In this episode, I sit down with the wildly funny, authentic-as-hell Michelle Cove, the Senior Communications Manager for Experience Camps for Grieving Children. When Michelle was 20 years old, she lost her father. She continued by living in a state of shock, until 12 years later, she fell apart. She was in a loving, supportive marriage with a young child, and the trauma of her young adulthood hit hard. “It threw me because I didn’t know why. And the reason why was that I was safe. I was in a stable place, all around me. There were signs that said it’s okay now to fall apart.”
Michelle takes us on her journey that led to her current professional role as the Senior Communications Manager for Experience Camps for Grieving Children. The campers are young people who have lost a parent or parent figure or a sibling. With Covid, Michelle has seen even more applications for campers whose loved one has died of overdose or suicide, the pandemic making life, especially in communities of color, impossible, exacerbated by the lack of mental health access.
Michelle brings her life experience to her organization in her daily work, getting the word out about the camp, amongst other missions. She focuses on education for supporting those grieving: “If we are talking about grief, or if we’re talking about depression or anxiety or anybody facing any adversity— just sitting with them, not trying to fix it, or give them your wisdom. Nobody needs your advice. Just, ‘that sounds hard.’ Or, ‘I want to hear what it’s like for you.’ Or, ‘I’m just listening.’”
Highlights from Michelle:
"And I realized that Goddammit, there were gifts from the death of my Dad. And the biggest one was I don't take time for granted."
"You're valuable just because you're valuable. You're worthwhile because you're you. And everything after that is just extensions of what you want to put out into the world. And it's such a different way to live when you really get that."
"I think authenticity is the hottest thing in the world. People showing you who they really are— take me or leave me. This is me. I don't know what's better than that. I love showing up that way and I love it in other people. It's the thing I find the most attractive."
Don't Miss a Beat.
Follow my Instagram for news from me, Tara Beckett:
https://www.instagram.com/letperfectburn/
Learn more about Michelle Cove:
http://www.michellecove.com/
Experience Camps for Grieving Children:
https://experiencecamps.org/
Original Music for Let Perfect Burn by Eleri Ward
https://www.instagram.com/eleriward/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tara Beckett (00:23):
Hi, I'm Tara Beckett, and you're listening to
let perfect burn.
My guest today is Michelle coveof experience camps for grieving
children. When Michelle was 20years old, she lost her father.
She continued on by living in astate of shock. Until 12 years
(00:46):
later, she fell apart. Michellewas in a loving, supportive
marriage with a young child andthe trauma of her young
adulthood hit hard. She says, Itthrew me because I didn't know
why. And the reason why was thatI was safe. I was in a stable
place all around me. There weresigns that said it's okay now to
(01:06):
fall apart. But shell takes uson her journey that led to her
current professional role as thesenior communications manager
for experience camps forgrieving children. The campers
are young people who have lost aparent, or parent figure or a
sibling. Michelle focuses oneducation for supporting those
who grieve. She says if we aretalking about grief, or if we're
(01:29):
talking about depression, oranxiety, or anybody facing
adversity, just sit with them.
Don't try to fix it or give themyour wisdom. Nobody needs your
advice. Just That sounds hard.
Or I want to hear what it's likefor you. Or I'm just listening.
(01:56):
Hi, welcome back to let perfectburn. And today I'm here with
Michelle Kolb. And Michelle usedto be my upstairs neighbor back
when I live in Brookline. And acouple of things that I will
never forget about Michelle one.
When my son was a newborn, sheknocked on the door. She said,
You've got one hour, and I'lltake the baby and do whatever
(02:18):
you want. And you probably werenext to God at that point.
Because you took my child and Igot to lay down and go to sleep.
The other thing that I'll neverforget is when I was in the
throes of like postpartumdepression and a you know, kid
who wouldn't sleep and cryingand just sort of losing my mind
(02:38):
in an epic snowstorm. Do youremember this? Like, when we set
the record? We like set therecord of that one. Yeah. Oh,
God. And you know, you said,what got me through early
motherhood was knowing thatthere was always a fire station
that I could drop her off at? Doyou remember this?
Michelle Cove (03:00):
Oh, totally. My friend. Dana told me that there
are fire stations in Watertown.
And if you leave your kid in abasket, they have to take it. I
was like, Okay, done.
And you said, I remember yousaid something like, that idea
got me through because you saidI would think about it, and then
say, I'm not quite to the firestation, so I'm gonna hang on.
(03:23):
Yeah, my daughter's 17. And Istill think
Tara Beckett (03:27):
I could leave her Watertown at a fire station.
Perfect. And your daughter isnow going off to college? Which
Yeah, crazy. Socan you talk a little bit about
where you are now as a mother?
Michelle Cove (03:44):
Yeah, I actually just wrote about this recently,
because, you know, those firstyears, man, when everybody's
like, time goes so fast. Youhave to treasure these very
special moments. And like, can Iswear on?
Tara Beckett (03:58):
Oh, absolutely.
Girl.
Unknown (04:01):
That did not go fast.
Everyday was like 10 days, itwas, you know, you would pull
out like your puppet show andyour sock puppet like all the
things in your activities. It'dbe like 10am with like, a data
fill. Yes. And no one tells youthat everyone's like, it's just,
you know, filled with littlegifts and precious treasures.
And for me, it was like really,when Risa started going to
(04:23):
school and getting her ownpersonality and stories and
wasn't physically attached to meand started becoming more her.
That's when things started topick up. And it's, you know, I
just I wish somebody had alsotold me that part like it's
okay, if you're not treasuringthese very special special.
first few years, yes. Yeah. Andnow it's 17. Like she's her best
(04:48):
self like it took 17 years tosort of know who she was and get
the confidence and have heropinions that are outside of my
Indians and become like superthoughtful and interesting. And
now she's leaving. Like, that'sthe heartbreak they come
together. And then as we'resupposed to we send them off,
but like now I really, reallylike being with her.
Tara Beckett (05:12):
Yes, yes. And so with her going off to college,
what's next for you? Is theresomething that you're changing
up? Or? You know, what's thatnext step for you?
Unknown (05:26):
Yeah, so I've had a few friends told me I could borrow
their kids. And I'm like, no,no, no. That's not what we're
looking for the next day. It'sjust like you to drop your kids
at my house. Yeah, I mean, thethe other interesting thing
about Risa is it's a one anddone right. She's an only child.
(05:48):
And so we're experiencing thefirst one out and the last one
out. So we're empty nestersreally quickly. And this is the
part where I'm glad that Ezra myhusband, and I have really
invested in liking each other.
Yes. And didn't put Risa firstall the time to our own
detriment in a relationshipbecause now like, it's us. So I
(06:09):
look forward to getting back tolike that phase where we're
like, dating and havingadventures and traveling. But I
do think, at the risk ofsounding noxious, like, I think
we did know that going through,I had a mom who was a divorce
attorney who really preach that,you know, keep that connection
(06:32):
alive. And so I tell that to myfriends, too. Like, don't wait
until the kids are grown up togo find that again. Yes. And
like granted, we annoy the hellout of each other, too. We're
not we're no perfect couple.
