S2E7: Journey of Resilience: Ginny's Transition from Toxic Workplaces to Personal Growth

Episode Transcript
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Nicola (00:00):
Ginny, would you like to introduce your beautiful self
to us and our audience?

Ginny (00:08):
I would love to.
Well, thank you for having me.
I'm really excited to be here.
So I a little bit about me.
Let's start with the fun stuff.
I love to travel.
I love to travel and see placesall over the world.
Australia and New Zealand areon my list, fyi, like very high

(00:29):
on my list which I have not beento and I have a beautiful,
perfect red that's like a rubycolor.
Cavalier King Charles Spanielnamed Francine.
So if you hang out with me onInstagram you will get lots of
photos and videos of her.
She's gorgeous and amazing.
From a work perspective, I am akeynote speaker.

(00:52):
I'm a motivational keynotespeaker.
I'm a number one bestsellingauthor.
My book is called You're myFavorite right here.
I have a podcast calledDrinking with Jen, and I'm also
a life coach, so kind of fullcircle.
And I do all that now afterexiting corporate America, from
having a really successfulcareer spending over 20 years.

Gina (01:15):
Okay.

Nicola (01:16):
So I love that the podcast that you're with Jen,
because my next door neighborand I are like genetics.

Ginny (01:23):
Oh fun, Well I'm Jen.

Gina (01:26):
Yeah, but Jen is such a disgusting alcohol.

Nicola (01:29):
No, you got to have it with like good stuff, Like you
got to have a good.
I've got like a seven yon blancJen.
It is divine, I don't think wehave?

Gina (01:39):
do we have any of those in America?
I feel like I've never heard ofseven.

Nicola (01:42):
Oh, no you will definitely have like small batch
Jenneries.
But there's this awesome book Iused to read as a kid called
Just Jen and her name was Ginnyand it was the loveliest book.
It was such a good, strongfemale protagonist and it was

(02:02):
all about how she kind ofnavigated her teenage years.
So I'm kind of loving all ofthe connections there.
Yes, I love that.

Ginny (02:10):
I'll have to check that out.

Gina (02:12):
I love that.
So can you tell us specificallywhat industry you were in in
corporate America before youbranched out on your own.

Ginny (02:20):
Yeah, I was in medical aesthetics for over 18 years
that was the majority of it.
So I worked for some skincarecompanies there's Francine, yeah
.
So I worked, yeah, in medicalaesthetics was the bulk of that
career.

Gina (02:37):
Okay, so, okay.
So medical aesthetics.
So for people who might notknow what that means, can you
like be very simplistic withyour description of what medical
aesthetics is?

Ginny (02:51):
Sure, so if you think of, like dermatologists, plastic
surgeons, med spas, these arekind of the companies or the
different categories thatprovide medical aesthetic
treatment.
So, and that can be of that,like that can be a wide variety
of things.
It can be surgeries, it can beskincare, medical grade skincare
, it can be injectables, it canbe devices like laser devices.

(03:16):
So there can be a lot ofdifferent things that fall in
that category.
Okay, I worked on the vendorside.
So I didn't work in an officeor anything.
I worked on the vendor side ofthings.

Gina (03:28):
So what does that mean for you?
Like you were in the office,you weren't out there doing like
pharmaceutical sales sort of.

Ginny (03:36):
Or were you?
Yeah, so the bulk of my careerI was doing education, so I'd
educate the people that work inthe practices, or I worked with
a lot of corporate accounts.
So I was usually in leadershiproles.
Like I said, either educationor I managed teams or I worked
with corporate accounts, whichwere some of the groups that
spanned.
You know that had multiplelocations spanning across, you

(03:59):
know, a wide area.

Gina (04:02):
Got it Okay, so tell us about what you liked and what
you didn't like there and whatyou found to be toxic and what
were some of your red flags, andso on.

Ginny (04:14):
Okay, when to start.
You know so much of it was goodand I've met a lot of really
great people.
Some of my closest friends I'vemet over the years from working
with them, you know, in some ofthese organizations.
So there's definitely a lot ofgood.
What I do think is reallyinteresting and fascinating is
like I've exited and I've goneon this like healing and growing

(04:37):
journey, and all the work thatI do now is recognizing that I
am a self-diagnosed person thatis in narcissistic abuse
recovery and I love helpingpeople with that.
But when I look back and Ithink now I'm like, well, no
wonder I ended up in aesthetics.

(04:58):
I mean, it is like there's somuch vanity and I think that
there is probably a lot ofnarcissistic behaviors and
tendencies for a lot of thepeople that are in the industry,
and so it's just reallyfascinating to me when we think
about the choices that we makeand why and what's familiar.
But you know a lot of it Iloved.
I traveled a lot.
You work a lot of hours.

(05:19):
There's a lot of conferencesand events and shows, so you
work a lot of nights andweekends.
I was traveling all over.
I traveled most weeks forprobably 12 to 15 years.
So on the road, a lot and a lotof people.
You know, when I meet peopletraveling they're like, oh, you
travel a lot.
What's that like Is that Eitherpeople would be like that must
be exhausting or they're likethat must be so awesome, and

(05:43):
people kind of glamorize traveland traveling for work, but for
me it just became my norm.
I always said it was like mycommute Instead of just driving
to work.
I had to get on a plane to go towork.
I mean, I have a lot of storiesof things that I can share, but
I think that there was, in oneof the companies I worked at in

(06:04):
particular, a lot of toxicleadership people that were
unqualified.
There's a lot of talking aboutculture, but not it actually
being what they talk about.

Gina (06:20):
If that makes sense oh, I love this topic.
Yes, I'm so there with you.
Can you give us some examplesor stories around that?
Because that's something thatNicola and I experienced like
talking about how healthy theculture is, but then when it
came down to it was like totallythe opposite.

Ginny (06:37):
So, interestingly enough, I decided for this week my
podcast episode that's going tocome out on drinking with Jen is
about work-life balance,because I don't think it exists.
I think it's a big farce.

Gina (06:52):
Not in America.

Nicola (06:52):
Not in.

Gina (06:52):
America Come to New Zealand.
Yeah, that's a caveat, not inAmerica.
In America we are just likegrind, grind, hustle, like
that's the culture we have here.

Ginny (07:05):
But I think a lot of people and a lot of leaders will
preach work-life balance, andso when you're in a culture that
you are expected to work all ofthe time and like even when I
was leading teams, I'd be like,oh, work-life balance, but then
I would be working nights andworking weekends and working on
vacation, and so I think that'sone of the things too that's
like a telltale sign is are theypracticing what they're

(07:27):
preaching?
And if they tell you, oh, wehave really great work-life
balance, but then you see thesebehaviors, that doesn't align.
So when you start to see themisalignment of those things,
one of the things that wasreally interesting is one of the
companies I worked for.
They talk about how great theytreat their employees and I

(07:49):
actually had some experiencesthat were not so great and I one
year, at our national salesmeeting, all of the wrong people
were announced to winPresident's Club, and when
you're in sales, president'sClub is the award that you work
all year towards and you wineither.

Nicola (08:08):
A Is that like the top tier, like that's the shit, you
want to be there?

Gina (08:12):
It's like recognition like you met, like you met or
exceeded all your quotas rightor like something Sales targets.

Ginny (08:18):
Yeah, like you are at the top of the sales force for that
year, whatever.
Every company does itdifferently, but most companies
it's like you're in like the top10%, so then you earn this, you
know, really nice trip orwhatever.
Well, they announced all of thewrong people.

Gina (08:34):
How does that even happen?

Ginny (08:37):
There were some miscalculations internally and
so people started questioning it.
They went back and they neverapologized like or acknowledged
it even publicly to the entiresales force.
They just kind of behind thescenes maneuvered and like Like

(08:58):
straightened it out.
Kind of straightened it outbehind the scenes, and part of
that was I got a call about sixweeks later from my boss saying
hey, you know, in themiscalculations of the award
trips we actually found out andfigured out that we overpaid you

(09:18):
last year.
So you're going to need towrite us a check for $24,600.
And I'm sure, like you, didn'tjust have that sitting around,

(09:38):
right.

Gina (09:38):
You probably did something like with the majority of your
bonus.
I mean, if you did have itsitting around kudos.
But my dumb ass would have beenlike what can I buy, damn girl.

Ginny (09:47):
But also they expected me to do that, but then minus
taxes, right, but then theywanted me to make them whole
after I paid crazy amount oftaxes on it.
So then, to top it off, afterthat conversation, I tried to
fight it and I'm going to giveyou guys a really good petty

(10:10):
princess moment I've nevertalked about this before like
literally my one friend who wasan attorney at the time and was
helping me with the process it'sso funny I'll get to that in a
second.
But then the vice president ofsales at the time, so my boss's
boss, called me and he goes.
Didn't you notice?

(10:31):
Like putting the onus and theblame on me?

Gina (10:37):
I was like double check your commission or whatever.

Ginny (10:40):
Right, and it was, and it happened over the year, so it
wasn't like one paycheck waslike chunk of it was like yeah
$50,000.

Gina (10:48):
Right, it was like a couple whatever here and there,
Okay.

