June 28, 2022 • 44 mins
In this episode, I sit down with Christine Hamel, an artist, educator and author the book, Sounding Bodies: Identity, Injustice, and the Voice. Before she landed where she is, she studied art, critical theory, English, classical voice, and opera. She was even the first website designer for the Independent Film Channel. But at this moment, Christine feels like it may be time to knock it all down. “It’s getting to the point where I feel like just because I’ve found success or that people want me to do certain things, doesn’t mean I have to keep doing them. I really feel like it just needs to all fall apart.”
Christine thinks about her current life as petals needing to fall away to expose the core. Those petals may be hiding something bigger. She tells us that since the pandemic and since being in her later 40s, she just keeps asking, “Did I get a chance to try this thing? Did I get a chance to take a deep dive into that aspect of life that I found really meaningful or joyful? And did I do enough? Did I do enough good to alleviate suffering? Did I do enough to care for others?”
As the mother of a trans child, Christine must grapple with how to keep her child safe: “We are absolutely terrified about the world right now and absolutely terrified about what’s going on with anti-trans sentiment and legislation. We live in this fairly liberal community, but it’s not progressive in the ways that there’s definitely space to feel safe.”
For Christine, grieving is what letting perfect burn means for her. “It’s like a little bit of the Phoenix. It’s that sense of, “why hold on to that?” There’s time for other things now, but not for that."
Highlights from Christine:
"I'm ready to let go of some things. The pandemic was a catalyst for this understanding, which is that I don't need to do everything all at once. I'm tired of trying to hold up too many projects and too many obligations. And hopefully, I have another half of my life left, but when I really look at it, I think there are still things that I would like to be able to learn to do that I haven't done, or where I feel like I want to double down on things that actually feel like I'm making a difference in people's lives in a new way, in a profound or different and more, maybe more tangible way. "
"With the voice, we often use the word natural, as I mentioned, so our whole premise is just that our voices can't exist outside of culture, and they can't exist outside of politics and they're filled with identity, and that's a really good thing. And so, just to even conceptualize stripping the voice of markers of identity, like your race, and class, or ethnicity, or gender, to get to something neutral or natural underneath can do real harm."
"I think what I would like people to know is that it's really their issue if they can't interpret or understand gender diversity. Our kid, even if they are in a process of becoming, or iterating, who they are going to be, they also know themselves— they know what they need to be and they get it. It may not be fully defined, but their inner being is in a process that feels good and whole, and that the way you may be receiving our kid is really your own issue to work out."
Don't Miss a Beat.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tara Beckett (00:23):
Hi, I'm Tara Beckett, and I'm so glad that
you're here for let perfectburn.
Christine Hamel has arrived inher current career as an artist,
educator, and author of thebook, sounding bodies identity,
injustice and the voice byfollowing her gut done a long
(00:47):
and winding path. But now,something inside her is saying
it's time to knock it all down.
Success and expectation arestarting to suffocate. And
although she does not know whatis next for her, she is ready to
start letting go, releasing thepieces that need to fall away.
Christine is the mother of atrans child, and she is
(01:10):
understandably terrified aboutthe world right now. As anti
trans sentiment, and legislationrages outside, Christine holds
on to the absolute joy of beingwith her team. Often clowning
together inside the house andpoking fun at her spouse.
Christine and her partner arefloored watching them dance.
(01:32):
They are inspired, watchingtheir child own exactly who they
are.
And in this haven with herfamily, Christina started
listening to what she calls aninner knowing in the marrow of
my bones.
(02:03):
Hi, everybody, I'm Tara Beckettand welcome back to let perfect
burn. Today I'm really pumped tohave in studio, theatre artist
professor and author of soundingbodies identity injustice and
the voice Christine Hamel. Howare you, Christine? I'm doing
well. Tara, thank you for havingme. This is really exciting, a
(02:25):
little intimidating. But I'mhappy to be here.
You know, Christine, when I wasreading about your journey, I
was really taken by what yousaid which is you've had a wild
out of balance homeostasis. Andnow you feel the disintegration
again. And I learned I'm alreadycrying.
Christine Hamel (02:50):
That's probably true. Yeah,
Tara Beckett (02:52):
no crying. So something hits you there. And I
would love to, for you to talkabout where you're at right now
where you've been and where youwant to go. I know that's a lot.
But let's let's go in.
Christine Hamel (03:05):
I think it's probably a midlife crisis. I
think that's what it isactually. But you know, it's
interesting, I was thinking backmy quarter life moment in my
20s. I was, first of all thequestion of sort of where I am
in my journey, I'm just stressedand a little dismayed that my
mind goes to like career, youknow, it's sort of like, what my
journey is sort of centeredaround work in certain ways,
(03:27):
which is no longer feeling sotenable. But, you know, in my
20s, I was thinking about howlong it took me to find the path
that I ended up being on in anirregular way you and I met
through theater, essentially.
And so it took me a long time tofind that that was going to be
like, the thing that was frontand center, and I felt really
torn and anxious and angsty andand like horrified with myself
(03:52):
for so long that I didn't knowlike what Wow, all my like
interests, desires, leaningswere going to come together
including, you know, having afamily including having a, you
know, a life that was connectedto friends or including having a
rich artistic life or whateverscholarly life so I took me a
(04:13):
really, really, really long timeto find theater. I studied
art and like critical theory,English and in college and then
I went and worked in new media,I was like, website designer for
the first website designer forthe independent film channel and
I was thinking about wantingfilm. And then I had this big
(04:36):
reversal I really missperforming because I had done a
lot of performing growing up andin college and singing and I was
like, You know what I'm gonna gowhole hog on and singing you
know that that was gonna be myso I like went to graduate
school for classical voice andopera and that took a huge,
tremendous gearshift to even getthrough those into the into that
(04:57):
in a sense, because that's soincredibly rigorous does
(05:23):
to play different kinds ofthings and not have those
really, really tight, I don'tknow, parameters within which I
needed to be able to expressmyself, you know, vocally and
and as a person. So you know, Ireally kind of recommitted
myself to performing in adifferent way or directing as a
theatre artist and eventuallywent to graduate school for
(05:44):
that. So anyway, it took melike, you know, 10 years out of
college to sort of bring all ofmy interests and focus together.
And I was just about to go tograduate school and do an MFA in
acting, and then I met thisperson, being my spouse.
(06:04):
Like, wait a second, I can'tjust flit around the country,
you know, right now. And I endedup staying close to where I had
been working, which I had beenworking in the opera programmes
at Boston University, I waslike, I'll, I'm gonna stay here.
And maybe, maybe I'm gonna startto sew some roots here. So some
roots, you know? Yeah. Yep. Andso you know, and for a while
(06:25):
that felt like, I really had asense of integration and
wholeness. And I felt extremelyfortunate to have sort of found
something, you know, theater, insome ways, feels it's
interdisciplinary. And it alsoallowed me to kind of wrap my
arms around all of thesedifferent aspects of myself, for
(06:45):
a long time, and teaching endedup being at the fore, but
obviously, professional work inthe theater and this sort of
artful, and very often reallyprecarious dance that, that we
were doing as a couple who wereboth theatre artists, both
teachers, and how we sort ofwere able to, you know, build a
(07:05):
family, we have one child, andit just, you know, make ends
meet. And it just was reallythis dance for a long time,
which was constantly shifting,like one of us was in, in the
spotlight, one of one of one,the other had to sort of take a
step back, and it was just sortof like trading off who was
getting work when and wastiring, but we sort of, that
(07:27):
sort of worked for a while. Andreally, really, up until the
pandemic, you know, I thinkthere was this sense of like,
okay, I'll see you in eightweeks, I'll see you in eight
weeks, you're the parent foreight weeks, you're the parent
for eight weeks, you know, andthat kind of thing. Another
thing that sort of started todevelop in my life, in the last
like six or seven years wasbringing back my worst scholarly
(07:50):
self and really thinking deeplyinto sort of,
suppositions and questions thatI had around around theatre
practice around voice, which issort of my my specialty in
theater training, and reallywanting to take a deeper dive
into, you know, understandingsome of the know theoretical
(08:10):
principles around, like, how wedo our work, or why we do work
and what bliss even freakinmeans, like, I'm starting to
question. So that also felt likean act of integration, like
bringing this part of myselfthat critical theory, part of
myself that was living back inmy late teens and 20s into my
current life. So anyway, to getto where I am now is the long,
(08:33):
long version long of an answer.
