November 14, 2023 • 62 mins
When it comes to creating a safe and inclusive work environment, Kia Roberts, founder of Triangle Investigations, is the expert voice you want to hear from. Drawing from her unique experience as the NFL's first director of investigations and a former prosecutor, Kia walks us through the complex landscape of workplace misconduct investigations. She also shares the significant impact of the Me Too Movement on these practices and how it's reshaping the dynamics in our workplaces.
Our discussion also shines a spotlight on the repercussions of microaggressions in the workplace. Kia Roberts offers her expertise on how to conduct investigations into incidents of microaggression, and how to ensure witnesses feel prepared and comfortable sharing their experiences. We also examine an eye-opening sexual harassment case that Kia worked on, highlighting the potential dangers when leaders, like the CEO in this case, dismiss or minimize allegations. This episode is an enlightening exploration of workplace dynamics you won't want to miss.
https://www.triangleinvestigations.com/about
Welcome to Season 2, where we embark on authentic and unfiltered conversations about life, relationships, society, and more. Our opinions are solely our own and don't represent professional advice. It's just our perspective, so form your conclusions. Heads up, this podcast may contain adult content and explicit language. Let's dive in!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gina (00:00):
Hey, do you want to?
Why don't you introduceyourself to our listeners, tell
us a little bit about who youare, what you do, what you want
to come on and Chit Chat with usabout again?
We're just so thrilled that youdo want to come and chit chat
with us, so yeah, I'm happy tobe here as well, thank you.
Kia (00:18):
So I'm Kia Roberts and I'm the founder and principal of
triangle investigations, andtriangle is a group of lawyers
and expert investigatorsconducting misconduct
Investigations within workplaces, schools and other
organizations.
So when I say misconduct, thinksexual harassment,
discrimination, retaliation Letme also do sexual assault
investigations within collegecampuses and private schools.
(00:40):
Prior to founding my firm, thatwas the first ever director of
investigations for the NFL,where I did the investigations
for NFL players and employeesaccused of violating the NFL's
code of conduct.
So that was everything fromReplace bullying, sexual
harassment all the way to thesuper, super high profile
Incidents involving allegationsof domestic violence, sex abuse,
(01:02):
animal abuse and child abuse.
Prior to the NFL, I spent abouta decade as a prosecutor in the
district attorney's office inBrooklyn, new York, and I
finished my time there.
That's a homicide prosecutor,doing murder cases.
I got my law degree atVanderbilt, I got my
(01:23):
undergraduate degree at Duke andmy husband I have a
nine-year-old little girl and afive-year-old.
So that's that's.
That's my spiel.
Gina (01:30):
Okay, I.
Kia (01:32):
Already have me.
Gina (01:34):
I have questions already.
Michael Vic Was that you.
Kia (01:42):
I don't talk about NFL stuff.
Nicola (01:44):
So yeah, I don't know.
Nfl Football I love.
Is it that way?
Is it like football with theAmerican?
Gina (01:57):
Yeah, and there I'm so annoyed, just personally, not
really, but personally because Iwant.
I just wanted a yes or no.
I didn't need the details.
I also didn't want the detailsby the way, I'm lying to you I
did want the details, please.
Nicola (02:11):
I tell that I tell this woman that a woman has been,
unfortunately and horriblymurdered.
Oh my god, my street, and she'slike give me all the details.
I was like I don't have anydetails right now, except for
what's going on in the community.
Um yeah, we don't really havethat right.
It's not really.
It's not really our thing is tohave murders Did they catch the
(02:34):
person we don't know yet.
They've got some positive leads, but we don't know yet.
It's an island, it's not likethey're going anyway.
Gina (02:41):
And it's like just like yesterday, yeah, oh.
Nicola (02:46):
My goodness yeah first 48 at the end of my street.
Kia (02:52):
Did you say first 48?
Gina (02:57):
I Dead body rolled up in a rug on a hundred forty-fifth
and Frederick Douglass a fewyears ago and didn't realize it
until the whole Like sidewalkwas cordoned off by police.
And then I was like and then Iread about it like on the
internet Because I was likewhat's going on, I was like
googling it, and then I was like, oh, that's the rug.
I walk fast like totallyoblivious.
Nicola (03:22):
Okay, so circling back, so when you did these, like when
, when you started getting intolike workplace Investigations,
like what kind of lead you intothat space, because I feel like
that's an in I realized thatthat's an interesting Jump from
like NFL into like moreCorporate or different
workplaces.
Kia (03:43):
Nfl is Okay, got it, so the idea to found my firm came to
me.
I was actually on maternityleave with our baby, who's now
five.
So this is 2018 and this iswhen the me too movement was
really blowing up, and everyother second you were hearing
horrific allegations aboutHarvey Weinstein or someone else
(04:03):
just horrible doing things topeople, and I really saw a shift
in Multiple ships.
One of the main ships wasshifts, and cultural
expectations about what is andisn't okay at work right, like
certain comments or behaviorwere really starting to be
frowned upon.
And then I started to see thata lot of organizations at least
(04:26):
organizations that were tryingto do the right thing we're
really engaged in beingThoughtful and proactive about
creating safe and inclusiveWorkplaces, and that type of
work can take a lot of differentforms.
That could be that they wererequiring their employees to
attend anti-sexual harassmenttraining.
There's all these differentkind of.
(04:48):
At that period of time, therewas a really big societal shift
around this in a way that showedup tangibly in workplaces, in
my opinion, and then actuallynot too long after after, if you
consider the me too movement tobe over and I'm not sure that
it is, but not too long after meto really blew up.
You know New York Stateactually codified some things
(05:11):
into law around sexualharassment to really speak to
this moment.
So it was just like a reallytime and I just thought, you
know, I have a resume that'sreally well suited for this and
let me jump out there and seewhere it goes.
And it has gone up ceiling welland I'm just, I'm super, super
grateful.
I always say, you know, goodnews my business is going really
(05:33):
well.
Bad news people don't know howto behave themselves, so Right
well, right?
Gina (05:39):
Well, people are weird.
So I love that.
I love that you just kind ofcreated this whole thing for
yourself.
Nicola (05:45):
That's I also love this.
That's so awesome.
So what are some of the thingsthat you're seeing coming
through most favoritism, lee,you know what are some of the
things that are.
You know you're getting calledup the most and you know would
love to know as well, like, whendo people call you?
Like when is it in the, in theprocess, that they're like oh
(06:09):
shit, something's going down.
Kia (06:11):
Right, right, that's an excellent question and it goes a
few different ways.
I Say, if you are beingThoughtful and deliberate, you
call me or our firm, the lawyersthat work with me, kind of the
second that you start to get aninkling that there's about to be
some serious allegations, right?
So you get that first call fromHR or someone's manager and you
(06:35):
know a lot of the reasons thatpeople call us instead of doing
Investigations internally rightwithin their own HR department
is.
There's a lot of differentreasons.
People don't have the bandwidth.
I think that a lot oforganizations are realizing that
the amount of hats that HRprofessionals are being asked to
wear at this point it's justcompletely unreasonable.
And somebody who knows how tohandle Benefits and time off and
(06:57):
onboarding is not necessarilythe person that knows how to do
an investigation into reallysensitive occasions Related to
ethnicity, race, sexuality,gender, etc.
So some people call us when theyfirst realized, no, we really
don't have anybody in HR that wefeel comfortable with doing
this.
Option number two is the personwho the allegation is being made
(07:18):
against is in HR or it's, likeyou know, a senior person within
the organization and they just,you know, feel like for the
appearance and to avoid anyallegations of impropriety, it's
best to just outsource it.
And then option number three iswhen things really blow up in
the press.
We get the frantic call fromeither the company itself, their
(07:39):
crisis communication slashpublic relations people, or you
know their general counsel, and,unfortunately, once things are
in the press and you've gotten askating article or you know A
blurb on TV, it just it becomessuper, super time sensitive and
(08:01):
it's just not a posture that youwant to be in as an
organization, you know, becauseit looks like you're kind of
trying to sit on things untilyou really got forced into
taking action.
So that's kind of the range ofWays by which people approach us
and find this and do you findpeople are coming?
Nicola (08:16):
Is it more around Like a sexual or harassment
Allegations, or is it morearound, you know, as we kind of
become because I know you and Ispoke about this when we first
Held up is I'm curious to knowis it becoming more prevalent
that we're talking more aboutrace as well?
Kia (08:36):
Right.
So I would say the hot topicsright now are just general
discrimination and disparatetreatment, especially related to
allegations of race.
One other big trending Topicthat I've seen, I would say,
over the last year, is peoplehaving complaints about civility
(08:57):
Right, which isn't necessarilydiscrimination, but it's just
like people being reallyobnoxious to each other at work,
right, in a way that,especially if you're life from
historically marginalized group,you're like is this person a
jerk or is it just?
Or is this because I'm black oris it because I'm queer?
Whatever it might be, and thatcan sometimes be very, very
difficult to figure out.
(09:17):
I finished an investigationrecently where, um, you, one of
these team members you know,multiple team members were
saying that this person dealswith us in a way that is, it
feels bullying, it feels likebullying, it feels like being
personally attacked, and thisperson would send people emails
like okay, so imagine I sendGina an email.
(09:37):
You know half the words are inall caps.
I'm putting different fonts,some of them are well, like I
told you to, you know, just, andI think that the most of us
that feels a certain way likereading emails that are written
and scripted that way.
So the point is that person didthat and a few other things.
(10:00):
People were like I don't evenwant to interact with this
person, right, like the rootwhen they speak to me.
The emails are really nasty andI was working my way through it.
And there are people who madethe allegations against this
young woman.
They were a variety of racesand ethnicities and I was just
thinking to myself well, what isthat Right?
It's not necessarily race-baseddiscrimination.
(10:22):
It's just like you're being ajerk.
It's equal opportunity jerkism.
Right, no, absolutely.
So I've been seeing that a lot,where people don't necessarily
want to call it discriminationand they don't want to call it
bullying, but it is like ageneral lack of civility that's
affecting their workplaceexperience.
Nicola (10:43):
Did you get to the bottom of why this person does
this way?
Because that sounds almost likea neurodivergent scope.
Kia (10:51):
That's exactly what it was, that's what she claimed, and
then so that's actuallysomething I was going to get to.
So this is something I'm likefascinated by, Like my team and
I I want us to like, over thelast few years, like
trauma-informed interviewtechniques have become like
super popular, right, and Ithink that there's maybe a lane
(11:12):
that's opening for likeneurodivergent investigations
involving neurodivergent people.
So when I interviewed thisperson who interacted with
people in a way that peoplereally found to be objectionable
, she's like I'm neurodivergent.
She's like sometimes I don'tunderstand that what I'm saying
is going to be received bypeople in a certain way, and I
(11:34):
think that's fascinating becausethen what right and I'm not
trying to say she was usingneurodivergency as an excuse,
but I think it comes back to oneof those discussions is around
intent versus impact, Right?
So perhaps she did not intendto offend people or make them
feel bullied or threatened, butthat was the impact, and I just
(11:56):
wonder how organizations aregoing to really work their way
around that.
I think it's going to be reallydifficult.
Nicola (12:01):
It is going to be difficult.
We spoke to a neurodivergentand autism kind of specialist
who is autistic himself.
It was fascinating.
Kia (12:10):
Did he have any recommendations or tips, you
know, on neurodivergency and theworkplace and how to navigate
it?
Nicola (12:19):
So he provide guidance to businesses on how better to
equip the business with like aDNI strategy to deal with
neurodivergency as well.
Kia (12:28):
It's right, that's so good, that's really interesting.
Gina (12:33):
I guess my question here is did this particular person
disclose that she wasneurodivergent?
Kia (12:44):
She did to me during my interview with her.
Gina (12:47):
I'm sorry to the employer because I think one of the big
takeaways with Shea was that hewas like once you're part of a
group or a team.
Disclose it, because then it'sup to the employer to help you
make accommodation so you canwork in the best fashion, like
the best way possible.
Like how can we get this personwho's really good at XYZ to
(13:11):
continue to perform?
Nicola (13:13):
taking into account so the e-mails might be shit, right
.
Gina (13:16):
So this guy, shea, who we spoke to, he had like an
auditory thing, I think, right,like he could hear the humming
from certain types of lights andit was amplified for him.
Or he gave us an example and sosomebody just gave him like
noise canceling headphones, likethe office manager arranged for
(13:38):
the headphones, or removing thelight and putting a different
light.
So if I'm just wondering if itwould have gotten different for
this person if they had divulgedto them their employer?
I am neurodivergent, you know.
Maybe they didn't know Like Ican identify with this person.
