August 29, 2025 • 33 mins
What makes a great orthopaedic leader? Dr. Alex Ghanayem, fresh off his term as the 137th President of the American Orthopaedic Association (AOA), shares candid reflections on leadership, legacy, and the future of orthopaedic surgery in this thought-provoking conversation with podcast host, Dr. Doug Lundy.
Dr. Ghanayem brings refreshing humility to his assessment of presidential leadership, emphasizing that the organization's strength lies in its committee members and chairs doing the essential work. His greatest satisfaction came not from personal accomplishment but from identifying emerging leaders who will guide orthopaedics through future challenges.
Hear the advice that resonates far beyond orthopaedics: balance subspecialty expertise with broader engagement, develop interests outside medicine (like Dr. Ghanayem’s own wildlife photography), and recognize that leadership service provides returns far exceeding what you invest.
Listen to discover how orthopaedic leadership principles might transform your own approach to medicine and career development.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (00:24):
Welcome to the AOA Future in
Orthopaedic Surgery podcastseries.
This AOA podcast series willfocus on the future in
orthopaedic surgery and theimpact on leaders in our
profession.
These podcasts will focus onthe vast spectrum of change that
will occur.
As the future reveals itself,we will consider changes as they
occur in the domains of culture, employment, technology, scope
(00:53):
of practice, compensation andother areas.
My name is Doug Lundy, host forthis podcast series.
Joining us today is Dr.
Alex Ghanayem.
Dr.
Ghanayem is chair and professorof orthopaedic surgery at
Loyola in Chicago.
He served on the AmericanOrthopaedic Association
Executive Committee as treasurerand then, most recently, as the
137th president of the AOA.
He spent his entireprofessional career at Loyola
(01:17):
University, Chicago StritchSchool of Medicine.
He was named the Dr.
William H.
Scholl Professor and Chair ofLoyola's Department of
Orthopaedic Surgery andRehabilitation in 2016.
In 2021, he also assumed therole of Loyola Medicine's
Medical Group Chief MedicalOfficer, leading an 850
multi-specialty physician andadvanced practice provider group
(01:40):
in providing care at a largetertiary academic medical center
and two community hospitals.
His clinical interest is inspine surgery, focusing on
degenerative and traumaticconditions involving the spine.
He went to medical school atNorthwestern did his residency
at Case Western Reserve and hisfellowship at the University of
Wisconsin in spine surgery.
So, Dr.
Ghanayem, welcome to thepodcast series, sir.
(02:03):
Thanks for having me, Doug.
Alex, it's truly a pleasuretalking with you today.
You just rolled off as the137th president of the AOA,
handing the reins to Dr.
Kyle Jeray.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (02:22):
What are your thoughts after a long
year of being president of ouresteemed organization.
Well, you know, first of all,I'm really happy that Kyle is
sitting in that role right nowbecause I mean, like I said at
the meeting, I mean I waspreceded by people that were
really well qualified anddedicated to the organization
and friends and the people thatare following are in the same
boat.
So, you know, I'm really happyfor you know Kyle personally but
(02:44):
the organization is reallygoing to benefit because our
leadership pipeline, or ourleaders that are currently
serving, you know, really arehigh quality people and
dedicated to the organization.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (02:56):
That's oh, that couldn't be more true.
I mean, you look around at theall the folks, not just
necessarily on the executivecommittee and not just
necessarily chairing thecommittees themselves, but as
you go all the way down intostaff in the committees and even
the attendees at the annualmeeting.
I've always said it's a who'swho in orthopaedic surgery and
if you want to get somethingdone, that's the room to get it
in your thoughts.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (03:17):
Yeah , I think that the people that
are involved are concerned aboutlarger issues.
I mean, obviously, day to day,you get down to the individual
patient.
That is the fabric of what wedo.
I mean, we take care of peopleand we help solve their problems
.
But you know there's a largerarena around that.
You know that starts with justmaking sure that our workforce,
(03:40):
that our residents, are properlyeducated and to make sure that
the environment by which weprovide care is set up in a way
where it's patient-centric andit's reliable in its ability to
do what's right and what's bestfor the patient and for our
students.
Over and over and over again,despite the fact that you know
(04:01):
what I call the barbarians atthe gate, you know all the
things that are lined up againstus you know we still have to
head above that and execute forthe benefit of the country and
our patients and society thingskind of pop to mind in terms of
(04:23):
notable events or or things thatwill be, you know, flashes in
your memory as you move forwardover your year as president of
the AOA.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAO (04:31):
Anything comes specifically that rings a
bell, that would be interestingor something that you could
reflect on in the future.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAO (04:38):
You know, here's a little secret
for you, being president's not abig deal, okay, I mean, think
about it for a second.
You've got a bunch of peoplethat are on committees, that are
working hard, and then you'vegot a bunch of committee chairs
that are, you know, herding allof us cats, if you will, because
(04:59):
you know how we are.
You know we're high performers,we're doing this or doing that,
we're multi-engaged, and thenthese committee chairs, some of
which are sitting on executivecommittee, will report up to
other executive committeemembers are or they're digging
the, they're, they're drawingout the, the roads, they're
digging the ditches, they'relaying the concrete, and all you
(05:21):
got to do is president and sayit's like, yeah, make sure, and
that looks good.
Who wants to vote for this roadto be named?
You know, Doug Lundy way andthen you do it and so the thing
that's the most fun about beingpresident and having having been
one of those entry-levelcommittee people and then you
(05:41):
know a little subcommittee chair, then a committee chair, then
executive it's the fun part ofit is watching people and saying
that guy, that girl, thatresident, they're going places.
You could see in them thecommitment to the organization,
the commitment to mission.
That's the fun part.
(06:01):
And you make all these littlemicro observations about people
and you know this is someonethat's going to be important 10
years from now, 20 years fromnow, 30 years from now.
That's that's the fun part ofbeing president is is seeing
that, that, that growth inpeople, that commitment and
being able to kind of smilebehind the curtain and go.
(06:22):
I wish there was a video rightnow Because you get this big
Cheshire Cat type smile andgoing.
This is going to be good and Ihope I'm alive to see it.
For some of them I hope I'mlike Mac Evarts and come to the
meeting when I'm in my 90s andhaving all my marbles, because
(06:42):
that's the fun part is seeingpeople develop and become more
ingrained in the fabric thatmakes us what we are.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (06:50):
So I can totally resonate to a little
bit different degree that whatyou're talking about.
I'm currently the president ofthe orthopedic trauma
association and it's it was alittle anticlimactic, right.
I mean you're like, okay, herewe are and really all you do is
watch everybody do all the coolthings that they're doing and
kind of coordinate across thematrix.
But specifically, people wouldask me go, what is your thing
(07:13):
going to be?
What is your legacy as OTApresident?
And I thought long and hardabout it and I said you know,
really, what right do I have asOTA president to put my
fingerprint on anything otherthan move the five-year
strategic plan another 20 yardsdown the field?
