February 5, 2025 • 31 mins
AOA Emerging Leader, Aaron Brandt, MD, sits down with Professor Bethany Adams (Villanova) and Mimi Peterson, MD (MGH), to discuss the power of allyship and privilege in orthopaedic surgery. This discussion highlights the importance of DEI forums in fostering challenging yet vital conversations, supported by a three-year curriculum addressing allyship, DEI burnout, and the business aspects of DEI. Effective allyship is a continuous journey.
Explore strategies to drive DEI initiatives with limited resources, leveraging ERGs, collective allyship, and tools like reminder cards to turn intentions into actions. Learn how leaders can create environments where allyship thrives through shared learning and support.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:22):
Good evening and welcome to another episode of
the AOA podcast.
My name is Aaron Brandt,pediatric orthopedic surgeon and
currently serving as a DEIliaison, and I'm joined by two
awesome guests to discuss DEIand our initiatives, with a
specific focus on allyship today, and we're going to revisit
last year's meeting which wasallyship in action.
(00:43):
So I've got Professor BethanyAdams she is Associate Director
of Marketing Strategy atVillanova in the Human Resources
Department for GraduatePrograms and has an extensive
experience in business in thebusiness world and brought that
to our DEI forum this lastsession and we're happy to have
her on board for the comingsessions as well, coming
symposium as well.
(01:04):
And then I have Mimi Peterson,currently a fellow at MGH but
also serving as a DEI liaisonand was key in developing and
helping put on this lastsymposium on DEI.
So welcome to both of you.
I'm excited that we can gettogether and kind of reignite
some of the energy that we hadafter the meeting and just kind
(01:27):
of revisit it for all the folksat home.
So welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Yeah, thanks for having us.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, yeah, let me start with Mimi, if you don't
mind.
Just as far as our goals withthis DEI symposia, I think
that's one thing that can belooked at in different ways,
like we're emphasizing it toomuch or we're not emphasizing it
enough.
I really like our currentstructure.
Can you tell us kind of aboutthe plan and the cycle that
(01:52):
we're on?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Yeah, of course.
So I think in general, you know,we want the DEI forum to be a
place where people can talkabout things that might not
necessarily fit in other places.
We want people to have theability to have, you know,
uncomfortable conversations, butalso in a way that's more
directed and focused.
(02:15):
So one of the tasks that I wascharged with, along with Sean,
who was, you know, one of theother prior DEI liaisons, was to
kind of come up with acurriculum, and part of that
curriculum was like a three-yearcycle of what we were going to
look at.
So we really wanted to focus,you know, first on allyship I
think you know one, because, youknow, while we may be better at
(02:35):
recognizing the diversitydeficiencies within orthopedic
surgery, we're not necessarilybetter at, you know, addressing
equity and getting better atbeing allies.
So that was kind of the firstyear.
The second year that we'relooking forward to is, you know,
DEI burnout, and then the thirdyear is kind of really
(02:55):
practical reasons like thebusiness side of DEI.
So that's kind of just thethree-year plan, you know,
looking forward.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, I mean I love it.
It just kind of gives a littlestructure to it and in an
organization like the AOA wereally do want to have some kind
of format that we can build onand have purpose right, bethany
and there's no question thatthis is not specific to
orthopedic surgery we like thatyou bring kind of that global
picture to us.
How did the session go for you?
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah, I thought it was absolutely wonderful.
I will say I very muchappreciated all the enthusiasm
in the room for the topic.
You know, I think thatdiversity, equity and inclusion
is something that every businessstruggles with and says how do
we do this better?
Because every business that'sdoing business right wants to do
(03:46):
better in that area and sorecognizing some of the
shortcomings maybe in orthopedicsurgery and where you all have
room to grow but then just theenthusiasm and how many people
really said I need to do thisbetter, I need to bring a
colleague into this room nextyear and we need to have more
(04:07):
people in this space.
I thought that was reallyreassuring and it really made
you know the work that I dooften sometimes can fall on deaf
ears.
People want to hear it and thenthey're like, yeah, okay, I
hope somebody else does that,and it felt like everyone in
that space really wanted to be apart of the change for your
group and I thought that waspretty powerful.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean it always is sitting inthose sessions.
You just kind of it's oftenattracts like-minded people and
that's our biggest onus is toexpand that group.
And I thought allyship was agreat topic.
Can you, can we talk a littlebit more about just that word
ally and what we're trying toget across with that?
What makes a good ally?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, I will say, I think, mimi, just some kudos to
you from the planning of it.
I think starting with allyshipis like a nice opening for
thinking about curriculum inthis space, because it offers
this mindset of we all have apart to play in this work and I
think that a lot of people thinklike DEI work that's for
(05:12):
somebody else.
It can't be.
It has to be for all of us.
It has, you know, inclusionmeans all of us, and so, really,
allyship is all about, you know, being willing to be
uncomfortable with where you areand to advocate for other
people who you know might needadvocating for.
It's not this like one-time act, it's not this, you know, I
(05:35):
have to do everything perfect.
It's really just about beingopen to learning and growing and
being willing to step outsideof your comfort zone, and any
person who's willing to say I'lllearn, I'll grow, I'll make
myself better in this space,they can be an ally, and I think
that's sort of where we startedfor this session.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Yeah, I love that.
One of the things that I reallylearned from the meeting too,
and in the discussions, was thatyou don't have to be a perfect
person or have a perfectunderstanding of.
You know diversity, equity,inclusion or even you know any
of these terms.
You just have to be someonewho's open-minded and willing to
advocate for someone.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, and I would even say advocate.
That is.
It's so active.
And some people are just like,why, like, why should I do this?
I would say, just being aware Ithink we work with so many
different people and that's beenone of my biggest onus is just
paying attention, because mybackground, who I am, is very
different from everybody else.
That doesn't change.
(06:39):
I still have to be able toteach and to support and to work
with so many different people.
So it's still everybody isdoing these things and has to
has to be conscious and I lovethat be comfortable with being
uncomfortable.
It's no one wants to do it, butit's, it's our job.
I mean in business and allthese different realms, like
(06:59):
that's the nature of it, that'show you grow, that's how you
kind of succeed.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
I think, too, too, that you know, we often think
that, like it, allyship is this,it's something giant, it's
something big.
