S2E9: Neurodivergence and autism at Work: Unpacking the Challenges and Triumphs

In this enlightening episode, we meet Shea, a Boston resident navigating the corporate world while embracing their autism and neurodivergence. The conversation dives into the intricacies of their journey in a traditional nine-to-five job, tackling subjects such as decoding sarcasm, fostering respectful communication, and addressing workplace biases. It sheds light on the often overlooked potential of neurodivergent individuals, particularly within the engineering industry, challenging stereotypes and misconceptions. The episode serves as a call to action, advocating for understanding and accommodation. 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheabelsky/

Welcome to Season 2, where we embark on authentic and unfiltered conversations about life, relationships, society, and more. Our opinions are solely our own and don't represent professional advice. It's just our perspective, so form your conclusions. Heads up, this podcast may contain adult content and explicit language. Let's dive in!
 
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Episode Transcript

Nicola (00:00):
Okay, let's try to get.
Shay, would you like to tell uswho you are and where you're
from?
Absolutely.

Shea Belsky (00:06):
Thanks so much for having me.
I'm super excited to talk aboutneurodiversity in the workplace
, what it means to be autisticin a working environment, and
how much of a fun time, how muchof an interesting time and how
much of a challenging time it isbeing neurodivergent and more
broadly disabled in atraditional nine to five
corporate job.

(00:27):
I currently live outside ofBoston Massachusetts in the
United States.
I live with my fiance and twocats.
The cat might come up and sayhi in the microphone at any
point, so be prepared to hearhim meow at some point.

Nicola (00:40):
I am so excited about this episode.
I think this is gonna be areally, really interesting
episode because I think this iskind of the first time that
we're deep diving into thistopic, and I think-.

Gina (00:51):
With someone who identifies as neurodivergent.
We've had people tell theirstories and say I think my
coworker might have beenneurodivergent because they
acted like X, y and Z, and therewere a few.
There was a few incidents wherewe were like mm, doesn't sound
like that to us, like you'reprobably the problem.
But then there was a couplethat I think Nicola and I were

(01:13):
like yeah, something sounds alittle off there.
I wonder what it was Like.
We're not doctors, obviouslywe're not handing out diagnoses,
but so I think it's gonna bereally interesting to hear from
an actual person.

Nicola (01:26):
An actual person.

Shea Belsky (01:27):
A real human.

Gina (01:29):
Are you actually a person or are you-?

Shea Belsky (01:31):
I hope I'm a real person, unless you're dressed in
a flesh suit.
I have the burn marks and thecuts and the scabbed over
pimples and scribes to prove thefact that I'm human.

Gina (01:41):
All right, we'll give it to you.
You're an actual person.

Shea Belsky (01:45):
Thank you for the accomplishment.
The achievement, I'll put it onmy way board.

Nicola (01:50):
Put it on your LinkedIn profile.
I'm an actual person.

Shea Belsky (01:53):
An actual, real human being, certified 2023.
Organic, a little more of aclassic.

Nicola (02:01):
I'm curious to know, like as we kind of head into
this podcast, because obviouslyI'm hoping that you're gonna
share a little bit of yourneurodiversity, and you've
mentioned that you're autisticas well I'm curious to know, and
maybe you can elaborate on thisa little bit.
For me, sarcasm is our secondlanguage, gina and I.

Shea Belsky (02:22):
How are you with?

Nicola (02:23):
sarcasm 50-50.

Shea Belsky (02:27):
If it's really obvious, I'll pick up on it.
If it's subtle, it might flyover my head, okay.
So I would say, give it a try.

Gina (02:35):
I feel like I'm right there with you with the subtlety
.
Sometimes I'm like I'll thinkabout it after and I'll be like
wait, is that a joke or not?
Like I can't tell.

Shea Belsky (02:43):
I won't be hurt if something comes up as our
casting ticket seriously, andthen I'm embarrassed, like it
just happens to me some oftenwhere it doesn't bother me at
this point.
So, like we'll give it a whirland if it comes up in a
conversation then we'll justhave fun with it and we'll just
fly up and see them in our pants.
I'm not worried.

Nicola (02:58):
All right cool, I'm used to it, so do you want to?

Gina (03:02):
Go ahead.

Nicola (03:02):
Nicole, do you want to tell us a little bit about your
neurodiversity and your kind of?
Because I know autism is a biton a scale, so do you want to
explain some of yours to us?

Shea Belsky (03:12):
Yeah, so I am diagnosed with autism.
A long time ago, the officialdiagnosis was Asperger's.
As of right now, the diagnosisof Asperger's isn't given out
anymore.
It's just referred to as autismspectrum disorder.
So if somebody says that theyare autistic or they have
Asperger's, they can refer tothe same thing.
But not all people who areautistic have Asperger's.

(03:35):
Like, if you have Asperger's,the current medical definition
is autistic, but you beingautistic is not guaranteed that
you were at one point diagnosedwith Asperger's.
To make things simpler, I justsay I'm autistic.
There's nothing wrong withpeople using that language if
they choose to do so, but peoplereally have different
preferences for how they chooseto describe it.
So, honestly, it's just amatter of asking the person how

(03:58):
they refer to themselves.
I say I'm autistic, but ifsomeone wants to say that they
have Asperger's, there's nothingwrong with them doing that.
I'm not going to give someone ahard time over it.

Gina (04:07):
Yeah, so, just so we get a full, accurate background, can
you tell us how and you don'thave to if you don't want to but
can you tell us how thediagnosis came about a long time
ago?

Shea Belsky (04:19):
Many moons ago, when you still were an actual
person.
Well, it was many moons ago,but I think that's what makes it
, I would say honestly, moreunique in that sense, most of
the people who I know are eitherself-diagnosed or receive a
diagnosis into their later yearsif they were an adult or more
like a teenager.
I had a diagnosis from a veryearly point in my life.

(04:39):
I was about two or three yearsold.
My grandma on my mom's side andmy aunt on my mom's side both
worked in the school system andthey were around me often enough
to say to my mom hey, shayisn't developing the way that
he's supposed to at his age.
We recommend getting himchecked out by a professional.
And then they did.
And then I got a diagnosis withAsperger's at the time, autism,

(04:59):
about two or three years old,and for most people that's not
how it goes.
Most people struggle for a lotof their life and then they
stumble upon it, but I recognizevery much the privilege that I
have to have had a diagnosisfrom such an early point.
It's honestly a lot rarer tohave a diagnosis at that point.
From my perspective, mostpeople don't have that.

Gina (05:23):
And correct me if I'm wrong.
Sometimes the symptoms, orwhatever it is we wanna call the
set of behaviors or whatever itis, are subtle and I feel like
in some cases it's subtle andyou can't there might not, you
can explain it away, like,especially as a parent, whereas
you know, like your-.

Nicola (05:44):
Oh, my child is just particular.
Or oh, my child is just a bitfussy with food.

Shea Belsky (05:50):
It depends a lot on , honestly, circumstance like
nature or nurture.
To be totally transparent, fora lot of parents they may not be
aware of what is normal or not.
I am very fortunate that on mymom's side of the family there
were two different people whoboth independently said that
there was something not quite upto where it's supposed to be.

(06:11):
But a lot of folks who I knowthat isn't the case, where the
parents either didn't know whatnormal was supposed to be or,
which is also common, they choseto reject what they were seeing
.
They didn't want to admit thathalf of the child maybe had
disability or had somethingwrong with them.
And so the first question theway that autism presents
definitely varies from person toperson.

