April 5, 2022 • 41 mins
In this week's episode of Let Perfect Burn, I sit down with Cloteal L. Horne— an actor, a director and an educator who currently resides in Brooklyn, New York. Cloteal's most recent work was in Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye at The Huntington Theatre. This production was adapted for stage by Lydia R. Diamond and directed by Awoye Timpo.
Cloteal speaks to her deep-rooted belief that every time she walks into a room, whether it be as an artist or educator, that she has her ancestors, both known and unknown, at her back. She talks about the weight and the wonder of being able to be in a room creating art because of the blood, sweat, tears, joy and liberation strategies of Africans and African Americans. She tells me, “My life is a luxury. It isn’t perfect, but I certainly recognize I would not be where I am without that level of struggle and love. That there were so many acts of love that made me.”
Born the 7th out of 10 children, Cloteal was raised by her grandmother, whom she shares a name. From her grandmother, Cloteal learned there is a power in femininity, that there is sway by standing in her womanliness, that there is power in yielding and strength in a tender ferocity.
Cloteal asks us if her story matters. Cloteal asks us if she can find the spaces where she can sing the song of her mother or the secrets that were whispered in her ears as child. She tells us, “It’s not neutral, my lived experience, and how it shows up in a room.”
Cloteal paints multiple pictures of being a black woman in white spaces, including in the idea of "perfect". “As a black woman, perfect has been a white standard in some ways, as opposed to being who I really am— who I am with my grandmother, my cousins, my siblings, my friends. Feeling like I have to be this performative version of myself to be validated. So, for me, that is the perfect I want to burn.”
Some highlights in this Episode from Cloteal:
" It did make it harder in those rehearsal rooms with predominantly white casts. I had to keep saying, 'Can we examine this production of A Midsummer Night's Dream that is set in the 20's? I am a black woman and what does it mean to uproot this production and put it elsewhere?' So, you know, I fight those battles in a room. It's like, you can't just erase my black body. It's a black body."
" Power is not always maleness. It's, I am going to listen, I am going to attune, I am going to pause, I am going to pray, I am going to wait, I am going to gather."
" Where I'm at is where the party is at. And if it's not where THE party's at, it's where I'm at, and that's gotta be enough."
Don't Miss a Beat.
Follow my Instagram for news from me, Tara Beckett:
https://www.instagram.com/letperfectburn/
Website for Cloteal L. Horne:
https://www.cloteallhorne.com/
Original Music for Let Perfect Burn by Eleri Ward
https://www.instagram.com/eleriward/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tara Beckett (00:10):
Hi, I'm Tara Beckett and welcome back to let
perfect burn. In today'sepisode, I sit down with Khloe
teal Lee horn to talk about herdeep rooted belief that when she
enters a room, be it as an actoror as an educator. Her
ancestors, both known andunknown, are there at her Beck.
(00:36):
coetail talks about the journeyof coming into her own, finding
power in her femininity, faiththat there is a sway in her
womanliness and beingunrelenting in seeking out the
spaces where she can sing thesong of a black woman,
unforgiving in her authenticityand embracing all that makes her
(00:58):
whole Welcome back, everyone tolet perfect burn this morning.
I'm here with Khloe teal Leehorn. She's an incredible woman.
She I know her from BostonUniversity where she got her BFA
I was in the directing MFAprogram. And from there she went
(01:23):
on to get her MFA in acting fromBrown University and Trinity
rep. She has been in bazillionproductions all over the
regional theater circuit, andjust finished at the Huntington
Theatre Company and ToniMorrison's The Bluest Eye. So
hi, Khloe, Tia. Good morning.
Cloteal Lee Horne (01:42):
Hello, good morning.
Tara Beckett (01:46):
So nice to reconnect. So coetail, I went,
you know, on your website,trying to get a sense of where
you've been since we wereconnected. And I came across
something in your bio, where yousaid, you are gratefully
(02:07):
standing on the shoulders ofthose who have come before me. I
am a product of my grandmother'sprayers and my ancestors wildest
dreams. And I I mean, I just gotthe Goosebumps again. Right? And
can we just start there and tellus that story?
Cloteal Lee Horne (02:26):
Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I too, felt that
the goosebumps. You know, I thatis really important for me to
like, always put in my bio, butjust also just acknowledge that
like, my origin story is whatmakes me the artist, the human
being that I am and mygrandmother, right, my
(02:46):
grandmother's prayers. Mygrandmother, her name is
coattail McClay, and she raisedme and because I'm one of 10
kids, somehow serendipitouslylike of those 10 kids, I was the
one who got raised by mygrandmother, who I just so
happened to be named after. Andthat woman is like, I just know
(03:07):
that I would not be the humanbeing that I am today without
her. And that's really importantfor me to acknowledge. So
whenever I come in the room, I'mlike, a when people encounter my
name, they're encountering herfirst. And then when they meet
me, they're meeting her throughme. And, and that's really
(03:27):
important to me, because I thinkshe's amazing. Like, when I
think about like female rolemodels, like she in so many
ways, like, she, she just isshe's kind of like, She's
incredible. So
Tara Beckett (03:42):
you tell us a little bit about her so we can
feel her?
Cloteal Lee Horne (03:47):
Yeah. Well, so, you know, I think it's
interesting, because I thinkthat one of the things that
shaped my grandmother, andespecially as like, I, I get to
know her more as an adult ratherthan a child, I come to learn
that, like, you know, when shewas really young, she was like
an animal lover, like, like, shelived on a farm in Arkansas, and
(04:10):
her dad, you know, they used tofarm and used to, you know, take
care of chickens and stuff. Andshe would always like, go and
protect the little chickensbecause they would try to you
know, eat them. And so, shewould always be like protecting
the animals and just had thislike, this love for nature. And,
(04:32):
you know, she tells me storiesabout how she would always like
sneak off down near the riverand like, you know, try and like
read or like write poems orcreate stories. And so, I really
think that like that storytellerbug is something that I got from
her. And it's something thatshe, you know, wasn't able to
(04:53):
realize in the way that I'm ableto realize as an artist today,
but you know, she would writestories and I remember like,
growing up like we would writelittle stories for my brother
and like little books like Devinlearns to Devin learns Devin
loves his, his troll his toys.
Right? So my brother's name isDevin. And so we would write
(05:15):
little stories to help him learnto read with his name in it. And
so she just had this love forcreativity and, and still does
has this love for creativity.
She's actually visiting me rightnow. And this morning, I woke up
to her singing, she's got thisOh, lovely soprano voice and so
(05:36):
yeah, so she so it'sinteresting, because like she,
you know, love for creativityand for nature. And then she
became this probation officer,you know, so she's also like
this, like, rules, regulation,respect, but care for like
keeping family units togetherand trying to keep kids on the
right track. So that's in herretired life. But But yeah,
(06:02):
she's I just, I always refer toher as the backbone keeping me
straight. You know, she is, yep.
Yeah, she's my everything I callher about everything.
Tara Beckett (06:16):
So awesome. And the second part of that, and my
ancestors, wildest dreams.
