Embark with us on a journey that challenges the very core of belief and identity, as Lynn Smith Gregory, a direct descendant of Joseph Smith, shares her profound transition from the Mormon Church to atheism. Our conversation reveals Lynn's confrontation with historical facts and the deep-seated questions that arose from her encounter with an atheist professor, shaking her lifelong beliefs to the core. It's not often we delve into such intimate revelations of faith and its unraveling; Lynn's forthcoming memoir, "We Were Smiths: Escaping the Shadow of Joseph Smith's Mormon Legacy," promises even deeper insights into her transformative experience.
The path of self-discovery and rebuilding one's life outside the familiar structures of religious communities can be tumultuous, marked by exclusion and the intense redefining of one’s identity. Our guests candidly discuss their personal stories, highlighting the critical role of therapeutic support and the courage it takes to forge new connections beyond the church's boundaries. As they share, we're reminded of the complexities that arise when leaving a faith, from the impact on family dynamics to the inner conflict one must navigate. The resilience and growth that emerge from such profound change are both inspiring and instructive for anyone on a similar journey.
In our final exploration, Lynn brings us into her world of navigating spiritual identity post-faith, demonstrating that life can be richer and more authentic when embracing the uncertainty of life's mysteries. From redefining family relationships to discovering a spirituality unbound by dogmatic beliefs, this episode is a testament to the strength of the human spirit and the power of intentional living. For those who've walked this path, or for the curious minds seeking to understand the resilience it requires, Lynn's story serves as a beacon of hope in the quest for personal truth and fulfillment.
If you would like to be a guest on this podcast or would like to support this work, visit www.leavingthechurchtofindgod.com where you can contact Melissa and or make a donation. Follow along my journey on IG at @authenticallymeli and find more in depth content on YouTube at Diary of an Authentic Life.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Aloha God Pod.
Today we have a very specialguest, Lynn Smith Gregory.
She grew up in Utah as one ofnine children in a devout Mormon
family.
Her great-great-uncle wasJoseph Smith, founder of the
Mormon Church.
At 19, she left the church andmoved to New York City,
eventually obtaining an MBA atNYU.
At NYU, After a 20-year careerin the tech industry, she left
(00:26):
to pursue writing full-time andhas attended the Iowa Summer
Writing Program and the BreadLoaf Writers Conference.
She lives in Savannah, Georgiawith her husband, Aloha Lynn.
Welcome to the Leaving theChurch to Find God podcast.
I appreciate you being here.
We always start theseconversations with where did it
first crack for you?
(00:46):
What brought you to leave thechurch?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It was actually a challenge by a professor of mine
when I went away to college mybackground is Mormon professor
of mine.
When I went away to college, mybackground is Mormon and I went
instead of going to BYU.
I graduated a year early fromhigh school.
So I said, well, I'll do a yearat this state school before I
(01:17):
transfer to BYU, which is likeHarvard for Mormons.
That's the school everybodywants to go to.
If you're a Mormon, and I had anatheist professor for my
creative writing class and I hadwritten a short story about my
(01:38):
parents arguing about going tochurch and he really liked it
and he asked me to read it outloud in class and then
afterwards he said so, you're abeliever.
And I said, oh yeah.
And he said, hmm, and that wasthe first time anybody, because
(01:58):
I grew up in Utah where themajority of people are Mormon.
That that was.
I realized that was a negativeto him and I was sort of taken
back and he said, well, Ichallenge you to come to my the
Bible is literature class nextsemester.
And I I realized that point,that I was going to have to
(02:22):
defend my faith, and I felttotally up for the challenge and
so instead of going home overthe break before the next
semester started, I asked toborrow books that were not in
the Utah libraries about theMormon church and Joseph Smith
(02:46):
in particular.
Now my maiden name is Smith, soI have to add here that Joseph
Smith is my great-great-uncle,my great-great-grandfather.
Samuel Smith was Joseph Smith'syounger brother and the first
convert to the Mormon church.
Younger brother and the firstconvert to the Mormon church,
(03:08):
and there have been fourgenerations of unbroken devotion
.
And so I started reading thesescholarly works on the Mormon
church, specifically FawnBrody's book no man Knows my
History, which is stillconsidered one of the definitive
books on the history of JosephSmith, and as I turned the pages
(03:32):
I was in shock and I discoveredfor the first time context for
religion.
I realized the atmosphere thatJoseph Smith grew up in some of
his background activities beforehe became a prophet, and I saw
(03:54):
the evolution of this young maninto becoming a religious figure
and rather than a 14-year-oldboy who had been approached by
Jesus and God and said you needto start your own church because
none of them are true.
(04:15):
And all of a sudden thingsstarted falling into place.
Questions I'd had younger likewell, you know, he found these
plates of gold, which turned outto be the book of Mormon, right
(04:35):
in his backyard.
That's really convenient.
You know that that's where anancient civilization ended up
burying this record and it'ssupposedly the record of the
Native Americans who lived onthe continent.
But then I was reading about howhe used to make up stories
(04:58):
about Native Americans ancientcivilizations that devolved into
Native Americans as wecurrently experience them, when
(05:19):
Columbus came and I suddenly sawthings differently and I spent
the week just trapped in thelibrary, buried in these texts,
(05:46):
and I suddenly realized therewas a tipping point where I read
that he had copied the templeceremonies that were so sacred
and supposedly based on theceremonies in King Solomon's
temple from the Masons Cause hewas a free Mason and I just
didn't believe it anymore andwhat it was was not like.
Well, I guess I don't believeit.
It was like I realized I nolonger believed it and it came
(06:09):
as a shock to me because itwasn't a conscious decision that
I'd made.
It was a realization ofrecognizing the facts, and the
facts had told me a differentstory and the facts had told me
a different story, and thereason those books were
forbidden to read became obviousto me, and this was before the
(06:32):
Internet, so you could avoiddamaging information about the
Mormon church much more easilythan you can today.
(06:54):
And in typical 19-year-oldbehavior, I decided well, if
Joseph Smith was a fraud, maybethis whole idea of God is a
fraud too?
And became an atheist Just likethat, and became an atheist
Just like that.
I threw the baby out with thebathwater and I didn't realize
what I was closing the door on,and it created a kind of
(07:24):
existential angst.
Really, what is the meaning ofour lives on Earth if it's just
a random universe, an accident,a petri dish that suddenly had
the right combination ofingredients to create the world,
of ingredients to create theworld?
(07:45):
So it took me a while before Ichanged my perspective.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
And it was through a spiritual experience that I
realized I wasn't an atheistanymore.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Do you mind telling me about that experience?
Sure, even though I'll tell youa little bit about it, I cover
my story more extensively in mymemoir, which is currently being
shot to publishers as we speak.
It's called we Were SmithsEscaping the Shadow of Joseph
(08:38):
Smith's Mormon Legacy and it's astory of leaving the church.
My sister and I both left aboutthe same time for very
different reasons, and ourtrajectories ended up very, very
differently because of choicesthat we made younger, like.
Well, you know, he found theseplates of gold which turned out
(09:02):
to be the Book of Mormon, rightin his backyard.
That's really convenient.
You know that that's where anancient civilization ended up
burying this record and it'ssupposedly the record of the
Native Americans who lived onthe continent continent.
(09:23):
But then I was reading about howhe used to make up stories
about Native Americans, ancientcivilizations that devolved into
(09:48):
Native Americans as wecurrently experience them, when
Columbus came and I suddenly sawthings differently and I spent
the week just trapped in thelibrary buried in these texts
and I suddenly realized therewas a tipping point where I read
(10:08):
that he had copied the templeceremonies that were so sacred
and supposedly based on theceremonies in King Solomon's
temple from the Masons becausehe was a Freemason, and I just
didn't believe it anymore.
And what it was was not likewell, I guess I don't believe it
(10:32):
.
It was like I realized I nolonger believed it, and it came
as a shock to me because itwasn't a conscious decision that
I'd made.
It was a realization ofrecognizing the facts.
And the facts had told me adifferent story, and the reason
(10:54):
those books were forbidden toread became obvious to me.
And this was before theinternet, so you could avoid
damaging information about theMormon church much more easily
than you can today.
(11:15):
And in typical 19 year oldbehavior, I decided well, if
Joseph Smith was a fraud, maybethis whole idea of God is a
fraud too, and became an atheistJust like that.
I threw the baby out with thebathwater.
(11:39):
I didn't realize what I wasclosing the door on, and it
created a kind of existentialangst.
Really, what is the meaning ofour lives on Earth if it's just
(12:01):
a random universe, an accident?
If it's just a random universe,an accident, a Petri dish that
suddenly had the rightcombination of ingredients to
create the world?
So it took me a while before Ichanged my perspective, and it
(12:28):
was through a spiritualexperience that I realized I
wasn't an atheist anymore.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Do you mind telling me about that experience?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Sure, even though I'll tell you a little bit about
it.
I cover my story moreextensively in my memoir, which
is currently being shot topublishers as we speak.
It's called we Were SmithsEscaping the shadow of joseph
(13:08):
smith's mormon legacy, and it'sa story of leaving the church.
My sister and I both left aboutthe same time, for very
different reasons, and ourtrajectories ended up very, very
differently because of choicesthat we made.
I was struggling with themeaninglessness of life and I
(13:31):
was not able to outrun my past,the indoctrination.
I tried very hard.
I went to therapy, I readthings, science became my new
God, but it was somehowultimately unsatisfying and it
(13:54):
didn't answer questions aboutwell, where does love come from?
It shut the door on mystery.
Awe wonder, where does altruismcome from?
I wasn't happy and after acrisis between my husband and I,
(14:16):
I remember wishing that Ibelieved in something because I
didn't know where to go foranswers.
And I remember thinking I wishI could pray and I realized I
(14:36):
was in the posture of prayer,that in my unhappiness I had
sunk to the floor and was on myknees.