(06:31):
It varies a lot by gender, byrace, by sexuality, like a lot
of the research out there aboutautism and their diversity is,
to be honest, mostly about whitemen like myself, and autism in
women is grossly underdiagnosed.
It doesn't mean that women haveautism less often.
It means that the science isnot, I would say, where it's
supposed to be when it comes toautism, and that is trending in

(06:55):
our positive direction, where itis starting to equalize out.
It's not perfect, but we arestarting to see more incidences
of women getting diagnosed.
It's not because autism isgrowing like a COVID variant
would.
It's because the science isgetting better and the social
situations and scenariossurrounding women getting a

(07:16):
diagnosis in the first place aregetting better.
And that also applies to raceas well.
We're seeing more, morenon-white people get diagnoses
because the science and thesocial scenario around it is
getting a lot better, aroundthat even being a possibility.

Gina (07:30):
That's interesting, yeah, okay, so are you gonna tell us?
So I know that you're right now.
You're basically anentrepreneur, right, so you're
working on something that's kindof linked with your disability,
but and I'm sure we're gonnaget to that as you tell your
story but when did you reallyfeel like was there a work

(07:56):
situation where you really feltlike was not handled properly in
terms of your disability, oryou weren't given the
opportunity to speak freely oranything like that?
I think there was one, rightFrom whatever.

Shea Belsky (08:09):
I remember yeah.
So and in my time going fordifferent internships and
full-time jobs and stuff, mylast internship coming out of
university, it was a very highstress, high velocity, high
everything environment I'm notgonna name names, but it was a
very fast-paced tech companyPick any of the ones that are

(08:31):
out there and I'm sure you canguess and in that kind of
environment I was basically likejust barely getting by in terms
of what was expected of me, howmuch I was expected to know off
the top of my head and how hardI was to expect it to work.
A lot of what was going on wasjust me not always being able to
read between the lines or getinto really subtle details about

(08:52):
things or ask for help.
I was kind of rabbit-holingmyself down different paths of
work and I wasn't in anenvironment where I felt that I
had the support that I needed tosort of like pull me out of
that rabbit hole and give me areality check in a way that I
felt was respectful, because theway that the feedback sometimes
came across was moreadmonishing not in fantasizing

(09:15):
but more disrespectful.
And this was in an environmentwhere I didn't disclose my
neurodiversity until reallyclose to the end of it and in
that environment I'd wished thatI'd had the support to disclose
it earlier.
And number two, that I feltthat as though it could have
there was more training orawareness for the manager is not

(09:35):
me having to mention it in thefirst place, and I think that
was a difficult situation for mewhich really revolutionized and
changed how I thought aboutthat kind of neurodiversity
going forward for every employerafter that, so do you think
that if you had disclosed thatlike right from the beginning,
that experience would have gonedifferently, or do you think it

(09:57):
would have kind of still had thesimilar experience that you
actually had?
I think the mental experiencefor me would have been night and
day in terms of what I workedon.
I would expect that would havestayed the same, but I do
believe that, had I been moretransparent about my
neurodiversity going forward, orif there have been more
conversations about things thatI could share in a way that was

(10:19):
respectful with my manager, Ifelt that a lot of things could
have been different in terms ofhow conversations were had about
me, surrounding me and how Icould have used that in the
workplace, cause it was aninternship, I wasn't expected to
know everything and be the mostbrilliant person in the room.
I was close to the bottom of theladder, bottom of the food

(10:40):
pyramid.
So, of all that being said, Ithink it could have gone a lot
differently and more supportivein that department.
At the same time, though, I wasstill at a point in my own
journey but neurodiversity wherehow much of this am I expected
to know?
How much, how aware of it do Ineed to be to get by?
And in that moment I realized Ikind of have to stick up for

(11:00):
myself because it doesn't looklike anybody else is going to,
and that really sort of changedhow I thought about it going
forward.

Gina (11:07):
Okay, that's interesting.
So so I think the question is,when do you know when to
disclose?
What are the like, the perfectcircumstances where you're, like
, I feel comfortable to disclosethis is, you know, in a
workplace or even in theinterview process?
I mean, is that something youshould bring up during your
interview process, like, howdoes that work?

Shea Belsky (11:29):
So, coming out of that internship experience, that
really changed when and where Idid it.
Going forward, to answer yourquestion, my opinion now and I
believe this would be reallytrue is that you should disclose
pretty early on in theinterview process.
We're sort of a lot of benefits.
My belief is that by disclosingdisability, whether it's
invisible is this a case for meor not?

(11:50):
Invisible, visible it can do oneof three things for you, the
first being that if the companyis an inclusive because of the
culture, then it'll make thingsreally easy and supportive and
equitable for you and they willwant to support you in a way
that respects you and does notostracize or discriminate
against you.
Second thing that can happen isthat nothing happens.
You know they don't do anythingfor or against you, but at

(12:12):
least that there's context thereand they can work with the
method or ability and somecompanies are better than the
numbers.
And the last thing that couldhappen is the worst thing in air
quotes is that they areableists, don't want to hire you
and they just cut you loose.
But at that point you dodgedthe bullet, because why work for
an ableist company in the firstplace?

Gina (12:28):
Yeah, I was gonna like watch your truck car there.

Shea Belsky (12:31):
Yeah, like I think in that instance, if you say in
the interview and then all ofyour interviewers after that are
ableists or make assumptions ordon't know how to speak of you
in a way that's respectful, youcan just stop the interview
right there and walk away anddon't feel like you lost
anything over the time.

Gina (12:48):
Right.
So was there a situation inwhich, besides your internship,
didn't you say you kind of didsome experiment, though, like in
your, when we chattedoriginally?
Like you said you, you werelooking right?
Can you tell us somewhere aboutthat?

Shea Belsky (13:02):
So coming out of university with the Cornell
coming out of Cornell, I toldyou above average, smart.

Gina (13:08):
Wait, you watched the Office.

Shea Belsky (13:11):
Did you ever watch the Office?
I watched it a few seasons.
Yes, Andy, so Andy, yes, funfact, he actually did end up
speaking at commencement oneyear at Cornell.

Gina (13:23):
Did he.
That's amazing.
It was really funny.
He was really chill about it.

Shea Belsky (13:27):
He's like thanks for letting me talk about your
school.
He was really cool about it.

Gina (13:30):
Yeah, I love that for everyone involved because he was
he was such a pain in the assabout it on.
Yeah, he was such a pain in theass about it on the show that
like it's so funny that he'sprobably not like that in real
life.
But it's like I don't know if Icould ever look at him in any
other way other than being Andyfrom the Office, you know.

Nicola (13:49):
He was really chill.

Gina (13:51):
Yeah, I'm sure he is I mean to play someone like that.
You probably have to be, anyway.
Okay, so you did some kind ofexperiment, right?