Right? We did get that we can'tsort of wait it out those hard
(06:53):
moments and try to find ourrelationship again after she
left the nest.
Tara Beckett (06:57):
Because that so it makes total sense. Yeah. Yeah.
And I spent I'm more in thelittle people little kiddos
phase. Yeah, it is super hard towork on your marriage because
you just got nothing left at theend of the day. So like you
said, nobody tells you that butI just thought having kids, we
(07:20):
would just get happier as acouple. As a job.
You just add more bliss, right?
Because Oh, yeah, that's whatkids are all the time. Bliss
machines.
Exactly, exactly. I
Unknown (07:39):
remember my mom right after I had Risa. I had a C
section. I was physicallymentally fried. And she my mom
came to stay with us. And she anight one, set a dinner table
and put candles out and said youand Ezra are gonna sit and I
have Risa and you two are gonna,like have a dinner date. And I
(08:01):
was so tired. I had tearspouring down my face in my
nightgown in the candle. Like itwas so awful, but it was her
trying to plant that seed ofeven when you're tired, like
just keep showing up for eachother. It'll come back.
Tara Beckett (08:16):
Yes. Okay, so when another Michelle Cove story is
coming back to me, which is whenI was so exhausted, you said
girl, you're gonna get that redlipstick out of your makeup bag,
and you're gonna put some on,and you're gonna exit the condo.
And I was like, I don't knowwhere I'm going. But I have
Michelle Cove (08:37):
being I don't even have lipstick. And I'm like
that was clearly my mom beenchanneled through me Yeah.
Tara Beckett (08:58):
So Michelle, you are now a senior communications
manager at experience camps. AndI would just love for you to
share a little bit about whatyour role is and what experience
camps is.
Unknown (09:11):
Yeah, so experienced cams is a national nonprofit
organization. And their job isto really champion the 5.6
billion grieving kids in ourcountry who will experience the
death of a parent or a siblingalike by age 18. I had no idea
(09:32):
the numbers were that high. Andso part of how they address this
is they have a network of nocost camps where your kids who
are in grieving families go fora week. And it's kind of the
intersection of grief and joy.
So kids are having sharingcircles and learning to navigate
their feelings around grief andgetting real deal with other
(09:53):
kids who get it and they'replaying volleyball and making
milkshakes and like how Bigs'mores and like the camp
experience, where I come in isgetting the word out experience
camps, but also really trying tochange the conversation around
grief. You know, we live in aculture that just doesn't talk
(10:14):
about it and know what to say.
And the things that people dotry to say in the name of
showing up are god awful. And Idon't blame them. Because
nobody's ever really taught ushow do you show up for someone?
So that's the part I'm mostfired up about? Is teaching
people through content, how tohave these conversations and
(10:34):
really show up for one another?
Tara Beckett (10:37):
And what would that look like? If you were to
talk about the things the wordthat you're getting out there of
how to talk about grief withsomebody else?
Unknown (10:48):
Yeah, so it's interesting. I talk to so many
of the kids, the campers and askthem like, What's your least
favorite thing that people sayto you when they hear about, you
know, the death in your family?
And their very least favoritething is when people say I'm
sorry, or I'm sorry for yourloss? And that's the thing we've
been trained as.
Tara Beckett (11:09):
Ally? Yeah, right.
Like, if not
Unknown (11:11):
that, what? And I think it's okay to say I'm sorry, but
that can't be. And now I've donemy job. Now, I've said that
thing, right? It's I'm sorry.
And that must have been reallyhard. Can you tell me about him?
Or what was your favorite memoryof her? Or, you know, what do
you remember? Or can you tell mea story? It's just sitting in
the space with whoever isgrieving? And they can say, no,
(11:33):
they can say I don't want totalk about it. But there's so
much loneliness to it. You know,everybody just wants to get away
fast from you like the sadperson, but just learning how to
sit with them and ask themquestions and just be with them.
It's there's no shortcut answer.
But but that's how we show up.
Tara Beckett (11:54):
Like, share it, like you said, sharing space.
And I'm just as you're talking,I just realized, like, it's not
about your discomfort, right?
It's about or making the persontalking comfortable. It's about
how do you sit with that otherperson?
Unknown (12:10):
Exactly. And I think it applies across the boards, if
we're talking about likedepression or anxiety, or
anybody facing any adversity,just sitting with them not
trying to fix it, or give themyour wisdom when nobody needs
your advice. Right. Just Thatsounds hard. I want to hear what
what's it like for you? I'm justlistening.
Tara Beckett (12:32):
Yeah, as you're talking to, I think one of my
least favorite in the realm ofsort of the depression and
adversity is the at leastcomment. Oh, right. So at least,
you know, XYZ and sort ofcancelling out whatever's
happening for that person.
Unknown (12:50):
Yeah, it least, you know, you got to know your dad a
little bit, right. At least yourmom died really quickly, you
know, and that's not comforting
Tara Beckett (12:59):
to know. Oh, no, no.
Unknown (13:10):
I came to it in terms of like, why I wanted to
Tara Beckett (13:13):
take this role.
Absolutely. Yes.
Unknown (13:16):
So my dad died when I was 20. I was a sophomore in
college, and I got a phone call.
He was healthy, he was vibrant,he was young, and a drunk driver
hit him in a car accident, andthe rug was just immediately
pulled out in a way I'd neverexperienced. And it was
impossible, you know, it wasimpossible that that would
(13:39):
happen. And it happened. And Iknow of what I speak at 20 of
watching people try to show upand not having the words or the
experience, I had a lot offriends kind of bail, because
they were just terrified, youknow, of I'm gonna make it
worse. And a lot of people whosaid I'm just gonna give her
space, you know, nobody wantsspace with her home alone with
(14:02):
her like hard feelings. And Ihad friends like really show up
in beautiful, extraordinary waysalso. And so part of it was
certainly that experience. And Iremember thinking naively, that
it would be better if you had toexperience the death of someone
(14:24):
you love for it to be over time,right? Where they got sick, and
you got to say goodbye, and itwas more prolonged and, and then
a few years ago, my mom died inthat way. And it's shitty.
There's no better way to like,you know, lose somebody that you
really love. And so, these areconversations that I'm really
(14:45):
interested in having. And no onewants to be a part of this club,
but it is kind of a club. Onceyou've experienced a loss. You
are tied forever to peoplewho've been through something
like that.
Tara Beckett (15:00):
Hmm. And when you talk about the people in your
life who showed up inextraordinary ways, is there a
particular person or moment thatjust really helped you or soothe
you?
Unknown (15:15):
Yes, I will share one of truly many Angeles got shout
out to you, if you're listeningwas a friend and colleague. And
she knew that lavender was likeone of my soothing things. And
she filled a bag with a littlelavender soft, soft blanket, and
(15:37):
a lavender spray bottle. So Icould spray it to smell like
lavender and put a little cardin and just came to the house
and left it by the door like noexpectation, no anything just
thinking of you. And she hadnever been through a death or
something that would teach herhow to know how to do that. It
was just a purely like intuitivespectacular moment. So that was
(16:03):
one and I'll tell you one otherone, because I also never got
it, which I forgot, which was myfriend Kavita reached out and
said, I didn't get to know yourmom. But knowing you I wish I
had, can we sit and look at ascrapbook and you share some
stories with me of her. And thatagain, being toward the thing
(16:23):
instead of reading from it wasso beautiful and comforting.
