November 28, 2023 • 49 mins
Imagine being excited about a new job, only to find out that your employer is deceitful and manipulative. That’s the reality that Zuhara Miriam, a marketing and PR expert from Kenya, faced when she took on a job with a fraudulent employer. This episode serves as a cautionary tale, and a reminder to always be vigilant when entering into any employment agreement.
We navigate the treacherous waters of employment contracts gone awry, delayed payments, and the subsequent resignation. Listen to Zuhara’s harrowing experience of working under Catherine, a boss who not only delayed her payments but also created a toxic workplace culture. You may find yourself nodding along, recognizing similar experiences. Or, you may be shocked at the audacity of some employers. Either way, you're in for an enlightening conversation about work ethics, honesty, and transparency.
Lastly, we delve into the repercussions of a toxic leader and how that can leave deep scars on a team. Zuhara's story serves as a stark reminder of the struggles that many face in the PR industry. Despite the challenges, she rem
Welcome to Season 2, where we embark on authentic and unfiltered conversations about life, relationships, society, and more. Our opinions are solely our own and don't represent professional advice. It's just our perspective, so form your conclusions. Heads up, this podcast may contain adult content and explicit language. Let's dive in!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gina (00:00):
So, nicola, do we just want to jump right in, or let's?
Nicola (00:05):
jump straight in Zuhara.
Do you want to introduceyourself and give us a little
bit of information about whatindustry you work in, a little
bit of information around you,know kind of where you are,
because you're not anywhere inour locations in the world.
Zuhara (00:21):
Sure, so I'm Zuhara Miriam.
I'm a marketing and PR expert.
I've been working as afreelancer for over five years
now and at the moment I'mworking with Autapair.
I'm based in Kenya.
Gina (00:37):
Okay, so can you give us sort of like an idea of what
your day-to-day tasks typicallyare in your position, so that
when you tell us your story wekind of might be able to
understand it a little bitbetter?
Zuhara (00:53):
Sure.
So basically, as a PR person,we working with the agency, we
have different clientele, so weget to understand the clientele,
build their bios for them andthen create different kind of
pitches that can be able to havethem as an industry authority
spokespeople in their particularniche market so that it can be
(01:15):
able to help, you know, placethe brand in front of a lot of
other people and also help topropel their brand and also, you
know, build sales.
So basically it's likemarketing but in a wider
spectrum.
Gina (01:29):
Okay.
So how did you?
We know which job you're gonnatalk about, but our listeners
don't.
So can you tell us how you kindof came across the position,
how it was presented to you,Give us a little background on
this particular job that you'regonna take us through?
Zuhara (01:48):
So I met her through the freelancers platform that was
Freya and then we startedworking until the project ended.
After that, she approached melater on and she was like you
know, I'm putting a teamtogether so that I can be able
to come up with this agency andwork it on a broader, you know,
(02:08):
prospect.
And then she was targetingwomen because she wanted it to
be a women-led kind of organizedagency working with different
women as well.
So that is how I came to get toknow her.
So once she approached me, wedid a contract with her and I
was like okay, this looks likean amazing opportunity and also
the intention is good, so I'dlike to be part of the team.
(02:29):
And that's how we startedworking together.
Gina (02:32):
So what was your?
Do you have an employmentagreement or a contract or
anything like that?
Zuhara (02:40):
Yes, yes, we did.
I was working as her peermanager full-time.
Nicola (02:44):
Yeah, Okay and like and I don't wanna jump ahead, but we
know that things go pear shaped.
So I'm curious to know when yougot the employment contract to
sign, were there any like weirdclauses or anything in there
that kind of stuck out to you asmaybe a red flag at the time?
Gina (03:06):
Or.
Zuhara (03:07):
Not really.
Gina (03:08):
Sidebar.
Did you not even read it fully,like I probably would not have.
I probably just been likesigned, whatever, yeah.
Zuhara (03:15):
Yeah, actually I did read it, not with an angle of
something was going to go wrongin future, so I did read it just
to see the kind of jobdescription I have, the number
of hours I'll be working andthat the amount we have agreed
as payment has been capturedcorrectly.
Gina (03:32):
So there was nothing that you were like, hmm, that sounds
weird, and then never askedabout it or or just was able to
kind of explain it away in yourown head, cause I feel like
that's what happens in toxicworkplaces.
You're like they probably don'tmean that, cause that sounds
insane.
And then you're like, oh,they're like fast forward six
months and you're like, wait,they did mean that they are
(03:53):
insane.
Zuhara (03:56):
No, basically I think she pulled it from somewhere and
just put it together, soeverything seemed to flow at
that particular time.
Remember, this is somebody alsohas been working with
organizations in terms ofemployee culture and all that.
So I'm assuming.
Gina (04:10):
So Nicola and I kind of did a little bit of a I wouldn't
say the deep dive, but we gotcurious after we first talked to
you.
Are we allowed to say her nameor her organization?
Yes, yeah.
Wasn't her name CatherineCatherine.
Zuhara (04:27):
Yeah, it is Catherine.
12 minutes yeah.
Nicola (04:30):
Okay, cause when we went on the website it was really
weird, like everything was weird, and we did our best effort to
try and contact her.
We contacted her through themain website linked in, and then
also.
Gina (04:49):
And then her other thing which I can't wait for us to get
to the culture.
What is it called again?
Zuhara (04:56):
Culture cure, culture cure, culture cure.
Gina (04:58):
Okay, so I can't wait for us to get into that, but we did
reach out to her cause.
We wanted to hear her side.
Maybe sometimes the truth is inthe middle somewhere, but I
don't know if we necessarilybelieve that.
But I think we're on your side.
But I think we just wanted tokind of get an idea of like why
(05:18):
would you do this?
Like I don't want to give toomuch away, but like if it was
something serious, like thecompany's going bankrupt or yeah
, or something like Like justtell your employees be like, I
fucked up, I accidentally likeyou couldn't paint it however
you want, but just be honestabout it.
Like you would have been pissedbut you would have been like at
(05:41):
least they told me that thiswas happening, you know.
Zuhara (05:45):
You know like, but then we had this B to labin, because
you can't tell your employeesthat you know I'm broke, we're
bankrupt and you're takingvacations and clients are clean.
We're going to get to that.
We're going to get to that, I'mgoing to get there.
Gina (05:59):
Yeah, but I think what Nikhil and I were we were A, we
were, I think part of us werelike maybe we can like ambush
her and she'll have to come upwith something.
Nicola (06:11):
Maybe she comes up with some of the money she always you
.
Spoiler alert.
Gina (06:14):
Yeah.
So basically this woman and weare going to get into it ends up
not paying you for your work.
That has been clearlydocumented.
Like you came with receipts.
Like you didn't just allegethis, you came with receipts.
So From all the informationthat was presented to us, we
believe you Zahara.
So I think Nikhil and I's ideawas just to see if she would
(06:39):
come on the show and kind of belike hey, what's going on?
And she didn't respond to anyof our inquiries.
So there wasn't too much wecould do past that.
But we did reach out to all, toboth her regular marketing site
and when we also looked at her.
Can we just quickly talk abouther resume or whatever that she
(07:01):
has on the marketing site?
It's like she had oneinternship and then all of a
sudden now she's freelance andshe's like working for Coca-Cola
and all these things.
Nicola (07:09):
But not just freelancing , she's a really skilled PR
agency person where it's likeyou had one intern for like a
summer somewhere, and now you'reskilled marketer, all right.
Gina (07:22):
So you got hired by her, alice.
What are the first things thatyou're like?
Hmm, this seems strange.
Nicola (07:30):
Kind of the first red flag.
Let's go with beige flags.
Gina (07:34):
Or pink flags, any pink flags.
Zuhara (07:38):
I think she went all in the first time was the
non-existent accountant, becausewe agreed that the salary would
be paid.
Gina (07:46):
Oh right, I forgot about this.
I love this.
Yes, go ahead.
Zuhara (07:50):
Yeah, we agreed the salary would be paid by a
specific debt.
That was usually by fifth.
So it comes fifth, it's 10thand 10th.
We're almost midway the nextmonth and she's like.
You know, I've talked to theaccountant, he's still putting
something together and all that.
But whenever I actually go tomeet the accountant or even just
get an email randomly from theaccountant, nothing.
(08:11):
So today I still don't know ifthe accountant exists or she was
still the accountant.
But that is when, you know, Istarted seeing the red flag
because two months in you havenot received your salary.
And then she'll come and paymaybe half of it and then maybe
train clear, and then again thenext month is going to be the
same thing.
But you know, here you are,you're working with the clients,
(08:32):
you know they are payingbecause you know there's the
back email confirm receipt ofthe payment and all that.
And then she'll be out like I'mgoing on a vacation.
So most of the time we wererunning the organization as the,
you know, as the employees, andshe'll go have fun and that's
about it.
And then at one point, when Irealized something was not a
(08:52):
hundred percent okay, was Ibrought in a client.
So you know, for the fullpackage.
And one time she was like youknow I don't think I'm happy
with how you guys are handlingmy you know I'm not seeing the
results of what I'm paying forFor PR.
It's there because you know youcan't I can't lie that.
You know I'm publishing stuffand they cannot see it on the
links on the side.
(09:13):
So she was like for PR that onecan be documented, but on this
other side I don't see the valuefor my money.
She actually asked for ameeting for the same.
So I did talk to Catherine andask okay, what's going on?
Is there a disconnect on howwe're doing her campaign?
Because if that's the case, whydon't we try and see how we can
link the you know, pr withsocial media and other marketing
(09:34):
and see how we can best expose,you know, build her brand?
And eventually she pulled out.
You know Catherine made thenext piece like no, she's just,
you know someone else, she's mad, she doesn't know how to
interact with people, so I'll beletting her go.
She won't be renewing thepackage only to come and learn
later that she pulled out.
So that was question marks forme.
(09:55):
And then, months in, one of ourcolleagues resigned and she
hadn't paid her also for likethat month, and that is the
reason she resigned.
But when we asked, you know,she came and started.
Our clients were complainingabout her work.
