From Foster Care to Freedom: Chris Martin's Journey to Healing

Chris Martin, shares his powerful story of transformation on the Let’s Get Naked podcast. From defending his mom at ten to facing prison for cannabis advocacy, Chris’s journey is one of resilience and growth.

He talks about breaking cycles of trauma, redefining masculinity, and learning emotional intelligence. With support from key people in his life, Chris turned his darkest moments into opportunities for healing and forgiveness.

Now, he advocates for incarcerated individuals and fights for cannabis as medicine, showing how our wounds can become our greatest strengths if we confront our truth.

This podcast dives deep into real, raw topics—think vulnerability, triggers, and childhood trauma. But just so we're super clear: I’m not a licensed therapist, mental health professional, or anything close. I’m just a human sharing stories, lessons, and life hacks based on personal experience and a whole lot of curiosity.

So, while you might find some golden nuggets here, this is not therapy and should never replace professional mental health care. If you or someone you love is going through it, please—seriously—reach out to a licensed therapist or healthcare provider. You deserve the real deal.

Need Help Now?
Here are a few amazing resources:

· 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (U.S.): Call or text 988
· NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-NAMI (6264) or nami.org/help
· Therapy Directory: psychologytoday.com
· Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741

The opinions expressed on this show are ours and ours alone—no official organizations are responsible for what we say (or how much we overshare).

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
I'd love to help you get vulnerable.
Let's get naked.
Hey everyone, I'm Ann.
Welcome to the let's Get Nakedpodcast, where we dive deep into
vulnerability.
In this space, we'll explorewhat triggers us, uncover the
patterns holding us back anddiscover how to take charge of
our own growth.
If you're ready to dig in, bevulnerable and face the tough

(00:30):
stuff, then buckle up.
It's time to get naked.
Today, we're going to talk aboutboys who grow up with fists
instead of hugs, with shoutingmatches instead of bedtime
stories.
We're not just talking abouttroubled kids.
We're talking about kids whonever got a childhood.
Boys who were born into chaos,handed pain before they even

(00:50):
knew what peace felt like, andinstead of stepping in with real
, deep support, we shuffle themthrough a foster system like
they're paperwork instead ofpeople.
You've got boys who learn toflinch before they even learn to
read.
Boys who grow up thinking lovehurts because that's all they've
ever known from the ones whoare supposed to protect them

(01:12):
Fathers who use fear as aparenting style, Step-parents
who show up angry and stay angry, and when the situation finally
explodes, when the systemfinally intervenes, what happens
?
They get tossed into foster carelike it's a solution, not just
another trauma factory with afresh coat of paint.
They move from house to house,school to school.

(01:32):
No stability, no roots, no onewho chooses them, and society
looks at them sideways.
When they act out like they'rethe problem, no one asks what
happened to you, just what'swrong with you.
These boys, these kids aren'tbroken.
They're surviving.
They're doing the best they canwith the absolute worst hand

(01:56):
imaginable.
And instead of real therapy,instead of trauma-informed care,
instead of consistent love,they get judged, criminalized
and thrown into the pipelinethat leads straight to prison.
Because once the world labels aboy troubled, it rarely looks
back.
It's infuriating because everysingle one of those boys could

(02:19):
have been someone different ifthey were just seen early enough
, if someone fought for them theway they've had to fight for
themselves.
But instead they grow upthinking they don't matter, that
pain is normal, that no onestays and that right there,
that's the real tragedy.
You want to fix the system?
Start by caring about the boys.

(02:41):
It fails all of them, not justthe ones who manage to hide the
damage.
Well, Today we're stripping itall off with Chris Martin.
Chris is known as the hemp chefand Billy Zonka, among other
things.
Chris has a powerful story thatwe're going to talk about today
and that you can watch on hisdocumentary Haters Make Me

(03:02):
Famous.
Welcome to the show, Chris.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Absolutely so.
I watched Chris's documentaryin preparation for the show and
was blown away by your story andI could not be happier that you
reached out to come and bewilling to get vulnerable and
share kind of the ingredientsthat make up the recipe of Chris
Martin.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
I feel like the universe is a really cool place.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
It is yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Like energies attract and magnet to each other, and
there's reasons for everything.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, Now, every time you open your mouth, I just get
more and more impressed withyou, so I'm excited to hear you
tell more of your story.
So let's start by just maybetelling a little bit about your
early childhood.
You know some of the thingsthat kind of shaped who you are
and what that looks like.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
You know it was a rough start.
I was the oldest of a few of us.
My mom was friendly, that's thenice way to put it.
She ran bars and we had severalstepdads and I've got brothers
and sisters from other peopleand you know normal, normal life
.
To me it really wasn't a badthing.

(04:11):
I love all my brothers andsisters dearly.
But my mom just had a drug anddrinking problem and I.
There's some psychosis involvedthat comes along with that and
it just.
You know, I don't think she wasever diagnosed postpartum or
anything like that.
I don't think that was a thingback in those days.
But there's definitely adisconnect with her and I.
There's things that go on andwent on with her and I in my

(04:34):
childhood.
That did not happen with theother kids, definitely not to
the extent, and I can't explainthat I just that's not for me to
even carry anymore.
So I've learned, you know Ijust that's not for me to even
carry anymore.
So I've learned.
You know growing up was moreabout defense and defending
yourself and your brothers andsisters than it was anything.
As soon as you heard violence,it was finding a way to protect

(04:57):
everyone else.
How do I keep them safe, whichis not a job for a 10-year-old,
an 8-year-old.
It's just not something weshould have to worry about.
I mean, I feel like that's whynow, as an adult, I do what I do
and I talk about it, because asa kid, no one had answers for
you and we definitely didn'tknow what those were.

(05:18):
Running away, those were thekinds of answers that we had.
So, you know, that was thefirst thing I did as soon as the
violence started happening andit was bigger than me, and I
realized it wasn't normal as Iran.
Um, you don't want to leavepeople behind that you love, but
you can't stay when you'regetting bitten in the face or
you're getting stabbed andburned, and there's just things

(05:39):
you can't be a part of.
You've got to get away in orderto help, and even as a 10 year
old, I guess I figured that out.
Um, not that the group homesand foster homes were any better
, but they at least gave you anopportunity that you could make
your own choice.
You know, like, if I don't wantto be here, I'm leaving, I'm
gonna, I'm gonna go, and if thatmeans I sleep at a high school

(06:01):
or I sleep on a park bench and Ihustled to make money, then
that's what I'm going to do.
At least I don't have to gethit and I don't have to live in
a home where there's 30 of usand not enough food or, you know
, fights and stabbings overtennis shoes.
At least it felt like thestreets were a little bit safer
and I was from there, so I hadhad friends.

(06:22):
I had people that to this day,until the documentary came out,
had no idea what I dealt withand I felt like that was that
defense mechanism.
I did it on purpose.
I wanted people to know me forme, not because I lived in a
boy's home or because I got beatup or I really just wanted to
be a normal kid.
You know, know, hey, I want togo play ball, I want to spend

(06:44):
the night with my buddy and goto our game and, you know, do
what kids do.
And I think that was thehardest part was that balance,
trying to balance that.
You know, like once a fewpeople figured out what it was
like and where you came from.
You know, not everyone agreedwith you, not everyone supported
that, thought you were weird orthought you you know you were
different and I definitelysupported that thought you were

(07:06):
weird or thought you, you knowyou're different and I
definitely was.
I I came from some differentstuff, so, um, it was an honor
and a blessing in one hand andthen another it was, it's kind
of torture yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
Well, when you look back and you realize that those
things, those hard things thatyou went through as a kid or
what make you who, you are right, that are what make the mess
that kind of turns into yourmessage and what motivates you
now as an adult, I think it'spretty powerful, you know.
So you don't have to look backat it from this place of like oh
my god, I'm such a victim.
You can do the work to healthat.
And then what are you going todo with that?

