March 23, 2022 • 43 mins
In honor of National Suicide Prevention Month, I sit down with Liz Sweigart, an Award-Winning Mental Health Advocate, former PwC Partner, Author, Keynote Speaker, Advisor, Coach and Adjunct Professor. Liz understands to her core that the only way to save lives and to improve the lives of those suffering with their mental health is to speak truth without shame. “Until we put our voices together, we’re all just individually shouting into the void. But when we come together, that’s when I think we galvanize. We give people hope.”
Liz walks us through her journey with depression starting as a teenager. “I experienced depression like this heaviness, inertia, and this complete disconnection from the world. It was like watching somebody else live my life and not having any sense of connection to myself or others.” Incredibly intelligent, Liz masked the severity of her depression as an adult through perfectionism and her ability to put together a high achieving persona. Eventually, Liz couldn’t fight her depression anymore. “I felt I was disappointing everybody at home. If I was at home, I was disappointing everybody at work. And no matter where I was, I was a disappointment to myself. And that was when I set the plans in motion to end my life. And I am really fortunate that did not happen. I have a wonderful life partner. My husband was there when I needed him. And somehow, I found enough of the words, and he was able to quickly put together what was going on and so I am here.”
Inpatient treatment was incredibly important for Liz to reset her body and mind and to keep her safe. But she is so clear that maintaining her mental health is a journey and that in order to continue on, she had to accept that there were no easy happy endings. That the work would be sitting in moments of discomfort and being able to tolerate them before they became crisis. “I can sit in these moments of discomfort, they will end, I can get through them. And on the other side, I will feel better. And right now, this sucks. It’s like, yes, the sun will come out and right now, it is raining. So no, it is not sunny. It is not sunny at the moment. The sun is still going to come out. Two things are true. Like the sun will come out and right now is awful.”
Highlights from Liz:
“I like to say, I have a beautiful mind and a jerk brain. My mind does beautiful things. And at the same time, my brain has tried to sabotage me more times than I can count.”
“I convinced myself that I could like eat, pray love my way out of this. Like I was going to be fine. It would take 12 weeks. All I have to do is get off all of these medications and I'll be fine. So I worked with a therapist and a psychiatrist and I got off all my medications and three weeks later I realized that I wasn't actually getting better. I needed the medication that I needed and that was a crushing blow to me because I felt like I'd failed.”
“I can do hard things. I know I can do hard things. I have done hard things before. I can do hard things again.”
Don't Miss a Beat.
Follow my Instagram for news from me, Tara Beckett:
https://www.instagram.com/letperfectburn/
And my Website:
https://letperfectburn/
Liz’s Website:
https://lizsweigart.com/contact
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tara Beckett (00:22):
Hi, I'm Tara Beckett, and I want to welcome
you back to Season Two of letperfect burn. It's September,
which means it's NationalSuicide Prevention Awareness
Month. And to honor this month,my guest today is Liz Swaggart,
(00:43):
an award winning mental healthadvocate, who is also an author,
keynote speaker, former Big Fourpartner at PWC. As well as many
other professional roles. Lizhas battled depression since her
teens, and almost four yearsago, made plans to end her life.
Liz tells us, I have a beautifulmind and a jerk brain. I hope
(01:08):
her candid interview can givelight and hope to all who are
suffering not only this month,but always, as Liz tells us.
Until we put our voicestogether. We're all just
individually shouting into thevoid. When we come together,
that's when I think we galvanizeand we give people hope.
(01:38):
Hello, everybody, welcome back.
I'm Tara Beckett, and you'relistening to let perfect Burton.
And today I'm so excited to havein studio, Liz swagger. And Liz
got her undergrad and history.
She loves school. So she went onto get her MBA and operations
and supply chain management. Andthen she got her PhD in
(01:59):
psychology, where she focuses onleaders and leadership. Liz
spent 20 years in business sixas a partner in the big four.
And then she took a major pivot.
She was the co founder of a techstartup on a mission to empower
young people to be safer onlineby helping them make better
decisions. She's very publicabout her mental health journey.
(02:20):
And now she is a mental healthadvocate. Liz, thank you so much
for being here. I'm so excitedto speak to you.
Unknown (02:28):
It is my absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for
having me.
Tara Beckett (02:33):
So, Liz, I think to start I would love to hear
what are you where and what washappening in November of 2019.
Unknown (02:45):
Oh, 2019 November.
It's, it's really baffling to methat that was like three years
ago next month. Because it justfeels so immediate. Like it just
in some ways it feels like itwas yesterday. And in other ways
it feels like truly a lifetimeago. In 2019, in November, I
became suicidal. And Iexperienced the the rock bottom
(03:10):
of the worst major depressiveepisode of my life. And I've
been sort of navigatingdepression since I was about 16
years old. So I grew up in NewYork City. So having a therapist
as a 16 year old is kind of likeyou know, a requirement. And I
remember my therapist like wewere like, I remember we are
(03:30):
we're in the brownstone, mytherapist was in a brownstone.
And I remember my therapistsaying to my mom that I probably
had clinical depression. But forsome reason that I cannot recall
now, like I wasn't formallydiagnosed I was I certainly
wasn't put on medication, whichmakes sense. I mean, I'm 16
years old. But that was kind ofmy first data point of like, Oh,
(03:54):
something is going on in myhead. So I got to college. I
moved to Houston, I went to RiceUniversity go ALS. And as an as
an 18 year old I came face toface with my first like major
depressive episode as an adult.
(04:16):
And for me depression, thesemajor depressive episodes, they
don't look like Hallmark orLifetime movies. Like there's
not like a lot of like, lying onon couches with well placed
cushions like crying into a boxof Kleenex. No, no like that's
(04:37):
just it's not it. I feelnothing. Absolutely nothing. And
it's the struggle to feelcombined with this crushing
sense of failure that I do inthis place. Because everybody
else is normal. I am broken. Iwill never be okay. I will I
(04:59):
will never come out of this. Andlike, it's this. It's like the
heaviest weighted blanket youcan imagine. It's just this
heaviness that sits on me. Andwhen I describe not being able
to get out of bed people aren'tBut literally, you just put your
feet on, like you just roll outof bed. And I'm like, imagine
(05:19):
feeling that you are, you areunder such a heavy weight that
it is, it is literallyimpossible to move out from
underneath it. Yes. And that'show so that's how I've
experienced depression. It'sthis heaviness, inertia, and
this complete disconnection fromthe world. It's like watching
(05:41):
somebody else live my life, andnot having any sense of
connection to myself or others,or more over a desire to. So I
sort of lived with depression,my whole adult life. So like,
from the time I was 18, to thetime that this major depressive
(06:04):
episode that really like took meto rock bottom happened, like I
would go through like, weeks,months, even years of like being
fine. Yes. And then depression,like hiding right there on the
fringes, comes crashing down.
And I figured out like, okay, Ican keep my life going, I can
keep this like poppin careergoing, I don't have time to stop
(06:24):
for therapy, right, like, soI'll just I can go to like one
of these sort of like clinics, Ican I can get medication when I
need it. And I can just pushthrough, because I'm strong and
determined and sheer force ofpersonality. And that is not
really a thing. So I got to likeSeptember, October of 2018. And
(06:45):
I started to feel the slide intomajor depression. And for me,
that looks like stopping selfcare. Like, I don't do my
laundry. Like that's the leadingindicator, my mental health is
like my laundry, and workingout. And eating well, like, the
things that you do because youlove yourself, and you want to
take good care of yourself. Soyou can be there for those you
(07:06):
love. And that just all fellaway. And I went on this sort of
rinse and repeat cycle wherelike every two to three months,
I would go back to like theclinic I went to I saw a
different doctor every time,right, and I would just up my
medication and up my medicationand up my medication. I got to
June 2019, I was on the max doseof three different medications.
