S2E16: Understanding Groupthink: MLMs, Cults, and Toxic Workplaces with Felicia

Ever wondered how multi-level marketing organizations manage to lure individuals into their webs of manipulation and false promises of financial freedom? Get ready to decode these toxic work environments with Felicia, an experienced industrial organization psychologist and the founder and fractional CPO at CPO Playbook. We unmask the tactics MLMs use to entice and manipulate people, highlighting the financial burdens placed on distributors, and how the structures of MLMs differ from traditional organizations.

We extend our conversation beyond MLMs, venturing into the territories of cult-like organizations. Revel in the striking similarities between MLMs and cults, and learn about the charismatic leaders who skillfully exploit and manipulate individuals. We dissect the prevalence of groupthink in these settings, discuss the potential dangers of toxic positivity, and expose the subtle yet potent recruitment and retention strategies employed. 

As we traverse this complex terrain, we also touch on the significance of work-life balance and the potential for women to ascend as cult l

Welcome to Season 2, where we embark on authentic and unfiltered conversations about life, relationships, society, and more. Our opinions are solely our own and don't represent professional advice. It's just our perspective, so form your conclusions. Heads up, this podcast may contain adult content and explicit language. Let's dive in!
 
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Episode Transcript

Felicia (00:00):
Yeah, all right.

Gina (00:02):
So, Felicia, you're going to talk to us about so many cool
things.
Yes, tell us a little bit aboutwho you are, where you're
coming from and anything youwant our listeners to know about
you.

Felicia (00:17):
Sure, so I am the founder and fractional CPO at
CPO Playbook.
We are a strategic leadershipand HR consultancy and we also
have a podcast that we recentlylaunched, so that's very
exciting.
I have a master's in industrialorganizational psychology and

(00:39):
basically what that is.
It's the psychology of theworkplace, and so a lot of the
work that I do really has to dowith people and how to make them
successful and how to maketeams successful, and a lot of
it is also what not to do andhow that could impede on culture

(01:03):
and so yeah, so then we'retalking about MLMs today, which
is a good segue.
Is it a segue of what not to do?

Gina (01:15):
Yeah, of what not to do.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's agood segue.

Felicia (01:19):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's really interesting because
MLMs, they do a lot of similarthings that we, as like HR and
leadership coaches, if you willtell leaders to do in the sense
of, hey, this is how we engagepeople, Because I think MLMs,
for example, they're very goodat this and we tell or we create

(01:42):
programs of how do we getpeople engaged.
But I think the majordifference with an MLM is that
the type of work that they do iscorrosive to someone's
self-confidence, their financialwell-being.
They do all of those thingsthat a normal organization would

(02:06):
do, but they do it in a waythat causes moral dilemmas and
harm to people.
So there's some differences butwe can get into that whenever.

Gina (02:18):
Okay.
So yeah, can you give usexamples of what you just meant,
because a lot of the timespeople look like we had someone
come on here about who's like acommunication coach and they're
saying a lot of the things thatwe tell are like our students
for lack of a better word arethe same things that, when put

(02:40):
in the hands of a toxic person,can be used to be manipulative.
So it's like it's such a subtle, subtle, slight difference.
So, and I can't remember, didLauren give us an example?
I think she did, but I wouldlike to hear the example in
regards to, specifically, mlms,which are a little culty.

(03:01):
So can you give us an example?

Felicia (03:06):
Yeah, I mean there's so many, but I think first and
foremost there's the structureof an MLM.
So in normal healthyorganizations people are mostly
employees or they're contractingfor, like specific type of work

(03:29):
and specialties or consultingthings like that.
In an MLM, you're not anemployee, you're a contractor.
You're actually most somepeople will sell it out their
own LLC.
They're a distributor, and sowhat that really means is that

(03:51):
technically, the relationship isvery different.
So if I am someone that's adistributor, I set up my own LLC
and I become a distributor ofan MLMs product, then I am also
the product of the product,where I'm a buyer of the product

(04:12):
that they're selling.
So I'm actually not just aseller, I'm also a buyer, and
then all of that financialresponsibility is actually on my
own.
So I either can make money or Ican severely fail in my
environment of selling thatproduct.

(04:34):
And so I think that from anorganization that's like an MLM,
they're touting hey, this is sogreat, this is amazing, the
product's amazing, but we're notgoing to have any financial
responsibility on what you sellor what you don't sell.
We're just gonna help you buymore product and then it's up to

(04:57):
you to sell it, and so thatkind of relationship is really,
really different and I thinksometimes people can get caught
up because here's thisorganization and they're hyping
them up and they're singingpositivity and financial freedom
and that becomes really toxicbecause, number one if anybody

(05:17):
is promising financial freedom,that's a huge red flag,
especially when they have nocontrol over what you sell and
what you don't sell.
So that in itself is, I think,just one example of that I would
share.
That is a really big red flagand you should be thinking about
what that means when you'rehearing the promises of

(05:40):
financial freedom and this isthe gateway to your life
especially when you're beingthrown pictures and images of
your friends and colleagues andpeople who are really close to
you and they're having picturesof their new cars and their new
bags and everything that they'vereceived and that actually

(06:02):
comes from not just sellingproduct but recruiting people to
purchase the product, like Iwould be recruited and that
person would get money from mebecause I'm purchasing the
product, if that makes sense.

Gina (06:19):
No, it does.
I mean.
So my company.
We used to do a lot of workwith this company that seems
like it's an MLM, I'm not sure.
It's called Jafra.
They're out of California andthey're targeted to the Hispanic
community and we did so muchwork with them for incentives

(06:41):
and stuff, so they wouldincentivize their distributors
and then they would get aspecialty bag or a specialty, I
don't know something or other.
And now all of a sudden theygot bought out by somebody and
all those incentives are goingaway.
So I don't know if that meansthat they're gonna be more

(07:05):
traditional or if the MLM thingisn't quite working.
Just something interesting thatI've noticed.
It doesn't necessarily relateto anything but the people at
the corporate.
I was working with thecorporate people so they
actually were employees of thebrand, right, but the people who

(07:26):
were getting the incentiveswere just people like you and me
who had been recruited.
And I just think it's hilariousbecause the people at the
corporate center thought thattheir brand was the coolest
thing on the planet and it'sdated and most MLM stuff is not
that cool in my opinion.
But yeah, anyway, I digress, soI don't.

Nicola (07:52):
So what is the psychological kind of hook?
What is the hook that gets usinto this cult?
Cause I wanna kind of circleback into that hook, cause I
wanna tie it into.
How do we get hooked into thesecorporate environments that are
similar to MLMs, right, wherethey're hooking you in and it's

(08:13):
culty in the work environment aswell, and there's kind of this
correlation between the two, Iguess.
So I'm curious to know whatthis hook is that gets people so
kind of caught up in this.

Felicia (08:30):
So there's so many tactics and again, I think
there's various ranges of howoften or how deep these
psychological tactics could be.
So but I can kind of walk youthrough some of them.
So one of them is a verycharismatic persona from

(08:52):
authority, this Authority figurewho is very charismatic, and
they essentially make you feellike you're the only, only
person in the room.
And again varying, you knowdegrees of this, but that I
think that sometimes cultleaders, like some MLM leaders,

(09:17):
might see similarities wherethey see similarities is having
this feeling of charisma in avery isolated way, where they
gain your trust very easily.
And then they kind of say youknow, if you start having doubts
or if you start questioning,you know they come to you and

(09:38):
say that's very negative, youshouldn't think that way.
And oh, you know, your mother,your father, your friend, your
sister, oh, they're doubting you.
You shouldn't be around thosepeople.
And so they kind of bring inthe sense of belonging, this
very strong sense of belongingwhere I've got your back, this

(09:58):
is a positive space, we're hereto support you.
And, again, like I thinkorganizations you know should be
having this positive mentality,but it's not to the point where
you shouldn't think any otherway.
And I think that's kind ofwhere diversity and equity and
inclusion comes into play, wherea more diverse workforce and a

(10:20):
more diverse set of people oremployees and leadership really
hone in on finding these diverseaspects in order to make good
decisions.
But MLMs, cult-like leaders,will do quite the opposite and
they'll kind of like you alsomentioned like, oh, you
shouldn't hang around with thesepeople.

Gina (10:40):
So then it like crosses that work, life, work, sort of
boundary.
It's like, okay, like youmentioned, your mom thinks that
it's a bad idea, so maybe youdon't want to be hearing that,
so maybe limit your time withher.
And it's like why do you get totell me what to do with my free
time?
Yeah, that's weird, whichreminds me of the whole Lizzo

(11:03):
debacle, nicola, like toxicworkplaces tend to kind of which
I'm thinking is starting to be.
Another trait is they tell youwhat to do with your free time,
like what and how to do thingson your free time, which is what
we Especially in anorganization where your downtime
is with the people you workwith in certain environments,

(11:27):
right?

