S2E12: Restructuring Work Communication: Navigating Toxicity and Stress with Lauren

In this enlightening conversation with our special guest, Lauren, we aim to revolutionize workplace communication dynamics. Our focus is on liberating you from the constraints of toxic positivity and stress-inducing work environments that hinder productivity.

Through Lauren's expertise, we uncover a crucial issue: the stark contrast between the grandiose promises made by large organizations and their actual practices. Toxic communication is not merely an impediment to productivity; it lurks as a silent predator, fostering antisocial behavior, eroding trust, and deeply ingraining itself into company culture.

But hope is not lost. We offer carefully curated strategies to help you comprehend your boss's intentions better and navigate toxic environments strategically. Join us to explore the potency of prosody, the importance of communication etiquette, and the effectiveness of remote work protection strategies in tackling toxic communication. By the conversation's end, you'll be armed with practical tools to reshape your workplace communication, fostering a more productive, efficient, an

Welcome to Season 2, where we embark on authentic and unfiltered conversations about life, relationships, society, and more. Our opinions are solely our own and don't represent professional advice. It's just our perspective, so form your conclusions. Heads up, this podcast may contain adult content and explicit language. Let's dive in!
 
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Episode Transcript

Gina (00:00):
All right.
So, lauren, tell us who you are, where you're coming to us from
and a little bit about whatyou're going to talk about today
.

Lauren (00:10):
I am a communication, interpersonal communication in
the workplace wonk, as well as apublic speaking and
presentation skills expert.
I'm coming at you from Edmonton, alberta, canada, currently
blanketed in smoke, but hey,that's okay right now and my the
whole focus on my work ishelping people communicate

(00:33):
better verbally.
That's an area that Ispecialize in quite strongly and
that really is whether they'reup in front of a room giving
presentations or having meetingsand workplace communications.
It's very and very much focusedon the workplace.
So I came to it, partiallybecause I, when I was in, when I

(00:59):
was still in the library world,because I am a recovering
librarian, I always I always.

Gina (01:05):
It's so funny because I just was having a conversation
with my daughter's nanny and Iwas like, honestly, the library
is the answer to so many life'sissues.
Just go to the library.
That's what I was saying.
I was like just go to thelibrary.
There's like always so manythings you could take advantage
of.
So I'm pro library, prolibrarian.
I don't know what to do withthe librarian, but I'm very,

(01:26):
very pro library.

Lauren (01:28):
Working in libraries is very similar to working in large
institutions likepost-secondaries in government
Very regimented, a lot of redtape, and I always worked on the
back end.
I was never a public servicelibrarian but in the various, in
the various roles that I had, Iwas the one that people would

(01:50):
drag into meetings when otherpeople weren't getting along.
And it was yeah, it was verymuch a matter of people need to
talk to one another.
No one wants to talk to oneanother.
Let's bring in Lauren, becauseshe can get people to talk to
one another even when they arequite angry and irritated.
So I saw a lot of the toxiccommunication going on in

(02:18):
practice and also experienced afair amount of it as well,
because I worked in largebureaucratic institutions.
And those are hot beds hot bedsof toxic workplace culture.

Gina (02:32):
It kind of comes with the fairy-tory, Really even the
library that sucks.

Lauren (02:37):
Oh my, how many shanks do you want to dig out of my
back?

Nicola (02:43):
Can they turn a book into a shank, Like what's
happening here?

Gina (02:47):
Laborers- can do anything.
Yes, and I feel like youprobably.
I feel like you are hidingshanks in the book, like
hollowing out the pages.
What do you think?

Lauren (02:57):
the spine is made out of .

Gina (02:59):
A shank.
Now we know better.
Now we know.

Nicola (03:03):
No better, do better.

Gina (03:06):
So maybe the library isn't the answer to most of life's
issues.

Nicola (03:10):
Oh, apparently it is.

Lauren (03:11):
You just kill people off of the library.
It is Just.
Don't get into administrationand management.

Gina (03:18):
Fair enough, so do you want to share a little bit about
that?

Lauren (03:23):
Yes, and, once again, not all of these were specific
to the library world, but thingsthat would often come up,
especially within the sort ofinstitutions that I worked in,
which varied from regionallibraries, which gives services
to other libraries it's like ameta library and post
secondaries in the universitiesis that there was always a great

(03:45):
deal of lip service paid tocollaboration to everyone being
equal to all.
Opinions are valid andeverything you know at what you
have to say matters and wesupport our employees, etc.
Etc.
Lots of lip service but verylittle, very little actual

(04:09):
behavior that indicated thatwhat they were saying was true
and that was.
That was one of the things thatthat really stood.
That really stood out to me isthat lots of these, especially
the bigger institutions,operated in a very low trust

(04:29):
environment, because the culturespeak in the environment said
one thing, but the actualactions and behaviors of people
in it said something verydifferent.
And when that starts up, youstart to get the total erosion
of trust between employees andmanagement.

(04:50):
Yeah, and in order to get areally, yeah, in order.

Gina (04:55):
No, nicola loves the psychological safety aspect and
it doesn't sound like there wasany psychological safety in
these environments, and weactually you and I, nicola we
came from a company that didjust what Lauren was saying.
They said one thing, but theactions didn't back it up.

Nicola (05:14):
The reality of it was that they will.
You know, I know we'll get intoit a bit more, because I know
that our big topic is aroundkind of toxic positivity, right,
and yeah, you know, that's.
That was one of the things thatreally impacted us at our toxic
workplace was the fact thathere's all these fluffy fluffy

(05:34):
nice things.

Gina (05:41):
Don't fucking make a mistake.
Work 24, seven.
Shut the fuck up, followblindly.
Your opinion really doesn'tmatter yeah so know your place.

Lauren (05:55):
Yeah, so your place.
And it's unfortunate becausewhen people are working in an
environment, in an environmentlike that, they can't contribute
.
They can't contribute properly.
Productivity gets stymied atevery single level and it rarely

(06:16):
is just affecting the entrylevel employees or anything else
.
Quite often you'll see the samesort of issues up among senior
level management as well.
So you have stressed out,stressed out managers and
executives who also feel veryunsafe, like they're constantly
under the pressure to be perfector under the or are going to be

(06:38):
canned or somehow let go at anymoment.
And a lot of that gets buriedunder this toxic positivity,
because you can't let the cracksshow, especially, particularly
if it is in an environment wherethat culture of everyone has a
say and we're all equals hereand etc.
Etc.
Especially if that is what isbeing pushed.

(06:59):
Don't let those cracks show,everyone clamps down and then
you get this toxic, poxicallypositive messaging that is being
backed up with very, veryantisocial behavior.

Gina (07:15):
Yeah.
Do you want to give us an, likea very clear cut example?
Do you have one that comes tomind?
I feel like you do, based onyour facial expression.
I thought you never asked.

Lauren (07:28):
Absolutely do.
A great example is from a placewhere I had a totally toxic
vice director who would activelyhit employees against one
another behind their backs.
Oh, I don't know.

Nicola (07:48):
Okay.
I had a manager like that too,and it was the fucking czar.

Lauren (07:55):
And I think, in a way, that is how they create
dependency on the manager, butthat's also how they ensure that
employees don't start to bandtogether.

Gina (08:05):
And like form, like an uprising of some kind of rising.

Lauren (08:15):
We were working in a unionized environment like it
wasn't a union thing.
It's that she didn't wantpeople on the same level
basically trusting each other,because that would be a direct
threat to her.
So some things that would go on.
There are comments like my dooris always open.
My door is always open.
You really should tell me thesethings.

(08:36):
I'm always listening.
What would happen with thewhole?
My door is always open is firstup.
She would pry into people'spersonal lives.
Well, we have to be honest witheach other about what's going
on in our lives.
If I'm going to, you know,really help you grow as a person
and help you watch out foryourself and get ahead.
And she was looking forleverage and I've experienced

(09:01):
this with two bosses on my own,but a number of my clients have
experienced this with withmanagement as well.
So the door was always openstuff.
You had to treat it verycarefully because if you told
her too much about what wasgoing on in your personal life,
she would then use that toquestion whether or not you were

(09:22):
working at your full capacityor if you were even capable to
do so.

