December 12, 2023 • 55 mins
Ever feel like you're walking through a minefield at work? We've all been there, and our guest, Jay White, brings those experiences to life in a candid discussion about navigating toxic workplaces. From an electrician living in shipping containers to heading digital in a software company, Jay’s unique journey is a testament to resilience. We dig deep into the challenges he faced, the red flags he ignored, and the profound impact these experiences had on his personal life and work-life balance.
Our conversation doesn't stop at Jay's story. We've all had our share of awkward first days, mismatched expectations, and questionable management techniques. Drawing from these collective experiences, we underscore the importance of clear communication and setting expectations. But it's not all doom and gloom! We turn our battle scars into valuable lessons on self-reflection, empathy, and adaptability. You'll find nuggets of wisdom that will help you thrive in any work environment.
But there's more to life than work, right? We wander into a lively discussion about New York and its vibrant
Welcome to Season 2, where we embark on authentic and unfiltered conversations about life, relationships, society, and more. Our opinions are solely our own and don't represent professional advice. It's just our perspective, so form your conclusions. Heads up, this podcast may contain adult content and explicit language. Let's dive in!
Buzzsprout refer a friend!
Grab a $20 off when you sign up!
With SiteGround's Click-and-Install WordPress, we're leaving manual setup in the past. Our podcast is powered by the seamless one-click installation and WordPress Starter wizard. Choose from pro designs, add contact forms, online stores, portfolios – all automated, no tech stress. Say goodbye to mundane setups and hello to a stunning podcast platform. Dive into impactful discussions without the technical hassle. Launch your podcast website effortlessly.
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2108585/subscribe
Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/toxic_workplace_pod/
Find us in these places!
Instagram
Linkedin
Newsletter
YouTube
___________________________________________________
This podcast does not constitute professional advice (financial, legal or otherwise) and you should seek your own professional advice where required. By listening to and/or accessing this podcast , you acknowledge this, and you acknowledge that no warranty, guarantee or representation is made as to the accuracy of any information featured in this podcast.
Any action you take based on the information contained in the Podcast is strictly at your own risk, and Hosts and guests will not be liable for any losses or damages in connection with the use of the Podcast.
The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker’s own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of any organisation they are employed by. The material and information presented here is for general info
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nicola (00:00):
Well, let's get cracking Jay welcome.
Would you like to tell us whereyou're from, who you are and
kind of what industry you workin?
Jay (00:13):
Yeah, so my name is Jay White, so originally from
Ireland and kind of now livingin New Zealand, and over my
course of my career which stillseems weird to say the word
career, because it sounds likesomething my dad would say I've
lived and worked in like ninedifferent countries and a couple
of different industries.
So I actually started off as anelectrician and now I'm head of
(00:36):
digital.
So I've had my last 10 or 12years have been in product
management, digital, leadingteams in the software space.
Nicola (00:46):
Awesome.
What kind of got you into that?
Like what, what?
How did your career develop?
Jay (00:52):
How did my career develop?
So how it came from being anelectrician.
So I was like a high voltageelectrician, which was a really
specialised thing.
So we would take six monthcontracts at power stations and
I specialised in conversions, sotaking old coal, fossil fuel
power stations and making themrenewable.
(01:14):
But then you just ended up insix month, nine month contracts
and you were like blown aroundto different spaces and then you
never got to settle anywherebecause you would come in and
you were brought in by Siemensand you were probably you were
paid a bit more than the peoplethat were already there.
So there was already this likedisparity there.
And then I met my current wifeand I just got sick of my next
(01:37):
job was going to be in the but fof nowhere in Canada and I was
like I'm not moving.
I'm not doing this again,because when you go like I've
lived in here and I've livedhere, everyone thinks it's like
glamorous.
But actually there's no powerstations in metropolitan areas.
You know, if you go work in onein Adelaide, for example,
you're nowhere near any townyou're living in.
(01:58):
It's pretty much a fly in, flyout piece and you just get sick
of that after a while, and thatdoes breed a real us versus them
toxic mentality, if you everwant to see, see that I love
that you called her your currentwife Was their plan for wife
number two.
Gina (02:16):
No, but I'm her second, and so she may be the one that
she might have the plan Nicola.
Jay (02:23):
I'm not saying I have the power, and she's the one with
the history of upselling andupcycling.
Gina (02:31):
That your job?
I don't this is so obscure, butthere was like a French series
and I think it was called theWall and it was about it's like.
It described exactly in my mindwhat you were describing,
because it was like they were inthis like really remote part of
Canada or Quebec and it wasjust like all of the buildings
(02:54):
that you know were doing.
They weren't doing like whatyou were doing, they were doing
something else, but it was justvery remote and everything
existed just for the workers,but like you could only come in
by bus or come in by plane andeverything was contained to that
little area.
It was like you would getshipments in and that's it, and
(03:14):
it was like you were cut offfrom most of civilization.
Yeah, very similar.
Jay (03:19):
So I worked in one in Wales and we lived in shipping
containers.
That would fit it, yeah.
And it just creates this weirddynamic of if you're not in with
the project manager of the sitesupervisor, your life's not
going to be really good.
Like you'd be the one in thetrenches pulling the cables
while the favourites are doingthe nicer jobs.
Gina (03:42):
Got it.
That sounds terrible.
Jay (03:47):
You don't realise it when you're in it, which is the
interesting thing.
Gina (03:51):
You never do right, nicola .
Whenever you're in a toxicenvironment, it's like we've
talked about various experimentslike where you're just swimming
to stay afloat and you don'trealise how hard you're working.
You know stuff like that.
I think that's common with alot of people who experience
like toxic workplaces andburnout and stuff.
(04:11):
You don't realise how bad it istill you're out of it.
Nicola (04:14):
Yeah, until you've actually removed yourself out of
it, or if it's so toxic or soblatantly toxic you know, like
when we spoke to Kira about themicroaggressions, right,
sometimes they're really obviousand you have to call someone in
to come and kind of sort it out.
But I think that gets to likethat's a whole different kettle
(04:34):
of toxic.
Jay (04:37):
I think the one that stuck out to me the most was when my
four year old like begged me notto go to work anymore, because
I didn't play with her anymore.
I got harmed because of where Iwas working.
It was like, first of all,everyone had to be in the office
.
It was that weird thing of likeif I don't see you, you're not
(05:00):
productive.
Really weird because you don'tneed to watch me do a PowerPoint
presentation.
A lot of like product roles inparticular, like a lot of it's
thinking, so there's no actualoutput, and it's like are you
more creative walking on thewaterfront or are you going to
be more creative of someonebutch you in the box and say you
better think of the next thingright now.
(05:21):
Yeah, kind of eye-opening when,like, you've got a four year
old telling you not to go.
So they're kind of seek waysreally nicely.
Nicola (05:32):
So you know, we started a conversation around your
previous like toxic workplacethat you had come from.
So I'm kind of curious to knowwhat were some of the red.
Well, how did you get into thatjob in the first place?
We won't say where it was, asusual, but I'm curious to know
how you got into the role andwere there any red flags and
(05:54):
like the recruitment process, ordid you see any red flags right
up front, or did the red flagscome later, when you were
embedded, and then all of asudden you were like surprise
red flags everywhere.
Jay (06:09):
No, I think I ignored a lot of them throughout the process.
Gina (06:13):
Right, but looking back, do you see them now and can you
share what they are now, if youremember them?
Yeah, it was really interesting.
Jay (06:21):
So when I came out of so I did three interview stages and I
came out of two interviews andI came out of two of them going
like, well, I obviously haven'tgot this job because, like for
the first one, the personinterviewed me I didn't speak,
so it was like a half an hourinterview.
Well, it probably spoke forthree minutes of the interview
where they just told me allabout how great they were and
(06:44):
how great the culture was.
So I just came out of thatgoing like, okay, they've
obviously just filled the timeand you know we'll just move on
with our lives because itdoesn't matter.
Then it went to the next stageand the next stage and it was
like I think one of the two bigred flags now I've always looked
for is if you're going to workfor someone, ask them what their
(07:05):
hobbies are outside of work andif they don't have any, run
like just run.
Gina (07:12):
That's a good point.
Jay (07:14):
Because they're just going to be on their farm the whole
time like all they care about,or all they do is work right, or
they're not going to understandthat you will have a hobby and
why that's important to you andfor just like a life balance
period, right?
Gina (07:28):
Like if they're probably working the whole time and even
though, Nicola, we've talkedabout this before, like even
though it's not written, ifthey're your supervisor, they're
still going to expect you torespond to them.
Jay (07:40):
Yeah.
Gina (07:41):
Even if it's outside of working hours, which is like so
messed up.
Don't you think the red flagwas that second interview where
they just talked aboutthemselves and like, how, like,
if somebody is saying how greatthey are at something and you
actually put them to the tasklike over and over, I always
(08:01):
find like 99% of the timethey're not that great at it.
So if somebody is talking abouthow great their company culture
is, I would say 99% of thattime it's garbage.
Jay (08:15):
Well, that's what I was going to say, because the other
second big red flag to me iswhen I probably interviewed five
or six people that all had theexact same answer about the
company.
But what was really weird aboutit now is I never once asked
about it so, like they likeforced it into the conversation
(08:35):
that's quite funny when youthink about it now when you're
like what does the day to day ofthis role look like?
and then someone startsparroting off the team culture
and how we work, and you're like, okay, I didn't ask that.
It's weird that you had thesame answer as people, and it's
like that is really weird.
Nicola (08:55):
Thanks.
So when you got into the,obviously you got the job after
500 interviews later.
Gina (09:03):
Parated interviews later.
Nicola (09:05):
Parated interviews.
Nothing about you.
Amazed, you got the job.
Gina (09:09):
We don't care about you.
Nicola (09:11):
We don't care about you at all.
Gina (09:13):
You don't give a shit about.
You just know that the companyculture is amazing.
You're going to love it andyou're going to die loving it.
That's really what they weresaying.
We're going to fucking die here.
Jay (09:22):
Yeah, and in my final interview one of the panelists
was in their care.
You know the whole way throughit and it's like cool.
So I genuinely thought they hada preferred candidate and like
I was the one that they weredragging along to say that they
interviewed.
Gina (09:39):
There's a kind of freedom.
In that, though, isn't there adrag?
Because you're like fuck it,I'm just going to.
Like, I'm just doing it to doit, it's good, and like, if you
don't think you're the preferredcandidate, you just kind of
show up and be who you are.
Jay (09:51):
So yeah, there's a freedom in that kind of what I say to
people that I mentor.
It's like if you want to lookfor a new job, interview at a
few places that you don't reallycare about, first to get that
rustiness out, so like yourfirst interview isn't the one
you really want.
Gina (10:07):
So I kind of treated it like that and I guess like
probably to to your, to yourbenefit, which is probably one
of the reasons why you got thejob, because you were probably
just so like, like you know,what I kind of learned
afterwards is that I feel likethey didn't necessarily want
(10:30):
someone that was thatexperienced, because they were
very controlling.
Jay (10:34):
So the fact that I was probably a bit more like oh yeah
, sure, whatever, probably likeplayed into it.
Nicola (10:39):
And then when I got in and tried to do my role right,
so when you got into the roleand they were quite controlled,
tell us a little bit.
Let's deep dive into thecontrol, Into the control.
I love Nicola.
Gina (10:56):
Her catchphrases circle back deep, dive Gorgeous.
Nicola (11:01):
Wow, I love it for you that you are such an asshole.
I love this for you, thank you.
Gina (11:07):
I love you, nicola, and I love your catchphrases.
I love you too.
Nicola (11:11):
I'm sorry, I love catchphrases as well.