Nicola (11:28):
Do you remember when we had Debs on the episode where
she was working on the line,when?

Gina (11:32):
they're all like right.
Or like an oil rig or somethinglike that.
It's like-.

Nicola (11:36):
Yeah, and where it was live.

Gina (11:37):
You're living with your coworkers, yeah.

Nicola (11:39):
Where I called it Love Island.
Love Island Mining Edition.
Yeah, because you're going,you're getting sex workers in to
this community because they'restuck there for months on end.

Gina (11:58):
So it's like it's just blur.
It's like, would you?
You wouldn't normally do that,like if you went to the office,
right, you wouldn't order a sexworker to come to your office,
right, but because you're livingin the same with your coworkers
, it's very difficult, right,like where do you get to have
your own free time, like youknow?
So if it's not illegal in thecountry that they're in, like

(12:21):
who are we to say, like you knowwhat to do on their free time?
And this is just something thatI've been noticing in this
season of interviews that hasbecome sort of like a hot button
topic.
But, yeah, so also thecharismatic leader, right, and
like they make you feel likeyou're the only one in the room
and like you aspire to be likethem, where they have such a

(12:42):
cool backstory or some nonsenselike that.
And it's like everyone has astory, right, everyone has a
backstory.

Nicola (12:49):
It's just how you pee.
I'll tell you a backstory,Right.

Gina (12:53):
Right, yep, okay.
So what else?
Kind of?
And like what goes into?
I feel like also there has tobe a certain sort of like on the
receiving end, like, let's say,you're being recruited, like if
I was gonna be recruited to anMLM I'd be like, get out of here
, like I have no desire, likenext, go somewhere, go home,

(13:14):
don't bother me.
But I feel like there arecertain-.
How are smart people gettingsucked into it?
Yes, how are they Like yeah,cause, like the girl who we are
gonna interview, she's, I thinkshe's written, since gone on to
like write a book and has becomelike an expert in certain
things.
So it's like she's not.
There's no way.
She's like living under a rockand doesn't hear about these
things.
So how do people, especially inthis day and age, when you have

(13:36):
documentaries about, like LulaRowe and Gwen Shamblin and all
those and you're like you knowright, how are we?

Felicia (13:44):
still getting sucked in .
Yeah, so a couple of things.
One of them is financially.
So there's some people who do,you know, have some success in
this environment and let's say,for example, they say, oh, we
want, we want you to have a car.
You know a lot of MLMs will say, hey, like let's, let's give

(14:06):
you a car and show it.
You can show it off and so.
But what that really means inthe background and I'm not
saying that every MLM will dothis, but an example is, you
know they'll say, hey, you buythe car and then we will give
you know the.

(14:27):
We'll give you like $500 amonth for the car, but you have
to purchase, you know, over$1,000 of product from us a
month and then it's yourresponsibility to sell that
product.
So in order to keep this carand you're sucked into this
lease you have to keep going.

(14:48):
Unless you know things aregonna be, you're gonna be in
debt.
So there's this, you knowfinancial kind of handcuffing
that they create aroundcompensation.
It's not really a compensation,it's you're not an employee,
but you're still gettingcompensated for being a
distributor based on what yousell.

(15:08):
So it's a little bit behind thescenes and so people kind of
just get stuck in this placewhere they might see things that
are not so kosher, but theycontinue because they know, hey,
if I stop now I'm gonna be in abad place.
So that's one thing thathappens.

(15:31):
Another piece is that they havea lot of their social
relationships that are bakedinto the environment.
So if I'm new and you know I'mbeing told, go recruit people
and you're gonna make more moneyas you get more recruit
recruitees, I'm gonna call mysister, my mom, my friends, my

(15:55):
best friends, you know whoevermy aunts, my uncles and I'm
gonna bring them into thisenvironment.
And those are the relationshipsthat I have.
They're the most strong and ifI see something going wrong or
not so great and I end upleaving, they're gonna point the

(16:18):
finger at me.
They're gonna say you're beingnegative, you're not being
supportive, and that's kind ofthis like almost shame that gets
put on people who leave, andespecially from the
relationships that are thestrongest in your life.
Many people are not going totake that risk to leave an

(16:40):
environment where that's all oftheir, you know, social support
comes from.
So that's another which isreally, really difficult to do.

Gina (16:52):
Yeah, because you feel like you're going to let
everyone down.
But specifically, how do peopleget recruited?
In the example you said okay,if I have to go sell these
products, I'm going to call mysister and my best friends and
my whole extended family.
But what kind of do you findthat people who are more in a

(17:15):
vulnerable situation forwhatever reason whether it's
loss of job or like, they're theones who are recruited and then
they're the ones who will goand talk to all of their family
and then kind of get sucked in,like what are the set of
qualities that someone tends tohave that does ultimately get

(17:36):
recruited by an MLM?

Felicia (17:39):
I think that there are some people who are more
vulnerable than others, andthese are people who maybe I've
tried this and that it didn'twork.
Maybe there's some ping ofdesperation to I just lost my
job, this is an easy way for meto start making money, maybe at

(18:00):
least until I find my next job,and then they end up getting
wrapped up in everything thatthat environment brings and they
stay.
And also people who are mostlyin debt, unfortunately, because
that promise of financialfreedom is very attractive to
someone who has had a lot ofdebt build up and they're seeing

(18:25):
how, oh, it works.
All my friends, they're makingso much money and I want that
too.
Or they see pictures orwhatever on social media.
I want that too.
Well, it's not a bad thing towant.
I mean, everybody wants to beable to have that financial
stability.
But when you have the debt, orwhen you don't have a social

(18:47):
circle, or when you'restruggling or you're in a
transition or you're not reallysure where you are socially in
your life and here's everythingreally being offered to you on a
silver platter of promise Ithink that for sure, people are
going to say why not take achance on this interesting new

(19:11):
adventure that's going to bringme parties and excitement and
the ability to run my ownbusiness.
So for sure, I think that thereare people who are more
vulnerable than others to getsucked in as a recruit.

Gina (19:29):
Yeah, this other girl that we briefly spoke to.
She said that she was goingthrough an emotionally and
socially tough time and that'swhen she got involved with the
MLM and then, before she knew it, it kind of like took over her
whole life.
So it's going to be reallyinteresting.

Nicola (19:49):
Yeah, but she's gotten out of it.
But I think about that promiseand again, I'll be living under
the rocks at the moment becauseyou see all over that those
promises aren't necessarily trueand that you've got to

(20:10):
obviously sell, sell, sell, sell, buy, buy, buy, sell, sell,
sell, sell, buy, buy, to evenmake a dent.
And I think there's so muchdata around how little you're
making.
So I know I used to have aflatmate who used to do an MLM

(20:32):
and I was just like how are youbeing sucked, how is this
happening?

Gina (20:39):
Because she was fully subscribed to it and it was all
about getting the newestaddition of this thing and well,
if she was doing that well, shewouldn't need help buying
things and she wouldn't need aflatmate right, because that's
the promise that they give youis that you're going to make so
much money, and I do think thereare, like it's like a unicorn

(21:02):
in some MLMs, that these peoplecan really make money.
Can you explain that phenomenon?

Felicia (21:09):
Yeah, I think that there's some people who have
great talent.
They're great sellers.
Most of the people who make itto the top really believe in the
product.
They've used the product.
They're like this producthelped me do X, y and Z, do this
to my skin, lose weight, and Iam bought in and if I can do it,

(21:31):
you can do it, and that's kindof their pitch and I think some
of the products can be good.
I think it's maybe, maybe not.
I've honestly never tried aproduct before so I really can't
say.
But even if the product wasgood, that's really not the goal
of the organization.
That's making you purchase it,though the goal is to recruit as

(21:53):
many people, as it's a numbersgame.
It's a new crew, 100 people,great.
1% makes it Because they'rejust naturally talented sellers
and they believe in the productand their pitches are great and
they have a good network or whatyou know, or they're motivated
or whatever the case may be.
But at the end of the day youknow, like I said, it's a

(22:14):
numbers game.
So they're making money off ofthat 99% of recruitees,
regardless of whether or notthey're making money.

