stories in
their lives, and recreate thestories in their lives to be
able to build a life by design.
I believe that that we have thepower within us to live whatever

(01:09:39):
life we want to live. And ourlives are defined by the stories
that we tell ourselves and bythe stories that we tell others
and helping helping people findthe story of themselves that
resonates with themselves iswhat I'm all about. I'm a big
believer that, you know, we'reall in sales. We're always
constantly selling and thisYou know, you can realize you're

(01:10:00):
in sales, the sooner you canshift your life to be the life
that you want it to be.
True, true. But you also and youalso offer retreats you? Yeah, I
do retreats, we call them bookJedi masterminds, we go to
unique locations where, again,curiosity, creativity, all those
things help people get into flowhelp them get into those

(01:10:21):
mindset. So I work a lot with,you know, one of one of my good
friends is Steven Kotler. AndI've helped him so much on some
of his recent books around flowand peak performance. And
we really take those conceptsinto writing as well.
You know, when, when you are ina state of creativity and

(01:10:43):
curiosity and things those thoseenergies can flow in when, when
we take you and put you in?
Spaces like Well, we went toCosta Rica, and we would sit
there and we would say, Okay,what is the challenge that
you're working on? What is thestory that you're telling? Okay,
now, now hold that in your mindand we're gonna go whitewater
rafting. And or we're gonna goout and we're going to teach
everybody to do surfing and, andgo to

(01:11:07):
whoops, sorry. I put this onher anyway, I put it on, put it
on, do not disturb. Do notdisturb me. I had to create a
personal note on my phone.
That's like nobody can callthrough because even on Do Not
Disturb people who are on yourfavorites, or Ken will still

(01:11:27):
come through. Yeah. So anyway,so you go whitewater rafting,
and then we come back. And thenwe sit down, we say, Okay, what
came to you, because our brainsare designed to connect dots.
And often why we say Hindsightis 2020 is because our brains
can connect the dots of ourlives and create this illusion
of consistency. And we are thesame as who we were. But as you

(01:11:49):
mentioned, you know, your 20year old self would be like, Who
is this? Right? And wecontinually, like, I believe in
multiple lifetimes, as well. ButI also believe that within this
lifetime, we've all livedmultiple lifetimes, could write
a story about different parts inyour life where you're like, I
don't even know who that personis anymore. But I know that was,

(01:12:09):
that was me at the time. Youknow, I had Lyme disease, when I
was 20. And it it almost killedme like they they sent me home
from New York with the intentionof me dying with my family. And,
you know, I look back on that,and I'm like, I don't even like,
that's hard. Even that's hard,even put that person into who I
am. And, you know, even evenbeing married for 25 or 20 plus

(01:12:33):
years with in a relationship for25, my 13 year old who was the
same one that asked about theOreos, he'll be like, Okay, tell
me some of your favoritememories from this time. And
I'll be like, Wow, I would haveto sit down and pull those up.
Because, right? It's not becausethey weren't meaningful, but
it's a different life now. Andit's a different space. And

(01:12:55):
you know, Brooke always usesthis phrase of beauty and
destruction. And what that meansis that life is constantly
changing. And we're always goingto be losing things when we're
gaining things. And that can behard. I actually hate the
phrase.
Perfect, but the more I can leaninto it, the better the better

(01:13:16):
it is. But anyway, I love that.
I don't remember where I wasrambling on that one, just with
how our minds do they can puttogether the pieces. Oh, yeah,
yeah, so we and so. So these,these, these experiences are
meant to help you pull togetherthe pieces of your life that
createthe story that that helps you
that serves you and one of myfavorite questions is, is this

(01:13:39):
belief serving you? So is ittrue? Is it really true? And is
it serving you? Yeah. And, youknow, you know, I talk about
Brooke a lot. But she is she isfantastic at this, she has taken
some incredibly difficultchallenges through her life
and turn them to a space ofhelping others. And, you know,

