November 22, 2022 • 23 mins
In this episode of "Let's Talk Farm to Fork", we're joined by Steve Clifford from SecondBite, who we will be talking to about how their not-for-profit has been a useful tool in both saving food supplies and feeding hungry families within Australia.
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Voiceover (00:02):
Welcome to let's talk farm to fork, the PostHarvest
podcast that interviews people,making an impact in the fresh
produce sector.
We'll take a deep dive into whatthey do and find out how they're
helping to reduce the amount offood lost or wasted along the
farm to fork journey.
But before we get started, didyou know that according to the
(00:23):
UN's food and agricultureorganisation, around 45% of the
world's fruits and vegetables goto waste each year?
If you would like to learn moreabout how you can practically
play your part in maximisingfruit and vegetable supplies,
whether you're a part of theindustry or simply a consumer
visit PostHarvest.Com and tryout their free online course
(00:45):
library today.
Now time for your host MitchellDenton.
Mitchell Denton (00:50):
Hello and welcome to"Let's Talk Farm to
Fork," the PostHarvest podcastthat interviews people of
interest across the food supplychain.
Today on our show, I'm joined bySteve Clifford from SecondBite,
who I'll be talking to about howtheir not-for-profit has been a
useful tool in both saving foodsupplies and feeding hungry
families within Australia.
So with no further delays, let'sget started.
(01:14):
Well, good morning Steve.
Thanks for joining me.
How are you?
Steve Clifford (01:16):
I'm well, thanks, Mitch.
Very good, thank you.
Mitchell Denton (01:19):
Great.
Well, before we get into it, Iwas just wondering if you could
tell us a little bit aboutyourself and what you do, and
maybe just a fun fact aboutyourself while we're at it.
Steve Clifford (01:28):
Okay, well, I'm the CEO of SecondBite and have
been there for 18 months, butbefore I was at SecondBite, I
was actually a corporate lawyerfor 30 years.
With one of Australia's top lawfirms.
I, I worked for a few years inNew York and was in, uh, Asia,
heading up our Southeast Asiaoffices.
And after three decades of doingthat, I'd always been involved
(01:48):
with the social justice sort ofside at work.
I was chair of the charitycommittee and, and it sort of
struck me that there wassomething else I wanted to do.
So, um, it's a bit of a funfact.
I suppose eight years ago I madethe transition from the
corporate world to thenot-for-profit world once our
three kids were young adults.
So, sort of always been part ofmy life plan.
I had a father who was veryinvolved in his local community.
(02:10):
So, um, that's what I've done.
Uh, and the, the other part ofit that's a little bit of a fun
fact, I suppose, is, uh, when Idid start that transition about
eight years ago, I took offabout 14 months on a sabbatical.
And I'm a passionate hiker,Mitch.
So it gave me the opportunity togo through some of my bucket
list of hikes in Australia andoverseas.
So that was a bit of fun.
Mitchell Denton (02:30):
Yeah.
Wow.
I just got back from New Zealandmyself and, uh, just doing a
bunch of hikes over there.
Love a good nature trail.
Steve Clifford (02:37):
Absolutely.
I suppose the Routeburn, theHollyford, the Milford.
Mitchell Denton (02:41):
Exactly.
You nailed it in one.
Yeah.
Steve Clifford (02:43):
Yeah.
I've spent months there.
It's just such a fantasticcountry for hiking.
A bit like in Australia,Tasmania, I think would be our
equivalent of, you know, it's abit like New Zealand in a
smaller spot.
Anyway, we could talk about umhiking...
Mitchell Denton (02:56):
I'm sure we could.
I'm sure we could.
But, before we get stuck downthat path, would you mind
telling us a little bit moreabout that journey from the
corporate world to workingacross several not-for-profits,
including one of Australia'slargest food rescue
organisations, SecondBite.
Steve Clifford (03:11):
Well during, during that, um, uh, sort of
sabbatical, I suppose you'd callit.
While I was trying to work outhow best to make a contribution
in a, in a second career.
I actually had about a hundredand, well, exactly 171 coffees.
And, and what that was all aboutwas, I knew I had contacts in
the corporate world that couldtell me about what a leadership
role in the not-for-profit worldwould be like.
But it was a matter of sort ofgetting as much information and,
(03:33):
and data as I could.
To, to help along the way withthat journey.
So I, I would literally, with a,with a help of a career coach,
set up a program to meet people,and I had three questions for
them, Mitch.
The first one was, um,"Do youthink there's a role for a worn
out corporate lawyer in, in theworld, you know, you think
there's, and, and people weregenerally very nice.
(03:55):
I got first past that firstquestion pretty easily.
And the second one was, um,"Ifthat's the case, what would I
need to sort of hone up on?
What would my weaknesses be?"And people were very, um, sort
of helpful on that front, givingme some areas where even if you
think you know how to run abusiness or how business world
works, it's very differentobviously in the not for profit
world.
And the third question was,"Canyou introduce me to two more
(04:16):
people?".
So through that process, Imanaged to build an amazing
network of not-for-profitconnections that I've been using
to this day.
And they've, they've beenterrific people who understand
the world's a bit different in,in, uh, for purpose layer.
We need, we need, I think itreally helps to have the
corporate rigor, but there is apiece of heart that's involved
(04:37):
in the for purpose world that isreally important.
And one of the things I'velearned in this, in the
leadership roles and in thisworld is, um, there's a saying
that I've heard a couple oftimes in the sector, which is,
"We don't care what you know,until we know you care".
And I found that's been reallyquite insightful, it's a
different world.
We have a lot of passionatepeople in this sector.
So, that's what the journey's,um, involved.
(04:59):
In fact, there's a book that I,I wrote along the way called
"From Profit to Purpose".
So if, if people are interested,they don't have to make the same
mistakes that, that I did,Mitch.
But it's been, it's been a heckof a journey.
And along the way, the first gigI had was actually working with
kids in the youth justicesystem.
So it was very different fromFood Rescue.