I had sunk to the floor and wason my knees and I didn't think
too much about it, but at thetime just recognized wow, full
(14:57):
circle here.
And then I had an experience ofa presence, wasn't it's very
(15:19):
hard to describe, and I was anatheist, so it was the last
(15:40):
thing I was expecting was thisfeeling, sudden being flooded
with this feeling of love,acceptance and awareness that
there was something beyondmyself.
And I remember saying out loudthis God, are you God?
Um, and I?
I didn't really get an answerto that question.
I just knew that if I madecertain changes in my life, that
(16:01):
I was going to be okay, andthat was to open up to the idea
of something bigger than myself.
And I was terrified.
That meant well, I'm going tohave to return to the Mormon
church.
It's so funny, the black andwhite thinking.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yes, yes, for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
If your only context of God is this, then it's hard
to open your mind to the idea ofwhat else it can be.
But that's the point at which Ibecame willing to look at other
(16:54):
definitions of the divine.
God still to this day, hasconnotations for me that are too
religious in nature.
I don't feel like it's a bigenough word to describe what I
felt Right.
It's too small and and I'm notsure that I could say what I
(17:23):
believe now exactly it's hard toput into words, but it is a and
it's a mystery to me, but it'snot one that I feel like I need
(17:43):
to solve.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah, I feel the same way.
I get that, oh really.
Yeah, just like being in theexperience is more than I could
have ever imagined and that'sfull enough.
It's just constantly like Idon't want to put definition on
it because then it stops thereat the definition and I just
love the infiniteness of source,energy or or whatever we want
(18:11):
to call it.
Like that it constantly expandsand I learn more and I grow
deeper and more connected andlike I don't ever want to define
that because I don't ever wantit to stop evolving Right and I
really realize that words areonly pointers to direct us to
(18:36):
what the experience is.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
They can't define the experience.
They do the best job they can,but some things are beyond words
and this is one of those kindsof experiences.
So I learned how to meditate.
I was very interested infinding a path back to that
(19:02):
state of euphoria, bliss, andlooked at different formal
religions, buddhism particularly.
With my meditation practice Iwas looking at, you know,
(19:23):
different types, differentstyles of meditation, but
ultimately I'm put off by a lotof what organized religion
involves and the differencebetween spirituality and
(20:13):
religion for me is thatspirituality is much more
personal, specific ideologyrules that define beliefs for
everyone in the group and, afterhaving myself defined in the
Mormon church in ways that weredamaging, the last thing I was
interested in was someone elsedefining my relationship with
God.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, I get that.
Yeah, so when you left I knowyou were mentioning earlier, you
were talking about theindoctrinate not being able to
outrun the indoctrination, and Iget that on a personal level,
because I feel like I've kind ofbeen through a similar
experience.
I moved 6,000 miles away toHawaii instead of dealing with
it, but then, 20 years later,I'm like, oh wait, this is still
(20:54):
completely ruling my life andthe decisions that I make and
the way I feel about myself andthe way I feel about other
people, and you know just somany things.
So I just would love to hearwhat you're thinking about
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
I did the same thing.
I tried a geographic.
You know I moved to New YorkCity.
It's about as far awayphysically and experientially as
you can get from.
You know, utah is quite wonder,bread, baby and um.
(21:28):
You know the diversity, meltingpot, uh, of ideas and people
and uh, colors and uh was huge,a huge shift, and I thought I
(21:49):
could shed my skin like a snakeand come out the other side with
this move.
And, like your experience, Ifound that anything that I had
not consciously brought up anddealt with was running my life
(22:11):
and I had experiences of justhow long the deconstructing
process is.
It takes years and it takesbeing in a variety of situations
, I think, to see what's stillactive.
(22:33):
It's like peeling an onion youget through one layer and you
think, okay, I'm done.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
And then there's another layer a deeper layer.
Yeah, did you find um thatyou're leaving?
Um created a schism in yourfamily because that was a huge
(23:04):
you know my experience you knowit hadn't.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Because I haven't.
I'm not going to say I washiding, I just kind of like left
it all behind and was likethat's not me, I'm going to
where I can be.
Me came here, you know, andI've been my own journey that
I'm not going to get all the wayinto but, like you know,
through different spiritualpractices and like in the whole
new age world and likeeverything until I've, you know,
found myself where I am now.
(23:27):
But so it wasn't public, likeit was just me doing my own
thing 6,000 miles away.
Nobody knew.
I'm in a different time zone,different life, different
friends, different people.
And it knows that I'm not inchurch, but just kind of like
never bothered with it, like Ifelt like my whole life was
consumed by the church for thefirst 20 years, that I didn't
(23:52):
want to be the church girl orthe anti-church girl.
I just didn't want to beinvolved with the church.
I just was living my own life,doing my own thing, own thing.
But since I started thispodcast and I've been writing
this book and like being morepublic about my experience and
my feelings, now I'mexperiencing those things that I
(24:13):
would have experienced 20 yearsago.
Interesting, yeah, so um, yeah,a lot of people that I used to
feel seen by and close to theyjust can't help themselves but
send me religious stuff all thetime online and trying to
convert me and all of that whichis really dehumanizing.
Yeah, you know, I still haven'theard a word from my mom about
(24:38):
it.
I'm assuming either she knowsor she doesn't know and she
likes to look away from thingsthat she doesn't like.
So we're just going to leave itat that.
But other I've had some familymembers secretly kind of come
behind the scenes and say I'mproud of you and thank you for
doing this and this is so needed.
And then the other ones arelike you know, of course, I'm
going to hell and I'm hereticand blah, blah, blah.
You know what I mean.
(24:58):
so I'm just trying from all thispeace, joy and happiness I'm
experiencing over here.
But, yeah, I'm really startingto see this.
So I'd really love to talk morebecause I know you have a lot
of experience with this and thatyou touch on this in your book
about like setting boundarieswith family and navigating these
(25:20):
different relationships.
So you know, people who areestranged from their families,
like leaving the religion.
You know, what would you, whatwould you say to that?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
When I left, I was the real divide in my family, a
polarization between the mormonsand the heretics, and it we
scattered.
When my parents divorced, myfather ultimately, uh, for a
(26:08):
couple of different reasons, uh,very significant reasons, uh
also ended up pulling away fromthe church.
He never left, but he stoppedbecome being active and that was
enough for my parents.
It created a divide between myparents that could they couldn't
(26:30):
reconcile and they divorcedafter 28 years of marriage.
And it really put my familyclearly into two camps those
aligned as Mormons, with mymother and because my mother was
all about doubling down then,you know, more committed than
(26:52):
ever to her faith and theheretics, which were exploring
lots of different possibilitiesto define spirituality or God.
And it took a crisis in ourfamily and I'm not going to go
(27:14):
into it here, but that crisis itwas a secret that we didn't
know about and when that came tolight, luckily, my family
(27:35):
decided that family therapymight be helpful, because we
were geographically andemotionally at that point quite
distant and hadn't seen eachother in a couple of years,
maybe five years, and afterbeing a very, very tight plan.
(28:00):
So everybody was kind of offdoing their own thing and we
decided to gather once a yearfor a couple of days of family
therapy and a reunion, andfamily therapy helped us
(28:22):
understand that a lot of whatour issues were were semantic,
that we were more alike than wewere different.
When you really got through allof it, we loved our kids, we
wanted to be good parents, wecared about the human race, we
(28:48):
had values that were verysimilar, an awareness that there
(29:11):
was a possibility that we coulddialogue more respectfully and
more um be more open aboutallowing everyone to have their
own path.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
And that is not too typical no, it's not uh in a
mormon family initiated this andhow did you get everyone on
board?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
uh, like I said, it was a crisis that was that
shocked the family to its coreand that was enough to, I think,
make people aware that weneeded to do something.
(29:53):
Or we might as well just sayyou know, we're not a family
anymore and everybody go theirown separate ways.
I also think that thenon-Mormons had all gotten some
therapy of some sort, both toleave to learn how to live with
(30:16):
deconstructing their experiencein the church, but also just
personal issues.
There was some alcohol andaddiction issues, and those
12-step programs are incrediblyhelpful for raising your
awareness and giving you sometools.
(30:38):
But it was tough going.
We, even today, don't discussreligion or politics.
It's sort of just a tacitagreement across the board.
We agree to disagree, butsometimes you know assumptions
(31:06):
are made.
For example, you know whenwe're at a family gathering, you
know the Mormons are the oneswho bless the food because
they're the religious.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Because they're talking to God right.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
They've got the direct.
Line.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
And it's the subtle little things and they don't.
The Mormons don't understandwhy we might be offended that
we're not included in.
Well, dirk, would you, you knowmy brother, would you like to
offer a blessing?
You know that wouldn't do itfor them.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Oh, I do yes.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
And so it's.
It's not easy and I think weare very careful and it still
feels a little fragile at times,but most of us now at this
(32:13):
point have had individualtherapy and most of us now at
this point have had individualtherapy and that is, I mean,
(32:51):
worth its weight in gold interms of soul to the devil and I
was going to be in outerdarkness forever, or my mother
chose to believe that eventuallyI would return, which she
maintained for the next 30 yearsuntil she died.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, my mom is still there too, uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah and so, but I realized that I had to honor
each person's way of handlingthe situation and not judge it
too much, because we alsorealize that we don't control
(33:39):
anybody else, and so my parentsattempts to control us and make
us into fine upstanding Mormonmembers had failed.
And so you know, when you runout of options, you sometimes
(34:06):
can turn to something morehealthy, which is tolerance,
acceptance and love, acceptanceand love and we, we really focus
.
I think our motto is we're morealike than we are different and
(34:26):
try to find the common groundyeah so we we had family
reunions after after that, wherewe finally dropped family
therapy and just got togetherfor three or four days at some
location.
We took turns running thefamily reunion and the stories
(34:56):
became more like black humor.