Cloteal Lee Horne (06:25):
Yeah, you know, I've just been, that's
important to me, because nowI've kind of edited it. And I
realize I have to, like, updatethat, but of like, that I am the
embodiment of their dreams, likeeverything that it took for,
like my family legacy to like,push through and pull through to
(06:46):
arrive. And, and the dreams thatthey've had the dreams that they
weren't able to realize, likethat. They are coursing through
me at every moment. And Iremember when I was like,
auditioning for grad schools, amentor of mine was like, when
you walk in, you have yourancestors at your back, and you
(07:07):
just feel them pushing youforward. And that image in a
real way, and especiallythroughout, I've had like two
years to really sit with myselfand think deeply and connect
with family family zooms. Andjust to learn more about, you
know, my great greatgrandparents, my grandmother's
(07:29):
parents, and, and, and myparents, parents, and like all
that, right, so just to reallybe like, I know, and I kind of
think ancestrally, like, in alarger way to like, like, just
the black race like AfricanAmericans, Africans, like, just
(07:49):
understanding that I am in therooms that I'm able to be in
today because of their blood,sweat and tears and because of
their joy and their liberationstrategies, that that that's
what affords me the the life ofthe luxury like I'm life isn't
perfect, but it's certainly Irecognize that there's, I
(08:13):
wouldn't be where I'm at withoutthat level of struggle and love,
you know, that they were allacts of love that that made me
Tara Beckett (08:29):
You mentioned going into graduate school when
you are auditioning. Can youspeak a little bit about that?
Experience? You know, looking atyour bio, I saw a lot of being
in productions of Shakespeare.
And did you find that as anactress? That you were playing
roles written for youspecifically as a black woman?
(08:50):
Or did you find yourself nothaving that kind of access? So
just love to know yourexperience?
Cloteal Lee Horne (08:59):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I was always,
like, you know, given thoseaccess to like, access to be
like, to bring my ancestorsWell, I'm always given the
opportunity to bring myancestors on stage with me,
right? Because they'reeverywhere I'm at. But like, you
know, to really tell blackstories like is not something
(09:21):
that was always offered right?
And now I'm excited becausethere's so much more material
and it's being produced more,but actually when I think back
to like my time at BU I'll goback to undergrad, you know,
thinking about my experience ofI think first and intimate
apparel and then and as inMarisol with you, you know
(09:41):
getting to play you know, blackwomen or like just being able to
connect with language from youknow, that, that fit in my mouth
a little more, you know, yep.
And that I could really lean andbring my full self too. So I
(10:02):
feel like those were like thefirst experiences that I've had.
And I've been very lucky to getto do more roles, you know, with
all black casts or global dirtycasts and, and even with
Shakespeare, I mean, I thinkthere's like this veil of
whiteness, or like, you know,that can kind of get cloaked
(10:25):
onto Shakespeare. And, you know,people really want to hold tight
to that, but I really I don't, Idon't see it that way. You know,
there's like, a universal truthof humanity that I think shapes
is really getting after. And so,you know, every time I did when
(10:45):
I did my Porsche, when I did,yeah, it was, it was a black
woman. Right. Right. And I wasvery aware of that. I do think
that it did make it harder inthose rehearsal rooms, with
predominantly white cast, youknow, to really be like, What
can we examine this productionof A Midsummer Night's Dream
(11:09):
that set in the 20s? And I'm ablack woman, and can we talk
about, like, you know, can we doa little more dramaturge? You
know, drama? Yeah, rouse Yeah,what it means to uproot this
production and put it elsewhere.
So you know, fighting thosebattles in the room or, or
trying to bring a moreauthenticity to the world about
being like, alright, we can'tjust erase my black body, it's a
(11:32):
black body, and the black malebody, you know, so let's now
there's so many stories to tell
Tara Beckett (11:45):
the production that clue teal and I, we
mentioned earlier with Marisol,it was one of my favorite
productions I've ever directed.
Because as a cast, I feel likewe really push the boundaries of
that theater, even of just, youknow, reversing the stage and
making this apocalypticdestruction zone in the pretty
(12:09):
pristine seats of that Calder.
But theater, right? That therewas something really real about
taking the theater away fromvery comfortable space and
pushing the boundaries of whatthat meant. You know, you played
(12:32):
the angel for Marysville. And Iwas going back to my script and
one of your texts was Ikickstarted your heart Marisol.
I wired your nervous system. Ipushed your fetal blood in the
right direction, and turn thefoam and your infant lungs to
oxygen. When you were six, andyour parents were fighting, I
(12:54):
helped you pretend you wereunderwater, that you were a cold
blooded fish in the bottom ofthe black ocean far away and
save. I was there when racistran you out of school at 10.
Screaming and Oh, I love
Cloteal Lee Horne (13:10):
so good. I'm over here crying.
Tara Beckett (13:14):
And that was you girl. That was easy. So I think
we heard about your grandmother.
And in some ways, it sounds likeshe was your angel. She was your
guardian angel. Just like youare for Marisol. And I'm just
wondering if there's anybody,and maybe it's your grandmother
again, but anybody that kept yousafe as you were growing up or
(13:35):
kept you safe as you were goingfrom your young adulthood into
your more adult in some waysgrown MFA and onto New York.
Cloteal Lee Horne (13:47):
Yeah. Oh, I love that. And thank you for
like reactivating that text forme because it literally makes me
emotional. And I and I'm gladthat you're like, broadening
that thought, right? have, youknow, because I've had many
angels, like, I just know, thatlike, I wouldn't be anywhere
that I am today without, youknow, these angels who are like,
(14:13):
who know better for me than Iknew at the time and like, just
kind of guided me and, you know,I'm someone who I've been
blessed to have many mentors andlike, you know, it started with
my grandmother, but also myaunt. My Aunt Yvette was
certainly another like Angellike she just was, she taught me
(14:34):
the spirit of joy, right? If mygrandmother taught me like
creativity and rigor and hardwork and what it means to be,
you know, to be a thinkingbeing. My aunt taught me about
joy and liberation. And I thinkthat that I think a lot about
(14:54):
her you know, both I'm lucky tohave my grandmother and my aunt
still alive, but when I, I don'tknow, when I think about like,
just her, her levels of joy,like it's as a, I find it
sometimes hard to allow myselfto experience that kind of
pleasure and enthusiasm, right,there's something and like to be
(15:20):
like, I can point back to ablack woman in my history who
just was very, very liberatedand like, you know, was always
laughing, playing games and, andso I so on a personal level, I
would say that she's someoneelse who like keeps kickstarting
my, you know, then pointing mein my heart, right. And
(15:44):
reminding me of that, like, thepledge like that pleasure is
important, especially as a blackwoman, you know, like, I'm like,
I can embrace all of that. Soshe's one and then I have this
incredible mentor Michelle Shea,who's this brilliant actor,
director, educator, and originalAug, both Sony and like, she
(16:07):
originated a few of those roleswithin the Wilson canon. And I
think she too, you know, liketeaching me the power of
femininity, the power of like,you know, just standing in my in
my womanliness, and the sway ofthat, you know, the power of the
(16:27):
yielding, and also the command,you know, the commander then?
Tara Beckett (16:43):
Can we go a little farther with that power? And
like, what does that look like?
And, you know, if you were todescribe it for our listeners,
I've just, What is that powerthat Khloe teal comes into that
room with?
Cloteal Lee Horne (16:57):
Oh, my gosh, um, yeah, I mean, well, when I
Well, as I feel it in my bodyright now, right, I just feel
like there's a warmness of myheart, my like, there's a, it's
a, a tender ferocity, it's justlike, I am not afraid to be, you
know, wildly imaginative,creative, like, you know,
(17:22):
finding solutions, both caringfor right, caring for the
communities that I'm with, butalso caring for myself, and
understanding that those twothings are one in the same. Just
embracing that wildness and,like trusting my intuition that
I'm now learning that like,power, it's not this male like,
(17:45):
you know, it's not necessary.