I was head of Australianoperations at Save the Children,
(05:20):
so working a lot with indigenouscommunities around the country,
um, had 150 staff really doingamazing jobs all around the
country, but particularly inthose indigenous communities.
And I had a stint, um, TwiggyForrest asked me to go and be
the inaugural CEO of his Thriveby Five Early Childhood
Initiative, part of The MinderooFoundation.
So, it's been a heck of ajourney, but the last eighteen
(05:42):
months, ending waste, endinghunger, SecondBite.
Mitchell Denton (05:45):
That's fantastic Uh, that's actually a
good segue.
SecondBite's mantra is"EndingWaste, Ending Hunger".
What does that look like beingpractically rolled out?
Steve Clifford (05:55):
Yeah.
It's a heck of a goal, isn't,It's a very ambitious goal.
And one of the points I, I makewhen I'm talking to potential
supporters is here you get two,two missions, two purposes for
the price of one.
Um, it's interesting to me whenI was working in sort of
disadvantaged youth, noteveryone would necessarily share
my views and those are mycolleagues for, for trying to
(06:15):
make a difference.
For example, some people think,well, those kids should just
pull up their socks and whydon't they, you know, just get a
job.
And it was quite interestingsometimes the pushback you get
from people who don'tnecessarily understand the
issues.
You contrast that to foodrescue, right?
I must admit, it's, it's such agood story, Mitch.
it's, it's an easy sell in manyways because, you know, with
(06:37):
waste, we're trying to minimisegood food going to landfill.
That's a, a very worthy goal.
And on the hunger front, one insix Australians face food
insecurity.
And in 2022 in a, in a countrylike Australia, that's just
unacceptable.
We need to get those numbersdown.
So, so that's what practicallywhat it looks like, we rescue
and redistribute more free foodthan any other food rescue
(07:00):
organisation in the country.
I think SecondBite's tended tohide, hide its light under the
bushel, no pun intended, in thepast.
And I think we need to probablystart to spread the word a
little bit better.
We, we are a very efficient,very, um impactful organisation
and, uh, we need to keep doingmore of what we're doing.
And hopefully one day there willbe an end of waste and end of
(07:22):
hunger.
But in the meantime, there'splenty of work to be done.
Mitchell Denton (07:24):
Absolutely.
So what are some ofSecondBite's, biggest goals, and
what are some of the currentchallenges that need to be
overcome?
Steve Clifford (07:31):
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Um, I think probably one of thebig biggest goals we have is to
move into the, what I might calla farm gate space.
There's a lot of good foodthat's lost at farm level.
I've read some statistic that upto a third of the food produced
is wasted.
So, the challenge of that, ofcourse, is that moving the food
to where it's needed fromregional areas and rural areas
(07:55):
to, to where the populationsmight be that are needy.
It takes resources.
It's expensive.
So, that's one of the big areaswe'd like to work in and where
we think that the government canhelp in this area is perhaps
with a national food donationtax incentive.
And we have sort of petition to,to government about that, and
there's a, a bit of work beingstarted by all the food rescue
(08:17):
organisations collaboratively tosee if Canberra can help with
that.
Because at the moment, a wellmeaning, Farm Gate producer has
to pay effectively out of theirown pocket to, to get food to
food rescue organisations.
So, that's not sustainable longterm.
So I think with that, if we canget the government on board with
that tax incentive, that'll beterrific and that'll be one of
(08:38):
the challenges beating.
Another area that we see as abig goal is to try and match the
demand of our agencies and thepeople they support with the
supply of food.
So if you think about it,generally, someone comes to an
organisation like us, a fooddonor.
"We're trying to get rid of thisfood, boomf! Here it is".
At a certain extent, we can pickand choose, but you don't wanna
(09:00):
be too picky or choosy.
Or people might say, Well thanksvery much but, you know, we'll
just put it in the landfill or,um, we'll deal with it some
other way." So in the past we'vetended to pretty much take
whatever we're given and then ina way hoist it onto the
agencies, even if it's notnecessarily exactly what they're
after.
So something we are reallyfocusing at the moment I've been
focusing on since I've been atSecondBite, is to listen more to
(09:23):
our agencies.
We've got 1100 agencies, whatfood do they actually need for
their, their clients?
Cultural appropriate food,obviously a big issue that
wasn't there in years past, foodrequirements or allergies.
So that's, um, a challenge, butalso a huge opportunity to to
better serve the people thatultimately, take the food that
we're rescuing.
(09:44):
And, we started, just finished afairly detailed research piece,
listening to our agencies and,and seeing how we can, can get
better at that.
So I think that's another areathat we're excited about.
And probably the third, thirdarea where we've got a big goal,
of course, is just increase ourimpact around the country, save
more food from going to landfillfeed more hungry Aussies.
(10:04):
And the challenge there isbasically a matter of increasing
resources and funding.
So it's, it's always a case thatone of the limits to our impact
is the amount of, um, supportand funding we can get.
And we have a heck of a lot ofreally great support from Coles,
from corporates, fromgovernment, from trust and
foundations.
But there's so much need outthere, Mitch, we need to just
(10:25):
keep working at that.
Mitchell Denton (10:26):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
As a lot of listeners would'veheard by now, fruits and
vegetables have the highest foodloss and waste percentage
numbers.
When it comes to the foodrecovery of fruits and
vegetables, what are some of therequirements in order to
effectively give fresh produce asecond life?
Steve Clifford (10:43):
It's not that complicated with fruit and
veggies in, in many wayscompared to, say, meats and
dairy and all those that need tohave a, a cold chain.
Um, That we can make sure we'renot, uh, gonna be hurting anyone
with the food we provide.
But with fruit and veggies,basically, it just needs to be
in good condition for ourultimate clients, we want to
make sure that the food thatthey get is the food that they
can be proud to eat we don'twant any food shaming or
(11:06):
anything like that.
So all, all that means is we, weneed to move it quickly.
You have a lot more time,obviously with potatoes than you
do with bananas, but basicallyit's a matter of making sure
that we have a really good foodchain to get food from our
donors to the, the ultimatebeneficiaries.
