S2E8: Confronting Toxic Masculinity through the Power of Play with Jeff Harry

Have you ever wondered how toxic masculinity manifests in the workplace? Join us as we engage in a deep conversation with Jeff Harry, a specialist who's on a mission to purge workplace toxicity. A journey that started at Toys R Us and led to the creation of the innovative workshop, Rediscover Your Play - Jeff's narrative is both insightful and thought-provoking. He draws upon his personal experiences, exploring the challenges of toxic masculinity and the negative impact it can have on work environments.

Does traditional masculine leadership live up to its glorified image, or is there more than meets the eye? Not shying away from using real-life examples, from Elon Musk to Jeff Bezos, we dissect the negative ramifications of such leadership - resource exploitation, employee layoffs, and overall dissatisfaction. 

The discussion then shifts towards the importance of 'play' in fostering harmonious relationships and combating toxic behavior in the workplace. We wrap up our enlightening conversation by exploring the significance of empathy, balance, and healthy femininity in transfor

Welcome to Season 2, where we embark on authentic and unfiltered conversations about life, relationships, society, and more. Our opinions are solely our own and don't represent professional advice. It's just our perspective, so form your conclusions. Heads up, this podcast may contain adult content and explicit language. Let's dive in!
 
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Episode Transcript

Nicola (00:00):
What's up?
Good morning Jeff.
How are you?

Jeff (00:05):
I'm doing quite well, very excited about our discussion.

Nicola (00:10):
Ooh, stop us.
We're a little bit excited too.
We thought this would be, weare too.
We are hey, hey, hey, hey.

Gina (00:18):
We haven't actually had anyone who's like a man who
wants to talk about toxic men.

Jeff (00:23):
What I know, Men just really love talking about
themselves.
I mean, and Barbie I mean.
Goodness, you both saw it right.

Nicola (00:36):
I did it.
You need to.
It's cute, but it's also likeit's cute and then it's also
subversive.

Jeff (00:45):
It's so subversive, I love it All right.

Gina (00:48):
So before we get into it, tell us who you are, what you're
going to talk about, and I'lljust tell you a little bit about
yourself.

Nicola (00:56):
Where are you calling from?
Tell us all the deeds.

Jeff (01:00):
All the deeds.
Okay, so my name is Jeff Harry,I live in Oakland, california.
I run an organization calledRediscover your Play and the
whole goal is to make work suckless, because I travel all over
the country and sometimes otherparts of the world and everyone

(01:21):
just hates work right now, likeeveryone is just so angry, I
mean, and it's to the point thatI talk to people a lot and
they're just like I don't evenwant to work, like any job, like
I'm just done and I think I'llhave a lot of it.

Gina (01:35):
I would like to now work?

Jeff (01:36):
Yeah right, wouldn't that just be like amazing or heck,
the amount of people that I'vetalked to where I'm like
universal basic income wouldgive them freedom to pursue some
art or some other thing thatthey actually want to do?
As for my origin story, myorigin story is Did you ever see

(01:56):
the movie Big with Tom Hanks?
So I saw that movie when I wasin third grade and I was like
you can play with toys for aliving and I was like that's a
job.
So I started writing toycompanies in third grade and
then I did not stop until I gotinto the toy industry.
And I don't know if you've evergotten exactly what you've

(02:17):
always wanted and then been sodisappointed when you got it
Like I feel like we startedhearing this story since we
started doing this podcast.

Gina (02:26):
People are like I got the job that I've always wanted and
then it was terrible, or I endedup hating the company that I
used to love so much.

Jeff (02:33):
It's like yeah, so I have like I was really has that, but
like I was working for a toycompany, thinking there would be
toys, thinking there would beplay, thinking there would be
high fives and people that arehappy.
None of that Snacks.
Like definitely snacks, at leastsome snacks.
But instead it was just toxicpeople, a lot of egos and a lot

(02:55):
of like backstabbing and I waslike what is happening?
Like where's the joy, where'sthe fun?
So I left.
I was in New York at the time.
I left there, I came to the SanFrancisco Bay Area.
I piddled around for a while.
I had no idea what I was doing.
I did a bunch of odd jobs andthen I found a job on Craigslist
, which is a super shady site inthe US.

Gina (03:17):
I feel like it's gotten shadier.

Jeff (03:19):
It's even gotten shadier, like you pick up furniture on
that site or you havemisconnections.
But I found a job teaching kidsengineering with Lego so and it
was just like, ooh, I got toplay with Lego for living and I
joined this organization.
It was only seven people at thetime and us nerds were able to
grow it into 400 people and itbecame like the largest Lego

(03:43):
inspired STEM organization inthe US.
And while we did that, we gotthe attention of Silicon Valley.
So then they were like, hey, doyou do team building events?
And we're like, of course we do.
No, we didn't, we were justmaking stuff up.

Gina (03:54):
You always say yes.
Entrepreneurs always say yes.
You just say yes, you want noone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Figure it out on the back side.

Jeff (04:00):
Figure it out on the back end right.

Gina (04:02):
Yeah.
We're building gigantic.

Jeff (04:04):
Right.
We started building giganticthings out of Lego.
We started partnering with Lego, we started working with Google
and Facebook and all thesecompanies, and I was expecting
them to be the best right,because they're supposed to be
so amazing and they were toxicplaces too.
There were a lot of people thatwere not happy at those jobs
and these were considered thebest companies in the world.

(04:26):
So then, in like 2019, Icreated Rediscovery or Play
because I was like I want tomake workshops that address why
work sucks so much.
So the first workshop I evermade was called Dealing with
A-Holes in the Workplace throughPlay, and I went to Boston, I
went to Australia to speak aboutit.

(04:47):
Yeah, I just went all over theall over with my friend, gary
Ware, and then, since then, allof my workshops are about
healing workplaces and justaddressing toxicity and toxic
masculinity in the workplace.

Gina (05:01):
So when did you become aware Like when was your the
light bulb moment about thetoxic masculinity at work?

Jeff (05:10):
Oh well, I became aware of toxic masculinity in fifth
grade, when I was at the momentwhen I was at the mall with my
sisters and they got catcallsand then they can, and I would.
Always I was like dudes aregross, like, like that was one
of my first conclusion Like whyis dude so gross?
And then I realized that I waslike, oh, I'm a dude, I'm a dude

(05:32):
Like oh.
So I had already like dealtwith that many times with my
sisters, with a lot of myfriends I identify as women, but
I I didn't.
I knew it was toxicity in theworkplace with, like, my first
job at Toys R Us, but I didn'tknow it was toxic masculinity

(05:55):
until I started to see thatpattern at almost every company
I was at, where a majority ofthe most incompetent leaders
were men and they also were themeanest, and I was.
And then it wasn't even justthat, but even the women that
were also toxic embraced a lotof toxic masculine traits.

(06:16):
So they started acting like alot of the men, because that's
what was supposed to be, likethe type of leadership Right.

Gina (06:23):
That was the model of leadership.

Jeff (06:24):
That was the model.

Gina (06:25):
In order to get ahead, they need to adopt those, you
know, ideals.

Jeff (06:31):
So I remember working for Toys R Us, right, and this was
like 2000.
So I was working for thecorporate office.

Gina (06:38):
Wait that was also old.

Jeff (06:41):
Wait what.

Gina (06:43):
You were all so old, I'm like I know I'm like.
I know.
I'm like, I'm like I know, I'mlike I know, I'm like I know,
I'm like I know.

Jeff (06:50):
Let me tell you about black and white television,
everybody, it was amazing.
Rotary phone, world War II ohmy God.

Nicola (06:56):
We were just talking about this the other day and I
was like do we all remember dialup and then you couldn't get a
telephone call, like your momwould get a call, yeah, and it
would drop out your internet.

Gina (07:07):
Oh my God, it was the worst and you'd be like don't
take calls.

Nicola (07:11):
I'm like I am in Right.

Jeff (07:14):
Or to remember when you're on a call with a, with your
friends or or, heaven forbidyou're the person you're dating
and you had to bring the longcord yeah To the bathroom and
then, and then someone elsewould get on and you'd be like
get off the phone, get a eyeball.
I'm out right now.

Gina (07:33):
Is someone there?
Are you breathing?
Someone's breathing.
Who's there?

Jeff (07:37):
Someone's.
I know someone's there.
Get off, jeff.