That's what my legacy should beis not putting my individual
(07:36):
mark on it, but moving theorganization, making sure we
keep heading the right thing andthen, as I hand off to Tom
Higgins, tom moves at another 20yards.
What are your thoughts relativeto that?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAOA (07:50):
So , you know, in the post-COVID
world, the game plan has changedand we can go in such a deep
rabbit hole in that.
But when I was beinginterviewed to enter the
presidential line, the five-yearplan wasn't enough.
I mean, it's the 10-year planand it's almost like what we do
(08:13):
today.
People may not even realize thebenefit of it in the next one
to two or three years.
And I was treasurer of anotherorganization and we had done
something very different withthat organization from a fiscal
standpoint back in 2017.
And then I got a call maybe sixmonths ago from the executive
(08:36):
director and said you know, wewere talking about you today,
eight years later, wow, andeverybody was so happy about
that idea you had and the wayyou led us in our fiscal plan
and how we changed things.
And it's like, okay, you know,I do have an ego All right, you
know, it's a slightly healthyone.
(08:57):
I immediately, you know, sat upreal straight and kind of felt
good about it.
But in my mind I thought,exactly, you know, and it was
okay.
People remembered, fine, butwhat was more important is that
they realized that something hadhappened with a real long game
in mind and we were at adecision point that we had to,
(09:20):
you know, do something different.
And we worked through it and itturned out.
And I think you know that's.
You know it's almost likeAmerican presidents.
You know, the further away youget from them, the smarter they
sound.
You know, like you know someonethat was president 30 years ago
or 40 years ago sure sounds ahell of a lot better today than
they did the day they leftoffice.
You know it's, it's a littlebit like that, but no one's
(09:42):
really keeping track of us inthe media, which is kind of good
, but it's that long-termthinking.
And so we need to make somechanges in how the organization
runs, how we engage leaders.
Who are the leaders?
The standard academic practicedoesn't exist anymore in the way
that we thought about it 10,you know, 10 years ago, 15 years
(10:04):
ago, 20 years ago, and notbecause we're not dedicated to
that, but it's because ofsituations, you know, and issues
beyond our control that arechanging the face of healthcare.
And so you know who are thepeople we want on the bus, what
do they look like, what aretheir genetics, what do their
DNA look like?
How have they been successful?
(10:24):
What can they contribute to theorganization?
Those are things I think we dodifferently, which still keeps
the mission front and center,but it allows us to to really
stay true to the mission whilesecuring the mission and the
success of the organization.
And those are.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (10:41):
Those are hard things to put your
finger on, but if you think longyou can, you can lay the
foundation for it tertiary andquaternary medical centers, but
(11:08):
there's been a more recent focus, recognizing that there's a lot
of strong, dynamic leadershipwithin the private practice
sector, specifically withinOrthoForum and the other huge
mega groups in America, and thelarge medium-sized groups as
well, in terms of trying tolearn from those leaders and
also have those leaders join usand share information with them.
So what are your thoughts onthis new diversification of the
(11:32):
membership base and what we'retrying to do?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAOA (11:36):
So what I would say to that is
you've almost got it right.
Okay, those large non-academicgroups, and there's a lot of
different ways to look at them.
There are leaders in thosegroups that need to be part of
the American Rampage Association.
But I would take it down evento the.
Just take the two-person group,the three-person group, and if
(12:00):
there's somebody in that groupthat says you know what?
The education I had was reallyimportant, that person needs to
be engaged in the AOA.
And if that person says theeducation I had was lacking,
that person needs to be engagedin the American Orthopaedic
Association.
(12:26):
Any of those people consume ourproducts, whether it's regional
meetings, whether it's theannual meeting leadership
institute.
If they have an interest inwhat we're talking about, that
person should be a member of theorganization.
If they're concerned about thespecialty, they may be a leader
of one and their voices need tobe heard.
And their voices need to beheard.
They may have great.
You may be in a small 15,000person town, in a county of
(12:49):
80,000 people, but yet you'restill a leader in the operating
room, you're a leader in youroffice, you're a leader in your
community and you may have ideas, contributions to make to the
organization.
That'll benefit theorganization, you know, just
because you know I have a DAOchair and I'm a full professor
and yada yada yada doesn't meanI have all the right ideas.
(13:12):
So, yes, the big mega groups,absolutely.
The medium-sized groups, sure,but to the individual that
believes in what we're doing andcares about our specialty, that
person needs a pathway, needsto be welcomed in the
organization.
The contributions could beimmense.
You never know.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (13:34):
Yeah, I'm glad to hear you say that I
just sponsored or nominated JimBarber, who is in private solo
practice down in South Georgia,but he also happens to be the
vice chair of the board ofcounselors for the academy.
So once again a guy in solopractice been to Jim's practice.
That's pretty close to themiddle of nowhere.
Yet he's shown extensively andwe fortunately now have him
(13:57):
within our ranks.
That's a good point.
So we've been around a longtime.
We formed the American Board ofOrthopaedic Surgery.
We formed the American Academyof Orthopaedic Surgery.
We'd be in the AOA Of coursenot you or me.
So, and Kyle is currently a138th president.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, F (14:18):
Where do you see the AOA going from
here in the future?
You know, if you think aboutour mission, it's only forward.
I mean, this is not a selfishmission, this is a mission that
benefits society.
And so we're going to havehurdles, we're going to have
challenges.
I mean, just look at what'shappening with healthcare
economics right now.
(14:38):
There's going to be so manychallenges, but our mission is
going to keep us sound, it'sgoing to keep us safe and
fortunately there's enoughpeople in this specialty that
believe in it that if they haveto carry the mission on their
backs and walk uphill in snow,both directions to and from our
headquarters they'll do it.
Both directions, you know, toand from our headquarters
(15:00):
they'll do it.
And so I think we're going tobe successful in the short term,
the near term, the midterm andthe long term.
I have total confidence andfaith in our organization.
We're an institution I mean wefounded in 1887.
Look what we've been through Acouple of world wars, you know a
couple of other, you knowmid-sized wars, all kinds of
(15:22):
politics, you know thedepression, market crashes, you
know COVID.
We've been through everything,and yet here we are, we're still
going.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (15:33):
So what challenges do you see facing
the AAOA?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (15:37):
Well , I mean, the challenges we have
are shared by everybody.
You know some of those.
You know the economicchallenges.
You know the dollars are valueadded Benefits that we provide
to membership and to traineesare always going to be under
threat.
I mean, that's just.
You know.
Take AOA and replace it withOTA or AAOS or OREF or anybody,
(16:03):
and our residency.
You know training programs, ourown hospitals.
That's going to be asubstantial challenge going
forward because you know thereare not a lot of people that
care about what we do, thatcontrol all the dollars, and and
so you know there's, there'sthe list of people ahead of us
(16:23):
is long.
