November 9, 2022 • 54 mins
Liz comes from a unique background being almost royalty within the polygamist community. Her grandfather was Rulon Allred and he was the prophet of the Apostolic United Brethren (or the AUB) until he was murdered in 1977 by a rivalry group. Later in 2014 until just this year, her father was the prophet of the AUB.
Growing up polygamist she loved it but had experiences to where she was shunned by the neighbors when they would find out that she was part of a polygamist church. The AUB was a break off from the original teachings of the Mormon church and believed that they were keeping the celestial, higher law alive by living polygamy.
If you have watched sister wives, with Christine Brown, they are a part of the AUB and Christine is a relative of Liz's.
At 16 years old, Liz chose to join the mainstream LDS church. She had to wait until she was 18 years old in order to fully join because she came from polygamy. The AUB teachings were so similar to the mainstream Mormon church that often she would have a hard time remembering which was from what religion.
She shares that she was quite happy with both religion and she was following her internal compass. She practiced mainstream Mormonism for years until her sister shared a memory that she had at young age of very inappropriate sexual acts with the leaders of the AUB. With this revelation Liz was forced to sit with the linage of what her sister had experienced and all the men that took advantage of their power. The string that pulled the sweater for her was when her dad became the prophet of the AUB. She saw that there was a line from hr dad to her grandfather, to Brigham Young to Joseph Smith and see there was an abuse of their power.
This is a truly powerful episode and one that you will want to listen to.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:02):
Welcome to my podcast leaving religion a guide. I am
excited to share with you thisnext guest as diving into a
little bit more of the the sectsare the groups that broke off
from the original belief systemaround Mormonism, there was a
few things I wasn't aware of. Soit's really interesting to have
this conversation with my nextguest. But before we dive in, I
(00:26):
want to invite you if you'refeeling like you're in a place
in your life to where you'relooking for more guidance, for
more ways of how to tap intoyour gifts, your abilities with
how to lean more into and learnmore of what your genius is, and
how to get to where you'rewanting to go, I'm going to
invite you to step in and joinmy mastermind group that's
(00:47):
starting November 27. And thisis a life elevated mastermind,
and we'll be the group that'scoming together is quite
powerful. So I'm really, reallyexcited. And I priced this
group, it's really, reallyinexpensive, because it feels
like there's so many that knowthey have these gifts, they know
how they have these abilities.
They know they want to to leaninto their souls purpose, but
(01:08):
they're not quite sure how. Sothis group is really, really
going to get you closer to whereyou're wanting to go and offer
tools and different guestspeakers to help give insight.
And it's just it's going to bepowerful. So head to my website,
Amanda loveland.com, forwardslash elevated mastermind, to go
get more information and to jointhis group today. Again, this
(01:31):
starts November 27. And I cannotwait to see you there. So
without further ado, let's diveinto my next interview that I
had with Liz. Well, I am soexcited to be sitting down with
you today, Liz and I am excitedto we had a mutual friend that
had a friend I mean, she'sfamily to you, but a good friend
of mine that said you need tointerview Liz. And so I know a
(01:54):
little bit of your story, but Idon't know much. But I know it's
a really unique experience thatyou've gone through. And so I'm
really excited to hear you justhear everything you've gone
through. So thank you forjoining me and thanks for saying
yes. Yeah,I'm excited to be here. Thanks
for the opportunity.
Yeah, me too. So I don't evenknow quite where to dive into
(02:14):
because I don't know what yourbut what did you I know you come
from polygamy. Were you borninto polygamy? Yeah. So
to put it very generalized, Icome from a kind of, if you want
to put it loosely, polygamyroyalty. So my grandfather was
(02:35):
ruling all red and he was theprophet of his specific Church,
the apostolic United Brethrenfrom about the mid 1950s until
he was murdered by a rivalpolygamous group, the law barons
in 1977. And so I, I was borninto that group and later and
(03:00):
from 2014, until my dad justpassed away in October, he was
the leader or the Prophet of thea UB. So I it kind of comes from
both sides. My mom's maiden nameis all red, so ruling all red
and then I grew up being aThompson. So I grew up in
(03:20):
polygamy. That's all I knew as achild, and I loved it. I loved
having tons of siblings, I lovedhaving multiple Moms. My mom and
dad were really good at makingit look amazing. So I just had,
it's the reality I lived in itwas the water that I swam in.
(03:42):
And so I thought it was greatand wonderful. And we were
taught that it's very much intandem with the mainstream LDS
church. This a up there theirjob, their main goal, at least
while I was growing up was tokeep polygamy alive until Christ
comes again. And then their jobsare to teach the mainstream LDS
(04:04):
church how to live polygamyagain. So we were kind of
supposed to be waiting in thewings until Christ comes again.
And then because we were keepingthe celestial law, the the
higher law alive, doing thatthrough living polygamy, then we
(04:26):
would be able to teach that tothe mainstream LDS. So I grew up
going to public schools. I thinka lot of people have
misconceptions of polygamy,especially from the media, if
they don't really dive into it.
They assume the ones that kindof get the most attention is
Warren Jeffs in the F LDS. Andwe were separate from them since
the 1950s. We really have notbeen too associated with them.
(04:48):
So I grew up going to publicschool. wearing regular clothes,
we didn't have to dress anythingweird. Our hair was normal. We
very much blended into society.
And that's a lot how the AU B isnow, if anyone has ever worked
sister wives with Kody Brown,they come from our group and I
(05:10):
am related to Christine Brown,the one that had just left him
not too long ago, at least inthis past season. I don't watch
a lot of it because it's verysimilar to how I grew up, it's
not really my cup of tea towatch. But that is that is the
religion that I grew up in. Andmy older siblings know Cody
(05:30):
brown and the wives very well.
They had grown up with themCody's been to our house. So I
was quite happy in my childhoodfor a very long time. And when I
was 16, I had an older sisterwho decided to join the
mainstream LDS church. And Ikind of followed her through
that process. And the thing thatwas so interesting about it is,
(05:54):
though, I wanted to join at 16,I had to wait until I was 18.
Because when you're coming froma polygamous background to go
into the mainstream LDS churchis actually takes a long time.
It's a long process and you haveto go through a lot of steps,
one of them being unique withone of the 12 apostles. So it
was kind of a fight to to beable to join the mainstream LDS
(06:18):
church, but I didn't have toescape. There was no huge drama.
My dad was disappointed. My momwas sad, but there was that was
about it. There wasn't any huge.
I didn't get kicked out of thehouse, I didn't lose my family,
they were still very loving. Sothat's kind of where it came
(06:39):
from. It's so similar to themainstream LDS church that when
I first joined mainstream LDS, Iwould I would sometimes have to
check with people like myfriends or my spouse, and ask
them is, is this teaching frommainstream or is this something
I'm remembering from likepolygamy background and they
(07:02):
would kind of have to walk methrough it and that's fine. I
was all in the mainstream LDSchurch for a very long time. I
was baptized at 18 and I think Ileft in my mid 30s. Stream LDS.
So I was and I was quite happyin the mainstream LDS church to
because I was really good atjust listening and obeying and
(07:22):
following I really trusted theleaders, I really trusted the
information I was getting,because I wouldn't understand
why anyone would be deceitful ornot truthful. So I was quite
happy in both. I didn't leavebecause I was just I was I was
disenchanted with either ofthem. I just liked because it
(07:44):
felt like I was following myinner compass. Mm hmm. That's
beautiful. I'm curious. How canyou say mainstream LDS, um,
if you know a lot aboutMormonism, there is so many
branches of Mormonism and themainstream LDS church that's in
Utah that people call Latter DaySaints, Church of Jesus Christ
(08:06):
of Latter Day Saints. They havereally tried to distance
themselves from the many breakoffs and branches that have come
from Joseph Smith's, quote,unquote, Restoration of the
gospel. One of them being theChurch of Christ, that's back in
Missouri. There's so many breakoffs of Mormonism, that
(08:29):
oftentimes when I am fascinatingbetween all the different
branches of Mormonism, I have tobe more specific on who we're
dealing with. Because mainstreamis kind of came from the Brigham
Young, got rid of polygamy gavethe blacks the priesthood in the
1978 77 era. They did all thesethings that and it has the
(08:55):
largest following, but that isnot. That's not all Mormonism
is, I grew up Mormon. Mypolygamous background is Mormon.
F LDS, you could call it Mormon.
There's so many branches, somany break offs that when I'm
when I'm so fascinated inbetween all of these different
Mormon worlds, I have to makesure I differentiate between
Yeah.
(09:17):
That's interesting. You're thefirst guest that I've had that
that says that phrase often, andI've really never heard that. So
that's why I was curious why,but that makes sense. So did you
in your religion growing up withpolygamy, then did you study the
Book of Mormon or did you have adifferent script? You did? Yeah.
So the, the A, UB the polygamistbackground really, is similar to
(09:42):
and draws from early Mormonism.
So like the 1800s 1844 if youwant to kind of put like a stamp
on it, I would say if you tookMormons from the 1890s and And
that's really the Mormons you'redealing with are the Mormons
that I grew up with. So you'redealing with the Doctrine and
(10:04):
Covenants Pearl of Great PriceBook of Mormon. The Bible, the
King James version, the oldgarments that go down to your
ankles and wrists that have theties in the front. You're really
if you were to step back intime, the the mainstream LDS
church has changed so much overtime. And many times they would
(10:26):
prefer to not recognize that theto pretend like it's always been
that way. But so many thingshave changed over time, Temple,
endowments, temple covenants,all of these different things
have changed so drastically, andthey really try to pretend like
they haven't, that it's this.
(10:48):
God is the same yesterday, todayand forever, when realistically,
their base doctrines havechanged. And in the A, B and the
F LDS, though they have takensome things to extremes. They,
they definitely have held on tothe older beliefs, the older
(11:08):
Mormons. So it's very muchexactly the same. I mean, it was
hard because as a child,mainstream LDS people are
especially there was a huge pushin the 1980s 1970s 1980s, they
were losing some of theirmembers to the polygamist
(11:29):
groups, because if you're doingany kind of dive into Mormon
history, you find that JosephSmith was claiming that polygamy
was the everlasting covenantthat that was how you made it to
the celestial kingdom, which isthe highest kingdom and the
Mormon Heaven is having threewives or more. So if you truly
believe and that is yourtestimony, that you want to make
(11:52):
it to the celestial kingdom, andyou want to find the base, the
doctrine, the earliest doctrinethat there was, you can easily
get caught into polygamy. There,we had mainstream LDS people
come off into our group, becauseit was so similar to mainstream
LDS, and yet held on to some ofthose base early doctrines that
(12:16):
have not been changed over time.