Nicola (22:22):
But then you've got that numbers game in a small
community.
Let's say, now you've tappedout your family, your whole
family.
Let's say you recruit yoursister.
Okay, now you've got the samecircle of friends.
You've recruited some peopleout of your circle of friends
who also happen to be livingunder rocks, and by the end of
it you have recruited half yourtown.

(22:44):
And now you are tapped out Likethere's no more room for you to
grow because you have literallytapped out on your community.

Gina (22:54):
Wait, can I answer that?
So, like, my mom is actually adistributor of an MLM and she
has been since before I was bornand I'm going to be 44.
So it's like you, just like Igrew up surrounded by MLMs.
Her MLM is slightly differentbecause they don't do parties.
They don't do it's a little bitdifferent and they're selling

(23:18):
like vitamins.
So it's not so much like just aquick buy and like you have to
buy all these things Like, it'slike you take them.
If they work, you continue tobuy it.
So it might be slightly betterthan other MLMs, but the fact is
it's still an MLM.
So what her MLM offers is is she, because there is the element
of recruiting, signing people up, getting them to buy, like even

(23:40):
if like doing a monthly youknow X amount of money every
month.
So what they do is so ifsomeone's in her I'm probably
going to say this around becauseI don't really pay attention
but if she recruits someone andthat person sells to someone
else, she gets part of the otherperson's like profit kind of.
So there's like an incentive.

(24:01):
So it's like she might have.
You know, she's older now, soshe's done recruiting, she's
just working on what she has,but like if one of her recruits
then recruits someone, she stillgets some type of credit for
that.
So I think that's how probablymost MLMs work.
It's like you recruit someone,then you get on their ass about
recruiting more people becauseit only helps.

Nicola (24:22):
It's called like the upline or something it helps the
upline but then you run out ofpeople to tap into Like you've
got to, you don't have to tapinto anyone else because, like
it's you right, that's why it'sa pyramid scheme.

Gina (24:34):
You recruited people and then they're recruiting all
these people below them andyou're still getting something
from all the down people downhere.

Nicola (24:42):
No, I understand the concept.
It's just when you're in asmall community you're going to
run out of people to recruitRight, which is when your down
line works for you.

Gina (24:52):
Yeah Well, that's what they sell, right?
That's the promise they sell.
It might not always be the case, though.

Felicia (25:02):
Yeah, yes, yes.
And like again going back to,there's different degrees of all
of these things and the waythey pay and the way they act or
what they do, and again likethere's 1% who do really, really
well.
But this continuation of just.
You know, the focus is not theproduct.

(25:24):
I think that's kind of thebiggest difference.
The focus is not the product.
The focus, the product at anMLM is recruit, get more people
to buy your stuff, to bedistributors.
More distributors, more buyers,more money.
That is the major message.

Gina (25:44):
Right.
So I think there's moreregulations with and correct me
if I'm wrong, felicia with anMLM, it's kind of just like you
buy your product, you buy intoour idea and it's up to you to
figure out how well you do.
There's no regulations.
Like I've heard people justbecause I listened to a lot of
like cult and true crime docpodcasts like they'll buy like

(26:06):
all of their inventory likeupfront for the year and then
never sell any of it and bestuck with all of that because
they're too afraid to not reachthe quota.
Like I've heard these horrorstories.
So I think it's it's horrible.
It's a completely differentmodel because you have to hold

(26:26):
the inventory and thendistribute it.
Am I wrong, felicia?

Felicia (26:31):
No, I don't think you're wrong.
I think that's probably a lotof people's experience and it's
pretty unfortunate.

Nicola (26:40):
I mean.

Felicia (26:40):
I think that I think there's going to be some people
who do have that product andthey're like that's it.
This is coming out of my housetomorrow and they're going to do
whatever it takes and maybethey will make it.
There's still those, absolutelythere's still those stories,
but they are very far and fewbetween.
And again, it's numbers game.

(27:01):
Buy as much product today, youget 10% off, and they're telling
that to hundreds of people orthousands, however many
distributors that they have andthey're making their money.
They don't need to care abouthow much money you make.
They just need to tell you ifyou don't make the money, you're
not doing a good job.

(27:22):
If you don't make the money,you're not putting in the effort
.
If you don't make the money,that's your problem.
If you don't make the money,you're not taking enough
pictures about how well you'redoing.
You're not recruiting fastenough.
It's just very uncomfortableand I think that if people are
thinking, if people are who arelistening and they are wondering

(27:44):
or they have thoughts about thecompany that they're
distributing, for that maybethey might be in an MLM.
If something doesn't feel right, you're probably right.
It's just go with your gut typeof thing If there's some moral
that you feel is breaking orit's a little soft in the

(28:05):
environment that you're in.
Go with your gut.
I think if you want to findfinancial freedom if that's
really on your mind you have toreally identify your strengths.
Be in a place where you don'tfeel like your morals and values
are being sliced in half.

(28:26):
Then you can dive in and youhave a base salary Not to say
that people can't start theirown company, but to have your
own company and fully depend onone organization.
The majority of what they'retelling you is you need to sell

(28:50):
our product and they're notgiving you anything else or any
other support.
It just so rubs me the wrongway.
It hurts my soul.
I want people to be happy withwhat they're doing.
Most people are happy in theirrole if they love what they're

(29:11):
doing, even whether or not theymake that financial gain,
because they can still go homeand be super happy with hey, I
helped someone today or hey, Imade this product and I love
making this product.
At the end of the day, ifyou're constantly questioning
yourself whether or notsomething was done in a good way

(29:31):
, I think you should dig intowhat that means for you in your
role.

Gina (29:39):
I think this is where Nicola and I are probably.
We love a good MLM slash cultstory.
We love it.

Nicola (29:46):
I've been watching how to be a cult leader.

Gina (29:49):
No, not yet.
I need to.

Felicia (29:51):
I'm addicted, I'm addicted.
It's wild.
Wait, it's on Netflix, right?

Nicola (29:55):
Yeah, okay.

Gina (30:01):
I'm going to have to get on that.
Currently I'm going down amarried at first sight rabbit
hole.

Nicola (30:07):
Thank you, Jesus, for finally coming to the point.

Gina (30:09):
I know I finally am coming .

Nicola (30:11):
Where are you at?

Gina (30:12):
I'm watching for ages and I'm like I'm going to get around
to it when you're at.
No, I'm watching the US version.
I'm aware I have watched all ofthem.
Where are you at?
Oh, I started with the mostrecent season 15.

Nicola (30:26):
Okay, there's just such good, but there's just such good
people before this.

Gina (30:33):
Now that I was like, let me give it a shot, nicholas told
me to do it this whole time.
I just started with the mostrecent season and now that I'm
into it, I'm going to go all theway back, because there's 15
seasons.

Nicola (30:45):
Girl Ready for me to bring.
I will see you next year.

Gina (30:48):
Yeah, okay, anyway, so where Nicholas and I, despite
loving good MLM slash cultstories, how do regular non-MLM
companies like an S corp, notdoing distribution, like how the
MLMs are set up, not promotingnecessarily recruiting, how does

(31:08):
a regular company startexhibiting similar
characteristics?
Because you said, one side isMLM slash cult, the other side
is a healthy company and in themiddle is a spectrum and I think
Nicola and I are mostinterested in that.

Nicola (31:24):
How do we get sucked into the family cult?

Gina (31:27):
Yeah, how do you get sucked into a company that is
very similar in terms ofbehavior, picking up on people's
insecurities like an MLM does,without even realizing that
you're getting sucked in?

Felicia (31:43):
I think that a lot of it has to do with kind of what
we talked about earlier, whichwas my goal, is financial
freedom.
My goal is to get out ofwhatever rutting in.
You know those people who are alittle bit more vulnerable and
just seeing like a light at theend of the tunnel.
And so when we do that, aspeople were like we're going on,

(32:05):
we're going towards my goal,I'm going to, you know, I see I
see some things like that.
That's not so great, but butI'm on my way to my goal, so I'm
going to keep going.
You know, I think that there'sa very strong desire for
whatever.
It is that something somebodyis looking for.
And you know these MLM leaders.
They're providing a lot ofthose solutions.

(32:28):
They're promising financialfreedom.
They're showing you it existsbecause they're, you know,
showing you pictures and andbringing people on stage and
saying you have done so amazingand look what you can be doing.
You can be successful and youcan have, you know your own
business and you can have, youcan own your future.

(32:49):
Look at all these people who aresuccessful, who are doing the
same thing.
They create this like groupthink mentality, again, that
next step of like isolationright now.
It's like I pulled you in andnow I'm going to surround you
with like minded people.
If you do a psychologicalassessment and you it's called
group thing you do apsychological assessment and you

(33:11):
put people in a room to discusssomething.
Let's say there's 10 people.
You have like group A, who theysay they pick one person who's
like the participant and thenthey surround them with like I
don't know nine other people andthey tell those nine other
people behind the scenes.
They go we want you to allagree with each other, okay.

