Karen's Transformative Journey Through Trauma and Growth

What happens when life as you know it turns completely upside-down?

Karen Nowicki joins us on the Let's Get Naked podcast to share her deeply personal journey through some of life's most challenging experiences. From her battles with postpartum depression to her husband's suicide attempt, Karen's story is one of profound awakening and vulnerability. Her path to becoming an integrative and shadow coach is both inspiring and enlightening, offering insights into self-discovery and the courage required to embrace life's toughest challenges head-on.

Karen's experience shines a light on the hidden struggles that many families face, especially when addiction and financial turmoil rear their heads. Imagine rebuilding your life at 60 while grappling with the complex emotions of grief, anger, and societal judgment. Karen recounts how she navigated these turbulent waters, emphasizing the power of empathy and integrity in the face of external opinions. Her story is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit and the healing that can come from openly confronting one's past while forging a new path forward.

Throughout our conversation, we also explore the intricate dynamics of family relationships, particularly in the wake of trauma. Karen shares her experience of going through a divorce, transitioning careers, and taking on the responsibility of caring for a loved one after a health crisis. Discover how music and personal expression served as a balm for her son Ivan as he processed his father's absence and found a new way to connect with his past. This episode is a compelling exploration of the human capacity for growth, healing, and reconnection in the face of adversity.

This podcast dives deep into real, raw topics—think vulnerability, triggers, and childhood trauma. But just so we're super clear: I’m not a licensed therapist, mental health professional, or anything close. I’m just a human sharing stories, lessons, and life hacks based on personal experience and a whole lot of curiosity.

So, while you might find some golden nuggets here, this is not therapy and should never replace professional mental health care. If you or someone you love is going through it, please—seriously—reach out to a licensed therapist or healthcare provider. You deserve the real deal.

Need Help Now?
Here are a few amazing resources:

· 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (U.S.): Call or text 988
· NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-NAMI (6264) or nami.org/help
· Therapy Directory: psychologytoday.com
· Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741

The opinions expressed on this show are ours and ours alone—no official organizations are responsible for what we say (or how much we overshare).

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
I'd love to help you get vulnerable.
Let's get naked.
Hey everyone, I'm Anne.
Welcome to the let's Get Nakedpodcast, where we dive deep into
vulnerability.
In this space, we'll explorewhat triggers us, uncover the
patterns holding us back anddiscover how to take charge of
our own growth.
If you're ready to dig in, bevulnerable and face the tough

(00:29):
stuff, then buckle up.
It's time to get naked.
Today, we're stripping it offwith Karen Nowicki.
Karen has worn many hats in herlife, from leadership, business
ownership, coaching andresilience.
She inspires others to findtheir purpose and chase
fulfillment.
Welcome to the show, karen.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, absolutely, I like to justdive in, as you may know, so

(00:51):
let's just get started bytelling us the story of how and
when you woke up.
For those that are listeningthat maybe don't understand what
I'm asking, I believe thatthere are variations of waking
up, that there are people thatare very much in the rinse,
lather, repeat cycle, where theydon't kind of really understand

(01:12):
that there's more happening,and then there are those of us
that I feel like have woken upor are in different degrees of
waking up, where we reallyrealize the importance of being
of service to others and reallybeing plugged into the universe,
and so I have found that peoplethat are awake usually have a
story that kind of goes with youknow when that happened for
them, some when they were young,some, you know, for me, mine

(01:35):
was much later in life,unfortunately, or unfortunately,
who knows but do you have astory of kind of when you feel
like you woke?

Speaker 2 (01:43):
up.
Which one do you want?
Story of kind of when you feellike you woke up?
Which one do you want?
Yeah, and I really I think I'dadd to that for me.
My experience for myself andclients, is we're never really
fully awake.
We're just going to get kickedback in the butt for a new
experience, to continue to growand expand.
So two things come to mind whenyou ask that question.
The first one, which was maybewhen I semi woke up, is after

(02:07):
having my first two kiddos, whowere 28 and 30.
I had pretty severe postpartumdepression and it was part of
the baby books that I skipped.
I read so many books onparenting and motherhood and I'd
get to that chapter onpostpartum depression and I
really thought I had a choicelike, oh, that's not me.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
I've got it together right, I'm not going down that
path and I and I literally wouldjust not even read those
chapters.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
And it was with my my oldest is 30, rocking him at
night and having these visionsout of nowhere where I might
hurt him devastating, horrifying, scary.
Fortunately I never acted on itand immediately was like what
is wrong with me?
How could I possibly even thinkabout harming this little baby

(02:55):
who's been entrusted with me andthat's me?
And so after the second time ithappened, I told my husband
which was scary and I went andgot help and a lot of things
unraveled after that.
Like it, that's a mental healththing right.
And so I began to openly talkabout that, and then life just

(03:16):
began to.
I found ways to learn, grow, beof service to others, to use
your language and help.
I got certified as anintegrative coach and a shadow
coach and really became tobetter understand how to be the
best version of myself, so thatI lead with my soul versus my
thinking, and also no leadingwith just the emotional part of

(03:38):
me, which I had done previously.
So then fast forward to justfive years ago.
I think the most majorimpactful lesson or calling was
when my then husband landed inthe hospital after shooting
himself in the head with asuicide attempt, and it came out

(04:00):
of nowhere for me.
I mean, clearly he was on ajourney but kept it to himself,
and he spent the next month intrauma intensive care unit and
then after that in a post-acutefacility for another month, and
then I just had one kiddo leftat home who at the time was 12.
, and I tried to bring him backhome and reintegrate him and

(04:23):
wasn't able to do that.
He was verbally abusive to ourson and I had to make a choice
and got a divorce In that first,like I don't know three or four
days that Mike was in thehospital.
I remember waking up and you andI spoke about this before we
started the conversation todayjust around how the universe
speaks to us.

(04:44):
I woke up and the first thing Ihad on my heart or on my mind
really was almost like this louddownload that said you're going
to talk about this while it'shappening.
This is only three days into.
I'm still in shock, still intrauma, and I just laid in bed
like and I don't know if I'mallowed to- Please.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
We use all the words.
We use all the words, karen Iremember thinking to myself.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
And again, this is God or the universe speaking to
me is my way of explaining it.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
And.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
I thought I'll just say screw you.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Who is stronger?

Speaker 2 (05:12):
than God and I thought another big lesson, and
this one's too big, this one'stoo private, it's not my story,
I'm clueless as to what'shappening, never been in this
experience before.
And then the next thing I heardwas I've been preparing you
your whole life for this, andthat's really when, my fuck, you
got serious.

(05:33):
I thought, really, this is thelove of my life.
We were together for 15 yearsand he was choosing to leave
this world and I'm what do I do?
How do I do this?
And how dare you suggest that?
This is where you've brought me?