Ginny (10:52):
It was over like four quarters of a time period and
it's like so now this is myfault.
And I was like well, no,because I've, I trust my
organization to do the rightthing and to make it.
You know, to not make mistakeslike this, and I'm not an
accountant Like no, so no,that's not my job.
My job is to perform well in myrole, yeah Right, and so they.

(11:17):
They would not rely on, theywould not, they would not work
with me on it, nothing.

Gina (11:25):
So what I yeah.

Ginny (11:28):
So what they did do was they allowed me to have it taken
out of and split up into twowithdrawals, or like they.
They read what did they do?
They deducted it from my nexttwo bonuses, okay.
And so they're like how wouldyou like to have it split up?
So I don't remember the exactnumber.

(11:50):
I should have gone back anddone this, like let me do this
on my phone really quick,because what I did was I did
1,000, no, I did.
The first payment was 13,825.80.
And they asked me like threetimes are you sure that's the
amount?
And the reason I did that isbecause you, if you look at the

(12:12):
numbers on your phone, thatspelled fuck you, yes queen.
F-U-C-K-U.
I love it.
I mean, it was like, just likethe only way that I could, like
you know, find some humor andsome laughter in a really crappy

(12:35):
situation, but yeah.

Nicola (12:37):
Okay, so hold on, so circling back.
So you had to pay this moneyback.
Yeah, and you.
You got a lawyer, though Didyou get any compensation?

Ginny (12:47):
Yeah, was there any like legal Because?

Nicola (12:49):
this is ridiculous.

Ginny (12:51):
No, they have it.

Gina (12:53):
And you could have, you could have done to help yourself
in this situation?
No, oh my God.

Ginny (12:59):
It was written into.
They make you sign everyquarter, like the incentive
compensation plan, and I hadsigned it and it does say in
there if the company makes amistake and overpays you, you
have to pay it back.

Nicola (13:11):
Oh my God, that is gross .
So apparently that?

Gina (13:13):
do you think they have a history of this?

Ginny (13:16):
I don't know.
That's what I started to wonder.
After that.
I was like huh, you put it in,like your, your contracts.
Yeah, yeah.

Gina (13:26):
Also, were you supposed to get a president's award?

Ginny (13:29):
I won that year.

Gina (13:32):
I would have won, but then I actually left the company, so
I was the number one After theyforced you to pay back that
money, I would have left too.
I would have been like I'm outof here.

Ginny (13:42):
That was part of it.
I mean, it was a long timecoming, but yeah.
So I would have won that yearthat I had to pay the money back
, which to me was like also areally good way to exit.
You know, it's like there's nobetter time to exit than when
you're on top.

Gina (13:57):
Yeah, I can't like that's insane.
Like why hire people who aregoing to make accounting
mistakes?

Ginny (14:06):
Like yeah, and I think, yeah, I think that I don't think
they did anything about thateither.
Like the person that made allthe mistakes, I think that they
still are, maybe even stillthere, I don't know.

Gina (14:18):
This is crazy.

Nicola (14:19):
I know, isn't that wild yeah.

Gina (14:22):
Yeah, that's.
I mean like I always am likenobody should fuck with my money
, no matter how little or howmuch I have.
Like don't fuck with my money,especially like my livelihood
money, Like that's bullshit.

Nicola (14:33):
Oh my.

Gina (14:33):
God, I would probably have .
Did you cry?
I would have cried.
Honestly I would have cried, Iwould have cried.

Ginny (14:41):
I don't remember if I cried, I just remember being so
like flabbergasted, like just soblown away and shocked at the
egregiousness of the mistake andthen the trying to flip it on
to me, and you know, like I'mguest lighting, all right, like

(15:02):
they're just guest lighting,you're like, oh, how is this my
fault.
Yeah, it was really.
Yeah, it was a crazy situation.
I had never experiencedanything like that.

Gina (15:14):
Did you ever hear of that happening to anyone else at that
particular company?

Ginny (15:21):
Well, I'm assuming it happened to other people in that
same time period, who also youknow, when they called the wrong
people right, Because that kindof like they were a trickle.
Yeah, and sales reps and salesmanagers.
I imagine that there's otherpeople that also dealt with that
that same year.

Gina (15:40):
Okay.

Ginny (15:42):
So this is just yeah.

Gina (15:45):
I'm like it's not like they're like oh, by the way,
overpaid you $200.
Like no big deal.

Nicola (15:50):
This is like 20K.
This is like a substantiveamount of money, that's a huge
amount of money $24,600.
I feel, like this has been toyour brain for the rest of
eternity.

Gina (16:02):
Oh, it would have been burnt into my brain.
That happened to me oh my.
God For sure yeah.

Ginny (16:06):
You don't forget a mistake like that, that's for
sure.

Gina (16:09):
No, Okay, so that's insanity.
So I feel like, so you know,now there's all these like like
either dramatizations orwhatever of like the whole
pharmaceutical not that you'rereally in pharmaceuticals, but I
feel like it's a very closecousin, yeah.

Ginny (16:28):
It was a medical device which is like a cousin.

Gina (16:32):
Yeah.
So and we see all these likecrazy you know shows like on
Netflix and Hulu, like about,especially about the opioid
pandemic.
Not saying that you hadanything to do with that, but
just like the convoluted Ginnystarted the opioid pandemic, it
was Ginny's fault.

Nicola (16:49):
Ginny's fault.

Ginny (16:52):
For the record, I never sold an opioid, no I know you
didn't, we just took a turnthere.

Gina (16:58):
Plot twist, I love it.

Nicola (17:01):
Nice, wow.
And like FBI shows up atGinny's house, they're like um,
here we are.

Gina (17:09):
So we heard the origin of the opioid crisis.
Well, I did.
I don't know if you spoke aboutany of that.

Ginny (17:15):
I did work for a company that sold opioids and they were
part of the.
They're part of the wholeopioid Pandemic.

Gina (17:23):
What do you?

Ginny (17:24):
call it Litigation, I called it a pandemic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I meant, Imeant yeah, anyway, any, so I
think so.

Gina (17:34):
My, I think my point is is like in a lot of the
dramatizations that you watch onwhatever you're watching, you
see like a lot of dubious sortof behind the scene, like really
insane stuff happening, likepeople fudging, like you know,
efficacy things like that, orlike crazy markups, like was
there any of that in general,like with with that you even saw

(17:57):
.
Maybe you didn't see it, butyou just have a hunch Like was
there anything like that?

Ginny (18:03):
On an individual basis.
There are people that would usesamples to reduce cost, which
is completely illegal.
Wait, but what does that mean?

Nicola (18:17):
Okay, so I'm guessing that you get samples to give to
people like for some shit.

Gina (18:24):
Your vendors like the doctors or clinics and they're
going to taste it out on whatthemselves know, the nurses.

Nicola (18:32):
They're going to test it out on someone, right, but then
they're using it on thepatients, which they're not
allowed to do because it's asample.

Ginny (18:40):
So it's more actually the ownership of that, of the
sample.
So samples are for training,demonstration, education and
evaluation.
So those are the four reasonswhy a rep or a manager or a
company representative would beable to give samples to a doctor
or a healthcare provider thatis authorized in that state to

(19:02):
be able to sign for samples.
Once they give them the samples, the doctor can do whatever
they want with them, but the repis only supposed to give them
for training, demonstration,education and evaluation and
they're all labeled, not forresale.
This is a sample Like.
They're all labeled like that,and so a rep should never give

(19:23):
it for to reduce the cost or forthe doctor's wife or anything
like that.
But they would do that.
There were certain things thatwe would hear where they would
be using the samples to reducethe cost.

Gina (19:40):
Well, if you buy 20, I'll give you five and wheeling and
dealing kind of that way, likeit's like a gift with purchase,
so that they don't feel so bad,kind of yeah, yeah, which to me,
if you're doing that, you'rejust a really bad salesperson If
you have to do like if you buythis, you'll get this.

Ginny (19:59):
Or you don't know the programs well enough, or you're
just not.
You're just not doing it right.

Nicola (20:07):
But are the samples the same strength as, like, the
actual product?

Ginny (20:10):
Yeah.

Nicola (20:11):
Like all the same.

Ginny (20:12):
Yeah, that's exactly the same Okay.

Nicola (20:15):
I'm like, oh my God, there's just so many ethical
things here that I can.
I'm just like wait what.

Gina (20:20):
No, because isn't it like like okay.
So I remember I got samples ofsome something I don't remember,
but like pills from like myprimary.
Like they were like oh, I have,it might have been Zoloft, like
years ago.
They were like we have samples,we'll get you started with
those.
Then go fill your prescription.
Like that's totally ethical,right, yeah, yeah, okay.
So it's like.

(20:41):
So it's like if he was sayinglike I'm going to sell you all
this generic Zoloft and thengive you additional freebies on
top of it yeah, sweet deal.
That's where it gets fuzzy.

Ginny (20:54):
Yeah, so where it gets hairy is like what you're
talking about with prescriptions, like it doesn't really apply.

Gina (21:00):
It can't happen as much.

Ginny (21:02):
Right, yeah, you don't.
They're not selling the product, but in aesthetics you're
buying the product and thenturning around and selling it to
the patient for cash, right,it's not covered by insurance or
anything like that.
So that's where the financesyou know kind of like that crazy
part come in, come into play.