(07:32):
One of one of which was like, Iwas an off label prescription
for like as like a moodstabilizer and had some really
horrific side effects that hedidn't understand. And so I get
to June 2019, and I am losing myshort term memory. I'm losing my
I'm losing my ability to putsentences together. I am I am. I
(07:54):
am falling apart. I am sodysfunctional. I was the
physical symptoms that weremanifesting. Were just at one
point, I went to the doctorbecause I thought that I mean, I
was I was having symptoms thatare associated with some really
awful physical diseases. But allof my tests were normal. So and
(08:18):
of course, it never occurred tome to say, oh, yeah, and all of
these medications that I'm on.
And so I just I got to thispoint, it was the week before
Thanksgiving, 2019. And Irealized, like, my, my kids were
gonna see that, like, I didn'twant to be with them. Like I
(08:40):
didn't want to be around thembecause I couldn't relate to
them, like, kids are really goodat knowing when the adults
around them are disinterestedand disconnected. My greatest
fear is that my children wouldthink it was because I didn't
love them. Rather than because Ihad no idea like I couldn't, my
mind couldn't be present in anymoments, because there was
(09:02):
absolutely no feeling. And it itmade sense to me at the time.
Like I I remember the logic ofit, that everyone around me
would be better off if I wasn'there. Because no matter where I
was, if I was at work, I wasdisappointing everybody at home.
(09:23):
If I was at home, I wasdisappointing everybody at work.
And no matter where I was, I wasa disappointment to myself. And
that was that was when I set theplans in motion to end my life
and I am really fortunate thatthat did not happen. I have a
wonderful I have a wonderfullife partner. My My husband was
(09:45):
there when I needed him. Andsomehow I found enough of the
words and he he and he was ableto quickly put together what was
going on? Yes. And so I am so Iam here. But the outcome of that
was that I, I was just I was Iwas just kind of done with
(10:09):
everything because it just feltlike I am in this hole, I will
never get out of it in nomatter, it will not never get
better recovery isn't possible.
All of the things I know now tonot be true and that I'm on this
like mission to tell others youyou are not alone. Hope is
(10:29):
warranted, like recovery ispossible. But in that moment,
none of that none of that wastrue for me. And it took a very,
very hard life reset. In fact,it took me stepping away from my
job for a year or two to getwell. And again, looking back
(10:49):
like I can't believe that wasthree years ago. And at the same
time, I feel like if I sort ofreach out, I can still touch
that time.
Tara Beckett (11:03):
Yeah. Sorry, Liz, I'm having a moment. It's just
really difficult. Like you'reone of the first people again,
like I was hospitalized a yearago. So it yeah, like I can
understand it feels really faraway. And then it feels like oh,
I just did that yesterday. Butyou're speaking to the
experience in such a way that isso candid, that I just want to
(11:26):
hear more people like you.
Because it is still very silent.
And how helpful it would havebeen for me to hear your voice
before, you know, last year forme. So I love what you're doing
already. I know we're not at theinterview. Just how powerful
(11:47):
that is. Thank you.
Unknown (11:49):
And thank you for being so bold in in sharing your own
experience. Because you're rightuntil we put our voices
together. We're all justindividually shouting into the
void. But when we come to whenwe come together, that's when I
think we galvanize, we givepeople hope. And so I am so
(12:14):
appreciative in all of whatyou're doing. Just just to
center and amplify the voices ofpeople who've had the shared
experience. And it is it thereare dimensions of it that we
find resonant with each other.
And then there are things thatare just uniquely personal to
each of us. Yep. And it's reallylike, this is not the Olympics
(12:38):
of suffering. So it's, it's nota it's not a competition. But to
quote the Kaiser Chiefs, it'snot a competition, but I'm
winning. It's one of thosethings, though, right? Where I
think the especially when youlook at sort of social media and
Instagram and things like that,like somehow it almost becomes
(13:00):
this like competition for somefolks. And I think what I love
what you're doing here, but I dothink that as as we just create
space for people to share theirown experiences, to hear from
others to find those points ofresonance, and then to respect
the differences in ourexperiences. Sure. Because what
(13:23):
we each experience, that was ourreality, that was completely
valid for us. And others may notexperience depression the same
way I did. My experience will bedifferent from theirs. And we
are we are still part of thiscommunity. That as I like to say
(13:43):
I have a I have a beautiful mindand a jerk brain. I love that we
live in this space, right? Likethere's occasionally it feels
like there's these two competingfactions in our heads, right?
Like, my mind is my mind doesbeautiful things. And I know
(14:03):
that I mean, you mentioned Ilove school, right? Like I've
I've had this incredibleopportunity to like, think and
do really cool things. And atthe same time my brain has tried
to sabotage me more times than Ican count.
(14:33):
When you say help, that's that'ssuch an important it's, it's
it's an important word. It'salso a very broad word,
especially when we talk aboutmental health and well being. I
really love the framework andthe end the program that is
provided by a mental healthfirst aid. International Program
(14:56):
it you know, it's very readilyaccessible here in the United
States. dates. And it reallyjust gives you as an adult these
ways of supporting others whoare going through a mental
health challenge that focuses onhow do we get you to to
(15:17):
professional help? How do we getyou to people who know how to
help. And also it recognizesthat there is no one size fits
all. So what I like is that Ilike I like approaches where
nobody is vilifying ordemonizing talk therapy, or
medication, or, or other orholistic wellness practices like
(15:41):
yoga, and exercise movement asmedicine, sleep, eating well,
there are so many things that gointo our mental health and well
being. And there are so manytools at our disposal, to to
maintain to get mentally healthyto maintain our mental health. I
(16:01):
think that it's so importantthat when we realize that when
we sort of offer help, we're notoffering a one size fits all.
And we are respecting thatdifferent solutions, different
choices will be right fordifferent people at different
stages of their lives. So I haveI have had some really awful
experiences with medication,really awful. And I also know
(16:25):
that medication has helped tosave my life. Right? So it
really has been being able towork with really good
professionals in mental healthwho can iterate with me because
I wish that it was like set itand forget it, but it isn't
(16:45):
mental health is it's iterativeand you keep working through it.
A little digression. I had Iconvinced myself sort of
immediately after I was out ofthe danger zone like not to get
all Kenny Loggins here. Butlike, as soon as I was sort of
out of like the suicide DangerZone, I convinced myself that I
(17:05):
could like Eat, Pray Love my wayout of this, like I was going to
be fine. It would take like 12weeks, all I have to do is get
off all of these medications,and I'll be fine. So I worked
with a therapist and apsychiatrist. And I got off on
the medications. And three weekslater, I realized that I wasn't
actually getting better. Ineeded I needed medication, that
(17:26):
I needed that. And that was acrushing blow to me because I
felt like I'd failed. I was soconvinced that I'd failed. And
then I double failed. Becauseafter I went back on actually
needed to increase the dose.
Yeah, yeah. And that was justlike, oh my gosh, like I am the
worst. Like, I even suck atgetting better from like,
(17:48):
depression. And what I had toget to this point of was like,
why am I why why am I havingthis reaction to a tool to help
like to, like legitimate helpand support? Like, why am I
having why? Why is it that Ihave internalized our societal
(18:09):
view of mental health as acharacter flaw? This? No. And I
think when I was able to kind ofreject that. I just, I was like,
You know what, this is what thisis what is helping me to be me
at my best right now. And so Iam going to do that. But again,
(18:32):
in society, like, we don't getmad at like, like nobody, nobody
is ever going to say to somebodywith diabetes. You know, if your
pancreas just tried harder,totally, like really? 100%.
Like, if you really if you werejust a better person, your body
could process sugarappropriately, like to no really
(18:54):
no, like, here's insulin. Oh,look, it works. And that's the
thing. It's like, this is like amalfunctioning pancreas is not a
character flaw. Just as whateveris happening between my brain
and my mind is not a reflectionon my worth as a human being.