You know remember when we didthis and how awful that was, um,
and we avoided things thatwould create tension or issues
(35:18):
between us.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, you're just going to leave the elephant in
the corner, huh.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Well, there's no way for it to be resolved.
Yeah, I mean, the Mormons seetheir way as absolute truth, and
I would say, some of mybrothers and sisters in their
respective spiritual paths maybefeel more like that, even
though I think the heretics tendto have a more inclusive idea
(35:52):
of a spiritual path, that thereare many paths up the mountain
to god, whereas the mormons knowthat there is only one, theirs.
Yeah, and that's how do you?
There's there's no compromisein in viewing it, you know, from
a different perspective.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
So I'm curious, because you come from this
legacy.
I deal with this a lot in myfamily because my grandparents
were the pastors of our church.
But they were also very goodpeople, like they were just very
loving, kind people who gave usa lot of values and things that
were good.
Now there's also a shadow sideto that, like there is to
anything that you know a lot ofenmeshment, a lot of unhealthy
(36:37):
family bonds, a lot of guilt andshame and like obligation and
those kinds of things which youknow.
Those who haven't deconstructedcan't really quite see that.
And so I deal with a lot ofthis like family legacy, like
I'm ruining the family legacy,like it's their job to uphold
the family legacy, like I'mruining the family legacy, like
it's their job to uphold thefamily legacy.
(36:58):
Like there's this enmeshment.
They can't separate mygrandparents as these two human
people who had all sides fromthis legacy of the church.
So I know you have that evendeeper, going as far back in
your history.
How did that show up for youand how did you navigate it?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
back in your history.
How did that show up for youand how did you navigate it?
Boy, I can I'm nodding my headhere because I can completely
relate, um the sense I mean.
The mantra in my family wasyou're a Smith, um, you know, I
E make me proud.
You know, ie make me proud.
Don't shame the family.
(37:42):
There was a lot Embodied in thatstatement and it wasn't.
They were also high achievers.
You know, my father came from afamily where all of his
brothers had been student bodypresident.
They were all Eagle Scouts.
They all went on missions forthe Mormon church.
There was an expectation to bebetter than because you had been
(38:09):
.
You were special, you weresingled out, you had been
blessed by God, and so you wereheld to a higher standard and in
everything.
And that perfectionism was a bigpart of my experience of
(38:31):
dismantling how much came fromfamily and how much came from
the church, because we'reinstructed to be perfect, as
your father in heaven is perfect, as Jesus is perfect, and yet
in therapy I'm learning thatit's okay not to be perfect, you
(38:58):
know.
So you have.
You really see where they comeinto conflict.
And yeah, it was hard and itwas also fairly public, which is
one of the reasons I left Utahwas not to shame my family and
(39:18):
my cousins and aunts and uncleswith being a sinner.
And the Mormon church is sointimately integrated with
(39:40):
community there they don't referto it as the Mormon church or
the Church of Jesus Christ ofLatter-day Saints.
It's the church.
Nobody bothers to preface itbecause it is the norm, is the
norm, and so, um, it wasn'tuntil I left that I could even
(40:08):
see it a little more objectively, uh, through, uh, the rear view
mirror.
But, um, like I said, uh, itcaught up with me all the
indoctrination and especiallythe role for women in Utah.
(40:33):
In the Mormon church, you arehonored for being a mother, that
is, they call it even themother of Zion issue.
There are really high rates ofdepression for Mormon women in
(40:59):
Utah, one of the highest in thecountry.
They have the highest rate ofantidepressant use in the
country, but their depressionrates are extremely high, and
I've written a blog, um, whichyou can find on my website, uh,
which is justlynnsmithgregorycom.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
I'll link it in the description as well.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
About why that is the case and there is.
It's such a patriarchal society.
You don't see women inleadership positions.
You don't see women inleadership positions you don't
see women in, and the onlyreally available option,
(41:44):
regardless of your desires oryour inclination, is wife and
mother.
And that's really limiting andthat's really limiting.
There's also a sort of toxicpositivity about putting a happy
face on everything.
(42:06):
The psychologist explained itas the well, if I'm struggling
and my neighbor across thestreet, who's also a Mormon, has
three more kids than I do andshe seems to be doing great,
(42:28):
what am I doing wrong?
And so it's very hidden.
The struggles are hidden.
It's like there's somethingwrong with me which is
internalized, and one of thethings that I realized was that
it was never okay to expressanger.
(42:50):
As a woman, you're supposed tobe nice, you're supposed to be
nice, you're supposed to besweet, you know, and you're not
supposed to be ambitious,selfish, want things other than
what the church wants for you,let alone to have a say in
(43:10):
things and even the templeceremonies and stuff.
I mean, men hold the priesthoodin the Mormon church, which is
the power to act in God's name,not women.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
And it's just in every single part of your life,
and it happens at an age whenyou are so young and I
personally think we're heldhostage to the view of the world
that we're born into until wetake it apart, and it's what we
(43:46):
filter everything through.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Yes, yes.
And when that filter is at itscore, you are born unworthy and
sinful.
Wow, that's what the worldlooks like.
That's what the world lookslike, no matter what you do.
Of course, you feel wrong orlike there's something wrong
with me or I'm unlovable orwhatever, because that's
literally what we're taught isthe basis of our creation, right
(44:11):
?
Speaker 2 (44:12):
And you were created in sin and you have to be saved,
mm.
Hmm, yeah, it's a littledifferent, it's like a real
loving God huh.
No, it's like who wants him?
The petulant, narcissist God.
I was younger that this idea ofGod.
(44:38):
You know that there werecertain things you could do that
were unforgivable and I thoughtwhat could one of my kids do?
Right, that would beunforgivable.
I couldn't imagine it.
And I thought and it was adangerous thought to have that,
well, if I'm capable offorgiving them, you know what's
(45:03):
wrong with God, you know, andthat was quickly squashed.
I don't know how questions werehandled in your experience in a
religious setting, but theywere all well.
You don't need to know that nowand it will all be explained in
(45:23):
the hereafter, and just putthat on the shelf, right, you
know that Well for me, it wasmore like the devil is talking
to you.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
We need to pray so that those demons or whatever,
don't you know, possess you andovertake your mind and your soul
, and you know that kind ofthing.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Yeah, yeah, there was always a real sense of danger
that you know the devil wasworking overtime to sway you to
his ways and that you had to beeternally vigilant, maintain
(46:25):
their I was going to say control, but their homogenous nature is
churches is not a Sunday thing,it's an all week thing.
I mean every single day of theweek there is something going on
at the church.
There is something going on atthe church Monday's family home
evening, which is a churchscripted lesson, you know.
Tuesday is the young men andwomen's you go back to church
for that.
(46:45):
You know.
Wednesday is choir practice andblah, blah, blah.
Thursday is primary, where thelittle kids get educated and
stuff, and then there'spriesthood meetings and Relief
Society meetings.
So it's really becomes a veryinsular bubble.
And you know BYU is so desiredso that you can go to a
(47:13):
university setting and meetother Mormons at a time at which
you're picking a future spouse.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah, yeah, pretty much.
Yeah, I grew up Pentecostal, soit's very similar.
You know, you go to the Biblecollege as a woman so that you
can find your husband.
You can find your preacherhusband, which is the dream,
right, right, or like mypersonal nightmare, but it's
sold as a dream.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
And did the cracks happen early for you, and were
they sudden?
Speaker 1 (48:04):
Was it a sudden shift or was it spirits contacting me
?
But I didn't understand at thetime.
I thought they were demonsbecause that was the only
association I had for spiritsoutside of God and angels.
Yeah, so that scared me a lot.
So there was, I bought in, Idid go in 100% for a very long
time, but there was always thispart of me that I knew existed
(48:29):
and that I knew had a purpose,even though I had been convinced
at that time that it wasdemonic or whatever.
Like that was just this part ofme that didn't believe it.
And I feel like you know, 90%of me was like, yes, I'll enter
whatever.
But that was that 10%, justkind of hiding in the background
, waiting for the opportunityand what's actually you know for
(48:52):
the opportunity and what'sactually you know.
To be completely candid, for meit was cannabis.
I was so afraid to think ofanything outside of what I've
been taught.
I was so afraid that I would goto hell.
I was so afraid I woulddisappoint God.
I couldn't even allow myself tothink those things.
But when I would use cannabis,it would open up my mind and all
the things that I already knew,I couldn't deny them anymore.
(49:12):
I couldn't deny.
And so it was a gradual of thatof me getting all this
understanding that I already hadand being like, okay, this
isn't a mistake, this, what I'mhearing right now, what I'm
experiencing right now, this ismore real than anything I've
heard in those in those fourwalls, and there was no denying
it for me.
So the me so the.
It was sort of gradual, butlike I was yeah one, I'm very
(49:36):
much that way once the veil islifted, once I see something I
can't unsee it, I can't pretendanymore, I can't go back.
So, yeah, it's like the end, orlocked working on.
You know, in therapy I'm likestill undoing the indoctrination
, part of it.
But as far as the doctrine Ileft that long time it was, it
was uh, it was just a naturaltransition.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah right, yeah, yeah, interesting, and it's
interesting the what's happening, uh, with psilocybin and mental
health right now in terms ofways that we can get, you know,
(50:22):
unlock our brain from itsindoctrinated, hardwired almost
ways of thinking to be more opento um other ideas.
But I mean, I have been verysurprised at how um deep the
(50:45):
indoctrination went.
I I've been out of the churchfor decades now and I found
myself several times surprisedat situations that I didn't
think would trigger me.
That triggered me.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
Yeah, I get that.
Like you said, it's an onion,it's just the layers, and you're
like, oh, I thought I had dealtwith that.
Oh, here's a deeper layer, yay,so do you still have family
members that are leaving, likethe church, or is it just kind
of done who's in is in and who'sout is out?
How does that uh?
Speaker 2 (51:24):
I yeah, it's been only in the last couple of years
that several people have loved.
So one was when my sister's son, who was a beloved member of
her big family.