(33:33):
And then they do group B, whichis they have another
participant and they have thesenine people and they say, well,
we want you to publicly disagreewith each other and like, have
the soft, good environment with,okay, with disagreeing.
Well, in this like MLMenvironment.
You're, you're putting, you'rebeing put in this place with all

(33:57):
of these people who think thesame way.
Like there's been studies whereI mean, don't quote me but like,
for example, if you pass like acheeseburger around and
everybody takes a bite and theygo oh, I love, this cheeseburger
is so good, this is thegreatest cheeseburger I've ever
had.
And then you taste it and it'slike the most disgusting thing

(34:20):
you've ever tasted.
You will still agree that it'sthe most amazing cheeseburger
you've ever had because it'sgroup think mentality.
If you don't want to be the you, something must be wrong with
you.
If you don't agree, everyoneelse says the same thing.
Why would you think anythingdifferent?

(34:41):
And so they, they.
You know it's like theyencompass you and they isolate
you in these, this like mindedpeople.
With these like minded people,they show you all this social
proof of success andrelationships and making money,
and you know all of these thingsand I'm I'm the authority
figure and I'm saying you havesomething special.

(35:03):
You know you can make it reallybig.
You just need to put in theeffort, you need to keep going.
This is the.
This is only a hump that you'regoing through.
Everybody goes through it.
You got to keep.
It's a game.
You know it's just likegambling.
It's like, oh, I'm in more debt, I got to try harder.
Oh, I'm in more debt, it'sbecause I'm not trying hard.
You know it's like thiscyclical, socially psychological

(35:28):
mind.
You know I don't want to saythe word but, like you know, I'm
saying you know, yes, I'll letyou say it.
So I just, I just think thatit's you get into this world and
they kind of lock you in andthen you cannot get out because
if you think that is so true,yeah, that's what happened with

(35:52):
us, nikola, in our workplace,because they went to the MLM.

Nicola (35:55):
just to be clear, they were just a standard
organization.

Gina (35:59):
It was not an MLM.
It was not structured like that.
It was just structured like anormal company.

Nicola (36:04):
CEO.

Gina (36:04):
CEO yeah, you know nothing .
We weren't getting being toldto recruit.
There was nothing like that.
But it was the group think itwas the group thing.

Nicola (36:15):
It was like we make the best product.
If you don't believe us, getbeat.

Gina (36:21):
And like when I first got hired, I was hired to fix a lot
of issues there, and so Istarted doing that and in doing
so I started asking hardquestions and being disagreeable
, but in a professional manner.
I wasn't like this productsucks.
I was like, okay, we canimprove by doing X, y and Z,
whatever and over time.

(36:42):
Because either I was then toldlater like oh, so and so, didn't
like that, you said that, or,nikola, you have tons of stories
similarly.
I just stopped, I stoppedparticipating.
It wasn't that I would agree, Iwould just stop loving it, like
I would, just no opinion,nothing.
If that's what this companywants to do, fine, I'll just get

(37:02):
it done for them.

Nicola (37:05):
So it was like almost demoralization of my their group
think was very much centeredaround toxic positivity.

Gina (37:16):
Yes and yes and inexperience.
So they were like co-signpeople's thoughts and ideas that
made no business sense.
So it was that group think.
I think you hit the nail rightin the head, especially in our
case.

Nicola (37:33):
Group think and isolation because you think
about the hours we worked andthe capacity that we had to be
available in.
So you're completely isolatedfrom family and friends because
you just don't have time to seethose people.
So you're isolated to thisgroup of people you're talking
to remotely on Slack and then ontop of that layer, on pond

(37:53):
layer, you've now got the toxicpositivity and you've got the
group think mentality and you'vegot, you know, your vivacious
cult leader telling you but wecan do better and if we don't,
you know we're going to have tolet people go because we just
have to keep doing better.

Gina (38:09):
and you know, whatever it is, it's exactly what you were
saying it's exactly what youwere saying, felicia, because
it's like oh, this is just aroad bump, don't worry, we're
going to get better.

Felicia (38:23):
Yeah, that's all very like superficial stuff.
I think the way like I I'veseen organizations where they
have like an all hands meetingand the the CEO, the CEO, would
come to an all hands meeting andhe would not answer any
questions and I'm like, why areyou such a?

Gina (38:48):
Yeah, you say, insert or you can curse on this.
Answer, your fucking asshole.
Yeah, okay, you're the.

Felicia (38:55):
CEO.
You that's your responsibilityis to answer questions that your
employees have, and like hewould like defer it to like the
head of HR at the time, or likethe CFO or whoever, and like
they just look like they werejust a bunch of chumps.
I'm answering this questionlike everybody could see through
and I'm like if you are aleader, especially the CEO, and

(39:20):
you can't answer hard questions,you are putting blinders not
just on yourself but on youremployees and that doesn't help
anybody and by that way, by theway, that company went through
two layoffs in the same in sixmonths.
Okay, and it drives meabsolutely insane because I'm
thinking.
I'm like, if you, you have aproblem.

(39:43):
Every organization, they havechallenges, period.
You can be Apple, you can bewhatever, you, whatever.
You have challenges.
The best leaders who I have seen, they, they go to an all hands
and they go here's what we'redoing well, here's where we're,
you know, really not doing well.
What are we going to do aboutit?

(40:04):
Let's solve this together.
Here's our plan.
What do you think it's aconstant discussion of?
I want to hear your ideas.
I want you to speak up, come tothe table, tell me something.
I don't know what's yourperspective, what am I not
seeing?
It's 90% of the conversationleaders are having it's not
about this like 10% ofconversation, of like here's

(40:25):
what we're doing and we're justgoing to, you know, hop, skip
and a jump over this.
You know period, you know it's.
It's not that thatconversations maybe 10% and you
there.
You need that.
You still need thatconversation to get people to
say this is the road we're on,we're doing really well.
You have to have thoseconversations, but most of the
time the 90 other percent of theconversation should be.

(40:47):
Here are the challenges, here'swhat we're doing.
Tell me what else we can bedoing to solve these problems,
and that is what makes companiesthrive and be successful and
grow.
I mean, it's just it, it it eatsme, like I see these and it's
funny because the time I hadtold the head of HR at the time

(41:12):
and I told her, I said I said,don't you think you need to?
You know, coach him a littlebit and let him know, because
she and I were on the same pageshe's like he's not coachable.
Well, when a CEO is notcoachable, what does that mean?
You let him go, you figure out,you replace that person.
Because if a CEO can't be coach, what makes you think any other

(41:35):
leader can be coached in yourorganization?
And lo and behold, like he waseventually let go.
I mean I just saw it like frommiles away, you know, I think I
think even from like one allends, I'm like, oh, that's a
problem.
Yeah, things need to change.
So I mean I don't mean to likego on a rant here, but it's,

(41:57):
it's those.
These are real things and theycan be in real organizations.
You just got to kind of look atthose red flags yeah.

Nicola (42:06):
What do you, what do you feel like with?
Let's say, what would the topthree red flags for you be if
you want to avoid a cult likeorganization?

Felicia (42:20):
I think we talked about group think a lot, right?
I mean, if a company is tellingyou that the only place for you
in the world is here and youcan't go and sell other products
, but we're not going to takeany financial responsibility
over what you sell and you'regoing to be able to engage it
like that's huge word, fun, hugered flag.

(42:40):
And I think the other thing isprompt false promises.
If a company is telling youthat you're going to reach your
fullest potential and you knowyou're going to be amazing
financial freedom, you're thisis it, this is the only place
for you to be like that.
And so if you're a company thattalks a lot about or maybe I

(43:08):
should say this, that doesn'ttalk enough about the product
and the science behind theproduct and what it's used for
its, a company needs to educatedistributors about the product.
A company shouldn't be sayinggo find more people to purchase

(43:29):
from you, doesn't matter how youdo it, just go get them to buy
from you and then you will be,you know, you'll be the winner.
I think that is a huge, hugeissue.
You know, companies ormanufacturers of products,
essentially which is what theyare should not, you know, be
telling people, or focused onjust go sell, you know it should

(43:51):
be, here's what the product isand here's how you can hope.
Here's the knowledge we cangive you about the product to
help you sell the product.
And then another one's like notallowing you as your own, you
know consultant or 1099, ormaking you feel guilty or

(44:11):
shameful for going out and doingmore business elsewhere, like
that's a huge red flag.
So I think those are some bigones, yeah.