Shea Belsky (13:59):
So, coming out of Cornell, a planet doesn't have
to write and for most of most ofthe time it's pretty easy, like
fill out your address 20,000times in the same application.
I don't remember you a bulletin your resume, fill it out all
again.
Yada, yada, yada.
And one of the questions thatgets asked is do you have a
disability?
And there's three answers yes,no or I choose not to answer,

(14:19):
which is ambivalent, basically,and so I applied to maybe 100,
200 jobs coming out of Cornell,just online applications and I
took the job that didn't reallycare a whole lot about, the
companies are kind of like notjumping up and down about, but I
wouldn't be mad or happy to geta rejection for and just did an

(14:41):
experiment with that checkbox.
So for half of this was about asize sample has about 100 of
companies, and for half of themI said yes, I have that ability,
and for the other half I saidno or I don't answer, and on
average, when I said yes to that, I got automatic rejection more
often than if I said no or Idon't answer, which is

(15:03):
frustrating In this sense that,again, this is purely a anecdote
, it's a perspective.
I'm not a forintative.
I can't like speak to whetheror not that's legal or not.
I think my understanding of mynext question is it's just meant
for, like reporting purposes.
It is not meant to bias you inthe interview process, but from
my personal perspective I don'tbelieve that to be true.

(15:23):
Could be coincidence, could bea pattern.
I'm just here to say that I sawit as a pattern of a sample
size of 100.

Gina (15:29):
That you witnessed that, yeah, and then even further on
in you go, I was gonna say andlike, for every time you didn't,
you got a rejection or youdidn't hear back from the people
you tracked, like how do youknow if it was specifically

(15:50):
because of that Like?
And especially now in this dayand age, you know they usually
have like somebody like aprogram.
They run resumes through aprogram and if you don't have
like a certain amount of thekeywords that are looking for,
it's automatically rejected.
It's like before anyone, anyonesees anything else.
So there's an argument to saythat it wasn't because of that

(16:11):
and maybe your resume justdidn't hit on those keywords.
But you don't feel that way,right?

Shea Belsky (16:17):
But the sample size of 50, I find it unlikely, not
impossible.
It could be that I didn't havewhat these companies are looking
for, and it's completely avalid argument in my opinion,
with a sample size of 50companies where that happened.
I don't know how much I buythat, but it's certainly a
possibility that we just didn'thave the skills that these
companies were looking for.
Time 50.
But, going beyond that as well,also thinking about companies

(16:40):
where I did say it and then Igot into the interview and then
I talked to a person and then Igot rejected.
I would definitely say that whentalking to a human, seeing how
they spoke with me, talked aboutme, maybe they asked about my
neurodiversity or something,whatever it was that is where I
saw more of the human element,more of how people may be biased

(17:01):
for or against or impivalenttowards people who are
neurodivergent, and it reallydoes come down to what.
Do they know about some autismand are they going to project
that onto me?

Gina (17:15):
Right.

Nicola (17:17):
So and I'm pretty confident that you're talking to
a network of people that are ina similar situation to you,
where there's neurodiversity andthere's potentially autism or
the raft of things that they maybring with them that are
completely different I'm curiousto know how that translates

(17:39):
into the workplace.
What are we seeing happening tothese people in the workplace
that makes it potentiallyhostile or toxic?
So do you have potentially someexamples of how that kind of
translates?

Shea Belsky (17:56):
Some of the biggest things that I've experienced
personally, either with myselfor people that I know, is, as
you mentioned, that sort ofmaybe hostile or unfriendly
social interactions orconfrontations.
Since becoming more aware ofneurodiversity, I'm able to sort
of be more aware and careful ofthose social interactions.
But there were definitely beentimes in my past when I've said

(18:18):
or done something or behaved ina certain way which wasn't
acceptable, but at the time Ididn't know any better, and that
created a negative interactionor relationships with me and
somebody else and I didn't knowany better.
So it created a difficultsituation for me, for my manager
, them having to talk to meabout it and whether or not I
knew about it or never at thetime was a whole number of issue

(18:40):
.
But I've definitely been insituations where people get
really budding heads of me forthings that maybe are in my
control or out of my control andit's up to me to manage it and
keep my cool.
Or else I blow my steam, lose mytop or something else happens
and I'll be honest and say Ihaven't really had what I would

(19:02):
call a breakdown or meltdown inthe workplace.
I've come close, I've come veryclose, I've burnt out, which is
different.
But I know a lot of people whohave had a lot of really
stressful either sensory oremotional situations go on and
they have chosen to sort of stepaway from work or take time to
themselves to be quiet.

(19:23):
And people don't really knowhow to handle that.
Just only because when you asan outsider with no knowledge of
what it means to have ameltdown, have a breakdown or
experiencing that or seeingsomebody who's experiencing that
, what are you supposed to do?
Most people would leave themalone, but others just be more
confrontational about it, whichhas made my life difficult and

(19:45):
people who I know in those livesvery difficult.

Gina (19:47):
How does that look, though , for you, and what would you
suggest?
A co-worker who maybe works inproximity to you, but maybe you
guys aren't chummy.
What would look like the bestcase scenario for you with
something like that at an officeor a workspace?

Shea Belsky (20:09):
If something was happening in a workplace, let's
keep it simple.
Let's just say it was a sensorything where the lights are
really bright or there's anannoying sound coming out of the
background, or there's a smellor something which is not
related to a person, but justsomething in my environment.
What I would choose to do as aperson is try to relocate myself
, to not be in a situation,whatever possible.

(20:30):
If it's a smell, go for a walkor do something else.
If I can't do that, if it'slike a light above my desk, then
it's a matter of addressingthat, with my manager saying,
hey, this light is bothering me,can we fix it?
Just trying to be respectfulabout how I address it rather
than making it selfish.
And where the confrontation,where the negativity comes in,

(20:51):
is that other people feel likeI'm asking for these things or
trying to make these changesbecause I'm being selfish or
trying to get a leg up abovethem.
But the idea behind theseadjustments, these
accommodations, is not to createan advantage.
It's to create equity.
Whether or not a regular personor a typical person can work

(21:12):
the same way that a brightoverhead light doesn't matter to
me.
But if I can't do my workeffectively with this bright
overhead light, then I wouldlike to change it so I can work
better, and 90% of the time Ishouldn't bother other people.
But there's a 10% of people outthere who feel it's some
personal attack against them,that oh, this person wants to
ruin my light so I'm going togive them a hard time for it.

(21:34):
And that has happened to me inthe past, where people give me a
harder time than they need toabout something that does not
affect them at all.

Gina (21:41):
Yeah, people can suck sometimes like they just don't.
So that leads me to the nextquestion.
If you just close to the hiringmanager whoever it is your
disability and then somethinglike this comes up right, let's
say, the light is constantly,it's too bright, as you said,

(22:04):
right.
And then maybe your co-workersdon't know that you have a
disability, how do you addressthat?
That's right, it's like apersonal thing.
You don't have to tell everyone, you don't have to announce it
to the whole company.
But how do you determinewhether or not to tell the
people who are in your closeproximity?

Shea Belsky (22:25):
I think it really depends on the scenario and in
that example, where, if I'masking for something that would
change their environment oraffect them in some way, I think
it's constructive to say aslittle as you need to while
still satisfying their curiosity, because if they hear someone
say I'm autistic and this is anever tangent but it's an

(22:45):
important topic when you say tosomebody, when I say to somebody
I'm autistic, they immediatelyassociate me with whatever their
next closest definition ofautism is.
It could be a family member, itcould be something from TV
movies, whatever they are goingto immediately look at their
definition of autism and put iton me, unless I choose to tell

(23:06):
them otherwise.
And that's where things getreally tricky.
So in the workplace I need tosay to people very carefully hey
, I'm autistic and what thismeans is sometimes sensory
things such as light, smell,smell, whatever bother me a lot
more than normal person would.
In a situation of that beinglike a light fixture, I would
say I'm having a really toughtime being able to work because

(23:28):
of these lights.
I would like to ask HR orbuilding facilities or whoever
it is, to put shades over themso it's a little bit darker, and
, assuming that no one has aproblem with it, because get it
done and the likelihood thatsomebody has a problem with it
is really really low.
But in that moment it's amatter of what do they need to
know to empower them withinformation without getting too

(23:53):
personal.
I need to tell them about allthe other stuff, but what do
they need to know to support meand what do they need to know to
not feel like I'm being selfish?

