SPECIAL EP: Leftist Teen Drama In Conversation with Thea Glassman

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey. I'm Maria. I work at a labor union by day and write and watch too much TV by night. I like to say I've been firmly in the CW's clutches since it was The WB. As the great Seth Cohen on The OC once said about the fictional teen drama, The Valley, TV teen dramas are mind numbing escapism.

(00:01):
They exist in a fantasy world where 20 hot actors are usually cosplaying high schoolers in melodramatic depictions of adolescents. But that's honestly why I love teen dramas so much. I love the tropes and the ships and the not at all subtle product placement. I love the early aughts theme songs and the cameo performances by pop punk bands. I love the newer generation of shows that are more diverse and representative of the vastness of teenage girldom.
And I especially love the moments when TV teen dramas get political. You guys, we can organize. Stand together. Speak with one voice. Karl Marx has come alive for me today.
Now it just seems so obviously wrong that those who control capital should make their fortunes off the labor of the working class. Well, since you've fired us, you've given us plenty of time to pick in. Fortress of the world, you're not profiting. Long live the revolution. Welcome to another episode of Lost His Teen Drama.
This is a special episode, our third such, where we talk to a writer about her related body of work. And I'm super excited to introduce Thea Glassman to the podcast. We're gonna be discussing her awesome book, Freaks, Gleeks, and Dawson's Creek, How 17 Shows Transform Television. So welcome, Thea. Thanks for having me.
Do you wanna just, like, briefly introduce yourself, and then we can get into it? Yeah. Sure. So, I'm a pop culture journalist, and I mostly cover television. So Freaks, Gleaks, and Dawson's Creek was my first book, and I'm a huge teen TV fan.
So this is my chance to kinda go super deep on 17 TV shows that I was obsessed with then and I'm obsessed with now. Totally. So I found your book came out in 2023. Right? Yes.
I was going back and trying to figure out when I actually acquired your book. And yeah. Because I distinctly remember I was, like, home in New Jersey in my old hometown neighborhood bookstore Shouts Out Words in Maplewood, New Jersey. And I saw your book, like, as I was browsing. And I was just like, oh my god.
This is perfect. And my mom was like, oh, I could get you that for Christmas. And so then, like, I got it for Christmas that December and finally started reading it last year when we did a My So Called Life episode. Because I was like, oh, I know that there's a My So Called Life chapter. I really wanna see, you know, like, what behind the scenes gossip and just information you had gleaned.
And it was so helpful to the episode. And if you haven't listened to the My So Called Life episode, definitely go back and listen to it. We're gonna talk about some of the same things, obviously, today because we're gonna talk about that chapter. But yeah. So I finally finished reading it for this episode, and I'm so glad that I read it all the way through, finally.
It's really such a fun book, and I'm excited to get into it. But first, something that we always do on this podcast is that we usually talk about what our relationship is to whatever teen drama we're talking about. But in the case of, like, a more general episode, I figured we would just kick it off by just discussing what our relationship to teen dramas is generally. So, yeah, I know that you, like, love teen teen b, but do you have any, like, specific, like, early memories or, like, what you would say your, like, overall relationship with teen dramas is? Yeah.
So Dawson's was my first, and I wish I could remember how I kind of because I was a little late to it. It was already off the air, but I was getting the DVDs. The excitement of getting the red envelope from Netflix in the mail, what a thrill. And I, yeah, I think I was 13. I started ordering the seasons, and my sister and I would lie on the floor of our living room, and we would just watch breathlessly.
And I think it was the first show where I I was I was so deeply invested in after we would watch an episode. We would just sit there, and we would talk about Dawson and Joey and Pacey and Jen. And it was, like, it was when I realized I cared about TV on on, like, a deeper, obsessive level. And I think that show, I wonder if you had a similar experience with it in that the drama never felt stressful. Like, it was such a cozy world to live in.
And it was the kind of, like, world where you want to stay up till two in the morning watching. And you laughed, and you cried, and you got to experience the romance that you, like, certainly weren't experiencing as an awkward teen. So that that was my big foray into teen drama. That's awesome. Yeah.
No. I totally and you definitely touched on how they achieved that in the book, which we'll get to. But, yeah, Dawson's Creek is definitely one of the coethiest teen dramas. Obviously, we'll talk about this as well, but, like, Wilmington, North Carolina is, like, the teen drama mecca. And I feel like Dawson's Creek and One Tree Hill, which were both filmed there, give me the same cozy feeling when I watch them.
And then, obviously, different vibe of cozy, but Gilmore Girls is my my go to as it is for many. And I it's crazy how, like, it's gone like, I was a Gilmore Girls fan, like, growing up, like, watched it live on the WB. And so it's crazy how it's gone from, like, what it was back then to, like, the yearly binge memes, like, every fall, you know? Right. And it's, did you have also the DVD sets?
I can so visually picture, like, the lavender DVD sets and Yes. Gosh. Yeah. Yeah. We have them.
And then, like like, one of the my first Christmases with my now husband, he, like, bought me the full set because he knew my sister wanted to keep the one that we had, and it was, like, oh my god. So romantic. Right. Absolutely. That's a perfect transition until, like, actually getting into, like, how the book came to be.
So, like, obviously, you're a pop culture writer, so I'm assuming that you had covered some form of teen TV already by the time you sat down to write this book. So, yeah, like, tell me the story of how the book basically came to be. So this is, again, back to Dawson's Creek. It was I think it was the twentieth anniversary, and I I was a freelance journalist. And I I wanted to pitch an article about Dawson's Creek, and I ended up writing an article.
It was for Vanity Fair. It was about the writer's room. So I got to interview a whole bunch of Dawson's Creek writers. To this day, I think my favorite assignment I've ever done. It was so thrilling and interesting to get to hear about writing the love triangles.
I talked to one really amazing Dawson's Creek writer. She's prominent in the book. Her name's Gina Fattore. And she talked about Jack's first kiss and what it was like filming that kiss and how the network, like, was like, you gotta film this from 10 blocks away, you know, to show two young men kissing. While Greg Berlanti, who was the showrunner at the time, was like, I wanna see Tongue.
I want this to be hot. Like, it was such a fascinating story. These were all such young writers at the time, so they were coming of age as they were writing the show themselves. And so I thought, oh, it'd be so cool and interesting to get to do behind the scenes on teen TV shows and kinda look at the people who brought them to life and their own kind of coming of age stories throughout it all. Yeah.

(00:22):
Absolutely. So I am curious. How did you narrow it down to, like, the specific seven shows? Like, did it have anything to do with, like, your personal relationship? Or just, like, were you fully, like, which ones feel like they were the most important?
And, like, did you consider any that didn't make the cut? Is that's nothing I'm curious about. I think there might have been, like, 15 shows in the beginning. And someone very rightly said, absolutely not. You can't.
15 shows. So I did narrow it down. I I mean, there are shows I love. I love Lizzie McGuire. I love that show.
I had a harder time kinda making the argument that that was ground like, that was I think it was groundbreaking in in in some ways, but that, like, it had this huge ripple effect. So I started to really look closely at the shows that I could really make the case were groundbreaking. But also, I was super interested to see the characters who sort of went through it all. So Jason Kadems got his start in My So Called Life as a writer, and he went on to create Friday Night Lights. So I thought it'd be so interesting to sort of look at his journey from a first time writer to creating this teen show and and sort of see how all these different shows influence each other.
I want to make sure there's a narrative throughout it all, so that's how I kinda picked and chose the shows. Yeah. It totally makes sense. That's definitely one of my favorite parts of the book, honestly, and some of the things I've pointed out that we'll definitely talk about more in-depth is, yeah, different, like, characters who keep coming up again, but, like, they're real people who made your favorite character. I would know you have one regret, and I I didn't include Gilmore Girls because I didn't know if it qual I wasn't sure to this day if it qualifies as a teen drama.
Totally. I I would have loved to have done it, but I it just felt like Lorelei is such a big part of that equation. Can we call it a teen show? I don't know. But to this day, that haunts me a little bit.
Oh, totally. It, like, you know, we use a very, like, large and liberal teen drama definition because we like to include college age storylines on the pod. But that's why we've done a Gilmore Girls episode because I was kinda like, well, they were in high school and college. Yeah. But, no.
I totally for, like, a teen show book, I would not include Gilmore Girls. So I totally agree. That makes sense. That makes sense to me. Good.
Okay. I am glad. It is I think Gilmore Girls, you definitely could have made the argument it was groundbreaking. It's not just not sure if it's groundbreaking on teen dramas so much as, like, TV in general, I feel like. Right.
Like, it I right. I feel like that should be its own book in and of itself, Gilmore Girls. But WB, though. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. No. The WB, it was really interesting to see the the whole arc of that. And not not that every show was on the WB, but, like, even the influence of the WB on the non WB shows was definitely there. Yeah.
For sure. Before we get into, like, the actual meat of the book, like, can you talk to me about kinda, like, what the reporting process was like? Did you have any, like, interviews that stood out or creatives who were, like, you were, like, oh my god. I'm so excited to talk to you. Like, all that kind of stuff.
The reporting process is really interesting. Anybody who is available and wanted to talk to me, who worked on the show, I was so overjoyed to talk to. I literally went through IMDB, and I emailed everybody. I particularly the writers were really, really interesting. Like, the writers were so fascinating.
I mean, you know, I'm sorry. I keep hitting Dawson's Creek, but I I loved there was this writer named Tom Kapanos, and he got his start on the third season of Dawson's Creek. And I think for Dawson's Creek fans, the third season was admittedly a very rocky season. It was so fascinating. Fascinating.
He went from being this fresh writer dealing with the Eve storylines and then went on to helm the college years. So, like, he his first time showrunning was, like, transitioning Dawson's from high school to college, which was so fascinating to learn about. I loved talking to production designers. I loved talking to the directors. There were so many behind the scenes people.
And then it was also really fascinating. Like, I talked to Tate Donovan, who was an actor who played Jimmy on the OC and then went on to direct Glee. So it was so fun talking to the people who had their hands in in different worlds and kinda get to talk to them about all of those worlds. Yeah. I did not realize that about Tay Donovan.
So that was really fun to see him show up, like, at the end of the book because of the chronological order. And I did remember that he had directed on The OC because I think he came on to that OC podcast that Rachel Bilson and Melinda Clark did, that I listened to some of, and I remember him talking about directing. Yeah. No. I'm excited to get into each of them.
All all the stuff you managed to, you know, pull out, like, I feel you confirmed tensions in places where, like, I thought there were tensions, but then also, like, brought a lot of, like, interesting details from the perspective of people, like, production designers and cinematographers and stuff that was just, like, never would have even thought to ask those people. You know, like, yeah. It definitely makes sense that you, like, went through IMDB and were, like, who will talk to me? Oh my god. And so the production designers, I feel like don't get enough love, like, creating pride and, like, making I loved I think, honestly, one of my favorite quotes someone said was the production designer for Dawson's Creek.
He was constantly being instructed to put twinkle lights all throughout Wilmington, and it was just it, like he he was like, no more twinkle lights. I can't do any more of these. And at one point, he's he said, like, this this place is so beautiful. Like, why are these kids complaining so much? Like, like, I like what perspective on it.
So funny. Cool. So let's get into the books. One thing I wanted to say is I really think it's cool how it goes chronologically. Is there, like, anything you wanna share about, like, why you chose the structure of the book this way?
I mean, I definitely think it works really well, but I was just curious. Yeah. I think I kind of I knew I was gonna end with Glee. And because Glee was so outside the box in so many different ways, I kinda wanted to show how we got there. Right.

