S2E4: Toxic Positivity and Recruitment Strategies: Amy's Story

Strap in for a journey chronicling the ups and downs of a job search, from the lens of Amy Find Reeves - a career seeker turned successful corporate executive, consultant, and author. Our candid conversation with Reeves, now the brain behind Job Coach Amy, is filled with her personal anecdotes of career struggles and triumphs. She generously shares insights gathered along her path, which she has distilled into her book, College to Career: Explained Tools, Skills, and Confidence for Your Job Search, a vital tool for anyone navigating the job market.

This episode also sheds light on the murky waters of gender discrimination in the corporate world. You'll hear about our shared encounters with breaking gender barriers on Wall Street during the '80s, and the many forms toxicity can take in workplaces lacking in checks and balances. We paint a vivid picture of the havoc toxic relationships can wreak, from insecure bosses to subordinates, and unethical bosses.

In our final act, listen as we dissect the importance of customizing job applications and the unspoken damage of toxic positiv

Welcome to Season 2, where we embark on authentic and unfiltered conversations about life, relationships, society, and more. Our opinions are solely our own and don't represent professional advice. It's just our perspective, so form your conclusions. Heads up, this podcast may contain adult content and explicit language. Let's dive in!
 
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Episode Transcript

Amy (00:02):
Hi guys, good morning.

Nicola (00:04):
Amy, how are you oh?

Amy (00:06):
dad, it's nice to see you.
It's nice to see you Not in asnowy West Virginia excellent
landscape.

Gina (00:16):
I'm glad to see you're actually alive.

Nicola (00:19):
Oh yes, thank you, I did make it.
It was kind of a deliverancekind of situation really last
year, but I did make it.
That's good.
Do you want me to put on a coolcolored background?
Am I okay where I am?

Amy (00:31):
Okay, yeah, you do.
You're welcome to have a coolcolor background.
We've got a spare one if youwant.
Okay, you don't have to, though, we're all good, okay, good, oh
, I'm so excited to have youhere.

Nicola (00:46):
Thank you.
Yes, I'll put on my privacy.
I do not disturb.
Okay, let's see, I've beenlistened to a couple of your
shows.
I'm going to work for Air NewZealand, I think, who has a
well-being department.
That sounds right.

Amy (01:05):
I watch everybody in New.
Zealand.

Nicola (01:09):
And that's not where you're calling in from.
Is it your state side?
Now who?

Amy (01:15):
me.
No, I'm in New.
Zealand.

Nicola (01:18):
Oh, you are Okay.

Gina (01:20):
Yeah, no, and I'm here in the United States.
Yeah, gareth, gareth Jobs soundlike I think you heard me say I
was like we don't even haveanything like that.
It's like maybe HR sort of, butit's like not like anything
like health and safety like thatin America at all and it's like

(01:40):
it's really fucked up.

Nicola (01:43):
Well, there's third party software.
Is now software now that HRpeople can buy?
Ariana Huffington famously hasone, I think it's called Thrive
Global.

Amy (01:55):
Oh yeah.

Nicola (01:56):
And as a company to work for.
It's supposed to be completelymiserable and completely like
out of whack and miserable, butit sells stuff like meditation
courses that you can get throughyour company.

Gina (02:08):
But I don't think that that's what Air New Zealand is
doing.
Like they're like.
They're like learning who theiremployees are.
They're sitting, they'relistening.
It's not a fucking softwareprogram.

Amy (02:21):
Like this, like we said, software program.

Gina (02:23):
I'm like I'm out.
So, Amy, why don't you formallyintroduce yourself, tell us who
you are, what you're up to, whyyou decided to come on the
podcast, and we will then gofrom there.

Nicola (02:39):
Okay, my name is Amy Find Reeves and I am and this is
I am 10 years into my secondentrepreneurial venture, this
one's solo.
My first one was not solo and Iam the sole proprietor of a of
Job Coach Amy, which is acoaching organization where I

(03:01):
help career seekers at alllevels find and keep jobs that
they love.
And my first love is reallyhelping kids or students, new or
recent grads, find jobs.
And I have written a book inthe last year with for my first
love, which is called College toCareer, explained Tools, skills

(03:24):
and Confidence for your JobSearch, available everywhere,
and that is a step by step guideto help people figure out what
it is that they like, doing whatjobs there are where they can
do that and then go through theprocess of structuring a job
search and developing the toolsthey need cover letter, resume,
elevator pitch, how the processworks from the other side

(03:46):
because I was a hiring managerfor two plus decades and how to
get references, all that kind ofgood stuff, all the nuts and
bolts of it.
And the reason why that is apassion for me is that I was
complete failure at it when Ifirst got out of school and I
went to a good school, I had agood GPA, I had really cute

(04:07):
skirt suits and I could barelyget an interview and I spent a
year as an and the job I wantedbecause it was the 80s, I'm very
old, I should have, I shouldhave prefaced with that I wanted
to go to Wall Street BankTraining Program and there were
many of them in those days and Icould barely get an interview.

(04:29):
So I worked as an admin for ayear because I could type 90
words a minute, which was a bigdeal back then, and I spent a
year teaching myself how tointerview and teaching myself
what you actually did on thosejobs.
And the first year next year,first time out of the gate, I
got an interview.
I got the job, turns out, I wasreally good at it, I really
liked it and I thought, oh myGod, what's?
What was the difference fromthe year before, when nobody
would interview me?

(04:50):
And the answer was there wasall, just all these things that
nobody ever taught me and therewas no resource for me.
So from that point forward in mycareer which I went on to be
significant and I really lovedand I got to do a lot of really
fun things.
I had a solid career, got to doa lot of fun things, became a,

(05:12):
had a great career as a globalmanagement consultant, became a
corporate executive, non-profitexecutive, built and sold the
company with two partners, and Ialways was a person in the
office who was.
When people came in and werelike, oh my God, my nephew wants
to get into this business, oryou know my neighbor, I'd be the
one who said, oh, I'll helpthem.
I'll help them because I justreally enjoyed it.

(05:32):
And when I and I also had tomake a difficult career shift,
when I found myself in my early40s, my husband left me for a
his college girlfriend and withleft me with my two year old and
a career that I had wastraveling all the time.
I was the main breadwinner andI suddenly couldn't be a
consultant anymore because Ineeded to be homes.

(05:55):
But I had to.
I knew how to run a consultingfirm, so I ran three offices of
a, of a of a contract researchorganization pharmaceutical firm
, which was, by the way, anindustry had never been in
before.
So I learned how to do that aswell.
And again, I didn't really findthere were any resources to help
me.
So I became the resource that Iknew I had had needed to be,

(06:15):
and so fast forward many yearsand my second husband said what
is it you really want to do?
And I said, yeah, this has beensort of my dream.
So I've been doing it eversince and I just love it.
It feels like a great gift tobe able to do it and at the same
time, I have had many, many,many ups and downs in my own

(06:37):
career.
I've been in a place where youknow I was the golden girl and
got promoted ahead of everybodyelse.
I have been fired, I have beenin many, many toxic situations
and I've kind of seen it all,which, as it turns out, is great
for everything that I am ableto share with my clients now.

(06:57):
So who knew all of those upsand downs and crazy situations
I've been in would end up payingoff in the end, because they
really do benefit the clients Ihave now, and I can look back
and say, oh, that's why thathappened.
So that's a little bit about me.