It's not maleness, always,right. It's not just like, I'm
going to assert and dominate,it's, I'm going to listen, I'm
going to tune I'm going topause, I'm going to pray, I'm
going to wait, I'm going togather, I'm going to eat right,
like, I'm going to nurture,it's, it's all of those things,
and, you know, and more. And so,I think that that's like, when
(18:10):
any room that I am in, whetherI'm like creating it as a
director or as an educator, youknow, holding, you know, spaces
where young minds and bodies canlike feel their power, or
whether or not I'm like, youknow, with, you know, with with
my partner or whether or not I'myou know, like with my family,
like just understanding thatbeing in tune is actually is the
(18:34):
greatest power, right, listeningto myself, and declaring
boundaries where I need to, andalso being like, Okay, I know I
needed that boundary to protectme then. But maybe now I can go
on the adventure that this isoffering to me
Tara Beckett (19:03):
if you were to look at coming out of your
grandmother's home, and intothis place that you are now can
you think of things you shedthat actually made you who you
are today in a really powerful,great way, even if that shedding
was painful.
Cloteal Lee Horne (19:22):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah. I mean, I think I have hadto, you know, like many people
like, like, my family story is,I used to attach a lot of shame
to it, right? Because I wentfrom like, Sam being growing up
in San Diego being one of 10kids, like, you know, parents
(19:42):
who have struggled with drug andalcohol lism. And, you know,
domestic violence and I wassheltered from a lot of that.
But there's been survivor'sguilt, right. There's been like
this huge amount of life I'm inthese rooms people are cheering
me on and expecting great thingsfrom me. But sometimes, you
(20:07):
know, I would feel like, Oh, I'ma, like, do I deserve this?
Right? Like this, like thisfeeling of like, not enough. And
I would say like, especiallywhen I think back to my time at
Boston University, which waslike, my first exodus from like,
my family origin story, youknow, like, in a major way, 3000
(20:28):
miles away, in a totally newplace that's predominantly
white, very moneyed, you know,environment. And, and being
like, Oh, does my story matter?
Right, does, like, can I tellthis? Can I sing the song of my
(20:49):
mother in this space? Can I tellthe secrets that were whispered
in my ears from my sisters andhave and share those in this
space? And have that be okay,and accepted? Right, so like
this. So I've had to shed yearsof like, feeling guilty for
surviving. And it wasn't until Igot to grad school where, you
(21:12):
know, it was a very challengingtime for me. But I had to
realize that I wasn't the onlyone who survived, right, that it
was so self centered of me tothink that just because my
siblings aren't living the lifethat I live, that they didn't
survive in their own way, right?
Like, yes, my siblings areincredibly well adjusted. And,
(21:32):
and, and chasing their dreams,and, you know, entitled to their
struggles, like many others are,but they're living you know,
they're seeking furtherliberation in the same way that
I am. Our circumstances weredifferent. But so bad to like,
shed those thoughts of like, oh,survivor's guilt, you know, I
(21:56):
had to shed imposter syndrome,right? Of like, you don't
deserve to be here. Why you?
Right? When it's like, I'm oneof 10 kids, but only me and my
youngest brother, were raisedentirely by my grandmother, and
there are so many, I thinkthat's why I became a
(22:16):
storyteller, because I'm, Iwanted to know, why. Why me, you
know, like, how did I get tothis? How was I so fortunate
and, and, you know, feeling likeI was set apart, but knowing
that that there's no hierarchyactually, like, that's what I've
(22:36):
had to come to learn thatthere's no hierarchy in the
lived experience. It's justeverybody is living their
experience. And our humanitymakes us equal. So yeah, so and
also, knowing I've had to, Iused to think that, you know,
(22:57):
that I was born from pain, or,like, you know, my parents
story, but actually, I was bornfrom love, like my parents,
like, they loved each other.
Like, I'll, I often share theirwedding photo, because when I
look at that, I'm like, Oh, mygosh, like, they were an
incredible partner ship, youknow, they have an incredible
(23:19):
union. And and in many ways, I'mlike, oh, I want that aliveness
within a partnership that theyshared enough to birth 10 Kids,
right, right, and enough to staytogether for like, 20 someone
years and, and I want thosethings, I will make different
choices, and already have madedifferent choices. But that I
(23:42):
was born from love. And that,like owning that and accepting
that, like allows me to movethrough the world. integrating
all of myself, and all of myfamily histories that make me
me.
(24:04):
Yeah. But finally, when I got toBrown for my MFA, I just, I was
like, this education system isvery broken. There's a lot of
like, like, especially I waslike, God, I don't know how to
(24:26):
teach my black body, you don'teven know how to welcome my
experience into the room for meto show up authentically, to
like be the artists to teach mefrom the place that I am. And I
have since learned that that'spart of my responsibility, right
to have the courage to alwaysbring that into the room and
(24:48):
acknowledge that when I'm in theroom, but also I've acknowledged
that there are certain thingswithin the environment that that
that make that possible or candiscourage that. And so I got
very upset So with like, whatenvironment? Do I need as a, as
a as an artist to be my bestself? And what, what rooms? Can
(25:10):
I create, you know, to bothfoster that for myself, but also
bring that into other younglearners? Right? I, I don't
think of I don't call them, youknow, the folks that I'm like,
leading their learningexperience, I don't call them
students, I call them learnersbecause, and I call them and I
(25:31):
don't really call myself ateacher, I call myself a lead
learner, because it's very clearto me that, like, I'm learning,
they're learning, how are welearning together, right. And
that allows me to takeaccountability in a way that's
like, that I didn't watchcertain teachers take
accountability for right. Solike, they, I when failings
(25:52):
happened, I watched them doubledown and assert your power in
ways. And whereas I'm like, Yes,call me in, I will mess up, I'm
going to let you know right now.
Like, I will fail you. But also,like, through that failing, you
will learn things. And alsothrough that failing, I will
learn things and hopefully webuilt enough trust in
(26:13):
relationship in this learner tolearn our relationship that I
can learn and recover with. Sowe can fix it in this moment,
right? So, so it's reallyshifted my philosophy with how I
hold spaces, and how I you know,engage in that. And so I've been
(26:35):
teaching, I was teaching at NYUfor like, the past, like year
and a half. And that, and that'sbeen an important journey to me,
but I also have been like, Oh,these academic environments are
not, I don't, they're not what Iwant them to be. And I don't
know. You know, there's so manyways to adjust to that, right, I
(26:58):
can either continue to change itfrom within, create, or create
other spaces adjacent to it thatlike, you know, liberate me and
others. So it's, so I'm in themiddle of like, figuring out
what's the how do I honor thateducator and me, the person who
loves to build sacred learningenvironments? You know, that's,
(27:22):
that's, that's really importantto me, right? How do we create
the conditions where we can beour best possible self, it took
me a long while to even have ateacher of color, let alone a
black teacher. Kind of, like,you know, who felt? Yeah, who
could like really pour into meand, and so it's not neutral,
(27:45):
you know, my lived experienceand how that shows up in a room.
And I, and it also gives me deepgratitude for all the teachers
who both like, supported me, andalso, you know, we're difficult
to navigate because it's justbreeded, you know, more
awareness. And, and I'm veryaware that there will be there
(28:09):
will come a time as I continuemy like, you know, journey as an
educator, that, that folks willcome along and build better
models, right. Like, that's thehope. And, and I welcome that,
you know, and not to be attachedto that, that power struggle
that sometimes happens inacademia.