And that is different in so manyways. But one of the really
damaging things is, blacks notbeing able to hold the
priesthood. So in these many,many polygamist groups, you're
not going to find anyone ofAfrican American descent or or
black or however you want todefine it because they broke off
(12:36):
before the mainstream LDS churchgave the blacks or whoever you
want to say the priesthood. Soit's very, very old school. And
so it's, we very much grew upMormon and at the same time, we
were ostracized my familyspecifically, but most
(12:58):
polygamous children areostracized and treated
differently and not allowed toplay with the LDS kids. There
was a real fear that was taughtfrom the pulpit to stay away
from polygamist families. Thatis actually one of the reasons
why in the temple recommendinterview they asked if you have
(13:19):
been affiliating with anyoutside groups, or it is about
polygamous. They really lost alot of people to polygamy. I
actually have a reallyinteresting story. So I grew up
on the same street my wholelife. My mom lived there for 50
years. She raised all of herkids there. And so everyone on
(13:39):
the street knew that we werepolygamist kids and they were
not allowed to play with us. Wewould did go to public school,
but I didn't have any LDSfriends that lived on the same
street with me because theyweren't allowed to play with us.
And a new family moved in and itwas a family of girls. It was
like six girls, and they didn'tknow that we were polygamous yet
(14:02):
and it was so exciting. So weplayed with them all summer, my
sister and I did. And by the endof the summer, they kind of
weren't around anymore. So Iwalked over to their house and
asked if my friend Faline couldplay and her mom came outside
and said we're not allowing thekids to play with you anymore.
You come you guys arepolygamists, and that's just not
(14:23):
okay. And so don't come back.
And that was the theme of ourchildhood. We had rocks thrown
at us. We got yelled at thatfamily, that specific family.
The dad's name was Joseph Smith.
And he Yeah, it was sointeresting. Yeah, he became the
(14:44):
stake president. When my momeventually divorced my dad and
decided to mean to join themainstream LDS church. He became
the stake president in that samearea, and I was able to talk to
him about See what had happenedas a child when I was a child?
And I said, you know, youwouldn't. He asked my mom a
(15:05):
question. He said, I hope youenjoyed living in our
neighborhood. And she said,Well, I, I've never minded it.
It's been fine for me. But mykids have had a hard time. And
he goes, Oh, that's, well,that's too bad. Why? And that's
when I jumped in. And I said,Well, it was actually your kids
that weren't very nice to us.
(15:27):
And you wouldn't let them playwith us because we were
polygamist. And he goes, Yeah,that checks out. That makes
sense. And I definitely wouldn'tlet my kids play with a
polygamist kids. So that makessense. He had no regrets. And
really, that was a themethroughout my childhood is if
people found out about mychildhood, and where it came
(15:48):
from. There were lots of thingsthat could happen. One of them
being I would lose a friend, butthe other one being that I could
lose my family. There was raidsin the 1950s to put in jail
polygamous men, my grandpa ruleand actually got put in jail. So
there was a real fear that waspassed down to us that we needed
to keep it secret. And along theMormonism theme, sacred is
(16:13):
secret. So then it's like livingpolygamy. We're living the
higher law. It's sacred. It'ssecret. We don't tell people so
it's this dichotomy where welived in the world but not of
the world, just like times 10,because they're taught that in
the mainstream LDS church, yeah.
But it's even more exponentialgrowing up the way I grew up.
(16:34):
Wow, did you grew up in Utah?
I did. So I grew up in WestJordan. UB has, they're
everywhere. When I first marriedmy husband, I used to joke with
him because I would see my auntsand my cousins and people that I
grew up with all at the movietheater at the grocery store.
And I'd be like, that's from theARB. That's from two and they
(16:57):
just look normal. So they liveamongst us in Utah that you you
think you would recognize apolygamist but you don't. I have
brothers that are doctors anddentists. So they're, they're
all over I grew up in WestJordan, they're their main
churches in Bluffdale. Butthere's kind of a large group in
Eagle Mountain, in Santa Quinn.
There's Montana, Mexico,Wyoming. There's there's places
(17:23):
all over it that have the samebeliefs. But that's just
specifically apostolic, UnitedBrethren, we're not touching
into any of the independentpolygamists that don't really
have a huge following. We're nottalking about the Church of
Christ, we're not talking aboutI mean, there's so many
different branches, and sectsthat people don't realize that
it's really saturated, andthey're just unaware.
(17:47):
Hmm. Really interesting. And I,it is, it is fascinating to kind
of dive into these pieces, whereI don't I mean, I grew up in
Utah, and I knew about thepolygamous, but we never really
talked about it, at least not inthe area that I grew up in,
because it wasn't really in ourfaces, I guess. And, but it was
always kind of that, oh, theyhave the old. You know, that's
(18:11):
that's not how we practice.
That's the old mentality. That'snot whatever, right. And then,
of course, when you have thelaws that come in that say, you
can't have more than one wife,and then now it's the actual
you're committing a, you know,there, you can be put in jail
for this. It's interesting, theunwinding of it, and then at the
core of it, the fact that youwere shunned as a child like
(18:32):
that, that makes me sad, then Iwonder if I would have behaved
that way. If I was the same of,you know, her, and I don't know,
I may have when I, when you'rein a religion, you're so narrow,
like that narrow mindedness isso focused on the path of
eternal salvation. And anythingthat comes into it is there is
so much fear, which is superironic, because that's not
(18:55):
unconditional love. That's nothow Christ was. That's not you
know, how how God is. So it is,it is super interesting. I'm
curious with the doctrine,because there is such a deep
seated belief in the patriarchyand you know, having the
priesthood if that if they hadthe same beliefs as Mormons with
the priesthood, and that's whymen were the ones that had
(19:18):
multiple wives, and what thementality was there to that that
was the everlasting, what didyou call the everlasting
covenant to actually get intothe celestial kingdom? Can you
share a little bit of what yourknowledge is with that?
Yeah, it's definitelypatriarchy. And it really has to
do with the temple covenants.
And I mean, it's section 132. Ithink oftentimes, when
(19:42):
mainstream LDS people learnabout section 132 They like to
go well, it's about templecovenants. It's about that's how
you have your celestialmarriage. That's an it's it's
part of it, but but really 132had to do with Joseph Smith
justifying taking on more thanone wife. And that that is
(20:06):
what's going to bring him intothe celestial kingdom. I mean,
if you really dive into theearly history, historical
documents, historicalinformation about early church,
the main if you're getting allof your information from
mainstream LDS, they arecovering those things up because
it's, it's an embarrassment. Andthey want to say that that was
(20:32):
just a small section. I mean,how many? If you think back, did
you even know that Joseph Smithhad multiple wives until
probably the last 10 years? LikeI always knew that? Yeah, but it
was something that wasn't reallytalked about.
No, it wasn't. And when I gotmarried, my husband didn't know
that they're not teaching thatin Sunday school and mainstream
(20:54):
LDS. But it, it follows rightalong the lines of patriarchy
and the priesthood, and that themore wives you have, the higher
and, and they're in, in theirframe, the woman is helping the
man get to the celestialkingdom, and they have to do it
(21:15):
together. But really, it's theman that holds all the power. I
mean, they teach that priesthoodpower binds what is in heaven
here on earth, or what's here onEarth in heaven. So you really
have the power of God, here onEarth, that's what the
priesthood power is. So ifthey're sealing you with the
priesthood power here, thenthat's going to transfer up into
(21:37):
heaven and you're being sealedup in heaven. If you don't have
a priesthood power, then you canget married here. But that
doesn't mean you're going to bemarried in the heavens, that's
kind of the one of the sellingpoints of the LDS Church is the
that if if you get married herein our church, then you'll be
guaranteed to be married andheaven, you get to your family
(21:57):
forever. So, but that comesthrough the male line that comes
through the patriarchy. Andwomen are especially now not
able to do that, and not reallyhaving those those privileges
those priesthood powers, andit's very much delve into
patriarchy when I was veryyoung. I did ask my mom and dad,
(22:19):
I mean, I remember sitting atthe kitchen table and asking,
well, if, if Dad can have lotsof wives and I can have lots of
husbands, right. And that wasobviously very shut down very
quickly. Because it only goesone way paid. priesthood only
goes one way. And you could say,could come from like the culture
of the 1800s. I think thatdefinitely put people in, in why
(22:47):
it turned out the way it did. Imean, women for so long, have
been suppressed and takenadvantage of and really been
identified as less than a fullhuman like, yes, you're human,
but not like you. You reallycan't have all the roles and
responsibilities. I'll do thatfor you. You're here to help me.
(23:07):
Yeah, it will. Yeah. And it'slike, it's a big burden. But
somebody's got to do it. Well,and I can't be used so so I'll
make sure I do it. I mean, Ithink I think it absolutely has
to do with patriarchy, andpriesthood. And that's just was
definitely more well defined.
When Brigham Young took whoeverwould follow into a territory
(23:29):
that didn't have a lot of whitesettlers. Of course, it was
inhabited, but it didn't have alot of white settlers. So he
kind of got to curate the rulesand the context and how people
worked and functioned. So thatworked out really well for him
and for the LDS church to havekind of no one else around to
(23:53):
make the rules or have anypushback. So I think that's my
thoughts on patriarchy. I thinkit's been around for so long,
that Mormon really fed into itand really gleaned from it.
I would agree. I'm just like,I'm on the tail end of a cold so
you can see I keep clearing mythroat I apologize. It's like
still just the last little endof this brutal cold that is
(24:16):
going around that everybody'shad. Yeah, no problem. I there I
find this so fascinating, right,just this the way that that you
can take truth. You know,whatever the filters were, that
truth came through some man thathad all this revelation that
that then has gotten filteredthrough however many outs that
(24:37):
have come in as prophets andseers and regulators and you
know, just created all thesedifferent sects and cultures and
and it's just it is really it's,it's quite fascinating. So I'm
curious as you were growing upwithin the a UB what made you
want to go be in the mainstreamMormonism?
(24:59):
That's a Really good question.
It's kind of even even now, assomeone who's really taken a lot
of time to think about it,because leaving your religion is
very jarring and can be veryhard. And I know that I spent a
lot of time thinking about it,it was a very conscious
decision. And when I was inmainstream LDS, so from ages 18
(25:24):
on until a few years ago, Iwould I would describe it as I
was already questioning it alittle bit. So I had been
sitting in a Sunday meeting inmy polygamous church, and my
uncle was the prophet at thetime. And he said over the
pulpit, what makes our break offof the church, the correct break
(25:47):
off, and I remember kind of likestopping for a minute, because
of course, I was a goodpolygamous child play kid. And I
was writing down everything yousaid, because this was the
leader speaking, the prophetspeaking. And I remember
stopping my pencil and beinglike, wait a minute, what you
just call this a break off. Solike, we're not the one true
church like we're a break off.