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Right.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Because I think those of us that have the biggest
scars are the coolest people.
You know, you're my people asfar as that's concerned.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
It's awesome.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
There's nothing interesting to me about a trust
fund baby.
Show me somebody that's beenthrough some shit that's been in
the trenches.
That understands that Obviouslyyou wouldn't wish that on
anybody, but I think it reallyteaches you about how gritty and
how deep of a person you can beby what you go through.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
Well, now I've taken it a step farther too, because I
feel like it also showed methat fork in the road and where
we all don't make that rightcall.
You know, like I've lived withboth sides and I have friends on
both sides and not everyonemade it, not everyone did walk
this walk and not everyone didturn that negative into a
positive, and that's where I tryto hit that root cause.
That's where I want to try togo back and help, is it?

(08:28):
I felt like, yeah, right in theinmates now that have been
caught for weed and in jail is agreat message and it's a great,
great work to do, but it'salmost too late.
They're already there andtrying to get someone to go back
and rewrite a shitty law or toget someone out is like
miserable.
It's not very easily done.
So then what's the root cause?

(08:49):
Where are we?
How far do we go back, you know?
And it's those kids thatcouldn't make those changes,
those kids that are faced withthat same problem every day.
But go, you know what.
I'd rather go rob that guy.
I'd rather pull that gun outand go make sure I get my money
Right.
I'd rather pull that gun outand go make sure I get my money.
And I kind of feel like that'swhere we lose it, where it's all
about.
Let the system deal with it,let the state handle it.

(09:10):
That's why we have programs,and I want that disconnect known
.
I want people to understandwhat programs.
You throw JTPA at somebody andyou put a bunch of gang members
in it that want to go try to getall the same job of driving a
truck cross-country.
That's not results and answers.
I'm just gonna put it out there, you know, showing these kids

(09:32):
that they can only qualify atthis one little junior college
to do anything in school.
I'm sorry, that's.
That's not an answer.
That's not a fix to a hugemental health-based problem that
we have, or the fact that dadsjust aren't in the house anymore
, that white elephant that sitsin the room, and usually it's a
black elephant too.
You know, we got a lot of dadsthat don't come home anymore and
, whether it be because bychoice, by drugs, or by prison

(09:53):
or worse, we got to fix it, andthat's kind of where I I feel
like we we've dropped the ballthe most yeah, no, I I couldn't
disagree with you more.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
I look at you, you know, when you talk about being
13 or being, you know, 10 orwhatever, and having to do all
of these really adult things,you know, protecting your
siblings or defending againstgrown ass men, right, when
you're 10 years old and you'retrying to defend against a
stepfather because you're in asituation like that, it makes my

(10:22):
heart just break for you inthat situation because you're
doing things that adultsshouldn't have to do a little
scary thing when you think of Igot to protect my mom, that's
your first instinct.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
And then, when you do , you know the beating, you know
what's coming down, becausethat's a man, that's not just
another kid, but you don't eventhink about that side of it
because I didn't care aboutgetting hurt because he's
hitting me.
Now you're not hitting her, andthat's what mattered.
Um, even to the point to where,when you got got to get violent
with a weapon, you know it's meor her.

(10:53):
And now I look back and I'mlike what was I thinking?
Like she didn't give two shitsabout that.
So why did I?
But at the point you knowyou're, I don't know.
I guess I was just raised alittle different, also Coming
from the Midwest.
You look out for your mama,sure, you look out for your mama
Sure.
You only got one.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, you only got one.
There's a special relationshipthere between.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Even to this day, with zero conversation or
relationship, she's still.
When we go back to Kansas,what's the first thing we do?
We drive right by my mom'shouse.
Does she have a clue?
Zero, not a chance.
Just my way of checking in myway.
Yep, she's still there, makingsure.
You know, that's all I got.
I run with it.
Uh, it doesn't mean that therelationship between her and I

(11:32):
is ever going to be anythingdifferent than that.
And I've, I've owned that.
I get that.
There's not a thing I can dowith.
It definitely doesn't make itfeel any better, but it's how I
deal with.
It's how I have to have to.
I I've gotta, I've got to beable to let go at some point, or
it's going to drag me down tothat hole.
But but I also still have tohave that decency, you know,
because then I feel like I'vechanged into her.

(11:54):
If I turn into that hate andthat, you know, I can't stand
her.
I want her away from me.
I did all that, I've walked allthat and it didn't make me a
better person.
It didn't do shit for me.
It made me evil, it made mewant to break stuff and throw
things and hurt others.
And if I didn't let go of that,then I'm right back at the
bottom with her and you knowit's a.

(12:15):
It's a tough battle back andforth, but I don't want to be
her.
I I've got five of my own kidsthat are grown up now and four
grand boys, and you know that'swhat my life's about.
She chose to do away with allthat.
She chose not to be a part ofthat and all I can say is you
know, mama, I'm sorry and thatsorry and that's on you, that's
your bad now and I don't know.
I just keep going forwardbecause if she's not going to

(12:35):
come, I can't wait.
I have.
It's been 50 years, you know.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
Well, and you've reconciled that so beautifully,
I think because there's nothingto be angry about in that
situation.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
Not at all.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
Even though, like you said, it was horrible and put
you in bad situations and shedidn't protect you in the ways
that she should have.
But I think when you realizethat she was doing the best that
she could with what she had,right she had.
Times were different back then.
You know Women were insituations where they didn't
have a choice but to be with aman.
That maybe was not amazing, youknow, to your kids.
But you know women were not ina position where they're like no

(13:07):
problems, I'll just go earnenough money to take care of all
of these kids.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
They didn't have choices.
My mom was a little different.
She was the type of person ifyou were a good man she wasn't
staying.
She was cheating, she was lying, she was shitting on you.
If you hit her, she loved youuntil the end of time.
If you knocked her teeth out,you couldn't get her out of the
house I house.

(13:33):
I can't even answer why, otherthan that addictive behavior,
the drugs and alcohol that areinvolved and the mental health
side of it from what came fromher and her dad.
Yeah, and you know, as I did myown digging writing my book, I
caught hell from all angles ofthe family, because my mom was
one of 15.
Oh, my god, a very yes.
My grandma was born inAustralia.
My grandfather and her met whenthey were young and brought to

(13:54):
the States where they had thislarge family.
Now, what happened after thatis still up for argument,
because my mom tells me onestory and I get a whole nother
from the other side of thefamily.
So I got told there's lots ofabuse, lots of violence and all
this other stuff.
Well, stuff, well, when thatcame out in my story I had aunts
and uncles attacking me likehow dare you talk bad about

(14:17):
grandpa that you don't even know.
And look, I'm just repeatingcomments that were given to me.
Obviously I wasn't there, Idon't know, but it would answer
a lot of questions if this weretrue and you get you know.
50, 50, yes, this happened.
Yes, this didn't happen.
So I take it more 85, becausethose who want to protect that
kind of bullshit deserve to beon the other side anyway.
And if you want to hide it andpretend like it doesn't happen,

(14:39):
you're just as worthless as thepeople inflicting it.
So again, you just cut thosepeople out and you move on with
your story.
But I learned a lot.
I've realized, like you knowwhat, what?
I don't blame her foreverything.
You know what she did is whatshe did and she's got to own
that.
But I can also understand thatsome of the challenges she had
as a 19 year old mom coming froma family who ostracized her, I

(15:03):
mean I learned things in thisjourney that I had no clue, even
since I wrote the book anddropped the doco.
My Uncle Gus, who was astep-uncle, my first stepdad was
Max.
We had two siblings from him.
I thought he was my dad for thelongest time.
I had no idea, until theyseparated.
Well, the story I always gottold was that he and my mom