(01:14:03):
I, I've done this with mymarriage as well, I've been able
to help other people moving outof relationships, much better
navigate the relationship, notbecause I'm so good at it, but
because I can I have tools nowthat I didn't have, and I can
see things that I did that thatbroke. For me, I think one of
the biggest things we do as asparents and as friends, is we

(01:14:27):
often try and tell people, theway we did something that worked
so that they can do it the sameway, when what we really should
be doing is showing them toolsthat they can use to figure out
the way that works for them. Andfor me as a parent, I really try
and give that to my kids of Idon't want to determine the life

(01:14:47):
they want to live. I want themto be able to determine the life
they want to live. And what Iwant to do is be able to provide
tools that help them get theremore easily. So when you talk
about refiners fires, that's oneof my favorite cons.
That's right. The coolestpeople, you know, are the people
that have been through some ofthe toughest crap, right? But I
don't want to have to go throughtough crap to be cool. So So can

(01:15:12):
I narrow? I have, right? But canI can I Is there a way that we
can narrow the time that youhave to spend on that, and I sat
there, I love the analogy of theone I share with people. And I
agree with you, I, the analogy Ishare with people is you can go
to the gym every day, and youcan just work out, and you'll
eventually get into shape,right. But if you have a
trainer, and you have someonethat can say, this is the way

(01:15:33):
that you can work through this,then you can get to the space,
you want to be in much quicker.
And I believe that that canhappen with trauma and
everything else. You know, I'mhelping a friend, we're writing
a book together. And one of thetopics that we're talking about
the other day was trauma. Andyou know, this is a really
difficult space to be in. So Idon't know that we can get into
it here. But, but in essence,you know, everything that we are

(01:15:56):
living now.
You know, if if you're stillfeeling and trauma about
something that happened 20 yearsago, that that is the trauma is
not happening to you. Right now.
It happened then. And I'm notdownplaying trauma at all trauma
is very real. And we feel it andour feelings are real.

(01:16:21):
But there, I do believe thereare ways that we can approach it
differently than we havetraditionally. And different
ways that we can look at it andtake back are power. Yeah. And I
think that's a huge thing thatthat is worth, it's totally
absurd on its own. I agree. AndI think to what you're speaking

(01:16:41):
to is oftentimeswhen when we don't have the
tools, then we are just goingthrough the motions. And a lot
of time the unconscious mind isrunning the show and the
unconscious mind has all theprograms that were created from
the abuse from the traumathrough and they were often
created when we're like fiveyears old. Well, it is from zero
to what nine is when you know,and I, I because I'm an NLP

(01:17:01):
practitioner, I love the mind.
And it is fascinating. And, and,yes, this is a whole other
podcast. And one thing thatkeeps popping up that I would
like to make sure that I offerhere because I know a lot of
people are in relationshipstuff. And we talked about
relationships here.
When our hearts and our headsare not aligned, which often

(01:17:23):
they are not.
It feels very chaotic and veryconfusing, especially in
relationships. But one thingthat I as as when you go through
different relationships, one ofthe things that I I'll ask my
clients, and I'll I forgot aboutthis question, and I just came
back up, I'm like, do you feellike you're done.

(01:17:47):
So if anybody is in arelationship right now, where
they're feeling really confused,because there's a lot of
relationships that are ending, Iwould invite you to ask the
question, do you feel like thisreally, you are done with this
relationship? Because usuallyyou will right now. And the
minute that I asked thatquestion, you just answered it,
yes or no? And whatever thatanswer was, is your answer.
Instead of getting into thehead? It's your heart that's
responding. You either know ifyou're finished with this

(01:18:09):
relationship if it feelscomplete, or if not. And if it
was a no, then you get to gonavigate what the next chapter
looks like. And if it's a yes,you get to navigate that part.
But often it does come down tothat simple question. Does this
relationship feel complete? Isit done?
And in my experience, we allknow that the answer that
question, we just get into ourheads as far as all the other

(01:18:33):
little things, and the How am Igoing to and how is this?
Whatever it is, but when you canget really simple. And
when we leave religion, trustingour intuition is tricky. And one
of the easiest indicators, bestindicators that I like to offer
is your intuition is calm. It'susually quiet. But it's calm,