(00:43):
The early days when characters were boxed in, kisses were monitored, the way that characters acted were so networks had so many notes on so many things. And so I kinda wanted to build to that place and show how, like, inch by inch, each one was kinda opening the door for the next show, making it a little bit easier to to to tell to show television in a more interesting dynamic, like, groundbreaking way. I did pull some stuff from the forward. So I'm currently writing a book chapter about One Tree Hill for the unions and TV, like, book that's being published by SUNY Press in, we don't know when. 2026 or 2027.
Oh, cool. Yeah. And I'm definitely pulled some of the quotes from your book, and I guess a slight possibility I sent you. But one of the quotes that you cite in your introduction, so it's a foreword and an introduction, both of which I loved. Did you wanna say anything, a shout out to the person who did your foreword?
Because I thought that was cool. Shout out to Jennifer Armstrong, who's she's an incredible entertainment journalist. She wrote Seinfeldia. She wrote a book called Sex and the City and Us. She has a book coming out on Parks and Rec, behind the scenes of Parks and Rec.
She's incredible. Check her out. Yeah. And she definitely set the tone really well, in the forward. I would I would bringing Shakespeare into Yeah.
Like, that Shakespeare would have really liked Marissa and Ryan, and I think that is absolutely true. Yes. I mean, yeah. There's somebody needs to write the book about, like, the Shakespeare teen adaptations of the the late nineties and early two thousands game because, like, yeah, a lot there. So I think that was very apt.
So one of the quotes that you cite in your introduction, though, from Michelle Williams during the show's twenty year reunion really stuck with me where she said, like, when something affects you while you were growing up, it kind of stays in there forever. When you're so permeable and open and trying to figure out who you are, whatever reaches you in those moments really becomes part of you. Because that really, like, backs up so much of what I've been trying to say on this podcast and that I'm currently working on a chapter teen character's ten minute work or organizing plotline matters. You can't ignore how, like, important it is that the viewers of these shows are often young people. And, yes, like, you know, 30 year old teenagers who are never gonna let these shows go.
But the reason for that is because we were teenagers when we first came to love these kinds of shows. So, yeah, I love that the actors, like, understand the impact that they have. Yeah. And I it's so interesting, I think, to see some of the actors' journeys with that, where maybe for a little while, there was some resentment about being seen as a as a teen star. And I love seeing the full circle for so many of them realizing what an impact they had and continue to have on people.
And, yeah, you also mentioned how, like, today's teen shows are which is something I talk about all the time, and we talk about newer shows often because they're often doing full political things. And much as if they're, like, leading the charge when it comes to being, like, progressive and diverse and creative with storytelling. And, like, you really make the argument throughout the book after you say this that, like, it's because of all these shows that came before. Yeah. Yeah.
For sure. So let's get into the first chapter, which is about The Fresh Prince of Bel Air. So it takes us from 1990, which is yeah. Fresh Prince of Bel Air was, like, a show that I watched reruns of for sure on and off. But, like, I don't know if I've ever actually sat down and watched, like, it in its entirety.
But, yeah, let's talk about, like, what made Fresh Prince so revolutionary. Yeah. Well, it's funny you say that because I remember talking to my mom, and I don't know that she'd ever seen an episode of the show, but she didn't get the entire theme song. Like, or she didn't even know the entire theme song, but she knew some. I'm like, woah, how is that possible?
Like, just even that how embedded it is in in the fabric of our pop culture world. I thought that show was super interesting on a lot of different levels. There had never been a hip hop star to be the star of a network TV show, and it was coming in during a time when, like, rap had a really bad name. There were a lot of conversations around, like I remember when they were doing interviews for for the show, a lot of them were trying to be, like, downplay the rap. And they're like, this is not a show about rap.
It's It's not a show about hip hop. Andy Borowitz and Susan Borowitz who created the show, like, there was one rap song in the pilot, and they made sure that Ashley, the youngest daughter, was the one who did it to, like, kind of, like, they're trying to introduce audiences to it. I think what I found talking to both Andy and Susan, they both had worked on sitcoms. I think it was Different Strokes and The Facts of Life. And both of them talked about how, like, there was maybe a little bit of a preachy quality to sitcoms at the time, and there was a lot of, like, very special episodes and their determination to not do that.
And I think they and very successfully didn't do it. Like, I'd did you ever watch when Will's dad comes back, that sort of, like, now iconic episode? It sounds really familiar. I remember it in yeah. Like, I feel like I must have at some point or at least seen a clip at some point if it, like, went around the Internet or something.
The hug. There's, like, a there was a whole Washington Post article just about the hug that him and uncle Phil have. And it was a sort of determination to do these emotionally driven stories within the framework of sitcoms that I found really impressive. And to do an episode on racial profiling at that time and within the format of a sitcom, I thought, was really impressive and groundbreaking. That was a really interesting show to to dive into.
Absolutely. Yeah. I vaguely remembered the the well, I think it's mistaken identity when Will and Carlton are pulled over by a police officer. But it's so crazy because I had forgotten about it, but it, like, directly parallels a very early season one All American episode where the same thing happens. And Spencer knows exactly what to do because he's from the less privileged area and has dealt with the cops before.
And then, like, the, you know, richer, still black, but not really understanding fully his blackness character, Jordan, in this case, you know, to parallel Carlton, is like, what? Like, in talking back to the cops and stuff and, like, not knowing how to act around cops and not get killed. And yeah. I was like, wow. The influence is, like, directly there.
That's surprising. I actually had no idea that they did that that parallel. Was it clear that they that they were pace like, basically doing a hat tip to that episode? I mean, I feel like they had to have been. Yeah.
It's a very like, All American is a very black, like, writers' room and creative team too. So I feel like making it, like, an homage to, like, another historic I mean, maybe that's a good transition to the fact that it is interesting that the Borowitz's were the ones who created the show, given it's an entirely black cast. And, like, would that happen today? I don't know. Maybe it happens more than one would think.
But, like, I don't know. In a post Issa Rae world, maybe things are getting better. I don't know. Yeah. I think I think it was Andy who said that under no circumstance now would they have approached two white writers and said, can you create this Right.
Show? Like, he felt pretty strongly that that would have been the case. And that the network either didn't think of or didn't have an interest in hiring two black show runners for the show. Yeah. It was what I mean, they were probably having this if this was a 1990 airing, this was probably being discussed in the late eighties.
I mean, in a completely different time. So, yeah, that's a cool homage. I mean, I I think that it had to have been purposeful, but I had I don't have any, like, actual evidence. Yes. Right.

(01:04):
I don't either, but I would not be surprised. Yeah. The other thing that you talked about is the fact that, like, there had never been a black family on TV who had, like, as much wealth as uncle Phil and aunt Viv have. Like, the Huxtables aren't quite at that level. So, yeah, them having, like, this, like, butler and, like, this insane mansion is, like, very different than probably how most people at that time thought of, like, what a black family would be like.
I thought it was so interesting the influence of Quincy Jones on that that and how the Borowicz's went to Quincy Jones' house and got to know him and, like, how much that sort of found its way into the fabric of the Banks family. It's also funny being somebody, you know, born after this show had already started airing. Like, to me, Will Smith is the Fresh Prince, but it was interesting how, like, he was already a rapper and then, like, became the Fresh Prince. So, like, it really depends on, like, you know, your age. I see Will Smith, I guess.
And now maybe people think of him as, like, you know, the parent of Willow Smith. I don't know. Really? What's his name? What's his kid's other kid's name?
Whatever. You know what I'm talking about. The Smith's name. Yes. And, like, the whole I didn't realize this until I went into the whole thing with the the tax evasion and how he hadn't paid his taxes, and that was part of why he took the show because he was in debt Right.
And kind of that whole thing. And I mean, this is interesting also about how he really wasn't he was not a trained actor. I love the the anecdotes about how he would mouth along the words to everyone else's lines until everyone kept being, like, please stop doing that. You're making me nervous. Yeah.
I could only imagine. Yeah. My thought was really interesting was the fact that the cast eventually approached the writers with a unified request to, like, basically address what's happening in Los Angeles around, like, the Rodney King beating. And that, I think, was cool and kind of reminds me of some of the shows we'll talk about later where it seemed like there was more of a dialogue between, like, actor and and writer's room Right. About characters.
Yeah. Right. And I do feel like what I liked about a lot of these shows was it did seem like there was a dialogue. Was it did seem like I talked about this later with Friday Night Lights where one actor went out with Jason Kadens, and it's kinda like, I'm a little bit nervous that my character's becoming two dimensional when we work on that, and he was so open to it. So I feel like that really stuck out to me with a lot of these shows.
I guess to kind of close out our Fresh Prince, there was a quote from you. It's I don't know if maybe you would wanna read it. It's on page two. Fresh Prince offered comedy and heart. It challenged the traditional sitcom format and painted a nuanced picture of the black experience, presenting us with episodes of network television that remain as painfully relevant now as they were then.
So I found that really sums it up. And, yeah, Fresh Prince is something that I think a lot of shows that do the comedy, dramedy kind of thing, they owe a debt to. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.
For sure. Where it doesn't, everything doesn't have to be for the laugh track, which I felt like was sort of a new thing at the time. Like, there were a couple episodes in there where they're like, we're not gonna do a laugh every three minutes. We kinda wanna sit in this moment, which I feel like was kind of crazy for a sitcom television at the time. Absolutely.
Yeah. Do you have anything else you wanted to share from the Fresh Prince chapter before we move on to my folk club life? I think that's probably it. I love that, like, the one of the creators I might be getting this wrong, so please forgive me. But, like, it was like she does visiting it's like young students.
She'll go and she'll talk to them about writing TV, and they all know the theme song to Fresh Prince of Bel Air. Like Oh, that sounds familiar. That was definitely a joke. Yeah. Yeah.
That's that's really cute. So that brings us to My Soul Called Life, which aired from 1994 to 1995, infamously getting cut after one season. One of the two one season teen dramas we're gonna be talking about here, which I feel like are truly the two, like, biggest cult followed, like, because of their being cut too short. Yeah. So, yeah, what made My So Called Life so revolutionary at the time?
A lot of different things. It's sort of all feel so crazy to say now that the idea of doing a TV show about a young woman was kind of revolutionary at the time and one that really took her life and her inner monologue seriously. That was sort of, it was so so unusual at the time that the network was like, how are we supposed to market the show? Like, how are we like, are young people gonna watch it? I don't think we can really market to young people or young girls.
Like, I feel like that in of itself says everything. It was so committed to realistic storytelling. I feel like it talked about sex in a in a way I had not seen at the time and, like, a young woman's desires. One of my favorite little stories was Jason Kadens talked about sitting in a room with Winnie Holzman, who created the show, and she would go through the script. And she would just sit there, and she'd say, okay.
What would these characters actually say? She put umms into the script and like, and, like, she made the the way they talked actually sound the way teens talk and all. It's sort of, like, awkward glory. Yeah. Absolutely.
The thing that this book made me realize is, like, how many different, like, almost, like, styles of teen drama really do exist and how I love all of them, but just for different reasons. Like, I love that, but there's a show I can watch where the teenagers are actually awkward and, like, umming and liking all over the place. But then I also really sometimes want to listen to the Dawson's Creek teens use the most flowery language known to man. Yeah. Right.
Exactly. There's there's, like, the glossy. You just wanna sort of disappear into the aspirational, or you wanna go to a place where they wear the same like, she wears the same flannel almost every single episode, you know, like, where it feels like this is more my high school experience. Yeah. Exactly.
And there's room for all of it. And I think we have, like, influences from all of these in the current shows, which is awesome. And there was a couple other school details about, like, kind of making it realistic that I feel like are worth mentioning. So I thought it was cool that Bunny's brother was a cinematographer, first of all. Like, okay, keep it in the family.
That's cute. And I just loved the insights that he shared. So do you wanna talk at all about some of that? Well, so I think in general, the way I think I talked to Scott Wynant who directed the pilot, and he directed a bunch of other episodes. And they wanted to shoot it like a movie, which was really unusual at the time.
Time. Like, they wanted the lighting to be supernaturalistic. They wanted kinda like the way the light streamed through the windows. And it was some of the things that they did were really expensive and I think probably really annoyed the network, but they wanted it to, like, look cinematic and look as real as possible down to I I mentioned this a little bit before, but down to the fact that they didn't wanna get big wardrobes for the actors. Like, you have what?

(01:25):
Like, when you have, like, five shirts, you have, like, three pairs of jeans, whatever. Like, they wanted such specific realistic details, and the network pushed back and said, she's wearing the same flannel again. But so they were so committed to the the little details that would make the world feel real. Yeah. I loved I loved that.
And they shot on 16 millimeter film, and your description of that, I really appreciated, and it stuck with me where you said that it gave the show a grainy textural look a little like the viewer was watching a memory, which is, I think, is so apt. Like, that's exactly what watching my folk loved life feels like. Right. Like, I feel like it felt nostalgic then somehow. And if it like, it's always gonna feel like a nostalgic show just from the way it was shot.
Yeah. It's such a, like, honestly beautiful piece of art. And, like, another reason that is so beautiful, and as we did talk about this at length in our My So Called Life episode, if you're interested in hearing about it more, but I think Ricky Vasquez's arc is just super, super groundbreaking and, obviously, absolutely parallels Jack's arc. Dawson Spiegel will talk about too. So, yeah.
Do you wanna talk at all about that arc and that character? It was really interesting hearing Winnie talk about, basically, like, how she in the pilot I believe it's a pilot. Ricky is in the bathroom with the girls, and he's wearing eyeliner. And she got notes from the network that were, like, he shouldn't be in the girl's bathroom. He shouldn't be wearing eyeliner.
And she really pushed back. Like, she she fought for that character. And, I mean, of course, like, the the really, like, huge scene where he tells Delia that he's gay and Athena never come out on a TV show before. And I loved Senta Moses, who played Delia, share, like, a script page where she annotated everything because her character was supposed to have a crush on Ricky. So I feel like that helped kinda bring it to life in a cool way.
Yeah. I loved that you included that page. It was really, really cute. I mean, he is just such a groundbreaking character. It was really cool to see that he's kind of inspired by Paris is Burning, you know.
And Patrick Norris, is that am I correct that he worked on My So Called Life, the costume designer? He shows up again later. Right? Yes. So he started out yes.
And I I also did I think Patrick might be the most recurring character Okay. About it because I think he yeah. He started out he was a costume designer. I think he directed I can't remember how many episodes. And then he directed on The O.
C. He directed on Dawson's Creek, and he directed on Friday Night Lights. So he really was, like, the star of this, like, this the book. And, yeah, I loved he was super influenced by Prince when he was dressing. Yes.
He and it was very cool. It's like how he shopped for him and how he shopped for all the characters. Like, he sort of up and coming designer Tommy Hilfiger was how he dressed Brian. Oh my god. Yeah.
So funny. Love it. And then one thing that I just, like, loved here, and then I think it's just like a recurring theme on my podcast is, like, the the real impact that some of these storylines can have with, you know, literally the story of Wilson Cruz getting a call from his dad after his coming out episode had aired, and he had been kicked out of his house. And just how, like, it felt like my from the chapter My So Called Life was one of the ones where they were really, like, kind of pulling a little bit from reality. What it feels like a lot of these did, which it does make sense you're, like, with these actors, like, however many hours a week, and, like, you know, they're playing the same character for years and years at a time.
So I think you also just talked with the general impact that had on, like, queer teens, which was definitely profound. Right. It was so interesting that I hadn't realized the person who directed that coming out had also directed the first kiss between two women on TV for I think it was the show was LA Law. And she had seen firsthand what that meant to people, and people would come over to her and be like, you have no idea what what that means to our community. And then she gets that's one really iconic pop culture moment, and then she went on to direct this other really iconic pop culture moment.
Awesome. And let's talk a little bit about why this show, while beloved, didn't make it past the first season. I don't know. Do you remember the marketing of the show? I, like, hadn't I had I was too young.
Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't really been privy to it. I think they they didn't know how to market it and also maybe didn't care to market it in a, like, in a very targeted way. I think the ads, they were sort of trying to make it the sexy show.
They sort of tried to make it look there, like, there was a love triangle, which they're I mean, I guess a little a little, but it wasn't really central to the story. I I think they I really don't think the network really believed in it and really put their whole, like, heart behind that show. Mhmm. And then I there was a little bit of a turning point, it sounds like, where they're maybe thinking about renewing it. But at that point, I mean, poor Claire Danes have been sort of dragged through this whole thing, stopping.
Sorry. She was kinda ready to move on, it sounds like. But I feel like it was it was just a little bit too ahead of its time, maybe. Yeah. A little bit had the same thing where Freaks and Geeks two, I feel like, was just it was just, like, a little too ahead of its time.
No. That's definitely the vibe that I got. And I also don't think I realized until I read your chapter on it that my so called Life had Emmy nominations, which is, like, crazy. Yeah. And that's also how I learned there used to be an Emmy for outstanding achievement in main title theme music.
Like, oh my god. They have taken so much from us. They've taken our theme music to the point they don't even have an Emmy for it anymore. I know. And really talk about theme music, all these shows.
I feel like that and Friday Night Lights, the theme music is, like, when I hear it, I feel like my heart explodes a little bit. Totally. And, like, obviously, Dawson's had a super iconic Yeah. Theme song. Yeah.
Yeah. I I rage it's like a a recurring thing on this podcast that I rage against the lack of theme songs now. So I had to when I saw that, I was like, then we need to discuss this. I don't know also if you found this is it it was very small stories. The My So Called Life, there's an episode about a zit.
I mean, it was all Right. Bigger bigger story behind it. But, like, did you sort of get this feeling where, like, now these days, I feel like shows are celebrated for telling kind of smaller intimate stories, but that wasn't really the case for a long time. Oh, definitely. Yeah.