She was a heavy-duty Mormon.
(51:46):
Nine kids and one of her boysannounced came out as gay.
Well, the Mormon church isquite homophobic.
I mean they say out of one sideof their mouth that you know,
(52:06):
we love everybody, but they arecan't hold the priesthood, they
can't really basicallyparticipate in any way.
And they have participated.
The church has participated inSuggesting that kids go to
(52:29):
conversion therapy and stuff.
So it's pretty homophobic.
And he is just the kindest,gentlest, most peace-loving soul
and adored in that family andthat just was a river she
(52:52):
couldn't cross.
She was like any church thatthinks that he doesn't belong
and isn't as valued a member ofsociety or our religious
organization.
There's something wrong thereand that was what triggered her
(53:14):
um decision to leave and all ofher kids followed suit except
one.
Wow, so yeah, sometimes ittakes something like that um,
others had, um uh got.
(53:35):
One of my sister-in-laws gotbreast cancer and had a
spiritual experience and she hadbeen questioning the mormon
church and had a spiritualexperience and for it confirmed
that religion.
You know they were.
That's just the words peopleuse to describe what I'm
(53:57):
experiencing, and it doesn't.
It doesn't have the kind offormal boundaries that the
Mormon church had required.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
It sounds like there's some like generational
wounding and curses that arebeing broken in your family.
I love that, yeah, becausethere's not that death grip so
much.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
You know like there's a lot of parents who would have
stuck with the church not theirchild, unfortunately so yeah,
it's true, I I have a tremendousamount of respect because and
there there's a huge populationUnfortunately Utah has a very
high rate of gay suicide.
Yeah, because there is a lot ofrejection and lack of
(54:44):
acceptance by devout Mormonmembers.
They absolutely see it as a sinand, um, you know, can't get
past it, um, yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
What, what, what advice would you give to
somebody who's leaving thechurch or who has a family
member Like what ways do yousupport your family when this is
happening?
Or what ways do you supportyour family when this is
happening, or what ways do youfind that have been helpful for
people who are deconstructing?
Speaker 2 (55:17):
Right, right, it's a great question.
I think giving yourselfpermission to take time to fully
absorb and define how you feelbefore interacting with your
family is a good suggestion.
Speaker 1 (55:38):
That's really great advice.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
I wouldn't go back to your family when you feel kind
of half-cocked.
Go ahead and give yourselfpermission to take as much time
as you need to fully decideexactly how you do feel and how
you want to handle the situationin terms of disclosing not
(56:03):
choosing not to disclose itwhatever.
I would suggest gettingtherapeutic support and a
supportive community.
Nowadays you can go onlineex-Mormon In fact, there's a
term Mormon blogosphere becausethere are so many ex-Mormons
(56:25):
online.
Um, uh, because often they'rein isolated situations uh, rural
towns or whatever or they don'tknow who to be it's safe to be
out loud about their doubts with, and so, um, find a supportive
community, preferably in person,but online, and also find some
(56:55):
friends who have your back.
So, because I underestimated theloss of family, the sense of
family, and I was fortunate thatI had one or two really good
(57:26):
friends who had my back at atime when I felt like it wasn't
safe to go home, you know, ortalk to my family about what I
was feeling and I think, havinga lot of compassion and grace
with your own deconstructingexperience, I wish somebody had
said this is going to take time,this is not an easy thing to do
(57:49):
.
Uh, an easy thing to do.
I thought that once Iunderstood that I'd been
brainwashed, ie indoctrinated um, you know when, when I was in
college, I I took psychologyclasses and learned about
brainwashing and group think andall that, and I thought, okay,
understand that I'm done.
(58:10):
All that.
And I thought, okay, understandthat I'm done.
And of course, that's just notthe way it works.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
And understanding things intellectually and
processing them emotionally aretwo different things yeah, yeah,
I get that completely,completely, um, yeah,
understanding it intellectuallyand then realizing oh wait, it's
still.
It's still hanging out, it'sstill hanging out over here.
(58:37):
Um, what do you feel?
Like I?
I know for me like there waslike a a huge loss, and wouldn't
say a loss of identity, butlike what, why?
You know, like, with the churchyou're given so much purpose,
you have this like this is whatyou're doing, this is what
you're here for, this is likewhatever and I know I have, you
(59:00):
know, found my own footing inthat now, and I'm very clear
about who I am and my enjoymentof the world, which is why I
believe I'm here.
But what do you?
How did you reestablish youridentity or build a new identity
for yourself?
Speaker 2 (59:17):
That's a such a great question because it was such a
huge part of my identity.
Being a Smith was being relatedto Joseph Smith made me special.
I was the envy of all my friendsyou know in the church because
of the way they revere bloodlineconnections, and it was being a
(59:49):
Mormon and being a Smith Mormonwas everything to me and I
didn't expect to feel the loss,especially as my family was
imploding at the same time feltvery adrift, unrooted, and it
(01:00:11):
took quite a while before I wasable to articulate, really took
until I had my spiritualexperience myself that I felt
safe enough.
(01:00:32):
Luckily, I also married a manvery, and our relationship was
very much unlike my parents,which was very patriarchal in
nature and I saw my mother ascompletely powerless and she was
the martyr and he was themartyr and he was the um, uh,
(01:00:53):
severe patriarch and he anchoredme, um, and I also saw a
different way of being umthrough the kind of general
acceptance that he gave me thatwasn't based on perfection or
(01:01:20):
performance, but kind of a lovethat was just because he loved
me, I mean, and that was a wholenew concept, uh, that kind of
love and so and so when Istarted, when we had our own
(01:01:40):
family, I was all about you knowum doing it differently.
Yeah, of course that'schallenging.
Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Yeah, when it's wired into your brain wired into your
brain yeah, like it likes toshow up.
Yeah, there's some things thatI realized that always I felt
different or awkward or weird,and I realized now it was just
these, these beliefs that werein me, that I was different or,
like you said, special orwhatever.
(01:02:11):
And a lot of judgment and a lotof yeah, just be feeling on the
outside of things.
So I get that yeah, to havereal love.
Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
It shows you what the other isn't you know that's a
great way to say it.
You know, when you have thereal deal, you recognize that
the other is fool's gold.
You know it's pretend it'sfool's gold.
Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
That's a great way to put it.
Yeah, yeah, and I always saythat about like figuring out who
you are, rebuilding identity orwhatever.
For me, it's like before youcan do that, you have to figure
out who you're not.
Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
Yes, that's so true.
I know that's not who I am,right judgmental, critical, uh,
intolerant arrogance yeah uh-huh, uh, convinced I'm the only
person with the right answeryeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
it's hard on relationships, isn't it when you
think you know everything?
Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Yeah, and you know it was weird coming to terms with
the fact that there wassomething that was so safe about
the certainty of Mormon answers.
I didn't realize how safe thatfelt.
(01:03:55):
Mormons had an answer foreverything.
I didn't have any answers foranything, so it was you know
just such a huge flip of theswitch and, you know, I missed
that certainty and I tried tofill it with being a certain
(01:04:17):
atheist.
Yeah, these people, they justcan't, you know, accept the fact
that it's a random universe andthey need the idea of God
because, you know so, I was justas certain and arrogant, and in
my position as an atheist, youknow, than my brothers and
(01:04:39):
sisters were with their you knowdogma, until I was broken open
(01:05:02):
with the spiritual experiencethat I realized that it's all
about connection, acceptance,forgiveness.
Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that In all of thisjourney and everything that
you've been through up untilthis point, where would you say
that you are now?
Would?
Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
you say that you are now, I would say that I'm no
longer in active search mode.
I think for quite a while I wasconstantly reading the latest
book on spirituality that cameout.
A sister and my father reallygot into A Course in Miracles,
(01:05:54):
which is a spiritual belief, apath, and I looked at that and
it didn't fit for me exactly.
So I liked a lot of theconcepts of it, but I didn't
(01:06:16):
want to be defined down.
But I felt I was.
I was pressed to continue toexplore, uh, search mode.
I was in the self-help sectionof the bookstore a lot, yeah,
yeah, and whether it wasconversation with God, you know
whether it's untethering my soulor you know, whatever it was, I
(01:06:42):
was looking for.
The answers.
Go of the idea that there are,there is one answer.
Um was so free because now, um,now I can see.
Well, it looks like that's theanswer for you.
You know that's wonderful, or Idon't need to have the answer
(01:07:05):
defined.
I am now content with themystery.
I don't need to know how it allworks, love, but, um, it
influences my life in a way thatmakes me I feel a better person
.
My mantra in the morning when Iget up I set my intention and
(01:07:43):
basically say let me be the faceof kindness in every encounter.
Today, that's, it's so simplenow, whereas before.
How does it all work?
What happens after we die?
Do we retain consciousness?
Are we a drop in the ocean?
(01:08:03):
You know, I wanted all theanswers and I don't know if it's
just because I'm getting olderthat I'm more satisfied with not
having them, but it doesn'ttrouble me.
Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Yeah, yeah, I get that.
Yeah, I feel like that need forthe answers, that need for like
something definite, is a resultof the indoctrination, because,
like you said, we're giventhese set of rules and if you
follow these rules then you'regoing to be OK.
And so I feel like I know withme, like my brain is always
grasping for a definite andthat's my newest thing that I've
(01:08:36):
been working on within myselfis just like what do you feel?
Like you get to decide what theanswer is.
You get to choose what theanswer is.
There is no definite.
What is right for you, whatfeels in line with you, um,
which also shows me that, likein the choices that I make, the,
the, the attributes that I hadgiven to the church about myself
(01:08:56):
, the loving, kindness and andall of my spiritual connection
and so many things that I hadgiven credit to the church for
now that I make decisions justbased on who, what feels
authentic to me, I realized thatthose things were just
authentic to me.
Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
It didn't belong to the church, you know, it's just
interesting that you were ableto make that distinction and
claim those for yourself it'sonly been recent, but yeah, it's
been a blessing for sure.
Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Wonderful, that's wonderful yeah, yeah yeah, so I
um, I'd like to end with what.
What advice would you give withsomebody who's thinking about
deconstructing, with somebodywho's just starting to have
those thoughts about leaving?
What would you give them?
Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
You know, I would say be compassionate with yourself.
This is a painful, sometimesprocess.
It feels uncertain, it's goingto take time and reach out and
for the resources and supportthat you need on your journey
(01:10:04):
and we all need those.
There's no way to do this alone, and that's one of the gifts is
finding community, a differentkind of community, outside of
the church community that yougrew up in.
Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful.
I appreciate your time, lynn,and for everybody listening, I
will be posting all of the linksand all the information on how
to follow along her journey inthe description of the show, as
well as the blog post thatfollows a couple of weeks later.
So, thank you, thank you somuch.
Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Thank you, it was a pleasure talking with you.
Aloha God Pod.
Today we have a very specialguest, Lynn Smith Gregory.
She grew up in Utah as one ofnine children in a devout Mormon
family.
Her great-great-uncle wasJoseph Smith, founder of the
Mormon Church.
At 19, she left the church andmoved to New York City,
eventually obtaining an MBA atNYU.
At NYU, After a 20-year careerin the tech industry, she left
(00:26):
to pursue writing full-time andhas attended the Iowa Summer
Writing Program and the BreadLoaf Writers Conference.
She lives in Savannah, Georgiawith her husband, Aloha Lynn.
Welcome to the Leaving theChurch to Find God podcast.
I appreciate you being here.
We always start theseconversations with where did it
first crack for you?
(00:46):
What brought you to leave thechurch?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It was actually a challenge by a professor of mine
when I went away to college mybackground is Mormon professor
of mine.
When I went away to college, mybackground is Mormon and I went
instead of going to BYU.
I graduated a year early fromhigh school.
So I said, well, I'll do a yearat this state school before I
(01:17):
transfer to BYU, which is likeHarvard for Mormons.
That's the school everybodywants to go to.
If you're a Mormon, and I had anatheist professor for my
creative writing class and I hadwritten a short story about my
(01:38):
parents arguing about going tochurch and he really liked it
and he asked me to read it outloud in class and then
afterwards he said so, you're abeliever.
And I said, oh yeah.
And he said, hmm, and that wasthe first time anybody, because
(01:58):
I grew up in Utah where themajority of people are Mormon.
That that was.
I realized that was a negativeto him and I was sort of taken
back and he said, well, Ichallenge you to come to my the
Bible is literature class nextsemester.
And I I realized that point,that I was going to have to
(02:22):
defend my faith, and I felttotally up for the challenge and
so instead of going home overthe break before the next
semester started, I asked toborrow books that were not in
the Utah libraries about theMormon church and Joseph Smith
(02:46):
in particular.
Now my maiden name is Smith, soI have to add here that Joseph
Smith is my great-great-uncle,my great-great-grandfather.
Samuel Smith was Joseph Smith'syounger brother and the first
convert to the Mormon church.
Younger brother and the firstconvert to the Mormon church,
(03:08):
and there have been fourgenerations of unbroken devotion
.
And so I started reading thesescholarly works on the Mormon
church, specifically FawnBrody's book no man Knows my
History, which is stillconsidered one of the definitive
books on the history of JosephSmith, and as I turned the pages
(03:32):
I was in shock and I discoveredfor the first time context for
religion.
I realized the atmosphere thatJoseph Smith grew up in some of
his background activities beforehe became a prophet, and I saw
(03:54):
the evolution of this young maninto becoming a religious figure
and rather than a 14-year-oldboy who had been approached by
Jesus and God and said you needto start your own church because
none of them are true.
(04:15):
And all of a sudden thingsstarted falling into place.
Questions I'd had younger likewell, you know, he found these
plates of gold, which turned outto be the book of Mormon, right
(04:35):
in his backyard.
That's really convenient.
You know that that's where anancient civilization ended up
burying this record and it'ssupposedly the record of the
Native Americans who lived onthe continent.
But then I was reading about howhe used to make up stories
(04:58):
about Native Americans ancientcivilizations that devolved into
Native Americans as wecurrently experience them, when
(05:19):
Columbus came and I suddenly sawthings differently and I spent
the week just trapped in thelibrary, buried in these texts,
(05:46):
and I suddenly realized therewas a tipping point where I read
that he had copied the templeceremonies that were so sacred
and supposedly based on theceremonies in King Solomon's
temple from the Masons Cause hewas a free Mason and I just
didn't believe it anymore andwhat it was was not like.
Well, I guess I don't believeit.
It was like I realized I nolonger believed it and it came
(06:09):
as a shock to me because itwasn't a conscious decision that
I'd made.
It was a realization ofrecognizing the facts, and the
facts had told me a differentstory and the facts had told me
a different story, and thereason those books were
forbidden to read became obviousto me, and this was before the
(06:32):
Internet, so you could avoiddamaging information about the
Mormon church much more easilythan you can today.
(06:54):
And in typical 19-year-oldbehavior, I decided well, if
Joseph Smith was a fraud, maybethis whole idea of God is a
fraud too?
And became an atheist Just likethat, and became an atheist
Just like that.
I threw the baby out with thebathwater and I didn't realize
what I was closing the door on,and it created a kind of
(07:24):
existential angst.
Really, what is the meaning ofour lives on Earth if it's just
a random universe, an accident,a petri dish that suddenly had
the right combination ofingredients to create the world,
of ingredients to create theworld?
(07:45):
So it took me a while before Ichanged my perspective.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
And it was through a spiritual experience that I
realized I wasn't an atheistanymore.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Do you mind telling me about that experience?
Sure, even though I'll tell youa little bit about it, I cover
my story more extensively in mymemoir, which is currently being
shot to publishers as we speak.
It's called we Were SmithsEscaping the Shadow of Joseph
(08:38):
Smith's Mormon Legacy and it's astory of leaving the church.
My sister and I both left aboutthe same time for very
different reasons, and ourtrajectories ended up very, very
differently because of choicesthat we made younger, like.
Well, you know, he found theseplates of gold which turned out
(09:02):
to be the Book of Mormon, rightin his backyard.
That's really convenient.
You know that that's where anancient civilization ended up
burying this record and it'ssupposedly the record of the
Native Americans who lived onthe continent continent.
(09:23):
But then I was reading about howhe used to make up stories
about Native Americans, ancientcivilizations that devolved into
(09:48):
Native Americans as wecurrently experience them, when
Columbus came and I suddenly sawthings differently and I spent
the week just trapped in thelibrary buried in these texts
and I suddenly realized therewas a tipping point where I read
(10:08):
that he had copied the templeceremonies that were so sacred
and supposedly based on theceremonies in King Solomon's
temple from the Masons becausehe was a Freemason, and I just
didn't believe it anymore.
And what it was was not likewell, I guess I don't believe it
(10:32):
.
It was like I realized I nolonger believed it, and it came
as a shock to me because itwasn't a conscious decision that
I'd made.
It was a realization ofrecognizing the facts.
And the facts had told me adifferent story, and the reason
(10:54):
those books were forbidden toread became obvious to me.
And this was before theinternet, so you could avoid
damaging information about theMormon church much more easily
than you can today.
(11:15):
And in typical 19 year oldbehavior, I decided well, if
Joseph Smith was a fraud, maybethis whole idea of God is a
fraud too, and became an atheistJust like that.
I threw the baby out with thebathwater.
(11:39):
I didn't realize what I wasclosing the door on, and it
created a kind of existentialangst.
Really, what is the meaning ofour lives on Earth if it's just
(12:01):
a random universe, an accident?
If it's just a random universe,an accident, a Petri dish that
suddenly had the rightcombination of ingredients to
create the world?
So it took me a while before Ichanged my perspective, and it
(12:28):
was through a spiritualexperience that I realized I
wasn't an atheist anymore.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Do you mind telling me about that experience?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Sure, even though I'll tell you a little bit about
it.
I cover my story moreextensively in my memoir, which
is currently being shot topublishers as we speak.
It's called we Were SmithsEscaping the shadow of joseph
(13:08):
smith's mormon legacy, and it'sa story of leaving the church.
My sister and I both left aboutthe same time, for very
different reasons, and ourtrajectories ended up very, very
differently because of choicesthat we made.
I was struggling with themeaninglessness of life and I
(13:31):
was not able to outrun my past,the indoctrination.
I tried very hard.
I went to therapy, I readthings, science became my new
God, but it was somehowultimately unsatisfying and it
(13:54):
didn't answer questions aboutwell, where does love come from?
It shut the door on mystery.
Awe wonder, where does altruismcome from?
I wasn't happy and after acrisis between my husband and I,
(14:16):
I remember wishing that Ibelieved in something because I
didn't know where to go foranswers.
And I remember thinking I wishI could pray and I realized I
(14:36):
was in the posture of prayer,that in my unhappiness I had
sunk to the floor and was on myknees.
I had sunk to the floor and wason my knees and I didn't think
too much about it, but at thetime just recognized wow, full
(14:57):
circle here.
And then I had an experience ofa presence, wasn't it's very
(15:19):
hard to describe, and I was anatheist, so it was the last
(15:40):
thing I was expecting was thisfeeling, sudden being flooded
with this feeling of love,acceptance and awareness that
there was something beyondmyself.
And I remember saying out loudthis God, are you God?
Um, and I?
I didn't really get an answerto that question.
I just knew that if I madecertain changes in my life, that
(16:01):
I was going to be okay, andthat was to open up to the idea
of something bigger than myself.
And I was terrified.
That meant well, I'm going tohave to return to the Mormon
church.
It's so funny, the black andwhite thinking.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yes, yes, for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
If your only context of God is this, then it's hard
to open your mind to the idea ofwhat else it can be.
But that's the point at which Ibecame willing to look at other
(16:54):
definitions of the divine.