Gina (44:22):
So but what about, like in a regular organization where,
like the one that Nicola and Icame from, like we weren't, we
weren't told to go, you know,distribute the product because
it was direct to consumer viae-commerce?
But it was sell, sell, sell Likethat was more for, like, the
marketing aspect and there wasno really rhyme or reason to

(44:46):
their products.
And we were just told we'regoing to be the best, we're the
best.
How do we get there?
But then, like, when faced withharsh truths, like okay, you're
not going to make this revenuebecause your timeline is
severely unmanageable, Likenothing is being done in a

(45:07):
proper manner, not acceptingreality and having like that
charismatic leader.
That's where we came from,that's where Nicola and I met
and we, when we left, we feltlike we were actually especially
Nicola.
I was, like I was a little bitless into the cult, Like I was.

(45:28):
I was only there for like maybefour months.
Nicola was there for like fouryears.
So it's you know, I noticed itsooner than Nicola because she
was already noticed in theinterviews as well.

Nicola (45:40):
You saw the red flags in the interview but I dismissed
them.

Gina (45:44):
I saw them and then I dismissed them on like oh,
they're a small company, theyprobably don't have the same.
Like they need someone like mebecause I am very experienced in
what I was hired for.
I knew what I was doing.

Felicia (45:58):
Gina, I just want to take a second to validate that
for you.
Yeah, because yeah, I'll gointo an organization thinking
we're here to help Like we want.
I see, I see the mistakes.
I can help you and.
I think that that's just comingfrom a place of like wanting to
be like a good contributor to acompany.
So you know, I don't want toinvalidate, like how you were

(46:19):
failing you know, during thatprocess there was a well.

Gina (46:23):
Once I got fired after I quit it's my favorite story and
then they gave me severancedummies.
They never had to because Itechnically quit Anyway.

Felicia (46:34):
So go back to episodes like one, two and three.

Gina (46:37):
Yeah, exactly so, anyway.
So I did leave the company.
When I did get fired and feltreally shitty about myself.
I'm like maybe I'm not good atmy job.
Thankfully, the bounce back wasnot as bad as Nicholas, because
I was only there for a shortperiod of time and then I was
like no, I know what I'm doing,this was not a right fit.
This company was not willing tosee the truth, so like, and if

(47:01):
anyone could have righted thatship, it would have been me,
because I have so muchexperience doing what I do, or
someone like me.
So how do you find the red flags?
Because my point in kind ofgoing back to go forward is that
when both Nick and Nick and Ileft and we got back together,
we were like, was that a cultLike?

(47:24):
It felt very MLME, slash, culty, and I think that's where,
again, nicola and I love a goodMLM cult story, love it.
I would love more documentariesabout it, about new ones that
we haven't heard of.
But how do you get like suckedinto these companies that are
very cult like or MLM likewithout actually being an MLM?

(47:46):
And what are those red flags?
Because I think there's a lotof smaller companies and I'm
sure there's even big Fortune500 companies that have similar
characteristics that what me andNicola felt or went through.
So I think that's where my maininterest is.

Felicia (48:06):
A couple things I think .
One of them is if you're in acompany and diversity of thought
is not being promoted or it'smaking people feel shameful or
guilty, that's a big red flag.

Nicola (48:26):
And that's.

Felicia (48:27):
I think that's one of the reasons why, you know, I
talked about diversity, equityand inclusion and why that's
such a big thing right now andwhy I even talk about a lot of
it on my podcast.
But my point is that thatpeople are starting to really
realize what that looks like.

(48:48):
And again, it's about, you know, I've gotten into conversations
where leaders like we were inlike a private conversation and
I'm with like the executive teamand they're like down, like
they're like making fun ofpeople who are who said
something in a meeting that waslike, oh, did you hear what the
person said?
That's nothing, I mean, it wasjust it was like beyond what I,

(49:10):
my ears, could hear, because Ijust thought it doesn't matter
if somebody brings up somethingthat you don't like, or maybe
they were completely off thefact that they brought it up.
You should be excited aboutthat, because that brings
innovation and ideas to thetable and allows people to see
things from a different lens andperspectives.

(49:31):
And that's what makes a goodcompany is helping people make
good decisions, even when I badideas come into the fold.
So I think, when, when you'rehearing or seeing or feeling
that people are looking down ondiverse ideas or thoughts.
I wouldn't like, I wouldn'tencourage continuing in that

(49:52):
environment.
So that's one piece of it.
I think the other piece is whenyou yourself, or all you see
others asking questions and notreally getting answers.
That makes sense and I'll giveyou an example.
You know, hey, you know I wantto ask a question.

(50:15):
I'm in marketing and I want toask a question about what we're
doing, about the engineeringproblem we have.
We have a problem inengineering.
The product, you know, isn'tgoing to be able to go anywhere
until we rehash the code.
What am I supposed to market?
You know, from the marketingperspective?
You know, if you get somethinglike, if you get an answer from
leadership like, oh, just keepdoing what you're doing and

(50:37):
don't, like, really allude tothe fact that there's a problem,
you know, like something likethat, where it's like you know,
my red, my, my like red lightbulb is like shining bright.
A good answer that you want tohear from leadership is hey,
marketing person, come, let's golook under the hood with
engineering.
Let's look at what we're doing.

(50:59):
Help us decide where should weactually put resources and
engineering first to help youmake that marketing message
about what's coming down thepipeline.
And you know three months, sixmonths, so we can help prepare
you for when things are ready,when the product is at its peak
or when you know what can we getcustomers excited about.

(51:19):
Let's have you take a look underthe hood and collaborate with
this, you know, with thisfunction of the business, and
then you guys come up with acool solution you know like
something like that allows likea lot of trans, more
transparency of things, not just, like you know, just keep what
you're doing and keeps yousiloed in your function, like

(51:39):
that's not like a great sign.
And I think that the thirdthing is that you have a life
outside of work and you shouldreally try and embrace that,
because you are not doing anyfavors to your own business If
all you're doing, as you havethese blinders on your.

(52:01):
Just look, you're all of your,you know energy is 100% in work.
You really need to take timefor yourself, have conversations
outside of work, go to a museum, go have different experiences
and come back to theorganization and say I have
something else to say.
Oh, here's what I heard outsideof work and here's you know,
here's what has sparked mycreativity to bring into the

(52:24):
fold what do you think and have,like interesting conversations?
Because when you're goingoutside of your work and you're
talking to people with differentexperiences, different
perspectives, experiencing evenon vacation oh, I went to, you
know, italy and this is whatthey had and this was so cool.
You know, what can we do herethat that I liked, you know, to

(52:45):
see in my downtime, like thoseare the types of rich
conversations you want to behaving and if you're 100%
dedicated to your work and don'tget me wrong, I'm totally
guilty of this like I've worked24, seven in my days, for sure,
but at the end of the day, youknow a lot of that growing of

(53:05):
myself and the business and myteam comes from what do I do
outside of work that I cancontribute to work and that also
brings, you know, a lot ofdiverse creativity and
innovation perspective to work.

Nicola (53:21):
So oh for sure, Like so this podcast is.
You know, outside of my day joband the amount of times that
I've brought up what people havesaid in this podcast where I'm
like girl, let me tell you howwrong we are.
We got schooled recently.
Yeah, I know, and I thought Iknew you know all of this stuff,

(53:47):
but actually here's a wholebunch of other stuff that I
didn't realize I knew, andhere's some new thinking as well
.
But then again, you look at itfrom you know the other
perspective and you know youlook at it from the perspective
of I do have a day job and thenI throw myself into all of the

(54:09):
work that we do to get thepodcast maintained and doing and
editing and social media andyou know all of the things that
come with that and you know it's.
It's like an avoidance tactic,right, because you don't want to
deal with, like, what's reallygoing on.
So you throw yourself into allof these other things and I,

(54:32):
like this is going to soundterrible.
Another unpopular opinion fortoday I I struggle to relax ever
, because the minute I startrelaxing, I think about all the
47,000 other things that I needto be doing and I feel like my
time is so unproductive forrelaxing.