Gina (09:27):
So like I'm pretty like that that's insanity.
But like I was, I'm like prettylike I'll tell some of my
closer friends that I work withMaybe some of like some of
what's going on.
Like Nicola always knows what'sgoing on, we like shared the
gossip of each other's lives andall of that.
But I wouldn't go to like myhigher up and be like you know,

(09:50):
my daughter is wedding, the bedor whatever the case is.
She's not, but like and it'slike really stressing me out,
like I would never say that howwould she get you to admit those
things?
And I feel like I've been insituations like that where
you're like, fuck, I just liketold them my whole life story
and I didn't want to, and howdid that even happen?

Nicola (10:09):
You, like share.

Gina (10:10):
Yeah, I'm not an overshare , but I feel like I've been in
situations where people havebeen able to get me to start
like over sharing and I don'tlike.
What is that?

Lauren (10:23):
And a lot of it is that they're very good at wielding
things like silence, which isgreat.
And here's the thing the toolsthat help toxic people
communicate very well are thesame tools that help non toxic
people communicate very well.

(10:44):
It is not about the tool andthe tactic.
It is always about theintention of the person wielding
it.
So one thing to do is to justlet it on the table and then
look at you for a long timewhile saying nothing, and the
difficulty with that is thatmost people are incredibly

(11:05):
uncomfortable with silence.
So we start to talk.
We fill again, we fill again,and then something comes up.
Okay, tell me more about that.
Oh really, well, tell me moreabout what's going on there.
And they get you to keeptalking.
A lot of direct eye contact, alot of head nodding and pathetic
gesturing and whatnot, and thathelps to foster the trust, but

(11:28):
it opens it kind of opens upfloodgates.
And if it's with someone thatyou can trust, that's great, but
if it's with someone who likesto basically gather ammunition
on people, then you have to bevery, very careful, very careful
.
Now, the difficulty here is thatyou don't always know what this
person is doing until you catchhim doing it.

(11:50):
So it's the red flag of my dooris always open, is always
tempered with how does thisperson use what I've told them
afterwards, if I come to themwith a problem?
Has there ever been any kind ofblowback against me, or has
anyone else ever learned aboutthis problem as well?

(12:11):
Is then okay?
The door is open because it'sinformation gathering, versus
the door is open because,sincerely, I'm ready to be there
.
The other reason why I'mcautious with that expression is
because it can be used as a wayto put all of the onus on the
communication onto the employeeonto the person who's lower in

(12:32):
the hierarchy.
My door is always open.
Why didn't you come and tell me?
Because this is a non trustingenvironment and I don't dare.
But now it's my fault.

Nicola (12:42):
You're not going to have .

Lauren (12:43):
So it's a really great way.

Nicola (12:45):
Yeah, but no psychological safety and then no
trust environments.

Lauren (12:51):
Yeah, but my door is always open, nikola, you know
this.
It's always open and you didn'tcome to me and the thing is,
you know there's going to berepercussions, so it can turn
into a really big head game,right then.
And there, so very cautious,very cautious with that.
The other thing that would bedone was that there were always

(13:14):
caveats.
Who, with this, again, withthis person in particular, there
were always caveats with everystatement where they would say
the supportive thing.
But there's a follow up.
So a great follow up and thiswas day one of the job Was.
You know, of course we reallywant to make sure are the guy

(13:37):
who runs this department.
This was a department within apost secondary institution.
The guy who runs thisdepartment is a total workaholic
.
Like he will send emails at twoo'clock in the morning.
He works constantly.
That's.
That really is just him.
He's weird that way.
No one expects our employees todo this and you know, like I
always say that, when, when timeis, when it's your time to go

(13:59):
home, we want to make sure yougo home.
We know you have a family, butyou know, so many people here
just love what they do so muchthat they do choose to stay
later.
You know, I tell them not to.
I tell them they're supposed togo home, but they, they, you
know, they just keep staying.

Nicola (14:17):
Yeah.

Gina (14:18):
Oh, they love, they love the library so much.

Lauren (14:24):
Love what they do so much, all right.
So if you don't, you don't lovewhat you do.

Gina (14:33):
I don't like this.
No, it's Richard yeah.

Lauren (14:39):
Yeah, it's um, but it's very, very effective and it
works really well.
Because of that power disparitybetween the manager and between
the employee, it's always riskyfor someone lower on a
hierarchy to speak up or tospeak their mind or to disagree
with their manager or whatever.
And it doesn't matter again,where on the hierarchy you are,

(15:04):
it's always riskier when you'recommunicating up the ladder.
So people, especially peoplewho are not particularly
experienced you know they mightbe, this might be their their
first real job, or however youwant to put it or they're
younger or they're in some wayof a lower status than others in

(15:24):
the group.
They are probably not going tocatch it for a while.
The assumption is often there'ssomething wrong with me, but
then it becomes this powerdifferential.
So it's really easy to prey onpeople who are much lower in the
hierarchy through thesecommunication tactics, because
it's simply riskier for them tospeak up.
Why didn't you come to me?

(15:45):
My door is always open becauseI will be punished.
Yeah, well, then it becomesthat.

Nicola (15:55):
I think that's the big thing, right is?
There's just this unspoken rulethat you know, you kind of just
, especially in a toxic workenvironment.
Right, in a good one, obviouslynot, but in that toxic work
environment there's just thisunspoken rule that there is
going to be a repercussion forsomething and you just know it's
coming.

(16:16):
You just don't know what it is.
And I think that's what reallycauses that terror, right is?

Lauren (16:21):
it's like my Do I dare, Do I say, what do I do?
And when it's couched in thattoxically positive verbiage that
tends to protect the people upthe ladder A lot more?

Gina (16:43):
So what was, like your final straw that made you decide
like I can't do this anymore.
I want to like go out on my ownand do what you're now doing.

Lauren (16:55):
Well, the final straw was not a toxically positive
environment.
It was that I was simplygetting more fulfillment working
with people on thecommunication side of things, in
the public speaking things andthe interpersonal workplace
dialogue stuff, than I was fromthe librarian work.
I liked that better.
I was able to very I was ableto navigate the toxically

(17:21):
positive stuff and the outrighttoxically negative stuff for a
long time, partially because Iknew what was going on and
partially because I could playthe game.
So along that stuff I was like,yeah, I know what you're doing
and I'm not playing into it.
So how would you handle it then?
By being unfailingly polite.

(17:45):
Unfailingly polite, veryneutral, very bland.

Gina (17:51):
But don't you think that dulled your spirit a little bit?
Didn't that kind of come out ina different way, like because
that's what I ended up doing?
It where me and Nicola, like Ijust stopped interjecting, I
stopped with all opinions.
I just kind of sat and listenedand I felt dead inside.

Lauren (18:08):
In those environments absolutely.
And like the spot that I was inwith that, with that boss who
would just once again set peopleagainst each other and
everything else, I only lastedone year.
The average length of time thatpeople on the project that I
was on would last was six months.
That was the average turnaround, yeah, and like it kind of

(18:29):
became the little tiny team thatI was part of.
I kind of became their bufferafter a while because again, I
knew it was going on and I wasthe one who could up front
handle it.
But I went home and criedAbsolutely.

Gina (18:44):
Yeah, that's right, that's terrible.

Lauren (18:47):
It's terrible.
No one would be like that.
So I found I found somewhereelse and where I worked at.
After that I stayed for nineyears because it was.
It was the opposite.

Nicola (18:57):
Like it was the opposite .

Lauren (18:59):
Yeah, totally.
It was genuinely supportiveenvironment, even when that
organization was going throughsome tough times, and it really
really did.
It was totally different, andso I stayed there for a long
time until my until the businessthat I run now kind of overtook
everything.
But in terms of in terms ofdealing with it, you can't deal

(19:24):
with it long term and like, likeyou said, keep your soul intact
, it's going to get away at you,but it does start to really
show up.
People who stay long, long termin these environments tend to be
very competitive.
They tend to be able to thriveoff of a bit of adversity.