Gina (11:13):
Okay, but yes, I know.
So here's the thing Nicola wasgoing to say Go ahead.
Nicola (11:21):
What I was going to say was all right, you get into the
organization, tell us a littlebit about the organ, not
anything identifiable ofs, butlike, what did they do?
What were they doing?
Jay (11:35):
Well, it was weird because it was, I would say, day two or
three.
I was told here's two people onyour team you need to get rid
of.
So I hadn't even completed mylike onboarding process.
And then they yeah, manage themail.
Nicola (11:55):
Oh, do you see it?
I mean you can if you can do itwherever you want to.
Jay (12:02):
You just have to do it in a legal way.
Gina (12:05):
Were they?
Were they contract?
Were you a contractor or wereyou?
Jay (12:09):
No, it's a full time and I think, like Nicola, you can
attest to this as well as likethe way you the one of the
benefits I've worked for acouple of American companies and
one of the benefits of, I guess, at will.
Employment is like there's alot less games or someone wants
to get rid of you.
You can actually just say youhave to go on a campaign of like
(12:33):
.
Gina (12:35):
Well, right, and I think from like there's more.
Like you have to have likethings written up in your file,
like it's much, it's a lengthierprocess, whereas here they
could just decide they pay youtoo much and they found someone
who they think they can do yourjob for like half the price, so
buy yeah, yeah, it could.
Or they just decide they don'tlike you and they want to shit.
(12:55):
Can you?
It doesn't.
Jay (12:59):
Yeah.
So you have to think there's alot more nuance and kind of
stuff to do it in New Zealandand then like to the point now
where, if you get put on aperformance improvement plan,
you kind of know you're on aticking clock, whereas actually
they're supposed to be.
Hey, let's help and coach youthrough it.
(13:20):
But it's actually like you know, we're just in six months time,
we know where this is going togo, we just all have to dance,
dance around with it.
But then they would just tellyou it's kind of weird and I've
had this a little bit and Ithink I kind of remember it,
nicola you telling me it's theway it worked of how some guy at
your kindergarten just came upand said something really racist
(13:41):
to you because you were alittle white person, and so the
way that my manager would talkto me and like would tell me
stories that were bonding, I waslike what the hell do you think
about me as a person?
Like you know he would talkabout how he's been in meetings
or people have cried and he'sjust sat there going, like you
can finish crying, like thismeeting is continuing and like
(14:04):
he would talk about how like itwas.
it was like a badge of honor forhim that he'd like knew how to
get through these things and hehad like a playbook for how to
do it, which is kind ofinteresting because, you know,
they tell you that when youstare and then a year later you
see that happen to you andyou're like, okay, cool, so this
is where we're going with theplaybook on how to fire people
(14:26):
and how to manage through peoplecrying in a meeting because
you're trying to fire them.
Nicola (14:32):
Oh, it's happening to me right now.
I'm seeing the words as they're.
Gina (14:39):
But it's like I think I've said this before it's like
people tell you exactly who theyare if you listen closely
enough.
So with one of my previousemployers, I remember my first
week we were talking aboutsomeone who I nabbed as I kind
of had a feeling that they weregoing to be in a problem, and my
(15:01):
supervisor was like, well, youknow, everyone's basically
fireable, so don't worry if it.
If she doesn't step up, theydon't step up, they can be fired
.
So of course I was fired,because when you first go in,
you think about it like, well,that's not going to happen to me
, right?
That's our thought.
I feel like we think, well,we're different because we have
(15:23):
all this experience or whateverit is.
We tell ourselves but if yourcompany is saying so and so is
expendable, we're all expendable.
Listen, right.
Jay (15:34):
So that's another thing that I think we don't always you
know, and it's also beeninteresting in like a couple of
places where I felt I feel likesome bosses have already the
same book from the 1980s, like,so I felt like three or four
places where probably once aquarter there'll be an old teams
meeting about how we're havingtoo many meetings and everyone
(15:56):
has to like stop having meetingsand then the next quarter,
you're like none of you areworking well together and like
can you not see how one has hasled to the other?
And I've been in like placeswhere you've got like an
executive team and then anextended leadership team, which
is just a weird way of sayingyou're not part of the decision
(16:17):
making process, we just need todo it.
And I always wish for a coupleof them.
If they were just.
I've always said, like let meknow what the rules of the game
are and I'll decide if I want toplay them Like don't, because
it's fine to say we don't wantyou to be strategic, we don't
want you to do this, we justwant you to execute things.
Like tell people that don'ttell them that you want them to
(16:39):
come up with ideas and bestrategic and take ideas forward
.
And then just shit, can it likebehind the back and stuff.
And I won place in particularwas really weird where, like as
a member of the LT, our bosswent through all our calendars
and like why are you having oneof ones with, like the head of
engineering and I'm like well,in my role, like he's my
(17:02):
counterpart to what we do, andthen everything had to be done.
You had your three on ones iswhat I called it because you had
the executive team would comein and meet with every LT member
once a week and they would justtell us what to do and it would
depend on where you were in theday of like what you got so if
(17:22):
you're at the end of the day.
You probably got a really badsession because they were like
annoyed with everyone before youand you got the thing with you
managed to get in at 9am onMonday morning and you could get
your stuff in first, and itwould like snowball into someone
else.
Gina (17:39):
So has there been anything like so incredibly insane that
has happened to you in any ofyour toxic workplaces that you
would like to share?
Jay (17:52):
Ah, insane.
Yeah, there's one place where Iworked, where I got hired, and
in my four week notice period Ishowed up and no one from the
leadership team that hired mewas there anymore.
So during all that wasn't therea new CEO, a new, everything
like came in.
Gina (18:13):
Did they even know that they hired you?
Jay (18:15):
No.
So when I showed up, there wasno laptop, no, nothing, it was
like.
But I was in their system so Icould like get myself in the
door.
Gina (18:27):
Right.
Jay (18:29):
So I got in and I went to like where my desk was, because
I had been introduced.
I had been shown around by theteam like the week before or
something I'd come to like aFriday night drink, so I kind of
knew my way in.
But I was sitting there forabout two hours on my first day.
No one was here, did you even?
Nicola (18:45):
know who your manager was Like was there any?
Information.
Jay (18:49):
No, there wasn't anything Like there was, and then my team
that I was working with had setup my laptop, so they didn't
know.
So, like I was working in but Iwasn't in the payroll system
but I had access to like all thecode and everything and it
probably took me Were you justsitting there doing nothing.
Gina (19:07):
That's so awkward, yeah, I was sitting there.
Jay (19:09):
I just kind of joined the team meetings and, like you know
, when people walked around,like I think I don't know.
Gina (19:16):
You just ripped this way into this conference room.
See what they're chatting about.
Jay (19:21):
So I learned how to use the barista coffee machine, which
is really useful.
Gina (19:25):
That is actually.
Nicola (19:27):
Making people coffee to be like.
Oh yeah, I'm the new guy.
Jay (19:32):
What was really funny was is how I met the new H of hate.
The new head of HR was I was.
I didn't know how to use themilk for properly, and so you
know, if you don't get it right,it screams really loudly.
And she came running out tolike tell me that I didn't like
knock it off.
Then she was like who are you?
And that's when she found outthat was a new stator.
(19:54):
So if I hadn't made that badcup of coffee, I don't know when
I would have like.
I would have been in theproduction process, or if I'd
still be there tonight, justsitting there following people
into the meetings.
Gina (20:08):
That's hilarious though it is always offered that first
day when you don't know what'sgoing on and like everyone's
always so busy with their ownwork and you're just kind of
like okay, like ready to work,excited, you know.
So strange.
Jay (20:24):
And then the one that I was hired by an American company.
I was hired by a company calledYork.
I just had a laptop.
I hadn't spoken to anyone, so alaptop just showed up and
you're like cool, do I just login?
And because 9am.
But 9am Monday morning is 3pmEastern Sunday, so like they
(20:50):
weren't even working on my firstday.
So you're just sitting there inyour home office, you're in a
water bottle and you're justthere to see what happens?
Gina (20:59):
So what happened?
How did you get started withthat company?
They eventually came online.
Jay (21:04):
Yeah, well, because we had a Wellington office.
So, the CTO in Wellington, whoI'd never met during the process
, rang me up Like from the clock, when they kind of remember, I
think, when I had three failedlogin attempts and then they
realized that they're like whois?
Nicola (21:20):
this guy, yeah, trying to log on with three failed
login attempts.
Jay (21:24):
Yeah, and then so when people go, why did you only stay
for like a year at these places, just like because they didn't
know I was working there?
Gina (21:30):
I think it was not getting off to a good start.
They didn't even know theyhired me.
They didn't tell me what mywork hours were like.
I showed up and nobody, nobodyknew where to put me.
But I'm very confused.
Yeah, I remember I showed up tonobody told me this is years
ago.
Nobody told me that thiscompany that I got hired at
(21:51):
didn't work from like nine tofive.
They worked from like 1030 tolike 630.
It was like yeah, so I showed upat like 845, all early and it
was one of those like loft styleplaces in Brooklyn and you
could bring your dog to work.
So it was me and my little dogand we're sitting outside in
(22:11):
this cold, like cold loft, likethere was like it's like only
insulated in the office areaswaiting for like it, and I'm
like nobody know.
And then, like the first personwho showed up to open the
office, I was like, oh hi, I'mthe new person and they were
just like, okay, I was like thisis awkward, it was so bad
because, like they were like,and then then finally, someone
(22:33):
was like we didn't know, todaywas your first day and I was
like, huh, like I have an email.
Like nobody knew.
It was like my first day and itwas just, it was so weird and
bizarre and awkward, so Itotally understand that.
Jay (22:45):
Yeah, but especially when you're like who's your manager?
And you say their name like oh,she doesn't work here anymore.
Oh yeah, good to know Right.
Gina (22:56):
Wait, exactly, that's even worse.
I remember the manager whohired me didn't show up for like
the first week of my work andlike they didn't tell anyone
else that it was my first weekand so people were like
scrambling to like onboard me itwas.
I get that a lot.
Have you had anything like thathappen to you, Nikola?
Nicola (23:15):
Probably not really.
Gina (23:17):
No, you're just very memorable.
Nicola (23:20):
I'm always pretty memorable.
I, you know I, you know I, I, I.
Yeah.
I can't think of a time thatthat's ever happened, even with
like big restructures you knowI'm that's lucky you.
Gina (23:39):
So why don't you tell us some of the lessons you learned
then, jay, from your varioustoxic workplace experiences?
Jay (23:49):
The biggest kind of tool lesson.
What have you is that I takenow is if someone you cared
about told you what they weregoing through, what would your
advice to them be?
So, like I remember my wifelike sat me down one day.
It was just like this is enough, because, like, if I was going
(24:11):
through this, you would tell meget out.
But you don't do that foryourself and it's really weird
and it's good to try and buildthat self reflection on it.
Like you know, when you'refeeling we all have our tales
right.
So mine was.
I stay up late and I like gain.
So once I start seeing andgoing later and later into the
(24:32):
evenings that, okay, something'snot quite right.
So, being able to separateyourself from your own situation
a little bit and just go, okay,if this was my wife, brother,
sister, whoever, would I wantthem to go through this?
And if you would say no tosomeone else, why would you put
(24:53):
yourself through it?
Like, why wouldn't you takeyourself out of that situation?
So that's one big thing andanother one is just people.
One of the biggest things I'velearned is that successful
people aren't necessarily goodat their job.
They're lucky a lot of the time.
And some people are likethere's that real Venn Diagram
(25:14):
of people that are like reallysuccessful, but they're really
good and like one of thecompanies I would name was like
the best company I've everworked for, which is HazardCon,
Like and I didn't realize howgood they were.