Nicola (07:40):
That's what I would we did grace for a second because
our telephone number, our hometelephone number in South Africa
, was one digit off a radiostation.
Yeah.
But we'd get these radiostation calls and it would be
like, can I talk to like so andso on the radio?
And I'd be like, yeah, sure,please hold the line, and I'd

(08:03):
put just the phone next to thething and just walk away.

Jeff (08:07):
That is amazing.
So actually this reminds me,and then I'll eventually answer
your question.
But this reminds me.
So one of the reasons why itbecame so aware of toxic
masculinity, without knowingwhat the words were, was my
sisters would come home fromlike a fight with their
boyfriend and they'd go right upto me and they go if you do

(08:29):
what he did to me, I'll cut yourballs off, like if you ever do
this to a girl.
But they never told me whatthey did, so I just didn't do
anything during high schoolbecause I was like very scared
of what might happen.
So that made me aware.
So yeah, so anyway, when Ijoined Toys R Us, I was at the
corporate office in New Jersey.

(08:50):
I was living in Brooklyn andthen 9-Eleven happened while I
was there and I lived inBrooklyn but I was commuting to
New Jersey and right then andthere I was.
Just like I don't want to diein a cubicle, like just seeing
it happen firsthand.
Yeah, Like you know, I couldhear that so that I left.
but I stayed with Toys R Us andI helped open their store, their

(09:14):
largest toy store in the world,the Times Square Toys R Us.
It had the biggest Ferris wheelin a toy store ever and it had
the literally had the JurassicPark T-Rex from the first movie
and my job was to play with toysunderneath the T-Rex.
So I was like this is a dopejob, the way in which you got

(09:35):
the job.
You had to sing the Toys R Ustheme song.
So everyone's just like I wantto be a Toys R Us kid.
Like, like everyone was likefamily right, and then right
after Christmas family justdisappeared and they just laid
off everybody.
They fired people at 3 am, likethe whole night crew.
They would have them work likea few hours and then they just

(09:59):
had cops escort them out orsecurity escort them out.

Gina (10:02):
Yep, like with no like no, warning no warning, no warning.

Jeff (10:10):
And then with us during the daytime, they would just ask
us to go downstairs and thenyou'd never see the person again
because again they would getescorted out.
And when that happened, I waslike I was 22 years old and I
was like this is just not right.
So I wrote a manifesto.
I didn't know what it was, butI wrote this document outlining

(10:31):
like how messed up that was, andI printed like 60 copies.

Gina (10:36):
Oh, my God, and.

Jeff (10:36):
I just put him.
I put him in mailboxes likeJerry Maguire, not realizing
what I was doing, and then theythought I was trying to unionize
the store when I didn't evenknow what I was doing.

Gina (10:47):
But I was just like this is wrong, you were just like
saying, like you were pointingout a wrong that you saw, yeah.
Did you even know would like atthat age and at that time,
would you even know how tounionize anything?
No, I wouldn't know, I wouldhave been like what's
unionization?

Jeff (11:03):
Someone came up to me and was like you need to talk to
this person and I was like aboutwhat?
I was like I don't know whatI'm doing.
I was like what does thatactually mean to unionize?
And that freaked them outbecause that was their flagship
store and if that happened there, then it could happen across
the entire country, if notbigger.
So then I started gettingostracized more and more.

(11:24):
My hours got cut, however, Iwas speaking to two or three
people.
A manager would come over tobreak it up and then I just
eventually just left.
I stayed with Toys R Us for alittle bit longer, like I
transferred to their location inthe West Coast because I just
wanted to get out of New York.
But yeah, that was my firstexperience of like oh like.

(11:47):
Work kind of sucks when youhave crappy leadership.

Gina (11:51):
I mean, I don't know.

Nicola (11:54):
You go ahead, nicola.
Oh no, I was going to say OK.
So we're starting to see toxicpositivity.

Jeff (12:00):
You just love that topic.
We can talk about that toolater.
Yeah.

Nicola (12:04):
Circle all the way back around.
So you're seeing toxicmasculinity from your sisters?
All right, I want to.
I'm curious to know, like, howdid that change your thinking?
Like, other than beingterrified about losing your dick
, yeah, how did it change yourthinking?
Did you start identifying likesituations where you're like, oh

(12:25):
my God, like who are thesepeople?

Jeff (12:28):
Yeah, I mean because I always had more, you know,
female friends or women thatidentified, as you know,
identified that way than men,and just listening to their
stories I was like I was alwayslike, oh, I don't want to be
that dude, like I can't be thatdude.
But when I started seeing it inthe workplace, I saw it as just

(12:51):
like a lot of insecurity, likemasked in aggression, right.
So then, you know, a few yearslater, I worked on the Obama
campaign Great, greatorganization at the time.
They got, they got, you know,him elected.
That was awesome.
But then there was thisoutgrowth of the Obama campaign
called Organizing for Americaand I worked for them and I had

(13:15):
a toxic masculine boss who waslike clearly feeling insecure
and, because of that, wouldconstantly make these arbitrary
metrics that we had to hit sothat he looked good, and that
just got it really exhausting.
You know, and just knowing, themore and more I talked to him

(13:35):
and realized like how insecurehe was, a lot of things we were
just doing just because this guydid not know who he was, and I
was like, is this happeningeverywhere?
I was like, what is?
Why is this the case?
So then, of course, again, Ileft that organization and the
way I left that organization atthe time was like three of us

(13:57):
quit at the same time, you know,and we were in charge of like
running a pretty significantpart of California in organizing
around like healthcare andeducation, and they continued to
hire toxic leaders and I waslike I don't get it.

Gina (14:17):
That's not for you.
Yeah, what do you think?
You said aggression andinsecurity.
So what do you think are likethe traits of a toxic, a
toxically male leader?

Jeff (14:33):
That's.
I love that.
You asked that is.
I'm literally about to do aworkshop, a virtual workshop
called why Ted Lasso's masculineand feminine leadership matters
, and I where did I break itdown here?
So, traits that I talk about alot is bullying, avoiding losing
at all costs, restraining one'semotions during conflict, you

(14:59):
know, showing that strengththrough aggression, right, and
then constantly trying toexhibit dominance while masking,
you know, insecurity and acertain level of weakness.
So those are the traits thatI've seen and I talk about it
all the time like you see it inElon Musk, you see it in Steve
Ubs, you saw it in Jeff Bezos,you see it with the Wolf of Wall

(15:22):
Street, and what's funny is allthese dudes are celebrated Like
they're all celebrated as likegeniuses and monarchs of
industry, you know, and they'rejust as horrible as like
Rockefeller and all those otherpeople back in the 1930s and 40s
of just exploiting people andthen doing a really good job, a

(15:45):
really good PR job, of making itlook like they're really smart,
when, frankly, look what ElonMusk has done for Twitter right,
it's gone, it's literally done.
He's done that Right, Like hedestroyed it.
You know, and I even walkedthrough a whole method of like
October of 2022, he comes inwith like a kitchen sink, being

(16:07):
like I'm going to throw awayeverything but the kitchen sink.
Remember that Like so cocky.

Nicola (16:11):
We literally spoke to someone from Twitter yesterday
morning who?
Told us that story?
Who was working?

Gina (16:18):
during that takeover and they said it was like a hostile
takeover.
Yeah.
So he was.
So the, the person weinterviewed said that Elon Musk
brought the sink in to say, like, let that sink in like.
Oh my gosh, so stupid, likeagain which is even worse than

(16:38):
I'm throwing everything out butthe chicken.
So, but the chicken sink.

Jeff (16:43):
The chicken sink.
The chicken sink.

Gina (16:48):
That's also a chicken.

Jeff (16:50):
Right, but you know they might have already expressed
this, but, like, the first thinghe did was he got rid of all
the employee resource groups.
So any resource group that wasaround women leadership, any
resource group around LGBTQ, anyresource groups around there
was one called Blackbirds, whichwas black women taken away

(17:13):
immediately.
Right, that was the first stephe did to make it just an unsafe
space.
And then he started layingpeople off.
And then he laid off way toomany people that he didn't even
realize that he had laid off waytoo many people.
Like it's unbelievable what hedid.

Gina (17:29):
The ex Twitter employee said the majority of people who
are left are people here on likeeight.
What is it?
H1b visa.

Jeff (17:36):
Yeah, h1b, yep.

Gina (17:38):
OK.

Jeff (17:39):
So he has control over them, yeah.

Gina (17:42):
That's exactly what this Did he talk about, or?

Jeff (17:45):
did the Twitter employee talk about the hardcore, the
hardcore thing?