(05:53):
Yeah, I'm in love.
I love my life.
We both had our own businessesand had just started them and a
son together and just neatfriends.
And now this and I'm a goodlistener and I follow where I'm
led when it comes tospirituality and growth, and so
I chose to openly write about it, first on our what do you call

(06:18):
it, I don't know GoFundMecampaign or the CaringBridge
updates, and then eventually,facebook for almost a year and a
half, wow, and lost severalpeople close to me.
His family refuses to speak tome.
My sister and I had a fallingout.
I was very careful about what Iwas sharing.

(06:38):
I had a couple of friends makesure that they read every entry.
So that three things One, I wastaking care of myself.
I was being respectful ofmike's journey, um, and not
stepping over what, what hewouldn't want people to know, um
, and that's tough.
That's tough to do when you'retalking about somebody else's um

(06:59):
attempt at life.
Yeah, and then uh.
Thirdly, that if there was anopportunity to have somebody
learn from it, was there thatcomponent of it?
Lastly, though, that I didn'tbecome this thing that I was
trying to fix everybody ortrying to be something bigger
than who I am if that makessense, it does.
And there's only one entry thatmy best friend from high school
and another dear friend fromyears later and a professional

(07:20):
friend around coaching andintegration and helping people
said, yeah, maybe just likeleave out this sentence.
I don't remember what it was,but every entry they were like
this is spot on.
And I will tell you that I grewa great following of people who
needed to hear what it's like tobe a casualty of a suicide
attempt.
That's really kind of what Iwhat I would say that Ivan and I

(07:42):
were.
We were casualties to this,this decision, this choice.
I'm not making Mike wrong forit.
I don't even know how I feelabout any of that.
I just have shared my journey.
So since then I've had torebuild my life, and rebuild it
without him, which is was neverpart of the plan.
Part of the plan, yeah, I willsay that he passed away a year

(08:04):
ago in Wisconsin.
He went home to be with hisfamily after he kind of
struggled to find his way hereand it was very tough all the
way around.
And yeah, so I, you know, justcontinue to shift and pivot and
question a lot.
I still question did I make theright decision?

(08:26):
How, um, you know, is it okayto fall in love again, which I'm
now engaged to be married, andall those things?
Um, and learning how to not beas concerned about what
everybody else thinks of me,even though I'm still concerned
about what everybody else thinksof me?
sure there's still that littlegirl in me that wants to please,
yeah.
Uh, even though I've comeconcerned about what everybody
else thinks of me Sure, sure,there's still that little girl

(08:46):
in me that wants to please, yeah, even though I've come a long
way, to say you know, I just gotto navigate life the way that
I'm led.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, no doubt you just even sharing your story.
From the beginning I had fullbody shivers just listening to
you, because it's when lifedeals you things.
It's like we're okay, I'mhandling this, but you do come
from this place of you know,fuck you to the universe of why.
Why am I navigating this?

(09:13):
You know you had a 12 year oldson.
I'm assuming the older two wereout of the house by that point
okay, so very close, you know asa family and love their stepdad
.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
but yeah, it was just the three of us at home Did you
have any idea prior to thishappening?

Speaker 1 (09:27):
Were there any signs of that?
Were there, you know.
Did you have a relationshipwhere he shared kind of any of
the struggles that he was goingthrough leading up to that?
Very strong masculine.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
I am unbreakable kind of guy.
He had had a battle withcocaine years before and that
was a surprise and shock to meand I thought, through our
agreements and conversations andsome help, that that had been
handled.
So there was heavy addictionthat he really kept a secret
from me, and because we wererunning both of our businesses,

(10:01):
we were both extraordinarilybusy for three years still
coming home and being family,but I wasn't unaware of what was
happening in his business as Ihandled mine, and so until my
family closed the business itwas an auto shop and made sense
of the mess it didn't come clearto me what was happening on the

(10:21):
financial end of things too.
So I'm 60 years old as of lastmonth and I'm starting over as
if I'm 23 years old financially,which is really hard to do
because, again, it was asurprise and I wasn't aware of
all the things that had beentaken from me as a result of him
just trying to figure out lifeA lot of personal loans that I

(10:41):
was unaware of.
As far as the addiction, I wasclueless.
He had disclosed a couple oftimes to a couple of close
friends that he I don't knowwhat language they said he used,
but that he was going to takehis life or that he was just
done.
And no one came back and toldme until after the fact, and so
I got a phone call one morningand just said you need to get to

(11:01):
the shop.
And I knew instantly when thathappened.
We were on a little thread withsome more baseball families for
our son and I knew in thatminute something was wrong.
And I ran across the street toget a dear friend who was very
close to Mike as well and I saidwe need to get the shop.
And she just intuitively knewas well.
And then life just changeddramatically after that.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
How do you hear that from someone?
This is what comes to my mindwhen you say that he said that
to other people, and otherpeople don't say that to you.
That makes me mad for you.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
Frustrated.
A lot of folks still, even allthese years later, are still
very angry at Mike for what hedid to Ivan and I, and I just
can't wrap my heart or my brainaround that.
He did what he felt he neededto do and I know that he loved
us.
For people not to tell me hewas just so strong, people not

(12:08):
to tell me, um, he was just sostrong.
He was just masculine inpresence, masculine in
conversation, strong ineverything, um, and I just don't
think anybody took himseriously and he would.
I can kind of see him, not thatI was in that conversation, but
I kind of see him, maybe liketapping on the shoulder, like
I'm just messing around, I'mjust, you know.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
I'm just messing around.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
I'm just, you know, I'm just.
And then they would discount itbecause he was just so strong,
yeah, and then when you got thepeek behind the curtain after
the fact, everything hadcrumbled for months before that
and he just kept.
This, in my words, would be afacade so that we were content
and happy even thoughfinancially we were ruined.

(12:43):
He was deep into an addiction.
He was not sleeping at all.
There's one gentleman, sweetestman, Pete, who once I started
sharing on Facebook.
This man reached out privatemessage on Facebook.
He's like Mike and I've talkedall hours of the night for
months.
I guess he was somebody whohelped him with a loan in some

(13:05):
way, Don't know the details ofthat.
And he's like Mike became mybrother.
He's my dear friend.
I can tell you inequivocallythat he loves you and Ivan and
whatever he chose to do, while Idisagree, he would tell me and
I think it's, you know, shamefulthat he did it.
I know he did it because heloved you.
So getting that feedback andhearing from people different

(13:25):
versions of who Mike was washard to swallow.
Yeah, and I like things inorder.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
I like things to, I like to know what's coming up, I
like to put things in bucketand if there's anything that
I've learned as I've woken upagain, to use your language,
there are no guarantees.
I don't know anybody else'sstory.
I really don't know anybodyelse's story, and nor does

(13:54):
anybody know mine, and that'sthe fascinating thing with
sharing so openly.
For all the years that I did,people have made assumptions.
When I got engaged let's givethat as an example Some man I
don't even know his name nowreached out in a private message
on Facebook and said, wow, yougot divorced two months ago and
now you're engaged to be marriedagain.

