April 17, 2023 • 58 mins
Content Warning for this episode: alcohol use, addiction, sexual assault, trauma coping mechanisms, and recovery. In this episode, host Kelly Wolfe is joined by Episcopal priest, spiritual director, and recovery coach, Erin Jean Warde to discuss themes from her new book, Sober Spirituality: The Joy of a Mindful Relationship with Alcohol, including:
our shared experiences with addiction/substance abuse, recovery, and family histories of those things
what it means and looks like to have a more mindful relationship with alcohol, our coping mechanisms, and sobriety
the rise in "Mommy-Wine Culture" and the ways women - mothers in particular - are being harmed by it -- in everything from memes to merchandise to social media to new alcoholic products
ways those in the Church can be better allies to those in recovery -- especially in terms of the Eucharist, "theology on tap" type social events, and more.
Guest Bio: The Rev. Erin Jean Warde (she/her) is an Episcopal priest, spiritual director, recovery coach, and writer. She is the author of Sober Spirituality: The Joy of a Mindful Relationship with Alcohol, coming out April 18, 2023. She offers a course, Discerning Sobriety, which helps participants bring spiritual practices and mindfulness into their relationship with alcohol. She is a Certified Daring Way Facilitator, so she incorporates the research of Brene Brown in the many facets of her work. She lives in Austin, TX with her 3 cats, and in her free time you can find her watching comedy, and thrift or vintage shopping. You can find her on Twitter and IG at @erinjeanwarde. You can explore her offerings around recovery coaching, spiritual direction, and more at www.erinjeanwarde.com. She also has a Substack, called Gather the Inklings, which includes free weekly posts and a community, which you can also find on her website.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Just a quick content warning for this episode. Topics discussed will include alcohol, alcohol recovery, substance abuse and addiction recovery, as well as sexual assault, and other trauma coping mechanisms.
(00:14):
Go slowly if you need to, or skip this episode altogether. Make sure you take care of yourselves.
Hello and welcome to the Let It Matter podcast. I'm your host Kelly Wolfe.
Here at Let It Matter, we seek to make space for and honor what matters to us as individuals, as communities and as beloved children of God.
(00:40):
The Bible tells us in 1 Peter 5 to cast our cares on God because God cares for us.
That tells me that God cares about what we care about. In their song of the same title, the group JOHNNYSWIM offers this invitation.
If it matters, let it matter. So that's what we're going to do. I invite you to join me for the next 30 to 45 minutes as we make space for honor, celebrate or lament and as we name what matters.
(01:12):
Okay. Hello, hello and welcome. I'm so thankful you are joining me for this episode.
Today on the Let It Matter podcast, I'm joined by Episcopal priest, spiritual director, recovery coach and author Erin Jean Warde.
As you may have heard from the content warning, she is joining me to discuss themes from her book, which officially releases tomorrow as of the air date of this episode.
(01:36):
So on April 18th, her book is called Sober Spirituality, the Joy of a Mindful Relationship with Alcohol.
I want to encourage you if alcohol use, sobriety, substance abuse and recovery are not part of your story or your life, please still listen to this episode.
We discuss everything from sharing our own stories of alcohol and substance abuse, sobriety and recovery, the harmful effects of mommy wine culture,
(02:01):
and things like how we in the church can be better allies to those in recovery, which applies to all of us.
So I hope you'll stick with us through this episode, even if those things are not applicable to your story or aren't yet.
Before we dive in, if you could please take just a moment, pause this episode and hit subscribe or follow wherever you are listening to this podcast.
(02:24):
And the biggest piece, if you are listening to this in Apple podcasts, if you could pause and go leave a rating and a review for this show,
it helps so much with things like algorithms and even booking guests.
That would be such a huge help and I would appreciate it.
Now, let me introduce Erin Jean for those of you who may not be familiar with her work just yet.
(02:48):
The Reverend Erin Jean Warde, whose pronouns are she her, is an Episcopal priest, spiritual director, recovery coach and writer.
She is the author of Sober Spirituality, the Joy of a Mindful Relationship with Alcohol, which comes out April 18th of 2023.
She offers a course called Discerning Sobriety, which helps participants bring spiritual practices and mindfulness into their relationship with alcohol.
(03:12):
She is a certified Daring Way facilitator, so she incorporates the research of Brene Brown in the many facets of her work.
She lives in Austin, Texas with her three cats, and in her free time you can find her watching comedy and thrift or vintage shopping.
Now, let's get into the episode.
Okay, Erin Jean Warde, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast.
(03:43):
I am so excited to have this conversation with you. I've been looking forward to it for a while.
It is such an honor to be here. I felt so thrilled to dig into this, especially with you,
because not to be trite, but like we need to let it matter.
We need to just make space for that's what the like the beginning part of the show says. We just want to make space for honor and name what matters.
(04:08):
Let's dive in. And you have at this point in the episode, I've given your bio.
I've told people how I came across your work and about your book that as of the air date of this episode, I believe will be coming out the next day.
So this is going to air on the 17th and the official release date of the 18th. Is that right? Yes.
So you will be the day ahead, the day ahead. So we'll be your preview.
(04:32):
And so your book is sober spirituality. I would love if you could give listeners just some background about how you come to this conversation.
So your personal experience with alcohol in terms of messaging you received as you were growing up as well as as an adult.
And then particularly as it relates to like faith and morality and socialness and how alcohol plays plays a role in those things.
(05:00):
Yeah, I mean, I come to this conversation through the human condition. Right.
I come to this conversation through my life, which is why it's kind of interesting.
The book is, you know, it is making an argument. So it is not purely memoir, but it also had to have memoir in it because I don't think I can really do this inside my integrity without it also being something that I'm saying.
(05:28):
I understand the deep challenges of this because I lived and am currently living inside of what I call the gift and challenge of sobriety.
And so I came I came to this through living and through discernment and, you know, growing up, I have a family history in which alcohol has been a challenge.
(05:54):
But but somewhat apart from that, I actually became a fundamentalist Christian.
And in that context, when I was in high school, it was very, very clear that alcohol was just wrong.
Like just alcohol is just evil. Just don't do it.
I like to quote the like mean girls quote about sex when the coach is just like, do not have sex. You'll get pregnant and die. Class dismissed.
(06:22):
Like it's just done. Like we're just it's just wrong. That's the extent of the discussion.
That's it. Right. And and so I had that narrative and also my own kind of like fear of alcohol from from my family. Sure. But then I went through deconstruction before deconstruction was cool.
Sure. And ended up by just pure faith and the Holy Spirit in the Episcopal Church.
(06:48):
Well, then I transitioned into a church that is a drinking church and did not start drinking until I was 21.
So like waited until it was like legal for me to do so. And I was in a church context where I was like even my church friends are drinking.
And really. And it wasn't, you know, in retrospect, as far as I can remember, like heavily problematic drinking.
(07:12):
But it was this introduction into the idea that, OK, I can be a person of faith and also drink.
But there were messages also that are very specific that I really struggle with now of, oh, we're actually whiskey palions.
Oh, boy. And that's that's a really common way that people self identify.
(07:34):
Or one of the running jokes is wherever there are three or four, there's always a fifth.
Ah, is language inappropriate joke.
And so the high, high, heavy association with alcohol in my faith was an interesting message to roll into that.
(07:55):
And it was just interesting as it unfolded because I really became heavily identified with that.
I was a priest who drinks. I was, you know, the the theology on Tapper.
Like I was the person who, as a former fundamentalist, was like, oh, this is cool.
It differentiates me from the harmful theology of my past.
(08:17):
So in many ways, especially personally, I get why it was like important.
I needed to break free from that way of understanding things.
But over time, what I've come to believe is that the problem with those two ways of thinking, the sort of don't do it, it's evil.
Or let's talk all the time about how Jesus drank wine and let's call ourselves whiskey palions.
(08:41):
Neither of them are mindful.
Yeah. So when I talk about the joy of a mindful relationship with alcohol, there's fault in all of those thoughts.
Like we don't need to demonize people who drink. We don't need to especially demonize people who are struggling with their drinking and say, oh, they're sinners, they're evil, they're wrong.
But we also don't need to ignore the fact that this heavy condoning of alcohol can be really, really harmful.
(09:10):
Yeah. But the but the road to even getting to where I believe that, again, just came through my life.
It came through my own escalation of drinking, drinking, being social and something that didn't happen alone at home to trauma and what it means to shift into just like really difficult seasons in our lives where whether we like it or not,
(09:39):
we come home from a long day at work and we need to check out and we need to relax.
And so we crack open a bottle of wine and we're not necessarily, you know, I was not necessarily consciously thinking like, I don't like how I feel.
So I'm going to drink wine. Right. Like we don't always have that conscious level, but it doesn't change the fact that we're in patterns in which we're numbing in order to survive whatever's going on in our lives.
(10:05):
Right. So yeah, that's exactly right.
So yeah, so it was a an escalation that resulted in, you know, the unfolding of my sobriety and I can tell the sort of sobriety part of it as well.
But what were you saying? Please know that's that is sort of what I wanted to also ask is so, you know, established having established your credibility in sort of in sort of many different camps, the family line camp, the fundamentalist camp, the, you know, faith, faith and booze are married camp.
(10:39):
And then escalation in your own story.
What was there a moment? What was the moment that you that something shifted and and you realized that you did need a more mindful relationship with alcohol or that sobriety was the path for you.
Yeah, I would say the moment was like two years.
(11:02):
Yeah, I don't I don't have a moment. I have many, many moments of the gentleness of the Holy Spirit calling me into an awareness of things that had not been made aware to me before.
You know, sort of this question of I don't like some of my drinking experiences like I don't like how I feel when I wake up, but also I don't really qualify in that sort of rock bottom.
(11:32):
My life is out of control. Yeah.
