December 5, 2023 • 45 mins
Joining us in an insightful episode is Captain (Not a real name!), a seasoned player who has thrived for 30 years in the thrilling, often merciless world of the entertainment industry. His tales stretch from directing commercials and music videos to rubbing shoulders with celebrities like Courtney Love. But it's not all glitz and glamour; Captain doesn't shy away from pulling back the curtain on the darker side of the industry, recounting incidents of intense pressure, humiliation, and the constant hustle required to stay afloat.
Venturing beyond Hollywood, we unfold the controversial Hobbit Law in New Zealand, a legislation that has stirred up a storm in the global film industry. We engage with a former employee of Weta, a company that has lent its magic to monumental films like Avatar and Lord of the Rings. Hear about the toxic workplace environment, daunting allegations of bullying and harassment, and the grueling stress that often leads workers towards unhealthy coping mechanisms. This is an unfiltered look at the colossal pressure that often simmers behind the silver screen.
Welcome to Season 2, where we embark on authentic and unfiltered conversations about life, relationships, society, and more. Our opinions are solely our own and don't represent professional advice. It's just our perspective, so form your conclusions. Heads up, this podcast may contain adult content and explicit language. Let's dive in!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Annon (00:00):
Oh, geez, I've been warned by five people now not to
do this.
Gina (00:06):
Who listens to our stupid podcast anyway, yeah.
Nicola (00:09):
I bet you none of them listen.
Nobody listens.
I'm sure people listen.
I mean they do.
They bitch about it.
Gina (00:15):
They're like oh my god, gina, so annoying.
And I'm like yes, I am.
Nicola (00:19):
So, captain, welcome to the podcast.
Today you have got a question.
Annon (00:24):
Hello, Gina and Nicola.
Nicola (00:26):
Welcome, welcome.
I've got quite an interestingpodcast, I think, today, so we
would love to know from you whatindustry you work in and how
long have you been working inthe industry that you have come
from.
Annon (00:41):
I've worked in the entertainment industry for 30
years now.
I started back in the early 90sand I definitely went through
being from Los Angeles.
There were a lot of drugs, alot of cocaine and I started in
(01:05):
commercials and music videos andthat was wonderful, you know.
But over the years, you know,getting older, it's been a bit
more difficult.
It brought me into the filmindustry for the past 20 years.
(01:29):
So, yeah, it's been a bit of avaried ride.
You know, meeting Courtney Love, dave Matthews, outcast Big Boy
and those people that were verylovely, but yeah, I'm trying to
(01:55):
figure out how to say it.
Nicola (01:58):
You had mentioned in our catch up that you had met
Courtney Love.
Annon (02:03):
What was that?
Nicola (02:03):
like for you.
Annon (02:04):
She was.
What was really funny is therewas a producer on the video that
we worked on and he berated meand he called me a loser and he
was just an awful person.
But she finally stepped in andwas very lovely and very
(02:30):
supportive and I do know thatshe loves Prairie Winkle the
color, and I met Frances Beanand Floppy Bear, which was her
teddy bear.
But yeah, she was verywonderful and she gave me her
(02:50):
number and she was very.
You know, I can't say enoughgood things about her.
Nicola (02:55):
You gave me her number, hey, har.
Annon (02:59):
Well, nothing ever transpired from that.
But yeah, it was funny becauseJoe Gaglione, which was the
producer that berated me Becausewhat happened was Nancy
Bardowell was the originaldirector on the show and what
(03:19):
happened was I kind of wentagainst what she wanted to do
and it was part of a productioncompany, so he was more
connected to that.
But I told you know, I soldCourtney Love the idea that we
want more Alice in Wonderlandand not like anything Nirvana or
(03:41):
grunge, so yeah, but she wasshe and she was full on with it
and she loved it.
And you know, celebrity Skinwas the music video.
So yeah, you know that was avery interesting time.
Nicola (04:01):
Fair enough.
So is being berated in front ofpeople quite common.
Annon (04:08):
Yes, that's the thing is.
Especially in Los Angeles itcould be very, it's very
competitive.
So people can can get a bitopinionated about things and
especially if they think thatyou've gone over the line that
you're supposed to do.
You know it's, it's definitelythat was.
(04:32):
That was a very profoundexperience in my history.
But yeah, I mean but I'veworked with other directors on
these videos outcast bombs overBaghdad, roses and what.
Brian Barber was lovely, great,great person.
You know, that was probably theonly real kind of traumatic
(04:57):
experience where I had to likebite my tongue and just be like
just accept it because I need towork.
Nicola (05:05):
Was it was it like I'm curious to like no more about
this berating.
So was it more like you're afucking loser or you just lose
that like.
Annon (05:17):
What happened was was he is, his partner was just entered
and he was very emotional.
So just the beratement was justthe fact that I over step what
he thought, I over step myboundaries and luckily, courtney
(05:41):
love stepped in and my, mybuddy producer, tracy, stepped
in and said you don't talk tohim like that.
You know, it's like you know.
I was just like, I'll take it.
Nicola (05:52):
How old were you at this point?
Annon (05:54):
2425.
Geez.
Nicola (05:58):
So this is still kind of new to the industry or just
like yeah well, I mean, I'vebeen working.
Annon (06:06):
this is like 97, 98.
And I started back in, I think,92.
So I had some experience.
But but working with a bunch ofdifferent creatives on
different commercials and such,you know, prepared me a bit for
(06:27):
it because they could be verycaustic.
But you know that was probablythe most you got aggressive
experience I've ever had how.
Nicola (06:41):
how did you get into this?
Because it doesn't seem likeit's a like these are natural
career path into.
Annon (06:50):
What was straight it was was strangely so.
I used to.
When I was a kid I was.
I drew a lot of comics and dida lot of art.
And what was funny was,randomly I had a friend come
over and hook a stereo up in mycar.
He said, hey, you're an artist,you should go.
You know work for the company Iwork at.
(07:10):
And I was like sure.
So then I just started and justkept going.
So you know.
But my background you know.
My parents were in specialeffects as well, so I'm a bit
accustomed to just the wholedynamics of the craziness and
the drug use and everything.
(07:32):
You know they're from the 70s,so you know, in 80s, so you can
imagine some of that.
Well, my next experience was Iworked on a movie called the
Guardian, which I'm sure youprobably seen.
Nicola (07:50):
And just give it, because I'm terrible with movies
, which one was the Guardian?
The one was Josh Hartnick, andthe one with the helicopter in
the water.
Annon (07:59):
Yes, yes, yes.
So yeah, that was the next one.
And what happened was it was avery it was very small company,
so it was very, very stressful.
And the thing is, is it?
There was an autistic guy, Ithink he was autistic and I made
(08:22):
we were all getting sick and Imade a joke about somebody
touching his computer and allthat and he went off the rails
and so he spat my face, thenthrew a chair at me and then
went to lunch and me and mybuddy were like what the hell is
going on, you know, because I'dnever experienced anything like
(08:44):
that either, and so he comesback.
Nicola (08:50):
He threw a chair at you and he sped at you, I feel like
in this instance, and you werefucking with him.
Annon (08:56):
I feel like you were the talker, the only thing I made a
very simple joke about.
Hey, we've all been sick, andbecause it was like there was
like a weird, you know justsickness going on, and I said
well, you know, steve, what wasat your computer?
And you know he was touching itand he had been really sick.
(09:19):
And Steve just blew up at meand so, yeah, so then, after he
threw the chair and spit my face, we're sitting there.
Were like what the hell justhappened.
And then he comes back fromlunch and he proceeds to Lysol
everything, so much so that wehad, actually we had to leave
(09:41):
the room because it was justtoxic.