And one of the ways we do thatis, um, we have a community
(11:27):
connect model which matches upagencies with food donors
directly.
So, you know, a local Colesstore, for example, might have a
local agency that provides foodto the local community.
That agency can collect the fooddirectly from Coles.
We monitor, we help maintain therelationship and keep a track of
the kilos that are moved and soon.
But in that situation, it's veryefficient, um, but tends to be
(11:50):
smaller quantities.
With larger quantities.
We, we have what we call adirect delivery model, and that
involves SecondBite vans and mystaff and our warehouses.
We've got five warehouses aroundthe country moving larger
amounts.
Maybe it's from distributioncentres or where there's
significant amounts of food fromdonors or, or farmers or
whatever.
And that way we can get the foodquickly from donors to, to
(12:14):
beneficiaries.
So it's, it's challenging, butthe end results, we're really
proud of what we have managed toachieve in the last, uh, 17
years.
Mitchell Denton (12:22):
Yeah, definitely.
Let me follow that up by askingat, at what point does an
attempted food rescue lose itsvalue or become more trouble
than it's worth?
Steve Clifford (12:31):
Yeah, interesting.
It's simply a matter of ageing,really.
I mean, uh, with bananas it'sgonna be quicker than, than, uh,
than carrots.
It basically gets to the stagewhere sometimes some of the food
that we are offered,unfortunately we can't, we can't
accept because there's no pointus taking away food that's
virtually, uh, inedible and thenhaving to find somewhere to, you
(12:51):
know, put it into wasteourselves.
So, um, it's, it's, it depends.
The answer to that question,Mitch, very much depends on the,
uh, on the, on the food productwith, with groceries, for
example, pasts and rice and soon.
You have a little bit more time.
In fact, we'll take food.
Or close by, used by date.
And we still have someflexibility there.
(13:11):
Um, staple foods and cans and soon.
Again, you've got more potentialto get that food to the people
we need to serve.
It's fair to say we have someprotection.
There's some good Samaritanlegislation around the country.
That means as long as we actreasonably and do all the right
things, you know, no one cantake us to task if it happens
that, you know, they've eaten a,an apple that's, that's gone off
(13:33):
and, and they get sick.
So, having said that, I'm notaware of that ever having been
done.
But you know, that's the sort ofthing we have to deal with.
Mitchell Denton (13:41):
Yeah, that's great to clear the air because
that's definitely been a bit ofa myth that's floated around,
especially in the, in thehospitality industry.
I, I used to work in multiplekitchens and there would always
at the end of shifts be leftoverfood and things, and you wanna
make the most of that, you wannabe able to give that to homeless
people that are on the samestreet.
(14:02):
And then there's that age oldmyth of like, you can't give the
food because of X, Y, Z, someonemight get sick da da da.
So, it is good to put aspotlight on the fact that those
Good Samaritan laws are kind ofin place.
Because I think a lot of peopleare kind of avoiding the ability
to really, uh, stretch that foodout and, and to provide to
people that really Need it.
Steve Clifford (14:22):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
I mean, if food that's in goodcondition goes into waste.
When we know there's hungrypeople are out.
That's, that's terrible.
So, to shed some light on thatMisconception is good.
Having said that, um, foodthat's been cooked up and
sitting in a bain-marie, youoften, you'll be at a restaurant
at the end of the day or um,somewhere you think, Like
(14:42):
they're gonna throw that foodout and unfortunately, sometimes
food that's been prepared, putout on a platter.
It's just, it's too risky.
You know, we, we don't wanna to,uh, take food that's been cooked
and, and, and try and get thatto, to hungry people when
there's a risk of some sort of,um, issue with the food quality.
So we do, do it sometimes invery sort of limited
(15:04):
circumstances.
We'll take food that's beenprepared and quickly get it to
someone who's nearby but itdepends on the circumstances.
Generally we gotta protect thepeople we're serving.
Mitchell Denton (15:13):
Definitely.
So then whether it be withinAustralian homes, grocery
stores, or restaurants, whatwould you identify as being one
of the biggest pain points orblind spots when it comes to
food waste?
Steve Clifford (15:23):
Yeah, that's a, that's a really good question.
I think probably one of thethings that we, um, have found
is, an ability to move food, uh,from the, the more remote areas,
I guess is one of the painpoints for us.
Just seeing the amount of foodthat, that's not saved in remote
and rural areas, how we can, canget that food into the system is
(15:47):
something that sort of causes uspain and something that we're
looking at on a, you know,regular basis to see what we can
do.
In addition to that issue withmoving food from the regional
and, and, and rural areas and soon, just in our day to day
purchases, um, from supermarketsand, and, um, and grocery
stores, we often are, are a bittoo choosy.
(16:08):
I think the public is, um,Causing some issues ourselves.
The choosier, we are the morewaste there is.
So maybe part of the message islet's not be too choosy.
Maybe I can accept a banana witha bit of brown or tomato, which
is slightly squashy.
Um, I don't mind that secondbite.
If that means there's less wastecoming at the back of the
loading bay, because that meansthat the food's not being wasted
(16:29):
at all.
And certainly all of our donorsat the same time as they're
providing their waste to us, aretrying to minimise waste.
And that's, that's a good thingfor the community and to
minimise landfill.
So I think there's an element oftraining the public here where
we make sure we perhaps aren'ttoo choosy.
We make sure we actually use thefood we buy and, and, and don't
(16:50):
buy more food than we need.
Things like that.
I mean, I, I know around our,our home here, you know,
sometimes you see the milk inthe fridge and it's at the use
by date.
Well, you, I know if it stillsmells okay for a day or two
afterwards, and I'm not, I'm notencouraging any bad practices
here, Mitch, but if it's stillsmells okay, a day or two later,
like my grandma used to say, ifit smells okay, you can eat it.
So, um, there's some stuff wecan do ourselves there to sort
(17:13):
of minimise those pain points.
Mitchell Denton (17:15):
Definitely.