(15:24):
hitchhiked across the countrywith me in a backpack and all
this chivalry shit.
And it was a lie.
It was not true.
My uncle Gus, which is hisbrother, just passed away last
year and before he passed he wasan attorney in St Louis that I
remember very few moments of mychildhood, getting to go visit

(15:44):
and go to St Louis Cardinalsbaseball game and going into the
arch with this guy and justreally liking him.
Well, he reached out and saidChris, you know I read your book
, I watched your doc and I wantto clear some things up that you
might not understand.
And of course I'm like please,anything I can do to fill gaps,
let's go.
So we drove all the way out, wemet with Uncle Gus at the

(16:06):
Capitol building Like it wasthis the universe making things
happen, you know.
And we sat and chatted and hesaid you know, I know you've
always thought that your dadleft you and my brother came in
and saved the day and he goes.
I want to tell you that's notwhat happened.
Your dad was stationed in FortCollins in Colorado, and so was

(16:26):
my other brother, joe, so allthree brothers came up to see
Joe while he's in the militaryand we go to this bar and your
mom just happens to be workingat this bar.
You were home as a baby, whichwe didn't even know.
Nobody knew that your dad's onpost.
Well, my brother falls headover heels in love for the first

(16:47):
time seeing your mom, and bythat night he's got her
convinced to pack her stuff andleave.
And they've moved back toTopeka, kansas, where you
thought you were from, becausethey had this thing that all of
a sudden now they're in love.
They didn't give your dad achance and I just froze.
So for 40 years I blamed my dadfor all this.
Just bad stuff, like you neverfound me.

(17:08):
You didn't come looking for me.
Well, now I just bad stuff.
Like you never found me.
You didn't come looking for me.
Well, now I kind of get it.
He was in the military, hecan't leave post.
What's he gonna do?
Like I gotta go find my son,like he couldn't do that.
So it changed a little bit ofthe narrative, obviously a
little after the fact, becausemy dad's gone now and um, and I
held a lot of disdain and grudgetowards him and maybe why
things went the way they went,and I was just thankful that

(17:31):
this guy, who I got to calluncle for a brief time in my
life, had the balls to stand upand tell me the truth, which
none of my family has been ableto do, and I, you know it
doesn't make me not like hisbrother or max or any of that
and doesn't make me none of that, it just it gave me another
perspective to understand whatwas going on at that time and

(17:52):
why.
And you know anything thathelps me lift the blame and the
pressure of wanting to be upsetabout something.
And now it's.
You know, it just lessened thatfor me to where I'd be like,
cool, I'm not mad at my dad asmuch Do I like my mom anymore.
Probably not as much as I washoping to.

(18:12):
But the truth is all you everwant to hear, you know, and it
makes sense.
It makes sense with the way mymom handled stuff and the way
she did thing.
It's not a surprise at all.
It just really made me feellike, damn dad, I didn't, I
didn't give you a fair shot atall.
I shot at all.
I, I held your foot to the firefrom the jump because that's

(18:33):
what I was told and you knowit's just.
I think he gets it now and I dotoo, and it's nice to have the
truth out.
Especially my my uncle, gus,passed away like not even weeks
later, so it was almost like hecouldn't wait to what a gift
just get it off his chest what agift for him to give you.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
I mean, I, I'm.
I find myself in that samefact-finding mission, because
the more that I learn about thethings in my childhood, the more
that I'm oh my God, thank youfor that, those aha moments.
Absolutely right, like thank youfor that extra perspective, you
know, or something that Ididn't understand, because you
just get what your perspectivewas from the age that you were,
and so when you have otheradults that are telling you here

(19:08):
, and so when you have otheradults that are telling you
here's how this actually was, ormaybe you didn't see this
because we were adults and youwere just trying to get, through
.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
I really trust Gus because Gus I see, I remember
seeing him in our pictures oflike the happy moments birthdays
, where he's got the cones onhis ears and he's being the
comedy guy.
I really remember those momentsand there's not a lot to
remember.
But he's also the guy that whenI did have this conversation
with, I used to have thisreoccurring dream all the time

(19:34):
where my feet were burning as ababy, like maybe one or two.
I remember being in my diaperand I remember standing in this
parking lot at 17th and fairlawn.
I remember the apartment, Iremember the parking lot.
I remember my mom laying in alawn chair, laying out and not
moving, me burning my feet andI'm just screaming like mom,
hello, and I can't talk but it'sburning, and I remember the

(19:56):
diaper.
It's just these little vividmoments that I remember.
And gus and I just happened toget into that conversation.
He's like chris, that wasn't adream.
I pulled up in my van and yourmom was standing there watching
your feet curl up on the parkinglot and she didn't move, she
didn't try to come grab you.
That's when him and his wifeKathy this is what he's telling
us at the time and he goes.

(20:16):
That's when we knew there was aproblem.
We knew there was somethingwrong.
We just there was nothing wecould do.
We would try to tell my brotherlike, dude, there's something
wrong with that lady like she'sjust not taking care of her kids
the way she should.
But it would always turn intothis war between mom and max
that it would put stress ontheir relationship and stress on
our relationship.
That gus was like I had to bean outsider.

(20:38):
You know I wanted to getinvolved, but there's only so
much I could do and I'm thinkingyou're an attorney like there's
probably lots of things youcould do but, he was a young
attorney with his own childrenand his own wedding and wife and
marriage and life, and you knowit.
Who's going to come on and takeon all these kids?
I get it.
I totally understand.
It's just nice to have someanswers now yeah, that's the

(21:00):
truth.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
It reconciles things for you in a way that it's like
you don't have to be soresentful and carry all that
anger around towards your dad,and then you can set that down I
let it free.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
We drove home that trip and it's about 15 hours and
it felt like three days becauseit was just, whew, I could
breathe again.
I didn't carry it.
I never wanted to, I neverthought I really did, until I
let it go and then I realizedhow heavy it really was.
Like man, I thought that dudehated me from the jump, like why

(21:30):
else would you not go see yourkid?
I'm a dad, you know, and I havechallenges with my kids, but I
fight every day to see them orto be in their life.
Or even when they don't answermy text, hey you better boy,
like answer my calls.
I just couldn't understand whythat wasn't there.
I couldn't get it, and now I do.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
You know, and there was a different time.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
It's not like he could text us, it's you know,
there were no phones yeah, justanother, another time frame
which, now that I'm matureenough to take all that into
account, you know it's.
I'm not the victim, I'm not theone taking the blame and
putting it somewhere.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
It was just something that happened yeah, I'm, I'm so
impressed with you.
I'm, I'm, literally I'm soimpressed with you and I'm I'm
assuming that this love muffinsitting over my shoulder has
about 90 credit for that.
Because you know she wants, shewants you to see, to see you win
right and and carrying all thatshit around, like I've been
telling different men in my lifetoo, like I don't think you

(22:25):
even realize you're carrying it,what you just said about being
able to set it down and how goodthat feels, and when you didn't
even realize it was there toset down.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
Didn't know.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
Right, didn't have any idea, but when you're able
to do that.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
You don't know you're carrying it until you let it go
and you're like whoa, Whoa yeahLike look how much lighter.
I feel I don't have to carry allthis around.
Grew up in a lot differenthousehold and I'm not saying I
would have beat women or doneanything that I saw.
I definitely know right fromwrong and have a conscience.
But who knows, maybe I wouldend up on drugs and alcohol.