I have to do these like giantacts?
Nope, Sometimes it's justshowing up right, and oftentimes
it's those little things, overand over again, that can provide
the most monumental change.
And so you know to your point,aaron, like we all come from
(07:27):
very different perspectives andpoints of view.
That's the whole purpose, right, is you know?
Getting more diversity in thespace so that we can actually
build better teams and havebetter ideas and more innovation
.
And so it's using our ownunique perspective to advocate
in a way that's powerful.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
So yeah, I think one thing you both did excellent and
, bethany, kudos to you for justkind of the process.
We touched on some trickiertopics during the symposia and
diversity is a buzzword rightnow period.
That's something that can putpeople off.
But privilege we really hit onprivilege and I was amazed at
(08:09):
how receptive people were to notonly the topic but also to
engaging and discussing it andbeing open to it.
How have you done this to kindof at your institution and kind
of with other programs, likewhat can people do to kind of
look at this and not make itsuch a taboo thing?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Yeah, you know it's interesting.
There are certain words thatyou say them and people
immediately go oh, I think Iwant to check out of this
conversation.
Right, and privilege is one ofthose, and I think that's
because it's framed in a waythat provides this sort of
negative connotation, which, inthe space of DEI recognizing and
(08:51):
understanding your privilege isactually a really powerful
thing, because it just shows youthat you have certain
advantages that you can leverage.
Right, it's how each and everyone of us has gotten to where we
are.
So how do we help take thoseadvantages and provide them for
other people who might not havethe same?
And every single human has somesort of advantage or privilege
(09:14):
in some space, and it's aboutfinding the ways that you have a
unique influence to leveragethose things.
I think one of the things thatwas pretty powerful was we went
through that list of, like,potential privileges that you
might have, and there's somereally unique ones, right, like
we tend to think of, like oh,you're white, you're male, like
(09:34):
these are the ones that come tomind, but it's also just you
know, how do you show up atevents, like, do people assume
certain things about you whenyou show up?
Are you confident that if youraise an idea that it'll be
listened to, like there are somethings that people might not
even think of as like, oh yeah,I don't have to question that,
but other people might.
(09:54):
And so, just recognizing someof those things, we spent a
little bit of time, you know, insmaller groups talking about
those and I think that was animportant like it sort of opened
up the conversation for a lotof people.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, yeah, maybe you kind of pulled together the
stats and we kind of looked,looked through that a little bit
.
Just can you tell me a littlebit about what we took from that
as far as the makeup of thesession and kind of some of the
answers, if you will?
Speaker 4 (10:21):
I don't know if you have that with you, or just yeah
for sure you know kind of justthe practice background of
mostly the individuals thatattended are from academic
institutions, but we also hadpeople who are in independent
practices, hospital, employed,in the military, and we
specifically wanted to know whatpeople, what challenges,
patient or, like you know,people faced in terms of what
(10:42):
prevents us from maybe acting asan ally.
So one of the things that cameup was, you know, implicit
biases that you know scoredpretty high, and I think part of
that is to, you know, notnecessarily recognizing what we
don't know about ourselves, bothour strengths and you know kind
of our blind spots andweaknesses.
(11:03):
And then the other thing that Ifound interesting in kind of our
survey was that you know kindof our blind spots and
weaknesses.
And then the other thing that Ifound interesting in kind of
our survey was that, you know Iasked basically a yes or no
question Do people feel likethere's a barrier that inhibits
my ability to act as an ally?
And the surprising thing tothat was actually most people
said no.
So 57% of people who attendedyou know this forum felt like
(11:24):
there really is no barrier.
You know 43% is attended.
You know this forum felt likethere really is no barrier.
You know, you know 43% is still, you know, not an insignificant
number.
But we have people who have adesire and we have people that
don't have those barriers andyet you know what's holding us
back or what can we do tomaximize, you know, that desire.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, yeah, I thought that was actually my favorite
kind of chart that we kind ofthat you pulled together was the
majority said I don't have anybarriers, so it just goes back
to what can I do and what's whatis blocking me from doing it,
and I thought that was reallytelling as well.
Other things that obviouslycome up day to day are kind of
(12:02):
just time and money and allthese different types of things
and, bethany, you touched onthat.
Like it's, those are allfactors in all realms and that
doesn't have to be a big,grandiose thing.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I very much
appreciated so Dr Maria Bagstrom, who was a part of our
conversation and our firesidechat during this.
She talked about some of theways that she's been able to
advocate and kind of get fundsfor some of these efforts.
She works as a professor ofmedicine at Washington
(12:38):
University and I think that alot of her experience was really
.
It really resonated with manyof the people in the room.
Given that she's sort of in thework right now as well, she
knows how hard it can be to getfunding for some of these things
and she really talked about,you know, building teams and
getting lots of people to rallyaround certain ideas.
(12:59):
That can be really monumental.
Even just what we did in thatspace, right, Like having a DEI
forum at a leadership event likethis, can be really powerful,
because there were so manypeople in that room that people
were like what is that going on?
At 7.30 in the morning rightnow.
Why is?
(13:20):
everyone loving this event.
Well, that just creates thesame kind of momentum.
So I think that that can bereally helpful In business.
We see a lot of organizationsthat don't have DEI budgets like
they do this work through thepeople who want to champion this
work internally, and oftentimesit takes very small steps, like
(13:43):
putting together some ERGgroups and having employees kind
of rally together and thenthey're like oh, there's
momentum over there.
Maybe we should throw somebudget at that and find ways
that they can advocate and alsothat then leverages new
innovation.
So when we see good thingscoming out of those groups, then
you get more funding.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So yeah, I think that's one thing that I feel
like the future.
We don't really know kind ofthe nature of kind of some of
these organizations and howwe're going to be able to
promote them, but those aregreat like quick little tools
that you just brought up and wedo have some resources that we
are putting together and we'llprobably have it posted with
(14:26):
this if we can and can organizethat together as well.
So, everyone, we try not toleave you hanging with just
another conversation and havesome actual things, some
clickable items for you.
One other thing I wanted tokind of touch on from the
meeting that I think wasimportant is also not just
(14:47):
allyship, but also the peoplebeing supported and kind of how
do we create this community orthis group effort in this realm?
