S2E11: Unveiling the Dark Side of Entertainment: Confronting Workplace Abuse and Mental Health Battles with Duncan

Have you ever wondered about the harsh realities lurking behind the glitz and glamour of the entertainment industry? Are you aware of the toll it can take on one's mental health? Today, we walk alongside Duncan, an industry veteran and writer, as he recounts his trudge through the murky waters of workplace abuse and mental duress. 

Duncan bares his soul, revealing the toxic experiences he faced with his first employers, Alan and Glenda, and the deep-seated impact it had on his mental health. He candidly discusses his struggle with self-confidence, his battle with depression, and the consequential journey to recovery. Duncan's narrative is a raw testament to the brutalities of the entertainment industry - the sleep deprivation, the poor work-life balance, and the high-pressure environments. This episode is a real eye-opener, exposing the disturbing truth of the industry's dark side.

But, like a phoenix rising from the ashes, Duncan used his experiences to fuel change. He embarked on a mission to raise awareness about mental health, sharing his journey in written form, and inspir

Welcome to Season 2, where we embark on authentic and unfiltered conversations about life, relationships, society, and more. Our opinions are solely our own and don't represent professional advice. It's just our perspective, so form your conclusions. Heads up, this podcast may contain adult content and explicit language. Let's dive in!
 
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Episode Transcript

Nicola (00:00):
Oh my goodness.
Hello Duncan, so lovely to meetyou.
Do you want to tell our amazinglisteners a little bit about
you and a little bit about whyyou're here today and where
you're calling us from?

Duncan (00:14):
Okay, well, I go in reverse order there.
I'm calling from Los Angeles,from kind of the northeast or
northwest part.
It's called Van Nuys in the SanFernando Valley and there's a
lot of production around hereand I've been working in the
entertainment industry for along time.

(00:34):
But let's see, you wanted toknow a little about me.
I'm a writer by calling, not byprofession necessarily at the
moment, but I am writing andwriting, and writing, and
publishing, and publishing, andpublishing.
So something will stick.
A lot of what I write about ismental health, auto fiction.

(00:58):
I had an experience after a lotof traumatic employment
experiences, I finally just hada nervous collapse of sorts and
it turned out to be a manicepisode, but I didn't know it at
the time.
And they did something else, andso I am going to go as far back
as those stories, if it's allright to tell you about the

(01:20):
horrible stress that I got frombeing mistreated as an employee,
and I hope that you know, whenwe get to the solutions phase
I'll have some ideas, because Idon't know that I handled any of
this the way you're supposed to, but I did what I could, so

(01:41):
shall I start at the, you know,the beginning of my working
career.

Nicola (01:45):
I'm not sure everything but OK.

Duncan (01:47):
So my first jobs in the summer between junior and senior
year of high school, 11th and12th grade, was at a record
store in Boston and a recordstore for those of you who are
young enough not to know what itis.
True where, where you would goand all the cool people would go

(02:08):
to buy their music and youwould connect and it was like a
hangout.
And so I wanted to be a part ofthat.
I wanted to work at a recordstore.
And this new record store wasopening up and I just I ran into
the owners and I said, will youplease hire me?
And they were like I don't know, you got no experience.
And they, finally they hired me.
But they were.
They were really abusive.

(02:29):
And I'll give them names justto make it easier.
There's Alan and Glenda.
That's not the real names.

Gina (02:37):
Alan and.

Duncan (02:37):
Glenda were like the most sadistic employers I think
I've ever had and like I've hadsome bad employers.
But they topped the cake.
They were so mean to me andlike on my very first day they
gave me a job, they handed me astraight razor, you know like
you would put in an exacto thing, but they didn't have one.

(02:59):
So they just gave me the razorand they said, ok, this window
is two way glass and we need youto scratch the backing off of
it.
And so like an hour later I hadlike maybe this much scratched
off because it was you know, islike solidly on there and they
came in screaming at me likeyou're useless and I'm like you
know, and then that was that'sat the tone.

(03:20):
From then on, they keptthreatening to fire me, saying I
was no good.
I was good at my job I mean, Iwas a great cashier and I always
help people find the rightmusic but they just they had it
in for me.
I thought I was one of only twoemployees, and they treated the
other employee poorly too, butwe didn't work at the same time,
so I didn't know, that in andwhen I moved to New York City to

(03:44):
go to college, I needed it.
I was there in the summer, Ineeded a job.
I thought I had one.
It fell through.
So I actually went back toAllen and Glenda and said I need
a job, I'm in New York and Ineed to pay my rent.
And they were like, OK, well,we'll hire you five dollars an
hour under the table.
And I was like, oh great, youknow, five dollars an hour.
It sounded like it was threefifty an hour in Boston, right?

(04:07):
So at that time minimum wage waslike four bucks or something.
So it wasn't right, as abusiveas it sounds, but they just laid
into me like, every chance theygot they had they.
They had a bootleggingoperation, which again I don't
know if anyone knows what thatis anymore, but they made?

Gina (04:28):
Probably not.

Duncan (04:29):
They were.
They had recordings of concertsand they turned them into vinyl
, which, at the time wasstandard and yeah, yeah.
So they had like these pressesand stuff and they were like you
can never, talk about those andyou know, because I asked them
about what's in that place and Iand the guy from Boston that I

(04:50):
worked with, he moved down andwe started working together side
by side, and I saw that theywere giving him the same heinous
tasks that I had.
Like I need you to unroll everyposter and roll it back up and
put it in.
I'm like, do you want me tolabel it or no?
So you know, I was just thislike sweet gentle kid and I

(05:11):
didn't know that being abusedlike that wasn't OK.
So I took it as long as I couldand then I dyed my hair like
pink and black, I think.
And they, I came into work andthey were like you're fired, we
don't like your hair.

Nicola (05:26):
So of course they didn't like you.

Gina (05:28):
Yeah, and then like this is like part of like punk rock
era, what that's like.

Duncan (05:33):
Or that's the thing you were, that that.

Gina (05:35):
Yeah, I would be like sweet rock on, Like I don't
understand that.

Duncan (05:40):
I wish you'd been my boss, gina.
That would have been nice.
They did not get it.
They were so square and so mean.
And the truth is is that yearslater I ran into my friend that
worked there with me on a barplatform in San Francisco and we
hugged each other likeholocaust survivors, like we
were in tears Like you made it.

(06:01):
You made it Like we.
I mean, we hadn't there was nothreat of us dying, but we had
been through this horribletrauma of working for these
people and it was it reallydrove it home for me, because
later I had jobs where I hadnice bosses and I, you know, and
where nothing went wrong and Ithought, oh my God, I can't
believe I subjected myself tothat for so long.

Gina (06:22):
Right.