Gina (07:13):
I mean, I think that Nikola and I always like to say,
like you know, even thoughsomething bad might happen, you
don't really know how it's goingto work Like in the next day,
in the next hour, and it couldturn out to be one of the best
things that's ever happened toyou Like I like to look back at
them and be like, oh, those areall the references, right.
Like you know, like Okay, so Igot fired from this job, which

(07:37):
then led me to this, which thenled me to that, and now I'm
doing with something that I love.
And you know, even though itfeels so terrible at the time of
getting fired or you have toleave the job, or whatever the
upheaval might be in thatparticular situation, it always
does kind of end up working out.
Working out even if you can'tsee it right at that moment.
Absolutely, I'm a big proponentof that yeah.

Amy (08:01):
I'm a big proponent of that .

Gina (08:02):
So why don't?
So I, you know, when we werevetting you, I was like, oh yeah
, my first job at a college wasalso on Wall Street, like I was
a SMP building, but that waslike 2002.
So there was a little bit oftime in between us.
So why don't you explain alittle bit like what it was like

(08:23):
working back then?
Because, like you know, in the80s, that's when I grew up, and
it was all about like women canhave it all, like you know
Brookshields on the cover ofCosmo, like holding the baby in
the power suit with the bigshoulder pads, all of that.
So what was that like actuallyliving it?

Nicola (08:41):
Oh my god, now I'm a living history project, it was.
It was really weird.
I got there and thought, oh mygod, thank goodness for all the
women who came before me so Idon't have to worry about any,
you know any any discriminationon Wall Street.
Meanwhile, I got a list ofthings that I couldn't couldn't

(09:01):
wear, such as no slingback shoes, no short sleeves above my
elbow cuz.

Gina (09:09):
I'm still laughing that you actually thought like you're
like oh great, this is somodern, like that's so naive.
I love it, okay, I'm.
So.
I'm the woman who used to wearpaper like burlap sacks to work.
Now I can.

Nicola (09:24):
Yeah, okay, okay, yeah, so you had a dress, absolutely,
and you know, god forbid.
You know some of the sight ofone of my colleagues being
driven into a sexual frenzy bythe side of my elbow because I'm
wearing sleeves above my elbowand I could wear dresses.
I was at the one of our liberalplaces where I could wear

(09:46):
dresses but I had to wear adress with a jacket and there
was this Horizontal versus firstvertical rule you could wear.
You could not wear a jacket ifyou went vertically, but if you
went horizontally in thebuilding you had to wear a
jacket.
And and I, yeah, it was all.
It was very, very well laid outand I will say they were tough

(10:08):
on men too, because One of mymale colleagues at this bank and
, by the way, we had blackrotary dial phones Would had one
day he was because we all, itwas like, at least it was.
The bank was founded byAlexander Hamilton and we used
to call it Al cam high, but thatone of my colleagues was

(10:31):
getting dread.
We all had our first paychecksright, so we were hot drinking
together every night and one ofmy colleagues had a suit that
went in.
What went on drinking when Iwent in to get a suit the next
day and he wound up with likehis black, his gray charcoal
pinstripes jacket and his navypinstripe pants and by 10 30

(10:52):
that morning he had been calledinto the training program
director's office to say wedon't allow separates here, but
we can give you a loan topurchase more clothes if you
feel your wardrobe needs to beamplified.
It was.
It was very serious, but it was, yeah, for women it was.
And I became a a barrierbreaker when I in my training

(11:18):
program, got the top score inthe cash flow accounting exam
and and in 1986, which was whenthe price of the of oil fell
from $40 a barrel to $14 abarrel and the chairman of my
bank fired Everyone in the oil,gas and extractive industries
division and said, oh, just getthe person who got the top score

(11:39):
in the cash Logs accountingexam and put them in there.
Well, no one thought it wouldbe a girl Girl in the oil, gas
and extractive in this hugevision.
And there was a big Brujabecause I had to have a modesty
panel in my desk and there wereno desks with modesty panels and
so there was a Bankers desk hastwo side panels with drawers,

(12:04):
and then it just.
But this had to have a modestypanel in front so that no one
would see my legs when theywalked by.
And I later heard that thepresident of the bank had once
been walking through the mainbanking floor and walked by a?
A had been looking at someone'slegs under the desk from Sharon
admin and smacked right intoone of the main pillars on the

(12:26):
main banking floor and that waswhy there was such a big deal
that I had to have an Modestypanel.
I mean, there is.
It was just like the mostridiculous thing.
But anyway, I had a great timeand I actually got a 10 state
territory on the west coast.
I had never been west ofPennsylvania we were in had tiny
little pieces of these hugeloan agreements and these big

(12:48):
oil companies and the Treasuresof companies like Arco and
Unical and Oxenall petroleum,who many of whom don't exist
anymore, but they were big hadto sit with me for lunch once a
quarter and you know this 23 oldblonde girl.
You know it was like you wantto buy a lockbox or do a
registration in case you want todo a bond and it was.

(13:10):
It was a blast, I loved it andand the others and the the toxic
part was being the only womanwas.
You know, there was a Situationwhere, you know, like the head
of the division said to me atthe Christmas party one night,
you know, I don't think you cando as good a job as a man could
in the role that you have and Ikind of went you know what do I

(13:35):
do with that exactly?
And I kind of didn't doanything because I was getting
to fly first class all over thecountry.

Gina (13:41):
And yeah, I mean, I don't think I would have said I would
have just been like.
Yet here I am, so yeah.

Nicola (13:50):
Yeah, I'm, and I stayed there five years and I got some
good references to go this.
I learned a ton.
I got.
I have a certificate inpetroleum engineering from the
University of SouthwesternLouisiana.
The Raging Cajuns and I flew ina.
I flew in a Learjet to I saw Iwent to a gold mine.
I I Learned to play blackjackand when I'm when I'm a canovada

(14:12):
from the CFO of Pegasus Gold, Iwent to solve an extraction
electro winning plant and forcopper I saw copper wire being
made.
It was all this like from a kidfrom New.

Gina (14:23):
Jersey.
That's really cool.
Yeah, it's like cool shit yeah.

Nicola (14:28):
But I also had some.
Actually, because I apologizefor people who are listening
because you're not gonna be ableto see this, but in this, in
the start of my toxic workplacecareer, there were several
things.
I actually made you a bingocard, places and this, so you

(14:51):
can choose what you like.
I'm gonna try there, so I haveyou can't see it Down the down
the side.
I have three categories ofpotentially toxic relationships.
There's boss, right here, andsubordinates, and Then across
the top, I have insecure, overlysecure and unethical, and In

(15:17):
each of those boxes I do haveexamples you do, I do so.
Well, just these are kind ofrandom examples.
So for the insecure boss andactually this was my first boss
at this bank the quote I have inhere is your work sucks.
So the incase insecure bosswill kind of say like so when I

(15:38):
got my first Bonus at this bankjob, it arrived with a
conversation from my boss at thetime who said Well, of course
we're giving you a very nicebonus this year and bump and
raise, because our work as ateam, our work is a division and

(15:59):
the men that you report to havebeen doing so well, so you're
benefiting from that and Notright.

Gina (16:08):
There's not really your work.

Nicola (16:12):
Yeah everybody else is yeah, yeah, so you know example.
So, yeah, so this is this is.
This is for you guys.
I made it just for you so youcan choose which toxic workplace
story you, with you, would like.
I'm happy to just read out theexamples to Can I, can I hear

(16:32):
the one?