Nicola (17:49):
Yeah, well, you either you have to sign, like a loyalty
thing, and yeah, went into thatas well, it was.

Jeff (17:57):
So when he did that and I could even share my screen if
you want to see it, but when hedid that it showed there's a
really powerful photo of freeElon that shows a significant
amount of women.
And then post Elon where allthose dudes that like hung out
with him at 1 am and did code orwhatever, and it's all these

(18:19):
dudes that look just like him,they did code.

Gina (18:21):
And then you were like no, they did code.

Jeff (18:24):
Yeah, it was just like dude this is just ridiculous.
So yeah, and then he's likeconsidered really smart.

Gina (18:31):
When SpaceX is struggling, tesla is losing money, like and
I don't why, I think at the endof the day, when we had that
amazing interview with the exTwitter employee, we all came to
the conclusion like do youthink it can even be saved?
And it's like if he gets out ofhis own way it could
potentially be saved, but theway it looks right now it

(18:55):
doesn't seem that way, like Ifeel like this was a terrible
investment on his part, and heeven tried to back out of it.

Jeff (19:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because he, he really and that's just
one example right, like, I don'twant to just focus on him, but
it's this idea of like.
Same example with with JeffBezos 1999, jeff Bezos, a lot of
people like that guy that itwas the one of the coolest
places, addressing one of someof the most interesting tech

(19:22):
issues that were people werefacing at the time.
Right, like, even like, can weeven sell books online?
Right, so it was a place to be.
But then he bought into his ownBS, right, and now, now he's
like launching, you know,rockets into space that look
like his wing, like it's just,it's ridiculous.
That's like.

Gina (19:42):
Also like his whole body transformation from like.

Jeff (19:47):
I know.

Gina (19:48):
Like regular, like dad, bod kind of to like somebody
who's on Annabar to a villain,to strip to a villain.

Jeff (19:56):
I haven't seen this, so.

Gina (19:58):
I mean, it's a great body transformation, but I feel like
that, coupled with that immensewealth, makes people oh yeah.
Kind of like go a little nuts.
Yeah, oh my God, he does looklike Licks Luther.

Jeff (20:13):
Yeah, he is like, exactly like him and like again.
You get so detached fromreality and you buy into your
own BS.
No, but I mean, but but tying itto Barbie, because I loved
Barbie and how much they talkedabout the patriarchy right and
talk to they show like thepatriarchy does not benefit most

(20:33):
men, Like most men are not Elon, Most men are not Jeff Bezos.
But that is what's sold to you.
That's what's sold to men Likeyou have to be this way, Like
there's even the whole AndrewTate, Joe Rogan, man O'sphere
movement pushes this thing oflike you have to be a high value
man, which means you have tohave a lot of money, you have to

(20:55):
have a lot of muscles, andthat's when you start in a
really nice car and house sothat you can get the girl right,
and it's just like dude.
Women don't even want that.
Most women don't want just that.
They want someone that hasemotional intelligence.
But you know, we're not evenfocused on that.
We're focused on trying to belike these toxic dudes and like

(21:18):
these alpha males yeah.
Yeah, these, but these fakealpha males right, because I
even used to talk about thisalpha male is not even a real
thing.

Gina (21:28):
So what do you think?
So wait now.
I'm interested in alpha male.
What is the definition, in youropinion, of what an alpha male
is, and why doesn't it actuallyexist?

Jeff (21:38):
So my understanding, and let me make sure I get this
right.
Because I feel like if youliterally type in, alpha male is
fake, you know, a bunch ofarticles come up about it, right
, and so the term alpha male wasfirst invented by David Meck.

(22:00):
And what he was?
He was a.
He was a scientist that wasstudying wolves.
And he was studying wolves andcaptivity for a for a book
called the Wolf Ecology andBehavior of Endangered Species.

Nicola (22:15):
Makes sense.

Jeff (22:16):
So what?
But what he noticed was that hewas studying wolves and
captivity.
But when he he revised itbecause those alpha males were
the ones that were like top dogand you know I have to be the
best and blah, blah, blah.
But then when he he changedthat study in 1999, when he
studied wolf packs out in thewild and he found that there was

(22:39):
no alpha male that somebodyelse brought this study up on
one of our interviews and I'mblanking who it was.

Gina (22:46):
But they said once the alpha male was removed yeah, the
pack, the sort of middle menwho were like helpful towards
the women, the women wolves.

Nicola (22:59):
No, it was monkeys.
It was monkeys, and then allthe monkeys die Like.

Gina (23:04):
All the bad monkeys were taken out and the whole system
changed Like it was so much morelike like peaceful and walking
towards a similar goal and wasthat what this guy also found.
Well, no, this is.

Jeff (23:17):
This is slightly different .
So David Meck found in 1999that the wolf pack is run by a
strong female and a strong male,right, and they look out for
the most vulnerable, the oldestof the wolves, and usually the
strong female wolf is sometimesthe strongest, so she.
So she walks from the back.

(23:37):
You know covering thevulnerability, right and so, and
then anyone that exhibitscertain alpha male qualities
that is affecting the pack canget ostracized, right.
So really, what the study ofalpha males is, it's the study
of insecure animals in captivity, like in a jail or something
like that.
So when a guy goes, I'm analpha male, really, what you're

(24:01):
saying is you're a scared animalin prison.
That's really what you'resaying.
So so it's funny that we usethe term and we're claiming the
term because, like, that term iseven incorrect.
Like you know, you don't wantto be that, because that is not
actually healthy.

Gina (24:18):
Why is alpha male almost used like interchangeably with
you know, like with being asuccessful man?

Jeff (24:26):
Because, in my opinion, us men are looking for a quick
answer for how we show up, rightLike we don't know what that
means to be a man, right.
So we're like you know, we'reconstantly looking for what that
means.
You know, you've always weretold, especially if you know you
had, like a very patriarchalfamily of just like, be a man,

(24:49):
suck it up, you know.
You know, don't cry all thesethings.
And if you grow up in thatsociety where you feel very
unsafe, then you're like OK, Iwant to be a man.
Who's a man here?
That guy, the guy that'sbullying everyone?
Or that guy that has all thepower?
I wouldn't say he's bullyingeveryone, because I'd be like
that guy is the coolest, thatguy is getting the most women,

(25:10):
that guy has the most money,that guy has the most power.
So I want to be that right.
That's usually what you do whenyou're coming from an insecure
place.
That's why a lot of dudes joinfrats when they first arrive to
university Because, again, theydon't know who they are and
they're scared that they'll lookstupid.

(25:31):
So if they join a frat, thenthey'll be surrounded by other
men and they can act a littlebit stronger, right, like.
Those are some of the thingsthat we do because we're coming
from a place of a lot of fear.

Gina (25:45):
OK, so what if you have someone who is successful, who
can be aggressive but is alsokind like aggressive when needed
?
Are you like that?

Jeff (25:54):
never happens.
I haven't seen that.
I haven't seen that right.
Like you know, I talk a lotabout healthy masculinity.
And what's healthy masculinity?
You know, your willingness tobe vulnerable, your willingness
to say that you're wrong.
Right, like in parts of SouthAsia, men hold hands.
Straight men hold hands.

(26:14):
If you did that in America,you'd be considered gay, which
is so scary for a straight manto be told because then that
demasculates guys.
If you notice, any time a movielike Barbie comes out or or
someone like I think it was likeMichael B Jordan was was like
hugging another guy and he's astraight guy they were like why

(26:37):
are women always trying todemasculate us?
Like it triggers so many menthat we're like no, we're not
allowed to be men anymore.
Right, because they're soworried about power being taken
from them.
And they think that that iswhat's happening right now,
especially because women aregraduating in a faster rate than

(26:57):
men, women are beginning toearn more than men and we're
scrambling because we don't knowwhat to do.
So there's like been thisbacklash of men being like oh
well, women are just golddiggers.
Well, actually that doesn'tmake sense.
They make more money than us,they don't need our money
anymore.
So that's not a good argument.
Well, they're, you know, theyjust hate men and they're all.

(27:21):
They, just, they, just, theyjust all want to be lesbians or
something they like.
Just make all these, we makeall these claims up because we
don't want to face the realityof like.
We haven't evolved, we haven'tgotten better, we're still
embracing a lot of thepatriarchal things that were
happening in the 1950s, and itscares us because we don't know

(27:45):
how to get better as a, as asociety.
So there's this reallyinteresting comedian called Bill
Burr.
We know him.