And, you know, didn't get a DUI or not to demonize that but I didn't have that moment of like you have to like get it together girl right now and I appreciate you saying that because because I think there's a tendency for people to think it has to exist in extremes
(11:53):
where either you're a moderate drinker, and there is no problem, or your, your life is off the rails and there is a rock bottom moment and I appreciate you saying that like this was a stretch of time, there was gentleness with the conviction of the Holy
Spirit and that there wasn't necessarily that same rock bottom or intervention or busted or anything like that but still the grace of God saved you from those things I would say first of all and that your story is different but I'll let you continue I just, I want to say thank you for, for
(12:30):
bringing that up because it does dispel sort of a myth of sobriety being only for people who have hit the rock bottom and life is out of control and things like that.
Well, and there was a sort of hovering over rock bottom that's kind of the language I use when I talk about it like a fear that like, am I about to enter into rock bottom or fearing those things like a DUI like fearing.
(13:01):
Is it going to get worse and who am I going to be in 20 years if I keep going down this path but but not reaching it and really thinking like oh no I think I want to change this now.
But but but one big moment that I'll say and this is after I had like tried a couple of times to quit because I tried a couple of times to quit in different ways.
(13:24):
And even after this I kept drinking, which is also important. Yeah, but I was having a moment where I was like I think I'm just going to write out like everything I desire in my life.
Because I wasn't happy, I kind of hit a rock bottom on joy, for sure. Right.
And I was, yes, and I was writing out, like what are the like if I could do like pie in the sky, right, which is so funny because I look back now and it was like, love my body and be healthy inside myself love myself.
(14:02):
Write a book, be in a career that really nourishes me.
And so at the time it felt impossible these felt like big pie in the sky things. And I looked into the list.
And thinking this was very different thinking I'm discerning alcohol over here and I'm also figuring out my joy over here. I looked into the list and in the way that I understand the Holy Spirit speaking to me.
(14:29):
I thought all of this is possible for me on the other side of sobriety.
That's a powerful moment.
And the thing is, there is only one thing on that list that has not come true for me since sobriety, and that is marriage. And in my defense that requires another person so that's not my fault.
(14:51):
Well, and this podcast we don't need to defend ourselves for not being married.
Well, but I just mean like I couldn't accomplish that.
It wasn't something I could like work on inside myself, but every single other thing including this book. Yeah, it's just like, oh, I think there is a possibility of a different life for me.
(15:13):
But even after I have that moment of like, yeah, I think I like really want to be sober.
I kept drinking because it's very hard to quit drinking to actually quit drinking. And one of the big challenges that I faced was this feeling of, I either have to go cold turkey, you know, tomorrow I never drink again, you know, and I have to deal with all the hardship of like my relationships and my friendships.
(15:42):
Yeah, or I have to keep drinking the exact way I'm drinking now. Right. Black and white, I either have to be like drinking in this way that feels super toxic to me, or I have to quit cold turkey.
There didn't feel like there was a middle way for me to just begin working on that. And because of that experience when I set out to launch my own recovery coaching practice, it was really important for me that my work is for changing your relationship with alcohol in any way.
(16:19):
Yeah, that's great. You, you don't have to be seeking sobriety to start working on it. I'm very passionate about the fact that recovery does not have to be crisis care.
It can be this unfolding, it can be this work, it can be checking in, it can be, I just want to make sure, sure, this doesn't get into a place of harm for me. Yeah, it's, it's checking in when the light switch doesn't work rather than when the house is on fire.
(16:51):
Yes. And I want to, do you know what's interesting to me about the way you say that, that you went from sort of this fundamentalist environment into the Episcopal Church, because same thing with your relationship with alcohol, there was this sort of binary sectarian yes or no, black or white thinking into a via media, the middle way, which is what the Episcopal Church is, you know, it describes itself as the middle way sort of between sort of Catholic and Protestant and several other things.
(17:20):
And so that sort of, it seems like a trajectory that your life took, and maybe not necessarily in the exact same, you know, blocks and timeframe, but that's an interesting, that's an interesting thing, just was noticing as you were talking.
I want to be completely transparent and honest here, and I told you this before we started recording, but for listeners, I have a history of addiction myself with primarily painkillers, although, you know, there were times when it was like, I don't care if it's sleeping pills, I don't care if it's benzos, I don't care if it's, you know, whatever.
(17:56):
I've given a content warning at the beginning of this episode, but just here, I had been raped. My sister and our family was estranged.
And so what I did was things were in crisis mode, and I had just left home for the first time I was in college. And I just didn't, I just didn't know. I just didn't know which way was up. I was so, things were so broken and so hard and scary and sad and dark.
(18:27):
And so I just started to use it with pain medication that some of it was given legitimately. I used to suffer from migraines and things like that, but then I started to use it in ways that was either more than as prescribed or more often or when I didn't have the migraine, but wanted to just check out and feel good or feel nothing.
And so I struggled with that for years, and then I did sort of have, my rock bottom moment wasn't necessarily me bottoming out, it was getting busted and then having my parents say, you're going to rehab or you're getting out.
(19:01):
And so I've been to rehab and that was a really wonderful experience. I relapsed a couple of times since then, which is the story of many and most addicts.
I'm not going to, it's not necessarily a prophecy. I'm not saying that if you are an addict and you haven't relapsed, I'm not saying you will.
But you know we learned in the blue book that I spent some time in NA meetings that recidivism and the likelihood of relapse is possible and that doesn't mean then okay you're off the wagon and you have to stay off it.
(19:33):
I like that what you said the idea of, well I have to change the way I drink and I can never have another drink after today, and a lot of the messaging in NA, which has some issues and I'm not advocating for NA necessarily, although if it works for you that's great.
But the messaging is just for today.
(19:54):
And so, you know, you have to break it down in such a small thing. I'm not going to take something today.
Or even, you know, I've had surgeries and stuff since then so I've had to take the medication.
Oh yeah. And then I had to have, you know, but we put plans in place. My mom is the one who holds it and it's counted and I know that there's transparency and accountability, you know, things like that.
(20:17):
So I wanted to share that with people because I want you guys to know that I come to this conversation not as a bystander or an onlooker.
My sister also died of an overdose and so we're very familiar with addiction in our family. Not alcohol though because I also grew up in an environment where one drop of alcohol was a sin and sin was a cover to hell.
(20:39):
And you were outside, you know, you could lose your salvation with every sin and so alcohol though I, you know, I will now occasionally, you know, maybe once or twice a year. I, you know, when I was younger would drink socially or occasionally or, you know, whatever alcohol, even when I was in recovery from pills, it was not, that was never my issue.
(21:01):
And I, the excess and, and, and escalation wasn't ever the case for me with alcohol, which is something I sort of wanted to talk to you about because there's some people that can't be the case where it has to be nothing.
And there's some people who have to be completely sober from alcohol, but they can take their anxiety medicine. That's not a problem. They can take their pain medication or ADHD medicine or whatever.
(21:27):
And so, um, I just, I just wanted to mention that, that I, I too come from a very, very fundamentalist background with messaging about alcohol. That is, um, you know, one drop drunk is what it's called.
And Jesus didn't really make wine. He made grape juice because things were do all the things.
(21:51):
Just in the interest of the time for our conversation, I do want to talk to you about mommy wine culture.
How much time do we have on this?
Well, if I have two topics left, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Well, I just want to respond to what you just said, cause you were just like incredibly vulnerable. And I think that deserves a little bit of a, of, of just an honoring and also just the awareness of the fact that, you know, I come to this with the belief that like my goal, my heart, my soul is that the greatest number of people are able to heal.
(22:35):
And in order for that, in order for that to take place, we have to have many different understandings of what healing looks like.
Which is why, you know, when you're talking about like it wasn't alcohol for me and some people can, you know, never let the wine touch their lips. Right.
I still receive Eucharist sometimes with the wine. If I decide I want to, it is not a stumbling block for me, but how do I honor that it is for someone else? Right.
(23:06):
That's one of the other things I want to, I want to make sure we talk about in this episode is how the church can be an ally, but go ahead.
Yeah. Just like acknowledging that, that, you know, recovery is, is as unique as every single different person. And so showing up to our conversations around this with that level of openness.
(23:29):
I think people have projected a lot on to me that isn't true and isn't mine. Because when you've heard one story of recovery, you've heard one story of recovery. That's right.
It's hard when we have such rigid understandings of it. And sometimes that is very prevalent in the recovery community. I was going to say the reason that felt vulnerable for me is because I wasn't sure how that you would even receive me saying things like for me it wasn't alcohol.
(24:01):
Because I have friends that are really big in AA and really big into, you know, sober living houses and recovery communities. And, and I just get sideways, I get like, girl, you are deceiving yourself. You're on a path, you know, those sort of things.
So there is a rigidity even within the recovery community that, that doesn't leave a lot of room for individuality and recovery stories. You're right.
(24:25):
You know, we have to each be in discernment about our bodies and how this is acting on ourselves. And, you know, my antidepressant might be the only thing that keeps me alive. So, so I need to be able to take that. And also, it might be the thing that challenges someone else's life.
And so I'm not going to walk up to everyone and be like, why aren't you on an antidepressant? Because our bodies are very different. Like part of the belief, part of the belief that we think we were like beautifully and wonderfully created by God and our unique nature is to acknowledge the unique nature of our bodies.
(25:00):
And also there are some commonalities. So, so acknowledging there are some commonalities in recovery that we can talk through compassionately and with open hearts. And also when we start to project, when we start to say, I need you to be just like me, we're actually hindering the other person from healing.
(25:22):
And if we've gone through that healing process, what we know is how vital it is to heal. And so we should be able to honor the deep need for other people to heal such that I can say, this isn't my path. It wasn't my path. But what I know is I deeply needed to heal.
And I'm just so happy that you're on that path for yourself because I know what that will reap in your life.
(25:47):
That's right. And what I needed to heal was my path. I needed the space to have my path and to have my story and to fully, you know, I found that often that my addiction and cravings and those sorts of things, because they were medicating emotional pain.
As I started working in trauma therapy, as I started doing EMDR, as I started doing grief there, you know, over more than a decade, those those feelings, you know, of the need to like numb out what's going on internally.
(26:18):
I was surprised I didn't tell anyone about my sexual assault for seven years. Of course, she did. And and because I had been drinking and I thought that's the worst thing I could have done is be drinking. It's my fault.