So then, has food rescue beenchallenging during covid?
Steve Clifford (17:20):
It certainly has.
I mean, before Covid we had the,the bush fires, you might
recall.
Then Covid came, really playedhavoc with our supply chains,
SecondBites' supply chains, aswell as the supply chain of the
various food organisations, um,whether it's retail or wholesale
that we, we deal with.
And of course that uh, challengein getting the supply through
(17:43):
the various food chains wasexacerbated by the fact that on
the demand side, there are a lotof people during, uh, Covid, of
course, who are struggling toget good food.
So that was a challenge.
And, and it, it, even though wesort of could say, we're
post-Covid now, whatever thatmeans, because Covid is still
around, isn't it?
But those issues tend to ebb andflow, there are still some sort
(18:04):
of supply issues that come fromtime-to-time.
What's happened since though, ofcourse is, is the floods then
came as Covid eased off.
We had terrific problems with,um, supply chain during the
floods initially in the NorthernNew South Wales and Queensland.
We did a lot of work up thereand helped a lot of Aussies, but
it was certainly a challengingtime for food rescue.
(18:25):
And now we've got on the demandside, Mitch, the, the cost of
living challenges.
We anecdotally, and through ouragencies here, often of, um, new
cohorts coming into their, theiragencies for, for food support,
young tradies families whohadn't traditionally needed
help, but they, they just don'thave the work that they had
before that costs are expensive.
(18:47):
Uh, they have to sometimeschoose, do they feed the kids or
do they pay the rent and, andthe bills.
And that's a, that's a reallyinvidious decision for any
family to have to make or asingle person living on their,
you know, on their own.
There's all sorts of challengesthere with the cost of living.
So, it would be good if thegovernment could perhaps step in
a little bit there.
I think it was a bitdisappointing that we didn't see
a lot of support in the lastbudget for, um, those sort of
(19:10):
challenges post-Covid and costof living.
Mitchell Denton (19:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, Steve, when it comes to foodwaste and sustainability, what's
on the horizon for SecondBite?
Where is your attention andresearch focusing the most right
now?
Steve Clifford (19:22):
Well, as I mentioned before, we, we are
very focused on trying to see ifwe can be do better at matching
demand with supply and justreally listen to see what it,
what are the needs of theagencies and the people they
serve, And can we work with ourdonors to try and match that up
a bit better than we have in thepast?
And part of the way that we'lldo that was with increased
technology, not just in thatspace.
(19:44):
I mean, if, if you said, Whatare we really focusing our
attention on right now?
Within the organisation, it'svery much about increasing our
IT capability, Uh, in our vans,where we've rolled out all sorts
of technology.
That means people aren't writingon clipboards anymore.
We can track what's going onwith the food coming in and food
going out a lot better than wecould in the past.
(20:05):
I think generally within ourorganisation we are moving to
bring in more technology just sowe can really be at the cutting
edge and really increase ourefficiency and effectiveness.
Mitchell Denton (20:16):
So continuing that thought.
Is there a particular group orinnovation within the industry
that you're excitedly keeping awatchful eye on?
Steve Clifford (20:23):
We try and keep our, our fingers on the pulse
for generally what's happeningin the sector.
And I think, uh, there'sprobably no specific area I'd
say there, in relation to aninnovation that we're excitedly
keeping watchful eye on.
I guess that's the, uh,innovation I mentioned before,
the National Food Donation TaxIncentive.
I think that will really be a,an incredible boost to the
organisation if we can get thegovernment involved on that
(20:45):
front to give a little bit moresupport.
We've also, as a collaborationbetween ourselves and Food Bank
and OzHarvest, suggested to thegovernment that we should have a
fixed amount put aside everyyear for basically looking after
the people who, not just whenthere's a, a Covid or a flood or
a bush fire, but day to day allthrough the year, people who are
food insecure.
(21:06):
To, to have a fund available to,to support them, and secondly,
as we realise that there aremore and more events and
emergencies and crises that,that occur in Australian life.
It seems to be an ongoing thingto have some funding put aside
by the federal government forthat so that we don't have to
wait each time an event becomes,uh, like a fire that we have to
(21:27):
sort of wait around while peopleare hungry, while the government
works out what they're gonna do.
So there's a couple of, uh,innovations there that we're,
we're kind of excited about forthe future.
Mitchell Denton (21:36):
Yeah.
Fantastic.
So Steve, we are coming to aclose, but before we do, I just
wanna ask, what is the numberone takeaway you really want the
listeners to absorb from thisepisode?
Steve Clifford (21:46):
I guess the main thing for me is firstly take,
uh, take account of the peoplein Australia, be, be a bit
empathetic towards the people inAustralia who are in that food
insecure group.
It's extraordinary to me that,you know, one in six Australians
probably approaching one infive, um, aren't guaranteed a
good meal every day.
That's extra, You know, thatshouldn't happen in a country
(22:08):
like ours.
And maybe part of the way we cando it day-to-day help towards
that is just as I mentionedbefore, thinking about when we
are doing our own buying.
Make sure that we're, you know,in our own homes, minimising the
waste that we, uh, that we putback into that landfill.
Mitchell Denton (22:23):
Absolutely.
Well, that's all for today'sepisode of"Let's Talk Farm to
Fork".
Thanks for listening and thankyou, Steve for joining me today.
Steve Clifford (22:31):
Thanks, Mitch.
Pleasure.
Mitchell Denton (22:32):
For any listeners who would like to know
more about Steve and SecondBite,check out the link in the
description of this episode.
Make sure to subscribe to thepodcast so that you never miss
an episode, and don't forget toleave a review and share with
your friends.
Until next time, you've beenlistening to"Let's Talk Farm to
Fork", a PostHarvest podcast.
Voiceover (22:49):
We appreciate you joining us for this episode of
let's talk, farm to fork, besure to rate, review and
subscribe.