(01:46):
Yeah. No. Totally. Because I feel like a lot of the teen dramas, especially of, like, the two thousands era, were, like, constantly drama needs to be happening. Like, I which I think we'll talk about is kind of the o I think the OC season one really had that emotion when they got the 27 episodes I didn't know what to do with.
Because One Tree Hill kinda started around the same time, and I know they kind of were, like, feeding off of each other. It's like, kind of what I've heard from listening to some of the One Tree Hill podcast, they definitely were very aware of each other's existence because they were on different networks. Then, also, I feel like just Gossip Girl, which again is the same creator as the COC. Like, I just feel like all of those were so, like, go go go drama drama drama. Big things are happening.
And, yeah, didn't didn't fit as much in the small moments. Right. And then I think when they did, I feel like the OC, if I'm skipping ahead, but, like, in season four was when they kinda they did sort of sit with those smaller moments and it didn't maybe work as well for everybody. Yeah. I personally I'm a defender of season four.
I love season four. Yeah. Yeah. We did a whole episode about Summer Robert's arc in season four because Yes. It's very political.
So I have a soft spot in my heart for season four, even though I do not I do like Marissa, so I am sad to not have her there. But I still think it's worth watching, and I always tell people that. I agree. Stick stick with it. Yeah.
Yeah. I actually have my friend Maya, who is probably gonna come up multiple times on this podcast because she always texts me, like, I'm just like like, you know, and she's in the middle of watching a teen drama. I had to convince her to finish the OC. She's doing it now. I think she's somewhere in season three or something.
But I was like, you gotta stick with it. There's there's gems in every season. It can get kinda inconsistent, but there's gems in every season. Has has Marissa died yet? I don't think so.
Okay. But I think she knows that Marissa dies. My friend Kelly, on the other hand, recently told me that her boyfriend is watching the OC for the first time, and he didn't know Marissa was gonna die, and they just got there. And I'm like, how did he manage to, like, not know that fact? That's just, like to me, that's crazy, but I know that my feed probably looks different than his.
Right. And also, like, the joy that she must have had getting to watch his reaction when Right. That happened, but it's, like, that is a singular moment. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Another thing from going back to My So Called Life that I think is really interesting is the fact that it was, like, the first, like, online campaign to try to save a show. I feel like that is, like, that is such a thing now. Right. And there was a whole op ed. I can't remember.
Maybe this was in the Washington Post. And then I think they did that with Freaks and Geeks too. There might have been some overlap there, and so they're like, let's try it again. Yeah. Totally.
And so I also loved your defense of Brian Krakow toward the end of the chapter. Can you explain why Brian Krakow was born before his time? Because I thought that was fun. I I think rewatching it, I was just like, Jordan Catalano is horrible. Yeah.
I'm sorry. I had never watched, because I was born in '94. So, like, I had never watched it live. I missed it on the reruns or whatever. So watching it last year was my first time watching it all the way through, and I was like, I do not like this man.
No. Boy, whatever the fuck. No. Right. Boy man.
Like, Like, maybe is he 26? I don't know. Like, I'm sorry. I know that gen x, like, loves him, and they have, like, a special place in their heart for him. And I they can have that.
Let let them have that, but I don't have it. No. Like, he was oh, the scene in the car when he when he's, like, sort of aggressively trying to kiss her, and then she just wants to talk, and he leaves. And I don't know if that was, like, sexy at the time. I don't I don't totally I don't know that I feel like what what conversation do you have with Jordan Catalano on a date?
Like, there's no I don't know what you would talk about. Brian, I think there's plenty you talk about. Like, what I feel like what a, like, what a lovely guy and who was I feel like there was not a lot of room at the time for, like, awkward men to to flourish or really awkward women. Like, I feel like there was the awkwardness on TV was not really celebrated at the time. And now, I think it is, and awkward people can can rise up now in this this day and age.
Justice for Brian. Yeah. Totally. No. I'm like yeah.
And I made him, like, be an asshole, which is real. Like, teenage boys just are asshole even when they're the awkward ones. But that was, like, broke my heart when he, like, completely stomped all over Delia's heart. Yes. That's right.
Exactly. Like, not not a per like, a for sure a flawed character. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But he felt like a little bit of a precursor to Seth Cohen who was also, like, a very eligible fictional character who was also, like, deeply flawed and did some some messed up stuff.
Oh, yeah. No. He does not have a great track record. No. Absolutely.

(02:07):
Yeah. And not and with women too. Like, he also does some pretty crappy stuff to women. Yeah. Absolutely.
Pamela, if you have anything else that I thought that we would kinda close out on My So Called Life by talking about a couple of the, like, very direct impacts that you mentioned, which are that the creators of both Euphoria and Dawson's Creek, like, said that they had watched My So Called Life. Right? Yeah. And I don't remember if I said this, but I think also, Stephanie Savage, who co created The OC, was was really influenced by My So Called Life too. I feel like that's almost like the gold star t teen TV show that teen like, teen TV show creators since then have looked to.
Yeah. Kevin Williamson who created Dawson's Creek, like, studied the pilot of My So Called Life as he was writing Dawson's Creek, even just to figure out how to structure the show. That's perfect transition into Dawson's Creek, which is our next show. Dawson's Creek aired from 1998 to 02/2003, the most, like, quintessential y two k era, like, teen drama. Earlier this year, we had Colette Schade, who wrote this essay collection called y two k on some of the things that we talked about this, she had mentioned to me.
Like, she had mentioned the J. Crew catalog Right. And shoot to me. And she was like it was like just like such an iconic y two k, like, moment. Oh my god.
Have you have you, like, gone back? And it's crazy that all the images are out there on the Internet, and it's this odd time capsule. Yeah. I kinda love it. Some people get really, like I don't know.
It's, like, some people get really precious about things looking dated, but I kind of, like, love it. Like, I love to watch an early February, like, flip phone era. Like, I love seeing, like, what stage of the, like, weird I don't know. I feel like in the nineties to the, like, twenty tens when when iPhones became, like, ubiquitous, were so much more interesting for technology. I'm glad that we have that technology, like, on screen that we can remember because now it's just iPhone, iPhone, iPhone.
What phone do you have? Like, a fucking iPhone. I don't know remember. Right. Exactly.
And the story lines, are there a lot of things can be solved now by, oh, we texted each other. That too. Yeah. So much more story that could be developed when it's like, you couldn't text that or Instagram DM that. Totally.
Which is I feel like why sometimes people are going back. And, like, I do I do like that we're starting to see things set in the two thousands because we're starting to get people who are like, that would be them writing about their childhood. Right. Finally starting to be in the in the driver's seat. So I'm here for more, like, period pieces that are from, like, the times we were growing up, as long as you do it well.
Like, Didi, the movie that came out last year. I don't know if you got a chance to see that, but it's set in 02/2008, I think, the last summer before high school, which is the same as my last summer before high school. So it was, like I was, like, woah. But it's very, like, set in 02/2008 and, like, feels like it and, like yeah. No.
Wait. It's called Didi? D I d I. Yeah. Didi.
Okay. It's about, like, a Asian American, like, kinda nerdy boy who likes to skateboard. So they knew it was like they have does he, like, I'm just Yeah. Do all the I'm says Crash. Yeah.
Yeah. It's at times painful, but it's, like, very, very good. I wanna watch that. Yeah. Anyway, so y two k.
We're here. We're in 1998. So Dawson's Creek was actually one of the first shows to air on The WB. Like, The WB being in its infancy is crazy to me. Because, obviously, now we're in the age of the, like, completely destroyed CW.
So we're really, like be. Yeah. Seriously. So we're really from, like, the what it used to be at the very beginning. We kind of touched on this a little bit, but, like, what made Dawson's Creek so unique?
It was really interesting talking to Garth Ansear, who was an executive on The WB and then later went on to be the executive on NBC who ultimately canceled Freaks and Geeks. Like, that was another Ah. We're talking about sort of, like, recurring characters. It was so interesting to kinda hear his his side of everything. There's this oh my god.
I hope I get this quote right. But when they were when The WB was in its infancy, they didn't even call it a teen audience. They called it an alternative audience, which I thought was such a wild way of looking at the demographic. I think with Dawson's, it was the way they took teens so seriously, and that was so refreshing and so different. Like, they took the brush of a hand so seriously.
Like, they took eye contact so seriously. Everything that and they heightened what the what the teenage experience was. And I think they created, like, a an aspirational world that we hadn't really seen, but not like in a I feel like usually the aspirational world looked like rich teens, rich, beautiful teens, and these were very beautiful teens. But it was like a different kind of world you wanted to slip into. Totally.
Yeah. And, yes, you got it right because I had pulled that quote about the alternative audience because I also thought it was funny. Yeah. It was like, I think they were scared to use the word teen at the time. Yeah.
I guess. And then it was interesting that, like, yeah, the casting director talking about how, like, they did want traditionally attractive talent, apparently, saying that that's what helps Buffy, like, launch, which is interesting. And I also thought one quote that I thought figured we should definitely talk about was about the casting director again trying to get non white actors on the show and, like, ultimately failing. I think the the feedback she got was, like, I I don't think they would be friends. I can't remember exactly the quotes, but it was as she said, it was very coded language saying without saying that they didn't wanna hire actors of color as the main cast of the show.
Yeah. And it's interesting because the one like, the episode that we did about Dawson's Creek is about the, like, season three protest that happens with the the few characters of color are on the show when they have that, principal Green and his daughter come in. But it's interesting how, like, yeah, like like, it's like non and, like, you know, there's also the whole thing that's what's his name? Bodhi? Is that the name of Mhmm.