And to be clear, if anyone's listening to this, that is not true. It's not true at all. It is a messaging that I received growing up. And so I knew that telling someone I would get in trouble for drinking and that was worse than having support, not having that was worse than not having the support in the time.
(26:52):
So I was what a friend described me as you were just a broken vase trying to hold water, trying to keep your life together and just things are coming out sideways. And that's a really tender description.
But I just I needed to have my own story matter. I needed to have my own path matter. Like I said, I did in a for a little while and it helped. And that was a big part of like when you leave rehab, they want to know, are you doing your 90 meetings in 90 days and things like that.
(27:23):
By the way, it was one of the first times I experienced what I think church was actually supposed to be like when I went to an NA meeting because I was still in my fundamentalist church. I went to an NA meeting and watched people celebrate repentance and watch people celebrate confession and vulnerability and be honest about their struggles and rally around each other and and partake of, you know, coffee cake and what felt like gathering around the table.
(27:51):
And I was like, yeah, this is I think this is supposed to be, you know.
Hey guys, just breaking in here real quick to remind you that the Let It Matter podcast has launched our Patreon community and I would love to have you join me there for just $4 a month.
(28:12):
In the month US, partners get exclusive content like additional episodes, uncut interviews, Bible study and spiritual formation teachings, and monthly matterings, a private partners only zoom call with me that builds community as we dive deeper into recent episode topics.
Over in Patreon, we're doing a series of spiritual formation teachings called Women of Valor, looking closely at the stories of women throughout scripture more closely and how God partners with them.
(28:40):
The most recent episode in the series was about Mary and Martha of Bethany. Here's a sneak peek of that.
In this interaction, Martha makes five bold professions of faith in this short conversation, and I want to break them down individually and look at them closer.
So, the first one.
(29:01):
If you had been here, my brother would not have died.
He believes that Jesus has the power to stay the hand of death and to heal the sick.
You almost get the sense from the language that she's confronting Jesus about his delay, but implicit in that confrontation lies her firm belief in Jesus's power over sickness and death.
(29:25):
It's the reason for the confrontation, because she believes so strongly that he could have stopped it.
The second one is that she says, even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask of him.
Martha also believes that even though her brother has died, there's no such thing as too late for Jesus.
(29:48):
I want you to grasp what we discussed in the episode previously with Mary, the mother of Jesus, that nothing is impossible with God and that Jesus is God and comes from God.
To hear that whole episode, the whole Women of Valor series and get instant access to all the other partner perks I mentioned, head over to patreon.com forward slash let it matter or let it matter.com forward slash podcast to join us.
(30:18):
Now back to the show.
I, I want to, like I said, I want to discuss two sort of specific aspects of our relationships with alcohol. The first one being this sort of mommy wine culture in everything from memes to merchandise.
It seems like there is an endless barrage of messaging to women and to moms in particular about things like wine o'clock, rose all day, those sort of things.
(30:49):
On Twitter a couple weeks ago, someone had tweeted a picture of a new sort of canned alcoholic drink brand called mom water.
And it I'm sure you saw my thoughts about that I did I did. That's why I'm bringing it up. And it's, you know, marketed and targeted specifically as what's called the new mom squad like this is who you need around you.
(31:10):
These different flavors of this quote mom water. Can you just talk a little bit about and we have, I mean, for this we probably have about seven to 10 minutes. Can you talk about the dangers of this sort of mommy wine culture, and what you see as the fruit of it, both negative or positive in women and in the larger culture.
(31:31):
Yeah, I mean I make the joke about how much time do we have but like spin off episode.
There is so much to say about it and and I think you know the first thing I want to start with is the fruit of it, which is not good fruit, which is that for a very long time.
If we were to look at the statistics around demographics and what we used to call alcoholism what we now call alcohol use disorder. It was very clear that statistically demographically men were the largest number of people who were struggling with that I should, I should say
(32:12):
male at birth.
And what has now happened is that the statistics are 5050.
They're right at about 5050 between people assigned male at birth and assigned female at birth, because the culture has now taken on the idea that like, this isn't just for men that women can also drink and they can have branded things toward them pretty fonts and pretty colors
(32:40):
on the cans or the labels and fruity flavors or seltzer or whatever it's I mean those have exploded.
In the last several years. Yes. And what I what I struggle with, and, and I and.
So, women and mothers are facing a lot.
(33:06):
You know a parent at all. I mean this isn't just feminine, right, but like if you know a parent at all. You know that the the pains and challenges of parenting are real, and that they create situations in which these people need to cope and coping is not wrong
(33:27):
coping is human we all have to cope.
But what we've done is we are fast peddling alcohol in as a coping mechanism to vulnerable people to people who desperately need coping, right and so we're again we've created a whole new demographic of people who struggle with alcohol and and it is deeply patriarchal
(33:52):
and it literally turns a profit off of your life. Okay, it, it seeks to, you know, if you're in any level of sort of marginalization.
What numbing yourself and being told, you need to numb yourself what the culture of numbing is going to do to you is it's going to exacerbate your marginalization, because what it's going to do is it's explicitly going to seek to always take you out of your power.
(34:24):
It's going to keep patriarchy as king, right, and it is going to numb us out of any of the social action that could be possible if we were functioning inside of it with the fullness of ourselves.
And I think it's interesting too, because drinks for men, quote unquote, aren't aren't to dads there to men.
(34:52):
Mommy, mom squad mom water this this idea. I think it also there's an underlying level of reinforcing this sort of gender roles that because moms deal with the brunt of the chaos and the struggle and the challenge and the difficulty of being with their kids
either all day as stay at home moms, or you have a full time job and then the brunt of the work comes on to you when you get home with bath time bedtime dinner things like that.
(35:22):
You are, you are needing to cope more than your husband's who, you know, there's not ads being like dads. Do you get home from a full day of work, and you just want a glass of whiskey go right ahead, because that's not culturally like people would write it.
People would be like no, but moms, do you share the I mean do you take on the brunt of the workload in your home, as, especially when it comes to your children, and you're burnt out you're exhausted, and you're needing help.
(35:54):
Instead of having your husband help here have some wine.
It's it feels so you're exactly right when you talk about the patriarchal aspect, it feels so plain.
Like you're, you're showing your ass guys.
Well, and, and I will also speak to, and this is not gendered so so I've had dads come talk to me about this.
(36:20):
Of course, of course, this is I don't want to be in generalizations. Yeah.
No, and I'm, and I'm pivoting to a different topic but you know I've had dads moms other parents come to me and talk about the fact that you know it's that thing where we can't leave like we have to stay with the kid, because we're trying to be good parents
but also, we want to have a fun evening and so guess what happens we're going to drink a couple beers and stay at home. But the flip side of that being, but then I feel so guilty and ashamed because I read a bedtime story to my child and I don't remember that,
(36:57):
where my daughter, you know, turns her nose up and says, Oh, you smell like wine again. And so, again, it's this general challenge of the reality of how hard it is to parent, and I say that as someone who is not a parent.
But then when we're peddling Oh, this is something you can do at home to have fun. While you're watching your kid whether that's mommy wine culture or just the general culture around saying alcohol is how we unwind.
(37:27):
It can then exacerbate shame and exacerbate the feelings that are coming out of that, and, you know, not to like I don't want to pick on the creator of this mommy water.
Yeah, and I want to be much broader than just them, obviously, it is, but I do feel like I can talk about this because it's a story that they share on their Instagram and in their branding.
(37:50):
The story behind, I guess I'm just saying like don't go after this person because they are a beloved child of God.
Their story about why they created this drink and this brand around this drink is that for years, they would have all of their waters in the cooler and the mom would spike hers or put whatever she wanted her alcohol in her like, essentially to sunny bottle.
(38:16):
And one day, they laugh about how one day their kid grabbed the wrong bottle and said, Oh, that's mommy's water. And so then it became a joke in the family that they'd have to put a sign on her bottle that said oh that's mom water.
And the joke was oh do you need a mom water and that was kind of the way that they talked about it. And what as I reflected on that story.
(38:40):
The biggest thing that stuck out to me is every time I coach with someone.
We have the conversation of like what led you here like what made you think that you wanted some support around your relationship with alcohol.
And many of the people that I have worked with, especially parents, if they had had that experience that would be the reason they were seeking out recovery coaching.
(39:06):
Absolutely. My kid grabbed my bottle and drank my alcohol and I'm mortified that that was something that that happened and I want to talk about it.
And yet this person decides, oh no, that's a branding opportunity.
And it's just the insidiousness of it. And it just makes me worried.
(39:29):
I mean it makes me fearful for the fact that that is what the impetus becomes. It's like actually no I bet there's a whole world of moms who want to drink their mom water.
Yeah. Oh man. I just. It's such a.
I don't know. I know we need to move on in the in the conversation. I just I want.
(39:53):
In the same way that I want women to be free from diet culture and beauty culture and white supremacy and homophobia and transphobia and size you know size recommend recommendations and ableism and all these things.
I want women to be free from any messaging that turns them into a product that turns their their like you said their vulnerability into the marketing scheme.
(40:30):
Here's who you know let's you don't like the way you look. Let us fix it and then let us make billions of dollars.
We're going to be a multi billion dollar industry by telling you you're not beautiful.
We're going to be a multi billion dollar industry by telling you you don't have the skills to cope apart from alcohol or that you this is the only kind of help you can get.
(40:54):
And so it's just it is really heartbreaking and I appreciate the way that you know again I come back to the word mindful that that it doesn't mean OK moms should never drink or moms should never have wine or or that if you have a shirt on right now as you're listening that says Rose
I've been saying all day that I'm that I'm hating on you. It's not that at all. It's that I want more for you than to be the target of this sort of you know billion dollar industry sitting around boardrooms saying how can we target women who are burned out exhausted and needing help.
(41:28):
Yeah.
So I want to ask just sort of as we as we head towards wrapping up here in the church. I want to know how the church can be a better ally to those who are considering a more mindful relationship with alcohol.
Like I said most of my life the churches I grew up in were grape juice the communion and and your Chris was grape juice. Many mainline traditions use wine.
(41:59):
But they like they often don't also offer an alternative in the same way that many they do offer gluten free wafers. Yes.