Gina (21:20):
Yeah, okay, that makes sense.
All right, so you never.
So, was that the most unethicalthing that you saw in general,
people doing that Gosh unethical.
Just define unethical, so Iactually had you tell us what
you think is unethical, and thenwe'll broaden our definition
for you.

Ginny (21:39):
I love it, so I had a coworker.
We were all at a meeting inSouth Beach, miami.

Gina (21:52):
Right by me.

Ginny (21:53):
And we're.
You know we all went out andyou know we had everybody's been
drinking and whatever.
And this coworker, who'smarried with a child, goes to
hand me his hotel room key andsays my room is room number blah
, blah, blah I'll be up in a fewminutes.

(22:15):
And I was like no, what are youtalking about?
And he was like whoa, whoa,whoa.
I must have you know,completely misread.
And I was like yeah, you did.
I've never given any indicationthat I'm interested in you.
You're married, you have a kid,you're my coworker.
I'm leaving and going back tomy hotel and fast forward.

(22:42):
Like two years later, atanother meeting in Fort
Lauderdale, happened to also bein Florida.
I'm saying that.

Gina (22:51):
I just learned to get all the weirdness.

Ginny (22:53):
I don't know, same guy.
It just happened to be wherethe meetings were Like.
Meetings happen a lot in likeFlorida, california, it's just
kind of where they where theyhappen to be.
Same guy hands me his room keyagain and was like and I was
like no, we did this before.
Remember yeah, remember Well.

(23:14):
And his response was insane.
He goes this is the second time.
You've done this to me.
What?

Gina (23:22):
So that's his nickel, as she's like.
I'm sorry, yeah, what yeah?
The second time you've donethis to him.

Ginny (23:32):
Yes, yeah.

Gina (23:33):
Interesting.

Ginny (23:34):
Yeah, did you ever?

Gina (23:35):
Yeah, go ahead.

Ginny (23:38):
Oh, he later on became my boss.
That was fun.

Gina (23:41):
Oh.

Ginny (23:41):
Yeah, yeah, I think I'm going to tie in.
Oh my gosh, I have a lot ofstories about him.
I have two more stories abouthim, if you want to hear, which
are fascinating.

Nicola (23:53):
Let's hear it.

Gina (23:53):
So here Nikola's, like Nikola's already exhausted, it's
like 5 am there and she'salready exhausted from hearing
this story.

Ginny (24:00):
But this is the kind of stuff like that we dealt with,
you know, so fast forward, thenlike another year, year, yeah,
maybe only like one more year.

Gina (24:13):
No, tell me he does it a third time.

Ginny (24:15):
He did not do it a third time, but I get a phone call
from him and I was alwaysfriendly with him still.
I mean, I had to work with him.

Gina (24:22):
Did you ever talk about the elephant in the room where
you like, like hey, just want toclear the air?

Ginny (24:27):
Or was it just like?

Gina (24:28):
don't ask, don't tell.

Ginny (24:29):
No, yeah, I think, just because I'm like you know, I'm a
professional and like, why evenacknowledge it?
Like why even acknowledge hisbad behavior?
I don't know.
I just felt like kind of takethe high road type of thing, so
fast forward to the end of thenext year, and he calls me.
It's the end of the year, it'slike the end of the quarter.
I'm like thriving in my role.
Like my role.

(24:49):
At that point I think I hadbeen in it for a few years.
It was just like I could do itlike the back of my hand.
I mean, it was just like I wasdialed in, I had it, I was, I
had really good balance in life.
And so he calls me.
He's like you know, like howare you doing, how are you
liking your role?
And I was like dude, I'm bored,I'm just like on autopilot,

(25:12):
this is great.
Like da, da, da, da, da.
Like I mean it's totally fine,like I'm not challenged.
You know, I'll have to probablyfigure something else out at
some point, but for right now,like it's working for me.
And at that time I was with myex, who was the catalyst of like
writing my book and everythingelse, and the next day it was

(25:36):
announced that he was my boss.
So the A-hole was calling me tolike get inside scoop and like
completely manipulate thesituation to see where I was at,
knowing that I would be moreopen with him than if I were the
following day, knowing that hewas my boss, which I just

(25:57):
thought was such an inauthentic,shitty thing to do.

Nicola (26:01):
That's so duplicitous yeah.

Gina (26:05):
So he obviously knew he was getting the promotion by
that point yeah.

Ginny (26:09):
And he announced the next day yeah.
So, gross, oh God.
So then fast forward, and Ilove how this guy always like
okay, I have two more storiesabout him.

Gina (26:19):
He keeps popping up.

Ginny (26:21):
Well, that's like the repeat offenders that's what
they do they're like, they'relike whack-a-mole.
They're like the game ofwhack-a-mole.
They keep putting you likeknock them down and then they
pop back up, so then.
So then, like, fast forwardinto that year, and I asked
because I am always someone who,like, wants to be growing and

(26:41):
be developed and know where myareas of opportunity are and
like where I'm really strong, sothat I can balance or, if I
have an area of opportunity,like lean on somebody else and
pull from their strengths, likeI very much believe in that.
So I asked to do a 360, whichis a 360 review is where you get
either, like, if you're aleader I didn't have any

(27:02):
director reports at this time inthis role, so it was kind of
just like a select group andthen they anonymously give you
feedback.
And I had done this a few timesover the years, like when I had
a team.
If you have a team, your teamgives you feedback, your
directory, you know, like yourboss, who you report directly to
, and you know whoever else isin the mix.

(27:22):
So I do this review, I ask forthis 360 review, we send it out,
get all the feedback.
He calls me and he's like ohman, I just did you such a solid
, like I just finished your 360review, I like you're welcome.
Well, what he didn't know wasthat your direct boss, their

(27:49):
feedback is not anonymous andwhile everyone else rated me
fours and fives, he would rateme like a one or a two.
One or two is really bad.

Gina (28:01):
So how did he do you a solid?

Ginny (28:04):
He was trying to like take credit for everyone else's
like reviews.
But he didn't know that I couldliterally see every single one
of his ratings.
Every single thing he wrote wasnot anonymous.
And I'll tell you one thingI've always stood against.
I'm so sorry.

Gina (28:22):
This is so funny because, like the fact that he called me
out of this way to be like Ireally like, yeah, I did you a
solid, I really helped you outhere, man, and then it was that,
did you please?
I hope you cause him out on it.

Ginny (28:37):
Okay, no, I did cry after that.
I could not believe thatsomebody would blindside me,
Boldface, lie to me like that sobadly.
You know someone whoERO youshould be able to trust, right,
Like you should be able to trustwhat someone says to you,
especially your boss, and I washorrified by it.

(29:00):
The other thing that he wrotein there was you need to gossip
less.
And here's the thing.
Like this is what I was about tostart to say is I am not about
gossip.
Like, in fact, I would say I amprobably one of the people like
I think it's why my coachingworks so well and my friends and
like strangers come and open upto me and share their stories.

(29:23):
Like this happens all of thetime.
People are like you're the onlyperson that I've talked to
about this, because I alwayshave the saying of like it's not
my story to tell.
If people ask me about someoneand what they're going through,
I'm like it's not my story totell.
And I really feel that waybecause people were gossiping
about my story when I was goingthrough my stuff and I think
that like really made mesolidify that kind of mentality

(29:47):
so much more, because it wasn'tanybody's business to be talking
about until I made iteverybody's business to be
talking about and wrote a bookabout it.

Gina (29:57):
But but that's different.

Ginny (29:59):
That's not your own timeline.
Yeah, yeah, that's not yourtimeline with your narrative.

Gina (30:04):
So, yes, so did you say anything to him Like how did you
handle that, did you go to HR,or what happened?

Ginny (30:11):
I didn't go to HR.
I'm pretty sure I did talk tohim about it, or maybe I didn't,
I don't even remember.
Honestly, like I think Iblocked it out.
But I remember I did Like Icried my partner partner at the
time, you know I really like Icried to him, I was really upset
about it.
I just was so blown away thatsomebody would deceive you so

(30:35):
badly like that, like literallycall you, tell you how they
helped you out, did you a favor,did you a solid, and then did
the exact opposite, especiallywhen I was doing it voluntarily
for my own development, toreally continue to try to grow.
But him saying like gossip less, I'm not a gossiper, but what I
think would make him madbecause he is the biggest gossip

(30:58):
around town Like literally onthe-.

Gina (31:00):
I call those things like a tell, like where is this coming
from, and it was probably hisown insecurities and he's like
I'm gonna blame it on her.

Ginny (31:09):
Well, what I think it was is if he would come to me and
give me information or news orwhatever.
Oftentimes I would already knowand I think that pissed him off
.
So I think it made him mad thatI already knew the information
before him the late punish youin your 360 review.

Nicola (31:30):
Yeah, yeah.

Ginny (31:31):
And I didn't tell him Cause I didn't engage in gossip.
But people feel comfortabletelling me things, but yeah, so
those were kind of interesting.
Do we know what ever?

Gina (31:40):
happened to him, like what is?
Do we know where he landed, didCarmen?

Ginny (31:45):
get him.

Gina (31:46):
Did he get the keys?