Duncan (06:24):
I was starting to have mental health issues in New York
because it's very stressfulthere and stress seems to be the
trigger.
So I made a decision to justleave Columbia University and I
dropped out.
I basically dropped out.
I didn't know I was droppingout, I was taking a leave of
absence.
And then I went to SanFrancisco and I got a job at one

(06:48):
of the coolest bars that justclosed so I think I can say its
name the stud bar back when itwas on Folsom Street, which is
like ancient history, and thatwas a great place to work.
Again, I wanted to be in thecool place and it was the
coolest gay bar in San Franciscoand but I was underage and I
was lying about my age andsomebody found out and he

(07:12):
thought he could sexuallysomehow insert himself into my
life sexually by threatening totell on me.
And that wasn't the straw thatbroke the camel's back, because
right after he did that I'llcall him Daisy.
He's not alive anymore, but Ijust don't want to smerch his
name because, yeah, so Daisy,you know I was going to go to

(07:36):
the boss about it, but then thebar closed temporarily to move
and we thought it was just goingto be like a week, but it
turned out to be six months.
We were all.
We were all asked to work atthe new bar getting it ready for
free, For free.
So, yeah, for free.
And I had a very low rentbecause I was living in a

(07:56):
terrible neighborhood in SanFrancisco, but it was like 350 a
month, which sounds likenothing now, but you know to
come up at five again.
It was, I think, $7 an hourunder the table at the stud and
so $350 was 50 hours of work andI had zero hours of work and
that was actually the last strawthat losing my income just and

(08:21):
not knowing what was going tohappen next just sent me into a
manic episode and I gothospitalized.
So I don't blame the stud formy mental well-being so much, as
just those kinds of situationsthat are sort of toxic.
They ran the place where theycalled you family and family
helps each other out, and weknow that, we know that well, we

(08:45):
know that.
And I mean it was nice to be apart of such an interesting
family, but I didn't.
It was a very exploitativefamily too at that time.
I think they really cleaned uptheir act in the 90s, but back
in the 80s it was still a littlesketchy.
So and then I went on to have aseries of OK jobs that some of

(09:06):
them don't even sound likethey'd be good.
I worked in at a phone sexoffice and my boss was wonderful
.
She and I were both in recoveryso there was a lot of support
and all the people that workthere were so cool A lot of punk
rockers and stuff it was.
We didn't.
I didn't talk on the phonesexually.

Gina (09:26):
I dispatched calls to the fantasy makers, but I love how
you call them the fantasy makers.

Duncan (09:32):
That was their name.

Gina (09:33):
I do too.
I think that's amazing.
Indeed yeah.

Duncan (09:39):
And I mean it could have .
It could have been a very toxicworkplace and I heard about
another phone sex office wherepeople were totally traumatized
working there, but this one wasrun by someone who was trying to
get their life together and bea better person, so it was a
healthy workplace of all places,right, yeah, and they were.
They were very supportive of mewith my mental recovery and my

(10:02):
recovery from addiction andthings.
So it was a good place to work.
And then I will warn you beforeI go on that sometimes I get a
little weepy.
It's just like partly just whoI am and partly a symptom of my
condition.
But so if I get weepy, don'tmind me.
I probably won't stay that way.
Oh, don't mind me, I'll justget weepy with you, buddy, me

(10:25):
too, probably.

Nicola (10:28):
Oh my God, we're a bunch of, we're a bunch of soft
marshmallow is really yeah, yeah, I agree.

Duncan (10:35):
I'm definitely a marshmallow.
So I had a series of good jobsafter that.
I I worked at the phone sexplace until I graduated college
and then I worked at the ItalianCultural Institute where I had
the best boss of my life.
He was an Italian diplomat andhe was just so relaxed and I
would get all worried because,you know, I was traumatized by

(10:57):
former bosses.
So I was like you know, I'mmessing up, I'm messing up.
And he was just like, oh, I'mjust like, I'm just like, I'm
just like, I'm just like I'mmessing up.
And he was just like DuncanSanctity, relax, that he relax
right, just sit down, relax,don't worry.
You know, work is not worth it.
You know, and it was such awonderful experience to work for
him and it really colored a lotof the way I approached

(11:21):
workplace trauma in the future,because I had that foundation of
like oh yeah, italians reallyknow how to do it.
You know, the work is not that,you're not defined by your job,
and you know he taught me a lotof things.
So that was a great experience.
When he left and the new bosscame in, I didn't get along with
her very well, but it wasn'ttoxic, it was just she was.

(11:46):
I was so used to there.
There actually was a toxicsituation.
It wasn't mine, my boss, theone who was so nice.
He was at odds with the, with,with his superior, and so the
superior pulled all the moneyand we had no money.
So I mean we had just enough tokeep the office open, have

(12:07):
volunteers and then pay thethree employees Right.
And then that was all he wouldlet us have.
So I had gotten in the habit ofthinking we can't do that, we
can't do that and I was comingup with free things.
I started a radio show becausewe had a huge record collection,
you know, and all that was free.
And then she came along and shejust had the big budget ideas
and I was shutting them down,going you can't do that, you

(12:29):
can't do that.
But it turned out she couldbecause we'd been.
I didn't know that we had beencut off financially and our
budget expanded exponentially.
So it was cool.
But they were never going topay me what I was worth because
I wasn't an Italian citizen.
So I got a lot of advice fromwealthy people that hung out

(12:50):
there that said you know, if youwant to make it in this world,
you can't be working for theItalian government.
You're never going to getanywhere.
And I wanted to go to Hollywoodso I did and my first job in
Hollywood was great.
I had a few episodes where Iwould I was getting I was still
like learning about my mentalhealth and I would get really

(13:12):
angry at work and I didn't knowthat that was like a symptom of
bipolar.
So I just thought I was a badperson when I got really angry
and like yelled at somebody Not,they weren't, I didn't, I was
just yell at peers.
I didn't have anyone workingfor me but then that kind of
hurt my career Like I didn't.
I wasn't able to advance at NewLine Cinema because I had been a

(13:36):
bit of a misbehaving, you know,and I didn't know, like I could
have if I'd known now what I,if I'd known then, what I know
now, I think I would haveapologized, talked about it with
somebody who was sympatheticand asked if there was anything
we could do to like minimize thekind of stress that would lead
me to that.
But I didn't know so and thatwas nobody's fault.

(13:56):
So there's not really.
But I will get to the toxicpart.
Eventually I started to work andI had lost a job and I was
between jobs and I found a wayto work on a TV show and I was
really excited to be a part oflike an actual production and it

(14:17):
was a pilot and as an aspiringwriter, it was really meaningful
to me that I got the positionof writer's assistant and the
writing team was two people.
One of them was a totalsweetheart but she wasn't very
healthy.
She was having health problems,so she wasn't there very often.
And the other one, who I willcall Ron Masterson, was just

(14:43):
evil.
I mean he.
I think what happened was hewas so it was his first pilot
that he'd get to produce as anexecutive producer writer and he
was so excited and so wantingit to succeed that that he got
kind of drunk with power and hejust started laying into me
about everything.

(15:03):
Like you're not laughing at me.
Enough, was one of the thingshe said.
I'm like I'm sorry, what?

Gina (15:09):
Yeah?

Duncan (15:09):
he said yeah well, I mean, it was a comedy and he
wanted to be funny, so it's likeI was.
He was basically instructing meto manufacture laughs and I
said I think it would be betterif you were funny, which was the
wrong thing to say?
That's actually funny.

(15:32):
And so one of the incidents I'lltell you about that I just was.
It was so Hollywood and soridiculous.
He wanted a sandwich from thisreally good deli called factors
and I said, oh, I'll get you thesandwich.
And he gave me the order and hesaid, very specifically, I want
my mustard on the side.

(15:54):
And I said, okay, or yeah,let's just say mustard on the
side.
And I said, okay, I placed theorder.
I was very clear about mustardon the side.
When it picked up the sandwich,brought it to him and he said
they put mustard inside inaddition to the mustard on the
side.
And I said, oh, you want me togo back?

