August 21, 2023 • 30 mins
We're ecstatic to bring to the mic, the brilliant Kori Reed, author of Men in the Middle, committed to uncovering the untold narrative around gender equity. Join us as Kori takes us along the intriguing path of her research, where she sought to understand why men are often silent on issues of gender equality. Her findings may surprise you!
In this engaging episode, we investigate the subtle differences between equality and equity, two terms often used interchangeably but with distinct meanings. Kori passionately advocates for equity, and she'll explain why. Her goal is not to threaten men, but rather to invite them to the table, to share in the abundant benefits that gender equity brings. Our conversation goes further as we uncover strategies for men to support gender equity within their workplaces. We'll examine the power of open dialogues and the role of role-playing in fostering an environment of understanding and acceptance.
Resources:
www.korireed.com
Buy the Book: https://rb.gy/9lru9
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melissa Warner (00:07):
Welcome back everyone to the latest episode
of Let Me Interrupt, where wedive into meaningful
conversations on all thingswomen in the workplace.
Today we are talking about areally great topic on gender
equity, and I'm thrilled tointroduce our guest today, cory
Reed, the mastermind andesteemed author of Men in the
Middle conversations to gainmomentum with gender equity's
(00:30):
silent majority.
Kori is a dynamic individualwhose journey through academia
and the corporate world haspaved the way for her to become
an influential advocate forchange.
Holding a degree in journalismand a master's in communication,
cory's expertise extends beyondmere qualifications.
With an impressive backgroundin various Fortune 500 companies
(00:50):
such as Goodyear Tire, quakerOats, pepsico and Kanagra brands
, cory brings to the table awealth of experience in igniting
genuine connections and drivingtransformative discussions.
What truly sets Cory apart isher passion for delving into the
unspoken layers of issues,uncovering their roots and
addressing court concerns.
As a devoted mother to her twodaughters and two sons, she
(01:13):
holds a commitment to genderequity, envisioning a world
where every individual can risetogether.
Through her work, cory Reedstrives to create a reality
where all boats are lifted bythe rising tide of progress,
benefiting not only ourdaughters but also our sons.
So let's get ready to explorethe depths of gender equity and
(01:33):
change.
Cory, you are certainly welcomehere in this space and welcome
to our podcast.
Kori Reed (01:38):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for the work
you're doing.
I mean that the I loveconversations.
That's kind of my space.
So thank you for the work andcongratulations on a great
podcast that you have, and I'mthrilled to talk with you today.
Cindy Mendez (01:49):
We're thrilled to have you, Cory.
So the first thing I think welet there's so much that we need
to cover, and so I want to justjump into what inspired you to
write this book Men in theMiddle, what went into it, what
inspired?
Kori Reed (02:04):
you Sure.
So I just I have a naturalcuriosity, by nature, I'm sure
you two do, because, by the way,I've listened to your podcast
and you do a great job ofinquiring and bringing out
stories.
So, especially right around thetime of me too, I noticed that
women were all gathering tellingstories around the water cooler
, wherever we were tellingstories, and I noticed that a
(02:26):
lot of my male colleagues werenot participating at all.
And I worked with a lot of goodpeople over years.
I've worked in corporationsstarting and manufacturing
plants all the way up tocorporate headquarters, so I've
dealt with a lot of verytalented women and men and it
was very interesting for me.
Now some would say that probablymen haven't been speaking about
gender equality, gender equityfor years, but it certainly
(02:48):
exacerbated that in that moment,and because I worked in
consumer packaged goodscompanies, where we do a lot of
market research on everything,one of my friends challenged me
and she said you know what, cory?
Don't make an assumption, testit, research it, find out what
that is.
And so I actually, on my owndime, hired a market research
professional and I enlisted afriend and we reached out to a
(03:12):
network to see if men would talkto us about this topic Because
I was working with aprofessional week, created a
guide that initially started outand I lay this out in the book
just about pretty easy questions, about asking them, and by the
end it was a great conversation.
These men were saying thingsthat I hadn't heard before and I
was like, wow, this is prettyincredible.
(03:32):
And I'm wrapping that upbecause, much like you said,
conversations are a passion forme and how we raise that.
Melissa Warner (03:39):
That's wonderful .
I'm very curious, though.
I'm kind of like some insightinto the research you know, as
you were putting your booktogether, you know.
Maybe walk us through what thatresearch looked like and what
did it reveal.
Kori Reed (03:50):
Yeah, so absolutely, and thanks for asking.
So, like I said, we puttogether a question guide with
this market researchprofessional and, and then we
reached out to our network.
30 men said yes, we promised todo it on anonymous conditions
Initially, didn't know of anyone.
You guys would respond back tome because here we are talking
about a topic that I've beendoing like.
(04:11):
These were men that were eitherhigh potential managers all the
way up to CEOs or retired CEOsthat ran our network of people
and we promised anonymity and$100 gift card.
And I joke around.
I don't know which was more ofan incentive the gift card or
the willingness to talk about it, but I think, melissa, one of
the most fascinating things forme is of the men that said yes.
(04:32):
I remember calling this one manfor the interview and he said oh
my gosh, I've been waiting 18months to talk about this with
someone and I was fascinatedbecause, stereotypically, having
worked in organizations, wetypically hear the stories about
in meetings, how men talk overwomen, how, you know, men are
talking a lot in these, theseconversations, and I hate to go
(04:53):
on stereotypes, but just for thecontrast, I'm going to share
there that I was kind of blownaway that he said that I thought
, wow, he has opinions aboutsomething and he's not saying
anything about it.
And and that was probably oneof the biggest insights I had is
the oh, these guys want toreally talk about it and so why?
That was one that after theinterview I said to him hey, no,
(05:16):
you have been great during thisinterview, given lots of
insight.
You haven't actually given somegood advice that I'll share a
moment about some things theysaid.
I said I'm curious.
At the beginning of the call yousaid that you are waiting to
talk about.
Why didn't you talk about it?
Any pause?
Any said you know what.
Nobody asked me, which I foundfascinating again, most of Cindy
(05:36):
, because this always andstereotypically, you know,
people have, especially haveworked in number of corporations
if, if men in a room and ameeting or have something to say
, they'll speak up and we'veheard that.
But in this case I was reallyfascinated and that really
spurred me on to even do moresecondary research extensively
in terms of was this just comingout from the interviews or was
(05:57):
this overall?
Cindy Mendez (05:58):
Yeah, I think the first thing that comes to mind,
especially around that time, wasit around the me to movement,
or was it shortly?
How far away.
It was shortly after the rise,so it was kind of right after
the rise of that time so I canmaybe imagine here that there
was some fear, because I know atleast I've had conversations
with men About this it's verymuch like it's not my place,
(06:21):
it's not my fight or it's not.
You know what I mean.
Like Because they're afraid,like being the perpetrator or
Stepping in waters that don'tthey don't belong in is what I
understood.