She's not doing her work well,and it's ironic because the
clients were so happy that theyeven paid her an extra bonus for
(10:17):
the good job she had done forthem.
So that also started raising,you know, the pink, more like
the red flag, but we tried topaint them pink just so that we
can get by.
And then, three months in, she'sover me, over 10,000 USD, and
I'm realizing, okay, this is notgood.
But now, what kept me going forthe remaining part of the
(10:40):
months was I didn't want toleave the clients hanging,
because you can't just wake upand say you know I'm not working
until I get my pay.
And this is somebody you'rehandling, because we directly
talk to the clients every day,so you need to give them an
update, you need to let themknow what, how their account is
doing and all that.
So I gave my notice and toldher I'll be handling each of my
(11:02):
clients until the end of theirtenure and after that, if you
haven't cleared with me, thenthis is it, I'll have to resign.
And she came with the account.
Often she was like you know,when we started this
organization, I overquoted interms of how much I'm supposed
to be paying you guys monthly,and that is why you're not doing
so well.
And I even came up with ideaslike why don't you try and do
(11:24):
this, introduce the retainerpackage so that at least you're
guaranteed every month you havesomething coming in, and then
you can introduce other smallerpackages here for different
clients, so that you can be ableto pull different kinds of
clients to ensure that there isa consistent cash flow.
And if you're like yeah, so ifyou are okay after the once.
And then she was like okay,let's review your contract so
(11:47):
that at the end of this month,if you agree to it, we can
revise how I'll be paying youthe package I'll be earning.
So we agreed that if she clearsmy debt by that time, then I
can consider taking in the newpackage, because that will be a
need and then client basis.
But come that end of the month,nothing happened.
So that's when the rollercoaster began.
Gina (12:12):
Okay, so how did it start the roller coaster?
Zuhara (12:18):
Medially in terms of delay in terms of payments, and
then excuses after excuses.
So once I handed in myresignation later on now, after
fully resigned she was like oneclient is complaining that the
work was not well done and youare solely handling that client.
So this is your fault.
(12:39):
That means I'll have to deductfrom whatever I owe you 1500 USD
to repay that client back.
So the good thing was I pulledup my email you know the email
conversation and the trailerswe've been having with the
client and was like this is myrecommendation to the client.
This is me asking her to give meone, two, three things and,
according to our contract, ifyou're asking for some items
(13:00):
from the client and they do notcommunicate, they cannot
penalize you for that.
And I was consistent in termsof reaching out and whatever
I've been able to work.
This is the report I compile.
Here you go, you can show it tothe client with the same.
But I was like okay, so there'snothing, she's going to
penalize us because we have doneour part in terms of according
(13:21):
to the agreement of the contract, we had the no show clause
where if the client does not getback to you with the
information you need for aspecific period, then once the
contract is done, she cannotthey cannot ask for refund or
you know, an extension forwhatever has not been done here.
So that one, I think I beat herto eat, so she didn't know how
(13:43):
to react and she was like, yeah,yeah, you have a point.
So let's see how it goes.
But I'm working on something,the accountant is working on
some money.
And then a few days rather afew weeks in, I realized I've
been blocked from Slack so Icouldn't contact her through the
Slack channel that we used tocommunicate.
So I switched to email and Iwas like, okay, we have this
(14:03):
amount pending, so when are yougoing to pay me?
And then, come October,november, december, january, in
February, I told her you know,if you're not going to pay, I
think I'll have to take legalaction.
So she went ahead and paid mearound 2000 years Now, leaving a
balance of the 4,200 USD.
So that one, I think, was justto silence me and just like,
yeah, I'm working for theremainder of the amount and then
(14:26):
I'm going to clear it with you.
And then, yeah, we've beenhaving the back and forth.
And then I realized she hasblocked me also on email.
I couldn't contact her becausewhenever I send out the email
and then it will bounce back.
So, yeah, I think my finalemail to her was like you know
what I think, why it has reached, even if you don't get to pay
me, but it's time I go and tellmy story so that people can get
(14:49):
to know the kind of person youare because you have people
working under you.
These people are parents, theyhave kids, they have
responsibilities and they'redoing a full-time job for you.
But you can afford to spendtime or money that you're
earning from the clients they'reworking for to go out on
vacations, but you can't affordto pay them.
So people are either laggingbehind.
Gina (15:11):
How long did you actually work for her and how many of
those months did you actuallyget paid for?
Zuhara (15:18):
I think about a year.
Okay, so, yeah, so she keptdragging, but now what you have
left is a month.
Gina (15:28):
That's how much she owes you now a month worth of back
pay, essentially Okay, so yes,so you mentioned she was going
out on vacations.
When was that happening?
Do you give us an idea ofwithin the timeline, within the
year that you were employedthere?
How often was she going onvacation?
Where was she going?
I need details.
Zuhara (15:50):
Okay, she'll say she's going to work with a client
outside the country, whereverduring the tenure of work, and
then she'll go for like twoweeks, three weeks, come back
and then she's going to adifferent country and then come
back again.
So the others, you could get tosee it from the Facebook post
wherever she's gone or the kindof vacation she's having.
(16:11):
But it is something that I'velearned even recently.
She's still been doing so.
Gina (16:16):
So, yeah, so is her company still like around?
Zuhara (16:21):
Yes, yes, I even saw that I was replaced.
Someone else was hired to fillmy position, so it's still
running.
Nicola (16:30):
I find it weird that it's running because we tried to
reach out obviously quite a loton all of the email addresses
on LinkedIn and we didn't go inwith, hey, we know the secret
about you.
It was more hey, we'd like toconnect.
You're kind of kind of-.
Gina (16:46):
Like we have this podcast, maybe it'll get some I didn't
even say, podcasts.
Nicola (16:50):
I was like, oh, we'd like to talk to you about your
skills in this space, andnothing.
Gina (16:59):
She's probably on vacation .
Zuhara (17:00):
Nicola, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.
But what I also noticed wasduring the time I was working
for her, I landed her some ofthe interview opportunities with
big organizations so that youcan be awarded for the kind of
movement you have in terms of inyour field.
And each time she'll be like Idon't have time to work for it.
(17:20):
So I kind of realized she'savoiding the limelight.
But I thought like, okay, maybeshe has a reason for that.
Now it makes sense.
But then I presume maybe she'stoo busy.
She can handle, she's workingwith clients.
But I realized if this is anopportunity to place you and the
organization out there, whywould you jump on it?
Because one of it, I think, wasan award and she was nominated
(17:44):
for it, yeah, so maybe that'swhen she doesn't reach back out.
Gina (17:49):
Because maybe the house of cards will fall.
Zuhara (17:53):
Oh yeah.
Gina (17:54):
Maybe, Like a lot of these big companies, they require
like certain I mean I'm speakingfrom my industry, but like they
were like, for instance,they'll need like certain audits
before they can do work for you.
So, or work with you, rather,like for me, I work in
manufacturing, so they need tomake sure the factories are ESG,
(18:15):
like socially, environmentally,you know, economically
responsible, all those things.
And I'm wondering if some ofthose big companies would need
the equivalent of that Likemaybe they would need to have
access to like people's workingI don't know their IDs like make
(18:36):
sure everyone's above board,you know, I don't know what that
could be.
Is there anything that you know,of Nicola and like marketing or
PR that would be required.
Nicola (18:45):
No, I'd say probably just a portfolio.
Gina (18:49):
Right, is there a way to vary?
Or even for like big bigcompanies, like, I don't know,
like Coca Cola, you would?
Nicola (18:56):
absolutely like if you're putting in a RFP or like
a tender for a big company, forsure you want to make sure that
you know.
For New Zealand, as an example,if you're putting in an RFP,
you absolutely need to statethat you are meeting all your
legal obligations.
And then the big one, theeffort, work for marketing or
something it would be you know,portfolio or proof that you can
(19:19):
actually do what you say you'redoing.
Gina (19:22):
So here's my thing Maybe and I'm just thinking about this
like it just popped into myhead Maybe she didn't want to
work with these big companiesbecause the expense, the outlay,
even though they're payingsomething right Like the outlay
on the company's part might havebeen too much, too big that you
(19:43):
couldn't afford.
I don't know Maybe it wassomething like that, because
that seems very strange Like ifsomebody came to me, like if
anyone in my industry came to me, it was like, oh, you know,
sephora wants to meet with you.
I'd be like I'm on the nextflight, I don't care.
Nicola (20:00):
I'm choosing a pole.
Let me go, yeah.
Zuhara (20:03):
Yeah, like I would, just be, like I'm on it.
Gina (20:06):
I'll do anything.
Do you need to take an arm anda leg Like yeah?
So that seems very weird thatshe would kind of shy away from
that.
So I'm sure there's something,because there must be something
that we're missing there.
Sure, Okay, so how?
So what was the lastcommunication you had with her?
Zuhara (20:26):
I think it was around that February match.
I can counter check, but afterthat she went silent.
Gina (20:34):
So the payment has been paid.
Zuhara (20:35):
Yeah, yeah, I tried reaching out to the through a
lawyer and she was like you know, there's this close-waft
freelancers can be charginginterest on whatever amount that
is pending, so you can includethat, but it was like that
wasn't on the original contract.
I say and then why don't youjust clear my principle and then
, if you feel like you want topay the interest, you can go
(20:57):
ahead and pay the interest,because I'm not even pushing for
interest, I'm just asking foryou just want for the money that
you worked for.
Gina (21:04):
Yeah.
Nicola (21:04):
Right, yeah, which makes sense.
So after that, that's justlogic.
Gina (21:10):
Right, and it's like if, exactly, you are actually being
very gracious, like I would havebeen.
Like, pay me my money and payme 15% interest you, horrible
bitch.
Nicola (21:19):
Like, like I would be like, it's just like you just,
you just do you boo, pay me whenyou can.
Gina (21:28):
No, I mean, I don't.
That's the thing.
Like if someone like tries to Fwith my money, like I get mm-mm
, like I get real, like you'reway more gracious and generous
than I would ever be.
So did the lawyer reach out toher?