Gina (16:33):
any of the unethical ones same?
I'm on board for any, let'sstart on board.

Nicola (16:41):
Okay, so For boss unethical and doing an ethical,
so it's actually not.
I have a nonprofit example fromthere.
I worked for a time for anorganization that mostly worked
with government grants and andwas a fabulous, fabulous

(17:03):
organization that was runningthat.
Put it into low-income housing.
Okay, so that's insist.
The issue there was theorganization was so completely
and tightly controlled by twopeople and the board was
specifically chosen To beunchallenging, so it was a

(17:28):
little bit In organizationwithout any checks or balances
whatsoever.
Like none, because I work for a,not for profits, right now and
I'm like everything isscrutinized at this point, like
Isn't your not for profit, likegovernment subsidized?

Gina (17:52):
These government subsidy, but it's like, it's a charity,
like we make yeah, but I thinkonce government is involved it's
a little bit more checks andbalances.
Maybe not much, I don't know.
What do you think, amy?
Um the the?

Nicola (18:07):
The investing government money is highly successful.
Mm-hmm, and and beyond repute,be you know, beyond any kind of
um Shadow, of a doubt,successful in doing fulfilling
the mission.
Then the individuals can do oryeah, right.

(18:30):
Still, what is becomes apersonally extremely top-sec,
high turnover and verycontrolling Because the
individual is doingexceptionally good work.
That's beyond reproach.
The individual then tends toalso Run rampant in terms of I

(18:54):
can do what I want, includinggetting board community board
members oh my god, I'm gonna doso much trouble community board
members who are able to Just dowhat I want.

Gina (19:10):
Okay so Maybe I can help you out here.
One of my very first jobs likeI've been working since I was
probably like 14, right, likepart-time jobs, whatever.
So my mom is like a bigCatholic, like really big into
like God and organized religionI'm not you, I'm not but there

(19:31):
was this thing calledNeighborhood Bible study.
It was a nationwide thing Idon't know if Anyone's heard of
it, but it would go by nbs andmy mom always volunteered there.
She was like big into it and soOne summer I interned there,
like you know, I got paid,whatever and I Did, like you

(19:53):
know, admin stuff, secretarialstuff, packaging things, stuff
like that menial stuff.
So it was.
It was a not-for-profit, it wasvery small.
There was like three peoplethere.
The two main people who ran itwere a man and a woman.
They were husband and wife.
Cut to like seven years laterBecause there was no checks and

(20:13):
balances.
The husband and wife who ran ithas it had embezzled all the
money and it was a lot of moneyand it no longer exists.
So I feel like that's kind oflike you know it's, it's kind of
in the same vein of what you'retalking about, like it's a much
smaller scenario, um, but it nolonger exists like and it was a

(20:36):
big thing at the time like itwas.
This was like in the Early 90s,probably they would like you
know.
It was like every Wednesday waslike neighborhood bible study
night, you know, across thenation or wherever it was so
yeah, no, yeah I don't think,but I think it regardless of

(20:57):
religion.
Like nonprofits I think you dohave to be a little wary of,
because there aren't alwaysthose checks and balances like
who is checking?
The husband and wife who arerunning it.

Nicola (21:08):
Right, right, here's an example I feel more comfortable
with, and it's a consulting firmthat no longer exists.
But I was told by my boss.
So I was again the only womanbecause I had had this
experience in metals and Ijoined the steel organ at the
steel department consultingagency of a of a global

(21:28):
consulting firm, and we had alatin american client who they
were pretty sure was gonna Stopthe flow of money into the
organization and they told me torun down the budget as much as
I could by charging as much as Icould, and suggested I do a
study on what was a newtechnology that was being used

(21:49):
at the time.
Um, and it gave me a deadline,gave me a project, and I went
out and did it and when I cameback I was told I was not told
this until I came back was like,well, we're not actually going
to get this to the client, butwe wanted to spend down the
budget as much as possible.
So now I was in a department, ateam, in a division, and I had a

(22:13):
mentor who was, you know,running the overall company.
Like what do I do with that?
Like that felt horrible and andas an exec, and when I was
attempt, starting out like AT&Theadquarters was in the town
where my mother was living, mymy adopted hometown at the time,
and I got paid like $11 an hour.
This was in 1982, which was afortune, that's a lot.

(22:37):
Yeah, yeah, to shadow asecretary and I spent a lot of
my time reading books, readingnovels, because Everyone's in a
while.
They give me something to typeor photocopy, but like six out
of an eight out, six hours outof any day or a day, I'd bring
in a book because there'snothing for me to do and it was
just so wasteful.
So you know, you see, stufflike that, you know you're 22

(23:00):
Versus you know being in my 30sversus being in my 50s, and it's
just kind of makes you want togo so but I kind of understand,
like the whole thing with theLatin American company, like
from a business standpoint.

Gina (23:17):
I under I kind of can understand that I think it is
towing the line of what'sethical and what's unethical.
But, it's like if you'rereliant on that account and you
think that something's up withthat account, you wanna scramble
and get as much as you can,while it getting good.

Nicola (23:35):
Yeah, as long as it's not gonna be valuable.

Gina (23:39):
Well, and as long as it's above board.
So you know, maybe they mostlikely knew something that you
didn't know, like you know,maybe that obviously they pulled
the project at the last minute,or they always knew they were
gonna pull the project.
But the thing is, is what wereyour motives?
Your motives were pure, youwere doing what you were told to
do.
So it's like you can't and Idon't think you are blaming

(24:02):
yourself, but I think from abusiness standpoint it's savvy.
But I don't know, yeah, I don'tknow if I would necessarily
consider that completelyunethical.
I think it's a gray area.

Nicola (24:17):
Okay okay, See, I feel like if I was a client I would
be completely freaked out bythat.
If they're saying you need todo what we've been asking you to
See, I think I was just given ared herring of a project to do
that wasn't necessarilysomething they had been asked to
do.

Gina (24:36):
I think it's a gray area, because but if so, the way
you're saying it, though it'slike you're getting rumors that
this company that you're relyingon your partner or your client
is going to stop giving youmoney, right?
So it's like you're almost likeyou're in between a rock and a

(24:56):
hard place.
So I don't know, I think maybeI'm not understanding it
properly, but I don'tnecessarily think it's
completely unethical, because Ithink, if push came to shove,
you could give the report to theclient.

Nicola (25:09):
Yes, that's true, that's true, and it wound up being a
really good piece of work thatwe sold to other clients, which
is adds another dimension, butyeah, Right so.
Sure, we gave it to them aswell.

Gina (25:20):
Yeah, yeah, Okay.
So give us another example.

Nicola (25:25):
Well, from another, from here, the unethical, I'm sure
you've seen this one.
From the Fierce Column, I'mtaking your work, yeah, and from
the subordinates, I'mpresenting someone else's work
to you.
So both of those are.

(25:48):
I've had that happen.
I will tell you just because,before I go into examples of
those, I will tell you kind of afunny one.
I once got brought into acompany that had recently gone
from a smaller company to a muchbigger company that had made
two acquisitions at the sametime and I was brought on a
consultant to sort of do someevaluation as to who's gonna be.

