What Happens When We Finally Speak Up?

Silence can be the most harmful family tradition. When painful truths go unspoken, relationships suffer, and dysfunction grows.

Mark and Jackie share their powerful story of family trauma from abandonment and betrayal to battles with mental health and addiction. Together, they show how honest conversations and vulnerability can lead to healing.

If your family struggles with unspoken pain, this episode offers hope and a path forward. Start with curiosity, and watch how breaking the silence can transform your relationships.

This podcast dives deep into real, raw topics—think vulnerability, triggers, and childhood trauma. But just so we're super clear: I’m not a licensed therapist, mental health professional, or anything close. I’m just a human sharing stories, lessons, and life hacks based on personal experience and a whole lot of curiosity.

So, while you might find some golden nuggets here, this is not therapy and should never replace professional mental health care. If you or someone you love is going through it, please—seriously—reach out to a licensed therapist or healthcare provider. You deserve the real deal.

Need Help Now?
Here are a few amazing resources:

· 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (U.S.): Call or text 988
· NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-NAMI (6264) or nami.org/help
· Therapy Directory: psychologytoday.com
· Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741

The opinions expressed on this show are ours and ours alone—no official organizations are responsible for what we say (or how much we overshare).

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
I'd love to help you get vulnerable.
Let's get naked.
Hey everyone, I'm Anne.
Welcome to the let's Get Nakedpodcast, where we dive deep into
vulnerability.
In this space, we'll explorewhat triggers us, uncover the
patterns holding us back anddiscover how to take charge of
our own growth.
If you're ready to dig in, bevulnerable and face the tough

(00:29):
stuff, then buckle up.
It's time to get naked.
This is going to be a tough one.
Today, you know what's beenquietly tearing families apart
for generations the belief thatsilence is safer than truth,
that pretending everything isfine is more important than
actually being fine.
So many families have masteredthe art of brushing things under

(00:52):
the rug like it's some sacredtradition.
We're taught not to rock theboat, not to bring up the past,
not to talk about the thingsthat actually hurt.
Just keep the peace.
Smile through the pain, stayquiet to avoid making anyone
uncomfortable.
But let's call that what itreally is Emotional cowardice

(01:13):
dressed up as family loyalty.
The idea that silence somehowkeeps the family strong is a lie
.
It doesn't protect anyone.
It protects the dysfunction.
It preserves cycles of shame,confusion and emotional distance
.
When someone is struggling withmental health, we look the
other way.

(01:33):
When someone is hurt, we saylet it go, don't make a scene.
When tension is obvious, wesweep it aside like it'll
disappear if we ignore it longenough.
But all that does is push thepain underground where it
festers.
That pain doesn't go away.
It grows roots, it becomespatterns, it gets passed down

(01:57):
generation after generationuntil someone finally says
enough.
Families that refuse to talkabout hard things don't avoid
damage, they cause it.
Unspoken resentments turn intowalls.
Unacknowledged traumas show upin how people parent, how they
communicate, how they handlestress.

(02:17):
Kids grow up feeling the weightof things no one ever explained
, carrying shame for things theydidn't cause and learning to
distrust their own emotions.
Adults repeat patterns.
They swore they wouldn'tbecause no one ever showed them
how to process what they werefeeling.
Silence doesn't make familystronger.

(02:37):
It just makes the pain quieteruntil it explodes or calcifies
into lifelong distance.
But here's the truth.
Families that are willing tohave honest, uncomfortable
conversations are the ones thatactually thrive.
When people feel safe to speakup, to ask questions, to name
what hurt them without beingshut down, that's where real

(03:00):
connection happens.
That's where healing starts.
Those families raise people whoaren't afraid of emotions.
That's where real connectionhappens.
That's where healing starts.
Those families raise people whoaren't afraid of emotions, who
can name what they feel, who aremore empathetic and resilient.
They model accountability, notperfection.
They show that love isn't aboutpretending everything is okay.
It's about standing in the messtogether and saying we'll

(03:27):
figure this out.
When families stop pretendingand start talking, they break
cycles.
They allow space forforgiveness, for boundaries, for
change.
They grow deeper relationships,not just surface-level holiday
interactions.
They become places wherevulnerability is met with care
instead of criticism.
And sure, those conversationsare hard, they can be messy,

(03:50):
awkward, emotional, butdiscomfort is not the enemy.
Discomfort is a sign thatsomething important is happening
, that the surface is crackingopen to make room for something
more honest, more human and morehealing.
Open to make room for somethingmore honest, more human and
more healing.
We need to stop romanticizingsilence.
We need to stop confusingavoidance with love.

(04:11):
Real love faces the truth.
Real love listens, apologizes,learns and grows.
It doesn't sweep things underthe rug.
It picks up the rug, looks atthe mess underneath and deals
with it.
Because we all deserve familieswhere we can be fully seen and
fully heard, not just toleratedwhen we're convenient.

(04:32):
We deserve homes where healingis more important than image and
we deserve the chance to buildsomething better than the
silence we inherited.
It's time to stop pretendingthat silence is golden when it's
really just heavy.
We are done with a rug full ofsecrets.
It's time to stop pretendingthat silence is golden when it's
really just heavy.
We are done with a rug full ofsecrets.
Let's start flipping it over.
Today I'm stripping it all offwith Mark and his daughter

(04:54):
Jackie.
They are here today to be braveenough to look under the rug to
talk about trauma that hasoccurred in their family and how
they've handled it to date andways to move forward towards
healing.
So welcome both of you to theshow.
I appreciate you both beinghere.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, I just want to say before we get started that
the feedback that I have gottenfrom outside people, people that
know me, people that don't knowme about the podcast has been
so positive and powerful thateveryone is just so ready for
these stories of the mess youknow Because we can all relate

(05:31):
to when we're listening to theseabout all the shit that
happened that nobody talks about.
You know, I talk to people allthe time and it's like, oh, we
don't talk about that in myfamily, and I understand that
because I also came from afamily you know, when I was
growing up, that if you justdon't talk about it, it's not
there.
But the problem is exactly whatI was reading at the beginning
it does fester and it does justcome out sideways in ways that

(05:56):
no one's proud of, you know.
And so being able to be sittingon this couch, brave enough and
willing to talk about all thegross shit right, I mean you
even telling your story, storymark and having Jackie be able
to listen to pieces that shemaybe didn't know about, will
help her have a betterunderstanding of who you are as
a person, not just her father,right, but as a man sitting here
next to her.
It allows her to be so proud ofyou for being able to share

(06:20):
that right.
Like I had a conversation withmy dad, and not to hijack this
whole thing, but I do just wantto really quickly say I had a
conversation with my dad.
And not to hijack this wholething, but I do just want to
really quickly say I had aconversation with my dad this
past weekend over Easter and heshared stuff with me about his
childhood.
I've never been more proud ofthat man in my life and he
literally has done everythingfor our family.
He was the rock of our family.
But to have him say how thataffected him when he had this

(06:43):
happen or that happen or youknow just feelings that he had
towards other people in hisfamily and things they didn't
talk about, it blew my mind.
You know, as I watch my husbanddo that in front of our
children same right, like yes,great, he can do all of these
great things that hold ourfamily together.
But being willing to bevulnerable and say this is what
hurt me, this is how thishappened, this is what I dealt

(07:04):
with growing up and say thethings right, we're not being
quiet anymore, like that's mymovement for stuff.
We're saying all the things atfull volume because we're not
protecting anybody anymore andit doesn't have to come from
this place of burning peopledown, but coming from a place of
speaking your truth, owningyour truth, saying your truth.