(19:44):
They like a challenge, theymight even like a bit of fight
and, again, that's not a badpersonality thing, but as long
as you challenge it in a goodway.
But after a while, people doput up walls, and you know again
, though, the sort of walls thatpeople would have to put up, it
would lead very quickly.
Many of my clients wereexperiencing burnout.

(20:05):
They were told that they neededto work on their communication.
We're sending you to acommunication coach because your
communication is bad and it'slike isn't.
It sounds like the environmentis next.

Gina (20:20):
So what do you do when someone gets sent to you but
then you're like, oh wait, it'snot like you're fine at
communicating, it's do you havethose situations?
But it's like everyone elsearound you needs to come to me.

Lauren (20:32):
It's rarely a situation where everyone else around you
needs to come to me, and if itis a situation like that, then
the problem is usually theperson themselves.
If they're experiencingeveryone, it's time to look in
the mirror.
Not everyone is a cycle, no,and that has certainly happened.

(20:52):
But the big thing there islearning these strategies for
deflecting things like pryingcomments, for understanding when
this person is like it's almostcharting the person's behavior
against their communications.
So when boss X says this thing,what are the outcomes of that?
How do they act towards peopleafter they do that?

(21:14):
Okay, what does this thingreally mean when they're saying
it?
Okay, now you know what theyactually means.
You respond accordingly to whatthey actually mean and you
strategize this sucker, youstrategize the communication.
Again, if they're needing to dothis constantly throughout the

(21:35):
day, then they might need tolook at a different workplace.
And the hard thing is, is thiskind of communication and this
kind of behavior can becomeembedded in the culture?
Yeah, so that's why.
That's why, very often, I saywatch out for, watch out for
those red flags, thosestatements, if they are not

(21:57):
being backed up with concretebehavior.
That says that they say whatthey mean, if they are saying
these statements, but no onetrusts each other.
Then you might want toreevaluate your workplace
options.

Gina (22:14):
Right yeah, so how?
Why would someone be sent toyou?
Like can you give us an examplelike why would someone be sent
to you for communicationcoaching?
Like, is it usually they'rehigher up, that's like you do
good work, but I think you couldbenefit from learning how to
communicate more effectively, orwhat does that usually look
like?

Lauren (22:32):
very very often.
Most people who come to me cometo me voluntarily.
If someone is being sent to meas like oh no, this
communication is a reallydifficult skill to work on and
it involves a lot of soulsearching and self evaluation
and can be very uncomfortable.
But if someone has been, let'ssay, given like here is a pot of

(22:56):
money, please use it for thiskind of coaching.
Or if someone's been puttingtouch with me directly, it is
usually either because they dothey tend to have a lot of
subject matter expertise butthey're not very good at
presenting it to people whodon't speak their language and I
help them translate thatlanguage or because they're

(23:17):
struggling in their role andthey're looking for ways to help
them struggle less.

Gina (23:26):
This is so interesting Because yesterday we did an
interview with a data scientistwho was working in natural
language sciences and that'slike the opposite end of what
you do, like you do the personto person and he's doing person
to computer, and it's likeyou're kind of doing the same

(23:47):
thing but very different at thesame time.
So it's like kind ofinteresting that we had both
sides of the coin so closetogether.
That's, that's fun.

Lauren (23:56):
Yeah, natural language doesn't mean non strategic.
Right, that's a big and that'sa big thing to remember is that
there's often this assumption orbelief that if you're being
good at this, if you'reauthentic, if you're a really
good communicator, then you doit off the top of your head.
Really good communicators planand strategize and think about

(24:23):
who they're working with andabout what's going on in this
conversation and what is thegoal.
And, okay, knowing the peoplein the room, what are we going
to need to do in order to movethe needle in the direction that
it has to go?
Very, very strategic.
You need to speak human naturallanguage portion and it's funny
because my librarian brain wasfiring off like crazy because

(24:45):
natural language search terms.
It's something that, as aprofession, we geek out about
really hard.
But but in terms of that actualcommunication stuff, it's
figuring out how to maneuver inthe situation and when you are
dealing with a toxic environment.
That strategic maneuvering isreally important for your own
security and to be able tooperate within it.

(25:07):
Sometimes you can be workingwith people who are just oh man,
you talk to them and you thinkthey're absolutely retching, but
then you hear that that's,they're just kind of clueless
and that's just how they talkand you know what, now that I
know that it doesn't bug me asmuch, I can get around it.
I know, talk to Jim frames andeverything that happens as if it

(25:30):
was a catastrophe in the worldwas ending.
This is my business partner.

Gina (25:36):
That's what he's like.
It's his name Jim, it's not,it's Joseph.
So, oh, but it's just.
Yeah, it sounds like Jim,because it'll be like oh, there
was a new, a news article aboutretail, something, something.
He's like we're going to gobankrupt.
I'm like what like?
How do you like?
How does that?
How do you go from like a newsarticle about one of our clients

(25:57):
, like maybe not doing well orclosing stores, to we're going
to go bankrupt?
Like there's, like there's no,there's like I need you to help
me to connect those dots.
Like maybe they won't be as bigof a client of ours, but that
doesn't mean we're going to gobankrupt.
Like there's nothing.
You know, there's a lot ofsteps that need to be done.
There's a lot of steps thatneed to happen in between.
But yeah, he like, he's likethe sky is falling all the time,

(26:20):
trick and little.

Lauren (26:24):
Emotional communication response, and we all have
emotional responses.
We should.
Those who don't are probablynot fit for human consumption.
But it's you know, it's amatter you start.
You can probably figure outwhat is Joseph speaking from his
.
Is he's speaking from his panicbrain right now he's speaking
out of fear.

Gina (26:44):
Right, he's speaking out of fear.

Lauren (26:48):
This is how he reacts.
He has big reactions, he getsthem out, everything's going to
go awful, and then you knockthem off the cliff, and that's
how it goes, and if you can findthat kind of balance, then you
can make your way through Veryproductively.
It really it really is.

(27:09):
Though, like I said, it reallydoes become that when there is
no trust, when there is noconsistency in the behavior,
when nothing means what is beingsaid, that's when the issues
really do crop up, and I'm veryI always watch out for when it's
being couched in nice, becausegoing against nice means you are

(27:34):
not nice and now you're the badone.

Gina (27:36):
But usually couched in nice, isn't nice?

Lauren (27:42):
Correct.
That's why it's couched.
If the person's actuallymaintaining that, I would rather
speak with an authentic assholethan an inauthentic swing heart
.

Gina (27:55):
Right here.
So I this is like speaking tomy soul, because when I email
people it is very like there'sthe information, it's very
direct, like sometimes I evenforget to say hi so-and-so, like
I have to.
I had to retrain myself to goback and say like hi, lauren,
like, because if you asked me aquestion I would just answer it

(28:15):
immediately.
That's the information.
I have it.
Here you go.
Now I can check that off myto-do list.
So I had to retrain myself overthe years to go back and be
like hi, lauren, hi Nicola, youknow, like good question here.
So much for reaching out, yeah,or whatever.
But even when I try to fluff myemails like it's I'm really, I

(28:38):
like I'm I don't know I'mcapable of fluffing unless, like
you and I have like a reallygood, like rapport, like you
know, I don't know if I have totype out or if I'm not able to.
So that does me a disservicebecause people, even though
there's obviously everyone'slike, oh, there's no tone in
email or text, people read itregardless.
They read it however they want.

(28:58):
So my emails tend to be offputting because I have a hard
time, I guess, having a pokerface and poker fingers, because
I'll just be like oh, I have ahard time like having like a
buffer.