And so I have tools. I havetechniques, I have support I
(19:17):
have I have professional helpthat I can bring to bear on my
mental health to be the best meI can. So I'm going to do that.
Yeah,
Tara Beckett (19:29):
yeah. I mean, I completely agree. And I also
just tried to honor the factthat it still really bothers me.
Like, there's something aboutwhen I have to do the strip,
like I have a like a flick. Youknow, pillbox? When I'm taking
them regular, I'm good. And thenthere's something about
refilling them, that I can seethem all and I'm just like, What
(19:50):
the hell is happening? Who thehell are you that this is your
life, and you're on way morethan you were when you were
hospitalized? What the hell? Andthen it's like That's not nice,
that's not fair that you are notbeing kind to yourself, and what
is that going to do. And this ismaking you be able to do things
like your podcast, write yourbook, be with friends, like, be
(20:12):
present with your children justknock it off.
Unknown (20:16):
It's a hard message, right? Like, it's a hard message
to deliver to ourselves because,and I, you know, not to not to
circle back too hard to thetheme of the podcast. But as
somebody who used perfectionismas a weapon to attempt to fight
depression, like, I thought thatI could perfection my way out of
(20:40):
depression. I mean, I thought Icould perfection my way out of a
lot of things in life. Same, butit was, it was like, if I if I
just set up because what whatperfectionism gave me was an
incredibly rigid framework thatthat substituted for the that
(21:02):
while stood in for the lack ofcontrol I felt in my life,
because like, I feel, I feelpowerless over what's happening
in my mind. So what I am goingto do is adopt this incredibly
rigid structure for how I'mgoing to do things. And so if I
am perfect, if I if I just doeverything exactly right, then
(21:24):
somehow, I will have control.
And these other things that aregoing on will miraculously be
defeated, which is alsocompletely not true. So it's
like, okay, well, if I if I hitall of like, and for me, it's
compounded by the fact that Ihave OCD, which I found out
about during my year longrecovery. So obsessive
(21:45):
compulsive disorder is it'ssimilar to depression, it is
horribly misconstrued ormisrepresented in the media. Not
all of us are alike. We're notall neat freaks. We're not monk.
OCD is, is really the experienceof having intrusive thoughts,
(22:05):
like, in other words, thingsthat think she thinks you don't
want occupying your mind.
Because either they'reirrelevant, or they're harmful.
But things are thoughts. Youjust like they don't belong in
your head at that time. And theyjust plant themselves. They're
like, they're like squatters,right? They just move in. And
(22:29):
then they slowly start takingover to the point that this
intrusive thought becomes anobsession. And it's like a
pressure cooker. So it's bottledup. And so you're pushing this
down again and again, and tryingto contain it, contain it and
contain it. And finally, it getsto a point where the only way
(22:52):
you can relieve this pressure,this tension, this not clinical
anxiety, but this is sort oflike anxiousness is is some is
to act. And that's thecompulsive piece. And how it's
read by others is it's read asimpulsive. And it's like, no,
this is an impulsive, I didn'tjust decide to do this, this has
(23:12):
been bottling up forever, right.
And so when you also have thistendency of having these
intrusive thoughts becomeobsessions that you then have to
act on, I found that it reallycan be this double whammy,
because things that things thatplay so well, to my natural
desire for perfection, becomethese obsessions. So, for
(23:36):
example, things that now andagain, when I say them, they
sound so ridiculous out loud,but in my head, it is like Bible
truth. Steps, I have to get10,000 steps a day, like so the
idea enters my head, that if Idon't hit certain benchmarks,
then something bad is going tohappen. Like I I'm, usually it
(24:01):
goes back to body image, like mymy, so I'm just gonna leave that
there. I don't want to not gettriggering into that. But it
becomes connected to that. Andso I will lose hours at a time
being so focused on Well, I haveto hit this particular metric.
(24:23):
And I have to do this and I haveto do that. Because if I don't,
this overwhelming obsession,this that I have, I can't tamp
it back down. And again, like myneighbors would be like, Wow,
you're really into fitness. AndI'm like, Yeah, that's the
reason that I walk in circlesaround like my little
(24:46):
neighborhood like when I waswhen I was in the process of
recovering. I did a lot ofcircles around the neighborhood.
And it took a lot of work withmy therapist to get past the
point of I'm being so having mylife ruled by these obsessions,
and then these compulsiveactions. So it's it's one of
(25:07):
those things where I think arewe have some of us like we have
these these natural tendenciestoward perfection, or at least
the pursuit of it, we will neverachieve it. And it becomes this
substitute like this stand infor control, which we don't
(25:29):
feel. And rather than learn howto be uncomfortable, and sit in
that learn how to learn how tosit in the discomfort. That's
when the compulsive actions comein. So one of the things that
I've had to work on is learningto keep those thoughts at bay,
(25:49):
keep them from becomingobsessions, and recognize that I
will, there's discomfort that Ihave to sit in, like life is
hard. And there are things thatI have to just sit in. Yes. And
that building that level ofendurance like that, that mental
fortitude. That's a huge part ofmy recovery. And, yeah, it
(26:12):
doesn't come in pill form.
Tara Beckett (26:15):
Right.
Unknown (26:17):
And it's, it's part, it's part of my it's part of
what I do, it's not everything.
Tara Beckett (26:31):
So what would you say is your current challenge?
You know, you're three years outfrom sort of the rock bottom?
Like, what do you feel goodabout today? And what what kind
of keeps keeps you keeps youmoving? Like, needs to have
attention?
Unknown (26:47):
I love that. Um, well, it's just, it's a really
insightful question. So what Iam most attuned to, I'll put it
that I'll phrase it that way.
What I am most mindful or awareof right now is hubris is
because it would be really easyto say, Look at me, I'm great.
(27:12):
Everything's wonderful again,which, by the way, is how I
spent the first 20 years.
Everything's fine. It's, it'scomplacency, right. It's, it's
feeling like, oh, well, I'mdoing so well. I mean, do I
really still need themedication? Like I'm doing so
well, like I do, you know, don'treally need to keep going with
(27:34):
therapy. Like, you know, like,Isn't isn't therapy for when
you're really bad? Like, what doI have to talk to my therapist
about everything's great. It isgetting into a place of thinking
that somehow this is like,there's a destination, there is
not a destination, there arethere are ways there are
(27:55):
waypoints, right? There aremilestones, there are
waystations. Like, there, thereare stops along the journey, but
it's a journey. So for me, it's,it's not letting myself think,
Oh, I'm fine. I don't needanything else. Therapy therapy
(28:16):
is just as much for the goodtimes as it is for the bad
times. Therapy is just as much apreventative health measure, as
it is and a treatment in anacute situation. So I think it's
continuing to approach therapywith the intent of how do I how
(28:41):
do I keep working through mystuff? How do I how do I keep
taking the steps to care for me?
When it kind of feels like, youknow, I think I'm like, aren't I
done with this? By no, like, Ishould be finished? Right? It
was three years ago, like, we'regood. No, no. And, and also,
just, I think it's a corollaryto that is not getting too down
(29:04):
when I have like bad days, oreven a bad week, and like really
trusting myself to put the toolsto work when that happens. And
and recognizing like I have notfailed because of how to bad
day. Like depression is like theperson nobody invited to the
(29:28):
party who doesn't seem to knowthat it's time to leave. So it's
like I guess we're hereit's really funny, I when I look
at like where I've pulledvarious tools, I birth pulled
(29:51):
various tools that I use. One ofthe biggest tools that I have
that I draw on Now, funnilyenough, I learned in a I learned
in a place you wouldn't thinkthat like, mental health and
wellbeing, coping skills wouldbe would be, like, abundant. And
it was actually the pressure ofbeing a partner in the Big Four,
(30:13):
because one of the things I hadto learn was that not everything
that feels like a crisis in themoment it actually a crisis. And
when you're in a very seniorleadership position, you set the
emotional temperature of theroom. Yes. And so if I freaked
(30:35):
out, everybody around me wasgonna freak out. Because when
something went sideways, youcould always you can always
really tell that everybody knewsomething was going sideways,
because all of a sudden, they'dall look at me. Like, look at
me, and they're like, Mommy willsolve this. And, and it's the
thing is that, that I came torealize, like, it was such an
(30:59):
amazing training ground forunderstanding is this and I
would ask, is this a crisis? Andthe answer 99% of the time is
actually no, it's not a crisis.