(22:57):
That causes some other baddecisions.
You know, I really don't know.
I do know that because of who Imet and chose to spend my life
with, I don't even have to worryabout that environment.
You know she was.
Her parents were married 46years.
Just a whole, nother familylife.
Like if the phone's ringingit's either my kids or it's her

(23:19):
siblings, like there's no oneelse that calls those phones.
It's kind of.
The joke before her mom passedwas like did you tell your mom
If something happened?
Have you told your mom yet?
Because mom knew everything.
Like mom knew that Andy wasupset with me before I knew.
Andy was upset with me.
I'd have Andy's mom calling melike fix this now.

(23:41):
You know, like what did I do?
But that was the standard.
And you know, when I saw, whenmom passed and I saw her dad
just aimlessly wander throughthe rest of his being and not
even know how to grocery shopwithout her or not understand
how to cook a meal without her,running the kitchen, like I knew

(24:04):
I wanted that.
I knew at that moment, rightthen, like that's it, that's
what I'm trying.
I know I love her.
I know I love her and I don her.
I know I love her and I don'tknow how to tell her and I don't
know how to show her.
But I know that's what it lookslike with no, no man showing
you that like there's a lot ofthings you pick up on that you
could do wrong between thoseages and I.

(24:26):
I saw that and if it wasn't'tfor Andy and her dad and her mom
grabbing me, even at a youngage, even when we weren't as a
couple, just guiding me as a man, when I first got with Andy,
after there had been talk andwe'd been friends and we have
separate kids from separatemarriages, it was like a
momentous experience when herdad looked at me and said

(24:47):
they're yours now.
There's no other to to me.
That was the I made it momentnot now that I'm a grandpa and
I've got a retirement and I'vegot all this stuff going for me
and my kids are grown.
It was then.
It was like because he believedhe, he, he saw something there,
whether I was even there yet ornot, that he knew that he could

(25:08):
trust me.
He knew that they were in goodhands, even through all the
bullshit.
And I think that's only becauseI was honest with them.
I I told him where I came from.
I didn't try to hide it.
I I knew it wasn't the bestcase scenario for your daughter.
You probably want some guy who'sgot a huge money backing or
great parents or, and I got noneof that.
I I got.
I know what not to do.

(25:29):
I I learned what not to do andI can apply that.
That's all I can do.
He also got to see theexperience I had with his
grandkids.
You know who were my littles atthe time and they're all grown
up and call me dad and theirkids call me papa, and I think
he saw that then and I just knewthat's what I wanted to be like

(25:51):
.
Now, am I saying I'm anythinglike her father?
Absolutely not.
I couldn't.
There's not a comparison levelpossible to be that.
But that trying that, strivingto be that is the goal.
So that's where I'm at now.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
It's the effort that you put in with all of that.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Oh, they were just great people that didn't judge
me, they didn't.
And I put them through someshit, like I mean I was growing
weed in my garage like I knew Ihad crones but I couldn't afford
it and I needed the medicine.
And her mom walked in and waslike get that out of my house
now.
And she passed away.
And then I get raided like theuniverse is awesome, because if

(26:30):
you would have done that whileshe was here, we probably
wouldn't have stayed together.
She was a very powerful womanin their family, you know, and
not that Andy's not, but boy.
Her mom says leave this guy.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
There's some decisions to be made, you know,
and I knew that.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
I knew that.
But I also wanted them tounderstand that the decisions
were never made with malice orintent.
It was always to try to bebetter.
I didn't grow weed.
I had two plants when theybusted me, I wasn't trying to be
a kingpin drug dealer.
I was trying to grow medicinethat I knew I couldn't afford to
buy as a young dad, which youknow she was a Catholic grandma.

(27:09):
She's not trying to hear any ofthat shit, right she doesn't
care.
That begins with the letters pot.
You know and I got that thereare jokes now that we say that
you know, we've gotten wherewe've gotten.
And there are times where I'mlike, see, I told you.
Right and it's jokes between herand I that I know we'll deal
with when I get there.
But it's just funny for us inthe family to say we wondered

(27:30):
would she be proud now, becausewe know how against it she was
then.
But we've really made astatement, we've really put it
out there and let peopleunderstand that this is a
medicine, this is something thatneeds to be here.
So I don't know, it's kind ofan inside joke for our family
now.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
I absolutely love that and I think obviously
there's no in in you guysgetting paired up together and
her family being so strong wherethey could really take you in
and make you feel like youbelonged, no matter how hard it
was, no matter what you put themthrough.
Um, you know her dad sayingthey're yours now, kind of thing
.
I mean, that's the kind ofstuff where that's powerful shit
heavy.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, her dad passed from brain cancer and they were
pretty adamant that cannabiswasn't going to be an
alternative.
And her uncle was a sheriff for30 years.
So when dad got sick, mom wasalready gone.
Dad moved in with uncle anduncle which I didn't know at the

(28:26):
time was a cannabis supporter.
But I'm facing over a hundredyears in prison.
So trying to go to the familyand say, hey, look, I've got an
answer and I can put it in dad'sdrink and he won't even know it
and we'll just medicate him,that's just not a conversation
that I felt comfortable havingon a million dollar bond,

(28:48):
looking at over a hundred yearsin prison and trying to convince
an uncle who's been in theforest for that long.
So I told her.
I said, look, I'm still gonnado it, I'm gonna put it in your
dad's drink.
But no one can say anything.
I'm already looking at life.
This will put the nail in mycoffin like, but I can't watch
your dad die of brain cancer.

(29:09):
So I'm torn, like do I just runaway from this whole situation
and leave my love of my life?
no I gotta help her dad.
So I'm putting rso in her dad'saloe drinks and he's slowly
responding from the tumors inhis brain where there were times
he couldn't even answer you orcount on his fingers or change

(29:30):
the channel.
And now that we've beenadministering rso it's all
coming back and like she'd comein as his caregiver and he would
answer her as she would callhis name, so like it was too
late in his life to save him.
But he was getting quality.
Yeah, he was being able toenjoy his daughter and his
family and recognize them andnot have the tumors kill him.

(29:51):
Well, her uncle comes in and islike Chris, we need to have a
talk.
And I'm panicked, like I toldAndy.
I said oh, your uncle Georgewants to sit down and I think
it's because he caught meputting RSO in his drink and I'm
already looking at life likeyour uncle's 70.
Can I just run like he won'tcatch me, like I am physically a

(30:12):
little bit quicker at thispoint.
Can I just jam out like he?
You know, we'll call it even.
And she's like no, you can't,this is my family, you've got to
, you've got to talk to him.
So I walk into the room shaking.
I'm literally like I know he'sgonna call my, my, my parole
officer and I'm just it's over,like yeah, I'm gonna be on the
front page of the paper againand he said you know that stuff

(30:33):
you're putting in uncle dan'sdrink.
And I go yeah, yeah, I do.
He goes what's helping him,don't you stop?
And I just froze, like oh, andhe hugs me and he's like what is
it?
Show me how well, two yearslater, I built the grow on uncle
george's property and he makesour so for his whole family now,
which is something.