Also, if you would like to learnmore about how you can
practically play your part inmaximizing fruit and vegetable
supplies, whether you're asupplier, consumer, or anyone in
between the farm to forkjourney, visit PostHarvest.Com
(23:12):
and try out their free onlinecourse library today.
Welcome to let's talk farm to fork, the PostHarvest
podcast that interviews people,making an impact in the fresh
produce sector.
We'll take a deep dive into whatthey do and find out how they're
helping to reduce the amount offood lost or wasted along the
farm to fork journey.
But before we get started, didyou know that according to the
(00:23):
UN's food and agricultureorganisation, around 45% of the
world's fruits and vegetables goto waste each year?
If you would like to learn moreabout how you can practically
play your part in maximisingfruit and vegetable supplies,
whether you're a part of theindustry or simply a consumer
visit PostHarvest.Com and tryout their free online course
(00:45):
library today.
Now time for your host MitchellDenton.
Mitchell Denton (00:50):
Hello and welcome to"Let's Talk Farm to
Fork," the PostHarvest podcastthat interviews people of
interest across the food supplychain.
Today on our show, I'm joined bySteve Clifford from SecondBite,
who I'll be talking to about howtheir not-for-profit has been a
useful tool in both saving foodsupplies and feeding hungry
families within Australia.
So with no further delays, let'sget started.
(01:14):
Well, good morning Steve.
Thanks for joining me.
How are you?
Steve Clifford (01:16):
I'm well, thanks, Mitch.
Very good, thank you.
Mitchell Denton (01:19):
Great.
Well, before we get into it, Iwas just wondering if you could
tell us a little bit aboutyourself and what you do, and
maybe just a fun fact aboutyourself while we're at it.
Steve Clifford (01:28):
Okay, well, I'm the CEO of SecondBite and have
been there for 18 months, butbefore I was at SecondBite, I
was actually a corporate lawyerfor 30 years.
With one of Australia's top lawfirms.
I, I worked for a few years inNew York and was in, uh, Asia,
heading up our Southeast Asiaoffices.
And after three decades of doingthat, I'd always been involved
(01:48):
with the social justice sort ofside at work.
I was chair of the charitycommittee and, and it sort of
struck me that there wassomething else I wanted to do.
So, um, it's a bit of a funfact.
I suppose eight years ago I madethe transition from the
corporate world to thenot-for-profit world once our
three kids were young adults.
So, sort of always been part ofmy life plan.
I had a father who was veryinvolved in his local community.
(02:10):
So, um, that's what I've done.
Uh, and the, the other part ofit that's a little bit of a fun
fact, I suppose, is, uh, when Idid start that transition about
eight years ago, I took offabout 14 months on a sabbatical.
And I'm a passionate hiker,Mitch.
So it gave me the opportunity togo through some of my bucket
list of hikes in Australia andoverseas.
So that was a bit of fun.
Mitchell Denton (02:30):
Yeah.
Wow.
I just got back from New Zealandmyself and, uh, just doing a
bunch of hikes over there.
Love a good nature trail.
Steve Clifford (02:37):
Absolutely.
I suppose the Routeburn, theHollyford, the Milford.
Mitchell Denton (02:41):
Exactly.
You nailed it in one.
Yeah.
Steve Clifford (02:43):
Yeah.
I've spent months there.
It's just such a fantasticcountry for hiking.
A bit like in Australia,Tasmania, I think would be our
equivalent of, you know, it's abit like New Zealand in a
smaller spot.
Anyway, we could talk about umhiking...
Mitchell Denton (02:56):
I'm sure we could.
I'm sure we could.
But, before we get stuck downthat path, would you mind
telling us a little bit moreabout that journey from the
corporate world to workingacross several not-for-profits,
including one of Australia'slargest food rescue
organisations, SecondBite.
Steve Clifford (03:11):
Well during, during that, um, uh, sort of
sabbatical, I suppose you'd callit.
While I was trying to work outhow best to make a contribution
in a, in a second career.
I actually had about a hundredand, well, exactly 171 coffees.
And, and what that was all aboutwas, I knew I had contacts in
the corporate world that couldtell me about what a leadership
role in the not-for-profit worldwould be like.
But it was a matter of sort ofgetting as much information and,
(03:33):
and data as I could.
To, to help along the way withthat journey.
So I, I would literally, with a,with a help of a career coach,
set up a program to meet people,and I had three questions for
them, Mitch.
The first one was, um,"Do youthink there's a role for a worn
out corporate lawyer in, in theworld, you know, you think
there's, and, and people weregenerally very nice.
(03:55):
I got first past that firstquestion pretty easily.
And the second one was, um,"Ifthat's the case, what would I
need to sort of hone up on?
What would my weaknesses be?"And people were very, um, sort
of helpful on that front, givingme some areas where even if you
think you know how to run abusiness or how business world
works, it's very differentobviously in the not for profit
world.
And the third question was,"Canyou introduce me to two more
(04:16):
people?".
So through that process, Imanaged to build an amazing
network of not-for-profitconnections that I've been using
to this day.
And they've, they've beenterrific people who understand
the world's a bit different in,in, uh, for purpose layer.
We need, we need, I think itreally helps to have the
corporate rigor, but there is apiece of heart that's involved
(04:37):
in the for purpose world that isreally important.
And one of the things I'velearned in this, in the
leadership roles and in thisworld is, um, there's a saying
that I've heard a couple oftimes in the sector, which is,
"We don't care what you know,until we know you care".
And I found that's been reallyquite insightful, it's a
different world.
We have a lot of passionatepeople in this sector.
So, that's what the journey's,um, involved.
(04:59):
In fact, there's a book that I,I wrote along the way called
"From Profit to Purpose".
So if, if people are interested,they don't have to make the same
mistakes that, that I did,Mitch.
But it's been, it's been a heckof a journey.
And along the way, the first gigI had was actually working with
kids in the youth justicesystem.
So it was very different fromFood Rescue.
I was head of Australianoperations at Save the Children,
(05:20):
so working a lot with indigenouscommunities around the country,
um, had 150 staff really doingamazing jobs all around the
country, but particularly inthose indigenous communities.