(02:28):
Joey's brother-in-law? Right. But it's like I don't know. And in some ways, I get it because it, like, Cape Cod really kinda is like that. Like, my friend, Liv, is from Cape Cod.
She's half white, half black, and she did not love it. We talked about it a lot, her being her mixed race experience on our episode about that. So it's like, in some ways, I'm like, yeah, it kinda makes sense. But in the other sense, it's just icky to hear it, like, behind the scenes of it confirming it, you know? Right.
And I feel like that casting director really did make an earnest attempt. And I think it's just she didn't really come from the world of TV. She came from, like, the the theater world in New York and, like, so she had this different background. And I think that was one of that was maybe one of the rare times that I had heard about a casting director trying to, like, not have just all white people as the stars of of the show. Yeah.
Absolutely. And then some of the stories of various actors from the main cast just being very like their characters, in my opinion, was this Katie Holmes not wanting to let her high school production of damn Yankees down story. That was so cute. And it was like her audition, right, for Joey that she was, like, one of that that felt very Joey. Yes.
Yes. I mean. Yes. And, like, what and she was so young at the time, and she would've, like, she's standing by her theater cast. Yeah.
Theater kid at heart, clearly. And then them thinking there was a pretentiousness about James Van Der Beek off the bat was hilarious. I am a committed Dawson hater. I'm not gonna lie. I I mean, I'm I'm very team Pacey, but I also just on his own, Dawson pissed me off.
And I think the fact that I finally watched Dawson's Creek all the way through right after finishing four years at Emerson College with a lot of film bros probably didn't help. But, like The projections were the opposite. Yeah. I know. But James VanDerby kills it.
Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. Like, even, like, especially season one Dawson when I think that is most, like, insufferable. And I, like, I think James VanDerBeek, like, he he, like, knew what he he knew what he was doing.
He knew what he had to do, and he, like, went for it. And then I think it's, like, towards the end Dawson becomes I feel like especially the last season, I think we get a better version of Dawson. Right? Does he get a lot less annoying? I mean, he is on a film set at the end, so I don't remember that much, but I have a feeling that he still managed to piss me off.
But listen, I I still loved Austins Creek. There's often that one character, you know? I thought it was also interesting. Something that you brought up was the fact that, apparently, there was, like, a point where he had, like, intense criticisms of the script. I don't think this is the last time that there's discussion of the cast not being happy with the direction of the show or not being happy with, like, what the writing has been like.
But, like, you had said that him and the showrunner couldn't look each other in the eye during the season finale shoot, and I was like, oh. Yeah. The impression I got was there was a a loss of trust that went on after because of all the shuffling that happened in season three. The creator left. There was, like, two new show runners who swiftly left, one of whom was Alex Gonza, who created 24.
I think I'm getting that right. And so it's sort of surreal to think of him doing Dawson's Creek. I know from what I heard, he did not particularly like doing it. He was the one who created the Eve storyline. So I think there was a little bit of, like, a loss of trust.
There was they were upset. It sounded like they were upset about the the Pacey Jen storyline when Pacey and Jen start hooking up. Like, the way I heard it was, like, they then went to the network and said, those two actors, like, absolutely not. Fair enough. Yeah.
Yeah. That was right. Yeah. That was a rough one. So I think season three was sort of what set set the stage for this this mistrust.
Yeah. Was the impression I got. Yeah. And we'll talk about it when we get to the OC, but I felt like it was kind of a parallel to some of the stuff that happened with the OC where I remember I think it was Tate Donovan who said something about how they were, like, very disinterested by the time that he was, like, directing. Right.
Right. And he I love that he was, like, very jovial about it. He was, like, yeah, he was, like, not feeling it. So, yeah. We talked about this a little bit, but there are a couple details I think we didn't mention yet, which is just about how the production made Capeside feel like such a dreamy setting.
And so, we also we shouted out One Tree Hill, like, my understanding is that a lot of Dawson's Creek crew ended up like, local crew ended up working on One Tree Hill because they kinda, like, just came in the town right after. I think so. I think and some of the directors, I kinda think the production designer from for Dawson's Creek also went on to One Tree Hill. Makes sense. Like Yeah.
Yeah. I remember I like, way back when I I did this interview with James Lafferty for another project he was working on, and he talked about kind of descending on Wilmington right when Dawson's Creek was filming his last episode and seeing Katie Holmes in the little square and, like, woah. Like, this is sort of like, as they were leaving, One Tree Hill was coming in. Still, Wilmington, North Carolina lives on through the summer I turned pretty, which also films there. So really just, like, the iconic teen drama, like, mecca.
Like, I need to do my, like, pilgrimage one day. It looks like the same. Right. They do, like, the One Tree Hill, like, fan conventions there, like, all the time. Like, it's crazy.
Anyway, some of the other things that I thought were really interesting were the fact that the opening credits were shot on a Bolex, which is really so, like, at Emerson, like, I was not in the film program, but a lot of my friends were. And that was, like, the first camera that I let you use famously, infamously. I don't know. So I was, like, that's so funny. You're so scrappy, like, so low budget.
It was you it's, like, so weird to think now. They're gonna wander around me, like, Katie, climb up a tree. Yeah. Like Which is yeah. Then you look back.

(02:49):
Like, I feel like I'm always gonna now look at the opening credits with different eyes because yeah. He's so scrappy with so little money, I feel like. Yeah. Absolutely. And there was I don't remember who this I can't believe I wrote this quote down without who said it.
Maybe you'll know. But one of the creatives said, I would always say Capeside is the kind of town where sunlight shimmers off the water, where the colors are golden and beautiful. I wanted every scene that showed Capeside to pull you in and make you wish that you live there. That was Paul Stupin who was Cool. Executive producer.
Yeah. I love that as a thesis statement for Capeside. And I loved he I think he said he said he's like, I still would love to live in Capeside. Like, he who was behind the scenes and, like, seeing the nuts and bolts still kinda wanted to live in this fictional place. Yeah.
I love it. And then we talked about the Twinkle Lights, and they specifically said the proms episode apparently was, like, the most Oh my god. Nine miles of Twinkle Lights on the riverboat alone. Yes. I think he was over between He was like, no more.
But I love that fact because now I feel like I'm not gonna be able to unsee that in a good way. I know. I yes. If you go back and watch Dawson's, make sure to look in the background. You will never not see them.
Yeah. I did. I went to Wilmington, and I was like, why does it not why is it not glowing? Like, ah, okay. There we go.
There we go. So let's also talk about Jack McPhee, one of our earliest out gay teen characters. And we have so many of them now that owe owe it to, you know, Wilson Cruz and Keir Smith, who I also was very happy that we talked a little bit about his time on Riverdale because, yeah, that was really fun. I thought they had it. They had a lot of like, I had a very tumultuous relationship with Riverdale, but one thing I'll say is that they did some amazing casting choices.
Like, the casting team on that, that's one team on that show I'll never complain about their creative choices. Yeah. And the first season was I was super into the first season. I was gripped. And then somewhere along the line, I think it got supernatural, and I got a little confused.
They're, like, trees. Yeah. I don't know. I always love hearing what what different points people dropped off of Riverdale, because most people dropped off at some point. But it's like Yeah.
Am I right that it becomes supernatural, or did I make that up? Ish, it sounds like you're talking about the season three plot line where they were doing Dungeons and Dragons, but there was also, like, a tree that was kind of attacking them. Okay. Yeah. Okay.
I'm sorry. Five. That's never true. That's what I'm saying. Oh, they got more supernatural after season.
Oh, no. They stopped after season like, mid season four. I was upset about choices they made. I had more to do with the relationships than anything else. And then I was in the fandom till it ended because I was still writing Bughead fan fiction for a while.
So, like, I know everything that happened, but I have not brought myself to watch it yet. I probably will eventually. There's a union plot line in season six, so I'm gonna have to eventually cover that. They sing bread and roses. Well, tell me what happens with the tree.
Oh, yeah. It's the gargoyle I actually love season three. If you're willing to, like, completely give yourself up to the fact that there's, like, a cult plot there's also a cult plot in that season. But the cult leader is Chad Michael Murray. Oh, okay.
Maybe yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, for the for the love of Chad Michael Murray, maybe I gotta go. Yes.
Like, so that brings us back to the Chris Smith's at all. Is that I love that they kept on bringing back, like, the the OG teen drama. So I mean, obviously, Mae Chin being in it is iconic. Luke Perry being in it, may he rest in peace, is iconic. So, yeah.
Talk about Jack. Maybe we can talk a little bit about how, like, Kevin Williamson originally, like, pitched this or basically told Kier, like, this is happening. Yeah. Yeah. It was I think Kier said that Kevin came into town and said, like, can we get some coffee?
And they went to a coffee shop. And if if I'm remembering correctly, I think Kier, like, sort of had a sense of maybe what was coming was that Kevin said, I I want Jack to come out of the closet, and Kevin himself is gay. And I think Kier said something like, give me a day. I'm gonna talk to everybody I know that I trust about this, and and I will get back to you. And he did.
And and then yeah. And then they, like, went full full speed ahead. And there was some I remember the scene he talked about. He he particularly remembered filming was the one where he comes out to his dad, and he's crying on the staircase and just, like, how emotionally draining that day was. I thought that scene was really beautiful and then bookended if you remember when oh, gosh.
Was it Ethan who breaks up with Jack? Is that what is it That sounds familiar. I sometimes I mix up his boyfriends, I feel like. Oh, gosh. I I think it was Ethan and then and then Jack, like, slides down the kitchen and he's crying.
And this time, his dad is there. And Yes. Tim was so beautifully done. Yes. I hope I'm getting that right.

(03:10):
I know what you're talking about though. So I feel like you're at least 90% right. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. And so, yeah, you talk about how, like, the response after that original coming out scene aired was immediate, and then he started getting letters, like, with personal stories from, like, queer teens who have been inspired to come out.
And, like, there was a really good quote in there where he, like, talked about how, like, it made him realize the responsibility of the character he was playing. Yeah. And there was I think there's a moment where he talked about he got a letter from a young man who said, after after I watched your coming out episode, I went downstairs and told my parents I was gay. And he I think he said that was the last piece of mail he could read just because he was worrying about these kids who were go I think he was like, I I don't know how his parents reacted. Like, I think it started to become a nerve wracking responsibility.
Yeah. That's actually, like, super understandable. And honestly, like, says a lot about his character as a person that he was, like, feeling that about every letter he wrote to the point where he's, like, got a red. That's the point where he's, like, I literally can't keep doing this because I don't have the, like, emotional capacity to hold all of this. Right.
And then he was worrying about these kids and, like, the that there was a protest outside of the studio after the first kiss. Like, I hadn't realized that until I started doing these interviews. Yeah. I didn't either. Yes.
Evangelical Christians are they love, to picket something that is ridiculous. Right. Right. Right. Like, gosh.
Yeah. Yeah. And then, I think the other thing that you touched on that I think I always love to hear when we're talking with Dawson's Creek is just, like, talking about the importance of the Jack and Jen friendship, because I I love that friendship, and I think it's really beloved for good reason. Yeah. Yeah.
And it was I think they were the funniest characters. They were you know, like, they're genuinely like, the comedy, I think, really came from the two of them in that relationship. And the writer, Gina, who I mentioned before, it was, like, the middle of season three, and things were feeling pretty dicey there. And she didn't really wanna lean into sort of the Eve storyline, so she kinda quietly pitched this idea of doing a Jack and Jen storyline, and and that it all it all came from there. I think that's my favorite thing when writers pitch, like, a little bit of an idea, and then it becomes, like, a staple of of the whole show.
Yeah. It's always cool to hear. And then, also, I was interested to read that the anti prom episode is inspired by California's Prop 22 back in February, which was, like, the defining marriage between a man and a woman, you know, homophobic ass proposition. Yeah. I and then I've always loved that storyline.
I, in famously did not go to my prom, so love an anti prom. But, yeah, I thought that was cool that they I've actually, like, you know, I'm always I always think it's cool when they pull from real life stuff like that. And I love that the the writer of that episode named the really homophobic woman, Barbara Johns, who after her friend who's just, like, super progressive woman, like That's so funny. The real life Barbara Johns is, like, a good person. Yeah.
Yeah. That's as long as your friend, like, thinks it's funny and has been all woke, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. I feel like the other thing you could do is, like, name it after someone you hate, but maybe that's just, like, the That might be getting rolled through dicey. Yeah. I know. I know.
Right? Libel. Yeah. And then, like, the there's that Toby and Jack in season four kissing for the first time was the first kiss I mean, men, for them. Was that, like, any sort of milestone in TV?
Or I guess that probably had already happened. Right? It was probably just groundbreaking for the genre more than anything else. I think it is. So it had already happened because I think Jack had kissed Ethan.
I think it was maybe Glad who, like, released a statement. I think it was Glad that released a statement that said, please fact check me if I'm wrong on that. But, like, they were, like they they counted the seconds of the kiss, and they're like, yes. This one was, like, eight seconds longer. They were, you know, they were like it was pushing because I think Ethan and Jack was was super short, and then this Jack and Toby were, like, a little bit longer.
So poor Toby. Toby loved Jack so much. I feel like Toby really, like, got the raw end of things in that relationship, but that's that's another detour. Yeah. Totally.
You brought up so many cool things, interesting stuff about you know, I mean, I'm a big Pacey and Joey fan, and so I was it was cool to see. I mean, I had heard this before, but that, like, the two actors, like, really had chemistry from the start. I know they, like, dated a little bit early on, but good for them being able to continue working together clearly after that. But, yeah, there are some sweet stuff in there, I feel like, for for a Pacie and Joey fan, if that's you and you haven't read this book yet. Yeah.
I loved hearing about that. The director what the director who directed the episode where they do this the school trip, they where they, like, wade into the water and Yes. Him about directing that episode and kind of the surreal special moment of, like, seeing that chemistry for the first time. Yeah. I I I mean, I I'm team Pacey, but also team maybe Joey needs to go find her own journey in Paris wherever she ends up.
Yeah. I would have definitely been okay with her, like like they kind of flashed forward to show you that Pacey and Joey ended up together. I, like, wish the flash forward had included, like, us knowing that she had done her fulfilling life before that. You know what I mean? Like, because I always like when people get the happy ending with, like but, like, I want them to have a happy ending not only romantically when it's a woman.
Yeah. I love I think my favorite quote just ever was Gina talk because Gina then I think Gina Gina and Tom Kavanos, they wrote the original finale, which had Right. Joanne Young with nobody Yeah. And her going off to Paris. And then Kevin Williamson came back and wrote the other finale where she ends up with Pacey.
And I love Gina talked about how she she ended up working as a writer on Gilmore Girls and how she also fought, like, no. Rory should not end up with Logan. Like, let's set her her on her, like, journalistic path. Like, I love that she was fighting fight for these these young women and, like, wanting more. Yeah.