(16:14):
And he said, no, it's too late.
And I said, and you should haveknown.
And I said you mean I shouldhave unwrapped the sandwich and
looked put my fingers inside andlooked inside it to find out
whether or not they'd addedmustard to it.
When there was mustard on theside and and he said absolutely.
And he was just.
That was like a light went off,like oh my God, I'm really like

(16:37):
I really am working for abusivepeople again and you know it
brought back a lot of trauma andthen I think, partly because of
my mental health condition orfor lack of a better term, I
didn't have a lot of selfconfidence to fight back in a
direct way like you heard me bekind of passive, aggressive,

(16:58):
like I think you should be funny.
That's not really what it notnot?
You know, I didn't, I wasn'tclear, I didn't say no, I'm not
going to laugh at you unless youare funny.
You know, something a littlemore direct.
So I had trouble withconfrontation.
I was afraid of it because Ifelt like people would find out
there was something wrong withme or you know, it's just a lot

(17:19):
of it's all old gunk that I'vekind of cleaned out now, but
back then it was stigma and itwas really hanging over me and
affecting my my performance atwork because I doubted myself so
much and my ability to be, tohave boundaries and allow people
, you know, give people thedignity of a proper response,

(17:43):
even if they're horrible.
So the worst thing on that,that pilot didn't get picked up
and on the last day that we wereshooting or the, it was two
days after the last day ofshooting and they said you don't
have to come into work today.
So I said, oh, it was like myfirst day off since they started
and a friend was in town andshe said I'm going to Disneyland

(18:05):
and she was visiting from likePortland, oregon, and I was like
I'm going with you.
You know, I wanted to spend theday with my friend.
So I get to Disneyland and we gointo the enchanted tiki room so
I turn off my phone and welisten to the birds singing the
words.
You know, all the birds singwords and the flowers croon and
the tiki tiki, tiki, tiki, tiki,tiki room and I was having a

(18:26):
great time.
And I get out and I look at myphone and there's 17 messages
right and I was like, oh, andthey were all from Ron Masterson
.
And Ron said, duncan, where thefuck are you?
You need to pick Ellen upbecause we have blah.
I don't know.
It was some reading or somesome meeting that I was.

(18:46):
Oh, I said her name.
Sorry, that's okay.

Nicola (18:48):
I can add it's adaptor and Okay all right.

Duncan (18:51):
So he said you need to pick up my partner, who I was
her official driver, basicallybecause of her health.
And I felt terrible becauseshe's a sweet person and I
wasn't there to pick her up.
But they had told me I had theday off.
So I said you gave me the dayoff.
And he said that doesn't meanyou can't.
You know, it was another one ofthose impossible situations.
Or he's like well, you need tocome in right now.

(19:12):
And I said I just got out ofthe tiki room at Disneyland, I
don't think I.
By the time I got there itwould be way too late.
And he he was just like well,you're fired.
And I said well, my last day ofwork would have been today
anyway, so just don't pay me fora.
And then I thought that would bethe end of my career in TV
because I figured he would telleverybody what I did.

(19:33):
But it turns out he didn't telleverybody, and a couple of
people that I worked with onthat pilot got picked up for a
series and they were like wewant Duncan to work with us.
So I said so, I went.
I felt like, oh, I feltvalidated, so I went to work on
this series, but my positionwasn't the right one.
I wasn't a writer's assistant.
The writers were all reallynice on that show.
I was the producers assistantand the producer Was okay.

(20:01):
He was trying really hard to bea good boss, but he had four
bosses coming at him from fourdifferent directions, so he was
trying to delegate stuff to methat I didn't know how to do.
He had me move a table and Ihad a bad back and I was too
afraid to tell him and I threwmy back out and I had to come to
work in a cane the next day.
And these aren't his fault.
This is me not speaking up formyself, and I would never say

(20:26):
that he was a bad boss.
He was not the problem he.
He could see that I wasstruggling and he was trying to
help me, but he had no time hehad.
You know, one studio wasproducing it, another studio was
going to air it and we were onthe lot of a third studio and
then there was the agency, andeverybody working on it was all
from the same agency and theagency had all this control.
So the abusive incident didn'tcome from my boss, it came from

(20:51):
the agency.
My boss is on a set.
They lock the door.
Your cell phones are all off.
You cannot come or go while theset is hot, right while people
are live on air, as they call it.
It's not on air, but it's not.
It's not live even, but they'rerecording and you can't come or
go.
And this guy from the agencywho I don't remember his name,

(21:12):
so I'm going to call him buthead but had called up and said
I need to speak to your boss,and I said, oh, I'm sorry
they're filming right now andhe's in the lock thing.
I will, I will be waiting bythe door to give him your
message, because I knew thatthese people were like the most
high maintenance and you had tobe really careful with them.
And he was like that's not goodenough and I said I can't do

(21:33):
any better.
And he said and it turned outhe used to work for my boss.
And he said I used to work foryour boss and I know that
Terriers and throw it out likehe was, and then he started
cussing me out.
he's like and I could tell hewas on coke like it was like
Wait, what year was this?
Was this like the 80s?

Gina (21:53):
or 90s.
No, no, no, this was, this was2000.

Duncan (21:57):
No, no, no, this was, this was 2002, I guess.
And he started to say you,motherfucker, and and.
And he just went off with likethe worst foul language and I
just kept saying I, I wouldn'tsay that, or you know, I didn't
know what to say.

(22:17):
I mean, he's just, he said youneed to do something about this,
I need to speak to him rightnow, this is urgent.
And I, I, finally, I just saidyou know, I don't know, I can't
talk right now.
I'm on the phone and I hung up,which is a line from Mary
Hartman that I like to use whenI'm kind of panicking.
I get panicky on the phone, asit is.

Gina (22:35):
I do too.

Duncan (22:37):
And that was like set off a major panic attack.
And as soon as my boss got out,I ran to him and I said, but
had said he has to talk to you.
And he said, oh my God, ok,great, and he goes.
And he's like going, uh huh, uhhuh, uh huh.
And I knew that the guy waslike just, you know, just
smearing my name to my boss, andhe came out and he was like we

(23:02):
need to talk.
And I was like, ok, and I gointo talk to him.
I there was nothing I could do.
I said you were on the lockedset, there was no way I could.
Well, you got to do better thanthat.
And that was, yeah, no, that'sHollywood.
That's like sorry, that's notgood enough.
They also asked me to, theygave me a task that I had no

(23:24):
idea how to do, which was to getclearance for them to use a
baseball cap in an episode.

Nicola (23:29):
So I had to call major league, like in your career view
, like that's not even in yourthe producers assistant yeah, it
wasn't in my wheelhouse, forsure, but it was.

Duncan (23:38):
I called major league baseball and I said hey, I'm on
this show and we want to use oneof your baseball hats in an
episode.
And they said great, well,there's a three week turnaround.
So it was being filmed two dayslater and I said that's not
good enough.
I'm sorry, I need, I need it intwo days.
I said well, tough luck, youknow.
And they hung up on me and Ihad, and I had to go back to my

(23:59):
boss with that and he fired me.
He said I can't?
I just and I can't put up withthis.
And to tell you the truth, itwas like the best feeling in the
world to be fired.
I was like, oh, thank God, Ican get unemployed you were
really.
Yeah, and I got an employmentand and I got to keep my medical
care for like a year becausethey had a really generous

(24:21):
medical thing, so and then Ifound gainful employment.
So I have a long career and Idon't want to.
You know, I don't know wherewe're at time.
Wise, let's see, I've got a fewminutes still right, oh yeah,
you're good, you're good.
So so there's more abuse to talkabout, and this time it it was.
It was really different.

(24:42):
I worked at a large company.
It wasn't a small production,you know.
Even though a TV productions alot of people, it's still
relatively small.
This was like a 10,000 peoplecompany that was in the
entertainment industry, kind ofon the side, and and they ended
up like figuring out that I wasmentally ill and they started

(25:04):
using it like not against me.
There was somebody they didn'twant working there and I had one
of those blow up episodes withher because she was.
She was like making me crazy,for lack of a better term, but
she wasn't a bad person and shewas good at her job.
Usually.
She just wasn't good at her jobin this one case where it was

(25:26):
so frustrating that I broke downand yelled and they heard about
it.
They gave me a week off and then, when I came back, they started
kind of bringing me into HR andsaying, now did this episode
happen?
Because this lady talked to youand I wasn't.
I didn't know what they weredoing and I was like, well, yeah
, I mean she's saying you know,let's lose a million dollars

(25:48):
because you're not allowed tobill it, you know, and I was
saying we're allowed to bill forwork we did, and she was like,
well, it needs to go throughanyway.
So it was just this crazy backand forth with her and, yeah,
she was difficult, but she diddo a pretty good job and I've
always felt bad about this.
I didn't know that's what theywere doing and they fired her,

(26:08):
saying that you provoked amental health incident with our
employee.