I don't think I'mneurodivergent, but sometimes my
(13:58):
emails can come across very,very much Like, very like, like
it's.
Here's the information.
I'm not gonna fluff it Like,this is it, and it might rub
people the wrong way, but whenthey have a conversation with me
it's totally different.
So I'm wondering if maybe therewas, you know, lack of
understanding for the team,which is not their fault, cause
(14:20):
how are they gonna be told ifthey're not told they don't know
what they don't know?
Kia (14:23):
No, that's an excellent point, but I also see the other
side of it where a person maynot want to share that, like I.
Just I think that the difficultdecision to make.
Gina (14:35):
And he did talk about that too, Cause he was like I don't
always divulge during theinterview process, but after I'm
employed there, then I will.
Nicola (14:45):
Also, there's that element of psychological safety,
right, if you don't feel safein your workplace to be able to
disclose that you areneurodivergent or that you have
any other hidden disability orwhatever it is that you're
coming to work with, then maybethat's what needs to be assessed
, right, is that psychological?
Gina (15:03):
safety.
Maybe that's not a good company.
That's a good fit for thisperson who does have this sort
of unseen disability.
Nicola (15:10):
This is fast, I love.
We're also fascinated by this.
Now we're like obsessed.
Gina (15:14):
And we sound like we're experts.
Nicola (15:16):
We literally know shit about shit, we know shit.
Gina (15:19):
We have one really great conversation with this guy who
does know and now we're like, oh, we know all the stuff.
All right, we know it all.
Kia (15:27):
So I do think, though I do think what he spoke to us about
is directly related to theanecdote you just shared, so
yeah, yeah, I'm looking forwardto that introduction Because I
think where we're going is we'regoing to have to create a new
(15:47):
like I don't remember which oneof you said, but it's almost
like a D, e and I offering orlike a new consideration, and
there's gonna have to be a newframework totally built around
what it means to beneurodivergent in the workplace
expectations, disclosures, etcetera Cause so many people are
(16:07):
getting having the tools now toproudly identify themselves as
being neurodivergent andrecognizing the challenges that
that may present to them in theworkplace.
I just, I think it's like this,really new and uncharted
territory.
I think it's gonna be superinteresting.
Gina (16:23):
Agreed, Agreed Cause.
Now it's being talked about somuch more.
I think it was never reallytalked about, you know, as
widely as it is now Like anytimeI open Instagram, it's
somebody's like oh, I just foundout I had ADHD or I'm
neurodivergent, or you know.
Nicola (16:43):
So yeah, I definitely think it's what's happening for
the person with the shittyemails what, what, what was?
Gina (16:47):
the outcome.
What happened to her?
Yeah, she quit.
Nicola (16:51):
Oh.
Kia (16:53):
Yeah, yeah, she said it just seems like everybody hates
me and I've upset everyone somuch and I think it was just
best to file it.
I mean, I think it could havebeen handled differently, right?
So like, even if theinvestigation landed that we
found that she violated theorganization's policies around
being, you know, respectful andprofessional in the workplace,
(17:15):
that's something that can becoached and addressed.
I don't think it was necessaryfor her to quit.
Nobody, you know, pressured her.
That wasn't our recommendationthat she be fired.
She just said she just she'dhad enough.
Nicola (17:25):
So yeah, I'm curious to dig a little deeper now because
in our first chat that we had wespoke quite a bit about
microaggressions and how thoseare starting to reflect like in
the workplace now and how hardit is to kind of investigate
those right.
Kia (17:43):
Sure.
Nicola (17:43):
So I'd love to go into maybe some of the cases you've
had like not recently.
Obviously we're not going to gointo like peoples
investigations, but you knowsome of the cases that you've
had where you've gone.
Oh, wow this is actually reallycurly and really tricky to
unpack.
Kia (18:02):
Sure, sure, that's a great question.
Well, you and I said when wewere talking last time, we're
like, maybe it shouldn't even becalled a microaggression, like,
because that in and of itself,like minimizes the importance of
what's occurring.
And what I said to you and whatI'll say to you again is how
many microaggressions does ittake before it becomes toxic,
(18:24):
like, it becomes like amacroaggression or just like an
awful place to exist and be aperson from historically
marginalized groups.
So I want to think through this.
I am doing the work with a lotof organizations right now,
helping them figure out what aremicroaggressions, defining them
(18:47):
in a way that people understandthem, and what are we doing
when people repeatedly engage inthe microaggressions, right?
So I'm in the middle of aninvestigation right now and the
person who's made the complaintis a black woman and like, I
would say like a middlemanagement kind of position, and
she was just like the amount ofmicroaggressions that she's
(19:08):
been made to endure, it's justnon-stop.
Let me give you a few.
She just says you know peoplesay microaggressive comments to
her like very much in the tropeof like the angry black woman
stereotype.
So when I'm interviewing peopleabout their relationship with
her and their interactions withher.
(19:28):
They're like, yeah, she'saggressive, she talks too loud.
I feel like she's yelling at usin the meetings.
So they're repeating themicroaggressions back to me,
right.
So I'm like, well, this personis clearly not making this up,
talking over her in meetings,telling her openly in meetings
(19:48):
like I don't agree with that,that's not the way we do it,
that's not it.
And then someone actually toldher recently that she should
really lead, she should beginmeetings with new people by
talking about herself, herbackground and her restimate,
and that way people wouldrespect her as the leader of a
meeting.
And okay, so put all of thosetogether like roll it up in a
(20:13):
ball.
Nicola (20:14):
And then we've got our gaggle.
Did we go with a gaggle ofmicroaggressions?
Kia (20:18):
Like I can not turn to this person and say it's just
microaggressions, like theorganization and I are now
working together saying how dowe address this?
Because all of these thingscumulatively is like a lot for
someone to handle and a lot todeal with.
And she wants to quit and Idon't blame her, so I get it.
(20:39):
That's terrible.
Gina (20:40):
So why do they think they can say that to someone Like?
What do they think?
Why do they think they can saythat to someone?
And then, what do you do whensomebody like, what do you do?
If somebody is actually has avery loud talking voice and it's
maybe not always appropriate,like they sit near you and
(21:01):
they're on the phone, orwhatever, how do you then say
like, hey, I'm so sorry, butlike you might not realize how
loud you are, or whatever, canyou just?
Like inside voice please.
Nicola (21:11):
Which is what I tell my daughter.
But oh my God, I said that tomy son in the car.
Gina (21:14):
I'm like we're inside car voice.
So it's like, how then do youbecause again back to your point
, keeley, people are stupid,people are humans, they're gonna
fuck up, they're gonna mess uphow do you get your point across
in a way that isn't considereda microaggression?
Kia (21:30):
Right.
So the first thing is, why didthey think that they could do
that?
Because this particularorganization, and where's
geographically located, is witha lot of people that have very
little experience with beingaround people of color at all,
much less working with them andvery much so not being
supervised by them.
So, and the one thing I willsay is like there are different
(21:54):
organizations that have moresophisticated employees when it
comes to these matters.
So there's some organizationslike do you think about like a
big corporate company in NewYork, to be told and I was told
that you did this, oh no, Ididn't mean that these people,
just very straight faced, werelike yes, that's that to her.
Like they're not even educatedin like the space to understand,
(22:15):
like why these things would beoffensive.
I don't know Just the way thatthe black woman interpreted
people saying we feel likeyou're yelling at us, it's like
it's because I'm black and I'mleading a meeting and you're
very uncomfortable with the ideaof being led by a black person.
I think if it had been thatalone, people say I talked well
(22:37):
during meetings, we wouldn't bewhere we are.
But it's just all of thosethings together, it's just it's
been very difficult for her.
Gina (22:46):
So what is the point of having, like I understand that
you're investigating, but thenwhat?
What is the outcome of theinvestigation?
Kia (22:54):
Is it?
Gina (22:54):
do you make recommendations to the company?
Do you like, and how does thatwork in terms of legality, like
do you sometimes have suggestthe individual to sue the
company?
What do you do with all thatinformation after you've
gathered it through theinvestigation?
Kia (23:10):
So at the conclusion of the investigation I do was called a
final investigative report andthat walks through introduction,
the scope of methodology thatwas used for the investigation,
the standard of evidence thatwas used, the preponderance of
the evidence, was it more likelythan not that the allegations
occurred?
And then the investigationreport does end with findings,
(23:31):
conclusions and recommendationsfor the path forward.
So might be.
You know that this personthere's a very wide range of
course of corrective actionswhen an investigation lands with
this person probably engaged inthe misconduct.
So that could be mandatorytraining, that could be
sensitivity training, that couldbe microaggression training,
that could be suspension, thatcould be termination.
(23:53):
It's just a really wide rangeof corrective action.
And then I hand that to theorganization when they decide
how they'd like to handle it.
Nicola (24:03):
You know I feel like that's something in New Zealand
that we're really just a littlebit far behind on is kind of
that microaggression awarenessand that microaggression
knowledge.
I want to say and it'ssomething that I'm surprised
that we haven't addressedgenerally is that concept of
(24:25):
microaggressions or how thosecould manifest or what those
actually look like for peoplethat are living them right?
What would you recommend as youknow for like a starting point
for people to kind of startunpicking what it could look
like in their workplace.
Kia (24:47):
Right, right.
So I think every workplace isdifferent based on the
demographics, but I think peoplecan.
They can do a Google search ofmicroaggressions and look at
examples.
I think that is very importantfor organizations and senior
management to really have thatdiscussion with employees and
identifying it by name.
This is a microaggression.
(25:07):
Here are examples of it.
We have an anti microaggressionpolicy.
If you are found to haveengaged in microaggressions, you
know this is the range ofcorrective actions that you
could be subjected to.
This was interesting about thatmicroaggression piece because
this is such like a new andfresh and emerging area is that
(25:31):
there is an organization thatI'm not going to name, but it's
a very, very, very large companyin New York City, based in
Manhattan, and they have justmade a decision that if you are
accused of engaging in threemicroaggressive acts that's
based on, like you know, race,ethnicity, gender, sexuality,
(25:55):
that automatically triggers anoutside investigator coming in
and doing the investigationautomatically.
Gina (26:02):
How do those?
Nicola (26:02):
get like logged.
Gina (26:04):
I was just going to say how does it get reported and how
is it proven?
Like I feel like it's going tobe so difficult.
You have a great example wherethe people don't even know how
to like cover their own asseswith this one woman, wherever
you were originally describingthe microaggressions, but, like
you know, if it's in New YorkCity, most people are savvy
(26:25):
enough to at least be like oh myGod, I had no idea.
Even said like they might do alittle CYA right Whether and I
think it might be harder toprove when there's more savvy
people involved.
So let's hear about that.
Kia (26:39):
My experience at the human resources business partners
within this particularorganization.
They are really excellentrecord keepers, right.
So it's like you know.
First I heard that Gina, mayyou know, misgender someone.
Then I heard that Gina made anasty crack about Pride Week.
Then I heard that Gina made anasty crack about Black Lives
(27:00):
Matter, right.
So you're just you'redocumenting this and really
trying to have like a system inplace where you're like that's
three.
This is just an example.
I'm not like that.
I appreciate thisorganization's stance that
they're taking, because they'rerealizing like it can't just be
that HR is like eh, you know,these are interpersonal issues,
(27:23):
because at a certain point itgets way beyond being
interpersonal issues and it'slike I don't want to be here.
Yeah, I don't want to be here.
So you know they're trying topay attention to it.
I'm very interested in seeinghow long they keep this going
and if they're seeing results,right.
Nicola (27:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Because, like you know again
what are the outcomes.
So you've got this new policyin place of three strikes and
you're out essentially.
So you know what's the outcomeof this.
Do we have people that are nowfearful or, oh, you know,
something I might say ismisconstrued?
As a microaggression or am Ijust being a blatant asshole at
(28:06):
work Right?
Kia (28:10):
Sure, I think that people could definitely be fearful, but
I also do understand thelong-term implications of what
occurs when people just keepsaying offensive things whether
you want to call themmicroaggressions or not, it just
it has a really, really likejust a really negative effect on
the workplace overall.
Nicola (28:31):
Yeah.
Gina (28:32):
So.
But I feel like, with all theserules right, like how does that
create a psychologically safethat's what you're saying,
nicola, like the fear.
How does it create apsychologically safe work
environment where you know ifsomebody did say something and
you want to report it, or if yousaid something and you truly
(28:54):
didn't mean it.
That way, like I misgenderedsomebody once and it was a
complete accident, like I calledAhia Shi or vice versa, I don't
remember.
It was just like I wasn'tthinking clearly.
I was like getting to my pointand it just accidentally came
out.
Like I don't know I would, Iwould be terrified of doing one
thing wrong in a situation likethat.