(26:09):
And there's multiple break offs.
And that was a thought stop forme. Yeah, that's really what
made me go, Wait a minute, youjust, I thought we were like,
the one true church, like Ithought we had the truth, like I
had been taught that I was notonly Mormon, I was like a better
Mormon than like other Mormons,because we were living this
great way. So I wrote it down.
(26:33):
And then my sister who haddecided to already join the
church, she found it and askedme about it. She said, Hey, I
saw that you wrote down herethat you don't know if this is,
you're confused about it being abreak off. And I just want to
share my testimony to you that Iknow that this The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter DaySaints is the true Church and
that all these I mean, she, shebore her testimony to me. And I
(26:58):
described it if I could put itin the context of when I was in
mainstream LDS as like a lightswitch flipping on. And all of a
sudden, I could see the room.
And I could see all of thispotential, I could see all these
things that weren't therebefore. Now, looking back on it,
I think it gave me a sense ofcommunity, a sense of, I don't
(27:21):
like secrecy. I don't likeshame. I think it's just
something from like the core ofwho I am. And knowing that if I
joined the mainstream LDSchurch, I no longer had to live
in secrecy. I didn't have tohide who I was, I wouldn't be
accepted. In the mainstreamcommunity, I would be accepted
(27:42):
out in the world. And mychildren wouldn't have to go
through my potential childrenwouldn't have to go through the
authorization, thedemoralization, the
embarrassment, what I wentthrough, it was like a way to
finally be out and open and andhave no secrecy. And that's kind
(28:03):
of why I think I drew to themainstream LDS church, and it
was hard it wasn't. My dad wasvery disappointed. He told me I
was choosing the lesser light.
He had me read all the booksabout polygamy. He was very
disappointed in me, he wouldcome over every Sunday. So just
(28:27):
really fast background, I hadfive moms. And so we all had
five different houses. So hewould come over every fifth day,
to spend the night. But he afterI decided to join mainstream
LDS, finally came over everysingle Sunday, just so he could
preach to me about how I waschoosing the lesser light and
the lesser gospel, and that Iwas so privileged to be born in
(28:51):
the time and the place and inthe family that I was born in,
like, I must have been like,elect and who doesn't love to
hear that they're special andalive. God loves them the most
and all the things. So he wasvery disappointed and sad. My
mom, at this point, I'm nine of10, was distant. I'd say
disenchanted with polygamy. Ithink that she was kind of
(29:12):
wearing thin. So she was okaywith me joining the LDS church,
like she wouldn't go outrightand say it but she was okay with
it. So I just I kind of had toostracize my dad. And that was
hard. But the inner compasswhere my where it was telling me
to go was unmistakable. And Ikept checking in with myself,
(29:33):
like, Are you sure this is goingto change your family dynamic,
this is going to change whoyou're going to marry. This is
going to change who you interactwith. This is going to change. I
knew at that moment that I waschanging the trajectory of my
life. I knew that at 16 and Ikept checking, am I okay with
(29:54):
that? Is this where I want togo? And I knew that it was. So I
had an amazing group. havefriends in high school I think
that really helped. I hadlearned from elementary to lie
about being LDS I just startedlying and telling everyone I was
LDS because then I finally gotto talk about scriptures and
Book of Mormon things and, and Ihad all the Mormon language I
(30:16):
had all the Mormon culture. Andso if I would lie, then I could
just live and have friends thatI had similarities with. Yeah,
so by then everyone thought Iwas already Mormon. Anyway, so I
already have LDS friends I justthis huge group of friends and
they were amazing and kind and Iknew that they would support me
if I chose to get baptized. Andso I really had this huge sense
(30:40):
of community that I reallythrived in. A lot of love was
happening in that group offriends that made it very easy
for me to be able to join thechurch in that aspect. So that's
why I decided to leave and jointhe LDS church and I never
looked back like I never onceregretted my decision from
(31:00):
leaving polygamy into themainstream LDS church. Hmm.
So you said you were nine of 10.
So you had 10 siblings from thesame mom and dad, but then how
many step step siblings did youhave?
half siblings are 36 Yeah, sothere's, there's a lot of they
were kind of more my cousins. Wedidn't really live like the F
(31:22):
LDS do where a lot of the wivesare in the same homes. We live.
Like, my mom's were kind of moremy aunts. And we would go and
spend holidays with them. We'dsee them every Sunday, when we
went to church, I would havesleepovers at their house with
my siblings, and I loved it. Ithought it was great. I loved
that. I had another mom atanother house. I loved that. I
(31:44):
got to see my dad when he wasspending the night at their
house. So I thought it wasgreat. I loved all the siblings.
I loved a big family. I loved mymom's I loved having my dad
around. It was just this hugesense of love that I had.
That's beautiful. So you wereMormon for how many years? 1415
or so baptized at 18? Are youtalking about mainstream? Watch,
(32:08):
I did 18. And then I left atprobably 3536.
So what was that transition?
Like?
It was very, very, very, verydifficult. i My husband will say
that I probably cried every dayfor probably two years. Wow. It
(32:28):
was a great sense of betrayalthat I had felt. So it's a it's
a weird thing because I wasquite happy. Being mainstream
LDS. I married a wonderfulperson. And we had a wonderful
life. I was able to have all thekids I wanted. We never had any
(32:49):
fertility problems. I fit quitewell into my ward. I was
friendly, outgoing. I workedreally hard on all of my
callings. I was in the women'sin the primary in the nursery, I
was released to society,President 29 like I was in. And
(33:09):
I had no reason to question orwant to be out. There wasn't.
And so the best way the simplestway for me to describe it is my
dad became the leader of the AUbe in 2014. And so I guess
that's when it happened was 2014He became the leader and I
(33:32):
didn't care because it's not myprofits. I later it was just a
really crappy dad growing up,and just very disengaged, and
just not very friendly andwhatever. I didn't care. So when
he became Prophet, that wasfine. But one of my older
siblings, older sisters came tome and she said, she was
actually no longer in the AAUPeither. She's completely out
(33:54):
nonreligious. But she said, I'mhaving these like really weird
flashbacks of a temple ceremonythat I was involved in when I
was eight. And she said, Iremember wearing a white dress
and walking into a room with abunch of other little girls, and
there was very inappropriatesexual acts being done. And I
(34:22):
and she said, and I think Dadwas there. And I and I just was
like, I would never discountwhat she went through. That she
was having, like very weirdflashbacks. And she couldn't
remember all of it, but shedefinitely remembered it and
having my dad become Prophetreally had triggered that for
her. And knowing the trauma thatshe had gone through knowing
(34:47):
that she is she would never lieabout something like that. Yeah,
it really made me stop and thinkabout trying to put my dad in a
leadership position and takeadvantage of the power that he
had. And it really drew athrough line for me, from my dad
(35:07):
to my grandpa rule and toBrigham Young to Joseph Smith,
and I started seeing thisconsistent pattern of men
abusing their powers, and takingadvantage of the people around
them. And I couldn't deny anylonger that my dad is not any
(35:27):
better than Joseph Smith. And,and I, it really jarred me, and
I couldn't go to the templeanymore. And the temple used to
give me such comfort and calm.
So I was in the stake primary atthe time. And so I knew this the
State President pretty well. AndI could tell that I was starting
(35:50):
to every time I saw the templeor heard about the temple, I
would start getting this reallyvisceral reaction. Just very
upset over what my sister hadgone through. And so I went to
him. I had been crying forweeks. And I went to him with my
husband. And, of course, becausehe's the priesthood holder, and
I said, I, I've had thisincident happened that my sister
(36:12):
told me about, it's making itreally hard for me to want to go
to the temple I and I'm cryingat him. And he turns to my
husband, and he said, you know,what should we do? And my
husband was like, that's whywe're here. Because you're the,
like, you have dominion overlike the steak, like, that's why
(36:33):
we're coming to talk to you. Andhe goes, Well, you should
probably just go to the templeand sit in the parking lot until
you feel better about it. Andthat was another thought stop. I
thought, wow. That's, that'swhat your advice is. So you so
you're the, that's okay. So Ithought, You know what, I'm
(36:57):
going to have to figure this outon my own. I'm going to have to
figure out how to get over thison my own because this man who
claims to know, to getrevelation for his stake clearly
does not have revelation for me.
Yeah. So I went home and Ireally just did a big deep dive,
(37:20):
I did a big deep dive on JosephSmith on church history on all
of these different assets,aspects of Mormonism. And then I
saw all the problems that werethere before that I was just
unable to see before. Butreally, the three line was
watching these charismatic, sofun, so great men take advantage
(37:45):
of their power over people. Andand of course, there's, there's
all the other things, LGBTQ eyeissues, racism, you know,
obviously, the Doctrine andthings that I have an issue
with, but really, the main thingwas the really the like the
string that pulled the sweater,was my dad becoming the Prophet
(38:09):
of the ARB that really hadnothing to do with me in 2014.
So did the ARB have temples likewere the temple rituals really
similar toyou know, they're they're
similar like the 1800s. So like,when you go in and you're
getting your garments, yourendowments, well, not your not
your covenants, but just yourgarments, you have to go through
(38:30):
like a washing and anointing,right? So they were very much
old school where the Washingtonanointing you're naked, and
you're in a bathtub, and thereare some older women touching
all over your areas. anoint you.
So that was in the templecovenants. They still include
(38:54):
the punishments that go alongwith it. So it's it's very much
old school organism. But thefunny thing is when my grandpa
Rulon was in charge of the A,UB, there was no temple to be
had. So what the teaching was atthe time was you go join the
(39:15):
mainstream LDS church, become amember, however you need to do
it. Go get your templecovenants, get your garments,
come back and live polygamy. Andinteresting, I think a lot and
that's actually why themainstream LDS church really
buckled down in the 1980sBecause I'm sure a lot of that
had to do with my grandpatelling no idea about that, how
fascinatingand fake it. And then my grandpa
(39:39):
had given a prophecy that beforeI think it was before my aunt
Beth, it's just a woman in inour polygamist community before
she dies, that she will be ableto get the temple covenants
without going through themainstream. During the LDS
(39:59):
church, well, my grandma getsmurdered. She's getting older,
she's about to die. And they'relike, there's this prophecy
crap, we got to do somethingabout it. And they went in and
they took the temple covenantsand opened their own endowment
house. And so there is anendowment house now that they go
through and do their owngarments, their own temple come
(40:21):
in and sit on Washingtonanointing their own ceilings,
but that wasn't how itoriginated, it was that we were
supposed to be in tandem.