So I think that you know theeconomic challenges are going to
be substantial, but I think wehave a game plan.
You know, through philanthropy,member engagement and the
dedication of our, of ourmembership, to make sure that we
can overcome that.
And then you know the membershipissues.
You know the being pulled in 14different directions to do 18
(16:44):
different things.
I mean we're good at that.
I mean, as orthopaedic surgeons, we're pretty good at
multitasking, but we have tomake sure that we don't we don't
burn our members out.
And then we provide a platformfor what I call free members and
members to remain engaged andto really and then we provide a
platform for what I call freemembers and members to remain
engaged and to really get thatvalue added benefit from being
(17:06):
part of something special likethe American Orthopaedic
Association.
Why do we do it?
I mean, you know, the time is afiscal draw out of us and we
give up family time, we give upwork time, but what, what makes
us tick?
And and fortunately it's thatmission, and and that mission is
so important that people arewilling to make those sacrifices
(17:29):
such a great thing?
Douglas Lundy, MD, F (17:31):
absolutely , I think.
And I've I got to interact somedegree, moderating the
symposium last year on residentunions where Lisa Lufthansa
asked us to involve some of thecarousel presidents in our
symposium, and it was very, veryinteresting talking with those
folks.
(17:51):
So certainly you've got to meetquite your share of the
English-speaking orthopedicpresidents across the globe
during your year while you wereon Carousel.
Any notable experiences orvignettes that you glean from
these spectacular men and womenas they lead our sister
organizations across the globe?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAO (18:13):
You know we'll leave the fun stuff
out for the podcast, if that'sokay.
Okay, just this time.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (18:16):
What happens in South Africa stays in
South Africa.
We'll leave the fun stuff outfor the podcast, if that's okay.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (18:18):
Okay , just this time.
Yeah, what happens in SouthAfrica stays in South Africa.
You know, they're all indifferent healthcare delivery
systems.
Their training programs aresomewhat different.
I mean, I was at the NewZealand organization and they
were having their big banquet atthe end of the meeting and they
were graduating their residents.
I can't remember.
(18:39):
I think there was 10 or 11.
There could have been 15.
I'm not sure For the wholecountry.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (18:45):
Oh my gosh.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAO (18:46):
And so I mean that's.
You know.
I think there's a number ofprograms that have, you know,
between 12 or 10 and 12, 10 and13, just in their program, you
know, but the challenges are thesame.
I mean, you know they still putin one screw at a time.
You know the bones still breakthe same way and the biology of
(19:07):
patients is all the same andleadership's the same.
I mean you know, whether you'refighting the challenges set up
by a provincial government or bya bureaucratic system that
governs your resident education,or dealing with issues of
access to care, I mean, forwhatever reason, they're all the
(19:29):
same.
It's like the NBA versus the NFLversus the NHL.
I mean it's still a contestbetween two teams.
You have the puck, the ball.
It's different, the number ofplayers per side are different.
You know you're still trying toscore, but the game is
different.
And there are things that arethe same Patience, people,
(19:52):
teamwork, patience, again, theway they heal and the problems
they have.
But the circus around it isjust just over, so slightly
different.
But the pathway to success isis common.
You know you have to stayfocused on the mission which a
goal is in.
You know leverage what we know.
(20:14):
You know education, science andgetting to where we need to be,
and then you have to deal withthe weeds of each country, each
organization that has to dealwith each set of weeds which are
slightly different, but we havethe same challenges.
You know, it's somethingbetween us and executing on our
mission to providemusculoskeletal care and to
(20:36):
advocate for it for the benefitof society.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (20:39):
Were you at the Australian meeting in
Brisbane?
Yes, yeah, I was there too.
I was the Australia OrthopaedicAssociation as a guest nation
at the Trauma Association thisyear.
I was there representing themand I did a talk comparing the
US, the Canadian because our OTApresident at the time was
Canadian and the Australiansystem.
(21:00):
And, to your point, access inAustralia, access in Canada,
blows away any access problemswe have in the US.
It was just amazing at theproblems that we have.
Other countries actually havemuch worse, but they also do
some pretty savvy, innovativestuff that we should maybe
(21:22):
consider.
Is there anything that youpicked up along the way that you
thought you know the UShealthcare system should try
that in a microcosm experimentto maybe see if it'll work here.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (21:33):
Yeah , I think those little
end-to-rounds that they use arepossible because the systems are
different.
You know, the players are alittle different and the goals
of the players are different.
I mean you don't have, you know, major health care insurance
carriers in Canada, per se, thathas perhaps a different goal
than the NHS in England, and youknow two tier systems you may
(21:55):
see in other places likeAustralia, new or South Africa
for that matter.
The cost of providing that careis so much different.
I mean, just, you know what wepay in malpractice in this
country, what we pay to executeour billing in this country
compared to, I mean, whathappens in Canada, is just so
different, is just so different.
(22:17):
But those end-of-rounds arepossible because the systems are
a little bit different andthey've learned how to leverage
the holes in the system.
And so think about theend-of-rounds you use in your
place or the ones we use in ourplace.
They're harder to do becausethere's so many other
constraints and there's so manyother people with thumbs in the
healthcare pie, if you will.
(22:38):
Pie is big but there's.
You know what's it called whenyou have like 20 fingers on a
hand.
Besides polydactyly, you know,there's like 40 thumbs meets pie
.
So I think everyone'schallenges are different and
everyone's ways of dealing withthem are different, but I think
we have some advantages here.
We do spend a lot of money onhealthcare and access is a
(22:59):
little bit better, depending onyour sponsorship whether you
have non-government sponsorshipor a certain type of government
sponsorship and what happenswith Medicaid down the road is
going to be a real problem, butI think we're still in a better
place than others we're still ina better place than than others
.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (23:20):
So being president of the AOA, I
mean you and the Academypresident are pretty much atop
the biggest, most prestigiousorganizations in orthopaedic
surgery in the country and havea unique view of the healthcare
delivery system, especiallyduring that year.
Any thoughts, reflections,vignettes that you picked up
over that year that you kind ofcan reflect on, and how
(23:43):
orthopaedic surgery is practicedand delivered across the United
States and North America?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAOA (23:49):
I think from the at the individual
level it's practiced withenthusiasm.
You know, you genuinely stillsee at the early, mid and late
stages of people's career thatthey enjoy what they're doing.
I mean, I don't take colonyanymore, I've aged out, but I
just really dread having to getup at midnight and go in for a 2
(24:12):
am spine case.
It just sucked, it just itsucked.
(24:37):
But but you know, once, once wemade the incision and the
resident operating together, itwas just fun again.
You know the, the, thedisruption in your sleep, you
know, and now two days torecover after missing a night of
sleep versus just one, and thedisruption to your practice.
It all went away and in themoment we were having fun and I
almost, you almost still feellike a kid again.