Kia (29:16):
Right.
I think people have to beterrified of doing one thing
wrong.
I just I just think that'swhere we are right now and I
don't know if that's the rightanswer, but I think that what's
what happened to my light.
I just think that and I meanand I want to make this clear
when there are instances wherein this organization where
(29:37):
they're saying you know, if youare alleged to have engaged in
like three micro aggressivecomments, et cetera, that
automatically triggers anoutside investigation, that does
not mean that person's going tobe terminated.
It just means that we're goingto get a fresh set of eyes on
this and maybe you neededucation and training.
Regarding the micro aggressivestatements and why what you said
(29:57):
was problematic, theorganization that particular
organization, I think isapproaching it for much more of
a learning and growing angle asopposed to being super punitive
for people making mistakes which.
Nicola (30:14):
I think is the right.
Kia (30:14):
I think that's the right way to handle it.
Nicola (30:17):
Yeah Now, because I know I know a number of lovely
people and I know that thequestion is going to be like you
know, yeah, but what's thepoint?
Right, what's the point?
Because, you know,microaggressions are really just
imagined.
(30:39):
You know there's a whole systemof thinking where actually
microaggressions aren't really athing.
So what do we say to thesepeople?
What are we saying to you know,aunt Agnes, who has got no
concept?
What are we saying to thepeople that are not aware of the
problematic nature that comeswith microaggressions?
(31:00):
Because I think there'sprobably going to be some of our
listeners that are like there'sno such thing.
Come now, stop there, stop thatcrap, Right.
Kia (31:09):
What's the big deal?
I mean, I think there are somepeople who are just generally
resistant to it as a concept,but what I always try to explain
to people is it's death by athousand paper cuts, right?
So standing alone, maybe it's,you know, not earth shaking, but
just being subjected to thatagain and again, and again.
(31:31):
And one example that I givepeople is imagine something
you're insecure about the waythat you look, the way that you
dress your financial situation,whatever, whatever and someone
just keeps on making weirdcomments about it.
Number one first time, yeah,maybe let it roll off your back,
but after a certain amount oftime, this is something that is
(31:55):
a core part of your identity andwho you are.
Can you agree that at a certainpoint, you would start to feel
angry, hurt, disrespected andmarginalized?
And when I say that to people,they do start to get it.
Nicola (32:08):
Yeah, that's actually a really good example because that
gives you like that youpersonalize it for people, right
, Because I think that's the bigthing is people don't get that.
There is an end.
Gina (32:21):
It's a hard thing to be empathetic about, unless you're
thinking about it, how it mightpersonally affect you, right?
Because it's like you don'treally, especially if you're not
, like, very self-aware, youknow.
So.
I don't think many people areself-aware.
I think it's rare that you havehigh functioning, high good
(32:41):
employees that are alsocompletely self-aware.
Like I think it's a very rarecombination, but yeah, I mean.
Nicola (32:53):
It's such a fascinating topic.
I think that you know, and thenagain I'm guessing you can
combine the two together.
Now you've got microaggressions, you've also got
neurodivergency as well, andyou're combining those two
together for, like a perfectstorm of you know situations in
the workplace that would lenditself to being very toxic, and
(33:16):
you've got people around youthat are just going like what is
happening.
Kia (33:21):
Right, and I think that a lot of organizations have been
put on notice.
I was watching the news this isyears ago.
This is not my face, I did notcome up with it, but I stole it
and I like to use it all thetime Just talking about, like
social media and cancel culture,and the person on the news was
saying that what we've seen overthe last few years has been the
democratization of themicrophone, right?
(33:43):
So it's not.
You don't have to go file alawsuit, you don't have to go
get a PR person to get a messageout there.
You can just send out a tweetor you could post something on
LinkedIn, right?
And I think a lot oforganizations that have recently
gotten pressed bad pressedabout being organizations that
are toxic or harmful for blackpeople or queer people, etc.
(34:08):
It's usually because of a bunchof microaggressions.
So you now have 20 people thatidentify as being queer and they
each have five microaggressionseach.
They feel like they've endured.
You put that together and nowit's a New York Times article,
right, about how this is areally difficult, you know,
place for a certain group ofpeople, and that's why, you know
(34:30):
, when we do like themicroaggression math, you have
to be really careful with howyou're quantifying it and how
you're quantifying things andhow you're counting things.
Nicola (34:44):
So I feel like and this is maybe the incorrect thing,
right but I feel like withsexual you know, sexual
inappropriateness, because thatcould be very many things, right
I feel like that's more likecut and dry You've got a really
clear indication that oh yeahyou get.
you gave me the heebie-jeebies,you touched my boob, like
(35:06):
whatever it is.
I feel like you've got a reallyclear indication that this is
not the right thing to do,whereas now you've kind of got
this really like, I want to say,almost grey area of information
, where you've really got todeep dive and really kind of get
(35:26):
into the workplace's culture tounderstand exactly what's
coming out of it more.
How do you approach that?
Like when you go into anorganization, like what are some
of the first questions you'reasking to kind of get that
culture pulse check?
Kia (35:45):
Right.
So I generally like to startwith the person who hired us, so
that could be their generalcounsel, their head of human
resources, their head of theemployee experience, just like
how would you describe theculture of this place?
People are usually prettytransparent about that.
Like, eh, people don't reallylike it here.
We have a really high turnover.
We have a problem withrecruiting this particular type
(36:06):
of historically marginalizedgroup of employees to come here.
We have a problem with peopleleaving.
You know, and one of the thingsI always say is, like, do you
know what your trending issuesare right now?
Like, is it racially basedmicroaggressions?
Is it misgendering?
Is it sexual harassment?
And I feel like once I havekind of put my arms around that,
(36:26):
then I'm in a better positionfor understanding the culture of
the organization, to addresswhat's going on in a way that'll
be helpful.
Nicola (36:36):
And what are some of the questions you end up asking the
employees?
Do they kind of know you'recoming?
Are they prepared for that?
You know how can someoneprepare for you coming in to
question them?
Kia (36:49):
Sure.
So there's some language that Isend to whoever the person is.
That's going to make theintroduction between myself and
witnesses and it talks throughwho I am, what we'll be
discussing and I you know.
If you have anything that youthink would be helpful for me to
see ie emails, text messages,screenshots, etc.
If you could have that readyfor our meeting, that would be
great.
(37:09):
And in terms of preparation,you know, I always say that it's
very rare that I speak tosomeone once.
Right, I'll speak to.
I have an interview withsomeone once and let's say, oh
my God, I forgot to mention thisand then we'll get on another
call, because we're human andthat's just the way our brains
work.
But I always want to givepeople as much opportunity as
(37:29):
they want and need to reallywalk through what their
experience has been and so thatwe can approach it in a
substantive way.
Gina (37:39):
Because I think, like, especially with talking about
microaggressions like versus,you know something that might be
a little more cut and dry, likewhat Nicola said sexual
inappropriateness.
How does it, how do you stop itfrom becoming a?
He said?
She said, because I just likein my head it just feels like
somebody's going to be like well, you said blah, blah, blah and
(38:00):
X me.
Nicola (38:01):
You said I was too loud in the meeting.
Okay, well, you were too loudin the meeting.
Gina (38:07):
Or just like oh no, I didn't say that, I insinuated it
like, or you know, like.
I just feel like it can be somuddy like, and so hard to kind
of pull out the truth, becauseyou know, everyone has their own
idea of the truth or how theyexperienced the situation, and
it's like you have to come andkind of find the middle ground
(38:29):
which is the actual truth.
So how do you do that with andlike, how does that work?
Like I wouldn't I?
The whole idea overwhelms me inmy mind.
I'm like oh my God, I wouldn'tknow what said be like
everyone's talking at me,they're using too many words.
Please let me look like yeah,how do you?
Kia (38:46):
What exactly like?
What's the approach for whatpiece of it?
Gina (38:51):
Well, like when you're gathering, he said that he
should, she should, and fromgetting like being bogged down
and so and so said this, and soand so said this.
And how do you kind of arriveon your truth?
Kia (39:09):
So right, and just by nature of a lot of these
investigations, a lot of themare, he said, she said
situations.
That's just the way it is.
You know, this person did notmake this offensive comment in
front of the whole team, theyjust said it specifically to you
, right?
So when it lands that way, youknow I'll try to, I'll try to
(39:30):
speak to the person that madethe complaint right when I'm
like you know what this is atough one.
I'm not saying you madesomething up or you were being
overly sensitive, but don'treally know where to land with
this one.
I'll say, ideally, what wouldyou like to have in here?
And I found that to be a super,super helpful question because
I might will just say I justdon't want them to do it again
(39:51):
and I can go to the person andsay, listen, this is what you
said, this is how it wasinterpreted and received, this
is the impact it had upon thisperson.
In the future, maybe we shouldtry to fill in the blank, right?
And I think that that sometimesthat's the best.
It's going to be right, likeit's not always going to be.
Oh my God, I cracked the case.
(40:12):
I know what happened here.
It's not always going to belike here comes the hammer and
you're getting fired and walkedout by like security right, like
there's a lot of shame.
Gina (40:22):
Sure, because I'm like.
I'm like, oh my God, what ifyou went into someplace and
found like a whole likeembezzling scheme that was big.
You know, like this is like thestuff like TV makes you think
right, like go live, and allthese things.
It's like you go into, likesettle a little thing, and then
it's like there's a big thingbehind it.
So I'm waiting to hear thatstory, which you may not have
yet, but you know, yeah, it wason.
(40:48):
Amazon Prime is about a lawyerwho, like took a small case and
then it turned into this bigthing.
So, as he was investigating it,it like turned into like a
whole like thing there was.
Like you know, good, I like itvery good, it's very good look,
there's no more season for a newshow.
Nicola (41:06):
Yeah, the lie in the consultant.
Have you done the consultantyet?
Kia (41:09):
Yes, and I really, really liked it.
We're obsessed with it.
Gina (41:16):
I didn't like the issue too.
He's gold, he's just a man madeof gold.
He's a non entity, he's justlike a machine.
Anyway, we digress.
Try Goliath, we digress.
Nicola (41:34):
Circling back.
So okay, so coming in.
Gina (41:40):
So many of those crazy investigations where it turned
into be something way like youwere like, oh shit, that was
just like the tip of iceberg.
If you have to think about it,the answer is no, because you
would know.
Yeah no, I don't think so it'sso big that you would be like
yup.
Kia (41:58):
I don't feel like I've had a ton of investigation where,
like the scope becomes like huge, I'm like, oh my goodness, like
it usually stays prettyconfined, no scope creep.
But I will say this is once Ienter the picture, people are
usually extremely excited tospeak with me.
Usually they just are.
Gina (42:22):
Do they just want to spill the tea, Are they like?
Let me tell you what John Smithdid to me one day.
Nicola (42:28):
Oh my God, Shannon.
In accounting the worst.
Kia (42:31):
They almost turned into like therapy sessions and I just
have to sit there.
I'm like, well, that's some,you know.
It's like, well, I don't knowanything about what John said to
Sue, but I do know when I wason maternity leave, they kept
emailing me and they wouldn'tgive me a break, you know.
So you just have to let peoplespeak about their experiences,
and which is also good, becauseat the conclusion of the
(42:52):
investigation, I'm able to goback to a client and say I know
we were investigating thisspecific allegation, but I want
to make up where other concernsthat people have brought up
during my conversations withthem.
Gina (43:05):
No, and don't you think that kind of gives you an uh
like a sort of brief snapshot ofthe company culture, when
you're hearing all like, whenyou start hearing extraneous
things, but they're all sort ofstarting to line up?
Kia (43:18):
Yes, I think that's exactly right.
I think with the work that I do, sometimes it becomes very
clear to me that I have thecomplete buy-in of the
leadership and you know they arereally taking this seriously
and sometimes it's like youaren't taking this seriously at
all.
You know, like it's a riskmanagement move.
(43:38):
There was an investigation thatfinished recently and it was a
man that was accused of sexuallyharassing his female coworker.
So I completed theinvestigation.
This I feel very confident thatthis happened.
Like this man sexually harassedher at a company event.
Her face falls like the wholetable is looking like it was
(43:58):
very obvious that you know hesaid something right.
So I complete the investigation.
I found that he did, you know,engage in this conduct and he
violated your company's code ofconduct regarding sexual
harassment.
Like he's going to have toattend a training.
I have a good friend who doesthat type of training.
He's like got it, got it.
I'm like, okay, now this is theCEO of the organization.
(44:20):
He was like thank you so much.
Okay, so let's set up a callbetween you, him and myself and
we'll talk through your findings.
I'm like let's do it.
I mean, we do that all the time.