And then I left and I'm like,should I just stay there?
Gina (25:33):
Sometimes it's the devil, you know right.
Jay (25:37):
Yeah, and one of my big issues was that I like climbed
too quickly, I was too ambitiousand I think, if I'm being self
critical, I probably got toosenior too quickly and I hadn't
built up the tools to be in thatposition.
And if you think of, like whatwe talked about a bit earlier,
about whether looking atyourself or whether you were the
(25:58):
toxic one or not.
Like so, I was in reallyturbulent companies and it was
really easy to climb off theback of other people because
they weren't happy.
So you could come in and youcould do it and you could make
it easier because you're likeessentially stepping on those
that are failing.
Nicola (26:16):
So it's actually easy to win because you're just like
you guys suck.
Anyway.
The minimum work is going tomake me look awesome, or if I do
want to get others.
Gina (26:28):
Right.
It's like quiet hiring, becauseit's like if you can just
easily do Nicholas job, who'sgot 5 million things going on,
then they'll get rid of Nikolaand you'll have a higher, maybe
a slight raise, maybe a better,you know, position, title or
whatever, and but you don'treally know what you're doing.
You just happen to be good atwhatever.
That one thing Nikola wasn'tgood at Right.
(26:49):
So it's like you just I can't,yeah.
But then it's like you have toask yourself the birds eye view
If you're doing that, otherpeople are going to do that to
you.
Jay (26:59):
Well, that was.
The other thing is like now,being in like team lead
positions for a while, is yourealize that it's really
difficult to still give yourselfto people when you've been kind
of hurt and back stabbed.
Whatever word you want, youwant to use and like trying to
be trying to not let it affectwho you are as a person is a
(27:23):
really difficult thing for me.
So you just go people becausepeople will take everything from
you.
I know it's harsh to say, butlike a lot of your work, friends
are not actually your friends.
If it comes down between youand them.
You both have mortgages to pay.
Gina (27:44):
They're going to throw you under the bus, yeah, 100%.
Jay (27:50):
It took me way longer than I would like to admit to kind of
learn that a little bit.
But then you don't think we'velearned it.
Gina (27:58):
I don't think, like even Nikola and I we talk about toxic
workplaces and if I were to go,if you were to hire me tomorrow
, j, and be like, oh, she's myfriend, I, you know, I met her
on this podcast, she's cool Iwould genuinely think that we
were friends and that might atone push comes to shove, like
what you just said.
If it's your job or my job,you're going to protect yourself
.
So it's.
(28:20):
You know.
I don't know if that's a lessonthat humans can ever learn,
unless you're sociopath Like andyou have no feel you do.
You know what I mean Like it'sa hard.
It's a hard line because it'slike our like, we have a
camaraderie people and you'dlike to think they're your
friends.
But are they real?
You know it's, it's a toughline to tell.
(28:42):
I think.
Jay (28:43):
And I think for me anyway, and I can't speak for anyone
else.
When I think back of it, it'slike all the people that rallied
around me in the past havealways been people that reported
into me and probably bounds meup to go and take the bullets,
so like I've been, told I have ahero complex.
I'm very easy to like.
(29:04):
you can wind me up and hold herand fight a million fights and I
think some people have used mynaivete against me in the past,
but what I kind of struggle withat the moment, though, is like
how do you not let that turn youoff from helping people?
Nicola (29:24):
Yeah, how do you?
How do you feel it's changedyour leadership style now?
Do you feel like you've got amore empathetic leadership style
, or do you feel like you'remore?
I don't know.
You tell me what, where, wheredo you think you've landed now?
Jay (29:38):
I think I've developed different leadership styles now,
where I think I only had onebefore and it's more like I've
got a team of 12 now and I'velearned that you can't be the
same style for each member ofthe team and it's much better
(29:58):
earlier on.
Avoid the instinct to jump inand solve things and like learn
about the, the person.
So like you've got some peoplethat need cold, hard facts and
figures, some people need acuddle, some people need to kick
up the s and you, like you,can't be everything for everyone
.
And one thing I do with theteam now that I have is if I'm
(30:20):
having a bad day, I'll tell themthat I'm having a bad day and
if we've got an upcoming one onone, I let them up out of it.
Like I'll say, hey, like I'mhaving a really bad day, but
really happy to still meet you,but I want it to be your.
Choice because I've been inloads of one on ones with my
managers where they literallysit there now until you all
(30:41):
their problems and it gets tolike 57 minutes on the clock and
they go.
Anything you want to discussyou like, yeah, I'm trying to
take a shower from all the TMI.
Yeah.
Gina (31:10):
So is there any other parting words or advice or
anything that when you werethinking of coming on, that you
really wanted to make surepeople heard?
Because what, like we touchedon earlier?
You know, nicola and I justwanted to have a?
When we started the podcast, wejust were like, let's open it
up and like, have it like justan open conversation, because I
(31:32):
didn't realize how many peopledon't talk about this subject.
But yet anyone you ask, if yousay hey, have you ever been part
of a toxic workplace?
I think everyone would say yes,at least once.
Jay (31:44):
Right, my biggest marketing advice for anyone would be.
It's not personal, it justfeels like it is because, like a
lot of the time, it's reallynot because a lot of the bosses
you've had in the past that youthink, hated you or whatever,
like they don't think about you.
Gina (32:03):
No, or they have like, or they have their own like work
trauma that has shaped them tobe the kind of boss or leader
that they are, which is stillnot personal, because that's
their own stuff that they haveto figure out.
We're just like all woundedhumans walking around trying to
pretend like we know what we'redoing and none of us do and I
(32:23):
feel like if we just all likeleveled with each other and I
was like, hey, you know, I'mgood at what I do, but sometimes
I don't know what I'm doing,but I still figure it out, like
we're cool, I feel like mostpeople would be like all right,
I get that same.
They don't feel like same.
Jay (32:39):
Yeah, and I think one of the other big lessons I learned
was that, like, two things canbe true at the same time right,
it can be a bad place for me towork, but it can be a good place
for you to work, and some ofthe mistakes I've probably made
more junior in my career, orlike trying to recruit people to
how bad it was to work, andthen that feedback gets back up
(33:01):
to the boss.
So like, don't, your experiencewon't be the same as someone
else's, so try and understandwhere they're coming from.
And some people don't careabout a bullying culture because
they know how to work withinthat they're like.
This job works for me, I knowhow to work with my boss, and
that's fine they can have that.
Gina (33:23):
It's like good for you.
Keep going on with your badself, but for me, I gotta go.
Jay (33:30):
Yeah, I gotta get out of this because it's not worth it
and then, if you feel like, it'snot worth it?
It's probably not worth it.
Gina (33:36):
It's not, or if it's affecting, like, your mental
health or your physical healthor your sleep.
I think that's also a reallybig like self-reflection box
that you can tick like okay, ismy job consistently affecting my
sleep, consistently affectingmy mood?
These are things I've learned.
(33:57):
Is my, has my physical healthgone down or up since I started?
I like, did I gain weight?
Did I lose weight?
Am I having more physicalailments?
Do I feel good?
Whatever?
I think it's just, you know,take a few minutes to check in
with yourself.
And another thing that youtouched on, jay, was how, when
you get to have a certain amountof experience, it's, it's
(34:17):
tougher for you Because peoplewill hire you thinking that you
might be the great elixir forthe problem.
But do they really want that?
And usually the answer is no.
Jay (34:32):
Yeah, I don't want a yes man.
Unless you disagree with me,then I definitely want that yes
man to come back.
It's kind of been my experience, which is really weird, yeah
exactly.
Gina (34:43):
I just want the expert to come in and tell me we're doing
everything right, and then youcan go.
If you disagree with me, basedon your experience, we don't
like you because you're whatever, arrogant, whatever insert
adjective here and you can hurryalong, hop away.
Jay (35:00):
Yeah, and then just don't chase the money.
That's what I've done and Iknow it's easy to say after the
fact and it's hard to turn itdown.
Gina (35:07):
but if someone's paying above market rate.
Jay (35:10):
That's probably a reason.
Gina (35:11):
There's a reason, yeah.
Jay (35:13):
There's a real reason for it.
Gina (35:14):
Yeah, I remember when I was leaving one of the other
places, the offer I got was likeX thousands of dollars less and
when you work in after tax andper week, it's like, would you
pay $60 a week not to be thisstressed Because once you get
over, say, 120k everything youget on top of that doesn't make
(35:36):
a huge difference in your andthat's also a whole different
other topic that I just want tobarf about, because you're right
, you could be making a decentamount, like a decent six
figures, and unless you're, it'slike from like 150, I want to
say here in America to like 300,it doesn't make that much
difference.
But then once you're over that300, that's when you feel the
(35:57):
difference.
It's like a lot, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, going back to what youwere saying, like the six,
would you pay $60 every week orevery day to not feel like this?
And what do you think?
Jay (36:12):
Well, yeah, exactly.
Gina (36:13):
Well, now the answer is yes, right, it's like fuck, yeah
, I pay $60 to not feel like apiece of shit and like shit on
all day at work.
I would I absolutely would.
Jay (36:23):
But I've gone from my daughter asking me not to go to
work to dropping her off atschool, three days away.
You know just that thing Right?
Nicola (36:30):
Yeah, well, we do have a very family-friendly work
environment.
Jay (36:35):
We do.
Gina (36:36):
You guys do now right yeah .
Jay (36:38):
It's actually just it reminded me of one of the
biggest red flags that I wouldlook for in any interview
process now was the promise of apromotion to come.
So you see it a lot in productroles of like come in as the
senior product manager and thenwithin a year we'll promote you
to head off or CPR or whateverit is, and then you just spend
(37:00):
three years chasing that grassring.
That was never going to bethere, because if they want you
to go into that role, whywouldn't they have you in there?
Gina (37:08):
Why wouldn't they just hire you for that?
Yeah?
Or like have a road map Right,like if you hit X, y and Z by
six months, then you get thisRight.
If they really that's what Ialways say If someone really
wants to do something, they'lldo it.
Jay (37:22):
Yeah.
Gina (37:22):
Right, so it's very similar.
In that situation too, andwithout trying to, move more
privilegied again.
Jay (37:29):
It's like be very wary of ESOPs, or like share programs,
because usually they have a one,two, three year cliff and what
I used to think was like oh cool, so if I stay here I'll get
this.
But sometimes it actually putsa countdown clock on your
employment.
Gina (37:49):
Before you go on.
Maybe not everyone knows whatESOP is.
I don't know if it's veryprevalent anymore here in
America, so do you want to justgive us a little?
It was like back in the day,like when my dad was working,
and it's more prevalent in likeFortune 500 companies but a lot
of startups.
I don't know if they do itanymore, so do you mind just
(38:11):
giving a brief overview?
Jay (38:13):
So for people who don't know, it's a big thing kind of
in New Zealand and Australia,because it's a way of like not
giving you 150k salary, they'llgive you 100k salary and 50,000,
say ESOP.
So ESOP is like employee shareof profits.
It can be different things.
It's like a shared scheme wherethey go.
Gina (38:33):
So how does that equate to money, or is it just stocks in
the company?
Jay (38:37):
There would be stocks that are valued at $160.
But what you don't realize islike they're not actually your
shares.
They're set aside for you andyou can buy them at that price
or at a one year, two year,three year cliff will give you X
(38:58):
amount of shares.
So you think the total packageis worth $250,000, let's say.
But you actually would neversee any of that until they sell
the company or until youactually buy into it.
But it sounds great.
It's a bit like the burnersright.
Like I would never take.
I would prefer to take If youwere to give me 100k salary and
(39:18):
50k.