You have any?
Kori Reed (06:38):
Your spot on.
So I think that piece andactually I write in the book
that I kind of hesitated writingthis.
I went through things likeimposter syndrome, like I'm not
a guy, oh my gosh, what'shappening.
But what I find fascinating isyou're absolutely right, fear,
fear, vulnerability, feelingmisunderstood, ambiguity, all
those things that we think about.
What I thought found to be veryironic in that sense is women
(07:04):
and men were having the samefeelings in many ways about this
issue, but from very differentaspects of the story.
So for women, we were sharingstories of the water cooler of
things, everything frominappropriate behavior to equal
pay, to the expansive aspects ofwhat Equity is and I can talk a
little bit about also whychoose equity versus equality
and we can get into that in amoment.
But what I realized is this isinteresting men are experiencing
(07:30):
same feelings to their just nottalking about Emma from very
different angle.
And even today kind of test theidea after I did the research
and even say that continues mensaying it's not a safe space.
So, yes, sometimes you can saythere's been distance from the
height of me to, but thatdoesn't mean that feeling went
away from men.
As a matter of fact, I have mensay to me often I will never
(07:51):
have lunch alone with a woman,I'll never have a meeting alone
with a woman, and I'm alwaysfascinated by them, like why is
that?
And the risk for them of beingfalsely accused of something.
No, lunch might be different,but I think after work meetings.
I used to travel a lot for myjob, and what I will say to men
is I can't imagine working likethis.
I was often the only female ona team, and so if I couldn't
(08:15):
have a meeting with somebody,regardless of what I was doing,
I wouldn't have information todo my job, and so that's what I
found to be really fascinating.
So, cindy, you're right, thetiming was interesting, but I
think we don't talk about itmuch, but that feeling kind of
perpetuates, and so we justaren't seeing men engage in the
conversation.
And the reason I add the whythat's so important is we know
(08:36):
that that men are seventy fiveto eighty percent of C-suite
positions and so they're in theposition to influence policies
and change, and so if they'renot engaging, I think that just
gets us in this stuck situationthat I want to have
conversations to gain momentumin that space.
Melissa Warner (08:53):
So you touched on something earlier that I want
to revisit for those people whoare listening, who may not know
the difference between equityand equality within the realm of
your book, can you kind oftouch on that and keep
fundamental differences might be.
Yeah, thank you, melissa.
A lot of people use equalityand I'm not.
Kori Reed (09:06):
I'm not opposed to that, I'll say, even when I
asked the initially in theinterview guide I use the word
Equality because that's probablymore common term and so a
quality is if you imagine thethree of us, if we each of us
got the same stepping stool,quality would be we each get a
stepping school, the same height, we get the same thing.
(09:29):
Equity in that sense might be ifCindy's taller than me or
Melissa, you're shorter, advice,all those aspects that we might
need a stool that looks alittle bit different so that we
can all reach the same height.
That's just a very visualexample and so you can imagine,
in the space of equity andequality overall Equity really
(09:49):
focus on the outcomes.
What I want to have happenedwhere equality for me is about
the aspect of giving the samething.
So I want to focus on theoutcomes of how do we get to the
space where men and women haveequitable aspects to jobs, to
promotions, to other pieces thatwe know that aren't happening
today.
Does that help, does that kindof clarify that I include in the
book like a back of the napkin,drawing on that to just show
(10:11):
that, because I think it's acritical piece.
Quite frankly, equality is themore searchable term, if you
will, but I intentionally choseequity because I think it's
important we look at that, thatdialogue, to acknowledge that
differences do exist today.
Melissa Warner (10:26):
Yeah, and you back at the napkin.
Cindy and I've done a lot ofback of the envelope work
together For the last few years,so that's good, really good.
Thank you, cindy.
Cindy Mendez (10:37):
For some time Melissa has been saying you got
to get men on this podcast, andI have been really hesitant
because I do not want to comeoff as in like we're not, like
we are not able to do this onour own without them, right,
like I hope for some more time,like I said, right, so I am
really candle going on formidnight, so maybe it does look
like a little bit of early night.
Oh, do you think that's wherewe get in?
(10:57):
I realized that no, like yousaid, they hold a lot of the
positions that make change, andso how can we kind of shift the
perspective here because to howmen should have an inclusion or
(11:19):
a like?
What does that look like?
Kori Reed (11:22):
You know, cindy, I think this is a great question
because, to be honest with you alot of my friends, I'm a big
advocate for women and men.
I have mentioned I have twowomen two women and two men
children.
They're all in their 20s atthis point in life, so I'm an
advocate for both.
But I hear you.
A lot of my girlfriends, when Iwas writing this, was like Cory
, are you kidding me?
Like are you serious?
And so I said I think you'renot alone.
(11:44):
In that sense I totallyappreciate it.
What I've realized is that andI have written a whole manifesto
that I have on my website Ireally think about gender equity
.
Men and women are different.
We're different by design, youknow, and I think what I say is
alone we can be heroes, buttogether we can be superheroes,
because there's a reason whywe're designed differently.
(12:06):
If you read leadership studies,you know that really there's
not a lot of difference inqualities and by gender in terms
of leadership qualities.
As a matter of fact, there's astudy they came out recently
that said women actually have alittle bit higher in the
leadership quality aspects.
But I think it's reallyimportant to acknowledge that
what I do in the book is like.
In the middle section I reallytalk about these issues that men
(12:28):
face, because there's a fewthings.
Research shows that men aren'tconditioned to socialize like we
are.
Like the three of us can sithere and talk and you've
probably seen it With women.
We'll talk about many, manythings.
Men are conditioned socially tomore side-by-side activity.
So imagine, you know, you hearguys talking about sports or you
know my husband can have hoursof conversations about his
(12:50):
friends, about baseball andother things, and I say, oh, how
salary or how someone's wife?
He's like I don't know.
And it's not that they don'thave that relationship, it's
just a different way ofsocializing.
And so I think the idea is I'ma big believer is it's not a
win-lose situation whichstereotypically men will have,
that mentality of when lose is avery competitive nature, but I
(13:12):
really think equity can be awin-win.
There are advantages for mentoo that we just don't talk
about today, and so that's thewhole.
My point, cindy, is how do weengage men in having these
conversations so they don't seeit as a threat?
Here's what I'll say.
When I talk to the men, theytotally believed in the business
case for diversity.
So you probably have that whereyou both work, there's a
(13:35):
diversity training, there's abusiness case for diversity,
that we know that women anddiversity of all types will help
financial performance as wellas innovation.
The men didn't doubt thatbusiness case at the macro level
, at the micro level, what itmeant for them, that's what was
concerning to them and that'snot the conversations that we're
(13:57):
having.
I'm not even saying we could allsay, well, that's not cool,
because you've had the advantagefor years.