God still to this day, hasconnotations for me that are too
religious in nature.
I don't feel like it's a bigenough word to describe what I
felt Right.
It's too small and and I'm notsure that I could say what I
(17:23):
believe now exactly it's hard toput into words, but it is a and
it's a mystery to me, but it'snot one that I feel like I need
(17:43):
to solve.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah, I feel the same way.
I get that, oh really.
Yeah, just like being in theexperience is more than I could
have ever imagined and that'sfull enough.
It's just constantly like Idon't want to put definition on
it because then it stops thereat the definition and I just
love the infiniteness of source,energy or or whatever we want
(18:11):
to call it.
Like that it constantly expandsand I learn more and I grow
deeper and more connected andlike I don't ever want to define
that because I don't ever wantit to stop evolving Right and I
really realize that words areonly pointers to direct us to
(18:36):
what the experience is.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
They can't define the experience.
They do the best job they can,but some things are beyond words
and this is one of those kindsof experiences.
So I learned how to meditate.
I was very interested infinding a path back to that
(19:02):
state of euphoria, bliss, andlooked at different formal
religions, buddhism particularly.
With my meditation practice Iwas looking at, you know,
(19:23):
different types, differentstyles of meditation, but
ultimately I'm put off by a lotof what organized religion
involves and the differencebetween spirituality and
(20:13):
religion for me is thatspirituality is much more
personal, specific ideologyrules that define beliefs for
everyone in the group and, afterhaving myself defined in the
Mormon church in ways that weredamaging, the last thing I was
interested in was someone elsedefining my relationship with
God.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, I get that.
Yeah, so when you left I knowyou were mentioning earlier, you
were talking about theindoctrinate not being able to
outrun the indoctrination, and Iget that on a personal level,
because I feel like I've kind ofbeen through a similar
experience.
I moved 6,000 miles away toHawaii instead of dealing with
it, but then, 20 years later,I'm like, oh wait, this is still
(20:54):
completely ruling my life andthe decisions that I make and
the way I feel about myself andthe way I feel about other
people, and you know just somany things.
So I just would love to hearwhat you're thinking about
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
I did the same thing.
I tried a geographic.
You know I moved to New YorkCity.
It's about as far awayphysically and experientially as
you can get from.
You know, utah is quite wonder,bread, baby and um.
(21:28):
You know the diversity, meltingpot, uh, of ideas and people
and uh, colors and uh was huge,a huge shift, and I thought I
(21:49):
could shed my skin like a snakeand come out the other side with
this move.
And, like your experience, Ifound that anything that I had
not consciously brought up anddealt with was running my life
(22:11):
and I had experiences of justhow long the deconstructing
process is.
It takes years and it takesbeing in a variety of situations
, I think, to see what's stillactive.
(22:33):
It's like peeling an onion youget through one layer and you
think, okay, I'm done.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
And then there's another layer a deeper layer.
Yeah, did you find um thatyou're leaving?
Um created a schism in yourfamily because that was a huge
(23:04):
you know my experience you knowit hadn't.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Because I haven't.
I'm not going to say I washiding, I just kind of like left
it all behind and was likethat's not me, I'm going to
where I can be.
Me came here, you know, andI've been my own journey that
I'm not going to get all the wayinto but, like you know,
through different spiritualpractices and like in the whole
new age world and likeeverything until I've, you know,
found myself where I am now.
(23:27):
But so it wasn't public, likeit was just me doing my own
thing 6,000 miles away.
Nobody knew.
I'm in a different time zone,different life, different
friends, different people.
And it knows that I'm not inchurch, but just kind of like
never bothered with it, like Ifelt like my whole life was
consumed by the church for thefirst 20 years, that I didn't
(23:52):
want to be the church girl orthe anti-church girl.
I just didn't want to beinvolved with the church.
I just was living my own life,doing my own thing, own thing.
But since I started thispodcast and I've been writing
this book and like being morepublic about my experience and
my feelings, now I'mexperiencing those things that I
(24:13):
would have experienced 20 yearsago.
Interesting, yeah, so um, yeah,a lot of people that I used to
feel seen by and close to theyjust can't help themselves but
send me religious stuff all thetime online and trying to
convert me and all of that whichis really dehumanizing.
Yeah, you know, I still haven'theard a word from my mom about
(24:38):
it.
I'm assuming either she knowsor she doesn't know and she
likes to look away from thingsthat she doesn't like.
So we're just going to leave itat that.
But other I've had some familymembers secretly kind of come
behind the scenes and say I'mproud of you and thank you for
doing this and this is so needed.
And then the other ones arelike you know, of course, I'm
going to hell and I'm hereticand blah, blah, blah.
You know what I mean.
(24:58):
so I'm just trying from all thispeace, joy and happiness I'm
experiencing over here.
But, yeah, I'm really startingto see this.
So I'd really love to talk morebecause I know you have a lot
of experience with this and thatyou touch on this in your book
about like setting boundarieswith family and navigating these
(25:20):
different relationships.
So you know, people who areestranged from their families,
like leaving the religion.
You know, what would you, whatwould you say to that?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
When I left, I was the real divide in my family, a
polarization between the mormonsand the heretics, and it we
scattered.
When my parents divorced, myfather ultimately, uh, for a
(26:08):
couple of different reasons, uh,very significant reasons, uh
also ended up pulling away fromthe church.
He never left, but he stoppedbecome being active and that was
enough for my parents.
It created a divide between myparents that could they couldn't
(26:30):
reconcile and they divorcedafter 28 years of marriage.
And it really put my familyclearly into two camps those
aligned as Mormons, with mymother and because my mother was
all about doubling down then,you know, more committed than
(26:52):
ever to her faith and theheretics, which were exploring
lots of different possibilitiesto define spirituality or God.
And it took a crisis in ourfamily and I'm not going to go
(27:14):
into it here, but that crisis itwas a secret that we didn't
know about and when that came tolight, luckily, my family
(27:35):
decided that family therapymight be helpful, because we
were geographically andemotionally at that point quite
distant and hadn't seen eachother in a couple of years,
maybe five years, and afterbeing a very, very tight plan.
(28:00):
So everybody was kind of offdoing their own thing and we
decided to gather once a yearfor a couple of days of family
therapy and a reunion, andfamily therapy helped us
(28:22):
understand that a lot of whatour issues were were semantic,
that we were more alike than wewere different.
When you really got through allof it, we loved our kids, we
wanted to be good parents, wecared about the human race, we
(28:48):
had values that were verysimilar, an awareness that there
(29:11):
was a possibility that we coulddialogue more respectfully and
more um be more open aboutallowing everyone to have their
own path.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
And that is not too typical no, it's not uh in a
mormon family initiated this andhow did you get everyone on
board?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
uh, like I said, it was a crisis that was that
shocked the family to its coreand that was enough to, I think,
make people aware that weneeded to do something.
(29:53):
Or we might as well just sayyou know, we're not a family
anymore and everybody go theirown separate ways.
I also think that thenon-Mormons had all gotten some
therapy of some sort, both toleave to learn how to live with
(30:16):
deconstructing their experiencein the church, but also just
personal issues.
There was some alcohol andaddiction issues, and those
12-step programs are incrediblyhelpful for raising your
awareness and giving you sometools.
(30:38):
But it was tough going.
We, even today, don't discussreligion or politics.
It's sort of just a tacitagreement across the board.
We agree to disagree, butsometimes you know assumptions
(31:06):
are made.
For example, you know whenwe're at a family gathering, you
know the Mormons are the oneswho bless the food because
they're the religious.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Because they're talking to God right.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
They've got the direct.
Line.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
And it's the subtle little things and they don't.
The Mormons don't understandwhy we might be offended that
we're not included in.
Well, dirk, would you, you knowmy brother, would you like to
offer a blessing?
You know that wouldn't do itfor them.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Oh, I do yes.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
And so it's.
It's not easy and I think weare very careful and it still
feels a little fragile at times,but most of us now at this
(32:13):
point have had individualtherapy and most of us now at
this point have had individualtherapy and that is, I mean,
(32:51):
worth its weight in gold interms of soul to the devil and I
was going to be in outerdarkness forever, or my mother
chose to believe that eventuallyI would return, which she
maintained for the next 30 yearsuntil she died.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, my mom is still there too, uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah and so, but I realized that I had to honor
each person's way of handlingthe situation and not judge it
too much, because we alsorealize that we don't control
(33:39):
anybody else, and so my parentsattempts to control us and make
us into fine upstanding Mormonmembers had failed.
And so you know, when you runout of options, you sometimes
(34:06):
can turn to something morehealthy, which is tolerance,
acceptance and love, acceptanceand love and we, we really focus
.
I think our motto is we're morealike than we are different and
(34:26):
try to find the common groundyeah so we we had family
reunions after after that, wherewe finally dropped family
therapy and just got togetherfor three or four days at some
location.
We took turns running thefamily reunion and the stories
(34:56):
became more like black humor.
You know remember when we didthis and how awful that was, um,
and we avoided things thatwould create tension or issues
(35:18):
between us.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, you're just going to leave the elephant in
the corner, huh.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Well, there's no way for it to be resolved.
Yeah, I mean, the Mormons seetheir way as absolute truth, and
I would say, some of mybrothers and sisters in their
respective spiritual paths maybefeel more like that, even
though I think the heretics tendto have a more inclusive idea
(35:52):
of a spiritual path, that thereare many paths up the mountain
to god, whereas the mormons knowthat there is only one, theirs.
Yeah, and that's how do you?
There's there's no compromisein in viewing it, you know, from
a different perspective.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
So I'm curious, because you come from this
legacy.
I deal with this a lot in myfamily because my grandparents
were the pastors of our church.
But they were also very goodpeople, like they were just very
loving, kind people who gave usa lot of values and things that
were good.
Now there's also a shadow sideto that, like there is to
anything that you know a lot ofenmeshment, a lot of unhealthy
(36:37):
family bonds, a lot of guilt andshame and like obligation and
those kinds of things which youknow.