And so it's an interesting topic because like I said I went from that tradition that was you know one drop drunk to being where I was told in my confirmation classes in the Episcopal Church that there used to be a designated person who would have to drink the rest of the leftover
(42:25):
consecrated wine. So before the sacristy existed and that then there was another designated person who was the designated driver of that person so that they could get home that like that was part of your altar guild or part of your you know your lay you commit lay Eucharistic ministry was that somebody had to drink a bunch of wine and basically get to the point where they were drunk to get home.
(42:47):
And I just wonder like you know there's we do things like theology on tap and you know pub theology things like that.
And I just wonder if you can share your thoughts really quick on on these things and how the church as a whole can better love and support those who are rethinking or restructuring their relationship with alcohol.
(43:09):
Yeah, I mean I'm deeply passionate about the church's relationship to this. I also think it's important to note that I come into this passion about changing the way the church exists in relationship to alcohol, because for a very long time I was a priest who promoted an alcohol culture in the
church right so so I know how it works because I was part of it and so I come into this with a very confessional heart.
(43:39):
But I think, actually I'll start with the story.
I had a client who we started working together, she started really working on a relationship with alcohol but she was kind of at that point where we were doing kind of half and half spiritual direction and also recovery coaching as I'm wanting to do since I do both and,
(44:00):
you know, we got to a point and she was like you know I haven't been involved in church in many years, but this is really encouraging me to want to seek out a faith community. And I was like well this week, why don't you just like see who's around you and you know,
specifically she was looking in her denomination I was like see who's around you see what speaks to you and then we can talk about you know how to discern your way forward and week later we get on the call.
(44:30):
And I found a church that kind of ideologically agrees with me which is really important like it's not spouting, you know, it's inclusive or it's like it's got enough of those checkpoints on it. And she said and I looked at the the groups that were possible for me that fit with me
geographically and there were two options theology on tap or wind down with moms. And this was a church. And she was heartbroken and she was like I really was like where the two options like they're like of all the community groups.
(45:07):
Unless you like Sunday school was not alcohol focused but like she was looking for friendship and kind of like trying to build some community right and she was heartbroken. And, you know, we started talking and she was like, you know, I also found a yoga group that meets on Sunday and, you know,
is it horrible to ask a priest like is it okay if I just go to yoga on Sunday and I, and I said, I personally think it's better for you to go to yoga. Like, yeah, and I don't ever want to be the priest who's saying yeah don't go to church go to yoga, but that culture was
(45:43):
harmful for her, and it created a level of distrust and we had spent weeks, supporting this work on her changing her relationship with alcohol and dammit if I'm not going to let a church seen in the way of that.
But what I want is for the church to not be a hindrance to that work. And, you know, certainly the the Eucharist or the communion is part of it I talk a little bit in the book about resources ways to introduce or at least arguments in favor of introducing
(46:17):
non alcoholic wine the way we have gluten free wafers, at least in the Episcopal Church that option has been made available by general convention it was made available many many years ago, many, many years ago, it, and yet it is not common practice and I would like
to encourage us as a church toward that becoming common practice due to what we know is happening regarding the statistics around alcohol and death, and then deep need for it in our church.
(46:47):
And I'll add is that the same thing that is a challenge with the mommy wine culture and so many other facets of this is attaching alcohol to our identity is incredibly harmful.
Our identity.
Identity.
But how would you. What's the type of identity that's alcohol. Sorry, go ahead. So like mommy wine culture so like I'm a mom, so I drink or whiskey pale yen I'm an Episcopalian so I drink right.
(47:19):
I see. Yeah, it is because what we're doing is we're connecting the use of this drug to who you are in your soul.
And we actually believe as Christians the primary identity you hold his beloved child of God. That's right. And we need to not get confused and get it twisted about what our actual identity is because when you end up that your identity is related to this
(47:46):
this compulsion or whatever, very hard to tease out. And so, one of the things that I think would really help the church is to really lose that identity piece that whiskey pale yen, the jokes, you know, we need to be able to have some dry event.
Urban Baptist I've heard, I mean there's there's just those reformed guys that are reformed, it's all about like craft beers and and strong whiskies and beards, you know, that kind of those, it's not just a physical aliens who are guilty of this.
(48:18):
Yeah, no, and that's why you know I don't actually in the book specifically go after Episcopalians, I've worked with Lutheran ministers who are like, you know, we like agree that some of the heaviest drinking in our lives happen in seminary, you know, and so, like, it is not just the Episcopal
Church, but I do think like churches, what I'm noticing is churches that use alcohol in the sacrament tend to be more likely to then possibly have an alcohol culture. And so, so noticing that.
(48:50):
And just saying like if we're going to have alcohol as a part of what we do, we need to make sure that the that it is not an identity marker, because that's really harmful. And we want to make sure that the way that we offer ourselves to the world actually attracts
everyone who might wish to come, because one of the things that that I really struggle with is like, if you think this church is whiskey pale yens I'm not a part of it.
(49:18):
Am I a part of this church because I don't drink.
So don't conflate this church with alcohol because if that's what we're content doing I need to leave.
And the thing is that's not who we are. We actually have a beautiful identity, we have an incredible identity of, of being you know justice seekers of incredible liturgy of some of the most beautiful words I've ever heard regarding God, I, the sacraments
(49:48):
of God. And I think there's so much about our identity that is actually worth sharing.
And I think it's interesting that you mentioned at the beginning this sort of there's the when the flight that goes when in deconstruction and we're seeing a lot of people go from these sort of evangelical or Baptist conservative environments, and they find the
(50:19):
mainline tradition.
And, you know, I found it through Rachel Hull Evans and Barbara Brown Taylor and he ends I found it through authors that had made such a winsome case for such a beautiful tradition.
And then we want to start practicing our freedom in Christ. That's how I said it.
(50:41):
And you don't want to be, I don't want to be bound by these fundamentalist things anymore. Do you know what I'm saying. And so, what I'm calling freedom in Christ is really rebellion against them you know it's still within the binary of the boxes, it's just
Oh I remember how I felt.
You know what I mean. And so, and so there, you know, there would have been a time whenever I saw that pub theology is this we do this every Thursday I've been like, that's bad. I mean that this church does that, and I can talk about theology and I can drink
(51:12):
and I can be a Christian.
And maybe there's a time and a place for having those feelings I want to validate the feelings.
But I also think, first of all, it shouldn't be your only options. There should be lots of other programming, and within that environment that it should be very clear if people who are sober want to come.
(51:35):
This is an environment where non alcoholic drinks are available, and where, if it is an issue for you will just change the venue. We want to consider the most vulnerable and let them be the common denominator rather than all of us who it's not a problem for,
you know, and so I really appreciate what you said there about the the church being an ally. As we finish I have one last question for you if you could just take a moment.
(52:03):
Let's do it as a pastor.
I want to ask you as a as a priest as a rector.
Even if somebody listen to this alcohol isn't their thing.
But numbing and coping, and maybe even destructive habits. Sure.
In some other way, whether you know, maybe the thing is morally neutral, but the way they're using it is destructive. Maybe it's the thing isn't that morally neutral and it's still destructive in their lives and I'm just wondering if, you know, especially those who just use these
(52:40):
methods to cope with daily stress, or even remnants of trauma and grief. What do you consider the invitation of God for a more abundant whole and integrated life what would your pastoral word for somebody in those shoes listening be.
I appreciate you asking that what's interesting is most of the work I do I think is actually just about coping, especially in churches like when I go and speak, because I want it to be for really anyone who walks in the room.
(53:15):
And, and I mean my pastoral word is is just to reiterate the first of all, you are not a failure, because you are coping.
Life is full of, you know, righteous and understandable reasons why we need to cope.
I don't know if you've checked the news recently, but about seven times a day I'm reminded of the fact that we have to cope through trauma through pain through hardship through violence.
(53:45):
And often when we end up in a state of saying, Oh, I don't like how I'm in relationship with whatever it is because things have happened in our lives that were worthy of our coping.
And we were doing the best we could with the resources that were available to us at the time.
(54:09):
And also, we can come into the realization that, and also, these aren't working for me anymore.
This has become a coping mechanism that is actually now no longer feeling like it's helping me heal.
It's no longer feeling like it's leading me into a lack of harm.
It might actually be causing harm, which is why I want to change my relationship with alcohol or other substances or other compulsions.
(54:34):
So starting from a place of saying, like, the reason this is happening to you is fully normal.
And also vitally important that the way that we go about moving forward into that is really self compassionate and reduces shame.
That's why I say you are not a failure.
(54:55):
You're human because shame holds us in cycles of self destruction.
It actually keeps us in coping cycles that don't serve us.
And so even just the first thing is like working on that inner narrative, starting to say, you know, I'm not a failure.
I'm doing the best I can.
And then asking, OK, what are some small things I can bring into my life that might be more positive?
(55:20):
That's great.
You know, I talk a lot about the fact that there was a neuroscientist, and I can't think of her name right now, Jill Bolt Taylor, maybe.
But she she discovered that in the brain, like neurologically, a feeling lasts 90 seconds.
So it takes about 90 seconds for a feeling to like hit you and begin to at least go into a state of kind of being neurologically processed.
(55:48):
And so one of the smallest things you can do is something that I do because I'm still coping.
I don't drink, but I still have other things in my life that I'm trying to figure out.
Right. I tell people set a timer for 90 seconds for one minute and 30 seconds and just try to sit in that feeling.
(56:10):
Just try to let that feeling begin to be processed by your body.
That alone is going to give you a little bit of distance between yourself and reaching for that compulsion or reaching for that numbing.
And every time we widen the distance between a craving and moving forward with whatever we are craving,
(56:32):
we're actually beginning to change the patterns of our brain that have us in the cycles we wish to change.
So be patient with yourself.
Just start with that 90 seconds and just start to widen the gap between the craving and the action.
And you've already started.
And also reach out for help.
(56:55):
You are so deeply not alone.
It could be me. It could be someone else that you trust.
It could be a pastor who maybe can connect you with some resources.
If your pastor is someone you trust, just reach out.
Don't feel alone.