We could say that what I wantto do, those invite men into
that conversation is okay.
I hear you, I see that's athreat for you.
Now how do we talk about that?
Because you both know, I knowthat you, cindy, from training
and you as a nurse, are probablytwo of the most empathetic
people, right, just based on theprofessions that you do and so,
(14:21):
listening with empathy, I thinkthere's an opportunity to
acknowledge that and have adifferent conversation.
And so, cindy, I over it tookme five years to write this book
, so I totally appreciate whereyou're coming from on this
aspect of being a champion forwomen, but realizing at the end
of the day ooh, we really, if wecan engage men in this
(14:43):
conversation in a safe space,then we can have a different
kind of conversation.
So how do we move together,forward together in a way that
promotes an equitable aspect,and so that's kind of where I've
netted out on that.
Melissa Warner (14:56):
So, corey, you touch on that word engagement.
What kind of practical, whatkind of practical approaches
could you offer Cindy myself,our listeners, on how we can
actually engage and start thoseconversations with these men?
Kori Reed (15:10):
Great question.
And the way I design the bookand it's not saying I'm saying
by my book, that's not theintent, but the way I design the
book is each chapter hasquestions after it, because I'm
a big believer that leading withcuriosity is the way to go.
You mentioned that nice introyou gave me, melissa, in the
beginning, that my undergradsand journalism and my masses as
(15:30):
a communication, curiosity comesto me just by nature.
Now, over my lifetime, thebosses told me that I'm very
annoying with my curiosity.
Perhaps they have, but behindevery too much of something is
really your superpower, and sowhat I realize is it's that
curiosity and asking questions.
Now, these kind ofconversations, I would say from
a learning standpoint, cindy,you have to build some trust.
(15:53):
Over time there is an aspect ofhow do we build that trust, but
I would certainly encouragepeople and I put even in the
book encourage people to haveconversations, encourage men and
women to have conversationsover lunch, asking questions.
Or what I'm a real fan of ishaving a mixed employee resource
group men and women togethertalking about equity.
(16:15):
Or if there is a women's groupthat's having a women's day,
invite men in, but invited themto have a specific conversation
in a safe space.
What I heard these men say a lotof times is it's not safe for
us.
Exactly what you said, cindyit's not safe.
What if I say something thatmakes someone upset?
Will they go report me to HR?
Now there's some great authorsout there and I put this in the
(16:39):
book that if men are worriedabout that, they are probably
the least likely to actuallyoffend that.
I mean putting that out there.
That's the whole irony of thiswhole situation is, if they're
worried about it, they're notthe ones that are going to be
doing that behavior, or theymight be open and willing, and
that's actually why I talk aboutmen in the middle.
It's the bell shaped curve.
(17:00):
When I did their comments, whathappened is we had the extreme
examples in the media of eitheregregious behavior or we had
some champions out there vocallyfor women, but the majority of
men in the comments that I foundreally gathered somewhere in
the middle of either the wholeidea of meritocracy, like they
(17:24):
believe that the best handleshould rise to the top,
regardless of gender, race, etcetera, or we had the men that
in some cases they had hadstrong women in their life, like
either their daughters or theirown mother who had done things.
When their people are in themiddle, it's an opportunity to
move, to gain that momentum.
I think really, melissa, toyour question is tapping into
(17:49):
that creating a safe space formen to have these conversations,
which, again, cindy, when I saythat as a woman who have
friends that have been fightingin this space for years, I'm
like oh my gosh.
But what I realized is, at theend of the day, that's what we
want to have happen, becauseit's not a win-lose, it's a
win-win.
And how do we get people toshift their mindset and shift
(18:09):
the narrative in that sense?
Now I'll give you one otherstory that I so I have two women
and two men that are mychildren.
They're all in their 20s now,but I put in the book.
One of my favorite stories is Iwas at the dinner table with
all four of them.
My oldest was probably in highschool and the youngest was
probably in sixth grade, juniorhigh, because they were about
six years apart, and I wastelling them a story about work
(18:31):
and my daughter looked at me andsaid well, mom, what if we
don't want to be a man hatingfeminist like you?
And I was like, oh my gosh.
And so I paused for a minuteand I thought, oh my gosh, it's.
You know, yes, I worked, myhusband stayed at home, she saw
that.
But if she wants a differentlife, so that's fine.
What I don't want my sons tothink, or her to think, that I'm
(18:54):
a man hating feminist.
I don't think that's whatfeminism is.
I think it's about a risingtide loss all boats.
I want to have thatconversation so my sons can go
into the work and have a safeconversation about that sense
and my daughters can.
And one of my favoriteprofessors in the book and I
won't use the word she used, butshe said people are going to
(19:16):
mess up.
She used another colorfullanguage for mess up, but she
said we're human.
And I'm sure, melissa, as anurse, you see people at some of
the most challenging times inlife.
I think, cindy, from a trainingstandpoint, you know that we
all have to learn.
I think conversations arelearned.
Melissa, exactly what you saidthat sometimes we have to teach
(19:39):
people how to have theseconversations that are not
polarizing but they're findingcommon ground.
I'm sorry, I have a lot ofpassion about this.
I keep talking, so I'm sorry.
Cindy Mendez (19:48):
No, this is great.
So did you get any informationaround, kind of calling men out,
like, for example, if there isa behavior that's happening and
we as women kind of just take it, swallow it and say that's just
how men are, or this workplaceis just that's not designed for
(20:10):
me, and keep it to ourselves,which I've done many times, you
know how?
Was there a perspective or wasthere some awareness of that in
any way from those interviews?
Kori Reed (20:23):
Yes, yes.
So thank you for asking.
And I too, cindy, I've hadsomething experience especially,
I started the book withsomething that happened to me
young in my career and as ayoung person I didn't have the
words.
Now that I'm, you know, pastthat, I'm like gosh, I could
have just said this XYZ, butthere's a risk for a man, I
think to your point.
There's been a risk for womenfor a long time to speak up,
right, I think that that's theaspect that I think that I want
(20:45):
to convey Certainly.
I totally believe that what anexciting time that that actually
need to elevate of thoseconversations to have that
information come out.
I think the unintendedconsequence, I would say, is
then men were more quiet in thatsense and that was the instance
of they're not speaking.
Now to your question.
(21:07):
Around that, I think men hadsome really interesting
solutions.
Like when I asked them, I'mlike, oh my gosh, this is
fascinating.
They also shared things thatthey were doing, that were doing
really well.
So here's an example a man gaveme.
He got his 360 degree feedback.
So just for the generalaudience, if you haven't done
that, it's getting feedback fromyour director, your manager, is
(21:28):
to give you kind of a view ofall around you, as a working
professional, what's happening.
So he got the feedback and itwasn't great and he went to his
team members and he actuallyshared that and said, ok, here's
the situation, here's what I'mhearing.