And I see that regardless ofwhere people practice, you know
you talk to the Canadians, youknow the Americans, even to the
other English speakingorganizations yeah, there's
always exception.
There's always a curmudgeon inthe corner somewhere that they I
(24:57):
should never have done this, Ishould have done something else
with my career, I should havebeen a kosher butcher like my
brother or something like that.
But they still, when they talkabout operating, they still get
the little twinkle and theyenjoy that patient care part.
That's something we kind ofhave really special in
orthopaedics.
I'm not sure it exists in everyspecialty and I don't know
(25:19):
whether it's because we're we'resimple orthopaedic surgeons or
we're gifted orthopaedicsurgeons or something in between
or a combination of both.
But that's something I've seeneverywhere and geographically
and stage and career.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (25:34):
What advice would you give your
residents or your recentgraduates in terms of let's
suppose that they are beingnominated for AOA membership in
the future?
What advice would you give themregarding our organization, how
they should invest their timein it?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (25:53):
This is, and a way to think about
this is left brain, right brain.
You've got art and science onone side I mean art and
literature on one side andscience and math on the other.
So you're a trauma guy and soyou need to go to your trauma
meeting.
You need to roll up yoursleeves, get engaged.
But you're an orthopedicsurgeon and you need to invest
(26:17):
yourself in things that crossover all disciplines, whether
it's the education of ourresidents and you may never be
an educator in the future butguess what?
You got a farm team that you'regoing to hire partners from.
You think you might beinterested in that farm team and
how good the players are comingout of that farm team.
So better believe you'll beit's.
(26:39):
You know, the smart people thatare in non-academic practices
want to make sure that the farmteam is working really well,
because that's your futurepartner coming out of those farm
teams.
You need to cross-talk with adifferent subspecialist.
If you talk to trauma guys allday, you'd probably be pretty
bored.
I know I'm pretty bored talkingto spine guys all day.
Trauma guys are kind ofcolorful.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (26:58):
So if you talk, to trauma guys all day
.
You'd probably be pretty bored.
I know I'm pretty bored talkingto spine guys all day, and so
Trauma guys are kind of colorfulso they keep you entertained.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (27:03):
It's , it's, but you know you hear
the same joke over and overagain.
It gets kind of tiring.
So this is a place where youget to cross disciplines, you
know.
You get to shed your, your,your specialty and remember why
you became a right-take surgeonand then work toward your goals
of education, guiding the futureof musculoskeletal care for
(27:25):
everybody.
And that's the other side ofyour brain, and if all you do is
focus on one side of your brainand forget the other, you're
really missing out.
So I think what I would tell myresidents is find the value
added in something outside ofyour own subspecialty and don't
forget about that and keepconsuming that, Because what
(27:50):
you'll learn from other peoplethat are similar but a little
different than you, and whatyou'll learn in looking at the
bigger picture from a 10,000 or20,000 or 30,000 foot view is
going to be so different thanwhat size drill bit to use for
what size screw, and that'sgoing to make you a better
person and a better physiciandown the road.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAO (28:10):
Speaking of which, I was looking at your
bio, and you published a paperin JBJS on wild horses.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (28:16):
Yeah .
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (28:18):
What was that all about?
I didn't look at it yet.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAO (28:23):
You know, it's that special section
in JBJS of arts and humanitiesand I think what they're trying
to accomplish is to make surethat we're using the other half
of our brain, and so if youfollow that series, there's all
kinds of cool things that arenot nuts and bolts and no
p-values and you know no statsand most of the time not even
anything to do with a specificyou know fracture or injury.
(28:46):
It's just something differentand that person that uses both
sides of their brain can relateto patients better.
And I think when Mark startedthat Mark Slonkowski, I think
that was his goal.
And so you know I'd given atalk at the 1887 dinner on
something unrelated to medicine,on America's wild horses, and
(29:09):
then he wanted me and wildlifephotography is my hobby and he
said listen, I want you to writea short article for the arts
and humanities section.
So I did, and it's just anotherpart of me, but it's just
something different.
You would not expect that fromsomebody that's wearing loops
and doing a spine case.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (29:29):
Or would you Living in Chicago?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (29:31):
Yeah , or would you?
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (29:33):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah, or would you?
And speaking of which I meanRex Hayden.
I guess he'll be the 140thpresident, Is that right?
Because he follows Steve Cates?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAOA (29:42):
I need to get my calculator out to
count that guy.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (29:45):
Yes, you guys are racking up those
years, but Rex, at the 1887dinner this year, rex talked
about the headhunters.
I believe it was Peru.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAOA (29:53):
I mean, archaeology is his gig, I
mean archaeology is his gig.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (29:57):
I mean, archaeology is crazy.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (29:58):
Yeah , but I mean it's a flashy title
, but you know, here's the otherhalf of his brain.
You know, rex Hayden is notjust a nutty professor when it
comes to oncology, he's a nuttyprofessor like Indiana Jones,
you know, right, Looking atrelics in South America, that's
cool, that's cool.
(30:18):
That's cool.
That's really different abouthim, but it shows another facet
of the individual and you knowthe things you do when you're on
digs and relating to you knowlocal laborers and people that
have similar interests.
It's team building, again youknow.
It's understanding yourenvironment, again, where do you
(30:39):
hear that Sound?
Like the operating room alittle bit.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (30:42):
Yeah, absolutely All right, boss,
parting shot here as the pastpresident of our esteemed
organization, any parting shotthoughts in terms of future in
orthopaedic surgery, future inAOA, future in AOA, future in
leadership in our profession.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAO (30:58):
You know, when I became a member of
the organization, I had noaspirations of being its
president.
I mean, if someone said to me,whatever it was, 2004, you know
you're going to be AOA presidentsomeday, I would have laughed
at them so hard, okay, hard,okay.
(31:25):
And so what I would tell youngmembers and members is no matter
how busy things get, then youknow the rvu and the next clinic
visit, and then you knowanother surgery I don't forget
about, about why you're anorthopaedic surgeon, what the
the goal of our profession is,and don't forget to exercise the
other part of that brain,because the value I've gotten I
mean the time served, you know,and everything else I've put in
(31:49):
the organization I've gotten 100times back in terms of you know
what it's done for me quietly,as an individual, and what I've
been able to gather from the AOAand then give back to my
colleagues that I lead mydepartment.
Just little things, littletrinkets of, little pearls of
wisdom, little ways of doingthings, ways of working with
(32:12):
people and dealing withstruggles and developing their
own personal leadership, and sothis gives us back so much more
than we put into it.
But it takes you a little timeto realize that it's like a
little investing in yourself andthe specialty and then in the
people that work around you andthat you hope that will be
(32:33):
taking care of you someday whenyou need their help.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (32:36):
Very well said.
That's excellent.
Closing there.
So it's been my absolutepleasure to have this time
discussing future in orthopaedicsurgery and leadership with Dr.
Alex Ghanayem, who is a spinesurgeon.