Gina (24:02):
Right, like you're just there to ruin their lighting.

Shea Belsky (24:07):
Yeah, it's important in that sense.
I don't want it to come offthat I'm trying to be selfish or
really self-serving as regard.
It's about creating equity, notcreating another environment
just for me.
The simple situation would beif I could move out from
underneath that light, that'seasy.
Nothing else has to changeabout the environment other than

(24:28):
me moving a desk to like a rowover or something.
But if they can't be done, thenwe go to plan B, which is change
the lights if we can.
And that happened at a previouscompany of mine where a lot of
people worked for planning aboutthis and enough people did
where HR put up shades above thelights in a certain part of the
office and then buildingfacilities took them down

(24:48):
because it was a fire hazard.
That was a big fight going backand forth between HR and
building to keep them up, put,take them down.
That was a whole never can ofworms.

Nicola (24:59):
Do you find that there's Because then I'm going to kind
of give this a caveat when I'mdone stating my question but do
you find that there's anyindustries or professions that
are more akin to people thatcould potentially have
characteristics of autism orcharacteristics of

(25:20):
neurodivergency, or do you feelthat it's?

Gina (25:24):
pretty much any or playing field.

Nicola (25:27):
Yeah, open sliver.

Shea Belsky (25:29):
In my opinion, I feel like when we think about
the answer to this question, thefirst thing that comes up to
mind is, like IT and engineering.
I don't necessarily thinkthat's a fair answer, not just
because of the stereotype ofbecause autistic people work in
every industry under the sun andjust because the large majority
of those that we know abouthappen to be in engineering

(25:50):
doesn't mean there aren't offersin other industries.
So I don't think I can answerthat question honestly because I
think to do so would play intothe stereotype of.
They make me software engineersand I'm not an example of that
because I am a software engineer.
But I know a lot about autisticpeople who are extremely
creative, who love to work withfood, who are good with their
hands, who let them be outside.

(26:10):
Like to say that we belong inone bucket, one industry, more
than ever.

Nicola (26:16):
You can only aim at new engineering.
You're done.

Gina (26:20):
Only software engineering.
That's it.

Nicola (26:23):
The reason I ask is because at my previous workplace
we had a team of kind ofresearchers and it was really
interesting work that they weredoing and the majority of the
team was neurodivergent orautistic and some of them were

(26:44):
engineers, some of them were not, but it was mainly around
research and development forthis organization and it was
fascinating to see the dynamicsof the team, because you needed
to kind of go in with a specialmindset to be able to kind of
engage or get information out ofthe team as well.

(27:06):
So you've got this team that isjust filled with fascinating
information and if you don't,it's like a Rubik's Cube, right?
If you don't ask the rightquestion for the information
that you need, you're notgetting the information.

Shea Belsky (27:24):
I do think to come with the observation.
I do think that, to be honest Ithink in engineering I would
say attract more people who areneurodivergent and autistic
because of the environment thatthey're working in.
But I don't think that thatmeans that the majority of
people who are autistic work inan industry.
But I think it is appealing topeople who are neurodivergent in
the sense that they have muchmore flexibility and control

(27:47):
over their environments.
They have a greater sense ofautonomy in that regard and they
can basically do their workwithout being supervised by as
many people, as opposed to, forinstance, a customer service job
, which is all about workingwith people.
If someone gets reallyfrustrated or has a hard time
working with people, that's nota good industry for autistic
people.
Does it mean that autisticpeople can't do customer service

(28:11):
?
I know some of work great atthat, but it really depends on
the individual and I think, toanswer your question, the
observation that autistic peopleenjoy working in the industry
is accurate, but it doesn't meanthat the majority of them are
actually there.

Nicola (28:25):
Great.
I'm also curious to know whatare some of the, because I know
when we spoke in our meet andgreet, we spoke a little bit
around the really toxicstereotypes that we've created
for autism and neurodivergency,and one of them being hashtag
Big Bang Theory Sheldon, and soI'm curious to dive a little

(28:50):
into that as to how we've kindof created these toxic
stereotypes and how so manypeople assume that that's kind
of the standard, or the boldstandard, of autism.

Shea Belsky (29:04):
I alluded to this earlier, but when people think
about somebody who's autistic,one of their first stereotypes
is either Sheldon Big BangTheory or Rain man from the
movies, and that's a veryharmful stereotype in the sense
that it doesn't constructivelyrepresent people who are
autistic in a way that does themany respect or justice.

(29:24):
It portrays the Sheldon example, specifically portrays somebody
who's kind of mean, kind ofselfish, kind of aloof and all
of the negative, deficit-basedthings that autistic people
sometimes are, but by no meansdo they represent everything an
autistic person is.
It doesn't represent theirpassion or their joy or their

(29:45):
happiness.
It's that representationspecifically focuses on a very
selfish, individualistic modelof what an autistic person is
supposed to look like, but by nomeans is that accurate with
regards to everything that theyare.
It doesn't really portray howthey make other people happy,
what their love language is, howthey get really happy and by in

(30:09):
the world.
I think it really sort of variesbased on the interpretation,
and there's greatinterpretations of autism and
their diversity that are outthere, either out there today or
being developed.
One of my favorite portrayalsof it today is actually by Pixar
, disney Pixar.
They have a short film outthere called Loop, which

(30:29):
portrays a non-speaking,autistic black woman, a black
actress who is going on a summercamp, like it portrays the
story of a child, but the idea,by eating, that it's a black
woman who is non-speaking,autistic and a black man
neurotypical, black childneurotypical, and how they
interact that it was verycarefully, very precisely

(30:53):
designed to be authentic andreal.
And the actress is also anon-speaking autistic woman.
So really authentic, reallycareful about how it was
presented, how it came acrossand, I think, very tasteful, I
would say, and I think that itdoes a much better job of saying
this is another flavor ofautism and not just pigeonholing

(31:17):
us into one stereotype oranother.

Nicola (31:21):
What I'll do is I'll insert a little clip from the
video in the final edit so wecan see a little bit of the
little view into the mind-sideof.
Did you say it was Disney?

Shea Belsky (31:36):
I'll put it in the Zoom chat here Disney.
It's on Disney Plus.
If you have that, if not, withtrailer that they're on the
internet too.
It's Disney Pixar.
It's called Loop.

Nicola (31:45):
I think it's a good idea to put a little clip in there,
because I think it's importantfor us to really highlight the
fact that neurodivergency andautism we've said this many
times but it's a spectrum.
It could be anything between Aand purple.
That's another thing as well.

Shea Belsky (32:08):
It's not just a spectrum.
My personal belief system isthat putting it on a spectrum is
very linear.
For instance, comparing theindividual from the movie and
myself.
Is it really linear?
Because it's a short film, it's12 or 15 minutes, it's not long
, so you would never know thewhole breadth of life that they

(32:30):
live.
But I'd argue that they were alot brighter or smarter or more
capable of things than I am insome areas, whereas I succeeded
in others that they don'tCommunication, sensory stuff,
emotional awareness but I'm surethat they are more capable in
some other areas that I strugglein.
So making it very linear as aspectrum doesn't fully describe,
I think, what's actually goingon.