And then he asked them to helphim out.
He said when I am usinglanguage that is offensive,
(21:52):
sexist in nature, can you saythe word banana?
It was a trigger for him andnow it took him a while.
He said it didn't happeninstantly, right away, but what
happened is he would speak andsomeone would say the word
banana to him like a code wordand he either stopped the
(22:13):
meeting and had a conversationor after the meeting he would
ask them to explain whathappened.
And he said, over time the teamhad fun with it and I think
that's the piece of what I lovedabout that is, he didn't know
he was kind of messing up and hewas.
He got that degree in hisfeedback.
He could have ignored that, butit was pretty bold to go back
(22:34):
to his team from his standpointand say, hey, how do we, how do
we actually fix that together?
And then he took it a stepfurther and engage them in how
to help him and I think you know, I think that was a great story
.
Like I'm like, oh my gosh, ifmen aren't speaking up about
gender equity, they're also notsharing some neat things that
they're doing.
The whole last chapter I haveis about statements that are
(22:57):
stories that men share.
That I'm like, wow, whenthey're not sharing, when
they're quiet, they're also notsharing some neat things they're
doing.
Now, I'm not saying any ofthese were rocket science, you
know, like, oh, we're going tochange the world, but I
certainly think by them speakingup.
On another one talked about howhe is a sales person and he
trained his young professionalsto, in sales meetings in
(23:19):
particular, to watch for thisbecause, stereotypically, at a
time where sales meetingsthere's a lot of alcohol
involved, of their thingshappening in a space, he would
train his young professionalswhat to look for for the one in
there and I thought, well,that's great.
Again, I think these are smallsteps toward how do we make
(23:40):
change, how do we gain momentum?
To me, it starts with aconversation, allowing both
parties into that conversation,acknowledging where they're at.
We all need to be seen, feltand heard, to be acknowledged,
and I think, in this sense, ifwe want both parties to have a
conversation.
It's about acknowledging thatthere's some feelings on both
sides.
Cindy Mendez (24:00):
I like that.
That code word is such a goodexample because it removes that
awkward like I have to go intohis office, the buildup it's
just like when it happens youcan sound the alarm, and it
created an open space foreveryone to be able to
communicate.
Kori Reed (24:18):
Absolutely.
And what I like to do, cindy,from there and I love it is
gather more stories, and almostI think people have to practice
these conversations.
So if we could have what Ienvision is even having almost
playing cards, or havingpractice in a meeting, practice
having that conversation, whatwould you do in this situation?
And that's kind of what thelast chapter is about, but I'd
(24:38):
love to engage more peoplebecause the more we get
comfortable with that, thatwasn't comfortable for that guy,
but he acknowledged he neededit and, to his credit, he did it
.
And so how do we elevate moreof those stories?
To exactly your point, cindy,how do we elevate those
conversations?
Melissa Warner (24:53):
Cindy, I think there's some role playing in our
future.
So we always leave kind of thelast segment for our guests to
kind of give some insight intoany like practical gems, any
takeaways that you really wantto hit home with for someone who
might be listening.
Also, maybe someself-reflection on what you
would tell the younger quarry,or even your sons and daughters,
(25:17):
to make them better stewards oftheir professional colleagues
in the workplace.
Kori Reed (25:23):
Yes, well, thank you for that.
And I would say one thing isimposter syndrome is real.
As a writer it's real, and Ithink you mentioned Cindy
earlier about as a champion ofwomen coming into this space.
But looking at it from allangles, social change is big,
you guys.
You know like making big socialsystems changes big and gender
(25:46):
equity has been going on for awhile and, quite frankly, the
numbers look like we've gotyears ahead of us here and I
think it's.
For me, it's picking that.
One thing can we do differently?
I love conversations, and sowhat's that?
One step to really open up andset the tone for more change, I
think is having thatconversation.
(26:06):
That's the lens through whichI'm looking at something.
And so how do we engage someonein a conversation?
Maybe they don't want to havemaking that space comfortable
and making that for both partiesto come involved easier said
than done.
But what I was amazed by,melissa, is, like I said when I
asked they wanted to talk aboutit.
(26:29):
These men really wanted to talk, and that's the piece I would
say to take away, that it's notabout, you know, inviting a
group in that perhaps has beenin power for a while, changing
our narrative, for that way,it's more about okay, how do we
invite them into thisconversation?
And that's the narrative Ithink I would like to really
(26:51):
shift and change by having theseconversations.
I think for my younger self,what I would say is is along the
lines of that imposter syndromeis here I am writing about what
men say, and I got challengedby men.
Men said you're not a man like,why can you write about this?
(27:11):
And what I said is is right,I'm not speaking for men.
Men allowed me to use theirwords, to tell their stories.
That's what I'm doing here toraise that, a different
perspective.
And even for my sons, I don'tspeak for them.
(27:31):
What I want them to do, though,is when they're in a meeting,
and if they see something, cindy, I hope they're the ones saying
banana, or I hope they're theones saying hey, don't do that,
or vice versa.
You know, if they're in asituation, I just want that
conversation to happen, andthat's the point that got me
over in Poster Syndrome, to keepwriting and talking about this,
(27:53):
and so I'd say, if anythingelse, lead with curiosity.
Research shows that curiosityis the antidote to judgment.
If we lead with that, that'llcreate a conversation that I
really think can change theworld.
Cindy Mendez (28:09):
I love that.
Thank you for sharing that withus today.
And I see your book.
If you're just listening andnot watching the video, you have
a stack of your book in theback and I love the cover.
It's perfect.
You know the bell shape onthere with the men right in the
middle, but you know, I justwant to open the floor for you
(28:29):
to tell us where can ourlisteners get your book?
What do you have going on forthose who want to learn more
about this topic on your website?
Kori Reed (28:39):
as well, yeah, thank you.
So the book is available onAmazon.
There's an e-book and thephysical copy book.
I'm hopefully gonna get theaudible book out by the end of
this year, excited about that.
But I also can be reached at myname, KoriReed.
com, and, just if you'relistening and not looking, my
name's a little unusual spellingit's K-O-R-I-R-E-E-D, so it's
(29:04):
KoriReed.
com and I would love to hearfrom anyone.
I love to hear from anyone.
What I'd love to do is hearfrom anyone else in their
experiences, because I said topeople I'm not looking, you
don't have to agree with me, butthat's where we can start the
conversation.
That's what I'm excited aboutand continue to explore how we
have this conversation so we cannormalize men engaging in
(29:25):
gender equity conversations.
Melissa Warner (29:26):
I love that.
So, Kori, we will gladly sharea link to your book on the
podcast when it releases and,for those of you who are
listening, joined again today byKori Reed, the author of Men in
the Middle.
It's been an absolute blasthaving you on the podcast today.
Such valuable insights.
You brought your energy andhave added a really fantastic
(29:48):
layer to the topic of genderequity.