Those who haven't deconstructedcan't really quite see that.
And so I deal with a lot ofthis like family legacy, like
I'm ruining the family legacy,like it's their job to uphold
the family legacy, like I'mruining the family legacy, like
it's their job to uphold thefamily legacy.
(36:58):
Like there's this enmeshment.
They can't separate mygrandparents as these two human
people who had all sides fromthis legacy of the church.
So I know you have that evendeeper, going as far back in
your history.
How did that show up for youand how did you navigate it?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
back in your history.
How did that show up for youand how did you navigate it?
Boy, I can I'm nodding my headhere because I can completely
relate, um the sense I mean.
The mantra in my family wasyou're a Smith, um, you know, I
E make me proud.
You know, ie make me proud.
Don't shame the family.
(37:42):
There was a lot Embodied in thatstatement and it wasn't.
They were also high achievers.
You know, my father came from afamily where all of his
brothers had been student bodypresident.
They were all Eagle Scouts.
They all went on missions forthe Mormon church.
There was an expectation to bebetter than because you had been
(38:09):
.
You were special, you weresingled out, you had been
blessed by God, and so you wereheld to a higher standard and in
everything.
And that perfectionism was a bigpart of my experience of
(38:31):
dismantling how much came fromfamily and how much came from
the church, because we'reinstructed to be perfect, as
your father in heaven is perfect, as Jesus is perfect, and yet
in therapy I'm learning thatit's okay not to be perfect, you
(38:58):
know.
So you have.
You really see where they comeinto conflict.
And yeah, it was hard and itwas also fairly public, which is
one of the reasons I left Utahwas not to shame my family and
(39:18):
my cousins and aunts and uncleswith being a sinner.
And the Mormon church is sointimately integrated with
(39:40):
community there they don't referto it as the Mormon church or
the Church of Jesus Christ ofLatter-day Saints.
It's the church.
Nobody bothers to preface itbecause it is the norm, is the
norm, and so, um, it wasn'tuntil I left that I could even
(40:08):
see it a little more objectively, uh, through, uh, the rear view
mirror.
But, um, like I said, uh, itcaught up with me all the
indoctrination and especiallythe role for women in Utah.
(40:33):
In the Mormon church, you arehonored for being a mother, that
is, they call it even themother of Zion issue.
There are really high rates ofdepression for Mormon women in
(40:59):
Utah, one of the highest in thecountry.
They have the highest rate ofantidepressant use in the
country, but their depressionrates are extremely high, and
I've written a blog, um, whichyou can find on my website, uh,
which is justlynnsmithgregorycom.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
I'll link it in the description as well.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
About why that is the case and there is.
It's such a patriarchal society.
You don't see women inleadership positions.
You don't see women inleadership positions you don't
see women in, and the onlyreally available option,
(41:44):
regardless of your desires oryour inclination, is wife and
mother.
And that's really limiting andthat's really limiting.
There's also a sort of toxicpositivity about putting a happy
face on everything.
(42:06):
The psychologist explained itas the well, if I'm struggling
and my neighbor across thestreet, who's also a Mormon, has
three more kids than I do andshe seems to be doing great,
(42:28):
what am I doing wrong?
And so it's very hidden.
The struggles are hidden.
It's like there's somethingwrong with me which is
internalized, and one of thethings that I realized was that
it was never okay to expressanger.
(42:50):
As a woman, you're supposed tobe nice, you're supposed to be
nice, you're supposed to besweet, you know, and you're not
supposed to be ambitious,selfish, want things other than
what the church wants for you,let alone to have a say in
(43:10):
things and even the templeceremonies and stuff.
I mean, men hold the priesthoodin the Mormon church, which is
the power to act in God's name,not women.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
And it's just in every single part of your life,
and it happens at an age whenyou are so young and I
personally think we're heldhostage to the view of the world
that we're born into until wetake it apart, and it's what we
(43:46):
filter everything through.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Yes, yes.
And when that filter is at itscore, you are born unworthy and
sinful.
Wow, that's what the worldlooks like.
That's what the world lookslike, no matter what you do.
Of course, you feel wrong orlike there's something wrong
with me or I'm unlovable orwhatever, because that's
literally what we're taught isthe basis of our creation, right
(44:11):
?
Speaker 2 (44:12):
And you were created in sin and you have to be saved,
mm.
Hmm, yeah, it's a littledifferent, it's like a real
loving God huh.
No, it's like who wants him?
The petulant, narcissist God.
I was younger that this idea ofGod.
(44:38):
You know that there werecertain things you could do that
were unforgivable and I thoughtwhat could one of my kids do?
Right, that would beunforgivable.
I couldn't imagine it.
And I thought and it was adangerous thought to have that,
well, if I'm capable offorgiving them, you know what's
(45:03):
wrong with God, you know, andthat was quickly squashed.
I don't know how questions werehandled in your experience in a
religious setting, but theywere all well.
You don't need to know that nowand it will all be explained in
(45:23):
the hereafter, and just putthat on the shelf, right, you
know that Well for me, it wasmore like the devil is talking
to you.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
We need to pray so that those demons or whatever,
don't you know, possess you andovertake your mind and your soul
, and you know that kind ofthing.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Yeah, yeah, there was always a real sense of danger
that you know the devil wasworking overtime to sway you to
his ways and that you had to beeternally vigilant, maintain
(46:25):
their I was going to say control, but their homogenous nature is
churches is not a Sunday thing,it's an all week thing.
I mean every single day of theweek there is something going on
at the church.
There is something going on atthe church Monday's family home
evening, which is a churchscripted lesson, you know.
Tuesday is the young men andwomen's you go back to church
for that.
(46:45):
You know.
Wednesday is choir practice andblah, blah, blah.
Thursday is primary, where thelittle kids get educated and
stuff, and then there'spriesthood meetings and Relief
Society meetings.
So it's really becomes a veryinsular bubble.
And you know BYU is so desiredso that you can go to a
(47:13):
university setting and meetother Mormons at a time at which
you're picking a future spouse.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah, yeah, pretty much.
Yeah, I grew up Pentecostal, soit's very similar.
You know, you go to the Biblecollege as a woman so that you
can find your husband.
You can find your preacherhusband, which is the dream,
right, right, or like mypersonal nightmare, but it's
sold as a dream.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
And did the cracks happen early for you, and were
they sudden?
Speaker 1 (48:04):
Was it a sudden shift or was it spirits contacting me
?
But I didn't understand at thetime.
I thought they were demonsbecause that was the only
association I had for spiritsoutside of God and angels.
Yeah, so that scared me a lot.
So there was, I bought in, Idid go in 100% for a very long
time, but there was always thispart of me that I knew existed
(48:29):
and that I knew had a purpose,even though I had been convinced
at that time that it wasdemonic or whatever.
Like that was just this part ofme that didn't believe it.
And I feel like you know, 90%of me was like, yes, I'll enter
whatever.
But that was that 10%, justkind of hiding in the background
, waiting for the opportunityand what's actually you know for
(48:52):
the opportunity and what'sactually you know.
To be completely candid, for meit was cannabis.
I was so afraid to think ofanything outside of what I've
been taught.
I was so afraid that I would goto hell.
I was so afraid I woulddisappoint God.
I couldn't even allow myself tothink those things.
But when I would use cannabis,it would open up my mind and all
the things that I already knew,I couldn't deny them anymore.
(49:12):
I couldn't deny.
And so it was a gradual of thatof me getting all this
understanding that I already hadand being like, okay, this
isn't a mistake, this, what I'mhearing right now, what I'm
experiencing right now, this ismore real than anything I've
heard in those in those fourwalls, and there was no denying
it for me.
So the me so the.
It was sort of gradual, butlike I was yeah one, I'm very
(49:36):
much that way once the veil islifted, once I see something I
can't unsee it, I can't pretendanymore, I can't go back.
So, yeah, it's like the end, orlocked working on.
You know, in therapy I'm likestill undoing the indoctrination
, part of it.
But as far as the doctrine Ileft that long time it was, it
was uh, it was just a naturaltransition.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah right, yeah, yeah, interesting, and it's
interesting the what's happening, uh, with psilocybin and mental
health right now in terms ofways that we can get, you know,
(50:22):
unlock our brain from itsindoctrinated, hardwired almost
ways of thinking to be more opento um other ideas.
But I mean, I have been verysurprised at how um deep the
(50:45):
indoctrination went.
I I've been out of the churchfor decades now and I found
myself several times surprisedat situations that I didn't
think would trigger me.
That triggered me.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
Yeah, I get that.
Like you said, it's an onion,it's just the layers, and you're
like, oh, I thought I had dealtwith that.
Oh, here's a deeper layer, yay,so do you still have family
members that are leaving, likethe church, or is it just kind
of done who's in is in and who'sout is out?
How does that uh?
Speaker 2 (51:24):
I yeah, it's been only in the last couple of years
that several people have loved.
So one was when my sister's son, who was a beloved member of
her big family.
She was a heavy-duty Mormon.
(51:46):
Nine kids and one of her boysannounced came out as gay.
Well, the Mormon church isquite homophobic.
I mean they say out of one sideof their mouth that you know,
(52:06):
we love everybody, but they arecan't hold the priesthood, they
can't really basicallyparticipate in any way.
And they have participated.
The church has participated inSuggesting that kids go to
(52:29):
conversion therapy and stuff.
So it's pretty homophobic.
And he is just the kindest,gentlest, most peace-loving soul
and adored in that family andthat just was a river she
(52:52):
couldn't cross.
She was like any church thatthinks that he doesn't belong
and isn't as valued a member ofsociety or our religious
organization.
There's something wrong thereand that was what triggered her
(53:14):
um decision to leave and all ofher kids followed suit except
one.
Wow, so yeah, sometimes ittakes something like that um,
others had, um uh got.