Zuhara (21:43):
Yeah, she did.
And then she she sent him thesame same close about.
You know she can start charginginterest and then if it accrues
for, I think, around threeyears, then I don't know what
happens.
I didn't even go through thatBecause what I told her was like
no, we don't need you to payeverything else.
All you want is for you just tosettle the principal pending
(22:05):
amount and then the lawyer's fee, which is just a hundred USD
for the band letter.
Yeah.
Gina (22:11):
And so is the lawyer still in contact with her.
Zuhara (22:15):
No, she went to the silent and was like okay, just
chill, let me do research andsee what else, how else we can
do.
Because what I realized was ifI was to press charges from my
end, even if I was to win thecase, I'll be forced to still
travel to Australia to be ableto whether it's to auction any
of her things, to be able torecover the money.
So it wouldn't have madefinancial sense at that point.
Gina (22:38):
Right, and that's like do you know she only hires like
from Kenya area or where is shefrom?
No, actually the majority arefrom Philippines.
Zuhara (22:52):
Majority are from.
Gina (22:53):
Philippines.
That's cheap labor.
That is cheap labor.
That's why that's fucked up.
What is she doing?
Okay, carry on.
Zuhara (23:05):
So I think it was the only Kenyan then, and then the
rest were from Philippine andherself, but from the new set of
people, so I think the PRladies from Australia like her.
And then there were two newrecruits, I guess from Stess or
something, I'm not sure.
Gina (23:21):
Okay, so that gives me like a little bit of a red flag
because, like everyone's remote,everyone's in a different
country, she probably doesn'thave any idea what those
countries employment laws arelike, and it's harder.
Nicola (23:37):
She's from Australia.
The employment law in Australiais very robust.
It's like ours, even forfreelancers or contractors, like
it's very specific.
So if you are employing peoplefrom overseas, you would have to
meet certain requirements inAustralia.
Zuhara (23:57):
So I think she's striving for the fact that we
don't know that information,because I'm in Kenya, so
whatever I'm doing, it would bebased on what will our load do,
and all that.
Gina (24:08):
And then the contract is time, right because you're
familiar with your legal systemin your country same with the
Philippines.
So like I would never know that, what Nicola just said, I would
never have known that.
I didn't know it before thismoment.
I just know it now.
So that's my point.
I think she's probably doingthis because it's like a
(24:30):
workaround, it's like a loopholekind of.
Zuhara (24:36):
So she can get away with whatever it is that she's
getting away with, yeah go ahead.
And I think when it came inagain, there's another face of
you know employees who had leftand majority of them have been
complaining.
You know there's been delay ofsalary and then when you ask for
the salary, you're a bad person.
You haven't been doing yourwork well.
There's always something toaccuse you so that you look like
(24:56):
the bad person in the end.
Gina (24:59):
Mm-hmm.
Nicola (25:02):
That's wild daughter, yeah.
Gina (25:05):
Yeah, okay.
So amidst all of this, youdropped a nice little bombshell
about culture cure.
Can you explain what culture?
Care is and why it is laughablethat this person also I think
she had like a 20-minute YouTubevideo that was like seen by
seven people, something likethat.
(25:26):
Right, nicola Mm-hmm For this.
Okay, so explain culture, cureand how you found out about it,
and then Nicola and I will startlaughing.
Zuhara (25:37):
So my parents started coming in for the first time
when she paid.
So it was under the culturecure and she told us you know, I
rent this agency where I'vebeen training organizations on
how to handle their employees,how they should treat their
employees and sure they belonghow they're supposed to be paid
on time and all that.
Gina (25:56):
you know everything to keep saying I'm losing my shit
right now.
Okay, go ahead.
Zuhara (26:01):
Go ahead.
Yeah, so I don't remember whenI was asking, or I was like I
remember you told me you'd be.
Gina (26:11):
We're just getting into the good parts.
I love your primary colorjumper.
It's like such a school teacher.
It's my hide jumper.
I love it.
Nicola (26:22):
They're so cheerful because I'm at the office today.
Zuhara (26:25):
Training organizations of these.
Nicola (26:26):
So when you're frozen, you're sorry.
Gina (26:35):
Okay, so you were explaining what culture cure
supposedly does.
She's supposedly teaching othercompanies how to run a company
properly.
Meanwhile, her only realexperience in corporate whatever
corporate marketing has been Ibelieve it was one internship
that we know for sure.
So I'm just going to say it'sclear.
(26:58):
Okay, and do you so you startgetting paid from there.
Zuhara (27:03):
Yeah.
Gina (27:05):
So from culture.
So she starts.
She explains to you whatculture cure is.
Zuhara (27:10):
Okay, then what happens?
And then that's that is thesame receipt and I think
addresses have been.
We've been receiving our paysfrom when these starts are
happening, you know you're notearning anything and they
delaying the salary, and whenyou try and raise it up, or when
somebody designs the bad people.
So I was like, okay, you sayyou're training organizations on
(27:33):
how they're supposed to treatthe employees.
How come you're not practicingthe same with the organization?
Because I mean, you should be aliving example If you know so
well when you're delayingsalaries is going to affect
these people you've taken,especially those who are mothers
.
You should be the last personyou know practicing that.
And she's like no, you know,it's not that, it's just the
(27:54):
accountant.
I've been trying to balance.
Gina (27:57):
Oh, the accountant who probably didn't exist.
Zuhara (28:01):
The ghost accountant.
Nicola (28:04):
But not only that, like Nosez On the website they have
like a manifesto on likebehavior and like a manifesto on
how best to treat their ownemployees Right.
Remember we went through themanifesto we did and we were
like this is wild, because nowshe's taken the time to write
(28:25):
this bullshit and doesn't evenfollow any of us.
Gina (28:29):
So my question is did we ever find out if she had any
actual clients for culture care?
Like what happened there?
Because, how?
Because my here's my line ofthinking if you're getting paid
from an organization that I it'slike it's it's not for profit
(28:50):
or it is for profit, it's forprofit organization, okay, I'm
wondering because it's likeunder this like I don't know
weird, in a weird niche, likemaybe there was a tax benefit to
getting paid through anorganization like that.
Like maybe it's it's not likean S corp or an LLC, it's, you
know, one of the otherformations that you know there
(29:14):
could potentially be some sortof money savings via taxes, like
because I know if you're like,you know, if you're a nonprofit,
you have special, there arespecial things that you are able
to do in term because you'renot for profit, you have, like
tax break.
So I'm wondering you know, Idon't know the laws in Australia
(29:35):
, but I'm wondering if that'swhy it was happening, and I
would love to know who theclients were for culture care,
because, based on that website,it was very I don't think it was
like updated since like 2018 or2019.
Right, yeah.
And it looked like it was justlike cut and pasted from other
things.
Nicola (29:53):
That's true.
Gina (29:55):
Yeah, like she probably Googled, like best practice and
workplace, and like, just like,copied the text and changed a
few words and you know, okay so,culture, care, the irony, okay.
So then what happens?
Zuhara (30:14):
No, she just, you know, rubbish that off.
And she was like the accountantbalancing clients not paying.
So the excuses kept going onand on and I was like, okay,
enough is enough.
Gina (30:28):
Okay, so at this point, has any of your other like
fellow colleagues from your timeworking there?
Has any of them reached out toyou?
Has there been any other likeinformation that was gathered
from I don't know?
Just it seems like you're kindof keeping tabs on her.
So has there been any kind ofadditional information that you
(30:52):
found out after the fact?
Zuhara (30:55):
I think before then I just realized she was.
She was still going on thefrequent vacations and that
clients have been paying, so shejust wasn't paying me.
That is the only thing that wasgoing on.
But we realized one of thosecolleagues that I used to talk
to, you know, I couldn't reach.
I think she had blocked me orsomething.
So I realized maybe it's her orshe got the directive.
(31:16):
You know you need to cut linkswith her if you want to stay in
this organization.
So I understood that.
Gina (31:23):
So, as far as you know, were you the only employee who
didn't get paid for time worked.
Zuhara (31:32):
As of now.
I think so because those whoare left behind they say there's
been, you know the delays, butI don't know if they eventually
got paid or not.
Because I couldn't reach them,oh yeah.
Gina (31:43):
Right, of course, Because this is so bizarre.
All right, Nicola.
What are your thoughts?
Nicola (31:48):
I just think, like you know, I think it's so curious
because you know we've seen theemails right and it's just so
like all the emails are soexcusing, like there's always
something that is out of mycontrol and this is the reason I
can't meet you, but there'snever really any concrete reason
(32:10):
as to why she's not meetingthose contractual obligations,
which I find really weird.
And then also, I find it reallyweird that, you know, I think
for me, my, probably my biggestred flag is the fact that she
has gone just from thisinternship and opened this
business and is, I wonder, ifyou know, there's kind of
(32:33):
circles all the way back, ginato write the famous phrase right
at the very beginning.
But I actually wonder if maybeshe's immature in her
understanding of how businessworks and doesn't actually
understand that her behaviorimpacts others.
Yet I don't know if she's atthat point in her career.
(32:55):
How old is she?
Zuhara (32:58):
I don't know, I think she's in her late twenties.
Oh God, yeah.
Should be late twenties at the30s, yeah.
Gina (33:07):
No, no one should be owning a company in your late
twenties.
I, one of my first.
I I did.
I actually started my company,my first company, when I was
around the same age and Icompletely mismanaged it.
I like that was 100% my doing.
I didn't have any employees, soit only ended up affecting like
(33:28):
me.
But I but I also learned fromit.
I was like, okay, if I go intobusiness for myself or create
something else, I'm going tohave to learn from these stupid
things that I did.
Like I just I had no idea howto like do a proper accounting.
I you know, it was just therewas, you know.
So now we have an outsideaccountant.
(33:49):
So it's like that actually doesexist.
Zuhara (33:54):
It's true, it's true, I can give you information.
Nicola (33:57):
At least you made up her name and you're just like from
her email address.
Gina (34:02):
Me.