We got on that call, the CEOlike threw me under the bus
Weird way.
He's like I don't see anythinghere.
I'm like we just spoke aboutthis yesterday Like you could
(44:40):
not be serious.
So in organizations like that,you know, the CEO was like we're
on the world of college, wherehe's on board, we're on board.
He's like I got it, I got it, Igot it.
And then we got on the callwith the person who engaged in
this sexual harassment andyou're like minimizing it and
like questioning theinvestigation and I was like
what was the point of thisexercise?
Gina (45:02):
You know what I mean.
Like, why did he do that 180?
That's so weird.
Kia (45:08):
Because this particular organization, a lot of their
money, is based on sales andhe's one of their best salesman
and I think once he got intothat meeting, he started to
think I don't love that he didthis, but at the same time I
don't want to ostracize him andmake him leave.
I think that's exactly whathappened.
Gina (45:27):
But couldn't he just say that?
But, like, I do think you didthis, it was, like you know, a
small blip on your radar Like,obviously this is inappropriate.
We're going to send you fortraining, we're here to.
You know, like couldn't he haveannounced like or just like
discussed it in a way that wasnurturing rather than minimizing
?
Kia (45:44):
like you know, we're not going to point you very much,
chose not to and it definitelyfelt like a good old boys moment
, you know, like a nonsense, andit's like you know what.
You did not have to hire me forthis.
Gina (45:59):
You could have just ignored it.
You get paid.
At the end of the day, you getpaid.
Who fucking cares?
I'd like get that money.
Kia (46:09):
That was pretty rare.
Most people don't get.
Gina (46:12):
Yeah, like, does that?
Does it feel demoralizing whenthat happens?
Are you just like, whatever Idid what I was hired to do, I
did a good job and now it's outof my hands.
Like, how do you, how do youfeel?
And again, you said it was rare, so you know.
Kia (46:29):
I don't say it was demoralizing, but it was
shocking, like because the CEOseemed like a guy and I think
usually when people hire me it'sbecause you're taking this
seriously, Like if you'reinvolved in cover ups and like
you know, sticking your head inthe sand, you're not hiring us,
like you're just not so for youknow for us to have been hired
(46:50):
and then for them to have forhim to have taken that position
on the call with him.
It just was confusing.
But I think I've just realizedthat you know it's one of those
organizations that is veryconcerned about bottom line and
profitability and he's one oftheir best salesman and the
takeaway that I got from thatconversation was that you know
profitability and margins inthat organization are more
(47:13):
important than workplace culture.
Gina (47:15):
That was the takeaway which is probably detrimental to
the company as a whole, versusjust like just approaching this
one good sales person and thensay like we value you, we don't
want to lose you, we do need tosend you for this training.
Let's figure out a way you knowcollectively to make you better
and more comfortable here, LikeI do believe it was a one off,
(47:37):
like you could have even thrownthe guy a bone, like you were
probably drunk, right, wouldn'thave done this normally.
Whatever you could have givenhim a bone, but still gotten the
point across and done it in away that maybe makes him even
feel valued as an employee there.
Kia (47:54):
Very confidently that this person is going to do this again
.
Gina (47:59):
Just, I heard too many things.
But I mean you know better thanme, so like, but you know, I
mean he probably will yeah andhe had a thing with the young
sales women always being aroundand he wanted to mentor them.
It was just like a lot ofthings that put my radar out.
Nicola (48:17):
Yeah, yeah, this was one off, so yeah, you know, we're
kind of coming into the sillyseason, right, what we call the
silly season, which is a greatopportunity for us to have
Christmas parties and get drunkand do inappropriate things for
no particular reason.
Because, you know, just becausewe're wearing I heard at a
(48:39):
conference the other day justbecause we're wearing the hot
hot dog suit doesn't mean westop being.
You know, joe from HR.
What are the things that peoplecan do to avoid that happening
at their functions or work?
Things that are coming up Don'tdrink, you can't.
Kia (49:04):
You're like you can only be responsible for yourself, right
?
And this, this person who madeit sexually inappropriate remark
to this to his female employee.
He said to her Do you know whyyou're the number one
salesperson in your region?
And she's like because I workreally hard.
He's like no, it's becauseyou're f and hot.
You know just so.
(49:25):
So in that particular situationthere's not anything that this
woman could have done to stophim saying that with me that I'm
like, that's not even that bad,I've had worse.
Oh my well, she, she, she.
But when I spoke to her she waslike it's two things.
First of all, I thought it wasinappropriate.
She's like.
Second of all, we're like youknow, like one of those big
(49:45):
rounded table.
She's like I had a visiblereaction because I was upset and
embarrassed and everyone'sturning and looking at me like
what's going on over there, andshe was like a number three.
I work extremely hard.
She was like so it was, youknow, offensive to me for all of
those different.
Gina (50:01):
I'm not saying that it's not.
I'm just saying what the fuckis wrong with me, that I'm like
comparison everything else I'vebeen through and like my, my
like whatever 20 plus career ofbeing, like you know, working.
Kia (50:13):
I've had worse said to me as well, which is also why, when
the organization hired me to dothe investigation and then kind
of like this 180 at the end, Iwas like huh, that's interesting
.
Gina (50:25):
Yeah, I mean, granted, all those things that happens to me
were like in the early 2000s,like I don't.
I think we've come a long wayin corporate culture in America
in terms of what is appropriateand what's not.
Kia (50:38):
Takeaways.
So one thing that I always tellpeople and this is whether it's
related to microaggression,sexual harassment, bullying,
just anything that is makingyour workplace experience
negative.
Document it right, I thinksometimes people think what it
looks like to assert yourself orreally properly document was
(51:02):
happening.
You right, you don't need to goget a lawyer, that you don't
need to pay a retainer, youdon't need to go get like a
secret recording device.
You know, you can just use anote section of your app and you
know this date, this time.
This person said this.
We were here.
It may be this date, this time.
This person made me feel thisway and you know, ultimately,
(51:24):
whether a person decides to goto human resources, or they
decide to file a lawsuit, orthey decide to get a lawyer to
help negotiate their exit, it'shelpful in every single instance
.
So that's my one that I alwaysgive everybody.
If you are being subjected tothings that you don't like and
don't feel good within theworkplace and you know really
(51:44):
bearing on the edge ofmisconduct, just keep a really
good record of it while you'regoing through the decision
process of deciding how you wantto handle things.
Nicola (51:53):
What are some of the things that people can keep a
track of like other than youknow noting down?
You know interactions.
Or, let's say, in the case ofmicroaggressions, you know,
noting down what themicroaggression was, for example
, yeah, you know so and somisgendered me today on purpose.
You know whatever it was.
(52:13):
What other things can peoplekeep evidence of?
Kia (52:20):
Um, so I would just say that my general rule of thumb is
, like we all know, when thingsdon't feel good, right.
Like when somebody makes acomment and you can't
necessarily define it or maybeput a name on it, but you're
like you know the young kids saylike it gives you the X right.
Like somebody just sayssomething that you don't like,
just just just put it down, evenif you never do anything with
(52:42):
it.
If you're at the job foranother six months and then you
leave for your dream job, it'sjust good to have, because you
don't know at what point thingsare going to change, essentially
gonna say, oh my goodness, I'vegot to negotiate my way out of
here, and now you're trying topiece together these previous
experiences that you had.
It's really good to have itdown on paper in one centralized
location, or not on paper, butlike in your phone okay and okay
(53:07):
.
Nicola (53:07):
so what are some other ways, like Businesses, for
example, what are some ways thatbusinesses can prepare or like
almost get ready for if you wereto come in and Investigate them
, what is the best way forbusinesses to prepare in that
instance?
Kia (53:24):
Now I would say that a lot of organizations really need to
be thoughtful about when do theythink it's time to pull an
independent investigator right.
But I think that lies within alot of organizations being very
brutally honest with themselvesabout the capabilities and
experience level of their humanresources function.
You know there's a lot ofworking in Jason's.
(53:45):
They just said we love our HRpeople, they're the best.
They don't know how to do thistype of work, so we have to get
you and your firm to come in.
So I think that there are a lotof organizations who realize
that and I think that's thefirst thing, like organizations
being honest with themselvesabout what is the capacity in
bandwidth of our human resourcesteam?
Do we feel like they areequipped and Educated and
(54:07):
knowledgeable enough to handlean investigation into really
sensitive allegations ofmisconduct related to race,
ethnicity, gender, sexuality,etc.
And then organizations reallyhave to do the work of Creating
you know what theirnon-negotiables are right.
So like really that's not justsexual harassment anymore.
(54:27):
You know, like I said earliertalking about civility, that's
become like a really hot topiclately and a lot of
organizations that I've beendoing work with him.
Nicola (54:36):
Just people speak to each other rudely and sin rude
emails, you would assume thatcivility is just kind of a given
.
Kia (54:43):
It's not.
I Did an investigation recentlyand I shouldn't laugh because
it's not funny, but it was likethis person like checked the
wrong box.
You remember like we used whenyou would get paychecks at work
and you could do like taxelections, like there's a
certain amount of taxes come outof the paper and she like
checked the wrong thing and gota paycheck for like three
(55:07):
dollars or something becauseshe's like check the wrong boxes
.
Gina (55:13):
I feel like, yeah, I feel like I've done something like
that.
I've been like I thought I washelping myself, but I like the
language is so sort of murkythat you're like doing the exact
opposite.
Yeah, I so she's going nuts.
Kia (55:27):
So she's reaching out to the human resources business
partner I want my money, I wantmy money.
How do you think it would beokay to pay you three?
Pay me three dollars.
And the woman's like you checkthe boxes, like this is how we
got here.
So she's like I want my money,I want my money.
And to the point that the humanresources person now reaches
(55:48):
out to me and was like I needyou to do an investigation Into
her, against me.
She's bullying and triggeringme at this point for a mistake
that she made.
Yeah, so when I reach out to thewho went nuts about the
paycheck.
I'm like let's just let's setsome time on the calendar.
I just want to talk about whathappened.
This person was really upsetabout the interactions that they
had with you and the way youbehaved about the paycheck, and
(56:09):
this person called me stupid.
She was like this is stupid,you're ridiculous, you're a joke
to me.
Gina (56:16):
You're like I'm just, I'm just a third party man.
I don't have any skin in thegame.
Kia (56:20):
We alone, which I actually found to be interesting.
That is a very extreme example.
Most people when I come aroundare like on their best behavior,
this person not so much.
So the way she was, you know,really coming after the HR
business partner, calling themall hours of the night.
It's 11 o'clock, where's mymoney?
(56:41):
I mean, what are we callingthat?
Bullying, harassment andcivility?
I think organizations reallyhave to be thoughtful about how
they're defining certain typesof misconduct and then creating
a really concrete set ofcorrective actions for the
misconduct when it's when it'sfound that it has occurred.
Gina (57:00):
Yeah, so what ended up happening with that one
particular thing?
I'm curious.
Kia (57:05):
Well, bonnie, you should mention that, because my
recommendation was for thisperson to be terminated, right,
because this person that hadmultiple blow-ups of people and
just seemed just really unstableand just it just didn't seem
good and I was worried aboutthis, you know, continuing to be
a recurring issue within theorganization.
That particular organization Iwas called in after a really,
(57:31):
really really high profilepublication wrote a scathing
article about the workplaceculture and Senior leadership
was too scared to fire thisperson because they thought that
this person was going to goback to the press and say some
more bad things.
So she remains at thatorganization to this day.
Gina (57:49):
Did she ever get the whole pay thing figured out?
Yes, like that, like I don'tunderstand how, like, got to
that level like I would justlike oh shit, I marked the wrong
box.
How can we figure this out so Ican Unmark on market and just
pay me what I should have beenpaid like?
How well, how does it get tolike such a crazy level like
(58:09):
that?
I don't have an answer.
I know that I got and it may.
Kia (58:16):
it cracked me up, no pun intended.
I was like I'm a joke, youcheck the wrong thing you stupid
bitch who can't read today, whocan't?
Nicola (58:27):
read.
You can't read.
You know what I like to do,that I'm like you're probably
right, but the issue at handhere, like just agree with them.
Gina (58:34):
Let him.
Let him go on with the bill.
Okay, I'm a joke and you markthe wrong box.
Kia (58:44):
Yeah.
Nicola (58:48):
I'm here because of you, but I'm a joke.
Okay, yeah, please tell all ofour.
Gina (58:50):
Our followers.
If anyone's still listening tous at this point in the game,
anyone's still with us at theend of this episode.
I'm amazed.
Anyone who has made it this farin all of our podcast for all
of creation.
Nicola (59:04):
Ever Tell us where we can find you, kia, and we'll
link everything for our enough.