I was wondering if any of you,if either of you, could comment
on that.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
So you know, it's interesting when we think about
it.
I don't think that allyshipcan't be an individual act,
right Like it's not, it can.
It can be, I should rephrase Ican do something individually to
be an ally, but allyship reallytakes hold when it's done in
communities, people who want togather together.
(15:27):
One of the things that we didin this meeting was sort of like
the second table discussion.
If I'm kind of putting ittogether in my mind was around
the actions that we can take,and so we spent some time
talking about as a group, likewhat things should we be working
on, each individually, but thenas a whole of the people who
(15:48):
were in that room, what thingscan we do to leverage our
privilege, to leverage ourexperiences in order to create
momentum for this movement andthis work?
And I think that that wasactually sort of maybe the best
part of it was hearing everyonetalk about like I could do this
or I've never even thought thatI could do this, and putting
(16:10):
those ideas together and thenbuilding on each other's ideas.
I think was a really powerfulplace, and I know we created
some cards for everyone to kindof mail out, just like as this
reminder, because how often dowe go to events or we go through
experiences where we're like Ihave all this intention, but is
(16:30):
that intention actually going totranslate into action?
And that's what we reallywanted was to remind people of
the intentions that they putforth over the summer so that
they could then put them intoaction in the work that they do,
and sometimes it just takesthat reminder.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Yeah, I actually really love that idea of doing
the cards, Bethany, Like thankyou so much for thinking of that
, because I think it helps kindof reignite and remind us of,
you know, those conversationsand the energy that we had, and
it's something that we can, youknow, carry forward and almost
relive too.
And yeah, going back to whatyou were saying you know, Aaron,
your question about likecommunity, you know, I think
(17:07):
having these conversations likethis at, you know, like the AOA
meeting, for example, it bringslike leaders in orthopedic
surgery together so they canhave these conversations and
then hopefully that can kind oftrickle down to you know, their
various respective institutions.
You know, I think that there'sother organizations out there,
there's ways to connect online,but certainly the best way to
(17:29):
really find support in these isto find, you know, like-minded
individuals that can also beyour ally in learning how to be
an ally.
So it's, you know, all kind ofpositive feedback.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Oh, I love that flip.
I love that flip that you justdid because it is.
It's almost in that way.
There's an odd privilege toworking in this realm and in the
same end, allies have troublemaking action out of fear of
doing something wrong right.
So there's almost that ad.
There's something advantageousabout that is like I'm not gonna
(18:01):
lie there's sometimes I know Ican trap people.
Or when they say somethingwrong, I'm like, oh, I got them,
like like now they'reuncomfortable and I have the
upper hand.
So I love that kind of flip,like we, we have to also be
ready to help the allies andhelp them feel kind of get
through that and learn.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
I will just as a point to, I'll add you know I've
worked with a lot of people inthe DEI world, like in the
business DEI world, and there isa lot of people who get and you
know this goes to yourcurriculum for next year of they
get very burned out on thiswork, right, because it can feel
sometimes like there's notmomentum happening, there's not
change.
Change is very slow in thisspace and it's not always linear
(18:48):
either, like sometimes you goaround in a few circles before
things move forward.
And I think that people needthe community of like-minded
individuals who want to continuedoing this work so that when
they start to feel the burnout,someone else can help reignite
them.
Right to that, because it canbe really isolating too if
(19:10):
you're trying to do this work ina vacuum and you don't feel
like you have people around youwho are supporting the efforts
that you want to do.
Because and this is true inwhether it's orthopedic surgery
or whether it's big businessbecause the focus always goes
back to, well, like the businessor the surgery right, or the
(19:30):
research that you're doing,instead of the inclusion work as
a piece, and so having acommunity to help remind you
that, like no, this is the core.
This is the good stuff thatwe're doing that can move
everything else forward isreally important for the people
who want to make this workhappen.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
One other thing, too, about you know, community and
having this community is, youknow, this is something that I
want to be open to everyone, youknow, and that something that I
want to be open to everyone youknow, and that's not
necessarily people whoself-identify as being
interested in diversityinitiatives, Like anyone who has
any willingness to, you know,want to participate.
You know, I want them to feellike they're welcome, to come
into the space and, you know, bea part of these conversations,
(20:13):
whether they want to share orjust, you know, just want to
listen.
And you know the ultimate goalis not to increase diversity for
the sake of increasingdiversity, right, Like the
ultimate goal is to, you know,make the orthopedic surgery
field like the best possiblefield and for us to be the best
possible.
You know, surgeons, and part ofthat, too, is just serving the
(20:33):
community and being reflectiveof the communities that we take
care of.
So all voices, you know, shouldhave a table, not necessarily
just, you know, people who mightneed some allyship.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Love that.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, I think not to bring up the privilege word
again, but I think that's one ofthe things that I've loved.
I just was able to listen to ourchairman here at NYU, dr
Zuckerman, give an address abouthis career and one of the
biggest things he emphasized wasthis community aspect, and that
, to me, is the biggest thing torecognize is our role.
(21:09):
No matter what level you are at,we have privilege, we have a
pretty cool job and position,and there are people trying to
get to where we are and so justbeing aware and advocating and
that that is what you can dotalk about a nice structured way
like a actionable thing, and astructured thing is if you're in
(21:30):
that room and you, there's anopportunity to advocate.
There it is, and it doesn'thave to be in front of them, it
doesn't have to be anything likethat.
But, um, I think the fear ofdoing something wrong is we all
have it and I think that's whatI took from it most and I just
really try to emphasize mostbecause it's there's.
I found it very powerful when Ido have someone who does not
(21:52):
look or come from a backgroundlike me identify and pull me
along.
It's a game changer, it trulyis.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Yeah, aaron, you just hit on something that I think
is really important, like in theallyship space, but also just
in the inclusion space as well,and that's just awareness and
just like being willing tolisten.
In some of the organizationsthat I've worked with in the
past, some of the most powerfulchange that they have seen has
come from so a lot of companieswill do ERGs, so employee
(22:23):
resource groups right, andthey'll have these employee
resource groups for differentgroups Maybe it's like parents
or the black community in thatorganization and they'll have
senior leadership sponsor thoseERGs, and some of the best
movement I've seen is when asenior leader who's not a part
of the ERG sponsors an ERG andjust shows up at the meetings
(22:48):
and just listens and just bylistening, right.