(07:25):
It gives other peoplepermission to be able to do that
for themselves as well.
So I just wanted to tell youguys so proud, so happy that
you're here, and with that we'regoing to just kind of turn it
over to Mark a little bit and,you know, let him share a little
bit about his story growing up,what goes into the ingredients
that make Mark the recipe thathe is, and then Jackie's going

(07:46):
to jump in and kind of tell someof her stuff as well.
And just also, I think it'sreally important to highlight
where you guys have failed withcommunication in your family,
where you have room forimprovement.
You know we do that all thetime at my house now, where
there's nothing that's offlimits.
That was not always the case,you know, with my daughters and
with everybody, there used to beall sorts of shit that was off
limits.
It was too uncomfortable, itwas too.

(08:07):
This, it was too that I willtell you after putting years
into this, there's literallynothing in my house that's off
limits.
It's always a surprise.
I'm never disappointed.
You know, keeps thingsinteresting, but the connections
that I have with them, gettingto do life with them in a way
that's not just surface levelbullshit, it's everything, it
means everything.
So I'm telling you the work isworth doing.

(08:28):
So with that, mark, I'm goingto turn it over to you and let
you kind of share a little bitabout who you are and how you
got here.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
Thanks, anne.
You know, and the lead is veryappropriate because I think that
is a very common issue withmyself and, I think, with a lot
of people, especially whenyou're dealing with multiple
siblings, dealing with largefamilies, as I have, my mom's,
one of 14, roman Catholic dad,school principal, very

(08:57):
well-educated family, I think.
Three of her brothers havedoctorates.
Every one of them has a collegedegree, most of them master's
degrees.
My grandfather on my dad's sidewas also a high school
principal.
My dad was a schoolteacher, momwas a schoolteacher and there
were very high expectations setfor me from a very young age,

(09:18):
both on the athletic side and onthe education side.
So I can remember my dad givingme a standardized math test
before I was even in school.
You know, age of five, sixyears old, I'm taking, you know,
seventh, eighth grade math test.
I'm doing calculus by the timeI'm in sixth, seventh grade,
type of thing.

(09:39):
So you know just wanting me tobe an overachiever in both
education and in sports, becausehim and my grandfather both
competed at sports at very highlevels as well.
So there was a lot of pressureput on me from a young age,
however, not a lot of goodguidance on how to get there.
It's just get there, you figureit out.
It's tough for a young man tohave those types of expectations

(10:02):
without any real guardrails ortrue guidance and goals of how
to get there.
As far as the we don't talkabout things, definitely a big
part of my growing up it waseverything was very silent,
everything was very keep itwithin the family, don't even

(10:26):
talk.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
What is that?

Speaker 3 (10:28):
I get it.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
That same when you say keep it within the family.
That sparked something for me,because that was very much like
we don't talk about that, wedon't want other people to know.
And I'm thinking, was therelike an award that we got if we
kept it like all crazy, liketucked in?
I don't remember seeing theaward, but we did that where it
was like don't say anything.
And even within the family,like within your immediate
family, like don't let grandmaknow, don't let so-and-so know.

(10:51):
And I'm thinking these arepeople we're supposed to be
doing life with.
How?
Why are we lying to people andlike, oh, we're not going to say
that, we're not going to saythat, like what a bunch of
bullshit I think even to thisday it's a competitive thing
when you have that many siblingswith my mother.
Okay, right, okay, that's a goodperspective.
Where?

Speaker 3 (11:08):
you have to be the perfect family and your shit
cannot stink to the rest of yourbrothers and sisters.
Because you're the best,because you are winning at life.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
That's an interesting perspective.
I appreciate you saying thatI'm going to have to unpack that
one a little bit, because thatlands You're absolutely right.
No, no, we've got it all thepicture that we send on the
Christmas card.
That's really what we're doingbehind the scenes as well.
It's not just a Christmas card,even though we all know that's
bullshit, but okay okay, so it'salways the perfect family,

(11:42):
right.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
Everybody's succeeding, everybody's so smart
, everybody's so smart,everybody's so great.
And I get that to this day,even though I don't really have
a relationship with my family,which we'll get into later.
My mother, even to this day, isin that competition stage with
her siblings, and we'll talkabout that a little bit.
At my father's funeral Iattended in October, which was a

(12:04):
surprise too, which we willtalk about.
But that was tough for mebecause I not only saw that,
heard that, I felt I had to live, that I had to fit those
expectations of being theperfect child, of excelling at
everything, at doing what I hadto do, with little or no

(12:26):
parental guidance there.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Did you pass that down?
And let me ask Jackie that,before you, let me ask you first
Do you think you passed thatdown?

Speaker 3 (12:34):
Oh yes.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Would you agree with that?

Speaker 2 (12:37):
Yeah, I'd agree.
Yeah, I mean, growing up theyhad expectations for us,
obviously, and thoseexpectations were clear, but
there wasn't much guidance onhow to reach those expectations.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
Isn't that funny For me, when I sit and talk to my
daughter specifically about theshit that I passed down to her,
I look, as you're doinginventory on kind of what
happened in your life and like,oh God, that was so fucked up.
And then I look and I go, I justpassed that right on down.
Right, didn't even realize,right, which is what's so cool
about knowing better, doingbetter, and the fact that we're

(13:13):
sitting here having thisconversation and that there are
people that can listen that go,I'm doing the same fucking thing
.
You know, when my brother cameon and he was talking about the
shit that he got passed downfrom my parents and he's like he
didn't even realize.
It was like an aha moment onthe couch of.
I'm doing the exact same thingto my son that I'm now, as an
adult, trying to heal frombecause it was so damaging to me

(13:34):
.
I'm handing the exact samething down because that behavior
is modeled to you and itdoesn't even occur to you.
It's like that's how you knowto do and so you just pass it
right on down.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
They fucked me up without me realizing it, and I'm
fucking my kids up without evenrealizing it.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
Do you know that they didn't realize that, though,
because that's the biggest partof it, I think, for me is being
able to realize and show themgrace in that whole situation,
because they're just doing thebest that they can too, and I
know that that's maybe a littlebit further down the line when
there's a lot of resentment andhurt feelings towards stuff, but
they didn't know any bettereither.
They knew less than we did,right, they had less knowledge

(14:11):
at their fingertips than we do.