Gina (26:12):
Oh, my God.

Duncan (26:14):
Yeah.

Nicola (26:16):
Whoa.

Duncan (26:16):
So that felt bad in a whole different way.
It wasn't.
It was toxic and it was abusive, but not directed at me
directly.

Gina (26:24):
No, they used you as like a pawn.

Duncan (26:27):
Yeah.

Gina (26:28):
Yeah.

Duncan (26:29):
And that felt really cheap and at first I was really
happy she was gone because shewas really bad, and then I
realized that wasn't cool.
Yeah, you know like it was likethere was like a day or two
where I was like yay, and thenI'm like oh wait, they used me
and then you started thinkingabout it.
Yeah, oh, and I left thatcompany and I went to another

(26:51):
one, the competitor, and thenthe competitor bought that
company.
So my mental health record.
My mental health record wasclean at the other company, but
they had it at the old companyand so it got into the HR and as
soon as they figured out whatwas going on and things started
to happen again and I wasn'tletting them get away with it, I

(27:11):
was being careful not to letthem use me as a pawn.
But I did notice that a friendof mine who also had had a, she
had to take a leave of absencefor about three months while
they worked on her mentalcondition.
You know that she needed tohave stabilized and she came
back and she was so I barelyknew her, like I actually didn't

(27:33):
know her.
I sat next to her and then shetold me she'd been away having a
hard time.
I said that's happened to metoo.
And so we bonded and we were,you know, I felt close with her.
I really liked her.
And then she said I'm so afraidthey're gonna fire me because
of this.
And I said they're not allowedto and she said it doesn't
matter, I've seen them do itbefore because it was a

(27:55):
different company.
Now it was the company that Ileft.
I left one company that waspublicly traded for this private
company that took the othercompany private, and when it's
private the rules are a littledifferent.
They're not allowed to do it inCalifornia but they do because
there's not as much oversight.
And, sure enough, two years tothe day that she came back, they

(28:17):
fired her.
They said, oh, we're havinglayoffs.
But she was the only one laidoff.
So I cried and hugged her andthen I had so much pressure on
me I was going to businessschool and I had, you know, I
was like working for the C-suiteand there was all this pressure
on me and I had a little bit ofanother.
I wasn't, I was like hypomanic.

(28:38):
I was feeling really just likeah.
And my doctor said look, I needto give you some time away from
there, giving you three months,and we want you to go to this
program at the hospital whereyou just kind of spend.
It was like day treatment.
You know you just go and workwith a psychiatrist mostly
therapists and then apsychiatrist to kind of calm

(28:58):
down and get better.
So I was like I was so afraid todo it.
I said they're going to fire me.
They're going to fire me, andhe said they're not allowed to.
And a couple of years laterthey let me go.
So I don't know if that wasrelated or not, but it felt like

(29:18):
they were looking for a way toget rid of me, and they did a
very gentle job of it.
They placed me at a moviestudio and said you're our
employee, but you're at themovie studio.
And then at the end of the yearthey said our budget changed
and you're not our employee, butI think the movie studio will
hire you.
But and they did at like noteven it was like less than two

(29:42):
thirds of what I was making atthe other movie, so I had a huge
demotion in terms of pay andthere was nothing I could do
about it because I was over abarrel.
I could have left and gonesomewhere else, but because of
my fear around my stigma andfear and shame around my mental
health, I was afraid to do that.
So I stayed and I worked my wayup and I actually I got hired.

(30:06):
But the person who hired me wasincredibly abusive, and I was.
I didn't know what I was gonnado.
I was in a wheelchair at thetime because I'd broken my ankle
and so I just felt like Icouldn't go anywhere, do
anything, and I was just stuckwith this mean, mean boss and
but one of her she was like wayup, like senior, and then one of

(30:30):
her regular VPs was very fondof me and he was being pulled
onto a project and he pulled meon and then eventually I had to
stop being an employee and be acontractor, and that's when
things got sort of weird again.
As a contractor you don't havethe same status as an employee.

(30:52):
You're kind of a kind of avendor Like you're you have to
like coddle the client.
They're your client now.
You're not an employee, you'rea salesperson with a client.
And it was okay.
They paid me really well andhealth insurance was through the

(31:14):
roof.
I had to pay for it myself butit was still a good deal and I
was making the most money I'dever made in my life.
But it was doing work that Iwasn't really confident that I
was good at.
Like it was at the beginning.
It was stuff I could do.
But then as they moved me up,it was like oh, you know, I
didn't know coding, I was I'mtoo old to know like sequel, you

(31:35):
know, it's just it wasn't in mywheelhouse.
And that's when I think thiswill be the last abusive
incident I'll talk about.
But one of my peers but he wasan employee he called me up this
was during the pandemic and helaid into me and he just said
you are the worst data analystI've ever worked with.

(31:56):
You're an embarrassment.
If anybody ever asked me if Iwanted to be with you on it, if
you were up for a project I'm on, I would tell them absolutely
not in any way.
And the problem was is thathe's my client and I'm not
allowed to speak back to him, soI had to just sit there and
take it and I just kept.
This is at this point I'dlearned some coping strategies.

Nicola (32:19):
And I don't know if this was them.

Duncan (32:20):
It was still passive, aggressive, but I just kept
nodding to myself and goingmm-hmm.
And when he was done.
He was waiting for me to yellat him so that he could get me
fired or something, and I justsaid well, I'm sorry you feel
that way.
That sounds really difficultfor you.
I imagine I didn't see mostpassive aggressive.

Gina (32:40):
I love it.
I'm a passive typical thatyou're so mad at me.

Nicola (32:47):
Yeah, I'm so sorry that I you know I said I've angered
you to a point that you justwanna yell.

Gina (32:52):
Yeah, oh, that must be really tough for you, man.
Yeah, I love this.
Okay, carry on Shortly afterthat.

Duncan (33:01):
Yeah, no, it was, yeah, it was brutal.
And then, shortly after that, Iwas separated from that person
and not allowed to work with himdirectly, but we had to work
together because we were workingon the same thing, and so it
was very awkward and it was likehe managed to get me in trouble

(33:22):
, almost like even though he wasthe one that did the wrong
thing, because I'm thecontractor.
I have to just suck it up.
And yeah, and then I becameaware of this term ableism and
stigma.
There are a couple of wordsassociated with various health

(33:43):
conditions, handicaps, mentalillness.
Ableism is living in a worldwhere people who don't have a
problem think that everythingshould be geared to them and
that they don't have time foranything you know, related to
somebody who's got a littleextra struggle at work, and I

(34:03):
felt like that was that becamemy mission, because I'd already
been writing novels about whathappened to me in my mental
health journey and so I wastrying to promote them and I
didn't.
I was like, well, they'refiction, but they're
autobiographical fiction.
How do I promote this?