Gina (54:52):
Hmm, I don't have that problem.
Oh, I've really, because I'vereally learned to train myself
and I think this is and I thinkI've mentioned this before in
the podcast I used to feelintense pressure to respond to
every single email like superquick, and just recently I've

(55:15):
realized most people don'trespond to emails as quickly as
I am giving myself all of thisinternal pressure to respond.
So I started testing theboundaries.
I'd be like I'm going torespond in like, like they
emailed me at 10am, I'm going torespond to like two, and then I
would push it back a little bitlonger.
And now I'm just like I'm likeI'm going with it and it's

(55:37):
really like an act, like it's anact of letting go right.
It's like I can respond to themwithout that intense anxiety of
if I don't respond to themright now, they're never going
to work with me again.
It's like that's really not howit works.
They're doing tens of millionsof other things and, yes, they
need my information, but do theyneed it almost immediately?

Felicia (55:59):
Probably not, you know yeah, I, I come, I have seen
that happen.
And there's this likedependency on a leader's
approval.
There's this like manipulationof like you know, you know a
leader can maybe like say orlike put it out there in a way

(56:20):
where it's like, if you don'trespond immediately, like, where
are you, what are you doing?

Gina (56:25):
And that's where I came from.
That's where that came from isbecause I didn't respond like
within an hour my old boss wouldbe like do you get this email?
How come I haven't heard fromyou?
So I learned to respond and sayreceive your email, I'm working
on it, I'll get back to you.
Like I needed to validate thisperson's like sense of urgency
and while I think learning asense of urgency, especially in

(56:49):
the work that I do, because itis manufacturing, so there are
often timelines that must bekept or else you're dead in the
water, but there is that was oneside of the coin is learning
that urgency is appropriate incertain situations, but not in
every f-ing email Like give me abreak.
Like.
I was expected to risk.

(57:09):
You know, Nicola, you canunderstand this.
Like we were in that position,I was on 24 seven.

Nicola (57:15):
Yeah, it's like if I didn't respond within.

Gina (57:17):
So now it's like that leftover, like anxiety, and I
haven't worked at that companyin like 13, 14 years, but it had
such a long standing effect onme that now it's like 14 years
later I'm trying to undo whatwas done within like a year and
a half of being at that company,you know.

Felicia (57:38):
And that is the fear and guilt manipulation.
If you don't respond, I'm goingto be upset and you should feel
guilty because you don'trespond Like I own you type of
like.

Gina (57:53):
Yep, and I would have to explain why I didn't respond
like within what she deemed as anorm, and half the time it was
like I didn't have the answer.
I was gathering all theinformation to present it to you
so that we can make an educateddecision, like together and
like that was never good enough,you know.

Felicia (58:09):
Yeah, that's like a desperate leader, honestly.
You know someone just can't,you know, will like only depend
on like a few people in thecompany and then you're like
owned.
You know, if you're not loyalto me or if you're not doing

(58:30):
what I need you to do, you knowthat's disloyalty.

Nicola (58:34):
That was the big issue with me at the previous
organization is I was kind ofthe go to person and if someone
else could explain it I couldsolve it.
I mean, I've just yeah, goahead.

Gina (58:47):
No, no, yours is way more important.
Say it.

Felicia (58:52):
No, I was just saying that.
There's an experience that Iknow of where a woman was you
know the right hand of her boss.
She got pregnant and her bosslike, totally just like, was
like you're nothing to me, ohyeah, and the boss is a woman, I

(59:15):
bet right.
She was a woman.

Gina (59:18):
I knew it Women, and we had a whole session.

Felicia (59:23):
I mean, I don't want to be like biased, but she
happened to be a woman.

Gina (59:27):
No, no, we had an expert on here saying how women are our
own worst enemies in theworkplace, and I think there is.
Yeah, she said she has a bookcalled behind frenemy lines and
it's like we're doing adisservice to other women
because we're like that.
That's a whole different topic.
That's a whole different topic.

Felicia (59:48):
Yeah, and then, also, you think that whole other show.

Nicola (59:52):
Then you think about Taylor's, taylor's situation.

Gina (59:54):
Oh my God, you have to tell her.

Nicola (59:57):
And then she was texting .
So we had someone on the on thepodcast and she was pushing out
the baby pushing.
She was in active labor, thebaby was coming and her boss was
like, could you get me thisinformation?
Congrats on the baby, bt.
Yeah.

Gina (01:00:18):
Wow, it was like when you're done pushing out a baby,
just let me know so and so'sphone number Congrats on having
the baby.
Btw, it was like so ridiculous.
I was like is this person forreal?
Like, is this an actual person?
Who thought this was likesocially?

Nicola (01:00:34):
acceptable to do this.
Oh, you would check.

Gina (01:00:37):
Yeah, I'm like is this AI?
Like this is not, this is notreal.
Yeah, but I think we'redigressing into like how women
are sometimes our own worstenemies in corporate situations.
Yeah, but I do think women areand this is I'm probably getting
canceled for this.

(01:00:57):
I think women are much.

Nicola (01:00:58):
It's the show of being canceled.
Should we just call this showcanceled for us?
Well?

Gina (01:01:01):
all canceled, except for Felicia, Gina and Nicola are
canceled.
I do think women tend to bemore manipulative, because
that's how we're raised and I dothink that that is something
like we're less overt at beingmanipulative.
It's a little more subtle.
I feel like, and I feel likethat that's like think of some

(01:01:26):
of like these great like MLMleaders.
Right, you had the I don't knowher name the Lula Role lady.

Nicola (01:01:33):
Oh, and her husband.

Gina (01:01:35):
Right, but she was like the face of it, gwen Shamblin,
who I just can't believe that'san actual person.
Based on the way she looks, Ifeel like it's a lizard wearing
like a wig and like do you knowwho I'm talking about?
Felicia.

Nicola (01:01:51):
Gwen Shamblin.
I don't oh my.

Gina (01:01:52):
God, you have to look at a picture of her.
You're going to.

Felicia (01:01:56):
I know I'm like doing all the wrong things.
I'm like I'm so involved withwords I'm living under a rock.
I'm the I should be canceledafter.
I just shared everything that Ijust shared.

Gina (01:02:08):
No, no, you shouldn't be canceled because this is a
little bit more of it had a morereligious spin, so I wouldn't.
It wasn't really like you knowwhat I mean.

Nicola (01:02:19):
It was definitely MLM and it was all about white.
It was culty it was very culty,but it was the.
You have to Google this womanbecause you need to see this
woman's hair, okay, Hold on.

Gina (01:02:29):
Okay, I'm going to be like I'm putting it in the chat,
just so.

Nicola (01:02:38):
Like, once you've seen it, you cannot unsee the lizard
skin.

Gina (01:02:42):
Do you see it, felicia?
Let me see.
It's in the chat.
Oh my goodness.
Is that not a lizard wearing ahuge wig and just a skin suit.
That is Gwen Shamblin.
She's dead now and he shouldn'tspeak at all of the dead, but
like she was wild, oh you knowshe's got her own thing going.

Felicia (01:03:05):
That's her brand, her brand.
Yeah, it's working.
You know you shared her picture, it worked.

Gina (01:03:14):
She's now dead, so we don't know how much she's
working inside a home.

Nicola (01:03:17):
That's so true, it works so good.
You just shared her picture,exactly, exactly.
Her marketing is on fire.
Evil yeah.
Wait so should.

Gina (01:03:28):
I make my hair even bigger when I take it out of its
ponytail, because I have likereally curly hair.
I was like, should I like makeit?

Nicola (01:03:35):
Can you just start, you know what I learned to trick it
at Christmas time.
Okay, just my best Okay.

Gina (01:03:45):
I feel like.
I feel like this is my hair socurly.
I feel like you and I, felicia,have come from similar length
hair, so yeah.

Nicola (01:03:53):
Mine's too.
Mine's too.
I think you can put like awater bottle, like an empty
water bottle, and then you putyour hair up in the water bottle
.
You can make like a Christmastree with your water bottle.

Felicia (01:04:05):
I'm thinking of that movie.
Hairspray yes, with the cans,yeah.

Gina (01:04:11):
Yeah.

Nicola (01:04:12):
Yeah, look at this, look at this, I'm like, I'm like the
thing from the who Done it?

Gina (01:04:19):
Grinch?
Look at this.
Yes, the who's in Whoville,please.
Okay, wait.
But can we go back to why GwenShamblin is such a weird lizard
person?
No, I'm just kidding, that'snot but, by the way, her husband
was total, like he used to bereally hot.
He played Tarzan in like someshow, okay, so I was talking

(01:04:43):
about how I feel like women aremore manipulative, subtly, and
that's why they make for bettercult leaders.