Gina (27:53):
And you know some people like him.

Jeff (27:56):
Some people you know these all over the place, right but
he had this really good joke oflike 10 years ago where he talks
about any time a guy is withother guys any straight guys,
let's just talk.
We're just talking straightguys and a straight guy does
something reasonable Like it'sraining and he has an umbrella,

(28:16):
he pulls out his umbrella.

Nicola (28:19):
All the other guys will be like look at this fucking guy
with his umbrella.

Jeff (28:24):
Like you, know, like what a you know, and the derogatory
gay term right, the F term right, and or like he orders pancakes
with bananas and he's like thisguy ordered pancakes with
bananas.
Do you want to stick thatbanana up your ass?
Like, oh my God, I wasn't aboutto say that.

(28:44):
See like there's this constanttrying to insult the guy by
demasculating him and sayingyou're gay, when what's really
interesting is so many thingsthat a lot of straight men do,
especially like sports, likefootball, are quite intimate.

(29:08):
Like you're putting your hand,like, right in that dude's ass
as you're getting a ball, right,you know, when you wrestle I
just heard this when theywrestle they'll stick a finger
up at each other's butts as,like a way, as part of the
strategy, right?
Or like so weird stuff where,like, I think there's a lot of
closeted gay men that are notable to express that.

(29:33):
So then they go over the topwith being like, I'm a man, I'm
a straight man and I'm gonnamake fun of you as much as
possible.
When we're all in a genderspectrum, right, like when we're
all, like, can we embrace thefact that, like you, I can find
a guy attractive and also notwant to sleep with this guy,

(29:53):
right.
But can you say that with othermen?
Oh no, that would be consideredgay, right?
So I think we overtly do thosejokes as a way of masking the
fact that, like, maybe we wantto communicate a certain level
of intimacy, but I can't.

Gina (30:13):
That's where I ended up with.
I was like you know, like guysare so weird, like that, and I
asked him.
I was like do you think it'sjust like?
You know they really like eachother, but they don't know how
to be like that, like that's myguy like I really like him.
I love like we say that aboutour girlfriends, right, I'll be
like nobody needs to fuck withso-and-so because that's my girl
.
I got her Like I love her somuch, but that's not acceptable

(30:37):
for men to say it.

Jeff (30:38):
So then it comes out like on this, like weird homosexual
bashing kind of thing which Idon't understand Exactly,
because it's that whole thing ofwhat I said earlier, right Of
just like, think about it.
The only time in which two men,two straight men, can hug in
Western culture is when theirteam wins a championship.

(31:02):
Like, can you like?
Think about that?
Like, you know what I'm saying,like embrace and be like I love
you, man, you know, or like, orwhen you're drunk, or something
like that, like it's eitherlooked down upon, so then they
don't know how to express this.
So yeah, then it comes out inall these other weird messed up
sexual innuendo ways, you know,and then they're like I'm just

(31:25):
joking around.
I'm just joking around thewhole time.
I'm joking, I'm joking.
And then that same sexualinnuendo stuff also then is very
dangerous, because then theyactualize that with women.
That then can be veryaggressive sexually to women,
because again they don't knowhow to express them.

Gina (31:44):
They don't know how to be like friends with women as well,
or like they weren't taught howto be intimate emotion.
It's like emotional intimacyand emotional intelligence.
Yes, yes.
I think, like especially inAmerica, I think we're doing
everyone a disservice by notlike teaching, like emotional

(32:05):
maturity somehow.
Yes.
I don't know how you can teachit, that's not obviously not my
forte, but, like once I becameemotionally mature, which I was
a hard case it took me a longtime.
Things got so much better.
I became less angry.
I like was a little bit morelaid back and it's like.
You know, I guess men are justnot taught Like it's okay to

(32:27):
talk about something that'sbothering you.
You don't have to walk aroundand be annoyed.
You know, like, say what'sbothering you, it's not the end
of the world.
You know, say that so-and-so ismy really good friend and I
really like him, like thatsounds less homosexual.
That just sounds like a blanketstatement Like there's no
sexual innuendo, right?
So I can't men just say that.

Jeff (32:47):
But we didn't get to practice that Like, if we got to
practice that as kids then itwouldn't be that big of a deal
now.
But because we didn't get topractice that and the only time
we were able to communicate anylevel of intimacy was, you know,
with our mom or something likethat, right, and anytime, like a

(33:08):
woman showed us any level oflike, emotional, you know safety
, then we were like, oh, thatwoman must be attracted to me
Rather than like that woman isjust being, is being, a friend
of mine, right.
So we also then misinterprethow other people treat us,
because we've never been treatedthat way.
A leader, a male leader, right,will fancy a certain girl or a

(33:34):
certain woman, right, and thenshe doesn't give them the time
of day, starts cutting projects,starts ostracizing her from
meetings, starts punishing herin all these ways, because
that's his only way of gettingback at her, because he showed
her a side of vulnerability thatnow he's like very embarrassed

(33:55):
that he showed to anybody, sothere is a level of
embarrassment to it.
There's a, it's so much shameand embarrassment.
And shame and embarrassmentdrives a lot of toxic behavior
in men.
Right?
Because like we don't wannalook weak, we don't wanna look
like we're demasculated, wedon't wanna look like we don't

(34:16):
know what we're doing and thinkabout it with the most toxic
male leaders.
When was the last time you everheard them say I don't know?
Right, like they are beyondsometimes delusional in their
narcissism.
Remember Fire Festival guy?
Do you remember that dude?

Nicola (34:34):
Oh my God, yes, what a twit.
And now that you're doing Fire2, I can't even deal with my
life, right, nicole?

Jeff (34:43):
Like that dude has the caucasity, not even the audacity
.

Nicola (34:50):
Oh my God, that is the best terminology I think I've
ever heard in my lifetime.
That guy like how the fuck hashe decided that he is fucking?
What are they gonna get thistime?
Like a fucking chicken wrap.

Jeff (35:08):
You just went to jail for this, Like you just went to jail
for Fire Festival, and then injail you were like you know what
?
I got an idea for Another FireFestival.

Nicola (35:21):
Oh boy, what I have the plan for you.

Jeff (35:27):
And he believes people are gonna invest.
And you know what's the crazypart?
Some people might, some crazy,sad individuals might.

Nicola (35:37):
Okay, I'll tell you what they're gonna invest.
They're gonna invest becausethey want their name attached to
the shit show, because they'vegot huge publicity.
They're gonna invest becausethey want the connection.
And you know what people aregonna go?
Because people wanna see thechaos.

Jeff (35:55):
They want.
Well, yeah, it's gonna be likeBurning man, but worse you know,
it's just gonna get stranded,but yeah.
But the caucasity of some menis beyond reproach.
Like you just are amazed attheir boldness, and especially

(36:18):
after they've either gone tojail or lost a ton of money.
The WeWork guy is another greatexample.
Loses a billion dollars atWeWork.
Just got funded for a hundredmillion dollar new fund Like why
?

Nicola (36:32):
are people continuing to give him money?
He's just got big dick energyand then he comes in with his
big dick energy and just getsall the money.

Jeff (36:40):
From, I'm assuming, small penis dudes that also are like I
love this man yeah.

Gina (36:47):
It's bizarre, but he's like to me he's like the
definition of a co-leader, likehe has, like it's even beyond
toxic masculinity, it's likehe's like another level, yeah,
he has the ability to sell youLike he.
This is what I, in my mind, Iequate it to Whoever came up.

(37:10):
We're all old enough toremember this.
Do you remember when you couldbuy a star?
Oh my God, I bought a star.
Oh yeah, what a fucking scam,right?
You're literally getting apiece of paper that says you
bought this star and you'repaying like 99 bucks.
That guy fucking laughed allthe way to the goddamn bank and
I'm still pissed that I didn'tthink about it first Right.

Jeff (37:29):
That's true.

Gina (37:30):
So he, the WeWork guy, what's his name?
Again, I forgot.

Jeff (37:34):
Adam Newman, I think.

Gina (37:35):
Adam Newman right, Okay.

Jeff (37:36):
Yeah.

Gina (37:38):
He is the living breathing , buying a star certificate.
He's selling them nothing.
He's cause, literally it wasn'tSelling community, community
Right, but really, when it camedown to it, it was just like
shitty offices in an open worksetting.

Jeff (37:55):
Yep.