He's chair at Loyola and, mostrecently, the 137th president of
the American OrthopaedicAssociation.
(32:57):
Dr.
Ghanayem, thank you, sir, forspending this time with us.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAOA (33:02):
My pleasure.
I'll do it again if you want.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (33:04):
All right, let's do that and we look
forward to seeing y'all againon other futures in orthopaedic
surgery and this AOA podcastchannel.
Thank you.
Welcome to the AOA Future in
Orthopaedic Surgery podcastseries.
This AOA podcast series willfocus on the future in
orthopaedic surgery and theimpact on leaders in our
profession.
These podcasts will focus onthe vast spectrum of change that
will occur.
As the future reveals itself,we will consider changes as they
occur in the domains of culture, employment, technology, scope
(00:53):
of practice, compensation andother areas.
My name is Doug Lundy, host forthis podcast series.
Joining us today is Dr.
Alex Ghanayem.
Dr.
Ghanayem is chair and professorof orthopaedic surgery at
Loyola in Chicago.
He served on the AmericanOrthopaedic Association
Executive Committee as treasurerand then, most recently, as the
137th president of the AOA.
He spent his entireprofessional career at Loyola
(01:17):
University, Chicago StritchSchool of Medicine.
He was named the Dr.
William H.
Scholl Professor and Chair ofLoyola's Department of
Orthopaedic Surgery andRehabilitation in 2016.
In 2021, he also assumed therole of Loyola Medicine's
Medical Group Chief MedicalOfficer, leading an 850
multi-specialty physician andadvanced practice provider group
(01:40):
in providing care at a largetertiary academic medical center
and two community hospitals.
His clinical interest is inspine surgery, focusing on
degenerative and traumaticconditions involving the spine.
He went to medical school atNorthwestern did his residency
at Case Western Reserve and hisfellowship at the University of
Wisconsin in spine surgery.
So, Dr.
Ghanayem, welcome to thepodcast series, sir.
(02:03):
Thanks for having me, Doug.
Alex, it's truly a pleasuretalking with you today.
You just rolled off as the137th president of the AOA,
handing the reins to Dr.
Kyle Jeray.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (02:22):
What are your thoughts after a long
year of being president of ouresteemed organization.
Well, you know, first of all,I'm really happy that Kyle is
sitting in that role right nowbecause I mean, like I said at
the meeting, I mean I waspreceded by people that were
really well qualified anddedicated to the organization
and friends and the people thatare following are in the same
boat.
So, you know, I'm really happyfor you know Kyle personally but
(02:44):
the organization is reallygoing to benefit because our
leadership pipeline, or ourleaders that are currently
serving, you know, really arehigh quality people and
dedicated to the organization.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (02:56):
That's oh, that couldn't be more true.
I mean, you look around at theall the folks, not just
necessarily on the executivecommittee and not just
necessarily chairing thecommittees themselves, but as
you go all the way down intostaff in the committees and even
the attendees at the annualmeeting.
I've always said it's a who'swho in orthopaedic surgery and
if you want to get somethingdone, that's the room to get it
in your thoughts.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (03:17):
Yeah , I think that the people that
are involved are concerned aboutlarger issues.
I mean, obviously, day to day,you get down to the individual
patient.
That is the fabric of what wedo.
I mean, we take care of peopleand we help solve their problems
.
But you know there's a largerarena around that.
You know that starts with justmaking sure that our workforce,
(03:40):
that our residents, are properlyeducated and to make sure that
the environment by which weprovide care is set up in a way
where it's patient-centric andit's reliable in its ability to
do what's right and what's bestfor the patient and for our
students.
Over and over and over again,despite the fact that you know
(04:01):
what I call the barbarians atthe gate, you know all the
things that are lined up againstus you know we still have to
head above that and execute forthe benefit of the country and
our patients and society thingskind of pop to mind in terms of
(04:23):
notable events or or things thatwill be, you know, flashes in
your memory as you move forwardover your year as president of
the AOA.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAO (04:31):
Anything comes specifically that rings a
bell, that would be interestingor something that you could
reflect on in the future.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAO (04:38):
You know, here's a little secret
for you, being president's not abig deal, okay, I mean, think
about it for a second.
You've got a bunch of peoplethat are on committees, that are
working hard, and then you'vegot a bunch of committee chairs
that are, you know, herding allof us cats, if you will, because
(04:59):
you know how we are.
You know we're high performers,we're doing this or doing that,
we're multi-engaged, and thenthese committee chairs, some of
which are sitting on executivecommittee, will report up to
other executive committeemembers are or they're digging
the, they're, they're drawingout the, the roads, they're
digging the ditches, they'relaying the concrete, and all you
(05:21):
got to do is president and sayit's like, yeah, make sure, and
that looks good.
Who wants to vote for this roadto be named?
You know, Doug Lundy way andthen you do it and so the thing
that's the most fun about beingpresident and having having been
one of those entry-levelcommittee people and then you
(05:41):
know a little subcommittee chair, then a committee chair, then
executive it's the fun part ofit is watching people and saying
that guy, that girl, thatresident, they're going places.
You could see in them thecommitment to the organization,
the commitment to mission.
That's the fun part.
(06:01):
And you make all these littlemicro observations about people
and you know this is someonethat's going to be important 10
years from now, 20 years fromnow, 30 years from now.
That's that's the fun part ofbeing president is is seeing
that, that, that growth inpeople, that commitment and
being able to kind of smilebehind the curtain and go.
(06:22):
I wish there was a video rightnow Because you get this big
Cheshire Cat type smile andgoing.
This is going to be good and Ihope I'm alive to see it.
For some of them I hope I'mlike Mac Evarts and come to the
meeting when I'm in my 90s andhaving all my marbles, because
(06:42):
that's the fun part is seeingpeople develop and become more
ingrained in the fabric thatmakes us what we are.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (06:50):
So I can totally resonate to a little
bit different degree that whatyou're talking about.
I'm currently the president ofthe orthopedic trauma
association and it's it was alittle anticlimactic, right.
I mean you're like, okay, herewe are and really all you do is
watch everybody do all the coolthings that they're doing and
kind of coordinate across thematrix.
But specifically, people wouldask me go, what is your thing
(07:13):
going to be?
What is your legacy as OTApresident?
And I thought long and hardabout it and I said you know,
really, what right do I have asOTA president to put my
fingerprint on anything otherthan move the five-year
strategic plan another 20 yardsdown the field?
That's what my legacy should beis not putting my individual
(07:36):
mark on it, but moving theorganization, making sure we
keep heading the right thing andthen, as I hand off to Tom
Higgins, tom moves at another 20yards.
What are your thoughts relativeto that?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAOA (07:50):
So , you know, in the post-COVID
world, the game plan has changedand we can go in such a deep
rabbit hole in that.
But when I was beinginterviewed to enter the
presidential line, the five-yearplan wasn't enough.