I guarantee you as someone who does this work professionally, you are in good and holy company.
(57:27):
OK, that was my conversation with the Reverend Erin Jean Warde, who is just so lovely, isn't she?
Yeah, and I could talk to her about that forever.
My thanks again to her for joining me today.
You can find Erin Jean on Twitter and Instagram at @erinjeanwarde and that's Ward with an E.
You can explore her offerings around recovery coaching, spiritual direction, and more at ErinJeanWarde.com.
(57:53):
She also has a substack called Gather the Inklings, which includes free weekly posts and a community.
I'll link to all of these in the show notes as well.
Join me next week as we continue to make space for honor and name what matters.
And now, according to our little tradition as we close out,
I offer you this brief benediction that actually comes from the dedication of Erin Jean's book Sober Spirituality.
(58:20):
Let's pray.
For everyone who has chosen to release a life of numbing in the hope of resurrection,
may you awaken to the Spirit and to yourself.
Amen.
Just a quick content warning for this episode. Topics discussed will include alcohol, alcohol recovery, substance abuse and addiction recovery, as well as sexual assault, and other trauma coping mechanisms.
(00:14):
Go slowly if you need to, or skip this episode altogether. Make sure you take care of yourselves.
Hello and welcome to the Let It Matter podcast. I'm your host Kelly Wolfe.
Here at Let It Matter, we seek to make space for and honor what matters to us as individuals, as communities and as beloved children of God.
(00:40):
The Bible tells us in 1 Peter 5 to cast our cares on God because God cares for us.
That tells me that God cares about what we care about. In their song of the same title, the group JOHNNYSWIM offers this invitation.
If it matters, let it matter. So that's what we're going to do. I invite you to join me for the next 30 to 45 minutes as we make space for honor, celebrate or lament and as we name what matters.
(01:12):
Okay. Hello, hello and welcome. I'm so thankful you are joining me for this episode.
Today on the Let It Matter podcast, I'm joined by Episcopal priest, spiritual director, recovery coach and author Erin Jean Warde.
As you may have heard from the content warning, she is joining me to discuss themes from her book, which officially releases tomorrow as of the air date of this episode.
(01:36):
So on April 18th, her book is called Sober Spirituality, the Joy of a Mindful Relationship with Alcohol.
I want to encourage you if alcohol use, sobriety, substance abuse and recovery are not part of your story or your life, please still listen to this episode.
We discuss everything from sharing our own stories of alcohol and substance abuse, sobriety and recovery, the harmful effects of mommy wine culture,
(02:01):
and things like how we in the church can be better allies to those in recovery, which applies to all of us.
So I hope you'll stick with us through this episode, even if those things are not applicable to your story or aren't yet.
Before we dive in, if you could please take just a moment, pause this episode and hit subscribe or follow wherever you are listening to this podcast.
(02:24):
And the biggest piece, if you are listening to this in Apple podcasts, if you could pause and go leave a rating and a review for this show,
it helps so much with things like algorithms and even booking guests.
That would be such a huge help and I would appreciate it.
Now, let me introduce Erin Jean for those of you who may not be familiar with her work just yet.
(02:48):
The Reverend Erin Jean Warde, whose pronouns are she her, is an Episcopal priest, spiritual director, recovery coach and writer.
She is the author of Sober Spirituality, the Joy of a Mindful Relationship with Alcohol, which comes out April 18th of 2023.
She offers a course called Discerning Sobriety, which helps participants bring spiritual practices and mindfulness into their relationship with alcohol.
(03:12):
She is a certified Daring Way facilitator, so she incorporates the research of Brene Brown in the many facets of her work.
She lives in Austin, Texas with her three cats, and in her free time you can find her watching comedy and thrift or vintage shopping.
Now, let's get into the episode.
Okay, Erin Jean Warde, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast.
(03:43):
I am so excited to have this conversation with you. I've been looking forward to it for a while.
It is such an honor to be here. I felt so thrilled to dig into this, especially with you,
because not to be trite, but like we need to let it matter.
We need to just make space for that's what the like the beginning part of the show says. We just want to make space for honor and name what matters.
(04:08):
Let's dive in. And you have at this point in the episode, I've given your bio.
I've told people how I came across your work and about your book that as of the air date of this episode, I believe will be coming out the next day.
So this is going to air on the 17th and the official release date of the 18th. Is that right? Yes.
So you will be the day ahead, the day ahead. So we'll be your preview.
(04:32):
And so your book is sober spirituality. I would love if you could give listeners just some background about how you come to this conversation.
So your personal experience with alcohol in terms of messaging you received as you were growing up as well as as an adult.
And then particularly as it relates to like faith and morality and socialness and how alcohol plays plays a role in those things.
(05:00):
Yeah, I mean, I come to this conversation through the human condition. Right.
I come to this conversation through my life, which is why it's kind of interesting.
The book is, you know, it is making an argument. So it is not purely memoir, but it also had to have memoir in it because I don't think I can really do this inside my integrity without it also being something that I'm saying.
(05:28):
I understand the deep challenges of this because I lived and am currently living inside of what I call the gift and challenge of sobriety.
And so I came I came to this through living and through discernment and, you know, growing up, I have a family history in which alcohol has been a challenge.
(05:54):
But but somewhat apart from that, I actually became a fundamentalist Christian.
And in that context, when I was in high school, it was very, very clear that alcohol was just wrong.
Like just alcohol is just evil. Just don't do it.
I like to quote the like mean girls quote about sex when the coach is just like, do not have sex. You'll get pregnant and die. Class dismissed.
(06:22):
Like it's just done. Like we're just it's just wrong. That's the extent of the discussion.
That's it. Right. And and so I had that narrative and also my own kind of like fear of alcohol from from my family. Sure. But then I went through deconstruction before deconstruction was cool.
Sure. And ended up by just pure faith and the Holy Spirit in the Episcopal Church.
(06:48):
Well, then I transitioned into a church that is a drinking church and did not start drinking until I was 21.
So like waited until it was like legal for me to do so. And I was in a church context where I was like even my church friends are drinking.
And really. And it wasn't, you know, in retrospect, as far as I can remember, like heavily problematic drinking.
(07:12):
But it was this introduction into the idea that, OK, I can be a person of faith and also drink.
But there were messages also that are very specific that I really struggle with now of, oh, we're actually whiskey palions.
Oh, boy. And that's that's a really common way that people self identify.
(07:34):
Or one of the running jokes is wherever there are three or four, there's always a fifth.
Ah, is language inappropriate joke.
And so the high, high, heavy association with alcohol in my faith was an interesting message to roll into that.
(07:55):
And it was just interesting as it unfolded because I really became heavily identified with that.
I was a priest who drinks. I was, you know, the the theology on Tapper.
Like I was the person who, as a former fundamentalist, was like, oh, this is cool.
It differentiates me from the harmful theology of my past.
(08:17):
So in many ways, especially personally, I get why it was like important.
I needed to break free from that way of understanding things.
But over time, what I've come to believe is that the problem with those two ways of thinking, the sort of don't do it, it's evil.
Or let's talk all the time about how Jesus drank wine and let's call ourselves whiskey palions.
(08:41):
Neither of them are mindful.
Yeah. So when I talk about the joy of a mindful relationship with alcohol, there's fault in all of those thoughts.
Like we don't need to demonize people who drink. We don't need to especially demonize people who are struggling with their drinking and say, oh, they're sinners, they're evil, they're wrong.
But we also don't need to ignore the fact that this heavy condoning of alcohol can be really, really harmful.
(09:10):
Yeah. But the but the road to even getting to where I believe that, again, just came through my life.
It came through my own escalation of drinking, drinking, being social and something that didn't happen alone at home to trauma and what it means to shift into just like really difficult seasons in our lives where whether we like it or not,
(09:39):
we come home from a long day at work and we need to check out and we need to relax.
And so we crack open a bottle of wine and we're not necessarily, you know, I was not necessarily consciously thinking like, I don't like how I feel.
So I'm going to drink wine. Right. Like we don't always have that conscious level, but it doesn't change the fact that we're in patterns in which we're numbing in order to survive whatever's going on in our lives.
(10:05):
Right. So yeah, that's exactly right.
So yeah, so it was a an escalation that resulted in, you know, the unfolding of my sobriety and I can tell the sort of sobriety part of it as well.
But what were you saying? Please know that's that is sort of what I wanted to also ask is so, you know, established having established your credibility in sort of in sort of many different camps, the family line camp, the fundamentalist camp, the, you know, faith, faith and booze are married camp.
(10:39):
And then escalation in your own story.
What was there a moment? What was the moment that you that something shifted and and you realized that you did need a more mindful relationship with alcohol or that sobriety was the path for you.
Yeah, I would say the moment was like two years.
(11:02):
Yeah, I don't I don't have a moment. I have many, many moments of the gentleness of the Holy Spirit calling me into an awareness of things that had not been made aware to me before.
You know, sort of this question of I don't like some of my drinking experiences like I don't like how I feel when I wake up, but also I don't really qualify in that sort of rock bottom.
(11:32):
My life is out of control. Yeah.
And, you know, didn't get a DUI or not to demonize that but I didn't have that moment of like you have to like get it together girl right now and I appreciate you saying that because because I think there's a tendency for people to think it has to exist in extremes
(11:53):
where either you're a moderate drinker, and there is no problem, or your, your life is off the rails and there is a rock bottom moment and I appreciate you saying that like this was a stretch of time, there was gentleness with the conviction of the Holy
Spirit and that there wasn't necessarily that same rock bottom or intervention or busted or anything like that but still the grace of God saved you from those things I would say first of all and that your story is different but I'll let you continue I just, I want to say thank you for, for
(12:30):
bringing that up because it does dispel sort of a myth of sobriety being only for people who have hit the rock bottom and life is out of control and things like that.
Well, and there was a sort of hovering over rock bottom that's kind of the language I use when I talk about it like a fear that like, am I about to enter into rock bottom or fearing those things like a DUI like fearing.
(13:01):
Is it going to get worse and who am I going to be in 20 years if I keep going down this path but but not reaching it and really thinking like oh no I think I want to change this now.