Lauren (29:20):
And what you mentioned, where people will read it in
whatever tone they want.
It's called prosody.
It's like you know how musichas a melody.
Yes, it has prosody, which isthe up and down in the
intonation and everything elseof what you're saying.
And it is so criticallyimportant for us understanding
what the other person actuallymeans that when we can't hear it

(29:42):
, our brains automaticallyinsert it.
Your brain does, my brain does,everyone's brain does this.
They have to.
So there, if it's just.
Where is it kind of learning thebasic mechanics of
communication etiquette?
When is it appropriate toengage in chit chat?

(30:02):
Does this person like to engagein chit chat?
Does that help them along?
How do I get to the pointquickly without seeming abrupt
or rude?
And sometimes what can helpthere is reading the email back
in several different tones ofvoice.
So think to yourself if I waspissed off, if I was having a
shitty day, how would this emailread?

(30:22):
And then you do it out loud asif you were having a shitty day,
Like, okay, so if the person Iemail isn't a bad mood, that
might be how they take it, Ifit's just normal to neutral.

Gina (30:34):
Yeah, yeah, because I feel like.
Make it out loud.
Cause, like I feel like I haveread people's emails and in the
past I would be like, oh my God,this fucking bitch, and I'd
like send it to like a colleagueor whoever, and they'd be like
this is not a bad email.
And then, like you know, 20minutes later I'll like reread

(30:55):
and I'll be like, oh no, it'sreally not that bad.
Like my initial reaction waslike, oh my God, this person is
such a piece of shit.
Like I hate this person.
And then, like somebody elseneeds to like check me and be
like this is actually likewhat's wrong with the email?
Yeah, like there's nothingwrong with this email.
Like just relax and that wasjust Whatever your headsets
affecting it, right.

(31:15):
Like I was probably stressed, Iwas probably feeling some type
of way I didn't want to dealwith the issue at the time, like
it's more personal than it isabout the email or the
communication you're actuallyyou actually have in front of
you.
Cause once I had like thatbuffer to kind of like relax and
go back to it and really readit and not just like skim it and

(31:37):
then assign what I was feelingemotionally onto that email.
It's usually never as bad as Ioriginally thought.

Lauren (31:44):
I'm like oh yeah, okay yeah, this is not, this is okay,
yeah, but and when you dothings out loud, all of a sudden
it's like you're activatinganother part of your brain.
You're like, oh, maybe they arefreaking at me.

Gina (32:00):
Yeah, exactly.
Maybe, they aren't.

Lauren (32:04):
And then I tend to go with the best, most socially
acceptable interpretation ofwhat's in front of me, because
that basically just assumes goodintent, which is something you
can do when there is a trustingrelationship, when there is
trust and by trust I don't meanfriendly Sure, because you can

(32:26):
trust a manager and not befriends with them.
You can trust a coworker andnot particularly like them.
It's not about how you feelsocially towards the person,
it's in a professional context.
Can we have an upfrontconversation, understand each
other's meanings and not takeslight at what we're saying to

(32:48):
one another?
For no reason Do we feelthreatened by each other.
Don't need to be friends Ifthat's if you don't feel
threatened by each other.

Nicola (32:59):
And I think that's where the boundaries at our toxic
workplace was really blurred,because everybody had to be in
each other's lives and veryfriendly and it was all
interconnected.
And then there were therepercussions, and then there
was the toxic positivity, andthen on top of that there was
this it was just layer by layer,layer by layer.

Lauren (33:22):
Why are we going for drinks?
Why are we going for drinks?
Because I don't wanna go for adrink with you.
We share no interests.
Let's keep it in the workplace,be very nice to each other here
and then leave each other alone.
But those, nikola, the commenton boundaries is straight on,
and that is why the like.
Another red flag for me iseveryone here is equal.

(33:43):
Everyone's opinions are equallyvalid.
No, they're not.
In some organizations very flatorganizations they'll be closer
to that but there is still adecision maker somewhere in
there whose opinion matters morethan others.
Does that mean they are a morevaluable human being?
No, but it means they have adifferent level of authority and

(34:06):
responsibility within thecompany, the more accountability
might trump others Exactly.

Gina (34:13):
But usually those people have the experience and
knowledge to assume thosepositions.
That's what you would imagine.
So not to reuse the word, butimagine me and Nikola's surprise
when key decision makers in ourcompany had zero corporate

(34:34):
experience before in their lifeand they're now COOs and CEOs.
That's bad, yeah, yeah.

Nicola (34:42):
Yeah, and there's like we've spoken about this before,
but there's nothing wrong withnot having experience.

Gina (34:49):
Like you've got to live somewhere, right, yeah, exactly,
but you should have thought ofthe top.
Yeah, but what makes you ableto do, what makes you able to be
a COO when you don't even knowhow to budget properly?
Like these are issues.
These are major issues.
They are issues, yeah, and,like God forbid, I would stand

(35:14):
up for what I knew to be a wisebusiness decision because I
outranked you and experiencedage and just expertise in this
area.
I was told I was toocompetitive and Nikola was
always told like she was like abitch and you were a little bit,
but that's because you weresleeping like two hours a night,
because they like overworkedyou, like an insane person.

(35:35):
Yeah, but it was like, I think,for me.
I can only speak for myself,but, nikola, you might agree, I
was always leaving the workdayfrustrated, like frustrated
beyond belief.
I just didn't leave the workday.
Well, that was yeah, you justnever stopped working.
You were like I'm going todouble down and work like 36

(35:57):
hours straight, with like a fourhour nap in between, my next 36
hour shift.

Lauren (36:02):
Right, we're going to fix this by doing it more and
harder, yeah, harder.

Nicola (36:07):
But, nikola, take time off.
Please take the time off, ok.
And then you're on vacation andyou're literally pulling over
on the side of the road on yourvacation to solve problems.

Lauren (36:20):
Yeah.
So when they said, take timeoff, we need you to take time
off, we want you to take timeoff, did they follow that up
with actions that allowed you toactually do so?
Nope, then they didn't mean it.
No, they didn't.
They had followed up, but youstill insisted on going into
your email at 2 o'clock in themorning.

(36:40):
Then that's a different problem.
Right, right Again, it's alwaysthat monitoring of do they back
up what they say?
And if the answer is yes, thenyou can start to look at
internally at yourself and say,maybe I am the problem.
But if the answer isconsistently no and it isn't no

(37:01):
just with you, it's no withother people as well Now you
know you've got a toxicsituation.

Nicola (37:07):
You know, what was really interesting is when the
CEO took time off.
No one could contact her.
It was contact either me or theCEO.

Lauren (37:24):
Yeah, rules for you, but not for me.

Gina (37:26):
Yeah, yep, yeah, it was just yeah.
I think the company that we'rereferring to is a perfect
example of we're going to tellyou a bunch of things but we're
going to do the exact oppositein our actions, which left me,
as we said in the beginning,left me consistently frustrated,

(37:49):
consistently at odds.
I felt like my whole teamdidn't like me.
I remember that was one of thefirst things I said to Nikola.
I was like, oh my god, I madeso and so cry, totally did
nothing wrong.
She was just like a sensitive,overly sensitive person who had
it out against me before sheeven knew me.

Nicola (38:09):
She had it out against me too.

Gina (38:10):
She got us both yeah she didn't like either of us.
I remember that was one of ourfirst offline conversations off
work time, because I was like,oh my god, I just made so and so
cry.
And now I think my whole teamhates me, which was my gut
reaction.
And guess what?
That was right, because sheended up getting me fired.
So it's like I should havelistened to my gut more and no

(38:35):
matter what I did to try to makeit better with her, she just
did not like me from the get-go.
Instead of looking at me as aresource for someone who could
teach her things, she just didnot like me and she said that
everything I did was too harsh.
I was like a bulldozer, and it'slike, yes, I can be firm in my
convictions when I know better.
It's not because I want to makeyour life difficult, it's

(38:59):
because I've been here before.
I know how your way is going towork and that's not the right
way to do it and I have a better, easier, softer way.
Let's just try it this way.
That was not OK, apparently.