So if you're not a parent, I'mnot a parent.
So I'll use that as an example.
If I'm not a parent, it's reallyhard for me to know the
challenges of parents in thespace that I sit.
How could I possibly know andunderstand the challenges that
they face or the things thatthey're dealing with if those
(23:09):
aren't the things that Ipersonally deal with?
And so just by showing up andsitting in the space, I become
more aware of challenges that Imight never have ever considered
, aware of challenges that Imight never have ever considered
.
And all of a sudden I go, ohwell, maybe we could do this
(23:29):
different and that would changethe whole game in this way for
this group.
And so having someone in seniorleadership or someone who sits
in a position of power just beopen to listening and becoming
more aware can be reallypowerful in building and
creating change and momentum inthis kind of work.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Love it.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you for that.
Yeah, I think that's huge.
Just going off of that, as wekind of wrap things up, are
there any things that actionabletips that we took from the
session or any favorites thatyou guys had?
I've got mine, so I've alreadygot one in my head, but anything
that you remember, just so wecan leave them with something
(24:08):
active.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Yeah, I remember, you know one of the participants
had mentioned you know it's justsomething small, but it was
like a sticker on someone'swater bottle that supported this
organization that you knowuplifts a certain, you know,
community of people.
You know that's such a small actand you know that, while it's
not a big act of allyship, butit's a powerful act of allyship
(24:32):
because, one, you know you'remaking a statement and then, two
, you're also, you know,inviting yourself to have, you
know, have conversations withpeople that might want to seek
you out and talk about thosekinds of things.
So it can be as small as that.
And then another you know,example that came out was, you
know, inviting a grand roundspeaker who you know might not
look like the rest of yourpractice.
(24:54):
So they don't come tonecessarily talk about diversity
or equity or inclusion, butthey come to talk about what
their specific research is on.
You know that can be a very bigstatement and you know also
very powerful in and of itself.
So you know, on both ends ofthe spectrum, you know you can
have actions that are, you know,very explicit but don't have to
(25:15):
be necessarily super, I don'tknow, in your face, I guess.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, so, mimi, if anybody hasDr Peterson as a grand round
speaker, she does not want totalk about it.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
So I feel like my example is going to be a downer,
but then I'm going to bring,I'm going to close, I'm going to
bring it back up, I promise.
But one of my it wasn'tnecessarily my favorite moment
in the session, but it endedwith like a moment that I loved.
I got a question during itduring the session you guys
might remember this that someonewas like well, what if I work
(25:54):
in a state where diversity isillegal and we can't do any of
this work and it's illegal to dothis work?
And my answer to that is alwaysbecause I get that question
sometimes in conversations isinclusion will never be illegal,
right, like it's just not, andlike you still have to better
(26:14):
your business and you still haveto support the people who are a
part of the work and youremployees and your staff and all
of the people who are comingafter you, and that's inclusion
and so that work will never beillegal and so, finding the way
to best support all of yourpeople, it will always work Well
.
So the person who asked thatquestion came up to me after the
(26:35):
session and they said thatanswer inclusion will never be
illegal is my new power linewhen I go back and they were
like I'm going to use it all thetime and anyone who tries to,
you know, take down this workand this momentum.
I'm going to use it in that waybecause I loved how you framed
it and that, to me, was thisreally positive moment of like.
(26:57):
So often I think we get stuckin challenges, like someone's
going to throw a challenge atyou oh, this is illegal in my
state.
Maybe not that grand of achallenge, but there's little
things that just come up andjust being, you know, like
having some momentum, some beingarmed with some ways that you
can think differently or getsomeone else to think
differently, can help change themomentum for this work, and so
(27:20):
that was actually one of myfavorite things at the end of
the session that came out of amoment that I was like oh, I
hate this question, but I'm gladit gave you momentum for later.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
I love that line.
That looks like the shirt thatI want.
Inclusion will never be illegalI mean, it might be a good
phrase to have on a shirt rightnow, yeah, and I almost don't
want to even follow that becauseI love that closure.
But I think the last thing thatI took and we kind of hit on
multiple times during thesession was just asking.
(27:52):
So not only just listening, butif you have a question, if you
want to know how someone wantsto be addressed, if you aren't
sure how someone took aninteraction or a situation, ask.
We are all people and that'spart of this job and it's
something that I'm working onevery day and I thought that
that was I don't remember whobrought that up and mentioned it
(28:13):
, but I think that's just a nice, easy, one-on-one thing that
you can do to buildrelationships and this
interdependence that you, if youwill.
So awesome.
I love this.
Thank you for joining metonight and revisiting this is
exactly what I thought wouldhappen.
I'd get energized again andhopefully people who listen to
it will also feel that.
(28:33):
Any kind of closing thoughts onthe session.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Just to follow up on your thing about asking like you
know, ultimately, you know,allyship is a practice and I
think it's okay to make mistakesalong the way and to learn from
them, and I think it's okay tolike extend grace to, like you
know, ourselves or to otherpeople, as we kind of all go
(28:56):
through this journey.
So I love that point aboutasking Erin.
I think it's so important andyou know it involves a degree of
vulnerability to like oh youknow, I'm not maybe very
knowledgeable in this area, canyou enlighten me?
So love that, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Yeah, and I would just say I'm really excited for
the next session.
I think that understanding howchallenging this work can be and
how it can personally impact,there's sort of a DEI burnout
that people and society andcultures are sort of like all
(29:31):
right, we've been talking aboutthat for a while, can we stop?
But there's also an individualDEI burnout.
When you do work that's hard,when you allow yourself to be
uncomfortable and say I don'tknow this or can someone help me
learn this, that can burn youout too.
And so I think it'll be reallypowerful for a lot of people who
have been working and want tomove this work forward in your
(29:54):
industry to kind of share inthat and kind of learn from that
in our next session.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah, I mean, it gets brought up every time we do a
symposia like this the burnoutside, so to have an entire
session based on it.
We hear you, we feel you andwe're excited to bring that to
everybody.
So I'm looking forward to thatat the next AOA meeting.