Speaker 3 (14:13):
To a degree.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
No, all the way.
Think about this.
Think about your parents didn'thave the internet, so if they
were going to speak with someone, get knowledge about something,
they had to find someone thathad either done that or knew
someone that had done that andwas willing to talk about it.
And we know no one was willingto talk about it.
So literally you've got yourparents who are going in blind,

(14:36):
unless you think your parentsare complete psychopaths, which
you know.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
We'll get into that.
We'll get into that Maybe.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
I'm not suggesting either way.
I don't know the whole story,but I will say like for me that
was a big step in my healing isreally being able to show my
parents grace because theyfucked all sorts of stuff up
Right, and I'll say that totheir face and they and they'll
tell me and all of the differentthings.
But the cool thing about it ishaving the perspective from the
other side of it and I thinkthis conversation with you and

(15:05):
Jackie here, where you canunderstand her perspective or
she can understand yourperspective, when you start to
be able to gain that knowledgeby just going on this
exploration of your family andall of the gross stuff that
lives under the surface andbeing willing to talk about how
did that make you feel?
Where were you coming from inthis?
This is how I read this Likewhen you're able to do all of
that, if you want her to showyou grace, I will encourage you

(15:28):
to show your parents grace, notto them, you don't have to
fucking do that to them justinside of you.
Do you know what I mean?
Like just inside of you, ofyour mom had how many kids you
were one of how many?
Three, okay, so she had threekids.
That in a time where she didn'thave choices.
If you look at women back inthat time, I guarantee you your
mom didn't have choices.
Women didn't, right.

(15:49):
So think about no knowledgejust with the shit that she was
passed down, no choices rightNow she's, you know, however old
she is.
It's not like she's going to dothe work.
That's on our generations nowto do this work, but she was
literally just doing the bestthat she could.
Right, she has all of the samecomponents that you do with the
feelings and the hurt and thenot talking about shit and the

(16:14):
pushing stuff under the rug Igot you there.
I better come in and start doingsome exercises with this.
Okay, we're going to stoptalking right there.
Let's back to you, Mark.

Speaker 3 (16:25):
God, mark.
Well, so then, as you know, asI grow older and my my father
was a school teacher and he wasa coach and he was my coach and
he was my teacher all throughhigh school.
New dynamic there, right?
Oh, I mean incredibly roughfront of the class, taking Calc
one, taking Calc two in highschool.
You know, having to deal withthat type of pressure being on

(16:47):
the teams with him, you know, Iremember I came down in practice
one time, turned my anklearound backwards.
I knew it was broke.
He's like walk it off, you'refine, you know that type of
thing, right?
I mean, and I'm like, no, thisis broken.
He's like no, you're fine, Iget home, the thing's like a
softball, you know, finally wentto the hospital.
It was broke.
But you know those types ofthings.
It's like, you know, rub dirton it Doesn't work, right, but

(17:09):
he didn't know from thatgeneration.
Right, you're supposed to betough, you're supposed to walk
things off.
Um, which can I jump in?

Speaker 2 (17:16):
really fast there, cause that was just an aha
moment for me because they didthe exact same thing to me
anytime.
I broke a bone, yeah, like Ibroke my, broke my foot really
bad in high school, yeah, and Idrove myself home from where I
had broken it and I sit on thecouch and he goes it's not
broken, I know, it's fine, it'stotally fine.
He didn't in his defense.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
He doesn't even know which is crazy, which is why
it's so important to talk aboutit, because it's like he's
sitting here understanding theimpact of that on him, that his
dad was like, don't be a pussy,rub some dirt on it, we're gonna
fucking be fine.
And then he does the exact samething to you, even though he
knows I mean you know now whatthat did for you.
You can look at that and go god,that was so damaging to me as a

(17:58):
young boy, right like for me.
I look back and it's like whenI there's something to me about
looking back at aneight-year-old boy
Eight-year-old is what comes tomy head when I think about just
the innocence of a child goingback to that place you shouldn't
be dealing with.
Don't be a pussy.
You can't cry, don't show youremotions.
Think about how that sets youup for success in life, about,

(18:20):
like, don't pay attention toyour emotions.
Again, they didn't know.
They literally just werepassing down what they were
taught.
But I look at that as we knowmore and as we develop ourselves
emotionally and as we have allof this knowledge now, and I
think it's like putting a brickon your head energetically and
then you pass that brick on toher.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
Yeah, yeah, and you know the other thing was they
were both working or going toschool or doing whatever.
So you know the other thing wasthey were both working or going
to school or doing whatever.
So you know it's I'm left on myown to get ready in the morning
.
We didn't have a lot of moneyso I didn't wear the nicest
clothes, even though I went tovery expensive schools because
of where they taught and stufflike that.
So there was always a standardI had to keep up with.

(19:00):
It was very difficult for megrowing up of not being one of
the rich kids, even though I wasa popular kid, and not having
the right clothes and everythingelse.
So you know, to this day mywife gives me crap because I
have about 60 pairs of shoes,maybe more.
Now I have two thirds of mycloset is my clothes, plus the

(19:22):
office is full of my clothes.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
so you know, I love this, I love this admission
right now yes, I have.

Speaker 3 (19:31):
I have way too many clothes, I even have but isn't
that funny that that was.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
You know where that stemmed from I know where that
you know exactly what it stemmedfrom, so it's crazy, like the
the what that, what that kind ofan impact has on who you are as
a human being.
You're almost 60 old and itliterally is all the way through
.

Speaker 3 (19:47):
The people at the office are like I wonder what
shirt you're going to wear foryour birthday.
Come on, surprise us.
I always try to wear somethingdifferent to the office every
single day.
I always wear a nice suit.
So the one kid God bless him.
He just started and he says Iwas going to wear a suit but I
didn't have time to go get agood suit and I wasn't wearing
men's warehouse with you hereand I go.

(20:09):
You didn't even know me and hegoes.
Your reputation was before youand I wasn't walking in with a
men's warehouse suit.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
It's deep ingrained shit.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
It's bad, it's crazy, like when you're a kid and you
don't.
I understand.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
I was raised poor too .
You're trying to keep up withsomething that is not attainable
when you don't have any fuckingmoney.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
You know what I mean.
I know, but it's still it's.
I've got enough clothes for asmall country.
Now, okay, I mean I really doOkay.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
So how were your parents then growing up?
As far as you know, fosteringemotional intelligence.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
Nothing, oh nothing.
I mean it was void, Okay,Completely void.
It was void, Okay, Completelyvoid, and it was almost as if at
times, with my dad working twojobs, being a teacher and
everything, and it was a.
I'll spend time with you if youneed help in sports or in
school, but outside of that,we'll take the family vacations

(20:59):
to keep up the look at us.
We're the perfect little familyand I think they tried to be
good parents, but they didn'treally know how to really
develop that emotional side ofme, that understanding side of
me, that self-awareness that youneed that goal planning.

(21:19):
You know it's like you need tobe here, but we're not.
We don't know how to get thereand we don't know how to guide
you there, but just get thereand that's our expectation.

Speaker 1 (21:29):
But do you see, how can you look at that from the
outside?
So now we've talked a littlebit about the things that you've
passed down to Jackie and herbrother that you didn't know,
right, that you did the bestthat you could with what you had
, right?
Yeah, can you see how impactfulit would be if you were able to
do that work, to understandthat with your parents?