It's really uncomfortable. It'sgoing to be very unpleasant to
get through it, you know, it'sgonna, it's gonna hurt a little
(31:21):
bit, there's probably going totake a couple, it's probably
going to require some extremehumility. But yeah, not a
crisis. So if it's not a crisis,it's manageable. Like this very
manageable and it is a crimethat 1% of the time, it is a
crisis. You've got you've gotsupport, you've got partners,
you've got people, you are notalone. And being able with my
(31:44):
own mental health to ask myself,Is this a crisis? And then
realizing no, sis, actually,it's not a crisis, right?
Nothing here is fatal or final.
Tara Beckett (31:55):
It just sucks.
Yeah.
Unknown (31:57):
And we're and and I can do hard things. I know I can do
hard things. I have done hardthings before I can do hard
things again. That's, that's,that's been one thing that's
been really valuable for me theother one, and we sort of joked
a little bit about this beforethe pre show. I mentioned sort
(32:18):
of movement as medicine andphysical exercise as a important
element of my overall well beingbut certainly how I helped
manage my mental health. And Ijoked about a peloton. Leader
leaderboard. So my most of my,one of my dearest friends got
(32:39):
got me into peloton with her assort of I was just sort of there
as like, I was sort of heremotional support peddler, she,
she, this was something duringthe pandemic, it was something
she really wanted to do. And shewanted a buddy and that was
like, alright, I'll, you know,go along. And what I discovered
was the was a type of trainingthat professional cyclists have
(33:02):
been doing forever and ever, infact, many professional or just,
you know, advanced athletes havebeen doing where you work, you
work in zones, so on on the bikeyou work in, in zones that are
levels of effort. And the goalis that you establish kind of
like, what is what is yourthreshold? Like for power? Like
(33:24):
what's, what's the thresholdthat you can like, keep at for
like, an hour before you're justlike a puddle on the floor? And
then how do you systematicallywork yourself up to pushing that
threshold higher? Like how doyou? How do you how do you put
in the work to improve, like,your thresholds, your baseline,
your level of fitness. And whatI found out is that that kind of
(33:49):
training involves prolongedperiods in the saddle, in, in,
relatively like, inuncomfortable, but not
impossible levels of effort.
Right. And when I first got intoit, I was just like, wait, I'm
here for 90 minutes doing what?
And, and what I what I'velearned, though, over the time
(34:12):
that I've been doing this forlast couple of years, is I have
learned how to pace myselfthrough these periods of real
discomfort. It's like yes, thisis uncomfortable. And I know
it's going to end but I know itwill end in fact, I can watch if
I really want to I could watchthe clock until it ends, which
by the way makes it slower. LikeI know when this is going to
(34:34):
end, I know what I need to putin between now and then I know I
can do it. And over time I havebecome more comfortable in the
uncomfortable. And that is whenI think about like what is the
number one element that is thathas contributed to my recovery
(34:58):
and then my continued well beingAnd that is that I have learned
how to work through theseperiods of discomfort without
having to self medicate I'm nottalking about, I'm not talking
about prescribe medicationwithout having to self medicate,
whether that is with food thatis with alcohol, that is with
something else that is reallynot additive or creative to my
(35:20):
well being. But I've learnedthat I can sit in these moments
of discomfort, they will end Ican get through them. And on the
other side, I will feel better.
And right now this sucks. It'slike yes, the sun will come out.
And right now it is raining. Soit is not sunny, it is not sunny
(35:40):
at the moment, the sun is stillgoing to come out. Two things
are true. It like the sun willcome out and right now is awful.
Yes. And just living living inin paradox, right? Because
that's kind of life, like welive in this space where like,
there were things that are like,wow, this is really tough, this
is really hard. I would reallylike this to not be happening.
(36:04):
And knowing Yes, there will be atime when it isn't. And right
now I just I need to hang on toget to that time. And I know
that I can. I know that I can.
And I know that I don't have todo something destructive to
myself to get through to that tothat other side
Tara Beckett (36:37):
well, there's I also, you know, you touched on,
you know, your daughters, whenyou were, you know, really sick.
But in your wellness, like, canyou describe some of the joys
that you have with them?
Unknown (36:50):
Oh my gosh, they're so awesome. I, my daughters are so
cool. Like, they're like, I, Ilook at them, and I'm like, how
am I or mom, like, they're,they're super cool. You know, I,
um, I've talked to them openlybut age appropriately, right?
They're eight and 10. So I talkto them openly and age
(37:12):
appropriately about how I how Itake care of all of me. So they
see me exercise, they love they,they love to exercise they, they
want they want to exercise withme, they enjoy going on walks my
elder daughter and I haveactually like, we've done five
K's in different parts of theworld together. We actually did
(37:35):
a 5k on her fifth birthday inMelbourne, Australia. They, I
think what's most wonderfulabout about them and about being
able to be present with them isone watching them learn. Like
it's really fun to watch themlearn and figure stuff out. It's
(37:55):
also wonderful to watch themdevelop opinions, like as their
as their own little people. Andlet me they have points of view,
they have very clear points ofview. And it's, I'm never I
never cease to be amazed bytheir boundless creativity.
(38:15):
They, they love what we calldramatic play. So in their room,
they will transform the let'ssee recently, what have they
done, they transformed theytransformed the room into a
hotel. Perfect. So you had tomake a reservation. And then you
came and like they had they hadcreated like little rooms and
they had like there was a therethere there was there was the
(38:38):
Plus there was the Premium Suiteand then and then there was the
platinum suite and okay loyaltycards. I mean, they really they
really want. I just I love tosee this right like it's just, I
love watching them. Justwatching their creativity,
watching their innovation. Andjust and seeing how, how they
(39:01):
are internalizing, taking careof themselves. I don't know that
I've ever been happier than whenmy elder daughter was just like,
Mommy, I would love to go on awalk for you. But I wasn't with
you. But I've I've had a longday. And I think the best thing
for me to do is sit on the couchand read and I'm like, Yes, yet
(39:23):
you have. I was she was like, Iknow you really want me to go on
a walk with you. But I need tosit on the couch and read and
I'm just like all parentingstops now it's not going to get
better. Like yeah, that's that'sthat's it right? Like you know
what you need to do for yourselfright now. And you are you don't
feel you know that you areempathetic that I would enjoy
(39:45):
doing this with you. Thatmatters to me. You recognize
that this would mean a lot tome. And you're kind in telling
me that you don't want to do thething that you know I want to do
and you are also not doing whatyour mother Do which is do what
would make the other personhappy?
Tara Beckett (40:03):
Yes, yes. Yeah, I'm
Unknown (40:05):
like, wow. Okay, so, um, it took me like 40 something
years to figure that one out,but you managed to do it at the
ripe old age of 10. So, um, allright, you're winning. I mean, I
think that isn't like isn't thatreally what we're all ultimately
striving for is setting anexample or creating and
(40:27):
fostering an environment whereother people can be kind can be
empathetic and can alsoprioritize that which they need
for their for their wellness. Soyeah, it's been it's been quite
a journey. And, you know, Istill believe that like, even
better days are ahead. While Iknow that there are going to be
(40:49):
difficult ones too.