Tara Beckett (28:37):
It's such a ridiculous bummer that Toni
Morrison's Bluest Eye closedbecause of COVID. Early. Yeah.
But like, you know, you and Iwere chatting before the
recording, it's this new world,right? Where we have to be
really kind of ready for thingsto disappoint, or to stop before
(28:58):
we're ready. And is thereanything about being an artist
during COVID, that has reallypushed your boundaries? I
Cloteal Lee Horne (29:08):
think that it did push my limits by way of
like, my dream capacity, right?
Because I had realized thatlike, in the middle of that
pandemic, I was like, Oh, well,what do I really want? What do I
really want versus what do I sayI want because it seems like the
thing that I should want,because everybody else wants it,
and people want it for me andall of this stuff. So it really
(29:31):
like it pushed my boundaries,like to push my imagination,
right? And like, and to be like,Oh, maybe. I don't know. Maybe I
don't have to go about myartistry in this way. Maybe New
York isn't the epicenter eventhough I love New York, right?
It just really, it encouraged meto like get more specific about
(29:56):
how I want to to shift my, mythat like superpower that I
think many artists have, whichis to be adaptable, right? To be
flexible, I think those arethings that like we have to have
as humans. And as artists, youknow, we really have to have it.
But it also like, was like,Girl, let me know what I was
(30:18):
going to do and what I was notgoing to do. And I just did not,
there are certain things I willnot put up with anymore. But
yeah, but it also pushed myboundaries by way of like,
really knowing that I'm enough,right? Like this, like, being
like, oh, what happens? Like,I'm still not on social media,
(30:41):
it's something that like, I'vejust kind of like cycled myself
away from because this sort ofcompare contrast, this kind of
like, who booked what, whodidn't book what, who got, you
know, like that sort of it'ssent. Comparing and contrasting
that can happen, you know, forartists and that, like, I
sometimes found myself fallinginto, like, it just taught me
(31:04):
that like, okay, where I'm at iswhere the party is, is like,
Tara Beckett (31:12):
I love that. It's like,
Cloteal Lee Horne (31:15):
you know, it's it's, it's not where the
parties that it's where myparty's at. And that's got to be
enough. And, and that has beenlike, that's a boundary that I
didn't even know that existed. Ithought I was like, Oh, of
course, like, I you know, I'mgood. And then to be like, Oh,
(31:35):
well, who am I without, youknow, incessantly booking Who am
I without? You know, I don'tknow, who am I without those
trappings of like, I'm an artistbooked and blessed, you know?
(32:03):
Okay, I do have one life, how amI living it as fully as I
possibly can, becauseeventually, if, if things, you
know, if they go the way Iintend them to, then I will be
building space for, you know, afamily and, you know, little
ones and all of that, but younever know, it's that, you know,
(32:29):
and living with that level ofuncertainty. And knowing that
it's pervasive in all areas ofmy life. I've chosen to be an
artist is like, Hey, girl.
Tara Beckett (32:40):
And it just keeps coming. That's I've tried to get
better with not thinking there'sa finish line, honestly.
Cloteal Lee Horne (32:47):
Yeah. Yeah.
Tara Beckett (32:49):
Riding the waiting the waves in a boat that keeps
changing sizes.
Cloteal Lee Horne (32:55):
Oh my gosh, absolutely. Because it does.
It's like it's like you're likeup and this is okay. Champions
adjust. You just gotta keepadjusting just
Tara Beckett (33:08):
so close, he'll, whether it's your artistry or
otherwise, like, what's next foryou?
Cloteal Lee Horne (33:15):
Oh, I think I am interested in in like
embracing. There's, there's a,there's a pause coming up right
now. There's like something inmy like, life that I just know,
I need to. I don't, it's hard toarticulate because it's not an
(33:39):
artistic thing. It's definitelya personal thing. Like, I think
that the past few processes thatI've been a part of, as an
artist have illuminated some,like, ways of being that I want
to shift within myself or likethat I want to cultivate
practices around, you know, andI think that I'm just looking
(34:03):
forward to like, having somespace to like, be with myself.
I, I don't know, I I missmyself, which is a strange, I
don't know, feels like a strangething to say but, but like,
there's been a lot of change.
And I don't think I've gotten tolike check in with myself for a
(34:24):
sustained period of time oflike, what's really happening,
what's not happening, right?
Like, what do you want to behappening? So I'm looking
forward to going into the cocoona little bit, whether it be for
like, you know, even if it'sthree weeks, even if it's a
(34:47):
month, even if it's the entire Idon't know, but I am just I feel
within myself that it's like Ikind of even if it means I have
to say no to a project or youknow, just I have to figure that
out because something isgrowing. And I don't know, like,
what it quite is. Yeah, Ihaven't stood still enough to be
(35:11):
able to, like, you know, let herout. Yeah, to let her out and to
clock in and be like, what doyou need to say? How can I
support you? Like, what do youneed from me? And just be like,
I need you to sit your ass downsomewhere, like, Just be still
for a second, you know? Andlike, and I totally respect
that. So yeah, that's what youneed. I'm going to give that to
(35:31):
her. But something is cooking.
And, yeah, it's, I'm excitedabout it. But I, but I don't
know what it is. And I think
Tara Beckett (35:41):
I love them.
Cloteal Lee Horne (35:42):
Okay with that. Yeah,
Tara Beckett (35:44):
it feels I it just feels brave, to be honest. Like,
it just feels brave, because Ithink it is way easier for you
to just keep booking gigs andproductions and teaching, you
know, just keep running. That,you know, it's hard work, but
it's a little bit emotionallyeasier. Am I putting words in
(36:05):
your mouth?
Cloteal Lee Horne (36:05):
No, you're not? Yeah, I think it is.
Because you're, I find that asan artist, I'm of service to the
larger project as opposed whichand ultimately, it serves my
life, right. But I'm, I justsomething is looking to crack
inside me. And I just, I thinkit means a little time and
(36:27):
space. And it didn't necessarilyhave a full time to crack during
the pandemic, because I waslucky enough to be working and
to be doing other things that itbut I just need to sit myself
down somewhere
Tara Beckett (36:54):
go to Oh, this one's a good one. This just made
my day and just filled my cup.
And before we end, I would lovefor you to speak to what let
perfect burn brings up in you.
Cloteal Lee Horne (37:08):
Oh, oh my gosh. It um Well, it, it feels
like liberation. It feels like,you know, like all the old
versions of myself. And I thankthem for helping get me to where
I'm at. But but you know, it's,uh, but they've got it. But I've
(37:35):
been such a perfectionist, youknow, and like, I mean, it can
it serves me but also it doesn'tright, like getting, like, I
think that that's where I'mlike, I just need to go
somewhere and sit down. BecauseI have built this machine, this
thing that like works reallywell, very well oiled, like does
(37:57):
the thing. But it's but there'ssomething not fully baked yet.