Lauren (39:12):
Yeah, and with many situations like that, especially
when you get into the need thatyou have to start protecting
yourself and this is going tosound like again more clinical
and clinical with thecommunication stuff as I go on
getting things in writing isimperative To follow up on our
conversation earlier today.

(39:32):
This is what I understand,bullet point, bullet point,
bullet point.
Please let me know.
If there's anything here that Ihave missed, send it out.
You're not sending it out foryour edification, you're sending
it out to set up a record toprotect yourself.

Gina (39:45):
It's a covering your app maneuver.
I'm a big fan of that too.

Lauren (39:48):
Yes, in conversations, the simple act of taking notes
while you're talking to someonewill often especially if they
are highly manipulative willoften get them to stop and say,
ok, maybe I can't get away withthis.

Nicola (40:09):
I take notes on, like I am an avid note taker.
You are, me too.
I'm like avid note taker, likeI've got more notes than I think
I know what to do with and thenI've got to consolidate them.
That's a whole separate hotmess.
But, anyway, I had a toxicmanager who was wow, just so

(40:33):
many things I could say, butanyway, regardless of if I was
taking notes or not, he wouldjust say stupid shit all the
fucking time.

Gina (40:47):
I feel like some, especially men, are just living
clueless.

Nicola (40:50):
Yeah, I feel like it's better if you're writing it down
.
He's not.

Lauren (40:53):
He's not tempering down his crazy yeah and I would say
that probably that's an assholeas opposed to a manipulator.

Gina (41:02):
Yeah, I would say that's just a clueless idiot.

Lauren (41:07):
Yeah, leaders know, they know that they're working you,
yeah, and if you demonstratethat you are someone who pays
attention and is not going to beeasily worked, they will
quickly stop.
Hmm, most of the time, buttaking down notes, that's one of
that's one of those thingsfollowed up by if something

(41:29):
sounds really odd.
Sorry, I just wanted to catchthat.
Could you repeat that for me?
Hmm, so what?

Gina (41:36):
and write it down when you're in a remote setting.

Lauren (41:42):
Um, much honestly, I find that remote is much the
same as In-person, depending onhow comfortable people are in
camera.
So remote, I always tell peopleand this is because I take tons
of notes as well I have to ifI'm going to keep track of
everything that I've agreed toin conversations Um, but I will

(42:04):
let people know.
So just you know.
I look away from the camera fora little bit.
I, I'm not ignoring you.
I've got my notes open on thisother monitor over here, so I'm
just taking notes and every nowand then I'll let them know.
Could you just hold off for aminute?
My you know fingers need tocatch up with my brain and I
take the notes.

Gina (42:23):
Super beneficial.
I would have been like if I hadsaid like you know, go give me
a second, I just want to writedown a couple notes that think
that you just said, or whatever,even if they can't see you,
like sometimes people wouldn'talways like use like you
wouldn't know if they wereactually like even there,
because they would like not havetheir camera on and, of course,
not participate in some, somecases.

(42:43):
So I think if it was verballysaid, oh, I'm taking notes, like
in a kind way, it might havekind of curtailed some issues.
Yeah, yeah.
I agree.

Lauren (42:54):
Yeah, it can't, it really really can't.
It's that notion of is thisperson paying attention to
what's going on?
Are they being diligent?
And sometimes it can mean thatthe, the, the toxic individual
that you're working with willbecome wary or Not want to work
with you because they can't Workyou as well, and they know it.

(43:15):
My personal experience has beenthey start to not try to pull
this crap with you and for anumber of my clients when they
started doing this sort of thing.
Sorry, could you repeat thatback to me?
I just want to make sure I haveit down for accuracy.
Okay, here's the follow-up Um,strategizing what they were
going to be saying.
Going into meetings right downand I often recommend, if you

(43:39):
are going into one of thesemeetings and you know that it's
going to be hard, I will say,like, have a list of tangents
that you will not go on, ordirections that if the
conversation goes here, you'regoing to redirect it back.
So have your own flags on yourcheat sheet walking into that
meeting, because when you'reworked up, when your emotions

(44:01):
are worked up, when you'refeeling flustered with a toxic
workplace individual, you're notalways able to notice those
things in the moment.
Um, I'm trying, I'm sorry, Ican't remember, uh, nicola or
Gia, if it was um, one of youwho said that you find yourself
just spilling everything and noteven realizing that was me.
I found myself.

Gina (44:24):
Incom, it like and being like wait, like I'm not, I'm a
pretty private person to mostpeople, like I don't really
spill most of my like familialsecrets or whatever, like
childhood trauma.
But then I'd be like, oh my god, I just like overshared and I
don't even know how thathappened.
Like that that I've.
Yeah, I'm like, why did I saythat?

(44:45):
I'm so weird.

Lauren (44:48):
Yeah, and it's really hard to catch yourself in the
moment.
So for someone like yourself,my recommendation would be on
that, on your notepad, you havewritten on the side things you
will not discuss, just likedon't talk about dog kid,
whatever.
And if you find yourself goingthere, it's a reminder the paper

(45:10):
is doing the it's.
It's like it's like you've gotyour own little Communication
coach beside you and it'snudging you in the ribs and
you're like oh, I started to godown there, yeah.
Yeah, I mean it's and it helpsyou refocus with the other.
Yeah, finding tools that helpyou, that do the thinking for
you.
You've done the thinking aheadof the meeting, because in the

(45:33):
meeting it's going to be reallyhard, that's true.

Gina (45:37):
That is so true, like even if you know what the meeting is
about.
Like even if, like Like wherenickel and I met, they were part
of this EOS system, so therewas like you could see what the
meeting like, what the maintopics were going to be at the
meeting.
Um, you know usually a littlebit beforehand, but sometimes
people wouldn't Necessarilyupdate it until, like, they're

(46:00):
actually at the meeting.
So there would be some likeoutliers that you'd be like, why
are we talking about that?
But, um, if I think, if I hadmade notes, it would have been
much better for me, because Iwould have, like I noticed that
sometimes I talk a lot, eventhough in my personal life I'm
not a big talker Like mypartner's, like you don't talk

(46:21):
that much.
Like when we're home, I just,you know, go about my business.
I'm not a loud or big talker.
But in these meetings I feellike and even in my meetings now
, I feel like I consistentlyrepeat myself, and it's like
like I repeat myself, but withslightly different language, and
I hate that.
So, so, like what?
What could I do to help myselfdoing that?

(46:42):
It's like I said it, like I,and I also like a firm believer
that if you ask or say somethingonce and you do it again After
that, it's almost abusive, right, like you say something twice.
Um, if you continue to harp onit, it's almost abusive because
it's like, all right, I fuckinggot it, lady.
Like shut the hell up, um.
So what would?
What tools would you suggestfor someone who's like me in

(47:05):
that regard?

Lauren (47:06):
So first, question Are you more likely to repeat
yourself when you're trying tomake a point, or is it more
something that you do whenyou're working through an idea
or a problem?

Gina (47:20):
I would say it happens in both scenarios because I'm I
want to fill the silence.
But the thing is is in mypersonal life I'm fine with
silence, like I'm fine withcomfortable silence, but it's
like back to what you said inthe beginning Most people don't
like silence, so they will starttalking and potentially
Oversharing or, in my case,being repetitive.
To feel the blank.

Lauren (47:42):
Yeah and personal and private are different.
People act differently at workthan they do at home because
it's a different location withdifferent relationships and
everything else, and that issomething that you know.
Instead of saying, well, I'm, Idon't do this at home and darn
it, darn it, why am I doing thishere?
Cheese Just say this is what Ido here and it's fine.

(48:05):
I need to watch for it.
Um, I would recommend thatfirst up, when you catch
yourself, pay a minute, likelike, spend a few brain cells.
You kind of almost have tosplit your brain in two to do
this, but you, you devote a fewbrain cells to paying attention
to what you're feeling at themoment.
Am I irritated?