(14:15):
Shame on you.
Like, what a whore.
Or something like that.
And there was a much longertimeline there and I thought,
wow, the lens in which we seeeach other is.
We have to own that.
He had no idea what my storywas and I don't know at what
point he entered in and startedfollowing and keeping track of

(14:37):
what I was doing.
But again, that narrative camefrom.
Whatever his belief statementsare and whatever he decided
about me as also took place withmy family and Mike's family and
I can't control any of that.
I can just keep showing up andbeing the best version of me
that I know how and taking careof my little inner circle.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
I can't get my head around people that feel
comfortable to say stuff likethat.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
It's so weird.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
You have no idea.
You have no idea and also noone asked for your opinion.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
No, and, and had it been years before, I probably
would have like come back, eventhough I don't know this person.
He was just following me and,and you know, fought for my
opinion and tried to convincehim and I just, obviously, I
didn't even respond.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Right, right.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Right I thought, wow, that's just fascinating.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, yeah.
It's interesting to get to apoint in life where you really
don't care what other peoplethink, because you know your
opinion of me is none of mybusiness.
I stand behind thatwholeheartedly.
I teach my children that I youknow.
Try to relay that to friends,because I think we have gotten
into a place, especially withsocial media and with other
things, where we're reallyconcerned about what other

(15:44):
people think and I just thinkit's a waste of time.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
You know, I, I agree, and I'm still challenged to not
care what other people thinkabout me and and I'm okay with
that, I'm I'm more tender withmyself, I'm more gentle, I'm
more patient and you know, it'salmost like people say, like
unstoppable, be unstoppable orhave no fear.
Really, yeah, I don't know that, at least the way that I run, I

(16:14):
am going to be afraid at timesand I'm going to be stopped in
my tracks and I'm going to carewhat you think of me until I can
go do the inner work andunravel it and go ah, okay, yeah
, I don't need that.
So I'm going to choose to keepit out here.
Does that make?

Speaker 1 (16:30):
sense it totally does .
I think that that all ties intoemotional intelligence and also
just really understanding.
I think that mentality of likeI don't have fear, I don't you
know, unstoppable all of that.
I think that's not having agrip on your emotions.
On the other side of it becausewe do all have those things, so
it's like, yes, you can stilldo those things afraid, you know
.
That's part of it is like I'vegotten to a place in my life

(16:53):
where I'm not going to come froma place.
Of fear doesn't mean I don'tfeel fear, it means I'm not
going to let that dictate whatI'm doing and I will still do
things afraid, you know.
So it's still recognizing thatthat's there, still owning that,
but being intelligent enough toknow that that's not going to
stop me.
You know, I'm curious about, youknow, when you say after the

(17:15):
things that you learned, kind ofafter the fact.
Obviously, if he's in thehospital for a couple of months,
he's not at home trying to helpyou figure things out.
It always seems unusual thethought of unpacking someone's
life when they're not there.
You know, finding out thethings that you thought.
You know you had this wholefacade of him and he's this

(17:36):
strong guy who's taking care ofall of the things.
Then this happens, and thenyou're finding all of the pieces
of that.
It's almost like you didn'thave a full picture of the
puzzle, and then it's all ofthese things that you didn't
know.
What does that feel like?

Speaker 2 (17:52):
It feels like what is wrong with me that I'm that
clueless, that all these otherthings were happening and I had
little hints.
I remember coming home one dayand my son I said where's dad?
And he said, oh, he went up tothe bar for a drink and I was
excited because we were bothhome early.
I'm like do you care if I go upand surprise him?
Yeah, and and and just be gonefor about an hour.

(18:13):
He's like no problem.
And I I got to the bar and Iremember walking up to the bar
and Mike had a hard drink on therocks in front of him and and
our agreement was no hardalcohol again.
I don't know.
That seemed to make sense to meand any justified that.
The bartender just given him anlike this.
This whole thing of um untruthsstarted coming rolling out, yeah

(18:33):
, and I so desperately wanted tobelieve him in everything that
he said to me, because that'swhat we're taught to do when
we're in relationship withsomebody, especially so
intimately.
Um.
But then, when I look backafter the hospital and I could
see the signs of all theuntruths, I remember at one
point his mom had said to me howdo you not know that your house

(18:54):
is in arrears on the mortgage.
And I said, here's how?
I not know.
I had my bills that I paid.
And when I paid them, I toldhim I was paying them.
And when Mike told me he paidthem, I believed him.
I never thought to check and hejust did enough, just enough to
never have it, you know, gointo foreclosure for us.
And I just didn't pay attention.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
I think that's really common, though.
You know, I think in my house Itake care of the finances for
stuff.
If my husband wouldn't know,you know he wouldn't know as
long as his credit card workswhen he goes to use it.
Like that's his involvement inthe finances, like sure, we talk
about the bigger picture stuffof where we're going, but like
monthly stuff he's not, he's notplugged into that.
That doesn't seem outrageous,you know to not.
Also, it's so funny to me thatpeople would feel comfortable

(19:38):
enough to ask you stuff likethat.
Like you know.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
Well, we because we Again I was unaware of
financially Family advised us todo a GoFundMe campaign, and I
was blessed with so manybeautiful donations and support
to help get the house back whereit needed to be.
I eventually sold it and had to, and they just gave me some

(20:03):
space to take care of my son andI while Mike was in the
hospital, but at the same time Iwas running my business, and so
I feel like it was appropriatefor his mom to ask that question
.
It was a little backhanded andat the same time I can't
navigate somebody else's journeyin this.
If there's one thing that Iwish I would have had some more,

(20:25):
I was going to say love around.
I was so wrapped up into myjourney and the pain of it that
it wasn't until after Mikepassed that I really started to
look at what was this like forhis mom, his dad, his sisters.
I mean, I knew they weremourning and grieving and just
as surprised and trying to makesense out of it as I was.

(20:47):
But we were in suchdisagreement about how to handle
this journey that it justbecame this great divide, and
now I love them from a distance.
That's all I can do becausethere's zero communication.
But I never really slowed downlong enough or gave myself the

(21:08):
opportunity to go gosh.
What would this be like if Iwere the parent?
or the sister, and I'm sure thatwe're all asking similar
questions.
How did I not see this?
Where did I contribute to this?
You know?

Speaker 1 (21:23):
I think if we did that more often, it would take
away the division between inthose kinds of situations.
If you really said you knowwhat would this be like if I, if
this was my son, that this washappening to you know?
you really said you know whatwould this be like if I, if this
was my son, that this washappening to you know?
Or if they said, what wouldthis be like if this was my
husband, that this was you know,that this happened to it would
be able to show you some gracein that situation and think, god
, this, this is really hard, youknow, I can't even imagine.