Really, it is that a UBpolygamists keeps keep polygamy
alive. And then the church doeseverything else, the
missionaries, the temple, allthose other things, that's a
(40:43):
whole Church's responsibility.
And then they're supposed tolive polygamy. So it's changed.
I mean, even they even polygamyhas changed so much to kind of
accommodate where the church hasdropped stuff off, where the
church has no longer practice,or what the rules of the church
are aware of, they make itreally difficult for polygamous
people to join the church. Sothey do know, at one point,
(41:09):
wow, and what an interestingthing to have happened to allow
you to start questioning thatevent with your sister, which,
especially with the client workthat I do in the circles that I
walk in, there are a lot ofpeople who have memories,
similar to little girls havingtrauma with older men, and the
different rituals that takeplace. And, you know, when you
(41:34):
I'm like trying to decide if Iwant to touch on this or not, I
from what I understand. And thebelief that I hold is that at
some point, in this earth, therewas a belief, especially with
women, that they carry certainaspects with them that can be
taken and received forthemselves through sexual acts.
(41:55):
And the reality is, is sex is asacred act. It's a very sacred
act. And it has been taintedwith a lot of different
practices and a lot of differentreligions that try to control
how sex is done. And so it'sinteresting, I feel how, like,
any truth that we're talkingabout, it's, it's been taken and
twisted just a little bit, forwhatever reason for manipulation
(42:18):
for power, or for whatever itis. And this is one of those
pieces that I think has. I mean,it has been around for a long
time, sadly, and I believe stillaround in a lot of different
religions. And anyway, I just Myheart goes out to you and your
sister, like, I'm sure that hadto be a hard thing for her to
(42:41):
reconcile and probably beautifulas well, to have that memory
come up and move through thatprocess.
It's it's she, she has expressedto me that she feels bad that,
that it has changed my life somuch. And I tell her often how
grateful I am I, I am sograteful that not only am I able
(43:03):
to see more clearly, but thatI'm able to change my children's
lives in a better way. Also,it's been if you want to put in,
in Mormon context, a trueblessing in my life, that she
felt like she shared that withme and that I could change my
children's lives and my life,too. So I am so grateful that
(43:25):
she talked to me about it.
Absolutely. And I feel like thisimbalance of I hate to use the
word power, but that's the onlyword that's coming through this
imbalance of power between themasculine and the feminine is
coming more into balance. Andjust like with your experience
with your, what you're sharingwhat your sister is sharing of
that recognition, and thenmaking a different choice of,
(43:47):
hey, this isn't okay. And I'mnot choosing to be a part of a
religion that secretly condonesthis. And yeah, I don't know if
that one. That one's a. Thatone's a tough one. It's a tough
one. Yeah. So since you havestepped out of the Mormon
religion, how, how has your lifebeen since Do you have a
(44:08):
connection to spirituality?
Like, what? What is how long ishow long has it been now since
that you've stepped out?
It's been about well, so 2014What is that eight years now? So
it's been about eight years, I'dhave to say. I don't know if
I've ever necessarily lost myspirituality. I just dropped all
(44:33):
the construct and predetermineddefinitions of what it was. And
so that's been the journey thatI've constantly been on is
deciding whether other people'sdefinitions of what spirituality
is fits with me. And, andwhether I'm okay with that. And
(44:56):
I feel and I've always felt it'sa responsive ability for me as a
mother to teach my childrenthose same skills. And so I've
really gone the extra mile to,hopefully my kids will catch on
teaching to follow their innercompass and recognize when
(45:17):
things don't feel right are whenthey do. And to kind of follow
that and then let go of all theshame and the guilt that was
never sat well with me. Anddefinitely since I've been
outside of the church, have seenthe damage that shame and guilt
and secrecy does to society, toa family to me, to my children.
(45:40):
So that's something that Iactively try to help my children
recognize, and then not let thatbe in control. So name it
detainment, talk about what'shard, we have hard conversations
all the time. I think that thathas been beautiful for me and
for my family. There's no topicthat's, that is off that we
(46:04):
can't talk about, there'snothing that I'm not going to
touch on because it can make meuncomfortable or them
uncomfortable. And I thinkthat's been beautiful and very
fulfilling in our lives. And inour family life. Families. Life
is just being able to talk aboutwhatever is presented in front
of us and being aware, beingpresent and being willing to
(46:25):
explore and sit with it, sitwith the emotion, sit with the
experience, and be present andin it. And then I have felt like
living has helped me live a lifewith no regrets. One of the
biggest life changing thingsthat I hit me right at the right
(46:46):
time in my life was the secularBuddhist podcast was no Russia,
he had this I ate it up. Becausehe's in a mixed faith marriage,
I was worried I was going to bein mixed faith marriage because
I didn't know where my husbandstood. And now I'm ruining our
celestial family. Now, it'slike, my kids are gonna look at
(47:06):
me differently. They're notgoing to think I'm this
wonderful mom, that my husbandcould divorce me I could lose
all of my family. Yeah. And hereally helped me navigate. And
there's a story that I love,that he talks about, you know, a
Buddhist monk coming across ariver, and he built himself a
raft and made it across theriver. And then he was trying to
(47:27):
decide should he carry thisraft, now that he has mountains
to pass, or should he let it go.
And that's really how I'vetaught my life is or thought of
my life is I'm grateful forwhere I was when I was I don't
regret being Mormon, I don'tregret growing up polygamist. I
don't regret the kids I had, orthe choices I made with husband
(47:47):
I married or where I'm at,because I did the best I could
with the information I had atthe time. And I want that for my
children, I want them to nothave this like guilt and worry
and shame that they made thewrong choice, they did that. And
if you're present, and if you'reaware, and if you're in the
situation, then you can havethat too. Just this constant,
(48:09):
like I did the best I could withthe information I had now and be
okay.
And then giving yourself gracein that space. I just had a
conversation with someone thismorning about that self
forgiveness piece, and how whenwe carry guilt from the past
that shapes our future, and howimportant it is. And it hit me
(48:30):
on a deeper level of where arethe places within me of choices
that I've made in my life thathave created, you know,
repercussions, especially whenwe have children, right the
things that we choose asparents, we do our best. And
there's things that affect ourkids and affect our circles and
where have I not given myselfgrace and that forgiveness of I
was just doing the best withwith what I had. And I think
(48:54):
that's something for all of usto really sit with and kind of
take inventory of are the placesI'm still carrying guilt for the
choices that I've made or forthe choices that I did make
especially when you step outsideof religion we usually often
carry like that anger thatdisgust or that how could I have
chosen that? And it's like wellof course you chose that was
really beautiful for a time andnow you're choosing something
(49:15):
else and and I love all thepieces that you're sharing
because this ability that wehave now to teach our children
to ask the questions. What didyou say if it's uncomfortable?
What are what would what wasthat little phrase like? You
speak it? What was it that yousaid that you do with your kids?
Um, just follow their innercompass and you said
(49:38):
something else with like, if yousomething if you feel it, speak
it or that something was adiscomfort I didn't write it
down.
It was this comfort sit in thesituation sit at the emotion
Yeah. And be present in it. Idon't remember what I
said. I don't remember either.
I'll have to go back and I'llput it in the show notes. But
yeah, I loved what I loved withyou You said and I love that
(49:59):
you're having that opencommunication. And usually
towards the end of my podcast,I'd actually I wish we had like
another hour to just dive intosome of this because it's so fun
to chat with you as far as youryour knowledge and experience
that you've had, because theyfind it really interesting. But
one of the things that I askedmost podcast guests is what
would you recommend? What advicewhat one thing would you leave
(50:21):
to anyone that's listening thatmay be choosing out of any
religion that is struggling? Youknow, you spoke for two years,
you had tears almost every day,and you had emotions that you
even you were even sharing thatand that was a really hard
chapter for you and for so manythat stepped out of religion. So
what is that one piece of advicethat you would love
(50:44):
to offer? That it's okay to bescared? Yeah, I think religion
gives us a sense of comfort andjoy in that comfort and living
within the box that the religionhas created, but to remember
that the religion has alsocreated the sickness that you
(51:05):
wouldn't need their salvation ifyou didn't have their religion.
And, and that it's okay to bescared. And this new feeling of
uncomfortableness is okay, andyou will get to the other side.
And you will figure it out. It'sit's that it's like what if I'm
always going to sit in thisscared, worried place? And you
(51:30):
won't, but you don't know thatsitting in it? You don't you
just can't see it. And so it'sit's beautiful, and it's so
fulfilling on the other side? Mmhmm.
I would agree with that. Oh,beautiful. Is there anything
else you feel like you wouldlove to share?
No, not at this time, just thankyou so much for this
opportunity. It's been wonderfultalking to you.
(51:52):
Thank you. It's like I said, Iwish I had another hour. But I'm
being cautious at both of ourtimes, because I know we have a
few things coming up. But Iwould love to sit with a with
you with another an hour becauseone of the pieces is coming
through. And I mentioned this toyou before we even started
recording. There's a sacredfeminine piece that taps in with
all religion that has beensuppressed for so long, and it's
not. Anyway, I guess I'm justgoing to leave it there, you and
(52:15):
I are going to have a littleconversation after this. But
just to the listeners, the thewomen that have felt suppressed,
you know, when we're talkingabout there was a reason for
decisions that we've all made atcertain times in our life, it's
the same thing with thepatriarchy and the men that did
create and start this religionfor whatever reasons they were
doing. Really, they're probablydoing the best with what they
(52:36):
had at the time, even if itlooks and feels and whatever it
is, we have judgment around it.
And now we all get to make adifferent choice. And we get to
activate parts of us that havebeen suppressed for a long, long
time. And that is exciting tome. And that is also not at the
detriment of men. It's justbringing more balance into both
the masculine and the feminine.
(52:58):
There's room at the table forboth. And that's what I think
oftentimes some men can forgetis that there's there's room
enough for all of us. There'sthere's enough room, it's okay
to share the space.
Yeah, absolutely. Well,beautiful. Well, thanks again,
Liz. I so I really, reallyenjoyed this, and I appreciate
your time.
Yes, thanks again, I really, Ireally enjoyed it.