(48:26):
Am I agitated?
Am I really wound up?
How?
What am I thinking about theother person?
What's my heart doing?
And then you'll start to notice, almost like the physical
Sensations that are accompanyingthis repeating, repeating,
repeating.

Gina (48:40):
I'm willing to bet that it's when you're wound up it
like the most recent example Iwas having a virtual meeting
with a client and um it therehad been a project that we just
came off of that was missmismanaged by everyone involved,
like not not Like I had someblame in it, but there was also,

(49:01):
I would say like I had 25%blame and 75% was the client's,
because I'm only as good as theinformation given to me.
So, um, and I was trying toexplain, like why it happened
that way, and I and I could.
I guess my underlying feelingwas they didn't give a shit
about why it happened that way,they were just annoyed that it

(49:22):
happened that way and it's likeLike I didn't think they were
understanding my side.
So I kept like kind of I thinkI was getting wound up because I
was like it's not, likeessentially, I was trying to be
like this is not entirely myfault, like we need to like each
bear the brunt of what happened.
Um, and I just don't think itwent over well, like I would
have been better.

Lauren (49:44):
Yeah, it probably didn't .
So like recognizing when you'relikely to be doing these things
is very handy because then whenyou start to feel yourself
Getting agitated, for somepeople it's it's almost like
their thoughts start spinning.
For me it's very physical, likeI get Dancing almost.
Then it's like you canrecognize before it happens.

(50:06):
All right, when it's startingto happen.
I'm starting to do this.
I need to pay attention to notdoing this right now.
I'm wound up.
I know I'm going to startrepeating myself, so I'm going
to consciously monitor what Isay and then bringing yourself
down.
I like getting into the silence.

(50:26):
I often do it through countedbreathing, so anytime someone is
talking before I speak, it's inFor two, out for three, in for
two, and then I speak and it'snot difficult to hide it.

Gina (50:47):
Yeah.

Lauren (50:50):
Okay, yeah, like you can do this in the course of a con,
but you're forcing yourself tostop and it's not even stops.
You can think it's a pause.
It's not even pausing so youcan think of what to say.
It's to settle and to kind oflet your brain catch up and to
just be in the moment and thenspeak again.

(51:12):
The counting helps people getaway.
It gives it's almost like itgives you something else to
focus on in that second and it'squick, so it helps to bring you
down.
The other thing I wouldrecommend is be very, very clear
on what the goal of the meetingactually is.
So a problem happened, as yousaid.
The client didn't really carewhat the like whose problem it

(51:35):
was, just that it was a problem.
It's pretty normal for clients.

Gina (51:39):
They don't give a crap.
They'll never take ownershipand I'll always be there and
they'll never take ownership.

Lauren (51:45):
So no, is the purpose of this meeting to figure out who
is to blame, or is it to figureout how to solve the problem?

Gina (51:53):
Right and it's for me and it might be either.
Well, I think, I think justnaturally I'm someone who wants
people to acknowledge when theymess up, because I will
acknowledge when I mess up.
But that is not reality.
But I think innately that'swhat I try to do in situations

(52:15):
like this and I don't think itserved me well because, like
they would say something andthen I would like challenge it,
I'd be like okay.
So I'm curious then, if it'susually only x, this x-way, why
was it done y-way last time withus?
Like why was that?
You know, I asked questionsabout it.
But I feel like my questionsare underlying, like I got you,

(52:36):
like there's an element of likesee, you guys fucked up.
I think in the back of my mindand just innately I don't even
know I'm doing it, there's thatpart of me that's like, see,
this isn't all my fault, but Idon't.
I don't think.

Lauren (52:51):
I don't think I even realize I'm doing that, because
that is probably because you'reheated up here in the moment,
right, right and also likethat's a very human who want to
do that.
It's very human.
But I do actually have a coupleof really tangible strategies I
teach these a lot, especiallyin my keynote talks that really
help with this.
One of them is depersonalizingthe language, and this doesn't

(53:16):
mean dehumanizing the language.
You're depersonalizing it.
You're avoiding the use ofpersonal pronouns no you, no me,
no they, no we, no I.
You pull that out and then allthe only way then you can talk
about the problem is by talkingabout the problem.

(53:37):
So I'm curious in thissituation, why was this
application carried out in thismanner instead of?
So I'm curious, why did youchoose to to do it this way when
it was done that way last time?

Gina (53:53):
Yeah, it's a little, it's so, it's so subtle, but it
doesn't make a huge.
It makes a huge differencebecause, like you said, you
start to get dancey, like Istart to forget to breathe, so
then I'm like, I get like, andthen I'm like, and it's visible
and people can tell that I justyeah, they can tell I'm getting

(54:15):
flustered, so it's like it's soyeah.
So instead I could have saidokay, that's that's awesome,
like that's awesome to know thatmoving forward will only, it
will only be done this way.
So so then the question is whywas it done this way this time?
Okay, yeah, yeah.

(54:37):
Why was?
It done this way.
What was different?

Lauren (54:42):
What was different?
It's not.
Why did you?
It's not, why did they?
It's not.
Well, this is how I do things,and it's like you take the
problem, you pull it out ofpeople and you stick it in the
middle of the table where bothof you can poke at it together
instead of pointing fingers ateach other because that's not
helpful.
No, and this is a really greatway, you know, thinking about

(55:06):
the toxic stuff.
This is also a really great wayof deflecting people's ability
to make you responsible for theweird manipulative shit they
might be doing.
Yeah, yeah, because now nothingis you or me or I or whatever,
everything, like there's nopronouns.

(55:27):
So it's.
It can be a.
Really.
It can also be.
People who misuse this will useit to avoid taking
responsibility for everything.
So, like any of these tools canbe abused.
I will be straight up the toolis neutral.
I do not encourage people touse this strategy of
depersonalization to avoidtaking responsibility for shit

(55:48):
they did wrong.
Like that's not cool, grow up.
But it's a really great way ofbringing down that tension.
Even if you're the one who'sgetting caught under the collar
and dancing and feelingdefensive, it's okay to say I am
feeling defensive, like in yourhead.
I am feeling defensive.
I'm only going to use I'm notgoing to use any more personal
pronouns.
I need to like get out of thisheadspace.

(56:13):
In this conversation, anothergreat one is speaking
relentlessly in the future tense.
This is where people are likeoh, my school grammar and
English lessons.
I hate it so much, but it'sreally useful.
And this comes down like Icould be gone for hours about
classical rhetoric and how itall came up from that.

(56:34):
But when we're in conversationvery often especially workplace
conversations, where there's aproblem If people are speaking
in the past tense, it's oftenbecause they're trying to assign
blame or we're trying toforensically figure out what
happened, like in this case.
Okay, why was it done that wayin the past?
That's because you need tofigure out what the thought

(56:54):
process there was.
That's okay, but this is howwe've always done things.
You know we never used to do itlike that.
Why would they make thatdecision?
All of that is very blame gamey.
So past tense talk can becomeblame game very quickly.
Present tense talk is quiteinteresting If people are

(57:16):
harping on about somethingthat's irritating them, or
they're mad at someone, orthere's a problem and there's
lots of.
We do it like this here.
This is what's happening rightnow.
Very often what they're doingis either defending current
actions or they're trying toseparate them the people who are
doing things the right way,people like us do things like

(57:36):
this with those people who do itall wrong, and it's probably
their fault.
So present tense talk is usedto divide people into camps.
If you want to see this inaction, pay attention to
political speeches.
They are almost always inpresent tense talk because
they're dividing people intocamps.

(57:56):
Future tense is the way that wespeak when we're trying to
solve a problem.
What would happen if we didthis.

Gina (58:06):
Okay, yes, what would happen if we did this?

Lauren (58:08):
Okay, what would happen if we did this?
Okay, so you know, you're right, that is how things were done
in past years.
This year it's looking a littlebit different.
What are our options movingforward?
Okay, yeah, so that thing cameup because of XYZ.
This is where we want to takethis issue.
So how are we going to getthere?