(21:46):
Yeah, were you and Mike?
Um, before this happened, doyou feel like you were in a
place where you felt like yourmarriage was good?
You were like all of the thingsright.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yes, normal, healthy, busy parents.
We had a neat circle of friendsaround the club baseball team
and, yeah, we I mean I was happyand content and again, I think,
to the degree that he couldallow himself to be through
addiction and mental healthchallenges.
I think it's true he was verysleep deprived and there was

(22:19):
some.
I mean there was alcohol anddrugs involved.
Again, I was clueless.
It wasn't until I was movingout of the house that I would
find them, you know pills hiddeneverywhere and that changes who
you are.
So, within the addiction andwithin his own challenges, um,
he loved us the best way that heknew how.

(22:41):
I really have to believe thatyeah, wow, that's, that's crazy
could I share something else?

Speaker 1 (22:49):
I would love for you to no, you take it where you
want to.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
So now he's been gone a year.
This was right before COVID,literally months before kind of
the whole world shut down andthen after the divorce it took
me some time to kind of just getmy footing right.
My whole system was off.
I'm just ever vigilant oneverything, trying to run the
business, which I eventuallysold, and I've just started a

(23:16):
new job this month and I'm inthis new relationship now and
being able to trust and love notonly my fiance but also my
friends and myself and trustthat I'm in this new position
and that's going to be okay.
I really have to check myselfbecause my first response now is

(23:37):
like or um, it's justfascinating, and I I don't think
I was like that before, butthose responses, those trauma
responses, um, are reallyevident frequently, especially
because there have been so manynew things going on.
I think, like in the last fivemonths, got engaged, moved into

(23:58):
our home together my childhoodhome actually, we bought it from
my dad Sold my business,started a new job within I don't
know, four or five months, andso so many changes have been
happening that I've had controlover, and yet it's a lot.
And so I'm having to reallycheck myself and just make sure,
is this pace something I canhandle?
Where am I afraid and it's avisceral reaction, or where am I

(24:21):
telling myself that I need tobe afraid?
And how do I go in?
And I clean that up, which iswhat I do with clients, right, I
help people feel into theirbody somatically and help them
clear that and know how tonavigate that so that when it
shows up for themselves theydon't have to rely on someone
like me or professional at times.
They can really becomesoulfully self-reliant and get

(24:42):
through those times and I'm notwithout having to do that for
myself Sure A lot.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, because this is a huge thing.
I mean, this is everything andeverything that's wrapped up
into it, right?
It's not just the act of that,it's feeling like you're
betrayed, that you were, youknow, left, that you weren't
considered, that it was veryselfish, that you know resentful
of being left in the positionthat you were.
You know how, um, you mentionedthat he was, came home and was

(25:06):
being, uh, you know, verballyabusive to your son or or
otherwise, not appropriate, howlong.
So he was in the hospital fortwo months and then he came home
, or like what was the timelineand how did that?

Speaker 2 (25:18):
unfold TQ.
So trauma intensive care unit,not just intensive care unit,
but trauma intensive care unitfor a full month and those
people were phenomenal.
Then a month in a post acutefacility just for the physical
things, the tracheotomy, pt, OT,all those things.
I couldn't afford thiscombination for a post-acute
facility between the mentalhealth piece and the physical,

(25:39):
and so I was advised and it wasthe right thing to make sure
that he got physically okayAfter that.
And again, this is where I'mnot sure I made the right
decision.
I kind of relied on family andfriends to help me make this
decision.
We moved him into an apartmentand even a hotel before that
because people, including myself, were afraid for him to come
home and be with Ivan and I.

(25:59):
So that was another month ofthis back and forth every day to
check in on him, and it wasawful, and then eventually felt
safe enough after someoutpatient therapy to have him
come home.
And so really like three orfour months, and it was just one
day I hadn't even left theneighborhood and Ivan called me

(26:20):
and said come pick me up, Idon't want to be home with dad
anymore.
And I was turned around, Ihadn't been gone for two minutes
, came back, he got in the carand I said what happened and he
said give me a minute.
And got in the car and I saidwhat happened and he said give
me a minute.
Again he's 12 years old, 13years old.
And so I'm like, okay, what'sgoing on?
He goes something.
We had just gotten a puppy, aCOVID puppy, and some issue

(26:42):
happened between his dad inthose few minutes that I was
gone, and Ivan was so rattledwithin those minutes and I said,
buddy, can you tell me whathappened?
He said, mom, I can't, I'msorry, I don't remember.
And I knew that it was againtrauma.
He right in whatever happened,it was so triggering for him
that he couldn't remember.
That's what happens when we'rein a traumatic experience.

(27:04):
We go into fight, flight,freeze or fawn mode and he
completely checked out.
And there were other littleexamples that I witnessed and
was aware of some of theaggression that was starting to
appear and make it hard for Ivanto just be free to be himself.
And it had never been like thatbefore and I went to we were
going to the pet store and Icame home and a day or two later

(27:25):
and he was never left aloneagain Until a while after that,
when he was in an apartment,they got together again.
But I just knew I couldn't havehim be in a situation where he
felt unsafe emotionally,mentally or physically.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, Did he have a good relationship with Mike
prior to?

Speaker 2 (27:44):
Here's what's interesting.
Yes, they had a fantasticrelationship.
Baseball was their lifetogether.
Mike was a great dad is a greatdad relationship Baseball was
their life together.
Mike was a great dad is a greatdad and for these last several
years that Mike has really notbeen part of our life.
Ivan, as I think any kid woulddo, kind of changed how he told
the story about his dad.
No, we were never close.

(28:05):
No, he wasn't there for me andI think some of that's true when
he, when it started gettingclose to where he was making
some decisions about his lifeand wasn't letting it in on us.
But I just let Ivan have hisspace to separate himself from
his dad in the situation.
And now that Tom is in our lifeand we're in this new home

(28:25):
together which was not an easytask to encourage my son to say
that this was going to be anokay thing.
Like he was adam, he was notcoming with us and it got.
It got rough.
Now that we're together andhe's forming this relationship
with tom living in the same home, I'm witnessing him get to be
the preteen that he didn't getto be silly things, jumping the
pool and looking at us to makesure that we're watching.

(28:47):
You know um sitting down on thesofa with us and showing us
silly videos.
He wasn't doing a lot of thatwith us and talking about his
dad.
Tom has these records in thegarage, right and he said can I
go through them and pick some ofthem?
And he came in he said I hope Ididn't take too many.
Let me know if I took too many.
And four of them were mom.

(29:08):
This was dad's music.
This is who dad loves.
He just recently bought a Nikejacket, like a retro Nike jacket
that his dad loved.
He found it online and he'stalking about Mike Moore and I'm
so pleased to see that becausenow I think he gets to just be
himself and love on his dad theway that his dad was deserving
of and for whatever reason maybethrough my angst and

(29:29):
difficultness he didn't feellike he could do that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
Well, that's a tough thing to navigate at 12, you
know to be able to.
It's one, and here's where myhead goes.
It's one thing.
If your dad dies, regularcauses, right, the suicide is a
whole nother component of that.
That's huge.
And on top of that, having itnot actually be successful is
another component of that.
That's huge.
And on top of that, having itnot actually be successful is

(29:54):
another component of that, whereit's like, what does that look
like?
Like, what are the emotionsthat you process for that?
Because from the outside andI've never had anything like
this happen but from the outsideI feel like there would be
resentment, I would be mad, Iwould almost wish that it had
gone.
You know, because you'redealing with, yes, the loss of
all of that, but then all ofthis messy, everything else that

(30:15):
goes on top of that.
You know, especially as you'refinding out some of this shit
that he was keeping from you, oryou know, or not taking care of
you in the right way.
And again, I know that he'sdoing the best he can.
So I'm definitely not trying tolike, vilify him at all.
I, you know, I totally get allof that, but you know, from your
standpoint, what does that looklike?