(01:18:54):
your mind chatter, the all theother things is chaotic. Its
world windy. And that is notyour intuition that is not that
God, Self that's communicatingwith you. It is the calmness
where the answers lie. I lovethat. I think for me
transitioning out of religion,one of the most difficult pieces
was was the idea of letting goof someone else already seen

(01:19:17):
what was going to happen havingan answer for me if I just
listened, right, or this idea ofthe Holy Ghost because we
actually are taught andconditioned. And I write about
it in my book, but we weretaught and conditioned that and
we don't realize is the HolyGhost is actually our intuition.
The Holy Ghost is the onewhispering and giving me
promptings. And actually, no,that was you. You just were
taught that this was the HolyGhost that was external that you

(01:19:40):
can only have through baptism.
And if you did anything that wasbad, like swearing, you know,
then that holy ghost would goout of the room. You said but oh
my gosh, now the Holy Ghost isleaving I need to start singing
a church him, bring it in, bringit in. And it's like, no, this
is again, just part of thatconditioning in that programming
that no, this isbeen with you the entire time.
Anyway, again, going off on alittle tangent Holy crap.

(01:20:07):
If people wanted to find youchip how, how would they find
you? Yeah, the best way to findme is, you know, you can go to
book jedi.com or chiphopper.com. And I'm also on a
number of social media platformsas Chip hopper. So awesome. I
will make sure I put it in theshow notes. As we are wrapping

(01:20:27):
this container up. Is thereanything else you'd like to
offer to the space to those thatare listening? Well, I just want
to say, Amanda, you are amazing.
Andour circles have floated very
close for many, many years. Andit's crazy that we haven't sat
down more, but I absolutelyintend to

(01:20:50):
have more interaction with you.
Becauseyou already felt like a best
friend. And I love yourinsights. And I'm excited about
everything you're doing. Well,thank you and feeling is mutual.
So it'll be fun to continueconversations outside of this.
I'm looking forward to that.
Well, thank you anything else?
No, just love yourselves. Bekind be kind to be kind of what

(01:21:15):
you've been through kind of whatyou're going through.
kindness and love and acceptanceare?
Let's just, yeah, we, we allhave stuff behind the curtain.
Everybody, like I haven't workedever worked with the client that
it hasn't been just a list of,you know, things that they could

(01:21:38):
have done differently might havewanted to do differently.
But But except, you know thatwhere you are like, I love when
people ask the question of whatwould you go back and tell your
20 year old self. And I say Iwouldn't tell them anything.
Because if I did, I wouldn't bewho I am today. And you are who

(01:22:00):
you are. Because of everythingthat's happened to you the good
and the bad. I wouldn't takeaway a lot of the trauma that
Brooke has been through becauseit's made her who she is. And
that person is beautiful. Andyou are beautiful. And you
listener like Amanda is alsobeautiful. We all knew who
you're talking to. So anyway,that's it. Well, thank you.

(01:22:24):
Thank you. Thank you. And thanksfor taking the time to two hours
later. You're getting so much Iappreciate you. So thank you.
That was a beautifulconversation that I got to have
a chip and the questions and thedynamics that were brought up.
That really, my hope is thatthere are pieces within this

(01:22:45):
that have really created somequestions and some inquiry for
you to sit with. So like chipmentioned, or like I mentioned,
Chip shared his ways that youcan get in touch with him that
you can follow him and I willshare his information down
below. But make sure and grab mybook, leave me a review. You
know, I love to support. I loveit when people message and say,

(01:23:10):
you know how these podcastsinterviews have assisted you It
really means a lot. I don't makemoney off this podcast. That's
why I pitch some of the otherthings that I do
that where I do make money. ButI just appreciate you guys and I
appreciate the opportunity to dothis to spend this time with you
with the guests that I have andto be sharing our voices. And

(01:23:31):
this just really assist us alland knowing that we're not
alone. And I know I say that allthe time because it is really
important and we get to be seenand heard. So wherever you are
today know that you are notalone. And that I see you I hear
you and I am sending you all somuch love

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