(34:24):
How do I?
No agent would touch them andso I just published them myself.
And you know, I did likegrassroots marketing, which has
never been that successful withme, but it did get word out
there and I had a lot ofpositive reaction from people,
especially people who worked inthe mental health field, because
they said that there's no booksout there that tell them what

(34:46):
their patients are thinking.
And this book did that.
You know these books I wrotefive of them.
These books give me a completeinside view of what's going on
in the mind of these people thatI don't understand.
You know, includingpsychiatrists have told me this.
So at the point at which mythere was a point where the
project just got derailedbecause of the person that

(35:08):
yelled at me actually he wasinstrumental in the derailing of
the project and, you know, evenI didn't understand that when
that happened I said, oh well, Idon't think I'm going to, I
don't think I'm good enough atthis, I know they're going to
let me go.
And they did.
And I was relieved and I saidyou know what?
Now I get to work full time onmy writing.

(35:30):
I'd saved up money while I wasmaking money there and so I'm
living on my savings right now,working on getting my writing
out there, and I didn't reallywrite too much about toxic
workplace.
I won't spend a lot of time onit, but just seeing things
through a new lens, the lens ofliving with mental health stigma

(35:53):
and confronting ableism.
I was, I got a mission, like Iunderstood.
Now why my books exist is thatI need to protect people and let
them know I mean not, you know,mother hen protect, but, you
know, stand up for people whoare less protected by society
and less protected at work.

(36:15):
My story is, you know, a rollercoaster of good jobs and bad
jobs, and the bad jobs arereally bad, and a lot of them
were bad because I didn't.
I didn't think I was worthstanding up for myself, you know
, and I don't think peopleshould feel that way ever.
So my books are geared towardsthat, you know, helping people

(36:39):
who are differently able tostand up for themselves.
I'm gay also, I'm a gay man,and so I, you know, I include
the LGBTQ plus community in myweb of protectiveness with the
books that.
I write and I'm publishing too,so I'm publishing some books for
people, and so that was myjourney, and I guess, now that

(37:06):
I've told you an exhaustivehistory of abuse, let's, let's.
Do you have a new question forme?

Nicola (37:13):
Oh, I absolutely do, and I think this was one of the
things that really piqued myinterest around the
entertainment industry as wellwas that there is this
expectation almost unrealisticexpectation that there is this,

(37:35):
I want to say, almost likemodern slavery, associated with
how businesses are being run inthat entertainment industry
space, where you havecontractors that can be let go
at any time.
You know at will employees cool, cool, cool, but they're not
getting the benefits of astandard employee, but then

(37:56):
they're also pushed into workingthese unbelievably long hours.
You know the big days for workare potentially you know the big
days are outside ofexpectations.

Duncan (38:11):
So you know, you know, you've got.

Nicola (38:16):
You know, let's say, for example, a big day you would
have.
You've got two days to do, fivedays worth of work, and you
know that's what theseentertainment thing like this, I
want to say cogs are creating.
And I wonder if this issomething that you've observed

(38:37):
as well, is it just kind ofperpetuates the toxicity, you
know it just perpetuates itfurther down.
And I wonder I'm making a verybroad statement here but I
wonder if a lot of entertainmentindustry people do actually or

(39:00):
have kind of been forced intostruggling with mental health
because they're not gettingsleep, there's zero work-life
balance, they're being pushedconstantly at a really high
stress level space.
You know every shot or everydelivery is a 911.
You know it's.

Duncan (39:23):
And they're not saving lives.

Nicola (39:25):
It's not saving lives, you're making, make work with
pretty pictures for some waysomewhere to watch on Netflix,
you know.
So I'm just curious to knowlike do you feel it's
perpetuated?
Like do you feel that thepeople working there themselves
becoming toxic and that's kindof spreading out as well?

Duncan (39:49):
Yes, I think I mentioned like an example of that would
be that producer that I workedfor, where he had four
unreasonable bosses, includingthe one that yelled at me who
used to work for him.
He said he was being pecked todeath by ducks and he would.
He looked like he was on theverge of tears in certain days.

(40:09):
It was just so hard.
He was a really really mentallystable, grounded person and he
was coming off the rails.
So when he let me go, we wereboth.
It was like he was doing me afavor, like he was stuck there,
he couldn't get out of it but Icould, and so he let me go.
And yeah, I think also it's notalways because somebody was, I

(40:35):
think, maybe, there.
I don't know what the historyof this writer is, who had been
a staff writer, and whether hegot abused a lot as a staff
writer, but the one I call RonMasterson, when he With the
abusive mustard story, he mayhave been bullied a lot when he

(40:56):
was getting into theentertainment industry and then
he's perpetuating that bullyingbecause he's got a taste of
power and you know, powercorrupts people and I think
maybe he just saw it as anopportunity to lash out at
somebody else and initiatesomebody else and haze somebody

(41:16):
else, kind of you know.

Nicola (41:17):
Oh, for sure.

Duncan (41:20):
So there's sympathy built into that.
His co-writer.
She was an angel, she was thesweetest person.
So I don't know why he was likethat, but that's how it went.
Agents probably have horriblebosses, so that agent that was
yelling at me probably hadsomebody horrible yelling at him
.
But I don't, you know, I don'tknow.

(41:41):
You don't always see the chainof evil.
It just it's just going onright.

Gina (41:47):
And it's hard like, especially if you're dealing
with, like a mental illness, tonot take it personally Because,
like I suffer from depressionand before I, you know, got on
something that worked for me,like I was so like sensitive and
I would take everything sopersonally, because I'm already
like self-harming with my owninternal thoughts.

(42:10):
I'm like you're such a piece ofshit, like you know, because
I'm depressed all the time, soit's like I have such terrible
self you know self-talk in myhead that I'm like see, of
course you know, of course it'sagreeing with you.

Duncan (42:21):
They hate me, they say you're a piece of shit.
Then you're like, yeah, I am,you're right.
And it's like, see, I knew it,yeah.

Gina (42:28):
Yeah, and it's like until I both matured in my work, my
career, and also got on some goton medication that really
worked for me, did I start to beable to kind of unpack all of
that and really become like moreemotionally mature, because
when you're in the depths ofdepression or whatever you have,

(42:51):
you're just barely trying to,you're trying to survive, you're
in survival mode, which is nota great place to be in at all.

Duncan (43:04):
I know I was diagnosed with depression initially after
that, shortly after that manicepisode, and then the depression
was very long.
It was the cycle was like onemanic episode and then 20 years
of depression and it wasdefinitely like I would say, I

(43:27):
felt like I had shoes made oflead, like just trying to get up
and get to work and I wasreally lucky that while that was
happening, I was working atthat wonderful phone sex office
with the great boss and she wassuper supportive and helpful.
And you know, she said you needto be on anti-depressants and I
was like I can't take drugs.
I'm in the program.

Gina (43:46):
No, oh, my God, that was the biggest that was the biggest
disservice that the program didto me, because in, like the
early 2000s, whether you're anNA or AA, they weren't.
I find it to be totally againstthe traditions that people

(44:08):
would come and tell you if youtake an anti-depressant, it's
mind-altering.
No, it's not.
If your synapses are notworking properly, there's
something chemically wrong withyou.

Duncan (44:19):
So why not use it's the same as a bandage for a cut,
yeah.

Gina (44:23):
Right or like insulin for a diabetic.
It's like-.

Duncan (44:25):
Right.

Gina (44:26):
And it like it's it people telling me like that I just had
to work a program better orpray more or turn it over.
That was the worst I could haveever been told, because you're
already in such a vulnerable andthis was like early on in my
sobriety, so I didn't.
I didn't know what to share andwhat not to share.

(44:49):
I quickly learned because thatgave me like another six months
of mental torture where I becameso suicidal, like my mom was
scared and she came to live withme in a little studio apartment
on the Upper East Side.
It got really scary and itwasn't that guy's fault who said
that to me, but it was likethat was sort of the overall
thought of AA or NA at that time, like you can't take anything.