Tara Beckett (16:29):
I mean, that one just gave me some chills only
because not only because but itsounds like that friend was
really interested in her life.
Yeah, versus kind of thinkingthat the death was the only
thing.
Unknown (16:44):
Exactly. Who was this person who raised What am I
people?
Tara Beckett (16:56):
Can you speak to a little bit the gifts that you
have gotten from the death ofeither your mom or your dad?
Unknown (17:03):
Yeah, so I talk about I have a fabulous, fabulous
therapist. And at one point, sheasked me about the gifts that I
got after my dad died and fromthe accident. And my response
was what? Like, What an assholequestion. What happened? What it
(17:24):
was so purple, I just sat there.
And I was like, What do youmean? Like gifts that came after
the death or inches? Like no,no, what death? What a death
bring you as a gift that youknow this loss of your dad. And
I sat there and I just she said,just see what it'll come to you
to see if anything shows up? Andif no, no, and you gotta took me
(17:44):
off the hook. And I realizedthat God dammit, like, there
weren't gifts. And the biggestone was like, I don't take time
for granted. Right? Like, wedon't know how much time we
have. And it it just pared awayall the BS, like things I want.
I know how to really go forthem. I'm not as bothered by
(18:08):
like, what if I get a no or whatif I'm rejected? Or what if I
don't hear back? Like, I don'tcare? Like, yeah, it's really
rare. I don't and and gettingthis life is precious. And that
doesn't mean every moment isjoyful. But it is precious. And
we don't know how long we haveit.
Tara Beckett (18:43):
At one point on an MLK Day, you were talking about
the racial grief gap? And canyou speak to that a little bit?
Unknown (18:52):
Yeah, the racial grief gap just refers to the fact that
black and brown people areexperiencing much higher rates
of death than white kids are,especially when you know, when
we're looking at camp. And Ithink it's three times the rate
of experiencing the death of amom, and two times the
(19:13):
experience, you know, of losinga father. And we don't talk
about that a lot. And we're Ithink it's going to come out
more and more as we look atCOVID. And who is suffering and
who experienced death and whatcommunities had access to and
how did this happened? I thinkthat those kinds of
conversations are going to startto explode. And it's beyond time
(19:37):
for them and that we have tobuild structures and systems to
support these kids and thesefamilies because they're really
suffering.
Tara Beckett (19:45):
Yeah, I mean, just what you're talking about COVID
I thought the most privilege wehad is that we could work in our
homes. That's right. It was likein we were safe in so many ways
and we could continue to make anincome And so that divide during
the pandemic, I think just gotworse and worse.
Unknown (20:05):
For sure. And I think we're talking about right now,
like 200,000 kids who have beenorphaned, you know, and
caregivers and grandparents whoare going to have to step in and
raise these kids. It's a lot, alot what's coming down the pike
for us and mental health andkids and how it's gonna affect
that.
Tara Beckett (20:23):
Absolutely. And is that something that you're
already seeing at experiencecamps? That the aftermath of
that?
Unknown (20:31):
Yeah, it's interesting, we've seen for sure, obviously,
an uptick in COVID cases, inparticular. But really what
we're seeing is more and moreapplications that are showing
overdose, drug addiction,suicide, like we're seeing sort
of the secondary effects, Ithink that came out of COVID.
Tara Beckett (20:54):
Right, the isolation or the having to go to
work and in unsafe places, andis that well, we're kind of
thinking that the secondary issort of the coping that was
necessary to make it through.
Unknown (21:08):
Yeah. And who had access to any kind of, you know,
coping skills, or resources ortherapy or, you know, job loss
issues? And yeah, how are wegoing to show up for these kids?
You know, how are we going tosupport them? Like, we have 10
camps? Beyond that? What is theculture are we going to do for
(21:28):
these kids?
Tara Beckett (21:31):
Who, oh, to switch gears just a little bit, I think
there's just so much more to sayabout that. And I will just
fully admit that that is the endof my ability to speak to it,
which I think says a lot.
Unknown (21:47):
Yeah, I do think, you know, without being like, super
pluggy, if you go to experiencecamps.org, there's a whole
section on this particular issuethat people can read about and
get more educated and just basicinformation. So we do know what
we're dealing with. And I think,you know, the thing about camp
(22:08):
that I love the most is, it'sreally a place that normalizes
this experience. So if you area, you know, 10 year old kid and
your father died from anoverdose or an accident, or, you
know, it's impossible to sit inschool, we're no, no, you're the
weird kid, right? Or on yoursoccer team, or you're the freak
(22:30):
or, but like everyone, there'slike, yeah, what's new? Like,
yeah, we get it, you don't haveto go through the backdrop and
the isolation of that. Andthat's what I love most like,
you know, when you look around,everyone in that specific way is
just like you and that wasgetting to know them as like
potential friends and people.
Tara Beckett (23:00):
Was there a specific breaking point for you
that you're grateful for?
Unknown (23:08):
Oh, more than one.
Tara Beckett (23:11):
I mean, I've got time. I've got time.
Unknown (23:15):
Yeah, I one of the breaking points was after my dad
died, I went into shock for awhile without even knowing I
went into shock. I think Inumbed out and was just in that
fog that people go in was sortof riding through the days. And
(23:37):
my mom who was really good atgetting to the next place, the
next place the next place, andlike moving everybody through,
and here we go, and we're notgonna fall apart and very
quickly moved me and her into agear of like, we're gonna move
we're gonna get out of thistown, we're not going to be the
(23:57):
widow family. We're gonna, youknow, do this and that and get a
new life. And it's what held hertogether. I think it's how she
was built, and I at the time, soit is somewhat heroic. And
looking back, I really needed tofall apart. Like, I needed the
space. That was reallyappropriate, though, because I
(24:20):
just lost my dad, who's also afriend who I was getting to know
as an adult, it was appropriatefor me to fall apart. And
instead of taking that time, Isort of went with like,
Operation turn our lives. Right.
Yes. And like we're okay. Andwhat happened is, it was about
(24:40):
12 years later when my fallapart came and suddenly the
trauma hit in a hard way and itthrew me because I didn't know
why. And the reason why was Iwas safe, I was in a stable
place. All round me, there weresigns that said it's all it's
(25:01):
okay now to fall apart the timeis now. And when I say fall
apart, I mean crying around theclock, I had diarrhea, the
clock, I was a red hot mess. Iwas shaking a lot, I was having
to show up for work and was onlike one quarter capacity, like
everything came on done. Andit's what I needed to finally go
(25:23):
back and heal and startrebuilding. And I, as a parent
would never prolong that lookingback, like you fall apart when
you need to. And sometimes itgets stalled a little but 12
years now was too much. No.
Tara Beckett (25:42):
And in that journey of falling apart. Was
that when you met your husband?
Was that inside of that periodof time? Or is it were you like
when you were say I was finallysafe with people around me? Was
that part of your journey?