But but but one big moment that I'll say and this is after I had like tried a couple of times to quit because I tried a couple of times to quit in different ways.
(13:24):
And even after this I kept drinking, which is also important. Yeah, but I was having a moment where I was like I think I'm just going to write out like everything I desire in my life.
Because I wasn't happy, I kind of hit a rock bottom on joy, for sure. Right.
And I was, yes, and I was writing out, like what are the like if I could do like pie in the sky, right, which is so funny because I look back now and it was like, love my body and be healthy inside myself love myself.
(14:02):
Write a book, be in a career that really nourishes me.
And so at the time it felt impossible these felt like big pie in the sky things. And I looked into the list.
And thinking this was very different thinking I'm discerning alcohol over here and I'm also figuring out my joy over here. I looked into the list and in the way that I understand the Holy Spirit speaking to me.
(14:29):
I thought all of this is possible for me on the other side of sobriety.
That's a powerful moment.
And the thing is, there is only one thing on that list that has not come true for me since sobriety, and that is marriage. And in my defense that requires another person so that's not my fault.
(14:51):
Well, and this podcast we don't need to defend ourselves for not being married.
Well, but I just mean like I couldn't accomplish that.
It wasn't something I could like work on inside myself, but every single other thing including this book. Yeah, it's just like, oh, I think there is a possibility of a different life for me.
(15:13):
But even after I have that moment of like, yeah, I think I like really want to be sober.
I kept drinking because it's very hard to quit drinking to actually quit drinking. And one of the big challenges that I faced was this feeling of, I either have to go cold turkey, you know, tomorrow I never drink again, you know, and I have to deal with all the hardship of like my relationships and my friendships.
(15:42):
Yeah, or I have to keep drinking the exact way I'm drinking now. Right. Black and white, I either have to be like drinking in this way that feels super toxic to me, or I have to quit cold turkey.
There didn't feel like there was a middle way for me to just begin working on that. And because of that experience when I set out to launch my own recovery coaching practice, it was really important for me that my work is for changing your relationship with alcohol in any way.
(16:19):
Yeah, that's great. You, you don't have to be seeking sobriety to start working on it. I'm very passionate about the fact that recovery does not have to be crisis care.
It can be this unfolding, it can be this work, it can be checking in, it can be, I just want to make sure, sure, this doesn't get into a place of harm for me. Yeah, it's, it's checking in when the light switch doesn't work rather than when the house is on fire.
(16:51):
Yes. And I want to, do you know what's interesting to me about the way you say that, that you went from sort of this fundamentalist environment into the Episcopal Church, because same thing with your relationship with alcohol, there was this sort of binary sectarian yes or no, black or white thinking into a via media, the middle way, which is what the Episcopal Church is, you know, it describes itself as the middle way sort of between sort of Catholic and Protestant and several other things.
(17:20):
And so that sort of, it seems like a trajectory that your life took, and maybe not necessarily in the exact same, you know, blocks and timeframe, but that's an interesting, that's an interesting thing, just was noticing as you were talking.
I want to be completely transparent and honest here, and I told you this before we started recording, but for listeners, I have a history of addiction myself with primarily painkillers, although, you know, there were times when it was like, I don't care if it's sleeping pills, I don't care if it's benzos, I don't care if it's, you know, whatever.
(17:56):
I've given a content warning at the beginning of this episode, but just here, I had been raped. My sister and our family was estranged.
And so what I did was things were in crisis mode, and I had just left home for the first time I was in college. And I just didn't, I just didn't know. I just didn't know which way was up. I was so, things were so broken and so hard and scary and sad and dark.
(18:27):
And so I just started to use it with pain medication that some of it was given legitimately. I used to suffer from migraines and things like that, but then I started to use it in ways that was either more than as prescribed or more often or when I didn't have the migraine, but wanted to just check out and feel good or feel nothing.
And so I struggled with that for years, and then I did sort of have, my rock bottom moment wasn't necessarily me bottoming out, it was getting busted and then having my parents say, you're going to rehab or you're getting out.
(19:01):
And so I've been to rehab and that was a really wonderful experience. I relapsed a couple of times since then, which is the story of many and most addicts.
I'm not going to, it's not necessarily a prophecy. I'm not saying that if you are an addict and you haven't relapsed, I'm not saying you will.
But you know we learned in the blue book that I spent some time in NA meetings that recidivism and the likelihood of relapse is possible and that doesn't mean then okay you're off the wagon and you have to stay off it.
(19:33):
I like that what you said the idea of, well I have to change the way I drink and I can never have another drink after today, and a lot of the messaging in NA, which has some issues and I'm not advocating for NA necessarily, although if it works for you that's great.
But the messaging is just for today.
(19:54):
And so, you know, you have to break it down in such a small thing. I'm not going to take something today.
Or even, you know, I've had surgeries and stuff since then so I've had to take the medication.
Oh yeah. And then I had to have, you know, but we put plans in place. My mom is the one who holds it and it's counted and I know that there's transparency and accountability, you know, things like that.
(20:17):
So I wanted to share that with people because I want you guys to know that I come to this conversation not as a bystander or an onlooker.
My sister also died of an overdose and so we're very familiar with addiction in our family. Not alcohol though because I also grew up in an environment where one drop of alcohol was a sin and sin was a cover to hell.
(20:39):
And you were outside, you know, you could lose your salvation with every sin and so alcohol though I, you know, I will now occasionally, you know, maybe once or twice a year. I, you know, when I was younger would drink socially or occasionally or, you know, whatever alcohol, even when I was in recovery from pills, it was not, that was never my issue.
(21:01):
And I, the excess and, and, and escalation wasn't ever the case for me with alcohol, which is something I sort of wanted to talk to you about because there's some people that can't be the case where it has to be nothing.
And there's some people who have to be completely sober from alcohol, but they can take their anxiety medicine. That's not a problem. They can take their pain medication or ADHD medicine or whatever.
(21:27):
And so, um, I just, I just wanted to mention that, that I, I too come from a very, very fundamentalist background with messaging about alcohol. That is, um, you know, one drop drunk is what it's called.
And Jesus didn't really make wine. He made grape juice because things were do all the things.
(21:51):
Just in the interest of the time for our conversation, I do want to talk to you about mommy wine culture.
How much time do we have on this?
Well, if I have two topics left, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Well, I just want to respond to what you just said, cause you were just like incredibly vulnerable. And I think that deserves a little bit of a, of, of just an honoring and also just the awareness of the fact that, you know, I come to this with the belief that like my goal, my heart, my soul is that the greatest number of people are able to heal.
(22:35):
And in order for that, in order for that to take place, we have to have many different understandings of what healing looks like.
Which is why, you know, when you're talking about like it wasn't alcohol for me and some people can, you know, never let the wine touch their lips. Right.
I still receive Eucharist sometimes with the wine. If I decide I want to, it is not a stumbling block for me, but how do I honor that it is for someone else? Right.
(23:06):
That's one of the other things I want to, I want to make sure we talk about in this episode is how the church can be an ally, but go ahead.
Yeah. Just like acknowledging that, that, you know, recovery is, is as unique as every single different person. And so showing up to our conversations around this with that level of openness.
(23:29):
I think people have projected a lot on to me that isn't true and isn't mine. Because when you've heard one story of recovery, you've heard one story of recovery. That's right.
It's hard when we have such rigid understandings of it. And sometimes that is very prevalent in the recovery community. I was going to say the reason that felt vulnerable for me is because I wasn't sure how that you would even receive me saying things like for me it wasn't alcohol.
(24:01):
Because I have friends that are really big in AA and really big into, you know, sober living houses and recovery communities. And, and I just get sideways, I get like, girl, you are deceiving yourself. You're on a path, you know, those sort of things.
So there is a rigidity even within the recovery community that, that doesn't leave a lot of room for individuality and recovery stories. You're right.
(24:25):
You know, we have to each be in discernment about our bodies and how this is acting on ourselves. And, you know, my antidepressant might be the only thing that keeps me alive. So, so I need to be able to take that. And also, it might be the thing that challenges someone else's life.
And so I'm not going to walk up to everyone and be like, why aren't you on an antidepressant? Because our bodies are very different. Like part of the belief, part of the belief that we think we were like beautifully and wonderfully created by God and our unique nature is to acknowledge the unique nature of our bodies.
(25:00):
And also there are some commonalities. So, so acknowledging there are some commonalities in recovery that we can talk through compassionately and with open hearts. And also when we start to project, when we start to say, I need you to be just like me, we're actually hindering the other person from healing.
(25:22):
And if we've gone through that healing process, what we know is how vital it is to heal. And so we should be able to honor the deep need for other people to heal such that I can say, this isn't my path. It wasn't my path. But what I know is I deeply needed to heal.
And I'm just so happy that you're on that path for yourself because I know what that will reap in your life.
(25:47):
That's right. And what I needed to heal was my path. I needed the space to have my path and to have my story and to fully, you know, I found that often that my addiction and cravings and those sorts of things, because they were medicating emotional pain.
As I started working in trauma therapy, as I started doing EMDR, as I started doing grief there, you know, over more than a decade, those those feelings, you know, of the need to like numb out what's going on internally.
(26:18):
I was surprised I didn't tell anyone about my sexual assault for seven years. Of course, she did. And and because I had been drinking and I thought that's the worst thing I could have done is be drinking. It's my fault.
And to be clear, if anyone's listening to this, that is not true. It's not true at all. It is a messaging that I received growing up. And so I knew that telling someone I would get in trouble for drinking and that was worse than having support, not having that was worse than not having the support in the time.
(26:52):
So I was what a friend described me as you were just a broken vase trying to hold water, trying to keep your life together and just things are coming out sideways. And that's a really tender description.
But I just I needed to have my own story matter. I needed to have my own path matter. Like I said, I did in a for a little while and it helped. And that was a big part of like when you leave rehab, they want to know, are you doing your 90 meetings in 90 days and things like that.
(27:23):
By the way, it was one of the first times I experienced what I think church was actually supposed to be like when I went to an NA meeting because I was still in my fundamentalist church. I went to an NA meeting and watched people celebrate repentance and watch people celebrate confession and vulnerability and be honest about their struggles and rally around each other and and partake of, you know, coffee cake and what felt like gathering around the table.