(58:29):
What if we tried XYZ?
What if we looked at ABC?
That's future tense talk andit's speaking basically in the
language of possibilities andthe and solutions.
Now you might get people I'mguessing that Joseph is one of
them Was it Joseph, your partner.

Gina (58:47):
Joseph's my business partner.
He doesn't have anything clientfacing, but yeah, I do, I'm
guessing.

Lauren (58:53):
Joseph will do this.
He will speak in future tensethat he'll catastrophize
everything.
Yeah, oh for sure You're gonnago to hell.
Okay, joseph, sure.
So it doesn't all go to hell,how would, if we try this Right?
So some people will use futuretense to catastrophize, but when
you doggedly stay in futuretense and it's still that so

(59:16):
here is a potential solution howcould we carry out that
solution?
What might the results of thatsolution looks like If that
solution doesn't pan it out?
What are our risk mitigations?
All of that is saying here'show we're gonna work with it,
and it pulls people out ofnegative headspace.
It pulls them out of that blamegame focused speech and keeps

(59:36):
them on track for toxic people,for toxic situations.
It ensures that you are notdwelling in toxic conversation,
because now, when you'respeaking productively about
something that needs to be doneat work and that you're going to
do, darn it, as soon as youwalk out of this room, there
isn't that much space for themto be picking at you and pulling

(59:59):
you apart and manipulating youand making you feel like garbage
.
So you don't allow theconversation to go there and
again with the notes, with thecheat sheet, because it's hard
to think about this stuff in themoment.
I will write down key phrasesthat will help me get going.
So this blank happened.

(01:00:19):
How will we move forward overthe next two weeks?
What's our next step?
I'll write down things likewhat's our next step, how will
we do ABC, and I have those onthe page so that when I'm
spinning and I'm like no, weneed to pull this into future
tense, I can look at my promptand basically parrot it out at
people and get it going that way.

(01:00:42):
Yeah, practice this stuff.
Practice it in low stakesconversations friends, family,
colleagues, you actually like.
You have to practice this sortof thing because it needs to
become a bit of muscle memoryand you can turn it into games
like how long can I have aconversation with I don't know,

(01:01:04):
with my mom, and I don't use asingle personal pronoun.

Gina (01:01:13):
I love this idea, though, because it's like you're playing
a secret game.

Lauren (01:01:17):
How long can I have a conversation with Nikola and
only be in the present tense?
At some point Nikola is goingto be like what?

Gina (01:01:25):
are you doing?
Oh, nikola would know exactly,because I guarantee you the
second we get off this call,we're going to talk and we're
going to both be trying to dofuture tense with each other.

Lauren (01:01:38):
So you play with it that way.
You play with it and thatdevelops your ear to hear for
these kinds of conversationtriggers and then your ability
to respond without it being sohard.
This isn't going to fix thingsovernight.
It's like I said, this is askill that you develop, but this
is part of the armor as welland part of the communication
skills that can help peoplenavigate the toxic workplaces or

(01:02:02):
the hard conversations or thetimes when we ourselves are not
at our best, because the kid waswetting the bed all night, or
I'm looking at long-term carefor my parents and that's where
my head is at and I can't be asfunctional as I normally am.
This helps in all thosescenarios.

Gina (01:02:24):
So how did you really hone in on doing this?
Is it because you were sort ofin linguistics or being a
librarian?
I feel like that's part of thescope of library science.
It's kind of like studying justthe written word, context, that
kind of stuff.
So it's like, how did youreally hone in on these and how
did you learn that they werealmost always beneficial?

Lauren (01:02:51):
Part of it is a performance background, when you
are involved in acting, whenyou do acting training, like I
did, acting, radio work, danceall of that requires you to be
sensitive to the emotionalimpact of words and of
intonation and of nonverbalcommunication and all of that.
So that helped to develop thatemotional intelligence side of

(01:03:12):
things which is very useful andis part of strategic
communication.
In my undergrad it was allabout English language and
classics, so basically readAmerican language.

(01:03:34):
Like you said in librarystudies that understanding how
people think around informationand use it and interpret it is
an enormous part of thatdiscipline.
And from there I was veryquickly like I kind of knit
together this whole process andthen in my job I needed to give
training sessions over and overand over to a wide variety of

(01:03:55):
libraries little, tiny, ruraltown libraries, mid-sized,
mid-town libraries, that sort ofthing.
But the unifying factor is thatno one wanted to be in those
training sessions because theyall hated the tools that I was
training them on and I had tofigure out how to get them to
not hate the tools.

Nicola (01:04:14):
Hmm, makes sense.

Lauren (01:04:16):
So you know, you go into one of these scenarios and for
the first 20 minutes the bestthing to do is to let them rant
about how mad they are at theirmanagers and at the tool vendor,
and at the software and at the,and you sit and you listen to
them and you go okay, how are wegoing to move it forward to the

(01:04:41):
point where, oh shoot, I am sosorry, you're allowed to leave
that in there.
This is the messy middle, myfriends.
The jig is up the stand isunstable.

Gina (01:04:55):
We all went on a little roller coaster ride with you
there.

Lauren (01:05:03):
And then I had to figure out how do I get people from a
place of being very angry andoften angry at me, because I am
now the face of the thing theyhate to be willing to listen and
to converse with one another.
And then, as my roles changedand continued, I would start to
now get pulled into meetingswhere the reason I was there was
because people would be willingto talk almost through me to

(01:05:26):
each other, and so I would be aterrible therapist.

Gina (01:05:36):
I would be a terrible therapist.

Lauren (01:05:37):
I would be a terrible therapist too, and it spun in to
the work that I do now.

Gina (01:05:43):
That's so cool.
Why would you be a terribletherapist?
I just want to know why youthink you would be, because I'm
a crier.

Nicola (01:05:52):
I would be a terrible therapist because I'm like I
would be like what are youcomplaining?

Gina (01:05:56):
about.
That's not even that bad Like Iwould be the worst.

Lauren (01:06:02):
I don't know.
I'm a huge marshmallow.
I tend to assume the best ofpeople until proven otherwise.
And, honestly, all of thesethings, I used to be like, oh,
you should be tougher, youshould be tougher.
But because I know I'm this way, I've chosen to see it as a bit
of a superpower.
Because I know I am this way,first up I can say, hey, wait a

(01:06:26):
minute, you're picking up onsomething, what's going on here?
And be able to figure outwhat's going on in the dynamics
fairly quickly.
But also it means that I haveto be strategic in my
conversations, because that'show I predict myself from
getting sucked into the drama.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gina (01:06:46):
So, oh my God, oh wait, Nicola.
Now that we asked, we willanswer.
Why would you be a shittytherapist, or would you be a
great therapist?

Nicola (01:06:57):
Oh, I would be a terrible therapist because I
would tell you what you need todo to sort your life out.
Same, that's bullshit.

Gina (01:07:04):
I'm like sort it out, you and I were on the same
wavelength because I'd be like,I'd be like, oh, you didn't get
your allowance this week, boohoo.

Nicola (01:07:11):
Move forward, go get another job.
Go get another job.

Gina (01:07:14):
Yeah, you couldn't pay your bills.
Get another fucking job.
Yeah, I would be the worstbitch.

Nicola (01:07:18):
Please have you practiced gratitude today,
because clearly you aren't doingthat.
You spoiled brat.

Gina (01:07:24):
I would think you were a prist, me and Nicola would have
like the least attended practice.

Nicola (01:07:30):
But like when it comes to psychologizing your friends,
you know like I'm not terrible.

Gina (01:07:36):
No, you're way better than me Because you've done it to me
.

Nicola (01:07:40):
Hold on, let's unpick this a little bit and then kind
of regroup it.
But if it were a job, oh my God, I would live the worst.

Gina (01:07:52):
Because I just don't have time for stupid.

Nicola (01:07:54):
So if you're coming to me and you're like well, well,
we know, and I'm like dude, I'mfrom a third world country with
like Cromer, please Tell meyou'll send cute story, cute
yeah.