Tara Beckett (40:51):
Yeah, yeah. Liz.
Oh, this is a good one. Thankyou so much. And I before we
end, I would love to hear foryou what let perfect burn means.
Unknown (41:05):
It means let letting go. It means it being setting
perfect means throwingperfection into the bonfire. And
letting go of this belief thatthere is that there is
perfection when really there'sonly progress.
Tara Beckett (41:23):
Thank you so much, Liz. Oh, my gosh,
Unknown (41:25):
thank you. I want to like reach to the screen and
like a really big
Tara Beckett (41:29):
me, too, will be in touch. I can't wait for to
see what you do next. Meanie.
I'm so glad. I'm so glad thatyou are a pioneer out in the
world, especially for thosecorporations that you used to
work for. I think that yourvoice is really needed in those
places that tend to attractpeople like you who are, you
(41:51):
know, smart and driven andperfectionist, you know, just if
they can hear that there'sanother way and still doing the
job that they do. I think that'dbe so amazing. Liz, thank you,
Unknown (42:03):
Tara, thank you and thank you for being you. Thank
you for being bold and steppinginto perhaps a time in your life
you didn't necessarily expectmaybe even want and for just
creating this space. You're abeautiful human and I am so
grateful for you and your voiceand your work. And I am here so
(42:27):
you are never alone. Thank youagain so much for having me.
Perfect
Hi, I'm Tara Beckett, and I want to welcome
you back to Season Two of letperfect burn. It's September,
which means it's NationalSuicide Prevention Awareness
Month. And to honor this month,my guest today is Liz Swaggart,
(00:43):
an award winning mental healthadvocate, who is also an author,
keynote speaker, former Big Fourpartner at PWC. As well as many
other professional roles. Lizhas battled depression since her
teens, and almost four yearsago, made plans to end her life.
Liz tells us, I have a beautifulmind and a jerk brain. I hope
(01:08):
her candid interview can givelight and hope to all who are
suffering not only this month,but always, as Liz tells us.
Until we put our voicestogether. We're all just
individually shouting into thevoid. When we come together,
that's when I think we galvanizeand we give people hope.
(01:38):
Hello, everybody, welcome back.
I'm Tara Beckett, and you'relistening to let perfect Burton.
And today I'm so excited to havein studio, Liz swagger. And Liz
got her undergrad and history.
She loves school. So she went onto get her MBA and operations
and supply chain management. Andthen she got her PhD in
(01:59):
psychology, where she focuses onleaders and leadership. Liz
spent 20 years in business sixas a partner in the big four.
And then she took a major pivot.
She was the co founder of a techstartup on a mission to empower
young people to be safer onlineby helping them make better
decisions. She's very publicabout her mental health journey.
(02:20):
And now she is a mental healthadvocate. Liz, thank you so much
for being here. I'm so excitedto speak to you.
Unknown (02:28):
It is my absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for
having me.
Tara Beckett (02:33):
So, Liz, I think to start I would love to hear
what are you where and what washappening in November of 2019.
Unknown (02:45):
Oh, 2019 November.
It's, it's really baffling to methat that was like three years
ago next month. Because it justfeels so immediate. Like it just
in some ways it feels like itwas yesterday. And in other ways
it feels like truly a lifetimeago. In 2019, in November, I
became suicidal. And Iexperienced the the rock bottom
(03:10):
of the worst major depressiveepisode of my life. And I've
been sort of navigatingdepression since I was about 16
years old. So I grew up in NewYork City. So having a therapist
as a 16 year old is kind of likeyou know, a requirement. And I
remember my therapist like wewere like, I remember we are
(03:30):
we're in the brownstone, mytherapist was in a brownstone.
And I remember my therapistsaying to my mom that I probably
had clinical depression. But forsome reason that I cannot recall
now, like I wasn't formallydiagnosed I was I certainly
wasn't put on medication, whichmakes sense. I mean, I'm 16
years old. But that was kind ofmy first data point of like, Oh,
(03:54):
something is going on in myhead. So I got to college. I
moved to Houston, I went to RiceUniversity go ALS. And as an as
an 18 year old I came face toface with my first like major
depressive episode as an adult.
(04:16):
And for me depression, thesemajor depressive episodes, they
don't look like Hallmark orLifetime movies. Like there's
not like a lot of like, lying onon couches with well placed
cushions like crying into a boxof Kleenex. No, no like that's
(04:37):
just it's not it. I feelnothing. Absolutely nothing. And
it's the struggle to feelcombined with this crushing
sense of failure that I do inthis place. Because everybody
else is normal. I am broken. Iwill never be okay. I will I
(04:59):
will never come out of this. Andlike, it's this. It's like the
heaviest weighted blanket youcan imagine. It's just this
heaviness that sits on me. Andwhen I describe not being able
to get out of bed people aren'tBut literally, you just put your
feet on, like you just roll outof bed. And I'm like, imagine
(05:19):
feeling that you are, you areunder such a heavy weight that
it is, it is literallyimpossible to move out from
underneath it. Yes. And that'show so that's how I've
experienced depression. It'sthis heaviness, inertia, and
this complete disconnection fromthe world. It's like watching
(05:41):
somebody else live my life, andnot having any sense of
connection to myself or others,or more over a desire to. So I
sort of lived with depression,my whole adult life. So like,
from the time I was 18, to thetime that this major depressive
(06:04):
episode that really like took meto rock bottom happened, like I
would go through like, weeks,months, even years of like being
fine. Yes. And then depression,like hiding right there on the
fringes, comes crashing down.
And I figured out like, okay, Ican keep my life going, I can
keep this like poppin careergoing, I don't have time to stop
(06:24):
for therapy, right, like, soI'll just I can go to like one
of these sort of like clinics, Ican I can get medication when I
need it. And I can just pushthrough, because I'm strong and
determined and sheer force ofpersonality. And that is not
really a thing. So I got to likeSeptember, October of 2018. And
(06:45):
I started to feel the slide intomajor depression. And for me,
that looks like stopping selfcare. Like, I don't do my
laundry. Like that's the leadingindicator, my mental health is
like my laundry, and workingout. And eating well, like, the
things that you do because youlove yourself, and you want to
take good care of yourself. Soyou can be there for those you
(07:06):
love. And that just all fellaway. And I went on this sort of
rinse and repeat cycle wherelike every two to three months,
I would go back to like theclinic I went to I saw a
different doctor every time,right, and I would just up my
medication and up my medicationand up my medication. I got to
June 2019, I was on the max doseof three different medications.
(07:32):
One of one of which was like, Iwas an off label prescription
for like as like a moodstabilizer and had some really
horrific side effects that hedidn't understand. And so I get
to June 2019, and I am losing myshort term memory. I'm losing my
I'm losing my ability to putsentences together. I am I am. I
(07:54):
am falling apart. I am sodysfunctional. I was the
physical symptoms that weremanifesting. Were just at one
point, I went to the doctorbecause I thought that I mean, I
was I was having symptoms thatare associated with some really
awful physical diseases. But allof my tests were normal. So and
(08:18):
of course, it never occurred tome to say, oh, yeah, and all of
these medications that I'm on.
And so I just I got to thispoint, it was the week before
Thanksgiving, 2019. And Irealized, like, my, my kids were
gonna see that, like, I didn'twant to be with them. Like I
(08:40):
didn't want to be around thembecause I couldn't relate to
them, like, kids are really goodat knowing when the adults
around them are disinterestedand disconnected. My greatest
fear is that my children wouldthink it was because I didn't
love them. Rather than because Ihad no idea like I couldn't, my
mind couldn't be present in anymoments, because there was
(09:02):
absolutely no feeling. And it itmade sense to me at the time.
Like I I remember the logic ofit, that everyone around me
would be better off if I wasn'there. Because no matter where I
was, if I was at work, I wasdisappointing everybody at home.