(32:51):
So I subscribe to the model ofit being more of a color wheel
where it's not linear.
It's much more, I would say, ofa circle, in the sense that I
can be great in areas involvingcommunication, involving
emotional intelligence, but Istruggle in an area which
involves sensory stuff, verydetailed social interactions or

(33:13):
things that are regarding otherthings related to sensory stuff.
Like my struggles vary, but notto the point where it's linear.
I know a couple of non-speakingautistic individuals who are
far more intelligent than I willever be.
They just can't talk.
So who is, as we say, highfunctioning?

(33:33):
Low functioning I don't likethose terms either, but who is
where on this proverbialspectrum?
Because when you think about itin a very two-dimensional way,
you kind of lose a lot of thestrength behind it.

Gina (33:46):
Hmm I agree with that I totally.

Nicola (33:50):
I'm on board with a color wheel.
If we're going a color wheel,I'm there for it.

Shea Belsky (33:56):
It's different.
It doesn't mean that thespectrum is wrong.
We live in a society whichrefers to autism spectrum
disorder.
That's the medical definitionfor it, so it doesn't mean that
that definition is wrong.
The color wheel is just abetter way to say it.
The spectrum is not an invalidway of describing it, but one is
better than the other.

Gina (34:16):
Right.

Nicola (34:19):
Yeah, I think that's why I said you know from A to
purple, because you know, youjust don't even know where, like
it's not from A to Z, it's fromA to who knows what, because
I'm sure there's so many kind ofintricacies that haven't even
been identified yet as part ofthe process.

(34:42):
Or even you know the colorwheel, I guess.

Shea Belsky (34:48):
Yeah, like it's some autistic people who I know
love sound, they love clubs,they love parties, they love
loud things, they love brightthings, they love smelly things.

Nicola (34:58):
I'm none of those things .

Shea Belsky (34:59):
So just to say that either one of us is for a lot
of the spectrum.

Gina (35:03):
I'm with you on that Che I don't like clubs, I don't like
loud things, I don't like overlysmelly things.

Nicola (35:10):
I don't like bright lights.
I don't like people chewingLike don't breathe near me, like
it don't even like make eyecontact most of the time.
I know.

Gina (35:21):
That's why I saw you were such good friends, Nicola,
because we're like we arefriends who exist virtually,
just online, right?

Nicola (35:28):
Like don't breathe near me, you can breathe on a
different continent, it's fine.

Shea Belsky (35:32):
My eye contact hack is to look at myself on a Zoom
call, so that's been one benefitto the pandemic, if there was
any benefit to it not makinglight of it but being on a video
call and not having to looksomeone in the eye.
I look at myself, which is alot easier than serving at
somebody else or serving intothe camera.
I find it's serving into thecamera very awkward, but I look
at myself in the camera and itlooks like I'm looking at the

(35:54):
camera but I'm not actually andit actually helps a lot.

Gina (35:58):
But then me, I'd be like I don't want my internal dialogue
.
I'd be like God, you're so ugly, like when you look at yourself
so much like you start likepicking yourself apart, like at
least that's what I do.
So I had to learn the opposite,because I would be, you know, I
would always be looking atmyself thinking like, oh my God,
I have to get this fixed, likevery, you know, like weird, like

(36:21):
that.
But I have to focus on theperson speaking, which I think
is really funny.
So anyway, nicola, what do youdo?

Nicola (36:32):
I do a bit of both.
Yeah, I do a bit of both.
If I'm getting, if I'm gettingfatigued in the meeting, I'll
just watch myself because I'mless fatiguing than others, but
then I like to look at others tokind of concentrate as well.
So I'm a bit of both.
I'm a little hybrid-y.

Gina (36:50):
You are.
I love it.
I love the hybrid situation foryou.

Shea Belsky (36:57):
I did my first ever like in-person speaking thing
about neurodiversity yesterdayand it was so weird for me being
in-person because everythingthat I've done has been virtual.
This was the first time, Ithink, since the pandemic, where
I had done it in-person and I'mlike I've kind of forgotten how
to like read a room, like lookat the people in the eye and
just sort of like manage thatin-person, because for the past

(37:19):
three years it's all beenvirtual.
I haven't had to worry about it, and now that we're back to
being in-person events it's sodifferent, it's just a whole
different can of worms.
How did it?

Nicola (37:29):
go?
I don't know oh how did it go?

Gina (37:32):
It went over really well.

Shea Belsky (37:33):
Like it was a lot of networking People who I'd met
virtually when I was seeingin-person for the first time.
Lots of opportunities tosocialize, chat about
neurodiversity.
The event was hosted by anorganization called
Neurodiversity in the Workplaceand they're a great organization
to check out, similar to whatwe do, but they're a nonprofit,
really focused on empoweringcompanies to also become more

(37:56):
neuro-inclusive and really helpthem get where they're going.
It's related to my companyMantra we are for a profit, they
are not for profit, so kind ofa different track, but similar
outcomes Okay.

Gina (38:09):
Do you want to tell people who might have neuro?
Have you do this, Nicola?

Nicola (38:19):
I was actually going to go for a totally different.

Gina (38:22):
Go ahead.

Nicola (38:23):
Go ahead, let's go a different rabbit hole.
I'm curious to know so let'ssay, you've got Gina and I as a
manager I'm curious to know whatwe could do to best support
someone on our team that hasneurodiversity or autism.
What is the best thing that wecould do to make that

(38:46):
comfortable, accommodating,inclusive and, most importantly,
supportive as a leader?

Shea Belsky (38:54):
The first thing you should do is just sit down and
listen to them.
As I said before, your firstinclination may be to impose
your existing idea of autismneurodiversity onto them.
You need to check out at thedoor and just listen on top of
them first, and here what theyhave to say.
I am autistic and this meansABCDE, and it may line up a

(39:14):
posterior type or it may not,but you never know if it did or
didn't, if you just assumed whatthey needed and walked away.
So the first thing you have todo is just sit down and listen.
There may be scenarios where anautistic person may not know
what they need.
They may not know how toadvocate for themselves or what
they need to be successful, andthat happens to a lot of people

(39:37):
who are struggling in aworkplace but don't know what
words to say or don't know whatthey need to be successful.
Lots of companies have ERGs orcommunities or other groups
about disability orneurodiversity.
In those situations it may bebeneficial to pair up this
employee me with a mentor orsomeone else from there to help

(40:01):
reduce a lot of that stigma withsomebody who understands it,
like at both of my previouscompanies before Nantra I'll
name them because I enjoyed itthat much.
If you don't want me to let meknow.
You can cut it.

Nicola (40:13):
If you feel comfortable naming them, go.
That's a good shout out to hey,these are really cool.
Diversity inclusive countries.

Gina (40:21):
We're both struggling right now.

Nicola (40:26):
I cannot say words today , apparently.
I think it's a start.

Shea Belsky (40:30):
Words are hard on the first days.

Gina (40:33):
Yeah, well, it's Friday morning for Nicola.
It's like 5 am Friday morning.