I'd prefer to take 120 salaryand just forget about them.
Nicola (39:23):
Right.
Jay (39:23):
Burners is like at the end of the year, someone else can
just decide the company didn'tmeet performance targets or your
team didn't meet performancetargets, so you don't get your.
Gina (39:33):
Right, so it's subject to something that is not
necessarily a metric right.
And I also think with ESOP youhave to be proactive about it.
Right, like if you want to buythe shares you have to do it.
Or like Right, so you don'tactually get the money from it.
(39:53):
You own part of the company andthen you have to invest it on
the stock market.
So it's like an extra job in alot of ways for you and for me.
I had an ESOP at one point.
I didn't know what I was doing.
I didn't even pay attention.
Jay (40:09):
Yeah, I think it's that interesting thing of Because
also then, as you learn, moreand more companies can just
dilute shares if they want to.
Right.
Gina (40:20):
So it's basically like a really shitty workaround.
Jay (40:23):
Yeah, it's like we can give you 300 shares, but at the next
AGM we're going to release300,000 shares more of that.
Gina (40:32):
And yours are going to be worth the penny, right, and you,
literally, it's worth the penny, so fuck you.
Jay (40:38):
Yeah.
Gina (40:39):
Yeah.
Jay (40:40):
It's all that kind of Slidehand magic right.
Look over here, look over here,look over here.
Like.
Gina (40:46):
And I think a lot of I mean.
To me it just sounds like aPonzi scheme, it's like a scam.
Yeah, it's like oh, we'll giveyou stocks, but guess what?
They don't really mean anything.
So you're really only gettingpaid 90,000 a year, even though
it says compensation's 150.
Jay (41:03):
Yeah, and there's another thing.
I'm not sure exactly what it'slike with the 401k, but in New
Zealand we have our Kiwi Saber,which is our pension scheme,
retirement scheme.
So all the employees will giveyou 3% of your salary.
So if you take less of a basesalary, you're getting less
(41:24):
contributions.
So the bonuses and ESOPs won'tbe factored and I think a lot of
Right.
Gina (41:32):
So you're getting 3% of $20,000 a year, which is garbage
.
By the time you or I are readyto retire in 15 years or so,
that's going to be worth a.
You could probably buy a gallonof milk with that.
Jay (41:49):
But even if you were like, We've got a three-year vesting
cliff for ESOP.
Our average tenure is 1.8 years, you know what I mean.
It's obviously a tool.
It doesn't mean anything.
Gina (42:01):
Yeah, I know, I know.
And like here in America nobodygets a pension.
Yeah, it's kind of there issomething nice.
Jay (42:10):
Something about it as well, like if you think of working
earlier in our careers where,like, slack is great, but Slack
also doesn't let you switch off.
Gina (42:23):
Oh no, I won't use Slack.
I'm like an old school.
People probably think I'm adinosaur.
I'm like if you need me, emailme or text me, I don't care.
Jay (42:30):
Yeah, and I kind of miss.
One of the few things I missabout being an electrician is
like when you left site.
Gina (42:37):
you were done, you left.
Jay (42:39):
You know, like you don't bring a cable zone with you and
like them up a phone, yeahyou're like come on, let me
strip these wires at home.
Gina (42:45):
It's like I'll do it tomorrow.
Yeah, and that's the one thingI don't like about working from
home.
Even though I have a dedicatedroom in my house that is just my
office, I don't like being ableLike I don't not like being
able to like go to a dedicatedworkspace outside of my home.
(43:06):
I would prefer to still be inoffice, to be honest, but that's
just not.
And now that everyone's afterCOVID, now everyone's remote.
We gave up our office space inNew York, so it's just like it's
not viable right now, but Iliked it.
For me, it worked.
Jay (43:25):
I need a mix, like I need to talk to adults face to face,
like I need that body languageand I need that.
It's a bit like with the teamleadership question, like body
language is so important.
Gina (43:39):
Well, that's the thing.
Like I got hired where Nicolaand I met.
I got hired there for aconsultancy and it was all
remote and it was very heavilySlack.
So I would say something liketo one of my director reports.
They'd be like oh my God,you're killing me.
But on Slack it sounds like I'mbeing a dick.
(44:02):
But if I were to just say toyou like Jay, oh my God, you're
killing me, you would know I waslike I was just joking, like it
was something said in jest,like I didn't mean it.
Jay (44:13):
But it's what I say to my team now was like if you tell?
Me, you're fine, I have to takeyou out.
Gina (44:20):
Right.
Jay (44:20):
If we're in person together , I can see that you're not.
Gina (44:23):
If you're not, fine.
Jay (44:25):
Right Different way.
Gina (44:27):
Right and I just think it's a little green dot make,
I'm fine.
I just think it really doespeople and humans a disservice
because you don't there's a lotyou're missing, like even it,
not just tone, but like, yeah,you can pick up on nonverbal
cues and I feel like it doeseveryone a disservice not being
(44:52):
in person, even if it's justbeing in person once a month,
getting to know people and theirweirdness what else could I say
?
How everyone operates.
But it's like what you saidabout you can't be the same
leader for everyone, becausesome people need a shoulder to
cry on, some people need a kickin the ass, some people need
(45:15):
literally to be told what to do,and then other people you need
to push back and have themfigure it out on their own.
Jay (45:23):
Well, I'm a bit.
I'm a huge American footballfan, so usually-.
Nicola (45:27):
Oh are you.
Jay (45:29):
Yeah, so my aunt used to live in New York, so I used to
go back and forth over there.
Where?
Gina (45:35):
in New York, did she live?
Jay (45:37):
She lived in Manhattan because she worked as a events
manager for some seemed like areally impressive thing.
When I was younger, I thoughtwe was like for her.
Gina (45:47):
Well, because I'm from Manhattan but I was born in the
Bronx and there's a littlepocket of the Bronx that is very
Irish, like off the boat Irish,and it's called Woodlawn and I
was wondering if maybe she hadlived there, because it's highly
Irish.
Jay (46:06):
No, she didn't live there because she wanted to get away.
Yeah, but I'm really drawn toBuffalo.
Gina (46:17):
Oh wait, like the actual location or the sports team.
Jay (46:21):
Well, the sports team and the people Like well, the
animals too, but like the people.
So if you think my grandmotherwas a huge pro wrestling and
meatloaf fan, so that's likewhat I grew up with.
So if you see and I was reallyone of the most fun things about
visiting New York was just likewinding people up that the
(46:41):
bills were technically the onlyNew York team.
The other two teams were NewJersey teams and, like you can
just get all the jets.
Gina (46:48):
Well, it's stupid, they're .
They're New York Jets, new YorkGiants.
They play in Jersey, theirstadiums in Jersey.
I mean, I think at this pointwe should just like rename it
like Long Island New Jersey,because it's like Long Island,
new York and New Jersey are likekind of all fused but they're
not.
But I don't know, it's weird.
Nicola (47:07):
Well, I know about Long Island.
Is this ice tease?
Gina (47:12):
Oh, yes, and do you know anything about the Long Island
medium?
No, okay, that's the realityMedium ice tease.
No, she's this crazy lady andher name's Teresa Caputo and
she's from Long Island and she'sa medium and she could tell you
that she sees dead people andshe could talk to you you people
that passed and she has crazynails and big blonde hair and
(47:33):
she wears really crazy clothesand she talks just like this.
Nicola (47:37):
I love her already.
Gina (47:38):
I know.
Nicola (47:39):
She's my auntie.
Gina (47:41):
There's this really amazing scene where she goes
into buy a refrigerator or awashing machine and she's
wearing a gray sweatsuit, likegray top, gray bottom, with
crazy Christian Louboutin heels,and her hair is like a big
helmet.
Anyway, look it up, you'llenjoy it.
Anyway, just for your pleasure,I'm adding this right here to
(48:01):
our little chat.
Nicola (48:02):
Oh, is this the picture over there?
Just click on the link.
I'm clicking on the link.
I shouldn't click on the link.
Gina (48:08):
Because just look at the picture that comes up, oh Jesus.
Yeah, that is Teresa Caputo.
She's the Long Island medium Ifyou go to the.
Nicola (48:19):
Is it like an OnlyFans club?
Gina (48:20):
No, no, no, she is like the spirits.
Talk to me, you guys.
It's insane and you shouldwatch it.
You're a he.
Who's a he?
He's amazing, like it's so badthat it's good you know who, you
know who.
Gwen Shamblin.
You know who she is, I know,yes, I know, but Teresa Caputo
brings it.
Let me just tell you.
(48:40):
Do you have a voice again?
Nicola (48:43):
one more time, because we loved it.
Gina (48:44):
This is what you call Long Island Italian, and I know
because my mom is Long IslandItalian and I grew up around.
Oh, that's racist.
No, teresa Caputo, no.
But Teresa Caputo and herhusband was Larry, and Larry
went to LA and cheated on her.
So now they're done.
Nicola (49:02):
They're done, oh my goodness, it's me.
Gina (49:05):
Anyway, we digress.
Anyway, we should not go on thepodcast though, nicola, because
we keep getting yelled at fordigressing too much Mainly me, I
get yelled at on our I willedit this out so we stop being
yelled at.
Nicola (49:18):
But seriously, Teresa.
Gina (49:19):
Caputo, that's not funny.
Nicola (49:21):
You know what?
I know?
This is hilarious, and you knowwhat?
It's not that you're beingyelled at.
It's just that people don'tappreciate or are inclusive of
your diverse thinking.
Gina (49:34):
We could go with that.
I do tend to digress.
I am self-reflective.
The reviews are typically notwrong, but I think we're not
podcasters.
We're figuring this out as wego.
Give us a little slack.
But can we just quickly talkabout, nicola, how someone gave
(49:55):
us a one-star review and justbounced Our only one-star review
.
Someone just gave us a one-starreview and I was looking to see
if there was any.
You know how you could rate itat the bottom and explain why
you rated it that number Nothing.
I was like that is so fuckingsavage.
Good for them One-star.
(50:17):
And they were like hey, did it,we can bounce.
Nicola (50:20):
It could have been a finger slip.
Gina (50:23):
Probably not.
Probably not, because I wentback and listened to some of
ours and there's been someepisodes that I'm like this
blows, I can't get through thisand I sat through it.
So you know it is what it isLike.
We're figuring it out.
Jay (50:39):
Well, I can give you a cause for hope.
I've had customers before thathave given us a one-star review
because they thought one wasgood.
So I've had reviews of appsI've worked on where, like this
is the best product I've everhad.
Nicola (50:55):
One-star.
Jay (50:56):
One-star.
Nicola (50:58):
You know what?
One number one at the top.
Gina (51:03):
Okay, okay, all right.
Jay (51:06):
I still think that.
Gina (51:06):
I still think they were like unlistenable One bounce.
Jay (51:11):
But at least they cared enough to do that.
I just bounce.
Gina (51:15):
Yeah, I would just be like this isn't for me bounce, like
I even like the podcast that Ilistened to religiously and love
.
I don't even review them.
I don't even give them anystars, which is probably fucked
up.
Since I'm now a podcaster, Ishould probably go back and at
least give them stars.
I don't have to write anything,but.
Nicola (51:34):
In recognition, though, of J being with us today.
I did just have a look at ourpodcast chart rankings, and we
are ranking currently number 60in Ireland.
Wow, yeah, so that's that.
Gina (51:45):
And I found any 60.
All right.
Well, okay, back on topic, eventhough I feel like we should
keep in the one-star reviewconversation.
Fine.
Nicola (51:56):
We can keep it in.
Gina (51:58):
Because, like I, kind of like that person.
Nicola (52:02):
Savage.
That's a brave and bold news.