Unknown (25:55):
Yeah, so I was already with Ezra and thank God, like
had built a foundation of welike each other. And we're
together. Like, it'd be reallyhard to date me if I had
nothing. What was hard is Risamy daughter was really little
and needed a lot of care. And Iwas checked out for I would say,
(26:16):
a good two to three months,really without capacity to take
care of me or her. And that'swhen a partner husband is really
important. He just stepped upand showed up and was really
apparent, like the parent, youknow, I was kind of bare minimum
for those few months as I putmyself back together. And I am
(26:40):
grateful for that. That wouldnot have been doable with
somebody saying, Where's mydinner? Where's any of the
things? So, so safe, meaning Ihad somebody really supporting
me falling apart andunderstanding there's nothing to
do to really stop it. And theonly thing to do was bring your
A game empathy, complained toother people, I'm sure you feel
(27:03):
sad for yourself and frustrated,and where's my wife? But I don't
think I would have made itthrough being who I am now, had
I not been through that?
Tara Beckett (27:24):
When you talk about the way that your mom
needed to get through it, andhow you 12 years later got
through it in a very differentway. Can you speak a little bit
to what that did for yourrelationship?
Unknown (27:38):
It was not great at first for our relationship. You
know, she was the mom who reallystruggled when I cried or felt
sad as a kid. Right? Like it wasan ongoing theme for us. of, you
know, I joke about it now, buther response was like have a
cookie, let's buy a jumpsuit,let's get new magazines, right,
(27:59):
there was an answer to making itbetter, we're gonna cheer
ourselves up. And there was justnot a lot of room for sitting in
IQ, you know, as I call it. Andso I was pissed for a while.
When I came out of that, I wasreally bummed out that I didn't
have the I had a mom who lovedme and adored me and built
(28:22):
confidence in me and lucky in somany ways, and she was such a
strong character. But she wasnot a role model in that way.
And I had to grieve that, that Imissed that. And it highly,
highly informed how I parent
Tara Beckett (28:39):
just gonna say, yeah, yeah, changer, right.
Unknown (28:43):
And kind of healed myself by giving that to reason.
It wasn't easy, but there was nolet's have a cookie it was just
sitting at she cried and saying,Man, I can see this is really
hard for you. Yes. And it feltso uncomfortable. Because I
didn't have that experiencemyself. But it's what I needed
and wanted and could give toher. And I'm so grateful for
(29:05):
that to sort of break that chainof it.
Tara Beckett (29:07):
Yes. And I think she's just really lucky to have
that experience. And she's luckythat you had the break down.
Yeah. Because I she would havehad a very different parent.
Unknown (29:20):
Without question without question. And, you know,
I came back around with my momand was able to help her move
closer to have to sit in thehard feelings. I don't want to
say it was like one ad. But wehad good conversations about
that, and how, why she wasn'table to write our stories, keep
(29:41):
going back generations, andthere were very good reasons.
And so I think later it broughtus closer together, but I had to
be pissed for a little while.
Tara Beckett (29:51):
healthily, pissed.
I like it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,that's And were there any other
breaking points for you? Youthat really comprise your story.
Unknown (30:04):
Yeah, the other one that wasn't quite as extreme,
like an actual falling apart.
But it was definitely a shake upwas when I left I had started a
nonprofit in 2009 Is that true?
No. 14. And I was the founder ofmedia girls. And it was
(30:28):
something I cared about deeplyand led for six years. And
that's a whole story in itself.
But when I decided to leave thatand go back to storytelling, and
take what our culture wouldconsider a demotion, right to go
from CEO and hotshot leader andthis, like organization that
like women especially reallyresponded to, and it's all about
(30:51):
empowerment. And in leavingthat, before I knew what I was
going to do, before I knew whatjob I was going to find just
trying to have some faith thatthe right thing would appear. It
was really hard it was duringthe pandemic, and it was a good
six, seven months of not havinga job. And the ego hit. I'm
(31:12):
going from this like a womanwho's running her own show. And
she's empowering girls and lookat her and look what she's made.
And it's growing and to like,who am I without any job,
forget, like a cool job, like Igot nothing. And seeing how much
of my identity had gotten tiedto that, you know, and I I
(31:37):
struggled you know, I think thefirst few months were just me
hitting refresh our jobs, reallylooking like Now is there
anything that was already therewas it. And then, after a few
months, where I was actuallystarting to go a little crazy
(32:00):
from the job refresh. I justreally got like, you may never
have this time again, like youmay you may not have just space,
you know, of just time to likeactually work on something or
grow yourself or stretchyourself. You have it what do
you want to learn? What do youwant to get better at? And it
(32:20):
was like this, I want to findout my value outside of a job
like a real integrated value.
And I started doing like freeworkshops online and courses and
going there and really buildingout that what I do for a living
(32:44):
matters to me and I want to putgood in the world and it is not
who I am. Those are two verydifferent things. I'm 53, that
took a real loss.
Tara Beckett (32:58):
But you got there.
Right there, right? It'sfreedom. Yes, yes. As you're
speaking about that, my brainjust went to I'm in the phase of
the role of mother is so strongbecause my kids are little that
you realize, let alone lettingyour marriage disappear, letting
yourself disappear. And justbeing like, I am only in
(33:19):
existence because I am this thisperson to another human being,
rather than being like, Who areyou if you just exist.
Unknown (33:32):
And that just That's enough, right? That there is
value and just tear existing inthe world and being your
beautiful self. Like if youstrip away the roles and the
like contrived identities andthe job and the pod gifts, if
you took away all those, you'revaluable just because you're
valuable, you're worthwhilebecause you're you and
everything on that are justextensions of what you want to
(33:53):
put out into the world. And it'ssuch a different way to live
when you like really get that
Tara Beckett (33:59):
and something I always looked up to you because
it's like kind of I had thisolder sister in the condo it was
very it was very cool. And youwere way cooler than me.
Totally. But you I always lovedhow you just said it how it was
right like I had I stillstruggle with that just saying
(34:20):
what I mean to say without the Ithink you put it actually in the
thing about saying is Does thatmake sense? Or is that okay?
Those like little tags thatwomen tend to put on things I
just I loved I just lovedhearing you speak because that
was absent.
Unknown (34:37):
Yeah, I think authenticity is the hottest
thing in that world. Peopleshowing you who they really are
like, take me or leave me this.
This is me. I don't know what'sbetter than that. I love showing
up that way and I love it andother people. It's the thing I
find the most attractive is justyou're getting to see the real
me it's beautiful. I Love it
Tara Beckett (35:08):
Michelle, to wrap up today, I just asked all of my
guests and I'd love to ask youWhat does let perfect burn mean
for you?
Unknown (35:18):
Well, I love the phrase so much. It's so relevant. I
believe in our culture. Youknow, of all my many issues. I'm
sure. perfection itself isn'tone of them yet, but what I can
say is that in I guess just onthe heels of what I just said
(35:41):
about authenticity and watchingpeople and myself grow, like
that's where the juicy goodstuff is. I never want to stop
growing. You know, I knowthere's going to be more
Crossroads moments and I don'tdread them. I yearn for them
like that's how we find out whowe are imperfect says to me, I'm
done. I've arrived. I nailed it.