Yeah, I read an article notgoing to lie, I read an article
not that long ago that people,people in positions that are
like you know, I don't know,maybe higher up, maybe middle
tier, will create their ownassistant.
And it's really just them.
And so they'll like callrestaurants and they'll be like
(34:24):
yes, I am making a reservationfor Mr Smith and he must come in
and like they're a lot bitchier, and then they get shit done.
But it's really this, it'sreally them, and I was like
that's amazing, I should startdoing that.
Nicola (34:37):
So on board.
Oh my God, what would youassist in?
Gina (34:43):
I don't know, I don't know .
I would have to really thinkabout it because, like it would
have to be something like unique.
Nicola (34:52):
So okay.
So my like, if I'm going togive a fake name, like you know,
when you go to a house and youlook at a house and they're like
write your name down to showyou at the house, I always get
Sarah Summers All right, allright, I like it.
Gina (35:07):
So your fake assistant would be Sarah Summers.
Nicola (35:10):
Absolutely she would be.
If you're getting an email fromSarah Summers, know that it's
me, that's you.
Unless this is Sarah Summerswho wants to be my assistant, I
won't pay you.
Gina (35:23):
I love Sarah Summers.
Nicola (35:27):
Okay, Zuhara, what would your assistant's name be?
Gina (35:29):
Yeah, what would your fake assistant be I think I'd go
with Susan.
Zuhara (35:32):
Susan, they get things done, hello.
Gina (35:37):
It would.
Mine would be Karen.
Mine would be Karen.
Yeah, Because Karen would belike you clearly can't handle
this problem, so I'm going tohave to speak to your supervisor
.
Nicola (35:49):
Sorry.
Gina (35:49):
All right, so wait, so we?
I truly don't believe theaccountant existed.
I don't Because even for me,like my first company, I didn't
know what I was doing and Ididn't, I was not even wise
enough to fake an accountant.
Also, this was like 20, no,2008 maybe, so I don't think
(36:11):
like anyone was so savvy yetwith, like you know.
Zuhara (36:15):
Anyway, but I remember when one of the clients was
venting and she was like youknow, she, I think she took the
time and decided to go to socialmedia and see what you have
done.
And she was like if you own theorganization and you don't even
have a you know, social mediaaccount, so how are you going to
(36:36):
do marketing for someone elsewhen you cannot even manage your
own?
Even the company didn't have asocial media profile and all
that.
Gina (36:46):
What wait?
Hold on.
Yeah, Let me just rewind.
So you're saying, just to beclear for the people in the back
, you're saying she was insocial media and like marketing
management, and not only did thecompany, did culture here have
an Instagram presence.
No, I don't see one, so none ofher companies actually have an
(37:09):
Instagram presence and they'renot doing any, so how did?
You get new clients.
I'm so confused.
Yeah, where are these clients?
Nicola (37:17):
I don't know.
Zuhara (37:20):
I don't know if she reached out from a previous
contact or something.
Yeah, we are falling outbecause for the LinkedIn profile
, for the catalyst brandstrategy, I'm the one who
created it and started managingit.
So where I dropped off, that'swhere everything stopped.
Gina (37:40):
Okay.
So yeah, as of now, what do youhope to have happen with this
situation?
What is your biggest hope?
I mean, of course, you wouldlike to be paid, but do you feel
like you're actually going toget paid?
Zuhara (37:57):
Honestly, I don't know, but I think from what I know is
I've learned a lot from thiswhole experience, because right
now, if somebody is sending meout a contract, I need to see,
you know the whole process,because with I just had the
interview, here's the contract,let's start working.
So it was all that at once.
I didn't take time to realizeokay, you know, we don't have HR
(38:20):
in this organization and I'venever met the accountant and we
don't do regular companymeetings just to update the
internal kind of meetings,because most of the meetings
were we meeting the clients andthen maybe updates in terms of
this and that.
And I remember we were given aChristmas bonus of $10.
(38:43):
$10?
Yeah, I think they're about.
It was less than $100 actually.
Gina (38:52):
I feel like.
I don't even want it.
At this point I'd be like thisis insulting.
I don't even want it, Wow.
Zuhara (39:00):
Yeah.
Gina (39:01):
Okay, cool, cool cool.
That's terrible.
So at this point I don't know,nicola, do you think she's going
to get paid?
I don't.
I don't think you're going toget paid at this point.
Zuhara (39:15):
I'm actually.
I've reached out to anAustralian debt collecting
company, so I'll be talking withthem tomorrow.
Gina (39:22):
Yeah, so I wanted to see how that's going.
Okay, but my feeling is if shehas the balls to ignore a lawyer
and to just cut you completelyout, she's whatever.
Whatever these debt, becauseeven debt collectors and it's
not like back in the day when,like the debt collector would go
to your door and be like giveme the fucking money, like it's
(39:43):
all done, you know, virtuallybasically.
So there's really not muchunless you're like getting
involved with like the mafia,like they're not, they're not
going to make house call.
You know they might call youincessantly or bug you
incessantly, but if she has nointention of paying unless
there's something differentgoing on in Australia, she's not
(40:06):
going to pay.
Zuhara (40:07):
So they say something like they'll have her listed and
then maybe her credit scorewill go down or something.
So most businesses don't wantthat.
Gina (40:16):
Yeah, I mean we'll see.
I'd be very interested.
I just feel like her creditscore is probably garbage anyway
, considering how she managesmoney.
So what's another hit on creditscore?
It's like garbage, less garbage.
It's like I think so I think,like, like my wish for you is
(40:38):
just that people become peoplehear your story and they're wary
of this.
Like I do think, post COVID andduring COVID, all of this
remote work from all over theplace brings its own host of
issues like this, like what isthe idea?
And so it seems kind of crazy,like that it's being used, that
(41:03):
like it's kind of like I justfeel like there's so many other
issues that that brings, youknow, just being remote and
various different, you know justvarious countries involved.
Like Nicola, you had that issuewith our company, like we
(41:24):
didn't, we didn't know underwhose jerk jurisdiction, like
your employment contract waseven, you know, like it
definitely was New.
Zealand, so I should haveactually found that out later,
yeah, so it's like I just feellike working remotely, having
these issues are, like they'regoing to be more prevalent, so I
(41:45):
hope that people hear yourstory and that they could
safeguard themselves from this,because you were basically doing
free labor.
Zuhara (41:53):
Yeah right.
Gina (41:54):
She wasn't even like buying you lunch or anything
like free labor, so it's like.
It's like yeah, so what do youthink, nicola?
What do you think the takeawayhere is for everyone?
Nicola (42:08):
I think the takeaway here is you know, make sure you
keep receipts, check your, checkyour contractual obligations
from both parties, not just oneside.
I think you know, unfortunately, sometimes, unless you fight
really hard, sometimes it justdoesn't.
You know, sometimes it justdoesn't go to plan.
(42:33):
I guess, like this is this isone of the most horrible, awful
stories.
Gina (42:39):
Because it's like so overt it's not even like I feel like
like I didn't feel like like insome of the other toxic
workplaces like that.
It's much more subtle, it'smore like they work on your
psyche, whereas this is justoutright like fuck you, I'm not
paying you.
You know what I mean.
Zuhara (43:00):
Yeah.
Gina (43:05):
Okay.
So if you could do it all overagain, what would you do
differently?
Zuhara (43:12):
Honestly, I'll take a closer look at the company, you
know, do some little research,some back on research.
Yeah.
Nicola (43:19):
I'm so glad that you're going to the death collector.
I'm curious to know whathappens.
Keep us updated.
Yeah, who will?
Yeah, let us know, becauseobviously we've got an interest
in this now, right?
So, yeah, I'd be curious toknow how it all plays out.
(43:40):
But it's been going on for solong, like you've been having
these challenges for so long,and that's you know that's
stressful on your mental healthand your well being as well.
You know it's not even likefinancially, like park that for
a second, but it's degrading onyour mental health and your well
being.
Gina (44:02):
Yeah.
Nicola (44:02):
I'm sorry this happened to you.
Gina (44:06):
I think maybe people would also want to know, like are you
currently working?
How are you getting jobs?
Are you still working freelance?
Like give us a little infoabout that.
Zuhara (44:17):
Yeah, I'm actually still working freelance mentally on
LinkedIn and then on Indeed.
That's where I get most of theclients from.
But I can say my new employer Idid the due diligence and the
whole process is obvious thatthese are people who know what
they're doing.
You know, you had the HR, youhad the onboarding process, we
(44:37):
had all that lined out, right,yeah.
Gina (44:41):
I mean that not to say that bigger companies are better
, but there are hopefully alittle more checks and balances.
When it's a small company, youknow it's somebody.
They may not have all of that,the ability to do that.
You know, like for me, like inmy business, it's like I'm HR,
I'm also like I do, I do a lotof things but mainly like for me
(45:06):
, I let, I have my, I haveemployees that I just kind of
let them do their thing.
I try not to get involvedbecause it's like if I knew how
to do what they were doing, thenI'd be doing it and clearly I
don't.
So any input from me is going tobe like you know, I stick to
what I'm good at and that's itStick to your wheelhouse.
Yeah, exactly, all right.
(45:27):
Well, this has been aninteresting chat.
I'm sorry we couldn't get herto join.
The invitation will stand ifshe ever wants to come on and
talk about her company.
Nicola (45:39):
So that would be lovely.
Gina (45:41):
We would like it.
I would like to know kind ofwhere culture here, where that
idea came from.
Okay, it would be interesting.
Hit us up if you're listeningto this, which I'm sure you're
not, because you probablypreemptively blocked us.
Catherine, like she's, she'slike the blocking queen.
She's probably blocked us justafter we even just said hey, we
(46:03):
want to talk to you aboutculture.
Her, like you, suspicious block.
Nicola (46:13):
Well, we can people find you to her if they want to, if
they want to recruit you in aswell.
Where can people find you?
Zuhara (46:20):
on LinkedIn as the Zuhura Miriam, I think I'll
share the link with you.
Nicola (46:26):
Okay, sounds good, and we will put it in the show notes
as well, so people can comelooking for you.
Zuhara (46:32):
Awesome.