Gina (52:05):
That's what I'm saying, like I kind of respect them for
just being that savage Like fuckyou bitches.
One star out.
Jay (52:11):
Well, your whole podcast is about speaking your truth,
right?
Gina (52:14):
Right, so that's what I'm saying.
I pray I'm here for it.
Maybe I should start leavingone star reviews, like someone.
Of my favorite phrases is no isa complete sentence, and that's
the equivalent of no is acomplete sentence, I mean when
it comes to rating something,one star out Love it All right.
All right, nicola, come back,because we're going to sign off
(52:36):
now.
Thank you for your time,everyone.
Nicola (52:40):
Thank you for your time.
Gina (52:40):
Yeah, nicola knows where to find you, so we'll put all
that stuff up, right?
Jay (52:46):
She's just beside me at work, so she can definitely know
where to find me.
Nicola (52:51):
Well, it was lovely having you.
Thank you, jay, we reallyappreciate it.
Yeah, and hopefully by nextweek our episode should be live.
Jay (52:59):
Nice, awesome, thanks, team .
Gina (53:01):
Thanks, bye.
Hey in attendance here, voilà,haha.
Well, let's get cracking Jay welcome.
Would you like to tell us whereyou're from, who you are and
kind of what industry you workin?
Jay (00:13):
Yeah, so my name is Jay White, so originally from
Ireland and kind of now livingin New Zealand, and over my
course of my career which stillseems weird to say the word
career, because it sounds likesomething my dad would say I've
lived and worked in like ninedifferent countries and a couple
of different industries.
So I actually started off as anelectrician and now I'm head of
(00:36):
digital.
So I've had my last 10 or 12years have been in product
management, digital, leadingteams in the software space.
Nicola (00:46):
Awesome.
What kind of got you into that?
Like what, what?
How did your career develop?
Jay (00:52):
How did my career develop?
So how it came from being anelectrician.
So I was like a high voltageelectrician, which was a really
specialised thing.
So we would take six monthcontracts at power stations and
I specialised in conversions, sotaking old coal, fossil fuel
power stations and making themrenewable.
(01:14):
But then you just ended up insix month, nine month contracts
and you were like blown aroundto different spaces and then you
never got to settle anywherebecause you would come in and
you were brought in by Siemensand you were probably you were
paid a bit more than the peoplethat were already there.
So there was already this likedisparity there.
And then I met my current wifeand I just got sick of my next
(01:37):
job was going to be in the but fof nowhere in Canada and I was
like I'm not moving.
I'm not doing this again,because when you go like I've
lived in here and I've livedhere, everyone thinks it's like
glamorous.
But actually there's no powerstations in metropolitan areas.
You know, if you go work in onein Adelaide, for example,
you're nowhere near any townyou're living in.
(01:58):
It's pretty much a fly in, flyout piece and you just get sick
of that after a while, and thatdoes breed a real us versus them
toxic mentality, if you everwant to see, see that I love
that you called her your currentwife Was their plan for wife
number two.
Gina (02:16):
No, but I'm her second, and so she may be the one that
she might have the plan Nicola.
Jay (02:23):
I'm not saying I have the power, and she's the one with
the history of upselling andupcycling.
Gina (02:31):
That your job?
I don't this is so obscure, butthere was like a French series
and I think it was called theWall and it was about it's like.
It described exactly in my mindwhat you were describing,
because it was like they were inthis like really remote part of
Canada or Quebec and it wasjust like all of the buildings
(02:54):
that you know were doing.
They weren't doing like whatyou were doing, they were doing
something else, but it was justvery remote and everything
existed just for the workers,but like you could only come in
by bus or come in by plane andeverything was contained to that
little area.
It was like you would getshipments in and that's it, and
(03:14):
it was like you were cut offfrom most of civilization.
Yeah, very similar.
Jay (03:19):
So I worked in one in Wales and we lived in shipping
containers.
That would fit it, yeah.
And it just creates this weirddynamic of if you're not in with
the project manager of the sitesupervisor, your life's not
going to be really good.
Like you'd be the one in thetrenches pulling the cables
while the favourites are doingthe nicer jobs.
Gina (03:42):
Got it.
That sounds terrible.
Jay (03:47):
You don't realise it when you're in it, which is the
interesting thing.
Gina (03:51):
You never do right, nicola .
Whenever you're in a toxicenvironment, it's like we've
talked about various experimentslike where you're just swimming
to stay afloat and you don'trealise how hard you're working.
You know stuff like that.
I think that's common with alot of people who experience
like toxic workplaces andburnout and stuff.
(04:11):
You don't realise how bad it istill you're out of it.
Nicola (04:14):
Yeah, until you've actually removed yourself out of
it, or if it's so toxic or soblatantly toxic you know, like
when we spoke to Kira about themicroaggressions, right,
sometimes they're really obviousand you have to call someone in
to come and kind of sort it out.
But I think that gets to likethat's a whole different kettle
(04:34):
of toxic.
Jay (04:37):
I think the one that stuck out to me the most was when my
four year old like begged me notto go to work anymore, because
I didn't play with her anymore.
I got harmed because of where Iwas working.
It was like, first of all,everyone had to be in the office
.
It was that weird thing of likeif I don't see you, you're not
(05:00):
productive.
Really weird because you don'tneed to watch me do a PowerPoint
presentation.
A lot of like product roles inparticular, like a lot of it's
thinking, so there's no actualoutput, and it's like are you
more creative walking on thewaterfront or are you going to
be more creative of someonebutch you in the box and say you
better think of the next thingright now.
(05:21):
Yeah, kind of eye-opening when,like, you've got a four year
old telling you not to go.
So they're kind of seek waysreally nicely.
Nicola (05:32):
So you know, we started a conversation around your
previous like toxic workplacethat you had come from.
So I'm kind of curious to knowwhat were some of the red.
Well, how did you get into thatjob in the first place?
We won't say where it was, asusual, but I'm curious to know
how you got into the role andwere there any red flags and
(05:54):
like the recruitment process, ordid you see any red flags right
up front, or did the red flagscome later, when you were
embedded, and then all of asudden you were like surprise
red flags everywhere.
Jay (06:09):
No, I think I ignored a lot of them throughout the process.
Gina (06:13):
Right, but looking back, do you see them now and can you
share what they are now, if youremember them?
Yeah, it was really interesting.
Jay (06:21):
So when I came out of so I did three interview stages and I
came out of two interviews andI came out of two of them going
like, well, I obviously haven'tgot this job because, like for
the first one, the personinterviewed me I didn't speak,
so it was like a half an hourinterview.
Well, it probably spoke forthree minutes of the interview
where they just told me allabout how great they were and
(06:44):
how great the culture was.
So I just came out of thatgoing like, okay, they've
obviously just filled the timeand you know we'll just move on
with our lives because itdoesn't matter.
Then it went to the next stageand the next stage and it was
like I think one of the two bigred flags now I've always looked
for is if you're going to workfor someone, ask them what their
(07:05):
hobbies are outside of work andif they don't have any, run
like just run.
Gina (07:12):
That's a good point.
Jay (07:14):
Because they're just going to be on their farm the whole
time like all they care about,or all they do is work right, or
they're not going to understandthat you will have a hobby and
why that's important to you andfor just like a life balance
period, right?
Gina (07:28):
Like if they're probably working the whole time and even
though, Nicola, we've talkedabout this before, like even
though it's not written, ifthey're your supervisor, they're
still going to expect you torespond to them.
Jay (07:40):
Yeah.
Gina (07:41):
Even if it's outside of working hours, which is like so
messed up.
Don't you think the red flagwas that second interview where
they just talked aboutthemselves and like, how, like,
if somebody is saying how greatthey are at something and you
actually put them to the tasklike over and over, I always
(08:01):
find like 99% of the timethey're not that great at it.
So if somebody is talking abouthow great their company culture
is, I would say 99% of thattime it's garbage.
Jay (08:15):
Well, that's what I was going to say, because the other
second big red flag to me iswhen I probably interviewed five
or six people that all had theexact same answer about the
company.
But what was really weird aboutit now is I never once asked
about it so, like they likeforced it into the conversation
(08:35):
that's quite funny when youthink about it now when you're
like what does the day to day ofthis role look like?
and then someone startsparroting off the team culture
and how we work, and you're like, okay, I didn't ask that.
It's weird that you had thesame answer as people, and it's
like that is really weird.
Nicola (08:55):
Thanks.
So when you got into the,obviously you got the job after
500 interviews later.
Gina (09:03):
Parated interviews later.
Nicola (09:05):
Parated interviews.
Nothing about you.
Amazed, you got the job.
Gina (09:09):
We don't care about you.
Nicola (09:11):
We don't care about you at all.
Gina (09:13):
You don't give a shit about.
You just know that the companyculture is amazing.
You're going to love it andyou're going to die loving it.
That's really what they weresaying.
We're going to fucking die here.
Jay (09:22):
Yeah, and in my final interview one of the panelists
was in their care.
You know the whole way throughit and it's like cool.
So I genuinely thought they hada preferred candidate and like
I was the one that they weredragging along to say that they
interviewed.
Gina (09:39):
There's a kind of freedom.
In that, though, isn't there adrag?
Because you're like fuck it,I'm just going to.
Like, I'm just doing it to doit, it's good, and like, if you
don't think you're the preferredcandidate, you just kind of
show up and be who you are.
Jay (09:51):
So yeah, there's a freedom in that kind of what I say to
people that I mentor.
It's like if you want to lookfor a new job, interview at a
few places that you don't reallycare about, first to get that
rustiness out, so like yourfirst interview isn't the one
you really want.
Gina (10:07):
So I kind of treated it like that and I guess like
probably to to your, to yourbenefit, which is probably one
of the reasons why you got thejob, because you were probably
just so like, like you know,what I kind of learned
afterwards is that I feel likethey didn't necessarily want
(10:30):
someone that was thatexperienced, because they were
very controlling.
Jay (10:34):
So the fact that I was probably a bit more like oh yeah
, sure, whatever, probably likeplayed into it.
Nicola (10:39):
And then when I got in and tried to do my role right,
so when you got into the roleand they were quite controlled,
tell us a little bit.
Let's deep dive into thecontrol, Into the control.
I love Nicola.
Gina (10:56):
Her catchphrases circle back deep, dive Gorgeous.
Nicola (11:01):
Wow, I love it for you that you are such an asshole.
I love this for you, thank you.
Gina (11:07):
I love you, nicola, and I love your catchphrases.
I love you too.
Nicola (11:11):
I'm sorry, I love catchphrases as well.
Gina (11:13):
Okay, but yes, I know.
So here's the thing Nicola wasgoing to say Go ahead.
Nicola (11:21):
What I was going to say was all right, you get into the
organization, tell us a littlebit about the organ, not
anything identifiable ofs, butlike, what did they do?
What were they doing?
Jay (11:35):
Well, it was weird because it was, I would say, day two or
three.
I was told here's two people onyour team you need to get rid
of.
So I hadn't even completed mylike onboarding process.
And then they yeah, manage themail.
Nicola (11:55):
Oh, do you see it?
I mean you can if you can do itwherever you want to.
Jay (12:02):
You just have to do it in a legal way.
Gina (12:05):
Were they?
Were they contract?
Were you a contractor or wereyou?
Jay (12:09):
No, it's a full time and I think, like Nicola, you can
attest to this as well as likethe way you the one of the
benefits I've worked for acouple of American companies and
one of the benefits of, I guess, at will.
Employment is like there's alot less games or someone wants
to get rid of you.
You can actually just say youhave to go on a campaign of like
(12:33):
.
Gina (12:35):
Well, right, and I think from like there's more.