Like how friggin boring to me.
(36:05):
They're like, what are you goingto do now?
Tara Beckett (36:07):
Right, you've got how well and like you said, you
don't know how much time youhave. What have you had decades
and you've already arrived? Oh,shit, right,
Unknown (36:15):
right. or what have you have a month like no matter
what, yep, those growth likethat's why we're here is to grow
and learn who wants to be like Ihit done. Like, that is not the
point of why we're going around.
Tara Beckett (36:29):
I love that.
Michelle, this is it's alwaysgood time to talk to you. I'm so
glad this worked out. AndMichelle Cove and experience
camps and I just hope everyonewill check it out so that they
can learn more. And if you havesomebody a young person in your
life who is grieving. Idefinitely think go there and
just see if that's going to be afit for your child. What are the
(36:51):
ages?
Unknown (36:55):
Yep. So it's about age nine and up. Oh, great. Yeah. So
all the way like 1718 And thenyou can volunteer. It's a
lifelong.
Tara Beckett (37:08):
Well, thank you again, and we'll be in touch
Michelle, you're a blast. Thankyou.
Hi, I'm Tara Beckett, and you're listening to
let perfect burn.
My guest today is Michelle coveof experience camps for grieving
children. When Michelle was 20years old, she lost her father.
She continued on by living in astate of shock. Until 12 years
(00:46):
later, she fell apart. Michellewas in a loving, supportive
marriage with a young child andthe trauma of her young
adulthood hit hard. She says, Itthrew me because I didn't know
why. And the reason why was thatI was safe. I was in a stable
place all around me. There weresigns that said it's okay now to
(01:06):
fall apart. But shell takes uson her journey that led to her
current professional role as thesenior communications manager
for experience camps forgrieving children. The campers
are young people who have lost aparent, or parent figure or a
sibling. Michelle focuses oneducation for supporting those
who grieve. She says if we aretalking about grief, or if we're
(01:29):
talking about depression, oranxiety, or anybody facing
adversity, just sit with them.
Don't try to fix it or give themyour wisdom. Nobody needs your
advice. Just That sounds hard.
Or I want to hear what it's likefor you. Or I'm just listening.
(01:56):
Hi, welcome back to let perfectburn. And today I'm here with
Michelle Kolb. And Michelle usedto be my upstairs neighbor back
when I live in Brookline. And acouple of things that I will
never forget about Michelle one.
When my son was a newborn, sheknocked on the door. She said,
You've got one hour, and I'lltake the baby and do whatever
(02:18):
you want. And you probably werenext to God at that point.
Because you took my child and Igot to lay down and go to sleep.
The other thing that I'll neverforget is when I was in the
throes of like postpartumdepression and a you know, kid
who wouldn't sleep and cryingand just sort of losing my mind
(02:38):
in an epic snowstorm. Do youremember this? Like, when we set
the record? We like set therecord of that one. Yeah. Oh,
God. And you know, you said,what got me through early
motherhood was knowing thatthere was always a fire station
that I could drop her off at? Doyou remember this?
Michelle Cove (03:00):
Oh, totally. My friend. Dana told me that there
are fire stations in Watertown.
And if you leave your kid in abasket, they have to take it. I
was like, Okay, done.
And you said, I remember yousaid something like, that idea
got me through because you saidI would think about it, and then
say, I'm not quite to the firestation, so I'm gonna hang on.
(03:23):
Yeah, my daughter's 17. And Istill think
Tara Beckett (03:27):
I could leave her Watertown at a fire station.
Perfect. And your daughter isnow going off to college? Which
Yeah, crazy. Socan you talk a little bit about
where you are now as a mother?
Michelle Cove (03:44):
Yeah, I actually just wrote about this recently,
because, you know, those firstyears, man, when everybody's
like, time goes so fast. Youhave to treasure these very
special moments. And like, can Iswear on?
Tara Beckett (03:58):
Oh, absolutely.
Girl.
Unknown (04:01):
That did not go fast.
Everyday was like 10 days, itwas, you know, you would pull
out like your puppet show andyour sock puppet like all the
things in your activities. It'dbe like 10am with like, a data
fill. Yes. And no one tells youthat everyone's like, it's just,
you know, filled with littlegifts and precious treasures.
And for me, it was like really,when Risa started going to
(04:23):
school and getting her ownpersonality and stories and
wasn't physically attached to meand started becoming more her.
That's when things started topick up. And it's, you know, I
just I wish somebody had alsotold me that part like it's
okay, if you're not treasuringthese very special special.
first few years, yes. Yeah. Andnow it's 17. Like she's her best
(04:48):
self like it took 17 years tosort of know who she was and get
the confidence and have heropinions that are outside of my
Indians and become like superthoughtful and interesting. And
now she's leaving. Like, that'sthe heartbreak they come
together. And then as we'resupposed to we send them off,
but like now I really, reallylike being with her.
Tara Beckett (05:12):
Yes, yes. And so with her going off to college,
what's next for you? Is theresomething that you're changing
up? Or? You know, what's thatnext step for you?
Unknown (05:26):
Yeah, so I've had a few friends told me I could borrow
their kids. And I'm like, no,no, no. That's not what we're
looking for the next day. It'sjust like you to drop your kids
at my house. Yeah, I mean, thethe other interesting thing
about Risa is it's a one anddone right. She's an only child.
(05:48):
And so we're experiencing thefirst one out and the last one
out. So we're empty nestersreally quickly. And this is the
part where I'm glad that Ezra myhusband, and I have really
invested in liking each other.
Yes. And didn't put Risa firstall the time to our own
detriment in a relationshipbecause now like, it's us. So I
(06:09):
look forward to getting back tolike that phase where we're
like, dating and havingadventures and traveling. But I
do think, at the risk ofsounding noxious, like, I think
we did know that going through,I had a mom who was a divorce
attorney who really preach that,you know, keep that connection
(06:32):
alive. And so I tell that to myfriends, too. Like, don't wait
until the kids are grown up togo find that again. Yes. And
like granted, we annoy the hellout of each other, too. We're
not we're no perfect couple.
Right? We did get that we can'tsort of wait it out those hard
(06:53):
moments and try to find ourrelationship again after she
left the nest.
Tara Beckett (06:57):
Because that so it makes total sense. Yeah. Yeah.
And I spent I'm more in thelittle people little kiddos
phase. Yeah, it is super hard towork on your marriage because
you just got nothing left at theend of the day. So like you
said, nobody tells you that butI just thought having kids, we
(07:20):
would just get happier as acouple. As a job.
You just add more bliss, right?
Because Oh, yeah, that's whatkids are all the time. Bliss
machines.
Exactly, exactly. I
Unknown (07:39):
remember my mom right after I had Risa. I had a C
section. I was physicallymentally fried. And she my mom
came to stay with us. And she anight one, set a dinner table
and put candles out and said youand Ezra are gonna sit and I
have Risa and you two are gonna,like have a dinner date. And I
(08:01):
was so tired. I had tearspouring down my face in my
nightgown in the candle. Like itwas so awful, but it was her
trying to plant that seed ofeven when you're tired, like
just keep showing up for eachother. It'll come back.