(27:51):
And I was like, yeah, this is I think this is supposed to be, you know.
Hey guys, just breaking in here real quick to remind you that the Let It Matter podcast has launched our Patreon community and I would love to have you join me there for just $4 a month.
(28:12):
In the month US, partners get exclusive content like additional episodes, uncut interviews, Bible study and spiritual formation teachings, and monthly matterings, a private partners only zoom call with me that builds community as we dive deeper into recent episode topics.
Over in Patreon, we're doing a series of spiritual formation teachings called Women of Valor, looking closely at the stories of women throughout scripture more closely and how God partners with them.
(28:40):
The most recent episode in the series was about Mary and Martha of Bethany. Here's a sneak peek of that.
In this interaction, Martha makes five bold professions of faith in this short conversation, and I want to break them down individually and look at them closer.
So, the first one.
(29:01):
If you had been here, my brother would not have died.
He believes that Jesus has the power to stay the hand of death and to heal the sick.
You almost get the sense from the language that she's confronting Jesus about his delay, but implicit in that confrontation lies her firm belief in Jesus's power over sickness and death.
(29:25):
It's the reason for the confrontation, because she believes so strongly that he could have stopped it.
The second one is that she says, even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask of him.
Martha also believes that even though her brother has died, there's no such thing as too late for Jesus.
(29:48):
I want you to grasp what we discussed in the episode previously with Mary, the mother of Jesus, that nothing is impossible with God and that Jesus is God and comes from God.
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(30:18):
Now back to the show.
I, I want to, like I said, I want to discuss two sort of specific aspects of our relationships with alcohol. The first one being this sort of mommy wine culture in everything from memes to merchandise.
It seems like there is an endless barrage of messaging to women and to moms in particular about things like wine o'clock, rose all day, those sort of things.
(30:49):
On Twitter a couple weeks ago, someone had tweeted a picture of a new sort of canned alcoholic drink brand called mom water.
And it I'm sure you saw my thoughts about that I did I did. That's why I'm bringing it up. And it's, you know, marketed and targeted specifically as what's called the new mom squad like this is who you need around you.
(31:10):
These different flavors of this quote mom water. Can you just talk a little bit about and we have, I mean, for this we probably have about seven to 10 minutes. Can you talk about the dangers of this sort of mommy wine culture, and what you see as the fruit of it, both negative or positive in women and in the larger culture.
(31:31):
Yeah, I mean I make the joke about how much time do we have but like spin off episode.
There is so much to say about it and and I think you know the first thing I want to start with is the fruit of it, which is not good fruit, which is that for a very long time.
If we were to look at the statistics around demographics and what we used to call alcoholism what we now call alcohol use disorder. It was very clear that statistically demographically men were the largest number of people who were struggling with that I should, I should say
(32:12):
male at birth.
And what has now happened is that the statistics are 5050.
They're right at about 5050 between people assigned male at birth and assigned female at birth, because the culture has now taken on the idea that like, this isn't just for men that women can also drink and they can have branded things toward them pretty fonts and pretty colors
(32:40):
on the cans or the labels and fruity flavors or seltzer or whatever it's I mean those have exploded.
In the last several years. Yes. And what I what I struggle with, and, and I and.
So, women and mothers are facing a lot.
(33:06):
You know a parent at all. I mean this isn't just feminine, right, but like if you know a parent at all. You know that the the pains and challenges of parenting are real, and that they create situations in which these people need to cope and coping is not wrong
(33:27):
coping is human we all have to cope.
But what we've done is we are fast peddling alcohol in as a coping mechanism to vulnerable people to people who desperately need coping, right and so we're again we've created a whole new demographic of people who struggle with alcohol and and it is deeply patriarchal
(33:52):
and it literally turns a profit off of your life. Okay, it, it seeks to, you know, if you're in any level of sort of marginalization.
What numbing yourself and being told, you need to numb yourself what the culture of numbing is going to do to you is it's going to exacerbate your marginalization, because what it's going to do is it's explicitly going to seek to always take you out of your power.
(34:24):
It's going to keep patriarchy as king, right, and it is going to numb us out of any of the social action that could be possible if we were functioning inside of it with the fullness of ourselves.
And I think it's interesting too, because drinks for men, quote unquote, aren't aren't to dads there to men.
(34:52):
Mommy, mom squad mom water this this idea. I think it also there's an underlying level of reinforcing this sort of gender roles that because moms deal with the brunt of the chaos and the struggle and the challenge and the difficulty of being with their kids
either all day as stay at home moms, or you have a full time job and then the brunt of the work comes on to you when you get home with bath time bedtime dinner things like that.
(35:22):
You are, you are needing to cope more than your husband's who, you know, there's not ads being like dads. Do you get home from a full day of work, and you just want a glass of whiskey go right ahead, because that's not culturally like people would write it.
People would be like no, but moms, do you share the I mean do you take on the brunt of the workload in your home, as, especially when it comes to your children, and you're burnt out you're exhausted, and you're needing help.
(35:54):
Instead of having your husband help here have some wine.
It's it feels so you're exactly right when you talk about the patriarchal aspect, it feels so plain.
Like you're, you're showing your ass guys.
Well, and, and I will also speak to, and this is not gendered so so I've had dads come talk to me about this.
(36:20):
Of course, of course, this is I don't want to be in generalizations. Yeah.
No, and I'm, and I'm pivoting to a different topic but you know I've had dads moms other parents come to me and talk about the fact that you know it's that thing where we can't leave like we have to stay with the kid, because we're trying to be good parents
but also, we want to have a fun evening and so guess what happens we're going to drink a couple beers and stay at home. But the flip side of that being, but then I feel so guilty and ashamed because I read a bedtime story to my child and I don't remember that,
(36:57):
where my daughter, you know, turns her nose up and says, Oh, you smell like wine again. And so, again, it's this general challenge of the reality of how hard it is to parent, and I say that as someone who is not a parent.
But then when we're peddling Oh, this is something you can do at home to have fun. While you're watching your kid whether that's mommy wine culture or just the general culture around saying alcohol is how we unwind.
(37:27):
It can then exacerbate shame and exacerbate the feelings that are coming out of that, and, you know, not to like I don't want to pick on the creator of this mommy water.
Yeah, and I want to be much broader than just them, obviously, it is, but I do feel like I can talk about this because it's a story that they share on their Instagram and in their branding.
(37:50):
The story behind, I guess I'm just saying like don't go after this person because they are a beloved child of God.
Their story about why they created this drink and this brand around this drink is that for years, they would have all of their waters in the cooler and the mom would spike hers or put whatever she wanted her alcohol in her like, essentially to sunny bottle.
(38:16):
And one day, they laugh about how one day their kid grabbed the wrong bottle and said, Oh, that's mommy's water. And so then it became a joke in the family that they'd have to put a sign on her bottle that said oh that's mom water.
And the joke was oh do you need a mom water and that was kind of the way that they talked about it. And what as I reflected on that story.
(38:40):
The biggest thing that stuck out to me is every time I coach with someone.
We have the conversation of like what led you here like what made you think that you wanted some support around your relationship with alcohol.
And many of the people that I have worked with, especially parents, if they had had that experience that would be the reason they were seeking out recovery coaching.
(39:06):
Absolutely. My kid grabbed my bottle and drank my alcohol and I'm mortified that that was something that that happened and I want to talk about it.
And yet this person decides, oh no, that's a branding opportunity.
And it's just the insidiousness of it. And it just makes me worried.
(39:29):
I mean it makes me fearful for the fact that that is what the impetus becomes. It's like actually no I bet there's a whole world of moms who want to drink their mom water.
Yeah. Oh man. I just. It's such a.
I don't know. I know we need to move on in the in the conversation. I just I want.
(39:53):
In the same way that I want women to be free from diet culture and beauty culture and white supremacy and homophobia and transphobia and size you know size recommend recommendations and ableism and all these things.
I want women to be free from any messaging that turns them into a product that turns their their like you said their vulnerability into the marketing scheme.
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Here's who you know let's you don't like the way you look. Let us fix it and then let us make billions of dollars.
We're going to be a multi billion dollar industry by telling you you're not beautiful.
We're going to be a multi billion dollar industry by telling you you don't have the skills to cope apart from alcohol or that you this is the only kind of help you can get.
(40:54):
And so it's just it is really heartbreaking and I appreciate the way that you know again I come back to the word mindful that that it doesn't mean OK moms should never drink or moms should never have wine or or that if you have a shirt on right now as you're listening that says Rose
I've been saying all day that I'm that I'm hating on you. It's not that at all. It's that I want more for you than to be the target of this sort of you know billion dollar industry sitting around boardrooms saying how can we target women who are burned out exhausted and needing help.
(41:28):
Yeah.
So I want to ask just sort of as we as we head towards wrapping up here in the church. I want to know how the church can be a better ally to those who are considering a more mindful relationship with alcohol.
Like I said most of my life the churches I grew up in were grape juice the communion and and your Chris was grape juice. Many mainline traditions use wine.
(41:59):
But they like they often don't also offer an alternative in the same way that many they do offer gluten free wafers. Yes.
And so it's an interesting topic because like I said I went from that tradition that was you know one drop drunk to being where I was told in my confirmation classes in the Episcopal Church that there used to be a designated person who would have to drink the rest of the leftover
(42:25):
consecrated wine. So before the sacristy existed and that then there was another designated person who was the designated driver of that person so that they could get home that like that was part of your altar guild or part of your you know your lay you commit lay Eucharistic ministry was that somebody had to drink a bunch of wine and basically get to the point where they were drunk to get home.
(42:47):
And I just wonder like you know there's we do things like theology on tap and you know pub theology things like that.
And I just wonder if you can share your thoughts really quick on on these things and how the church as a whole can better love and support those who are rethinking or restructuring their relationship with alcohol.
(43:09):
Yeah, I mean I'm deeply passionate about the church's relationship to this. I also think it's important to note that I come into this passion about changing the way the church exists in relationship to alcohol, because for a very long time I was a priest who promoted an alcohol culture in the
church right so so I know how it works because I was part of it and so I come into this with a very confessional heart.