And I had a stint, um, TwiggyForrest asked me to go and be
the inaugural CEO of his Thriveby Five Early Childhood
Initiative, part of The MinderooFoundation.
So, it's been a heck of ajourney, but the last eighteen
(05:42):
months, ending waste, endinghunger, SecondBite.
Mitchell Denton (05:45):
That's fantastic Uh, that's actually a
good segue.
SecondBite's mantra is"EndingWaste, Ending Hunger".
What does that look like beingpractically rolled out?
Steve Clifford (05:55):
Yeah.
It's a heck of a goal, isn't,It's a very ambitious goal.
And one of the points I, I makewhen I'm talking to potential
supporters is here you get two,two missions, two purposes for
the price of one.
Um, it's interesting to me whenI was working in sort of
disadvantaged youth, noteveryone would necessarily share
my views and those are mycolleagues for, for trying to
(06:15):
make a difference.
For example, some people think,well, those kids should just
pull up their socks and whydon't they, you know, just get a
job.
And it was quite interestingsometimes the pushback you get
from people who don'tnecessarily understand the
issues.
You contrast that to foodrescue, right?
I must admit, it's, it's such agood story, Mitch.
it's, it's an easy sell in manyways because, you know, with
(06:37):
waste, we're trying to minimisegood food going to landfill.
That's a, a very worthy goal.
And on the hunger front, one insix Australians face food
insecurity.
And in 2022 in a, in a countrylike Australia, that's just
unacceptable.
We need to get those numbersdown.
So, so that's what practicallywhat it looks like, we rescue
and redistribute more free foodthan any other food rescue
(07:00):
organisation in the country.
I think SecondBite's tended tohide, hide its light under the
bushel, no pun intended, in thepast.
And I think we need to probablystart to spread the word a
little bit better.
We, we are a very efficient,very, um impactful organisation
and, uh, we need to keep doingmore of what we're doing.
And hopefully one day there willbe an end of waste and end of
(07:22):
hunger.
But in the meantime, there'splenty of work to be done.
Mitchell Denton (07:24):
Absolutely.
So what are some ofSecondBite's, biggest goals, and
what are some of the currentchallenges that need to be
overcome?
Steve Clifford (07:31):
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Um, I think probably one of thebig biggest goals we have is to
move into the, what I might calla farm gate space.
There's a lot of good foodthat's lost at farm level.
I've read some statistic that upto a third of the food produced
is wasted.
So, the challenge of that, ofcourse, is that moving the food
to where it's needed fromregional areas and rural areas
(07:55):
to, to where the populationsmight be that are needy.
It takes resources.
It's expensive.
So, that's one of the big areaswe'd like to work in and where
we think that the government canhelp in this area is perhaps
with a national food donationtax incentive.
And we have sort of petition to,to government about that, and
there's a, a bit of work beingstarted by all the food rescue
(08:17):
organisations collaboratively tosee if Canberra can help with
that.
Because at the moment, a wellmeaning, Farm Gate producer has
to pay effectively out of theirown pocket to, to get food to
food rescue organisations.
So, that's not sustainable longterm.
So I think with that, if we canget the government on board with
that tax incentive, that'll beterrific and that'll be one of
(08:38):
the challenges beating.
Another area that we see as abig goal is to try and match the
demand of our agencies and thepeople they support with the
supply of food.
So if you think about it,generally, someone comes to an
organisation like us, a fooddonor.
"We're trying to get rid of thisfood, boomf! Here it is".
At a certain extent, we can pickand choose, but you don't wanna
(09:00):
be too picky or choosy.
Or people might say, Well thanksvery much but, you know, we'll
just put it in the landfill or,um, we'll deal with it some
other way." So in the past we'vetended to pretty much take
whatever we're given and then ina way hoist it onto the
agencies, even if it's notnecessarily exactly what they're
after.
So something we are reallyfocusing at the moment I've been
focusing on since I've been atSecondBite, is to listen more to
(09:23):
our agencies.
We've got 1100 agencies, whatfood do they actually need for
their, their clients?
Cultural appropriate food,obviously a big issue that
wasn't there in years past, foodrequirements or allergies.
So that's, um, a challenge, butalso a huge opportunity to to
better serve the people thatultimately, take the food that
we're rescuing.
(09:44):
And, we started, just finished afairly detailed research piece,
listening to our agencies and,and seeing how we can, can get
better at that.
So I think that's another areathat we're excited about.
And probably the third, thirdarea where we've got a big goal,
of course, is just increase ourimpact around the country, save
more food from going to landfillfeed more hungry Aussies.
(10:04):
And the challenge there isbasically a matter of increasing
resources and funding.
So it's, it's always a case thatone of the limits to our impact
is the amount of, um, supportand funding we can get.
And we have a heck of a lot ofreally great support from Coles,
from corporates, fromgovernment, from trust and
foundations.
But there's so much need outthere, Mitch, we need to just
(10:25):
keep working at that.
Mitchell Denton (10:26):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
As a lot of listeners would'veheard by now, fruits and
vegetables have the highest foodloss and waste percentage
numbers.
When it comes to the foodrecovery of fruits and
vegetables, what are some of therequirements in order to
effectively give fresh produce asecond life?
Steve Clifford (10:43):
It's not that complicated with fruit and
veggies in, in many wayscompared to, say, meats and
dairy and all those that need tohave a, a cold chain.
Um, That we can make sure we'renot, uh, gonna be hurting anyone
with the food we provide.
But with fruit and veggies,basically, it just needs to be
in good condition for ourultimate clients, we want to
make sure that the food thatthey get is the food that they
can be proud to eat we don'twant any food shaming or
(11:06):
anything like that.
So all, all that means is we, weneed to move it quickly.
You have a lot more time,obviously with potatoes than you
do with bananas, but basicallyit's a matter of making sure
that we have a really good foodchain to get food from our
donors to the, the ultimatebeneficiaries.
And one of the ways we do thatis, um, we have a community
(11:27):
connect model which matches upagencies with food donors
directly.