And you know, the good thing,though, is that, years later, we
work together and we're veryfriendly, and you know all right
.
Gina (09:53):
So can you tell us sort of how did you start working for
the main company we're going tobe talking about?
How did you start working withthem and were there any red
flags?
Beyond the normal Hollywood oryou know, big mover and shaker
in the entertainment?
Annon (10:13):
Yeah, well, first I randomly I was in Los Angeles
and I randomly sent this companymy resume and like an hour
later I got a response sayinghey, come out here.
And initially I was.
My contract was for sevenmonths and that was pretty much
(10:36):
it.
And you know there are verylong days.
You know we were doing eighthour weeks and plus and so much
so that sometimes we slept underour deaths.
So it was very in the earlydays.
It was very intense.
And over the years, you knowI've worked on many films and
(11:04):
over the years they've scaledeverything back due to the laws
governing.
You know the hours you can workand such.
Nicola (11:18):
But yeah, let's talk a little bit about those laws,
right?
So I've, like, this is one ofthe things that I'm really
curious about because you knowwe.
So, just to keep in mind,because we haven't really
explained, because we know thatyou were a former employee at
the place that we're going totalk about today but there was a
particular law that passed inNew Zealand called the Hobbit
(11:41):
Law.
It was formally known as theEmployment Relations Law and it
became well known across theboard in 2011.
And the law essentially,fundamentally changed the
employment landscape for filmproduction workers in the
country.
Originally, it was designed toaddress industrial disputes that
(12:02):
threatened the production ofthe Hobbit, because this, you
know, hobbit was made here.
We've had Avatar, we've had Lordof the Rings, like we've had a
lot of big, big movies made here, and so it was originally
addressed to, you know deal withthe Hobbit movie films.
And the law had a broaderimplication on contract workers
(12:25):
in the entertainment industry ingeneral.
So the key points that came outof this particular law change
was contract status.
It classified film workers ascontractors rather than
employees and unless they had awritten employment agreement
stating otherwise, this meantthat the contractors were not
(12:45):
entitled to certain legalprotections that employees
typically enjoy, such ascollective bargaining, sick
leave, holiday pay, acc,protection against unjustified
dismissal.
There was also a lack ofbargaining power.
So there's very littlebargaining power for those
contractors in New Zealand.
(13:05):
They can't engage in collectivebargaining through unions,
significant disadvantage in anindustry where the jobs are
project-based.
Job insecurity as well.
The nature of film production,you know, involves tight
schedules, we know, andproject-based work.
Annon (13:24):
Being a contractor makes this Setting the job security
even more precarious and youessentially hired for a project
or even part of a project, withno obligations for long-term
employment well, typically wewould get these if you're lucky
enough, you get a year contractin such but what they do is is
(13:49):
they treat you Like an employeebut they expect you to be a
contractor.
So any any sick time that youtake off, you know you're kind
of it's kind of frowned upon andyou know it's it's, definitely
it's, it's it's trying to haveboth worlds With, with the
(14:12):
exception of you're not anemployee.
You know it's, it's it's you'rean employee, or expected to act
like an employee, but you're acontractor and you don't get any
of those benefits of being anemployee.
Gina (14:28):
And do they do that now?
Nicola (14:30):
Yeah yes we know that we had, you know, these
implications for contractworkers, which is essentially
what this organization employees.
Now there are two, I want tosay there are two houses almost
is where the digital and there'swhere to workshop, where the
(14:50):
digital is the visual effectsarm and they're into their
computer generated imagery andthey've made movies like avatar,
avengers, most recently cocainebear, and they focus more so on
digital visual effects, media,animation and CGI, and then
(15:13):
there, is another arm calledwhere to workshop, and they
focus on practical prop designand Manufacturing and they kind
of has tangible elements.
So they have prop designmanufacturing, creature design,
special effects, makeup, andthen main projects were the
Chronicles of Narnia, mad Max,district 9, and I think the
(15:36):
reason you know kind of gettingright into the nitty gritty of
it.
Both companies are part of thewaiter group and they're very
distinct entities with their ownspecializations, but they've
both got very differentworkplace culture issues and
that's kind of what we wanted tospeak about.
They're based in Wellington,new Zealand.
(15:58):
You know, being part of hugeiconic films, won numerous
awards, but all that is all thatglitters is not called jokes
when Employees have like.
When we've spoken to previousemployees that have joined this
organization, they've describedit as the holy grail for
(16:19):
creativity.
But what's changed is thatthere is a culture of toxicity,
bullying, harassment that haveovershadowed that creative work
as well.
And While the allegations arepretty serious and varied,
there's been a lot around, youknow, kind of the revelation of
the existence of the caveman,which I'm sure you can tell us.
(16:50):
So in in 2020, two independentreviews were conducted.
You know, qc did an 11 weekreview of where the digital,
involving interviews with over200 current and former employees
.
Much like yourself, shereceived 80 complaints of
(17:11):
bullying and another 120complaints of inappropriate
conduct.
She made 17 recommendations,including developing a code of
conduct and improving andreporting mechanisms that the
management, including thefounders, had expressed
commitment to implement theserecommendations.
At where to workshop, there wasanother review held, but it was
(17:32):
the review cleared the companyallegations leading to further
controversy.
No-transcript uhrecommendations.
At Weta Workshop, there wasanother review held, but it was
the review cleared the companyallegations leading to further
controversy because Hyde foundthe allegations to be
unsubstantiated, which raisedquestions around the
investigations.
Thurriness fairness did theyinterview enough people, were
(17:55):
the right questions asked andthere was a lot of insight into
the fact that you know kind ofthey had learned from the QC
issue and started getting peopleto do NDAs, which is really
interesting as well.
Annon (18:10):
Yeah Well, we, we all, we always we have to sign it in
NDA anytime, you know we get acontract extension.
The thing is is with like the,the, the cave and such, I think
a lot of it is the pressure andworking long hours and literally
(18:33):
people have hard liquor ontheir desks and are drinking
throughout the day can make fora bit of a bit of a kind of
elastic reality around certainbehaviors.
It's definitely not, you know,you definitely don't want a
(18:58):
bottle of vodka at your desk ora full, or some people actually
had full bars.
And then you find peoplelooking at these, you know,
graphic pornography at theirdesks, just randomly, and it's
like what the hell is that?
(19:18):
It's, it's.
It wasn't really acceptable,acceptable back in America, back
in the 90s.
You know it's, it's.
Nicola (19:27):
So how did?
How did they get away with itLike what you know it's.
Annon (19:32):
So explain to Gina what the caveman is, because well,
the caveman was kind of like apost that people would do, where
they would put, you know,graphic jokes, pornography, you
know just random ideas aboutcertain women that worked at the
(19:57):
studio and you know, andbasically it was just a very it
was very boys club, you knowvery kind of like the post,
though like it was it was an, itwas an internal system, that
that that you could share thingswith yeah yeah.
(20:18):
So yeah, definitely was it.
Like I said, in that time therewas a lot of drinking, there
are very long hours and thereare some very crude people that
you know kind of abused peopleor you know had subjects or
(20:43):
topics that they would talkabout, people and such, and
these are mainly women, you knowit was trouble like
specifically for this.
No, it finally got shut down,you know, because people were
talking about it.
It's like they don't wantanyone to know this.
Nicola (21:07):
How did the cavemen kind of relate back to porn Friday?
Annon (21:12):
Well, that, that that I think those two were related.
So, yeah, the caveman thing, orcave thing, predates my time
there.
It went back to like 2005, Ithink so it's.
You know it went on until like2013, 2014, or 2015.