Thank you so much and it's beena great chat and I'm knows
anything about this woman Also,let us know.
Nicola (46:41):
Oh, yes, that would be if anyone here has one of my
employees.
Gina (46:46):
Yeah, former employees, anyone.
If it reaches them.
You never know who's gonnalisten to us.
Crazies, Please reach out.
We would love to hear more.
Nicola (46:57):
And I think as like a closing remark, if, if heaven
forbid she were to be listeningtoday, what would you like to
say to her?
Zuhara (47:09):
Just keep your word.
I mean a word should representwho you are, because it can be
low, destroy you at the sametime.
So, nicola, do we just want to jump right in, or let's?
Nicola (00:05):
jump straight in Zuhara.
Do you want to introduceyourself and give us a little
bit of information about whatindustry you work in, a little
bit of information around you,know kind of where you are,
because you're not anywhere inour locations in the world.
Zuhara (00:21):
Sure, so I'm Zuhara Miriam.
I'm a marketing and PR expert.
I've been working as afreelancer for over five years
now and at the moment I'mworking with Autapair.
I'm based in Kenya.
Gina (00:37):
Okay, so can you give us sort of like an idea of what
your day-to-day tasks typicallyare in your position, so that
when you tell us your story wekind of might be able to
understand it a little bitbetter?
Zuhara (00:53):
Sure.
So basically, as a PR person,we working with the agency, we
have different clientele, so weget to understand the clientele,
build their bios for them andthen create different kind of
pitches that can be able to havethem as an industry authority
spokespeople in their particularniche market so that it can be
(01:15):
able to help, you know, placethe brand in front of a lot of
other people and also help topropel their brand and also, you
know, build sales.
So basically it's likemarketing but in a wider
spectrum.
Gina (01:29):
Okay.
So how did you?
We know which job you're gonnatalk about, but our listeners
don't.
So can you tell us how you kindof came across the position,
how it was presented to you,Give us a little background on
this particular job that you'regonna take us through?
Zuhara (01:48):
So I met her through the freelancers platform that was
Freya and then we startedworking until the project ended.
After that, she approached melater on and she was like you
know, I'm putting a teamtogether so that I can be able
to come up with this agency andwork it on a broader, you know,
(02:08):
prospect.
And then she was targetingwomen because she wanted it to
be a women-led kind of organizedagency working with different
women as well.
So that is how I came to get toknow her.
So once she approached me, wedid a contract with her and I
was like okay, this looks likean amazing opportunity and also
the intention is good, so I'dlike to be part of the team.
(02:29):
And that's how we startedworking together.
Gina (02:32):
So what was your?
Do you have an employmentagreement or a contract or
anything like that?
Zuhara (02:40):
Yes, yes, we did.
I was working as her peermanager full-time.
Nicola (02:44):
Yeah, Okay and like and I don't wanna jump ahead, but we
know that things go pear shaped.
So I'm curious to know when yougot the employment contract to
sign, were there any like weirdclauses or anything in there
that kind of stuck out to you asmaybe a red flag at the time?
Gina (03:06):
Or.
Zuhara (03:07):
Not really.
Gina (03:08):
Sidebar.
Did you not even read it fully,like I probably would not have.
I probably just been likesigned, whatever, yeah.
Zuhara (03:15):
Yeah, actually I did read it, not with an angle of
something was going to go wrongin future, so I did read it just
to see the kind of jobdescription I have, the number
of hours I'll be working andthat the amount we have agreed
as payment has been capturedcorrectly.
Gina (03:32):
So there was nothing that you were like, hmm, that sounds
weird, and then never askedabout it or or just was able to
kind of explain it away in yourown head, cause I feel like
that's what happens in toxicworkplaces.
You're like they probably don'tmean that, cause that sounds
insane.
And then you're like, oh,they're like fast forward six
months and you're like, wait,they did mean that they are
(03:53):
insane.
Zuhara (03:56):
No, basically I think she pulled it from somewhere and
just put it together, soeverything seemed to flow at
that particular time.
Remember, this is somebody alsohas been working with
organizations in terms ofemployee culture and all that.
So I'm assuming.
Gina (04:10):
So Nicola and I kind of did a little bit of a I wouldn't
say the deep dive, but we gotcurious after we first talked to
you.
Are we allowed to say her nameor her organization?
Yes, yeah.
Wasn't her name CatherineCatherine.
Zuhara (04:27):
Yeah, it is Catherine.
12 minutes yeah.
Nicola (04:30):
Okay, cause when we went on the website it was really
weird, like everything was weird, and we did our best effort to
try and contact her.
We contacted her through themain website linked in, and then
also.
Gina (04:49):
And then her other thing which I can't wait for us to get
to the culture.
What is it called again?
Zuhara (04:56):
Culture cure, culture cure, culture cure.
Gina (04:58):
Okay, so I can't wait for us to get into that, but we did
reach out to her cause.
We wanted to hear her side.
Maybe sometimes the truth is inthe middle somewhere, but I
don't know if we necessarilybelieve that.
But I think we're on your side.
But I think we just wanted tokind of get an idea of like why
(05:18):
would you do this?
Like I don't want to give toomuch away, but like if it was
something serious, like thecompany's going bankrupt or yeah
, or something like Like justtell your employees be like, I
fucked up, I accidentally likeyou couldn't paint it however
you want, but just be honestabout it.
Like you would have been pissedbut you would have been like at
(05:41):
least they told me that thiswas happening, you know.
Zuhara (05:45):
You know like, but then we had this B to labin, because
you can't tell your employeesthat you know I'm broke, we're
bankrupt and you're takingvacations and clients are clean.
We're going to get to that.
We're going to get to that, I'mgoing to get there.
Gina (05:59):
Yeah, but I think what Nikhil and I were we were A, we
were, I think part of us werelike maybe we can like ambush
her and she'll have to come upwith something.
Nicola (06:11):
Maybe she comes up with some of the money she always you
.
Spoiler alert.
Gina (06:14):
Yeah.
So basically this woman and weare going to get into it ends up
not paying you for your work.
That has been clearlydocumented.
Like you came with receipts.
Like you didn't just allegethis, you came with receipts.
So From all the informationthat was presented to us, we
believe you Zahara.
So I think Nikhil and I's ideawas just to see if she would
(06:39):
come on the show and kind of belike hey, what's going on?
And she didn't respond to anyof our inquiries.
So there wasn't too much wecould do past that.
But we did reach out to all, toboth her regular marketing site
and when we also looked at her.
Can we just quickly talk abouther resume or whatever that she
(07:01):
has on the marketing site?
It's like she had oneinternship and then all of a
sudden now she's freelance andshe's like working for Coca-Cola
and all these things.
Nicola (07:09):
But not just freelancing , she's a really skilled PR
agency person where it's likeyou had one intern for like a
summer somewhere, and now you'reskilled marketer, all right.
Gina (07:22):
So you got hired by her, alice.
What are the first things thatyou're like?
Hmm, this seems strange.
Nicola (07:30):
Kind of the first red flag.
Let's go with beige flags.
Gina (07:34):
Or pink flags, any pink flags.
Zuhara (07:38):
I think she went all in the first time was the
non-existent accountant, becausewe agreed that the salary would
be paid.
Gina (07:46):
Oh right, I forgot about this.
I love this.
Yes, go ahead.
Zuhara (07:50):
Yeah, we agreed the salary would be paid by a
specific debt.
That was usually by fifth.
So it comes fifth, it's 10thand 10th.
We're almost midway the nextmonth and she's like.
You know, I've talked to theaccountant, he's still putting
something together and all that.
But whenever I actually go tomeet the accountant or even just
get an email randomly from theaccountant, nothing.
(08:11):
So today I still don't know ifthe accountant exists or she was
still the accountant.
But that is when, you know, Istarted seeing the red flag
because two months in you havenot received your salary.
And then she'll come and paymaybe half of it and then maybe
train clear, and then again thenext month is going to be the
same thing.
But you know, here you are,you're working with the clients,
(08:32):
you know they are payingbecause you know there's the
back email confirm receipt ofthe payment and all that.
And then she'll be out like I'mgoing on a vacation.
So most of the time we wererunning the organization as the,
you know, as the employees, andshe'll go have fun and that's
about it.
And then at one point, when Irealized something was not a
(08:52):
hundred percent okay, was Ibrought in a client.
So you know, for the fullpackage.
And one time she was like youknow I don't think I'm happy
with how you guys are handlingmy you know I'm not seeing the
results of what I'm paying forFor PR.
It's there because you know youcan't I can't lie that.
You know I'm publishing stuffand they cannot see it on the
links on the side.
(09:13):
So she was like for PR that onecan be documented, but on this
other side I don't see the valuefor my money.
She actually asked for ameeting for the same.
So I did talk to Catherine andask okay, what's going on?
Is there a disconnect on howwe're doing her campaign?
Because if that's the case, whydon't we try and see how we can
link the you know, pr withsocial media and other marketing
(09:34):
and see how we can best expose,you know, build her brand?
And eventually she pulled out.
You know Catherine made thenext piece like no, she's just,
you know someone else, she's mad, she doesn't know how to
interact with people, so I'll beletting her go.
She won't be renewing thepackage only to come and learn
later that she pulled out.
So that was question marks forme.
(09:55):
And then, months in, one of ourcolleagues resigned and she
hadn't paid her also for likethat month, and that is the
reason she resigned.
But when we asked, you know,she came and started.
Our clients were complainingabout her work.
She's not doing her work well,and it's ironic because the
clients were so happy that theyeven paid her an extra bonus for
(10:17):
the good job she had done forthem.
So that also started raising,you know, the pink, more like
the red flag, but we tried topaint them pink just so that we
can get by.
And then, three months in, she'sover me, over 10,000 USD, and
I'm realizing, okay, this is notgood.
But now, what kept me going forthe remaining part of the
(10:40):
months was I didn't want toleave the clients hanging,
because you can't just wake upand say you know I'm not working
until I get my pay.
And this is somebody you'rehandling, because we directly
talk to the clients every day,so you need to give them an
update, you need to let themknow what, how their account is
doing and all that.