Ginny (31:46):
No, he can't Gosh, I don't know, but here's what I
can tell you.
Like, this was my best way.
Here's another like pettyprincess moment.
This was the way that I.
It's not getting back by anymeans.
So I actually saw him recentlyat a celebration of life and I

(32:07):
was kind of put in a position toend up having to hang out with
him in a group and whatever.
And it was fine.
Like I, it was fine.
I knew I wasn't going to seehim again or really talk to him
again, but for the sake of thegroup, I entertained and it was
fine.
It was like I'm fun, okay, sowe're all having a good time.
And at the end of the night healways called me GP, hey, gp,

(32:31):
man, ooh, those are my miss.
This was so, oh, two GPs.
So he's like man, I just I hadsuch a great time with you today
, like this was, this was soawesome man, I've just really
I've really missed you.
I was like huh, well, that'sinteresting, considering I

(32:55):
haven't heard from you one timein the last three and a half
years.

Gina (33:00):
Right, and what did he say ?

Ginny (33:02):
He goes.
Well, I haven't heard from youeither.

Gina (33:06):
You're like, take you back to my face, Okay got.

Nicola (33:09):
it All I said was yeah, and that was, oh, my God this is
amazing.

Ginny (33:16):
That was like the mic drop.
Yeah, that was the mic dropmoment.

Gina (33:20):
Did he ever find out that his like scoring of you, like
the rating or whatever in the360 was trans-?

Nicola (33:28):
Was not anonymous.

Gina (33:29):
Yeah, Did he ever know that?
Did he ever figure that out?

Ginny (33:33):
I don't know.
Oh gosh, I wish I knew theanswer.
I wish I knew.
Honestly, like I'm so sorry, Ishould have done my due
diligence.

Gina (33:41):
Ah, lee Jenny, I love to have known Cause like just the
arrogance on people like that,like workplace bullies, you know
like they just yeah, all right.
So I know that, like we talkedabout this in our like vetting
call or whatever, what are wecalling this now?
Our meet and greet Meet andgreets.

Nicola (34:00):
Okay, meet and greets.
Veting sounds like we're likethe fucking police, please.

Gina (34:05):
Like we're actually somebody like serious and it's
just me and me, yeah, yeah,please go for it.
I mean, we are talking aboutsomething serious, but we're
very relaxed about it.
Okay, so I know you said thatyou had identification with both
myself and Nicola, because yousaid you didn't realize how bad
it was until you left it andthen you started seeing all the

(34:25):
toxicity around you.
Can you tell us what thatjourney looked like for you?

Ginny (34:32):
Yeah, I think part of it was, you know they very much
were a coach and reward on moneyand things, and so it was very
much like coach on money andrewards, practice what you know.
Like they don't practice whatthey preach in leadership.

(34:53):
I mean by that there's a lot ofyou know two-facedness, right,
like the like what I justdescribed actually had that with
another leader before that shepretended to be my friend and
then completely stabbed me inthe back, which was also
terrible.
But I also had some really goodleaders I had.
One of my best leaders was atthat organization but like, for

(35:14):
example, there's just thisoverarching feeling of like that
they own you almost.
Like you can't have.
Like it's okay for people thathave kids and families to have
interests outside of work, likethey're kids, sports and you
know that kind of stuff.
But if you aren't like, if youdon't have kids or a family,

(35:38):
like you can't post about yourside hustle or your you know,
your extracurricular activities,like that's one of the things
that I thought about that I wasso grateful that my book didn't
come out when I worked at thatorganization, because I just
know the chatter that everybodywould have been having behind

(35:59):
the scenes and fortunately I wasstill in corporate when my book
came out and I had the mostincredibly supportive boss at my
corporate job.
She flew out to Minneapolis tocome to my book launch.
And when I finally got up thecourage to tell her about it
cause I think I had beenconditioned for so long like
don't talk about, like anythingelse, cause that could take away

(36:21):
from work A few months beforethe book came out, her and I
were having dinner and I satdown and I told her I was like
hey, I just want you to knowthere's something I've been
working on.
You're going to start seeingabout it and hearing about it.
And she was so excited, like soexcited for me, and was like
people should have interestsoutside of work.
And I was so shocked and blownaway by it because of you know,

(36:43):
the environment that I had comefrom.
And so there's, you know, likeit's just it's really
interesting.
And then like the rewardingbased on you know, money and
things, like I mean I have allof these things.
Like I won jewelry, like reallyexpensive jewelry, I want a

(37:03):
Peloton.
People won like Louis Vuittongift certificates.
They would do this, but thenthe second people weren't
performing or the you know werequestioning the goals of maybe
like 40% year over year it was.
Then they would come back andtalk about how ungrateful and

(37:25):
you know it's definitely more oflike that stick mentality than
carrot.
And so for me, too, just partof like my own journey has been
things just becoming so muchless important and it just not

(37:46):
mattering as much anymore.
Right, Like you start to findwhat really is valuable in life
and it sheds a light, it shinesa light, I should say, on some
of that more toxic behavior andenvironments.

Gina (38:00):
So did I know you started seeing toxic stuff happen
personally.
What do you think came first?
Was it like seeing the toxicityin your workplace or your
personal life, or how did thatwork for you?

Ginny (38:17):
I think there's components of it that I felt at
work for a long time, but Ithink I didn't have really the
awareness.
Like, for example, there isthis one guy who, I mean, slept
with everybody and he was in aleadership role and he was just
going around and like peoplewere talking about it and

(38:39):
knowing about it, but it gotlike swept under the rug and
other people in leadership wereburying the bodies for him.
Basically, you know, it's likethey were, they knew about it
but just like kind of turned ablind eye and so like there
wasn't ever any correction forbad behavior.

Gina (39:00):
Sure, okay, so, okay, so wait.
By the way, did we ever findout what your book is about?
I don't even think we talkedabout it that much in our meet
and greet.
What's your book about?

Ginny (39:13):
So my book you're my favorite is about my own
personal.
It's a true story of theshocking and traumatic end to a
romantic relationship.
I can give you like quick cliffnotes, but it really was the
thing that sent me on thisjourney of like growing healing,

(39:34):
self-discovery, self-love, mademe how was a little bit more
about that so much more aware ofeverything going on in my life
the community, the people, allof it.
So basically, what happened?
I was traveling like, if youthink about my life, like I was
the quintessential single girl,like I was traveling for work
all the time, really careerfocused, like I know you brought

(39:54):
up Netflix earlier kind of likemain character energy.
I was traveling all over theworld with my friends and my
free time, you know, spendingtime with my friends, or mostly
my dogs, and living the life.
So I get introduced to this guyChad Chad, I call him Of course
you're such a Chad Wait well,that's not his real name.
No, that's not his real name,but he hates that name, so

(40:16):
that's why I used it.
Okay, great, so I get introducedto him and I was not interested
for two reasons A, my life wasso great, but then also he had
two kids, and that can just getcomplicated and you know, he
broke down the barriers, westart dating and then, of course
, I fall in love and then I meethis kids and I fall in love two

(40:39):
more times and, before you knowit, like he is definitely like
moving the relationship alongreally fast.
I was kind of slow and then,you know, like once I fell in
love, then things just continuedto move really fast.
They move in to my house and,mind you, they have a wonderful
mother.
At the time they spent about40% of the time with us, 60%

(40:59):
with her, and but now I havethis instant family, which is a
complete flip from what my lifewas before.
And we're we dated for justunder a year and a half and I am
.
We had just gotten back fromthis really elaborate trip to
Italy, which, of course, Ifooted the bill for.

Gina (41:18):
Okay, wait, can I just make?
A prediction, because I'm likesuch a true crime fan.
Everything was a fucking lieand he was like kind of conning
you Okay don't say if.
I'm right or not.
Let's hear the rest of thestory, we'll find out.
If I'm right.

Ginny (41:35):
Go ahead so we get back from this really great trip.
I had to turn around like oneor two days later and go on
another work trip and on thatOkay just so that I can, just so
that I'm 100% sure that I'mfollowing here.

Nicola (41:48):
We've been okay.
We've been dating for like ayear and a half.
They've him and the children'shave moved into your home.
Yeah, why your home?

Gina (41:58):
Yeah, why the fuck your home?

Nicola (41:59):
I have so many questions , jenny, like I have, so many
questions, but I've got so manyfollow up questions here, so
we're in your home.

Ginny (42:05):
We're in my home.

Nicola (42:06):
The home I still live in now.

Gina (42:08):
Okay, but how did you get you to foot the bill to Italy?

Nicola (42:12):
Yeah, like what does he do for a job?
What did he say?
What did he say?

Gina (42:16):
like oh, my wire transfer from the banks didn't go through
.

Nicola (42:20):
My, my Winston union didn't come through, girl, if I
told you, yeah, go ahead.

Ginny (42:26):
If I told you the number of times that his credit card
had fraud or whatever, like Ican't even so.
So they're living in my housebecause he rented, and so how he
approached the conversationwith me was well, how much
longer should I sign this leasefor?
Or should I all, or should I atall?
You know, should we move intogether?

Nicola (42:47):
Well, okay.
At what point did he move in,though?
Like, at what point in thisyear and a half did he move in,
if you tell me six months comingto punch you in the tits?

Ginny (42:56):
Shut up?
It was not.
It was not three months, it wasnot six months.
They moved in At one month.
It was like nine or there'slike nine or 10 months, so like
we started dating in August.

Nicola (43:09):
We approved, we started dating in August.

Ginny (43:12):
He brought it up.