Shea Belsky (40:38):
To answer the question, wayfair and HubSpot
are two previous employersbefore Nantra and at both
Wayfair and HubSpot they haddisability communities or
neurodiversity-specific ones.
So both of them I was able to bea part of different mentorship
programs that they had helpingconnect people who are disabled
or neurodivergent in some waywith folks who have benefit from
having a buddy or a mentor,somebody who knew what they were

(41:03):
doing with disability and maybesomebody who was less confident
in themselves.
So in this example I would say,having a peer mentor, someone
who can empathize directly withtheir circumstance, even if it's
not exact, is hugely helpful.
As of the before, two autisticpeople can be very different.
So while having a mentor-menteescenario between two autistic

(41:26):
people isn't guaranteed to haveexactly the same results, it'll
still be really good to havesomeone who at least can
empathize or understand withtheir plight and just be able to
roll with it and have a goodconversation and just having the
same shared diagnosis or labelof autism or neurodiversity or

(41:46):
whatever it is.
And as I think, even havingthat peer mentor is really
advantageous and really powerfuland Wayfair and HubSpot both
had that and I really benefitedfrom having those mentors and
also being a part of theirprograms when they were around.

Nicola (42:01):
That's awesome.
That's really positive to hear.
I think maybe what I'll do aswell is I'll head over to the
two websites and see what it isthat their statement is, or
their.
Do they have a DNI inclusivitystatement?
Oh my word, the words are notcoming to my brain today.
The words are not worded.

Shea Belsky (42:24):
HubSpot is huge about this.
Hubspot, I would say, is, Iwould say, miles above the rest
in terms of creating a culturethat is inclusive and supportive
and equitable, where peoplefeel like they belong.
I really felt as though atHubSpot the leadership is very
approachable, you can haveconversations and the culture
around having a disability wasreally relaxed and chill.

(42:48):
And that starts at theleadership level HubSpot's
disability community.
The executive sponsor was aperson with a disability, which
I think is huge in breaking downbarriers and allowing people to
feel comfortable to talk aboutthe disability with their
manager, because if this seniorvice president is out there
talking about disability veryopenly, then I have no reason

(43:10):
not to.
My manager should care becauseif not, this VP is going to go
chew them a new one.

Gina (43:18):
And that also, who are we talking to is talking about how
affirmative action might affectdiversity and inclusion in
workplace.

Nicola (43:26):
Oh, the lawyer, Stephen the lawyer.

Gina (43:28):
Stephen, the lawyer Right, because so he was making the
bridge between this whole.
What was it?
The Supreme Court.

Nicola (43:39):
Yeah, the Supreme Court's rules against Supreme
Inspection is not happeninganymore.

Gina (43:44):
And so he was saying what is that going to look like now
in a work spot, like in aworkplace in a work spot?
My words are not wording eitherthis morning, nicola.

Nicola (43:56):
Maybe we just have like word elitist, I don't know what
we have I don't know what I haveA brain box, we have brain
farts.

Gina (44:06):
I think we're both brain farting.
Yes, okay, fair enough.
Anyway, he was making.
He was saying what is thatgoing to look like for American
corporate culture, ifaffirmative action, because it's
closely related in terms ofthose boxes that you mentioned
earlier?

(44:26):
Right, it's like.
So do you have thoughts on that?

Shea Belsky (44:32):
I do.
I actually spoke about thiswith someone at the event
yesterday and the currentconsensus is that it doesn't
appear to be affecting theworkplace just yet.
I think companies are aware ofit and sort of reading through
what happened and trying tounderstand what's going on.
I don't think any of them areready to pull the plug in
anything or giving away just yet.

(44:54):
But it does seriously bringthose programs into question.
For instance, there are lots ofcompanies which have a specific
neurodiversity hiring programand if affirmative action at the
job company level goes away,then those programs are illegal
or obsolete.
So then what does my company do?
Because we work a lot with alot of organizations who have

(45:15):
these sorts of programs.
So that puts my company out ofbusiness, but also it makes it
very hard for companies tospecifically bring in talent who
is underserved or struggleswith a traditional process.

Gina (45:28):
Right, and I guess because you were saying with HubSpot,
the, the president of theneurodivergent group, is that
what you called it?
I don't know.

Shea Belsky (45:39):
They were a vice president in some of our
capacity in HubSpot.
Who has a disability?
Who is the executive sponsor ofa disability community?

Gina (45:46):
Got it okay.

Shea Belsky (45:47):
Disability more broadly, not just neurodiversity
.

Gina (45:49):
No, right, that was my mistake.
So like and this is going backto what the lawyer said earlier
this week that it's like howimportant is it to have people
in these powers of like, inleadership positions and so on
and so forth, who look just likeus?
You know whether and that'swhere the diversity inclusion
comes in right?

Nicola (46:10):
So it's like we need leaders from all different
backgrounds, and that's not whatwe.
You know, we're still kind ofstuck in this 1990s vibe where
it's male, pale, stale up at thetop.

Gina (46:26):
Exactly, we're that male, pale, stale.

Shea Belsky (46:31):
A huge part of it is seeing like those leaders out
there who are neurodivergent orhave disabilities in some way
shape or form Like, and there'snot a whole lot of them that are
out there which are so open andtransparent about it.
Something that I try to do inmy life as a leader is to be
open about it, to break thatbarrier down.
My co-founders at Mentor do it,but beyond that there's not a

(46:52):
whole lot of people who are outthere talking about their
experience with disabilities asfrequently or repetitively as I
think they should be.
That's not the fault of them.
People have different levels ofpersonal comfort with the topic
, but if more people are outthere talking about the
disability or neurodiversity andde-stigmatizing it, a lot less
the conversation would be sodifferent.

(47:14):
For instance, a good example ofthis is Richard Branson, who is
the CEO of Virgin.
He has a sexia and he's reallyopen and talks about it all the
time Great example.
A counter example might besomeone like Keanu Reeves.
I love him dearly.
He's one of my favorite maleactors of all time.
He has a belief.
He has a sexia, Doesn't talkabout it as often as I think he

(47:35):
could to have an inspirationalor motivational impact on others
with the sexia.
That's not the fault of him inany way, shape or form.
I love this man to death.
I think if he upped the anteand how much he talks about it,
he would really have a massiveimpact on people who look up to
him and respect it and it wouldcause more people to look up to
him.
Keanu is going to be listeningto our podcast.

Nicola (47:56):
Yes, who knows?

Gina (47:58):
That's the thing, though.
You're 100% right.
You just don't know right.
You never know where in theworld it's going to end up.
So you're right, but I would beso stoked, as growing up in the
late 80s, early 90s if youcan't reuse I had to check.

Shea Belsky (48:15):
He has a sexia for sure.
I once said there was a sexiaor ADHD.
It's a sexia.
I love this man to death.
I love the matrix, I love JohnWick, so all of a sudden.

Nicola (48:24):
Look at him.
I only just recently discoveredJohn Wick.
It's a little violent.

Shea Belsky (48:32):
We'll be tangent.

Gina (48:33):
I know, but yeah, keanu Reeves is pretty awesome, so it
would be cool if he actually didlisten to our podcast.

Shea Belsky (48:38):
I love him dearly.

Nicola (48:39):
Yeah, maybe we should tag him in the social medias.

Shea Belsky (48:44):
Maybe he's like my celebrity guy, crush Him and
Josh.
Groban I love Josh Groban.

Gina (48:49):
Oh, I got Josh Groban on the office to bring it full
circle, as Nicola would say.
Did you see any of the onesthat he's in?

Shea Belsky (48:57):
I didn't know he was at the office at all.

Nicola (48:59):
Oh my God, I've watched all of the office and I do not
remember this.
Did I sleep through thatepisode?

Gina (49:04):
He plays Andy's little brother, who's favored.