So I gave my notice and toldher I'll be handling each of my
(11:02):
clients until the end of theirtenure and after that, if you
haven't cleared with me, thenthis is it, I'll have to resign.
And she came with the account.
Often she was like you know,when we started this
organization, I overquoted interms of how much I'm supposed
to be paying you guys monthly,and that is why you're not doing
so well.
And I even came up with ideaslike why don't you try and do
(11:24):
this, introduce the retainerpackage so that at least you're
guaranteed every month you havesomething coming in, and then
you can introduce other smallerpackages here for different
clients, so that you can be ableto pull different kinds of
clients to ensure that there isa consistent cash flow.
And if you're like yeah, so ifyou are okay after the once.
And then she was like okay,let's review your contract so
(11:47):
that at the end of this month,if you agree to it, we can
revise how I'll be paying youthe package I'll be earning.
So we agreed that if she clearsmy debt by that time, then I
can consider taking in the newpackage, because that will be a
need and then client basis.
But come that end of the month,nothing happened.
So that's when the rollercoaster began.
Gina (12:12):
Okay, so how did it start the roller coaster?
Zuhara (12:18):
Medially in terms of delay in terms of payments, and
then excuses after excuses.
So once I handed in myresignation later on now, after
fully resigned she was like oneclient is complaining that the
work was not well done and youare solely handling that client.
So this is your fault.
(12:39):
That means I'll have to deductfrom whatever I owe you 1500 USD
to repay that client back.
So the good thing was I pulledup my email you know the email
conversation and the trailerswe've been having with the
client and was like this is myrecommendation to the client.
This is me asking her to give meone, two, three things and,
according to our contract, ifyou're asking for some items
(13:00):
from the client and they do notcommunicate, they cannot
penalize you for that.
And I was consistent in termsof reaching out and whatever
I've been able to work.
This is the report I compile.
Here you go, you can show it tothe client with the same.
But I was like okay, so there'snothing, she's going to
penalize us because we have doneour part in terms of according
(13:21):
to the agreement of the contract, we had the no show clause
where if the client does not getback to you with the
information you need for aspecific period, then once the
contract is done, she cannotthey cannot ask for refund or
you know, an extension forwhatever has not been done here.
So that one, I think I beat herto eat, so she didn't know how
(13:43):
to react and she was like, yeah,yeah, you have a point.
So let's see how it goes.
But I'm working on something,the accountant is working on
some money.
And then a few days rather afew weeks in, I realized I've
been blocked from Slack so Icouldn't contact her through the
Slack channel that we used tocommunicate.
So I switched to email and Iwas like, okay, we have this
(14:03):
amount pending, so when are yougoing to pay me?
And then, come October,november, december, january, in
February, I told her you know,if you're not going to pay, I
think I'll have to take legalaction.
So she went ahead and paid mearound 2000 years Now, leaving a
balance of the 4,200 USD.
So that one, I think, was justto silence me and just like,
yeah, I'm working for theremainder of the amount and then
(14:26):
I'm going to clear it with you.
And then, yeah, we've beenhaving the back and forth.
And then I realized she hasblocked me also on email.
I couldn't contact her becausewhenever I send out the email
and then it will bounce back.
So, yeah, I think my finalemail to her was like you know
what I think, why it has reached, even if you don't get to pay
me, but it's time I go and tellmy story so that people can get
(14:49):
to know the kind of person youare because you have people
working under you.
These people are parents, theyhave kids, they have
responsibilities and they'redoing a full-time job for you.
But you can afford to spendtime or money that you're
earning from the clients they'reworking for to go out on
vacations, but you can't affordto pay them.
So people are either laggingbehind.
Gina (15:11):
How long did you actually work for her and how many of
those months did you actuallyget paid for?
Zuhara (15:18):
I think about a year.
Okay, so, yeah, so she keptdragging, but now what you have
left is a month.
Gina (15:28):
That's how much she owes you now a month worth of back
pay, essentially Okay, so yes,so you mentioned she was going
out on vacations.
When was that happening?
Do you give us an idea ofwithin the timeline, within the
year that you were employedthere?
How often was she going onvacation?
Where was she going?
I need details.
Zuhara (15:50):
Okay, she'll say she's going to work with a client
outside the country, whereverduring the tenure of work, and
then she'll go for like twoweeks, three weeks, come back
and then she's going to adifferent country and then come
back again.
So the others, you could get tosee it from the Facebook post
wherever she's gone or the kindof vacation she's having.
(16:11):
But it is something that I'velearned even recently.
She's still been doing so.
Gina (16:16):
So, yeah, so is her company still like around?
Zuhara (16:21):
Yes, yes, I even saw that I was replaced.
Someone else was hired to fillmy position, so it's still
running.
Nicola (16:30):
I find it weird that it's running because we tried to
reach out obviously quite a loton all of the email addresses
on LinkedIn and we didn't go inwith, hey, we know the secret
about you.
It was more hey, we'd like toconnect.
You're kind of kind of-.
Gina (16:46):
Like we have this podcast, maybe it'll get some I didn't
even say, podcasts.
Nicola (16:50):
I was like, oh, we'd like to talk to you about your
skills in this space, andnothing.
Gina (16:59):
She's probably on vacation .
Zuhara (17:00):
Nicola, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.
But what I also noticed wasduring the time I was working
for her, I landed her some ofthe interview opportunities with
big organizations so that youcan be awarded for the kind of
movement you have in terms of inyour field.
And each time she'll be like Idon't have time to work for it.
(17:20):
So I kind of realized she'savoiding the limelight.
But I thought like, okay, maybeshe has a reason for that.
Now it makes sense.
But then I presume maybe she'stoo busy.
She can handle, she's workingwith clients.
But I realized if this is anopportunity to place you and the
organization out there, whywould you jump on it?
Because one of it, I think, wasan award and she was nominated
(17:44):
for it, yeah, so maybe that'swhen she doesn't reach back out.
Gina (17:49):
Because maybe the house of cards will fall.
Zuhara (17:53):
Oh yeah.
Gina (17:54):
Maybe, Like a lot of these big companies, they require
like certain I mean I'm speakingfrom my industry, but like they
were like, for instance,they'll need like certain audits
before they can do work for you.
So, or work with you, rather,like for me, I work in
manufacturing, so they need tomake sure the factories are ESG,
(18:15):
like socially, environmentally,you know, economically
responsible, all those things.
And I'm wondering if some ofthose big companies would need
the equivalent of that Likemaybe they would need to have
access to like people's workingI don't know their IDs like make
(18:36):
sure everyone's above board,you know, I don't know what that
could be.
Is there anything that you know,of Nicola and like marketing or
PR that would be required.
Nicola (18:45):
No, I'd say probably just a portfolio.
Gina (18:49):
Right, is there a way to vary?
Or even for like big bigcompanies, like, I don't know,
like Coca Cola, you would?
Nicola (18:56):
absolutely like if you're putting in a RFP or like
a tender for a big company, forsure you want to make sure that
you know.
For New Zealand, as an example,if you're putting in an RFP,
you absolutely need to statethat you are meeting all your
legal obligations.
And then the big one, theeffort, work for marketing or
something it would be you know,portfolio or proof that you can
(19:19):
actually do what you say you'redoing.
Gina (19:22):
So here's my thing Maybe and I'm just thinking about this
like it just popped into myhead Maybe she didn't want to
work with these big companiesbecause the expense, the outlay,
even though they're payingsomething right Like the outlay
on the company's part might havebeen too much, too big that you
(19:43):
couldn't afford.
I don't know Maybe it wassomething like that, because
that seems very strange Like ifsomebody came to me, like if
anyone in my industry came to me, it was like, oh, you know,
sephora wants to meet with you.
I'd be like I'm on the nextflight, I don't care.
Nicola (20:00):
I'm choosing a pole.
Let me go, yeah.
Zuhara (20:03):
Yeah, like I would, just be, like I'm on it.
Gina (20:06):
I'll do anything.
Do you need to take an arm anda leg Like yeah?
So that seems very weird thatshe would kind of shy away from
that.
So I'm sure there's something,because there must be something
that we're missing there.
Sure, Okay, so how?
So what was the lastcommunication you had with her?
Zuhara (20:26):
I think it was around that February match.
I can counter check, but afterthat she went silent.
Gina (20:34):
So the payment has been paid.
Zuhara (20:35):
Yeah, yeah, I tried reaching out to the through a
lawyer and she was like you know, there's this close-waft
freelancers can be charginginterest on whatever amount that
is pending, so you can includethat, but it was like that
wasn't on the original contract.
I say and then why don't youjust clear my principle and then
, if you feel like you want topay the interest, you can go
(20:57):
ahead and pay the interest,because I'm not even pushing for
interest, I'm just asking foryou just want for the money that
you worked for.
Gina (21:04):
Yeah.
Nicola (21:04):
Right, yeah, which makes sense.
So after that, that's justlogic.
Gina (21:10):
Right, and it's like if, exactly, you are actually being
very gracious, like I would havebeen.
Like, pay me my money and payme 15% interest you, horrible
bitch.
Nicola (21:19):
Like, like I would be like, it's just like you just,
you just do you boo, pay me whenyou can.
Gina (21:28):
No, I mean, I don't.
That's the thing.
Like if someone like tries to Fwith my money, like I get mm-mm
, like I get real, like you'reway more gracious and generous
than I would ever be.
So did the lawyer reach out toher?
Zuhara (21:43):
Yeah, she did.
And then she she sent him thesame same close about.
You know she can start charginginterest and then if it accrues
for, I think, around threeyears, then I don't know what
happens.
I didn't even go through thatBecause what I told her was like
no, we don't need you to payeverything else.
All you want is for you just tosettle the principal pending
(22:05):
amount and then the lawyer's fee, which is just a hundred USD
for the band letter.
Yeah.
Gina (22:11):
And so is the lawyer still in contact with her.
Zuhara (22:15):
No, she went to the silent and was like okay, just
chill, let me do research andsee what else, how else we can
do.