So, again, we are going to pullthe postcards and try to get
those sent out to the people whohave them.
(30:22):
We do want those to be littlereminders to everybody.
And, yeah, look out for thenext session that will involve
the good Bethany Adams and DrPeterson as well.
But thank you both for yourtime again.
This was great and we will seeyou soon.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Thank you, Thanks Erin.
Good evening and welcome to another episode of
the AOA podcast.
My name is Aaron Brandt,pediatric orthopedic surgeon and
currently serving as a DEIliaison, and I'm joined by two
awesome guests to discuss DEIand our initiatives, with a
specific focus on allyship today, and we're going to revisit
last year's meeting which wasallyship in action.
(00:43):
So I've got Professor BethanyAdams she is Associate Director
of Marketing Strategy atVillanova in the Human Resources
Department for GraduatePrograms and has an extensive
experience in business in thebusiness world and brought that
to our DEI forum this lastsession and we're happy to have
her on board for the comingsessions as well, coming
symposium as well.
(01:04):
And then I have Mimi Peterson,currently a fellow at MGH but
also serving as a DEI liaisonand was key in developing and
helping put on this lastsymposium on DEI.
So welcome to both of you.
I'm excited that we can gettogether and kind of reignite
some of the energy that we hadafter the meeting and just kind
(01:27):
of revisit it for all the folksat home.
So welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Yeah, thanks for having us.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, yeah, let me start with Mimi, if you don't
mind.
Just as far as our goals withthis DEI symposia, I think
that's one thing that can belooked at in different ways,
like we're emphasizing it toomuch or we're not emphasizing it
enough.
I really like our currentstructure.
Can you tell us kind of aboutthe plan and the cycle that
(01:52):
we're on?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Yeah, of course.
So I think in general, you know,we want the DEI forum to be a
place where people can talkabout things that might not
necessarily fit in other places.
We want people to have theability to have, you know,
uncomfortable conversations, butalso in a way that's more
directed and focused.
(02:15):
So one of the tasks that I wascharged with, along with Sean,
who was, you know, one of theother prior DEI liaisons, was to
kind of come up with acurriculum, and part of that
curriculum was like a three-yearcycle of what we were going to
look at.
So we really wanted to focus,you know, first on allyship I
think you know one, because, youknow, while we may be better at
(02:35):
recognizing the diversitydeficiencies within orthopedic
surgery, we're not necessarilybetter at, you know, addressing
equity and getting better atbeing allies.
So that was kind of the firstyear.
The second year that we'relooking forward to is, you know,
DEI burnout, and then the thirdyear is kind of really
(02:55):
practical reasons like thebusiness side of DEI.
So that's kind of just thethree-year plan, you know,
looking forward.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, I mean I love it.
It just kind of gives a littlestructure to it and in an
organization like the AOA wereally do want to have some kind
of format that we can build onand have purpose right, bethany
and there's no question thatthis is not specific to
orthopedic surgery we like thatyou bring kind of that global
picture to us.
How did the session go for you?
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah, I thought it was absolutely wonderful.
I will say I very muchappreciated all the enthusiasm
in the room for the topic.
You know, I think thatdiversity, equity and inclusion
is something that every businessstruggles with and says how do
we do this better?
Because every business that'sdoing business right wants to do
(03:46):
better in that area and sorecognizing some of the
shortcomings maybe in orthopedicsurgery and where you all have
room to grow but then just theenthusiasm and how many people
really said I need to do thisbetter, I need to bring a
colleague into this room nextyear and we need to have more
(04:07):
people in this space.
I thought that was reallyreassuring and it really made
you know the work that I dooften sometimes can fall on deaf
ears.
People want to hear it and thenthey're like, yeah, okay, I
hope somebody else does that,and it felt like everyone in
that space really wanted to be apart of the change for your
group and I thought that waspretty powerful.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean it always is sitting inthose sessions.
You just kind of it's oftenattracts like-minded people and
that's our biggest onus is toexpand that group.
And I thought allyship was agreat topic.
Can you, can we talk a littlebit more about just that word
ally and what we're trying toget across with that?
What makes a good ally?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, I will say, I think, mimi, just some kudos to
you from the planning of it.
I think starting with allyshipis like a nice opening for
thinking about curriculum inthis space, because it offers
this mindset of we all have apart to play in this work and I
think that a lot of people thinklike DEI work that's for
(05:12):
somebody else.
It can't be.
It has to be for all of us.
It has, you know, inclusionmeans all of us, and so, really,
allyship is all about, you know, being willing to be
uncomfortable with where you areand to advocate for other
people who you know might needadvocating for.
It's not this like one-time act, it's not this, you know, I
(05:35):
have to do everything perfect.
It's really just about beingopen to learning and growing and
being willing to step outsideof your comfort zone, and any
person who's willing to say I'lllearn, I'll grow, I'll make
myself better in this space,they can be an ally, and I think
that's sort of where we startedfor this session.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Yeah, I love that.
One of the things that I reallylearned from the meeting too,
and in the discussions, was thatyou don't have to be a perfect
person or have a perfectunderstanding of.
You know diversity, equity,inclusion or even you know any
of these terms.
You just have to be someonewho's open-minded and willing to
advocate for someone.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, and I would even say advocate.
That is.
It's so active.
And some people are just like,why, like, why should I do this?
I would say, just being aware Ithink we work with so many
different people and that's beenone of my biggest onus is just
paying attention, because mybackground, who I am, is very
different from everybody else.
That doesn't change.
(06:39):
I still have to be able toteach and to support and to work
with so many different people.
So it's still everybody isdoing these things and has to
has to be conscious and I lovethat be comfortable with being
uncomfortable.
It's no one wants to do it, butit's, it's our job.
I mean in business and allthese different realms, like
(06:59):
that's the nature of it, that'show you grow, that's how you
kind of succeed.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
I think, too, too, that you know, we often think
that, like it, allyship is this,it's something giant, it's
something big.
I have to do these like giantacts?
Nope, Sometimes it's justshowing up right, and oftentimes
it's those little things, overand over again, that can provide
the most monumental change.
And so you know to your point,aaron, like we all come from
(07:27):
very different perspectives andpoints of view.
That's the whole purpose, right, is you know?