Tara Beckett (08:16):
Yes. Okay, so when another Michelle Cove story is
coming back to me, which is whenI was so exhausted, you said
girl, you're gonna get that redlipstick out of your makeup bag,
and you're gonna put some on,and you're gonna exit the condo.
And I was like, I don't knowwhere I'm going. But I have
Michelle Cove (08:37):
being I don't even have lipstick. And I'm like
that was clearly my mom beenchanneled through me Yeah.
Tara Beckett (08:58):
So Michelle, you are now a senior communications
manager at experience camps. AndI would just love for you to
share a little bit about whatyour role is and what experience
camps is.
Unknown (09:11):
Yeah, so experienced cams is a national nonprofit
organization. And their job isto really champion the 5.6
billion grieving kids in ourcountry who will experience the
death of a parent or a siblingalike by age 18. I had no idea
(09:32):
the numbers were that high. Andso part of how they address this
is they have a network of nocost camps where your kids who
are in grieving families go fora week. And it's kind of the
intersection of grief and joy.
So kids are having sharingcircles and learning to navigate
their feelings around grief andgetting real deal with other
(09:53):
kids who get it and they'replaying volleyball and making
milkshakes and like how Bigs'mores and like the camp
experience, where I come in isgetting the word out experience
camps, but also really trying tochange the conversation around
grief. You know, we live in aculture that just doesn't talk
(10:14):
about it and know what to say.
And the things that people dotry to say in the name of
showing up are god awful. And Idon't blame them. Because
nobody's ever really taught ushow do you show up for someone?
So that's the part I'm mostfired up about? Is teaching
people through content, how tohave these conversations and
(10:34):
really show up for one another?
Tara Beckett (10:37):
And what would that look like? If you were to
talk about the things the wordthat you're getting out there of
how to talk about grief withsomebody else?
Unknown (10:48):
Yeah, so it's interesting. I talk to so many
of the kids, the campers and askthem like, What's your least
favorite thing that people sayto you when they hear about, you
know, the death in your family?
And their very least favoritething is when people say I'm
sorry, or I'm sorry for yourloss? And that's the thing we've
been trained as.
Tara Beckett (11:09):
Ally? Yeah, right.
Like, if not
Unknown (11:11):
that, what? And I think it's okay to say I'm sorry, but
that can't be. And now I've donemy job. Now, I've said that
thing, right? It's I'm sorry.
And that must have been reallyhard. Can you tell me about him?
Or what was your favorite memoryof her? Or, you know, what do
you remember? Or can you tell mea story? It's just sitting in
the space with whoever isgrieving? And they can say, no,
(11:33):
they can say I don't want totalk about it. But there's so
much loneliness to it. You know,everybody just wants to get away
fast from you like the sadperson, but just learning how to
sit with them and ask themquestions and just be with them.
It's there's no shortcut answer.
But but that's how we show up.
Tara Beckett (11:54):
Like, share it, like you said, sharing space.
And I'm just as you're talking,I just realized, like, it's not
about your discomfort, right?
It's about or making the persontalking comfortable. It's about
how do you sit with that otherperson?
Unknown (12:10):
Exactly. And I think it applies across the boards, if
we're talking about likedepression or anxiety, or
anybody facing any adversity,just sitting with them not
trying to fix it, or give themyour wisdom when nobody needs
your advice. Right. Just Thatsounds hard. I want to hear what
what's it like for you? I'm justlistening.
Tara Beckett (12:32):
Yeah, as you're talking to, I think one of my
least favorite in the realm ofsort of the depression and
adversity is the at leastcomment. Oh, right. So at least,
you know, XYZ and sort ofcancelling out whatever's
happening for that person.
Unknown (12:50):
Yeah, it least, you know, you got to know your dad a
little bit, right. At least yourmom died really quickly, you
know, and that's not comforting
Tara Beckett (12:59):
to know. Oh, no, no.
Unknown (13:10):
I came to it in terms of like, why I wanted to
Tara Beckett (13:13):
take this role.
Absolutely. Yes.
Unknown (13:16):
So my dad died when I was 20. I was a sophomore in
college, and I got a phone call.
He was healthy, he was vibrant,he was young, and a drunk driver
hit him in a car accident, andthe rug was just immediately
pulled out in a way I'd neverexperienced. And it was
impossible, you know, it wasimpossible that that would
(13:39):
happen. And it happened. And Iknow of what I speak at 20 of
watching people try to show upand not having the words or the
experience, I had a lot offriends kind of bail, because
they were just terrified, youknow, of I'm gonna make it
worse. And a lot of people whosaid I'm just gonna give her
space, you know, nobody wantsspace with her home alone with
(14:02):
her like hard feelings. And Ihad friends like really show up
in beautiful, extraordinary waysalso. And so part of it was
certainly that experience. And Iremember thinking naively, that
it would be better if you had toexperience the death of someone
(14:24):
you love for it to be over time,right? Where they got sick, and
you got to say goodbye, and itwas more prolonged and, and then
a few years ago, my mom died inthat way. And it's shitty.
There's no better way to like,you know, lose somebody that you
really love. And so, these areconversations that I'm really
(14:45):
interested in having. And no onewants to be a part of this club,
but it is kind of a club. Onceyou've experienced a loss. You
are tied forever to peoplewho've been through something
like that.
Tara Beckett (15:00):
Hmm. And when you talk about the people in your
life who showed up inextraordinary ways, is there a
particular person or moment thatjust really helped you or soothe
you?
Unknown (15:15):
Yes, I will share one of truly many Angeles got shout
out to you, if you're listeningwas a friend and colleague. And
she knew that lavender was likeone of my soothing things. And
she filled a bag with a littlelavender soft, soft blanket, and
(15:37):
a lavender spray bottle. So Icould spray it to smell like
lavender and put a little cardin and just came to the house
and left it by the door like noexpectation, no anything just
thinking of you. And she hadnever been through a death or
something that would teach herhow to know how to do that. It
was just a purely like intuitivespectacular moment. So that was
(16:03):
one and I'll tell you one otherone, because I also never got
it, which I forgot, which was myfriend Kavita reached out and
said, I didn't get to know yourmom. But knowing you I wish I
had, can we sit and look at ascrapbook and you share some
stories with me of her. And thatagain, being toward the thing
(16:23):
instead of reading from it wasso beautiful and comforting.
Tara Beckett (16:29):
I mean, that one just gave me some chills only
because not only because but itsounds like that friend was
really interested in her life.
Yeah, versus kind of thinkingthat the death was the only
thing.
Unknown (16:44):
Exactly. Who was this person who raised What am I
people?
Tara Beckett (16:56):
Can you speak to a little bit the gifts that you
have gotten from the death ofeither your mom or your dad?
Unknown (17:03):
Yeah, so I talk about I have a fabulous, fabulous
therapist. And at one point, sheasked me about the gifts that I
got after my dad died and fromthe accident. And my response
was what? Like, What an assholequestion. What happened? What it
(17:24):
was so purple, I just sat there.