Which is like, I'm ready to letgo of some things, especially
the pandemic was sort of acatalyst for this understanding,
which is that I don't need to doeverything all at once. I'm
tired of trying to hold up toomany, too many too many projects
and too many obligations. AndI'm also really feeling like I'm
(08:57):
looking at, you know, this,hopefully, I have another half
of my life left, but reallylooking at it and thinking there
are still things that I wouldlike to be able to learn to do
that I haven't done or where Ifeel like I want to double down
on things that actually feellike we're making a difference
in people's lives and in a newway, in a profound or different
(09:19):
and more, maybe more tangibleway. And, and just getting tired
of certain things that I justdon't feel like I need to be
doing anymore. And getting tothe point where it's like, just
because I've found success incertain things doesn't mean or
that people want me to docertain things doesn't mean I
have to do. Yeah, yeah. So Ikind of wanted to I really feel
(09:41):
like it just needs to all fallapart. Yes.
Tara Beckett (09:46):
Yeah.
I think letting it fall up.
part, I think you said somethingto the effect of trying to put
things back together in a waythat like your bone marrow
(10:07):
understands. And I was like, oh,Christine, like, that's a big
thing to try to listen to. And Idon't know if you can speak to,
you know, is there anythingthat's really calling you or
really pulling you right now?
Christine Hamel (10:23):
Yeah. Yeah, there are things that are really
pulling me right now there. Andthere's a lot of fear around
those things, too, which is, youknow, I got a taste of writing,
you know, when I've like writtena play, I've written an
academic, you know, monographI've written, but I kind of feel
(10:45):
like writing is something I needto do more. And I have, you
know, at least a couple ofthings that I feel like are
stories that are worth telling.
And I'm not sure if they'rewriting for solo performance,
I'm not sure if they're writingfor this stage, I think maybe
I'd like to try writing fiction,you know, a novel, which is sort
of feels like, of course,everyone has a novel. And on
some level, I feel like no, Ireally, really do feel like it's
(11:08):
whatever and whatever form ittakes not because I want to have
any particular ambitions aroundletting that be a professional
colleague, but it does feel likeit's something I need to create
space to do. And I have had somefear around doing some solo
performance, which I find myselfin service of other people's
solo work a lot, you know, likethe catalysts or the director or
(11:32):
the CO play writer, divisor, butI think I've been doing a dance
around wanting to do one formyself first.
Tara Beckett (11:41):
I want to see well, and to go back to your
writing and your book, I'm justtaken by identity injustice in
the voice. And can you walk usthrough a little bit? What that
what was? What was the sort ofyour inspiration to write this
book?
Christine Hamel (12:02):
Yeah, thank you. I had been having some, I
guess, some qualms for some timeabout, you know, teaching voice
and I teach voice toundergraduate theater majors and
actors. And it was sort ofaround like, 2015 maybe, or I
think it was around 2015 Whenthere was a lot of, kind of like
(12:23):
media conversation around. Itwas particularly around women's
voices and the sort of vocaltropes that were happening a lot
like, up speak and vocal fry.
And there was also a lot ofconversation in the voice and
speech trainers world or the mycircles theater world about, you
know how awful these thingswere. And people were sort of
like throwing away their ownpower by employing these, you
(12:45):
know, it was like Kim, it waslike the Kardashians. And it was
like all those NPR reporters whowere, you know, really creating
a new vocal style, but it waskind of it was rubbing people
the wrong way. And there waslike, a lot of hatred, and a lot
of anger was really afascinating conversation. And I
found myself on the side ofwanting to maybe preserve and
(13:06):
protect different vocal ways ofbeing that maybe, you know, I
was seeing as quite gendered,and hearing as gendered, despite
the fact that they didn't soundparticularly free, you know, and
even though my job was around,like freeing people's voices, so
I was just having an ethicalproblem around how to even talk
about different vocal ways ofbeing that didn't feel like you
(13:29):
know, this, like, big openchannel to express your inner
life and excavate stories thathad been, you know, sent into
hiding, particularly from fromthought in bodies that might not
always feel like their storiesare welcome, in certain spaces.
So anyway, I just, it was justsomething I was thinking about.
And I just happen to have afriend who is a philosopher and
(13:50):
a feminist philosopher of thebody, and it was literally just
a casual conversation where it'slike, oh, I have an ethical
question. And she, she just wasreally interested in it. And,
you know, it's like, what do youteach? What is it called? The
natural voice is like, we'vekind of like I know, Annie, we
got rid of the word natural andfeminist theory, like 30 years
(14:12):
ago, however, helped me to helpme think through this. And then
so she got interested in it. Sowe really have been co authoring
because there hadn't been a lotof feminist theory about the
voice there's been a ton ofstuff about the body and you
know, generally, but but notabout the voice as a part of the
body and how voices are receivedbeing really theorized from that
(14:34):
point of view. So so we both hadlike a gap to fill in terms of
me rethinking and her alsodelving into a different area.
So we just started to readeverything we could about this
topic, and I was just so happyto have you know, a project of
this type where I really got tothink deeply into what I do and
not just take things for grantedthat you know, just take for
(14:56):
granted that what what we do istheater or trainers is
implicitly benign, because it'snot true. You know, we have to
think about where these thingscome from. And I don't think
that had been thought aboutenough. And anyway, we ended up
having enough material over acouple of years that we felt we
had, we could we could actuallyput together a book. And so we
(15:16):
did and came out this fall and,and we're still, it's like,
every time we're asked to talkabout it, or think about it, we
really literally have to rereadit, because it's like, what did
we write? Like, what might haveyou say, Oh, that was good
point, you know? A good bit.
(15:37):
Yeah. But it's been super bigchallenge for me, because I'm
not a philosopher, because I didnot, you know, I don't even
think of myself as an academicreally, but I had to wear that
hat. So I felt like I got thiswonderful is almost like I was a
graduate student with this,like, Master professor for seven
years who took me under herwing. And, you know, and she had
(15:57):
to fill in gaps in herunderstanding to but that was a
gift to having something likethat to work on was a gift. So
I'm looking for the next, thenext thing, and I'm not sure
it's, it's, it's an academicthing.
Tara Beckett (16:07):
That's really cool.
Christine Hamel (16:09):
I love it. So yeah, I didn't really get into
the identity and injustice part.
But, you know, let me just saythat real quick, I guess. Yeah.
You know, the idea that I think,as you know, in theater
training, we often talk aboutbodies as neutral, you know, or
that they're, like, you know,sort of, I don't know, thinking
about ways that we we you sortof have habitual ways of being
(16:30):
that sometimes are reallyimpacted by society in various
ways. But anyway, with thevoice, we often use the word
natural, as I mentioned, so, soour whole premise is just that
our voices can't exist outsideof culture, and they can't exist
outside of politics and, and,you know, they're filled with
(16:51):
identity, and that's a reallygood thing. And so, so it's just
I just to even conceptualizestripping the voice of markers
of identity, like your, youknow, whatever it is your race
and class or ethnicity, or, orgender. And to get to something
neutral or natural underneathcan do real harm. That idea that
there's something underneaththat's on gendered or unclasped,
(17:13):
or whatever it is, not thatwe're stuck in any of those
things are those things can'tchange, or don't change all the
time. But anyway, it's reallyfundamentally shifted my
thinking about what a race evenis, and what it does, and how
it's really important in how weparticipate in relationships and
social life.
Tara Beckett (17:45):
So, as you are going through this sort of
disintegration that you're in atthis point, can you talk to us
about any breaking points thathave been formed? Maybe where
you want to go?
Christine Hamel (18:04):
Yeah, yeah. I think I had, like, What can I
say, and not get into trouble?
So no, I did have recent, arecent breaking point, I have
actually this wonderfulopportunity to step away from,
from my own university locallyfor a few weeks this spring, and
just be I was a guest artist atanother university. And so it
(18:25):
was just an interesting time tokind of step back from just the
ways in which myinstitutionalized brain had been
working and, and I ended uphaving a kind of difficult
conversation at one point withreally my boss here at an at
Boston University. And, and Ihad just this this moment of
(18:47):
feeling like, my values were notnecessarily aligning with, with
some institutional values aroundlike, what prestige looks like
or what what having a meaningfullife and a meaningful career
actually looks like. And it wasaround something very, rather
stupid, you know, I don't even Ican't even really get into what
(19:11):
it is, but it's about reallywhat I feel are like, arbitrary
markers of success. It's a kindof thing, you know, which, which
keeps me off of Facebook as muchas possible, which is like,
looking at other people's livesand thinking, Oh, that looks
like success that looks likethey've lived a successful life.