(21:38):
And then it was.
I guess HR got involved and waslike this is unacceptable.
You know it's.
It was definitely a verydifferent time in the company,
even though now it's become muchmore corporate and you don't
see that anywhere anymore, whichis good.
(22:01):
But yeah, it definitely.
You know it was.
It was a bit crazy back in, youknow the early days or earlier
days.
Gina (22:13):
So was it more so like that it grew out of the caveman
posts like people were puttinglike pornographic stuff in that
messaging system and then, oncethat got shut down, it kind of
morphed into what was it.
What do you guys call it?
Nicola (22:26):
Friday.
Annon (22:30):
I never partook in that but, but I witnessed it and you
know, so can you explain whatexactly a typical porn Friday
was like.
Gina (22:40):
I must know.
Annon (22:44):
Well, it's just a lot of sharing of graphic images of
women you know and and andvarious states of undress and
you know situations.
Nicola (23:00):
So, so so tactful yeah well, what's that?
Gina (23:04):
What'd you say, nicola?
So tactful, yeah, I mean Ithink I think most people know
what pornography is, but I thinkwe're.
I'm well for me.
I'm curious, like how did itbecome?
Like, did men and womenparticipate in this?
I mean I understand women weresort of on the receiving end of
like but like, how did it becomelike a company, wide thing?
Annon (23:30):
Well, the thing is is that we work in a mainly
dominated in the past by men andit's just kind of like a, you
know, it's like I would describeit as maybe a little bit of a
fraternity mentality, where it'sjust like a bunch of guys
(23:50):
sharing stuff with guys, butthere were women around which
was made them uncomfortable andwas very unpleasant and it's
like.
You know, like I said, I wasnever into that because I'm like
, I'm here to work, you know,but it was.
It was more of like kind of aboys club.
Nicola (24:10):
And anyone who did participate in porn Friday.
Annon (24:13):
Yes, Wait there?
Gina (24:18):
wait okay.
So did the majority of peopleparticipate in porn Friday?
Annon (24:23):
Well, like I said back, it was mainly men, but you know,
we had.
We had people that were gettingbusy in the showers.
Gina (24:39):
Hold on, because I was going to say, I was going to say
like there's nothing worse inmy opinion.
I'm thinking about this and I'mlike if I were to get like
super turned on at work, likewhat, what's the point, what's
the end game?
Well, that would be horrible.
I'd be like I want to go andsex with my partner, but I can't
because I'm stuck at work.
(25:00):
Like what is the?
Yeah, like I don't understand.
Nicola (25:03):
Have you got people like at work, like what's happening.
Annon (25:09):
Well, no, so so we, we, we have these showers, and a few
of the people would get busy inthe showers, and so much so
that the, the, the, the greatguy that was doing facilities he
had to clean up condoms fromthe shower floor.
Gina (25:30):
People like at least clean up after yourself.
Annon (25:31):
That's not not it's, it was.
You know it's.
It's definitely changed now.
It's not it's, it's definitelynot not that way.
But yeah, I mean it would.
You know it.
Literally people were gettingbusy with each other and the the
, the certain areas that could,and you know it you know it just
(25:56):
happened.
You know it was just like I saidI was.
I was oblivious to most of it.
You know, most of the time I'mjust like I just sit on my desk
and work.
But yeah, definitely was, youknow, a bit a bit crazy.
You know it's.
It's when there's a lot of,there's a lot of interactions
(26:20):
with people, interactions goingon with several different people
, just because they were like,you know, fuck it, you know I
can do it.
There was much more.
It was much more free kind ofgoing environment then.
But you know that's alldefinitely change very, you know
(26:41):
, drastically, which is a goodthing.
Gina (26:44):
So yeah, and what was the downfall when, like, how did how
did it change so drastically?
So it was, it was maybe fromthis review.
Nicola (26:58):
Yes there was this huge review that was done, and then a
whole bunch of stuff had tochange and, yeah, one of the
things that came out of thereview though and I'm curious to
know a little bit more aboutthis as well he's in the review
both where to workshop and whereto digital were accused of
setting unrealistic deadlines,overloading workers with work
(27:19):
and creating a culture wherehoarding work became necessary
to appear busy, and obviously,in those kinds of instances, you
know your stress level is isreally really high.
What has changed with regardsto, like that overloading of
work and that kind ofunrealistic expectation?
Because that creates its owntoxic environment.
(27:41):
It creates its own little toxicecosystem.
Annon (27:45):
In my opinion it hasn't really changed.
The bid days keep gettingshorter and they expect more,
but they still want a highperformance.
So it's in that sense it hasn'tchanged, although it's sexual
stuff and all that you know.
(28:05):
I think a lot of the bullyinghas has gone away, but you know
it's, it's now it's being run byan American company and they
expect an American kind of youjust keep going, you just keep
going.
And what they do is is a lot ofthe friends in in the past have
(28:31):
gone away because it's like youget to a certain age, it's like
I can't compete with these kidsanymore.
You know it's, it's you've donea lot of work and literally
it's it's you have to.
You're only as good as yourlast shot, or you know getting
the work done.
Nicola (28:53):
So yeah, what do you feel, especially with like due
to the nature or the competitivenature of the industry, the
scarcity of jobs, you know,obviously employees choose not
to speak up or speak about theirexperiences.
What do you think is kind ofthe mental health, of the
psychological impact of thatpersistent stress, the long
(29:16):
hours Like?
What kind of impact do youthink that has on?
You know people in on doing thework.
Annon (29:26):
Well, people will self-medicate, you know they try
to take time off and such, butit's definitely it's destructive
to your mental wellness,Because there's been an industry
wide called Race to the Bottom,where, you know, a lot of the
(29:49):
work is outsourced to India, youknow China, Korea and such, and
so what happens is it's youhave to try to keep up with all
those stressors and the thing isis it leads a lot of people to,
you know, like I said,self-medicate and such.
Nicola (30:12):
Burnout.
One of the things in the reviewis that former employees had
spoken about becomingagoraphobic and being completely
burnt out, that they left theindustry.
Yeah, agoraphobic, sorry,agoraphobic, agoraphobic and
never leaving the house again.
Annon (30:34):
And there was.
There was this person, thistrans person, that literally
just up and quit because theycouldn't deal with the
harassment and just thenegativity and, you know, along
with the work stress, so it'slike you know, it coupled all
those different things togetherand was just too toxic for the
(30:57):
person to be there and they left.
Gina (31:01):
And I feel like that they should have left.
That's terrible.
They're being like bullied andthen like overloaded.
Right yeah, and it was and itwas.
Annon (31:10):
The person was very professional and very achieved.
It was just.
It just became too much forthem to deal with.
Nicola (31:20):
So I'm also curious to know do you like in your like in
your circle, do you know anyonethat's also left the industry
because of kind of the pressuresor the the experience that
they've had?
Annon (31:34):
Yeah, a few of the people that I know.
We're just like you know what.
I don't want to do this anymore.
It's just you know, like I said, it's always, you're always
working on deadlines and notesand things, and it can get a bit
frustrating with the hours and,and you know, some people will
(32:00):
give these weird notes that makeno sense and it's it just gets
frustrating.
So, yeah, and my circle, fourpeople have left.
They're just like I'm done.
Nicola (32:14):
What do they end up doing Like?
What do they?
What do they end up like?
Annon (32:19):
Well, one one is a is an Uber driver, okay, and, and a
couple of others, literally oneof my, one of my friends.
What happened was he was he wasdriving by the road and he saw
you know the guys that are thathold the signs and he's like you
(32:41):
know what, I'd rather do thatthan do this job.
What's that?