(09:23):
If I was at home, I wasdisappointing everybody at work.
And no matter where I was, I wasa disappointment to myself. And
that was that was when I set theplans in motion to end my life
and I am really fortunate thatthat did not happen. I have a
wonderful I have a wonderfullife partner. My My husband was
(09:45):
there when I needed him. Andsomehow I found enough of the
words and he he and he was ableto quickly put together what was
going on? Yes. And so I am so Iam here. But the outcome of that
was that I, I was just I was Iwas just kind of done with
(10:09):
everything because it just feltlike I am in this hole, I will
never get out of it in nomatter, it will not never get
better recovery isn't possible.
All of the things I know now tonot be true and that I'm on this
like mission to tell others youyou are not alone. Hope is
(10:29):
warranted, like recovery ispossible. But in that moment,
none of that none of that wastrue for me. And it took a very,
very hard life reset. In fact,it took me stepping away from my
job for a year or two to getwell. And again, looking back
(10:49):
like I can't believe that wasthree years ago. And at the same
time, I feel like if I sort ofreach out, I can still touch
that time.
Tara Beckett (11:03):
Yeah. Sorry, Liz, I'm having a moment. It's just
really difficult. Like you'reone of the first people again,
like I was hospitalized a yearago. So it yeah, like I can
understand it feels really faraway. And then it feels like oh,
I just did that yesterday. Butyou're speaking to the
experience in such a way that isso candid, that I just want to
(11:26):
hear more people like you.
Because it is still very silent.
And how helpful it would havebeen for me to hear your voice
before, you know, last year forme. So I love what you're doing
already. I know we're not at theinterview. Just how powerful
(11:47):
that is. Thank you.
Unknown (11:49):
And thank you for being so bold in in sharing your own
experience. Because you're rightuntil we put our voices
together. We're all justindividually shouting into the
void. But when we come to whenwe come together, that's when I
think we galvanize, we givepeople hope. And so I am so
(12:14):
appreciative in all of whatyou're doing. Just just to
center and amplify the voices ofpeople who've had the shared
experience. And it is it thereare dimensions of it that we
find resonant with each other.
And then there are things thatare just uniquely personal to
each of us. Yep. And it's reallylike, this is not the Olympics
(12:38):
of suffering. So it's, it's nota it's not a competition. But to
quote the Kaiser Chiefs, it'snot a competition, but I'm
winning. It's one of thosethings, though, right? Where I
think the especially when youlook at sort of social media and
Instagram and things like that,like somehow it almost becomes
(13:00):
this like competition for somefolks. And I think what I love
what you're doing here, but I dothink that as as we just create
space for people to share theirown experiences, to hear from
others to find those points ofresonance, and then to respect
the differences in ourexperiences. Sure. Because what
(13:23):
we each experience, that was ourreality, that was completely
valid for us. And others may notexperience depression the same
way I did. My experience will bedifferent from theirs. And we
are we are still part of thiscommunity. That as I like to say
(13:43):
I have a I have a beautiful mindand a jerk brain. I love that we
live in this space, right? Likethere's occasionally it feels
like there's these two competingfactions in our heads, right?
Like, my mind is my mind doesbeautiful things. And I know
(14:03):
that I mean, you mentioned Ilove school, right? Like I've
I've had this incredibleopportunity to like, think and
do really cool things. And atthe same time my brain has tried
to sabotage me more times than Ican count.
(14:33):
When you say help, that's that'ssuch an important it's, it's
it's an important word. It'salso a very broad word,
especially when we talk aboutmental health and well being. I
really love the framework andthe end the program that is
provided by a mental healthfirst aid. International Program
(14:56):
it you know, it's very readilyaccessible here in the United
States. dates. And it reallyjust gives you as an adult these
ways of supporting others whoare going through a mental
health challenge that focuses onhow do we get you to to
(15:17):
professional help? How do we getyou to people who know how to
help. And also it recognizesthat there is no one size fits
all. So what I like is that Ilike I like approaches where
nobody is vilifying ordemonizing talk therapy, or
medication, or, or other orholistic wellness practices like
(15:41):
yoga, and exercise movement asmedicine, sleep, eating well,
there are so many things that gointo our mental health and well
being. And there are so manytools at our disposal, to to
maintain to get mentally healthyto maintain our mental health. I
(16:01):
think that it's so importantthat when we realize that when
we sort of offer help, we're notoffering a one size fits all.
And we are respecting thatdifferent solutions, different
choices will be right fordifferent people at different
stages of their lives. So I haveI have had some really awful
experiences with medication,really awful. And I also know
(16:25):
that medication has helped tosave my life. Right? So it
really has been being able towork with really good
professionals in mental healthwho can iterate with me because
I wish that it was like set itand forget it, but it isn't
(16:45):
mental health is it's iterativeand you keep working through it.
A little digression. I had Iconvinced myself sort of
immediately after I was out ofthe danger zone like not to get
all Kenny Loggins here. Butlike, as soon as I was sort of
out of like the suicide DangerZone, I convinced myself that I
(17:05):
could like Eat, Pray Love my wayout of this, like I was going to
be fine. It would take like 12weeks, all I have to do is get
off all of these medications,and I'll be fine. So I worked
with a therapist and apsychiatrist. And I got off on
the medications. And three weekslater, I realized that I wasn't
actually getting better. Ineeded I needed medication, that
(17:26):
I needed that. And that was acrushing blow to me because I
felt like I'd failed. I was soconvinced that I'd failed. And
then I double failed. Becauseafter I went back on actually
needed to increase the dose.
Yeah, yeah. And that was justlike, oh my gosh, like I am the
worst. Like, I even suck atgetting better from like,
(17:48):
depression. And what I had toget to this point of was like,
why am I why why am I havingthis reaction to a tool to help
like to, like legitimate helpand support? Like, why am I
having why? Why is it that Ihave internalized our societal
(18:09):
view of mental health as acharacter flaw? This? No. And I
think when I was able to kind ofreject that. I just, I was like,
You know what, this is what thisis what is helping me to be me
at my best right now. And so Iam going to do that. But again,
(18:32):
in society, like, we don't getmad at like, like nobody, nobody
is ever going to say to somebodywith diabetes. You know, if your
pancreas just tried harder,totally, like really? 100%.
Like, if you really if you werejust a better person, your body
could process sugarappropriately, like to no really
(18:54):
no, like, here's insulin. Oh,look, it works. And that's the
thing. It's like, this is like amalfunctioning pancreas is not a
character flaw. Just as whateveris happening between my brain
and my mind is not a reflectionon my worth as a human being.
And so I have tools. I havetechniques, I have support I
(19:17):
have I have professional helpthat I can bring to bear on my
mental health to be the best meI can. So I'm going to do that.
Yeah,
Tara Beckett (19:29):
yeah. I mean, I completely agree. And I also
just tried to honor the factthat it still really bothers me.
Like, there's something aboutwhen I have to do the strip,
like I have a like a flick. Youknow, pillbox? When I'm taking
them regular, I'm good. And thenthere's something about
refilling them, that I can seethem all and I'm just like, What
(19:50):
the hell is happening? Who thehell are you that this is your
life, and you're on way morethan you were when you were
hospitalized? What the hell? Andthen it's like That's not nice,
that's not fair that you are notbeing kind to yourself, and what
is that going to do. And this ismaking you be able to do things
like your podcast, write yourbook, be with friends, like, be
(20:12):
present with your children justknock it off.