(53:35):
One of my sister-in-laws gotbreast cancer and had a
spiritual experience and she hadbeen questioning the mormon
church and had a spiritualexperience and for it confirmed
that religion.
You know they were.
That's just the words peopleuse to describe what I'm
(53:57):
experiencing, and it doesn't.
It doesn't have the kind offormal boundaries that the
Mormon church had required.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
It sounds like there's some like generational
wounding and curses that arebeing broken in your family.
I love that, yeah, becausethere's not that death grip so
much.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
You know like there's a lot of parents who would have
stuck with the church not theirchild, unfortunately so yeah,
it's true, I I have a tremendousamount of respect because and
there there's a huge populationUnfortunately Utah has a very
high rate of gay suicide.
Yeah, because there is a lot ofrejection and lack of
(54:44):
acceptance by devout Mormonmembers.
They absolutely see it as a sinand, um, you know, can't get
past it, um, yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
What, what, what advice would you give to
somebody who's leaving thechurch or who has a family
member Like what ways do yousupport your family when this is
happening?
Or what ways do you supportyour family when this is
happening, or what ways do youfind that have been helpful for
people who are deconstructing?
Speaker 2 (55:17):
Right, right, it's a great question.
I think giving yourselfpermission to take time to fully
absorb and define how you feelbefore interacting with your
family is a good suggestion.
Speaker 1 (55:38):
That's really great advice.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
I wouldn't go back to your family when you feel kind
of half-cocked.
Go ahead and give yourselfpermission to take as much time
as you need to fully decideexactly how you do feel and how
you want to handle the situationin terms of disclosing not
(56:03):
choosing not to disclose itwhatever.
I would suggest gettingtherapeutic support and a
supportive community.
Nowadays you can go onlineex-Mormon In fact, there's a
term Mormon blogosphere becausethere are so many ex-Mormons
(56:25):
online.
Um, uh, because often they'rein isolated situations uh, rural
towns or whatever or they don'tknow who to be it's safe to be
out loud about their doubts with, and so, um, find a supportive
community, preferably in person,but online, and also find some
(56:55):
friends who have your back.
So, because I underestimated theloss of family, the sense of
family, and I was fortunate thatI had one or two really good
(57:26):
friends who had my back at atime when I felt like it wasn't
safe to go home, you know, ortalk to my family about what I
was feeling and I think, havinga lot of compassion and grace
with your own deconstructingexperience, I wish somebody had
said this is going to take time,this is not an easy thing to do
(57:49):
.
Uh, an easy thing to do.
I thought that once Iunderstood that I'd been
brainwashed, ie indoctrinated um, you know when, when I was in
college, I I took psychologyclasses and learned about
brainwashing and group think andall that, and I thought, okay,
understand that I'm done.
(58:10):
All that.
And I thought, okay, understandthat I'm done.
And of course, that's just notthe way it works.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
And understanding things intellectually and
processing them emotionally aretwo different things yeah, yeah,
I get that completely,completely, um, yeah,
understanding it intellectuallyand then realizing oh wait, it's
still.
It's still hanging out, it'sstill hanging out over here.
(58:37):
Um, what do you feel?
Like I?
I know for me like there waslike a a huge loss, and wouldn't
say a loss of identity, butlike what, why?
You know, like, with the churchyou're given so much purpose,
you have this like this is whatyou're doing, this is what
you're here for, this is likewhatever and I know I have, you
(59:00):
know, found my own footing inthat now, and I'm very clear
about who I am and my enjoymentof the world, which is why I
believe I'm here.
But what do you?
How did you reestablish youridentity or build a new identity
for yourself?
Speaker 2 (59:17):
That's a such a great question because it was such a
huge part of my identity.
Being a Smith was being relatedto Joseph Smith made me special.
I was the envy of all my friendsyou know in the church because
of the way they revere bloodlineconnections, and it was being a
(59:49):
Mormon and being a Smith Mormonwas everything to me and I
didn't expect to feel the loss,especially as my family was
imploding at the same time feltvery adrift, unrooted, and it
(01:00:11):
took quite a while before I wasable to articulate, really took
until I had my spiritualexperience myself that I felt
safe enough.
(01:00:32):
Luckily, I also married a manvery, and our relationship was
very much unlike my parents,which was very patriarchal in
nature and I saw my mother ascompletely powerless and she was
the martyr and he was themartyr and he was the um, uh,
(01:00:53):
severe patriarch and he anchoredme, um, and I also saw a
different way of being umthrough the kind of general
acceptance that he gave me thatwasn't based on perfection or
(01:01:20):
performance, but kind of a lovethat was just because he loved
me, I mean, and that was a wholenew concept, uh, that kind of
love and so and so when Istarted, when we had our own
(01:01:40):
family, I was all about you knowum doing it differently.
Yeah, of course that'schallenging.
Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Yeah, when it's wired into your brain wired into your
brain yeah, like it likes toshow up.
Yeah, there's some things thatI realized that always I felt
different or awkward or weird,and I realized now it was just
these, these beliefs that werein me, that I was different or,
like you said, special orwhatever.
(01:02:11):
And a lot of judgment and a lotof yeah, just be feeling on the
outside of things.
So I get that yeah, to havereal love.
Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
It shows you what the other isn't you know that's a
great way to say it.
You know, when you have thereal deal, you recognize that
the other is fool's gold.
You know it's pretend it'sfool's gold.
Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
That's a great way to put it.
Yeah, yeah, and I always saythat about like figuring out who
you are, rebuilding identity orwhatever.
For me, it's like before youcan do that, you have to figure
out who you're not.
Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
Yes, that's so true.
I know that's not who I am,right judgmental, critical, uh,
intolerant arrogance yeah uh-huh, uh, convinced I'm the only
person with the right answeryeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
it's hard on relationships, isn't it when you
think you know everything?
Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Yeah, and you know it was weird coming to terms with
the fact that there wassomething that was so safe about
the certainty of Mormon answers.
I didn't realize how safe thatfelt.
(01:03:55):
Mormons had an answer foreverything.
I didn't have any answers foranything, so it was you know
just such a huge flip of theswitch and, you know, I missed
that certainty and I tried tofill it with being a certain
(01:04:17):
atheist.
Yeah, these people, they justcan't, you know, accept the fact
that it's a random universe andthey need the idea of God
because, you know so, I was justas certain and arrogant, and in
my position as an atheist, youknow, than my brothers and
(01:04:39):
sisters were with their you knowdogma, until I was broken open
(01:05:02):
with the spiritual experiencethat I realized that it's all
about connection, acceptance,forgiveness.
Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that In all of thisjourney and everything that
you've been through up untilthis point, where would you say
that you are now?
Would?
Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
you say that you are now, I would say that I'm no
longer in active search mode.
I think for quite a while I wasconstantly reading the latest
book on spirituality that cameout.
A sister and my father reallygot into A Course in Miracles,
(01:05:54):
which is a spiritual belief, apath, and I looked at that and
it didn't fit for me exactly.
So I liked a lot of theconcepts of it, but I didn't
(01:06:16):
want to be defined down.
But I felt I was.
I was pressed to continue toexplore, uh, search mode.
I was in the self-help sectionof the bookstore a lot, yeah,
yeah, and whether it wasconversation with God, you know
whether it's untethering my soulor you know, whatever it was, I
(01:06:42):
was looking for.
The answers.
Go of the idea that there are,there is one answer.
Um was so free because now, um,now I can see.
Well, it looks like that's theanswer for you.
You know that's wonderful, or Idon't need to have the answer
(01:07:05):
defined.
I am now content with themystery.
I don't need to know how it allworks, love, but, um, it
influences my life in a way thatmakes me I feel a better person
.
My mantra in the morning when Iget up I set my intention and
(01:07:43):
basically say let me be the faceof kindness in every encounter.
Today, that's, it's so simplenow, whereas before.
How does it all work?
What happens after we die?
Do we retain consciousness?
Are we a drop in the ocean?
(01:08:03):
You know, I wanted all theanswers and I don't know if it's
just because I'm getting olderthat I'm more satisfied with not
having them, but it doesn'ttrouble me.
Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Yeah, yeah, I get that.
Yeah, I feel like that need forthe answers, that need for like
something definite, is a resultof the indoctrination, because,
like you said, we're giventhese set of rules and if you
follow these rules then you'regoing to be OK.
And so I feel like I know withme, like my brain is always
grasping for a definite andthat's my newest thing that I've
(01:08:36):
been working on within myselfis just like what do you feel?
Like you get to decide what theanswer is.
You get to choose what theanswer is.
There is no definite.
What is right for you, whatfeels in line with you, um,
which also shows me that, likein the choices that I make, the,
the, the attributes that I hadgiven to the church about myself
(01:08:56):
, the loving, kindness and andall of my spiritual connection
and so many things that I hadgiven credit to the church for
now that I make decisions justbased on who, what feels
authentic to me, I realized thatthose things were just
authentic to me.
Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
It didn't belong to the church, you know, it's just
interesting that you were ableto make that distinction and
claim those for yourself it'sonly been recent, but yeah, it's
been a blessing for sure.
Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Wonderful, that's wonderful yeah, yeah yeah, so I
um, I'd like to end with what.
What advice would you give withsomebody who's thinking about
deconstructing, with somebodywho's just starting to have
those thoughts about leaving?
What would you give them?
Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
You know, I would say be compassionate with yourself.
This is a painful, sometimesprocess.
It feels uncertain, it's goingto take time and reach out and
for the resources and supportthat you need on your journey
(01:10:04):
and we all need those.
There's no way to do this alone, and that's one of the gifts is
finding community, a differentkind of community, outside of
the church community that yougrew up in.
Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful.
I appreciate your time, lynn,and for everybody listening, I
will be posting all of the linksand all the information on how
to follow along her journey inthe description of the show, as
well as the blog post thatfollows a couple of weeks later.
So, thank you, thank you somuch.
Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Thank you, it was a pleasure talking with you.
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