Getting more diversity in thespace so that we can actually
build better teams and havebetter ideas and more innovation
.
And so it's using our ownunique perspective to advocate
in a way that's powerful.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
So yeah, I think one thing you both did excellent and
, bethany, kudos to you for justkind of the process.
We touched on some trickiertopics during the symposia and
diversity is a buzzword rightnow period.
That's something that can putpeople off.
But privilege we really hit onprivilege and I was amazed at
(08:09):
how receptive people were to notonly the topic but also to
engaging and discussing it andbeing open to it.
How have you done this to kindof at your institution and kind
of with other programs, likewhat can people do to kind of
look at this and not make itsuch a taboo thing?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Yeah, you know it's interesting.
There are certain words thatyou say them and people
immediately go oh, I think Iwant to check out of this
conversation.
Right, and privilege is one ofthose, and I think that's
because it's framed in a waythat provides this sort of
negative connotation, which, inthe space of DEI recognizing and
(08:51):
understanding your privilege isactually a really powerful
thing, because it just shows youthat you have certain
advantages that you can leverage.
Right, it's how each and everyone of us has gotten to where we
are.
So how do we help take thoseadvantages and provide them for
other people who might not havethe same?
And every single human has somesort of advantage or privilege
(09:14):
in some space, and it's aboutfinding the ways that you have a
unique influence to leveragethose things.
I think one of the things thatwas pretty powerful was we went
through that list of, like,potential privileges that you
might have, and there's somereally unique ones, right, like
we tend to think of, like oh,you're white, you're male, like
(09:34):
these are the ones that come tomind, but it's also just you
know, how do you show up atevents, like, do people assume
certain things about you whenyou show up?
Are you confident that if youraise an idea that it'll be
listened to, like there are somethings that people might not
even think of as like, oh yeah,I don't have to question that,
but other people might.
(09:54):
And so, just recognizing someof those things, we spent a
little bit of time, you know, insmaller groups talking about
those and I think that was animportant like it sort of opened
up the conversation for a lotof people.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, yeah, maybe you kind of pulled together the
stats and we kind of looked,looked through that a little bit
.
Just can you tell me a littlebit about what we took from that
as far as the makeup of thesession and kind of some of the
answers, if you will?
Speaker 4 (10:21):
I don't know if you have that with you, or just yeah
for sure you know kind of justthe practice background of
mostly the individuals thatattended are from academic
institutions, but we also hadpeople who are in independent
practices, hospital, employed,in the military, and we
specifically wanted to know whatpeople, what challenges,
patient or, like you know,people faced in terms of what
(10:42):
prevents us from maybe acting asan ally.
So one of the things that cameup was, you know, implicit
biases that you know scoredpretty high, and I think part of
that is to, you know, notnecessarily recognizing what we
don't know about ourselves, bothour strengths and you know kind
of our blind spots andweaknesses.
(11:03):
And then the other thing that Ifound interesting in kind of our
survey was that you know kindof our blind spots and
weaknesses.
And then the other thing that Ifound interesting in kind of
our survey was that, you know Iasked basically a yes or no
question Do people feel likethere's a barrier that inhibits
my ability to act as an ally?
And the surprising thing tothat was actually most people
said no.
So 57% of people who attendedyou know this forum felt like
(11:24):
there really is no barrier.
You know 43% is attended.
You know this forum felt likethere really is no barrier.
You know, you know 43% is still, you know, not an insignificant
number.
But we have people who have adesire and we have people that
don't have those barriers andyet you know what's holding us
back or what can we do tomaximize, you know, that desire.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, yeah, I thought that was actually my favorite
kind of chart that we kind ofthat you pulled together was the
majority said I don't have anybarriers, so it just goes back
to what can I do and what's whatis blocking me from doing it,
and I thought that was reallytelling as well.
Other things that obviouslycome up day to day are kind of
(12:02):
just time and money and allthese different types of things
and, bethany, you touched onthat.
Like it's, those are allfactors in all realms and that
doesn't have to be a big,grandiose thing.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I very much
appreciated so Dr Maria Bagstrom, who was a part of our
conversation and our firesidechat during this.
She talked about some of theways that she's been able to
advocate and kind of get fundsfor some of these efforts.
She works as a professor ofmedicine at Washington
(12:38):
University and I think that alot of her experience was really
.
It really resonated with manyof the people in the room.
Given that she's sort of in thework right now as well, she
knows how hard it can be to getfunding for some of these things
and she really talked about,you know, building teams and
getting lots of people to rallyaround certain ideas.
(12:59):
That can be really monumental.
Even just what we did in thatspace, right, Like having a DEI
forum at a leadership event likethis, can be really powerful,
because there were so manypeople in that room that people
were like what is that going on?
At 7.30 in the morning rightnow.
Why is?
(13:20):
everyone loving this event.
Well, that just creates thesame kind of momentum.
So I think that that can bereally helpful In business.
We see a lot of organizationsthat don't have DEI budgets like
they do this work through thepeople who want to champion this
work internally, and oftentimesit takes very small steps, like
(13:43):
putting together some ERGgroups and having employees kind
of rally together and thenthey're like oh, there's
momentum over there.
Maybe we should throw somebudget at that and find ways
that they can advocate and alsothat then leverages new
innovation.
So when we see good thingscoming out of those groups, then
you get more funding.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So yeah, I think that's one thing that I feel
like the future.
We don't really know kind ofthe nature of kind of some of
these organizations and howwe're going to be able to
promote them, but those aregreat like quick little tools
that you just brought up and wedo have some resources that we
are putting together and we'llprobably have it posted with
(14:26):
this if we can and can organizethat together as well.
So, everyone, we try not toleave you hanging with just
another conversation and havesome actual things, some
clickable items for you.
One other thing I wanted tokind of touch on from the
meeting that I think wasimportant is also not just
(14:47):
allyship, but also the peoplebeing supported and kind of how
do we create this community orthis group effort in this realm?
I was wondering if any of you,if either of you, could comment
on that.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
So you know, it's interesting when we think about
it.
I don't think that allyshipcan't be an individual act,
right Like it's not, it can.
It can be, I should rephrase Ican do something individually to
be an ally, but allyship reallytakes hold when it's done in
communities, people who want togather together.