(26:10):
There are big company people andsmall company people and who's
gonna be able to make thetransition to becoming a bigger
company person.
And one of the people that Irecommended letting go was the
head of HR and she thought andscreamed and she was told and
she was actually escorted out.
That was a policy at the timeand about five weeks go by and I

(26:37):
was still at the client and allof a sudden you could hear the
finance manner and this person,it was somebody.
It was one of those women whowas always in perfect makeup and
perfect care and HR people aresort of like really bright and
she and her husband worked in ITat the same company and her
partner and they had a condo inthe Caribbean somewhere and they

(27:00):
talked about going there allthe time, said they didn't have
any kids and about five weekslater you could hear the finance
manager all over the executivefloor screen oh my God, we've
been paying for the condo in theno and she no.

Gina (27:19):
Wait a second.
How did they find out Wait?

Nicola (27:25):
In America and she had, when she goes escorted out, she
kept saying let me just go backto my desk and we were like I'm
sorry I wasn't there, but sheprobably wanted to cover her ass
with the condo.
And the boyfriend was in IT andhe had helped cover up some of
the no, he's not With the role.

Gina (27:49):
Like the embezzlement to like.

Nicola (27:52):
So she, about a couple of days after she left, she got
on a plane to Venezuela and theboyfriend hadn't gotten on a
plane to Venezuela yet, but hedid like before he had gone to
Venezuela before theembezzlement came in.
So the company got extraditionand they're both in jail now

(28:15):
here.

Gina (28:16):
No, this is so good.
Did the company sell the condo?
Was the condo nice?

Nicola (28:21):
That I do not know.
I didn't stick around that far,I just heard from people that
it was.
I think that was very nice.

Gina (28:28):
It was probably gorgeous, but also what kind of jackass
comes to work and brags abouttheir condo that they're
embezzling, like, Like, like.
So I had a friend of mine whoembezzled quite a bit of money
and she did her time andeverything and she was actually

(28:49):
like I'm glad that that happened, she's a better person now.
But when she was confrontedwith the embezzlement she was
like yes, I did that, she justcopped to it.
It's like, like.

Amy (29:04):
In my Was that the friend that went to the prisons?

Gina (29:09):
Yeah, she did like seven years in Rikers.
Or not seven, maybe four.

Amy (29:14):
Did she go to Cal?

Gina (29:14):
State.
No, rikers is not federal, butbut.

Amy (29:22):
And Rikers is the one that always makes it to the movies
because it's a shit game.

Gina (29:25):
It's like the.
It's not real.
It's just like a regular prison.
It's not.
It's just because it's like NewYork City prison.

Amy (29:34):
It's on an island off of New York, it's like, yeah and I.
This is totally unrelated,totally unrelated.

Gina (29:39):
And I think eventually she probably was transferred to the
Bedford Correctional Facilityfor Women, but anyway, but hold
on, margie.

Amy (29:48):
Totally unrelated.
I'm just curious to know whatare the prisons like in America?
Like do you have Like in thebed?
I don't know.

Gina (29:57):
I've never been to prison, amy.
Have you ever been to?
Are you asking us Like we'relike the whitest white people,
like in America?
Like I think the worst thing Iever did was carry my dog on the
subway without like an approvedcarrier and I got detained by
NYPD once.
That's the worst thing I'veever done.
I'm Catholic.

Nicola (30:18):
Like you got me Like, oh yeah.

Amy (30:22):
Come on those Catholics.
We know you're getting intotrouble.
We need to get Jane on.

Gina (30:25):
We need to get Jane on.
But when that story brokebecause it actually broke in
like all the major New Yorkpapers, because she, the
employer she embezzled from, waskind of famous I was like so
pissed off.
I was like she should have madeshell companies, like she
should have hidden it better.
Like I was like no, shecouldn't have kept the time

(30:48):
going longer, like, but I lovethat the HR.
So what gave you?
What made you want, like whenyou were in there, to
restructure, not knowing thatshe was embezzling and the
company was paying for the condo, what were like kind of the red
flags that you were like she'snot gonna be able to make it.

Nicola (31:05):
She just didn't really do any work.
I mean, she it was a scientificcompany and the scientists were
all kind of out of control.
They were all kind of doingtheir own thing.
They weren't really setting upappropriate budgets.
They were.
Scientists are really difficultto manage they all.

(31:26):
What's the expression there?
Smart, nobody wants to do.
You know how lawyers have to.
Unless you're doing some reallycool aspect of law, you have to
do the same thing again andagain and again.
That's kind of the same thingwhen you're doing pharmaceutical
, preliminary pharmaceuticalresearch, like you're trying to

(31:46):
identify what research has beendone on this in the past and
what's been, what have learnedand if there's any ways to
improve on it and what theindications are.
Blah, blah, blah.
Everybody wanted to take, youknow, an ordinary problem and
turn it into a huge, uniquesituation.

(32:07):
So you know something that theywere all billed by
pharmaceutical company.
Sorry, a pharmaceutical companywould outsource a particular
research project and maybe$100,000.
And these scientists would turnit into like a $500,000 project,
so like a lot of money wouldget wasted because the hourlies
weren't being tracked and therewas no system setup and there
was no sort of performancereviews set in place.

(32:31):
So like the structure of whatthey needed to For managing 15
scientists.
Yeah, you could do it becauseit was one-on-one, but you
needed the processes and youneeded the documentation when
you were moving to 100scientists.
So that's what I mean bysomebody who's a small company
person versus a big companyperson is somebody who kind of
operates on instinct versussomebody who kind of operates

(32:52):
with processes.
Mm-hmm, okay, all right andthat's also the issue on
somebody who's who's verycontrolling over everything from
, you know, a board to anorganization as Like sort of
running it on their gut withoutany checks and balances, as

(33:13):
opposed to being able to run itthrough a structure and a
process and written documentsand guidelines and those are.
That's a gray line of unethical.
It's not a black and white lineas long as the company's doing
well according to its mission,so it's a little tangent.

Gina (33:35):
No, I think that's good.

Nicola (33:38):
But again, when I was at the bank again, that bank was
so hilarious I mean they toldyou not to lend money to men
with pinky rings Wait why?
Because they tended to A lot ofmobsters in that day wore pinky
rings, or you know.
They said, you know you heardstories, like you know, the

(33:59):
middle market people would lendmoney to somebody who had a fur
vault and there was somebody whowent to visit this fur vault
and did due diligence on 7thAvenue and counted all the furs
and you know they really likedthe people.
And then one day the officerwas walking down to 7th Avenue's

(34:20):
wife and said oh, let me justgo introduce you to this company
that I'm financing.
They have furs.
You'll like the showroom it'sreally cool Knocked up on, went
up the stairs, knocked on thedoor, completely empty.
So it was like a total scam totry to get this money.
But the furs were all rented.
It was a total scam.
I mean you heard all thesestories about you know fake ways

(34:41):
to get money out of, or linesof credit out of, bankers.
So you've got Like you've sortof heard all these crazy stories
about what people did to try toget money.
So absolutely.

Gina (34:55):
What's the craziest one that you were like a party to,
not that you were involved in,but that you knew about or that
you uncovered?
Besides the condo?
That was probably the craziest.

Nicola (35:08):
The other one.
This is more illustrative ofhow companies I always try to
tell my clients because they'llsay you know, oh, I haven't
heard from a company in a week,or I got my offer letter but I
haven't gotten anything else.
I'm like most companies arejust kind of bumping along and
they're not really run likeclockwork.

(35:29):
I don't care how good Maybesome the company is like a
Goldman Sachs or a really really, really top-level company is
really run well, but mostcompanies are just kind of
bumping along.
One of the funniest storiesI've heard is about my former
bank, which is one of the fewbanks that is still in existence
today, when there was 100commercial banks and 100.