(30:54):
If you asked me 20 years ago,would that ever even been a
topic?
No way, no way, no way.
And I almost still feel guiltyeven talking about it, like I'm
going to get told on or go tojail for it, only because it has
been such taboo, especially onthat side.
But they're so thankful nowbecause they can make butter and

(31:16):
lotion and all the stuff thatjust I hate to say that, but all
the stuff that they used to getso mad at me for, like now it's
helping their family.
That's why I know deb istotally cool with it now.
You know, like I know she'sokay.
Um, it just it was heavy.
It was one of those thingswhere I, you know, you're right.
You know, like I know she'sokay.
It just it was heavy.
It was one of those thingswhere I, you know you're right,
you know what you're doing isright, but the laws are just

(31:36):
telling you you're a piece ofshit and everyone else has taken
that advice.
So I'm just glad now I canopenly talk about it and you
know it did help them and it'shelping the family still.
So you know I know mom's notmad.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
It's powerful that you were able to really stand
behind what you believe and dothe hard things, even if that
wasn't the popular things oreven if that was illegal.
At that point I mean, thank Godthere's people like you that
are able to really put your neckon the line for stuff that you
really believe in.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
You know, when I walk this out, this is where, like
religion and spiritualism andlife all kind of did a train
wreck in the middle of my life.
I was not a religious persongrowing up, especially as a kid
in the places I grew up goddoesn't let things happen like

(32:27):
that to children and that's justwhere I could not swallow it
like, yeah, granted, we're allgoing to grow up and have great
lives and walk this stuff, butwhat about the ones down here
getting raped and yeah, and andmolested and and abused and and
left on the street like where'sGod?
And I, I'm telling you like my,my motto was God hates me, like
he's walking behind me,flicking me in the head because

(32:48):
if he didn't, why was I allowedto see and endure a lot of these
things?
And I just didn't get it.
I didn't understand.
So flash forward to I getraided, I'm in trouble for this
edible company and I'm in jail.
Well, because of my childhood,unfortunately, I understand jail
and I get it, and being a 6,6'1", 250-pound, slung-down

(33:10):
ball-headed guy makes it prettyeasy.
I flip that switch and makepeople not like me real fast and
I'm running shit overnight.
It's not something I'm everproud of, but it's definitely
how I've survived.
So in walks a guy named Jim fromthe documentary.
He is an ex-Hells Angel,ex-club member.
He's very into the church andhe's convincing me about church

(33:34):
and God and praying over me andall these things that start to
happen that start to convinceyou that he's right.
I even poured my family intothe church.
We got out of jail, we bothworked for the church, my kids
ran youth group and I thoughtthis is exactly what I'm
supposed to do.
And then I start realizing thechurch is like using us.
They're like oh, look at theseguys, we can fix you just like

(33:55):
we fixed them.
And I'm over there going wait aminute, you didn't fix shit, we
did all the work.
Like, what are you talkingabout?
Well, then one of the eldersapproaches me and says hey,
aren't you that family that'sfighting the case that time?
Well, yes, I am.
Well, are you still usingmarijuana?
Well, yeah, I use cannabis asmedicine.
Absolutely I do.
I have crohn's.
I'm gonna die like I bleedevery day if I don't use this

(34:16):
medicine.
Well, you don't belong here ifyou still use the medicine.
I'm like oh, as you drink youralcohol at night and pop your
pills, right, you're telling me,even though genesis 129 and
revelations 22, to talk aboutseed bearing plants and giving
them to nations to heal.
Like, what are you talkingabout, old man?
Like, close your eyes and openyour ears.
You're totally contradictingand pissing on everything that

(34:37):
this is supposed to stand for.
So at that moment I was forcedwith this huge challenge.
I'm looking at life.
I have no safe space anymore.
I can't even take my kids tochurch.
I have no job because of allthese felonies piled up on me
and I'm a piece of shit in theeyes of every employer.
I have no insurance that'sgoing to take care of my kids.
If I go to jail for life, like,what am I to do?

(35:01):
I literally I remember sittingin front of my laptop.
My wife had gone back to workand I was having thoughts that
I'm not supposed to have.
Like I'll just leave the truckrunning and fall asleep in the
garage and, oops, it's anaccident.
Maybe then they'll take care ofmy family.
And even then I felt mad andangry and guilty and all the
like I'm not that guy.
And I remember slamming my handdown on my laptop, cussing God

(35:23):
out, going.
What did I do wrong?
I did everything you asked.
I jumped through every hoop Ilaid down, I gave it up.
It was too heavy, too light,too all.
I've done it like you know I'ma warrior, you know I'm the guy
you want on your side.
Why am I not getting theanswers I'm asking?
And all of a sudden my computergoes ting.
I open it up.

(35:43):
It's got this littleadvertisement from cavalry
church and I'm like yeah, yeah,yeah.
And it says revelations 22 too.
And I went like, okay, okay, Iget it.
Like I know the ending, I knowthe beginning.
I don't have a lot of shit inbetween, but I'll figure this
out and as soon as I read it, Igive to you all seed-bearing

(36:04):
plants to hill nations.
And okay, I'm doing your work,I'm doing your work and no
matter what I do, I'm doing yourwork, I'm doing your work and
no matter what I do, I'm goingto be doing your work.
I called Andy at that verymoment and, as I'm trying to
FaceTime her and take a pictureof the screenshot, that's 2.22
on the clock I dropped, my phonebroke, my computer broke my
phone.
We're both laughing with snotbubbles coming out of my nose,

(36:25):
and I'm like, look, we're goingto be okay, okay.
And she's like what the fuckare you talking about?
I said we're gonna be okay.
I know I'm looking at life butI'm not gonna get it.
I might have to go to jail, buteven you know, people on that
side of religion got in troubletoo.
And I'm not comparing anything,I'm not that at all.
But if you make a choice and youbelieve in it and you stand by

(36:49):
it, it's not always going to begravy, it's not always going to
be okay.
Sometimes you're going to haveto walk the tough shit out, and
that's what it told me.
That's what he told me.
Now, did I run back to church?
Absolutely not, told me.
That's what he told me.
Now, did I run back to church?
Absolutely not.
It showed me that this is aspiritual experience.
This has nothing to do withsitting in a room full of a
bunch of silver-headed peoplewho are just going to judge the

(37:09):
shit out of me because I don'tlook like them and that's not
where I want to be.
That's not where I want my kidsto grow up.
Do I believe in the bible?
I don't know.
I believe in a lot of it.
I believe in of it.
I believe in there's somethingbigger than me that caused all
of this to happen.
But do I believe?
Was that every word verbatim?
I don't know, I just don't know.

(37:30):
And I believe my God gives methat ability to not know and to
make those decisions now, andthat's all I teach my kids and
that's all I teach my family.
Does God empower you to dosomething?
I feel like that energy, thatthat, that spirituality is what
drove me to do the book and thedoco I do.
I wrote the book as a memoir tomy kids.

(37:50):
That's it.
It was a story telling my kids.
Look, I'm not a piece of shit.
I'm not what the news is goingto tell you, this big tattooed
ex biker guy that sold drugs.
All that's true, but it doesn'tmake me a piece of shit.
I want you to understand myside of it.
It only got turned into a moviebecause I actually took a job
with a crooked piece of shitbusiness and I didn't want their

(38:12):
money.
I didn't want anything to dowith the money.
I wanted the opportunity and Itook all that money and I turned
it into the book and the docobecause now I'm not holding that
shitty money, I'm not a part ofthat shitty company, but I got
value out of it and that's all Icared about.
And I don't mean monetary value, I mean the fact that now when
I went back home and I releasedthe book and the doco, I had 300

(38:35):
friends and family member thatdidn't even know, didn't know I
got punched, didn't know I gotbit.
And it's not that I even wantedthem to know, I just wanted
them to know that we made it.
I wanted them to know that.
Look, there's a lot of toughshit that we all walk and we all
go through and we all deal withit differently.

(38:55):
Like my best friend killedhimself over throwing a party
and ruining his yard, killedhimself over throwing a party
and ruining his yard.
I mean there's no rhyme orreason of why we end the game
the way we end the game.
I just want others to knowthere's other ways out.
You don't?
This knee-jerk end resultdoesn't have to be the permanent
way, you know, and I I feltlike there's so many times I hit

(39:18):
that wall and it was like gosh,I don't want to be here because
I'm not that guy and I've neverwanted to think that way.
But I think with especiallymen's mental health nowadays,
there's not enough talk about itbeing okay to have that
conversation.
You know, we have to have thisbravado and always be the tough
guy.
I was taught that.
I was taught that that's howyou defend yourself.