So super grateful for your timeand all that.
You've shared your perspective.
We're delighted to have you,and here's to more enlightening
conversations in the future.
So thanks again.
Kori Reed (30:03):
Thank you for the opportunity.
I so appreciate it.
Melissa Warner (30:05):
All right.
Well, you've heard it herefirsthand Kori Reed, author of
Men in the Middle.
And as for Cindy and I, we'llleave you with Keep Interrupting
.
Welcome back everyone to the latest episode
of Let Me Interrupt, where wedive into meaningful
conversations on all thingswomen in the workplace.
Today we are talking about areally great topic on gender
equity, and I'm thrilled tointroduce our guest today, cory
Reed, the mastermind andesteemed author of Men in the
Middle conversations to gainmomentum with gender equity's
(00:30):
silent majority.
Kori is a dynamic individualwhose journey through academia
and the corporate world haspaved the way for her to become
an influential advocate forchange.
Holding a degree in journalismand a master's in communication,
cory's expertise extends beyondmere qualifications.
With an impressive backgroundin various Fortune 500 companies
(00:50):
such as Goodyear Tire, quakerOats, pepsico and Kanagra brands
, cory brings to the table awealth of experience in igniting
genuine connections and drivingtransformative discussions.
What truly sets Cory apart isher passion for delving into the
unspoken layers of issues,uncovering their roots and
addressing court concerns.
As a devoted mother to her twodaughters and two sons, she
(01:13):
holds a commitment to genderequity, envisioning a world
where every individual can risetogether.
Through her work, cory Reedstrives to create a reality
where all boats are lifted bythe rising tide of progress,
benefiting not only ourdaughters but also our sons.
So let's get ready to explorethe depths of gender equity and
(01:33):
change.
Cory, you are certainly welcomehere in this space and welcome
to our podcast.
Kori Reed (01:38):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for the work
you're doing.
I mean that the I loveconversations.
That's kind of my space.
So thank you for the work andcongratulations on a great
podcast that you have, and I'mthrilled to talk with you today.
Cindy Mendez (01:49):
We're thrilled to have you, Cory.
So the first thing I think welet there's so much that we need
to cover, and so I want to justjump into what inspired you to
write this book Men in theMiddle, what went into it, what
inspired?
Kori Reed (02:04):
you Sure.
So I just I have a naturalcuriosity, by nature, I'm sure
you two do, because, by the way,I've listened to your podcast
and you do a great job ofinquiring and bringing out
stories.
So, especially right around thetime of me too, I noticed that
women were all gathering tellingstories around the water cooler
, wherever we were tellingstories, and I noticed that a
(02:26):
lot of my male colleagues werenot participating at all.
And I worked with a lot of goodpeople over years.
I've worked in corporationsstarting and manufacturing
plants all the way up tocorporate headquarters, so I've
dealt with a lot of verytalented women and men and it
was very interesting for me.
Now some would say that probablymen haven't been speaking about
gender equality, gender equityfor years, but it certainly
(02:48):
exacerbated that in that moment,and because I worked in
consumer packaged goodscompanies, where we do a lot of
market research on everything,one of my friends challenged me
and she said you know what, cory?
Don't make an assumption, testit, research it, find out what
that is.
And so I actually, on my owndime, hired a market research
professional and I enlisted afriend and we reached out to a
(03:12):
network to see if men would talkto us about this topic Because
I was working with aprofessional week, created a
guide that initially started outand I lay this out in the book
just about pretty easy questions, about asking them, and by the
end it was a great conversation.
These men were saying thingsthat I hadn't heard before and I
was like, wow, this is prettyincredible.
(03:32):
And I'm wrapping that upbecause, much like you said,
conversations are a passion forme and how we raise that.
Melissa Warner (03:39):
That's wonderful .
I'm very curious, though.
I'm kind of like some insightinto the research you know, as
you were putting your booktogether, you know.
Maybe walk us through what thatresearch looked like and what
did it reveal.
Kori Reed (03:50):
Yeah, so absolutely, and thanks for asking.
So, like I said, we puttogether a question guide with
this market researchprofessional and, and then we
reached out to our network.
30 men said yes, we promised todo it on anonymous conditions
Initially, didn't know of anyone.
You guys would respond back tome because here we are talking
about a topic that I've beendoing like.
(04:11):
These were men that were eitherhigh potential managers all the
way up to CEOs or retired CEOsthat ran our network of people
and we promised anonymity and$100 gift card.
And I joke around.
I don't know which was more ofan incentive the gift card or
the willingness to talk about it, but I think, melissa, one of
the most fascinating things forme is of the men that said yes.
(04:32):
I remember calling this one manfor the interview and he said oh
my gosh, I've been waiting 18months to talk about this with
someone and I was fascinatedbecause, stereotypically, having
worked in organizations, wetypically hear the stories about
in meetings, how men talk overwomen, how, you know, men are
talking a lot in these, theseconversations, and I hate to go
(04:53):
on stereotypes, but just for thecontrast, I'm going to share
there that I was kind of blownaway that he said that I thought
, wow, he has opinions aboutsomething and he's not saying
anything about it.
And and that was probably oneof the biggest insights I had is
the oh, these guys want toreally talk about it and so why?
That was one that after theinterview I said to him hey, no,
(05:16):
you have been great during thisinterview, given lots of
insight.
You haven't actually given somegood advice that I'll share a
moment about some things theysaid.
I said I'm curious.
At the beginning of the call yousaid that you are waiting to
talk about.
Why didn't you talk about it?
Any pause?
Any said you know what.
Nobody asked me, which I foundfascinating again, most of Cindy
(05:36):
, because this always andstereotypically, you know,
people have, especially haveworked in number of corporations
if, if men in a room and ameeting or have something to say
, they'll speak up and we'veheard that.
But in this case I was reallyfascinated and that really
spurred me on to even do moresecondary research extensively
in terms of was this just comingout from the interviews or was
(05:57):
this overall?
Cindy Mendez (05:58):
Yeah, I think the first thing that comes to mind,
especially around that time, wasit around the me to movement,
or was it shortly?
How far away.
It was shortly after the rise,so it was kind of right after
the rise of that time so I canmaybe imagine here that there
was some fear, because I know atleast I've had conversations
with men About this it's verymuch like it's not my place,
(06:21):
it's not my fight or it's not.
You know what I mean.
Like Because they're afraid,like being the perpetrator or
Stepping in waters that don'tthey don't belong in is what I
understood.
You have any?
Kori Reed (06:38):
Your spot on.
So I think that piece andactually I write in the book
that I kind of hesitated writingthis.
I went through things likeimposter syndrome, like I'm not
a guy, oh my gosh, what'shappening.
But what I find fascinating isyou're absolutely right, fear,
fear, vulnerability, feelingmisunderstood, ambiguity, all
those things that we think about.