(03:31):
Yeah. I am I'm a big time Logan hater, so I was really happy to read that. Thank you. I can't even I I I when they get together in the or when they're having their affair in the Oh, then reboot or yeah. Year in a life, whatever.
Yeah. Rory, don't do it. Yeah. Yeah. No.
That was just my my, like, childhood heart died at the way they depicted Rory Gilmore in the in the in the year in the life. I was just like, I loved you. You were you could've, you know, like the Tyra Banks quote, like, we were all rooting for you. We were rooting, so I know. I know.
I, like, I will I live on my heart, like, early seasons, Rory. Like, I like, season one Rory is my whole heart. Yeah. Totally. Totally.
This is a little thing, but, like, such is the power of Doss Creek. Next month, my fiancee and I are going to Wilmington to look for wedding venues to get married in Wilmington because, like, such is this is this is this place lives on as I think, like, to me, like, one of the more romantic places. And I don't know if it's the, like, power of TV, but I would like to tell my, like, 13 year old self, like, you're gonna probably get married in Wilmington, North Carolina. I think she would have been she would have been really happy. That's awesome.
I love that so much. Yeah. I actually one of the other teen drama podcasts that we're, like, mutuals, her name's Jillian, and she runs previously on teen TV. She just did her engagement photos in Wilmington, I noticed. Yeah.
And they did it at a bunch of, like, Nathan and Haley kinda, like, one because she's a really big One Tree Hill fan, like, kinda moment. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. I'm gonna go look for that. Yes.
She also does very, you know, shouts out to Jillian, does really fun teen drama content. Yeah. So that brings us to Freaks and Geeks, bringing us to 1999 to February, our other cult followed one season teen drama. I really thought it was funny how, like, one of the critics called it the anti Dawson's Creek, which is the perfect transition. So what made freaks and geeks so revolutionary?
It was I know. I it was very fun putting those two chapters back to back because, like, what right? Such different shows. That wasn't I think similar to My So Called Life, they really wanted to lean into, like, the reality of of being a teen and the awkwardness. And the the network over and over again kept saying, like, give these characters victories.
Give these characters victories. And Paul Feig and Judd Apatow, who were sort of the the well, Paul Paul Feig created the show. Like, I was like, no. That's not how high school works. You don't get these big sweeping victories.
Maybe you get small little moments, but it's about, like, you and your friends clinging together as you go through sort of the, like, shittiness and confusingness of being a teen. This was, I think, one of the rare shows at the time that let their actors improvise. Like, they embolden these young actors who were like, oh my god. Seth Rogen, like, Busy Philipps, all these these future stars to, like, find their own comedic moments and dramatic moments within within the format. And, like, alt lines, Judd Apatow would just call out lines.
And so it was a little bit more experimental and, I think, kinda raw in the way that they shot the show. Absolutely. I mean, it does feel more like and I think you say this. It feels it doesn't feel revolutionary now because I think geeks eventually got their moment, like you kinda said. But, like, they just like, the fact that it was, like, we're gonna talk about the burnouts and we're gonna talk about the geeks, like, was so revolutionary.
Like, usually, they're not the main characters. Yes. I love I mean, the pilot episode, it sets it up so perfectly in the beginning where they show the football player and the cheerleader talking about their feelings, and then they just pan down to the the burnouts. And they're like, that this is the showdown here. Yeah.
They thought it was very smart. Yeah. Another funny moment that I pulled was the fact that a character's love interest farted on television and how that was a big revolutionary moment. I really and I like that it was a, a woman too. Like, that that was another thing that the idea that, like, a young popular, like, pretty woman farts on TV was just, like, that didn't happen and still doesn't really happen.
And so similar to My So Called Life, for sure, the production of Freaks and Geeks seemed very carefully crafted to be as realistic as they could. So I figured we'd talk about some of the, like, cool facts that you shared in the chapter. And so they had, like, this visual manifesto that I thought was very interesting. Do you wanna talk about that at all? Yeah.
They had this whole manifesto for what the show should look and feel like, and they kind of said they should, like, look and feel like mini movies. And we're almost like they were looked at it like they were a documentary crew. Like, they're here to just tell the truth. And there it shouldn't be gauzy. It shouldn't be like, the production designer talked about how he presented the high school set to Paul Feig and Judd Apetown.
They're like, she looked kinda uglier. It's kind of, like, paraphrasing what they said. They're like, make it kinda scuzzier, and the color should be grosser. Like, this was this should really look like what high school looks and feels like. Absolutely.
And the casting director, Allison Jones, she was told to put together an ensemble of Misfits. And you wrote, quote, the main character shouldn't be cool, and they definitely shouldn't be WB network kids who are 25 playing 16, which is, you know, very much the WB formula that I make fun of literally in the opening theme of my podcast. And I thought it was interesting how Jones had literally just come fresh off of casting the pilot of Roswell, and she was actually quite happy for the change of pace, it seems. Yes. And then went on to cast The Office, which I feel like had a similar kind of vein that that ran through it, where it's like, let's cast people who who don't look like they would be on, like, a typical network TV show.
Exactly. Totally. Yeah. Another group of misfits. I I Right.
Speaking of another iconic opening sequence, we have Joan Jett's Bad Reputation in the Freaks and Geeks intro. You mentioned that it was shot in about fifteen minutes, which is, you know, very much like the Dawson's Creek intro, very scrappy. Yeah. Right. I think it was, like, you were just sort of, like, yelling at them.
Like, okay, next to you next. Okay. Look sad. Look happy. Look confused.

(03:52):
Okay. Next, next, next. Which is honestly very authentic to what picture day feels like. Yeah. I was just watching we're doing an episode on a Degrassi arc this season.
I was just watching the episode where, like, Ashley gets, like, rejected during picture day, and there's, like, the single tear going down her cheek, and then, like, pauses on it. I think I've never seen that one. What an interesting, like, cinematic choice. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Degrassi is very, very melodramatic. Deborah McGuire, the costume designer, she said it was like the Midwest threw up on the wardrobe of the characters, which is so true. And it's just it very much like My So Called Life feels, like, very authentic lived in. Linda Carnellini's character's, like, iconic green jacket. I had a jacket like that in college, and, Jeff, my husband now, would call it my freaks and geeks jacket.
Like channeling Lindsay. Yeah. Yeah. I also it was so I thought it was so interesting that Deborah McGuire was the costume designer for Friends and kind of Oh, yeah. To do ten seasons of Friends and to do I I don't there was must have been overlap.
I'm trying to think this Friends started in 1990 Yeah. '5, where it's just, like, the fashion was Rachel Green looking so cute in, like, her plaid skirt and her her baby tees, and then to go from that to so many, like, frayed bell bottoms and that blue puffy jacket. Yeah. Yeah. And this show was shot on 35 millimeter film, and, apparently, that was one of the biggest cost of production.
I thought a really fun story that you pointed out was that Freaks and Geeks shot so much footage that by episode 12, Kodak sent them a case of champagne. And then it was, like, maybe an f u to the network that they were spending that much money because the network was annoying them so much. Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah.
So that's actually the perfect transition into talking about how Freaks and Geeks clashed with NBC leading to its, you know, early demise. So yeah. Did you have any I think you go on anything of any details in particular that you wanted to point out from that dynamic? Well, I think the the interesting thing was, like, the time the time slots that nobody seemed to really know when it was gonna be on, that it was moved around so much. And that with Dawson's Creek, there was this this ethos of pick a time, give it a really great lead up.
I think the pilot came after Buffy, if I remember that correctly. And do not move that card. Like, leave them in that slot. And I think Friesen Keys was, like, all over the place. It it went off the air.
It came back on the air. I mean, they had that loyal following, but it was, like, to build a bigger audience, I think that was one of the bigger, like, downfalls for that show. Totally. You know, it's not every TV fan itself, you know, insane as me. If I always have to remember.
Like, some people are just gonna watch what is immediately available to them. Like, the people who always just watch whatever is on the front page of Netflix. I'm like, it must be so much simpler to be inside your brain than it even so. I know. I know.
You're not thinking about, what is the emotional landscape of what this show is gonna do to me right now? Yeah. Yeah. Like, can I handle Exactly? Also, another iconic cameo, I don't I'm very behind on, again, the front page of any streaming app, so I don't watch White Lotus.
But I did see that Mike White made an appearance. Yes. He is. He was a writer on Freezing Geeks and a writer on Dawson's Creek too. Yes.
It's wild. He wrote Kim Kelly as my friend, which I do think is one of the most, like, iconic episodes of Freaks and Geeks. Actually, teaser for the for the audience. We are gonna tackle Freaks and Geeks this season, finally. So I think that episode is gonna be one of the ones we probably zero in on later this year.
But the the thing that you pointed out was that because it was such a, like, painful glimpse at Kim's bleak home life, the network was so nervous they aired it later in the season than they originally were planning to. And this is, again, the same executive you had mentioned that you interviewed said that he wanted them to have victories. He wanted them to have less depressing lives. Yeah. Yeah.
I think if I'm remember remembering correctly, he talked about kind of, like, seeing that episode and just, like, oh, no. Like, that's another kind of really bleak thing is happening to these characters. It wasn't what he was looking for. Right. And Avatar's take was that sometimes a victory is just that you survive something with your sense of humor intact, which I thought was a good quote.
Yeah. That's Very high school. Yes. For sure. Yes.
And I guess, like, life too, maybe? Honestly, yeah. Adulthood is not not shaping up much better. Also, I did think it was worth briefly mentioning, and I'm glad that you included it, that James Franco's bad behavior started way back then even Yeah. Which, you know, some people are just walking red flags, man.
I don't know. Oh. I know that Busy Philipp story is horrible. Yeah. So, yeah.
If if you didn't somehow already know that James Franco is a fucking creep, now you know. And again, we are gonna, you know, as leftist team drama, expand on that eventually. Cool. So this brings us to the OC, 02/2003 to 02/2007. So I guess, to start, let's talk about how Josh Schwartz and Stephanie Savage had what they called a Trojan horse in their pitch for this show.
Yes. Well, so they were fans of Freaks and Geeks and My So Called Life. But, like, my guess is is that they saw that shows like that made it one season and then were pulled off the air. So they Yep. Really smart thing of kind of packaging the show in a very glossy, sexy, beachy way, and then kind of they knew that shoved inside were gonna be kind of the weird, awkward things they love so much about Teen TV, but they could get it past the network and keep it going if they created their Trojan horse of a show.
Yeah. I thought it was very funny that when they talk about, like, Thief in One and, like, actually getting renewed and how, like, Josh Schwartz realized he'd never really watched teen drama. Someone passed away on season. Right. Right.

(04:13):
He's like, oh, no. What's next? Yeah. I'm like, I love The OC. It's one of my, like, you know, I love I have the DVDs.
I love them. I had a couple of favorite episodes on my iPod growing up. But, like, it's an inconsistent show in my opinion. And you going through it from the perspective of all these creatives, like, kind of confirmed what is on the screen. Like, it's kinda like, yeah, I knew there was a story here.
It's quite like it's so crazy to think 27 season now. Like, what like, it's so unimaginable now. I can't wait. They went through so much story in season one. That could truly be, like, the entire run of, like, a Gen z era drama.
Really? Yes. Yes. It's really it's so and I don't I'm so curious how writers feel now. Like, do do they I mean, maybe they do want the twenty seven episode season or at least 22.
Like, at this point now, it's just eight and that's it. And it's, like, eight and you have to wait, like, two years in between the season. Right. But it's, like, you gotta be some people who just, like, forget they even watch that show. Yes.
You know what I mean? Like, people who aren't serious committed TV fans, people aren't who aren't like me and aren't, like, still on Tumblr in the year 2025, reblogging gif sets, like, yeah. Normal people. Right here. But yeah.
So Josh Schwartz and Stephanie Savage, if you're a TV teen drama fan, you know that name, that they are basically a brand now, I feel like. If you put their names on, like, a teen drama, it's like, okay. A certain amount of people are gonna watch that shit because of Gossip Girl, and I think they both had a hand in Marvel's Runaways. There's a couple others I I know, but I'm I'm do you know what what there's gotta be more. So I'm also blanking.
Did they also were they part of the Gossip Girl reboot? They might they might have been. I know that, like what's his name? Or was that? You know what I'm thinking of?
What? Looking for Alaska. They did Looking for Alaska. Right? Okay.
Yes. Yes. Anyway, they are definitely, like, teen drama royalty, and the OC is what kinda brought brought them together as a creative team and, like, you know, gave them the credibility to continue making teen shows. One of the thing that I think is notable is this and I knew this because I had listened to some of the OC podcast is that Schwartz was 26, like, about to turn 27 when he became the youngest showrunner on Netflix to network television. Crazy.
Wow. It's yeah. Yeah. It is, I feel like, so good that these young creatives, I just think they had more access to what it felt like to be that age. Like, I wrote writers rooms were stuffed with people who, like, weren't so far removed from the emotion of it all.
Even college, because college still has a lot of the feelings that high school had. And so I like there's one writer who talked about how in the writer's room, they were still, like, kinda talking about their relationships and, like, dating and, yeah, all the, like, breakups and makeups and all that. Yeah. Absolutely. One thing that I you know, it's not exactly the most fun thing to talk about, but I do think it was glad you included it.
And it's worth mentioning is that there were some, like, really anti Semitic network notes in the creation of the Cohen family. They were originally supposed to be the Needleman family, but they felt that felt too Jewish. I mean, I grew up in New Jersey, so, like, I grew up surrounded by Jewish people. So I'm like, I don't see how one of those is more Jewish than the other. But Yeah.
Yeah. It's crazy. It's it's wild. Yeah. And apparently, Jeff Goldblum was considered for the part of Sandy Cohen, what was considered too Jewish, which is, again, a huge big yikes.
So yeah. I mean, honestly, given all of that, it's quite a victory that they managed to have this family be Jewish. Well, the interfaith, really. And, like, have this groundbreaking Christmachah, like, influence. Like, people still talk about Christmachah.
Like, I feel like it gave, like, a voice to kids who had more than one religion in their in their family. Yeah. And I think then they were not super jazzed in the beginning about having, like, Adam Brody on posters and, like, that which also feels, like, a little bit coded in a way that they weren't as excited about the Seth Cohen character as they were the Ryan Atwood character. Wild. Because I feel like Seth Cohen is such a breakout character.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And right to this day. Right?
Yeah. And Adam Brody, like, killing it. Absolutely. Yeah. I have not watched nobody what?
Nobody wants this? Is that what it is? I haven't watched it yet, but I've heard it's really fun. I I struggle a little bit with the Jewish depictions in there too. I also heard a lot of that.
I've heard a lot of that. Yeah. Well, I have my own feelings about that. But I I mean, I I devoured it. But yeah.
Sure. Sure. But it's set in LA. Right? Which is the part that makes it even more, like, confusing, because it's like, that's one of the few places in The US where there is a concentrated Jewish population.