(43:39):
But I think, actually I'll start with the story.
I had a client who we started working together, she started really working on a relationship with alcohol but she was kind of at that point where we were doing kind of half and half spiritual direction and also recovery coaching as I'm wanting to do since I do both and,
(44:00):
you know, we got to a point and she was like you know I haven't been involved in church in many years, but this is really encouraging me to want to seek out a faith community. And I was like well this week, why don't you just like see who's around you and you know,
specifically she was looking in her denomination I was like see who's around you see what speaks to you and then we can talk about you know how to discern your way forward and week later we get on the call.
(44:30):
And I found a church that kind of ideologically agrees with me which is really important like it's not spouting, you know, it's inclusive or it's like it's got enough of those checkpoints on it. And she said and I looked at the the groups that were possible for me that fit with me
geographically and there were two options theology on tap or wind down with moms. And this was a church. And she was heartbroken and she was like I really was like where the two options like they're like of all the community groups.
(45:07):
Unless you like Sunday school was not alcohol focused but like she was looking for friendship and kind of like trying to build some community right and she was heartbroken. And, you know, we started talking and she was like, you know, I also found a yoga group that meets on Sunday and, you know,
is it horrible to ask a priest like is it okay if I just go to yoga on Sunday and I, and I said, I personally think it's better for you to go to yoga. Like, yeah, and I don't ever want to be the priest who's saying yeah don't go to church go to yoga, but that culture was
(45:43):
harmful for her, and it created a level of distrust and we had spent weeks, supporting this work on her changing her relationship with alcohol and dammit if I'm not going to let a church seen in the way of that.
But what I want is for the church to not be a hindrance to that work. And, you know, certainly the the Eucharist or the communion is part of it I talk a little bit in the book about resources ways to introduce or at least arguments in favor of introducing
(46:17):
non alcoholic wine the way we have gluten free wafers, at least in the Episcopal Church that option has been made available by general convention it was made available many many years ago, many, many years ago, it, and yet it is not common practice and I would like
to encourage us as a church toward that becoming common practice due to what we know is happening regarding the statistics around alcohol and death, and then deep need for it in our church.
(46:47):
And I'll add is that the same thing that is a challenge with the mommy wine culture and so many other facets of this is attaching alcohol to our identity is incredibly harmful.
Our identity.
Identity.
But how would you. What's the type of identity that's alcohol. Sorry, go ahead. So like mommy wine culture so like I'm a mom, so I drink or whiskey pale yen I'm an Episcopalian so I drink right.
(47:19):
I see. Yeah, it is because what we're doing is we're connecting the use of this drug to who you are in your soul.
And we actually believe as Christians the primary identity you hold his beloved child of God. That's right. And we need to not get confused and get it twisted about what our actual identity is because when you end up that your identity is related to this
(47:46):
this compulsion or whatever, very hard to tease out. And so, one of the things that I think would really help the church is to really lose that identity piece that whiskey pale yen, the jokes, you know, we need to be able to have some dry event.
Urban Baptist I've heard, I mean there's there's just those reformed guys that are reformed, it's all about like craft beers and and strong whiskies and beards, you know, that kind of those, it's not just a physical aliens who are guilty of this.
(48:18):
Yeah, no, and that's why you know I don't actually in the book specifically go after Episcopalians, I've worked with Lutheran ministers who are like, you know, we like agree that some of the heaviest drinking in our lives happen in seminary, you know, and so, like, it is not just the Episcopal
Church, but I do think like churches, what I'm noticing is churches that use alcohol in the sacrament tend to be more likely to then possibly have an alcohol culture. And so, so noticing that.
(48:50):
And just saying like if we're going to have alcohol as a part of what we do, we need to make sure that the that it is not an identity marker, because that's really harmful. And we want to make sure that the way that we offer ourselves to the world actually attracts
everyone who might wish to come, because one of the things that that I really struggle with is like, if you think this church is whiskey pale yens I'm not a part of it.
(49:18):
Am I a part of this church because I don't drink.
So don't conflate this church with alcohol because if that's what we're content doing I need to leave.
And the thing is that's not who we are. We actually have a beautiful identity, we have an incredible identity of, of being you know justice seekers of incredible liturgy of some of the most beautiful words I've ever heard regarding God, I, the sacraments
(49:48):
of God. And I think there's so much about our identity that is actually worth sharing.
And I think it's interesting that you mentioned at the beginning this sort of there's the when the flight that goes when in deconstruction and we're seeing a lot of people go from these sort of evangelical or Baptist conservative environments, and they find the
(50:19):
mainline tradition.
And, you know, I found it through Rachel Hull Evans and Barbara Brown Taylor and he ends I found it through authors that had made such a winsome case for such a beautiful tradition.
And then we want to start practicing our freedom in Christ. That's how I said it.
(50:41):
And you don't want to be, I don't want to be bound by these fundamentalist things anymore. Do you know what I'm saying. And so, what I'm calling freedom in Christ is really rebellion against them you know it's still within the binary of the boxes, it's just
Oh I remember how I felt.
You know what I mean. And so, and so there, you know, there would have been a time whenever I saw that pub theology is this we do this every Thursday I've been like, that's bad. I mean that this church does that, and I can talk about theology and I can drink
(51:12):
and I can be a Christian.
And maybe there's a time and a place for having those feelings I want to validate the feelings.
But I also think, first of all, it shouldn't be your only options. There should be lots of other programming, and within that environment that it should be very clear if people who are sober want to come.
(51:35):
This is an environment where non alcoholic drinks are available, and where, if it is an issue for you will just change the venue. We want to consider the most vulnerable and let them be the common denominator rather than all of us who it's not a problem for,
you know, and so I really appreciate what you said there about the the church being an ally. As we finish I have one last question for you if you could just take a moment.
(52:03):
Let's do it as a pastor.
I want to ask you as a as a priest as a rector.
Even if somebody listen to this alcohol isn't their thing.
But numbing and coping, and maybe even destructive habits. Sure.
In some other way, whether you know, maybe the thing is morally neutral, but the way they're using it is destructive. Maybe it's the thing isn't that morally neutral and it's still destructive in their lives and I'm just wondering if, you know, especially those who just use these
(52:40):
methods to cope with daily stress, or even remnants of trauma and grief. What do you consider the invitation of God for a more abundant whole and integrated life what would your pastoral word for somebody in those shoes listening be.
I appreciate you asking that what's interesting is most of the work I do I think is actually just about coping, especially in churches like when I go and speak, because I want it to be for really anyone who walks in the room.
(53:15):
And, and I mean my pastoral word is is just to reiterate the first of all, you are not a failure, because you are coping.
Life is full of, you know, righteous and understandable reasons why we need to cope.
I don't know if you've checked the news recently, but about seven times a day I'm reminded of the fact that we have to cope through trauma through pain through hardship through violence.
(53:45):
And often when we end up in a state of saying, Oh, I don't like how I'm in relationship with whatever it is because things have happened in our lives that were worthy of our coping.
And we were doing the best we could with the resources that were available to us at the time.
(54:09):
And also, we can come into the realization that, and also, these aren't working for me anymore.
This has become a coping mechanism that is actually now no longer feeling like it's helping me heal.
It's no longer feeling like it's leading me into a lack of harm.
It might actually be causing harm, which is why I want to change my relationship with alcohol or other substances or other compulsions.
(54:34):
So starting from a place of saying, like, the reason this is happening to you is fully normal.
And also vitally important that the way that we go about moving forward into that is really self compassionate and reduces shame.
That's why I say you are not a failure.
(54:55):
You're human because shame holds us in cycles of self destruction.
It actually keeps us in coping cycles that don't serve us.
And so even just the first thing is like working on that inner narrative, starting to say, you know, I'm not a failure.
I'm doing the best I can.
And then asking, OK, what are some small things I can bring into my life that might be more positive?
(55:20):
That's great.
You know, I talk a lot about the fact that there was a neuroscientist, and I can't think of her name right now, Jill Bolt Taylor, maybe.
But she she discovered that in the brain, like neurologically, a feeling lasts 90 seconds.
So it takes about 90 seconds for a feeling to like hit you and begin to at least go into a state of kind of being neurologically processed.
(55:48):
And so one of the smallest things you can do is something that I do because I'm still coping.
I don't drink, but I still have other things in my life that I'm trying to figure out.
Right. I tell people set a timer for 90 seconds for one minute and 30 seconds and just try to sit in that feeling.
(56:10):
Just try to let that feeling begin to be processed by your body.
That alone is going to give you a little bit of distance between yourself and reaching for that compulsion or reaching for that numbing.
And every time we widen the distance between a craving and moving forward with whatever we are craving,
(56:32):
we're actually beginning to change the patterns of our brain that have us in the cycles we wish to change.
So be patient with yourself.
Just start with that 90 seconds and just start to widen the gap between the craving and the action.
And you've already started.
And also reach out for help.
(56:55):
You are so deeply not alone.
It could be me. It could be someone else that you trust.
It could be a pastor who maybe can connect you with some resources.
If your pastor is someone you trust, just reach out.
Don't feel alone.
I guarantee you as someone who does this work professionally, you are in good and holy company.
(57:27):
OK, that was my conversation with the Reverend Erin Jean Warde, who is just so lovely, isn't she?
Yeah, and I could talk to her about that forever.
My thanks again to her for joining me today.
You can find Erin Jean on Twitter and Instagram at @erinjeanwarde and that's Ward with an E.
You can explore her offerings around recovery coaching, spiritual direction, and more at ErinJeanWarde.com.
(57:53):
She also has a substack called Gather the Inklings, which includes free weekly posts and a community.
I'll link to all of these in the show notes as well.
Join me next week as we continue to make space for honor and name what matters.
And now, according to our little tradition as we close out,
I offer you this brief benediction that actually comes from the dedication of Erin Jean's book Sober Spirituality.
(58:20):
Let's pray.
For everyone who has chosen to release a life of numbing in the hope of resurrection,
may you awaken to the Spirit and to yourself.
Amen.
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