(21:50):
Right, because I don't believethat you think they're
psychopaths.
I believe that maybe they'vedone some things, because we'll
get there, I know, but here'sthe whole thing, that I want to
just point out to you, becauseI'm always going to play the
devil's advocate on this onebecause I know what it felt like
prior to giving my parentsgrace and I know what it feels
like after giving my parentsgrace and again, it doesn't
necessarily have to be to them,it's just internally inside of

(22:10):
me.
But when I did that, when I hadthis aha moment where I was
expecting my daughters to beable to show me grace for how I
fucked them up but I couldn'tshow my mom grace, that was a
powerful thing for me, right?
Because as soon as I was ableto like, switch that and do that
work, the floodgates openedwith my daughter showing me
grace, not because they saw meeven doing that.
It was almost like the universejust having this understanding

(22:33):
of like, okay, she's ready tosee the other side of that,
because you talk about okay, yes, they didn't have the knowledge
.
They gave you what they could.
They were working two jobs toput food on the table and
handing down the things thatthey could, that they knew to
hand down.
They didn't know the rest of it.
So if you can say, I believethat they did the best that they
could.
Inherently, I think everyonedoes the best that they can with

(22:55):
what they have.
Obviously, we know better If Ilook back at the Ann from 10
years ago.
Jesus Christ, she didn't knowbetter.
She didn't know better.
Right In that moment, I dideverything that I could to try
to be the best version of myselfthat I could.
Is it better now?
Absolutely.
I think if you're doing itright, you should be able to
look back over a year and go,wow, look at all this
improvements that I've made,because we're supposed to work

(23:16):
on ourselves in that way.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
But you know, showing your parents grace for that,
just a little nugget, I'm justplanting a little seed mark.
Totally over the last fiveyears I wish I had had the
insight, the owning my shit yeah, all of that, yeah, I wish I'd
had that back in my teens.
Instead, I get it in my 50s,right.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
But I got it.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
At least I got it before it's too late, yeah right
, I hope that I'm helping withthem.
We'll see, she'll tell you.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
We'll do an exit interview tomorrow.
We will.
That's an exit interview, yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
But then the childhood turns into a.
You know, I went to a schoolyou're well familiar with it's a
very you know at the timeprobably the best high school in
the country, one of the best.
Most of them went to Ivy Leaguethat you graduate from there.
So my mother went back toschool to get her master's

(24:12):
degree.
My sophomore year, the end ofmy sophomore year, she leaves
the house.
She just up and moves out,doesn't say goodbye, nothing,
just leaves the whole family.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Sophomore high school .

Speaker 3 (24:23):
Sophomore in high school, after 20 years of
marriage, gone for the summer.
Dad doesn't know why.
Ryan, that's about the onlyemotion I ever saw from the guy.
He was so upset.
Well, since she comes back theend of the summer, I think
nothing ever happened.
She said she had breast cancerand didn't want to die in front

(24:45):
of us and left.
I said okay, fuck, wait, that'sheavy Gets worse.
A lie she had met a man whileshe was going to school, moved
out to be with him, didn't finda job, decided she needed to
come back because she couldn'tafford to support herself.
By this time my dad was doneand he left.
So now I have to live with herand this Knowing this she

(25:11):
doesn't know, I know this Can'tcall her out on it.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Because we don't talk about things.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
We don't talk about things Push that shit right
under the rug.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
Okay, mom's got breast cancer.
No, she doesn't.

Speaker 3 (25:20):
So I'm working with my dad on the weekends, okay
working with my dad on theweekends and seeing him cry and
just devastated from this wholecrap, got to go home and watch
her drink and get angry.
And one night she sat therecalling him the devil because he
left and now he's got a newgirlfriend and I said you know
what?
I'm tired of your shit.

(25:40):
You need to shut the fuck up.
She threw the wine glass at me,I took 38 stitches in my leg
and shin, rushed me to thehospital.
Of course she asked me to lieto the doctors about what had
happened, which I did for herand you know, keeping the family
Sure, of course but took the 37stitches for her and said you
know, this is bullshit, I'mgoing to go live with dad for a

(26:02):
while.
And I did that for a while.
That didn't really work out.
So I moved back with her.
She you know financial problems, yada, yada, everything else.
So I went to work, support herdon't go to college right away
to stay home and take care ofmom About at the age of 20 or so

(26:22):
she met a new guy and wants meout of the house, even though I
had been taking care of her forseveral years.
So is what it is.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
Who about.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
Fortunate enough, at 21, I meet my wife at the time.
Well, excuse me.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
She's still your wife , I'm pretty sure.
Wait a minute.

Speaker 3 (26:41):
She's my Sorry, amy, it's like I like to tell her
she's my first wife, first andonly wife.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
But this June 30th will be 32 years of marriage,
happy marriage.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, best friend, I'm married so far over my head
it's ridiculous we all know,yeah, we know, we know, I know
everybody that's saying she isthe most beautiful woman ever.

Speaker 3 (27:04):
She's the best yeah, started dating her she was 16, I
was 21, it it happensscandalous scandalous.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Didn't talk about that until just now I'm like why
do you think I always datedolder, right?

Speaker 3 (27:15):
she told me she was 18.
We met funny story.
You know my buddy's cruisingcentral.
See the chicks pull them over,get their numbers go out on a
date.
She's on her fall break.
Whatever thought she was 18.
Our first first movie was FatalAttraction our first date.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
Oh God, I love that.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Yeah, I know, and she went home and told her mom that
night after our first date.
That is the man I'm marrying.
Okay, so that was it.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (27:41):
We've been together ever since, so, except for a
couple times, I broke up withher like a freaking idiot.
I don't know why, but I did.
I don't know why, but I did,but we ended up together and I
couldn't be happier.
She's everything.
I rock everything.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
Does she?
Do you get along with your?
You don't get along with yourmom now.

Speaker 3 (27:59):
So we'll get to that.
Okay, a little, all right, Iguess we'll probably.
This is a good way to go.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
I would segue it only because we only have an hour
show.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yeah, so then moved in with my, my sister, help her
out.
She has three boys.
Her husband gets murdered, he'sa piece of you know drug user.
Everything else gets murderedby a gang, et cetera.
Um so then fast forward.
My sister calls me from Dallas,says hey, she's bawling.

(28:30):
She says hey, she's bawling.
She says did you know that ournephew's daughter is accusing
him of molestation?

Speaker 1 (28:39):
Okay, so now I want to get this straight for a
second.
This is my sister's son, yoursister's son, so your nephew.
My nephew how old was he atthat time?

Speaker 3 (28:46):
He is about 23 at this time.
He's got a three-year-olddaughter.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
And how old was the person accusing?

Speaker 3 (28:53):
him Three years old.
Oh, it's his own daughter.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
Oh Well, and that happens.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
We've learned on the podcast that happens all too
often, and his ex-wife wasfiling charges.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (29:05):
So we decided did he do something to Jacqueline?
And we asked Jacqueline and shewas 12 at the time and she
broke down and it did happen.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
You didn't say anything, Jackie, until they
came and asked you yeah, Likethe way that it all.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
I don't mean that in a, so don't take that the way
that I said it, because I havemy own shit and like it's an
interesting how stuff comes outbut I find that fascinating that
that was a question that camethis way instead of you telling

(29:42):
them that way.
Okay, yeah, I, I vividlyremember that day.
So the it all happened when, uh, between the ages of five and
seven, okay, um, and I remembermy cousins uh, well, the middle
cousin of the three boys fromthat sister, um, him and his
wife had come over to talk aboutit um, and my mom they were my
dad.
My cousin and his wife wereoutside and my mom asked me and
I didn't even say anything, Ijust broke down crying, and I

(30:03):
just remember her running to theback door and just pounding on
the door, um, for my dad to comeinside.
And that was a crazy day initself.
And that was the first timewhere I'm like, okay, we're,
we're not talking about this,because I was due to go to a
friend's house that night and mymom was like I was sobbing and
she was washing my face off inthe sink of like the tears, and

(30:28):
she was like you're not going totalk to her about this at all
while you're over there.
She was like you're not goingto talk to her about this at all
while you're over there.
She was like you need to keepit to yourself.
She was like we're not going totalk about this.
She was like, especially sincewe're going to be filing charges
and all of this stuff.
And so from that moment on, wejust we kept it to our immediate
family.
But, yeah, that was the firsttime I ever told anyone about.