What I thought found to be veryironic in that sense is women
(07:04):
and men were having the samefeelings in many ways about this
issue, but from very differentaspects of the story.
So for women, we were sharingstories of the water cooler of
things, everything frominappropriate behavior to equal
pay, to the expansive aspects ofwhat Equity is and I can talk a
little bit about also whychoose equity versus equality
and we can get into that in amoment.
But what I realized is this isinteresting men are experiencing
(07:30):
same feelings to their just nottalking about Emma from very
different angle.
And even today kind of test theidea after I did the research
and even say that continues mensaying it's not a safe space.
So, yes, sometimes you can saythere's been distance from the
height of me to, but thatdoesn't mean that feeling went
away from men.
As a matter of fact, I have mensay to me often I will never
(07:51):
have lunch alone with a woman,I'll never have a meeting alone
with a woman, and I'm alwaysfascinated by them, like why is
that?
And the risk for them of beingfalsely accused of something.
No, lunch might be different,but I think after work meetings.
I used to travel a lot for myjob, and what I will say to men
is I can't imagine working likethis.
I was often the only female ona team, and so if I couldn't
(08:15):
have a meeting with somebody,regardless of what I was doing,
I wouldn't have information todo my job, and so that's what I
found to be really fascinating.
So, cindy, you're right, thetiming was interesting, but I
think we don't talk about itmuch, but that feeling kind of
perpetuates, and so we justaren't seeing men engage in the
conversation.
And the reason I add the whythat's so important is we know
(08:36):
that that men are seventy fiveto eighty percent of C-suite
positions and so they're in theposition to influence policies
and change, and so if they'renot engaging, I think that just
gets us in this stuck situationthat I want to have
conversations to gain momentumin that space.
Melissa Warner (08:53):
So you touched on something earlier that I want
to revisit for those people whoare listening, who may not know
the difference between equityand equality within the realm of
your book, can you kind oftouch on that and keep
fundamental differences might be.
Yeah, thank you, melissa.
A lot of people use equalityand I'm not.
Kori Reed (09:06):
I'm not opposed to that, I'll say, even when I
asked the initially in theinterview guide I use the word
Equality because that's probablymore common term and so a
quality is if you imagine thethree of us, if we each of us
got the same stepping stool,quality would be we each get a
stepping school, the same height, we get the same thing.
(09:29):
Equity in that sense might be ifCindy's taller than me or
Melissa, you're shorter, advice,all those aspects that we might
need a stool that looks alittle bit different so that we
can all reach the same height.
That's just a very visualexample and so you can imagine,
in the space of equity andequality overall Equity really
(09:49):
focus on the outcomes.
What I want to have happenedwhere equality for me is about
the aspect of giving the samething.
So I want to focus on theoutcomes of how do we get to the
space where men and women haveequitable aspects to jobs, to
promotions, to other pieces thatwe know that aren't happening
today.
Does that help, does that kindof clarify that I include in the
book like a back of the napkin,drawing on that to just show
(10:11):
that, because I think it's acritical piece.
Quite frankly, equality is themore searchable term, if you
will, but I intentionally choseequity because I think it's
important we look at that, thatdialogue, to acknowledge that
differences do exist today.
Melissa Warner (10:26):
Yeah, and you back at the napkin.
Cindy and I've done a lot ofback of the envelope work
together For the last few years,so that's good, really good.
Thank you, cindy.
Cindy Mendez (10:37):
For some time Melissa has been saying you got
to get men on this podcast, andI have been really hesitant
because I do not want to comeoff as in like we're not, like
we are not able to do this onour own without them, right,
like I hope for some more time,like I said, right, so I am
really candle going on formidnight, so maybe it does look
like a little bit of early night.
Oh, do you think that's wherewe get in?
(10:57):
I realized that no, like yousaid, they hold a lot of the
positions that make change, andso how can we kind of shift the
perspective here because to howmen should have an inclusion or
(11:19):
a like?
What does that look like?
Kori Reed (11:22):
You know, cindy, I think this is a great question
because, to be honest with you alot of my friends, I'm a big
advocate for women and men.
I have mentioned I have twowomen two women and two men
children.
They're all in their 20s atthis point in life, so I'm an
advocate for both.
But I hear you.
A lot of my girlfriends, when Iwas writing this, was like Cory
, are you kidding me?
Like are you serious?
And so I said I think you'renot alone.
(11:44):
In that sense I totallyappreciate it.
What I've realized is that andI have written a whole manifesto
that I have on my website Ireally think about gender equity
.
Men and women are different.
We're different by design, youknow, and I think what I say is
alone we can be heroes, buttogether we can be superheroes,
because there's a reason whywe're designed differently.
(12:06):
If you read leadership studies,you know that really there's
not a lot of difference inqualities and by gender in terms
of leadership qualities.
As a matter of fact, there's astudy they came out recently
that said women actually have alittle bit higher in the
leadership quality aspects.
But I think it's reallyimportant to acknowledge that
what I do in the book is like.
In the middle section I reallytalk about these issues that men
(12:28):
face, because there's a fewthings.
Research shows that men aren'tconditioned to socialize like we
are.
Like the three of us can sithere and talk and you've
probably seen it With women.
We'll talk about many, manythings.
Men are conditioned socially tomore side-by-side activity.
So imagine, you know, you hearguys talking about sports or you
know my husband can have hoursof conversations about his
(12:50):
friends, about baseball andother things, and I say, oh, how
salary or how someone's wife?
He's like I don't know.
And it's not that they don'thave that relationship, it's
just a different way ofsocializing.
And so I think the idea is I'ma big believer is it's not a
win-lose situation whichstereotypically men will have,
that mentality of when lose is avery competitive nature, but I
(13:12):
really think equity can be awin-win.
There are advantages for mentoo that we just don't talk
about today, and so that's thewhole.
My point, cindy, is how do weengage men in having these
conversations so they don't seeit as a threat?
Here's what I'll say.
When I talk to the men, theytotally believed in the business
case for diversity.
So you probably have that whereyou both work, there's a
(13:35):
diversity training, there's abusiness case for diversity,
that we know that women anddiversity of all types will help
financial performance as wellas innovation.
The men didn't doubt thatbusiness case at the macro level
, at the micro level, what itmeant for them, that's what was
concerning to them and that'snot the conversations that we're
(13:57):
having.
I'm not even saying we could allsay, well, that's not cool,
because you've had the advantagefor years.
We could say that what I wantto do, those invite men into
that conversation is okay.
I hear you, I see that's athreat for you.
Now how do we talk about that?
Because you both know, I knowthat you, cindy, from training
and you as a nurse, are probablytwo of the most empathetic
people, right, just based on theprofessions that you do and so,
(14:21):
listening with empathy, I thinkthere's an opportunity to
acknowledge that and have adifferent conversation.