(04:34):
Right. And it's exactly. And, like, it's confusing why, like, the Jewish women are, like, the way they're I'm just so curious once you watch it, but, like, the way Jewish women are portrayed is, like, yikes. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. That's, you know, not surprising to me. So anyway, it it is still something that, you know, as we've just said, is not always represented great. And so it was cool that they managed to do it at all in 02/2003. Yeah.
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And, you know, I I always remember the the episodes that have the grandmother. I think they call her the nana.
Those are always like, you know, some of the most, like, intensely Jewish episodes, I feel like, and they're a really fun time. And so we talked about it a little bit already, but the the famously long first season, one fact that I thought was really interesting was the fact that the first seven episodes were, like, written kind of, like, together in a package almost before, like, it cut it makes so much sense, like, honestly. Like, the first seven episodes do feel like a very cohesive, like, narrative. And then, like, not that things go completely off the rails. I love season one of DFC, but it definitely, like, that makes so much sense to me.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Oh, my gosh. And I just the the finale of season one with the Jem song, maybe I'm amazed. Yeah. The music of the OC is Oh my god. Burned in my sometimes I'll go on YouTube and I'll just watch that last scene.
Yeah. They had so many good musical moments on the OC. I'll always think I mean, like, this is one of literally, I was saying before I had episodes on my iPod. I had the Rainy Day Women on my iPod because I was a huge Stephen Summer fan and the champagne supernova, like, cover that happens when they, like, reunite with the Spider Man kiss. Oh my gosh.
Yeah. Yeah. I love how unapologetically, like, romantic that all Yeah. Is. Yeah.
Totally. And, like, in a very, like, Seth Cohen way. Mhmm. At the same time. Yes.
Yes. And, yeah, it's actually very funny. So, like, one of my, like, abandoned bug heads it's a bug head and a varchie Riverdale fanfic is where, basically, they are Ryan and Marissa and Seth and Summer. I literally had seven chapters outlined, like, to be the first seven episodes of The OC. And I was like, this is so funny because, like, it is so well structured that even me trying to, like, do an homage to it, like, was able to, like, envision the story for the seven chapters.
Does this exist somewhere? Is it on It's on archiveofourown.org and probably will never be finished, but it's there. Okay. You can read it. I'm sure I I think I saw in your list your notes.
You mentioned that your fan fic, and I was like, I would like to know more about this. Yeah. No. I have written a lot of Bughead fanfic. I haven't written in a, like, over a year now because I've been busy with this and with that book chapter I'm writing.
But, yeah, Justice for Fanfic Forever, I think it's such an important art form. Yeah. I have a lot of online friends who I was really in the fandom trenches of Riverdale with who I I love to this day. I know. I've heard that, like, a lot of friendships have sprung up from fan fiction.
Yes. Yeah. Definitely. It's it's it's I mean, it's like a really cute reciprocal relationship sometimes when you and a friend are, like, both riding for the same ship, and you can just, like, love on each other's work. So Yeah.
And, like, keep the world going even though Yeah. Once it's done, keep that going is really cool. Totally. So as I mentioned before, they weren't really sure what to do with their 27 episode order, but they they did it. What a what a time to be alive.
Not the time we're in now. That's for sure. We were kinda just touching on this, but The OC is one of the most iconic teen dramas in terms of creating those romantic shipping moments that felt really, like, unique, I feel. Like like we were saying, like the Spider Man, you know, it's not unique because it is an homage to Spider Man the movie, but, like, it's unique for a teen drama character to be falling off a roof wearing a Spider Man hat while having, like, one of his most iconic romantic moments. So I thought that you had some interesting insights to some of these scenes.
So, like, the iconic Marissa Ryan pilot scene, for example. There was some interesting stuff about how magical that moment felt when they were filming it. Yeah. Like, the winds are just coming and and brushing her hair, and everyone on set was like, oh, oh, my gosh. Yeah.
It was, like, so so cinematic. Yes. And then there's the interesting maybe you can tell, the story of her of the smoking of a cigarette and how it was never allowed again. Oh, yes. Right.
I think yeah. I think that was the one time they got they got away with having a cigarette on screen and the Yeah. Time and the last time. Yep. So that's it's just so funny because, like, I feel like when you're looking at, like, y two k nostalgia, like, that scene is one of the scenes I see over and over again.
Like, who are you? Whoever you want me to be is iconic. And it's so funny that, like, without the cigarette, it would not be the same scene, but it's the only time. Right. Right.
Even though, like, you feel like Ryan must be smoking, like, a pack a day, you feel like. But I guess that's Yeah. Private in in his little house in the back. You know what? No wonder he was so fucking cranky.

(04:55):
He was just some quitting figure ass. I know. That was the the story line we didn't see was he had a hatch on. He was giggling with that. Like Like, literally.
I think we should have given him a break. And then another really interesting fact that I think I may have heard before was the fact that Rachel Bilson was not supposed to be as big of a role as she ended up being, and that she kinda won them over. And Summer is one of the most iconic, you know, Mean Girls with me and my friend, Haley, always call them Mean Girls of a Heart of Gold. When they start out mean, but end up, like, not only not being, like, complete assholes by the end, but also having, like, a really, like, empowering arc Yeah. Which, like, you know, happens to, like, Brook Davis and, like, Gap.
And then there was an interesting Sanford Book Staver, who was one of the directors. He had talked about how it seemed like, basically, Adam Brody and Rachel Bilson's, like, way of working and, like, Misha Barton and Ben McKenzie's ways of working almost, like, meshed with each other. It almost felt like those relationships decided they were gonna be what they were because of the dynamics of the actors working. Right. Like, Adam Brodie and Rachel Bilson, he said, liked improv.
Like, they work sort of into that, whereas Ben McKenzie and Misha Barton were very much on the page. And I feel like you can feel that in the the lighthearted banter and then the kind of the beautiful poetic way that Ryan and Marissa spoke to each other. Absolutely. And, yeah, my one claim to claim the same, it's not even claim the same. When I was on the 2023, like, a stag slash WGA picket line in New York, I spotted Ben McKenzie and his wife on the picket line.
And I they were talking to someone. I'm not that kind of person who's gonna stop them, but I did get, like, a picture from far away. I was like, yes. He's wearing a leather jacket. It was summer, so he was just he was wearing he was wearing a union shirt, I think.
Okay. Good. I think. Yeah. And then Patrick Norris shows up again.
This was a great parallel. He directed the first kiss between Ryan and Marissa and apparently referenced Jordan and Angela in his, like, approach to directing it. Yeah. I think he kinda wanted to feel natural, like, when he picked up from his My So Called Life Days, he kinda just wanted them to lean in and do it and, like, capture that awkwardness and capture the two of them kinda pulling back and the look they gave each other. So I I think if I'm if I'm right in saying what he said was that it was, like, let's not rehearse it.
Let's just get on there and let's do it. And I think you can feel that with the kiss. That that was a good TV kiss. Yeah. And that was a big build up.
Like, they were, like, romantically involved for a while before they actually kissed, I feel like. Yeah. One thing that was really interesting and, like, kind of, like, I get what like, it makes sense that Josh Schwartz was so young. It was, like, the fact that they were really reading the fandom message of words, like, an amount that I would not do if I wrote for a TV show. I know.
I know. I it's the same, like, I went on Goodreads to look at the book, and I was like, wow, I can't I can't do this for my Oh, my god. I totally get that. Feel so sad when I see some of the stuff. And, like, nerves of steel to look at that kind of, like, television without pity.
Absolutely. Yeah. My my friend Laura, who's been on a couple times, she always says that she was, like, raised by television without pity. Like, that was, like, her OG, like, fandom experience. Actually, I feel like if I was right, then I'd be like, okay.
People don't seem to be liking the storyline. Let me pivot. Like, I yeah. So But then some people probably do. And, like, you know, it's just you can't please everyone.
And there was intense hatred for Oliver even back then. I mentioned before, my friend Maya has been texting me her reactions. She texted me, like, is this Oliver shit gonna end? Like, she was so she hated it. But that feels like a definite like, they got 27 episodes and they didn't know what to do, so Oliver came on the scene.
I I love the unified. Just everyone was like, I hate Oliver. Yeah. There were no Oliver apologists out there I don't that I know of. I have never met one.
And then, of course, we we could not do this episode without mentioning that Misha Barton was, like, super duper bullied and scrutinized by the media, in particular, Perez Hilton. Ugh. I think he had, like, a terrible nickname for her. Yeah. And they would, like, drop penises and stuff on these actresses, and it was really gross icky time and would, like, take up the I don't think him, but other peep like photographers would take upskirt photos and yeah.
That was terrible. And so I I do think I've seen Misha Barton kinda speaking out in recent years about that treatment, and I'm glad because I feel like she's in the same category with, like, the, like, Lindsay Lohan's of the world of being one of, like, wrongly maligned women of the early two thousands who deserve to deserve upon apology. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Yes. Yes. So then, like, I guess, like, that brings us into the fateful decision to kill Marissa off, which I do think ultimately killed the show, because they only got one more season after it. I don't know. Maybe it's debated, but I feel like there's a parallel there.
But I thought what was really interesting is that they did not expect people to, like, actually be upset. Yeah. I She's like, I thought you were reading the porns. I don't get it. Well, it's so interesting because I think I think they realized afterwards, like, how much fans cared about Marissa.
I can't remember if it was Josh or Stephanie who said, like, their mom is still mad about that. That in the spotlight, I can't remember who said that. People really cared. Yeah. And I think that, like, there were just people who want especially because, like, she's obviously a tragic character.
They decided that she was and she they doubled down on that, which I think you mentioned in the book in season four when they have the Christmas caja, which is like the alternate universe where she dies in Tijuana because Ryan wasn't there to save her. Right. So the idea being that she was always fated to die, and it does feel like the writers were kinda like, I promise she was gonna always die. Right. Right.
Right. Right. This was a tragic character. Right. But I do understand the people who wanted to see this character win after all of the shit that she was put through as such a like, you know, she is one of the most dramatic teen drama characters of all time.