(30:50):
It was to my mom, um, I almosttold um, a best friend of mine
growing up.
Um, actually a couple years,two, three years prior to me
telling my mom, um, andsomething held me back and that
the main thing was his voice inthe back of my head saying don't
tell anybody.
Yeah, you know, um, but thenfrom there, um, you can kind of

(31:15):
take it over, because you guyshad gone to go over to his house
, right, yeah, so to murder himor yes?

Speaker 3 (31:23):
okay, no, no, I listen, I'm not kidding, I have
the same shit that has happenedin my family in different you
know, different areas, and thatis the first thing that comes to
mind, or not.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
I say murder all the time on this.

Speaker 3 (31:32):
I don't know if that's the right thing or not um
had my uh, his brother with himand, by the way, he had
molested his own brother when hewas younger.
The guy was a real sick sob.
I actually paid um ten thousanddollars in attorney fees
because he had sex with twounderage girls and I paid ten
thousand dollars for an attorneyto keep this SOB out of jail.

(31:52):
If I had known I would neverhave.
Kid was just a wreck.
He had two girls pregnant outof wedlock within a month of
each other after he left hisfirst wife.
He's just a real sexualpredator piece of crap.
So we went over to his house.
There may or may not have beena gun involved.
He didn't answer the door.
It was going to look like anaccident if something happened.

(32:14):
Um went to my sister's house.
He showed up there and, uh,talked to him and he's I don't
remember, I don't remember typeof stuff right, had my phone on
the table recording.
He didn't understand that.
I got up and I went over to himand I said if you ever touch my
daughter again, I will kill youyeah and I smacked him across

(32:36):
the face and I said don't evenget up, it's the last thing
you'll do yeah, I walked out.
Yeah, um press charges.
They 100 believed it was enoughto um prosecute um he's in jail
right now, right?
He's 51, 51 years withoutparole.
Yeah, that's they locked thejury through the book at him.

(32:58):
Um, during the trial, it wasunbelievable.
Um, my mother, my oldest sister, my middle sister, got up on
the stand and made us the badguys.
We were the bad guys.
I was doing it to get even withhim, which was a joke because

(33:22):
he was.
I got him a job at where I wasworking.
He got fired for fraud yeah, itdoesn't um but for somehow that
was supposed to have been megetting, even because he got
fired for fraud, even though Igot three promotions after that
what does that feel like?

Speaker 1 (33:36):
having having your well and god?
That's a really complicateddynamic, because you understand
the love that you have for yourkids and if someone came and
accused your kid of somethingright like where does what does
that even look like right forwho you defend and whose side
you take?
And all of that.
Like I'm not justifyinganyone's behavior on anything,
I'm just coming from a place ofcuriosity.
That's a family ender, what,what, what you guys are talking

(33:59):
about, that's a.
We don't go back from that,like I always am going to come
from the side of okay, let'swork it out, let's whatever.

Speaker 3 (34:06):
If you never talk to him again, I'm on your side,
just so you know, like that's no, yeah, and, and I took the
stand in the trial.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Um, my sister flew in from dallas and took the stand,
which was outrageous becauseshe didn't really have any
inside information about whatwas going on, about who she was,
about any of this um she triedto sit there and at the time so
I was about 13 once the trialactually happened um, and at

(34:35):
that point his father wasactually paying for me to do um
local community theater, andthey tried sitting there and
they were like, well, she acts,she acts, so obviously she's
acting and she's making this up,that's hurtful, yeah, and it's
like then she used a story of meon the stand from when I it was
a few years prior and thatparticular cousin, um, had we

(34:57):
had given him one of our catsand um, he got rid of the cat
and gave it to some randomperson instead of offering to
give it back to us, and I criedas a nine-year-old kid of course
you're gonnasob when you just had a family
member get rid of one of yourfavorite animals and so she
tried to use that against me onthe stand and call me over
dramatic.
So it was like they werereaching for stuff well, here's,

(35:19):
here's what I'll say.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
This screams out to me.
They're hurt and they'relashing out.
Right, because that wholesaying about hurt people hurt
people.
They don't even know how to toprocess what was brought to
front door, especially from aplace where you're a family that
doesn't talk about shit.
Right Now, you're coming outwith this facts and are willing
to speak about it, becausethat's the right thing to do,
right.

(35:41):
Bringing this up, taking thisto trial, that's the right thing
to do, right.
That's that, in and of itself,what that allows for other
people, so that when, whenpeople go to their parents or to
other people and speak theirtruth, we believe them, we don't
question that shit.
Right, like that's where weneed to be as a society.
Where it isn't, oh, we're goingto make you, you know the the

(36:04):
person who then we're going tovictimize again by not believing
what you say.
It's's outrageous.
You know, if we teach ourdaughters nothing, it's when,
when the perpetrator says don'ttell, or whatever we need to
teach our children.
You speak up.
You speak up at full volumebecause you can heal the shit
that happened, right, it's theshame that you carry around
after that.

(36:24):
Think about that.
Think about that, Jackie forlike, okay, yes, this fucked up
thing happened, which isdisgusting, but think about how
much of a bigger impact carryingthat shame around, not being
able to go to your parents andsay this motherfucker did this
to me right, which, in whichcase, will get you help, you
know, to heal from that, willsupport you, will believe you

(36:46):
right.
That, to me, is where we haveto make big changes.
For stuff we can't have itwhere we're not talking about it
where it's oh, we can't bringthat.
We're supposed to have ourparents and our family be our
defenders.
And it's unfortunate that yoursisters and your mom went the
way that they did.
As far as I'm concerned, enjoyyour lives Like you can offer

(37:08):
forgiveness to them for you,which I highly encourage you to
do if you haven't done that,because if not, you're carrying
that shit around, not them, andjust they did the best that they
could in that situation.
It's unfortunate that it turnedout the way that it did and
it's unfortunate that their bestis pretty basic bitch shit,
right, but that's their bestright.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
And then at the sentencing, I chose not to read
my statement.
I gave the statement to thejudge for sentencing.
I really wanted to take the highroad.
In the whole thing I saidnothing derogatory or negative
on the stand.
I wasn't happy when he wasconvicted.
We sat there very stoic, didnot want to celebrate any of it.

(37:51):
We really wanted to just letthem know this was a hard thing.
Yeah, because it goes back tothe keep it in the family of.
They thought I should have notprosecuted because we needed to
keep it within the family.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
Of course, and he would have learned his lesson.
Yeah, we don't want to bringattention to that.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
No, we're not doing that, you're going away so that
you don't victimize other people, which would have happened.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
Of course that's a pattern.