Gina (01:08:12):
You and I have similar childhood trauma.
That probably makes us that way, because like I used to be told
as like it's.
You know an eight year old likepull up your bootstraps and
just get it done.
So it's like that's.
That's like what I grew up on,which is not at all okay to be
telling like an eight and 10year old that, but like that I'd
probably be like spewing thesame advice.

Nicola (01:08:30):
Character building Gina.
It's character Exactly yeah.

Gina (01:08:34):
You're going to have to do whatever you don't want to do.

Lauren (01:08:37):
Is that there's room for that as well, and when people
trust you, you can be that waywith them.
You can be extremelystraightforward, you can be very
blunt, you can be as upfront asyou like and if that's
consistent in your behavior, andyou are also supportive when
they need it and they can trustwhat you say and that you have
their interests, and it's likeyou know when to be that way and

(01:09:01):
you can tell when they mightneed a hug, like sometimes
people just need a hug andthat's it and then they'll be
okay.
Sometimes they need a lot morethan that and you should refer
them to an actual therapist.

Nicola (01:09:16):
Which again I'm like what about therapy?
But I'm also one of those I'musually pretty good where I'm
like do you just want me to comesit with you, I'll bring wine.

Lauren (01:09:25):
Yeah, yes, and that sort of thing means that you know
she's there, nikola's there whenI just need someone to sit with
me and she's also there to callme on my shit, when I need
someone to call me on my shitand a manager can do that and
not be toxic If someone comes in, I don't know if that's the

(01:09:46):
sort of manager I am.
Yeah, someone comes in and says,look, I had to put my ancient,
toothless, semi psychotic dogdown yesterday.
And you're like, I met that dog, I fucking hated it, it was
psychotic, good riddance.
But you go.
You know what?
That's really hard.
I'm sorry.
I get why you can't be in thismeeting and you give them that

(01:10:09):
empathy in that space.
And then another day, whenthey're struggling for something
else, you can come in and sayyou know what, no, no, no, we're
not doing this, not today, nottoday, sweetheart.

Nicola (01:10:19):
How are we?

Lauren (01:10:20):
going to move forward.
They still know that you can bereally empathetic when it
really matters.
Yeah, yeah.

Gina (01:10:27):
All right.
So, our time is kind ofwrapping up, sadly, because this
has been a very interestingconversation.
And honestly like I feel likethe flow of this couldn't have
been better from Melissayesterday, with the data science
about around that.
What is it?
Natural language?

Lauren (01:10:48):
Natural language yeah.

Gina (01:10:50):
Yeah, To actually like dealing with people, Like it
kind of just flows right.

Lauren (01:10:56):
Yeah, and Nichola and I were like so we but then, when I
was in, when I was in libraryschool, and this is like because
, once you, if you talk aboutlibrarians, it's like calling
everyone who works in a hospitala hospital or or a doctor, yeah
, or a doctor it's like, no, no,there's there's different types

(01:11:19):
, there's lots of differenttypes.
So some of the nerdiest branchesof librarianship deal with with
searching information,searching behavior and,
specifically, how you creategood search engines.
Because library catalogs werebasically always on the
forefront of search enginetechnology and that's why the

(01:11:39):
natural language thing was likeoh, it's because we, the way
we're doing it is that we'redoing it and we.
The way that people look forinformation isn't the way that
search engines used to andlibrary catalogs used to parse
information.
The engine work differentlyfrom the way people talk.
So when I was in library school, creation of natural language

(01:12:02):
search engines was a big thingin our technology environment.
How do we get the the bar, thesearch bar, to recognize what
someone's looking for if they'reasking, like, if they're typing
in the search query the waythat they speak, mm, hmm, and
that was a big deal because wewere getting away from like old

(01:12:22):
school coding, coding stuff likeBoolean to the hell knows how
Boolean operators work, ohplease.

Nicola (01:12:28):
I remember when I was still back at school, we only
used Boolean.
Yeah, and it's a pain in theass.

Lauren (01:12:35):
We basically have to predict like it's.
It's really really hard, but totake that to the point where
you can now type in a naturallanguage query and have it go
through, that was an enormouschange in technology.
So that's like that's deep geeklibrary, that's deep library,
geek Love that.
I was never that much of a nerd.

(01:12:56):
I'm no good at programming.

Nicola (01:12:59):
So tell us all of the details around where we can find
you, what like.
Where can people hunt you down?
Where do you hang out?

Lauren (01:13:08):
I hang out on, of course , my website, lauren surgerycom,
and I hang out on LinkedIn andI hang out on YouTube and I got
a lot of YouTube videos on likecommunication, q&a.
There's this scenario that I'mdealing with how do I make small
talk at a Christmas party?
How do I fix my the corporateslide deck that I'm not allowed

(01:13:28):
to change?
How do I make that interestingthings about workplace
communication, presentation,public speaking I've got lots of
videos on that.
I've got interviews on there aswell.
All sorts of stuff on theYouTube channel and, of course,
it's all linked back to mywebsite too.
You just look up Lauren surgingor at L Surgey on YouTube,

(01:13:49):
you'll find me.

Gina (01:13:50):
Okay, that's so cool.
I'm glad I had that big meeting.
I probably could have savedmyself the auditor.

Lauren (01:13:58):
Anyway, you're allowed to bring in teachings.

Nicola (01:14:02):
Yeah, I think this is a fascinating conversation, me too
.

Gina (01:14:07):
Yeah, it's been so interesting and I think it's one
of the joy.

Lauren (01:14:10):
I apologize for the falling phone and the
difficulties connecting on zoom.
You're fine.

Gina (01:14:16):
We like good If anybody knows us.
It's like we actually have alittle bit of communication on
our phones.
We have a small talk on thephone and I'm the best friend I
have.

Nicola (01:14:28):
I put them up there, nicklas, usually up at the crack
of dawn.

Lauren (01:14:33):
I usually am rolling in right on time and being like
wait, who are we talking to now?

Gina (01:14:37):
I actually knew that we were talking to you tonight, so
I was a little bit ahead of thegame.

Lauren (01:14:39):
I was my game this morning because I was up at like
five for the school 5am.
Oh my God, you have mysympathies.
Yeah, I'm not a morning personeither.
I don't often use handhelds andI'm a hands talker and in a
moment of the news I was likewhat the heck?
I think my microphone wentflying out of my hand.

Gina (01:14:58):
That's amazing.
I was like wait, how come youdidn't use your own Before you
tell us the context?
I was like wait, how come youdidn't like center yourself
before do you're breathingbefore you respond?
Because it sounded like youwere like chucking.
You did the Cardi B that shejust like threw the microphone
at someone who annoyed her.
That is something I would do.
I'd be like I'm going to throwthis microphone at you if you

(01:15:21):
don't shut the hell up.

Lauren (01:15:24):
I like to tease hecklers .
Ok yeah, I really like to teasehecklers because I can usually
get the audience on my sidepretty quick, and it doesn't
happen often, not in the sort oftalks that I do, fortunately.

Gina (01:15:34):
Right, all right.
Well, let's not throwmicrophones at anyone.
I don't think that would bewell received.
And are you taking new clients,like in case some of our
listeners want to engage inlearning how to communicate
better?
Is that something you arecurrently doing or what's going
on?

Lauren (01:15:54):
Yeah, I do take on a handful of clients regularly.
If a listener is like geez, mywhole freaking team needs to
hear this.
I do corporate workshoptraining as well, and of course,
I'm on the speaking circuit too, so there's different ways of
getting a hold of me, and I'malways putting out new videos
and new training stuff, soAwesome.

Gina (01:16:15):
Lots of ways, lots of ways .

Lauren (01:16:17):
I got a couple of books out there.
There's lots of ways to get mybrain Okay.

Gina (01:16:21):
That's awesome.
Well, it was such a pleasure tohave you on and it was so
awesome just to learn from youand thank you so much for your
time.

Lauren (01:16:31):
It is a pleasure Both of you take care, get some sleep.

Gina (01:16:35):
Bye.

Nicola (01:16:37):
Bye.