Nicola (43:12):
I'm not punching you in the tits today, so we're good,
we're good.

Ginny (43:15):
He brought it up in April and then kind of slowly started
, you know, moving in and wasfully moved in, I think, in like
two Cause that's a bigcommitment to move kids in as
well.

Nicola (43:23):
Like that's like a thing , cause I, we've all like I
don't know if you've got kids,but we've both got kids and I'm
like that's a fucking event.
Yeah, it's a huge event.

Gina (43:33):
Especially when they're at their age, like getting them
comfortable in a new environmentIf they're like old.

Nicola (43:37):
Oh my God, how old are these children?
How old are these?

Ginny (43:39):
children.
So one thing I don't say istheir age or gender, because I'm
very protective of them.
We still are in each other'slives, we're still really close.

Gina (43:49):
Oh, that's a bit nice, but yeah, like it can be like a big
event in a kid's life,depending on their age, Like I
had already created.

Nicola (43:58):
Can we have like a group age here?
Like are we younger or older?
Like are we?

Gina (44:02):
they were younger.

Nicola (44:03):
The low-tutile octetine.

Gina (44:04):
Yeah, they sound like they were younger.
They were younger, okay.

Ginny (44:08):
And I had already created space, Like I had already
turned the bedroom thedownstairs bedroom in my home a
bedroom for them, cause theyspent so much time there and so
he rented, he didn't own, Iowned and so that it made the
most sense and I had just boughtmy house the year we started
dating, so, like that house, Ihad moved from a different home

(44:28):
that I actually still have andrent out, but so Was he at least
paying you rent.
No, you're so cute, that'sadorable Gina.
No.

Gina (44:37):
Girl, I'm doing it.

Nicola (44:40):
I hate, like I hate past Ginny right now for this oh my
God, yeah, I want to come givepast Ginny a punch in the boob
and a hug simultaneously.

Ginny (44:49):
Right, I know.
Well, here's the thing, andhere's one thing that I'm
actually really grateful for isthat I am a generous person and
I'm really glad that I didn'tlet this taint that for me, or
like jade me was still beinggenerous with my friends and my
family and the people that I amclose with in my life.
But I'll tell you, I've madesome changes in my community.

(45:11):
I've made some big changes andshifts just because of what I
came to learn about myself,about my growing up, about my
history.
That, like that you know, Ikind of said earlier, like this
narcissist abuse recovery,that's a really big part of my
journey.
For me, and understanding why Iallowed him in my life is
because a lot of his behaviorswere familiar to me.

Gina (45:33):
Yeah, so I completely identify with that.
This is reminding me of a guythat I dated, not necessarily
the monetary stuff, but justlike knowing he's lying to you
but at that moment either notpicking up on it or refusing to
pick up on it.
Like I still go back and thinkabout this one particular
relationship that was verytraumatic for me and I'm like

(45:54):
how did I not know?
But then there's like a littlevoice in the back of my head
that's like girl you knew, butlike you know, Girl.

Nicola (46:01):
Yeah, like you just admitted to yourself.

Gina (46:04):
Yeah, like you didn't want to think about it, so you just
kind of like pushed it awaybecause you were like so Gaga
over the guy.
I totally get that, okay.
So my question is what did hetell you for you to pay for
Italy, that he was going to payyou back?
No, it was just like the samething.
I just did it.

Nicola (46:21):
The children going to Italy too?
No, they didn't go.

Ginny (46:24):
That was just, yeah, that was just an adult trip, but I
did take them.
I took them on their first timeto see the ocean.
I still take them on vacations,them and their mom, the four of
us go on spring break, uh-huh.

Gina (46:36):
I love this.
Okay, so we can come back.

Ginny (46:37):
That hurts fun, so I come back.
I got shingles on my face.
I should just take a picture ofthem and post how spreesque
were you that.

Nicola (46:46):
You got shingles, exactly.

Ginny (46:47):
On my face in my 30s.
That is not normal, unless youare under it.

Nicola (46:51):
And it swells, so bad it was so bad.

Ginny (46:54):
I have a pretty bad scar.
You can't see it here.
I actually was just before Icame here.
I was about to post somestories on social media because
I was like, well, I have mymakeup on, so I might as well
get on camera, and the way thelighting was, you could just see
the scar on my face really well.
So I snapped it to shareBecause I think pain attention

(47:14):
to our bodies and our intuition,especially as women.
I think that we ignore it often, and once you ignore it.

Gina (47:20):
That's what we did with these guys, right.

Ginny (47:22):
Yes.

Gina (47:23):
We knew, but we still ignored it.
Yep.

Ginny (47:26):
And once you ignore your intuition and it was right you
never do that again, and so Ithink that was a big part.
Oh, I'm special.

Gina (47:32):
Because it took me many times to be like I should trust
my gut and then it's like samething happens two years later.
I knew I should have tried.
There's a saying, though likethe first time you see the hole
in the road, you walk into itbecause you want to know what it
is.
Maybe you do that two moretimes and then eventually you
start walking around it a littlebit and kind of peer in, and

(47:54):
then maybe the sixth time youknow the holes there.
You just completely change yourdirection.
So that was my pattern, withreally bad behavior like that on
my part.
So that's awesome that you wereable to correct it so quickly
In a hard case, I guess.

Ginny (48:11):
Well, that's okay.
I mean this.
Well, maybe it wasn't.
I mean, this was just the lasttime.

Nicola (48:15):
right Like this was the thing, because it shook me to my
core so hard.

Ginny (48:22):
This whole experience was so jarring and so shocking.
So a month later, and theshingles on my face were because
, like I knew something was, Iknew something was wrong we
actually went home.
I went home and we had a bigconversation that weekend.
He totally gaslit me, did the Iwouldn't have moved my kids
into your house, like trying tothen make me feel guilty.

(48:42):
And, mind you, he had movedlike six times in five years, so
don't talk to me aboutuprooting your kids.
So anyway, fast forward a monthlater and I'm on a work trip
and I get a message from afriend and she urgently wants to
get together with me that nightfor cocktails.
I land at 937 pm on a Tuesday.

(49:05):
Girl that's that's pajama time.
Yeah, totally so.
Like I'm like I love cocktails,but not at 10 o'clock on a
Tuesday, and this friend and Ihad never met for cocktails
before like workouts or coffee,but never cocktails.
And on a Tuesday I also hadasked the kids mom if we could
have the kids that night.
It was a Tuesday, which was notour normal night.

(49:25):
We had them Thursdays to Sunday, but we were leaving town that
weekend for my nephew and thatweekend for my nephew's wedding,
and so I loved the morningswith the kids.
Like that was our special time.
Like breakfast, bring them toschool they're so sweet in the
morning, like making the lunches, like the whole thing.
So I was really excited to gethome and have that special

(49:46):
morning with them the next day.
So this friend wants to meet meand you know I was like well,
my life was pretty good.
I loved this family unit that Ihad, even though I never really
, you know, expected to have it.
And so all day I'm going inthinking, well, how am I going
to show up and be a good friend,like whatever's going on with

(50:08):
her?
Obviously it's something reallybig.
Like I want to be there for herand support her.
So I walk into the restaurantlike ready to take it on, like
take on the world for her, and Isit down.
She's got an empty drink.
I don't know how many she hadhad but empty drink, a stack of
paper.
She's sobbing and I sit down inthe booth, I order you know we

(50:28):
order around and I reach acrossthe table and I'm like I've been
so worried about you all day.
What is going on?
She said it's not about you orit's not about me, it's about
you, it's actually about Chad.
And she had this arrangement ofevidence of Lies, deception.
But really, like, the guy thatwas at home in my bed at that

(50:51):
time was not who I thought hewas at all.
I had been bamboozled, conned,I mean it was, and just more and
more stuff has continued tocome out, like even recently.
I have a really funny juicystory that's happened recently
that I can share.
But yeah, so I came, I wenthome, I confronted him.
I was very careful about theamount of information that I

(51:14):
gave him because I wanted to seehow he responded and what he
would, you know, divulge andshare.
And after like 45 minutes hebasically was like I know this
is more important, but I have toget up for work in four hours,
so I'm going to go to bed and helike literally went and slept
on the couch, did he even have ajob.

(51:35):
Yeah, he's a personal trainer.
Oh, self-employed.

Nicola (51:41):
You know it's a job.
Okay, wait.
So what kind of lies are wetalking here?
Was he?

Gina (51:45):
like a different personality.

Nicola (51:47):
Like did he have a different family?
Like, what level ofpsychopathic-ness are we talking
here?

Ginny (51:56):
Yeah.
So like there are countlesswomen that he did like countless
at this point, is he just likeshell-gaming woman, yes, and I
mean, or is he conning them formoney?
He's not necessarily conningthem for money.
I was the perfect host for himbecause he didn't, you know,
contribute to the mortgage, hedidn't pay bills.

(52:17):
I did everything.
I did the grocery shopping, Itraveled for work, so that gave
a lot of space and freedom forhim to do.
Who knows whatever.
Like I always say, if there'sone thing this guy should be
teaching, it's time management.
But now, I mean, at this point,countless women have reached
out to me and they're like Idated him at this time.
I dated him and there wasoverlapping, of course.

Nicola (52:38):
Oh yeah, I want you to not throw a podcast on this.
Oh, I do.