Speaker 3 (38:16):
That's a pattern when you have it's a sick human
being it really is that is notgoing to accept help or look for
help when he can't admit whathe has done.
The first step is admitting youhave a problem, right, and
that's a problem what he had.
So my father got up there,though, during the victim

(38:37):
statement him and his wife atthe time and defended him and
again made us look like we wereunduly prosecuting.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
God, that's fucking terrible.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
It was horrible, so I made the decision at that time.
I did not need that in my life.
So you talk about giving themforgiveness for what they've
done and everything else Not forthem.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
For you yes.

Speaker 3 (38:59):
For you.
For me, I'm as at peace as Icould be with it right, so at
peace with it that I found outthat my father had died last
year sometime and they werehaving the ceremony up in Kansas
to bury him next to mygrandparents in October.
I said, you know what?

(39:21):
I'm going to reach out to mysister, get the details and I'm
going to show up for his funeral.
So I made peace with that partof it Least I could do.
Well, that caused some problemswith my wife.
No, I bet I've met amy.
Yeah, so, um, you know, I wasat the point where I was willing

(39:41):
to look past everything and atleast give them the grace.
Yeah, not happening with amy.
Amy left me that night yeah, Ibelieve that.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
No, she amy so hurt in that situation.
How could you not be as a motherwhen, in that situation, not
only, not only is your daughterin a situation where you
couldn't, didn't defend herbecause she didn't know.
Like, as a mom, when yourdaughter comes and brings that
shit to your front door, it'sliterally the most helpless
feeling on the planet, like, andyou there's nothing you can do
to go back and fix that.

(40:15):
To go back like it literally isthe worst possible feeling and
then to have not only no supportfrom your family, but then also
you guys are the villains inthat story because you wanted to
make something right, likeshe's not wrong no, she's not
wrong, she's not right.

Speaker 3 (40:31):
And I, but I you know , I told, I told you know, I
asked jacklyn if it was okayyeah, she's like, yeah, go ahead
, reach out.
And my older sister, no,definitely not, because she
didn't want to talk to me anywayI know she would rather see me
dead than anything.
That's fine yep, my mothermisses me.
Yeah, her boy, her youngest,yeah, um, but she's still a

(40:55):
crazy woman, but she's still mymother she's still.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
She's still your mom.
You know there's something tobe said for that relationship.
I can't imagine that this ispart of for me doing the work
that I'm doing is I can see allof the perspectives right.
I see amy's perspective I seejackie's perspective.
I see your perspective.
I see your mom's perspective.
I look at my son right now andI think I can't imagine like it

(41:17):
would rip my soul out to nothave a relationship with him in
any capacity.
Like so I understand that right, like I understand that from
the mom and for you as the sonwanting to actually foster
something, that's there, right.

Speaker 3 (41:32):
Yeah, and it's funny because this emotion is coming
more from my wife yeah, and herthan from the loss of my family
yeah, that's where it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Right, Because you know losing that relationship is
less important than losing mywife and my daughter.
Yeah, you know it's insane, butit is what it is.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
There's so much hurt to go around in that situation.
I mean it's so multi-layered,for how all of that went down
Right.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
Well, and I think even too, for my parents they
didn't realize how much itaffected me, especially in my
adulthood.
My parents, they didn't realizehow much it affected me,
especially in my adulthood,because I was state mandated to
go to therapy and the state paidfor it, which was great and
everything.
But my mom had a really hardtime finding me a therapist,

(42:21):
because a lot of therapistsdidn't want to deal with a child
that was actively going througha trial which was kind of crazy
to me.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
Right, you would think that you would want to
support that, but I understand,like liability and I get it yeah
liability wise.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
I totally understood that, um, but I think, with his
family reaching back out, theymainly reached back out and were
able to reach back out when hisfather died because my brother
had been in contact with them.
Um and my brother was kept outof the dark from a lot of the
situation.
He wasn't at the trial at all,he was in college at the time,

(42:57):
so he didn't know Um and he.
He also didn't understand howit affected my childhood, um,
and how my childhood was vastlydifferent than what his was.
So I don't blame him for that.
But he also didn't see the factthat my grandmother was sitting
there as I was on the stand foran hour and a half she was

(43:18):
laughing at me.
She was making comments to thepoint where the judge had to
threaten to throw her out of thecourtroom multiple times.
But when his family had reachedback out, he had asked me if I
wanted to speak with my aunt,particularly the one that lives
in Texas, and because her and Ihad a really close relationship
and her testifying was a blindside, we had no idea.

(43:42):
She told me that she supportedme from the beginning, that
she'd be there for me, and thenshe turns and testifies against
me um, and so I think it was.
That was one of the moments thatlike triggered for me to have
abandonment issues that I'mstill unpacking and just like
digging through to this day,yeah, um, and so he had asked me

(44:03):
if I wanted to talk to them andI was like you know what?
I was like they've missed everysingle important life event in
my life.
They don't know who I am.
They've missed out on over halfof my life.
At this point, like why would Iallow someone in who's caused
me so much hurt and caused me somuch mental damage?
Why would I let them back in?
Why would I ever let them comeback into my life and wreak

(44:24):
havoc again?
Because we know they haven'tchanged.
And I mean, even my brothertalked to me after the funeral
and he had talked to mygrandmother and both of my aunts
and he was like you're fuckingcrazy.
He's like they're still crazyto this day.
And I was like, yeah, I waslike now you're finally
realizing what I had to endureand all the crazy bullshit they
were throwing at me.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
Well, and being able to put a period at the end of it
and say this isn't going to bea thing, like it's unfortunate,
mark, that you're not going tohave that relationship.
But if Amy says this is not a,this is an either, or like I'm
either in or I'm out, and I'mthis is a deal breaker for me,
which I I stand behind her inthat situation.
I totally understand thatthere's so much hurt and

(45:06):
multi-layered in this wholesituation.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Normally I'm not the the fan of like cutting people
off and whatever, but I alsounderstand that, like you can
choose, have a chosen family aswell.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
You know you can have the people that are important,
that ride hard for you now thatyou don't have to always have
this conflict for because lifeis too fucking short, right?
So what is the lesson thatwe're meant to learn in that is
where I come from which is it'sokay that that's not those
people.
You can say you did the bestthat you could.
This wasn't a good situationfor anybody, right?
This isn't a good situation foryour mom, for your sisters.
Can you imagine if somebody hadcome and said that about your

(45:39):
son and then what the fuck wouldyou do?
Like you can understand thatwas where that was and we're
moving on.
You know you can do that andallow them to just do you stay
in your family and shore thingsup with your family.
What have you done, jackie, asfar as just kind of like working

(46:03):
through this, therapy-wise orotherwise, or because when
something like that happens,that young, I don't think a lot
of people can, that don'tunderstand that can get their
heads around how that reallyspiders into every part of your
life, your, your self-worth,your like you're talking about
abandonment and rejection likeyou got about as fucked up as it

(46:24):
gets, honestly because of the,because of the trial and the
people not supporting you andthen, you know, again, making
you the villain in that story.
When you're a child like I,can't even I.
I can feel Amy's anger fromhere and and Amy, you're right,
so that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Yeah, I think, um, I didn't start realizing how much
of an effect it had on me untilI got into college and in my
twenties and I finally got outof the house.
I think one of the turningpoints for me to actually start
talking about it to other peopleoutside of my family.
So I didn't talk about it tolike a friend even until I was