Gina (37:56):
It wasn't a tech app.
It wasn't an app of any kind.
He was literally just sellingrental office spaces.

Jeff (38:03):
Yes, right.

Gina (38:05):
Which is like let me give you a ton of money so I could be
part of this, which alsoreminds me of Billy McFarland
when he came out with that cardthat remember it was like the X
card and there was like the Xtownhouse.
The X card card yep Right.
Whatever it was called, and Iremember when it first came out,
one of my potential clients waslike well, we have an X card

(38:25):
and maybe you want to meet atthe X townhouse.
And for some reason I was likethis just is gross.
And I was like I'm sorry, I'mtraveling, even though I wasn't.
I was like I'm not going to beable to meet there or ever,
period.

Nicola (38:38):
And like this is like an MLM bank card.
Yeah, it kind of.

Gina (38:42):
I mean and I think he misappropriated all the funds
Like it was a whole disaster.
But again, these are people whohave the ability to like, charm
you through words.
Yeah.
And become like larger thanlife characters, but they're
selling you nothing, yeah.

Jeff (39:02):
Well, they're selling you the star.
Right, but think about whatthey're doing.
They are.
They identify where you feelinsecure.
Right, fire festival, you don't.
You don't want to have FOMO,you want to be at this party.
If you're not at this party,you're irrelevant.
Right, we work.
You got to get joined thistrain before, or just you're

(39:24):
again not going to be relevant.

Gina (39:26):
You're a loser.

Jeff (39:27):
You're going to be a loser .

Gina (39:28):
You can't come to the we work events on the weekend,
which literally sounded Godawful.

Jeff (39:34):
Right and he even started a wee school at one point.
Oh, I know he had bought intoso much.
But but the and this mightsound a little controversial I
don't just blame that, I in manyways blame also everyone that
promotes that, everyone thatsupports them.
So great example Wolf of WallStreet, guy right goes to jail

(39:59):
for ripping people off.
They make a movie about him.
He now is on the MSNBC and CNBCon a regular basis Like they
call him how not to get conned.

Gina (40:11):
The original.

Jeff (40:12):
He's telling people how to how to invest money and you're
like dude.
This dude ripped off hundredsof millions of people.
Why are we listening to him?

Nicola (40:22):
And just that it's like you.
You're being rewarded.
Yes.
For being naughty Shit, yes, so.
So where is the social justicehere?
So does that mean that I can goand be fraudulent fraudster and
I'm going to go to prison forlike two minutes and be like,

(40:44):
yeah, hello, here is myinvestment strategy.

Jeff (40:50):
They go.
They go to jail for a shorterperiod of time than someone that
robs a liquor store.
Oh, OK.

Nicola (40:58):
Especially if they're a person of color.
A minimal amount of marijuana.

Jeff (41:02):
Right, so so so you know this.
This might sound weird orslightly controversial, but like
why do you think there's somuch crime happening around at
least the US right now Isbecause everyone that you watch
on TV is breaking the law, froma former president to the

(41:23):
Supreme Court, to all thesepeople in corporate, and they're
getting away with it.
So then why won't I break intoa car and just steal stuff?
Everyone else is getting theirsright.
Like the moral compass is soskewed right now.

Nicola (41:39):
You know, when you take a compass to like a location and
there's just like magnets orwhatever in the mountain and the
compass goes.

Gina (41:47):
It's like what you're saying, because everyone in our
society is like being rewardedfor doing criminal bad.

Jeff (41:54):
Yeah, yeah.
And so for and, and and onlysome of these are being policed
right.

Gina (42:02):
Right.

Jeff (42:02):
Some people are being policed and others are allowed
to do whatever they want.
And I think you know, and I'vetalked about this before, but
like the origins of police, inthe US at least, comes from
slavery, it's, it comes fromslave patrols, the whole point.
That's why loitering is a crime, because when you know slaves

(42:24):
would be walking around orwalking outside of their,
outside of their plantation,slave patrols would round them
up and send them back to theirslave plantation.
So to this day, the police, orat least many of that, many of
it, is to police a certain partof society, right, while other
people are allowed to breakwhatever laws they want to break

(42:46):
and no one cares Like everyone.
Yeah, exactly.
So you know, you know when you,when you look at certain
professions like police, like Ithink this also happens with
firefighters a little bit Pilots, you know there's certain
professions where toxicmasculinity thrives even more,

(43:08):
because it's a lot of it, it'sabout power, it's a lot of it of
exerting a certain level ofpower, and that it's tough man,
it's tough to.

Nicola (43:18):
So, circling back to what you said earlier, like
you're just seeing, ok, we'reseeing it, you're seeing it,
we're just seeing a whole bunchof people that are just hating
their fucking jobs.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
Right, We've got people left, right and like I
just fucking hate my life.

Nicola (43:31):
Do you think and this is a question for both of you,
because I'm curious to know,because, like, as we're talking,
it's kind of making my you knowbrain juice moderately work,
because, yeah, I got it.
So we have these environmentswhere we have toxic masculinity
we have.
We know we have a very strongpatriarchal system.

(43:54):
We're seeing some changes insome countries.
Yeah.
But overall it's male pale,stale up at the top.
Yeah.
Then you have the added likelayers of we've got, you know,
climate crisis.
Yeah, we've just come out theother end of COVID crisis.
Now we're sliding like a trainwreck into like this inflation,

(44:19):
cost of living drama.
You know just unobtainableexpenses that you know are just
ridiculous.
Do you think that this wholecompounding should show is
really what is driving this?
I actually just don't have themain capacity to work Like.
This is awful.

(44:40):
Yeah, jeff answers.

Gina (44:43):
I just want to say we all know that everything that's
going on right now, likeespecially in America, I could
really only speak for America.
Everyone's mental health inAmerica is in the trash.
Yes, it's in the trash.
Yes, I think it was previouslyin the trash, but I think the
pandemic, yes, reallyhighlighted it, because you
couldn't like, you couldn't getaway from yourself, because you

(45:04):
were stuck in home.
So it's like, everywhere you gothere, you are Right.
So it's like now you're reallyfeeling like, oh my God, like I
have racing thought.
Whatever you're depressed,whatever the case is Like I
think I think when, when I'mdepressed and I do take
medication for depression, whichI've spoken about I become non
functioning and I the last thingI want to do is work.

Jeff (45:26):
I don't even want to get out of bed.

Gina (45:27):
I don't even want to open my eyes.

Jeff (45:29):
Yeah, I want to work, yeah .

Gina (45:31):
You think it could potentially be.
First of all, our whole worldis like basically falling apart,
but also depression.
Like is the American workforcejust like very depressed, and I
think yeah, oh, yeah, yeah.

Jeff (45:43):
So there were a lot of epiphanies that that Americans
found out about the workplaceduring the pandemic.
They really they knew thattheir companies didn't care
about them, but they didn'trealize to the extent.
And when their companies weretrying to force them back into
work and you saw places likeTyson food where they forced

(46:05):
their staff back into factoriesand then people died, and you
were like and then you had ElonMusk being like yeah, tesla, you
have to show up to, you knowthe, the car lines and whatever,
whatever things like that, andmore people were put at risk.
Then all of a sudden, you werelike oh, not only do you not
care about me, but you'rewilling to sacrifice my life so

(46:28):
that you can make just a littlebit more profit.
And I think that just putpeople to the edge.
That's why the greatresignation happened the way it
happened and and why Gen Z droveit right.
But what is interesting is, youknow, I find toxicity and toxic
masculinity thrives in silence.

(46:49):
That's what they want.
They want everyone to bedivided.
They want everyone, they want,you know, you to to feel as if
everyone else is really bad,when this might sound weird, but
this is a great.
This is the perfect opportunityBecause the patriarchy seems so

(47:11):
fragile right now.
It's the fact that a movie likeBarbie can threaten the
patriarchy.
It's a movie for good.
It's only two hours.
People Like it's not that scaryand people are freaking out
about it is awesome, right, thefact that you have men acting

(47:31):
like children, like havingtemper tantrums I just saw I'm
going to make a video about thisof like this pastor literally
taking a bat, taping a Bible toit and smashing a Barbie house,
just to show that that you knowthey're fighting.
They're fighting woke, ism orwhatever term they want to use.

(47:52):
Like this is.
This is the opportunity, inmany ways, we've been looking
for, because, like it's had toget this bad for us to realize
what's not working.
Because in order for us to, forexample, heal the planet, we
need to embrace much morehealthy femininity.
We need to have a balance thatcurrently is not existing.