And so, cindy, I over it tookme five years to write this book
, so I totally appreciate whereyou're coming from on this
aspect of being a champion forwomen, but realizing at the end
of the day ooh, we really, if wecan engage men in this
(14:43):
conversation in a safe space,then we can have a different
kind of conversation.
So how do we move together,forward together in a way that
promotes an equitable aspect,and so that's kind of where I've
netted out on that.
Melissa Warner (14:56):
So, corey, you touch on that word engagement.
What kind of practical, whatkind of practical approaches
could you offer Cindy myself,our listeners, on how we can
actually engage and start thoseconversations with these men?
Kori Reed (15:10):
Great question.
And the way I design the bookand it's not saying I'm saying
by my book, that's not theintent, but the way I design the
book is each chapter hasquestions after it, because I'm
a big believer that leading withcuriosity is the way to go.
You mentioned that nice introyou gave me, melissa, in the
beginning, that my undergradsand journalism and my masses as
(15:30):
a communication, curiosity comesto me just by nature.
Now, over my lifetime, thebosses told me that I'm very
annoying with my curiosity.
Perhaps they have, but behindevery too much of something is
really your superpower, and sowhat I realize is it's that
curiosity and asking questions.
Now, these kind ofconversations, I would say from
a learning standpoint, cindy,you have to build some trust.
(15:53):
Over time there is an aspect ofhow do we build that trust, but
I would certainly encouragepeople and I put even in the
book encourage people to haveconversations, encourage men and
women to have conversationsover lunch, asking questions.
Or what I'm a real fan of ishaving a mixed employee resource
group men and women togethertalking about equity.
(16:15):
Or if there is a women's groupthat's having a women's day,
invite men in, but invited themto have a specific conversation
in a safe space.
What I heard these men say a lotof times is it's not safe for
us.
Exactly what you said, cindyit's not safe.
What if I say something thatmakes someone upset?
Will they go report me to HR?
Now there's some great authorsout there and I put this in the
(16:39):
book that if men are worriedabout that, they are probably
the least likely to actuallyoffend that.
I mean putting that out there.
That's the whole irony of thiswhole situation is, if they're
worried about it, they're notthe ones that are going to be
doing that behavior, or theymight be open and willing, and
that's actually why I talk aboutmen in the middle.
It's the bell shaped curve.
(17:00):
When I did their comments, whathappened is we had the extreme
examples in the media of eitheregregious behavior or we had
some champions out there vocallyfor women, but the majority of
men in the comments that I foundreally gathered somewhere in
the middle of either the wholeidea of meritocracy, like they
(17:24):
believe that the best handleshould rise to the top,
regardless of gender, race, etcetera, or we had the men that
in some cases they had hadstrong women in their life, like
either their daughters or theirown mother who had done things.
When their people are in themiddle, it's an opportunity to
move, to gain that momentum.
I think really, melissa, toyour question is tapping into
(17:49):
that creating a safe space formen to have these conversations,
which, again, cindy, when I saythat as a woman who have
friends that have been fightingin this space for years, I'm
like oh my gosh.
But what I realized is, at theend of the day, that's what we
want to have happen, becauseit's not a win-lose, it's a
win-win.
And how do we get people toshift their mindset and shift
(18:09):
the narrative in that sense?
Now I'll give you one otherstory that I so I have two women
and two men that are mychildren.
They're all in their 20s now,but I put in the book.
One of my favorite stories is Iwas at the dinner table with
all four of them.
My oldest was probably in highschool and the youngest was
probably in sixth grade, juniorhigh, because they were about
six years apart, and I wastelling them a story about work
(18:31):
and my daughter looked at me andsaid well, mom, what if we
don't want to be a man hatingfeminist like you?
And I was like, oh my gosh.
And so I paused for a minuteand I thought, oh my gosh, it's.
You know, yes, I worked, myhusband stayed at home, she saw
that.
But if she wants a differentlife, so that's fine.
What I don't want my sons tothink, or her to think, that I'm
(18:54):
a man hating feminist.
I don't think that's whatfeminism is.
I think it's about a risingtide loss all boats.
I want to have thatconversation so my sons can go
into the work and have a safeconversation about that sense
and my daughters can.
And one of my favoriteprofessors in the book and I
won't use the word she used, butshe said people are going to
(19:16):
mess up.
She used another colorfullanguage for mess up, but she
said we're human.
And I'm sure, melissa, as anurse, you see people at some of
the most challenging times inlife.
I think, cindy, from a trainingstandpoint, you know that we
all have to learn.
I think conversations arelearned.
Melissa, exactly what you saidthat sometimes we have to teach
(19:39):
people how to have theseconversations that are not
polarizing but they're findingcommon ground.
I'm sorry, I have a lot ofpassion about this.
I keep talking, so I'm sorry.
Cindy Mendez (19:48):
No, this is great.
So did you get any informationaround, kind of calling men out,
like, for example, if there isa behavior that's happening and
we as women kind of just take it, swallow it and say that's just
how men are, or this workplaceis just that's not designed for
(20:10):
me, and keep it to ourselves,which I've done many times, you
know how?
Was there a perspective or wasthere some awareness of that in
any way from those interviews?
Kori Reed (20:23):
Yes, yes.
So thank you for asking.
And I too, cindy, I've hadsomething experience especially,
I started the book withsomething that happened to me
young in my career and as ayoung person I didn't have the
words.
Now that I'm, you know, pastthat, I'm like gosh, I could
have just said this XYZ, butthere's a risk for a man, I
think to your point.
There's been a risk for womenfor a long time to speak up,
right, I think that that's theaspect that I think that I want
(20:45):
to convey Certainly.
I totally believe that what anexciting time that that actually
need to elevate of thoseconversations to have that
information come out.
I think the unintendedconsequence, I would say, is
then men were more quiet in thatsense and that was the instance
of they're not speaking.
Now to your question.
(21:07):
Around that, I think men hadsome really interesting
solutions.
Like when I asked them, I'mlike, oh my gosh, this is
fascinating.
They also shared things thatthey were doing, that were doing
really well.
So here's an example a man gaveme.
He got his 360 degree feedback.
So just for the generalaudience, if you haven't done
that, it's getting feedback fromyour director, your manager, is
(21:28):
to give you kind of a view ofall around you, as a working
professional, what's happening.
So he got the feedback and itwasn't great and he went to his
team members and he actuallyshared that and said, ok, here's
the situation, here's what I'mhearing.
And then he asked them to helphim out.
He said when I am usinglanguage that is offensive,
(21:52):
sexist in nature, can you saythe word banana?
It was a trigger for him andnow it took him a while.
He said it didn't happeninstantly, right away, but what
happened is he would speak andsomeone would say the word
banana to him like a code wordand he either stopped the
(22:13):
meeting and had a conversationor after the meeting he would
ask them to explain whathappened.