Gina (59:11):
My firm's website is wwwcom.
I'm here because of you, butI'm a joke, Okay, yeah please
tell all of our, our friends.
Kia (59:21):
Wwwtriangle investigations with an scom and you can find me
on LinkedIn Kia, kia last night, roberts, this has been a lot
of fun.
Gina (59:30):
Oh good, I'm so glad.
Thank you about Goliath.
It's on my list.
Kia (59:36):
All right, new friends, y'all are fun.
Let me know when it goes, wewill do Okay.
Thank you for having me resttoday.
Thank you, you too.
Bye.
Hey, do you want to?
Why don't you introduceyourself to our listeners, tell
us a little bit about who youare, what you do, what you want
to come on and Chit Chat with usabout again?
We're just so thrilled that youdo want to come and chit chat
with us, so yeah, I'm happy tobe here as well, thank you.
Kia (00:18):
So I'm Kia Roberts and I'm the founder and principal of
triangle investigations, andtriangle is a group of lawyers
and expert investigatorsconducting misconduct
Investigations within workplaces, schools and other
organizations.
So when I say misconduct, thinksexual harassment,
discrimination, retaliation Letme also do sexual assault
investigations within collegecampuses and private schools.
(00:40):
Prior to founding my firm, thatwas the first ever director of
investigations for the NFL,where I did the investigations
for NFL players and employeesaccused of violating the NFL's
code of conduct.
So that was everything fromReplace bullying, sexual
harassment all the way to thesuper, super high profile
Incidents involving allegationsof domestic violence, sex abuse,
(01:02):
animal abuse and child abuse.
Prior to the NFL, I spent abouta decade as a prosecutor in the
district attorney's office inBrooklyn, new York, and I
finished my time there.
That's a homicide prosecutor,doing murder cases.
I got my law degree atVanderbilt, I got my
(01:23):
undergraduate degree at Duke andmy husband I have a
nine-year-old little girl and afive-year-old.
So that's that's.
That's my spiel.
Gina (01:30):
Okay, I.
Kia (01:32):
Already have me.
Gina (01:34):
I have questions already.
Michael Vic Was that you.
Kia (01:42):
I don't talk about NFL stuff.
Nicola (01:44):
So yeah, I don't know.
Nfl Football I love.
Is it that way?
Is it like football with theAmerican?
Gina (01:57):
Yeah, and there I'm so annoyed, just personally, not
really, but personally because Iwant.
I just wanted a yes or no.
I didn't need the details.
I also didn't want the detailsby the way, I'm lying to you I
did want the details, please.
Nicola (02:11):
I tell that I tell this woman that a woman has been,
unfortunately and horriblymurdered.
Oh my god, my street, and she'slike give me all the details.
I was like I don't have anydetails right now, except for
what's going on in the community.
Um yeah, we don't really havethat right.
It's not really.
It's not really our thing is tohave murders Did they catch the
(02:34):
person we don't know yet.
They've got some positive leads, but we don't know yet.
It's an island, it's not likethey're going anyway.
Gina (02:41):
And it's like just like yesterday, yeah, oh.
Nicola (02:46):
My goodness yeah first 48 at the end of my street.
Kia (02:52):
Did you say first 48?
Gina (02:57):
I Dead body rolled up in a rug on a hundred forty-fifth
and Frederick Douglass a fewyears ago and didn't realize it
until the whole Like sidewalkwas cordoned off by police.
And then I was like and then Iread about it like on the
internet Because I was likewhat's going on, I was like
googling it, and then I was like, oh, that's the rug.
I walk fast like totallyoblivious.
Nicola (03:22):
Okay, so circling back, so when you did these, like when
, when you started getting intolike workplace Investigations,
like what kind of lead you intothat space, because I feel like
that's an in I realized thatthat's an interesting Jump from
like NFL into like moreCorporate or different
workplaces.
Kia (03:43):
Nfl is Okay, got it, so the idea to found my firm came to
me.
I was actually on maternityleave with our baby, who's now
five.
So this is 2018 and this iswhen the me too movement was
really blowing up, and everyother second you were hearing
horrific allegations aboutHarvey Weinstein or someone else
(04:03):
just horrible doing things topeople, and I really saw a shift
in Multiple ships.
One of the main ships wasshifts, and cultural
expectations about what is andisn't okay at work right, like
certain comments or behaviorwere really starting to be
frowned upon.
And then I started to see thata lot of organizations at least
(04:26):
organizations that were tryingto do the right thing we're
really engaged in beingThoughtful and proactive about
creating safe and inclusiveWorkplaces, and that type of
work can take a lot of differentforms.
That could be that they wererequiring their employees to
attend anti-sexual harassmenttraining.
There's all these differentkind of.
(04:48):
At that period of time, therewas a really big societal shift
around this in a way that showedup tangibly in workplaces, in
my opinion, and then actuallynot too long after after, if you
consider the me too movement tobe over and I'm not sure that
it is, but not too long after meto really blew up.
You know New York Stateactually codified some things
(05:11):
into law around sexualharassment to really speak to
this moment.
So it was just like a reallytime and I just thought, you
know, I have a resume that'sreally well suited for this and
let me jump out there and seewhere it goes.
And it has gone up ceiling welland I'm just, I'm super, super
grateful.
I always say, you know, goodnews my business is going really
(05:33):
well.
Bad news people don't know howto behave themselves, so Right
well, right?
Gina (05:39):
Well, people are weird.
So I love that.
I love that you just kind ofcreated this whole thing for
yourself.
Nicola (05:45):
That's I also love this.
That's so awesome.
So what are some of the thingsthat you're seeing coming
through most favoritism, lee,you know what are some of the
things that are.
You know you're getting calledup the most and you know would
love to know as well, like, whendo people call you?
Like when is it in the, in theprocess, that they're like oh
(06:09):
shit, something's going down.
Kia (06:11):
Right, right, that's an excellent question and it goes a
few different ways.
I Say, if you are beingThoughtful and deliberate, you
call me or our firm, the lawyersthat work with me, kind of the
second that you start to get aninkling that there's about to be
some serious allegations, right?
So you get that first call fromHR or someone's manager and you
(06:35):
know a lot of the reasons thatpeople call us instead of doing
Investigations internally rightwithin their own HR department
is.
There's a lot of differentreasons.
People don't have the bandwidth.
I think that a lot oforganizations are realizing that
the amount of hats that HRprofessionals are being asked to
wear at this point it's justcompletely unreasonable.
And somebody who knows how tohandle Benefits and time off and
(06:57):
onboarding is not necessarilythe person that knows how to do
an investigation into reallysensitive occasions Related to
ethnicity, race, sexuality,gender, etc.
So some people call us when theyfirst realized, no, we really
don't have anybody in HR that wefeel comfortable with doing
this.
Option number two is the personwho the allegation is being made
(07:18):
against is in HR or it's, likeyou know, a senior person within
the organization and they just,you know, feel like for the
appearance and to avoid anyallegations of impropriety, it's
best to just outsource it.
And then option number three iswhen things really blow up in
the press.
We get the frantic call fromeither the company itself, their
(07:39):
crisis communication slashpublic relations people, or you
know their general counsel, and,unfortunately, once things are
in the press and you've gotten askating article or you know A
blurb on TV, it just it becomessuper, super time sensitive and
(08:01):
it's just not a posture that youwant to be in as an
organization, you know, becauseit looks like you're kind of
trying to sit on things untilyou really got forced into
taking action.
So that's kind of the range ofWays by which people approach us
and find this and do you findpeople are coming?
Nicola (08:16):
Is it more around Like a sexual or harassment
Allegations, or is it morearound, you know, as we kind of
become because I know you and Ispoke about this when we first
Held up is I'm curious to knowis it becoming more prevalent
that we're talking more aboutrace as well?
Kia (08:36):
Right.
So I would say the hot topicsright now are just general
discrimination and disparatetreatment, especially related to
allegations of race.
One other big trending Topicthat I've seen, I would say,
over the last year, is peoplehaving complaints about civility
(08:57):
Right, which isn't necessarilydiscrimination, but it's just
like people being reallyobnoxious to each other at work,
right, in a way that,especially if you're life from
historically marginalized group,you're like is this person a
jerk or is it just?
Or is this because I'm black oris it because I'm queer?
Whatever it might be, and thatcan sometimes be very, very
difficult to figure out.
(09:17):
I finished an investigationrecently where, um, you, one of
these team members you know,multiple team members were
saying that this person dealswith us in a way that is, it
feels bullying, it feels likebullying, it feels like being
personally attacked, and thisperson would send people emails
like okay, so imagine I sendGina an email.
(09:37):
You know half the words are inall caps.
I'm putting different fonts,some of them are well, like I
told you to, you know, just, andI think that the most of us
that feels a certain way likereading emails that are written
and scripted that way.
So the point is that person didthat and a few other things.
(10:00):
People were like I don't evenwant to interact with this
person, right, like the rootwhen they speak to me.
The emails are really nasty andI was working my way through it.
And there are people who madethe allegations against this
young woman.
They were a variety of racesand ethnicities and I was just
thinking to myself well, what isthat Right?
It's not necessarily race-baseddiscrimination.
(10:22):
It's just like you're being ajerk.
It's equal opportunity jerkism.
Right, no, absolutely.
So I've been seeing that a lot,where people don't necessarily
want to call it discriminationand they don't want to call it
bullying, but it is like ageneral lack of civility that's
affecting their workplaceexperience.
Nicola (10:43):
Did you get to the bottom of why this person does
this way?
Because that sounds almost likea neurodivergent scope.
Kia (10:51):
That's exactly what it was, that's what she claimed, and
then so that's actuallysomething I was going to get to.
So this is something I'm likefascinated by, Like my team and
I I want us to like, over thelast few years, like
trauma-informed interviewtechniques have become like
super popular, right, and Ithink that there's maybe a lane
(11:12):
that's opening for likeneurodivergent investigations
involving neurodivergent people.
So when I interviewed thisperson who interacted with
people in a way that peoplereally found to be objectionable
, she's like I'm neurodivergent.
She's like sometimes I don'tunderstand that what I'm saying
is going to be received bypeople in a certain way, and I
(11:34):
think that's fascinating becausethen what right and I'm not
trying to say she was usingneurodivergency as an excuse,
but I think it comes back to oneof those discussions is around
intent versus impact, Right?
So perhaps she did not intendto offend people or make them
feel bullied or threatened, butthat was the impact, and I just
(11:56):
wonder how organizations aregoing to really work their way
around that.
I think it's going to be reallydifficult.
Nicola (12:01):
It is going to be difficult.
We spoke to a neurodivergentand autism kind of specialist
who is autistic himself.
It was fascinating.
Kia (12:10):
Did he have any recommendations or tips, you
know, on neurodivergency and theworkplace and how to navigate
it?
Nicola (12:19):
So he provide guidance to businesses on how better to
equip the business with like aDNI strategy to deal with
neurodivergency as well.
Kia (12:28):
It's right, that's so good, that's really interesting.
Gina (12:33):
I guess my question here is did this particular person
disclose that she wasneurodivergent?
Kia (12:44):
She did to me during my interview with her.
Gina (12:47):
I'm sorry to the employer because I think one of the big
takeaways with Shea was that hewas like once you're part of a
group or a team.
Disclose it, because then it'sup to the employer to help you
make accommodation so you canwork in the best fashion, like
the best way possible.
Like how can we get this personwho's really good at XYZ to
(13:11):
continue to perform?
Nicola (13:13):
taking into account so the e-mails might be shit, right
.
Gina (13:16):
So this guy, shea, who we spoke to, he had like an
auditory thing, I think, right,like he could hear the humming
from certain types of lights andit was amplified for him.
Or he gave us an example and sosomebody just gave him like
noise canceling headphones, likethe office manager arranged for
(13:38):
the headphones, or removing thelight and putting a different
light.
So if I'm just wondering if itwould have gotten different for
this person if they had divulgedto them their employer?
I am neurodivergent, you know.
Maybe they didn't know Like Ican identify with this person.
I don't think I'mneurodivergent, but sometimes my
(13:58):
emails can come across very,very much Like, very like, like
it's.
Here's the information.
I'm not gonna fluff it Like,this is it, and it might rub
people the wrong way, but whenthey have a conversation with me
it's totally different.
So I'm wondering if maybe therewas, you know, lack of
understanding for the team,which is not their fault, cause
(14:20):
how are they gonna be told ifthey're not told they don't know
what they don't know?
Kia (14:23):
No, that's an excellent point, but I also see the other
side of it where a person maynot want to share that, like I.
Just I think that the difficultdecision to make.