Unknown (20:16):
It's a hard message, right? Like, it's a hard message
to deliver to ourselves because,and I, you know, not to not to
circle back too hard to thetheme of the podcast. But as
somebody who used perfectionismas a weapon to attempt to fight
depression, like, I thought thatI could perfection my way out of
(20:40):
depression. I mean, I thought Icould perfection my way out of a
lot of things in life. Same, butit was, it was like, if I if I
just set up because what whatperfectionism gave me was an
incredibly rigid framework thatthat substituted for the that
(21:02):
while stood in for the lack ofcontrol I felt in my life,
because like, I feel, I feelpowerless over what's happening
in my mind. So what I am goingto do is adopt this incredibly
rigid structure for how I'mgoing to do things. And so if I
am perfect, if I if I just doeverything exactly right, then
(21:24):
somehow, I will have control.
And these other things that aregoing on will miraculously be
defeated, which is alsocompletely not true. So it's
like, okay, well, if I if I hitall of like, and for me, it's
compounded by the fact that Ihave OCD, which I found out
about during my year longrecovery. So obsessive
(21:45):
compulsive disorder is it'ssimilar to depression, it is
horribly misconstrued ormisrepresented in the media. Not
all of us are alike. We're notall neat freaks. We're not monk.
OCD is, is really the experienceof having intrusive thoughts,
(22:05):
like, in other words, thingsthat think she thinks you don't
want occupying your mind.
Because either they'reirrelevant, or they're harmful.
But things are thoughts. Youjust like they don't belong in
your head at that time. And theyjust plant themselves. They're
like, they're like squatters,right? They just move in. And
(22:29):
then they slowly start takingover to the point that this
intrusive thought becomes anobsession. And it's like a
pressure cooker. So it's bottledup. And so you're pushing this
down again and again, and tryingto contain it, contain it and
contain it. And finally, it getsto a point where the only way
(22:52):
you can relieve this pressure,this tension, this not clinical
anxiety, but this is sort oflike anxiousness is is some is
to act. And that's thecompulsive piece. And how it's
read by others is it's read asimpulsive. And it's like, no,
this is an impulsive, I didn'tjust decide to do this, this has
(23:12):
been bottling up forever, right.
And so when you also have thistendency of having these
intrusive thoughts becomeobsessions that you then have to
act on, I found that it reallycan be this double whammy,
because things that things thatplay so well, to my natural
desire for perfection, becomethese obsessions. So, for
(23:36):
example, things that now andagain, when I say them, they
sound so ridiculous out loud,but in my head, it is like Bible
truth. Steps, I have to get10,000 steps a day, like so the
idea enters my head, that if Idon't hit certain benchmarks,
then something bad is going tohappen. Like I I'm, usually it
(24:01):
goes back to body image, like mymy, so I'm just gonna leave that
there. I don't want to not gettriggering into that. But it
becomes connected to that. Andso I will lose hours at a time
being so focused on Well, I haveto hit this particular metric.
(24:23):
And I have to do this and I haveto do that. Because if I don't,
this overwhelming obsession,this that I have, I can't tamp
it back down. And again, like myneighbors would be like, Wow,
you're really into fitness. AndI'm like, Yeah, that's the
reason that I walk in circlesaround like my little
(24:46):
neighborhood like when I waswhen I was in the process of
recovering. I did a lot ofcircles around the neighborhood.
And it took a lot of work withmy therapist to get past the
point of I'm being so having mylife ruled by these obsessions,
and then these compulsiveactions. So it's it's one of
(25:07):
those things where I think arewe have some of us like we have
these these natural tendenciestoward perfection, or at least
the pursuit of it, we will neverachieve it. And it becomes this
substitute like this stand infor control, which we don't
(25:29):
feel. And rather than learn howto be uncomfortable, and sit in
that learn how to learn how tosit in the discomfort. That's
when the compulsive actions comein. So one of the things that
I've had to work on is learningto keep those thoughts at bay,
(25:49):
keep them from becomingobsessions, and recognize that I
will, there's discomfort that Ihave to sit in, like life is
hard. And there are things thatI have to just sit in. Yes. And
that building that level ofendurance like that, that mental
fortitude. That's a huge part ofmy recovery. And, yeah, it
(26:12):
doesn't come in pill form.
Tara Beckett (26:15):
Right.
Unknown (26:17):
And it's, it's part, it's part of my it's part of
what I do, it's not everything.
Tara Beckett (26:31):
So what would you say is your current challenge?
You know, you're three years outfrom sort of the rock bottom?
Like, what do you feel goodabout today? And what what kind
of keeps keeps you keeps youmoving? Like, needs to have
attention?
Unknown (26:47):
I love that. Um, well, it's just, it's a really
insightful question. So what Iam most attuned to, I'll put it
that I'll phrase it that way.
What I am most mindful or awareof right now is hubris is
because it would be really easyto say, Look at me, I'm great.
(27:12):
Everything's wonderful again,which, by the way, is how I
spent the first 20 years.
Everything's fine. It's, it'scomplacency, right. It's, it's
feeling like, oh, well, I'mdoing so well. I mean, do I
really still need themedication? Like I'm doing so
well, like I do, you know, don'treally need to keep going with
(27:34):
therapy. Like, you know, like,Isn't isn't therapy for when
you're really bad? Like, what doI have to talk to my therapist
about everything's great. It isgetting into a place of thinking
that somehow this is like,there's a destination, there is
not a destination, there arethere are ways there are
(27:55):
waypoints, right? There aremilestones, there are
waystations. Like, there, thereare stops along the journey, but
it's a journey. So for me, it's,it's not letting myself think,
Oh, I'm fine. I don't needanything else. Therapy therapy
(28:16):
is just as much for the goodtimes as it is for the bad
times. Therapy is just as much apreventative health measure, as
it is and a treatment in anacute situation. So I think it's
continuing to approach therapywith the intent of how do I how
(28:41):
do I keep working through mystuff? How do I how do I keep
taking the steps to care for me?
When it kind of feels like, youknow, I think I'm like, aren't I
done with this? By no, like, Ishould be finished? Right? It
was three years ago, like, we'regood. No, no. And, and also,
just, I think it's a corollaryto that is not getting too down
(29:04):
when I have like bad days, oreven a bad week, and like really
trusting myself to put the toolsto work when that happens. And
and recognizing like I have notfailed because of how to bad
day. Like depression is like theperson nobody invited to the
(29:28):
party who doesn't seem to knowthat it's time to leave. So it's
like I guess we're hereit's really funny, I when I look
at like where I've pulledvarious tools, I birth pulled
(29:51):
various tools that I use. One ofthe biggest tools that I have
that I draw on Now, funnilyenough, I learned in a I learned
in a place you wouldn't thinkthat like, mental health and
wellbeing, coping skills wouldbe would be, like, abundant. And
it was actually the pressure ofbeing a partner in the Big Four,
(30:13):
because one of the things I hadto learn was that not everything
that feels like a crisis in themoment it actually a crisis. And
when you're in a very seniorleadership position, you set the
emotional temperature of theroom. Yes. And so if I freaked
(30:35):
out, everybody around me wasgonna freak out. Because when
something went sideways, youcould always you can always
really tell that everybody knewsomething was going sideways,
because all of a sudden, they'dall look at me. Like, look at
me, and they're like, Mommy willsolve this. And, and it's the
thing is that, that I came torealize, like, it was such an
(30:59):
amazing training ground forunderstanding is this and I
would ask, is this a crisis? Andthe answer 99% of the time is
actually no, it's not a crisis.
It's really uncomfortable. It'sgoing to be very unpleasant to
get through it, you know, it'sgonna, it's gonna hurt a little
(31:21):
bit, there's probably going totake a couple, it's probably
going to require some extremehumility. But yeah, not a
crisis. So if it's not a crisis,it's manageable. Like this very
manageable and it is a crimethat 1% of the time, it is a
crisis. You've got you've gotsupport, you've got partners,
you've got people, you are notalone. And being able with my
(31:44):
own mental health to ask myself,Is this a crisis? And then
realizing no, sis, actually,it's not a crisis, right?
Nothing here is fatal or final.
Tara Beckett (31:55):
It just sucks.
Yeah.