(53:22):
Wasn't that a powerful andreally interesting and
insightful interview, I reallyappreciate it a lot of the
things that she shared and a lotof pieces of the wisdom that she
gained, and just how she'sassisting her kids and having a
different experience. If youagain are looking to really lean
in more to your genius havetools to support you, and
(53:45):
network of people that are likeminded, I invite you to step
into my mastermind group thatstarted November 27, head to my
website, Amanda loveland.com,forward slash elevated
mastermind to join today. Andremember, my friends, you are
not alone. We are all in thistogether. And the more we lean
into our genius and awaken towho we are and who we've always
(54:08):
been, we will allow forremembrance to happen and an
unlocking of these pieces withinus that we didn't even know. And
then life gets to be full of thequestion of what is possible
instead of what are these thingshappening to me as much as
possible. What do I get tocreate what do you want to
create? So with all of thatsending you all so much live if
(54:30):
you feel the call to be when I'ma guest on my podcast, had to
might either message me on mysocial media pages or head to my
website, go to the podcast taband you'll see where to apply to
be a guest sending you off somuch love and have a beautiful
day.
Welcome to my podcast leaving religion a guide. I am
excited to share with you thisnext guest as diving into a
little bit more of the the sectsare the groups that broke off
from the original belief systemaround Mormonism, there was a
few things I wasn't aware of. Soit's really interesting to have
this conversation with my nextguest. But before we dive in, I
(00:26):
want to invite you if you'refeeling like you're in a place
in your life to where you'relooking for more guidance, for
more ways of how to tap intoyour gifts, your abilities with
how to lean more into and learnmore of what your genius is, and
how to get to where you'rewanting to go, I'm going to
invite you to step in and joinmy mastermind group that's
(00:47):
starting November 27. And thisis a life elevated mastermind,
and we'll be the group that'scoming together is quite
powerful. So I'm really, reallyexcited. And I priced this
group, it's really, reallyinexpensive, because it feels
like there's so many that knowthey have these gifts, they know
how they have these abilities.
They know they want to to leaninto their souls purpose, but
(01:08):
they're not quite sure how. Sothis group is really, really
going to get you closer to whereyou're wanting to go and offer
tools and different guestspeakers to help give insight.
And it's just it's going to bepowerful. So head to my website,
Amanda loveland.com, forwardslash elevated mastermind, to go
get more information and to jointhis group today. Again, this
(01:31):
starts November 27. And I cannotwait to see you there. So
without further ado, let's diveinto my next interview that I
had with Liz. Well, I am soexcited to be sitting down with
you today, Liz and I am excitedto we had a mutual friend that
had a friend I mean, she'sfamily to you, but a good friend
of mine that said you need tointerview Liz. And so I know a
(01:54):
little bit of your story, but Idon't know much. But I know it's
a really unique experience thatyou've gone through. And so I'm
really excited to hear you justhear everything you've gone
through. So thank you forjoining me and thanks for saying
yes. Yeah,I'm excited to be here. Thanks
for the opportunity.
Yeah, me too. So I don't evenknow quite where to dive into
(02:14):
because I don't know what yourbut what did you I know you come
from polygamy. Were you borninto polygamy? Yeah. So
to put it very generalized, Icome from a kind of, if you want
to put it loosely, polygamyroyalty. So my grandfather was
(02:35):
ruling all red and he was theprophet of his specific Church,
the apostolic United Brethrenfrom about the mid 1950s until
he was murdered by a rivalpolygamous group, the law barons
in 1977. And so I, I was borninto that group and later and
(03:00):
from 2014, until my dad justpassed away in October, he was
the leader or the Prophet of thea UB. So I it kind of comes from
both sides. My mom's maiden nameis all red, so ruling all red
and then I grew up being aThompson. So I grew up in
(03:20):
polygamy. That's all I knew as achild, and I loved it. I loved
having tons of siblings, I lovedhaving multiple Moms. My mom and
dad were really good at makingit look amazing. So I just had,
it's the reality I lived in itwas the water that I swam in.
(03:42):
And so I thought it was greatand wonderful. And we were
taught that it's very much intandem with the mainstream LDS
church. This a up there theirjob, their main goal, at least
while I was growing up was tokeep polygamy alive until Christ
comes again. And then their jobsare to teach the mainstream LDS
(04:04):
church how to live polygamyagain. So we were kind of
supposed to be waiting in thewings until Christ comes again.
And then because we were keepingthe celestial law, the the
higher law alive, doing thatthrough living polygamy, then we
(04:26):
would be able to teach that tothe mainstream LDS. So I grew up
going to public schools. I thinka lot of people have
misconceptions of polygamy,especially from the media, if
they don't really dive into it.
They assume the ones that kindof get the most attention is
Warren Jeffs in the F LDS. Andwe were separate from them since
the 1950s. We really have notbeen too associated with them.
(04:48):
So I grew up going to publicschool. wearing regular clothes,
we didn't have to dress anythingweird. Our hair was normal. We
very much blended into society.
And that's a lot how the AU B isnow, if anyone has ever worked
sister wives with Kody Brown,they come from our group and I
(05:10):
am related to Christine Brown,the one that had just left him
not too long ago, at least inthis past season. I don't watch
a lot of it because it's verysimilar to how I grew up, it's
not really my cup of tea towatch. But that is that is the
religion that I grew up in. Andmy older siblings know Cody
(05:30):
brown and the wives very well.
They had grown up with themCody's been to our house. So I
was quite happy in my childhoodfor a very long time. And when I
was 16, I had an older sisterwho decided to join the
mainstream LDS church. And Ikind of followed her through
that process. And the thing thatwas so interesting about it is,
(05:54):
though, I wanted to join at 16,I had to wait until I was 18.
Because when you're coming froma polygamous background to go
into the mainstream LDS churchis actually takes a long time.
It's a long process and you haveto go through a lot of steps,
one of them being unique withone of the 12 apostles. So it
was kind of a fight to to beable to join the mainstream LDS
(06:18):
church, but I didn't have toescape. There was no huge drama.
My dad was disappointed. My momwas sad, but there was that was
about it. There wasn't any huge.
I didn't get kicked out of thehouse, I didn't lose my family,
they were still very loving. Sothat's kind of where it came
(06:39):
from. It's so similar to themainstream LDS church that when
I first joined mainstream LDS, Iwould I would sometimes have to
check with people like myfriends or my spouse, and ask
them is, is this teaching frommainstream or is this something
I'm remembering from likepolygamy background and they
(07:02):
would kind of have to walk methrough it and that's fine. I
was all in the mainstream LDSchurch for a very long time. I
was baptized at 18 and I think Ileft in my mid 30s. Stream LDS.
So I was and I was quite happyin the mainstream LDS church to
because I was really good atjust listening and obeying and
(07:22):
following I really trusted theleaders, I really trusted the
information I was getting,because I wouldn't understand
why anyone would be deceitful ornot truthful. So I was quite
happy in both. I didn't leavebecause I was just I was I was
disenchanted with either ofthem. I just liked because it
(07:44):
felt like I was following myinner compass. Mm hmm. That's
beautiful. I'm curious. How canyou say mainstream LDS, um,
if you know a lot aboutMormonism, there is so many
branches of Mormonism and themainstream LDS church that's in
Utah that people call Latter DaySaints, Church of Jesus Christ
(08:06):
of Latter Day Saints. They havereally tried to distance
themselves from the many breakoffs and branches that have come
from Joseph Smith's, quote,unquote, Restoration of the
gospel. One of them being theChurch of Christ, that's back in
Missouri. There's so many breakoffs of Mormonism, that
(08:29):
oftentimes when I am fascinatingbetween all the different
branches of Mormonism, I have tobe more specific on who we're
dealing with. Because mainstreamis kind of came from the Brigham
Young, got rid of polygamy gavethe blacks the priesthood in the
1978 77 era. They did all thesethings that and it has the
(08:55):
largest following, but that isnot. That's not all Mormonism
is, I grew up Mormon. Mypolygamous background is Mormon.
F LDS, you could call it Mormon.
There's so many branches, somany break offs that when I'm
when I'm so fascinated inbetween all of these different
Mormon worlds, I have to makesure I differentiate between
Yeah.
(09:17):
That's interesting. You're thefirst guest that I've had that
that says that phrase often, andI've really never heard that. So
that's why I was curious why,but that makes sense. So did you
in your religion growing up withpolygamy, then did you study the
Book of Mormon or did you have adifferent script? You did? Yeah.
So the, the A, UB the polygamistbackground really, is similar to
(09:42):
and draws from early Mormonism.
So like the 1800s 1844 if youwant to kind of put like a stamp
on it, I would say if you tookMormons from the 1890s and And
that's really the Mormons you'redealing with are the Mormons
that I grew up with. So you'redealing with the Doctrine and
(10:04):
Covenants Pearl of Great PriceBook of Mormon. The Bible, the
King James version, the oldgarments that go down to your
ankles and wrists that have theties in the front. You're really
if you were to step back intime, the the mainstream LDS
church has changed so much overtime. And many times they would
(10:26):
prefer to not recognize that theto pretend like it's always been
that way. But so many thingshave changed over time, Temple,
endowments, temple covenants,all of these different things
have changed so drastically, andthey really try to pretend like
they haven't, that it's this.
(10:48):
God is the same yesterday, todayand forever, when realistically,
their base doctrines havechanged. And in the A, B and the
F LDS, though they have takensome things to extremes. They,
they definitely have held on tothe older beliefs, the older
(11:08):
Mormons. So it's very muchexactly the same. I mean, it was
hard because as a child,mainstream LDS people are
especially there was a huge pushin the 1980s 1970s 1980s, they
were losing some of theirmembers to the polygamist
(11:29):
groups, because if you're doingany kind of dive into Mormon
history, you find that JosephSmith was claiming that polygamy
was the everlasting covenantthat that was how you made it to
the celestial kingdom, which isthe highest kingdom and the
Mormon Heaven is having threewives or more. So if you truly
believe and that is yourtestimony, that you want to make
(11:52):
it to the celestial kingdom, andyou want to find the base, the
doctrine, the earliest doctrinethat there was, you can easily
get caught into polygamy. There,we had mainstream LDS people
come off into our group, becauseit was so similar to mainstream
LDS, and yet held on to some ofthose base early doctrines that
(12:16):
have not been changed over time.
And that is different in so manyways. But one of the really
damaging things is, blacks notbeing able to hold the
priesthood. So in these many,many polygamist groups, you're
not going to find anyone ofAfrican American descent or or
black or however you want todefine it because they broke off
(12:36):
before the mainstream LDS churchgave the blacks or whoever you
want to say the priesthood. Soit's very, very old school. And
so it's, we very much grew upMormon and at the same time, we
were ostracized my familyspecifically, but most
(12:58):
polygamous children areostracized and treated
differently and not allowed toplay with the LDS kids. There
was a real fear that was taughtfrom the pulpit to stay away
from polygamist families. Thatis actually one of the reasons
why in the temple recommendinterview they asked if you have
(13:19):
been affiliating with anyoutside groups, or it is about
polygamous. They really lost alot of people to polygamy. I
actually have a reallyinteresting story. So I grew up
on the same street my wholelife. My mom lived there for 50
years. She raised all of herkids there. And so everyone on
(13:39):
the street knew that we werepolygamist kids and they were
not allowed to play with us. Wewould did go to public school,
but I didn't have any LDSfriends that lived on the same
street with me because theyweren't allowed to play with us.