And I think that that I'm awareof like, it's so simple, but
like I've done enough self tapesto know that my perfectionism
does not serve me because Igotta get it right. And I got to
get it right. And I got, youknow, and and I think I'm just
(38:20):
really like just burn that justlet it go. Like find the
freedom, like follow impulse andintuition. Yield instead of do
like just all those things. Soto me let perfect burn is you
know, that like this image ofmyself, like just being able to,
(38:43):
like, let that image fade awayto like, allow what actually is
right, the contradictions, themultiplicity of it, the sort of
depth of it, you know, and in mycase, it's like, if I can
continue to just, like, justhonor my like, for me, it comes
(39:08):
by way of like, honoring myreal, like my story, you know,
I've done so much of like,trying to fit into very
whitespaces hiding my cousinsand all of them, or like not
even hiding them but like justnot being able to, like, be my
full self. You know, and I thinkthat you know, as a black woman
(39:35):
perfect has meant has like beena white standard in some ways,
as opposed to like, just who Ireally am, you know who I am
with my grandmother, I am withmy cousin too. I am with my
siblings, and my friends, ratherthan feeling like I have to be
(39:55):
this performative version ofmyself to To exists to be
validated, you know so to melike that's the biggest like let
perfect burn let back down
Tara Beckett (40:18):
Well, it's been a pleasure and I can't wait to
watch you sit still and grow inwhatever way that means whether
I can catch you in anotherproduction or you know, hear
about your teaching or hearabout the next book you write
about taking your power as ablack woman. I mean, all those
(40:39):
things seem totally feelappropriate. Yeah. It's been
amazing. Thank you so much fortaking the time to go to
Cloteal Lee Horne (40:49):
thank you so great to reconnect and more
soon. Yeah, of course. Bye.
Hi, I'm Tara Beckett and welcome back to let
perfect burn. In today'sepisode, I sit down with Khloe
teal Lee horn to talk about herdeep rooted belief that when she
enters a room, be it as an actoror as an educator. Her
ancestors, both known andunknown, are there at her Beck.
(00:36):
coetail talks about the journeyof coming into her own, finding
power in her femininity, faiththat there is a sway in her
womanliness and beingunrelenting in seeking out the
spaces where she can sing thesong of a black woman,
unforgiving in her authenticityand embracing all that makes her
(00:58):
whole Welcome back, everyone tolet perfect burn this morning.
I'm here with Khloe teal Leehorn. She's an incredible woman.
She I know her from BostonUniversity where she got her BFA
I was in the directing MFAprogram. And from there she went
(01:23):
on to get her MFA in acting fromBrown University and Trinity
rep. She has been in bazillionproductions all over the
regional theater circuit, andjust finished at the Huntington
Theatre Company and ToniMorrison's The Bluest Eye. So
hi, Khloe, Tia. Good morning.
Cloteal Lee Horne (01:42):
Hello, good morning.
Tara Beckett (01:46):
So nice to reconnect. So coetail, I went,
you know, on your website,trying to get a sense of where
you've been since we wereconnected. And I came across
something in your bio, where yousaid, you are gratefully
(02:07):
standing on the shoulders ofthose who have come before me. I
am a product of my grandmother'sprayers and my ancestors wildest
dreams. And I I mean, I just gotthe Goosebumps again. Right? And
can we just start there and tellus that story?
Cloteal Lee Horne (02:26):
Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I too, felt that
the goosebumps. You know, I thatis really important for me to
like, always put in my bio, butjust also just acknowledge that
like, my origin story is whatmakes me the artist, the human
being that I am and mygrandmother, right, my
(02:46):
grandmother's prayers. Mygrandmother, her name is
coattail McClay, and she raisedme and because I'm one of 10
kids, somehow serendipitouslylike of those 10 kids, I was the
one who got raised by mygrandmother, who I just so
happened to be named after. Andthat woman is like, I just know
(03:07):
that I would not be the humanbeing that I am today without
her. And that's really importantfor me to acknowledge. So
whenever I come in the room, I'mlike, a when people encounter my
name, they're encountering herfirst. And then when they meet
me, they're meeting her throughme. And, and that's really
(03:27):
important to me, because I thinkshe's amazing. Like, when I
think about like female rolemodels, like she in so many
ways, like, she, she just isshe's kind of like, She's
incredible. So
Tara Beckett (03:42):
you tell us a little bit about her so we can
feel her?
Cloteal Lee Horne (03:47):
Yeah. Well, so, you know, I think it's
interesting, because I thinkthat one of the things that
shaped my grandmother, andespecially as like, I, I get to
know her more as an adult ratherthan a child, I come to learn
that, like, you know, when shewas really young, she was like
an animal lover, like, like, shelived on a farm in Arkansas, and
(04:10):
her dad, you know, they used tofarm and used to, you know, take
care of chickens and stuff. Andshe would always like, go and
protect the little chickensbecause they would try to you
know, eat them. And so, shewould always be like protecting
the animals and just had thislike, this love for nature. And,
(04:32):
you know, she tells me storiesabout how she would always like
sneak off down near the riverand like, you know, try and like
read or like write poems orcreate stories. And so, I really
think that like that storytellerbug is something that I got from
her. And it's something thatshe, you know, wasn't able to
(04:53):
realize in the way that I'm ableto realize as an artist today,
but you know, she would writestories and I remember like,
growing up like we would writelittle stories for my brother
and like little books like Devinlearns to Devin learns Devin
loves his, his troll his toys.
Right? So my brother's name isDevin. And so we would write
(05:15):
little stories to help him learnto read with his name in it. And
so she just had this love forcreativity and, and still does
has this love for creativity.
She's actually visiting me rightnow. And this morning, I woke up
to her singing, she's got thisOh, lovely soprano voice and so
(05:36):
yeah, so she so it'sinteresting, because like she,
you know, love for creativityand for nature. And then she
became this probation officer,you know, so she's also like
this, like, rules, regulation,respect, but care for like
keeping family units togetherand trying to keep kids on the
right track. So that's in herretired life. But But yeah,
(06:02):
she's I just, I always refer toher as the backbone keeping me
straight. You know, she is, yep.
Yeah, she's my everything I callher about everything.
Tara Beckett (06:16):
So awesome. And the second part of that, and my
ancestors, wildest dreams.
Cloteal Lee Horne (06:25):
Yeah, you know, I've just been, that's
important to me, because nowI've kind of edited it. And I
realize I have to, like, updatethat, but of like, that I am the
embodiment of their dreams, likeeverything that it took for,
like my family legacy to like,push through and pull through to
(06:46):
arrive. And, and the dreams thatthey've had the dreams that they
weren't able to realize, likethat. They are coursing through
me at every moment. And Iremember when I was like,
auditioning for grad schools, amentor of mine was like, when
you walk in, you have yourancestors at your back, and you
(07:07):
just feel them pushing youforward. And that image in a
real way, and especiallythroughout, I've had like two
years to really sit with myselfand think deeply and connect
with family family zooms. Andjust to learn more about, you
know, my great greatgrandparents, my grandmother's
(07:29):
parents, and, and, and myparents, parents, and like all
that, right, so just to reallybe like, I know, and I kind of
think ancestrally, like, in alarger way to like, like, just
the black race like AfricanAmericans, Africans, like, just
(07:49):
understanding that I am in therooms that I'm able to be in
today because of their blood,sweat and tears and because of
their joy and their liberationstrategies, that that that's
what affords me the the life ofthe luxury like I'm life isn't
perfect, but it's certainly Irecognize that there's, I
(08:13):
wouldn't be where I'm at withoutthat level of struggle and love,
you know, that they were allacts of love that that made me
Tara Beckett (08:29):
You mentioned going into graduate school when
you are auditioning. Can youspeak a little bit about that?
Experience? You know, looking atyour bio, I saw a lot of being
in productions of Shakespeare.
And did you find that as anactress? That you were playing
roles written for youspecifically as a black woman?