And I think universities andinstitutions that have that
(19:33):
where their reputation hinges oncertain markers of success, that
really don't have a lot ofbearing on values around
teaching or, or even even like asignificant like contribution to
the field. There's just certainthings that I feel like are
(19:53):
really arbitrary. That just mademe feel like for the first time
in a long time, I felt like I Idon't have to justify that, you
know, or I don't have to getbehind that. In fact, I could
step away from that and say youactually know that that doesn't
align, and that's okay. Or Icould still keep a relationship
with that and know that thatdoesn't align. And I'm, that's,
(20:15):
you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonnajust know that for myself. It
felt like I had this real momentof clarity, which was like, I
don't have to pretend that italigns to pretend. Yeah. And
what I want to do about that,I'm not sure but it but it
really was like, something shookloose. And I was like, oh, no,
that's just not me. That is justnot me. And my Miss fitting, you
(20:39):
know, with myself or whateverthe expectations are. Felt like,
oh, no, it's okay. It's a lossto give up a certain idea of
like, who I think I should be,or who I'm being asked to be,
you know, in that kind ofinstitution. I hope I'm not
being too vague. But I just, youknow, I know what it's like to
work for an institution,essentially. Yeah.
Tara Beckett (21:02):
Yeah, I mean, I'm putting that into my own life.
And, you know, we could insert Ithink many different things into
your story. Without thespecifics of sometimes I felt
like the choice was between walkaway, or completely become this
other thing that isn't, isn'tme. Right. And I think we just
(21:23):
spoke to is that middle ground,right, you actually have a
choice to just acknowledge it,live with it. And know it's not
for you. Which is, it feels likethat's an empowering stance in
and of itself.
Christine Hamel (21:36):
Yes, I thank you for for saying it like that.
Because that is, I think, Ithink it is empowering to know,
like, that's not me. That's not.
And maybe that's that feeling ofwanting certain things to fall
away, you know, which is like,I, maybe it's this, I don't
know, something about settingboundaries, something about
saying like, I don't have toidentify with that. I could step
(21:57):
away if I wanted to, and beokay, that it's better. No,
maybe just this image I have isalmost like, better. No. It's
like, flowery. But you know,like the idea of petals falling
off. But what's left is likeit's got is the core. And I
think I've been holding, youknow, a lot of these petals
(22:18):
holding me up for a long time.
And it's like, actually, youknow, and that's what I learned
about going somewhere else forsix weeks, which was like, Oh, I
carry with me who I am. And it'snot related to my positionality.
In institution or place. Yeah.
Well, it's
Tara Beckett (22:35):
interesting. You got that clarity by going to
another institution, right. Soyeah, that clarity didn't come
because you completely extractedyourself from your whole being
right. It's interesting thatyou're like, wait a second, if I
want to participate in aninstitution. It's not just this
one that could that would wantme or hold me, right. There are
(22:56):
other options into the world.
And I just love how you'retalking about how things are not
these finite, hard black andwhite choices.
Christine Hamel (23:05):
Yes. And I think sometimes that feeling
that there are finite, hardenedBlack and White has put me in
significant crisis in my in mylife, and it's now feeling like,
you know, maybe not, maybe,maybe it's okay to have these
like these day to daynegotiations matter. And they
add up and take some take somebravery. Realize that, you know,
(23:34):
yeah, yeah. There's a lot offear that comes with changing
anything. You know, yeah. How Iinteract with something.
Tara Beckett (23:41):
Like it. Yeah. And to be really clear with
yourself, maybe of, if you letit fall away, and you're in
something else, there'll bethings about that, that maybe
don't totally align, but you'rewilling to take it right. That's
right. There isn't a perfectlanding point.
Christine Hamel (23:59):
Exactly, exactly. It's interesting, too,
because there are a lot ofpeople I mean, the great
resignation, obviously, the timewent and I'm seeing in academia
a lot where people are just likeI'm done with institutions and
done with them. And I feel likewell, yeah, I get that and maybe
that will be maybe that will bea path but I want to go down
maybe thought about itseriously, but I don't know that
(24:22):
it's that simple. You know, Idon't know because I think we're
always trying to create thingsand structures and it's just
like which structure is actuallygoing to allow me to feel whole
and human and really centercenter well being you know,
that's like the new nothing newbut it's the primary focus at
this point. Why why do anythingif it's if it makes me feel bad
Tara Beckett (24:49):
you know, when you were talking with me about
trying to make space for change,but that you were managing some
intense Heather's gonna talk alittle bit about that.
Christine Hamel (25:04):
Oh gosh. Yeah, well, these intense tethers to
which I think I was referringare a real sense of obligation
and responsibility to otherpeople. You know, I think if I,
it's interesting, there's acolleague who is in the UK, and
(25:25):
there are some freedoms that hehas there who just made this
really big switch from being atheatre person and voice trainer
and is doing something reallydifferent, just like decided
done with that, I'm moving tothis other thing. And, you know,
I think it's really a differentsituation, if you have health
care, you know, like, there'snational health care, and if you
don't have a child, and thereare ways in which the tether of
(25:48):
just like wanting to support myfamily, my kid is, you know,
going to be applying to college.
And for years, you know, thereare things where it's like, I
wish I had certain kinds offreedom to to make more radical
changes at this point, and itmay just be a delay, or it may
just be smaller changes that youknow, that I have oriented
myself differently. And then thetethered to, you know, I've put
(26:10):
a lot of time and care intotrying to build a work situation
or, you know, in a program in away that I care about, you know,
and that I want to nourish, andI want to leave the campsite
better than I found it. Andcertainly, yeah, that feels
like, it's an institutionaltether, but it's like, wanting
(26:31):
to, to keep providing, I don'tknow, support and care for
students and, and all the thingsthat feel really strong to me. I
think, you know, so first, firstand foremost, though, it's,
it's, it's a, it's real, thatwhen you have a family, and
there's another, there's a childinvolved, it does, it does
(26:53):
change, for me has changed myfeeling of that feeling of in my
20s of being able to sort of tryon a lot of different things.
It's not it's harder now.
Absolutely. But I do have atremendous sort of, you know,
envy for that feeling of Iactually, I'm going to switch
now I'm going to do somethingnew, but I feel like I'm having
(27:15):
a lot of conversations withpeople who are about my age, who
are really wondering, Am I tooold to to learn something new
and do something new? Is it oris this the time? You know, is
this Yeah, I'm to do it before Iuse it, you know, without having
to wait until retirement? Right.
Like closer?
Tara Beckett (27:35):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, you know, when you're
talking about this, hopefullyyou have the second half of your
life that you're at the midYeah. But I think the pandemic
and being in my 40s, that combowas just like, hang on. If I
write my eulogy right now, Iwant it to say some things that
(27:58):
I really want it to say. So whatis Yeah,
Christine Hamel (28:01):
that's exactly right, Tara. That's exactly
right. And it may not be for me,I'm realizing it may not have to
do with like, you know, legacyor impact, or maybe some of the
things that I would have beenthinking about when I was much
younger, it's more about did Iget a chance to try this thing?
Did I get a chance to take adeep dive into that aspect of
(28:22):
life that that I found reallydeeply meaningful or joyful? And
did I do enough? Did I doenough? Good, you know, did I do
enough to alleviate suffering?
Did I do enough to care forothers? That's sort of something
I care about, suddenly much morethan sort of arbitrary notions
(28:43):
of success and, and prestigethat are again, often
institutional values that I feelmyself out of alignment with,
you know, yeah.
Tara Beckett (28:56):
And I think we get I mean, I'm gonna say for
myself, I get lost in the day today really quickly, can sort of
lose my compass of some thingsthat I want to be doing. So
absolutely constant check in oflike, where are we at?
Christine Hamel (29:12):
It's so frustrating. That compass is
like, I love you know, I feellike I've had a couple of really
clear moments in the last youknow, four weeks, like, I know,
I know how to orient my compassand then something like that go.
It's elusive. I feel like Ishould know how to orient by
now. But then it's broken. It'sbroken.
Tara Beckett (29:44):
You are a parent, your mother and I would just
love for you to talk about whatuh, what joys Do you have? Being
a parent and then maybe what isyour greatest fear?
Christine Hamel (29:55):
Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. Thank you. But Joe, I
mean, it's all pretty joyful.
Like I love being a parent,it's, it's the great joy of my
life. And we really is. I don'tregret it for a second I maybe
regret like, we only had one,you know, and then that's but
but listen, this kid, we'reblessed, you know, I feel so
(30:16):
lucky, this particular childand, and I, one of the things I,
I love at this stage, you know,I've loved every stage, but I
really like because they're 13now is just how full of
personality they are. They're sofully who they are. But also
like, how much they are alsolike me. We get to, I mean, it's
(30:38):
almost like it's bizarre. It'slike having my little it's
having like a sibling aroundsometimes now too, which is just
so fun. You know? And yeah, ofcourse, of course is the parent
parental child relationshipthere. But like, we just have so
much fun. You know, it's, it'sawesome, you get to be silly, we
get to, you know, behave poorly,we get teased my spouse, I mean,
(31:01):
it's just like, mischievous fun.