And a new family moved in and itwas a family of girls. It was
like six girls, and they didn'tknow that we were polygamous yet
(14:02):
and it was so exciting. So weplayed with them all summer, my
sister and I did. And by the endof the summer, they kind of
weren't around anymore. So Iwalked over to their house and
asked if my friend Faline couldplay and her mom came outside
and said we're not allowing thekids to play with you anymore.
You come you guys arepolygamists, and that's just not
(14:23):
okay. And so don't come back.
And that was the theme of ourchildhood. We had rocks thrown
at us. We got yelled at thatfamily, that specific family.
The dad's name was Joseph Smith.
And he Yeah, it was sointeresting. Yeah, he became the
(14:44):
stake president. When my momeventually divorced my dad and
decided to mean to join themainstream LDS church. He became
the stake president in that samearea, and I was able to talk to
him about See what had happenedas a child when I was a child?
And I said, you know, youwouldn't. He asked my mom a
(15:05):
question. He said, I hope youenjoyed living in our
neighborhood. And she said,Well, I, I've never minded it.
It's been fine for me. But mykids have had a hard time. And
he goes, Oh, that's, well,that's too bad. Why? And that's
when I jumped in. And I said,Well, it was actually your kids
that weren't very nice to us.
(15:27):
And you wouldn't let them playwith us because we were
polygamist. And he goes, Yeah,that checks out. That makes
sense. And I definitely wouldn'tlet my kids play with a
polygamist kids. So that makessense. He had no regrets. And
really, that was a themethroughout my childhood is if
people found out about mychildhood, and where it came
(15:48):
from. There were lots of thingsthat could happen. One of them
being I would lose a friend, butthe other one being that I could
lose my family. There was raidsin the 1950s to put in jail
polygamous men, my grandpa ruleand actually got put in jail. So
there was a real fear that waspassed down to us that we needed
to keep it secret. And along theMormonism theme, sacred is
(16:13):
secret. So then it's like livingpolygamy. We're living the
higher law. It's sacred. It'ssecret. We don't tell people so
it's this dichotomy where welived in the world but not of
the world, just like times 10,because they're taught that in
the mainstream LDS church, yeah.
But it's even more exponentialgrowing up the way I grew up.
(16:34):
Wow, did you grew up in Utah?
I did. So I grew up in WestJordan. UB has, they're
everywhere. When I first marriedmy husband, I used to joke with
him because I would see my auntsand my cousins and people that I
grew up with all at the movietheater at the grocery store.
And I'd be like, that's from theARB. That's from two and they
(16:57):
just look normal. So they liveamongst us in Utah that you you
think you would recognize apolygamist but you don't. I have
brothers that are doctors anddentists. So they're, they're
all over I grew up in WestJordan, they're their main
churches in Bluffdale. Butthere's kind of a large group in
Eagle Mountain, in Santa Quinn.
There's Montana, Mexico,Wyoming. There's there's places
(17:23):
all over it that have the samebeliefs. But that's just
specifically apostolic, UnitedBrethren, we're not touching
into any of the independentpolygamists that don't really
have a huge following. We're nottalking about the Church of
Christ, we're not talking aboutI mean, there's so many
different branches, and sectsthat people don't realize that
it's really saturated, andthey're just unaware.
(17:47):
Hmm. Really interesting. And I,it is, it is fascinating to kind
of dive into these pieces, whereI don't I mean, I grew up in
Utah, and I knew about thepolygamous, but we never really
talked about it, at least not inthe area that I grew up in,
because it wasn't really in ourfaces, I guess. And, but it was
always kind of that, oh, theyhave the old. You know, that's
(18:11):
that's not how we practice.
That's the old mentality. That'snot whatever, right. And then,
of course, when you have thelaws that come in that say, you
can't have more than one wife,and then now it's the actual
you're committing a, you know,there, you can be put in jail
for this. It's interesting, theunwinding of it, and then at the
core of it, the fact that youwere shunned as a child like
(18:32):
that, that makes me sad, then Iwonder if I would have behaved
that way. If I was the same of,you know, her, and I don't know,
I may have when I, when you'rein a religion, you're so narrow,
like that narrow mindedness isso focused on the path of
eternal salvation. And anythingthat comes into it is there is
so much fear, which is superironic, because that's not
(18:55):
unconditional love. That's nothow Christ was. That's not you
know, how how God is. So it is,it is super interesting. I'm
curious with the doctrine,because there is such a deep
seated belief in the patriarchyand you know, having the
priesthood if that if they hadthe same beliefs as Mormons with
the priesthood, and that's whymen were the ones that had
(19:18):
multiple wives, and what thementality was there to that that
was the everlasting, what didyou call the everlasting
covenant to actually get intothe celestial kingdom? Can you
share a little bit of what yourknowledge is with that?
Yeah, it's definitelypatriarchy. And it really has to
do with the temple covenants.
And I mean, it's section 132. Ithink oftentimes, when
(19:42):
mainstream LDS people learnabout section 132 They like to
go well, it's about templecovenants. It's about that's how
you have your celestialmarriage. That's an it's it's
part of it, but but really 132had to do with Joseph Smith
justifying taking on more thanone wife. And that that is
(20:06):
what's going to bring him intothe celestial kingdom. I mean,
if you really dive into theearly history, historical
documents, historicalinformation about early church,
the main if you're getting allof your information from
mainstream LDS, they arecovering those things up because
it's, it's an embarrassment. Andthey want to say that that was
(20:32):
just a small section. I mean,how many? If you think back, did
you even know that Joseph Smithhad multiple wives until
probably the last 10 years? LikeI always knew that? Yeah, but it
was something that wasn't reallytalked about.
No, it wasn't. And when I gotmarried, my husband didn't know
that they're not teaching thatin Sunday school and mainstream
(20:54):
LDS. But it, it follows rightalong the lines of patriarchy
and the priesthood, and that themore wives you have, the higher
and, and they're in, in theirframe, the woman is helping the
man get to the celestialkingdom, and they have to do it
(21:15):
together. But really, it's theman that holds all the power. I
mean, they teach that priesthoodpower binds what is in heaven
here on earth, or what's here onEarth in heaven. So you really
have the power of God, here onEarth, that's what the
priesthood power is. So ifthey're sealing you with the
priesthood power here, thenthat's going to transfer up into
(21:37):
heaven and you're being sealedup in heaven. If you don't have
a priesthood power, then you canget married here. But that
doesn't mean you're going to bemarried in the heavens, that's
kind of the one of the sellingpoints of the LDS Church is the
that if if you get married herein our church, then you'll be
guaranteed to be married andheaven, you get to your family
(21:57):
forever. So, but that comesthrough the male line that comes
through the patriarchy. Andwomen are especially now not
able to do that, and not reallyhaving those those privileges
those priesthood powers, andit's very much delve into
patriarchy when I was veryyoung. I did ask my mom and dad,
(22:19):
I mean, I remember sitting atthe kitchen table and asking,
well, if, if Dad can have lotsof wives and I can have lots of
husbands, right. And that wasobviously very shut down very
quickly. Because it only goesone way paid. priesthood only
goes one way. And you could say,could come from like the culture
of the 1800s. I think thatdefinitely put people in, in why
(22:47):
it turned out the way it did. Imean, women for so long, have
been suppressed and takenadvantage of and really been
identified as less than a fullhuman like, yes, you're human,
but not like you. You reallycan't have all the roles and
responsibilities. I'll do thatfor you. You're here to help me.
(23:07):
Yeah, it will. Yeah. And it'slike, it's a big burden. But
somebody's got to do it. Well,and I can't be used so so I'll
make sure I do it. I mean, Ithink I think it absolutely has
to do with patriarchy, andpriesthood. And that's just was
definitely more well defined.
When Brigham Young took whoeverwould follow into a territory
(23:29):
that didn't have a lot of whitesettlers. Of course, it was
inhabited, but it didn't have alot of white settlers. So he
kind of got to curate the rulesand the context and how people
worked and functioned. So thatworked out really well for him
and for the LDS church to havekind of no one else around to
(23:53):
make the rules or have anypushback. So I think that's my
thoughts on patriarchy. I thinkit's been around for so long,
that Mormon really fed into itand really gleaned from it.
I would agree. I'm just like,I'm on the tail end of a cold so
you can see I keep clearing mythroat I apologize. It's like
still just the last little endof this brutal cold that is
(24:16):
going around that everybody'shad. Yeah, no problem. I there I
find this so fascinating, right,just this the way that that you
can take truth. You know,whatever the filters were, that
truth came through some man thathad all this revelation that
that then has gotten filteredthrough however many outs that
(24:37):
have come in as prophets andseers and regulators and you
know, just created all thesedifferent sects and cultures and
and it's just it is really it's,it's quite fascinating. So I'm
curious as you were growing upwithin the a UB what made you
want to go be in the mainstreamMormonism?
(24:59):
That's a Really good question.
It's kind of even even now, assomeone who's really taken a lot
of time to think about it,because leaving your religion is
very jarring and can be veryhard. And I know that I spent a
lot of time thinking about it,it was a very conscious
decision. And when I was inmainstream LDS, so from ages 18
(25:24):
on until a few years ago, Iwould I would describe it as I
was already questioning it alittle bit. So I had been
sitting in a Sunday meeting inmy polygamous church, and my
uncle was the prophet at thetime. And he said over the
pulpit, what makes our break offof the church, the correct break
(25:47):
off, and I remember kind of likestopping for a minute, because
of course, I was a goodpolygamous child play kid. And I
was writing down everything yousaid, because this was the
leader speaking, the prophetspeaking. And I remember
stopping my pencil and beinglike, wait a minute, what you
just call this a break off. Solike, we're not the one true
church like we're a break off.
(26:09):
And there's multiple break offs.
And that was a thought stop forme. Yeah, that's really what
made me go, Wait a minute, youjust, I thought we were like,
the one true church, like Ithought we had the truth, like I
had been taught that I was notonly Mormon, I was like a better
Mormon than like other Mormons,because we were living this
great way. So I wrote it down.