Speaker 2 (30:32):
Well, for my son, I don't know.
Right Again to what we saidearlier can we really know what
anybody's journey is withoutreally knowing what's going on
in their head, their heart andtheir body?
Everyone who knows my kiddowill tell you he's a great young
man, he's an honor student,he's an athlete, he gets along
with, you know, two-year-olds onup through 90-year-olds.

(30:53):
He's very charismatic and he'sa normal now 17-year-old kid
navigating his life post-COVID,which, you know, that was weird
too, let alone even what we wentthrough as a family.
I'd have to leave him again.
Just I think nine months laterI'd have to go to work, have him
that was the year they weresitting in front of their
computer for school and trustthat this kid who's already been

(31:15):
through this traumaticexperience.
Now we've left our you know ourlarge five-bedroom home.
We're now in a two-bedroomlittle you know family place, an
Ahwatukee rental, and I'd haveto leave him every day behind
that, sitting in front of thatcomputer.

(31:36):
And I was a former educator,third grade teacher and
assistant principal, and I'd sayto him look, leave a hat off
your head, make sure the blindsare open so your teacher can see
you and have your, your cameraon the whole time.
Well, as the weeks went on, theblinds were closed, the hat was
on and eventually the screen wasoff and he's like mom, they
don't care.
Well, I couldn't help himnavigate that, but I was
watching my kid withdraw and Imean we saw professional help.

(32:00):
We both got a lot ofprofessional help him
reluctantly, and every once in awhile he's asked if he can go
see and talk to somebody again.
So my hope is is that just, youknow, he's this average, normal
, healthy kid with a skill setand a toolbox around how to kind
of navigate life's decisions inthe most soulful way that he
can.
And I also know that things aregoing to show up and I don't
really know at what point hemight have some aha moments or

(32:22):
those woken up moments that callfor him to be a different
version of himself.
I'm hoping that happens throughsome graceful experiences
instead of traumatic, difficultdecisions.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah, I think when our kiddos go through difficult
stuff like this, it really setsthe stage for them being able to
show up for other people too.
You know that being part of hisstory will be huge.
Right, he'll be able to takethat toolbox and, yes, it sucks
that at 12, he had to deal withall of that and navigate all of
that but how much better he willbe as an adult or a person of

(32:54):
any age, being able to reallyshine light on that for people
or share his story or be thatexample.
You know my middle daughter hashad lots of struggles, but I
look at it now that she's kindof on the other side of that a
little bit and she's such aninspiration to other people
because she's willing to bevulnerable and share her
struggles and share the messyparts of things you know.

(33:15):
So for him to be able to reallyprocess that as it keeps coming
up right, because it's not like, oh, I process that.
Now it's done, we're going toput that in a closet.
I'm sure there's things all thetime that come up that you're
listening to music that was hisdad's or listening to things
that remind, uh, him of his dad.
Uh, it brings up stuff in waves.
It's not like it's ever done.

(33:36):
You'll never be done kind ofhealing.
It never, is it never is fromany of the things that we go
through, which is interesting tome because, you know, we were
talking about kind of the work,and it's like, oh god, now I
have this next lesson and Idon't want to do this one, you
know, or?
But it's amazing how theuniverse just puts those lessons
in front of you, um, whetheryou're ready or not you know, it
knows when you are and so it'sjust going to keep putting them

(33:58):
in there.
Yeah, that's, that's absolutelyfascinating.
I have a, a 17 year old son,and as I'm listening to you
speak, I'm I'm having a hardtime, not not kind of.
What would that be like?
What does that feel like?
You know, because I look at my,my son's relationship with my
husband and it's, it's powerful,it's so cool to watch.

(34:20):
So to hear him talk about, youknow, the club baseball, and
that's your dad, that's your dad, you know, and so my heart
breaks for him to have to dealwith that.
And then, like you said, all ofthe different things of now.
At least he can kind of go backand do that early teenage stuff
with the jumping in the pooland looking to see if you're
watching, and that makes mehappy, because when that trauma

(34:40):
happens it does kind of shut youdown at that point.
And so for him to kind of beable to pick back up in that and
, you know, bond with Tom andhave that be something that can
kind of normalize a little bit Idon't know if I have time to
share this, please do.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
But while I was dating, it was really hard for
Ivan.
There were a handful of peoplethat I dated for several months,
and I'm an open book and I'malso someone who, if we care
enough for each other that we'regoing to be spending time
together, I want you to meet mykids and my inner circle, and so
Ivan would meet.

(35:16):
You know, he met a couple ofguys that I dated and it was
very hard for him.
There was this trauma bondbetween the two of us that I
don't think either of usrecognized until after the fact.
I remember pulling into thegarage one time in our little
rental, maybe two months afterwe were there, and I couldn't

(35:36):
get out of the car, I just had amoment.
I was depleted, deflated.
I can't remember even whathappened, but I just remember
leaning over the steering wheel,crying, and I must have been
there for five, maybe 10 minutesand Ivan, you know, had heard
me open the garage door and cameout and he opened the car door
and I just melted into my armsand he had to be that partner to

(35:59):
me In moments like that severaltimes, as I was for him.
And that's a very uniquecloseness that people experience
when you go through somethinglike this together.
And so he would say to me, likewhen Tom and I got engaged, he'd
say to me you're choosing Tomover me.
And I'm like it didn't evenmake sense to me, like how can

(36:24):
you even say that?
And it got so hard for us.
He was so adamant about comingand going as he pleased and not
maybe even thank you, I probablyI don't know if I can, I have
some.
He got so adamant about us notmoving in with each other and

(36:46):
part of the decision for Tom andI was financially too.
Again, I'm still rebuilding,yeah, and so grateful that we
have this now home together andwe can build.
We're both having thoseconversations about finances
that Mike and I hadn't had andit just feels phenomenal.
I lost my train of thought.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
You were talking about in the garage when he came
out and he was yeah, just that.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
so I, I, you know he had to be there for me like an
adult at times not that I everintentionally put that on, but
when, when I can't even get outof bed or I can't make breakfast
and there were those days, alot of those days um to then
switch and realize that hebecame that partner to me in
ways that I never realized untilI had a partner in my life who

(37:32):
wanted to care and take care ofme, and so I had to help and
unravel.
I know what I was going toshare.
This was a really hard decision.
I said to him when it got sougly if you choose not to come
and live with us and you thinkyou're going to come and go as
you please while still a minorin our home, then you're going
to have to legally emancipateyourself from me and when you