(45:12):
And then finally someone waslike actually no, there's a
whole portion in our stuff thatsays we are not doctors.
Yeah, and that's what kind of?
got me over the hump and then Iwas finally like you know what
I'm so fucking miserable Like.
If this medication doesn't work, then I'm going to just off
myself.
And thankfully there was a bigimprovement within like

(45:35):
literally 72 hours.
It was early, that's, and I'mlike you know what that's how
like sapped my brain was ofwhatever you know, whatever it
was that.
I needed, or transmitters thatyou needed yeah, so I totally
get that yeah.

Nicola (45:53):
You know I have to say I've found this, you know,
conversation Great.
I think you know we've reallyhighlighted and we've really
made very vulnerable you knowkind of the real situations that
happen when kind of toxicworkplaces are so bad that they

(46:14):
actually mess up your entirebrain chemistry.
And I, you know, I understand,duncan, that, you know you, you
obviously had some stuffhappening there all like already
, like there was stuff that wasyou know, to be covered, I guess
.
But it's unbelievable how wekind of negate away or just like

(46:35):
flew, flew away oh, I'm feelingreally shit in this job but we
don't really say actually, maybeI need to get that proper
assessment or proper mentalhealth, you know, focus for, for
it.

Duncan (46:51):
It's just very hard because it's an invisible.
When I was in a wheelchair,people were really helpful, you
know, because they could seethat I was struggling, you know
they'd open a door for me orthey'd, you know, tell other
people to stop hanging out inthe handicapped stall, because

(47:11):
Duncan needs it, you knowwhatever right I mean.

Gina (47:14):
Just I need to know who's hanging out of the handicapped
stall.

Duncan (47:18):
Oh, that's where people go to check their messages you
know what I mean.
Like and they just it's likeit's big and it's like their
office, you know, because theyhave a cubicle and they can go
anyway.
So, the word.
Finally the word got out.
Oh, that's actually not cool,because that is reserved for
handicapped people, and ifDuncan's in there, you get the F
out Right.
Yeah, but when it comes tomental health, you can't say

(47:43):
stop being abusive to Duncanbecause it messes with his head
Like they just.
I mean, you could, you could,but it doesn't happen.
Nobody would stand up for me ifI and I was afraid to tell
people what was going on with mebecause I'd seen people get
fired.

Nicola (47:59):
I think I may have been fired you know there's a lot of
You're nervous, You're scared,Like of course.
You would be Like, yeah, itwould be ridiculous to think
otherwise For years on jobapplications.

Duncan (48:12):
They would say do you have a disability?

Nicola (48:15):
And I would just click, no, no disability.

Duncan (48:17):
And I did, and I knew I did and I thought, well, it's
invisible and they don't knowabout it, and I don't know what
would have happened at that timeback in, you know, the nineties
.
I don't know if checking that Idid would have made things
worse, you know, or I feel likeit would have, especially
because like now.

Gina (48:35):
Therapy is much more therapy and you know mental
health is much more in the news.
People you know celebrities aregetting behind it.
People are being disclosinglike things that have happened
to them or whatever diseasethey're suffering from, whether
it's anxiety, depression.
You know bipolar, which is notcalled bipolar anymore.

(48:57):
I don't think I forget what itis.

Duncan (48:59):
Well, I think it's not called manic depression for sure
.

Gina (49:02):
Oh, is it called bipolar, maybe that's.

Duncan (49:04):
Maybe I got a bad disorder and but you don't say
he's bipolar, because then it'ssaying he's a sickness, right,
he's a, he's a health condition.
No, I'm not, he has, he hasliving with or has, I mean you
could say has or I think, themost polite one is he's living
with bipolar disorder.
Yeah so at least I, that's whatI'm hearing in the literature,

(49:26):
and I'm sure it'll change,because everything that could
potentially be pejorativeeventually does become that so.

Gina (49:33):
Yeah, but yeah, I think it's.
You know, people are much morewilling to talk about it now.
So maybe back then no it, youknow.
But like in the 90s that waslike Prozac Nation.
You remember that book thatcame out.
I was a Prozac Nation baby,like I.
When I was 16, I was put onProzac and that was like the

(49:56):
first big thing, right, and thenyou kind of stopped hearing
about it for a minute.
And then now I feel like it'scoming back into the zeitgeist
because people are being moreopen about it.
So maybe now if you haddisclosed it would benefit you.
But I kind of think you'reright.
If it back in, like the late90s, early 2000s, it probably

(50:17):
wasn't the best time to be thatopen about it.

Nicola (50:22):
No, for sure.
I agree, I totally agree andyes, that definitely made me
afraid.

Duncan (50:30):
And it's only now recently I mean in the last five
years that I've realized I needto stand up for myself, I need
to be out.
Like it took me, I came out tomy mother at 16 about being gay
and I thought that was going tobe the hardest thing I ever did.
But it took me 30 plus years tocome out with this mental
illness.

(50:50):
You know to say I am livingwith bipolar disorder and be
proud of it, that I'm a survivor, and not, you know, ashamed or
feeling like something's goingto happen because I spoke up and
I told my truth and now they'regoing to fire me.
Or or people are going to think, oh, don't listen to him, he's
crazy.
Or you know those kinds offears that are left over from a

(51:11):
period where it was true, but Idon't think it's this true now.
I know that the pandemic causeda lot of people to have a lot of
mental conditions to rise tothe forefront because people

(51:32):
were isolated and it candefinitely stimulate depression,
anxiety.
I don't know, you know, I don'tknow the numbers, but I know
that they went up a lot.
They did For sure Once.
Once there's like 15 to 20% ofthe country that has a direct
experience of it, let aloneknowing somebody who's going

(51:52):
through it.
I think the conversationchanges because now it's like oh
, this is, this is happening tome, this is happening to my
friend, instead of just as quiet, invisible people that were
kind of swept under the rug inthe 80s and 90s and early 2000s,
and now people recognize thatwe're living with a lot of

(52:16):
stigma.
It's treated so differently.
If you broke your leg, nobodybe like oh, look at him, he has
a broken leg, we should fire him.
You know it's, but look at him,he's crazy.
Yeah, we need to fire him.
So and yeah, crazy is a badword, but I use it- I use it too
.

Gina (52:35):
I call my medication my crazy pills.

Duncan (52:37):
I'm like oh crazy Cause of my don't not going to be good
.
Yeah, my nerve pills, which islike an old 50s saying I was
gonna say that's like thank youfor your nerves.

Gina (52:50):
The thing is that I would like to know at this point is,
looking back on everything youjust shared with us, what do you
think you could have donedifferently?
What would you tell people whomight be struggling right now in
situations toxic?
Or unhealthy, or however youwant to call it who also have,
you know, mental health issues.
What would you suggest for them?

Duncan (53:14):
There's a few things they can do.
There's a helpline at theNational Alliance for the
mentally ill here in the UnitedStates and I imagine there's
similar lines in much of theworld.
I'm sure New Zealand or is it?
It's New Zealand, right?
Yes, would have it.
And Australia.
You call and and talk to themabout what's going on in your

(53:37):
workplace, because they're goingto know whether or not you can
get a free lawyer.
You know things.
If it gets to that point whereyou feel like you need
protection.
If it's just a situation wheresomebody doesn't know that
they're being like, if somebodykeeps calling you crazy or
something and they don't knowthat you have a mental illness.

(53:58):
If there's someone that youtrust, you can take them aside
and say look, I know you thinkthis is funny, you know you're
so crazy, but it's hurting myfeelings and here's why.
And I don't want you to feelbad, I just want you to stop
hurting my feelings.
Yeah, but you know, be mindfulthat not everybody is a safe

(54:20):
person to do that with.
Certainly, your boss is HR.
I thought HR was like therapy.
I would go in there and tellthem everything and then I
realized that is not the way todo it.