(26:33):
And then my sister who haddecided to already join the
church, she found it and askedme about it. She said, Hey, I
saw that you wrote down herethat you don't know if this is,
you're confused about it being abreak off. And I just want to
share my testimony to you that Iknow that this The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter DaySaints is the true Church and
that all these I mean, she, shebore her testimony to me. And I
(26:58):
described it if I could put itin the context of when I was in
mainstream LDS as like a lightswitch flipping on. And all of a
sudden, I could see the room.
And I could see all of thispotential, I could see all these
things that weren't therebefore. Now, looking back on it,
I think it gave me a sense ofcommunity, a sense of, I don't
(27:21):
like secrecy. I don't likeshame. I think it's just
something from like the core ofwho I am. And knowing that if I
joined the mainstream LDSchurch, I no longer had to live
in secrecy. I didn't have tohide who I was, I wouldn't be
accepted. In the mainstreamcommunity, I would be accepted
(27:42):
out in the world. And mychildren wouldn't have to go
through my potential childrenwouldn't have to go through the
authorization, thedemoralization, the
embarrassment, what I wentthrough, it was like a way to
finally be out and open and andhave no secrecy. And that's kind
(28:03):
of why I think I drew to themainstream LDS church, and it
was hard it wasn't. My dad wasvery disappointed. He told me I
was choosing the lesser light.
He had me read all the booksabout polygamy. He was very
disappointed in me, he wouldcome over every Sunday. So just
(28:27):
really fast background, I hadfive moms. And so we all had
five different houses. So hewould come over every fifth day,
to spend the night. But he afterI decided to join mainstream
LDS, finally came over everysingle Sunday, just so he could
preach to me about how I waschoosing the lesser light and
the lesser gospel, and that Iwas so privileged to be born in
(28:51):
the time and the place and inthe family that I was born in,
like, I must have been like,elect and who doesn't love to
hear that they're special andalive. God loves them the most
and all the things. So he wasvery disappointed and sad. My
mom, at this point, I'm nine of10, was distant. I'd say
disenchanted with polygamy. Ithink that she was kind of
(29:12):
wearing thin. So she was okaywith me joining the LDS church,
like she wouldn't go outrightand say it but she was okay with
it. So I just I kind of had toostracize my dad. And that was
hard. But the inner compasswhere my where it was telling me
to go was unmistakable. And Ikept checking in with myself,
(29:33):
like, Are you sure this is goingto change your family dynamic,
this is going to change whoyou're going to marry. This is
going to change who you interactwith. This is going to change. I
knew at that moment that I waschanging the trajectory of my
life. I knew that at 16 and Ikept checking, am I okay with
(29:54):
that? Is this where I want togo? And I knew that it was. So I
had an amazing group. havefriends in high school I think
that really helped. I hadlearned from elementary to lie
about being LDS I just startedlying and telling everyone I was
LDS because then I finally gotto talk about scriptures and
Book of Mormon things and, and Ihad all the Mormon language I
(30:16):
had all the Mormon culture. Andso if I would lie, then I could
just live and have friends thatI had similarities with. Yeah,
so by then everyone thought Iwas already Mormon. Anyway, so I
already have LDS friends I justthis huge group of friends and
they were amazing and kind and Iknew that they would support me
if I chose to get baptized. Andso I really had this huge sense
(30:40):
of community that I reallythrived in. A lot of love was
happening in that group offriends that made it very easy
for me to be able to join thechurch in that aspect. So that's
why I decided to leave and jointhe LDS church and I never
looked back like I never onceregretted my decision from
(31:00):
leaving polygamy into themainstream LDS church. Hmm.
So you said you were nine of 10.
So you had 10 siblings from thesame mom and dad, but then how
many step step siblings did youhave?
half siblings are 36 Yeah, sothere's, there's a lot of they
were kind of more my cousins. Wedidn't really live like the F
(31:22):
LDS do where a lot of the wivesare in the same homes. We live.
Like, my mom's were kind of moremy aunts. And we would go and
spend holidays with them. We'dsee them every Sunday, when we
went to church, I would havesleepovers at their house with
my siblings, and I loved it. Ithought it was great. I loved
that. I had another mom atanother house. I loved that. I
(31:44):
got to see my dad when he wasspending the night at their
house. So I thought it wasgreat. I loved all the siblings.
I loved a big family. I loved mymom's I loved having my dad
around. It was just this hugesense of love that I had.
That's beautiful. So you wereMormon for how many years? 1415
or so baptized at 18? Are youtalking about mainstream? Watch,
(32:08):
I did 18. And then I left atprobably 3536.
So what was that transition?
Like?
It was very, very, very, verydifficult. i My husband will say
that I probably cried every dayfor probably two years. Wow. It
(32:28):
was a great sense of betrayalthat I had felt. So it's a it's
a weird thing because I wasquite happy. Being mainstream
LDS. I married a wonderfulperson. And we had a wonderful
life. I was able to have all thekids I wanted. We never had any
(32:49):
fertility problems. I fit quitewell into my ward. I was
friendly, outgoing. I workedreally hard on all of my
callings. I was in the women'sin the primary in the nursery, I
was released to society,President 29 like I was in. And
(33:09):
I had no reason to question orwant to be out. There wasn't.
And so the best way the simplestway for me to describe it is my
dad became the leader of the AUbe in 2014. And so I guess
that's when it happened was 2014He became the leader and I
(33:32):
didn't care because it's not myprofits. I later it was just a
really crappy dad growing up,and just very disengaged, and
just not very friendly andwhatever. I didn't care. So when
he became Prophet, that wasfine. But one of my older
siblings, older sisters came tome and she said, she was
actually no longer in the AAUPeither. She's completely out
(33:54):
nonreligious. But she said, I'mhaving these like really weird
flashbacks of a temple ceremonythat I was involved in when I
was eight. And she said, Iremember wearing a white dress
and walking into a room with abunch of other little girls, and
there was very inappropriatesexual acts being done. And I
(34:22):
and she said, and I think Dadwas there. And I and I just was
like, I would never discountwhat she went through. That she
was having, like very weirdflashbacks. And she couldn't
remember all of it, but shedefinitely remembered it and
having my dad become Prophetreally had triggered that for
her. And knowing the trauma thatshe had gone through knowing
(34:47):
that she is she would never lieabout something like that. Yeah,
it really made me stop and thinkabout trying to put my dad in a
leadership position and takeadvantage of the power that he
had. And it really drew athrough line for me, from my dad
(35:07):
to my grandpa rule and toBrigham Young to Joseph Smith,
and I started seeing thisconsistent pattern of men
abusing their powers, and takingadvantage of the people around
them. And I couldn't deny anylonger that my dad is not any
(35:27):
better than Joseph Smith. And,and I, it really jarred me, and
I couldn't go to the templeanymore. And the temple used to
give me such comfort and calm.
So I was in the stake primary atthe time. And so I knew this the
State President pretty well. AndI could tell that I was starting
(35:50):
to every time I saw the templeor heard about the temple, I
would start getting this reallyvisceral reaction. Just very
upset over what my sister hadgone through. And so I went to
him. I had been crying forweeks. And I went to him with my
husband. And, of course, becausehe's the priesthood holder, and
I said, I, I've had thisincident happened that my sister
(36:12):
told me about, it's making itreally hard for me to want to go
to the temple I and I'm cryingat him. And he turns to my
husband, and he said, you know,what should we do? And my
husband was like, that's whywe're here. Because you're the,
like, you have dominion overlike the steak, like, that's why
(36:33):
we're coming to talk to you. Andhe goes, Well, you should
probably just go to the templeand sit in the parking lot until
you feel better about it. Andthat was another thought stop. I
thought, wow. That's, that'swhat your advice is. So you so
you're the, that's okay. So Ithought, You know what, I'm
(36:57):
going to have to figure this outon my own. I'm going to have to
figure out how to get over thison my own because this man who
claims to know, to getrevelation for his stake clearly
does not have revelation for me.
Yeah. So I went home and Ireally just did a big deep dive,
(37:20):
I did a big deep dive on JosephSmith on church history on all
of these different assets,aspects of Mormonism. And then I
saw all the problems that werethere before that I was just
unable to see before. Butreally, the three line was
watching these charismatic, sofun, so great men take advantage
(37:45):
of their power over people. Andand of course, there's, there's
all the other things, LGBTQ eyeissues, racism, you know,
obviously, the Doctrine andthings that I have an issue
with, but really, the main thingwas the really the like the
string that pulled the sweater,was my dad becoming the Prophet
(38:09):
of the ARB that really hadnothing to do with me in 2014.
So did the ARB have temples likewere the temple rituals really
similar toyou know, they're they're
similar like the 1800s. So like,when you go in and you're
getting your garments, yourendowments, well, not your not
your covenants, but just yourgarments, you have to go through
(38:30):
like a washing and anointing,right? So they were very much
old school where the Washingtonanointing you're naked, and
you're in a bathtub, and thereare some older women touching
all over your areas. anoint you.
So that was in the templecovenants. They still include
(38:54):
the punishments that go alongwith it. So it's it's very much
old school organism. But thefunny thing is when my grandpa
Rulon was in charge of the A,UB, there was no temple to be
had. So what the teaching was atthe time was you go join the
(39:15):
mainstream LDS church, become amember, however you need to do
it. Go get your templecovenants, get your garments,
come back and live polygamy. Andinteresting, I think a lot and
that's actually why themainstream LDS church really
buckled down in the 1980sBecause I'm sure a lot of that
had to do with my grandpatelling no idea about that, how
fascinatingand fake it. And then my grandpa
(39:39):
had given a prophecy that beforeI think it was before my aunt
Beth, it's just a woman in inour polygamist community before
she dies, that she will be ableto get the temple covenants
without going through themainstream. During the LDS
(39:59):
church, well, my grandma getsmurdered. She's getting older,
she's about to die. And they'relike, there's this prophecy
crap, we got to do somethingabout it. And they went in and
they took the temple covenantsand opened their own endowment
house. And so there is anendowment house now that they go
through and do their owngarments, their own temple come
(40:21):
in and sit on Washingtonanointing their own ceilings,
but that wasn't how itoriginated, it was that we were
supposed to be in tandem.
Really, it is that a UBpolygamists keeps keep polygamy
alive. And then the church doeseverything else, the
missionaries, the temple, allthose other things, that's a
(40:43):
whole Church's responsibility.
And then they're supposed tolive polygamy. So it's changed.