(08:50):
Or did you find yourself nothaving that kind of access? So
just love to know yourexperience?
Cloteal Lee Horne (08:59):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I was always,
like, you know, given thoseaccess to like, access to be
like, to bring my ancestorsWell, I'm always given the
opportunity to bring myancestors on stage with me,
right? Because they'reeverywhere I'm at. But like, you
know, to really tell blackstories like is not something
(09:21):
that was always offered right?
And now I'm excited becausethere's so much more material
and it's being produced more,but actually when I think back
to like my time at BU I'll goback to undergrad, you know,
thinking about my experience ofI think first and intimate
apparel and then and as inMarisol with you, you know
(09:41):
getting to play you know, blackwomen or like just being able to
connect with language from youknow, that, that fit in my mouth
a little more, you know, yep.
And that I could really lean andbring my full self too. So I
(10:02):
feel like those were like thefirst experiences that I've had.
And I've been very lucky to getto do more roles, you know, with
all black casts or global dirtycasts and, and even with
Shakespeare, I mean, I thinkthere's like this veil of
whiteness, or like, you know,that can kind of get cloaked
(10:25):
onto Shakespeare. And, you know,people really want to hold tight
to that, but I really I don't, Idon't see it that way. You know,
there's like, a universal truthof humanity that I think shapes
is really getting after. And so,you know, every time I did when
(10:45):
I did my Porsche, when I did,yeah, it was, it was a black
woman. Right. Right. And I wasvery aware of that. I do think
that it did make it harder inthose rehearsal rooms, with
predominantly white cast, youknow, to really be like, What
can we examine this productionof A Midsummer Night's Dream
(11:09):
that set in the 20s? And I'm ablack woman, and can we talk
about, like, you know, can we doa little more dramaturge? You
know, drama? Yeah, rouse Yeah,what it means to uproot this
production and put it elsewhere.
So you know, fighting thosebattles in the room or, or
trying to bring a moreauthenticity to the world about
being like, alright, we can'tjust erase my black body, it's a
(11:32):
black body, and the black malebody, you know, so let's now
there's so many stories to tell
Tara Beckett (11:45):
the production that clue teal and I, we
mentioned earlier with Marisol,it was one of my favorite
productions I've ever directed.
Because as a cast, I feel likewe really push the boundaries of
that theater, even of just, youknow, reversing the stage and
making this apocalypticdestruction zone in the pretty
(12:09):
pristine seats of that Calder.
But theater, right? That therewas something really real about
taking the theater away fromvery comfortable space and
pushing the boundaries of whatthat meant. You know, you played
(12:32):
the angel for Marysville. And Iwas going back to my script and
one of your texts was Ikickstarted your heart Marisol.
I wired your nervous system. Ipushed your fetal blood in the
right direction, and turn thefoam and your infant lungs to
oxygen. When you were six, andyour parents were fighting, I
(12:54):
helped you pretend you wereunderwater, that you were a cold
blooded fish in the bottom ofthe black ocean far away and
save. I was there when racistran you out of school at 10.
Screaming and Oh, I love
Cloteal Lee Horne (13:10):
so good. I'm over here crying.
Tara Beckett (13:14):
And that was you girl. That was easy. So I think
we heard about your grandmother.
And in some ways, it sounds likeshe was your angel. She was your
guardian angel. Just like youare for Marisol. And I'm just
wondering if there's anybody,and maybe it's your grandmother
again, but anybody that kept yousafe as you were growing up or
(13:35):
kept you safe as you were goingfrom your young adulthood into
your more adult in some waysgrown MFA and onto New York.
Cloteal Lee Horne (13:47):
Yeah. Oh, I love that. And thank you for
like reactivating that text forme because it literally makes me
emotional. And I and I'm gladthat you're like, broadening
that thought, right? have, youknow, because I've had many
angels, like, I just know, thatlike, I wouldn't be anywhere
that I am today without, youknow, these angels who are like,
(14:13):
who know better for me than Iknew at the time and like, just
kind of guided me and, you know,I'm someone who I've been
blessed to have many mentors andlike, you know, it started with
my grandmother, but also myaunt. My Aunt Yvette was
certainly another like Angellike she just was, she taught me
(14:34):
the spirit of joy, right? If mygrandmother taught me like
creativity and rigor and hardwork and what it means to be,
you know, to be a thinkingbeing. My aunt taught me about
joy and liberation. And I thinkthat that I think a lot about
(14:54):
her you know, both I'm lucky tohave my grandmother and my aunt
still alive, but when I, I don'tknow, when I think about like,
just her, her levels of joy,like it's as a, I find it
sometimes hard to allow myselfto experience that kind of
pleasure and enthusiasm, right,there's something and like to be
(15:20):
like, I can point back to ablack woman in my history who
just was very, very liberatedand like, you know, was always
laughing, playing games and, andso I so on a personal level, I
would say that she's someoneelse who like keeps kickstarting
my, you know, then pointing mein my heart, right. And
(15:44):
reminding me of that, like, thepledge like that pleasure is
important, especially as a blackwoman, you know, like, I'm like,
I can embrace all of that. Soshe's one and then I have this
incredible mentor Michelle Shea,who's this brilliant actor,
director, educator, and originalAug, both Sony and like, she
(16:07):
originated a few of those roleswithin the Wilson canon. And I
think she too, you know, liketeaching me the power of
femininity, the power of like,you know, just standing in my in
my womanliness, and the sway ofthat, you know, the power of the
(16:27):
yielding, and also the command,you know, the commander then?
Tara Beckett (16:43):
Can we go a little farther with that power? And
like, what does that look like?
And, you know, if you were todescribe it for our listeners,
I've just, What is that powerthat Khloe teal comes into that
room with?
Cloteal Lee Horne (16:57):
Oh, my gosh, um, yeah, I mean, well, when I
Well, as I feel it in my bodyright now, right, I just feel
like there's a warmness of myheart, my like, there's a, it's
a, a tender ferocity, it's justlike, I am not afraid to be, you
know, wildly imaginative,creative, like, you know,
(17:22):
finding solutions, both caringfor right, caring for the
communities that I'm with, butalso caring for myself, and
understanding that those twothings are one in the same. Just
embracing that wildness and,like trusting my intuition that
I'm now learning that like,power, it's not this male like,
(17:45):
you know, it's not necessary.
It's not maleness, always,right. It's not just like, I'm
going to assert and dominate,it's, I'm going to listen, I'm
going to tune I'm going topause, I'm going to pray, I'm
going to wait, I'm going togather, I'm going to eat right,
like, I'm going to nurture,it's, it's all of those things,
and, you know, and more. And so,I think that that's like, when
(18:10):
any room that I am in, whetherI'm like creating it as a
director or as an educator, youknow, holding, you know, spaces
where young minds and bodies canlike feel their power, or
whether or not I'm like, youknow, with, you know, with with
my partner or whether or not I'myou know, like with my family,
like just understanding thatbeing in tune is actually is the
(18:34):
greatest power, right, listeningto myself, and declaring
boundaries where I need to, andalso being like, Okay, I know I
needed that boundary to protectme then. But maybe now I can go
on the adventure that this isoffering to me
Tara Beckett (19:03):
if you were to look at coming out of your
grandmother's home, and intothis place that you are now can
you think of things you shedthat actually made you who you
are today in a really powerful,great way, even if that shedding
was painful.