(47:00):
about 16, 17.
So the trial ended when I wasabout 13.
So I mean, like three, fouryears later I didn't start
talking about it and it all cameup because I had a friend, um,
whose mom did tarot cardreadings and my past card.
The first word that popped upwith it was abuse, um, and then
abandonment after it and I juststopped um and it just released

(47:23):
it.
But, um, within my 20s I mean,obviously I'm still in my 20s,
but my like early 20s andgetting into college and stuff I
wreaked havoc on my life in mycollege years, made a lot of bad
decisions.
I hurt my family a lot throughthat, but I think a lot of that

(47:45):
stemmed from the fact of theydidn't understand my mental
health issues.
But I think a lot of thatstemmed from the fact of they
didn't understand my mentalhealth issues.
They didn't realize that it hadstemmed from the trial and from
all of that trauma.
And I remember the first time Iever realized that it was
abandonment issues that I wasdealing with.
I had told my mom and I waslike, hey, I think I have

(48:05):
abandonment issues.
Like my therapist and I werekind of talking about it and my
mom's like what are you talkingabout?
You don I have abandonmentissues.
Like my therapist and I werekind of talking about it and my
mom's like what are you talkingabout?
You don't have abandonmentissues.
Like your parents are stilltogether, like all of this stuff
.
And I was like, no, like thinkabout it.
Like actually, like I lost myentire family, like my mom's
side of the family is small,very small in comparison to the

(48:31):
side of the family that with hisside, and so I just felt like I
lost all of it and I didn'trealize that.
And halfway through college forme it was a little more than
halfway, it was this summer,going to my senior year of
college Some issues arised withmy brother and he left my life
for a while.
I also left his, and thattriggered my abandonment issues.
I also was seeing a guy at thetime and he left my life and I

(48:57):
felt like I didn't have anyoneand from that moment I almost
took my own life, and that wasone of the hardest things to
have to explain to my parents.
And that was one of the hardestthings to have to explain to my
parents like, hey, like I'm notokay, like all of this trauma
is now coming up for me and I'mhaving to work through it and I
don't know how to, and I didn'tknow how to.

(49:19):
And so I was admitted to themental hospital and I think that
was kind of the turning pointfor our family in terms of, hey,
maybe we should take mentalhealth seriously, maybe maybe we
should.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
This isn't just a buzzword.
This isn't just a buzzword thatthey're talking about, right,
yeah?

Speaker 2 (49:35):
and um.
I think, from that moment on um, I've been very grateful for my
parents and um how they've, youknow, accepted my mental health
issues and um are moreunderstanding of, you know,
accepted my mental health issuesand um are more understanding
of, you know, all of the all ofthe labels that they have
decided to put on me, as they dowithin the mental health

(49:56):
industry.
Um, and I think it's still kindof hard for them to to
understand that it's a dailybattle, um, even within my
relationship with them and myrelationship, even with my
partner.
I'm so grateful to have such apatient partner as I'm like
unpacking these abandonmentissues even within our
relationship.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
They're everywhere.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
They're everywhere.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
They literally seep into everything, which is, you
know, when things trigger, youget curious about where they're
coming from.
Because if you just keeppushing that stuff down right so
like what you're talking about,of having a patient partner or
having your parents be willingto speak with you about stuff
you have to show your parentsgrace, because they were raised
in a generation where it wasdon't be a pussy, we're not
going to deal with emotions,right?

(50:39):
So so your mom and I used to betwins.
I happen to have come to thedark side where I now allow
myself to be vulnerable andemotional.
She's probably disappointed inme.
Let's be honest, Like JesusChrist.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
But it doesn't matter .

Speaker 1 (50:55):
Your mom and I used to twin in that, because I was
raised the same way thatemotions are vulnerability and
that that's a weakness and likeall of the things.
So you have parents that raisedyou who started from that place
.
We didn't talk about stuff.
To now we talk about all thethings.
Right, your dad is sitting hereon this couch, brave enough to
have these conversations whileyou talk about this stuff, which

(51:20):
kudos, kudos to both of youguys, because it's big stuff,
but I think so much good comesfrom that because you can really
get to know the effect thatthis had, the effect that this
had on your dad of losing hisentire family.
Right, I mean, yes, you guysare this family, but your
siblings and your parents,that's your family too.
Right, I mean, it's a differentlayer of that.
He doesn't have any of thatanymore.

(51:42):
Right, because, which is, Ihave full body goosebumps right
now, which is completely fair tosay that, and I don't disagree
with your choice, but I stillunderstand that that's a huge
loss and grieving that.
Right, I mean, so there's justthere's so many different layers
, so for them to even be at thispoint of let's talk about these
things help me understand andI've done that with my daughters

(52:04):
too, of like, help meunderstand, understand, because
I didn't deal with mental health.
I've woken up on the right sideof the bed every day my entire
life, and isn't this great, youknow.
So when my daughters are likeI'm fucking depressed, I can't
get out of bed, I'm like, well,they just do it, just get out of
bed.
They're like I don't understand, but that's the generation that
your parents and I come from islike, well, shake it off, you

(52:25):
know, and so for.
For us that grew up in thatgeneration, we're, we're at a
loss because we don't understand.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
You know some of that kind of stuff and I think with
that too, I didn't start that.
I've always given my parentsgrace when it comes to that
situation because I couldn'timagine being in their shoes, um
.
But I think the real pivotalmoment of when I saw my dad
struggling was with um hisdrinking.
It was hard for me to have towatch um, as it was during COVID

(52:55):
, and I'll let him expand moreon that but I was so angry at
him for doing that, and wastinghis life away is what it looked
like to me.
But I also had to understandthat he was fighting his own
demons that he didn't want tovoice to my mom and I.
And that was hard for mebecause I was voicing my own
demons, but I felt like I didn'tgive him the space to also do

(53:19):
that.
Um, but I don't.
I also don't know where thedrinking stemmed from.
But for me, like that's what Isaw, I saw a man who was
suffering.
Yeah, I saw a man who, who hadlost his whole family and I
couldn't help but feel guiltyfor that Right In a way.
Um, I had so much guilt of it,felt like I ripped his family
away from him, it felt like, butat the same time I also had

(53:42):
like survivor's guilt.
Yes, you know, there's not alot of women out there who get
the opportunity to have theirabuser locked in jail for 52
fucking years.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Yeah, that's a big deal, that's a really big deal.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
And later on I had found out about him doing it to
younger women and my dad payingfor that attorney and stuff and
I'm like God, what a fuckingslap in the face.
Yeah, you know how long haveyou been sober Mark.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
October.
I've got my prison tat up hereactually with the date October
21st will be five years.
Good for you, and I think youknow it's kind of weird because
I think corresponding with hermental health growth acceptance
has corresponded with mine froma standpoint of I am a

(54:30):
completely different person thanI was five years ago.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
I mean in every way, shape and form.