Like you have to have likethings written up in your file,
like it's much, it's a lengthierprocess, whereas here they
could just decide they pay youtoo much and they found someone
who they think they can do yourjob for like half the price, so
buy yeah, yeah, it could.
Or they just decide they don'tlike you and they want to shit.
(12:55):
Can you?
It doesn't.
Jay (12:59):
Yeah.
So you have to think there's alot more nuance and kind of
stuff to do it in New Zealandand then like to the point now
where, if you get put on aperformance improvement plan,
you kind of know you're on aticking clock, whereas actually
they're supposed to be.
Hey, let's help and coach youthrough it.
(13:20):
But it's actually like you know, we're just in six months time,
we know where this is going togo, we just all have to dance,
dance around with it.
But then they would just tellyou it's kind of weird and I've
had this a little bit and Ithink I kind of remember it,
nicola you telling me it's theway it worked of how some guy at
your kindergarten just came upand said something really racist
(13:41):
to you because you were alittle white person, and so the
way that my manager would talkto me and like would tell me
stories that were bonding, I waslike what the hell do you think
about me as a person?
Like you know he would talkabout how he's been in meetings
or people have cried and he'sjust sat there going, like you
can finish crying, like thismeeting is continuing and like
(14:04):
he would talk about how like itwas.
it was like a badge of honor forhim that he'd like knew how to
get through these things and hehad like a playbook for how to
do it, which is kind ofinteresting because, you know,
they tell you that when youstare and then a year later you
see that happen to you andyou're like, okay, cool, so this
is where we're going with theplaybook on how to fire people
(14:26):
and how to manage through peoplecrying in a meeting because
you're trying to fire them.
Nicola (14:32):
Oh, it's happening to me right now.
I'm seeing the words as they're.
Gina (14:39):
But it's like I think I've said this before it's like
people tell you exactly who theyare if you listen closely
enough.
So with one of my previousemployers, I remember my first
week we were talking aboutsomeone who I nabbed as I kind
of had a feeling that they weregoing to be in a problem, and my
(15:01):
supervisor was like, well, youknow, everyone's basically
fireable, so don't worry if it.
If she doesn't step up, theydon't step up, they can be fired
.
So of course I was fired,because when you first go in,
you think about it like, well,that's not going to happen to me
, right?
That's our thought.
I feel like we think, well,we're different because we have
(15:23):
all this experience or whateverit is.
We tell ourselves but if yourcompany is saying so and so is
expendable, we're all expendable.
Listen, right.
Jay (15:34):
So that's another thing that I think we don't always you
know, and it's also beeninteresting in like a couple of
places where I felt I feel likesome bosses have already the
same book from the 1980s, like,so I felt like three or four
places where probably once aquarter there'll be an old teams
meeting about how we're havingtoo many meetings and everyone
(15:56):
has to like stop having meetingsand then the next quarter,
you're like none of you areworking well together and like
can you not see how one has hasled to the other?
And I've been in like placeswhere you've got like an
executive team and then anextended leadership team, which
is just a weird way of sayingyou're not part of the decision
(16:17):
making process, we just need todo it.
And I always wish for a coupleof them.
If they were just.
I've always said, like let meknow what the rules of the game
are and I'll decide if I want toplay them Like don't, because
it's fine to say we don't wantyou to be strategic, we don't
want you to do this, we justwant you to execute things.
Like tell people that don'ttell them that you want them to
(16:39):
come up with ideas and bestrategic and take ideas forward
.
And then just shit, can it likebehind the back and stuff.
And I won place in particularwas really weird where, like as
a member of the LT, our bosswent through all our calendars
and like why are you having oneof ones with, like the head of
engineering and I'm like well,in my role, like he's my
(17:02):
counterpart to what we do, andthen everything had to be done.
You had your three on ones iswhat I called it because you had
the executive team would comein and meet with every LT member
once a week and they would justtell us what to do and it would
depend on where you were in theday of like what you got so if
(17:22):
you're at the end of the day.
You probably got a really badsession because they were like
annoyed with everyone before youand you got the thing with you
managed to get in at 9am onMonday morning and you could get
your stuff in first, and itwould like snowball into someone
else.
Gina (17:39):
So has there been anything like so incredibly insane that
has happened to you in any ofyour toxic workplaces that you
would like to share?
Jay (17:52):
Ah, insane.
Yeah, there's one place where Iworked, where I got hired, and
in my four week notice period Ishowed up and no one from the
leadership team that hired mewas there anymore.
So during all that wasn't therea new CEO, a new, everything
like came in.
Gina (18:13):
Did they even know that they hired you?
Jay (18:15):
No.
So when I showed up, there wasno laptop, no, nothing, it was
like.
But I was in their system so Icould like get myself in the
door.
Gina (18:27):
Right.
Jay (18:29):
So I got in and I went to like where my desk was, because
I had been introduced.
I had been shown around by theteam like the week before or
something I'd come to like aFriday night drink, so I kind of
knew my way in.
But I was sitting there forabout two hours on my first day.
No one was here, did you even?
Nicola (18:45):
know who your manager was Like was there any?
Information.
Jay (18:49):
No, there wasn't anything Like there was, and then my team
that I was working with had setup my laptop, so they didn't
know.
So, like I was working in but Iwasn't in the payroll system
but I had access to like all thecode and everything and it
probably took me Were you justsitting there doing nothing.
Gina (19:07):
That's so awkward, yeah, I was sitting there.
Jay (19:09):
I just kind of joined the team meetings and, like you know
, when people walked around,like I think I don't know.
Gina (19:16):
You just ripped this way into this conference room.
See what they're chatting about.
Jay (19:21):
So I learned how to use the barista coffee machine, which
is really useful.
Gina (19:25):
That is actually.
Nicola (19:27):
Making people coffee to be like.
Oh yeah, I'm the new guy.
Jay (19:32):
What was really funny was is how I met the new H of hate.
The new head of HR was I was.
I didn't know how to use themilk for properly, and so you
know, if you don't get it right,it screams really loudly.
And she came running out tolike tell me that I didn't like
knock it off.
Then she was like who are you?
And that's when she found outthat was a new stator.
(19:54):
So if I hadn't made that badcup of coffee, I don't know when
I would have like.
I would have been in theproduction process, or if I'd
still be there tonight, justsitting there following people
into the meetings.
Gina (20:08):
That's hilarious though it is always offered that first
day when you don't know what'sgoing on and like everyone's
always so busy with their ownwork and you're just kind of
like okay, like ready to work,excited, you know.
So strange.
Jay (20:24):
And then the one that I was hired by an American company.
I was hired by a company calledYork.
I just had a laptop.
I hadn't spoken to anyone, so alaptop just showed up and
you're like cool, do I just login?
And because 9am.
But 9am Monday morning is 3pmEastern Sunday, so like they
(20:50):
weren't even working on my firstday.
So you're just sitting there inyour home office, you're in a
water bottle and you're justthere to see what happens?
Gina (20:59):
So what happened?
How did you get started withthat company?
They eventually came online.
Jay (21:04):
Yeah, well, because we had a Wellington office.
So, the CTO in Wellington, whoI'd never met during the process
, rang me up Like from the clock, when they kind of remember, I
think, when I had three failedlogin attempts and then they
realized that they're like whois?
Nicola (21:20):
this guy, yeah, trying to log on with three failed
login attempts.
Jay (21:24):
Yeah, and then so when people go, why did you only stay
for like a year at these places, just like because they didn't
know I was working there?
Gina (21:30):
I think it was not getting off to a good start.
They didn't even know theyhired me.
They didn't tell me what mywork hours were like.
I showed up and nobody, nobodyknew where to put me.
But I'm very confused.
Yeah, I remember I showed up tonobody told me this is years
ago.
Nobody told me that thiscompany that I got hired at
(21:51):
didn't work from like nine tofive.
They worked from like 1030 tolike 630.
It was like yeah, so I showed upat like 845, all early and it
was one of those like loft styleplaces in Brooklyn and you
could bring your dog to work.
So it was me and my little dogand we're sitting outside in
(22:11):
this cold, like cold loft, likethere was like it's like only
insulated in the office areaswaiting for like it, and I'm
like nobody know.
And then, like the first personwho showed up to open the
office, I was like, oh hi, I'mthe new person and they were
just like, okay, I was like thisis awkward, it was so bad
because, like they were like,and then then finally, someone
(22:33):
was like we didn't know, todaywas your first day and I was
like, huh, like I have an email.
Like nobody knew.
It was like my first day and itwas just, it was so weird and
bizarre and awkward, so Itotally understand that.
Jay (22:45):
Yeah, but especially when you're like who's your manager?
And you say their name like oh,she doesn't work here anymore.
Oh yeah, good to know Right.
Gina (22:56):
Wait, exactly, that's even worse.
I remember the manager whohired me didn't show up for like
the first week of my work andlike they didn't tell anyone
else that it was my first weekand so people were like
scrambling to like onboard me itwas.
I get that a lot.
Have you had anything like thathappen to you, Nikola?
Nicola (23:15):
Probably not really.
Gina (23:17):
No, you're just very memorable.
Nicola (23:20):
I'm always pretty memorable.
I, you know I, you know I, I, I.
Yeah.
I can't think of a time thatthat's ever happened, even with
like big restructures you knowI'm that's lucky you.
Gina (23:39):
So why don't you tell us some of the lessons you learned
then, jay, from your varioustoxic workplace experiences?
Jay (23:49):
The biggest kind of tool lesson.
What have you is that I takenow is if someone you cared
about told you what they weregoing through, what would your
advice to them be?
So, like I remember my wifelike sat me down one day.
It was just like this is enough, because, like, if I was going
(24:11):
through this, you would tell meget out.
But you don't do that foryourself and it's really weird
and it's good to try and buildthat self reflection on it.
Like you know, when you'refeeling we all have our tales
right.
So mine was.
I stay up late and I like gain.
So once I start seeing andgoing later and later into the
(24:32):
evenings that, okay, something'snot quite right.
So, being able to separateyourself from your own situation
a little bit and just go, okay,if this was my wife, brother,
sister, whoever, would I wantthem to go through this?
And if you would say no tosomeone else, why would you put
(24:53):
yourself through it?
Like, why wouldn't you takeyourself out of that situation?
So that's one big thing andanother one is just people.
One of the biggest things I'velearned is that successful
people aren't necessarily goodat their job.
They're lucky a lot of the time.
And some people are likethere's that real Venn Diagram
(25:14):
of people that are like reallysuccessful, but they're really
good and like one of thecompanies I would name was like
the best company I've everworked for, which is HazardCon,
Like and I didn't realize howgood they were.
And then I left and I'm like,should I just stay there?
Gina (25:33):
Sometimes it's the devil, you know right.
Jay (25:37):
Yeah, and one of my big issues was that I like climbed
too quickly, I was too ambitiousand I think, if I'm being self
critical, I probably got toosenior too quickly and I hadn't
built up the tools to be in thatposition.
And if you think of, like whatwe talked about a bit earlier,
about whether looking atyourself or whether you were the
(25:58):
toxic one or not.
Like so, I was in reallyturbulent companies and it was
really easy to climb off theback of other people because
they weren't happy.
So you could come in and youcould do it and you could make
it easier because you're likeessentially stepping on those
that are failing.
Nicola (26:16):
So it's actually easy to win because you're just like
you guys suck.
Anyway.
The minimum work is going tomake me look awesome, or if I do
want to get others.
Gina (26:28):
Right.
It's like quiet hiring, becauseit's like if you can just
easily do Nicholas job, who'sgot 5 million things going on,
then they'll get rid of Nikolaand you'll have a higher, maybe
a slight raise, maybe a better,you know, position, title or
whatever, and but you don'treally know what you're doing.