(48:13):
Right, where we're bothmasculine and feminine can exist
in in one, in in in our leaders.

Gina (48:20):
Right, I talk a lot about just under the wolves.

Jeff (48:23):
Right, I talk a lot about Jacinda Ardern, the former New
Zealand Prime Minister.
What a queen.
Healthy, masculine.
Close the borders, setboundaries, did all these really
things from a healthy masculinestandpoint, but also healthy,
feminine, compassionate,empathetic.
Made sure people had money,made sure they had UBI, made

(48:44):
sure they didn't have to go tothe office.
What happened?
Lowest COVID rates.
Lowest COVID death rates in theworld.
This is what can happen.
However we celebrate leaderslike that.

Nicola (48:57):
Now I know there are other issues with her, but then
what happened was the.
Because we love a bit oftoxicity, don't we?
She's doing all of these thingsthat are keeping us as
unbelievably safe.
Yeah.
And all they're commenting onis what she's wearing.
She had the highest rate ofbullying online than any other

(49:18):
Prime Minister had ever hadPeople just you know attacking
her on a daily basis based onher looks what she said, what
she's.

Jeff (49:29):
you know, you do it, so the more we call, the more we
call out on this behavior andtalk about how it's so
antiquated and in the past, andthe more we push back on
patriarchy and toxic masculineleaders, the more it's it's
going to get bad, it's going toget worse before it gets better.
But what is happening is great,right, because, like you, first

(49:55):
have to identify that you havean illness and that you're
unhealthy in order to addressthis right.
So it is a really bad for a timefor America, and a lot of
America is depressed and alsogreat because now we have an
opportunity to go to therapy ifwe want to.
We can also just spiral downand we'll see what we end up

(50:15):
choosing to do.
But I love the fact that a lotof women are challenging men to
step up, you know, in ways thatthey haven't in the past and
that they won't tolerate, orthey just won't marry men or be
with men anymore, if they'rejust going to continue to do the
crappy things that they didbefore.
You know, there's a lot ofstudies that find that women

(50:36):
actually live a longer life whenthey're not with a guy.
I only want to bring a partnerin if it's going to improve my
life, so I love that women arepushing to higher standards.
Now, having said that, what aresome men doing?
We're, we're back lashing right.
We're, we're getting moreaggressive.

(50:58):
What are who's?
Who's represents a majority ofshootings, men, right, because,
like, we don't know how tohandle our loneliness.
And at this time, there are allthese articles that are like,
well, men are lonely, so whatshould we do about it?
It's like, well, womenshouldn't compromise to adapt to
the fact that men are lonely.
It's the fact that, like, wehave to raise our standards.

Gina (51:22):
Level up.
Yeah, level up.

Jeff (51:25):
Or just be like or expand what it means to be a man, and
we're we're currently strugglingwith that identity crisis right
now.
I didn't.
This is why I love Barbie somuch.
There is that there's like Idon't know soliloquy or rant by
American for air or what it'slike to be a woman.

Gina (51:43):
I read that I had never.

Jeff (51:44):
I had never known any of that as a man.
I didn't know what that's like.
I didn't know what it's like toalways feel like you have to be
perfect but nothing's evergreat enough, right?

Gina (51:57):
You know like that is exhausting, like well, I think
that's why most women have suchshitty self-esteem, because
we're always yeah aiming forperfection.
But then we're like, oh, we'realso like.
Then we talk negatively toourselves.

Jeff (52:12):
Right, we can't be too much or too little.

Gina (52:15):
We can't be too revealing or too conservative, like you.
Have to strike the perfectbalance, and it's impossible
because everyone's perfect issubject is subjective.

Jeff (52:24):
Right and in addition to that, just like the level of
safety right, Like I can walkaround at night as a six foot
brown guy in Oakland, but mostwomen I would not recommend you
walk around after a certainperiod of time.
Like, like listening to my I goto.
I stay at a lot of hotels whenI'm speaking.
Listening to my friends thatare women speakers.

(52:46):
The amount of extra things theyhave to do to make sure that
they're safe going to a hotel isobscene.
Like in relation to what I haveto do right From.
Like making sure someonedoesn't follow them in the
elevator, making sure they don'tknow the room number.
Like making sure the doorslocked.
They even have an extra lockthat they bring to block the

(53:08):
door.
Like all these extra things,and I'm like man, it is so much
more exhausting to be a woman.
And meanwhile, anytime a manhas any level of of like
challenge, we start to freak outbecause we're like, oh my gosh,
it's so horrible out here.
Like it's not easy for menanymore.
And you're like, what are youtalking about, dude?

(53:30):
Like what are you talking?

Gina (53:31):
Yeah, what do men say?
That's not easy.
I'm, I'm, I'm interested tohear.
What do you think is funny.

Jeff (53:35):
Well, when?
Well, well, right now, whereyou're like?
Oh well, women, you know, womenhave so many high standards.
Now, oh my gosh, you know,they're, they're, you know.

Gina (53:46):
Oh, you mean, we just want normal human decency?
Yeah, such a fucking highstandard.

Jeff (53:51):
Or we talked about this before right, when the Me Too
movement came and they were like, whoa, now I can't say anything
to women.
And you were like what were yousaying to women?
Like what the fuck were yousaying?
What can you not have a normalconversation without saying?
A sexual innuendo in the middleof it.
Like are you that bad?

(54:11):
Like do you talk to that fewwomen?
You know?

Nicola (54:16):
how are you talking to your mother?

Jeff (54:18):
Exactly.
Yeah, what Like I don't get it,do you have?
I don't get it Well, and youknow not to go so far into this
because I don't want to get toopersonal, but like I've seen
where I've noticed men are mostof vindictive towards women and

(54:39):
like mentally abusive towardswomen and sometimes physically
abusive towards women is whenthey themselves have not had a
good relationship with their momand they're getting back at
women or getting back at theirmom through that woman and
that's really sad, but like andit's a lot of trauma.

(55:00):
Again, it's a lot of traumathat they're not willing to
address and it's not popular fora lot of men to go to therapy,
so they don't address it.
So instead they use this aslike an opportunity to treat
women in a piss-poor way andit's really sad.

Gina (55:16):
How do we change the narrative for men Is it during
curities before.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
So what do you mean?
Change the narrative.
What do you mean by changingthe narrative?

Jeff (55:23):
The narrative of how we're raising our sons to not yeah, I
mean the way we do it is weshow more vulnerable affection
towards boys.
Boys at a younger age.
Like we show them how tocommunicate their emotions

(55:43):
through words.
Right, we show them, not justtell them.
Right, because I think there'sa lot of like telling, like this
is how, what you should do, butmen should be exhibiting a
certain level of healthymasculinity towards each other.
You know, a group that gives mea lot of hope is stay at home
dads.
I've there are some conferences.

(56:06):
I used to know people thatwould go to this conference
called dad 2.0.
There's another conferencecalled at home dads, and it's a
lot of dads that are either stayat home dads or dads that spend
a lot of time with their kids,and there's a lot of healthy
masculinity and healthyfemininity.
Right, so they do the laundry,they change the diapers.

Gina (56:28):
Because they have to.

Jeff (56:29):
They cook, they do all the things.
So it's not like women's workand men's work anymore, right,
like we are able to embrace amore complex way of showing up.
So I think, when we're willingto embrace more of the gender
spectrum, of like I have healthyfeminine traits and I have
healthy masculine traits and I'mgonna show my kids how to do

(56:52):
that that is where I think therecan be healing.
But as long as we, as long aswe polarized right, as long as
we're like women first men, andthere are this and this is that
and we're not willing to likeembrace the complexity of it,
that both men are aggressive andalso they're very lonely, how

(57:13):
do we?
Let's have conversations aroundthat, right, you know, the more
we're able to have thoseconversations and sit in the
both, and that's when thehealing is gonna start to happen
.
And that's what.
That's the stuff I advocate.

Gina (57:27):
So what was like?
You seem like.
You seem like you'd be a greatboyfriend or husband to a woman
if that's what you want to do.
But how?
Why did you become such aproponent of you know, like
doing this?
I mean, I know you had someincidences in your work, but

(57:47):
like was there-.

Jeff (57:48):
Well, I'll try to answer it.
I know where it comes.
Do you know what I'm getting at?
Yeah.
So again, right From my originstory, I'm a play person.
I love to play, Like that is myjam.
And the reason why I love toplay is play creates harmony.
Play builds relationships withpeople.