Gina (54:30):
So do not do that.

Duncan (54:32):
Don't talk to them about anything, except for you know,
I'm taking a leave of absence.
Don't say, oh, because ofbipolar disorder, don't?
They have no right to know.
It's a health issue.
I have a note from my doctor,that's it.
Well, we need to know what itis.
And you just say, no, you'renot allowed to know that.
And that's what I did when Ihad to take that leave of

(54:55):
absence.
But they still figured it outbecause of the records from the
old.
Anyway, let me think of someother situations.

Gina (55:06):
Well, some of the ones you have just.
My question, my, my originalquestion, was looking back on
everything that you just shared.
What do you think you couldhave done differently, knowing
what you know now?

Duncan (55:21):
Knowing what I know now?
That's a good question, becauseI don't.
I mean, I saw that I wouldprobably be asked that question
when I was looking at the formatfor the show and I do think
that it's a hard one to answerbecause it's a long career and

(55:45):
the earlier part of the careerit wasn't as safe to do
something about it as it is now.
But because and so that's whyI'm giving kind of modern advice
but like for the situationwhere the guy was sexually
harassing me because I wasunderage, that didn't have to do
with mental health necessarily,but it contributed to a lot of

(56:09):
things.
I don't know how I got out fromunder that, but I did.
I wish I could tell somebody,because that's a terrible
situation where someone's-.

Gina (56:16):
It is terrible when you're getting sexually harassed by
anyone Anyone, yeah.

Duncan (56:22):
Yeah.

Gina (56:23):
Whether they're a boss or in leadership work, they're your
peer, right?
You're a co-worker.
Yeah, it's terrible, yeah, yeah, so do you think so I guess for
me, you mentioned that you'veyelled at people before.
How would you handle I mean, Idon't look, I'm the first one to
get flustered with my clients,with my regular work, my clients

(56:46):
and just I realize I'm going tobe 44 and I just realize I
don't have a poker face right.
So it's like, if you're pissingme off, you're going to see it.
So I'm the first one to appearflustered in a meeting if it's
not going the way I want it togo.

(57:07):
But I don't know if I've everyelled at anyone in a workplace
setting.
So obviously that's not whatyou set out to do I would
certainly not do

Nicola (57:19):
it.

Duncan (57:20):
If I could avoid it, if, even when my temper is at the
top, I know now not to do that.
I learned by doing it maybe twoor three times in my career
that my career was basicallyover at that company because I
did it.

Gina (57:33):
Because you yelled.

Duncan (57:35):
Because I yelled, that is it's just upper management
just says we can't have them infront of the client.
We can't, we can't, we can't,yeah you're like a wild card.
Right.
So keep your temper if you canand if you feel like you're
losing your temper nowadays, Ithink it would be safe to talk

(57:57):
to your boss and say I lost mytemper and it's a symptom of
something you know a symptom ofmy illness and I'm going to work
very hard not to do that again.
I didn't do any of those things.
I just like, pretended like itdidn't happen, because it was so
embarrassing and I didn't knowwhy it happened.

(58:19):
I didn't know that it was asymptom because I wasn't
diagnosed with bipolar disorderuntil recently.
So depression symptoms don'tinclude screaming at people I
don't know.

Gina (58:31):
I feel like they can, they could.

Duncan (58:33):
Because you're so angry.
Yeah, yeah, you're right, itcan come to the surface.

Gina (58:38):
There is like a level of being just angry and it's kind
of like they say, it's likeanger turned inward, but like
for me, when I get to that placewhich I haven't ever since I
got on the right medication likeI become non functioning and I
get become very irritable, likeI just want to be left alone,
like in bed, like under thecovers, don't bother me.

(59:01):
So like when someone startstalking something to me and I'm
like already in a supervulnerable place, I might lash
out and be like shut the fuck up.
You know, like hopefully not acoworker Like, but definitely my
family there was, you know, Iwould be like mom, shut the fuck
up or whatever you know well,that's just.

Duncan (59:21):
I felt like a lot of people in New York do that.

Gina (59:25):
But I would never say that to her, like I was like yeah
yeah.
I would say that to her, unlessshe was like doing something
really crazy or like I neededher to shut her mouth
immediately because likesomebody's in harm or something
like.
But but no, I mean, I thinkthere is an element to the anger
aspect.
So now, of course, if that hadhappened, you would know how to

(59:49):
handle it properly.
Okay, so what are you doing nowthat you're on the other side
of this, and how was yourdiagnosis beneficial for you?
Did it like kind of like?
Did it cut?
Were you kind of like, oh myGod, now everything makes sense.

Duncan (01:00:04):
My whole life, yes, yes, definitely like there was a new
lens to look at my whole workhistory and go, oh, that's what
was happening.
They have really goodmedication for it.
I mean, they started me on, youknow, the old standard lithium,
which is a heavy metal, and itgot toxic.

(01:00:25):
I was in a lot of pain and Iwas telling my psychiatrist I
don't think this is the rightmedicine, and she said you know,
there's some really great onesout there that are just right
for you.
And I was.
I was really nervous about it,but they gave me a new one and
it is perfect.
I mean, my, my mood is up anddown, but it's not like up and

(01:00:46):
down.

Gina (01:00:46):
you know it's not very cute, it's not down, down, down.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Duncan (01:00:50):
It's definitely like at a high normal and that's right
where I want to be.
It's like I have the energy todo the things that excite me,
but I don't get all disorganizedand you know, run from thing to
thing to thing.
So yeah, the question I thinkI'm still answering it is, yes,

(01:01:11):
being given the right diagnosismade all kinds of difference.
It's helped me, even in theprogram that I'm in now, to say,
okay, well it, it isn't anexcuse exactly because you got,
if you just keep excusing pastbehavior and it doesn't change,
but it is a good like solidunderstanding of the challenges

(01:01:36):
that I'm going to face as I'mtrying to recover from not
making enough money which isyeah, so.

Gina (01:01:47):
so I mean I I could kind of see that like in the arc of
your, your story, like once youhad the diagnosis, like I knew
it was probably like a watershedmoment.
You were like oh that's why Iwas like a lunatic on that day
or screaming crazy at someonethat day, Like yeah.
Yeah, Um, you know, becausethat's how I would feel, Like I

(01:02:08):
always knew I was depressed, Ididn't need, I didn't need a
doctor to say, tell me.
It was like yeah, thanks, noshit, Sherlock.
But I didn't need a doctor toprescribe me the right thing,
and this is a whole differenttopic.
But psychiatrists are like.
I went to a psychiatrist whoprescribed me like I don't even

(01:02:29):
think it's on the market anymore, it's a prexa, it's an
anti-psychotic.
I was just severely depressed.
So, wait, I would take it out,because you're supposed to take
it at night.
I would black out and I wouldwake up and I'd have like food
all stuck to me because I guessI would get hungry in the middle
of the night and I would likego eat whatever I had in my

(01:02:51):
cupboards and it was like alwayssome weird mashup.
I was like in my twenties, so Iprobably had like walnuts and
dried cranberries or somethingand like it's like, and I'd be
like I have no recollection ofdoing any of this.
And then she put me on depicoteand like all these heavy duty
things and it's like I, I justneeded a fucking standard SSRI
at a high dose, Like let's notcomplicate things.

(01:03:15):
So it's like once that once thenI switched doctors and the new
doctor was like why are you onall that stuff?
You're just like severelydepressed, you don't need all of
that.
I was like you know, cause,like you trust these people, so
there's also a differentconversation to be had about,
like you know, don't give up ifsomething doesn't work for you.