(39:38):
There's nothing better.
Now, when I'm in aconfrontation and I can walk
away shaking that guy's hand andI didn't know that before oh,
it's powerful shit.
I didn't even feel like thatwas a good feeling before.
I felt like that was the pussyway out and I feel so guilty For
the people I hurt, for thepeople I affected.

(39:59):
For myself I thought that wasabout being a man.
I didn't know any better.
And now I have little men,little men who are professional
fighters that know how to walkaway and why, that prefer to
walk away and teach a lessonversus teach a lesson.
And I couldn't be prouderbecause I never got showed any

(40:22):
of that.
I thought the man thing was youknow what?
No, you shut your mouth, I takeyour teeth.
That that's, and it's sad.
It's really sad because I wasproud of that.
Yeah, I was I.
It was something I could weararound because I was.
I was taught that when yourelease that energy and you let
it go, it's a good thing.
Holy moly, yeah were you wrong,holy moly.

(40:43):
Yeah, and felonies suck andthey're expensive and you're
always that guy at the partythat nobody wants to ever talk
to, unless they need someonebeat up like, no, that's not fun
, that's, it's just it's.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
It's nice to be able to admit that now, right when
you didn't before well, the waythat we were raised is the
vulnerability is a weakness forsure, right.
And boys were not encouraged toshow their emotions, and so
anytime emotions came up for men, we taught them to turn it into
anger and rage.
And when you look at that, it'slike no wonder all of the
violence, no wonder, right.

(41:15):
That's how you were culture itis.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
It is a dangerous culture because some of us took
that stuff real serious,especially as kids who fight for
your life.
When you live in a group homeand you sleep on top of your
tennis shoes because they willcome stab you with number two
pencils to take them, you takethat tough guy role very, very
serious.
So when I would walk into agroup home, even as the smallest
, youngest guy, my firstresponse would be to run across

(41:38):
the room, jump off the coffeetable and kick the biggest guy
in the face, not because he didanything, not because I wasn't
scared out of my mind, because Iwanted to set that tone that
I'm the psychopath, I am thelunatic, I'm the crazy one and
I'm not the one to mess with.
Uh, it's, it's.
When you look back at it nowand you see how many more people

(41:59):
and more boys not becausethere's women too, girls too,
but guys in that situation nowthan there were in my time, that
just scares me, because thoseare the guys that are going to
be roaming the streets at somepoint with zero understanding of
how this goes and how it works.
That's why I feel like it's myduty not just my honor, but it's

(42:19):
my duty to go back and speak.
Go back and talk to CASA and thepeople who support CASA and the
kids involved with it, becauseno one ever did that.
If it wasn't for Dave and thegentleman who worked for CASA, I
don't think that we'd be havingthis conversation.
I'd probably be gettinginterviewed in a prison cell.
You know, for other reasons andI mean that with all due

(42:43):
respect.
Just because it's hard to be ayoung guy in the state custody,
you don't have those peoplewalking around.
Oh, you should talk about yourfeelings.
You should sit down and justlet that out, and if they are,
they're probably trying to touchyou weird.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
Sure, exactly, at least back then, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
We had that happen in foster homes too.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
It's a ton of that right more than is ever known.
The more that we have this, themore that we record these
podcasts, the more that you findand and I've had these
conversations with my husbandbecause he doesn't realize, uh,
how big of a deal that is.
And I've told him specificallyto women, because I don't
generally get opportunities tospeak with men about this, but I
know two women, of all of thewomen that I know, that have not
been either raped, molested,you know, sexually assaulted in

(43:29):
some way, and it's like how, how?

Speaker 2 (43:33):
why is this normal?

Speaker 1 (43:34):
absolutely like we have to have these conversations
.
To me it's the.
You were talking earlier aboutyour family not wanting to talk
about certain things, and itwasn't like that.
And it wasn't like that.
It's like okay, I realized thatthat's how it was before.
Is that we're going to betucking stuff under the rug?
And it's shame, and it'swhatever.
That time is over.
I'm speaking at fucking fullvolume and I and I commend you
for coming here and speaking atfull volume about this stuff,

(43:56):
because that's how we make adifference with our young kiddos
.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
It's not about me anymore, it's not you know what
I mean and I feel like, if Ikeep all of it inside, that's
just mental health growing, yeah, and the wrong directions
anyway, and and there's so manyother people that are just
waiting to hear the rightsentence the right comment and I
remember the days when I haddave.
You know, like dave's stillalive, we go visit him.
We're getting ready to go seehim again.

(44:19):
I love him with all my heart.
But it was the.
I think back to all the dumb,goofy letters he used to send me
and the jokes and the.
You know, just the goofy stuffthat I thought was so menial and
just almost annoying as ateenager.
I am so thankful for todaybecause those were those little
five second blips and moments of.
This is normalcy.

(44:39):
This is what a real, honest,supportive relationship looks
like.
This is what a man being inyour life is supposed to look
like.
He would come to my footballgames Now I'm out in the middle
of nowhere, kansas, throwingmultiple touchdowns, doing very
well.
No one knew about it, and Davewould show up and video these
games and send them to colleges.

(44:59):
He's why I came to Arizona toplay college at Yavapai.
I had no clue what a Yavapaieven was, never heard of it.
Couldn't tell you wherePrescott was, and this guy gets
a hold of the coach and says Igot a kid, you should have walk
on and just let him throw theball.
Just see what he can do.
It's men like that that need tobe celebrated, that need to be

(45:21):
put out there and not hidden.
Dave was so selfless.
It was never about anything todo with him.
He would give up his time todrive three hours to pick me up
at the boys' home to go drive.
I'll never forget the one timethat him and I ever had a
disagreement.
It was because I was havingthose negative thoughts of like

(45:41):
I'm not going to get out of thishole, I'm always going to be a
boy's home kid, I'm never goingto be anything.
And that guy and I hate to getyou in trouble nowadays but he
literally put me against thewindow and said I am done with
you talking about yourself thatway.
I can't do it anymore Like youmake me miserable hearing how
bummed out you are about you.
This is what you are, this iswhat you will do and this is how

(46:02):
you're going to do it.
And just all.
He was never about pointing outthe problem.
It was about an answer Likehere's the fix, this is what
we're going to do, this is howwe're going to move forward.
And back then you know you wantto hate him and you want to be
angry Like I don't want to hearwhat the adult has to say.
But if he hadn't done that, ifhe hadn't taken that moment to
scare the shit out of mehonestly, because no man had

(46:24):
ever had the balls to get in myface, honestly, even my stepdads
, they wanted smoke until theydidn't.
Until I hit that age, until Iget that size of you know, I'm
done.
I'm done.
No one's going to hit meanymore.
No one's going to hit heranymore.
And and for once, when thishappened, I was scared to death.
Like, oh my God, he doesn'teven get mad.
This guy doesn't even get madat me ever.
Like I could say whatever andI'm usually okay.

(46:46):
Now he's like scaring me.
Like I didn't think he wasgoing to like kill me or
anything, but I just like I madehim mad.
I was more afraid and upsetthat I had upset him, yeah, and
I listened.
It made me listen.
It made me realize, like youknow, I'm hurting the one man
that's willing to put up with myshit and I need him.