I mean, even they even polygamyhas changed so much to kind of
accommodate where the church hasdropped stuff off, where the
church has no longer practice,or what the rules of the church
are aware of, they make itreally difficult for polygamous
people to join the church. Sothey do know, at one point,
(41:09):
wow, and what an interestingthing to have happened to allow
you to start questioning thatevent with your sister, which,
especially with the client workthat I do in the circles that I
walk in, there are a lot ofpeople who have memories,
similar to little girls havingtrauma with older men, and the
different rituals that takeplace. And, you know, when you
(41:34):
I'm like trying to decide if Iwant to touch on this or not, I
from what I understand. And thebelief that I hold is that at
some point, in this earth, therewas a belief, especially with
women, that they carry certainaspects with them that can be
taken and received forthemselves through sexual acts.
(41:55):
And the reality is, is sex is asacred act. It's a very sacred
act. And it has been taintedwith a lot of different
practices and a lot of differentreligions that try to control
how sex is done. And so it'sinteresting, I feel how, like,
any truth that we're talkingabout, it's, it's been taken and
twisted just a little bit, forwhatever reason for manipulation
(42:18):
for power, or for whatever itis. And this is one of those
pieces that I think has. I mean,it has been around for a long
time, sadly, and I believe stillaround in a lot of different
religions. And anyway, I just Myheart goes out to you and your
sister, like, I'm sure that hadto be a hard thing for her to
(42:41):
reconcile and probably beautifulas well, to have that memory
come up and move through thatprocess.
It's it's she, she has expressedto me that she feels bad that,
that it has changed my life somuch. And I tell her often how
grateful I am I, I am sograteful that not only am I able
(43:03):
to see more clearly, but thatI'm able to change my children's
lives in a better way. Also,it's been if you want to put in,
in Mormon context, a trueblessing in my life, that she
felt like she shared that withme and that I could change my
children's lives and my life,too. So I am so grateful that
(43:25):
she talked to me about it.
Absolutely. And I feel like thisimbalance of I hate to use the
word power, but that's the onlyword that's coming through this
imbalance of power between themasculine and the feminine is
coming more into balance. Andjust like with your experience
with your, what you're sharingwhat your sister is sharing of
that recognition, and thenmaking a different choice of,
(43:47):
hey, this isn't okay. And I'mnot choosing to be a part of a
religion that secretly condonesthis. And yeah, I don't know if
that one. That one's a. Thatone's a tough one. It's a tough
one. Yeah. So since you havestepped out of the Mormon
religion, how, how has your lifebeen since Do you have a
(44:08):
connection to spirituality?
Like, what? What is how long ishow long has it been now since
that you've stepped out?
It's been about well, so 2014What is that eight years now? So
it's been about eight years, I'dhave to say. I don't know if
I've ever necessarily lost myspirituality. I just dropped all
(44:33):
the construct and predetermineddefinitions of what it was. And
so that's been the journey thatI've constantly been on is
deciding whether other people'sdefinitions of what spirituality
is fits with me. And, andwhether I'm okay with that. And
(44:56):
I feel and I've always felt it'sa responsive ability for me as a
mother to teach my childrenthose same skills. And so I've
really gone the extra mile to,hopefully my kids will catch on
teaching to follow their innercompass and recognize when
(45:17):
things don't feel right are whenthey do. And to kind of follow
that and then let go of all theshame and the guilt that was
never sat well with me. Anddefinitely since I've been
outside of the church, have seenthe damage that shame and guilt
and secrecy does to society, toa family to me, to my children.
(45:40):
So that's something that Iactively try to help my children
recognize, and then not let thatbe in control. So name it
detainment, talk about what'shard, we have hard conversations
all the time. I think that thathas been beautiful for me and
for my family. There's no topicthat's, that is off that we
(46:04):
can't talk about, there'snothing that I'm not going to
touch on because it can make meuncomfortable or them
uncomfortable. And I thinkthat's been beautiful and very
fulfilling in our lives. And inour family life. Families. Life
is just being able to talk aboutwhatever is presented in front
of us and being aware, beingpresent and being willing to
(46:25):
explore and sit with it, sitwith the emotion, sit with the
experience, and be present andin it. And then I have felt like
living has helped me live a lifewith no regrets. One of the
biggest life changing thingsthat I hit me right at the right
(46:46):
time in my life was the secularBuddhist podcast was no Russia,
he had this I ate it up. Becausehe's in a mixed faith marriage,
I was worried I was going to bein mixed faith marriage because
I didn't know where my husbandstood. And now I'm ruining our
celestial family. Now, it'slike, my kids are gonna look at
(47:06):
me differently. They're notgoing to think I'm this
wonderful mom, that my husbandcould divorce me I could lose
all of my family. Yeah. And hereally helped me navigate. And
there's a story that I love,that he talks about, you know, a
Buddhist monk coming across ariver, and he built himself a
raft and made it across theriver. And then he was trying to
(47:27):
decide should he carry thisraft, now that he has mountains
to pass, or should he let it go.
And that's really how I'vetaught my life is or thought of
my life is I'm grateful forwhere I was when I was I don't
regret being Mormon, I don'tregret growing up polygamist. I
don't regret the kids I had, orthe choices I made with husband
(47:47):
I married or where I'm at,because I did the best I could
with the information I had atthe time. And I want that for my
children, I want them to nothave this like guilt and worry
and shame that they made thewrong choice, they did that. And
if you're present, and if you'reaware, and if you're in the
situation, then you can havethat too. Just this constant,
(48:09):
like I did the best I could withthe information I had now and be
okay.
And then giving yourself gracein that space. I just had a
conversation with someone thismorning about that self
forgiveness piece, and how whenwe carry guilt from the past
that shapes our future, and howimportant it is. And it hit me
(48:30):
on a deeper level of where arethe places within me of choices
that I've made in my life thathave created, you know,
repercussions, especially whenwe have children, right the
things that we choose asparents, we do our best. And
there's things that affect ourkids and affect our circles and
where have I not given myselfgrace and that forgiveness of I
was just doing the best withwith what I had. And I think
(48:54):
that's something for all of usto really sit with and kind of
take inventory of are the placesI'm still carrying guilt for the
choices that I've made or forthe choices that I did make
especially when you step outsideof religion we usually often
carry like that anger thatdisgust or that how could I have
chosen that? And it's like wellof course you chose that was
really beautiful for a time andnow you're choosing something
(49:15):
else and and I love all thepieces that you're sharing
because this ability that wehave now to teach our children
to ask the questions. What didyou say if it's uncomfortable?
What are what would what wasthat little phrase like? You
speak it? What was it that yousaid that you do with your kids?
Um, just follow their innercompass and you said
(49:38):
something else with like, if yousomething if you feel it, speak
it or that something was adiscomfort I didn't write it
down.
It was this comfort sit in thesituation sit at the emotion
Yeah. And be present in it. Idon't remember what I
said. I don't remember either.
I'll have to go back and I'llput it in the show notes. But
yeah, I loved what I loved withyou You said and I love that
(49:59):
you're having that opencommunication. And usually
towards the end of my podcast,I'd actually I wish we had like
another hour to just dive intosome of this because it's so fun
to chat with you as far as youryour knowledge and experience
that you've had, because theyfind it really interesting. But
one of the things that I askedmost podcast guests is what
would you recommend? What advicewhat one thing would you leave
(50:21):
to anyone that's listening thatmay be choosing out of any
religion that is struggling? Youknow, you spoke for two years,
you had tears almost every day,and you had emotions that you
even you were even sharing thatand that was a really hard
chapter for you and for so manythat stepped out of religion. So
what is that one piece of advicethat you would love
(50:44):
to offer? That it's okay to bescared? Yeah, I think religion
gives us a sense of comfort andjoy in that comfort and living
within the box that the religionhas created, but to remember
that the religion has alsocreated the sickness that you
(51:05):
wouldn't need their salvation ifyou didn't have their religion.
And, and that it's okay to bescared. And this new feeling of
uncomfortableness is okay, andyou will get to the other side.
And you will figure it out. It'sit's that it's like what if I'm
always going to sit in thisscared, worried place? And you
(51:30):
won't, but you don't know thatsitting in it? You don't you
just can't see it. And so it'sit's beautiful, and it's so
fulfilling on the other side? Mmhmm.
I would agree with that. Oh,beautiful. Is there anything
else you feel like you wouldlove to share?
No, not at this time, just thankyou so much for this
opportunity. It's been wonderfultalking to you.
(51:52):
Thank you. It's like I said, Iwish I had another hour. But I'm
being cautious at both of ourtimes, because I know we have a
few things coming up. But Iwould love to sit with a with
you with another an hour becauseone of the pieces is coming
through. And I mentioned this toyou before we even started
recording. There's a sacredfeminine piece that taps in with
all religion that has beensuppressed for so long, and it's
not. Anyway, I guess I'm justgoing to leave it there, you and
(52:15):
I are going to have a littleconversation after this. But
just to the listeners, the thewomen that have felt suppressed,
you know, when we're talkingabout there was a reason for
decisions that we've all made atcertain times in our life, it's
the same thing with thepatriarchy and the men that did
create and start this religionfor whatever reasons they were
doing. Really, they're probablydoing the best with what they
(52:36):
had at the time, even if itlooks and feels and whatever it
is, we have judgment around it.
And now we all get to make adifferent choice. And we get to
activate parts of us that havebeen suppressed for a long, long
time. And that is exciting tome. And that is also not at the
detriment of men. It's justbringing more balance into both
the masculine and the feminine.
(52:58):
There's room at the table forboth. And that's what I think
oftentimes some men can forgetis that there's there's room
enough for all of us. There'sthere's enough room, it's okay
to share the space.
Yeah, absolutely. Well,beautiful. Well, thanks again,
Liz. I so I really, reallyenjoyed this, and I appreciate
your time.
Yes, thanks again, I really, Ireally enjoyed it.
(53:22):
Wasn't that a powerful andreally interesting and
insightful interview, I reallyappreciate it a lot of the
things that she shared and a lotof pieces of the wisdom that she
gained, and just how she'sassisting her kids and having a
different experience. If youagain are looking to really lean
in more to your genius havetools to support you, and
(53:45):
network of people that are likeminded, I invite you to step
into my mastermind group thatstarted November 27, head to my
website, Amanda loveland.com,forward slash elevated
mastermind to join today. Andremember, my friends, you are
not alone. We are all in thistogether. And the more we lean
into our genius and awaken towho we are and who we've always
(54:08):
been, we will allow forremembrance to happen and an
unlocking of these pieces withinus that we didn't even know. And
then life gets to be full of thequestion of what is possible
instead of what are these thingshappening to me as much as
possible. What do I get tocreate what do you want to
create? So with all of thatsending you all so much live if
(54:30):
you feel the call to be when I'ma guest on my podcast, had to
might either message me on mysocial media pages or head to my
website, go to the podcast taband you'll see where to apply to
be a guest sending you off somuch love and have a beautiful
day.
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