Gina (32:47):
Like the lollipop people, like the people, yes yes, yes,
yes, he was like you knowbecause, like people on the side
of the road with signs, in hereis like you're begging.
No no, no, no no.
Nicola (33:00):
I'm thinking those people that, like, hold the
signs like an arrow and it'slike oh, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, like road workers.
Gina (33:11):
I was like he'd rather be begging for money than go to
work.
Nicola (33:15):
That's, you know, he's like, I'm like, you're like no,
no, no, he wasn't begging forwork.
Annon (33:25):
He, he, literally he looked and he saw that the guys
on the side of the road duringthe construction had a very low,
you know, aggravation level andhe was like you know what.
I'll do that instead.
Gina (33:41):
You know doing that now.
Yes.
Annon (33:44):
And is the level of?
Gina (33:46):
stress better.
Annon (33:50):
It definitely is less stressful, I think, than this
industry, and he'd been in theindustry for many, many years.
Nicola (33:59):
So he was wild.
Annon (34:01):
Yeah, now, he was just at his wit's end.
But yeah, it's definitely likeI said.
It's when they keep shirkingthe bid days and you're
competing with younger peoplethat get paid less and you get a
bit older, it gets to a pointwhere you're just a bit just
(34:26):
burnout.
Nicola (34:28):
You just want to explain for the listeners what a bid
day is, because I feel likethat's a concept in itself.
Annon (34:36):
Well, a bid day is essentially the amount of time
that they want you to complete atask so you can have a shot
that basically, they say itshould take two to three days to
do this.
But sometimes that's not trueand sometimes you get these.
(34:56):
You have a lot of things to doin a certain shot and then what
happens is they're like, well,you just need to hurry up, but
they still expect perfection.
So it's definitely the amountof time they expect you to do a
certain project or a certainshot.
Gina (35:19):
Okay, so they're like allotting.
I mean, I do this too, likewith some of the people who
report to me like I'm like weneed it by X day, but they get
room to negotiate, like okay,well, then that means I can't do
X, y and Z by this day.
I'm like, okay, likeprioritizing your stuff.
But first of all, I just wantto go on the record that I
(35:42):
thought you were saying big day,like this is a big day, and
then when Nicholas said it, Ithought she was saying bid day,
like the cheat thing, and I waslike so confused.
So thank you for clarifying.
Annon (35:56):
Yeah, it's a bid day.
It's bidding out a certainamount of time.
Gina (36:00):
No, I get it now.
Annon (36:01):
But like the audio.
Gina (36:03):
I just was like what are we even talking about?
I think most people know what abid day is, nicola, why would
you ask that?
Nicola (36:11):
Yeah, because the work is shit.
So you got to like bid day yourbat.
Annon (36:16):
Do you know what?
Well, I can go into a wholeother aspect about the bathroom
techniques that happen, whichyou know?
Gina (36:26):
Oh my God, wait what.
What's what bathroom?
Annon (36:29):
techniques.
Well, some of the people, someof the people out here can be a
bit crude.
Nicola (36:40):
You know, just like let's rip the band-aid off and
just tell us exactly what'sgoing on.
Because why?
Annon (36:48):
I've witnessed feces being wiped on the walls.
A guys walk around, they theyurinate and they don't.
They just wait.
Gina (36:59):
Why is this a farm animal?
Annon (37:03):
It's, it's, it's, it's weird.
I don't understand the culture.
Some people are very respectfuland all that, but there are
some people that literally willyou know, piss everywhere and
like.
Gina (37:14):
I said I've seen what is the point of that I have.
I don't know if they want to dothat.
Annon (37:20):
They're marking their territory.
I don't know.
Gina (37:22):
At work.
Annon (37:24):
At work.
Yes, I'm so confused.
Gina (37:26):
I'm so confused.
But like cause, like whenever Ihear about like poop being
wiped on anything.
It's either like an infant wholike got in her diaper or
whatever it was, or like thathappens in jail, like when they
don't have anything else toretaliate with.
They'll like wipe feces allover to get, like the CO's, to
come in and clean up, likethat's what I associate that
(37:46):
with.
Nicola (37:47):
Maybe this is their this is their.
Gina (37:49):
Is this their version of jail?
Annon (37:53):
It's well, I think you know, maybe it is.
I never understood it, but I'veseen a lot of feces.
Gina (38:01):
How are you still even working there.
Like if I saw one thing offeces on the wall in the woman's
bathroom, I would be out.
I would have like a completehissy fit.
Nicola (38:15):
I don't even.
You and I have spoken a lotabout poop, gina, and I wouldn't
even like I wouldn't even poop.
My poop would be so scared topoop.
Gina (38:25):
I mean if I was still like to me and I don't want to go
too much down a rabbit hole onthis.
But like if I had likecolleagues who felt okay doing
that, I would be concerned abouttheir mental health and also
like what's actually happeninghere.
I would be like how are thesepeople getting in positions of
(38:48):
power or jobs and then they alsofeel like they can wipe poop on
the wall?
I'd be out.
I'd be like this is not theright fit for me.
I don't think.
Annon (38:58):
Well, unfortunately, in my experience, you know I've
done this all my life.
Now you know I'm older and youjust kind of deal with it.
You know, like I said, back inLos Angeles there was a lot of
drug use and a lot of you knowvery.
Gina (39:18):
That was also the timing, like in the 90s, like the 80s
and 90s, like I don't think youcould have thrown a cat at
someone who was sober, like inany industry, right.
Nicola (39:28):
Like right.
Gina (39:30):
So I mean now I, at least from what I understand, it's not
as prevalent, but maybe I'mwrong Like the open drug use,
and maybe alcohol is a littlebit more okay, Just because
you're legally allowed to dothat.
I don't know.
Annon (39:47):
Well, I know well, it's definitely improved.
We do beer clock and I've heardabout stories of what people
going off on beer clock and justgetting a bit crazy.
I don't, but yeah, it'sdefinitely it's improved.
Gina (40:05):
So most of the people that I know who are in the
entertainment industry eitherare now sober or were just like
never.
Like that.
They had to get sober to stay,you know, to stay employable.
Annon (40:17):
Yeah, well, that's, yeah, that's.
The thing is is that youdefinitely need to figure out
what you want to do or you know,and the thing is that a lot of
people are that I've known, gotsober or left the industry,
right, but because it's, it'sunsustainable.
Nicola (40:38):
Right.
So would you recommend to youngpeople coming in to get into
this industry, or are you likehashtag, avoid, avoid, avoid.
Annon (40:51):
I would recommend that nobody gets into the industry
because, like I said, there isthere is a VFX soldier and the
whole idea of race to the bottom, and so you just have to keep.
You just have to keep.
You either achieve a level ofsuccess that you don't have to
(41:12):
deal with it, or you just haveto deal with it and live with
all the ramifications that youknow, transpire from you know
working long hours and deadlinesthat are unreasonable.
Gina (41:29):
Yeah.
Annon (41:31):
Do you?
feel like you're still likealways, like running, like
behind schedule or yes, unlessyou, unless you get a string of
shots that that you can gothrough and work through and get
it done in the bed.
Days aren't crazy.
You know it's, it's, you'realways, you're always running
(41:55):
and you know, at some point.
You know, if you're youngerit's a bit easier, but you know,
as you're older, it's like whatthe hell am I doing?
You know it's it's, you know,maybe I should be doing
something entirely different,you know, but I definitely would
not recommend any young peopleget involved in this industry
(42:18):
because, as I said, it's it's.
You're competing with the world, and you know, and you have no,
none of the job security andyou have none of the benefits of
of having sick time or time off, and you're, you're looking to
(42:38):
skance if you take any time offfor health or personal issues.