(37:55):
move out you're going to takeeverything with you.
I will tell you, ann, had thatactually happened, I don't know
how I would have survived.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
You're killing me.
I have a 17-year-old boy who Ijust all of the things that
you're saying.
It's I don't disagree with anyof the stuff that you're saying
right, but it's like that's sohard to do that as a mom, you
know.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
And I had to.
It got to that point where Ifelt like I had to be that
strong, like, okay, you think,basically you think you're the
boss and you think you're oldenough and mature enough and
savvy enough that you're goingto navigate the world and couch
surf on all of our friends'sofas, just because you think

(38:38):
it's going to be so awful inthis new situation with Tom and
I, who've chosen this as muchfor each other as for you.
So if you can't see throughthat, then you are going to have
to do this legally and Iseriously am so grateful that he
didn't choose that.
I might even say I kind ofcalled his bluff Maybe that's

(39:00):
not great language, but the riskin saying that to him, because
had he chose that, I reallydon't know how I would have
gotten up every day after that.
So again, I'm grateful.
Within days it was joyful.
He loves being in our home,which was grandpa's home before.
He loves having a pool.

(39:20):
He hadn't been inviting friendsover into our small little
place and now we have friendsover.
You know, quite frequently it'sbeen magical and yet some
really tough decisions andreally difficult conversations,
because we have had our ownexperience in this and have
again no clue what it's beenlike for each other, even though

(39:42):
we've been extraordinarilyclose and navigating it together
.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
Mm-hmm, what a bond for you and him like for each
other, even though we've beenextraordinarily close and
navigating it together.
What a bond for you and him.
You know, what a bond.
I look at the phases of thatfor him and, like you said, him
having to kind of fill in and bethat strong person for you and
then having Tom come into yourlife, it's another thing for him

(40:07):
.
So it's just kind of been onething after another.
So I love to hear that he'ssettled into that and
understands.
You know, I think kiddos resistcertain things and I do think
that we have to do that toughlove component of it.
We're not doing it this way.
This isn't the right way, andI'm the adult who has more years
on the planet and so I can seethat this isn't going to work
out, even though you're going tokick and scream.
So I'm very happy to hear thatthat's how that, you know, has

(40:29):
ended up or is progressing.
What do you feel about, youknow, when you look at Mike
being raised this strong wedon't talk about the things,
right, that's a big component ofstuff that I talk about because
I feel like, you know, thewomen in our society have been
raised to not have a voice, tonot speak up to, like all the
things, but men have been raisedto not show emotion, to be

(40:51):
strong to all of the things.
How are you raising Ivan to bedifferent so that he can have
the emotional intelligence andcan know that you get support
for things or we talk aboutthings or there's not, things
that are shameful when you'restruggling?
You know how do you, how do youdo?

Speaker 2 (41:06):
that well, I just I only know how to be me, and
because, professionally as muchas personally, I've I've really
chosen to listen to my innerlandscape and know how to
navigate it.
Um, my kids probably.
It probably drives them crazy.
I talk about everything and Ishare very openly with them, and
I and I want to look underneathwhat's being said, uh, and so

(41:30):
they don't know any different.
I will also say, though, thatthey're making their own choices
and navigating life the onlyway that they know how, um, and
aren't as open as I am.
Um, and maybe my daughter isbut um, but he has the skillset.
How's that?
I know that he has a skillsetbecause I get that feedback from
other people.
He is very compassionate, he'svery empathetic, and when

(41:53):
there's challenges, he's prettyindependent.
He'll take care of them himself, and he also knows he can
always come to me.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
I watched my son develop and I got sober eight
years ago and that's really kindof was a defining thing in my
life.
But to watch him, because I'mthe same way, I allow the mess
to be out in public.
I'm not hiding that, you know,not necessarily public but, yes,
now public, but in my house,where it's, I'm not hiding those
, those things that I'm learningand figuring out in front of my

(42:24):
kiddos and I feel like that'sbeen a gift, you know, even
though that was hard and it wasmessy and it was all the things.
I look at all three of my kidsnow and I am honored with the
emotional intelligence that theyhave that they would not have
had had I not been willing to dothose hard things in front of
them, had I not been willing toshow the underside and

(42:45):
understand and talk about thethings, and so I think us being
willing to do that with our kidsand then they also then in turn
can do that with their peers orwith other people that are in
their lives, I think doing thiswork is huge.
You know, him just beingwilling to come and speak with
you about things or beingcomfortable, or I hope we're
raising a better generation ofmen than our husbands and than

(43:08):
our brothers, and you know allof that, where they weren't
allowed as you said, theyweren't allowed to show the
emotion and show, I think,vulnerability emotionally.
Yeah, for me, vulnerability wasalways a weakness, you know,
prior to, you know, for megetting sober and kind of
starting to dive into that, andI look at my brothers, I look at

(43:31):
the you know, my sisters thatwere raised in our household or
people that were raised aroundthat time or whatever, and it
was very much like that, youknow it was.
We don't talk about things verymuch based in shame, you know,
very much based in what wouldpeople think and what would
people say.
You know, I always tell peopleI was raised to be a liar, you
know, because you hid thosethings from people you didn't

(43:53):
want other people to know.
And it's almost what fuels menow, because I just think we're
not doing that, you know, we'retalking about all the things and
I don't care if it's messy orwhatever, but we're not living
in shame when it comes to any ofthe stuff that we do.
Everyone's just doing the bestthat they can.
And in my household, ifeverybody woke up on the right
side of the grass, we call thata win, because things are hard

(44:18):
and things are messy and weshould be able to talk about
those things and share how wegot through that and what our
struggles were, and acknowledgeI couldn't get out of bed for a
while, right, because that's,that's the stuff that I think
I'm getting full body chills.
Just saying that.
That's the stuff that I thinkmakes people uncomfortable, you
know, is that level of grief,you know that level of the stuff

(44:40):
that you're processing is itmakes people pull away because
they don't want to get involvedin any of that mess and it's
like, no, that's what life is.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
It is life.
It is life Whether it's bigtrauma or little trauma and
everything in between.
We're all navigating thisjourney, I think, while we're
here and, in my opinion, to be abetter version of ourselves
before we leave, whether we aresigning up for that or not, and

(45:10):
we have to have those hardconversations and the tears and
the angry moments and theconfusion, because without that,
what are we doing?
We're on autopilot and, yeah,what's the point?
So you're right, I mean, Ithink for kids to have the
opportunity to, to be in anenvironment where they can,
they're free to be themselves,um, is a very powerful

(45:33):
opportunity.
Give them those moments to crywhen they're sad or be angry,
right um, and still have groundrules and boundaries, right, um,
and even some expectations, andalso know that they're going to
have their own journey, whetherit's one that we agree with or
not.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, and really supporting them through all of
that.
You know, I look at that fromthe standpoint of our generation
and how a lot of the men wereraised in that and it's we
didn't process emotion.
Don't cry, I'll give yousomething to cry about.
You know that whole mentalitywhich is let's not do that to
our men, let's not do that toour boys anymore.