And that is truly like, I justadore that. And I also love
seeing them become who they arethat so unlike who either myself
and my spouse are, you know thatthey have this other? I mean,
other qualities that I just werejust like, where did that come
(31:22):
from, you know that. And I seein there, they're a dancer. And
so when they dance in certainways, we're just like, mystified
by it blown away, by just howconnected they are. So what's
the second one of my fears? Oh,gosh, I mean, as a trans kid,
(31:44):
they are someone that we are, Imean, absolutely terrified about
the world right now, you know,absolutely terrified about
what's going on with anti trans,you know, sentiment and
legislation. And it's justunbelievably, it's stupefying
how, how, you know, I mean, welive in this, like, fairly
(32:06):
liberal community, but even thiscommunity is not, it's not
progressive in the ways that,you know, it's, there's no,
there's no, there's no spacethat's going to feel safe in
certain ways. And it's justabout, you know, wanting to help
orient our kids so that theythat they feel they can handle
(32:27):
various situations, and alsoprotects them from some of those
as well in you know, in a in alife or death kind of way. And
also to try to alleviate themfrom having to feel like they
have to be the spokesperson forevery single LG LGBTQ person in
their school. And there's a lotof like, stress and anxiety that
(32:51):
comes from that. And so, they'reall of these things that are
coming up that even when theycame out, when they were, you
know, in fifth grade, aroundbeing non binary, it felt sort
of that was sort of manageable,and it was happening during the
pandemic. And it felt like wewere, you know, people were
shifting pronouns easily, it wassplit, there was a lot of
(33:12):
support, but, but the worldkeeps changing, and they are
getting older, and it's all ofthis stuff around wanting to
keep them happy and safe, arejust fundamental and do feel
like, could be life or deathissues. So that's, that's what
terrifies me the most. Yeah.
And,
Tara Beckett (33:32):
you know, I guess I would love to know, like, that
world that seems or is not evenseems, is so threatening to a
trans child. What do you wishthe world would know about them?
Christine Hamel (33:47):
Yeah, I think I think what I'm hearing from, you
know, even some of the mostbenign, you know, peers of our
kid, you know, this is sort ofan example of it, the idea that,
you know, that it's like, beingtrans is trendy, or it's just a
way of like getting attention,or, you know, all of these
(34:07):
things that sort of feel likeearmarks for not wanting to take
that identity seriously, youknow, that I think most of the
time, I think what I would likepeople to know is that it's
really their issue if they can'tinterpret or understand gender
diversity, you know, and thatour kid even if they are in a
(34:30):
process of becoming, oriterating, who they are going to
be they also are they knowthemselves, you know, like, they
know what they need to be theyget it. It may not be fully
defined, but their inner being aprocess that feels good and
whole, and that the way you maybe receiving our kid is really
(34:51):
your own issue to work out. Thatit's, yeah, that it's, it's not
for you to decide whether or notit's a valuable identity to have
Tara Beckett (35:00):
Yes. And, you know, we were talking about how
when we both became parents, ourwhole job felt like just stay
alive and your goodly firstyear, it's so easy stay alive,
it's
Christine Hamel (35:19):
all we got to do is keep you alive that first
year. me really. I know thatfirst year is like, so hard. But
it also was so simple, you know,in a way, I enjoyed how it was
simple. It was like, meet yourneeds, meet your needs, meet
your needs. And somehow thatgets harder, you know, just the
simplicity of having someone'sneeds met?
Tara Beckett (35:42):
And do you have any advice that you'd give
people who want to be or whowant to become parents?
Christine Hamel (35:50):
Yeah, I mean, I, part of me, of course, feels
like, who am I to give advice toanyone about that at all, and
everyone's situation is sodifferent. But I will say I was
thinking about this a little bitin terms of readiness, you know,
and just like that thing with,what what I want the world to
know about, about my kid is thatthey know, they know who they
(36:12):
are. And I think he, I think Ialmost took some really bad
advice from, you know, a mentalhealth counselor, actually,
about my readiness to be aparent. And, you know, in my, my
openness, my vulnerability,wanting to, to really be careful
about that, but also feelingthis, like, you know, talk about
(36:33):
that. That compass, I sort ofknew that I was getting bad
advice. And I knew that I was,we were really ready in
significant ways, like,emotionally ready, mentally
ready, and I'm really glad Ididn't heed the advice to hold
off, you know, that I so anyway,my advice is don't don't listen
(36:54):
to anyone to tell you thatyou're ready or not to have to
build a family because, youknow, you'll know, or, or trust,
you know, trust that, you know,it's no one's job to decide for
you, you know, anyway, I'mreally glad that I, that we just
did what felt right. So that's,that's the marrow of your bones
feeling? No, no, actually. No,I'm good.
Tara Beckett (37:32):
And I was cracking up, because when I read the
question I asked about, youknow, what would you tell your
18 year old self? I was like,oh, Christine, I think we're
related.
It was something aboutI don't remember if there's
something about like, I don'tknow, have more sex. I was like,
Yeah, I was really square, youknow, and I kind of, and
(37:56):
something, you said something tothe effect of just like, you
know, knowing, believing thatit's all going to be okay, that
like, you're okay, it's going tobe okay, you know, yeah,
Christine Hamel (38:08):
yeah, yeah. I think I wasn't I, for me, it was
less about being square, becauseinwardly I'm not at all. But I
was shy, you know, and I didn'ttake as many risks around like,
building, you know, I think Icame out of college with all
these built in communities as anintrovert that I really relied
on, and that I felt really castout into the open sea as my
(38:29):
early 20s, and was shy aboutcreating new relationships,
including, you know, romanticrelationships or sexual
relationships. And I, I kind of,of course, look back, like, what
was the problem? are so capable?
You know, of course, they didit, but like, but I could have,
I feel like I could have beenbraver and I've always
appreciated when people havereached out to me and I've took
(38:51):
me a long time to acknowledgethat they're vulnerable to you.
I'm not the only vulnerableperson, you know, I'm not so
anyway, so there was that butthen thinking about, you know,
that oh, just that that anxietyI had about how am I going to
make my life work? I know, Idon't have enough time, there
isn't enough time or I or I'mtoo afraid of failure, whatever
(39:12):
it is. I would love for my 18year old self to know like, oh,
no, you're gonna you're gonnahit all those things, you're
gonna get to all those things,you know, and even when you're,
you know, 1448 you're stillthinking about, Okay, well, I'll
fit that in before I know hopewith some grace and good health
and, you know, luck that thereis time, you know, in a way
(39:34):
there is time. But, and it'spossible to get to get to it
all.
Tara Beckett (39:43):
And now, as a woman who's 48 When you're your
best self, what does it looklike?
Dancing wildly in the streets.
Christine Hamel (39:57):
Kinda I think I'm one of my best self is
funny. I was thinking this wholepodcast terror like I seem, I
feel like I can default to beingso formal or so like, the in
charge or something, you know,but I think my best self is when
I'm, you know, letting myself beneedy or needful, you know,
(40:21):
relying in a good way, like athome, you know, my best self is
usually here at home. It's alsomy worst self in a way, where
I'm just I can rage and be like,you know, irritable, and like,
full of whatever that I that Isometimes get. It's
compartmentalized way. But Ithink my best self is honestly
when I'm clowning when I'm notnot theatrical, theatrical
(40:42):
clouding, but also like with my13 year old, where I get to be a
13 year old, or we get to beplayful, where I get to be
impulsive. And we're nothing,you know, like, all this stuff
falls away. That's, that feelslike life or death when you
know, like, just the ability toroll with, you know, whatever's
happening in a way. But I that'salso when I'm experiencing the
(41:03):
most joy. So when it's all justlike rolling around in the
floor.
Tara Beckett (41:08):
All of a sudden, I have this image of find a
videographer and make a silentfilm with your child. I love you
amazing. Amazing. Like no words,you, you know, with your child
doing these movies, and just itwould be an incredible film. So
Christine Hamel (41:27):
funny, because we actually, in the early part
of the pandemic, there was atheater who asked us to do a
little promo video for there.
And then they did they ended upnot doing anything in this
project at all. But but thepoint is, my spouse and I were
being very, like, uptight andformal. And we asked our art at
the time, I don't know, 10 yearold to start, like being
(41:50):
irritating in the background.
Like we created this home. Andthey were like cartwheeling,
they were dancing. They wereplaying their violin, and it was
this whole clowning routine. Wecame up with them anyway. I
think. I think beer impulse isgreat, because I would love to.
Tara Beckett (42:07):
Yeah, it would just be it'd be brilliant. I
know your child, it would beamazing. Yes, so project, write
a book, write a one person playdo a film with your child. I
think we've got a list here.