I mean, it's the 10-year planand it's almost like what we do
(08:13):
today.
People may not even realize thebenefit of it in the next one
to two or three years.
And I was treasurer of anotherorganization and we had done
something very different withthat organization from a fiscal
standpoint back in 2017.
And then I got a call maybe sixmonths ago from the executive
(08:36):
director and said you know, wewere talking about you today,
eight years later, wow, andeverybody was so happy about
that idea you had and the wayyou led us in our fiscal plan
and how we changed things.
And it's like, okay, you know,I do have an ego All right, you
know, it's a slightly healthyone.
(08:57):
I immediately, you know, sat upreal straight and kind of felt
good about it.
But in my mind I thought,exactly, you know, and it was
okay.
People remembered, fine, butwhat was more important is that
they realized that something hadhappened with a real long game
in mind and we were at adecision point that we had to,
(09:20):
you know, do something different.
And we worked through it and itturned out.
And I think you know that's.
You know it's almost likeAmerican presidents.
You know, the further away youget from them, the smarter they
sound.
You know, like you know someonethat was president 30 years ago
or 40 years ago sure sounds ahell of a lot better today than
they did the day they leftoffice.
You know it's, it's a littlebit like that, but no one's
(09:42):
really keeping track of us inthe media, which is kind of good
, but it's that long-termthinking.
And so we need to make somechanges in how the organization
runs, how we engage leaders.
Who are the leaders?
The standard academic practicedoesn't exist anymore in the way
that we thought about it 10,you know, 10 years ago, 15 years
(10:04):
ago, 20 years ago, and notbecause we're not dedicated to
that, but it's because ofsituations, you know, and issues
beyond our control that arechanging the face of healthcare.
And so you know who are thepeople we want on the bus, what
do they look like, what aretheir genetics, what do their
DNA look like?
How have they been successful?
(10:24):
What can they contribute to theorganization?
Those are things I think we dodifferently, which still keeps
the mission front and center,but it allows us to to really
stay true to the mission whilesecuring the mission and the
success of the organization.
And those are.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (10:41):
Those are hard things to put your
finger on, but if you think longyou can, you can lay the
foundation for it tertiary andquaternary medical centers, but
(11:08):
there's been a more recent focus, recognizing that there's a lot
of strong, dynamic leadershipwithin the private practice
sector, specifically withinOrthoForum and the other huge
mega groups in America, and thelarge medium-sized groups as
well, in terms of trying tolearn from those leaders and
also have those leaders join usand share information with them.
So what are your thoughts onthis new diversification of the
(11:32):
membership base and what we'retrying to do?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAOA (11:36):
So what I would say to that is
you've almost got it right.
Okay, those large non-academicgroups, and there's a lot of
different ways to look at them.
There are leaders in thosegroups that need to be part of
the American Rampage Association.
But I would take it down evento the.
Just take the two-person group,the three-person group, and if
(12:00):
there's somebody in that groupthat says you know what?
The education I had was reallyimportant, that person needs to
be engaged in the AOA.
And if that person says theeducation I had was lacking,
that person needs to be engagedin the American Orthopaedic
Association.
(12:26):
Any of those people consume ourproducts, whether it's regional
meetings, whether it's theannual meeting leadership
institute.
If they have an interest inwhat we're talking about, that
person should be a member of theorganization.
If they're concerned about thespecialty, they may be a leader
of one and their voices need tobe heard.
And their voices need to beheard.
They may have great.
You may be in a small 15,000person town, in a county of
(12:49):
80,000 people, but yet you'restill a leader in the operating
room, you're a leader in youroffice, you're a leader in your
community and you may have ideas, contributions to make to the
organization.
That'll benefit theorganization, you know, just
because you know I have a DAOchair and I'm a full professor
and yada yada yada doesn't meanI have all the right ideas.
(13:12):
So, yes, the big mega groups,absolutely.
The medium-sized groups, sure,but to the individual that
believes in what we're doing andcares about our specialty, that
person needs a pathway, needsto be welcomed in the
organization.
The contributions could beimmense.
You never know.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (13:34):
Yeah, I'm glad to hear you say that I
just sponsored or nominated JimBarber, who is in private solo
practice down in South Georgia,but he also happens to be the
vice chair of the board ofcounselors for the academy.
So once again a guy in solopractice been to Jim's practice.
That's pretty close to themiddle of nowhere.
Yet he's shown extensively andwe fortunately now have him
(13:57):
within our ranks.
That's a good point.
So we've been around a longtime.
We formed the American Board ofOrthopaedic Surgery.
We formed the American Academyof Orthopaedic Surgery.
We'd be in the AOA Of coursenot you or me.
So, and Kyle is currently a138th president.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, F (14:18):
Where do you see the AOA going from
here in the future?
You know, if you think aboutour mission, it's only forward.
I mean, this is not a selfishmission, this is a mission that
benefits society.
And so we're going to havehurdles, we're going to have
challenges.
I mean, just look at what'shappening with healthcare
economics right now.
(14:38):
There's going to be so manychallenges, but our mission is
going to keep us sound, it'sgoing to keep us safe and
fortunately there's enoughpeople in this specialty that
believe in it that if they haveto carry the mission on their
backs and walk uphill in snow,both directions to and from our
headquarters they'll do it.
Both directions, you know, toand from our headquarters
(15:00):
they'll do it.
And so I think we're going tobe successful in the short term,
the near term, the midterm andthe long term.
I have total confidence andfaith in our organization.
We're an institution I mean wefounded in 1887.
Look what we've been through Acouple of world wars, you know a
couple of other, you knowmid-sized wars, all kinds of
(15:22):
politics, you know thedepression, market crashes, you
know COVID.
We've been through everything,and yet here we are, we're still
going.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (15:33):
So what challenges do you see facing
the AAOA?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (15:37):
Well , I mean, the challenges we have
are shared by everybody.
You know some of those.
You know the economicchallenges.
You know the dollars are valueadded Benefits that we provide
to membership and to traineesare always going to be under
threat.
I mean, that's just.
You know.
Take AOA and replace it withOTA or AAOS or OREF or anybody,
(16:03):
and our residency.
You know training programs, ourown hospitals.
That's going to be asubstantial challenge going
forward because you know thereare not a lot of people that
care about what we do, thatcontrol all the dollars, and and
so you know there's, there'sthe list of people ahead of us
(16:23):
is long.
So I think that you know theeconomic challenges are going to
be substantial, but I think wehave a game plan.
You know, through philanthropy,member engagement and the
dedication of our, of ourmembership, to make sure that we
can overcome that.
And then you know the membershipissues.
You know the being pulled in 14different directions to do 18
(16:44):
different things.
I mean we're good at that.
I mean, as orthopaedic surgeons, we're pretty good at
multitasking, but we have tomake sure that we don't we don't
burn our members out.