(47:06):
And from that point on we havebeen best friends.
Like I actually hired him tocome out and be my edible chef
who infused my cannabis brand,which to me, is like the
complete, full circle part ofthis story.
He was the guy that wouldalways tell me you know, don't
play with your food as a kid,you're never going to get

(47:29):
anything out of selling drugsand and and weed and food don't
go together.
And I got to prove him wrong onall three levels, so much so
that when we had theconversation, he said I want to
learn like can I come see whatyou do?
So I flew him out to Arizonaand I found out during the time
we were searching for him to puthim on the doco, he had become

(47:51):
a chocolatier for RussellStovers and worked for them for
years.
He actually had been accreditedfor some neat things that they
had invented and it just fitthat now I'm doing chocolate.
He was the chocolatier for acompany.
Now he's learning how to infusecannabis into it and launched
my brand in 2018 in arizona.

(48:13):
So he's since moved back andgot back into selling insurance
and all the stuff that dave does.
But just the fact that I couldbring him into my world and not
feel threatened and not feellike, oh, this is a bad thing or
you know, it's open, it'spublic, it's part of my story
and we got to put him in thedoco.
I mean, it's just those thingswe spoke about that you can't

(48:35):
write.
I can't make this stuff up.
I wish I was that intelligent.
I'm just honored that I get towalk it out now, because the
first 15 years sure felt likequite a struggle and, yeah, no
doubt, didn't know where youwere going to go with it.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
So where, um where do you feel like the biggest
switch happened for you as faras just understanding emotional
intelligence and that there wasmore out there than just turning
everything into anger and rage?
Like what did that look likefor you?
I?

Speaker 2 (49:00):
know when I decided that I wanted to spend my life
with my wife.
Um, she knew both sides of me.
She knew the me in college,where, when we first met, yeah,
she was beautiful but a littleyoung, but we were really close
friends for a long time.
But I, I always had thesefeelings, but she also knew that

(49:21):
I wasn't ready, like she knewthat she, the maturity wasn't
there.
Had we chose to maybe betogether back then, I probably
would have destroyed it.
I wasn't able to get out of myown ego and out of my own way.
I felt like the world owed mesomething because of these
struggles.
Um, I felt like, because of allthe things I had lost, that I

(49:43):
didn't deserve good things.
I felt like that at some pointshe's gonna wake up and go.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
I'm gone I'm not sticking this out, yeah um, and
who had stuck it out anyway.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
You know, no one's stayed.
I mean, you mentioned it in theopening like we're kind of
programmed that way.
So I even told her like I madeher wait 10 years to get married
, which is rare.
The guy's usually not the onemaking anybody wait, it's the
other way around.
And I literally made her wait10 years and it was because I
said you know, if you wake uptomorrow and you don't want to

(50:16):
do this, you don't have to takehalf of everything and be mad or
angry.
We can just take what's yoursand mine and we can be friends
like we started.
And then there's no love lost,no feelings.
And that was my true belief,that was my real thought process
.
And in the meantime I didn'trealize what I was taking from
my wife, what I was preventingmy wife from having.

(50:36):
You know, it was all againabout me.
And I stopped at that verymoment when she told me you know
, if you don't want to do this,then I'm going to go.
And I stopped like wait, thatwasn't the plan, like what am I
doing wrong here?
And when she told me and whatshe wanted and what she believed
and how it felt, then Irealized right away that I've

(50:57):
got so much more growing andmaturing to do.
It was time.
You know, like I, I can't justkeep going through these motions
of acting like the man andpretending like the man but not
being the man.
And even you know like when wefirst got together, I was in a
motorcycle club.
I was the president of a club.

(51:17):
I was horrible to my family.
I was horrible to my wifebecause I thought that was the
excuse I was allowed to have bybeing in that role.
My dad was in the club, so Ithought that was my destiny.
I used that as a crutch.
I used that as an excuse toshit on everyone around me and
not grow up and learn how to bea man.
And it was sad.
I wasted a lot of time withthat bullshit and I learned

(51:41):
through the whole experiencethat there is no brotherhood.
If I have to write a rule bookabout a man being a man to me
and respecting me as one, I'malready in a bad spot.
It's sad that I didn't see thatbefore.
I looked at it as well.
You know what?
Now I've got a checklist.
If you don't hit the mark, Ican just act you out and there's

(52:02):
no question.
There's no.
Oh, I didn't know that, youknow?
Look, there's rules.
If you don't want to followthem, there's the doorway.
It's sad that, because of theupbringing that that's what it
resulted in, of how I felt Ineeded to build friends and
relationships, and I think thoseare the moments when I realized
like I don't need any of thatshit.

(52:23):
My wife's my VP, my family ismy brotherhood and that's what I
need.
And it's sad that it tooklosing a club or going through
those experiences and the raidand going to prison and all of
that to single my wife and kidsout and realize that those are
the only ones that are left.
They're the only ones that givea shit, whether you're here or

(52:46):
not.
None of those other people thatput you on this pedestal or
what you thought was on apedestal, none of it was real.
That doesn't matter.
I mean, I started as a prospect.
I didn't come in and start aclub and put my own patches on
me.
I walked in as a grunt.
I earned it.
I got voted into president,which I wore very proudly
because I thought I was supposedto.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
But none of it means anything.
What does?

Speaker 2 (53:09):
that mean President of what Great.
A bunch of other broken menthat don't know the direction
they're going.
The only thing I did good forthem was show them how to treat
their wives, and that was afterthe fact.
That was well after the club,because none of that happened
during the club.
Because I was an asshole.
I I honestly was, and that'swhy I do talks like this today,
because it makes me feel good toadmit it.

(53:30):
It makes me feel awesome to beable to say man, I'm past all
that shit and I love my familymore than anything today, and
you wouldn't know it from thepictures.
Back then you'd think I was thebest man and the best president
and the best club and the bestfamily, and none of it was true.
I I tried to force it to betrue because I thought that was

(53:52):
my destiny.
I thought that's what my daddid, this is what my dad's life
was, this is what and I didn'tknow him very well, but this is
probably what I should have beendoing and man.
I was farthest from the truth.
I really, really was.
I wasn't a man.
I didn't act like a man.
I mean, I was a coward.
I put my hands on people overwhat?

(54:13):
Over club rules, over you know,stepping out of line or
disrespecting my family.
I'm just I don't want to put myhands on anything ever again.
Ever, ever.
My grandkid gets in trouble andit's like come here, son, let's
have a talk.
You know what I mean.
I've turned into thatproverbial granddad.
I thought I should have.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
That's awesome, though Doesn't that feel so good
?

Speaker 2 (54:33):
I feel thankful.
I feel thankful that I didn'tturn into what the end game
probably was going to be.
I'm just thankful.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
What did the work look like for you as far as kind
of unpacking all of this stufffor yourself, like did you do
therapy?
Did you like what were some ofthe steps that got you to where
you are?
Because I'll tell you, you'reone of the most emotionally
intelligent men I've sat acrossfrom, like it's pretty
impressive.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
I started in therapy, therapy so I felt like I don't
know if you've ever seen themovie goodwill hunting, but I
felt, like somebody followed mewith a camera and then put the
movie out.
Because I was that kid.
I I'd go in there and lay onthe couch and tell the guy yeah,
I found my inner child.
We went fishing and we'rebetter, and it was a game.
It was, you know, and I reallydidn't feel like someone in a

(55:19):
college class that readsomething in a book was going to
come and tell me about what Ilearned, defending myself in the
shower against three guystrying to take something that's
not theirs.
You know, like I just I didn'tknow how that and that's also my
naivety as a teenager, as achild, not understanding life,
experience and learning.
But I don't know.