Christine Hamel (42:23):
Things to look forward to Yes.
Tara Beckett (42:36):
Christina, this has been amazing. I'm so glad
you came on. And just before wesign off, I would love for you
to speak to what let perfectburn means to you or brings up
for you.
Christine Hamel (42:47):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because I was
saying to you earlier, Tara,that I felt like I don't belong
in this podcast, because I'm sopreoccupied with perfection in a
way, you know. And it's like,what, what can I have nothing to
say on that front, except thatI'm in the middle of it. But I
think you know, for me, I can'teven remember what I what I
(43:09):
wrote. You know, when you askedme that question the first time,
but it's just oh, I don't know.
I think it's like, I think maybeat this point, it has a lot to
do with grieving, letting thingsgo. allowing myself to lose what
I had and letting something newbe born. You know, I think
that's that's probably what it'slike a little bit Phoenix. Like,
(43:31):
I think that sense, you know,it's like, Why hold on life. You
know, there just isn't thereisn't time for that. There's
time for other things, but notfor that.
Tara Beckett (43:41):
I love it. Thank you. I totally did.
Thank you so much for beinghere. And Christine. Take care
and we'll be in touch. Thankyou. Thanks so much. This was
fun. Bye. All right. Perfect.
Hi, I'm Tara Beckett, and I'm so glad that
you're here for let perfectburn.
Christine Hamel has arrived inher current career as an artist,
educator, and author of thebook, sounding bodies identity,
injustice and the voice byfollowing her gut done a long
(00:47):
and winding path. But now,something inside her is saying
it's time to knock it all down.
Success and expectation arestarting to suffocate. And
although she does not know whatis next for her, she is ready to
start letting go, releasing thepieces that need to fall away.
Christine is the mother of atrans child, and she is
(01:10):
understandably terrified aboutthe world right now. As anti
trans sentiment, and legislationrages outside, Christine holds
on to the absolute joy of beingwith her team. Often clowning
together inside the house andpoking fun at her spouse.
Christine and her partner arefloored watching them dance.
(01:32):
They are inspired, watchingtheir child own exactly who they
are.
And in this haven with herfamily, Christina started
listening to what she calls aninner knowing in the marrow of
my bones.
(02:03):
Hi, everybody, I'm Tara Beckettand welcome back to let perfect
burn. Today I'm really pumped tohave in studio, theatre artist
professor and author of soundingbodies identity injustice and
the voice Christine Hamel. Howare you, Christine? I'm doing
well. Tara, thank you for havingme. This is really exciting, a
(02:25):
little intimidating. But I'mhappy to be here.
You know, Christine, when I wasreading about your journey, I
was really taken by what yousaid which is you've had a wild
out of balance homeostasis. Andnow you feel the disintegration
again. And I learned I'm alreadycrying.
Christine Hamel (02:50):
That's probably true. Yeah,
Tara Beckett (02:52):
no crying. So something hits you there. And I
would love to, for you to talkabout where you're at right now
where you've been and where youwant to go. I know that's a lot.
But let's let's go in.
Christine Hamel (03:05):
I think it's probably a midlife crisis. I
think that's what it isactually. But you know, it's
interesting, I was thinking backmy quarter life moment in my
20s. I was, first of all thequestion of sort of where I am
in my journey, I'm just stressedand a little dismayed that my
mind goes to like career, youknow, it's sort of like, what my
journey is sort of centeredaround work in certain ways,
(03:27):
which is no longer feeling sotenable. But, you know, in my
20s, I was thinking about howlong it took me to find the path
that I ended up being on in anirregular way you and I met
through theater, essentially.
And so it took me a long time tofind that that was going to be
like, the thing that was frontand center, and I felt really
torn and anxious and angsty andand like horrified with myself
(03:52):
for so long that I didn't knowlike what Wow, all my like
interests, desires, leaningswere going to come together
including, you know, having afamily including having a, you
know, a life that was connectedto friends or including having a
rich artistic life or whateverscholarly life so I took me a
(04:13):
really, really, really long timeto find theater. I studied
art and like critical theory,English and in college and then
I went and worked in new media,I was like, website designer for
the first website designer forthe independent film channel and
I was thinking about wantingfilm. And then I had this big
(04:36):
reversal I really missperforming because I had done a
lot of performing growing up andin college and singing and I was
like, You know what I'm gonna gowhole hog on and singing you
know that that was gonna be myso I like went to graduate
school for classical voice andopera and that took a huge,
tremendous gearshift to even getthrough those into the into that
(04:57):
in a sense, because that's soincredibly rigorous does
(05:23):
to play different kinds ofthings and not have those
really, really tight, I don'tknow, parameters within which I
needed to be able to expressmyself, you know, vocally and
and as a person. So you know, Ireally kind of recommitted
myself to performing in adifferent way or directing as a
theatre artist and eventuallywent to graduate school for
(05:44):
that. So anyway, it took melike, you know, 10 years out of
college to sort of bring all ofmy interests and focus together.
And I was just about to go tograduate school and do an MFA in
acting, and then I met thisperson, being my spouse.
(06:04):
Like, wait a second, I can'tjust flit around the country,
you know, right now. And I endedup staying close to where I had
been working, which I had beenworking in the opera programmes
at Boston University, I waslike, I'll, I'm gonna stay here.
And maybe, maybe I'm gonna startto sew some roots here. So some
roots, you know? Yeah. Yep. Andso you know, and for a while
(06:25):
that felt like, I really had asense of integration and
wholeness. And I felt extremelyfortunate to have sort of found
something, you know, theater, insome ways, feels it's
interdisciplinary. And it alsoallowed me to kind of wrap my
arms around all of thesedifferent aspects of myself, for
(06:45):
a long time, and teaching endedup being at the fore, but
obviously, professional work inthe theater and this sort of
artful, and very often reallyprecarious dance that, that we
were doing as a couple who wereboth theatre artists, both
teachers, and how we sort ofwere able to, you know, build a
(07:05):
family, we have one child, andit just, you know, make ends
meet. And it just was reallythis dance for a long time,
which was constantly shifting,like one of us was in, in the
spotlight, one of one of one,the other had to sort of take a
step back, and it was just sortof like trading off who was
getting work when and wastiring, but we sort of, that
(07:27):
sort of worked for a while. Andreally, really, up until the
pandemic, you know, I thinkthere was this sense of like,
okay, I'll see you in eightweeks, I'll see you in eight
weeks, you're the parent foreight weeks, you're the parent
for eight weeks, you know, andthat kind of thing. Another
thing that sort of started todevelop in my life, in the last
like six or seven years wasbringing back my worst scholarly
(07:50):
self and really thinking deeplyinto sort of,
suppositions and questions thatI had around around theatre
practice around voice, which issort of my my specialty in
theater training, and reallywanting to take a deeper dive
into, you know, understandingsome of the know theoretical
(08:10):
principles around, like, how wedo our work, or why we do work
and what bliss even freakinmeans, like, I'm starting to
question. So that also felt likean act of integration, like
bringing this part of myselfthat critical theory, part of
myself that was living back inmy late teens and 20s into my
current life. So anyway, to getto where I am now is the long,
(08:33):
long version long of an answer.
Which is like, I'm ready to letgo of some things, especially
the pandemic was sort of acatalyst for this understanding,
which is that I don't need to doeverything all at once. I'm
tired of trying to hold up toomany, too many too many projects
and too many obligations. AndI'm also really feeling like I'm
(08:57):
looking at, you know, this,hopefully, I have another half
of my life left, but reallylooking at it and thinking there
are still things that I wouldlike to be able to learn to do
that I haven't done or where Ifeel like I want to double down
on things that actually feellike we're making a difference
in people's lives and in a newway, in a profound or different
(09:19):
and more, maybe more tangibleway. And, and just getting tired
of certain things that I justdon't feel like I need to be
doing anymore. And getting tothe point where it's like, just
because I've found success incertain things doesn't mean or
that people want me to docertain things doesn't mean I
have to do. Yeah, yeah. So Ikind of wanted to I really feel
(09:41):
like it just needs to all fallapart. Yes.
Tara Beckett (09:46):
Yeah.
I think letting it fall up.
part, I think you said somethingto the effect of trying to put
things back together in a waythat like your bone marrow
(10:07):
understands. And I was like, oh,Christine, like, that's a big
thing to try to listen to. And Idon't know if you can speak to,
you know, is there anythingthat's really calling you or
really pulling you right now?
Christine Hamel (10:23):
Yeah. Yeah, there are things that are really
pulling me right now there. Andthere's a lot of fear around
those things, too, which is, youknow, I got a taste of writing,
you know, when I've like writtena play, I've written an
academic, you know, monographI've written, but I kind of feel
(10:45):
like writing is something I needto do more. And I have, you
know, at least a couple ofthings that I feel like are
stories that are worth telling.