You just happen to be good atwhatever.
That one thing Nikola wasn'tgood at Right.
(26:49):
So it's like you just I can't,yeah.
But then it's like you have toask yourself the birds eye view
If you're doing that, otherpeople are going to do that to
you.
Jay (26:59):
Well, that was.
The other thing is like now,being in like team lead
positions for a while, is yourealize that it's really
difficult to still give yourselfto people when you've been kind
of hurt and back stabbed.
Whatever word you want, youwant to use and like trying to
be trying to not let it affectwho you are as a person is a
(27:23):
really difficult thing for me.
So you just go people becausepeople will take everything from
you.
I know it's harsh to say, butlike a lot of your work, friends
are not actually your friends.
If it comes down between youand them.
You both have mortgages to pay.
Gina (27:44):
They're going to throw you under the bus, yeah, 100%.
Jay (27:50):
It took me way longer than I would like to admit to kind of
learn that a little bit.
But then you don't think we'velearned it.
Gina (27:58):
I don't think, like even Nikola and I we talk about toxic
workplaces and if I were to go,if you were to hire me tomorrow
, j, and be like, oh, she's myfriend, I, you know, I met her
on this podcast, she's cool Iwould genuinely think that we
were friends and that might atone push comes to shove, like
what you just said.
If it's your job or my job,you're going to protect yourself
.
So it's.
(28:20):
You know.
I don't know if that's a lessonthat humans can ever learn,
unless you're sociopath Like andyou have no feel you do.
You know what I mean Like it'sa hard.
It's a hard line because it'slike our like, we have a
camaraderie people and you'dlike to think they're your
friends.
But are they real?
You know it's, it's a toughline to tell.
(28:42):
I think.
Jay (28:43):
And I think for me anyway, and I can't speak for anyone
else.
When I think back of it, it'slike all the people that rallied
around me in the past havealways been people that reported
into me and probably bounds meup to go and take the bullets,
so like I've been, told I have ahero complex.
I'm very easy to like.
(29:04):
you can wind me up and hold herand fight a million fights and I
think some people have used mynaivete against me in the past,
but what I kind of struggle withat the moment, though, is like
how do you not let that turn youoff from helping people?
Nicola (29:24):
Yeah, how do you?
How do you feel it's changedyour leadership style now?
Do you feel like you've got amore empathetic leadership style
, or do you feel like you'remore?
I don't know.
You tell me what, where, wheredo you think you've landed now?
Jay (29:38):
I think I've developed different leadership styles now,
where I think I only had onebefore and it's more like I've
got a team of 12 now and I'velearned that you can't be the
same style for each member ofthe team and it's much better
(29:58):
earlier on.
Avoid the instinct to jump inand solve things and like learn
about the, the person.
So like you've got some peoplethat need cold, hard facts and
figures, some people need acuddle, some people need to kick
up the s and you, like you,can't be everything for everyone
.
And one thing I do with theteam now that I have is if I'm
(30:20):
having a bad day, I'll tell themthat I'm having a bad day and
if we've got an upcoming one onone, I let them up out of it.
Like I'll say, hey, like I'mhaving a really bad day, but
really happy to still meet you,but I want it to be your.
Choice because I've been inloads of one on ones with my
managers where they literallysit there now until you all
(30:41):
their problems and it gets tolike 57 minutes on the clock and
they go.
Anything you want to discussyou like, yeah, I'm trying to
take a shower from all the TMI.
Yeah.
Gina (31:10):
So is there any other parting words or advice or
anything that when you werethinking of coming on, that you
really wanted to make surepeople heard?
Because what, like we touchedon earlier?
You know, nicola and I justwanted to have a?
When we started the podcast, wejust were like, let's open it
up and like, have it like justan open conversation, because I
(31:32):
didn't realize how many peopledon't talk about this subject.
But yet anyone you ask, if yousay hey, have you ever been part
of a toxic workplace?
I think everyone would say yes,at least once.
Jay (31:44):
Right, my biggest marketing advice for anyone would be.
It's not personal, it justfeels like it is because, like a
lot of the time, it's reallynot because a lot of the bosses
you've had in the past that youthink, hated you or whatever,
like they don't think about you.
Gina (32:03):
No, or they have like, or they have their own like work
trauma that has shaped them tobe the kind of boss or leader
that they are, which is stillnot personal, because that's
their own stuff that they haveto figure out.
We're just like all woundedhumans walking around trying to
pretend like we know what we'redoing and none of us do and I
(32:23):
feel like if we just all likeleveled with each other and I
was like, hey, you know, I'mgood at what I do, but sometimes
I don't know what I'm doing,but I still figure it out, like
we're cool, I feel like mostpeople would be like all right,
I get that same.
They don't feel like same.
Jay (32:39):
Yeah, and I think one of the other big lessons I learned
was that, like, two things canbe true at the same time right,
it can be a bad place for me towork, but it can be a good place
for you to work, and some ofthe mistakes I've probably made
more junior in my career, orlike trying to recruit people to
how bad it was to work, andthen that feedback gets back up
(33:01):
to the boss.
So like, don't, your experiencewon't be the same as someone
else's, so try and understandwhere they're coming from.
And some people don't careabout a bullying culture because
they know how to work withinthat they're like.
This job works for me, I knowhow to work with my boss, and
that's fine they can have that.
Gina (33:23):
It's like good for you.
Keep going on with your badself, but for me, I gotta go.
Jay (33:30):
Yeah, I gotta get out of this because it's not worth it
and then, if you feel like, it'snot worth it?
It's probably not worth it.
Gina (33:36):
It's not, or if it's affecting, like, your mental
health or your physical healthor your sleep.
I think that's also a reallybig like self-reflection box
that you can tick like okay, ismy job consistently affecting my
sleep, consistently affectingmy mood?
These are things I've learned.
(33:57):
Is my, has my physical healthgone down or up since I started?
I like, did I gain weight?
Did I lose weight?
Am I having more physicalailments?
Do I feel good?
Whatever?
I think it's just, you know,take a few minutes to check in
with yourself.
And another thing that youtouched on, jay, was how, when
you get to have a certain amountof experience, it's, it's
(34:17):
tougher for you Because peoplewill hire you thinking that you
might be the great elixir forthe problem.
But do they really want that?
And usually the answer is no.
Jay (34:32):
Yeah, I don't want a yes man.
Unless you disagree with me,then I definitely want that yes
man to come back.
It's kind of been my experience, which is really weird, yeah
exactly.
Gina (34:43):
I just want the expert to come in and tell me we're doing
everything right, and then youcan go.
If you disagree with me, basedon your experience, we don't
like you because you're whatever, arrogant, whatever insert
adjective here and you can hurryalong, hop away.
Jay (35:00):
Yeah, and then just don't chase the money.
That's what I've done and Iknow it's easy to say after the
fact and it's hard to turn itdown.
Gina (35:07):
but if someone's paying above market rate.
Jay (35:10):
That's probably a reason.
Gina (35:11):
There's a reason, yeah.
Jay (35:13):
There's a real reason for it.
Gina (35:14):
Yeah, I remember when I was leaving one of the other
places, the offer I got was likeX thousands of dollars less and
when you work in after tax andper week, it's like, would you
pay $60 a week not to be thisstressed Because once you get
over, say, 120k everything youget on top of that doesn't make
(35:36):
a huge difference in your andthat's also a whole different
other topic that I just want tobarf about, because you're right
, you could be making a decentamount, like a decent six
figures, and unless you're, it'slike from like 150, I want to
say here in America to like 300,it doesn't make that much
difference.
But then once you're over that300, that's when you feel the
(35:57):
difference.
It's like a lot, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, going back to what youwere saying, like the six,
would you pay $60 every week orevery day to not feel like this?
And what do you think?
Jay (36:12):
Well, yeah, exactly.
Gina (36:13):
Well, now the answer is yes, right, it's like fuck, yeah
, I pay $60 to not feel like apiece of shit and like shit on
all day at work.
I would I absolutely would.
Jay (36:23):
But I've gone from my daughter asking me not to go to
work to dropping her off atschool, three days away.
You know just that thing Right?
Nicola (36:30):
Yeah, well, we do have a very family-friendly work
environment.
Jay (36:35):
We do.
Gina (36:36):
You guys do now right yeah .
Jay (36:38):
It's actually just it reminded me of one of the
biggest red flags that I wouldlook for in any interview
process now was the promise of apromotion to come.
So you see it a lot in productroles of like come in as the
senior product manager and thenwithin a year we'll promote you
to head off or CPR or whateverit is, and then you just spend
(37:00):
three years chasing that grassring.
That was never going to bethere, because if they want you
to go into that role, whywouldn't they have you in there?
Gina (37:08):
Why wouldn't they just hire you for that?
Yeah?
Or like have a road map Right,like if you hit X, y and Z by
six months, then you get thisRight.
If they really that's what Ialways say If someone really
wants to do something, they'lldo it.
Jay (37:22):
Yeah.
Gina (37:22):
Right, so it's very similar.
In that situation too, andwithout trying to, move more
privilegied again.
Jay (37:29):
It's like be very wary of ESOPs, or like share programs,
because usually they have a one,two, three year cliff and what
I used to think was like oh cool, so if I stay here I'll get
this.
But sometimes it actually putsa countdown clock on your
employment.
Gina (37:49):
Before you go on.
Maybe not everyone knows whatESOP is.
I don't know if it's veryprevalent anymore here in
America, so do you want to justgive us a little?
It was like back in the day,like when my dad was working,
and it's more prevalent in likeFortune 500 companies but a lot
of startups.
I don't know if they do itanymore, so do you mind just
(38:11):
giving a brief overview?
Jay (38:13):
So for people who don't know, it's a big thing kind of
in New Zealand and Australia,because it's a way of like not
giving you 150k salary, they'llgive you 100k salary and 50,000,
say ESOP.
So ESOP is like employee shareof profits.
It can be different things.
It's like a shared scheme wherethey go.
Gina (38:33):
So how does that equate to money, or is it just stocks in
the company?
Jay (38:37):
There would be stocks that are valued at $160.
But what you don't realize islike they're not actually your
shares.
They're set aside for you andyou can buy them at that price
or at a one year, two year,three year cliff will give you X
(38:58):
amount of shares.
So you think the total packageis worth $250,000, let's say.
But you actually would neversee any of that until they sell
the company or until youactually buy into it.
But it sounds great.
It's a bit like the burnersright.
Like I would never take.
I would prefer to take If youwere to give me 100k salary and
(39:18):
50k.
I'd prefer to take 120 salaryand just forget about them.
Nicola (39:23):
Right.
Jay (39:23):
Burners is like at the end of the year, someone else can
just decide the company didn'tmeet performance targets or your
team didn't meet performancetargets, so you don't get your.
Gina (39:33):
Right, so it's subject to something that is not
necessarily a metric right.
And I also think with ESOP youhave to be proactive about it.
Right, like if you want to buythe shares you have to do it.
Or like Right, so you don'tactually get the money from it.
(39:53):
You own part of the company andthen you have to invest it on
the stock market.
So it's like an extra job in alot of ways for you and for me.
I had an ESOP at one point.
I didn't know what I was doing.
I didn't even pay attention.
Jay (40:09):
Yeah, I think it's that interesting thing of Because
also then, as you learn, moreand more companies can just
dilute shares if they want to.
Right.
Gina (40:20):
So it's basically like a really shitty workaround.
Jay (40:23):
Yeah, it's like we can give you 300 shares, but at the next
AGM we're going to release300,000 shares more of that.
Gina (40:32):
And yours are going to be worth the penny, right, and you,
literally, it's worth the penny, so fuck you.