(35:50):
There must have been 30commercial banks and commercial
bank training programs.
But Chemical Bank,manufacturers, hanover, all of
these banks that existed when inthe 80s that are no longer
there.
My bank, the Bank of New York,still exists and the reason why
it still exists is it has a hugesecurities processing clearing
center, which means that whenyou make a deposit before it

(36:13):
actually goes to your bank,it'll clear it through.
The check will clear through,has to clear through securities
processing system, which willusually mean the Bank of New
York takes a few cents, etcetera.
One of the funniest things I'veever heard was and back in
those days bank operations orback office stuff wasn't where
the best and the brightest wentWell, there was somebody who was

(36:33):
the best and the brightest whorealized that there was a lot of
money to be made there.
I can't remember the guy's name, but he was sort of like the
darling of the company, etcetera, et cetera.
So they made a lot ofinvestment in that and they're
still existing today.
Someone told me that the reasonwhy initially that investment
was made and was so profitableis that for four or five years

(36:55):
someone was coding the accountand was putting the expenses
from that check clearingoperation and overall clearing
center to the wrong expensecenter.
So the coding in the generalledger system was not going to
the check clearing andprocessing center, it was going
somewhere else.
So the operation looked like itwas 90% profitable.

Amy (37:19):
Whereas in real life.

Nicola (37:20):
It was like 20%, but someone was putting the cost in
the wrong cost center.

Gina (37:26):
That sounds exactly like the company we came from.
They didn't know the differencebetween revenue and profit, so
they were like we're doing great.
Our revenue is like X and L andI'm like that doesn't mean shit
, right.

Nicola (37:41):
So the exact list of numbers and they're like we're
going to build a new building,we're going to build a new
center.

Gina (37:49):
We got so much money and then it's just kidding.
Oh my goodness.

Nicola (37:56):
That may be an urban myth, but that's kind of typical
of how a lot of companies juststuff like that they don't catch
.
It's kind of amazing.

Amy (38:04):
But I think it's like this kind of bump along.

Gina (38:07):
The thing, though, is, like a lot of so like companies
are made up of individuals, andindividuals are therefore human,
and then we're therefore proneto error, right, absolutely.
So nothing is ever run 100%correctly, 100% of the time?
Yeah, so like, and I think, asa client or a consumer or a

(38:28):
customer, we want companies torun 100 percent correctly, 100
percent of the time.
So there's this dichotomy,right Like, when we're the
worker, we're like well, ofcourse we're going to make
mistakes, we're human.
But when we're on the otherside, we're like this company
should have a shit together.
So it's like how do we bridgethat gap?

(38:51):
And is it processes like whatyou're talking about?
Is it?
You know, we've talked withother experts and they say it's
more empathy, it's more gettingto know people on a human level,
is it placing people in theright positions?
You know, what do you think isthe next step there?

Nicola (39:14):
Empathy definitely is trending right now and I would
hope that that happens.
I mean, if we can all betrained to be empathetic, the
world is going to change a lot,I think.
I do think that I think thatthese things have to be
institutionalized, and I dothink they're all going to be.

(39:36):
We're all individuals and Idon't think that
institutionalized isn't theright word.
But I don't think you can forcepeople to be empathetic.
What I do think you can do isincentivize people to be
empathetic by making it part oftheir roles, and what's the

(39:57):
outcome of that is to keeppeople so right now.
I think we've been through aperiod where everything in the
way we work has changed.
I mean, I entered the workforcein 1985, you did in 2002.
I mean, for both of us,everything about the way we work
has changed right.
I mean the facture distribute.

(40:17):
You know from you name it.
It's changed dramatically andeveryone who's in business has
spent all their time and all theliterature has been about just
trying to be stop from becomingextinct, right so.
But nothing has been done aboutto keep people focused on

(40:39):
managing people.
And I think that's really comehome to roost with all of the
great big four hours, right, thegreat resignation, the great
regret, and I think that is thatmay be an inflection point for
the fact that we have not paidany attention to managing people
.
And I know a big root cause ofit anecdotally that I hear, but

(41:01):
it lines up with all theevidence is so many times when
someone is leaving anorganization, managers and
executives say, well, let's notreplace them, let's try to give
their jobs to someone that'sstaying, and then suddenly the
people who are left get aresponsibility of another full

(41:22):
time employee, but they don'tget any more money and they
don't get another title.

Gina (41:25):
And that is that called Nikla.

Nicola (41:28):
By hiring.

Gina (41:30):
Yeah, because one of them I do not need that in my life
today.

Amy (41:35):
Thank you very much.

Gina (41:36):
Somebody else was like somebody I've I forgot who it
was, but somebody had to toexplain it to me, Because I was
like I actually know somebodyhad to explain quiet quitting to
me because I thought like and Ithink it's apparent that I am a
smart individual, but I thoughtit really meant like you just
left and you never came back,Because I was like that's how I

(41:56):
quite quit, I just yeah, yeah,like you and Irish goodbye, and
just never like then, like ghostsomeone.
So I I you know, because thatwasn't anything that existed
when I was working in corporateAmerica, just like it didn't
exist when you were working incorporate America Like well,
there wasn't a name for it.
No, sure it was phoning it in oryou know something right, but

(42:21):
yeah, it was just calledquitting you just like, just
didn't go to work, you stoppedgoing to work.

Nicola (42:27):
Yeah, it was called dead wood.
Yeah, even for that yeah.

Gina (42:32):
But so that's what I thought quiet quitting was.
But so then somebody educatedus all on the quiet hiring, the
quiet quitting and the quietfiring, which I still don't
understand how to quiet fire,but maybe we used to call that
the aloha room.

Nicola (42:47):
So yeah, you just stop giving people stuff to do and
wait for them to leave or phasethem out.

Gina (42:52):
Yeah, you like.

Amy (42:53):
Yeah, I mean God isn't that what we do with boyfriends?

Gina (42:58):
That's what I do with guys I don't like.
Yeah, I phase them out.

Nicola (43:04):
I once was afraid to pick up my phone for two weeks
because I was afraid it wasgoing to be this guy that I
didn't want to talk to.

Gina (43:11):
And I was like I can't even touch with you.

Nicola (43:13):
No, I still had to talk to him and like four times and
be like, oh, I can't, oh, Ican't.

Gina (43:18):
But was it for work related stuff, or were you like
dating?

Nicola (43:21):
No, it was at home.
It was at home.

Amy (43:23):
I love the work of it.

Gina (43:25):
No, because I was like.
I was like sometimes Isometimes if a client's calling
me and I see who it is and Idon't want to like talk to them,
I'll just not answer and thenI'll email them back and be like
I'm in a meeting and meanwhileI'm like watching TV on the
couch with my daughter orwhatever.
I'll be like what do you need?

(43:45):
I'm so sorry, I'm back to backmeetings all day.

Amy (43:51):
It's a stinker.
It's a stinker, guys.

Gina (43:54):
Yeah, yeah, we're back.

Nicola (43:59):
Go ahead.
Well, I was going to say so.
So management has beensomething that's just been not
valued and and one way to saythat and that's what's caused
all of this craziness, muchexacerbated by COVID and
everybody leaving jobs, notwanting to work their jobs, not
putting any effort into theirjobs.
And I think that this empathyis definitely, as you know, I

(44:23):
agree with people who say thefuture of management and the
future of business is aboutbeing more empathetic, and I'm
also so sick of all these peoplewho are talking about culture
being like sending people zoom,giving people the opportunity to
have zoom beers with their bosson Friday at five o'clock.