Speaker 3 (54:35):
I believe that this is going to get real emotional
Because Amy the black soul, theblack soul.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
I love it.
She's going to stick with thatnickname.
I love it.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
I love it she's going to stick with that nickname Was
the most unbelievablesupportive, caring, loving rock
that any man could ever have.
You know, when I got sick, Iwas sick.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
And I think you know that I fucking know.
I've never talked to Amy scaredin my life.
I remember where I was standingwhen she called me.
She said he won't fuckinglisten to me.
That's typical.
Put that motherfucker on thephone.
She was scared, she was scared.

Speaker 3 (55:22):
You were in bad shape .
I was dying For those thatdon't know, Mark.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
Mark drank himself to a bad cirrhosis situation and
other medical stuff where hisbody was shutting down.

Speaker 3 (55:35):
It was MELD scores, or the health of the liver score
, that they determine whether ornot you need a transplant.
15 is your number for atransplant.
I was at a 25, 26 at that point.
That is that is done.
Yeah, that is you're done.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
So, thank God, uh, with Amy, she basically tied me
to the car and said we're goingin drove me in and the other
thing.
That was a saver and I and Iwon't give them a free plug on
your thing, but there is atransplant organization here in
town which is worldwide known.

(56:13):
I mean they are the most.
It's like the country club ofhospitals, the most unbelievable
thing.
They had I think 14 doctorsassigned to me.
I still to this day have to goto follow up patient, to follow
up, because I went there, theytold me what I needed to do.
I had to make the choice.
I did not believe I was analcoholic and I'll tell you why.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Fascinating.
Tell you why, fascinating, Ithought the same thing.
I fucking knew I had a problemfor years.
You didn't, you went in and youdidn't know you were an
alcoholic, absolutely.
Oh, mark, mark, say more sohere's the thing I realize now.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
There are different levels of it.
Okay, we, we, we me, my family.
An alcoholic is somebody on thestreet corner.
Yeah, an alcoholic is somebodythat can't keep a job yeah you,
it's in jail.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
Yeah, you were, that is getting duis.

Speaker 3 (57:10):
That is beating their wife.
That can't keep a relationshiptogether.
That's an alcoholic, yeah, aguy who has a professional
career, a wife of 20 plus years,two kids.
He's put through college, aadvanced degree in mathematics,
sure smart guy it guy.
It's not an alcoholic, not analcoholic.
Alcoholics come in verydifferent forms.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
You look back now and you realize the error of your
ways, right?

Speaker 3 (57:35):
I realize now that if I needed to drink, I'm an
alcoholic and I needed to drink,right, that made me an
alcoholic.
My liver told me you're analcoholic.
Yeah, I had underlying medicalconditions, but that's no excuse
.
If I didn't drink, I wouldn'thave been in that condition.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
Have you unpacked?
Why you drank?

Speaker 3 (57:57):
You know, I think it was a excuse for me.
It was.
It was a way for me to not dealwith the real pain, yeah, and
not deal with the real pain,yeah, and not deal with the real
issues.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
that was your number of choice right that was my
number of choice as well too,and we can all it's an easy
choice, and it is an easy choicebecause it's very socially
acceptable.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
Right, it's for me.
I was in construction and themore I could drink, the more I
more street cred I had with theconstruction dudes and it was
like, oh, she couldn't reallyput them back.
I was like, oh yeah, what thatshould say to you is, oh, she's
got a pile of shit, she'snumbing, she can really fucking
pour on top of that.
Very impressive very impressive.

Speaker 3 (58:34):
So I think I think there's a problem, though with
there's a correlation to mebetween the mental health of
people and how long it has beena stigma to look at.
There's not really somethingwrong with them yeah what is?
because you can't see a mental.
You can't see a broke you abroken mind.
You can't see like you can seea broken leg or a broken limb.

(58:55):
Okay, it's a sickness, thoughyou.
You have a sickness if you havemental health and you need to
be able to manage it, workthrough it, medic it.
However, you get through it.
Alcoholism's the same way, butsociety doesn't look at it the
same way.
Society looks at an alcoholicas a broken person who is less

(59:16):
than we as alcoholics destroyour lives in the process of
doing all of that.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
So I'm proud of you for five years.
That's a really powerful thingand I give back now.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
That's a really powerful thing and I give back
now.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
That's all we're supposed to do.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
Part of the program that they made me go to I know.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
I've met your sponsor .
She's amazing.
I know her well.

Speaker 3 (59:43):
She's the best person ever.
They made me go to IPOIntensive Outpatient Therapy and
I'm sitting here going.
Why am I here?
I don't need this.
They made me go to IPOintensive outpatient or IOP
intensive outpatient therapy,and I'm sitting here going.
Why am I here?
I don't need this.
And you know what?
I didn't because I'll tell youwhat.
By the second class I wasteaching it.
Okay.
Then I realized you aresupposed to be here, mark, you
know why?
Because you're in as bad ashape as all of these people

(01:00:06):
that are on the call, laying intheir bed feeling sorry for
themselves, thinking they'regoing to die.
You're here for a reason.
You're here to give them areason to live.
And it was amazing.
So I still go back to that sameintensive outpatient therapy
group.
They invite me back to speak totheir people.

(01:00:29):
They're having a hard timegetting through, I love it
Because I am now off the livertransplant list.
My MELD score is normal,basically like a normal person.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
It's unbelievable.
Yeah, from how bad of a shapeyou were to you sitting here
across, incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
And I'm so much more at peace.
I understand people, I meditate.
You've got to find this solacein yourself, and if you need an
external source, God whateverthat may be find it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
Find your higher power wherever.
That is Exactly right.
It doesn't matter what it lookslike for you, your higher power
could live within yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
It's totally true, it really can.
Your power could live withinyourself.
It's totally true, it reallycan right, because I think the
human mind is so powerful andyour will to live is so powerful
if you give yourself a reasonto live.
You've just got to find thatreason, whether it's for
yourself, for a beautiful familylike me Absolutely.

(01:01:25):
You've got to find that,because if you don't, you're
just committing suicide.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
Yeah slowly, you know , but anyway, put the bottle to
your, to your head, and pull thetrigger.
I mean, it's a real it's a realthing and as as you, jackie,
watching that.
If you haven't already had bigconversations about what that
impact had, I encourage you guysto do that, because I think you
learn a lot about each other.
And doing that and not from aplace of being defensive right,

(01:01:51):
nobody has to.
This is what it is, right,there's no, you don't.
You don't have to defendyourself, you don't have to
defend yourself.
But it is fascinating in thefamily dynamic to really be able
to unpack and say this is theimpact this had on me and then
just hold space for each otheras you talk through that stuff,
like if you don't come from backfrom a place of defensive.
So much growth happens in that,so much healing.
It's crazy.

(01:02:11):
Well, thank you guys for comingon today.
I could have talked to you guysfor hours and hours and hours,
but we they're going to cap usat one.
So, thank you, casey, weappreciate you.
So, yes, for this week, may Isuggest talking with your family
, having having bigconversations where you don't
come from a place ofdefensiveness, just from a place

(01:02:32):
of curiosity.
So that's our time for today.
If you have questions,suggestions or think you have a
story that you'd like to add tothe podcast.
Send us an email Our emailaddress is ladies at
letsgetnakedpodcastcom and thendo all the things to support the
pod so that we can continue todo this important work.
Follow share rate and review.
We will catch you next time.

(01:02:53):
That's a wrap.
I'd love to help you getvulnerable.
Let's get naked.