So, you know, a local Colesstore, for example, might have a
local agency that provides foodto the local community.
That agency can collect the fooddirectly from Coles.
We monitor, we help maintain therelationship and keep a track of
the kilos that are moved and soon.
But in that situation, it's veryefficient, um, but tends to be
(11:50):
smaller quantities.
With larger quantities.
We, we have what we call adirect delivery model, and that
involves SecondBite vans and mystaff and our warehouses.
We've got five warehouses aroundthe country moving larger
amounts.
Maybe it's from distributioncentres or where there's
significant amounts of food fromdonors or, or farmers or
whatever.
And that way we can get the foodquickly from donors to, to
(12:14):
beneficiaries.
So it's, it's challenging, butthe end results, we're really
proud of what we have managed toachieve in the last, uh, 17
years.
Mitchell Denton (12:22):
Yeah, definitely.
Let me follow that up by askingat, at what point does an
attempted food rescue lose itsvalue or become more trouble
than it's worth?
Steve Clifford (12:31):
Yeah, interesting.
It's simply a matter of ageing,really.
I mean, uh, with bananas it'sgonna be quicker than, than, uh,
than carrots.
It basically gets to the stagewhere sometimes some of the food
that we are offered,unfortunately we can't, we can't
accept because there's no pointus taking away food that's
virtually, uh, inedible and thenhaving to find somewhere to, you
(12:51):
know, put it into wasteourselves.
So, um, it's, it's, it depends.
The answer to that question,Mitch, very much depends on the,
uh, on the, on the food productwith, with groceries, for
example, pasts and rice and soon.
You have a little bit more time.
In fact, we'll take food.
Or close by, used by date.
And we still have someflexibility there.
(13:11):
Um, staple foods and cans and soon.
Again, you've got more potentialto get that food to the people
we need to serve.
It's fair to say we have someprotection.
There's some good Samaritanlegislation around the country.
That means as long as we actreasonably and do all the right
things, you know, no one cantake us to task if it happens
that, you know, they've eaten a,an apple that's, that's gone off
(13:33):
and, and they get sick.
So, having said that, I'm notaware of that ever having been
done.
But you know, that's the sort ofthing we have to deal with.
Mitchell Denton (13:41):
Yeah, that's great to clear the air because
that's definitely been a bit ofa myth that's floated around,
especially in the, in thehospitality industry.
I, I used to work in multiplekitchens and there would always
at the end of shifts be leftoverfood and things, and you wanna
make the most of that, you wannabe able to give that to homeless
people that are on the samestreet.
(14:02):
And then there's that age oldmyth of like, you can't give the
food because of X, Y, Z, someonemight get sick da da da.
So, it is good to put aspotlight on the fact that those
Good Samaritan laws are kind ofin place.
Because I think a lot of peopleare kind of avoiding the ability
to really, uh, stretch that foodout and, and to provide to
people that really Need it.
Steve Clifford (14:22):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
I mean, if food that's in goodcondition goes into waste.
When we know there's hungrypeople are out.
That's, that's terrible.
So, to shed some light on thatMisconception is good.
Having said that, um, foodthat's been cooked up and
sitting in a bain-marie, youoften, you'll be at a restaurant
at the end of the day or um,somewhere you think, Like
(14:42):
they're gonna throw that foodout and unfortunately, sometimes
food that's been prepared, putout on a platter.
It's just, it's too risky.
You know, we, we don't wanna to,uh, take food that's been cooked
and, and, and try and get thatto, to hungry people when
there's a risk of some sort of,um, issue with the food quality.
So we do, do it sometimes invery sort of limited
(15:04):
circumstances.
We'll take food that's beenprepared and quickly get it to
someone who's nearby but itdepends on the circumstances.
Generally we gotta protect thepeople we're serving.
Mitchell Denton (15:13):
Definitely.
So then whether it be withinAustralian homes, grocery
stores, or restaurants, whatwould you identify as being one
of the biggest pain points orblind spots when it comes to
food waste?
Steve Clifford (15:23):
Yeah, that's a, that's a really good question.
I think probably one of thethings that we, um, have found
is, an ability to move food, uh,from the, the more remote areas,
I guess is one of the painpoints for us.
Just seeing the amount of foodthat, that's not saved in remote
and rural areas, how we can, canget that food into the system is
(15:47):
something that sort of causes uspain and something that we're
looking at on a, you know,regular basis to see what we can
do.
In addition to that issue withmoving food from the regional
and, and, and rural areas and soon, just in our day to day
purchases, um, from supermarketsand, and, um, and grocery
stores, we often are, are a bittoo choosy.
(16:08):
I think the public is, um,Causing some issues ourselves.
The choosier, we are the morewaste there is.
So maybe part of the message islet's not be too choosy.
Maybe I can accept a banana witha bit of brown or tomato, which
is slightly squashy.
Um, I don't mind that secondbite.
If that means there's less wastecoming at the back of the
loading bay, because that meansthat the food's not being wasted
(16:29):
at all.
And certainly all of our donorsat the same time as they're
providing their waste to us, aretrying to minimise waste.
And that's, that's a good thingfor the community and to
minimise landfill.
So I think there's an element oftraining the public here where
we make sure we perhaps aren'ttoo choosy.
We make sure we actually use thefood we buy and, and, and don't
(16:50):
buy more food than we need.
Things like that.
I mean, I, I know around our,our home here, you know,
sometimes you see the milk inthe fridge and it's at the use
by date.
Well, you, I know if it stillsmells okay for a day or two
afterwards, and I'm not, I'm notencouraging any bad practices
here, Mitch, but if it's stillsmells okay, a day or two later,
like my grandma used to say, ifit smells okay, you can eat it.
So, um, there's some stuff wecan do ourselves there to sort
(17:13):
of minimise those pain points.
Mitchell Denton (17:15):
Definitely.
So then, has food rescue beenchallenging during covid?
Steve Clifford (17:20):
It certainly has.