(15:27):
One of the things that we didin this meeting was sort of like
the second table discussion.
If I'm kind of putting ittogether in my mind was around
the actions that we can take,and so we spent some time
talking about as a group, likewhat things should we be working
on, each individually, but thenas a whole of the people who
(15:48):
were in that room, what thingscan we do to leverage our
privilege, to leverage ourexperiences in order to create
momentum for this movement andthis work?
And I think that that wasactually sort of maybe the best
part of it was hearing everyonetalk about like I could do this
or I've never even thought thatI could do this, and putting
(16:10):
those ideas together and thenbuilding on each other's ideas.
I think was a really powerfulplace, and I know we created
some cards for everyone to kindof mail out, just like as this
reminder, because how often dowe go to events or we go through
experiences where we're like Ihave all this intention, but is
(16:30):
that intention actually going totranslate into action?
And that's what we reallywanted was to remind people of
the intentions that they putforth over the summer so that
they could then put them intoaction in the work that they do,
and sometimes it just takesthat reminder.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Yeah, I actually really love that idea of doing
the cards, Bethany, Like thankyou so much for thinking of that
, because I think it helps kindof reignite and remind us of,
you know, those conversationsand the energy that we had, and
it's something that we can, youknow, carry forward and almost
relive too.
And yeah, going back to whatyou were saying you know, Aaron,
your question about likecommunity, you know, I think
(17:07):
having these conversations likethis at, you know, like the AOA
meeting, for example, it bringslike leaders in orthopedic
surgery together so they canhave these conversations and
then hopefully that can kind oftrickle down to you know, their
various respective institutions.
You know, I think that there'sother organizations out there,
there's ways to connect online,but certainly the best way to
(17:29):
really find support in these isto find, you know, like-minded
individuals that can also beyour ally in learning how to be
an ally.
So it's, you know, all kind ofpositive feedback.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Oh, I love that flip.
I love that flip that you justdid because it is.
It's almost in that way.
There's an odd privilege toworking in this realm and in the
same end, allies have troublemaking action out of fear of
doing something wrong right.
So there's almost that ad.
There's something advantageousabout that is like I'm not gonna
(18:01):
lie there's sometimes I know Ican trap people.
Or when they say somethingwrong, I'm like, oh, I got them,
like like now they'reuncomfortable and I have the
upper hand.
So I love that kind of flip,like we, we have to also be
ready to help the allies andhelp them feel kind of get
through that and learn.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
I will just as a point to, I'll add you know I've
worked with a lot of people inthe DEI world, like in the
business DEI world, and there isa lot of people who get and you
know this goes to yourcurriculum for next year of they
get very burned out on thiswork, right, because it can feel
sometimes like there's notmomentum happening, there's not
change.
Change is very slow in thisspace and it's not always linear
(18:48):
either, like sometimes you goaround in a few circles before
things move forward.
And I think that people needthe community of like-minded
individuals who want to continuedoing this work so that when
they start to feel the burnout,someone else can help reignite
them.
Right to that, because it canbe really isolating too if
(19:10):
you're trying to do this work ina vacuum and you don't feel
like you have people around youwho are supporting the efforts
that you want to do.
Because and this is true inwhether it's orthopedic surgery
or whether it's big businessbecause the focus always goes
back to, well, like the businessor the surgery right, or the
(19:30):
research that you're doing,instead of the inclusion work as
a piece, and so having acommunity to help remind you
that, like no, this is the core.
This is the good stuff thatwe're doing that can move
everything else forward isreally important for the people
who want to make this workhappen.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
One other thing, too, about you know, community and
having this community is, youknow, this is something that I
want to be open to everyone, youknow, and that something that I
want to be open to everyone youknow, and that's not
necessarily people whoself-identify as being
interested in diversityinitiatives, Like anyone who has
any willingness to, you know,want to participate.
You know, I want them to feellike they're welcome, to come
into the space and, you know, bea part of these conversations,
(20:13):
whether they want to share orjust, you know, just want to
listen.
And you know the ultimate goalis not to increase diversity for
the sake of increasingdiversity, right, Like the
ultimate goal is to, you know,make the orthopedic surgery
field like the best possiblefield and for us to be the best
possible.
You know, surgeons, and part ofthat, too, is just serving the
(20:33):
community and being reflectiveof the communities that we take
care of.
So all voices, you know, shouldhave a table, not necessarily
just, you know, people who mightneed some allyship.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Love that.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, I think not to bring up the privilege word
again, but I think that's one ofthe things that I've loved.
I just was able to listen to ourchairman here at NYU, dr
Zuckerman, give an address abouthis career and one of the
biggest things he emphasized wasthis community aspect, and that
, to me, is the biggest thing torecognize is our role.
(21:09):
No matter what level you are at,we have privilege, we have a
pretty cool job and position,and there are people trying to
get to where we are and so justbeing aware and advocating and
that that is what you can dotalk about a nice structured way
like a actionable thing, and astructured thing is if you're in
(21:30):
that room and you, there's anopportunity to advocate.
There it is, and it doesn'thave to be in front of them, it
doesn't have to be anything likethat.
But, um, I think the fear ofdoing something wrong is we all
have it and I think that's whatI took from it most and I just
really try to emphasize mostbecause it's there's.
I found it very powerful when Ido have someone who does not
(21:52):
look or come from a backgroundlike me identify and pull me
along.
It's a game changer, it trulyis.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Yeah, aaron, you just hit on something that I think
is really important, like in theallyship space, but also just
in the inclusion space as well,and that's just awareness and
just like being willing tolisten.
In some of the organizationsthat I've worked with in the
past, some of the most powerfulchange that they have seen has
come from so a lot of companieswill do ERGs, so employee
(22:23):
resource groups right, andthey'll have these employee
resource groups for differentgroups Maybe it's like parents
or the black community in thatorganization and they'll have
senior leadership sponsor thoseERGs, and some of the best
movement I've seen is when asenior leader who's not a part
of the ERG sponsors an ERG andjust shows up at the meetings
(22:48):
and just listens and just bylistening, right.
So if you're not a parent, I'mnot a parent.
So I'll use that as an example.
If I'm not a parent, it's reallyhard for me to know the
challenges of parents in thespace that I sit.