Jay (40:38):
Yeah.
Gina (40:39):
Yeah.
Jay (40:40):
It's all that kind of Slidehand magic right.
Look over here, look over here,look over here.
Like.
Gina (40:46):
And I think a lot of I mean.
To me it just sounds like aPonzi scheme, it's like a scam.
Yeah, it's like oh, we'll giveyou stocks, but guess what?
They don't really mean anything.
So you're really only gettingpaid 90,000 a year, even though
it says compensation's 150.
Jay (41:03):
Yeah, and there's another thing.
I'm not sure exactly what it'slike with the 401k, but in New
Zealand we have our Kiwi Saber,which is our pension scheme,
retirement scheme.
So all the employees will giveyou 3% of your salary.
So if you take less of a basesalary, you're getting less
(41:24):
contributions.
So the bonuses and ESOPs won'tbe factored and I think a lot of
Right.
Gina (41:32):
So you're getting 3% of $20,000 a year, which is garbage
.
By the time you or I are readyto retire in 15 years or so,
that's going to be worth a.
You could probably buy a gallonof milk with that.
Jay (41:49):
But even if you were like, We've got a three-year vesting
cliff for ESOP.
Our average tenure is 1.8 years, you know what I mean.
It's obviously a tool.
It doesn't mean anything.
Gina (42:01):
Yeah, I know, I know.
And like here in America nobodygets a pension.
Yeah, it's kind of there issomething nice.
Jay (42:10):
Something about it as well, like if you think of working
earlier in our careers where,like, slack is great, but Slack
also doesn't let you switch off.
Gina (42:23):
Oh no, I won't use Slack.
I'm like an old school.
People probably think I'm adinosaur.
I'm like if you need me, emailme or text me, I don't care.
Jay (42:30):
Yeah, and I kind of miss.
One of the few things I missabout being an electrician is
like when you left site.
Gina (42:37):
you were done, you left.
Jay (42:39):
You know, like you don't bring a cable zone with you and
like them up a phone, yeahyou're like come on, let me
strip these wires at home.
Gina (42:45):
It's like I'll do it tomorrow.
Yeah, and that's the one thingI don't like about working from
home.
Even though I have a dedicatedroom in my house that is just my
office, I don't like being ableLike I don't not like being
able to like go to a dedicatedworkspace outside of my home.
(43:06):
I would prefer to still be inoffice, to be honest, but that's
just not.
And now that everyone's afterCOVID, now everyone's remote.
We gave up our office space inNew York, so it's just like it's
not viable right now, but Iliked it.
For me, it worked.
Jay (43:25):
I need a mix, like I need to talk to adults face to face,
like I need that body languageand I need that.
It's a bit like with the teamleadership question, like body
language is so important.
Gina (43:39):
Well, that's the thing.
Like I got hired where Nicolaand I met.
I got hired there for aconsultancy and it was all
remote and it was very heavilySlack.
So I would say something liketo one of my director reports.
They'd be like oh my God,you're killing me.
But on Slack it sounds like I'mbeing a dick.
(44:02):
But if I were to just say toyou like Jay, oh my God, you're
killing me, you would know I waslike I was just joking, like it
was something said in jest,like I didn't mean it.
Jay (44:13):
But it's what I say to my team now was like if you tell?
Me, you're fine, I have to takeyou out.
Gina (44:20):
Right.
Jay (44:20):
If we're in person together , I can see that you're not.
Gina (44:23):
If you're not, fine.
Jay (44:25):
Right Different way.
Gina (44:27):
Right and I just think it's a little green dot make,
I'm fine.
I just think it really doespeople and humans a disservice
because you don't there's a lotyou're missing, like even it,
not just tone, but like, yeah,you can pick up on nonverbal
cues and I feel like it doeseveryone a disservice not being
(44:52):
in person, even if it's justbeing in person once a month,
getting to know people and theirweirdness what else could I say
?
How everyone operates.
But it's like what you saidabout you can't be the same
leader for everyone, becausesome people need a shoulder to
cry on, some people need a kickin the ass, some people need
(45:15):
literally to be told what to do,and then other people you need
to push back and have themfigure it out on their own.
Jay (45:23):
Well, I'm a bit.
I'm a huge American footballfan, so usually-.
Nicola (45:27):
Oh are you.
Jay (45:29):
Yeah, so my aunt used to live in New York, so I used to
go back and forth over there.
Where?
Gina (45:35):
in New York, did she live?
Jay (45:37):
She lived in Manhattan because she worked as a events
manager for some seemed like areally impressive thing.
When I was younger, I thoughtwe was like for her.
Gina (45:47):
Well, because I'm from Manhattan but I was born in the
Bronx and there's a littlepocket of the Bronx that is very
Irish, like off the boat Irish,and it's called Woodlawn and I
was wondering if maybe she hadlived there, because it's highly
Irish.
Jay (46:06):
No, she didn't live there because she wanted to get away.
Yeah, but I'm really drawn toBuffalo.
Gina (46:17):
Oh wait, like the actual location or the sports team.
Jay (46:21):
Well, the sports team and the people Like well, the
animals too, but like the people.
So if you think my grandmotherwas a huge pro wrestling and
meatloaf fan, so that's likewhat I grew up with.
So if you see and I was reallyone of the most fun things about
visiting New York was just likewinding people up that the
(46:41):
bills were technically the onlyNew York team.
The other two teams were NewJersey teams and, like you can
just get all the jets.
Gina (46:48):
Well, it's stupid, they're .
They're New York Jets, new YorkGiants.
They play in Jersey, theirstadiums in Jersey.
I mean, I think at this pointwe should just like rename it
like Long Island New Jersey,because it's like Long Island,
new York and New Jersey are likekind of all fused but they're
not.
But I don't know, it's weird.
Nicola (47:07):
Well, I know about Long Island.
Is this ice tease?
Gina (47:12):
Oh, yes, and do you know anything about the Long Island
medium?
No, okay, that's the realityMedium ice tease.
No, she's this crazy lady andher name's Teresa Caputo and
she's from Long Island and she'sa medium and she could tell you
that she sees dead people andshe could talk to you you people
that passed and she has crazynails and big blonde hair and
(47:33):
she wears really crazy clothesand she talks just like this.
Nicola (47:37):
I love her already.
Gina (47:38):
I know.
Nicola (47:39):
She's my auntie.
Gina (47:41):
There's this really amazing scene where she goes
into buy a refrigerator or awashing machine and she's
wearing a gray sweatsuit, likegray top, gray bottom, with
crazy Christian Louboutin heels,and her hair is like a big
helmet.
Anyway, look it up, you'llenjoy it.
Anyway, just for your pleasure,I'm adding this right here to
(48:01):
our little chat.
Nicola (48:02):
Oh, is this the picture over there?
Just click on the link.
I'm clicking on the link.
I shouldn't click on the link.
Gina (48:08):
Because just look at the picture that comes up, oh Jesus.
Yeah, that is Teresa Caputo.
She's the Long Island medium Ifyou go to the.
Nicola (48:19):
Is it like an OnlyFans club?
Gina (48:20):
No, no, no, she is like the spirits.
Talk to me, you guys.
It's insane and you shouldwatch it.
You're a he.
Who's a he?
He's amazing, like it's so badthat it's good you know who, you
know who.
Gwen Shamblin.
You know who she is, I know,yes, I know, but Teresa Caputo
brings it.
Let me just tell you.
(48:40):
Do you have a voice again?
Nicola (48:43):
one more time, because we loved it.
Gina (48:44):
This is what you call Long Island Italian, and I know
because my mom is Long IslandItalian and I grew up around.
Oh, that's racist.
No, teresa Caputo, no.
But Teresa Caputo and herhusband was Larry, and Larry
went to LA and cheated on her.
So now they're done.
Nicola (49:02):
They're done, oh my goodness, it's me.
Gina (49:05):
Anyway, we digress.
Anyway, we should not go on thepodcast though, nicola, because
we keep getting yelled at fordigressing too much Mainly me, I
get yelled at on our I willedit this out so we stop being
yelled at.
Nicola (49:18):
But seriously, Teresa.
Gina (49:19):
Caputo, that's not funny.
Nicola (49:21):
You know what?
I know?
This is hilarious, and you knowwhat?
It's not that you're beingyelled at.
It's just that people don'tappreciate or are inclusive of
your diverse thinking.
Gina (49:34):
We could go with that.
I do tend to digress.
I am self-reflective.
The reviews are typically notwrong, but I think we're not
podcasters.
We're figuring this out as wego.
Give us a little slack.
But can we just quickly talkabout, nicola, how someone gave
(49:55):
us a one-star review and justbounced Our only one-star review
.
Someone just gave us a one-starreview and I was looking to see
if there was any.
You know how you could rate itat the bottom and explain why
you rated it that number Nothing.
I was like that is so fuckingsavage.
Good for them One-star.
(50:17):
And they were like hey, did it,we can bounce.
Nicola (50:20):
It could have been a finger slip.
Gina (50:23):
Probably not.
Probably not, because I wentback and listened to some of
ours and there's been someepisodes that I'm like this
blows, I can't get through thisand I sat through it.
So you know it is what it isLike.
We're figuring it out.
Jay (50:39):
Well, I can give you a cause for hope.
I've had customers before thathave given us a one-star review
because they thought one wasgood.
So I've had reviews of appsI've worked on where, like this
is the best product I've everhad.
Nicola (50:55):
One-star.
Jay (50:56):
One-star.
Nicola (50:58):
You know what?
One number one at the top.
Gina (51:03):
Okay, okay, all right.
Jay (51:06):
I still think that.
Gina (51:06):
I still think they were like unlistenable One bounce.
Jay (51:11):
But at least they cared enough to do that.
I just bounce.
Gina (51:15):
Yeah, I would just be like this isn't for me bounce, like
I even like the podcast that Ilistened to religiously and love
.
I don't even review them.
I don't even give them anystars, which is probably fucked
up.
Since I'm now a podcaster, Ishould probably go back and at
least give them stars.
I don't have to write anything,but.
Nicola (51:34):
In recognition, though, of J being with us today.
I did just have a look at ourpodcast chart rankings, and we
are ranking currently number 60in Ireland.
Wow, yeah, so that's that.
Gina (51:45):
And I found any 60.
All right.
Well, okay, back on topic, eventhough I feel like we should
keep in the one-star reviewconversation.
Fine.
Nicola (51:56):
We can keep it in.
Gina (51:58):
Because, like I, kind of like that person.
Nicola (52:02):
Savage.
That's a brave and bold news.
Gina (52:05):
That's what I'm saying, like I kind of respect them for
just being that savage Like fuckyou bitches.
One star out.
Jay (52:11):
Well, your whole podcast is about speaking your truth,
right?
Gina (52:14):
Right, so that's what I'm saying.
I pray I'm here for it.
Maybe I should start leavingone star reviews, like someone.
Of my favorite phrases is no isa complete sentence, and that's
the equivalent of no is acomplete sentence, I mean when
it comes to rating something,one star out Love it All right.
All right, nicola, come back,because we're going to sign off
(52:36):
now.
Thank you for your time,everyone.
Nicola (52:40):
Thank you for your time.
Gina (52:40):
Yeah, nicola knows where to find you, so we'll put all
that stuff up, right?
Jay (52:46):
She's just beside me at work, so she can definitely know
where to find me.
Nicola (52:51):
Well, it was lovely having you.
Thank you, jay, we reallyappreciate it.
Yeah, and hopefully by nextweek our episode should be live.
Jay (52:59):
Nice, awesome, thanks, team .
Gina (53:01):
Thanks, bye.
Hey in attendance here, voilà,haha.
Popular Podcasts
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!