Gina (44:39):
Who the hell?

Nicola (44:39):
would ever want to do that and sending people stock
boxes with the company logo likethat's not company.

Amy (44:45):
Is this the toxic positivity that we're hitting
like?
Are we hitting straight into asegue for toxic positivity,
right?

Gina (44:51):
now that's.
That's that's Nicholas.
Baby, go for it.
Amy, go for toxic positive.
Let me just let me just prefacethis If any company would like
to send me a company brandedcharcuterie board, I will gladly
accept it.
I will eat it on zoom, I willshout the company out.

(45:12):
But I don't want to work foryour company.
I just want the freecharcuterie board.

Amy (45:17):
So if anyone wants to provide that, I'm.
I need a charcuterie board tohey, the only one that gets some
kind of remorse.

Gina (45:25):
No, I'm saying I have the idea first, so you know, first
come, first serve anyway.
So well, I understand, amy,you're saying like.
Like, I'm just saying, hey, ifsomeone wants to give me like
free, like a whole bushel ofpeanut M&M's and some pepperoni
and a couple crackers, I'm herefor it, but not Working there.

Nicola (45:46):
Not because, like, hey, you're the best.
Thank you so much for doingthis.
Oh, I can't do that for youthough I'm, you know, but you'll
do a great job.
I can't help you with thatquestion, but you'll do a great
job.

Gina (45:59):
And here's your tub of peanut M&M's.
Yeah, so I think that's thepart that Nicola really becomes
alive at with the toxicpositivity.
So why don't you take it away?
What you're seeing with toxicpositivity?

Nicola (46:16):
Yeah, that's now, that's new, Now, that's insightful.
All of this other stuff is kindof recycled.

Gina (46:25):
It's just rebranded, it's been there, it's just been
rebranded.

Nicola (46:30):
It talks of positivity.
That is insightful and new,because that's stuff that's been
used to make people feelinadequate, to put up blocks
against people being managed orinvested in, and that is the
things that prey on, thatprevent teams.

(46:52):
I'm a bottom line person, right, so that is things that take
away from the bottom line.
So there's a book by AmyEdmondson called the power of
psychological safety in teams,and it doesn't speak directly to
this.
I don't recall, but she does.
You know there's all thisevidence out that says, yes,

(47:13):
diversity in teams does maketeams better and more innovative
, and all that translates intobetter profitability.
Now you're speaking a languagethat people will listen to.
Yes, having teams where peoplefeel psychologically safe to
make mistakes, to speak up whenthings aren't necessarily going

(47:33):
to be all the times positive orall the times in line with what
other people think, that isgoing to be better and that's
going to be drive moreinnovation and that translates
into the bottom line, which is alanguage that people will
listen to.
And if you just say empathy,it's kind of like, oh well,
that's this this year's newtrend towards work.

Gina (47:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but are you know?

Nicola (47:57):
that's what HR is pushing.
But I'm driving the bottom lineand I know I'm not.
What does it do for me?
If you talk about it in aframework that has evidence that
supports it's going to mybottom line and listen, and
that's here.
So, connecting toxic positivityto negatively impacting teams

(48:19):
because people don't feel safe.
Connecting DEI to negativeprofits because people who teams
who are not diverse, don'tprovide you with diverse
thoughts when you're serving adiverse client base.
And linking toxic positivity tosomething that is not as
innovative or strong as youwould get if you have a safety,

(48:40):
safe, psychological workspace.
So, yes, we are gettingsomewhere and that toxic
positivity linked topsychological safety of teams
and how it can improve yourbottom line is insightful and I
love that You're not just you'renot just glomming onto this
because it's something thatyou've experienced and it's.
I love that you're glommingonto this, not just because it's

(49:02):
something that bugs you, but itis something that can be really
powerful If we, if we can getit talked about in the right way
and get it across in the rightway, and I think that's the I
took all the wind out of yoursales.
By talking about money, you'relike, yeah, no no, but like.

Gina (49:20):
But how does, how does toxic positivity Like?
We know that it it affectspeople's.
You know productivity, we knowthat.
But I sometimes like what?
What toxic positivity exampleshave you experienced?
Like, because I think sometimeswe kind of can get in the weeds

(49:42):
with talking about these bigheady concepts.

Amy (49:45):
Yeah, that's right.

Gina (49:47):
And you happen to be exceptionally intelligent.
So for the kids in the backlike myself, what are some
actual examples that youpersonally have experienced that
left you scratching your headand being like Because toxic
positivity to me can come off asquite confusing.

(50:09):
Because you're like wait,they're being nice, but are they
?
Or like there's just it's sortof like this subtle dance that
happens that I can't participatein.
I've learned that about myself.
I'm not built that way.
I'm too direct, I have too muchmasculine energy.
It doesn't work for me but forother people.

(50:29):
Give us your experience with itand how it affected you.

Nicola (50:33):
OK.
So I think the most subtle oneis having your ideas sidelined.
So if everyone's saying, let'sbrainstorm which, by the way,
has been proven not to beparticularly effective everybody
in a room throws up ideas.
And if yours is not given,let's say you have a really good

(50:59):
idea, but everyone's putting upstickies and you were not able
to articulate it particularlywell on a sticky and people are
sorting them out, they'reputting you into different
things.
They just say, oh, this is agood idea, and they put it sort
of randomly under a other columnor don't really fully
understand it, and they're notable to say, oh, I get, this is.

(51:23):
Oh, this is just a rehash ofitem B, instead of saying, or
yeah, oh, this is really goodtoo, without fully understanding
it.
So there's an analogy wheresomebody has an idea where it's
not an alignment, it's notsomething that fits with the
general crowd, and you havesomeone who doesn't feel

(51:45):
psychologically safe to saythat's not what I said, that's
not what I meant.
This is a little bit different,because they know that
everyone's going to look at themand go what?
That would put us in a wholedifferent direction.
And you want to say yeah, butyou're sort of getting pulled

(52:05):
along like Sam and upstream togo in this one direction and
you're missing out on anopportunity to think about
somebody who thinks a littledifferently.
So that's something that in theworkplace it's a group thing.
So that's toxic positivity as agroup thing.
I'm going to go back to mylittle bingo chart here, because

(52:28):
if you're thinking about, let'slook at so if you have an
overly secure peer in here in myexample is I'm going to freeze
you out.
So let's think I can think ofmany times where people have
kind of there's either beenunspoken rules that I didn't

(52:51):
know about, that people didn'tnecessarily want to tell me
about, where they'll just say,oh yeah, we're going to have you
work with this person, they'regreat, and I get in a group with
them, and they're like I'm likethis person sucks, but what is
it?

Gina (53:08):
I think that's like, yeah, I love that example because I
think everyone could relate tothat.
You hear all these accoladesabout someone.
They're so smart, they knowwhat they're doing and then this
has happened to me many times.
I'm like how did this personget in this position?

Amy (53:26):
Is it just me.
I thought Kristen had this jobright now yeah is it me?

Gina (53:29):
Am I the dumb one Am?

Amy (53:31):
I not understanding something.

Gina (53:33):
It really makes you feel isolated.
I work with a lot of people whoI'm like.
How are you still in the samejob and having time for it
Exactly?