I mean, before Covid we had the,the bush fires, you might
recall.
Then Covid came, really playedhavoc with our supply chains,
SecondBites' supply chains, aswell as the supply chain of the
various food organisations, um,whether it's retail or wholesale
that we, we deal with.
And of course that uh, challengein getting the supply through
(17:43):
the various food chains wasexacerbated by the fact that on
the demand side, there are a lotof people during, uh, Covid, of
course, who are struggling toget good food.
So that was a challenge.
And, and it, it, even though wesort of could say, we're
post-Covid now, whatever thatmeans, because Covid is still
around, isn't it?
But those issues tend to ebb andflow, there are still some sort
(18:04):
of supply issues that come fromtime-to-time.
What's happened since though, ofcourse is, is the floods then
came as Covid eased off.
We had terrific problems with,um, supply chain during the
floods initially in the NorthernNew South Wales and Queensland.
We did a lot of work up thereand helped a lot of Aussies, but
it was certainly a challengingtime for food rescue.
(18:25):
And now we've got on the demandside, Mitch, the, the cost of
living challenges.
We anecdotally, and through ouragencies here, often of, um, new
cohorts coming into their, theiragencies for, for food support,
young tradies families whohadn't traditionally needed
help, but they, they just don'thave the work that they had
before that costs are expensive.
(18:47):
Uh, they have to sometimeschoose, do they feed the kids or
do they pay the rent and, andthe bills.
And that's a, that's a reallyinvidious decision for any
family to have to make or asingle person living on their,
you know, on their own.
There's all sorts of challengesthere with the cost of living.
So, it would be good if thegovernment could perhaps step in
a little bit there.
I think it was a bitdisappointing that we didn't see
a lot of support in the lastbudget for, um, those sort of
(19:10):
challenges post-Covid and costof living.
Mitchell Denton (19:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, Steve, when it comes to foodwaste and sustainability, what's
on the horizon for SecondBite?
Where is your attention andresearch focusing the most right
now?
Steve Clifford (19:22):
Well, as I mentioned before, we, we are
very focused on trying to see ifwe can be do better at matching
demand with supply and justreally listen to see what it,
what are the needs of theagencies and the people they
serve, And can we work with ourdonors to try and match that up
a bit better than we have in thepast?
And part of the way that we'lldo that was with increased
technology, not just in thatspace.
(19:44):
I mean, if, if you said, Whatare we really focusing our
attention on right now?
Within the organisation, it'svery much about increasing our
IT capability, Uh, in our vans,where we've rolled out all sorts
of technology.
That means people aren't writingon clipboards anymore.
We can track what's going onwith the food coming in and food
going out a lot better than wecould in the past.
(20:05):
I think generally within ourorganisation we are moving to
bring in more technology just sowe can really be at the cutting
edge and really increase ourefficiency and effectiveness.
Mitchell Denton (20:16):
So continuing that thought.
Is there a particular group orinnovation within the industry
that you're excitedly keeping awatchful eye on?
Steve Clifford (20:23):
We try and keep our, our fingers on the pulse
for generally what's happeningin the sector.
And I think, uh, there'sprobably no specific area I'd
say there, in relation to aninnovation that we're excitedly
keeping watchful eye on.
I guess that's the, uh,innovation I mentioned before,
the National Food Donation TaxIncentive.
I think that will really be a,an incredible boost to the
organisation if we can get thegovernment involved on that
(20:45):
front to give a little bit moresupport.
We've also, as a collaborationbetween ourselves and Food Bank
and OzHarvest, suggested to thegovernment that we should have a
fixed amount put aside everyyear for basically looking after
the people who, not just whenthere's a, a Covid or a flood or
a bush fire, but day to day allthrough the year, people who are
food insecure.
(21:06):
To, to have a fund available to,to support them, and secondly,
as we realise that there aremore and more events and
emergencies and crises that,that occur in Australian life.
It seems to be an ongoing thingto have some funding put aside
by the federal government forthat so that we don't have to
wait each time an event becomes,uh, like a fire that we have to
(21:27):
sort of wait around while peopleare hungry, while the government
works out what they're gonna do.
So there's a couple of, uh,innovations there that we're,
we're kind of excited about forthe future.
Mitchell Denton (21:36):
Yeah.
Fantastic.
So Steve, we are coming to aclose, but before we do, I just
wanna ask, what is the numberone takeaway you really want the
listeners to absorb from thisepisode?
Steve Clifford (21:46):
I guess the main thing for me is firstly take,
uh, take account of the peoplein Australia, be, be a bit
empathetic towards the people inAustralia who are in that food
insecure group.
It's extraordinary to me that,you know, one in six Australians
probably approaching one infive, um, aren't guaranteed a
good meal every day.
That's extra, You know, thatshouldn't happen in a country
(22:08):
like ours.
And maybe part of the way we cando it day-to-day help towards
that is just as I mentionedbefore, thinking about when we
are doing our own buying.
Make sure that we're, you know,in our own homes, minimising the
waste that we, uh, that we putback into that landfill.
Mitchell Denton (22:23):
Absolutely.
Well, that's all for today'sepisode of"Let's Talk Farm to
Fork".
Thanks for listening and thankyou, Steve for joining me today.
Steve Clifford (22:31):
Thanks, Mitch.
Pleasure.
Mitchell Denton (22:32):
For any listeners who would like to know
more about Steve and SecondBite,check out the link in the
description of this episode.
Make sure to subscribe to thepodcast so that you never miss
an episode, and don't forget toleave a review and share with
your friends.
Until next time, you've beenlistening to"Let's Talk Farm to
Fork", a PostHarvest podcast.
Voiceover (22:49):
We appreciate you joining us for this episode of
let's talk, farm to fork, besure to rate, review and
subscribe.
Also, if you would like to learnmore about how you can
practically play your part inmaximizing fruit and vegetable
supplies, whether you're asupplier, consumer, or anyone in
between the farm to forkjourney, visit PostHarvest.Com
(23:12):
and try out their free onlinecourse library today.
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