(55:39):
For me it was more about lookinginternally and and making those
changes.
Like you've heard thedefinition of insanity and I
lived it, I walked it, I worethat as a, as a badge of honor,
like, yeah, I'm going tocontinue to walk this path and
do the same shit and think I'mgoing to be different.
And once I stopped everythingfrom smoking to cigarettes, to

(56:00):
beer to uh, you know, staying uplate and watching crazy movies,
you name it I changedeverything.
We have a whole other lifestylenow.
We get up, we work out.
We do things together.
My life was always telling heron the weekends this is where
I'm going to be, for how manymiles?
That's just not what we'reabout.
I really had to look internallyand be able to look in the

(56:22):
mirror every day and understandthat I was a different person.
It's because I wanted that.
I really wanted to be adifferent person.
I didn't think it was going tobe that easy.
Now I say it's easy, obviouslybecause I feel like I've
accomplished something, but I doit every day.
Still, every day is a challenge.
Every day there's times I catchmyself don't respond that way.
You can't respond that way.

(56:43):
I have to go back and apologize.
Still to this day.
Grab my wife.
I am sorry, I shouldn't havesaid it that way.
I totally feel like an ass.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
And I know she's over there going.
She's like when exactly didthat happen?

Speaker 2 (57:02):
What did you do with my husband?
Husband, like, I'm sure it's aa change for her too, and by no
means do I want to sound likeI'm better or I'm I'm fixed or
none of that it's.
This is a walk, this issomething that we do daily, and
you know I have a motto that Ilive by every day that those who
want to be in your life will be, but that means for me too.
So all those people that I wantto be in my life, I have to

(57:22):
reach out.
I can't sit back and wait.
You know the challenges with mymom, one of those things.
I don't know if I'll be the onereaching out in that
circumstance.
Do I think the door's closedall the way?
Never.
It's your mom, you know.
I think that door would alwaysbe cracked for something.
But she's got her work to dotoo, you know, and until she

(57:43):
recognizes addiction and justthe things she's been through,
there's not much of anopportunity there, because we're
always going to be at theimpasse of.
You're better than me and youknow there's just lots of things
she's got to work on.
I just realized that every dayI've got work to do.
I wake up every day and go.

(58:03):
You know what make me betterthan yesterday.
Let me do this thing a littlebit better, because there are
steps I take backwards, thereare days where it's like man, I
just I don't know why things arethe way they are.
I just have to understand thatthere's a lot bigger things in
motion than me and raising mygrandkids is part of that and we

(58:25):
talk, we laugh, we joke a lotabout we sound like our parents
like I know my wife says that alot like I man.
I sound like my mom talking tomy kids, that my my grandkids
now, and I love that because Idon't know what that was like.
You know, I didn't have grandmaand grandpa, I didn't have that
guidance and being able to be apapa and learn that from her
experience with hers and herfamily, it's probably the

(58:47):
biggest learning I've ever had.
Being able to grab thatgrandkid and just have the
patience and have theunderstanding and have the
wherewithal and the bandwidth.
That to me, is worth its weightin gold, more so than anything
I learned in my own childhood.
To me it just made it all worthit.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
Well, and the way that you say it too, like it's a
walk and understanding that,like I'm just trying to be a
better version of who I wasyesterday, whatever that looks
like, and we're going to stumbleand we're going to make
mistakes and we're going to doall the things, but when you
have the family and the partnerand all of the things in your
life that push you to be thebest version of you that you can
be, that's it.

Speaker 2 (59:24):
We always say that How'd you get here?
And I?
To me that feels like final.
I'm not here.
I'm still walking, I'm stillgetting there.
I don't think I'm there yet.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
I don't think you're ever done Right?
I don't think you're ever donewith the work, but if you have
the tools to be able to realizehow to make things better and
how to really prioritize what'simportant to you same thing
Family is everything right.
When you realize that the restof it just kind of falls away or
puts itself into perspective ina really beautiful way.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
When they put me in prison for cannabis.
For two years I had no visitswith my wife, no contact.
Every time we would try tocontact, they would charge me
with something on the inside ofthe prison, as I was breaking a
rule to have conversations withmy wife, making it sound like
we're gang members and I'mtrying to talk to my gang member
wife and all this crazy stuff.
And I think that was the momentthat I you know, when you have

(01:00:15):
no choice but to do it on yourown, you have no like.
Granted, she's there, she's mywife, she's not leaving my side,
side.
But there's no confirmation,there's no.
I love you honey.
Hey, I still love you honey.
Hey, it's a year and a halflater.
I haven't even heard your voice.
Honey, I love you honey.
That's a tough deal and I know alot of people that have been in
long relationships could say,oh yeah, no problem, I could do

(01:00:35):
it.
We even need a break andwhatever the case might be.
But that's's a challenge, andnot just for me, because my role
was easy.
I got to sit in a scheduledroom and follow the same
schedule every single dayprogram day, program day,
program day.
She's the one that had thechallenges of you know, car
needs an oil change, oh, got aflat tire.

(01:00:57):
I got to pay the bills.
The kids need school clothes.
You know she had to do all ofthat and the questions that she
had to battle is he going to beokay when he gets out?
Is he going to be normal?
Is he going to go back to theperson I want?
Is he going to be better?
She had to carry all that andnot know.
So to me that was the battle,that was the challenge.
To me.
I had the easy job Just sitthere and don't get in more

(01:01:19):
trouble and just pray she'sthere when you come home.
She's the one that had to makethe call.
I'm going to do this and I'mgoing to stay solid, and she
really didn't have to.
I mean, you sit in there withlots of guys who tell you all
the stories of the ones whodidn't, and all I could do is
just sit there and go.
I'm honestly the luckiest guyin this room, and I just tried

(01:01:46):
not to brag about it.
I piss everybody off.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
Yeah, well, she sounds like a strong woman and
you're lucky to have her.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
My nickname in prison was Hollywood, literally by the
COs, because I would get somuch mail.
She made sure every single dayof the month I got a letter.
Every day my birthday month, Igot a card.
Single day of the month I got aletter.
Every day.
My birthday month, I got a card.
Every day of the month I got somuch mail I would, and our
story was out there because wehad court support and the brand
and so we had other letterscoming in too.

(01:02:12):
But I felt so bad about thegentleman around me I would hand
mail out like hey, man, john,read this to me.
Hey, steven, would you readthis card to me?
you know, so it'd become like a20 man thing where we would sit
down and just read the mailthat's awesome and go through it
and you know, that's awesomethat's how the non-profit got
started is once I got close tothese guys and I saw their

(01:02:32):
artwork and their ability andyou know, the ones who are
really solid, just men that madea bad choice yeah how else can
I help you?

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
what can I do?

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
to get your stories out there yeah so we sell their
artwork, we get their storiestold, we put money on their
books, which grew into a areally nice um job.
I love doing my job, but then Igot offered to be a board
member on a bigger non-profitfreedom.
Grow foreverorg.
Um, I'm not only a lifetimeboard member, but I'm an
honorary board member, and allbecause we just chose to give a

(01:03:03):
shit.
Yeah, and I really that's how Ifeel like it's.
All it takes is to give a shit.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Yeah, you can mean so much in somebody's life, just
yeah, plugging in and seeing howyou can, how you can serve the
collective right, how you canwhat?
What pulls at your heartstringsand then what are you going to
do about it?
I think that's the huge Justlike what you do here, exactly
so thank you so much for comingand taking time to speak with me
today.
I think your story is powerfuland I know that a lot will come

(01:03:31):
from this, just from peoplelistening and understanding that
there's a different way besideshiding emotions or pushing it
down or not feeling it.
So that's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
I appreciate you having me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
I really do thank you , um, okay, so that's our time
for today.
Uh, if you have questions orsuggestions, send us an email.
Our email address is ladies atlet's get naked podcastcom.
And then do all the things tosupport the pod follow, share,
rate and review and we willcatch you next time.
That's a wrap.
And review and we will catchyou next time.

(01:04:08):
That's a wrap.
I'd love to help you getvulnerable.
Let's get naked.