Cloteal Lee Horne (19:22):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah. I mean, I think I have hadto, you know, like many people
like, like, my family story is,I used to attach a lot of shame
to it, right? Because I wentfrom like, Sam being growing up
in San Diego being one of 10kids, like, you know, parents
(19:42):
who have struggled with drug andalcohol lism. And, you know,
domestic violence and I wassheltered from a lot of that.
But there's been survivor'sguilt, right. There's been like
this huge amount of life I'm inthese rooms people are cheering
me on and expecting great thingsfrom me. But sometimes, you
(20:07):
know, I would feel like, Oh, I'ma, like, do I deserve this?
Right? Like this, like thisfeeling of like, not enough. And
I would say like, especiallywhen I think back to my time at
Boston University, which waslike, my first exodus from like,
my family origin story, youknow, like, in a major way, 3000
(20:28):
miles away, in a totally newplace that's predominantly
white, very moneyed, you know,environment. And, and being
like, Oh, does my story matter?
Right, does, like, can I tellthis? Can I sing the song of my
(20:49):
mother in this space? Can I tellthe secrets that were whispered
in my ears from my sisters andhave and share those in this
space? And have that be okay,and accepted? Right, so like
this. So I've had to shed yearsof like, feeling guilty for
surviving. And it wasn't until Igot to grad school where, you
(21:12):
know, it was a very challengingtime for me. But I had to
realize that I wasn't the onlyone who survived, right, that it
was so self centered of me tothink that just because my
siblings aren't living the lifethat I live, that they didn't
survive in their own way, right?
Like, yes, my siblings areincredibly well adjusted. And,
(21:32):
and, and chasing their dreams,and, you know, entitled to their
struggles, like many others are,but they're living you know,
they're seeking furtherliberation in the same way that
I am. Our circumstances weredifferent. But so bad to like,
shed those thoughts of like, oh,survivor's guilt, you know, I
(21:56):
had to shed imposter syndrome,right? Of like, you don't
deserve to be here. Why you?
Right? When it's like, I'm oneof 10 kids, but only me and my
youngest brother, were raisedentirely by my grandmother, and
there are so many, I thinkthat's why I became a
(22:16):
storyteller, because I'm, Iwanted to know, why. Why me, you
know, like, how did I get tothis? How was I so fortunate
and, and, you know, feeling likeI was set apart, but knowing
that that there's no hierarchyactually, like, that's what I've
(22:36):
had to come to learn thatthere's no hierarchy in the
lived experience. It's justeverybody is living their
experience. And our humanitymakes us equal. So yeah, so and
also, knowing I've had to, Iused to think that, you know,
(22:57):
that I was born from pain, or,like, you know, my parents
story, but actually, I was bornfrom love, like my parents,
like, they loved each other.
Like, I'll, I often share theirwedding photo, because when I
look at that, I'm like, Oh, mygosh, like, they were an
incredible partner ship, youknow, they have an incredible
(23:19):
union. And and in many ways, I'mlike, oh, I want that aliveness
within a partnership that theyshared enough to birth 10 Kids,
right, right, and enough to staytogether for like, 20 someone
years and, and I want thosethings, I will make different
choices, and already have madedifferent choices. But that I
(23:42):
was born from love. And that,like owning that and accepting
that, like allows me to movethrough the world. integrating
all of myself, and all of myfamily histories that make me
me.
(24:04):
Yeah. But finally, when I got toBrown for my MFA, I just, I was
like, this education system isvery broken. There's a lot of
like, like, especially I waslike, God, I don't know how to
(24:26):
teach my black body, you don'teven know how to welcome my
experience into the room for meto show up authentically, to
like be the artists to teach mefrom the place that I am. And I
have since learned that that'spart of my responsibility, right
to have the courage to alwaysbring that into the room and
(24:48):
acknowledge that when I'm in theroom, but also I've acknowledged
that there are certain thingswithin the environment that that
that make that possible or candiscourage that. And so I got
very upset So with like, whatenvironment? Do I need as a, as
a as an artist to be my bestself? And what, what rooms? Can
(25:10):
I create, you know, to bothfoster that for myself, but also
bring that into other younglearners? Right? I, I don't
think of I don't call them, youknow, the folks that I'm like,
leading their learningexperience, I don't call them
students, I call them learnersbecause, and I call them and I
(25:31):
don't really call myself ateacher, I call myself a lead
learner, because it's very clearto me that, like, I'm learning,
they're learning, how are welearning together, right. And
that allows me to takeaccountability in a way that's
like, that I didn't watchcertain teachers take
accountability for right. Solike, they, I when failings
(25:52):
happened, I watched them doubledown and assert your power in
ways. And whereas I'm like, Yes,call me in, I will mess up, I'm
going to let you know right now.
Like, I will fail you. But also,like, through that failing, you
will learn things. And alsothrough that failing, I will
learn things and hopefully webuilt enough trust in
(26:13):
relationship in this learner tolearn our relationship that I
can learn and recover with. Sowe can fix it in this moment,
right? So, so it's reallyshifted my philosophy with how I
hold spaces, and how I you know,engage in that. And so I've been
(26:35):
teaching, I was teaching at NYUfor like, the past, like year
and a half. And that, and that'sbeen an important journey to me,
but I also have been like, Oh,these academic environments are
not, I don't, they're not what Iwant them to be. And I don't
know. You know, there's so manyways to adjust to that, right, I
(26:58):
can either continue to change itfrom within, create, or create
other spaces adjacent to it thatlike, you know, liberate me and
others. So it's, so I'm in themiddle of like, figuring out
what's the how do I honor thateducator and me, the person who
loves to build sacred learningenvironments? You know, that's,
(27:22):
that's, that's really importantto me, right? How do we create
the conditions where we can beour best possible self, it took
me a long while to even have ateacher of color, let alone a
black teacher. Kind of, like,you know, who felt? Yeah, who
could like really pour into meand, and so it's not neutral,
(27:45):
you know, my lived experienceand how that shows up in a room.
And I, and it also gives me deepgratitude for all the teachers
who both like, supported me, andalso, you know, we're difficult
to navigate because it's justbreeded, you know, more
awareness. And, and I'm veryaware that there will be there
(28:09):
will come a time as I continuemy like, you know, journey as an
educator, that, that folks willcome along and build better
models, right. Like, that's thehope. And, and I welcome that,
you know, and not to be attachedto that, that power struggle
that sometimes happens inacademia.
Tara Beckett (28:37):
It's such a ridiculous bummer that Toni
Morrison's Bluest Eye closedbecause of COVID. Early. Yeah.
But like, you know, you and Iwere chatting before the
recording, it's this new world,right? Where we have to be
really kind of ready for thingsto disappoint, or to stop before
(28:58):
we're ready. And is thereanything about being an artist
during COVID, that has reallypushed your boundaries? I
Cloteal Lee Horne (29:08):
think that it did push my limits by way of
like, my dream capacity, right?
Because I had realized thatlike, in the middle of that
pandemic, I was like, Oh, well,what do I really want? What do I
really want versus what do I sayI want because it seems like the
thing that I should want,because everybody else wants it,
and people want it for me andall of this stuff. So it really
(29:31):
like it pushed my boundaries,like to push my imagination,
right? And like, and to be like,Oh, maybe. I don't know. Maybe I
don't have to go about myartistry in this way. Maybe New
York isn't the epicenter eventhough I love New York, right?
It just really, it encouraged meto like get more specific about
(29:56):
how I want to to shift my, mythat like superpower that I
think many artists have, whichis to be adaptable, right? To be
flexible, I think those arethings that like we have to have
as humans. And as artists, youknow, we really have to have it.