So, yeah, it's definitely it's,it's, it's, you know find
something.
Gina (42:50):
How glamorous is it really during like making a movie?
I have a feeling it's probablygrueling and it's awful.
Annon (42:57):
Well, it's actually not very it's.
It's not glamorous at all.
Hold on, I need to charge myphone, hello.
Gina (43:06):
Yeah, okay, bye.
Annon (43:08):
Hello, goodbye, hello.
Gina (43:10):
Bye.
I'm like terrified of evensaying anything.
Nicola (43:21):
I see this.
It's distressing.
Oh, geez, I've been warned by five people now not to
do this.
Gina (00:06):
Who listens to our stupid podcast anyway, yeah.
Nicola (00:09):
I bet you none of them listen.
Nobody listens.
I'm sure people listen.
I mean they do.
They bitch about it.
Gina (00:15):
They're like oh my god, gina, so annoying.
And I'm like yes, I am.
Nicola (00:19):
So, captain, welcome to the podcast.
Today you have got a question.
Annon (00:24):
Hello, Gina and Nicola.
Nicola (00:26):
Welcome, welcome.
I've got quite an interestingpodcast, I think, today, so we
would love to know from you whatindustry you work in and how
long have you been working inthe industry that you have come
from.
Annon (00:41):
I've worked in the entertainment industry for 30
years now.
I started back in the early 90sand I definitely went through
being from Los Angeles.
There were a lot of drugs, alot of cocaine and I started in
(01:05):
commercials and music videos andthat was wonderful, you know.
But over the years, you know,getting older, it's been a bit
more difficult.
It brought me into the filmindustry for the past 20 years.
(01:29):
So, yeah, it's been a bit of avaried ride.
You know, meeting Courtney Love, dave Matthews, outcast Big Boy
and those people that were verylovely, but yeah, I'm trying to
(01:55):
figure out how to say it.
Nicola (01:58):
You had mentioned in our catch up that you had met
Courtney Love.
Annon (02:03):
What was that?
Nicola (02:03):
like for you.
Annon (02:04):
She was.
What was really funny is therewas a producer on the video that
we worked on and he berated meand he called me a loser and he
was just an awful person.
But she finally stepped in andwas very lovely and very
(02:30):
supportive and I do know thatshe loves Prairie Winkle the
color, and I met Frances Beanand Floppy Bear, which was her
teddy bear.
But yeah, she was verywonderful and she gave me her
(02:50):
number and she was very.
You know, I can't say enoughgood things about her.
Nicola (02:55):
You gave me her number, hey, har.
Annon (02:59):
Well, nothing ever transpired from that.
But yeah, it was funny becauseJoe Gaglione, which was the
producer that berated me Becausewhat happened was Nancy
Bardowell was the originaldirector on the show and what
(03:19):
happened was I kind of wentagainst what she wanted to do
and it was part of a productioncompany, so he was more
connected to that.
But I told you know, I soldCourtney Love the idea that we
want more Alice in Wonderlandand not like anything Nirvana or
(03:41):
grunge, so yeah, but she wasshe and she was full on with it
and she loved it.
And you know, celebrity Skinwas the music video.
So yeah, you know that was avery interesting time.
Nicola (04:01):
Fair enough.
So is being berated in front ofpeople quite common.
Annon (04:08):
Yes, that's the thing is.
Especially in Los Angeles itcould be very, it's very
competitive.
So people can can get a bitopinionated about things and
especially if they think thatyou've gone over the line that
you're supposed to do.
You know it's, it's definitelythat was.
(04:32):
That was a very profoundexperience in my history.
But yeah, I mean but I'veworked with other directors on
these videos outcast bombs overBaghdad, roses and what.
Brian Barber was lovely, great,great person.
You know, that was probably theonly real kind of traumatic
(04:57):
experience where I had to likebite my tongue and just be like
just accept it because I need towork.
Nicola (05:05):
Was it was it like I'm curious to like no more about
this berating.
So was it more like you're afucking loser or you just lose
that like.
Annon (05:17):
What happened was was he is, his partner was just entered
and he was very emotional.
So just the beratement was justthe fact that I over step what
he thought, I over step myboundaries and luckily, courtney
(05:41):
love stepped in and my, mybuddy producer, tracy, stepped
in and said you don't talk tohim like that.
You know, it's like you know.
I was just like, I'll take it.
Nicola (05:52):
How old were you at this point?
Annon (05:54):
2425.
Geez.
Nicola (05:58):
So this is still kind of new to the industry or just
like yeah well, I mean, I'vebeen working.
Annon (06:06):
this is like 97, 98.
And I started back in, I think,92.
So I had some experience.
But but working with a bunch ofdifferent creatives on
different commercials and such,you know, prepared me a bit for
(06:27):
it because they could be verycaustic.
But you know that was probablythe most you got aggressive
experience I've ever had how.
Nicola (06:41):
how did you get into this?
Because it doesn't seem likeit's a like these are natural
career path into.
Annon (06:50):
What was straight it was was strangely so.
I used to.
When I was a kid I was.
I drew a lot of comics and dida lot of art.
And what was funny was,randomly I had a friend come
over and hook a stereo up in mycar.
He said, hey, you're an artist,you should go.
You know work for the company Iwork at.
(07:10):
And I was like sure.
So then I just started and justkept going.
So you know.
But my background you know.
My parents were in specialeffects as well, so I'm a bit
accustomed to just the wholedynamics of the craziness and
the drug use and everything.
(07:32):
You know they're from the 70s,so you know, in 80s, so you can
imagine some of that.
Well, my next experience was Iworked on a movie called the
Guardian, which I'm sure youprobably seen.
Nicola (07:50):
And just give it, because I'm terrible with movies
, which one was the Guardian?
The one was Josh Hartnick, andthe one with the helicopter in
the water.
Annon (07:59):
Yes, yes, yes.
So yeah, that was the next one.
And what happened was it was avery it was very small company,
so it was very, very stressful.
And the thing is, is it?
There was an autistic guy, Ithink he was autistic and I made
(08:22):
we were all getting sick and Imade a joke about somebody
touching his computer and allthat and he went off the rails
and so he spat my face, thenthrew a chair at me and then
went to lunch and me and mybuddy were like what the hell is
going on, you know, because I'dnever experienced anything like
(08:44):
that either, and so he comesback.
Nicola (08:50):
He threw a chair at you and he sped at you, I feel like
in this instance, and you werefucking with him.
Annon (08:56):
I feel like you were the talker, the only thing I made a
very simple joke about.
Hey, we've all been sick, andbecause it was like there was
like a weird, you know justsickness going on, and I said
well, you know, steve, what wasat your computer?
And you know he was touching itand he had been really sick.
(09:19):
And Steve just blew up at meand so, yeah, so then, after he
threw the chair and spit my face, we're sitting there.
Were like what the hell justhappened.
And then he comes back fromlunch and he proceeds to Lysol
everything, so much so that wehad, actually we had to leave
(09:41):
the room because it was justtoxic.
And you know, the good thing,though, is that, years later, we
work together and we're veryfriendly, and you know all right
.
Gina (09:53):
So can you tell us sort of how did you start working for
the main company we're going tobe talking about?
How did you start working withthem and were there any red
flags?
Beyond the normal Hollywood oryou know, big mover and shaker
in the entertainment?
Annon (10:13):
Yeah, well, first I randomly I was in Los Angeles
and I randomly sent this companymy resume and like an hour
later I got a response sayinghey, come out here.
And initially I was.
My contract was for sevenmonths and that was pretty much
(10:36):
it.