Ginny (52:42):
Oh yeah.

Gina (52:43):
We talk about this and drinking with Jen.

Ginny (52:45):
We talk about the juicy stuff that after the growing.
You know all the good stuff.
I actually have done some TVsegments about this because,
like, there's recent event wasreally juicy.
But as soon as my book came out, women started like reaching
out to me slowly, gradually,like, oh my gosh, I'm also a
victim of the real life Chad,like I had no idea how many
women there actually were.

(53:05):
He's also like I, countlesslike legitimately.
I have no idea.

Gina (53:13):
So he also your best estimate would it be like
hundreds or thousands, oh yeah.

Ginny (53:17):
Well, maybe thousands, maybe hundreds, for sure,
definitely, definitelyManagement.

Nicola (53:25):
This guy is on top of his shit.
This is like my question is ishow is this impacting the
children, because he's obviouslyusing them as like a like, a
little dangly carrot.

Ginny (53:36):
The most difficult part for me, still today, is to see
the continued manipulation andemotional abuse that those kids
endure from him.

Nicola (53:46):
I've got like it's you hate.

Ginny (53:47):
now I know they went a long period where they didn't
speak to him or see him at all.
They don't like seeing him,they don't like spending time
with him, so they literally onlygo to see him one day a week
and that vacillates because he alot of times doesn't show up
because he's flaky.
He like he, we don't think hedoes taxes.
So I think he's a hugefinancial fraud.

(54:08):
He makes it seem like he doesreally well and you know like
has all this money.
He doesn't have a dime in thebank.
Like he has no savings for hisfuture.
Like nothing.
He was charging clients creditcards for services not rendered.
Like multiple of his formerclients canceled their credit

(54:29):
cards to get new ones becausethey didn't trust that.
You know what else would he dowith it?

Gina (54:35):
I think one of the most nobody like actually went to
like the police about him doingthat.
That's like illegal.
What he's doing is like creditcard, like fraud.

Ginny (54:47):
Yeah, wait until you hear this.
So one of the things that hetold the woman that kind of came
forward to blow things up andmake me aware, he told her that
the reason I couldn't find outabout her is because they needed
he and the kids needed myhealth insurance because the

(55:08):
youngest had brain cancer.

Gina (55:11):
Why do all these scamming motherfuckers always make up
somebody with cancer?
Every single scam man, woman,somebody has cancer and somebody
gets into a car accident.
How?
Many car accidents did he getinto.

Ginny (55:26):
There were no.
They weren't even on my healthinsurance, so that in itself was
a lie.
There was no cancer, no braincancer, of course not.
He would leave like he wouldlie.
He would leave my house whenI'd be gone and, by the way, I
had a geriatric like elderly dogat this time and he would just
abandon and neglect and leave mydog.

Gina (55:48):
I hate everyone.

Ginny (55:49):
I hate people.
And then one of the one of, Ithink, the most grandiose things
that he does.
So he used to work for thisnutrition company and he would
go talk at this chiropracticschool.
So he just took it upon himselfto start acting like he's a
chiropractor, a doctor, andwould perform chiropractic

(56:11):
adjustments on people and legitone of his they would pay for
them.
I don't know if they pay forthem, but one of his-.

Nicola (56:18):
They were like a broken back.

Ginny (56:21):
Well, I mean, if he hasn't already.
You can easily give somebody astroke or worse right Like.
Again, it's not only illegal,but like the grandiosity of like
playing a doctor when you'renot.
But one of his buddies is asoccer coach at a college and he
will send, like I had seen hiscollege athletes go in and get

(56:43):
adjusted by him.

Gina (56:45):
From Chad.

Ginny (56:46):
Yeah, from Chad.

Gina (56:47):
From.

Ginny (56:48):
Dr Chad, From Dr Chad.
So it's like if you knew thatyour college kid was being sent
to this faux chiropractic-.
I can't Like horrifying.
I can't right?

Gina (57:00):
Does the friend know he was a fake chiropractor?
Or maybe the friend was alsobamboozled Like?
We don't know?

Ginny (57:06):
We don't know Well that friend reached out to me it's
just so deep About the book.

Nicola (57:10):
I know I don't care for this and was like yeah.

Ginny (57:12):
I mean it's wild, like the story is juicy, okay.
So let me tell you this onemore juicy part, because so
there's this secret Facebookgroup that is basically to like
women will post photos of a guyand be like hey, does anybody
have any tea or are there anyred flags?
So this just happened a fewmonths ago.
It was like almost exactly tothe date a year after my book

(57:35):
came out, and a photo of him wasposted, literally like almost
instantly.
Like over a hundred womencommented.
So then they all start chattingwith one another, they all
start DMing, they all startsharing my book, like sending
pictures of it, like oh, my gosh, you have to read her book,
it's about him.
They all start reaching out tome.

(57:56):
I get this like my book goes tolike number one bestseller.
I don't know, they're like allsupporting it, sharing it,
they're all reaching out to me,they're like reaching out to one
another.
And then another photo wasposted of him, and so this is
why I say countless, because,like I, legitimately can't even
keep track of all of those andlike who knows how far the reach

(58:17):
went if it was just women maybe?

Gina (58:19):
meant I feel like men would be less likely to report
on something like that, like iftheir dude friend conned them
they'd probably be soembarrassed.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So so they're all sharing.
Your book goes to bestseller.
This is so cool.
Go ahead.

Ginny (58:34):
Yeah, and so they all, like they've all been, you know,
like creating community andconnection and what's what the
silver lining of it all is.
I had no idea when I, you know,shared my story.
It's, you know, very personalto me.
It was really traumatic what Iwent through and luckily it did
send me on a journey of likepost traumatic growth and now I

(58:55):
use that to help other peopleright like share their stories,
give validation, coach themthrough transition,
transformation, all of that.
But these women have been, youknow, they've reached out like I
had no idea how many, likeobviously I knew I or I hoped
that I would raise awareness ofthe chads of the world out there
, but I had no idea how manyactual people have been impacted

(59:16):
by the Chad.

Gina (59:18):
This particular one.

Ginny (59:21):
This one guy and the amount of people that have
reached out and said you knowyou sharing your story as
provided me validation or it'sgiven me closure and clarity on
a situation that was reallyconfusing for me.
I was really difficult, it wasreally painful.
You know the number of womenthat said it completely

(59:41):
destroyed them like hecompletely destroyed them.
It destroys their confidence,it makes them like compute, and
so to be able to provide thatfor people and create connection
and community with one another,on Saturday I happened to be at
a football game and another oneof the women that had reached
out to me happened to be theretoo, so we met up and got to
meet each other in person.

(01:00:01):
He actually had called her totry to because after so I was on
TV about this.
I was on a nationallysyndicated talk show about this
whole Facebook story and youknow everything because it's
juicy you know, it's kind ofcrazy how it happened, yeah yeah
, definitely, and he heard aboutit.

(01:00:22):
Or you know, he heard about that.
I was on TV and found out aboutthis private Facebook group and
someone gave him access to thecomments.
I hate everyone, so he calledone of the women and was like I
can't believe you didn't defendme and say what a good guy I am.

Gina (01:00:41):
Babe, when, like, a million 39 other women are like
he, even if, like, let's say,she even did that, like when all
the proof is there.
So wait, this leads me to aquestion how did your friend
know, yeah, before you?

Ginny (01:00:56):
knew.
So I was told, I was told.
I don't believe that, I don'tknow that, I necessarily believe
what I was told, but what I wastold is that she was showing
pictures at a mom's group on herInstagram from my Instagram of

(01:01:19):
our trip to Italy, saying, oh,my friend just got back, look
what a great trip it was.
And one of the women recognizedChad in my photos.

Gina (01:01:28):
And it was like oh, that's my boyfriend.

Nicola (01:01:30):
It was her friend.
I think she banged him at somepoint.

Ginny (01:01:33):
Yeah, I'm not sure.
We're not friends anymoreeither.
I had to actually eliminate herfrom my life.
That was one of the things Ireally discovered was the close
proximity of the few people thatwere really close to my life
were very toxic.
I think the reason why she toldme is because she wanted me to
be indebted to her and shewanted to kind of have the
control in my life and be myhero.

Nicola (01:01:56):
Be the hero that I like to save Like savior of your life
, yeah yeah, yeah.

Ginny (01:02:01):
So I've gone on to be my own damn savior.

Gina (01:02:03):
Yeah, good, I mean, that's what happens.
My story is not the same, butit was a serial womanizer in a
certain friend group and when itall spilled out and he got a
few of us pregnant at the sametime and it kind of just all
exploded and it was sodevastating, it made me feel

(01:02:29):
suicidal and I was in my late20s, early 30s at the time and,
first of all, if it happened tome now, I'm also now gonna be 44
.
I would never, I would alreadysee the signs, but you, I
finally, was like like I endedup feeling bad for him.

(01:02:52):
Like I was like he is just asick human being, like someone
who can have multiple sexpartners every day, like that's
a sickness, like that is not anyreflection of me.
I happened to just be in hiscrosshairs because he liked the
way I looked.
It was no reflection of me.
But it took me a really longtime to get to that point where,

(01:03:14):
like I didn't feel likeeverything was wrong with me,
like I was fat, I was ugly, likewhatever, and I remember saying
Can?