And I was like, What do youmean? Like gifts that came after
the death or inches? Like no,no, what death? What a death
bring you as a gift that youknow this loss of your dad. And
I sat there and I just she said,just see what it'll come to you
to see if anything shows up? Andif no, no, and you gotta took me
(17:44):
off the hook. And I realizedthat God dammit, like, there
weren't gifts. And the biggestone was like, I don't take time
for granted. Right? Like, wedon't know how much time we
have. And it it just pared awayall the BS, like things I want.
I know how to really go forthem. I'm not as bothered by
(18:08):
like, what if I get a no or whatif I'm rejected? Or what if I
don't hear back? Like, I don'tcare? Like, yeah, it's really
rare. I don't and and gettingthis life is precious. And that
doesn't mean every moment isjoyful. But it is precious. And
we don't know how long we haveit.
Tara Beckett (18:43):
At one point on an MLK Day, you were talking about
the racial grief gap? And canyou speak to that a little bit?
Unknown (18:52):
Yeah, the racial grief gap just refers to the fact that
black and brown people areexperiencing much higher rates
of death than white kids are,especially when you know, when
we're looking at camp. And Ithink it's three times the rate
of experiencing the death of amom, and two times the
(19:13):
experience, you know, of losinga father. And we don't talk
about that a lot. And we're Ithink it's going to come out
more and more as we look atCOVID. And who is suffering and
who experienced death and whatcommunities had access to and
how did this happened? I thinkthat those kinds of
conversations are going to startto explode. And it's beyond time
(19:37):
for them and that we have tobuild structures and systems to
support these kids and thesefamilies because they're really
suffering.
Tara Beckett (19:45):
Yeah, I mean, just what you're talking about COVID
I thought the most privilege wehad is that we could work in our
homes. That's right. It was likein we were safe in so many ways
and we could continue to make anincome And so that divide during
the pandemic, I think just gotworse and worse.
Unknown (20:05):
For sure. And I think we're talking about right now,
like 200,000 kids who have beenorphaned, you know, and
caregivers and grandparents whoare going to have to step in and
raise these kids. It's a lot, alot what's coming down the pike
for us and mental health andkids and how it's gonna affect
that.
Tara Beckett (20:23):
Absolutely. And is that something that you're
already seeing at experiencecamps? That the aftermath of
that?
Unknown (20:31):
Yeah, it's interesting, we've seen for sure, obviously,
an uptick in COVID cases, inparticular. But really what
we're seeing is more and moreapplications that are showing
overdose, drug addiction,suicide, like we're seeing sort
of the secondary effects, Ithink that came out of COVID.
Tara Beckett (20:54):
Right, the isolation or the having to go to
work and in unsafe places, andis that well, we're kind of
thinking that the secondary issort of the coping that was
necessary to make it through.
Unknown (21:08):
Yeah. And who had access to any kind of, you know,
coping skills, or resources ortherapy or, you know, job loss
issues? And yeah, how are wegoing to show up for these kids?
You know, how are we going tosupport them? Like, we have 10
camps? Beyond that? What is theculture are we going to do for
(21:28):
these kids?
Tara Beckett (21:31):
Who, oh, to switch gears just a little bit, I think
there's just so much more to sayabout that. And I will just
fully admit that that is the endof my ability to speak to it,
which I think says a lot.
Unknown (21:47):
Yeah, I do think, you know, without being like, super
pluggy, if you go to experiencecamps.org, there's a whole
section on this particular issuethat people can read about and
get more educated and just basicinformation. So we do know what
we're dealing with. And I think,you know, the thing about camp
(22:08):
that I love the most is, it'sreally a place that normalizes
this experience. So if you area, you know, 10 year old kid and
your father died from anoverdose or an accident, or, you
know, it's impossible to sit inschool, we're no, no, you're the
weird kid, right? Or on yoursoccer team, or you're the freak
(22:30):
or, but like everyone, there'slike, yeah, what's new? Like,
yeah, we get it, you don't haveto go through the backdrop and
the isolation of that. Andthat's what I love most like,
you know, when you look around,everyone in that specific way is
just like you and that wasgetting to know them as like
potential friends and people.
Tara Beckett (23:00):
Was there a specific breaking point for you
that you're grateful for?
Unknown (23:08):
Oh, more than one.
Tara Beckett (23:11):
I mean, I've got time. I've got time.
Unknown (23:15):
Yeah, I one of the breaking points was after my dad
died, I went into shock for awhile without even knowing I
went into shock. I think Inumbed out and was just in that
fog that people go in was sortof riding through the days. And
(23:37):
my mom who was really good atgetting to the next place, the
next place the next place, andlike moving everybody through,
and here we go, and we're notgonna fall apart and very
quickly moved me and her into agear of like, we're gonna move
we're gonna get out of thistown, we're not going to be the
(23:57):
widow family. We're gonna, youknow, do this and that and get a
new life. And it's what held hertogether. I think it's how she
was built, and I at the time, soit is somewhat heroic. And
looking back, I really needed tofall apart. Like, I needed the
space. That was reallyappropriate, though, because I
(24:20):
just lost my dad, who's also afriend who I was getting to know
as an adult, it was appropriatefor me to fall apart. And
instead of taking that time, Isort of went with like,
Operation turn our lives. Right.
Yes. And like we're okay. Andwhat happened is, it was about
(24:40):
12 years later when my fallapart came and suddenly the
trauma hit in a hard way and itthrew me because I didn't know
why. And the reason why was Iwas safe, I was in a stable
place. All round me, there weresigns that said it's all it's
(25:01):
okay now to fall apart the timeis now. And when I say fall
apart, I mean crying around theclock, I had diarrhea, the
clock, I was a red hot mess. Iwas shaking a lot, I was having
to show up for work and was onlike one quarter capacity, like
everything came on done. Andit's what I needed to finally go
(25:23):
back and heal and startrebuilding. And I, as a parent
would never prolong that lookingback, like you fall apart when
you need to. And sometimes itgets stalled a little but 12
years now was too much. No.
Tara Beckett (25:42):
And in that journey of falling apart. Was
that when you met your husband?
Was that inside of that periodof time? Or is it were you like
when you were say I was finallysafe with people around me? Was
that part of your journey?
Unknown (25:55):
Yeah, so I was already with Ezra and thank God, like
had built a foundation of welike each other. And we're
together. Like, it'd be reallyhard to date me if I had
nothing. What was hard is Risamy daughter was really little
and needed a lot of care. And Iwas checked out for I would say,
(26:16):
a good two to three months,really without capacity to take
care of me or her. And that'swhen a partner husband is really
important. He just stepped upand showed up and was really
apparent, like the parent, youknow, I was kind of bare minimum
for those few months as I putmyself back together. And I am
(26:40):
grateful for that. That wouldnot have been doable with
somebody saying, Where's mydinner? Where's any of the
things? So, so safe, meaning Ihad somebody really supporting
me falling apart andunderstanding there's nothing to
do to really stop it. And theonly thing to do was bring your
A game empathy, complained toother people, I'm sure you feel
(27:03):
sad for yourself and frustrated,and where's my wife? But I don't
think I would have made itthrough being who I am now, had
I not been through that?
Tara Beckett (27:24):
When you talk about the way that your mom
needed to get through it, andhow you 12 years later got
through it in a very differentway. Can you speak a little bit
to what that did for yourrelationship?