But it also like, was like,Girl, let me know what I was
(30:18):
going to do and what I was notgoing to do. And I just did not,
there are certain things I willnot put up with anymore. But
yeah, but it also pushed myboundaries by way of like,
really knowing that I'm enough,right? Like this, like, being
like, oh, what happens? Like,I'm still not on social media,
(30:41):
it's something that like, I'vejust kind of like cycled myself
away from because this sort ofcompare contrast, this kind of
like, who booked what, whodidn't book what, who got, you
know, like that sort of it'ssent. Comparing and contrasting
that can happen, you know, forartists and that, like, I
sometimes found myself fallinginto, like, it just taught me
(31:04):
that like, okay, where I'm at iswhere the party is, is like,
Tara Beckett (31:12):
I love that. It's like,
Cloteal Lee Horne (31:15):
you know, it's it's, it's not where the
parties that it's where myparty's at. And that's got to be
enough. And, and that has beenlike, that's a boundary that I
didn't even know that existed. Ithought I was like, Oh, of
course, like, I you know, I'mgood. And then to be like, Oh,
(31:35):
well, who am I without, youknow, incessantly booking Who am
I without? You know, I don'tknow, who am I without those
trappings of like, I'm an artistbooked and blessed, you know?
(32:03):
Okay, I do have one life, how amI living it as fully as I
possibly can, becauseeventually, if, if things, you
know, if they go the way Iintend them to, then I will be
building space for, you know, afamily and, you know, little
ones and all of that, but younever know, it's that, you know,
(32:29):
and living with that level ofuncertainty. And knowing that
it's pervasive in all areas ofmy life. I've chosen to be an
artist is like, Hey, girl.
Tara Beckett (32:40):
And it just keeps coming. That's I've tried to get
better with not thinking there'sa finish line, honestly.
Cloteal Lee Horne (32:47):
Yeah. Yeah.
Tara Beckett (32:49):
Riding the waiting the waves in a boat that keeps
changing sizes.
Cloteal Lee Horne (32:55):
Oh my gosh, absolutely. Because it does.
It's like it's like you're likeup and this is okay. Champions
adjust. You just gotta keepadjusting just
Tara Beckett (33:08):
so close, he'll, whether it's your artistry or
otherwise, like, what's next foryou?
Cloteal Lee Horne (33:15):
Oh, I think I am interested in in like
embracing. There's, there's a,there's a pause coming up right
now. There's like something inmy like, life that I just know,
I need to. I don't, it's hard toarticulate because it's not an
(33:39):
artistic thing. It's definitelya personal thing. Like, I think
that the past few processes thatI've been a part of, as an
artist have illuminated some,like, ways of being that I want
to shift within myself or likethat I want to cultivate
practices around, you know, andI think that I'm just looking
(34:03):
forward to like, having somespace to like, be with myself.
I, I don't know, I I missmyself, which is a strange, I
don't know, feels like a strangething to say but, but like,
there's been a lot of change.
And I don't think I've gotten tolike check in with myself for a
(34:24):
sustained period of time oflike, what's really happening,
what's not happening, right?
Like, what do you want to behappening? So I'm looking
forward to going into the cocoona little bit, whether it be for
like, you know, even if it'sthree weeks, even if it's a
(34:47):
month, even if it's the entire Idon't know, but I am just I feel
within myself that it's like Ikind of even if it means I have
to say no to a project or youknow, just I have to figure that
out because something isgrowing. And I don't know, like,
what it quite is. Yeah, Ihaven't stood still enough to be
(35:11):
able to, like, you know, let herout. Yeah, to let her out and to
clock in and be like, what doyou need to say? How can I
support you? Like, what do youneed from me? And just be like,
I need you to sit your ass downsomewhere, like, Just be still
for a second, you know? Andlike, and I totally respect
that. So yeah, that's what youneed. I'm going to give that to
(35:31):
her. But something is cooking.
And, yeah, it's, I'm excitedabout it. But I, but I don't
know what it is. And I think
Tara Beckett (35:41):
I love them.
Cloteal Lee Horne (35:42):
Okay with that. Yeah,
Tara Beckett (35:44):
it feels I it just feels brave, to be honest. Like,
it just feels brave, because Ithink it is way easier for you
to just keep booking gigs andproductions and teaching, you
know, just keep running. That,you know, it's hard work, but
it's a little bit emotionallyeasier. Am I putting words in
(36:05):
your mouth?
Cloteal Lee Horne (36:05):
No, you're not? Yeah, I think it is.
Because you're, I find that asan artist, I'm of service to the
larger project as opposed whichand ultimately, it serves my
life, right. But I'm, I justsomething is looking to crack
inside me. And I just, I thinkit means a little time and
(36:27):
space. And it didn't necessarilyhave a full time to crack during
the pandemic, because I waslucky enough to be working and
to be doing other things that itbut I just need to sit myself
down somewhere
Tara Beckett (36:54):
go to Oh, this one's a good one. This just made
my day and just filled my cup.
And before we end, I would lovefor you to speak to what let
perfect burn brings up in you.
Cloteal Lee Horne (37:08):
Oh, oh my gosh. It um Well, it, it feels
like liberation. It feels like,you know, like all the old
versions of myself. And I thankthem for helping get me to where
I'm at. But but you know, it's,uh, but they've got it. But I've
(37:35):
been such a perfectionist, youknow, and like, I mean, it can
it serves me but also it doesn'tright, like getting, like, I
think that that's where I'mlike, I just need to go
somewhere and sit down. BecauseI have built this machine, this
thing that like works reallywell, very well oiled, like does
(37:57):
the thing. But it's but there'ssomething not fully baked yet.
And I think that that I'm awareof like, it's so simple, but
like I've done enough self tapesto know that my perfectionism
does not serve me because Igotta get it right. And I got to
get it right. And I got, youknow, and and I think I'm just
(38:20):
really like just burn that justlet it go. Like find the
freedom, like follow impulse andintuition. Yield instead of do
like just all those things. Soto me let perfect burn is you
know, that like this image ofmyself, like just being able to,
(38:43):
like, let that image fade awayto like, allow what actually is
right, the contradictions, themultiplicity of it, the sort of
depth of it, you know, and in mycase, it's like, if I can
continue to just, like, justhonor my like, for me, it comes
(39:08):
by way of like, honoring myreal, like my story, you know,
I've done so much of like,trying to fit into very
whitespaces hiding my cousinsand all of them, or like not
even hiding them but like justnot being able to, like, be my
full self. You know, and I thinkthat you know, as a black woman
(39:35):
perfect has meant has like beena white standard in some ways,
as opposed to like, just who Ireally am, you know who I am
with my grandmother, I am withmy cousin too. I am with my
siblings, and my friends, ratherthan feeling like I have to be
(39:55):
this performative version ofmyself to To exists to be
validated, you know so to melike that's the biggest like let
perfect burn let back down
Tara Beckett (40:18):
Well, it's been a pleasure and I can't wait to
watch you sit still and grow inwhatever way that means whether
I can catch you in anotherproduction or you know, hear
about your teaching or hearabout the next book you write
about taking your power as ablack woman. I mean, all those
(40:39):
things seem totally feelappropriate. Yeah. It's been
amazing. Thank you so much fortaking the time to go to
Cloteal Lee Horne (40:49):
thank you so great to reconnect and more
soon. Yeah, of course. Bye.
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