Nicola (01:03:23):
we circle back to Fat Cunt with a gun, so I feel like
that's the theme title of theyear.

Gina (01:03:31):
No, but like I remember, like laying on my really close
friend's couch and just likesobbing and being like I'm
disgusting, like what's wrongwith me.
You know to like internalizethat and then, but then it, you
know, over the process and likelearning how many other women it
affected and like getting phonecalls from them, like a year
plus later, being like this isno longer my problem.

(01:03:54):
Like you deal with it, like I'mout.
I've been out, you know, sinceI found out all of these
disgusting things this personhas done, which is really good
closure, you know, and likeeventually I'm gonna ask you
this question, but I'm gonnastart it with.
So eventually Karma got him.
He got into a really badmotorcycle accident and like his

(01:04:16):
leg, one of his legs, was likeseverely damaged and he's not
the same.
And I remember a friend of mineheard about it and asked me like
was I okay?
And I'm like what do you mean?
Am I okay?
Like this was years after allof that the nastiness happened
and I'm like what do you mean?
Am I okay?
I was like he doesn't affect me, like it was just like hearing,

(01:04:40):
like reading it in thenewspaper.
For me, you know, it was likeoh, that's too bad, like
whatever.
And that was really like mymoment.

Ginny (01:04:48):
And I was like I have no feeling about this person
anymore and like that's thepower you know, yeah, I would
say that love and hate areactually really closely related
emotions, and it was my first TVinterview after my book came
out and they were like man, youmust hate him.
And I said I'm indifferent.

Gina (01:05:09):
And that's the power.
When I realized, like, when myfriend asked me, like how do you
feel about it?
And I was like why would like?
I was genuinely like, why wouldyou think that I would even
have an opinion on this?
That's when I was like I knowI'm over this, like I have
nothing, like that's too bad.
It happened, but you live yourlife like that.
You know You're lucky that thesilly thing that happened.

Nicola (01:05:32):
So how do you feel like this has impacted you like you
know, circling all the way backto toxic workplaces?
How?

Gina (01:05:39):
do you feel like this is so how did this reflect, like,
in your employment?
Like I'm sure that you werelike a complete stress ball,
completely freaking out.
Like what happened with work?
Like were you still showing up?
Did people question what wasgoing on with you?
Like, what was that lookinglike?

Ginny (01:05:56):
Well, I was supposed to be going to my nephew's wedding
that weekend.
I had to cancel.
I missed my nephew's wedding,which was devastating, but I did
.
I called my.
It was my.
I had that wonderful boss thatwe talked about at the beginning
.
He was my boss at the time thatthis happened.
And I basically just called andsaid I need the rest of the week

(01:06:16):
off.
I have some, you know, personalstuff going on and I just kind
of left it at that.
I just kind of kept a lowprofile, I think I showed.
I think I had to travel forwork the following week and my
colleague that I was going to dolike a dinner, like a business
dinner with, he asked me aquestion.

(01:06:37):
I just said, look, I, this iswhat's going on, I'm not ready
to talk about it.
And he really respected it andI'm still like we're still
friendly to the state.
He's a, he's a great guy.
But I did, I think for a while Ijust was going through the
motions Like I was really lost.
I was really.
I was a mess.
I didn't sleep, I didn't eat, Ilost like two, I like dropped

(01:07:01):
two sizes.
My body was just so stressed,like in constant fight or flight
.
I questioned everything in life.
But I was still showing up towork and I think I probably kind
of put myself into work, threwmyself into work a little bit,
and that's why I, you know, wonthe award the next year.

(01:07:23):
You know, after that, that wasthen the last year.
That was the year I exited thatcompany.
So, yeah, it was.
It was hard to show up, but Ithink sometimes when you're in
that state of grief, all you cando is just do the next thing,
right?
So I was really reliant on myschedule and just like knowing
that I had to do the next thing,and it was about five or six

(01:07:46):
months after the split where Istarted writing the book, and so
I would then just like spend myflights writing.
I was just like furiouslywriting and you know thinking
about how I was gonna put thisstory out into the world, and
then I shelved it for about ayear and a half, came back to it
and, you know, brought it outinto the world.
But to answer your questionabout like, how did this change

(01:08:10):
me in terms of, like, my workenvironment and, you know,
recognizing toxic workenvironments, I think one of the
things for me that was a reallybig learning lesson was that.
Because sometimes people thinkabout narcissists and I think
it's a really flippantly thrownaround word now, but that's why
I bring like experts I refer tomedically reviewed journals on

(01:08:35):
my podcast.
When we talk about things likethat, like gaslighting and the
gray rock method and narcissists, people often think of it just
in romantic relationships, andpart of what I like to talk
about is that they can beanywhere.
You know.
They might be your familymember, they might be your
coworker, and so one of thethings that really changed for

(01:08:55):
me, gina kind of like what youwere saying is like now you can
recognize it, like I can spot ita mile away, like you are not
getting anywhere near.
It's like I have the like, it'slike I put a magnifying glass
on it for me.
And at my last company I had avery toxic coworker and I had to
start, like implementing someof the tactics and things that I

(01:09:18):
had learned on my journey ofgathering information and coming
to understand it.
And the second, I didn't haveto work with her anymore.
I like completely removed herfrom my life.

Gina (01:09:31):
So what were some of the things that you used to kind of
deal with her Like?
Was it like very forcefulboundary setting?
Or like what were the toolsthat you ended up learning that
were good for both personal andprofessional?

Ginny (01:09:45):
Boundaries.
She didn't respect boundaries.

Gina (01:09:47):
No well, they usually don't.
Toxic people usually don't.

Ginny (01:09:50):
But yeah, so I started reducing my interactions and
contact with her.
I wouldn't answer her phonecalls cause she would call me a
lot of times, like outside ofwork hours.
I would try to keep allcommunication on email so that
it was documented.

(01:10:11):
And then I started actuallytracking things.
It was the first time in myentire career I did go to HR.
They didn't do anything aboutit, but I had like clear
documentation.
She actually had called me.
She had the audacity to call meon New Year's Eve at like after
5.30 PM to tell me that she totell me that she had a problem

(01:10:34):
with my social media and I waslike, cool, unfollow me.
And then like, and that was myreaction.
I was like, okay, well then,unfollow me.

Gina (01:10:45):
We are colleagues, a lot of it is how you react to the
situation, cause you can'tcontrol anyone, and I had to
learn this the hard way, causemy business partner and I'm like
we don't really get along and Ihad to realize like if I react
a certain way, he will react adifferent way.
So, once I changed myself,things kind of got better.

Ginny (01:11:08):
Yep.

Gina (01:11:08):
Yeah, so yeah, exactly Like.
Oh, sorry to hear that Maybedon't follow me.

Ginny (01:11:13):
Yeah, but then she wanted to go down this well, other
people from work follow you.
And I was like, okay.
And then she said, well, youknow, everyone else is just out
there working so hard.
I said, oh well, now you'requestioning my work ethic and we
were equals.
We were both like we were bothdirectors and then senior
directors.
So we were equals, like itwasn't like I worked for her.

(01:11:35):
And then I did tell her.
I said, well, actually our bossis aware of some of the
extracurricular things that I dooutside of work and she's
supportive.

Gina (01:11:46):
So basically go after yourself, lady, yeah.

Ginny (01:11:48):
So it was just like you said you have to.
You can't control otherpeople's reactions, the way they
behave, but you can control howyou respond and that's, you
know, at the end of the day, allyou can do.
So I just I tried to limit myinteractions with her.
There's this really passive,aggressive thing that she did.
We had this leadership meetingand at the end of it it was very

(01:12:11):
risky.
I wasn't sure how I felt aboutit to begin with, but they had
everybody write a piece ofanonymous feedback and then it
went into an envelope.
And then you took all of thatanonymous feedback and went back
to your room and read it andhers was extremely passive,
aggressive, like and I thinkwhen you get to the point, when

(01:12:33):
you understand people'sbehaviors and intentions behind
that, it doesn't affect youanymore.
You're like this isn't about me, this is about them you know
Like there's something going onwith them, yeah.
Yeah, and I think one of thebiggest lessons that I've
learned is, once you start toremove the toxic behaviors from
your life, you know, like Iremoved the toxic romantic

(01:12:56):
relationship, I removed sometoxic families or family members
, a toxic friend and toxic workenvironments, and what that does
is it opens up and allows somuch space for all of the good.
And there's a study thatscientists did in Kenya where
they observed a troop of baboonsand in that troop of baboons
there's kind of, there's likethree groups.

(01:13:17):
There's a group of aggressive,abusive, domineering males.
There is a group of more kind,amiable, you know, friendly
males, and then there was agroup of women and the female
baboons were nurturing and warmand loving and caring, and the
abusive domineering males wentout to scavenge for food and

(01:13:40):
they came across a garbage pen,like a garbage bin, full of meat
.
They devoured it.
Well, that meat was tainted andunfortunately they all died.
And so you think about whathappens in a community after you
remove those toxic behaviors.