Gina (14:35):
And he did talk about that too, Cause he was like I don't
always divulge during theinterview process, but after I'm
employed there, then I will.
Nicola (14:45):
Also, there's that element of psychological safety,
right, if you don't feel safein your workplace to be able to
disclose that you areneurodivergent or that you have
any other hidden disability orwhatever it is that you're
coming to work with, then maybethat's what needs to be assessed
, right, is that psychological?
Gina (15:03):
safety.
Maybe that's not a good company.
That's a good fit for thisperson who does have this sort
of unseen disability.
Nicola (15:10):
This is fast, I love.
We're also fascinated by this.
Now we're like obsessed.
Gina (15:14):
And we sound like we're experts.
Nicola (15:16):
We literally know shit about shit, we know shit.
Gina (15:19):
We have one really great conversation with this guy who
does know and now we're like, oh, we know all the stuff.
All right, we know it all.
Kia (15:27):
So I do think, though I do think what he spoke to us about
is directly related to theanecdote you just shared, so
yeah, yeah, I'm looking forwardto that introduction Because I
think where we're going is we'regoing to have to create a new
(15:47):
like I don't remember which oneof you said, but it's almost
like a D, e and I offering orlike a new consideration, and
there's gonna have to be a newframework totally built around
what it means to beneurodivergent in the workplace
expectations, disclosures, etcetera Cause so many people are
(16:07):
getting having the tools now toproudly identify themselves as
being neurodivergent andrecognizing the challenges that
that may present to them in theworkplace.
I just, I think it's like this,really new and uncharted
territory.
I think it's gonna be superinteresting.
Gina (16:23):
Agreed, Agreed Cause.
Now it's being talked about somuch more.
I think it was never reallytalked about, you know, as
widely as it is now Like anytimeI open Instagram, it's
somebody's like oh, I just foundout I had ADHD or I'm
neurodivergent, or you know.
Nicola (16:43):
So yeah, I definitely think it's what's happening for
the person with the shittyemails what, what, what was?
Gina (16:47):
the outcome.
What happened to her?
Yeah, she quit.
Nicola (16:51):
Oh.
Kia (16:53):
Yeah, yeah, she said it just seems like everybody hates
me and I've upset everyone somuch and I think it was just
best to file it.
I mean, I think it could havebeen handled differently, right?
So like, even if theinvestigation landed that we
found that she violated theorganization's policies around
being, you know, respectful andprofessional in the workplace,
(17:15):
that's something that can becoached and addressed.
I don't think it was necessaryfor her to quit.
Nobody, you know, pressured her.
That wasn't our recommendationthat she be fired.
She just said she just she'dhad enough.
Nicola (17:25):
So yeah, I'm curious to dig a little deeper now because
in our first chat that we had wespoke quite a bit about
microaggressions and how thoseare starting to reflect like in
the workplace now and how hardit is to kind of investigate
those right.
Kia (17:43):
Sure.
Nicola (17:43):
So I'd love to go into maybe some of the cases you've
had like not recently.
Obviously we're not going to gointo like peoples
investigations, but you knowsome of the cases that you've
had where you've gone.
Oh, wow this is actually reallycurly and really tricky to
unpack.
Kia (18:02):
Sure, sure, that's a great question.
Well, you and I said when wewere talking last time, we're
like, maybe it shouldn't even becalled a microaggression, like,
because that in and of itself,like minimizes the importance of
what's occurring.
And what I said to you and whatI'll say to you again is how
many microaggressions does ittake before it becomes toxic,
(18:24):
like, it becomes like amacroaggression or just like an
awful place to exist and be aperson from historically
marginalized groups.
So I want to think through this.
I am doing the work with a lotof organizations right now,
helping them figure out what aremicroaggressions, defining them
(18:47):
in a way that people understandthem, and what are we doing
when people repeatedly engage inthe microaggressions, right?
So I'm in the middle of aninvestigation right now and the
person who's made the complaintis a black woman and like, I
would say like a middlemanagement kind of position, and
she was just like the amount ofmicroaggressions that she's
(19:08):
been made to endure, it's justnon-stop.
Let me give you a few.
She just says you know peoplesay microaggressive comments to
her like very much in the tropeof like the angry black woman
stereotype.
So when I'm interviewing peopleabout their relationship with
her and their interactions withher.
(19:28):
They're like, yeah, she'saggressive, she talks too loud.
I feel like she's yelling at usin the meetings.
So they're repeating themicroaggressions back to me,
right.
So I'm like, well, this personis clearly not making this up,
talking over her in meetings,telling her openly in meetings
(19:48):
like I don't agree with that,that's not the way we do it,
that's not it.
And then someone actually toldher recently that she should
really lead, she should beginmeetings with new people by
talking about herself, herbackground and her restimate,
and that way people wouldrespect her as the leader of a
meeting.
And okay, so put all of thosetogether like roll it up in a
(20:13):
ball.
Nicola (20:14):
And then we've got our gaggle.
Did we go with a gaggle ofmicroaggressions?
Kia (20:18):
Like I can not turn to this person and say it's just
microaggressions, like theorganization and I are now
working together saying how dowe address this?
Because all of these thingscumulatively is like a lot for
someone to handle and a lot todeal with.
And she wants to quit and Idon't blame her, so I get it.
(20:39):
That's terrible.
Gina (20:40):
So why do they think they can say that to someone Like?
What do they think?
Why do they think they can saythat to someone?
And then, what do you do whensomebody like, what do you do?
If somebody is actually has avery loud talking voice and it's
maybe not always appropriate,like they sit near you and
(21:01):
they're on the phone, orwhatever, how do you then say
like, hey, I'm so sorry, butlike you might not realize how
loud you are, or whatever, canyou just?
Like inside voice please.
Nicola (21:11):
Which is what I tell my daughter.
But oh my God, I said that tomy son in the car.
Gina (21:14):
I'm like we're inside car voice.
So it's like, how then do youbecause again back to your point
, keeley, people are stupid,people are humans, they're gonna
fuck up, they're gonna mess uphow do you get your point across
in a way that isn't considereda microaggression?
Kia (21:30):
Right.
So the first thing is, why didthey think that they could do
that?
Because this particularorganization, and where's
geographically located, is witha lot of people that have very
little experience with beingaround people of color at all,
much less working with them andvery much so not being
supervised by them.
So, and the one thing I willsay is like there are different
(21:54):
organizations that have moresophisticated employees when it
comes to these matters.
So there's some organizationslike do you think about like a
big corporate company in NewYork, to be told and I was told
that you did this, oh no, Ididn't mean that these people,
just very straight faced, werelike yes, that's that to her.
Like they're not even educatedin like the space to understand,
(22:15):
like why these things would beoffensive.
I don't know Just the way thatthe black woman interpreted
people saying we feel likeyou're yelling at us, it's like
it's because I'm black and I'mleading a meeting and you're
very uncomfortable with the ideaof being led by a black person.
I think if it had been thatalone, people say I talked well
(22:37):
during meetings, we wouldn't bewhere we are.
But it's just all of thosethings together, it's just it's
been very difficult for her.
Gina (22:46):
So what is the point of having, like I understand that
you're investigating, but thenwhat?
What is the outcome of theinvestigation?
Kia (22:54):
Is it?
Gina (22:54):
do you make recommendations to the company?
Do you like, and how does thatwork in terms of legality, like
do you sometimes have suggestthe individual to sue the
company?
What do you do with all thatinformation after you've
gathered it through theinvestigation?
Kia (23:10):
So at the conclusion of the investigation I do was called a
final investigative report andthat walks through introduction,
the scope of methodology thatwas used for the investigation,
the standard of evidence thatwas used, the preponderance of
the evidence, was it more likelythan not that the allegations
occurred?
And then the investigationreport does end with findings,
(23:31):
conclusions and recommendationsfor the path forward.
So might be.
You know that this personthere's a very wide range of
course of corrective actionswhen an investigation lands with
this person probably engaged inthe misconduct.
So that could be mandatorytraining, that could be
sensitivity training, that couldbe microaggression training,
that could be suspension, thatcould be termination.
(23:53):
It's just a really wide rangeof corrective action.
And then I hand that to theorganization when they decide
how they'd like to handle it.
Nicola (24:03):
You know I feel like that's something in New Zealand
that we're really just a littlebit far behind on is kind of
that microaggression awarenessand that microaggression
knowledge.
I want to say and it'ssomething that I'm surprised
that we haven't addressedgenerally is that concept of
(24:25):
microaggressions or how thosecould manifest or what those
actually look like for peoplethat are living them right?
What would you recommend as youknow for like a starting point
for people to kind of startunpicking what it could look
like in their workplace.
Kia (24:47):
Right, right.
So I think every workplace isdifferent based on the
demographics, but I think peoplecan.
They can do a Google search ofmicroaggressions and look at
examples.
I think that is very importantfor organizations and senior
management to really have thatdiscussion with employees and
identifying it by name.
This is a microaggression.
(25:07):
Here are examples of it.
We have an anti microaggressionpolicy.
If you are found to haveengaged in microaggressions, you
know this is the range ofcorrective actions that you
could be subjected to.
This was interesting about thatmicroaggression piece because
this is such like a new andfresh and emerging area is that
(25:31):
there is an organization thatI'm not going to name, but it's
a very, very, very large companyin New York City, based in
Manhattan, and they have justmade a decision that if you are
accused of engaging in threemicroaggressive acts that's
based on, like you know, race,ethnicity, gender, sexuality,
(25:55):
that automatically triggers anoutside investigator coming in
and doing the investigationautomatically.
Gina (26:02):
How do those?
Nicola (26:02):
get like logged.
Gina (26:04):
I was just going to say how does it get reported and how
is it proven?
Like I feel like it's going tobe so difficult.
You have a great example wherethe people don't even know how
to like cover their own asseswith this one woman, wherever
you were originally describingthe microaggressions, but, like
you know, if it's in New YorkCity, most people are savvy
(26:25):
enough to at least be like oh myGod, I had no idea.
Even said like they might do alittle CYA right Whether and I
think it might be harder toprove when there's more savvy
people involved.
So let's hear about that.
Kia (26:39):
My experience at the human resources business partners
within this particularorganization.
They are really excellentrecord keepers, right.
So it's like you know.
First I heard that Gina, mayyou know, misgender someone.
Then I heard that Gina made anasty crack about Pride Week.
Then I heard that Gina made anasty crack about Black Lives
(27:00):
Matter, right.
So you're just you'redocumenting this and really
trying to have like a system inplace where you're like that's
three.
This is just an example.
I'm not like that.
I appreciate thisorganization's stance that
they're taking, because they'rerealizing like it can't just be
that HR is like eh, you know,these are interpersonal issues,
(27:23):
because at a certain point itgets way beyond being
interpersonal issues and it'slike I don't want to be here.
Yeah, I don't want to be here.
So you know they're trying topay attention to it.
I'm very interested in seeinghow long they keep this going
and if they're seeing results,right.
Nicola (27:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Because, like you know again
what are the outcomes.
So you've got this new policyin place of three strikes and
you're out essentially.
So you know what's the outcomeof this.
Do we have people that are nowfearful or, oh, you know,
something I might say ismisconstrued?
As a microaggression or am Ijust being a blatant asshole at
(28:06):
work Right?
Kia (28:10):
Sure, I think that people could definitely be fearful, but
I also do understand thelong-term implications of what
occurs when people just keepsaying offensive things whether
you want to call themmicroaggressions or not, it just
it has a really, really likejust a really negative effect on
the workplace overall.
Nicola (28:31):
Yeah.
Gina (28:32):
So.
But I feel like, with all theserules right, like how does that
create a psychologically safethat's what you're saying,
nicola, like the fear.
How does it create apsychologically safe work
environment where you know ifsomebody did say something and
you want to report it, or if yousaid something and you truly
(28:54):
didn't mean it.
That way, like I misgenderedsomebody once and it was a
complete accident, like I calledAhia Shi or vice versa, I don't
remember.
It was just like I wasn'tthinking clearly.
I was like getting to my pointand it just accidentally came
out.
Like I don't know I would, Iwould be terrified of doing one
thing wrong in a situation likethat.
Kia (29:16):
Right.
I think people have to beterrified of doing one thing
wrong.
I just I just think that'swhere we are right now and I
don't know if that's the rightanswer, but I think that what's
what happened to my light.
I just think that and I meanand I want to make this clear
when there are instances wherein this organization where
(29:37):
they're saying you know, if youare alleged to have engaged in
like three micro aggressivecomments, et cetera, that
automatically triggers anoutside investigation, that does
not mean that person's going tobe terminated.
It just means that we're goingto get a fresh set of eyes on
this and maybe you neededucation and training.