(46:10):
You know, we know better, let'sdo better.
You know, my 17-year-old is theemotional intelligence and
communication that that youngman brings to the world.
I just think, watch out, youknow, because he is not afraid
to have the hard conversations,he's not afraid, you know,
because he is not afraid to havethe hard conversations, he's
not afraid to show emotions,he's not afraid to communicate

(46:30):
the stuff that he needs.
And I find that in my life he'sone of my biggest teachers, you
know, because he's willing tosay the things.
You know, he's always veryrespectful and we always have
great conversations.
But it blows my mind because Ilook back at me when I was 17
and my relationship with myparents and it was like we don't
talk about any of the things,none of the things.

(46:53):
I was raised very religious, andif you're doing it, we're not
talking about it, just all ofthat.
And I think what a shame.
And I look at people evennowadays who still come from
that kind of school of thoughtand that's part of why I'm
having the conversations.
I love it, you know, because Ihope that people hear that and

(47:14):
say, wow, that's crazy that youwent through the things and
you're willing to say the thingsabout, yeah, this was really
hard, or this is how I feel, orthis is how this made me feel,
instead of just yeah, I gotthrough it and and just glossing
over it.
It's like, no, I couldn't getout of bed, no, I was in the
trenches, no, it was messy andwe didn't navigate that well.
But also, you know, tellingyour story about when you're

(47:36):
you're, when Mike did that andyou're going in and getting Ivan
out, you know, and justprotecting that situation and
very mama bear and and it'scommendable to do that you know
you're you're.
What other choice did I have?

Speaker 2 (47:48):
right.
I mean, people say you were sostrong and and I, um, and I I
kind of get tired of hearingthat because I, I only knew what
I knew how to do and I didn'tdo it well and I did it messy
and I did it in front of people,uh and um again.
To go back to that that morningwaking up and and really being
encouraged and told to sharethis while it was happening, I

(48:13):
was prepared for it.
I had already gone through a lotof training and personal growth
.
I mean reading books andseminars and webinars and and
getting certified for myself andto help others, because the
greatest thing that we can dofor ourselves is learn to love
ourselves through everything andreally learn to what is going

(48:36):
on up in my thinking and how canI influence it so I'm more
graceful, more patient and moreloving to myself, because that's
where it starts and I can bemore loving, more patient and
more loving to myself, becausethat's where it starts and I can
be more loving and patient andgraceful with you.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
What you said right now is so huge, not just the
topic of what you went through,but just in everything, being
able to really love ourselvesand show ourselves grace.
And when you are able to dothat, you're able to then spread
that out.
And I think if people realizethat right, people that have so
much judgment it's because we'reso judgmental of ourselves as
well.
Right, it all starts withinternally, and then we

(49:12):
externalize that and then go dohorrible things to other people
because we're horrible toourselves.
So learning how to do all ofthat you know for yourself has
been huge.
Um, wow, wow.
Your story has completely blownme away.
Yeah, what does it feel like tobe?

(49:35):
One of the things that you saidin your questionnaire was being
the casualty of someone else'saddiction, and that's
fascinating to me because of myown story as well.
Right, I think my husband isthe casualty and my children are
the me.
Because of my own story as well, I think my husband is the
casualty and my children are thecasualty of my addiction.
Mine wasn't messy in a waywhere I was hiding anything.
I was the fun drunk, and so itdidn't maybe seem bad on the

(50:02):
outside for a lot of people.
Although I wasn't plugged, youknow I wasn't the parent to my
kids that they needed to me tobe and all of the things.
But what does that look likefrom your side when you say that
, that being the casualty ofsomeone else's addiction?

Speaker 2 (50:14):
I feel like we kind of already spoke to it.
For me that means not reallyknowing somebody else's journey.
We'll never know anybody else'sjourney.
We'll never know anybody else'sjourney Again, even somebody so
close to us.
So I had an idea of whataddiction might look like, but

(50:36):
more textbook, because I haven'thad an addiction and I so
desperately wanted to fix andhelp um and and heal Um and I.
That's not my job, right, andso, um, the version of Mike that
I got, I still have to.

(50:56):
I feel like I still have tolove all of who he is and trust
that.
You know, for whatever reason,he chose to drink and he chose
to use substances and thatimpacted the way in which life
moved on for us.
I was a partner in that and inthat and especially the way our

(51:21):
story kind of unfolded.
There's a lot of sadness tothat and I'm a casualty to that.
Yeah, I have even some peopleclose to me who, again, I don't
speak to any longer would saythat I played victim and I've
always been a victim and I havea hard time wrapping my head
around that because I've reallydone everything I can to be

(51:43):
resilient and to grow beyondthis and to fall in love again
and give myself permission tohave a life that I love and, and
so part of what I do withclients, when it's shadow work,
is taking like the word victimand looking to see how can I
really own that and not hatethat part of me.
Like if you were to call me avictim, like some people have, I
would like I would want todefend and say, no, I'm not a

(52:05):
victim, right, well, where inthat am me a victim, like some
people have?
I would like I would want todefend and say, no, I'm not a
victim, right, well, where inthat am I a victim?
And how can, how can I lovethat part of me?
Yeah, is really what happensfor me around that.
So, um, yeah, yeah, I thinkwe're all casualties to each
other's stories and narrativesyou're absolutely right.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
you're absolutely right.
I look at, I look at my journeyand just I felt like I was a
tornado, and so it wasn't justmy family it was like.
But it doesn't even have to beaddiction, it can be other
things that you're bringing tothe table, that you're a tornado
in other people's lives as well.
I'm curious how people wouldfeel like you were a victim in

(52:42):
that situation or how that, howthat happens, like, how do how
do people feel?

Speaker 2 (52:47):
like I think so.
It was my, uh, a family memberspecifically, who I haven't
spoken to really since all thishas gone down and, um, because I
chose to talk about it andwrite about it very openly on
social media and on our caringbridge page again people are
looking about it and write aboutit very openly on social media
and on our CaringBridge page.

(53:07):
Again, people are looking at itand reading what I wrote and
following my story and myjourney and making decisions
about me based on the story andtheir own experiences.
Right, so for some people Ishowed up as a victim.
For some people, I showed up assomeone who is very loving and

(53:30):
caring.
For others, I showed up likethat silly man who had a
judgment about me gettingengaged and the timeline all
wrong.
Everybody will make decisionsabout us based on their own
story and their own experiencesand so, yeah, I can't control
any of that.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
How do you not let that bother you?
Or do you, how do you work onnot letting that bother you,
because I think that's a reallybig thing.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Yeah, I will say that I'm ready for a quieter life
now.
For the last several years I'vebeen sharing my story, even
when I'm like, okay, I'm gettingready to start dating again.
And you know, I had always hadlong term relationships.
I never really dated and so Ikind of would poke fun at that.
I really had to get comfortablebeing in my physical body again

(54:17):
because part of losing mypartner and we had a beautiful
life together in all ways andmanners I questioned like why
wasn't I enough for him?
And now you know, evenintimately I'm by myself I
thought I'd go to the ends ofthe earth with him.
And so how can I fall in lovewith me and be okay with me so
that maybe someday I could be inrelationship with somebody else

(54:38):
?
And and I shared all that veryopenly.
And now that I'm on this in thisnext phase of my life, whatever
that means new job, I closed mybusiness, new relationship,
like really again in a matter ofseveral months I don't know
that I need to tell my storyanymore.