(05:16):
I say that perfection. Like, I mean, I literally have a t shirt that I wore at my birthday this year about the season two finale, like, what you say moment. Like, just so many iconic moments, and the time she screams and pushes pool furniture into the pool. Like, it's just yeah. And anytime she said, hey.
The rest was Misha, where she really nailed like, I loved her her well, also, he did it too, didn't he? They did it to each other. Totally. Yeah. But yeah.
Is there anything else you wanna talk about with, like, season four or anything? Basically, ratings continued to fall, and then they got canceled. But I don't know. As we said before, I still think that season four is worth watching, and I did like the way that they ended it. I love that.
That's another, actually, a place where, like, I feel like it's almost similar to what happened with Joey and Pacey, except for they did, like, make care to show that Summer went and did her thing with her environmental activism. And then they eventually got married, but, like, she did not give up anything of her own personal, like, passions in the meantime, I really loved. Yeah. I really yes. And I can't believe I'm forgetting Autumn Reeser's name.
Oh, Taylor. Taylor. Taylor. Yeah. I kinda love Taylor.
I know that I maybe I might be in the minority with that. I think she brought some levity to to his life. He was so brooding. He needed a little, like, chaotic, fun presence. Totally.
Yeah. I, like, definitely, like, if you were to ask me, do I prefer Ryan and Marissa or Taylor and Ryan, I obviously prefer Ryan and Marissa. But I don't dislike watching the Taylor and Ryan dynamic. I think the season's fun. Yeah.
So Yeah. So that brings us to Friday Night Lights, which aired from 02/2006 to 2011. As we've discussed, the showrunner of this show got his start on My Sook of Life. So this show definitely leans into the natural. So, yeah, we wanna talk a little bit about maybe how they started to achieve that even from the beginning.
Yeah. Well, that was an interesting one where they didn't do rehearsals. They didn't put marks down. The actors were kind of invited to walk wherever they wanted, and the cameras would just follow them. It was very guerilla filmmaking.
And I think you would feel it really when you're watching it. Totally. But it was I mean, it was it took a lot of effort to make that happen. I remember one director was I think it was a director who was telling me how, like, from then on, whenever he'd go into interview for a show, they'd be like, well, we're looking to make the Friday night night lights look. And you have to keep being like, well, it's a little more complicated than you think.
Like, they just were like, let's make that look happen. But they did really cool things, like, during the New York episode. They just, like, went on the subway, cameras in hand. It was a really it was, like, a very scrappy production and you feel it, but also, like, super like, they filmed really, really complicated sports sequences, and they, like, put their heart and soul into that show. And I'm really not a sports person, but, like, that show made me love football in a way that I never thought I would.
Oh my god. Yeah. You had a very funny line in the book where you said that after you finished, you asked your roommate to do, catch with you, I think it was. Oh, no. And they were like, no.
I I had a really weird moment where I was like, do I wanna learn how to play football? And I looked online to see if you could, like, hire a football coach, and then no one wrote back to me. I was, like, got, like, very intense in it. But, yeah, I think it was I think as I tried to sort of get to the bottom of it, but they're really like about how they did that. But they the whole thing were the was the characters.
As long as you really cared about the characters, that was gonna make you care about the game. Absolutely. It was interesting that, like, they knew they wanted the actors to, like, improvise from the beginning. So, like, that was, like, in the auditions. One thing that I thought was very funny was, like, somebody pitching that, like, we need Kyle Chandler because, like, the older women need to have someone to lust after.
That was great. Yes. Yes. Also, I knew this was based on a movie originally, Friday Night Lights, same name. But I didn't realize Connie Britton was in both, and that she it was very interesting that apparently her character was so two dimensional or one dimensional, whatever you whatever one you wanna say, in the movie that she had to be convinced to sign on because, like, her character is so rich and amazing, obviously, in the show.
Yes. Yeah. I think she had to kinda be promised, like, this is gonna be an interesting character. She's gonna have layers and edges and, like yeah. I barely I remember watching it and not she's really not in it that much.
You see shots of her at the bleachers. Buddy is in it. I don't know if you Oh, really? I've never actually seen it. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. If you go back and rewatch, you'll see Buddy. Just out of people. Yeah.
What a funny character. Yeah. And yeah. They were just, like, very scrappy and just very cool how, like, the description of, like, the all the camera operators just, like, following the characters around. And one of the directors, Liddy Brown is her last name, she said we would just chase the emotions Mhmm.
Which is, like yeah. It doesn't you kinda feel that when you're watching it. Yeah. Like yeah. This was, like, always a critically acclaimed show, but, I guess, didn't necessarily always match the ratings.
One thing that I thought was interesting and that you really chronicle well here is, like, kind of, like, up and down thinking they were gonna cancel, like, roller coaster ride they were kinda on. Yeah. And there was one season finale where they thought it was the end, so they they put so much care into that final shot and used a crane and everything. And then they're like, oh, no. We're gonna get another season.

(05:37):
It was when they were going to East Dillon. Right? Yes. Like, we wouldn't have act we wouldn't have actually seen East Dillon if it had ended. Exactly.
Yes. And then, like, I almost, like like, I've watched Friday Night Live, so I almost forgot that, like, that was an early Michael b Jordan role. Yeah. And so, like, the story he had, like, a crazy audition story in the in the book. Right?
I think so many of them were, like, Peter Berg was, like, okay, now I'm the president of The United States, and you're this. And now, okay, let's go. Like, it was like yeah. They were like Yes. That's definitely what it was.
And this was if I'm correct, Michael b Jordan was already on the wire at this point. Oh my gosh. Actually, I don't know. I don't know which I think he probably would have been, though. I think you I think you're right.
Yes. But yeah. Like, young Michael b Jordan on that show is so good. And Yeah. Yeah.
And I also thought it was really interesting all of the anecdotes about how, like, Kyle Chandler is really basically Eric Taylor in real life, and how he would give these, like, pep talks to, like, cast and stuff. Yeah. I think there were actors who talked about how they were sitting in the I mean, I was about to say rehearsal studio. What am I talking about? That's very glee of me that I said that.
I love it. The locker room and how they'd be, like, sweaty and cold, but they really felt like they were hearing their coach talk to them. I love it. Obviously, like, the influence of Winnie Holesman is all over this this show, and there was a lot of, like, ways that you pointed it out. The way the dialogue is written is very similar.
And then, we mentioned this a little bit already, but, like, the open line of communication between the actors and the writers, we were talking about how the actor who plays Smash was concerned about the direction of his character and, like, actually had his, like, concerns taken into account. Yeah. And this is funny. There was I pulled where that actor had said that, like, when he went on to other shows, he was like, woah, there are, like, marks I needed to stand on. I can't ad lib my life.
I know. I know. It's it's sort of like a confusing precedent, I think. Yeah. Exactly.
Because that was also one of the things in the casting was that they specifically asked for people with little to no credits, which I wish they would do more specifically in the realm of book adaptations. That's my you know what I mean? Like, I just feel like a lot of the times, like, you you have this idea of what a character looks like in your head, and then it's like, okay. Well, that's gonna be Sydney Sweeney. And you're like, okay.
Well, you know, like, no offense. Love you, Sydney Sweeney. Right. Like, it would be cool if you guys actually, like, looked for, like, an unknown actor who could embody this role, and then, like, also we could find a new talent, and I don't know. I just always felt that way that's specifically both adaptations.
That's so interesting. I wonder if they're gonna do that for oh, gosh. I had a hard time with this book. It was it's a it's the big the big romantacy book. It's not the one about the fairies.
It's the one with the dragons. Oh. I I guess I don't know which one is which because I don't read the romantacy. Okay. I probably got cured of it.
Yeah. I'm so curious with that. Are they gonna get someone big or are they gonna go I I assume they're gonna get somebody big. But it would be cool to, like, find a, you know, like, a new face for that. Yeah.
It was just totally studio's fault, I'm sure, like, all the way around. But, like, yeah. Another thing that you talked about in the Friday Night Lights chapter is just, like, the kind of the impact of many of the groundbreaking story lines. I thought it was really interesting hearing about the impact of the grandma Saracen, like, dementia story line, and, like, they even got, like, an award from the LA Alzheimer's Association. That was sweet.
Then also Becky's abortion. I had completely forgotten Becky got an abortion. That is very brave of them. They did. Yeah.
And pretty unprecedented. I feel like I need to cover Becky's abortion that I had forgotten about because we've covered the Manny Santos band in The US Degrassi abortion episode before and stuff. And, like, most American shows just don't do it. No. Most American shows, they either adopt or they, like, keep a baby.
Yeah. It's a great episode. I I think that would be a cool one to do a deep dive on. And, like, what an interesting like, that was a a really young actress who, I think, didn't have a lot of credits to her name and, like, what a meaty, like, interesting and I think she knew at the time, like, what a big what a big deal it was. Yeah.
There was one really beautiful story about, like, one of the women on the production team walking over and holding her hand, and apparently, her big sister had gotten an abortion pre Roe v Wade, which is, like, you know and we're post Roe v Wade. But anyway, Madison, like, the actor who plays Becky, knew that something awful must have happened, and, like, it kind of helped her understand, like, the importance of the episode. Yeah. Despite thus thinking that the show was gonna be canceled several times, it actually got five seasons. And one thing that I think was really interesting was the fact that they always knew that Tim Riggins was gonna be the one character who, like, wouldn't leave, which is yeah.
Totally. Yes. Another, we did an episode about Tim Riggins' arc being abolitionist because of the whole prison plot line and the fact that he only ever ended up in prison basically because they were too poor to get by. Despite I think Tim Riggins is such a good, like, flaw to suck character that you still root for no matter what. You know?
Yes. Yes. And, like, when he sits there in that last beautiful shot of Texas forever, like, Yeah. Poetry. My dog over there in the pit is named after him.

(05:58):
Her name is Riggins, and she has she has his scrappy spirit. Yeah. Her Lorelei, and she also has her scrappy spirit. I love it. That's amazing.
So I thought a good place to end with the Friday Night Lights after is this anecdote that you shared about the whole group going out to a honky tonk bar the night that they've wrapped. And then they eventually ended up going to the Panther Stadium and doing, like, one last game of, like, pick up the ball or whatever. And I'm like, that's so cute. I love that. I wish we could see footage of that.
But, yeah, Friday night lights was just I mean, such a groundbreaking show. This brings us to the last show, which is Glee in 02/2009 to 2015. This is the one show that well, I I guess Fresh Prince and Glee, the beginning and the end are the only shows I haven't seen all the way through. Like, I was a first season Glee watcher who fell off. Again, I know they talk a lot, so, eventually, I will probably go back and watch the whole thing, and we'll cover it.
But yeah. So everyone knows Glee. Even if you didn't watch it at the time, you knew that it was on, you know. And when you touch on this, and we'll talk about it, but, like, all over the iTunes charts at the time, like, just they were such a phenomenon. And so I think what's really interesting is that after so many networks, for all of the shows pretty much that you talk about in the book prior to Glee, they were being questioned constantly by the creators as they were trying to conceive these shows.
But then Fox kinda just embraced clearly being genre defying. So, like, yeah. Let's talk about that. That's pretty wild. Yeah.
And, like, maybe, you know, we have, like, American Idol to thank for that. Maybe there's, like, there's that. But I like I like to think and part of my thesis is sort of, like, we just reached a point where, like, all these teen TV shows had broke down so many doors that, like, look. This chapter right before was Friday Night Lights, and that was pretty genre bending in its own way. But they're like, yeah.
Why not? Let's do a kind of wild, crazy musical show where, like, some of the craziest story lines I've ever seen happen. And it was okay. Yeah. I know multiple people.
At the very least, I know the showrunner of Riverdale at some point was on the Yeah. And it's just so much sense. Yeah. And like and, like, I say with all love, like, that like, there was some crazy like, sometimes I'll see something online and people are like, oh, right. Remember when this happened to, like, Quinn?
Or in fact that the first season, Finn thought that Quinn had his baby because they'd, like, immaculate conception or, like, something like that. Yeah. Sort of yeah. I remember that. But yeah.
So you have this quote from the Fox president at the time who says, like, the show is unconventional. It's a bit genre defying. It's got music, but it's not a musical. It's got comedy, but it's not a comedy. It's set in high school, but it's not a high school show.
And so then he also said it was, like, sweetened uplifting, but not saccharine. It's got edge and attitude. Yeah. I feel like your book allowed me to, like, think of how the executives were thinking up until this time. And so this definitely just feels like a departure where, like, they they really were, like, out there, like, advocating for this weirdest function.
Yeah. Right. Exactly. They were, like, fuck it and, like, let's celebrate it. Like, let's celebrate the fact that it can fit into a box.
Like, go for it. Absolutely. And so some other interesting things from kind of, like, the conception of the show is that, like, I always love hearing that a part was created for an actor. Chris Colfer's Kurt was created for him. The fact being that before his part was created, there hadn't been a gay character written into the Glee pilot, which is wild.
Yeah. You know, I couldn't wrap my head around that. His audition is on YouTube. If you ever wanna go check it out, you can see the first time he comes in, you can, like, hear the click for Ryan Murphy when they talk about The Sound of Music and how he played Kurt. Yeah.
I'm sure it's Kurt. Yeah. Right. That's where his name, like, comes from clearly. Yeah.
That's awesome. And then the high school show choir room, which is really, like, you know when you think of, like, kind of, like, these iconic sets that get used over and over again in teen shows, obviously, like, they had to use this choir room so much and how it was loosely based on Murphy's memories of his own high school choir room. And they all talked a little bit about how they had to get creative about where they were gonna have the dance number so that it wasn't literally always in the show choir room. This seems like it would have been a really I mean, we'll talk about the tension aspect. It seems like it would be a really hard set to be on.
Yeah. I remember with my, like, deep Riverdale fandom days, and they would do the musical episode every year that, like, they would always talk about how hard it was to, like, do that episode. And I'm just, like, your entire show is that episode. Every episode. Yeah.
Like and multiple, like, so many songs. Like, it was really wild and interesting to go behind the scenes of that and talk to the people who, like, the cinematographer and what was that like capturing the choir room. It was so specific. I remember him talking about capturing, because you're not only just capturing the performance, you're also capturing everybody reacting to the like, there was a story that was going on with the performance, and there was a story going on in the bleachers. There was, like, four stories going on in the bleachers.
So, like, that cinematographer had a wild journey capturing, like, nine stories in one song. There was this part where one of the members of the production, last name is Keane. I don't know if you would remember what Elodie. Position? Elodie.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. She had said, so much prep went into each one of these episodes from prerecording the music to setting the choreography, and she thought that's never going to happen.
The scripts are gonna start coming in late, and all of a sudden, everybody's gonna start to scramble. And she was right. That neat template lasted only a few episodes into the first season before things unraveled, and, I can only imagine. Oh, by the way, shout out to Elodie Keane who directed the episode where Wilson Cruz comes out. Oh, okay.