And I'm not sure if they'rewriting for solo performance,
I'm not sure if they're writingfor this stage, I think maybe
I'd like to try writing fiction,you know, a novel, which is sort
of feels like, of course,everyone has a novel. And on
some level, I feel like no, Ireally, really do feel like it's
(11:08):
whatever and whatever form ittakes not because I want to have
any particular ambitions aroundletting that be a professional
colleague, but it does feel likeit's something I need to create
space to do. And I have had somefear around doing some solo
performance, which I find myselfin service of other people's
solo work a lot, you know, likethe catalysts or the director or
(11:32):
the CO play writer, divisor, butI think I've been doing a dance
around wanting to do one formyself first.
Tara Beckett (11:41):
I want to see well, and to go back to your
writing and your book, I'm justtaken by identity injustice in
the voice. And can you walk usthrough a little bit? What that
what was? What was the sort ofyour inspiration to write this
book?
Christine Hamel (12:02):
Yeah, thank you. I had been having some, I
guess, some qualms for some timeabout, you know, teaching voice
and I teach voice toundergraduate theater majors and
actors. And it was sort ofaround like, 2015 maybe, or I
think it was around 2015 Whenthere was a lot of, kind of like
(12:23):
media conversation around. Itwas particularly around women's
voices and the sort of vocaltropes that were happening a lot
like, up speak and vocal fry.
And there was also a lot ofconversation in the voice and
speech trainers world or the mycircles theater world about, you
know how awful these thingswere. And people were sort of
like throwing away their ownpower by employing these, you
(12:45):
know, it was like Kim, it waslike the Kardashians. And it was
like all those NPR reporters whowere, you know, really creating
a new vocal style, but it waskind of it was rubbing people
the wrong way. And there waslike, a lot of hatred, and a lot
of anger was really afascinating conversation. And I
found myself on the side ofwanting to maybe preserve and
(13:06):
protect different vocal ways ofbeing that maybe, you know, I
was seeing as quite gendered,and hearing as gendered, despite
the fact that they didn't soundparticularly free, you know, and
even though my job was around,like freeing people's voices, so
I was just having an ethicalproblem around how to even talk
about different vocal ways ofbeing that didn't feel like you
(13:29):
know, this, like, big openchannel to express your inner
life and excavate stories thathad been, you know, sent into
hiding, particularly from fromthought in bodies that might not
always feel like their storiesare welcome, in certain spaces.
So anyway, I just, it was justsomething I was thinking about.
And I just happen to have afriend who is a philosopher and
(13:50):
a feminist philosopher of thebody, and it was literally just
a casual conversation where it'slike, oh, I have an ethical
question. And she, she just wasreally interested in it. And,
you know, it's like, what do youteach? What is it called? The
natural voice is like, we'vekind of like I know, Annie, we
got rid of the word natural andfeminist theory, like 30 years
(14:12):
ago, however, helped me to helpme think through this. And then
so she got interested in it. Sowe really have been co authoring
because there hadn't been a lotof feminist theory about the
voice there's been a ton ofstuff about the body and you
know, generally, but but notabout the voice as a part of the
body and how voices are receivedbeing really theorized from that
(14:34):
point of view. So so we both hadlike a gap to fill in terms of
me rethinking and her alsodelving into a different area.
So we just started to readeverything we could about this
topic, and I was just so happyto have you know, a project of
this type where I really got tothink deeply into what I do and
not just take things for grantedthat you know, just take for
(14:56):
granted that what what we do istheater or trainers is
implicitly benign, because it'snot true. You know, we have to
think about where these thingscome from. And I don't think
that had been thought aboutenough. And anyway, we ended up
having enough material over acouple of years that we felt we
had, we could we could actuallyput together a book. And so we
(15:16):
did and came out this fall and,and we're still, it's like,
every time we're asked to talkabout it, or think about it, we
really literally have to rereadit, because it's like, what did
we write? Like, what might haveyou say, Oh, that was good
point, you know? A good bit.
(15:37):
Yeah. But it's been super bigchallenge for me, because I'm
not a philosopher, because I didnot, you know, I don't even
think of myself as an academicreally, but I had to wear that
hat. So I felt like I got thiswonderful is almost like I was a
graduate student with this,like, Master professor for seven
years who took me under herwing. And, you know, and she had
(15:57):
to fill in gaps in herunderstanding to but that was a
gift to having something likethat to work on was a gift. So
I'm looking for the next, thenext thing, and I'm not sure
it's, it's, it's an academicthing.
Tara Beckett (16:07):
That's really cool.
Christine Hamel (16:09):
I love it. So yeah, I didn't really get into
the identity and injustice part.
But, you know, let me just saythat real quick, I guess. Yeah.
You know, the idea that I think,as you know, in theater
training, we often talk aboutbodies as neutral, you know, or
that they're, like, you know,sort of, I don't know, thinking
about ways that we we you sortof have habitual ways of being
(16:30):
that sometimes are reallyimpacted by society in various
ways. But anyway, with thevoice, we often use the word
natural, as I mentioned, so, soour whole premise is just that
our voices can't exist outsideof culture, and they can't exist
outside of politics and, and,you know, they're filled with
(16:51):
identity, and that's a reallygood thing. And so, so it's just
I just to even conceptualizestripping the voice of markers
of identity, like your, youknow, whatever it is your race
and class or ethnicity, or, orgender. And to get to something
neutral or natural underneathcan do real harm. That idea that
there's something underneaththat's on gendered or unclasped,
(17:13):
or whatever it is, not thatwe're stuck in any of those
things are those things can'tchange, or don't change all the
time. But anyway, it's reallyfundamentally shifted my
thinking about what a race evenis, and what it does, and how
it's really important in how weparticipate in relationships and
social life.
Tara Beckett (17:45):
So, as you are going through this sort of
disintegration that you're in atthis point, can you talk to us
about any breaking points thathave been formed? Maybe where
you want to go?
Christine Hamel (18:04):
Yeah, yeah. I think I had, like, What can I
say, and not get into trouble?
So no, I did have recent, arecent breaking point, I have
actually this wonderfulopportunity to step away from,
from my own university locallyfor a few weeks this spring, and
just be I was a guest artist atanother university. And so it
(18:25):
was just an interesting time tokind of step back from just the
ways in which myinstitutionalized brain had been
working and, and I ended uphaving a kind of difficult
conversation at one point withreally my boss here at an at
Boston University. And, and Ihad just this this moment of
(18:47):
feeling like, my values were notnecessarily aligning with, with
some institutional values aroundlike, what prestige looks like
or what what having a meaningfullife and a meaningful career
actually looks like. And it wasaround something very, rather
stupid, you know, I don't even Ican't even really get into what
(19:11):
it is, but it's about reallywhat I feel are like, arbitrary
markers of success. It's a kindof thing, you know, which, which
keeps me off of Facebook as muchas possible, which is like,
looking at other people's livesand thinking, Oh, that looks
like success that looks likethey've lived a successful life.
And I think universities andinstitutions that have that
(19:33):
where their reputation hinges oncertain markers of success, that
really don't have a lot ofbearing on values around
teaching or, or even even like asignificant like contribution to
the field. There's just certainthings that I feel like are
(19:53):
really arbitrary. That just mademe feel like for the first time
in a long time, I felt like I Idon't have to justify that, you
know, or I don't have to getbehind that. In fact, I could
step away from that and say youactually know that that doesn't
align, and that's okay. Or Icould still keep a relationship
with that and know that thatdoesn't align. And I'm, that's,
(20:15):
you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonnajust know that for myself. It
felt like I had this real momentof clarity, which was like, I
don't have to pretend that italigns to pretend. Yeah. And
what I want to do about that,I'm not sure but it but it
really was like, something shookloose. And I was like, oh, no,
that's just not me. That is justnot me. And my Miss fitting, you
(20:39):
know, with myself or whateverthe expectations are. Felt like,
oh, no, it's okay. It's a lossto give up a certain idea of
like, who I think I should be,or who I'm being asked to be,
you know, in that kind ofinstitution. I hope I'm not
being too vague. But I just, youknow, I know what it's like to
work for an institution,essentially. Yeah.
Tara Beckett (21:02):
Yeah, I mean, I'm putting that into my own life.
And, you know, we could insert Ithink many different things into
your story. Without thespecifics of sometimes I felt
like the choice was between walkaway, or completely become this
other thing that isn't, isn'tme. Right. And I think we just
(21:23):
spoke to is that middle ground,right, you actually have a
choice to just acknowledge it,live with it. And know it's not
for you. Which is, it feels likethat's an empowering stance in
and of itself.