And you know there are verylong days.
You know we were doing eighthour weeks and plus and so much
so that sometimes we slept underour deaths.
So it was very in the earlydays.
It was very intense.
And over the years, you knowI've worked on many films and
(11:04):
over the years they've scaledeverything back due to the laws
governing.
You know the hours you can workand such.
Nicola (11:18):
But yeah, let's talk a little bit about those laws,
right?
So I've, like, this is one ofthe things that I'm really
curious about because you knowwe.
So, just to keep in mind,because we haven't really
explained, because we know thatyou were a former employee at
the place that we're going totalk about today but there was a
particular law that passed inNew Zealand called the Hobbit
(11:41):
Law.
It was formally known as theEmployment Relations Law and it
became well known across theboard in 2011.
And the law essentially,fundamentally changed the
employment landscape for filmproduction workers in the
country.
Originally, it was designed toaddress industrial disputes that
(12:02):
threatened the production ofthe Hobbit, because this, you
know, hobbit was made here.
We've had Avatar, we've had Lordof the Rings, like we've had a
lot of big, big movies made here, and so it was originally
addressed to, you know deal withthe Hobbit movie films.
And the law had a broaderimplication on contract workers
(12:25):
in the entertainment industry ingeneral.
So the key points that came outof this particular law change
was contract status.
It classified film workers ascontractors rather than
employees and unless they had awritten employment agreement
stating otherwise, this meantthat the contractors were not
(12:45):
entitled to certain legalprotections that employees
typically enjoy, such ascollective bargaining, sick
leave, holiday pay, acc,protection against unjustified
dismissal.
There was also a lack ofbargaining power.
So there's very littlebargaining power for those
contractors in New Zealand.
(13:05):
They can't engage in collectivebargaining through unions,
significant disadvantage in anindustry where the jobs are
project-based.
Job insecurity as well.
The nature of film production,you know, involves tight
schedules, we know, andproject-based work.
Annon (13:24):
Being a contractor makes this Setting the job security
even more precarious and youessentially hired for a project
or even part of a project, withno obligations for long-term
employment well, typically wewould get these if you're lucky
enough, you get a year contractin such but what they do is is
(13:49):
they treat you Like an employeebut they expect you to be a
contractor.
So any any sick time that youtake off, you know you're kind
of it's kind of frowned upon andyou know it's it's, definitely
it's, it's it's trying to haveboth worlds With, with the
(14:12):
exception of you're not anemployee.
You know it's, it's it's you'rean employee, or expected to act
like an employee, but you're acontractor and you don't get any
of those benefits of being anemployee.
Gina (14:28):
And do they do that now?
Nicola (14:30):
Yeah yes we know that we had, you know, these
implications for contractworkers, which is essentially
what this organization employees.
Now there are two, I want tosay there are two houses almost
is where the digital and there'swhere to workshop, where the
(14:50):
digital is the visual effectsarm and they're into their
computer generated imagery andthey've made movies like avatar,
avengers, most recently cocainebear, and they focus more so on
digital visual effects, media,animation and CGI, and then
(15:13):
there, is another arm calledwhere to workshop, and they
focus on practical prop designand Manufacturing and they kind
of has tangible elements.
So they have prop designmanufacturing, creature design,
special effects, makeup, andthen main projects were the
Chronicles of Narnia, mad Max,district 9, and I think the
(15:36):
reason you know kind of gettingright into the nitty gritty of
it.
Both companies are part of thewaiter group and they're very
distinct entities with their ownspecializations, but they've
both got very differentworkplace culture issues and
that's kind of what we wanted tospeak about.
They're based in Wellington,new Zealand.
(15:58):
You know, being part of hugeiconic films, won numerous
awards, but all that is all thatglitters is not called jokes
when Employees have like.
When we've spoken to previousemployees that have joined this
organization, they've describedit as the holy grail for
(16:19):
creativity.
But what's changed is thatthere is a culture of toxicity,
bullying, harassment that haveovershadowed that creative work
as well.
And While the allegations arepretty serious and varied,
there's been a lot around, youknow, kind of the revelation of
the existence of the caveman,which I'm sure you can tell us.
(16:50):
So in in 2020, two independentreviews were conducted.
You know, qc did an 11 weekreview of where the digital,
involving interviews with over200 current and former employees
.
Much like yourself, shereceived 80 complaints of
(17:11):
bullying and another 120complaints of inappropriate
conduct.
She made 17 recommendations,including developing a code of
conduct and improving andreporting mechanisms that the
management, including thefounders, had expressed
commitment to implement theserecommendations.
At where to workshop, there wasanother review held, but it was
(17:32):
the review cleared the companyallegations leading to further
controversy.
No-transcript uhrecommendations.
At Weta Workshop, there wasanother review held, but it was
the review cleared the companyallegations leading to further
controversy because Hyde foundthe allegations to be
unsubstantiated, which raisedquestions around the
investigations.
Thurriness fairness did theyinterview enough people, were
(17:55):
the right questions asked andthere was a lot of insight into
the fact that you know kind ofthey had learned from the QC
issue and started getting peopleto do NDAs, which is really
interesting as well.
Annon (18:10):
Yeah Well, we, we all, we always we have to sign it in
NDA anytime, you know we get acontract extension.
The thing is is with like the,the, the cave and such, I think
a lot of it is the pressure andworking long hours and literally
(18:33):
people have hard liquor ontheir desks and are drinking
throughout the day can make fora bit of a bit of a kind of
elastic reality around certainbehaviors.
It's definitely not, you know,you definitely don't want a
(18:58):
bottle of vodka at your desk ora full, or some people actually
had full bars.
And then you find peoplelooking at these, you know,
graphic pornography at theirdesks, just randomly, and it's
like what the hell is that?
(19:18):
It's, it's.
It wasn't really acceptable,acceptable back in America, back
in the 90s.
You know it's, it's.
Nicola (19:27):
So how did?
How did they get away with itLike what you know it's.
Annon (19:32):
So explain to Gina what the caveman is, because well,
the caveman was kind of like apost that people would do, where
they would put, you know,graphic jokes, pornography, you
know just random ideas aboutcertain women that worked at the
(19:57):
studio and you know, andbasically it was just a very it
was very boys club, you knowvery kind of like the post,
though like it was it was an, itwas an internal system, that
that that you could share thingswith yeah yeah.
(20:18):
So yeah, definitely was it.
Like I said, in that time therewas a lot of drinking, there
are very long hours and thereare some very crude people that
you know kind of abused peopleor you know had subjects or
(20:43):
topics that they would talkabout, people and such, and
these are mainly women, you knowit was trouble like
specifically for this.
No, it finally got shut down,you know, because people were
talking about it.
It's like they don't wantanyone to know this.
Nicola (21:07):
How did the cavemen kind of relate back to porn Friday?
Annon (21:12):
Well, that, that that I think those two were related.
So, yeah, the caveman thing, orcave thing, predates my time
there.
It went back to like 2005, Ithink so it's.
You know it went on until like2013, 2014, or 2015.
(21:38):
And then it was.
I guess HR got involved and waslike this is unacceptable.
You know it's.
It was definitely a verydifferent time in the company,
even though now it's become muchmore corporate and you don't
see that anywhere anymore, whichis good.
(22:01):
But yeah, it definitely.
You know it was.
It was a bit crazy back in, youknow the early days or earlier
days.
Gina (22:13):
So was it more so like that it grew out of the caveman
posts like people were puttinglike pornographic stuff in that
messaging system and then, oncethat got shut down, it kind of
morphed into what was it.
What do you guys call it?
Nicola (22:26):
Friday.