(58:11):
People see each other's innerchild that way.
That's where I think a lot ofhealing comes from, through play
.
I mean, heck, a war was startedfor a night Christmas Eve in
the trenches because of play,right?
So I see the power of play.
Play is very, is very feminine,it's collaborative, it's
intuitive, it's all these things.

(58:32):
So because I've embraced play,I have a lot of feminine traits
that balance out the masculinetraits and because of that I'm
like, oh, when we play more, weget along more, and I just want
people to get along more, Like Ijust want a workplace that not
suck.
So when I go into a workplaceand I'm like, why are y'all

(58:53):
making it harder than you haveto?
Why do you have Chad in chargeof everybody, when Chad is
currently under investigationfor sexual harassment?
Five people have quit becauseof this guy.
And also, everyone is lessproductive every time he's at a
meeting because he takes up 80%of the meeting.
If we address Chad and not justhim, like let's not just get

(59:15):
rid of him, like maybe thestrategies to get rid of him,
but it's like, but we setboundaries, meaning like we
don't support that behavior.
Everyone doesn't like.
Everyone likes work a littlebit better.
Like why don't we do that?
We're like at work 2,000 to2,500 hours a year.
Why are we putting ourselvesthrough all this pain and

(59:36):
suffering so like?
That's the vibe that I have.
I'm just like.
I see people miserable at workall the time and I'm like I say
it all the time work sucks, butit doesn't have to.
So why are we letting it suckso much?
Because we're allowing toxicityand toxic masculinity to thrive
.
That's why.

Gina (59:54):
So can you give us an example of maybe an exercise you
would have like a Chad team ora team run by Chad, like in your
example that you just gave us?
Like what would you have themdo with?
Play, like to kind of work, Idon't know, to work out the
situation, or An example, andthe way I use play is like it's
experimental, right.

Jeff (01:00:14):
So it's like play is just all about testing stuff out.
So let's say you have a Chadthat takes up a majority of your
meetings, like 80% of themeeting.
They just talk all the time.
So then what the play would befor you to talk to everyone else
in the meeting and be likelisten every time Chad cuts you
off, every time Chad cuts offGina or Nicola, like be like, oh

(01:00:38):
, excuse me, chad, gina was justabout to share something, and
also Gina's like the projectlead on this, so she probably
should have.
She has a lot to say about this, so let's make sure we hear
from her right?
The more we start sendingboundaries around Chad, the more
it becomes less toxic foreverybody else and more toxic

(01:01:01):
for him.
And then he has to decide do Ichange my behavior because I
still want influence here, orcan I not act like a
three-year-old child having atemper tantrum?
So I'm gonna leave and then I'mgonna leave the organization?
So do that over three to sixmonths where you have strategies
around how you're gonna startto take back over the meeting.

(01:01:22):
That's one way.
Another way is if Chad is theone that's running your meetings
right and he's talking thewhole time.
Confront that person directlyand be like what's the point of
our meetings?
Is the point of our meetingsfor us to like, brainstorm and
get a lot of ideas?
If it is, right, now that's nothappening because you're

(01:01:42):
talking a lot?
Is that your goal?
Like, what's your goal right?
What's your intent?
Like, come from a place ofobjectivity but challenge the
notion of like what is actuallyhappening.
What we usually do is we justdon't say anything and we're
just like well, that's just theculture.
Everyone loves Chad.
That's not the case.
There's a lot of allies thatjust like aren't able to speak

(01:02:05):
up because they don't see otherpeople challenging power, and
really what we need to do ischallenge toxic power more.

Gina (01:02:11):
Right.
So how would you do thatthrough play, though?
I think that was my question.
How would you handle a Chadsituation with what you teach
people in terms of play?

Jeff (01:02:21):
But that's so.
What I'm saying is just likethe play is in the experiment of
these different strategies.
Oh challenging.
So, like play is how am I gonnacut him off in the work play?
How am I gonna cut him off inthe meeting?
How am I gonna give more roomfor everyone else to speak?
Like, let's play with thatexperiment of us finally taking

(01:02:46):
over the meeting over the nextthree months Another play is I'm
thinking you're gonna bring outlike the battleships.

Gina (01:02:52):
And be like now you-.

Jeff (01:02:54):
We're not gonna bust out Legos and just be like okay,
everybody, let's do the thing.

Nicola (01:02:58):
It's more like, let's experiment with a lot of
different strategies.
Just side noise.
I'm going to the Lego workshop.
Which Lego workshop are youdoing?

Gina (01:03:06):
I'm going to the workshop where there's candy and maybe
some creativity play, like maybesome painting or sand art, or
like the little like you'remaking, like a little pot with
play.

Jeff (01:03:18):
Yes, it's pottery and the other play that I would also
challenge people to do is thenI'm like I'm gonna confront Chad
.
Oh, I'm a little nervous aboutit.
Okay, let's practice, likelet's, I will be tend to be Chad
and you be the other person,and let's practice over and over
again.
Let's run this scenario overand over again so that when you

(01:03:38):
actually walk into that room,you're more likely to know how
to adapt to it.
You won't get as nervous, andyou know, and you know backed
down right.
So that's what I'm talkingabout Experiment, constantly
being open to failure,constantly trying many different
things out that are pushingpower.

Gina (01:03:56):
Here I was thinking that you were like bringing balls and
shit on your like, like yourconference.
I mean I can.
I've done that too Catch theball Was I way off.
Base on that, nikola.
Did you think that too?
Yes, we, every day is a schoolday for us these days.

Nicola (01:04:10):
Oh my God, this whole week has been a fucking school
day.

Gina (01:04:12):
We've just been, we've been, our assets have been
handed to us over and over andover again.

Nicola (01:04:18):
This whole week.

Gina (01:04:18):
You know you learn from it this whole week because we're
like we learned so much thisweek.
It's been nothing.
You know what?

Nicola (01:04:25):
I you know what my biggest learning from this, I'd
say, this week was was probably,I'm going to say I'm reflecting
on myself and not understandingthe full scope of life.
I didn't realize thatneurodiversity is no longer a
spectrum.
I did not understand that and Inow understand that it is more

(01:04:49):
of a color wheel.
It's a color wheel and I getthat now and I acknowledge that
maybe I failed on that front andprogressed the negative
narrative around.

Gina (01:05:02):
We have you and I have you and I have even on our first
season of the podcast, cause wewere like, we were very quick to
be like, oh, maybe that personwas neurodivergent, and it's
like we're just using that wordlike blanket, like in a blanket
sense.
And that's not at all okay.
So we learned that and I think II think my favorite like that

(01:05:22):
was a good lesson for us tolearn that like we're being
closed minded without evenrealizing, like we didn't set
out to be that way.
But I think my favorite thingthat I learned about was data
science and natural languages.
Like I'm just blown away thatpeople do that.

Jeff (01:05:39):
That's like a job Like someone.

Gina (01:05:41):
I just like it's nuts.
People don't have weird jobs,no, but it's so cool Like I
would never be able to do it,but I it's like the coolest
thing ever.
That was my fun learningexperience for this week.

Jeff (01:05:53):
Something else that comes up when you share this is, I
think, also what we need to bechallenging is we need to be
challenging systems of power,but having empathy for people.
I think we a lot of times and Ido it myself, I did it earlier
with Elon Musk right, wedemonize people but we don't
challenge the system that putthose people up in the first

(01:06:15):
place.
And the more that we canactually challenge the system
that celebrates toxicity, theless we're gonna actually
produce toxic leaders.
And the way we do that is wehave to obviously build more
empathy for each other.
So if we can do that, thenthere's progress.

Gina (01:06:34):
I think that's the overarching thing that I've
learned the most since westarted this podcast is better,
like, the better leaders we haveare always empathetic yeah,
like Empathetic vulnerable.
Yep.
Not afraid to say that was myfault.

(01:06:56):
I messed up.

Jeff (01:06:57):
So the more we can celebrate empathetic,
compassionate leaders thatdisplay shared humanity and prop
them up, the more we canactually start to heal
workplaces.
That's all of the work that I'mjust trying to do is like can
we celebrate more of the JacindaArdern's and people like that,

(01:07:18):
rather than us continuing tocelebrate the patriarchal
Rockefellers of the past thatare not?
They're just not contributing,they're just not helping.

Gina (01:07:28):
They're not serving anyone .