Felicia (01:04:49):
Well, I don't know if it makes them a better cult
leader, but I can say thathistorically, you know, we've
really had to fight our waythrough.
We're still kind of doing it toget the respect and the
leveling you know.
I mean there's many, manythere's.
Statistically speaking, there'sabsolutely more men on boards

(01:05:13):
and executive teams than women.
That's just the fact.
And I feel like sometimes wetry to compensate for that.
And so when we feel someone has,like, abandoned us I'm not
talking about myself, but I'mjust saying sometimes women feel

(01:05:35):
like someone's abandoned us.
You know we have to fight evenharder, like tooth and nail, to
get the respect or like theleadership, title, position,
compensation, leveling, all ofthat, you know, in order to get
there.
And so when someone leaves us orwe can't rely on them anymore,

(01:05:56):
for whatever reason, you know ithurts maybe a little bit, maybe
it stings a little bit morethan it would be.
Like a male and again, I'm notI think that there's plenty of
men out there that would feelthe same way, it's not just
women.
I'm just saying that, like ourhistory in the workplace has

(01:06:19):
been a little bit more of astruggle than men.
So you know, I think, again,it's really just I hear what
you're saying like themanipulation might be a little
bit deeper, but at the end ofthe day, you know it's also.
We are also, as women, oftenlooked at as more socially aware

(01:06:46):
and we might leverage thosesocial or interpersonal savvy,
strengths, competencies andskill sets to get to where we,
you know what we need or wherewe need to be, so, in that sense
, maybe more likely to leveragethose social relationships more

(01:07:08):
than men in the workplace.

Nicola (01:07:10):
Interesting.

Felicia (01:07:12):
Yeah, but don't quote me on all of that.
I'm just making assumptions.

Gina (01:07:18):
We're just having an open conversation.
No, because historically, ifyou look back, most cult leaders
are men, right.
So maybe it's a women's turn tobecome cult leaders.
We probably would be moresuccessful.
That's what I'm saying.
I feel like we would be supergood at it because, like, we

(01:07:39):
have the ability to leveragedifferent things than men do,
although I think men areinherently trusted because, like
, especially in America, that'slike what we've brought up to
like men are the ones, like allof our presidents have been men
right.
Like we're more likely to lookup to and trust in an
authoritative position, a manright.

Nicola (01:08:02):
And like a woman.

Gina (01:08:04):
Yeah, it's like oh, who did she have to sleep, to sleep
with to get to that?

Nicola (01:08:08):
position.
Like you know, there's thatwhole like undercurrent.

Gina (01:08:11):
that happens, but maybe it is time for women to become
cult leaders.
I say, go for it, let's seewhat happens.

Felicia (01:08:19):
Well, I want to officially discourage any cult
leadership.
You know what I'm saying.

Nicola (01:08:26):
I would like to start a cult and it wants to join.
You know I'm going to start acult, but it's going to be a
let's go with a coffee tastingcult, and we obsessed with
coffee.

Gina (01:08:43):
I think that now you have to give us all the false
promises.

Nicola (01:08:47):
I also think, though, that that star above you will
find a coffee that you love.

Gina (01:08:54):
And you'll have freedom to have access to that coffee all
the time.

Nicola (01:08:57):
Again, I think you know what else is if you get more
people involved eventually,because it's going to be the
zombie apocalypse soon.
Because, because you know yougot to have some and we've been
watching how to create a cultleader, we need an apocalypse.
So, because there needs to be azombie apocalypse soon, we can

(01:09:17):
use the coffee as a medium totake us to the zombies.

Gina (01:09:26):
Right, okay, I think I yeah Okay.

Nicola (01:09:31):
I'm not, I'm so excited we need a coffee.

Felicia (01:09:33):
We need a cup of coffee because the apocalypse is
coming, and then there will benew, new planet, land, and we,
if we, without all your bestcoffee right.

Gina (01:09:46):
We need to hold it.

Nicola (01:09:47):
We need to hold it so obviously.
Hoard as much coffee as you can.
My coffee followers lovers yeah, oh my God, I'm a cult leader.
I'm a terrible cult leader guys.

Gina (01:10:02):
Okay, so I would be an I think I would be an amazing cult
leader, honestly, because Ithink my pitch would be um wait,
are we doing the coffee pitch,or should we do something?

Nicola (01:10:15):
You go with whatever you're pitching because I'm
going to go with.

Gina (01:10:17):
I'm going to pitch the coffee cult because you, I'm
going to see if I can do it in abetter way.
So, like everybody loves coffee, right?
So what I'm going to do is I'mgoing to set up this cool
exclusive club and only certainpeople can get into it.
And in order to get into it,you have to purchase the coffee
from me.
And after you purchase it, youthen have to sign your loyalty

(01:10:37):
to me and my ideas, because I'mthe only one who knows how to
get the specialty coffee foreveryone.

Felicia (01:10:44):
Yeah.

Gina (01:10:44):
Wow, that was really good.

Nicola (01:10:46):
I'm like wait good, You're way better at this than I
am.

Gina (01:10:51):
I'll do the marketing.
I, yeah, you could do themarketing.
I have the weird ability tomake people my friends
immediately, and I think I don'tdo it only in work situations
Like cause I personally, I'mlike everyone, leave me the fuck
alone.
I just want to stay here andbinge married at first sight,
leave me alone.
But like when in work scenarios, I'm like the first one to tell

(01:11:16):
like a funny little anecdote tomake people like warm up to me.
You know?
So I'm probably a goodsalesperson, even though I hate
doing sales, which is why Ithink I'd be a great cult leader
.

Felicia (01:11:29):
Well, you definitely you know, have the knowledge now
.

Gina (01:11:33):
I mean even before.
Yeah, so I mean I think you,you refined my knowledge to be
an even better cult leader.

Felicia (01:11:40):
I've given you some, some or you know some like.

Nicola (01:11:45):
I have flags.
I have flags in the book.

Felicia (01:11:49):
Halt status.
You guys should be interviewingeach other.
What do you mean?
No, I know this.
You guys are like.

Gina (01:11:58):
We're one step away from starting our own coffee cults
and you'll be, on first yeah.

Nicola (01:12:05):
You're gonna be having like bags of coffee delivered to
your house and you're gonna betrying to like feverishly sell
this coffee.
We're not going to do well withthe Mormons, though.
Having been in Utah for alittle while, I don't feel like
we're gonna.
That's not the area we need topitch at.
Why?

Gina (01:12:20):
Because they don't drink coffee.
What in the hell?
Why did I never put thattogether before the Mormons?
They don't drink the coffee.
No, you're right, I did knowthat, but I didn't think about
it.

Nicola (01:12:30):
Girl.
This is why Do you know howhard it was for me to find
coffee at like?
And you thought, yeah, but I am.

Gina (01:12:36):
I was on struggle.
Wait, I have a question.
Why are and you might not knowthe answer why are Mormons so
fucking good at creatingproducts and being so successful
?

Nicola (01:12:49):
Oh my.

Gina (01:12:49):
God, they're so good at it .
I don't know what it is, butevery single Mormon is some type
of business owner or high up insome kind of CPG company, or I
don't know.
What the hell did you do?
Why?
What is it that makes them thatway?

Nicola (01:13:08):
Okay, I'm just going to throw it out there, having, you
know, hung up with the Mormonsin Utah for a little while I
said a little while, it was likea week.
So obviously I'm an expert, Iam going to throw it out there
and I'm going to say that theyhave got a really tight knit
network and community and Ithink and it's large.

(01:13:31):
It's a large network and a largecommunity, but it's tight knit
right and everybody knowseverybody, who knows everybody,
and you will know someone elseand someone else's network
through the community.
It's two degrees of separation.
And I think what happens is youhave these really innovative
ideas coming in.
You know someone finds like aniche product or whatever it is,

(01:13:52):
and then they test it out on,let's say, a smaller community.
It works really well and thenblows up because, boom, you've
got this massive network ofpeople to tell it to.

Gina (01:14:05):
Well I think, okay, then we're going to let the expert
tell us.
But my feeling is they alreadyhave a built in like buyer Group
thing.
Right, it's like, it's likethey're because like, oh, so and
so, who I know is starting theskincare line, I'm going to
support them and give them andbuy from them and then, before

(01:14:29):
you know it, the company'sshowing revenue, which then can
you know.
Once the company is showingrevenue and showing growth, you
can really take it anywhere, butthat growth might not be
totally organic, because thecommunity is so tight knit.
Are we wrong or are we right?

Felicia (01:14:44):
Last, question of the podcast, I think that you have a
good assumption of what itcould be.
I think it's a good, educatedguess, but I would not be able
to tell you yes or no.