Christine Hamel (21:36):
Yes, I thank you for for saying it like that.
Because that is, I think, Ithink it is empowering to know,
like, that's not me. That's not.
And maybe that's that feeling ofwanting certain things to fall
away, you know, which is like,I, maybe it's this, I don't
know, something about settingboundaries, something about
saying like, I don't have toidentify with that. I could step
(21:57):
away if I wanted to, and beokay, that it's better. No,
maybe just this image I have isalmost like, better. No. It's
like, flowery. But you know,like the idea of petals falling
off. But what's left is likeit's got is the core. And I
think I've been holding, youknow, a lot of these petals
(22:18):
holding me up for a long time.
And it's like, actually, youknow, and that's what I learned
about going somewhere else forsix weeks, which was like, Oh, I
carry with me who I am. And it'snot related to my positionality.
In institution or place. Yeah.
Well, it's
Tara Beckett (22:35):
interesting. You got that clarity by going to
another institution, right. Soyeah, that clarity didn't come
because you completely extractedyourself from your whole being
right. It's interesting thatyou're like, wait a second, if I
want to participate in aninstitution. It's not just this
one that could that would wantme or hold me, right. There are
(22:56):
other options into the world.
And I just love how you'retalking about how things are not
these finite, hard black andwhite choices.
Christine Hamel (23:05):
Yes. And I think sometimes that feeling
that there are finite, hardenedBlack and White has put me in
significant crisis in my in mylife, and it's now feeling like,
you know, maybe not, maybe,maybe it's okay to have these
like these day to daynegotiations matter. And they
add up and take some take somebravery. Realize that, you know,
(23:34):
yeah, yeah. There's a lot offear that comes with changing
anything. You know, yeah. How Iinteract with something.
Tara Beckett (23:41):
Like it. Yeah. And to be really clear with
yourself, maybe of, if you letit fall away, and you're in
something else, there'll bethings about that, that maybe
don't totally align, but you'rewilling to take it right. That's
right. There isn't a perfectlanding point.
Christine Hamel (23:59):
Exactly, exactly. It's interesting, too,
because there are a lot ofpeople I mean, the great
resignation, obviously, the timewent and I'm seeing in academia
a lot where people are just likeI'm done with institutions and
done with them. And I feel likewell, yeah, I get that and maybe
that will be maybe that will bea path but I want to go down
maybe thought about itseriously, but I don't know that
(24:22):
it's that simple. You know, Idon't know because I think we're
always trying to create thingsand structures and it's just
like which structure is actuallygoing to allow me to feel whole
and human and really centercenter well being you know,
that's like the new nothing newbut it's the primary focus at
this point. Why why do anythingif it's if it makes me feel bad
Tara Beckett (24:49):
you know, when you were talking with me about
trying to make space for change,but that you were managing some
intense Heather's gonna talk alittle bit about that.
Christine Hamel (25:04):
Oh gosh. Yeah, well, these intense tethers to
which I think I was referringare a real sense of obligation
and responsibility to otherpeople. You know, I think if I,
it's interesting, there's acolleague who is in the UK, and
(25:25):
there are some freedoms that hehas there who just made this
really big switch from being atheatre person and voice trainer
and is doing something reallydifferent, just like decided
done with that, I'm moving tothis other thing. And, you know,
I think it's really a differentsituation, if you have health
care, you know, like, there'snational health care, and if you
don't have a child, and thereare ways in which the tether of
(25:48):
just like wanting to support myfamily, my kid is, you know,
going to be applying to college.
And for years, you know, thereare things where it's like, I
wish I had certain kinds offreedom to to make more radical
changes at this point, and itmay just be a delay, or it may
just be smaller changes that youknow, that I have oriented
myself differently. And then thetethered to, you know, I've put
(26:10):
a lot of time and care intotrying to build a work situation
or, you know, in a program in away that I care about, you know,
and that I want to nourish, andI want to leave the campsite
better than I found it. Andcertainly, yeah, that feels
like, it's an institutionaltether, but it's like, wanting
(26:31):
to, to keep providing, I don'tknow, support and care for
students and, and all the thingsthat feel really strong to me. I
think, you know, so first, firstand foremost, though, it's,
it's, it's a, it's real, thatwhen you have a family, and
there's another, there's a childinvolved, it does, it does
(26:53):
change, for me has changed myfeeling of that feeling of in my
20s of being able to sort of tryon a lot of different things.
It's not it's harder now.
Absolutely. But I do have atremendous sort of, you know,
envy for that feeling of Iactually, I'm going to switch
now I'm going to do somethingnew, but I feel like I'm having
(27:15):
a lot of conversations withpeople who are about my age, who
are really wondering, Am I tooold to to learn something new
and do something new? Is it oris this the time? You know, is
this Yeah, I'm to do it before Iuse it, you know, without having
to wait until retirement? Right.
Like closer?
Tara Beckett (27:35):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, you know, when you're
talking about this, hopefullyyou have the second half of your
life that you're at the midYeah. But I think the pandemic
and being in my 40s, that combowas just like, hang on. If I
write my eulogy right now, Iwant it to say some things that
(27:58):
I really want it to say. So whatis Yeah,
Christine Hamel (28:01):
that's exactly right, Tara. That's exactly
right. And it may not be for me,I'm realizing it may not have to
do with like, you know, legacyor impact, or maybe some of the
things that I would have beenthinking about when I was much
younger, it's more about did Iget a chance to try this thing?
Did I get a chance to take adeep dive into that aspect of
(28:22):
life that that I found reallydeeply meaningful or joyful? And
did I do enough? Did I doenough? Good, you know, did I do
enough to alleviate suffering?
Did I do enough to care forothers? That's sort of something
I care about, suddenly much morethan sort of arbitrary notions
(28:43):
of success and, and prestigethat are again, often
institutional values that I feelmyself out of alignment with,
you know, yeah.
Tara Beckett (28:56):
And I think we get I mean, I'm gonna say for
myself, I get lost in the day today really quickly, can sort of
lose my compass of some thingsthat I want to be doing. So
absolutely constant check in oflike, where are we at?
Christine Hamel (29:12):
It's so frustrating. That compass is
like, I love you know, I feellike I've had a couple of really
clear moments in the last youknow, four weeks, like, I know,
I know how to orient my compassand then something like that go.
It's elusive. I feel like Ishould know how to orient by
now. But then it's broken. It'sbroken.
Tara Beckett (29:44):
You are a parent, your mother and I would just
love for you to talk about whatuh, what joys Do you have? Being
a parent and then maybe what isyour greatest fear?
Christine Hamel (29:55):
Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. Thank you. But Joe, I
mean, it's all pretty joyful.
Like I love being a parent,it's, it's the great joy of my
life. And we really is. I don'tregret it for a second I maybe
regret like, we only had one,you know, and then that's but
but listen, this kid, we'reblessed, you know, I feel so
(30:16):
lucky, this particular childand, and I, one of the things I,
I love at this stage, you know,I've loved every stage, but I
really like because they're 13now is just how full of
personality they are. They're sofully who they are. But also
like, how much they are alsolike me. We get to, I mean, it's
(30:38):
almost like it's bizarre. It'slike having my little it's
having like a sibling aroundsometimes now too, which is just
so fun. You know? And yeah, ofcourse, of course is the parent
parental child relationshipthere. But like, we just have so
much fun. You know, it's, it'sawesome, you get to be silly, we
get to, you know, behave poorly,we get teased my spouse, I mean,
(31:01):
it's just like, mischievous fun.
And that is truly like, I justadore that. And I also love
seeing them become who they arethat so unlike who either myself
and my spouse are, you know thatthey have this other? I mean,
other qualities that I just werejust like, where did that come
(31:22):
from, you know that. And I seein there, they're a dancer. And
so when they dance in certainways, we're just like, mystified
by it blown away, by just howconnected they are. So what's
the second one of my fears? Oh,gosh, I mean, as a trans kid,
(31:44):
they are someone that we are, Imean, absolutely terrified about
the world right now, you know,absolutely terrified about
what's going on with anti trans,you know, sentiment and
legislation. And it's justunbelievably, it's stupefying
how, how, you know, I mean, welive in this, like, fairly
(32:06):
liberal community, but even thiscommunity is not, it's not
progressive in the ways that,you know, it's, there's no,
there's no, there's no spacethat's going to feel safe in
certain ways. And it's justabout, you know, wanting to help
orient our kids so that theythat they feel they can handle
(32:27):
various situations, and alsoprotects them from some of those
as well in you know, in a in alife or death kind of way. And
also to try to alleviate themfrom having to feel like they
have to be the spokesperson forevery single LG LGBTQ person in
their school. And there's a lotof like, stress and anxiety that
(32:51):
comes from that. And so, they'reall of these things that are
coming up that even when theycame out, when they were, you
know, in fifth grade, aroundbeing non binary, it felt sort
of that was sort of manageable,and it was happening during the
pandemic. And it felt like wewere, you know, people were
shifting pronouns easily, it wassplit, there was a lot of
(33:12):
support, but, but the worldkeeps changing, and they are
getting older, and it's all ofthis stuff around wanting to
keep them happy and safe, arejust fundamental and do feel
like, could be life or deathissues. So that's, that's what
terrifies me the most. Yeah.