Annon (22:30):
I never partook in that but, but I witnessed it and you
know, so can you explain whatexactly a typical porn Friday
was like.
Gina (22:40):
I must know.
Annon (22:44):
Well, it's just a lot of sharing of graphic images of
women you know and and andvarious states of undress and
you know situations.
Nicola (23:00):
So, so so tactful yeah well, what's that?
Gina (23:04):
What'd you say, nicola?
So tactful, yeah, I mean Ithink I think most people know
what pornography is, but I thinkwe're.
I'm well for me.
I'm curious, like how did itbecome?
Like, did men and womenparticipate in this?
I mean I understand women weresort of on the receiving end of
like but like, how did it becomelike a company, wide thing?
Annon (23:30):
Well, the thing is is that we work in a mainly
dominated in the past by men andit's just kind of like a, you
know, it's like I would describeit as maybe a little bit of a
fraternity mentality, where it'sjust like a bunch of guys
(23:50):
sharing stuff with guys, butthere were women around which
was made them uncomfortable andwas very unpleasant and it's
like.
You know, like I said, I wasnever into that because I'm like
, I'm here to work, you know,but it was.
It was more of like kind of aboys club.
Nicola (24:10):
And anyone who did participate in porn Friday.
Annon (24:13):
Yes, Wait there?
Gina (24:18):
wait okay.
So did the majority of peopleparticipate in porn Friday?
Annon (24:23):
Well, like I said back, it was mainly men, but you know,
we had.
We had people that were gettingbusy in the showers.
Gina (24:39):
Hold on, because I was going to say, I was going to say
like there's nothing worse inmy opinion.
I'm thinking about this and I'mlike if I were to get like
super turned on at work, likewhat, what's the point, what's
the end game?
Well, that would be horrible.
I'd be like I want to go andsex with my partner, but I can't
because I'm stuck at work.
(25:00):
Like what is the?
Yeah, like I don't understand.
Nicola (25:03):
Have you got people like at work, like what's happening.
Annon (25:09):
Well, no, so so we, we, we have these showers, and a few
of the people would get busy inthe showers, and so much so
that the, the, the, the greatguy that was doing facilities he
had to clean up condoms fromthe shower floor.
Gina (25:30):
People like at least clean up after yourself.
Annon (25:31):
That's not not it's, it was.
You know it's.
It's definitely changed now.
It's not it's, it's definitelynot not that way.
But yeah, I mean it would.
You know it.
Literally people were gettingbusy with each other and the the
, the certain areas that could,and you know it you know it just
(25:56):
happened.
You know it was just like I saidI was.
I was oblivious to most of it.
You know, most of the time I'mjust like I just sit on my desk
and work.
But yeah, definitely was, youknow, a bit a bit crazy.
You know it's.
It's when there's a lot of,there's a lot of interactions
(26:20):
with people, interactions goingon with several different people
, just because they were like,you know, fuck it, you know I
can do it.
There was much more.
It was much more free kind ofgoing environment then.
But you know that's alldefinitely change very, you know
(26:41):
, drastically, which is a goodthing.
Gina (26:44):
So yeah, and what was the downfall when, like, how did how
did it change so drastically?
So it was, it was maybe fromthis review.
Nicola (26:58):
Yes there was this huge review that was done, and then a
whole bunch of stuff had tochange and, yeah, one of the
things that came out of thereview though and I'm curious to
know a little bit more aboutthis as well he's in the review
both where to workshop and whereto digital were accused of
setting unrealistic deadlines,overloading workers with work
(27:19):
and creating a culture wherehoarding work became necessary
to appear busy, and obviously,in those kinds of instances, you
know your stress level is isreally really high.
What has changed with regardsto, like that overloading of
work and that kind ofunrealistic expectation?
Because that creates its owntoxic environment.
(27:41):
It creates its own little toxicecosystem.
Annon (27:45):
In my opinion it hasn't really changed.
The bid days keep gettingshorter and they expect more,
but they still want a highperformance.
So it's in that sense it hasn'tchanged, although it's sexual
stuff and all that you know.
(28:05):
I think a lot of the bullyinghas has gone away, but you know
it's, it's now it's being run byan American company and they
expect an American kind of youjust keep going, you just keep
going.
And what they do is is a lot ofthe friends in in the past have
(28:31):
gone away because it's like youget to a certain age, it's like
I can't compete with these kidsanymore.
You know it's, it's you've donea lot of work and literally
it's it's you have to.
You're only as good as yourlast shot, or you know getting
the work done.
Nicola (28:53):
So yeah, what do you feel, especially with like due
to the nature or the competitivenature of the industry, the
scarcity of jobs, you know,obviously employees choose not
to speak up or speak about theirexperiences.
What do you think is kind ofthe mental health, of the
psychological impact of thatpersistent stress, the long
(29:16):
hours Like?
What kind of impact do youthink that has on?
You know people in on doing thework.
Annon (29:26):
Well, people will self-medicate, you know they try
to take time off and such, butit's definitely it's destructive
to your mental wellness,Because there's been an industry
wide called Race to the Bottom,where, you know, a lot of the
(29:49):
work is outsourced to India, youknow China, Korea and such, and
so what happens is it's youhave to try to keep up with all
those stressors and the thing isis it leads a lot of people to,
you know, like I said,self-medicate and such.
Nicola (30:12):
Burnout.
One of the things in the reviewis that former employees had
spoken about becomingagoraphobic and being completely
burnt out, that they left theindustry.
Yeah, agoraphobic, sorry,agoraphobic, agoraphobic and
never leaving the house again.
Annon (30:34):
And there was.
There was this person, thistrans person, that literally
just up and quit because theycouldn't deal with the
harassment and just thenegativity and, you know, along
with the work stress, so it'slike you know, it coupled all
those different things togetherand was just too toxic for the
(30:57):
person to be there and they left.
Gina (31:01):
And I feel like that they should have left.
That's terrible.
They're being like bullied andthen like overloaded.
Right yeah, and it was and itwas.
Annon (31:10):
The person was very professional and very achieved.
It was just.
It just became too much forthem to deal with.
Nicola (31:20):
So I'm also curious to know do you like in your like in
your circle, do you know anyonethat's also left the industry
because of kind of the pressuresor the the experience that
they've had?
Annon (31:34):
Yeah, a few of the people that I know.
We're just like you know what.
I don't want to do this anymore.
It's just you know, like I said, it's always, you're always
working on deadlines and notesand things, and it can get a bit
frustrating with the hours and,and you know, some people will
(32:00):
give these weird notes that makeno sense and it's it just gets
frustrating.
So, yeah, and my circle, fourpeople have left.
They're just like I'm done.
Nicola (32:14):
What do they end up doing Like?
What do they?
What do they end up like?
Annon (32:19):
Well, one one is a is an Uber driver, okay, and, and a
couple of others, literally oneof my, one of my friends.
What happened was he was he wasdriving by the road and he saw
you know the guys that are thathold the signs and he's like you
(32:41):
know what, I'd rather do thatthan do this job.
What's that?
Gina (32:47):
Like the lollipop people, like the people, yes yes, yes,
yes, he was like you knowbecause, like people on the side
of the road with signs, in hereis like you're begging.
No no, no, no no.
Nicola (33:00):
I'm thinking those people that, like, hold the
signs like an arrow and it'slike oh, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, like road workers.
Gina (33:11):
I was like he'd rather be begging for money than go to
work.
Nicola (33:15):
That's, you know, he's like, I'm like, you're like no,
no, no, he wasn't begging forwork.
Annon (33:25):
He, he, literally he looked and he saw that the guys
on the side of the road duringthe construction had a very low,
you know, aggravation level andhe was like you know what.