Regarding the micro aggressivestatements and why what you said
(29:57):
was problematic, theorganization that particular
organization, I think isapproaching it for much more of
a learning and growing angle asopposed to being super punitive
for people making mistakes which.
Nicola (30:14):
I think is the right.
Kia (30:14):
I think that's the right way to handle it.
Nicola (30:17):
Yeah Now, because I know I know a number of lovely
people and I know that thequestion is going to be like you
know, yeah, but what's thepoint?
Right, what's the point?
Because, you know,microaggressions are really just
imagined.
(30:39):
You know there's a whole systemof thinking where actually
microaggressions aren't really athing.
So what do we say to thesepeople?
What are we saying to you know,aunt Agnes, who has got no
concept?
What are we saying to thepeople that are not aware of the
problematic nature that comeswith microaggressions?
(31:00):
Because I think there'sprobably going to be some of our
listeners that are like there'sno such thing.
Come now, stop there, stop thatcrap, Right.
Kia (31:09):
What's the big deal?
I mean, I think there are somepeople who are just generally
resistant to it as a concept,but what I always try to explain
to people is it's death by athousand paper cuts, right?
So standing alone, maybe it's,you know, not earth shaking, but
just being subjected to thatagain and again, and again.
(31:31):
And one example that I givepeople is imagine something
you're insecure about the waythat you look, the way that you
dress your financial situation,whatever, whatever and someone
just keeps on making weirdcomments about it.
Number one first time, yeah,maybe let it roll off your back,
but after a certain amount oftime, this is something that is
(31:55):
a core part of your identity andwho you are.
Can you agree that at a certainpoint, you would start to feel
angry, hurt, disrespected andmarginalized?
And when I say that to people,they do start to get it.
Nicola (32:08):
Yeah, that's actually a really good example because that
gives you like that youpersonalize it for people, right
, Because I think that's the bigthing is people don't get that.
There is an end.
Gina (32:21):
It's a hard thing to be empathetic about, unless you're
thinking about it, how it mightpersonally affect you, right?
Because it's like you don'treally, especially if you're not
, like, very self-aware, youknow.
So.
I don't think many people areself-aware.
I think it's rare that you havehigh functioning, high good
(32:41):
employees that are alsocompletely self-aware.
Like I think it's a very rarecombination, but yeah, I mean.
Nicola (32:53):
It's such a fascinating topic.
I think that you know, and thenagain I'm guessing you can
combine the two together.
Now you've got microaggressions, you've also got
neurodivergency as well, andyou're combining those two
together for, like a perfectstorm of you know situations in
the workplace that would lenditself to being very toxic, and
(33:16):
you've got people around youthat are just going like what is
happening.
Kia (33:21):
Right, and I think that a lot of organizations have been
put on notice.
I was watching the news this isyears ago.
This is not my face, I did notcome up with it, but I stole it
and I like to use it all thetime Just talking about, like
social media and cancel culture,and the person on the news was
saying that what we've seen overthe last few years has been the
democratization of themicrophone, right?
(33:43):
So it's not.
You don't have to go file alawsuit, you don't have to go
get a PR person to get a messageout there.
You can just send out a tweetor you could post something on
LinkedIn, right?
And I think a lot oforganizations that have recently
gotten pressed bad pressedabout being organizations that
are toxic or harmful for blackpeople or queer people, etc.
(34:08):
It's usually because of a bunchof microaggressions.
So you now have 20 people thatidentify as being queer and they
each have five microaggressionseach.
They feel like they've endured.
You put that together and nowit's a New York Times article,
right, about how this is areally difficult, you know,
place for a certain group ofpeople, and that's why, you know
(34:30):
, when we do like themicroaggression math, you have
to be really careful with howyou're quantifying it and how
you're quantifying things andhow you're counting things.
Nicola (34:44):
So I feel like and this is maybe the incorrect thing,
right but I feel like withsexual you know, sexual
inappropriateness, because thatcould be very many things, right
I feel like that's more likecut and dry You've got a really
clear indication that oh yeahyou get.
you gave me the heebie-jeebies,you touched my boob, like
(35:06):
whatever it is.
I feel like you've got a reallyclear indication that this is
not the right thing to do,whereas now you've kind of got
this really like, I want to say,almost grey area of information
, where you've really got todeep dive and really kind of get
(35:26):
into the workplace's culture tounderstand exactly what's
coming out of it more.
How do you approach that?
Like when you go into anorganization, like what are some
of the first questions you'reasking to kind of get that
culture pulse check?
Kia (35:45):
Right.
So I generally like to startwith the person who hired us, so
that could be their generalcounsel, their head of human
resources, their head of theemployee experience, just like
how would you describe theculture of this place?
People are usually prettytransparent about that.
Like, eh, people don't reallylike it here.
We have a really high turnover.
We have a problem withrecruiting this particular type
(36:06):
of historically marginalizedgroup of employees to come here.
We have a problem with peopleleaving.
You know, and one of the thingsI always say is, like, do you
know what your trending issuesare right now?
Like, is it racially basedmicroaggressions?
Is it misgendering?
Is it sexual harassment?
And I feel like once I havekind of put my arms around that,
(36:26):
then I'm in a better positionfor understanding the culture of
the organization, to addresswhat's going on in a way that'll
be helpful.
Nicola (36:36):
And what are some of the questions you end up asking the
employees?
Do they kind of know you'recoming?
Are they prepared for that?
You know how can someoneprepare for you coming in to
question them?
Kia (36:49):
Sure.
So there's some language that Isend to whoever the person is.
That's going to make theintroduction between myself and
witnesses and it talks throughwho I am, what we'll be
discussing and I you know.
If you have anything that youthink would be helpful for me to
see ie emails, text messages,screenshots, etc.
If you could have that readyfor our meeting, that would be
great.
(37:09):
And in terms of preparation,you know, I always say that it's
very rare that I speak tosomeone once.
Right, I'll speak to.
I have an interview withsomeone once and let's say, oh
my God, I forgot to mention thisand then we'll get on another
call, because we're human andthat's just the way our brains
work.
But I always want to givepeople as much opportunity as
(37:29):
they want and need to reallywalk through what their
experience has been and so thatwe can approach it in a
substantive way.
Gina (37:39):
Because I think, like, especially with talking about
microaggressions like versus,you know something that might be
a little more cut and dry, likewhat Nicola said sexual
inappropriateness.
How does it, how do you stop itfrom becoming a?
He said?
She said, because I just likein my head it just feels like
somebody's going to be like well, you said blah, blah, blah and
(38:00):
X me.
Nicola (38:01):
You said I was too loud in the meeting.
Okay, well, you were too loudin the meeting.
Gina (38:07):
Or just like oh no, I didn't say that, I insinuated it
like, or you know, like.
I just feel like it can be somuddy like, and so hard to kind
of pull out the truth, becauseyou know, everyone has their own
idea of the truth or how theyexperienced the situation, and
it's like you have to come andkind of find the middle ground
(38:29):
which is the actual truth.
So how do you do that with andlike, how does that work?
Like I wouldn't I?
The whole idea overwhelms me inmy mind.
I'm like oh my God, I wouldn'tknow what said be like
everyone's talking at me,they're using too many words.
Please let me look like yeah,how do you?
Kia (38:46):
What exactly like?
What's the approach for whatpiece of it?
Gina (38:51):
Well, like when you're gathering, he said that he
should, she should, and fromgetting like being bogged down
and so and so said this, and soand so said this.
And how do you kind of arriveon your truth?
Kia (39:09):
So right, and just by nature of a lot of these
investigations, a lot of themare, he said, she said
situations.
That's just the way it is.
You know, this person did notmake this offensive comment in
front of the whole team, theyjust said it specifically to you
, right?
So when it lands that way, youknow I'll try to, I'll try to
(39:30):
speak to the person that madethe complaint right when I'm
like you know what this is atough one.
I'm not saying you madesomething up or you were being
overly sensitive, but don'treally know where to land with
this one.
I'll say, ideally, what wouldyou like to have in here?
And I found that to be a super,super helpful question because
I might will just say I justdon't want them to do it again
(39:51):
and I can go to the person andsay, listen, this is what you
said, this is how it wasinterpreted and received, this
is the impact it had upon thisperson.
In the future, maybe we shouldtry to fill in the blank, right?
And I think that that sometimesthat's the best.
It's going to be right, likeit's not always going to be.
Oh my God, I cracked the case.
(40:12):
I know what happened here.
It's not always going to belike here comes the hammer and
you're getting fired and walkedout by like security right, like
there's a lot of shame.
Gina (40:22):
Sure, because I'm like.
I'm like, oh my God, what ifyou went into someplace and
found like a whole likeembezzling scheme that was big.
You know, like this is like thestuff like TV makes you think
right, like go live, and allthese things.
It's like you go into, likesettle a little thing, and then
it's like there's a big thingbehind it.
So I'm waiting to hear thatstory, which you may not have
yet, but you know, yeah, it wason.
(40:48):
Amazon Prime is about a lawyerwho, like took a small case and
then it turned into this bigthing.
So, as he was investigating it,it like turned into like a
whole like thing there was.
Like you know, good, I like itvery good, it's very good look,
there's no more season for a newshow.
Nicola (41:06):
Yeah, the lie in the consultant.
Have you done the consultantyet?
Kia (41:09):
Yes, and I really, really liked it.
We're obsessed with it.
Gina (41:16):
I didn't like the issue too.
He's gold, he's just a man madeof gold.
He's a non entity, he's justlike a machine.
Anyway, we digress.
Try Goliath, we digress.
Nicola (41:34):
Circling back.
So okay, so coming in.
Gina (41:40):
So many of those crazy investigations where it turned
into be something way like youwere like, oh shit, that was
just like the tip of iceberg.
If you have to think about it,the answer is no, because you
would know.
Yeah no, I don't think so it'sso big that you would be like
yup.
Kia (41:58):
I don't feel like I've had a ton of investigation where,
like the scope becomes like huge, I'm like, oh my goodness, like
it usually stays prettyconfined, no scope creep.
But I will say this is once Ienter the picture, people are
usually extremely excited tospeak with me.
Usually they just are.
Gina (42:22):
Do they just want to spill the tea, Are they like?
Let me tell you what John Smithdid to me one day.
Nicola (42:28):
Oh my God, Shannon.
In accounting the worst.
Kia (42:31):
They almost turned into like therapy sessions and I just
have to sit there.
I'm like, well, that's some,you know.
It's like, well, I don't knowanything about what John said to
Sue, but I do know when I wason maternity leave, they kept
emailing me and they wouldn'tgive me a break, you know.
So you just have to let peoplespeak about their experiences,
and which is also good, becauseat the conclusion of the
(42:52):
investigation, I'm able to goback to a client and say I know
we were investigating thisspecific allegation, but I want
to make up where other concernsthat people have brought up
during my conversations withthem.
Gina (43:05):
No, and don't you think that kind of gives you an uh
like a sort of brief snapshot ofthe company culture, when
you're hearing all like, whenyou start hearing extraneous
things, but they're all sort ofstarting to line up?
Kia (43:18):
Yes, I think that's exactly right.
I think with the work that I do, sometimes it becomes very
clear to me that I have thecomplete buy-in of the
leadership and you know they arereally taking this seriously
and sometimes it's like youaren't taking this seriously at
all.
You know, like it's a riskmanagement move.
(43:38):
There was an investigation thatfinished recently and it was a
man that was accused of sexuallyharassing his female coworker.
So I completed theinvestigation.
This I feel very confident thatthis happened.
Like this man sexually harassedher at a company event.
Her face falls like the wholetable is looking like it was
(43:58):
very obvious that you know hesaid something right.
So I complete the investigation.
I found that he did, you know,engage in this conduct and he
violated your company's code ofconduct regarding sexual
harassment.
Like he's going to have toattend a training.
I have a good friend who doesthat type of training.
He's like got it, got it.
I'm like, okay, now this is theCEO of the organization.
(44:20):
He was like thank you so much.
Okay, so let's set up a callbetween you, him and myself and
we'll talk through your findings.
I'm like let's do it.
I mean, we do that all the time.
We got on that call, the CEOlike threw me under the bus
Weird way.
He's like I don't see anythinghere.
I'm like we just spoke aboutthis yesterday Like you could
(44:40):
not be serious.
So in organizations like that,you know, the CEO was like we're
on the world of college, wherehe's on board, we're on board.
He's like I got it, I got it, Igot it.
And then we got on the callwith the person who engaged in
this sexual harassment andyou're like minimizing it and
like questioning theinvestigation and I was like
what was the point of thisexercise?
Gina (45:02):
You know what I mean.
Like, why did he do that 180?
That's so weird.