And then we provide a platformfor what I call free members and
members to remain engaged andto really and then we provide a
platform for what I call freemembers and members to remain
engaged and to really get thatvalue added benefit from being
(17:06):
part of something special likethe American Orthopaedic
Association.
Why do we do it?
I mean, you know, the time is afiscal draw out of us and we
give up family time, we give upwork time, but what, what makes
us tick?
And and fortunately it's thatmission, and and that mission is
so important that people arewilling to make those sacrifices
(17:29):
such a great thing?
Douglas Lundy, MD, F (17:31):
absolutely , I think.
And I've I got to interact somedegree, moderating the
symposium last year on residentunions where Lisa Lufthansa
asked us to involve some of thecarousel presidents in our
symposium, and it was very, veryinteresting talking with those
folks.
(17:51):
So certainly you've got to meetquite your share of the
English-speaking orthopedicpresidents across the globe
during your year while you wereon Carousel.
Any notable experiences orvignettes that you glean from
these spectacular men and womenas they lead our sister
organizations across the globe?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAO (18:13):
You know we'll leave the fun stuff
out for the podcast, if that'sokay.
Okay, just this time.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (18:16):
What happens in South Africa stays in
South Africa.
We'll leave the fun stuff outfor the podcast, if that's okay.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (18:18):
Okay , just this time.
Yeah, what happens in SouthAfrica stays in South Africa.
You know, they're all indifferent healthcare delivery
systems.
Their training programs aresomewhat different.
I mean, I was at the NewZealand organization and they
were having their big banquet atthe end of the meeting and they
were graduating their residents.
I can't remember.
(18:39):
I think there was 10 or 11.
There could have been 15.
I'm not sure For the wholecountry.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (18:45):
Oh my gosh.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAO (18:46):
And so I mean that's.
You know.
I think there's a number ofprograms that have, you know,
between 12 or 10 and 12, 10 and13, just in their program, you
know, but the challenges are thesame.
I mean, you know they still putin one screw at a time.
You know the bones still breakthe same way and the biology of
(19:07):
patients is all the same andleadership's the same.
I mean you know, whether you'refighting the challenges set up
by a provincial government or bya bureaucratic system that
governs your resident education,or dealing with issues of
access to care, I mean, forwhatever reason, they're all the
(19:29):
same.
It's like the NBA versus the NFLversus the NHL.
I mean it's still a contestbetween two teams.
You have the puck, the ball.
It's different, the number ofplayers per side are different.
You know you're still trying toscore, but the game is
different.
And there are things that arethe same Patience, people,
(19:52):
teamwork, patience, again, theway they heal and the problems
they have.
But the circus around it isjust just over, so slightly
different.
But the pathway to success isis common.
You know you have to stayfocused on the mission which a
goal is in.
You know leverage what we know.
(20:14):
You know education, science andgetting to where we need to be,
and then you have to deal withthe weeds of each country, each
organization that has to dealwith each set of weeds which are
slightly different, but we havethe same challenges.
You know, it's somethingbetween us and executing on our
mission to providemusculoskeletal care and to
(20:36):
advocate for it for the benefitof society.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (20:39):
Were you at the Australian meeting in
Brisbane?
Yes, yeah, I was there too.
I was the Australia OrthopaedicAssociation as a guest nation
at the Trauma Association thisyear.
I was there representing themand I did a talk comparing the
US, the Canadian because our OTApresident at the time was
Canadian and the Australiansystem.
(21:00):
And, to your point, access inAustralia, access in Canada,
blows away any access problemswe have in the US.
It was just amazing at theproblems that we have.
Other countries actually havemuch worse, but they also do
some pretty savvy, innovativestuff that we should maybe
(21:22):
consider.
Is there anything that youpicked up along the way that you
thought you know the UShealthcare system should try
that in a microcosm experimentto maybe see if it'll work here.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (21:33):
Yeah , I think those little
end-to-rounds that they use arepossible because the systems are
different.
You know, the players are alittle different and the goals
of the players are different.
I mean you don't have, you know, major health care insurance
carriers in Canada, per se, thathas perhaps a different goal
than the NHS in England, and youknow two tier systems you may
(21:55):
see in other places likeAustralia, new or South Africa
for that matter.
The cost of providing that careis so much different.
I mean, just, you know what wepay in malpractice in this
country, what we pay to executeour billing in this country
compared to, I mean, whathappens in Canada, is just so
different, is just so different.
(22:17):
But those end-of-rounds arepossible because the systems are
a little bit different andthey've learned how to leverage
the holes in the system.
And so think about theend-of-rounds you use in your
place or the ones we use in ourplace.
They're harder to do becausethere's so many other
constraints and there's so manyother people with thumbs in the
healthcare pie, if you will.
(22:38):
Pie is big but there's.
You know what's it called whenyou have like 20 fingers on a
hand.
Besides polydactyly, you know,there's like 40 thumbs meets pie
.
So I think everyone'schallenges are different and
everyone's ways of dealing withthem are different, but I think
we have some advantages here.
We do spend a lot of money onhealthcare and access is a
(22:59):
little bit better, depending onyour sponsorship whether you
have non-government sponsorshipor a certain type of government
sponsorship and what happenswith Medicaid down the road is
going to be a real problem, butI think we're still in a better
place than others we're still ina better place than than others
.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (23:20):
So being president of the AOA, I
mean you and the Academypresident are pretty much atop
the biggest, most prestigiousorganizations in orthopaedic
surgery in the country and havea unique view of the healthcare
delivery system, especiallyduring that year.
Any thoughts, reflections,vignettes that you picked up
over that year that you kind ofcan reflect on, and how
(23:43):
orthopaedic surgery is practicedand delivered across the United
States and North America?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAOA (23:49):
I think from the at the individual
level it's practiced withenthusiasm.
You know, you genuinely stillsee at the early, mid and late
stages of people's career thatthey enjoy what they're doing.
I mean, I don't take colonyanymore, I've aged out, but I
just really dread having to getup at midnight and go in for a 2
(24:12):
am spine case.
It just sucked, it just itsucked.
(24:37):
But but you know, once, once wemade the incision and the
resident operating together, itwas just fun again.
You know the, the, thedisruption in your sleep, you
know, and now two days torecover after missing a night of
sleep versus just one, and thedisruption to your practice.
It all went away and in themoment we were having fun and I
almost, you almost still feellike a kid again.
And I see that regardless ofwhere people practice, you know
you talk to the Canadians, youknow the Americans, even to the
other English speakingorganizations yeah, there's
always exception.
There's always a curmudgeon inthe corner somewhere that they I
(24:57):
should never have done this, Ishould have done something else
with my career, I should havebeen a kosher butcher like my
brother or something like that.
But they still, when they talkabout operating, they still get
the little twinkle and theyenjoy that patient care part.
That's something we kind ofhave really special in
orthopaedics.