Shea Belsky (49:10):
That's news to me.

Nicola (49:11):
Wait hold on Watch me this is news to me too, where
I'm like hold on.
I literally recently bingewatched the whole, all of the
seasons, because I was like ohmy God, yes, it's definitely him
.

Gina (49:23):
Okay, let me just get in the office.

Nicola (49:26):
I'm sorry, I'm here for it.

Gina (49:30):
Okay, he's in.
Okay, he's in the garden partyone.

Shea Belsky (49:40):
When.

Gina (49:41):
Andy has the garden party at his I mean at Dwight's beet
farm.
Oh, yes, now I remember, yeah.
And then he does like.
He has a couple of cameos lateron, like when Andy's the
manager and his dad, his parentsdie or whatever, and then
they're on the boat to likeBermuda or whatever.
He has a few cameos there, buthe's been in a lot of like TV

(50:08):
shows because he's like oh, he'sso funny.

Shea Belsky (50:11):
I love him.
He's on Broadway right now andI wanna go see him.

Nicola (50:14):
I'll do it.
He's good.
We've gone way in relation towhere you are.

Shea Belsky (50:20):
Four hours for me, four hours Broadway, new York.

Nicola (50:22):
Oh, that's not bad.
Yeah, I think it's a good traindown I have a volcano four
hours for me, Like I gotta getit.

Gina (50:30):
Yeah, all right.
So, nicola, do you have anyother questions?
Comments.

Nicola (50:38):
Learning questions?
I think no.
I'm really happy that wecovered off like what we could
do as leaders to betteraccommodate for people that may
have neurodivergency andpotentially autism or whatever
it is that they disclose.
I'm curious to know more aboutMENTRA, though.
So how did this come about andwhat was?

(51:00):
What was?

Shea Belsky (51:02):
the happen there.
So I met the co-ventors ofMENTRA February 2020, right
before COVID shopping is down.
For the very first time I metwith them, we hit it off really
quickly and we decided to reallystart to figure out how we're
gonna take this idea that theyhad.
They had the idea.
The way I describe it is theyhad the dream and I was the

(51:22):
artist who could make theirdream a reality.
I was doing all the engineeringtech work.
They were the ones that came upwith, like, actually what we
were gonna do and that reallylaunched us into what is now
MENTRA.
We have like 34,000 job seekersthree years later.
We work with companies all overthe United States.
We've gotten almost 100 folkshired over the last year or a

(51:43):
half and this guy has the limit,as far as we're concerned, in
terms of getting folks hired ina way that respects them, give
them a job that are equitableenvironments for them where they
feel like they have to supportand structure that need to be
successful, and also educatingother companies about how they
can do better for their hiresnot just people who they're
hiring, but people who arealready in their organizations.

(52:06):
A big part of where theseneurodivergent initiatives don't
succeed in is they only focuson hiring, just getting people
in the door, and then, oncethey're there, I was like, oh
okay, you're gonna have fun.
But the reality of it is thatif neurodivergent people don't
have what they need to besuccessful in their company,
they're just gonna leave.
They're gonna be either forcedout or they'll quit.

(52:28):
And MENTRA also focuses onempowering companies and
embedding within them orassessing their
neuro-inclusivity, how inclusivethey are for neurodivergent
individuals, and helping themimprove and grow and become a
company that people really wannawork for.
And companies come on to MENTRAand they talk about their

(52:50):
neurodiversity.
Why should a neurodivergentindividual want to work for you?
Why should they bother?
Why?
What makes you special?
And then for the job seekersthemselves, we ask them talk
about your neurodiversity.
What do you need to besuccessful as a neurodivergent
person?
What are your superpowers?
And then also the generic stufflike work history, schooling,

(53:14):
skills and stuff like that.
So it really is a mixture ofbalancing how to allow the
neurodivergent aspects to comeout for the job seeker and the
employer.
It's wild, it's crazy, it'schaotic.
I certainly enjoy it.
It gets me out of bed in themorning and it really is just an
awesome thing to do.

Gina (53:36):
So did you guys?
All you guys all had previousexperiences working for other
companies being neurodivergent,and that's what gave you this
idea Like how could this havebeen smoother, how could it have
been better suited or inclusive?
For someone like me Is thatsort of the impetus behind the
idea?

Shea Belsky (53:56):
So that was my experience.
We're going to it, To be honest, with Conor Angelica.
The genesis of the company camefrom Angelica.
She has an older brother who isnon-speaking autistic and she
gave a TEDx talk at Georgia Techand she's also a keynote
speaker at the Grace HopperConference down in Florida, a
massive conference for women intechnology that happens every

(54:18):
year.
She was a keynote speaker Ithink it was 2019 and I saw her
keynote and I went wow, this isamazing.
I want to get behind this.
Conor Angelica are now adiagnosis being neurodivergent.
That didn't happen until a yearor so after they founded MENTRA
, so they didn't know that theywere neurodivergent themselves
until they saw the diagnosiswere medical, professional,

(54:41):
which is very expensive and veryconfusing and time consuming.
As you get become an adult.
It's a lot easier.
When you are younger, becausethere's more to work with than
when you're an adult is muchmore resistance to it.

Gina (54:56):
Okay, so that's interesting though.
So they had, like, theircareers already sort of in front
of them, and the whole timethey didn't realize that they
had.

Nicola (55:07):
Whatever it is that they were working with Diagnosed
with.

Gina (55:11):
Yeah, so that's so interesting, but okay, so how
did you meet them?

Shea Belsky (55:19):
On the subject of a late diagnosis, it happens
really frequently if someone isaround someone else's
neurodivergent and they're like,oh wait, I'm seeing a lot of
the same things in them that Isee in myself.
Maybe there's something goingon here, or they're in an
environment where the stigma orthe conversation around

(55:39):
neurodiversity is much morepositive, or they have the money
and the resources and supportstructure for diagnosis.
There's a lot of reasons whysomeone can get a diagnosis
later in life and there are alot of reasons why someone might
not be able to.
It is definitely an oddity, butI would not say that it's rare.
It happens a lot more oftenthan people think, for the

(56:03):
reasons that I mentioned and forothers.

Gina (56:07):
Yeah, absolutely, if you need to answer your question.

Shea Belsky (56:09):
Go ahead, cy.

Gina (56:11):
No, I also think there's just more transparency about it,
especially over the last yearor so.
People are starting to talkabout it fairly freely, so I
think it opens it up for peoplewho, like you said, who might
not realize it or until they'rearound someone else.
But I feel like this is what'shappening with ADHD Everyone's

(56:37):
talking about ADHD, right andhow everyone's, especially women
.
I feel like a lot of women arerecently diagnosed.
Yeah, I found that, especiallyon our age like 35 to 50, I
would say People I followed foryears on Instagram.
Now they're saying well, I wasjust recently diagnosed with
ADHD and they're within our agerange and it's like that's, on

(57:00):
one hand, that's fantastic, likegreat, let's normalize it right
.
But on the other hand, it'slike is this just a diagnosis?
That is being like I thinkthat's what you're reacting to.
It's like, oh, you can'tconcentrate on one thing for
like more than an hour, soyou're automatically ADHD.
So it's like you know, I mean,I don't know, because a lot of

(57:21):
the ADHD characteristics, like Ifeel like you and me, nicola,
would fit right in there.

Nicola (57:26):
So I'm like hyperindependence, hyperfocus,
hyperfunctioning.

Gina (57:31):
I'm like, is that just trauma?