Unknown (31:57):
And we're and and I can do hard things. I know I can do
hard things. I have done hardthings before I can do hard
things again. That's, that's,that's been one thing that's
been really valuable for me theother one, and we sort of joked
a little bit about this beforethe pre show. I mentioned sort
(32:18):
of movement as medicine andphysical exercise as a important
element of my overall well beingbut certainly how I helped
manage my mental health. And Ijoked about a peloton. Leader
leaderboard. So my most of my,one of my dearest friends got
(32:39):
got me into peloton with her assort of I was just sort of there
as like, I was sort of heremotional support peddler, she,
she, this was something duringthe pandemic, it was something
she really wanted to do. And shewanted a buddy and that was
like, alright, I'll, you know,go along. And what I discovered
was the was a type of trainingthat professional cyclists have
(33:02):
been doing forever and ever, infact, many professional or just,
you know, advanced athletes havebeen doing where you work, you
work in zones, so on on the bikeyou work in, in zones that are
levels of effort. And the goalis that you establish kind of
like, what is what is yourthreshold? Like for power? Like
(33:24):
what's, what's the thresholdthat you can like, keep at for
like, an hour before you're justlike a puddle on the floor? And
then how do you systematicallywork yourself up to pushing that
threshold higher? Like how doyou? How do you how do you put
in the work to improve, like,your thresholds, your baseline,
your level of fitness. And whatI found out is that that kind of
(33:49):
training involves prolongedperiods in the saddle, in, in,
relatively like, inuncomfortable, but not
impossible levels of effort.
Right. And when I first got intoit, I was just like, wait, I'm
here for 90 minutes doing what?
And, and what I what I'velearned, though, over the time
(34:12):
that I've been doing this forlast couple of years, is I have
learned how to pace myselfthrough these periods of real
discomfort. It's like yes, thisis uncomfortable. And I know
it's going to end but I know itwill end in fact, I can watch if
I really want to I could watchthe clock until it ends, which
by the way makes it slower. LikeI know when this is going to
(34:34):
end, I know what I need to putin between now and then I know I
can do it. And over time I havebecome more comfortable in the
uncomfortable. And that is whenI think about like what is the
number one element that is thathas contributed to my recovery
(34:58):
and then my continued well beingAnd that is that I have learned
how to work through theseperiods of discomfort without
having to self medicate I'm nottalking about, I'm not talking
about prescribe medicationwithout having to self medicate,
whether that is with food thatis with alcohol, that is with
something else that is reallynot additive or creative to my
(35:20):
well being. But I've learnedthat I can sit in these moments
of discomfort, they will end Ican get through them. And on the
other side, I will feel better.
And right now this sucks. It'slike yes, the sun will come out.
And right now it is raining. Soit is not sunny, it is not sunny
(35:40):
at the moment, the sun is stillgoing to come out. Two things
are true. It like the sun willcome out and right now is awful.
Yes. And just living living inin paradox, right? Because
that's kind of life, like welive in this space where like,
there were things that are like,wow, this is really tough, this
is really hard. I would reallylike this to not be happening.
(36:04):
And knowing Yes, there will be atime when it isn't. And right
now I just I need to hang on toget to that time. And I know
that I can. I know that I can.
And I know that I don't have todo something destructive to
myself to get through to that tothat other side
Tara Beckett (36:37):
well, there's I also, you know, you touched on,
you know, your daughters, whenyou were, you know, really sick.
But in your wellness, like, canyou describe some of the joys
that you have with them?
Unknown (36:50):
Oh my gosh, they're so awesome. I, my daughters are so
cool. Like, they're like, I, Ilook at them, and I'm like, how
am I or mom, like, they're,they're super cool. You know, I,
um, I've talked to them openlybut age appropriately, right?
They're eight and 10. So I talkto them openly and age
(37:12):
appropriately about how I how Itake care of all of me. So they
see me exercise, they love they,they love to exercise they, they
want they want to exercise withme, they enjoy going on walks my
elder daughter and I haveactually like, we've done five
K's in different parts of theworld together. We actually did
(37:35):
a 5k on her fifth birthday inMelbourne, Australia. They, I
think what's most wonderfulabout about them and about being
able to be present with them isone watching them learn. Like
it's really fun to watch themlearn and figure stuff out. It's
(37:55):
also wonderful to watch themdevelop opinions, like as their
as their own little people. Andlet me they have points of view,
they have very clear points ofview. And it's, I'm never I
never cease to be amazed bytheir boundless creativity.
(38:15):
They, they love what we calldramatic play. So in their room,
they will transform the let'ssee recently, what have they
done, they transformed theytransformed the room into a
hotel. Perfect. So you had tomake a reservation. And then you
came and like they had they hadcreated like little rooms and
they had like there was a therethere there was there was the
(38:38):
Plus there was the Premium Suiteand then and then there was the
platinum suite and okay loyaltycards. I mean, they really they
really want. I just I love tosee this right like it's just, I
love watching them. Justwatching their creativity,
watching their innovation. Andjust and seeing how, how they
(39:01):
are internalizing, taking careof themselves. I don't know that
I've ever been happier than whenmy elder daughter was just like,
Mommy, I would love to go on awalk for you. But I wasn't with
you. But I've I've had a longday. And I think the best thing
for me to do is sit on the couchand read and I'm like, Yes, yet
(39:23):
you have. I was she was like, Iknow you really want me to go on
a walk with you. But I need tosit on the couch and read and
I'm just like all parentingstops now it's not going to get
better. Like yeah, that's that'sthat's it right? Like you know
what you need to do for yourselfright now. And you are you don't
feel you know that you areempathetic that I would enjoy
(39:45):
doing this with you. Thatmatters to me. You recognize
that this would mean a lot tome. And you're kind in telling
me that you don't want to do thething that you know I want to do
and you are also not doing whatyour mother Do which is do what
would make the other personhappy?
Tara Beckett (40:03):
Yes, yes. Yeah, I'm
Unknown (40:05):
like, wow. Okay, so, um, it took me like 40 something
years to figure that one out,but you managed to do it at the
ripe old age of 10. So, um, allright, you're winning. I mean, I
think that isn't like isn't thatreally what we're all ultimately
striving for is setting anexample or creating and
(40:27):
fostering an environment whereother people can be kind can be
empathetic and can alsoprioritize that which they need
for their for their wellness. Soyeah, it's been it's been quite
a journey. And, you know, Istill believe that like, even
better days are ahead. While Iknow that there are going to be
(40:49):
difficult ones too.
Tara Beckett (40:51):
Yeah, yeah. Liz.
Oh, this is a good one. Thankyou so much. And I before we
end, I would love to hear foryou what let perfect burn means.
Unknown (41:05):
It means let letting go. It means it being setting
perfect means throwingperfection into the bonfire. And
letting go of this belief thatthere is that there is
perfection when really there'sonly progress.
Tara Beckett (41:23):
Thank you so much, Liz. Oh, my gosh,
Unknown (41:25):
thank you. I want to like reach to the screen and
like a really big
Tara Beckett (41:29):
me, too, will be in touch. I can't wait for to
see what you do next. Meanie.
I'm so glad. I'm so glad thatyou are a pioneer out in the
world, especially for thosecorporations that you used to
work for. I think that yourvoice is really needed in those
places that tend to attractpeople like you who are, you
(41:51):
know, smart and driven andperfectionist, you know, just if
they can hear that there'sanother way and still doing the
job that they do. I think that'dbe so amazing. Liz, thank you,
Unknown (42:03):
Tara, thank you and thank you for being you. Thank
you for being bold and steppinginto perhaps a time in your life
you didn't necessarily expectmaybe even want and for just
creating this space. You're abeautiful human and I am so
grateful for you and your voiceand your work. And I am here so
(42:27):
you are never alone. Thank youagain so much for having me.
Perfect
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