How could I possibly know andunderstand the challenges that
they face or the things thatthey're dealing with if those
(23:09):
aren't the things that Ipersonally deal with?
And so just by showing up andsitting in the space, I become
more aware of challenges that Imight never have ever considered
, aware of challenges that Imight never have ever considered
.
And all of a sudden I go, ohwell, maybe we could do this
(23:29):
different and that would changethe whole game in this way for
this group.
And so having someone in seniorleadership or someone who sits
in a position of power just beopen to listening and becoming
more aware can be reallypowerful in building and
creating change and momentum inthis kind of work.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Love it.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you for that.
Yeah, I think that's huge.
Just going off of that, as wekind of wrap things up, are
there any things that actionabletips that we took from the
session or any favorites thatyou guys had?
I've got mine, so I've alreadygot one in my head, but anything
that you remember, just so wecan leave them with something
(24:08):
active.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Yeah, I remember, you know one of the participants
had mentioned you know it's justsomething small, but it was
like a sticker on someone'swater bottle that supported this
organization that you knowuplifts a certain, you know,
community of people.
You know that's such a small actand you know that, while it's
not a big act of allyship, butit's a powerful act of allyship
(24:32):
because, one, you know you'remaking a statement and then, two
, you're also, you know,inviting yourself to have, you
know, have conversations withpeople that might want to seek
you out and talk about thosekinds of things.
So it can be as small as that.
And then another you know,example that came out was, you
know, inviting a grand roundspeaker who you know might not
look like the rest of yourpractice.
(24:54):
So they don't come tonecessarily talk about diversity
or equity or inclusion, butthey come to talk about what
their specific research is on.
You know that can be a very bigstatement and you know also
very powerful in and of itself.
So you know, on both ends ofthe spectrum, you know you can
have actions that are, you know,very explicit but don't have to
(25:15):
be necessarily super, I don'tknow, in your face, I guess.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, so, mimi, if anybody hasDr Peterson as a grand round
speaker, she does not want totalk about it.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
So I feel like my example is going to be a downer,
but then I'm going to bring,I'm going to close, I'm going to
bring it back up, I promise.
But one of my it wasn'tnecessarily my favorite moment
in the session, but it endedwith like a moment that I loved.
I got a question during itduring the session you guys
might remember this that someonewas like well, what if I work
(25:54):
in a state where diversity isillegal and we can't do any of
this work and it's illegal to dothis work?
And my answer to that is alwaysbecause I get that question
sometimes in conversations isinclusion will never be illegal,
right, like it's just not, andlike you still have to better
(26:14):
your business and you still haveto support the people who are a
part of the work and youremployees and your staff and all
of the people who are comingafter you, and that's inclusion
and so that work will never beillegal and so, finding the way
to best support all of yourpeople, it will always work Well
.
So the person who asked thatquestion came up to me after the
(26:35):
session and they said thatanswer inclusion will never be
illegal is my new power linewhen I go back and they were
like I'm going to use it all thetime and anyone who tries to,
you know, take down this workand this momentum.
I'm going to use it in that waybecause I loved how you framed
it and that, to me, was thisreally positive moment of like.
(26:57):
So often I think we get stuckin challenges, like someone's
going to throw a challenge atyou oh, this is illegal in my
state.
Maybe not that grand of achallenge, but there's little
things that just come up andjust being, you know, like
having some momentum, some beingarmed with some ways that you
can think differently or getsomeone else to think
differently, can help change themomentum for this work, and so
(27:20):
that was actually one of myfavorite things at the end of
the session that came out of amoment that I was like oh, I
hate this question, but I'm gladit gave you momentum for later.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
I love that line.
That looks like the shirt thatI want.
Inclusion will never be illegalI mean, it might be a good
phrase to have on a shirt rightnow, yeah, and I almost don't
want to even follow that becauseI love that closure.
But I think the last thing thatI took and we kind of hit on
multiple times during thesession was just asking.
(27:52):
So not only just listening, butif you have a question, if you
want to know how someone wantsto be addressed, if you aren't
sure how someone took aninteraction or a situation, ask.
We are all people and that'spart of this job and it's
something that I'm working onevery day and I thought that
that was I don't remember whobrought that up and mentioned it
(28:13):
, but I think that's just a nice, easy, one-on-one thing that
you can do to buildrelationships and this
interdependence that you, if youwill.
So awesome.
I love this.
Thank you for joining metonight and revisiting this is
exactly what I thought wouldhappen.
I'd get energized again andhopefully people who listen to
it will also feel that.
(28:33):
Any kind of closing thoughts onthe session.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Just to follow up on your thing about asking like you
know, ultimately, you know,allyship is a practice and I
think it's okay to make mistakesalong the way and to learn from
them, and I think it's okay tolike extend grace to, like you
know, ourselves or to otherpeople, as we kind of all go
(28:56):
through this journey.
So I love that point aboutasking Erin.
I think it's so important andyou know it involves a degree of
vulnerability to like oh youknow, I'm not maybe very
knowledgeable in this area, canyou enlighten me?
So love that, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Yeah, and I would just say I'm really excited for
the next session.
I think that understanding howchallenging this work can be and
how it can personally impact,there's sort of a DEI burnout
that people and society andcultures are sort of like all
(29:31):
right, we've been talking aboutthat for a while, can we stop?
But there's also an individualDEI burnout.
When you do work that's hard,when you allow yourself to be
uncomfortable and say I don'tknow this or can someone help me
learn this, that can burn youout too.
And so I think it'll be reallypowerful for a lot of people who
have been working and want tomove this work forward in your
(29:54):
industry to kind of share inthat and kind of learn from that
in our next session.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah, I mean, it gets brought up every time we do a
symposia like this the burnoutside, so to have an entire
session based on it.
We hear you, we feel you andwe're excited to bring that to
everybody.
So I'm looking forward to thatat the next AOA meeting.
So, again, we are going to pullthe postcards and try to get
those sent out to the people whohave them.
(30:22):
We do want those to be littlereminders to everybody.
And, yeah, look out for thenext session that will involve
the good Bethany Adams and DrPeterson as well.
But thank you both for yourtime again.
This was great and we will seeyou soon.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Thank you, Thanks Erin.
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