I'll do that instead.
Gina (33:41):
You know doing that now.
Yes.
Annon (33:44):
And is the level of?
Gina (33:46):
stress better.
Annon (33:50):
It definitely is less stressful, I think, than this
industry, and he'd been in theindustry for many, many years.
Nicola (33:59):
So he was wild.
Annon (34:01):
Yeah, now, he was just at his wit's end.
But yeah, it's definitely likeI said.
It's when they keep shirkingthe bid days and you're
competing with younger peoplethat get paid less and you get a
bit older, it gets to a pointwhere you're just a bit just
(34:26):
burnout.
Nicola (34:28):
You just want to explain for the listeners what a bid
day is, because I feel likethat's a concept in itself.
Annon (34:36):
Well, a bid day is essentially the amount of time
that they want you to complete atask so you can have a shot
that basically, they say itshould take two to three days to
do this.
But sometimes that's not trueand sometimes you get these.
(34:56):
You have a lot of things to doin a certain shot and then what
happens is they're like, well,you just need to hurry up, but
they still expect perfection.
So it's definitely the amountof time they expect you to do a
certain project or a certainshot.
Gina (35:19):
Okay, so they're like allotting.
I mean, I do this too, likewith some of the people who
report to me like I'm like weneed it by X day, but they get
room to negotiate, like okay,well, then that means I can't do
X, y and Z by this day.
I'm like, okay, likeprioritizing your stuff.
But first of all, I just wantto go on the record that I
(35:42):
thought you were saying big day,like this is a big day, and
then when Nicholas said it, Ithought she was saying bid day,
like the cheat thing, and I waslike so confused.
So thank you for clarifying.
Annon (35:56):
Yeah, it's a bid day.
It's bidding out a certainamount of time.
Gina (36:00):
No, I get it now.
Annon (36:01):
But like the audio.
Gina (36:03):
I just was like what are we even talking about?
I think most people know what abid day is, nicola, why would
you ask that?
Nicola (36:11):
Yeah, because the work is shit.
So you got to like bid day yourbat.
Annon (36:16):
Do you know what?
Well, I can go into a wholeother aspect about the bathroom
techniques that happen, whichyou know?
Gina (36:26):
Oh my God, wait what.
What's what bathroom?
Annon (36:29):
techniques.
Well, some of the people, someof the people out here can be a
bit crude.
Nicola (36:40):
You know, just like let's rip the band-aid off and
just tell us exactly what'sgoing on.
Because why?
Annon (36:48):
I've witnessed feces being wiped on the walls.
A guys walk around, they theyurinate and they don't.
They just wait.
Gina (36:59):
Why is this a farm animal?
Annon (37:03):
It's, it's, it's, it's weird.
I don't understand the culture.
Some people are very respectfuland all that, but there are
some people that literally willyou know, piss everywhere and
like.
Gina (37:14):
I said I've seen what is the point of that I have.
I don't know if they want to dothat.
Annon (37:20):
They're marking their territory.
I don't know.
Gina (37:22):
At work.
Annon (37:24):
At work.
Yes, I'm so confused.
Gina (37:26):
I'm so confused.
But like cause, like whenever Ihear about like poop being
wiped on anything.
It's either like an infant wholike got in her diaper or
whatever it was, or like thathappens in jail, like when they
don't have anything else toretaliate with.
They'll like wipe feces allover to get, like the CO's, to
come in and clean up, likethat's what I associate that
(37:46):
with.
Nicola (37:47):
Maybe this is their this is their.
Gina (37:49):
Is this their version of jail?
Annon (37:53):
It's well, I think you know, maybe it is.
I never understood it, but I'veseen a lot of feces.
Gina (38:01):
How are you still even working there.
Like if I saw one thing offeces on the wall in the woman's
bathroom, I would be out.
I would have like a completehissy fit.
Nicola (38:15):
I don't even.
You and I have spoken a lotabout poop, gina, and I wouldn't
even like I wouldn't even poop.
My poop would be so scared topoop.
Gina (38:25):
I mean if I was still like to me and I don't want to go
too much down a rabbit hole onthis.
But like if I had likecolleagues who felt okay doing
that, I would be concerned abouttheir mental health and also
like what's actually happeninghere.
I would be like how are thesepeople getting in positions of
(38:48):
power or jobs and then they alsofeel like they can wipe poop on
the wall?
I'd be out.
I'd be like this is not theright fit for me.
I don't think.
Annon (38:58):
Well, unfortunately, in my experience, you know I've
done this all my life.
Now you know I'm older and youjust kind of deal with it.
You know, like I said, back inLos Angeles there was a lot of
drug use and a lot of you knowvery.
Gina (39:18):
That was also the timing, like in the 90s, like the 80s
and 90s, like I don't think youcould have thrown a cat at
someone who was sober, like inany industry, right.
Nicola (39:28):
Like right.
Gina (39:30):
So I mean now I, at least from what I understand, it's not
as prevalent, but maybe I'mwrong Like the open drug use,
and maybe alcohol is a littlebit more okay, Just because
you're legally allowed to dothat.
I don't know.
Annon (39:47):
Well, I know well, it's definitely improved.
We do beer clock and I've heardabout stories of what people
going off on beer clock and justgetting a bit crazy.
I don't, but yeah, it'sdefinitely it's improved.
Gina (40:05):
So most of the people that I know who are in the
entertainment industry eitherare now sober or were just like
never.
Like that.
They had to get sober to stay,you know, to stay employable.
Annon (40:17):
Yeah, well, that's, yeah, that's.
The thing is is that youdefinitely need to figure out
what you want to do or you know,and the thing is that a lot of
people are that I've known, gotsober or left the industry,
right, but because it's, it'sunsustainable.
Nicola (40:38):
Right.
So would you recommend to youngpeople coming in to get into
this industry, or are you likehashtag, avoid, avoid, avoid.
Annon (40:51):
I would recommend that nobody gets into the industry
because, like I said, there isthere is a VFX soldier and the
whole idea of race to the bottom, and so you just have to keep.
You just have to keep.
You either achieve a level ofsuccess that you don't have to
(41:12):
deal with it, or you just haveto deal with it and live with
all the ramifications that youknow, transpire from you know
working long hours and deadlinesthat are unreasonable.
Gina (41:29):
Yeah.
Annon (41:31):
Do you?
feel like you're still likealways, like running, like
behind schedule or yes, unlessyou, unless you get a string of
shots that that you can gothrough and work through and get
it done in the bed.
Days aren't crazy.
You know it's, it's, you'realways, you're always running
(41:55):
and you know, at some point.
You know, if you're youngerit's a bit easier, but you know,
as you're older, it's like whatthe hell am I doing?
You know it's it's, you know,maybe I should be doing
something entirely different,you know, but I definitely would
not recommend any young peopleget involved in this industry
(42:18):
because, as I said, it's it's.
You're competing with the world, and you know, and you have no,
none of the job security andyou have none of the benefits of
of having sick time or time off, and you're, you're looking to
(42:38):
skance if you take any time offfor health or personal issues.
So, yeah, it's definitely it's,it's, it's, you know find
something.
Gina (42:50):
How glamorous is it really during like making a movie?
I have a feeling it's probablygrueling and it's awful.
Annon (42:57):
Well, it's actually not very it's.
It's not glamorous at all.
Hold on, I need to charge myphone, hello.
Gina (43:06):
Yeah, okay, bye.
Annon (43:08):
Hello, goodbye, hello.
Gina (43:10):
Bye.
I'm like terrified of evensaying anything.
Nicola (43:21):
I see this.
It's distressing.
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