Gina (01:15:04):
Because, I'm always astounded at how many companies
I'm like.
I had no idea they were basedin Salt Lake City, and the
majority of them.
Just because you're in SaltLake City doesn't mean you're
owned and operated by Mormons,but it's a high likelihood,
right?
So I'm always like going backto stationary Right.

Nicola (01:15:22):
One of the biggest stationary brands is based in
New Tund.
They're huge.

Gina (01:15:28):
Right.
So it's like yeah, and it'slike what are they doing?
That's so different?
I would love to know.
I would love some personalquestion.

Felicia (01:15:36):
I would love to know that's the next episode.
We've got to find someone.
We have to find someone who'ssuccessful Mormon in Utah.
I actually might have someone.

Nicola (01:15:49):
Oh but these, ella, connection 101.

Gina (01:15:54):
No, if you want to approach them and then say, hey,
we're looking, I know.

Nicola (01:15:58):
I just we're curious, yeah, we would love to have this
candid conversation yeah.

Felicia (01:16:05):
I will check my network for you, girls.
I will.
But again, I think what drawspeople healthy organization,
unhealthy organization isorganization, mlm, all across
the spectrum.
It's going to be values.
That's just what draws people.
Do you have the same values asI do?
I believe you, I trust you, Irespect you, I want to be in

(01:16:27):
your world, mormon.
They have values, they're verystrong and they're going to
bring people who have the samevalues into their fold.
And they know a lot of peoplewho have similar values.
So to your point.

Nicola (01:16:44):
I love that.
I feel like Lula Roo was Mormonbased as well.

Gina (01:16:49):
Oh, I don't know about that, but I can't I can't
remember what it was, was it?
But I keep thinking of the realhousewife of Utah.
She owns the beauty lab, beautylab and laser.
It's like a huge name now andshe started it in Utah.
Now it's like everywhere andalso like Dime Beauty, like all

(01:17:12):
of these crazy companies andyou're like I had no idea that
it goes back to Utah and arelikely Mormon owned and it's
like, yeah, I would love to knowwhat their secret is, because I
want to replicate it, but Iwould love to know too.

Nicola (01:17:25):
Okay, hold on, yeah, because then we could just
replicate it Right.
Hold on, girl, okay.
Yes.
On the Washington Post there isan article called the Allure of
Companies like Lula Roo to leta day say woman the hidden link
between the history of Mormonwoman and California games.
Okay.
So Lula Rich features woman.

(01:17:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sheisn't overtly religious, however
, it's all about linking.
So it's been over with Lula Roo.
She was part, she tapped intothe culture of let it say it to
build her power.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
So she's quoting a lot of thevalues from the Book of Mormon

(01:18:06):
in this space, often in insularcommunities, sometimes growing,
so converts of a particularproduct gathered together and
build community.
Often in insular communities,sometimes growing at an alarming
rate in the eyes of othersnearby, and because they're

(01:18:28):
tight knit and they live in thesame communities, it's easy to
share kind of like catches on,like wildfire.
Home industry selling straw,hats, oil, clothes, home spun
material became a significantpart of the economy in Utah,
helping the LDS community becomeindependent from outside
influences in the latter half ofthe 19th century.

Gina (01:18:48):
I just want to point everyone to what the Luluro
trick looks like, and you and Iare doing something very wrong
if we want to be MLM leadersbecause we need some wild kind
of hair and some feral look inour eyes, and I don't think we
actually have that.

Nicola (01:19:05):
Founder of 2013.
Luluru was built on the ideasof LDS and the center like
centered focus on family to itsidentity in its public materials
.
If you want to create anincredible wealth, identity and
underutilized, identify anunderutilized resource, and if

(01:19:26):
you make that choice, you'repenalized and like yada, yada,
yada.

Gina (01:19:29):
Okay, so you don't want to take the community?
Yeah, and I think there's goesback centuries.
But I also think that when youuse properly, like with some of
the companies I've named, it's,it catches on like wildfire and
then it just goes.
It's like it's like naturalmarketing, right, it's like
marketing within that community,and then those people probably

(01:19:50):
have friends outside and it'sjust like old fashioned word of
mouth.
Okay, well, we have taken upseven more minutes than we told
you we would.

Nicola (01:19:58):
And I feel terrible that we take it up your time of
absolute trash talk.

Gina (01:20:02):
Yeah, we've just been like being like, can I be a
colleague and you're beingcolleague?
Who's going to be the bestcolleague?

Felicia (01:20:07):
or colleague, we all have the tools now to be an
effective colleague.

Nicola (01:20:11):
Hold on, alicia.
Okay, what is your cult planfor the coffee shop?

Felicia (01:20:16):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I think, I think what Iwould do is make everyone feel
super special by, you know,having very special beans for my
coffee.
And I would tell them that andI would promise them, like
unicorn capabilities If theydrank my coffee.
And then I would get them alltogether in one pot and I would

(01:20:42):
just, you know, take them tolike an unknown location for
three days and I would tell themyou know, all of you are ready
to be unicorns and if anybodytells you otherwise, cut them
out, because they just jealousof you.
And then I would tell them thatthe good thing to do in life is

(01:21:04):
to get other people becomeunicorns too.

Gina (01:21:06):
And that isn't it amazing to be a unicorn.
And you're almost there.

Felicia (01:21:12):
You're almost there how beautiful you know your.
Your ponytail is your rainbow,yeah.

Nicola (01:21:21):
We really need to get a coffee game.

Gina (01:21:23):
Yeah, we have a schooled You're.
You're going to be the residentcult leader.

Felicia (01:21:29):
Unicorn leader.

Gina (01:21:31):
Yes, coffee unicorn cult leader.
But can you tell people whereif they want to join your
unicorn cult coffee?
No, where if they want toactually learn how to like to
join?

Nicola (01:21:44):
our cult today.
Yes, tell us where we can findyou.

Felicia (01:21:48):
In my coffee unicorn adventure.
You can go to CPO playbookcom.
We also have a podcast, cpoplaybook.
We're very serious on mypodcast.
Unfortunately, it's not asglamorous as this one, of course
, but we talk about realsubjects and this is a real

(01:22:11):
subject that we've been talkingabout today, but we talk about.

Gina (01:22:13):
Wait a second.

Felicia (01:22:16):
No no no no, no, not the end.

Gina (01:22:18):
Yeah, no, it's not every way to say it is your more
professional.

Nicola (01:22:24):
You're fine.

Gina (01:22:26):
No, you're fine.

Felicia (01:22:30):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, we talk about what's happening
today.
So I interview, you know, chiefpeople, officers and leaders
who are actually havingchallenges in their world today
and they actually solve theproblem.
So every episode is like aproblem that we solve.
We talk, I interview them andthe problems that they're having

(01:22:54):
today and we try and solve themin an organization.
So it's really fun and excitingand I'm enjoying it so far and
I hope you guys listen.

Gina (01:23:05):
So we will.

Nicola (01:23:06):
Yeah.

Gina (01:23:07):
Okay, and are you on LinkedIn, Instagram?
Tell everyone where we can findyou.

Felicia (01:23:12):
I am on LinkedIn all the time.
I am on there and I have notyet set up my amazing Instagram.
I haven't like set up myInstagram to show my coffee at,
but I'm going to show my coffeesoon.
I'm just making sure I have allof the rainbow colors together.

Gina (01:23:30):
Okay, so.
So stay tuned for your inviteto the rainbow unicorn coffee
cult.

Nicola (01:23:37):
You know I'll be marketing.
I will come up with a bettername for your cult.

Felicia (01:23:41):
Thank you, I'm thinking about adding that too, but
we'll see oh for sure.

Gina (01:23:46):
That goes without saying.
I think it's just assumed.
And if you don't assume it,then you can't be a unicorn.

Felicia (01:23:53):
Exactly, you can only get special glitter from me.

Gina (01:23:58):
And only Fisher has that special, can you?

Nicola (01:24:00):
imagine like a glitter coffee Gross.
No, like edible glitter, you dothis.

Felicia (01:24:05):
It's still gross.
I wouldn't eat that in myneighborhood.
Oh my God you did.

Nicola (01:24:10):
Oh, my God, I would.

Felicia (01:24:11):
Yeah.

Gina (01:24:14):
But your mouth like gets like Come on, but what does it
taste like, doesn't?
It doesn't taste like anythingdifferent.

Felicia (01:24:22):
It just looks pretty, and then it gets like really
messy, kind of like, kind oflike a cult looks pretty, get
really messy.

Gina (01:24:32):
I love it.

Felicia (01:24:34):
I love it.
All right.

Gina (01:24:36):
It was so much fun talking to you.
Thank you for indulging ourweird tangents inside track.
Thank you for the timing me.