And he said, over time the teamhad fun with it and I think
that's the piece of what I lovedabout that is, he didn't know
he was kind of messing up and hewas.
He got that degree in hisfeedback.
He could have ignored that, butit was pretty bold to go back
(22:34):
to his team from his standpointand say, hey, how do we, how do
we actually fix that together?
And then he took it a stepfurther and engage them in how
to help him and I think you know, I think that was a great story
.
Like I'm like, oh my gosh, ifmen aren't speaking up about
gender equity, they're also notsharing some neat things that
they're doing.
The whole last chapter I haveis about statements that are
(22:57):
stories that men share.
That I'm like, wow, whenthey're not sharing, when
they're quiet, they're also notsharing some neat things they're
doing.
Now, I'm not saying any ofthese were rocket science, you
know, like, oh, we're going tochange the world, but I
certainly think by them speakingup.
On another one talked about howhe is a sales person and he
trained his young professionalsto, in sales meetings in
(23:19):
particular, to watch for thisbecause, stereotypically, at a
time where sales meetingsthere's a lot of alcohol
involved, of their thingshappening in a space, he would
train his young professionalswhat to look for for the one in
there and I thought, well,that's great.
Again, I think these are smallsteps toward how do we make
(23:40):
change, how do we gain momentum?
To me, it starts with aconversation, allowing both
parties into that conversation,acknowledging where they're at.
We all need to be seen, feltand heard, to be acknowledged,
and I think, in this sense, ifwe want both parties to have a
conversation.
It's about acknowledging thatthere's some feelings on both
sides.
Cindy Mendez (24:00):
I like that.
That code word is such a goodexample because it removes that
awkward like I have to go intohis office, the buildup it's
just like when it happens youcan sound the alarm, and it
created an open space foreveryone to be able to
communicate.
Kori Reed (24:18):
Absolutely.
And what I like to do, cindy,from there and I love it is
gather more stories, and almostI think people have to practice
these conversations.
So if we could have what Ienvision is even having almost
playing cards, or havingpractice in a meeting, practice
having that conversation, whatwould you do in this situation?
And that's kind of what thelast chapter is about, but I'd
(24:38):
love to engage more peoplebecause the more we get
comfortable with that, thatwasn't comfortable for that guy,
but he acknowledged he neededit and, to his credit, he did it
.
And so how do we elevate moreof those stories?
To exactly your point, cindy,how do we elevate those
conversations?
Melissa Warner (24:53):
Cindy, I think there's some role playing in our
future.
So we always leave kind of thelast segment for our guests to
kind of give some insight intoany like practical gems, any
takeaways that you really wantto hit home with for someone who
might be listening.
Also, maybe someself-reflection on what you
would tell the younger quarry,or even your sons and daughters,
(25:17):
to make them better stewards oftheir professional colleagues
in the workplace.
Kori Reed (25:23):
Yes, well, thank you for that.
And I would say one thing isimposter syndrome is real.
As a writer it's real, and Ithink you mentioned Cindy
earlier about as a champion ofwomen coming into this space.
But looking at it from allangles, social change is big,
you guys.
You know like making big socialsystems changes big and gender
(25:46):
equity has been going on for awhile and, quite frankly, the
numbers look like we've gotyears ahead of us here and I
think it's.
For me, it's picking that.
One thing can we do differently?
I love conversations, and sowhat's that?
One step to really open up andset the tone for more change, I
think is having thatconversation.
(26:06):
That's the lens through whichI'm looking at something.
And so how do we engage someonein a conversation?
Maybe they don't want to havemaking that space comfortable
and making that for both partiesto come involved easier said
than done.
But what I was amazed by,melissa, is, like I said when I
asked they wanted to talk aboutit.
(26:29):
These men really wanted to talk, and that's the piece I would
say to take away, that it's notabout, you know, inviting a
group in that perhaps has beenin power for a while, changing
our narrative, for that way,it's more about okay, how do we
invite them into thisconversation?
And that's the narrative Ithink I would like to really
(26:51):
shift and change by having theseconversations.
I think for my younger self,what I would say is is along the
lines of that imposter syndromeis here I am writing about what
men say, and I got challengedby men.
Men said you're not a man like,why can you write about this?
(27:11):
And what I said is is right,I'm not speaking for men.
Men allowed me to use theirwords, to tell their stories.
That's what I'm doing here toraise that, a different
perspective.
And even for my sons, I don'tspeak for them.
(27:31):
What I want them to do, though,is when they're in a meeting,
and if they see something, cindy, I hope they're the ones saying
banana, or I hope they're theones saying hey, don't do that,
or vice versa.
You know, if they're in asituation, I just want that
conversation to happen, andthat's the point that got me
over in Poster Syndrome, to keepwriting and talking about this,
(27:53):
and so I'd say, if anythingelse, lead with curiosity.
Research shows that curiosityis the antidote to judgment.
If we lead with that, that'llcreate a conversation that I
really think can change theworld.
Cindy Mendez (28:09):
I love that.
Thank you for sharing that withus today.
And I see your book.
If you're just listening andnot watching the video, you have
a stack of your book in theback and I love the cover.
It's perfect.
You know the bell shape onthere with the men right in the
middle, but you know, I justwant to open the floor for you
(28:29):
to tell us where can ourlisteners get your book?
What do you have going on forthose who want to learn more
about this topic on your website?
Kori Reed (28:39):
as well, yeah, thank you.
So the book is available onAmazon.
There's an e-book and thephysical copy book.
I'm hopefully gonna get theaudible book out by the end of
this year, excited about that.
But I also can be reached at myname, KoriReed.
com, and, just if you'relistening and not looking, my
name's a little unusual spellingit's K-O-R-I-R-E-E-D, so it's
(29:04):
KoriReed.
com and I would love to hearfrom anyone.
I love to hear from anyone.
What I'd love to do is hearfrom anyone else in their
experiences, because I said topeople I'm not looking, you
don't have to agree with me, butthat's where we can start the
conversation.
That's what I'm excited aboutand continue to explore how we
have this conversation so we cannormalize men engaging in
(29:25):
gender equity conversations.
Melissa Warner (29:26):
I love that.
So, Kori, we will gladly sharea link to your book on the
podcast when it releases and,for those of you who are
listening, joined again today byKori Reed, the author of Men in
the Middle.
It's been an absolute blasthaving you on the podcast today.
Such valuable insights.
You brought your energy andhave added a really fantastic
(29:48):
layer to the topic of genderequity.
So super grateful for your timeand all that.
You've shared your perspective.
We're delighted to have you,and here's to more enlightening
conversations in the future.
So thanks again.
Kori Reed (30:03):
Thank you for the opportunity.
I so appreciate it.
Melissa Warner (30:05):
All right.
Well, you've heard it herefirsthand Kori Reed, author of
Men in the Middle.
And as for Cindy and I, we'llleave you with Keep Interrupting
.
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