Nicola (53:45):
And it's either.
Sometimes it's something assimple as oh, nobody told you
that person is best friends withwent to college with our chief
operating officer, or it's I'vealways loved working with them,
and it's like the emperor has noclothes.
Or it's something like oh, theyhad some horrible disease, or

(54:12):
their kid has some horribledisease, and it's like, OK, I'll
just do all the work.

Amy (54:15):
I'm just sticking all the things off the bloody bingo
board.
Gina, that's my goal.

Gina (54:24):
That's the thing.
Still like, where Nikola and Imet it was like all of the above
, like they were either related,Like they were either all from
the same family orbrother-in-law, sister-in-law or
cousin-in-law, or they all werefrom the same church group from
the Midwest, and it's like itcreated this thing where it was,
or someone's got a debilitatingmental health thing.

(54:48):
They're having a new thing,Every other month.
It was like someone hadsomething going on.
I was the only one.
I feel like I was the only onewho never was sick and I was
like, oh, I got a cold thisweekend, but I feel better now
and that was it.
I was like I slept through it.
Thank God for my nanny.
Oh no, but this is the onething that I love to harp on.

(55:10):
Nikola's probably sick of mehearing me saying it, please do
share.
The thankful Thursdays that wehad.
So this is like the bestexample of toxic positivity, I
feel like, because it's so likesimple and clear cut.
So on Slack and the companySlack, that where Nikola and I

(55:31):
met on Thursdays, you would likeput in this channel, the Slack
channel, like something you'regrateful for.
So most people would be likeI'm so grateful I get to work
for a company where my bestfriends and neighbors are
working to, or I'm so gratefulthat I can work outside and I
can work from home, and it'slike all, like the people who

(55:54):
are cronies, they're all likeharding each other's things and
then, like me or Nikola would belike I'm really grateful for my
resilience as a single mom, andit's like crickets or like I
don't think either one of usever said that, but we would say
something oh no, I've got one.

Amy (56:12):
That I've got an example.
I went to the dump like thelandfill.

Gina (56:18):
To like throw shit out.

Amy (56:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and then OK.
So a little bit of context.
I videoed the trip because Iwas going to put it to my
Instagram page, right?
So I put it at high speed andvideoed the trip.
Because what's interestingabout our dump?

Gina (56:35):
this is a total weird segue but anyway, I'm like why
are we talking about garbagedump?
I want to hear it.

Amy (56:41):
OK, so our dump is beautiful.
It is absolutely beautiful.
It does not look like a dumpbecause they cover it with grass
, so it's a mountain Like.
It looks like a beautifulvalley and a beautiful mountain.
But you know, dig two meters inand you're like.

Gina (56:58):
And you're like OK, dirty diapers.

Amy (57:01):
Yeah, you got dirty diapers , but they made it in such a way
that we harvest the methane,like it's really a beautiful
place to go and it's beautifulto go for walks.
It's got a bit of a stench, obs.

Gina (57:14):
Beautiful.
It has a bit of a decayingstench, but it's a stench, it's
a smell, but it's not as bad aslike a dump right.

Amy (57:23):
So I videoed it and I shared it to the Thankful
Thursday and I was like I'mreally thankful that I live in
New Zealand, where they havetaken the time to effectively
manage their environmentalmanagement, essentially because
look at how beautiful this dumpis Crickets.

Gina (57:45):
And I'm like.

Amy (57:47):
What.
It was like Crickets and I'mlike, oh my Lord, oh my God,
look at the place it's beautiful.

Nicola (57:58):
So well, that's kind of like I Thank you.
I've heard, I've I've had afriend who said, yeah, I really
love working with a company thattalks about having Christian
values.
And I'm like, yeah, becauseyou're Christian and right,
everybody's, everybody's reallynice and everybody's you know

(58:21):
like, knows each other'sfamilies, and I'm like, yeah,
but that's nice for you becauseit wouldn't be nice for, like an
outsider, I still have thevideo, right yeah.

Amy (58:34):
Hold on.

Gina (58:36):
Oh yes, please Sure.

Nicola (58:38):
Sure, and then I'll give you my bingo and you can put it
in the notes Also.

Gina (58:42):
I just want to let you know that as a child growing up
in like the 70s, the late 70sand early 80s, my dad used to
take me to the town dump out.
So we had a second house out inthe Hamptons before it became
like chic and we would like, onthe weekends we would go there
and we would like we wouldliterally have fun like poking
around, not like the garbage butlike you know, like the

(59:04):
household items, like there wereseparate areas for where you
would dump things and like you'dcome home with like little
treasures, like you know youcould find like a doll's, like
crib or something for your doll,like someone threw out, you
know.
And that was some of like thebest summer memories I've had,
like as a little kid with my dad, you know.
So it's like not all dumps arebad.

(59:25):
If I had been working at thatcompany, nikola, at the time
that you posted that, I wouldhave been like I'm a fan of
dumps, yeah.

Nicola (59:32):
Yeah, the town of.

Amy (59:33):
Wellesley.

Nicola (59:33):
I've just emailed it to you.

Amy (59:35):
I've just emailed it to the both of you and I'm very
curious to see what you think.

Gina (59:41):
OK, ok, ok.
So tell us what you're doingnow, amy.
Tell us, so we know you like tomatch people like, especially
newly graduated.
Oh my god, is this like toniffle work?
Ooh, could you start a tenderfor work?
Start an app, Amy.
Oh my god, we've just oh.

Amy (01:00:01):
No aswell.
Oh my God.
Like you swipe left and right,you choose the employer.
The employer's got to put thisthing down and then, if it's a
match, you get an interview.
That would be cool, oh my Godthat would be so fun.
Have we just made you a milliondollars, like, isn't this
what's just happened?
Okay, hold on Copyright, ginaand Nicola, just yeah copyright.

(01:00:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, how havepeople not done that?
I would be so.

Gina (01:00:35):
There's too many like nuances and I think that's where
Amy comes in right, like when Iwas trying to get a consulting
gig.
It's like I have such goodexperience but I wasn't always
getting interviews because Ithink I wasn't using the right
words for the algorithm that theHR Like.

(01:00:55):
There's so many other factorsthat go into it that I, like I,
wouldn't have known if I didn'thire someone outside to help me?

Amy (01:01:05):
How did you find the job with our toxic workplace?

Gina (01:01:10):
Because we got interviewed with someone else who knew them
and and they said you're tooadvanced and experienced for our
company, but maybe you couldwork for this company.

Nicola (01:01:21):
This crappy company.

Gina (01:01:22):
Yeah, exactly.
So explain what you're doingand how it affects people now in
a good way.

Nicola (01:01:33):
So what I do.
In a lot of ways, what I do,what I tell people I do, is I
sell confidence.
So part of what I do is explainhow, on the other side, people
should not take what they'regetting from companies seriously
.
So, personally, they shouldtake it seriously.

(01:01:54):
I tell everybody that if I wasthe CEO of every company that
they apply to, if they had time,would reach out personally and
say thank you for applying to mycompany, because it's part of
their job to make it anattractive place to work.
And that's something thatespecially new grads do not get.
And career trans people incurredtransition.