(54:58):
I just want my story to be mine, if that makes sense.
It does, because it almostfeels like now it would be
forced to share and and again, II have, I don't have a bunch of
followers, but I have a lot ofpeople who do follow me on
social media that I've nevereven met.
I think I don't know that Iwant that attention anymore or

(55:19):
and I don't think I ever reallyneeded it.
Um, it just was this snowballeffect and I left myself open to
people poking in and watchingand paying attention.
Again, I'm not pretending likeI was some big, you know
important person, but peoplehave cared and I love that they

(55:40):
care, and I really want to get alittle quieter and a little bit
smaller.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
I think that that's huge and I think also, you know
when you're called to dosomething.
Maybe you don't realize thefull picture of that.
You know so, like that voice istelling you you're going to
share throughout this right.
The universe is telling youyou're going to do this and
maybe you don't realize all ofthe things which is I'm putting
this out on display People aregoing to feel like they can give
me their opinions for thingsLike when you listen to the

(56:07):
universe as you know, hopefully,a lot of us do sometimes it
puts you in those positionswhere it's like, well, shit, I
didn't agree to that you know,because that's how I feel like
with this podcast.
It's like, okay, we're doing apodcast now, and when we first
started talking about it andgetting all the things finalized
, it's like, okay, I, yep, I, Ifeel like this is right In my

(56:30):
knowing.
I know that this is right, Iknow that I'm meant to make an
impact and that I'm meant tohave the conversations that are
are open and vulnerable and rawand honest, which I love.
But then they're like, okay,well then there's going to be
cameras.
And I'm like, no, no, no, welisten to podcasts, we don't
look at podcasts no no In 2025,we watch podcasts which I'm like
, oh shit, I don't want to dothat.
You know, but I'm like that'swhat the universe has me doing

(56:51):
or it's.
You know the comments thing.
I made an agreement with myteam that I'm not interested in
the comments.
Like I hope to know that thismakes a positive impact, but I'm
not interested in gettingtwisted up in that because that
to me takes away from what mywork is If I have somebody's
negative anything in the back ofmy head, or even the positive,
for that matter.

(57:11):
Or the positive, and you'reabsolutely right.
My nieces were over a couple ofdays ago and they didn't know
about the podcast, and so thenthey started opening some of the
videos and they were like, oh,and they started reading me
comments.
I'm like no, no, no, no, no,I'm like we don't do comments.
And they said, but these aregood and I'm like I don't care,
like I love that.
People resonate with that and Iwant to empower, you know,

(57:32):
women specifically, but also allpeople, to really have their
own voice and to feel open andall of the things I want to be
able to support and everything.
But if it takes away from mymessage, because I have those
little things, because,unfortunately, people feel
really bold in front of akeyboard when they don't have to
look you in the eyes and tellyou the things.

(57:53):
Also, you know you have to kindof earn a spot at my table for
me to really take your criticismor your feedback, and so, for
people that haven't earned aspot at my table, I just I can't
.
I can't get twisted up in thatand I encourage that for
everybody.
You know you shouldn't betaking advice and feedback and
criticisms from people that,either, haven't earned a spot at
your table or aren't going, youknow, aren't in the the world

(58:14):
that you want to get into.
You know, I think so many peoplelisten to the chatter and the
noise and to me it doesn'tmatter.
You know, for people that thinkyou should get married again,
you shouldn't get married againwhere is the right?
Who cares?
You're not the one that gets upand walks in my shoes every day
.
You know, like how do you evenexplain to someone the journey

(58:34):
that you're in?
It's so uniquely yours, youknow, and to have all of the
steps that you've taken to getto where you are.
Don't judge me.
You know I've been called totell my story because you know,
don't judge me.
I've been called to tell mystory because people will
benefit from that, people whohave lost a loved one to suicide

(58:55):
, who weren't able to make senseof it.
That's a huge thing and it'spowerful that you were willing
to put yourself out there andshare that.
But for people that feel likethey have a nasty comment, just
keep it to yourselves.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
And they don't, and they don't, and they don't, and,
unfortunately, most people havebeen really encouraging and
grateful and I get a lot of.
Even still, I get privatemessages and emails and texts
from people that are kind of youknow, three steps outside of my
sphere that said, hey, I justwant you to know I've been
following your journey and yeah,this is what it's meant for me,
and I shared it with my husband, who was suicidal and he went

(59:26):
and got help.
I mean, I, story after storylike that, yeah, um, and, and so
.
For that I'm grateful that I'vebeen able to be impactful, um
and and.
Even when somebody is turnedoff by us or angry with us,
that's still um the universe, Ithink, working through me to

(59:46):
give them an opportunity to takea look at themselves in their
lives.
Whether they do or not, sure, Idon't know.
Yeah, but that took a long timefor me to get okay with that.
That I I'm not always um a rolemodel in the way that I'd like
to see myself.
Sometimes it means that I haveto be an example, so someone has

(01:00:06):
the opportunity to look atthemselves and what they're
projecting on top of me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
Yeah, yeah, and then just working on not taking that
on yourself.
Yeah, right, because it's notyours to carry, right, excellent
, well, thank you, karen forcoming and spending time today
and for being willing to be sovulnerable.
Yeah, no, I really reallyappreciate it.
My may I suggest for this weekI do a may I suggest is going to
be to really be plugged in whenraising our kiddos, to be able

(01:00:34):
to feel comfortable to come andhave the conversation, so that
we're not raising our young onesto feel like they have to go it
alone.
You know that they can't, thatthey're being weak if they reach
out for help or if they bringup things and talk like we
should be willing to talk aboutanything.
You know there's not a singlething in my house that's off
limits and I encourage otherpeople to have that same

(01:00:55):
vulnerability and openness intheir own houses and you have to
be able to foster that withyour kiddos.
They're not going to do it foryou, so you have to be willing
to have the difficultconversations about all the
things.
So that's my May I Suggest forthis week.
That's our time for today.
If you have questions orsuggestions, send us an email.
Our email address is ladies atletsgetnakedpodcastcom, please

(01:01:19):
do all of the things to supportthe pod, which is follow, share,
rate and review.
Also, we would love for you tofollow us on Instagram.
Apparently, that's a wholething.
Catch you next time.
That's a wrap.
I'd love to help you getvulnerable.

(01:01:40):
Let's get naked.