Because what I realized was ifI was to press charges from my
end, even if I was to win thecase, I'll be forced to still
travel to Australia to be ableto whether it's to auction any
of her things, to be able torecover the money.
So it wouldn't have madefinancial sense at that point.
Gina (22:38):
Right, and that's like do you know she only hires like
from Kenya area or where is shefrom?
No, actually the majority arefrom Philippines.
Zuhara (22:52):
Majority are from.
Gina (22:53):
Philippines.
That's cheap labor.
That is cheap labor.
That's why that's fucked up.
What is she doing?
Okay, carry on.
Zuhara (23:05):
So I think it was the only Kenyan then, and then the
rest were from Philippine andherself, but from the new set of
people, so I think the PRladies from Australia like her.
And then there were two newrecruits, I guess from Stess or
something, I'm not sure.
Gina (23:21):
Okay, so that gives me like a little bit of a red flag
because, like everyone's remote,everyone's in a different
country, she probably doesn'thave any idea what those
countries employment laws arelike, and it's harder.
Nicola (23:37):
She's from Australia.
The employment law in Australiais very robust.
It's like ours, even forfreelancers or contractors, like
it's very specific.
So if you are employing peoplefrom overseas, you would have to
meet certain requirements inAustralia.
Zuhara (23:57):
So I think she's striving for the fact that we
don't know that information,because I'm in Kenya, so
whatever I'm doing, it would bebased on what will our load do,
and all that.
Gina (24:08):
And then the contract is time, right because you're
familiar with your legal systemin your country same with the
Philippines.
So like I would never know that, what Nicola just said, I would
never have known that.
I didn't know it before thismoment.
I just know it now.
So that's my point.
I think she's probably doingthis because it's like a
(24:30):
workaround, it's like a loopholekind of.
Zuhara (24:36):
So she can get away with whatever it is that she's
getting away with, yeah go ahead.
And I think when it came inagain, there's another face of
you know employees who had leftand majority of them have been
complaining.
You know there's been delay ofsalary and then when you ask for
the salary, you're a bad person.
You haven't been doing yourwork well.
There's always something toaccuse you so that you look like
(24:56):
the bad person in the end.
Gina (24:59):
Mm-hmm.
Nicola (25:02):
That's wild daughter, yeah.
Gina (25:05):
Yeah, okay.
So amidst all of this, youdropped a nice little bombshell
about culture cure.
Can you explain what culture?
Care is and why it is laughablethat this person also I think
she had like a 20-minute YouTubevideo that was like seen by
seven people, something likethat.
(25:26):
Right, nicola Mm-hmm For this.
Okay, so explain culture, cureand how you found out about it,
and then Nicola and I will startlaughing.
Zuhara (25:37):
So my parents started coming in for the first time
when she paid.
So it was under the culturecure and she told us you know, I
rent this agency where I'vebeen training organizations on
how to handle their employees,how they should treat their
employees and sure they belonghow they're supposed to be paid
on time and all that.
Gina (25:56):
you know everything to keep saying I'm losing my shit
right now.
Okay, go ahead.
Zuhara (26:01):
Go ahead.
Yeah, so I don't remember whenI was asking, or I was like I
remember you told me you'd be.
Gina (26:11):
We're just getting into the good parts.
I love your primary colorjumper.
It's like such a school teacher.
It's my hide jumper.
I love it.
Nicola (26:22):
They're so cheerful because I'm at the office today.
Zuhara (26:25):
Training organizations of these.
Nicola (26:26):
So when you're frozen, you're sorry.
Gina (26:35):
Okay, so you were explaining what culture cure
supposedly does.
She's supposedly teaching othercompanies how to run a company
properly.
Meanwhile, her only realexperience in corporate whatever
corporate marketing has been Ibelieve it was one internship
that we know for sure.
So I'm just going to say it'sclear.
(26:58):
Okay, and do you so you startgetting paid from there.
Zuhara (27:03):
Yeah.
Gina (27:05):
So from culture.
So she starts.
She explains to you whatculture cure is.
Zuhara (27:10):
Okay, then what happens?
And then that's that is thesame receipt and I think
addresses have been.
We've been receiving our paysfrom when these starts are
happening, you know you're notearning anything and they
delaying the salary, and whenyou try and raise it up, or when
somebody designs the bad people.
So I was like, okay, you sayyou're training organizations on
(27:33):
how they're supposed to treatthe employees.
How come you're not practicingthe same with the organization?
Because I mean, you should be aliving example If you know so
well when you're delayingsalaries is going to affect
these people you've taken,especially those who are mothers
.
You should be the last personyou know practicing that.
And she's like no, you know,it's not that, it's just the
(27:54):
accountant.
I've been trying to balance.
Gina (27:57):
Oh, the accountant who probably didn't exist.
Zuhara (28:01):
The ghost accountant.
Nicola (28:04):
But not only that, like Nosez On the website they have
like a manifesto on likebehavior and like a manifesto on
how best to treat their ownemployees Right.
Remember we went through themanifesto we did and we were
like this is wild, because nowshe's taken the time to write
(28:25):
this bullshit and doesn't evenfollow any of us.
Gina (28:29):
So my question is did we ever find out if she had any
actual clients for culture care?
Like what happened there?
Because, how?
Because my here's my line ofthinking if you're getting paid
from an organization that I it'slike it's it's not for profit
(28:50):
or it is for profit, it's forprofit organization, okay, I'm
wondering because it's likeunder this like I don't know
weird, in a weird niche, likemaybe there was a tax benefit to
getting paid through anorganization like that.
Like maybe it's it's not likean S corp or an LLC, it's, you
know, one of the otherformations that you know there
(29:14):
could potentially be some sortof money savings via taxes, like
because I know if you're like,you know, if you're a nonprofit,
you have special, there arespecial things that you are able
to do in term because you'renot for profit, you have, like
tax break.
So I'm wondering you know, Idon't know the laws in Australia
(29:35):
, but I'm wondering if that'swhy it was happening, and I
would love to know who theclients were for culture care,
because, based on that website,it was very I don't think it was
like updated since like 2018 or2019.
Right, yeah.
And it looked like it was justlike cut and pasted from other
things.
Nicola (29:53):
That's true.
Gina (29:55):
Yeah, like she probably Googled, like best practice and
workplace, and like, just like,copied the text and changed a
few words and you know, okay so,culture, care, the irony, okay.
So then what happens?
Zuhara (30:14):
No, she just, you know, rubbish that off.
And she was like the accountantbalancing clients not paying.
So the excuses kept going onand on and I was like, okay,
enough is enough.
Gina (30:28):
Okay, so at this point, has any of your other like
fellow colleagues from your timeworking there?
Has any of them reached out toyou?
Has there been any other likeinformation that was gathered
from I don't know?
Just it seems like you're kindof keeping tabs on her.
So has there been any kind ofadditional information that you
(30:52):
found out after the fact?
Zuhara (30:55):
I think before then I just realized she was.
She was still going on thefrequent vacations and that
clients have been paying, so shejust wasn't paying me.
That is the only thing that wasgoing on.
But we realized one of thosecolleagues that I used to talk
to, you know, I couldn't reach.
I think she had blocked me orsomething.
So I realized maybe it's her orshe got the directive.
(31:16):
You know you need to cut linkswith her if you want to stay in
this organization.
So I understood that.
Gina (31:23):
So, as far as you know, were you the only employee who
didn't get paid for time worked.
Zuhara (31:32):
As of now.
I think so because those whoare left behind they say there's
been, you know the delays, butI don't know if they eventually
got paid or not.
Because I couldn't reach them,oh yeah.
Gina (31:43):
Right, of course, Because this is so bizarre.
All right, Nicola.
What are your thoughts?
Nicola (31:48):
I just think, like you know, I think it's so curious
because you know we've seen theemails right and it's just so
like all the emails are soexcusing, like there's always
something that is out of mycontrol and this is the reason I
can't meet you, but there'snever really any concrete reason
(32:10):
as to why she's not meetingthose contractual obligations,
which I find really weird.
And then also, I find it reallyweird that, you know, I think
for me, my, probably my biggestred flag is the fact that she
has gone just from thisinternship and opened this
business and is, I wonder, ifyou know, there's kind of
(32:33):
circles all the way back, ginato write the famous phrase right
at the very beginning.
But I actually wonder if maybeshe's immature in her
understanding of how businessworks and doesn't actually
understand that her behaviorimpacts others.
Yet I don't know if she's atthat point in her career.
(32:55):
How old is she?
Zuhara (32:58):
I don't know, I think she's in her late twenties.
Oh God, yeah.
Should be late twenties at the30s, yeah.
Gina (33:07):
No, no one should be owning a company in your late
twenties.
I, one of my first.
I I did.
I actually started my company,my first company, when I was
around the same age and Icompletely mismanaged it.
I like that was 100% my doing.
I didn't have any employees, soit only ended up affecting like
(33:28):
me.
But I but I also learned fromit.
I was like, okay, if I go intobusiness for myself or create
something else, I'm going tohave to learn from these stupid
things that I did.
Like I just I had no idea howto like do a proper accounting.
I you know, it was just therewas, you know.
So now we have an outsideaccountant.
(33:49):
So it's like that actually doesexist.
Zuhara (33:54):
It's true, it's true, I can give you information.
Nicola (33:57):
At least you made up her name and you're just like from
her email address.
Gina (34:02):
Me.
Yeah, I read an article notgoing to lie, I read an article
not that long ago that people,people in positions that are
like you know, I don't know,maybe higher up, maybe middle
tier, will create their ownassistant.
And it's really just them.
And so they'll like callrestaurants and they'll be like
(34:24):
yes, I am making a reservationfor Mr Smith and he must come in
and like they're a lot bitchier, and then they get shit done.
But it's really this, it'sreally them, and I was like
that's amazing, I should startdoing that.
Nicola (34:37):
So on board.
Oh my God, what would youassist in?
Gina (34:43):
I don't know, I don't know .
I would have to really thinkabout it because, like it would
have to be something like unique.
Nicola (34:52):
So okay.