And,
Tara Beckett (33:32):
you know, I guess I would love to know, like, that
world that seems or is not evenseems, is so threatening to a
trans child. What do you wishthe world would know about them?
Christine Hamel (33:47):
Yeah, I think I think what I'm hearing from, you
know, even some of the mostbenign, you know, peers of our
kid, you know, this is sort ofan example of it, the idea that,
you know, that it's like, beingtrans is trendy, or it's just a
way of like getting attention,or, you know, all of these
(34:07):
things that sort of feel likeearmarks for not wanting to take
that identity seriously, youknow, that I think most of the
time, I think what I would likepeople to know is that it's
really their issue if they can'tinterpret or understand gender
diversity, you know, and thatour kid even if they are in a
(34:30):
process of becoming, oriterating, who they are going to
be they also are they knowthemselves, you know, like, they
know what they need to be theyget it. It may not be fully
defined, but their inner being aprocess that feels good and
whole, and that the way you maybe receiving our kid is really
(34:51):
your own issue to work out. Thatit's, yeah, that it's, it's not
for you to decide whether or notit's a valuable identity to have
Tara Beckett (35:00):
Yes. And, you know, we were talking about how
when we both became parents, ourwhole job felt like just stay
alive and your goodly firstyear, it's so easy stay alive,
it's
Christine Hamel (35:19):
all we got to do is keep you alive that first
year. me really. I know thatfirst year is like, so hard. But
it also was so simple, you know,in a way, I enjoyed how it was
simple. It was like, meet yourneeds, meet your needs, meet
your needs. And somehow thatgets harder, you know, just the
simplicity of having someone'sneeds met?
Tara Beckett (35:42):
And do you have any advice that you'd give
people who want to be or whowant to become parents?
Christine Hamel (35:50):
Yeah, I mean, I, part of me, of course, feels
like, who am I to give advice toanyone about that at all, and
everyone's situation is sodifferent. But I will say I was
thinking about this a little bitin terms of readiness, you know,
and just like that thing with,what what I want the world to
know about, about my kid is thatthey know, they know who they
(36:12):
are. And I think he, I think Ialmost took some really bad
advice from, you know, a mentalhealth counselor, actually,
about my readiness to be aparent. And, you know, in my, my
openness, my vulnerability,wanting to, to really be careful
about that, but also feelingthis, like, you know, talk about
(36:33):
that. That compass, I sort ofknew that I was getting bad
advice. And I knew that I was,we were really ready in
significant ways, like,emotionally ready, mentally
ready, and I'm really glad Ididn't heed the advice to hold
off, you know, that I so anyway,my advice is don't don't listen
(36:54):
to anyone to tell you thatyou're ready or not to have to
build a family because, youknow, you'll know, or, or trust,
you know, trust that, you know,it's no one's job to decide for
you, you know, anyway, I'mreally glad that I, that we just
did what felt right. So that's,that's the marrow of your bones
feeling? No, no, actually. No,I'm good.
Tara Beckett (37:32):
And I was cracking up, because when I read the
question I asked about, youknow, what would you tell your
18 year old self? I was like,oh, Christine, I think we're
related.
It was something aboutI don't remember if there's
something about like, I don'tknow, have more sex. I was like,
Yeah, I was really square, youknow, and I kind of, and
(37:56):
something, you said something tothe effect of just like, you
know, knowing, believing thatit's all going to be okay, that
like, you're okay, it's going tobe okay, you know, yeah,
Christine Hamel (38:08):
yeah, yeah. I think I wasn't I, for me, it was
less about being square, becauseinwardly I'm not at all. But I
was shy, you know, and I didn'ttake as many risks around like,
building, you know, I think Icame out of college with all
these built in communities as anintrovert that I really relied
on, and that I felt really castout into the open sea as my
(38:29):
early 20s, and was shy aboutcreating new relationships,
including, you know, romanticrelationships or sexual
relationships. And I, I kind of,of course, look back, like, what
was the problem? are so capable?
You know, of course, they didit, but like, but I could have,
I feel like I could have beenbraver and I've always
appreciated when people havereached out to me and I've took
(38:51):
me a long time to acknowledgethat they're vulnerable to you.
I'm not the only vulnerableperson, you know, I'm not so
anyway, so there was that butthen thinking about, you know,
that oh, just that that anxietyI had about how am I going to
make my life work? I know, Idon't have enough time, there
isn't enough time or I or I'mtoo afraid of failure, whatever
(39:12):
it is. I would love for my 18year old self to know like, oh,
no, you're gonna you're gonnahit all those things, you're
gonna get to all those things,you know, and even when you're,
you know, 1448 you're stillthinking about, Okay, well, I'll
fit that in before I know hopewith some grace and good health
and, you know, luck that thereis time, you know, in a way
(39:34):
there is time. But, and it'spossible to get to get to it
all.
Tara Beckett (39:43):
And now, as a woman who's 48 When you're your
best self, what does it looklike?
Dancing wildly in the streets.
Christine Hamel (39:57):
Kinda I think I'm one of my best self is
funny. I was thinking this wholepodcast terror like I seem, I
feel like I can default to beingso formal or so like, the in
charge or something, you know,but I think my best self is when
I'm, you know, letting myself beneedy or needful, you know,
(40:21):
relying in a good way, like athome, you know, my best self is
usually here at home. It's alsomy worst self in a way, where
I'm just I can rage and be like,you know, irritable, and like,
full of whatever that I that Isometimes get. It's
compartmentalized way. But Ithink my best self is honestly
when I'm clowning when I'm notnot theatrical, theatrical
(40:42):
clouding, but also like with my13 year old, where I get to be a
13 year old, or we get to beplayful, where I get to be
impulsive. And we're nothing,you know, like, all this stuff
falls away. That's, that feelslike life or death when you
know, like, just the ability toroll with, you know, whatever's
happening in a way. But I that'salso when I'm experiencing the
(41:03):
most joy. So when it's all justlike rolling around in the
floor.
Tara Beckett (41:08):
All of a sudden, I have this image of find a
videographer and make a silentfilm with your child. I love you
amazing. Amazing. Like no words,you, you know, with your child
doing these movies, and just itwould be an incredible film. So
Christine Hamel (41:27):
funny, because we actually, in the early part
of the pandemic, there was atheater who asked us to do a
little promo video for there.
And then they did they ended upnot doing anything in this
project at all. But but thepoint is, my spouse and I were
being very, like, uptight andformal. And we asked our art at
the time, I don't know, 10 yearold to start, like being
(41:50):
irritating in the background.
Like we created this home. Andthey were like cartwheeling,
they were dancing. They wereplaying their violin, and it was
this whole clowning routine. Wecame up with them anyway. I
think. I think beer impulse isgreat, because I would love to.
Tara Beckett (42:07):
Yeah, it would just be it'd be brilliant. I
know your child, it would beamazing. Yes, so project, write
a book, write a one person playdo a film with your child. I
think we've got a list here.
Christine Hamel (42:23):
Things to look forward to Yes.
Tara Beckett (42:36):
Christina, this has been amazing. I'm so glad
you came on. And just before wesign off, I would love for you
to speak to what let perfectburn means to you or brings up
for you.
Christine Hamel (42:47):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because I was
saying to you earlier, Tara,that I felt like I don't belong
in this podcast, because I'm sopreoccupied with perfection in a
way, you know. And it's like,what, what can I have nothing to
say on that front, except thatI'm in the middle of it. But I
think you know, for me, I can'teven remember what I what I
(43:09):
wrote. You know, when you askedme that question the first time,
but it's just oh, I don't know.
I think it's like, I think maybeat this point, it has a lot to
do with grieving, letting thingsgo. allowing myself to lose what
I had and letting something newbe born. You know, I think
that's that's probably what it'slike a little bit Phoenix. Like,
(43:31):
I think that sense, you know,it's like, Why hold on life. You
know, there just isn't thereisn't time for that. There's
time for other things, but notfor that.
Tara Beckett (43:41):
I love it. Thank you. I totally did.
Thank you so much for beinghere. And Christine. Take care
and we'll be in touch. Thankyou. Thanks so much. This was
fun. Bye. All right. Perfect.
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