Unknown (27:38):
It was not great at first for our relationship. You
know, she was the mom who reallystruggled when I cried or felt
sad as a kid. Right? Like it wasan ongoing theme for us. of, you
know, I joke about it now, buther response was like have a
cookie, let's buy a jumpsuit,let's get new magazines, right,
(27:59):
there was an answer to making itbetter, we're gonna cheer
ourselves up. And there was justnot a lot of room for sitting in
IQ, you know, as I call it. Andso I was pissed for a while.
When I came out of that, I wasreally bummed out that I didn't
have the I had a mom who lovedme and adored me and built
(28:22):
confidence in me and lucky in somany ways, and she was such a
strong character. But she wasnot a role model in that way.
And I had to grieve that, that Imissed that. And it highly,
highly informed how I parent
Tara Beckett (28:39):
just gonna say, yeah, yeah, changer, right.
Unknown (28:43):
And kind of healed myself by giving that to reason.
It wasn't easy, but there was nolet's have a cookie it was just
sitting at she cried and saying,Man, I can see this is really
hard for you. Yes. And it feltso uncomfortable. Because I
didn't have that experiencemyself. But it's what I needed
and wanted and could give toher. And I'm so grateful for
(29:05):
that to sort of break that chainof it.
Tara Beckett (29:07):
Yes. And I think she's just really lucky to have
that experience. And she's luckythat you had the break down.
Yeah. Because I she would havehad a very different parent.
Unknown (29:20):
Without question without question. And, you know,
I came back around with my momand was able to help her move
closer to have to sit in thehard feelings. I don't want to
say it was like one ad. But wehad good conversations about
that, and how, why she wasn'table to write our stories, keep
(29:41):
going back generations, andthere were very good reasons.
And so I think later it broughtus closer together, but I had to
be pissed for a little while.
Tara Beckett (29:51):
healthily, pissed.
I like it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,that's And were there any other
breaking points for you? Youthat really comprise your story.
Unknown (30:04):
Yeah, the other one that wasn't quite as extreme,
like an actual falling apart.
But it was definitely a shake upwas when I left I had started a
nonprofit in 2009 Is that true?
No. 14. And I was the founder ofmedia girls. And it was
(30:28):
something I cared about deeplyand led for six years. And
that's a whole story in itself.
But when I decided to leave thatand go back to storytelling, and
take what our culture wouldconsider a demotion, right to go
from CEO and hotshot leader andthis, like organization that
like women especially reallyresponded to, and it's all about
(30:51):
empowerment. And in leavingthat, before I knew what I was
going to do, before I knew whatjob I was going to find just
trying to have some faith thatthe right thing would appear. It
was really hard it was duringthe pandemic, and it was a good
six, seven months of not havinga job. And the ego hit. I'm
(31:12):
going from this like a womanwho's running her own show. And
she's empowering girls and lookat her and look what she's made.
And it's growing and to like,who am I without any job,
forget, like a cool job, like Igot nothing. And seeing how much
of my identity had gotten tiedto that, you know, and I I
(31:37):
struggled you know, I think thefirst few months were just me
hitting refresh our jobs, reallylooking like Now is there
anything that was already therewas it. And then, after a few
months, where I was actuallystarting to go a little crazy
(32:00):
from the job refresh. I justreally got like, you may never
have this time again, like youmay you may not have just space,
you know, of just time to likeactually work on something or
grow yourself or stretchyourself. You have it what do
you want to learn? What do youwant to get better at? And it
(32:20):
was like this, I want to findout my value outside of a job
like a real integrated value.
And I started doing like freeworkshops online and courses and
going there and really buildingout that what I do for a living
(32:44):
matters to me and I want to putgood in the world and it is not
who I am. Those are two verydifferent things. I'm 53, that
took a real loss.
Tara Beckett (32:58):
But you got there.
Right there, right? It'sfreedom. Yes, yes. As you're
speaking about that, my brainjust went to I'm in the phase of
the role of mother is so strongbecause my kids are little that
you realize, let alone lettingyour marriage disappear, letting
yourself disappear. And justbeing like, I am only in
(33:19):
existence because I am this thisperson to another human being,
rather than being like, Who areyou if you just exist.
Unknown (33:32):
And that just That's enough, right? That there is
value and just tear existing inthe world and being your
beautiful self. Like if youstrip away the roles and the
like contrived identities andthe job and the pod gifts, if
you took away all those, you'revaluable just because you're
valuable, you're worthwhilebecause you're you and
everything on that are justextensions of what you want to
(33:53):
put out into the world. And it'ssuch a different way to live
when you like really get that
Tara Beckett (33:59):
and something I always looked up to you because
it's like kind of I had thisolder sister in the condo it was
very it was very cool. And youwere way cooler than me.
Totally. But you I always lovedhow you just said it how it was
right like I had I stillstruggle with that just saying
(34:20):
what I mean to say without the Ithink you put it actually in the
thing about saying is Does thatmake sense? Or is that okay?
Those like little tags thatwomen tend to put on things I
just I loved I just lovedhearing you speak because that
was absent.
Unknown (34:37):
Yeah, I think authenticity is the hottest
thing in that world. Peopleshowing you who they really are
like, take me or leave me this.
This is me. I don't know what'sbetter than that. I love showing
up that way and I love it andother people. It's the thing I
find the most attractive is justyou're getting to see the real
me it's beautiful. I Love it
Tara Beckett (35:08):
Michelle, to wrap up today, I just asked all of my
guests and I'd love to ask youWhat does let perfect burn mean
for you?
Unknown (35:18):
Well, I love the phrase so much. It's so relevant. I
believe in our culture. Youknow, of all my many issues. I'm
sure. perfection itself isn'tone of them yet, but what I can
say is that in I guess just onthe heels of what I just said
(35:41):
about authenticity and watchingpeople and myself grow, like
that's where the juicy goodstuff is. I never want to stop
growing. You know, I knowthere's going to be more
Crossroads moments and I don'tdread them. I yearn for them
like that's how we find out whowe are imperfect says to me, I'm
done. I've arrived. I nailed it.
Like how friggin boring to me.
(36:05):
They're like, what are you goingto do now?
Tara Beckett (36:07):
Right, you've got how well and like you said, you
don't know how much time youhave. What have you had decades
and you've already arrived? Oh,shit, right,
Unknown (36:15):
right. or what have you have a month like no matter
what, yep, those growth likethat's why we're here is to grow
and learn who wants to be like Ihit done. Like, that is not the
point of why we're going around.
Tara Beckett (36:29):
I love that.
Michelle, this is it's alwaysgood time to talk to you. I'm so
glad this worked out. AndMichelle Cove and experience
camps and I just hope everyonewill check it out so that they
can learn more. And if you havesomebody a young person in your
life who is grieving. Idefinitely think go there and
just see if that's going to be afit for your child. What are the
(36:51):
ages?
Unknown (36:55):
Yep. So it's about age nine and up. Oh, great. Yeah. So
all the way like 1718 And thenyou can volunteer. It's a
lifelong.
Tara Beckett (37:08):
Well, thank you again, and we'll be in touch
Michelle, you're a blast. Thankyou.
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