So my like, if I'm going togive a fake name, like you know,
when you go to a house and youlook at a house and they're like
write your name down to showyou at the house, I always get
Sarah Summers All right, allright, I like it.
Gina (35:07):
So your fake assistant would be Sarah Summers.
Nicola (35:10):
Absolutely she would be.
If you're getting an email fromSarah Summers, know that it's
me, that's you.
Unless this is Sarah Summerswho wants to be my assistant, I
won't pay you.
Gina (35:23):
I love Sarah Summers.
Nicola (35:27):
Okay, Zuhara, what would your assistant's name be?
Gina (35:29):
Yeah, what would your fake assistant be I think I'd go
with Susan.
Zuhara (35:32):
Susan, they get things done, hello.
Gina (35:37):
It would.
Mine would be Karen.
Mine would be Karen.
Yeah, Because Karen would belike you clearly can't handle
this problem, so I'm going tohave to speak to your supervisor
.
Nicola (35:49):
Sorry.
Gina (35:49):
All right, so wait, so we?
I truly don't believe theaccountant existed.
I don't Because even for me,like my first company, I didn't
know what I was doing and Ididn't, I was not even wise
enough to fake an accountant.
Also, this was like 20, no,2008 maybe, so I don't think
(36:11):
like anyone was so savvy yetwith, like you know.
Zuhara (36:15):
Anyway, but I remember when one of the clients was
venting and she was like youknow, she, I think she took the
time and decided to go to socialmedia and see what you have
done.
And she was like if you own theorganization and you don't even
have a you know, social mediaaccount, so how are you going to
(36:36):
do marketing for someone elsewhen you cannot even manage your
own?
Even the company didn't have asocial media profile and all
that.
Gina (36:46):
What wait?
Hold on.
Yeah, Let me just rewind.
So you're saying, just to beclear for the people in the back
, you're saying she was insocial media and like marketing
management, and not only did thecompany, did culture here have
an Instagram presence.
No, I don't see one, so none ofher companies actually have an
(37:09):
Instagram presence and they'renot doing any, so how did?
You get new clients.
I'm so confused.
Yeah, where are these clients?
Nicola (37:17):
I don't know.
Zuhara (37:20):
I don't know if she reached out from a previous
contact or something.
Yeah, we are falling outbecause for the LinkedIn profile
, for the catalyst brandstrategy, I'm the one who
created it and started managingit.
So where I dropped off, that'swhere everything stopped.
Gina (37:40):
Okay.
So yeah, as of now, what do youhope to have happen with this
situation?
What is your biggest hope?
I mean, of course, you wouldlike to be paid, but do you feel
like you're actually going toget paid?
Zuhara (37:57):
Honestly, I don't know, but I think from what I know is
I've learned a lot from thiswhole experience, because right
now, if somebody is sending meout a contract, I need to see,
you know the whole process,because with I just had the
interview, here's the contract,let's start working.
So it was all that at once.
I didn't take time to realizeokay, you know, we don't have HR
(38:20):
in this organization and I'venever met the accountant and we
don't do regular companymeetings just to update the
internal kind of meetings,because most of the meetings
were we meeting the clients andthen maybe updates in terms of
this and that.
And I remember we were given aChristmas bonus of $10.
(38:43):
$10?
Yeah, I think they're about.
It was less than $100 actually.
Gina (38:52):
I feel like.
I don't even want it.
At this point I'd be like thisis insulting.
I don't even want it, Wow.
Zuhara (39:00):
Yeah.
Gina (39:01):
Okay, cool, cool cool.
That's terrible.
So at this point I don't know,nicola, do you think she's going
to get paid?
I don't.
I don't think you're going toget paid at this point.
Zuhara (39:15):
I'm actually.
I've reached out to anAustralian debt collecting
company, so I'll be talking withthem tomorrow.
Gina (39:22):
Yeah, so I wanted to see how that's going.
Okay, but my feeling is if shehas the balls to ignore a lawyer
and to just cut you completelyout, she's whatever.
Whatever these debt, becauseeven debt collectors and it's
not like back in the day when,like the debt collector would go
to your door and be like giveme the fucking money, like it's
(39:43):
all done, you know, virtuallybasically.
So there's really not muchunless you're like getting
involved with like the mafia,like they're not, they're not
going to make house call.
You know they might call youincessantly or bug you
incessantly, but if she has nointention of paying unless
there's something differentgoing on in Australia, she's not
(40:06):
going to pay.
Zuhara (40:07):
So they say something like they'll have her listed and
then maybe her credit scorewill go down or something.
So most businesses don't wantthat.
Gina (40:16):
Yeah, I mean we'll see.
I'd be very interested.
I just feel like her creditscore is probably garbage anyway
, considering how she managesmoney.
So what's another hit on creditscore?
It's like garbage, less garbage.
It's like I think so I think,like, like my wish for you is
(40:38):
just that people become peoplehear your story and they're wary
of this.
Like I do think, post COVID andduring COVID, all of this
remote work from all over theplace brings its own host of
issues like this, like what isthe idea?
And so it seems kind of crazy,like that it's being used, that
(41:03):
like it's kind of like I justfeel like there's so many other
issues that that brings, youknow, just being remote and
various different, you know justvarious countries involved.
Like Nicola, you had that issuewith our company, like we
(41:24):
didn't, we didn't know underwhose jerk jurisdiction, like
your employment contract waseven, you know, like it
definitely was New.
Zealand, so I should haveactually found that out later,
yeah, so it's like I just feellike working remotely, having
these issues are, like they'regoing to be more prevalent, so I
(41:45):
hope that people hear yourstory and that they could
safeguard themselves from this,because you were basically doing
free labor.
Zuhara (41:53):
Yeah right.
Gina (41:54):
She wasn't even like buying you lunch or anything
like free labor, so it's like.
It's like yeah, so what do youthink, nicola?
What do you think the takeawayhere is for everyone?
Nicola (42:08):
I think the takeaway here is you know, make sure you
keep receipts, check your, checkyour contractual obligations
from both parties, not just oneside.
I think you know, unfortunately, sometimes, unless you fight
really hard, sometimes it justdoesn't.
You know, sometimes it justdoesn't go to plan.
(42:33):
I guess, like this is this isone of the most horrible, awful
stories.
Gina (42:39):
Because it's like so overt it's not even like I feel like
like I didn't feel like like insome of the other toxic
workplaces like that.
It's much more subtle, it'smore like they work on your
psyche, whereas this is justoutright like fuck you, I'm not
paying you.
You know what I mean.
Zuhara (43:00):
Yeah.
Gina (43:05):
Okay.
So if you could do it all overagain, what would you do
differently?
Zuhara (43:12):
Honestly, I'll take a closer look at the company, you
know, do some little research,some back on research.
Yeah.
Nicola (43:19):
I'm so glad that you're going to the death collector.
I'm curious to know whathappens.
Keep us updated.
Yeah, who will?
Yeah, let us know, becauseobviously we've got an interest
in this now, right?
So, yeah, I'd be curious toknow how it all plays out.
(43:40):
But it's been going on for solong, like you've been having
these challenges for so long,and that's you know that's
stressful on your mental healthand your well being as well.
You know it's not even likefinancially, like park that for
a second, but it's degrading onyour mental health and your well
being.
Gina (44:02):
Yeah.
Nicola (44:02):
I'm sorry this happened to you.
Gina (44:06):
I think maybe people would also want to know, like are you
currently working?
How are you getting jobs?
Are you still working freelance?
Like give us a little infoabout that.
Zuhara (44:17):
Yeah, I'm actually still working freelance mentally on
LinkedIn and then on Indeed.
That's where I get most of theclients from.
But I can say my new employer Idid the due diligence and the
whole process is obvious thatthese are people who know what
they're doing.
You know, you had the HR, youhad the onboarding process, we
(44:37):
had all that lined out, right,yeah.
Gina (44:41):
I mean that not to say that bigger companies are better
, but there are hopefully alittle more checks and balances.
When it's a small company, youknow it's somebody.
They may not have all of that,the ability to do that.
You know, like for me, like inmy business, it's like I'm HR,
I'm also like I do, I do a lotof things but mainly like for me
(45:06):
, I let, I have my, I haveemployees that I just kind of
let them do their thing.
I try not to get involvedbecause it's like if I knew how
to do what they were doing, thenI'd be doing it and clearly I
don't.
So any input from me is going tobe like you know, I stick to
what I'm good at and that's itStick to your wheelhouse.
Yeah, exactly, all right.
(45:27):
Well, this has been aninteresting chat.
I'm sorry we couldn't get herto join.
The invitation will stand ifshe ever wants to come on and
talk about her company.
Nicola (45:39):
So that would be lovely.
Gina (45:41):
We would like it.
I would like to know kind ofwhere culture here, where that
idea came from.
Okay, it would be interesting.
Hit us up if you're listeningto this, which I'm sure you're
not, because you probablypreemptively blocked us.
Catherine, like she's, she'slike the blocking queen.
She's probably blocked us justafter we even just said hey, we
(46:03):
want to talk to you aboutculture.
Her, like you, suspicious block.
Nicola (46:13):
Well, we can people find you to her if they want to, if
they want to recruit you in aswell.
Where can people find you?
Zuhara (46:20):
on LinkedIn as the Zuhura Miriam, I think I'll
share the link with you.
Nicola (46:26):
Okay, sounds good, and we will put it in the show notes
as well, so people can comelooking for you.
Zuhara (46:32):
Awesome.
Thank you so much and it's beena great chat and I'm knows
anything about this woman Also,let us know.
Nicola (46:41):
Oh, yes, that would be if anyone here has one of my
employees.
Gina (46:46):
Yeah, former employees, anyone.
If it reaches them.
You never know who's gonnalisten to us.
Crazies, Please reach out.
We would love to hear more.
Nicola (46:57):
And I think as like a closing remark, if, if heaven
forbid she were to be listeningtoday, what would you like to
say to her?
Zuhara (47:09):
Just keep your word.
I mean a word should representwho you are, because it can be
low, destroy you at the sametime.
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