(01:14:01):
Do the other males that weremore amiable and kind take over
those domineering, abusive,aggressive behaviors, or does a
more harmonious, empathetic, youknow, nurturing culture evolve?
And it was the latter, and yeah, so I love to use that as an
example because I think that'sjust in nature generally and I

(01:14:23):
can tell you the same thinghappened for me Once I stepped
out of toxic work environments,removed the toxic you know
coworkers from my life andpeople from my life like now.
It's just all authentic,genuine, warm, kind, caring
people and your relationshipsflourish so much more because
that's what you're focused on.

Gina (01:14:45):
Yeah, and you feel safer, which is something like Nicola
loves, the whole psychologicalsafety aspect of, you know,
being everything everythingreally like personal and work,
but then you can feel safe to bevulnerable, and that's where
all the growth happens, right.
Yeah, you can ask the questionthat maybe previously that you

(01:15:05):
thought someone would make funof you for being such a stupid
question to ask.
You know, whatever yeah.

Ginny (01:15:11):
Absolutely.
I talk about it in my podcast.
I just recently started openingup about it.
I have a narcissistic mother.

Nicola (01:15:18):
Oh, dinner and brother Mom, they have fun time.

Ginny (01:15:22):
And brother.
Yeah, so I actually about ayear, a little over a year and a
half ago, I ended up going nocontact with my mom in 2020.
I consciously started steppingaway from my brother, like just
not engaging anymore Gray RockMethod and it's been really
great, but that was a big, thatwas a big part of the journey

(01:15:45):
for me.
And then doing that inner childwork, like if people haven't
done that, that's really reallya big part of my journey too.
Like for me it was like I wasable to meditate and go back to
that four year old little girlthat basically became an adult
because I had to, I had to takecare of myself and I was like,
oh, I got this, but yeah, so Ido talk about that in a podcast

(01:16:07):
and it was my hardest breakup.
Like I don't think that anybodythat oftentimes children that
step away from a narcissisticparent.
People are like, well, that'syour only mom, that's your dad,
that's so-and-so, and like theonus is on that person.
It's like you don't understandwhat we've been through in the
emotional abuse and manipulationand trauma and that is the last

(01:16:31):
resort.
Like they don't realize thatyou've tried everything.

Nicola (01:16:34):
It's not really a fear and that's something that people
don't can't really wrap theirheads around is it's like you've
had to kind of self-raiseversus oh, we have such a loving
family, I'm not very mad.

Ginny (01:16:48):
And I think that's a big part of the reason why I was
brought into these children'slives is to help break that
cycle for them and their family,because every kid deserves
unconditional love from twoparents Absolutely, and I only
had unconditional love from oneparent and they only had
unconditional love from oneparent, and so I'm happy that I
still get to be in their livesto be able to hopefully for them

(01:17:13):
to receive that yeah.

Gina (01:17:16):
So were you just Adam?
This is just because I got madat some of the women in my life
at that time who knew what wasgoing on but just chose not to
tell me.
Yeah, and when confronted, theywere like well, we thought you
knew and it's like you don'tknow what you don't know.
It was just mind-boggling to methat his ex, who now seems like

(01:17:42):
you're close to, did she knowthis was going on and did she
warn you?
Or how close were you?
It sounds like you didcommunicate with her on your own
, aside from him, because youmentioned that you had asked her
if you could switch the kids'days or whatever.

Ginny (01:17:58):
So we didn't communicate a lot.
He did a really good job ofkeeping us apart.
So when we first started dating, it was like in the first month
, he was like I can't wait foryou to meet my kids.
And I was like what Well, whatdoes their mom say about this?
Because for me I immediatelywent into like I'm not a mother,
I don't have biologicalchildren of my own, but I would

(01:18:18):
want to know who my kids arearound right.
So like instantly, I put myselfin her shoes, because I am an
empath also.
So it's like you have you wantto.

Nicola (01:18:28):
That's the worst for narcissists.
Oh, I know.

Gina (01:18:32):
That's probably why they're like you're preyed on
right, Because they see that.

Ginny (01:18:36):
Yeah.

Gina (01:18:37):
They just love that juicy little snack bit.

Ginny (01:18:41):
So she.
It was the first time that thechildren, her children, had
consistency.
It was the first time, sincethey had split up, that she felt
that her children were safethat they were loved and that
they were cared for.
And it was.
And like this is the good stuffbut also the hard stuff, or

(01:19:04):
like I didn't know any of thatthen and she gave me full range.
She was the only person thatgot to read the book before it
came out, because I wanted tomake sure I was so respectful of
her and the kids that I wantedto make sure that she was
comfortable with everything thatwas in it.
But there was one moment wherewe had been dating for a few

(01:19:24):
months and she confronted himand said I like Ginny, I like
her for our children.
And he was like, oh no, likeI've totally changed.

Gina (01:19:36):
And you know, oh, yes, oh, they always totally changed
within like a minute.

Ginny (01:19:41):
Yeah, they've always totally changed and so but when
I asked about meeting her, I waslike, how do you want?
I'd really like to meet her,just so she knows like and is
comfortable with who's aroundher kids.
And I was like we could meetfor coffee or a glass of wine or
just like when I'm doing schoolpickup or whatever, cause she's
a teacher and that was shetaught at one of the kids'

(01:20:03):
schools.
So and he came back and he waslike, yeah, she just wants to
meet at school pickup.
I was like, okay, that's fine.
Well, fast forward to after wesplit up and her and I start
comparing notes.
She was like he never asked me,he would have never let us be
in the same room together.
But in hindsight, if her and Iwould have sat down and we were

(01:20:25):
just a few months into datingand if she started to tell me
about her experience that shehad with him, what if I just
thought, oh, she's just thecrazy jealous ex and he would
have spun it that way, right,like we're all crazy.
You know he's telling peoplethat I'm my book and I'm ruining
his life because it's all lies.

(01:20:47):
Well, if it's all lies andyou're such a wonderful,
upstanding citizen and generalgood guy.
Just keep going and doing thegood in the world, but yeah.

Gina (01:20:58):
Is that what Chad used to say to you?
You're my favorite.

Ginny (01:21:03):
So I coined that, because saying I love you is very
difficult for me, so I coinedyou're my favorite, as are I
love you.

Nicola (01:21:14):
Yes, yeah, it's a thing right, because when you've got
narcissistic parents, you don'thave the option of saying that.

Ginny (01:21:20):
Yeah, you don't know, like it's such a learning
journey.
So, yeah, so that's where inthe name of the book, I changed
it last minute.
It had a completely differentworking name for three years and
then I changed it last minuteand it just really fit.
But the girl I call her thetoddler that he dated for a

(01:21:41):
while because she was like 25and he was 45.
Shut up, I can't stand you.
I'm the worst.
Sometimes I love it.
So the girl that was livingwith him at the time when my
book came out, she had reachedout to me and she was like he
tells, that's what he says to me, like he literally all of this,
like he pulls and he just usesand recycles the same tactics

(01:22:02):
over and over.
Yeah, so Gross.

Gina (01:22:05):
Yeah, refer them to the secret Facebook page.

Ginny (01:22:10):
Yes, there you go.

Gina (01:22:13):
Oh my God.
Well, this has been such.
This is literally on such ajourney, right it?

Ginny (01:22:18):
has.

Gina (01:22:19):
It has.
It's been a journey.
There's been plot holes, plottwists, rather and different,
like we veered off, but it hasbeen.
I really enjoyed it.
Nicola, do you have anyquestions or anything you want
to say?

Nicola (01:22:35):
I'd say you know, tell us where our listeners can find
you.
Give us all the details as towhere they can hunt you down.

Ginny (01:22:43):
Sure, All of my stuff is just my name, Ginny Prem.
So I hang out on social mediathe most on Instagram.
That's Ginny Prem.
My website is Ginny Prem, so ifyou are looking to book me for
motivational speaking engagement, my website is the best place
to do that.
My book you can buy on Amazon.
It's called You're my Favorite.

(01:23:03):
My podcast is Drinking With Gin, which can be listened to on
any of the major platforms.
So whatever you're listening tothis on, you should be able to
find Drinking With Gin.
And then I just launched mynewsletter so you can sign up
for that as well through any ofmy links.

Gina (01:23:22):
Yeah, you're enough.
This one hit close to home forme, so it was.
But it was so nice Like I couldtalk about it so calmly because
like it truly does not make adifference to me anymore.

Nicola (01:23:33):
Yeah, all right, it's been awesome having you on, so
thank you.

Gina (01:23:37):
Yeah, we really appreciate it.

Ginny (01:23:38):
Thank you for having me.
Thank you so much for having me.

Gina (01:23:41):
I'm actually looking up your podcast right now and I'm
going to subscribe, subscribeand follow.

Nicola (01:23:47):
Just for anyone that's listening, subscribe and follow
all of our podcasts Outs Ginny's.
Everybody's just do that.

Ginny (01:23:54):
And leave a review.
Leaving a review is so nice.
Leave a five star review forthis podcast today.

Nicola (01:24:01):
Thank you, ginny.
Yes, and when you listen to.
Ginny's podcast do the samething.

Gina (01:24:07):
Yes, Unequivocally.
If your podcast is even like asfun as this was, I'm sure it's
more fun.
It should get five star reviewall the time.

Nicola (01:24:18):
Absolutely All right.
Well, it has been awesome andwe really appreciate your time
and the fact that you've takenour time today to talk to us not
only about, like this salaciousdrama behind your book, but
also your experience in toxicworkplaces.

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