Jeff (01:07:29):
And, frankly, in many ways tying it back to climate change
.
Their narcissistic ways ofbeing is what's destroying the
planet Like.
It's just not sustainablebecause they constantly want to
win and they constantly wantmore and more and more, and
that's just not healthy anymore.

Nicola (01:07:46):
So it isn't, and I think we are starting to see a shift.
Right, we're starting to seethis shift in.
Actually, that's not goodenough.
Yeah.
You know, I think, granted,it's a small shift, but you are
starting to see it in certainplaces.
You know the great resignation.
Ah, that's actually not goodenough.

Jeff (01:08:04):
Well, I don't even know if it's small, because like
strikes that are happening withriders you know, there's just
strikes that were happening withflight attendants, just strike
that happened with UPS workersand then they got huge rages.
There's just strikes that areabout to happen with all the
major car dealerships in the US.
So, like it's building, it'shappening, it's like it's coming

(01:08:27):
together.

Gina (01:08:28):
It's a brown swell.
Yeah, who do I have to join?
I'd like to join a movementthat's the movement we're going
to join.

Jeff (01:08:34):
I don't know if I have the idea Consistent bowel movements
.

Gina (01:08:37):
That's another thing between men and women.
When can men can poop anywhere.
They're like always so regular.
I'm like lucky if I poop likeonce a week.

Nicola (01:08:45):
Or I can't use the work bathroom, like there's no way,
oh my gosh, oh wow, oh my god,really Like the idea of pooping
in the paddock bathroom.
I just, oh, my god, like it'sso scared, it's like in my
throat.

Jeff (01:09:00):
Are you worried someone's?
Are you worried someone's goingto poop next to you?
For someone sitting next?
To you Like what are youworried about?

Gina (01:09:06):
You guys seem to start a band that's a woman who won't
see me poop?
What I've done, like in myhousehold, to like de-stigmatize
pooping.
I'll like I'll be, like I gottago poop, like I will announce
it Just like it's normal.
My child announced it.
Yeah.
So I will announce it and then,like if someone's in the
bathroom and I hear them, I'llstand outside the door and make

(01:09:28):
fart sound to cover theirs.

Jeff (01:09:31):
Oh my gosh.

Nicola (01:09:33):
I would never poop in your house.
My poop would just stay in mybody for the rest of eternity.

Gina (01:09:38):
No, I'm trying to help the pooper out because I'm like,
let me distract anyone else,who's?
If it's just me and the pooper,who cares?
But it was like me, the netlike, let's say, joe's pooping
and it's getting loud andthere's like Lucia and why isn't
it getting loud Like?

Nicola (01:09:51):
what sort of loud are we getting Like?

Gina (01:09:53):
why isn't it loud I don't know, Like you hear, you know
stuff happens.
I'll stand outside the doorlike make fart sounds to try to
cover it for them.

Jeff (01:10:02):
Wow.

Gina (01:10:02):
But also secretly, to kind of annoy them.

Nicola (01:10:05):
I will never poop at your house.
In summary, I will just poop inthe car.

Gina (01:10:09):
Well, if it's just you and me, you can go upstairs.

Jeff (01:10:11):
In the park, In the park For people that are not
comfortable pooping.
Y'all are very comfortabletalking about pooping.

Gina (01:10:19):
Well, no, I'm comfortable pooping.
I can poop anywhere.
The thing that I'muncomfortable about with pooping
is that I don't go enough.

Nicola (01:10:27):
I just want to be invisible during poop time, like
just make me invisible, like Idon't even want to know that
it's happening, like if I could.

Gina (01:10:35):
Ok, here's a good thing, though, like men don't care.
Men don't care.
They will like be fighting fortheir life in the bathroom and
walk out and don't give a shit.
Why can't I only?

Jeff (01:10:44):
Seriously, I mean.
I mean, do you see men at likesporting events or concerts,
like do you see how fast thatbathroom line moves and we
barely even wash our hands?
You're just like, there's likethere's like there's like 80
women trying to get in thebathroom and the men's line is
like two guys and they're justmoving.

Gina (01:11:03):
Men are like.
In a word, they're animals.
They'll just be like gross.
We're gross.
Get it out, we're super gross.

Jeff (01:11:10):
Keep it moving, Like we might swing our hand by the
water which is so gross.

Gina (01:11:16):
So my head, maybe some of my head Any man who doesn't wash
their hands after number two,you're gross.

Nicola (01:11:23):
Circle it back.
So circle, trying to circle itback.

Jeff (01:11:27):
I love that.
We went down the poop.
We went all the way down thesewer of the poop.
I think that's half the episode.
I really hope we don't deleteall of the poop.
Wait, let me.
Let me try something.
I'm going to, I'm going to, I'mgoing to add a soundbite that

(01:11:48):
you can transition back frompoop into toxicity.
Ok, ok.
So, as we've been talking aboutpoop and diarrhea, I really
feel especially America'sworkplace right now.
We're, we're a body dealingwith diarrhea and I feel like
the more we take somepep-to-biz-mo, which is

(01:12:12):
embracing some healthyfemininity and some balance, we
can finally get that out of oursystem and finally find a
certain level of healthy balanceto this body again.
So we're, we're pooping out thetoxicity.
That's really what I'm saying,but it's going to run.
We're going to go through, butwe had some spicy food, so we're

(01:12:34):
going to go.
It's going to be a little hard,it's going to go through some
times it's going to burn theanus, you know.

Nicola (01:12:40):
and then we get to the other side and we're going to
get to the other side and youwon't.

Jeff (01:12:44):
you won't know when we're going to finish.
We're going to be like, oh, Idon't know if I can get through
this, it's just like but we'llbe OK.

Nicola (01:12:51):
Exactly.

Gina (01:12:53):
Exactly.
Oh my God, I feel like this is,then.
This is.
We've actually had really greatinterviews this week.

Jeff (01:12:59):
Yeah, this is a very different reason.
Oh, I love it, I love it.

Gina (01:13:04):
All right, so Jeff where can we find you?

Nicola (01:13:08):
Yeah, we're going to get people to talk about because I
feel like everybody needs tofind you and I feel like they
all need to hang out with you atsome point, because you were
just high quality.

Jeff (01:13:18):
Oh, that's so nice.
So if people want to see myridiculous videos where I make
fun of the workplace and talkabout dismantling patriarchy
through play.
My handle is at Chef Harryplays.
So J, e, f, f, h, a, r, y, p, l, a, y, s and that's at Tick

(01:13:39):
Tock Instagram threads Probablynot Twitter anymore, because I'm
going to end that YouTubemedium.
All of all the handles,linkedin, all that, ok.
And then if you want to causemischief in the workplace and
address power dynamics so thatwork doesn't suck so much
anymore, then go to my website,rediscoveryourplaycom, and then

(01:14:02):
just simply click on the let'splay button and we can connect
and explore how we can addressall this toxicity, so you can
enjoy work Finally, instead ofhaving it suck so much.

Gina (01:14:18):
Yeah, that would be awesome.
Ok, I just followed you onInstagram and I love that in the
first video you have, you'rewearing a terrible wig.
Oh, I have so many wigs.

Jeff (01:14:30):
I have so many toxic leader wigs.
I have like four or five wigsWait.

Nicola (01:14:35):
I'm coming for this too.
I'm coming.
Hold on, I need to see the wigs.

Gina (01:14:38):
I'm not going to see the wigs no the one in the beginning
of this your wig is God awfuland I'm here for it.

Jeff (01:14:45):
Yeah, exactly.
Oh, they're the worst, they'reamazing.

Gina (01:14:48):
Yeah, but it's like you walk into a store and you're
like give me your worst wig.

Jeff (01:14:54):
Yeah, that's exactly what I did, oh my God.
I love this yeah, you see theblonde one.
I have five wigs back here,even a pink wig like a troll wig
that I make videos with.
Yeah.

Nicola (01:15:07):
I have to say that that you're I'm like down your
Instagram.
I have to say that yourInstagram is like the funnest
thing I think I've been.

Jeff (01:15:14):
Oh, that's awesome.

Nicola (01:15:15):
Yeah, but very serious on there recently, whoever is
listening to this episode if youare not subscribing to this
channel this has been so muchfun.

Gina (01:15:24):
Yes, sorry, we've gone way over time and I'm sure you're
very busy, but we got distractedby your Instagram.

Jeff (01:15:30):
I'll talk to you later.
Thank you so much.

Nicola (01:15:32):
Bye.
Thanks, jeff, have a good one.