(06:19):
Yeah. Yeah. Another full circle. I'm always, like, so pleased this one, like, that everyone comes full circle. Yes.
But, yeah, I digress. No. That's awesome. And then I also had the this is a quote we were talking about earlier where Tate Donovan says that this was a 80 degree difference from directing the teens on The OC. The Glee kids were so hardworking, and they were just intensely into the show and into their characters.
If they weren't shooting a scene, they were rehearsing a dance number or recording a song. It was like theater camp twenty four hours a day. Yes. Honestly, it's not surprising that there was so much, like, drama. It's I'm, like, exhausted just thinking about having to do all that.
But there was, like, I if I'm remembering correctly, I feel like there was a lot of joy. Like, I remember even talking to Tate, like, the the sort of the thrill of figuring out the musical numbers. And one of my favorite interviews was was with one of the writers who talked about how, like, early on, his only job was to write the song descriptions, like, to write what and the kind of what it was like to creatively figure out, okay. This person's gonna look at this person. And, like, it was a it was a small job, but it was, like, the little intricacies that only, like, you're working on Glee.
As a writer, you're writing, like, like, a really cool Michael Jackson number. Totally. Yeah. And then, yeah, they did such a spectrum of of songs from so many different genres. So that brings us really well into the yeah.
Just, like, it wasn't just a show. It was, like, a whole phenomenon. So, like, you write that by 09/20/2009, Glee's version of Don't Stop Believing, which retailed on iTunes for $1.99. What a time. Mhmm.
Had been downloaded 400,000 times, and then, like, five of the covers cracked the iTunes top 100, and Glee fans became Gleeks, and the tour was set. And, yeah, you went to the tour, right, which you read about in the book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Do you wanna talk about that at all? I thought yeah. I had obviously not been on the tour, but I remember having friends who were self identified gleeks that had done so. Oh, yeah. I it was honestly maybe one of I think I'd seen an Eagles concert, but other than that, that was my first big concert.
It was wild. I remember when they started singing Don't Stop Believing. It was like it was like The Beatles. Yeah. Like, I was wearing, like, a a Rachel Berry.
Like, there's this tumbler. I think it's called Fashion of Glee, and they identified all the clothes. So I'd, like, found the dress that Rachel wore when she sang Firework, and I was wearing that. I was, like, deepened. I was deepened.
Yeah. Love it. It was also, like, Steve Perry apparently saying he was grateful to Glee for allowing a new generation to be introduced to their songs, which Yeah. It's really kinda, like, refreshing that that was the take. Because I could see people being really snobby about the idea of this teen show, like, doing an homage to your song and then, like, you know I don't know.
Maybe the idea that, like, oh, if you discovered the song via Glee, it's you're not a real fan or something. I feel like I could see people thinking that way, but I think it's a really refreshing point of view that just, like, it just brought a new audience to the original, you know, source material. And maybe teen shows were starting to get more respect at that point. Like, maybe there was less of this sort of Right. Genre, knew the kind of the power of these shows at that point.
Totally. And so one other thing that I think is interesting, and we've you know, we didn't talk about it actually a ton, but, like, what each show chooses to do once the characters, you know, graduate. And, like, some do the time jumps, some, you know, like, the Office of the Creek fully go to college. And they kinda did, like, the multi gen approach while allowing their original characters to still, like, be us to follow their, like, adult journeys. I thought that was interesting.
And also, it launched the Glee project, which I felt we must Yes. Yeah. I was very invested in the Glee crowd. Did you watch it? My sister did.
So my my sister watched Glee for longer than me. I don't know if she actually watched the whole thing or not, but she definitely and so, like, it was happening around me, you know. And, like, I remember her watching The Glee Project, and I probably watched a couple episodes of her. That was probably around the same time we watched The Legally Blonde, The Musical, Search for You L. Yeah.
Yes. Like, I feel like that was kind of a vibe back then. Yes. I loved that too. I don't know how that one holds up.
I haven't seen that in a long time. I mean, I love that musical. That's all I can say. Like, there were a lot of, like, big names came out of the Glee project, like, Alex Newell Yeah. Ali.
Oh, my gosh. She was there was she had blonde hair. Yeah. There was, like, a lot of big yeah. They, like, had a pretty good success rate, I feel like.
Yeah. And, you know, kind of relatedly, the obvious impact of Glee, for better or for worse, which I kind of think that you, like, kinda touched on in the book, is is that it did represent underrepresented and marginalized communities. And I think that you kind of touch on the fact that maybe some people feel like they did it a little heavy handedly almost. But Kurt's coming out story and his dad being, like, just like, okay. Yeah.
Like, that was super impactful. There is a discussion of the coaches abuse story line. You also obviously, the scene where Santana comes out to her grandmother and is rejected, the opposite of Kurt's experience. So you've touched on some really important moments that happened in the show. Yeah.
And I thought it was interesting that the Kurt's storyline when he came out to his dad was almost like a from what I gather, like a wish fulfillment for Ryan Murphy who, like, came out to his dad and had a very different reaction. So he wrote the scene as he wished it had come come out. Whereas the Santana scene was exactly what happened to one of the writers on the show, and she basically kinda, like, wrote what happened. So there's, like, the the wish fulfillment, and then there's also the, like, reality of what happened. And so we can't talk about Glee, and you couldn't write about Glee without, unfortunately, talking about the tons of tragedy and tensions that are inherent to the set of the show.

(06:40):
So, I mean, first of all, there's Lea Michele being called out for her bad racist behavior on set. That was also kind of reflected, I feel like, in some of the dialogue. You write, quote, for all Gleaves, lessons of kindness and acceptance, there could be an ugly edge, particularly when it came to the dialogue, which readily poked on at people's race, religion, or weight, and voice deeply specific criticisms of the actor's physical appearances, end quote. So I I think there was one person who talked about Lea Michele who said something along the lines of, like, it almost was, like, validating her behavior in the way that, like, Rachel Perry was, like, you know, validated for the same behavior and very interesting. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I think that it was a sort of interesting challenge, I feel like, with this chapter where I was trying to figure out, and I I I don't know if I succeeded or didn't succeed in just, like, finding the balance of, like, how much to talk about that stuff and how much to not talk about that stuff.
And so that was, like, a yeah. It was an interesting challenge outside of I don't feel like any of the other shows really had that. I mean, of course, like, Jane James Franco for sure in Freaks and Geeks. But, yeah, that was just an interesting challenge, I would say. I think you did a good job of, like, really, you know, not ignoring it, but at this and not letting it be the whole chapter either, you know?
Right. Right. Because yeah. So basically, in 2013, during the run of the show, I I almost kinda forgot this was during the run of the show that Cory Monteith died. That was obviously incredibly painful for everyone, and I did do a tribute episode.
And I kinda wondered if maybe the Riverdale cast had similar feelings about their Luke Perry tribute episode, where it just seemed like it was just so painful and hard to to film. Yeah. It's I think I think someone said that they were basically, like, we need to get this all in one tape because it was Yeah. So so painful to film. But I I feel like in my history of interviewing people, few few people have come up so much in such positive ways as Cory Monteith and Naya Rivera.
Like, it was almost hard to fit. Every like, everybody had just, like, such genuinely earnest, like, sweet stories about both of those people, which you don't always find. And I I found that very moving. So yeah. I mean, obviously, Naya Rivera passed away tragically after the show had already ended.
And then also, kind of the most puzzling and troubling of them all is Mark Vailing, who was found to basically be a pedophile and then died by suicide. If you're a Glee fan and you've been a Glee fan this whole time, like, wow, the trenches of that fandom. It was yeah. I remember A lot of emotion. Yeah.
I remember when that all that was way I'm trying to remember when that was. That was, like that wasn't so long ago. Right? The mark sailing? I don't think so.
I've heard really bad things about it, but isn't there, like, a documentary docuseries about, like, the fate of all these Glee actors that's been done in bad taste, if my understand I don't know. Saw some negative feedback about it. Yes. I have yes. I heard, this is where it just sort of focuses on, like, a lot of horrible things.
It was like, is it I can't remember the name of it. But, yes, I have also heard similar things about that. I think that one quote from one of the people who was at the filming of the last Glee scene, I feel like this quote really summed it up in a in a very sad way, but it was like, I feel like so much wasn't being said and there was a lot of tension. Coming into that last number, I was just like, it doesn't feel great in here. I would love to say it was a wonderful Glee last moment, but it was so much more complicated than that.
I think that that's, like, what it I would really say. It's like, it clearly was very complicated. Yeah. Like, there was obviously joy and, like, really good things that came out of the show and everything. But, like, you cannot think about the legacy of the show without saying that there was some complicated shit.
Yes. You're right. That's that's the perfect way to sum it all up. Yeah. Yeah.
And they they hit it so well. You go and you watch that last performance, and you would never guess, like, all the emotions underneath. Yeah. You end up like a super heartwarming anecdote for me bachelorette weekend experience. That actually kind of parallel to my own bachelor experience a little bit, which I'll explain after you tell the story.
Can you, like, maybe sum that up? I thought that was such a sweet way to end the book. It was sort of a tribute to the power of teen TV was I went on a bachelorette trip, and none of us had really spent a lot of time together. And we all decided to watch the OC, and it was just, like, going back to the best parts of high school where, like, even if you don't know people, like, you're united around how much you hate Oliver, how much you, like, love the Ryan and Marissa, like, of it all. So there was just a it was I I think I just finished or I was finishing up writing the book, and I remember that happened.
And I was like, oh, this is kind of my thesis statement in action right here. Absolutely. Yeah. It reminded me of my bachelor weekend because we were in Miramar Beach at this, like, you know, house with, like, a ton of rooms, and in every room, there was, like, a smart TV, but, like, one of the few channels in the smart TV was playing just Degrassi over and over again. So I'm like, everyone comes down after the first night, and it's like, did anyone else watch Degrassi last night?
And so, like, multiple people had. And then we put it on while we were making breakfast. And an episode that I had just done on the podcast with two of my friends who were there was on. And you're like, well, we have to watch it again. Yeah.
I mean, that's I mean, that's there. Yeah. It was just so perfect that, like, of all the, like, the this channel only plays to grass. Like, what are you talking about? Like Right.
Right. Do we think maybe the owners of the house were like, let's just see. Like, they were so different. But yeah. I loved that, and I I obviously completely agree with your thesis.
For anyone who loves teen dramas, I feel like your book is just a must read, and I hope that anyone who hasn't read it yet is listening to this goes and picks up a copy. But I did think that maybe a great way to end would be to just discussing the current trajectory of teen dramas and, like, where you feel you currently see the effect of, like, the ones that you wrote about. You know, if there are any favorite currently or more recently aired teen dramas that you feel like, you know, are, you know, where you can see the influence? So this is I feel like I'm a little behind, which is, like, and I feel like I feel, like, really guilty about that as a teen drama lover. But Okay.
We forgive you. Okay. Thank you. It was a safe space, I hope. I love never have I ever.
I love that so much, and I do that show. That is proof positive of, like, a young, like, female character who is, like, allowed to be messy and flawed and, like, what Angela Chase, like, wanted and got you know, like, it was, like, a it was, like, a victory for Angela Chase in that regard. I love Heartstopper. Like, that is just, like, talk about small, beautiful stories. Yeah.

(07:01):
Totally. And so I'm I just finished writing a book about New Girl. Right. Yeah. Of it.
And there's something I sort of love this full circle moment is that Jake Kasdan, who directed the pilot of Freaks and Geeks, when Liz Merriweather created New Girl, she was, like, figuring out who she's gonna reach out to to direct her pilot. She loved Freaks and Geeks, and she loved when she says, like, the quote, like, the in between stuff where you're not totally sure if it's happy or sad, and she wrote that for her show. And so she called you know, she called emailed Jake Kasdan, and he came and directed New Girl. And I was like, it made me very happy that these two worlds were were merging in that way. And yeah.
So I feel like I feel like it's oh my gosh. Especially Freaks and Geeks, I feel like lives on in a very like, that world. We got I feel like we got The Office. We got, like, Ken Kwapis who directed so many episodes of Freaks and Geeks directed The Office, and The Office feels like a a graduation from that show. Yeah.
Totally. Even not just in teen dramas, but, like, in beloved shows since then. Yeah. I totally agree. As much as people like to kind of and, like, I think I've probably been a part of this before, like, clowning on Glee.
Like, there are so many shows that, like, now have just, like and we've talked about a lot of them on this podcast. Just have really, like, meaningful representation of marginalized communities, and I don't think it would have happened if that Glee is paving the way. Yes. Yeah. I really feel like Glee needs to get its flowers.
And I hope it does. I think it does. Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong. Ryan Murphy, kind of a complicated character, but he's created some cool shit and made a lot of, you know a lot of people are, like, famous now because of Glee, you know, who, like, it's really it's cool that they are part of our, you know, pop culture landscape.
And, like, the music holds up. And, like, you can go back and go on YouTube and watch those musical performances, and you're, like, holy crap. Like, and there's some version Glee versions that I prefer to the original versions. I'm like, I would I'm gonna listen to that as opposed to the original. Thank you so much for coming on.
This was such an amazing discussion. I was so excited when you answered my email or my DM or whatever the hell it was. Of course. It's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so Yeah. So where can listeners keep up with you, especially since as you mentioned, you have another book forthcoming? Yes. Instagram probably. The Glassman on Instagram.
I'll have you send me, like, a little whatever you want with the button. Just a little description too. Yeah. Sounds good. And yeah.
And I'll have updates on on the new rule book hopefully soon too for when that comes out. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Once again, this was so fun. Thanks for listening to leftist teen drama.
Follow us on social media for updates. Links to our Twitter, Instagram, Tumblr, and TikTok are in the show notes along with links to suggested additional reading on the topics discussed. And don't forget to read us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Solidarity forever, free Palestine, and abolish the PIC. Finining off, Maria.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}SPECIAL EP: Leftist Teen Drama In Conversation with Thea Glassman

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

All Episodes

SPECIAL EP: Leftist Teen Drama In Conversation with Thea Glassman

On Purpose with Jay Shetty