(01:02:15):
Do not forget and you don't.
The thing about this isn'tnecessarily toxic, but the thing
that happens with a resume orany kind of application that
comes in is you know it getsprinted out and it slides me on
your desk.
Or you know the person in HRrealizes that the candidate went
to college with the person onthe trading floor that they have

(01:02:38):
a crush on.
So they're like oh, before Ipass this on, I'm going to send
it up to Jamie and see if I feelnoticed me and said about I
mean, you never know what, howstuff happens.
I mean stuff as ridiculous asthat can happen, with your
resume getting no attention orit gets put into a pile.
You know, I've had a candidatewho works at Pixar, who applied

(01:02:59):
in October, heard nothing untilthe first week in May.
By the third week in May he hadin May he had moved to San
Francisco and was working forPixar.
I mean, the stuff is so bizarre, you don't know.
And anyway, the value that I addis I really think that most
people don't realize is thatwhen they're presenting
themselves so do you know whenyou're presenting yourself and

(01:03:22):
your value for example if youwere on Upwork or if you were
sending over your resume you'rejust presenting your, the value
that you have.
The next step, and the step thatmost people miss, is to present
the value that you add to thatcompany, to that role.
So let me say, for example, ifyou, if there was 100 jobs out

(01:03:42):
there for you and exactly meet,met your profile and all these
companies were coming and yougot 20 resumes, 20 companies a
day sending applications to yousaying please take my job, 18 of
them said here's why you knowwe're a great company because of
a, b and c.
And there was two that saidwe're a great company for you,

(01:04:05):
gina, because we are, have theseresources for working moms and
we specifically value yourspecific skills and we offer you
these three things, benefitsthat we know are important to
you.
Aren't those two things?
To resume, aren't there's twocompany letters going to go
right to the top of your pile?

(01:04:26):
So what I help people do ispresent themselves uniquely in a
way that says this isn't justhow I add value, but this is how
I can add value for you, andthat follows through all the way
through sending a cover letter,through asking for references.

Gina (01:04:46):
And cover letters still exist, though like I feel like
they're so outdated.

Amy (01:04:51):
Again, I'm recruiting right now and I would say that one of
the key things I'm looking foris summarize your stuff for me
in the cover letter, because theCV just tells you what the shit
you've done, Like great, but Iwant to know what's connected
you to this job.
Why are you connected?

(01:05:11):
Why are you wanting to come andwork with us today with the
skills that you have?
So the one person that I'minterviewing, something that
really stuck out to me was theirconnection to the organization
itself.
So we do.

(01:05:34):
I'm trying to summarize that ina way that does not highlight
essentially who they are.
I don't have mentioned thembefore, but essentially it's an
organization that deals withmaternal health and children.
So tell me about why you wantto connect with this, because
the work that we do is sospecialized and so it's such a
gift that we give to thecommunity and it's such a

(01:05:57):
beautiful program.
Why, why are you connected?
Because it's hard to say, oh,I'm just kind of there for the
job.
It's like no, for this you'vegot to be connected, and I want
to see that in your cover letter.

Gina (01:06:12):
Tell me.
But I think that's what Amy'ssaying, whereas I'm saying I
don't give a shit about thecover letter, because most cover
letters are like I really wantto come work for you because I
think I'm smart and I'll do agood job.
There's a difference, and Ithink that's what Amy's added
value would be.
She would tailor it so that itwould be like okay, well, why do

(01:06:34):
you want to come work for us?
Well, A, we're adults, we needmoney to survive.
So that's kind of a dumbquestion.
But why am I a good fit?
And I think that's really theadded value, at least what I'm
understanding.
You're saying, Amy, is thatcorrect?

Nicola (01:06:52):
Yeah, yeah, the most important question in any
interview is why do you wantthis job?
Because in my experience, in mymany years of hiring, it was
always the same story.
It was we'd bring in seven oreight candidates first round,
four or five candidates secondround, two or three candidates
last round, and I'd bring in myteam and say okay, you guys,
what do you think?

(01:07:12):
Who should we hire?
And everybody would go.
They're all kind of the same,but this one wants it the most
and the job would always go tothe person who wants it the most
.
And of all of the validation Iget on my methodology and the
thanks that I get from clientsthat get jobs, the most

(01:07:33):
commented on is that one.
Because when they get the joband they're in it a few weeks,
people say, wow, you got thisjob because you were the one
that wanted it the most.
And it's not rocket science Ifyou want it the most, you're
going to be the one that worksthe hardest at getting it, at
keeping it and at doing a goodjob.
So my whole methodology, everypart of it, breaks down into

(01:07:57):
three pieces.
You need to prove that youunderstand what the job is,
because who wants to hiresomeone is going to be like I'm
not doing this, this is not whatI signed up for, I didn't get
it when I applied and go in twoweeks.
The second is that you can dothe job.
That's the standard one, basedon the skills that you have.
And the third is that you wantit.
And that starts with the coverletter, in my opinion, which is

(01:08:20):
I template everybody's coverletters so that the first
paragraph is very brief why doyou want this job?
Explain to me how this job fitsyour skills and that you
understand what you would bedoing.
The third is kind of arestatement in bullet form, so
you have a little morecreativity of what your skills

(01:08:43):
are.
And then the bottom is why doyou want this company?
Basically, in the firstparagraph you take keywords from
the job description, becausethat's what an author or a
reader is going to be lookingfor.
And then the last one you justtake something from because you
don't want to do too muchresearch until you're going to
get an interview.
Just take something from thewebsite that they're proud of.
Say I love that your companyhas this commitment to social

(01:09:04):
responsibility, or you'reopening markets up in Asia and I
speak a little bit of Chinese.
Whatever it is that they'reproud of.
Mention a case study of whitepaper and mention it so they
know you've done your researchand you want to work for them.
You're not just looking for work.
That also takes case of justsending a resume.

(01:09:27):
I think is just pushing abutton.
So if you're just sending aresume, I call it spraying and
praying.
So there's no effort put intoit and there's nothing to say.
You're not just takingeverybody and companies are like
people they want to feelspecial.
They want to know you took alittle time to if you get past
the first screen.
They want to know that youspent a little time thinking

(01:09:47):
about them.
I agree with that.
Well, where?

Gina (01:09:50):
can people?

Nicola (01:09:51):
find you.
Companies are like people.
I can't believe I said that,but it's the same psychology.
You get it.

Gina (01:09:58):
Well, companies are like people, because they're made up
of individuals who are human.
Yeah, so where can people findyou if they want help, or to
read your book or give us allthe good stuff?

Nicola (01:10:12):
Yeah, I'm a job coach Amycom and I am on Facebook and
Instagram at job coach Amycom.
Tiktok is job coach Amyunderscore and Twitter is job
coach Amy F, and my book isavailable everywhere and both in
Kindle format on Amazon andwritten.

(01:10:33):
It makes a great gift foranyone who's graduating this
year, and there's also a lot ofinformation in there that's good
for people at any career stage,and I have some online courses
that are going to be put up soontoo, as well as some specific
aspects of things like.
I think references is comingonline.
References used to be kind of arubber stamp and they are not

(01:10:53):
anywhere anymore.
They're a really good way todistinguish yourself as an
exceptional candidate, so that'sone of the first things I'm
going to be putting up.
That sounds awesome.

Amy (01:11:03):
I love that.

Gina (01:11:03):
Thank you I wish that was there when I was trying to get a
job, although I was recruitedright out of college, so that
was not so bad.

Nicola (01:11:13):
Yeah, you were this one of stinkers.
I wished I could have been andwasn't, but gave me life purpose
, so that's good.

Amy (01:11:20):
There you go.
Awesome.
Thanks, amy, and we really lovespeaking to you.

Gina (01:11:24):
Thank you, yeah it's really fun, you guys, thank you.
Thanks so much for your time.
Bye, take care.
Bye.