Nicola (57:32):
responses Like I know, and I'm like I personally would
probably not get, like Iwouldn't go to get a diagnosis,
even if I've got these similartraits to someone else, because
I'm like, I'm pretty confidentthat that's a trauma response.

Gina (57:50):
I'm the same and I'm like, what's the difference?
What's the difference?
What's the difference?
Like, let's say it is somethingthat can be diagnosed.
I'd be like, okay, and like Istill operate this way, so like
it's not changing the way I'mdoing things Right and it's like
it's been successful so far.

Nicola (58:09):
But then isn't that like the key takeaway here, right Is
?
You've got an entire group ofindividuals that have
neurodivergency and autism and,regardless of their diagnosis or
not, that's still the waythey're going to operate.
So it's about you know, makingsure that there's those
accommodations in place, becauseit's like well, just because

(58:30):
you have a slapper label on itand put it in a jar doesn't mean
that that person's going to beany different because of it.
They're just going to beexactly who they are and live
their true self.

Shea Belsky (58:44):
The idea behind a diagnosis is not that it's meant
to change things or like reallymake it like a flashpoint type
of thing.
The idea is some people need adiagnosis to get access to
medication.
Workplace may need a diagnosisbefore they can give
accommodations or something likethat.
It really varies on anindividual's needs.
So the most common example isgetting a diagnosis to be able

(59:07):
to get medication either at amuch reduced rate or free or
something else, or asjustification for the doctors
that go out and get aprescription for you.
It really is.
It's not meant to make anythingdifferent, but it can also have
the social effect of helpingyou understand.
This is why I've beenstruggling for all this time.
This gives me now a community,a framework within I can find

(59:29):
self help without medication ifthat is what you want to do.
It provides closure to a lot ofpeople to say this is the name
for that thing that's beenbothering me for all this time.

Nicola (59:40):
That's a really good point as well.
I think that's probably thepiece of the puzzle that you and
I were missing, gina, was thatit does provide access and
availability outside of yourscope, where you were previously
.

Gina (01:00:01):
Yeah, and this is my fault .
Now, thinking more about it andas we're talking it through,
ADHD and neurodivergency arelike you can't really compare
them.
They're completely un-.

Nicola (01:00:13):
Okay, and again, I'm no doctor, Not just to be clear.
But isn't ADHD a type ofneurodivergency?

Shea Belsky (01:00:21):
It is, adhd is considered a part of it.
Adhd is a way of describingsomebody who's neurodivergent.
One of my co-founders, jilica,is ADHD and autistic.
She's neurodiverse in thatregard.

Gina (01:00:36):
Wait, I might just be really old.
I didn't realize that.

Shea Belsky (01:00:41):
I realized this you can be autistic.

Gina (01:00:43):
You're younger than me.

Shea Belsky (01:00:45):
You can be autistic and neurodivergent, but
neurodivergent does not meanthat you're autistic.
Neurodiversity covers a lot ofrelated definitions.

Nicola (01:00:55):
Yeah, adhd is part of the family.
It's part of the family groupof stuff Again, not a doctor
Like I'm just now lumping itinto a group of stuff, a family
of stuff.
That happens, it's related,it's related.

Gina (01:01:11):
Okay, okay.
So even with our example ofADHD, that was the part we were
missing.
Okay, having that diagnosisopens up access and availability
of things that maybe youwouldn't have before.

Nicola (01:01:26):
And I think you know what, Now that we're talking
this through a little bit moreand I'm having time to percolate
on this a little bit is I don'tthink that you and I are the
only two Muppets on the planetthat had that same thinking,
Right.

Gina (01:01:41):
Oh no, for sure not, we're both Muppets.

Nicola (01:01:44):
That too, but it's all over Instagram right now.
That ADHD stuff, especially forwomen, is all over Instagram
and if you and.
I can make the same assumptionsbased on the information that's
provided to us and not reallyknow all of the facts or the
details.
We're not the only Muppets onthe planet that have probably

(01:02:05):
done that.

Gina (01:02:06):
Oh for sure we're not, Because we're Muppets, yes, but
we're not intelligent.
We're two intelligent women whocan have conversations about
this, sometimes better thanothers.
Today's not our top work.
I don't know why we showed offwith peanut butter for brains

(01:02:29):
Just goofy, but yeah, I mean.
Now that I think about it, Iprobably did know that ADHD
would be considered part of thewhole neurodiversity.
I don't want to use the wordspectrum on the color wheel, but

(01:02:50):
I think you hit the nail on thehead, Nicola.
It's the way it's beingportrayed.
Nobody is talking about ADHD asbeing neurodiverse.
They're calling it ADHD andthat's where they're leaving it.

Nicola (01:03:00):
Yeah, and then they give you do you have these traits
Right?

Gina (01:03:04):
Everybody under the sun has those traits at some point
or the other.

Nicola (01:03:08):
Exactly, and I think they're not delineating between,
they're not really giving youany more information other than
you probably have ADHD becauseyou have these same traits, and
it's like, well, not quite right.
So I think actually this hasopened a whole can of worms that
I think we weren't expecting.

Shea Belsky (01:03:30):
Yeah, it really has .
What Now you guys havesomething to talk about.
I said A big part of this ispeople have really different
experiences with neurodiversity.
Some folks live their livesneurodivergent and there's
nothing wrong with them or withthat.
I live my independent life.
I'm getting married in a monthand a half.

(01:03:51):
I do my own thing.
Some folks need a lot ofsupport to get for the day.
Some folks live with theirparents or in a group home and
need everything they can get.
So the experience ofneurodivergent people really
varies greatly from person toperson and the moral of the
story is not to assumeeverything about someone based

(01:04:11):
off of a diagnosis or a labeland just sit down on top of them
.
It's really important to justbe a good listener.
That's enough that they are.
It's something that I felt werejust being a good listener.

Nicola (01:04:21):
Personally, have found this conversation really
fascinating.
I think it's also unpicked ourown biases a little bit as well.
I think it gave an opportunityto be a little bit more
reflective.
Even just our conversationaround ADHD that just opened up

(01:04:41):
that thinking even further,which I'm hoping it would help
others to think differently too.
So I really appreciate youcoming on, Shay.

Gina (01:04:53):
It's been a great conversation.

Shea Belsky (01:04:56):
Absolutely.
Thank you for letting me borrowsome of your time to talk about
neurodiversity, share myexperiences in the workplace,
talk about movies Deadpool, johnMcKeon-A-Reeves, all that stuff
.
I love talking about it.

Gina (01:05:08):
Thanks for having me and tell us where people can find
you.
Give us websites, handles,whatever you want to give us.

Shea Belsky (01:05:15):
I'm on LinkedIn Shay Belsky.
There's only one of me.
There's only one person my nameout there, and if there isn't a
person out there with my name,tell me and I'll fix it real
quickly.
I'm on LinkedIn.
I'm on Instagram.
On TikTok, I'm starting to putsome more neurodiversity content
about there in the workplace.
I am artistic underscore techie, which should be a fun little

(01:05:36):
handle to remember, but if not,you can find me one place or
another.
Just look up my name.

Nicola (01:05:41):
Okay, yeah well, as I say, it's been awesome chatting
to you and I think we kind ofcame into it, probably blinder
than what we thought we were,absolutely, and I think it's
been really great.
So I really appreciate it.

Shea Belsky (01:05:59):
It's never too late to learn something.
Thank you so much for having meagain.
It was a blast.