Duncan (01:03:33):
Yeah, that's an extremely important piece of
advice, and someone told me thatthey said be ready, you know,
when they give you the first one, it might not work.
And the very first one theygave me, which I don't even know
if they saw it midpermine,didn't work.
But then they gave me desertpermine, which is slightly
different.
And boom, the lead shoes felloff and yeah, that was when I
was in that really really longdepression.

(01:03:55):
But then eventually I, you knowI started to cycle a little bit
.
So yeah.

Gina (01:04:02):
So I think I always like to say that and don't be afraid,
Don't be afraid to trysomething.
The worst that could happen isyou stay the exact way that you
are like you know you stay justas depressed as you were, just
as manic or whatever it is thatyou're dealing with.
But there is the upside of hey,I might actually feel better

(01:04:23):
and be able to live a somewhatnormal life managing this.
So tell us, what do you do now?

Duncan (01:04:37):
What do I do now?
Work, work In your career.

Gina (01:04:40):
We're talking about toxic workplaces.
What do you do?

Duncan (01:04:43):
I promote my books.
I don't work in a workplace,I'm my boss.
I write books, I publish themand I try to market them.
And in addition to writing thisvery helpful and healing mental
health fiction, I also writeerotica, which is like more
bread and butter, but it's stillnot enough to live on and I'm

(01:05:06):
still figuring things out.
I also am a personal bookkeeper.
I help people who it's kind oflike a finance coach, but it's
like I help people who maybethey're earning a lot but
they're also spending what theyearn, and I have some tools to
help them recognize it, monitorit and turn it around.

(01:05:29):
And I've done that for dozensof people and would love to keep
doing it.
So I'm actively marketingmyself for that too.
Okay, yeah.

Gina (01:05:40):
So do you write under a pen name?

Duncan (01:05:43):
Well, the erotica is under a pen name, but my writing
is under my name, duncan McLeod.
Oh, it's backwards, probably onthis camera.

Gina (01:05:51):
No, now we got it.

Duncan (01:05:52):
Oh it's not, I can't tell.

Gina (01:05:54):
Not for me.
No, not for me.
Oh, okay, it is for me.

Duncan (01:05:58):
So yeah, duncan McLeod is and my books are on Amazon.
If you search for my books, theeasiest way is to type in 5150
and then you'll get a bunch ofVan Halen albums.
So add Duncan or Cloud after5150 and then you'll get.
You'll find all my mentalhealth work.

Gina (01:06:20):
Oh, cool I'm not going to.

Duncan (01:06:21):
This isn't the right venue for promoting erotica, but
the bookkeeping is the best.

Gina (01:06:25):
You never know.
You never know.
I mean, yeah, I'm not going togive it away.

Duncan (01:06:31):
But the bookkeeping is actually under my.
I have a website for my writingwhich is Duncan writes bookscom
, and then I have anotherwebsite which is Duncan keeps
bookscom.
That's pretty cute.

Gina (01:06:45):
I like that.

Duncan (01:06:45):
So, depending on which of those interests, you you can
go to Duncan writes books, orDuncan keeps books to see what I
do and learn more about how I'mhelping people and who is your
ideal type of client for yourDuncan keeps books.
It would be an influencer andI'll tell you why in a minute.

(01:07:05):
Who's sweet and kind and doesnot run to anger as their first
emotion these are the words ofexperience.
Who is earning a great deal ofmoney but not finding that
they're living from one kind offinancial inflow to another
without having a reserve.
That's, and they recognize it,I guess, and they're ready to do

(01:07:28):
something about it, because themistake that a lot of high
people in entertainment andother places where they suddenly
start making a lot of money,they equate income with wealth
and the two are actually almostnot relate.
I mean, if you have a highincome.
It's faster to get wealth if youcan stem your spending.
But even if you're earning alittle bit, if you put 10% of

(01:07:50):
that aside, every you know, withthe 401k or whatever you
accumulate wealth.
So that's the.
It's such a basic lesson that Ialmost feel like I've given it
all away just here.
But that's, and if you see whatyou're doing, you have to be
able to see what you're spendingmoney on, and there's tools for
that, automated, so that youcan just look and see reports of

(01:08:10):
like oh my God, I spent, youknow, $3,000 on meals last month
, and a normal amount might be600.
So let's see if we can, youknow, go out to eat a little
less and cook a little more.

Gina (01:08:25):
Okay, so is there anything else you want to tell us?
I mean, this is such a great,such a great conversation and I
think we hit on a lot of notnecessarily hot button topics.
But mental health is always alittle.
It's always a little dicey, Ifeel like when you start talking
about it, because some people,you know it can be sort of a

(01:08:48):
polarizing topic, but we try notto do anything like that.
So I think it was a reallygreat, just sort of kind
conversation of telling yourexperience and me kind of
relating to that and then, yeah,seeing what we can do.
You know, now I feel like it'ssort of almost like if I could

(01:09:11):
get through that, I can getthrough anything, you know.
That's sort of the way I feelabout my own mental health
struggles and thankfully, youknow, my medication works for me
.
I have no plans on ever gettingoff of it.

Duncan (01:09:26):
Yeah, I know what you mean.
You may have to change it atsome point.
I'll warn you, that happened tome a couple of times where it
just kind of stopped working,and be on the lookout for that.
If you find yourself going oh,I think I have some depression
symptoms and they're lastingthat's a good time to talk to
your doctor.
Yeah, it could be a bit that.
That's what kind of happenedwhen I had to take time off from

(01:09:47):
work, but it was because ofbipolar, not depression, but I
also have done with that.
Does it mean stopped workingand I had to switch to a couple
of other ones over?

Gina (01:09:55):
Yeah, hopefully I've been on the same one for like I want
to say like 12, 15 years and I'mlike as long as it's still
working and you're feeling goodit's still working and yeah, and
I don't have any intentions oftaking, taking, you know,

(01:10:16):
getting off of it.
Yeah, so that's that's myfeeling on that.
Is there anything else you wantto tell our listeners?

Duncan (01:10:29):
Yeah For the, for the people who are listening, who
are struggling with mentalhealth condition.
There's a lot of resources foryou.
I gave you one, the namey NAMIhotline.
But friends and familysometimes can be very helpful,
but don't go to the ones thataren't helpful.
Don't go to the ones that sayall you need is a swift kick in

(01:10:50):
the pants or whatever.

Gina (01:10:53):
You know you reach out to the right people right and it
can be really hard.

Duncan (01:10:58):
Depression for me.
When I was in the depths of it.
I was down a well and peopleare going you need to do this,
you need to do that from the topof a well, like I'm in a well,
I'm stuck, I can't do anything.
You got to just you got to putone foot in front of the other
and make it to that doctor'soffice and say I need help.
You know, just admit you needhelp, don't be ashamed.

(01:11:18):
I think, that it's going toreflect poorly on you.
So many other people are livingwith this condition, and the
more of us who talk about itopenly, the better it will be
for you.
So you, too, can share about itwhen you're ready and, yes,
it's like coming out, so it maytake a while, but do it when you
can.

Gina (01:11:39):
Yeah, okay, so we we know where to reach you, and well, I
just want to thank you so muchfor taking the time to chat with
us Of course.
I also feel like you should.
You could do voiceovers or likeaudible books, because you have
such a soothing voice.

Duncan (01:11:58):
Thank you, I do podcasts actually of my, of my fiction,
so oh cool.
Yeah, you can find them on anypodcasting platform.
It's the title is wheneverything cracks, which is the
first two books, this book andits sequel combined.

Gina (01:12:16):
When everything cracks is the podcast, so I think I've got
to put that in question.

Duncan (01:12:24):
But yeah, so I do use my voice to be soothing.
So thank you.

Gina (01:12:29):
Yeah, I like it.
Okay, Well, duncan, thank youso much, and we're going to put
all of your contacts in our shownotes.