Kia (45:08):
Because this particular organization, a lot of their
money, is based on sales andhe's one of their best salesman
and I think once he got intothat meeting, he started to
think I don't love that he didthis, but at the same time I
don't want to ostracize him andmake him leave.
I think that's exactly whathappened.
Gina (45:27):
But couldn't he just say that?
But, like, I do think you didthis, it was, like you know, a
small blip on your radar Like,obviously this is inappropriate.
We're going to send you fortraining, we're here to.
You know, like couldn't he haveannounced like or just like
discussed it in a way that wasnurturing rather than minimizing
?
Kia (45:44):
like you know, we're not going to point you very much,
chose not to and it definitelyfelt like a good old boys moment
, you know, like a nonsense, andit's like you know what.
You did not have to hire me forthis.
Gina (45:59):
You could have just ignored it.
You get paid.
At the end of the day, you getpaid.
Who fucking cares?
I'd like get that money.
Kia (46:09):
That was pretty rare.
Most people don't get.
Gina (46:12):
Yeah, like, does that?
Does it feel demoralizing whenthat happens?
Are you just like, whatever Idid what I was hired to do, I
did a good job and now it's outof my hands.
Like, how do you, how do youfeel?
And again, you said it was rare, so you know.
Kia (46:29):
I don't say it was demoralizing, but it was
shocking, like because the CEOseemed like a guy and I think
usually when people hire me it'sbecause you're taking this
seriously, Like if you'reinvolved in cover ups and like
you know, sticking your head inthe sand, you're not hiring us,
like you're just not so for youknow for us to have been hired
(46:50):
and then for them to have forhim to have taken that position
on the call with him.
It just was confusing.
But I think I've just realizedthat you know it's one of those
organizations that is veryconcerned about bottom line and
profitability and he's one oftheir best salesman and the
takeaway that I got from thatconversation was that you know
profitability and margins inthat organization are more
(47:13):
important than workplace culture.
Gina (47:15):
That was the takeaway which is probably detrimental to
the company as a whole, versusjust like just approaching this
one good sales person and thensay like we value you, we don't
want to lose you, we do need tosend you for this training.
Let's figure out a way you knowcollectively to make you better
and more comfortable here, LikeI do believe it was a one off,
(47:37):
like you could have even thrownthe guy a bone, like you were
probably drunk, right, wouldn'thave done this normally.
Whatever you could have givenhim a bone, but still gotten the
point across and done it in away that maybe makes him even
feel valued as an employee there.
Kia (47:54):
Very confidently that this person is going to do this again
.
Gina (47:59):
Just, I heard too many things.
But I mean you know better thanme, so like, but you know, I
mean he probably will yeah andhe had a thing with the young
sales women always being aroundand he wanted to mentor them.
It was just like a lot ofthings that put my radar out.
Nicola (48:17):
Yeah, yeah, this was one off, so yeah, you know, we're
kind of coming into the sillyseason, right, what we call the
silly season, which is a greatopportunity for us to have
Christmas parties and get drunkand do inappropriate things for
no particular reason.
Because, you know, just becausewe're wearing I heard at a
(48:39):
conference the other day justbecause we're wearing the hot
hot dog suit doesn't mean westop being.
You know, joe from HR.
What are the things that peoplecan do to avoid that happening
at their functions or work?
Things that are coming up Don'tdrink, you can't.
Kia (49:04):
You're like you can only be responsible for yourself, right
?
And this, this person who madeit sexually inappropriate remark
to this to his female employee.
He said to her Do you know whyyou're the number one
salesperson in your region?
And she's like because I workreally hard.
He's like no, it's becauseyou're f and hot.
You know just so.
(49:25):
So in that particular situationthere's not anything that this
woman could have done to stophim saying that with me that I'm
like, that's not even that bad,I've had worse.
Oh my well, she, she, she.
But when I spoke to her she waslike it's two things.
First of all, I thought it wasinappropriate.
She's like.
Second of all, we're like youknow, like one of those big
(49:45):
rounded table.
She's like I had a visiblereaction because I was upset and
embarrassed and everyone'sturning and looking at me like
what's going on over there, andshe was like a number three.
I work extremely hard.
She was like so it was, youknow, offensive to me for all of
those different.
Gina (50:01):
I'm not saying that it's not.
I'm just saying what the fuckis wrong with me, that I'm like
comparison everything else I'vebeen through and like my, my
like whatever 20 plus career ofbeing, like you know, working.
Kia (50:13):
I've had worse said to me as well, which is also why, when
the organization hired me to dothe investigation and then kind
of like this 180 at the end, Iwas like huh, that's interesting
.
Gina (50:25):
Yeah, I mean, granted, all those things that happens to me
were like in the early 2000s,like I don't.
I think we've come a long wayin corporate culture in America
in terms of what is appropriateand what's not.
Kia (50:38):
Takeaways.
So one thing that I always tellpeople and this is whether it's
related to microaggression,sexual harassment, bullying,
just anything that is makingyour workplace experience
negative.
Document it right, I thinksometimes people think what it
looks like to assert yourself orreally properly document was
(51:02):
happening.
You right, you don't need to goget a lawyer, that you don't
need to pay a retainer, youdon't need to go get like a
secret recording device.
You know, you can just use anote section of your app and you
know this date, this time.
This person said this.
We were here.
It may be this date, this time.
This person made me feel thisway and you know, ultimately,
(51:24):
whether a person decides to goto human resources, or they
decide to file a lawsuit, orthey decide to get a lawyer to
help negotiate their exit, it'shelpful in every single instance
.
So that's my one that I alwaysgive everybody.
If you are being subjected tothings that you don't like and
don't feel good within theworkplace and you know really
(51:44):
bearing on the edge ofmisconduct, just keep a really
good record of it while you'regoing through the decision
process of deciding how you wantto handle things.
Nicola (51:53):
What are some of the things that people can keep a
track of like other than youknow noting down?
You know interactions.
Or, let's say, in the case ofmicroaggressions, you know,
noting down what themicroaggression was, for example
, yeah, you know so and somisgendered me today on purpose.
You know whatever it was.
(52:13):
What other things can peoplekeep evidence of?
Kia (52:20):
Um, so I would just say that my general rule of thumb is
, like we all know, when thingsdon't feel good, right.
Like when somebody makes acomment and you can't
necessarily define it or maybeput a name on it, but you're
like you know the young kids saylike it gives you the X right.
Like somebody just sayssomething that you don't like,
just just just put it down, evenif you never do anything with
(52:42):
it.
If you're at the job foranother six months and then you
leave for your dream job, it'sjust good to have, because you
don't know at what point thingsare going to change, essentially
gonna say, oh my goodness, I'vegot to negotiate my way out of
here, and now you're trying topiece together these previous
experiences that you had.
It's really good to have itdown on paper in one centralized
location, or not on paper, butlike in your phone okay and okay
(53:07):
.
Nicola (53:07):
so what are some other ways, like Businesses, for
example, what are some ways thatbusinesses can prepare or like
almost get ready for if you wereto come in and Investigate them
, what is the best way forbusinesses to prepare in that
instance?
Kia (53:24):
Now I would say that a lot of organizations really need to
be thoughtful about when do theythink it's time to pull an
independent investigator right.
But I think that lies within alot of organizations being very
brutally honest with themselvesabout the capabilities and
experience level of their humanresources function.
You know there's a lot ofworking in Jason's.
(53:45):
They just said we love our HRpeople, they're the best.
They don't know how to do thistype of work, so we have to get
you and your firm to come in.
So I think that there are a lotof organizations who realize
that and I think that's thefirst thing, like organizations
being honest with themselvesabout what is the capacity in
bandwidth of our human resourcesteam?
Do we feel like they areequipped and Educated and
(54:07):
knowledgeable enough to handlean investigation into really
sensitive allegations ofmisconduct related to race,
ethnicity, gender, sexuality,etc.
And then organizations reallyhave to do the work of Creating
you know what theirnon-negotiables are right.
So like really that's not justsexual harassment anymore.
(54:27):
You know, like I said earliertalking about civility, that's
become like a really hot topiclately and a lot of
organizations that I've beendoing work with him.
Nicola (54:36):
Just people speak to each other rudely and sin rude
emails, you would assume thatcivility is just kind of a given
.
Kia (54:43):
It's not.
I Did an investigation recentlyand I shouldn't laugh because
it's not funny, but it was likethis person like checked the
wrong box.
You remember like we used whenyou would get paychecks at work
and you could do like taxelections, like there's a
certain amount of taxes come outof the paper and she like
checked the wrong thing and gota paycheck for like three
(55:07):
dollars or something becauseshe's like check the wrong boxes
.
Gina (55:13):
I feel like, yeah, I feel like I've done something like
that.
I've been like I thought I washelping myself, but I like the
language is so sort of murkythat you're like doing the exact
opposite.
Yeah, I so she's going nuts.
Kia (55:27):
So she's reaching out to the human resources business
partner I want my money, I wantmy money.
How do you think it would beokay to pay you three?
Pay me three dollars.
And the woman's like you checkthe boxes, like this is how we
got here.
So she's like I want my money,I want my money.
And to the point that the humanresources person now reaches
(55:48):
out to me and was like I needyou to do an investigation Into
her, against me.
She's bullying and triggeringme at this point for a mistake
that she made.
Yeah, so when I reach out to thewho went nuts about the
paycheck.
I'm like let's just let's setsome time on the calendar.
I just want to talk about whathappened.
This person was really upsetabout the interactions that they
had with you and the way youbehaved about the paycheck, and
(56:09):
this person called me stupid.
She was like this is stupid,you're ridiculous, you're a joke
to me.
Gina (56:16):
You're like I'm just, I'm just a third party man.
I don't have any skin in thegame.
Kia (56:20):
We alone, which I actually found to be interesting.
That is a very extreme example.
Most people when I come aroundare like on their best behavior,
this person not so much.
So the way she was, you know,really coming after the HR
business partner, calling themall hours of the night.
It's 11 o'clock, where's mymoney?
(56:41):
I mean, what are we callingthat?
Bullying, harassment andcivility?
I think organizations reallyhave to be thoughtful about how
they're defining certain typesof misconduct and then creating
a really concrete set ofcorrective actions for the
misconduct when it's when it'sfound that it has occurred.
Gina (57:00):
Yeah, so what ended up happening with that one
particular thing?
I'm curious.
Kia (57:05):
Well, bonnie, you should mention that, because my
recommendation was for thisperson to be terminated, right,
because this person that hadmultiple blow-ups of people and
just seemed just really unstableand just it just didn't seem
good and I was worried aboutthis, you know, continuing to be
a recurring issue within theorganization.
That particular organization Iwas called in after a really,
(57:31):
really really high profilepublication wrote a scathing
article about the workplaceculture and Senior leadership
was too scared to fire thisperson because they thought that
this person was going to goback to the press and say some
more bad things.
So she remains at thatorganization to this day.
Gina (57:49):
Did she ever get the whole pay thing figured out?
Yes, like that, like I don'tunderstand how, like, got to
that level like I would justlike oh shit, I marked the wrong
box.
How can we figure this out so Ican Unmark on market and just
pay me what I should have beenpaid like?
How well, how does it get tolike such a crazy level like
(58:09):
that?
I don't have an answer.
I know that I got and it may.
Kia (58:16):
it cracked me up, no pun intended.
I was like I'm a joke, youcheck the wrong thing you stupid
bitch who can't read today, whocan't?
Nicola (58:27):
read.
You can't read.
You know what I like to do,that I'm like you're probably
right, but the issue at handhere, like just agree with them.
Gina (58:34):
Let him.
Let him go on with the bill.
Okay, I'm a joke and you markthe wrong box.
Kia (58:44):
Yeah.
Nicola (58:48):
I'm here because of you, but I'm a joke.
Okay, yeah, please tell all ofour.
Gina (58:50):
Our followers.
If anyone's still listening tous at this point in the game,
anyone's still with us at theend of this episode.
I'm amazed.
Anyone who has made it this farin all of our podcast for all
of creation.
Nicola (59:04):
Ever Tell us where we can find you, kia, and we'll
link everything for our enough.
Gina (59:11):
My firm's website is wwwcom.
I'm here because of you, butI'm a joke, Okay, yeah please
tell all of our, our friends.
Kia (59:21):
Wwwtriangle investigations with an scom and you can find me
on LinkedIn Kia, kia last night, roberts, this has been a lot
of fun.
Gina (59:30):
Oh good, I'm so glad.
Thank you about Goliath.
It's on my list.
Kia (59:36):
All right, new friends, y'all are fun.
Let me know when it goes, wewill do Okay.
Thank you for having me resttoday.
Thank you, you too.
Bye.
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