I'm not sure it exists in everyspecialty and I don't know
(25:19):
whether it's because we're we'resimple orthopaedic surgeons or
we're gifted orthopaedicsurgeons or something in between
or a combination of both.
But that's something I've seeneverywhere and geographically
and stage and career.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (25:34):
What advice would you give your
residents or your recentgraduates in terms of let's
suppose that they are beingnominated for AOA membership in
the future?
What advice would you give themregarding our organization, how
they should invest their timein it?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (25:53):
This is, and a way to think about
this is left brain, right brain.
You've got art and science onone side I mean art and
literature on one side andscience and math on the other.
So you're a trauma guy and soyou need to go to your trauma
meeting.
You need to roll up yoursleeves, get engaged.
But you're an orthopedicsurgeon and you need to invest
(26:17):
yourself in things that crossover all disciplines, whether
it's the education of ourresidents and you may never be
an educator in the future butguess what?
You got a farm team that you'regoing to hire partners from.
You think you might beinterested in that farm team and
how good the players are comingout of that farm team.
So better believe you'll beit's.
(26:39):
You know, the smart people thatare in non-academic practices
want to make sure that the farmteam is working really well,
because that's your futurepartner coming out of those farm
teams.
You need to cross-talk with adifferent subspecialist.
If you talk to trauma guys allday, you'd probably be pretty
bored.
I know I'm pretty bored talkingto spine guys all day.
Trauma guys are kind ofcolorful.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (26:58):
So if you talk, to trauma guys all day
.
You'd probably be pretty bored.
I know I'm pretty bored talkingto spine guys all day, and so
Trauma guys are kind of colorfulso they keep you entertained.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (27:03):
It's , it's, but you know you hear
the same joke over and overagain.
It gets kind of tiring.
So this is a place where youget to cross disciplines, you
know.
You get to shed your, your,your specialty and remember why
you became a right-take surgeonand then work toward your goals
of education, guiding the futureof musculoskeletal care for
(27:25):
everybody.
And that's the other side ofyour brain, and if all you do is
focus on one side of your brainand forget the other, you're
really missing out.
So I think what I would tell myresidents is find the value
added in something outside ofyour own subspecialty and don't
forget about that and keepconsuming that, Because what
(27:50):
you'll learn from other peoplethat are similar but a little
different than you, and whatyou'll learn in looking at the
bigger picture from a 10,000 or20,000 or 30,000 foot view is
going to be so different thanwhat size drill bit to use for
what size screw, and that'sgoing to make you a better
person and a better physiciandown the road.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAO (28:10):
Speaking of which, I was looking at your
bio, and you published a paperin JBJS on wild horses.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (28:16):
Yeah .
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (28:18):
What was that all about?
I didn't look at it yet.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAO (28:23):
You know, it's that special section
in JBJS of arts and humanitiesand I think what they're trying
to accomplish is to make surethat we're using the other half
of our brain, and so if youfollow that series, there's all
kinds of cool things that arenot nuts and bolts and no
p-values and you know no statsand most of the time not even
anything to do with a specificyou know fracture or injury.
(28:46):
It's just something differentand that person that uses both
sides of their brain can relateto patients better.
And I think when Mark startedthat Mark Slonkowski, I think
that was his goal.
And so you know I'd given atalk at the 1887 dinner on
something unrelated to medicine,on America's wild horses, and
(29:09):
then he wanted me and wildlifephotography is my hobby and he
said listen, I want you to writea short article for the arts
and humanities section.
So I did, and it's just anotherpart of me, but it's just
something different.
You would not expect that fromsomebody that's wearing loops
and doing a spine case.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (29:29):
Or would you Living in Chicago?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (29:31):
Yeah , or would you?
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (29:33):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah, or would you?
And speaking of which I meanRex Hayden.
I guess he'll be the 140thpresident, Is that right?
Because he follows Steve Cates?
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAOA (29:42):
I need to get my calculator out to
count that guy.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (29:45):
Yes, you guys are racking up those
years, but Rex, at the 1887dinner this year, rex talked
about the headhunters.
I believe it was Peru.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAOA (29:53):
I mean, archaeology is his gig, I
mean archaeology is his gig.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (29:57):
I mean, archaeology is crazy.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FA (29:58):
Yeah , but I mean it's a flashy title
, but you know, here's the otherhalf of his brain.
You know, rex Hayden is notjust a nutty professor when it
comes to oncology, he's a nuttyprofessor like Indiana Jones,
you know, right, Looking atrelics in South America, that's
cool, that's cool.
(30:18):
That's cool.
That's really different abouthim, but it shows another facet
of the individual and you knowthe things you do when you're on
digs and relating to you knowlocal laborers and people that
have similar interests.
It's team building, again youknow.
It's understanding yourenvironment, again, where do you
(30:39):
hear that Sound?
Like the operating room alittle bit.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (30:42):
Yeah, absolutely All right, boss,
parting shot here as the pastpresident of our esteemed
organization, any parting shotthoughts in terms of future in
orthopaedic surgery, future inAOA, future in AOA, future in
leadership in our profession.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAO (30:58):
You know, when I became a member of
the organization, I had noaspirations of being its
president.
I mean, if someone said to me,whatever it was, 2004, you know
you're going to be AOA presidentsomeday, I would have laughed
at them so hard, okay, hard,okay.
(31:25):
And so what I would tell youngmembers and members is no matter
how busy things get, then youknow the rvu and the next clinic
visit, and then you knowanother surgery I don't forget
about, about why you're anorthopaedic surgeon, what the
the goal of our profession is,and don't forget to exercise the
other part of that brain,because the value I've gotten I
mean the time served, you know,and everything else I've put in
(31:49):
the organization I've gotten 100times back in terms of you know
what it's done for me quietly,as an individual, and what I've
been able to gather from the AOAand then give back to my
colleagues that I lead mydepartment.
Just little things, littletrinkets of, little pearls of
wisdom, little ways of doingthings, ways of working with
(32:12):
people and dealing withstruggles and developing their
own personal leadership, and sothis gives us back so much more
than we put into it.
But it takes you a little timeto realize that it's like a
little investing in yourself andthe specialty and then in the
people that work around you andthat you hope that will be
(32:33):
taking care of you someday whenyou need their help.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (32:36):
Very well said.
That's excellent.
Closing there.
So it's been my absolutepleasure to have this time
discussing future in orthopaedicsurgery and leadership with Dr.
Alex Ghanayem, who is a spinesurgeon.
He's chair at Loyola and, mostrecently, the 137th president of
the American OrthopaedicAssociation.
(32:57):
Dr.
Ghanayem, thank you, sir, forspending this time with us.
Alexander Ghanayem, MD, FAOA (33:02):
My pleasure.
I'll do it again if you want.
Douglas Lundy, MD, FAOA (33:04):
All right, let's do that and we look
forward to seeing y'all againon other futures in orthopaedic
surgery and this AOA podcastchannel.
Thank you.
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