April 28, 2025 • 43 mins
When you picture a successful fundraiser, do you imagine someone who commands the room, speaks eloquently without hesitation, and thrives in crowds of donors? That stereotype has dominated our field for decades—but what if the most powerful fundraising superpower isn't being heard, but truly hearing others?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE and advancement officer at Simon Fraser University, challenges this outdated notion through her remarkable career journey. Recognized as a Top 30 Under 30 by BC Business and Woman of the Year rising star, she's built meaningful donor relationships not by dominating conversations, but through the quiet strength of deep listening and genuine connection.
This eye-opening conversation explores how fundraising environments often favor extroverts—from rapid-fire brainstorming sessions to expectations around networking—and offers practical strategies for both introverts navigating these spaces and organizations wanting to support them. Discover the critical distinction between introversion and shyness, and why assuming quiet team members can't handle donor relationships might mean you're overlooking your most effective relationship builders.
Carissa shares powerful examples of how listening transformed challenging donor interactions, built lasting trust, and ultimately secured significant gifts. For introverted fundraisers who've wondered if they belong in this field, her message resonates with validating clarity: your quieter approach isn't just valid—it might be exactly what today's donors are seeking.
Whether you identify as an introvert seeking strategies, an extrovert wanting to better support colleagues, or a leader building a balanced team, this conversation offers invaluable insights about embracing diverse fundraising styles. Connect with Carissa on LinkedIn to continue this important conversation about making space for all voices in our profession.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Keith Greer, CFRE (00:05):
Hey, there, hi, and welcome back ambitious
fundraisers.
Today we're diving into a topicthat doesn't always get the
spotlight in our sectorfundraising as an introvert.
Now, if you've ever felt likethis field was built for the
boldest voices in the room,you're not alone.
But here's the thing Some ofthe most powerful fundraisers,
the ones who build the deepestdonor relationships, who truly
(00:27):
listen and connect, areintroverts.
Our guest today is someone whoknows this firsthand.
She's built a successful careernot by being the loudest in the
room, but by embracing thestrengths that come with being a
quieter, more thoughtfulpresence.
A quieter, more thoughtfulpresence.
She's here to share howintroverts can thrive in
fundraising, lead effectivelyand redefine what success looks
(00:54):
like.
So let's talk fundraising.
I'm excited to welcome myfriend, carissa Konesky.
Carissa is a CFRE and is anadvancement officer for the
leadership giving team at SimonFraser University in British
Columbia, canada.
With a background in genderstudies, psychology and
nonprofit management, she spenther career building meaningful
(01:14):
donor relationships.
She's been recognized as a top30 under 30 by BC Business and a
Woman of the Year rising starBeyond fundraising.
She's a dedicated girl guideand a passionate advocate for
making space for introvertedprofessionals in our field.
Carissa, welcome to let's TalkFundraising.
I'm so excited to have thisconversation with you.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (01:35):
Yeah, Hi Keith.
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here.
Keith Greer, CFRE (01:39):
Now, Carissa, you've described introversion
as a superpower in fundraising.
Can you share a moment in yourcareer when being an introvert
gave you that real advantage?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (01:49):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
As an introvert, one qualitythat I really have is building
relationships and kind of beinglike a peacekeeper and trying to
, you know, just build thattrust between donors.
And in a previous job that Ihad, our department was the one
(02:09):
that got all of the kind ofincoming calls in the general
donor inquiries that would comein.
And the inquiries we got werevery everyday, so it could be
anything from donors being upsetthat they didn't get their tax
receipt to like due to thenature of the work that we were
doing, there was a lot of reallystrong opinions about the way
(02:30):
that we were running ourprograms and how we should be
running our programs.
So we'd get a lot of likeinquiries about that.
And as I was, you know, takingthese phone calls, which at
first made me really nervousbecause having those incoming
calls come in you really don'tknow what you're going to get
but I found that I got reallygood at de-escalating these
(02:52):
phone calls really quicklybecause I realized that the
thing that most people wantedwas just to be like listened to
and understood and it reallydidn't matter like what actions
we took or like we weren't goingto change our programs, because
we really believed in theprograms we were running.
But they really just wanted usto like.
They really wanted to feel likewe were valuing their opinions
(03:14):
and the fact that they werecalling in the first place
showed that they cared.
So I realized that most peoplejust really wanted to be
listened to, and a lot of peoplethese days don't really get the
opportunity to be listened to.
So I think having the abilityto be such a deep listener and
give people that space to sharetheir concerns really helps me
(03:35):
build a lot of trust with mydonors and even though I have
quite a different job now, itreally has.
I've been able to use thoseskills in similar ways, either
when hearing donor concerns orbuilding that trust.
It's just been reallytransferable and it was really a
surprise to me to thinkmanaging those donor inquiries
(04:00):
and everything that me being anintrovert was actually what
helped me the most through that.
Keith Greer, CFRE (04:10):
I love what you're saying about getting
those phone calls and havingthem just be kind of whatever
happens.
But really, at the heart of it,it was listening to people
de-escalating the situations andI've talked about it on the
podcast before One of the thingsthat I learned when I was
working at Disney because thatskill, as an extrovert, is not
necessarily one that comesquickly and easily to me.
So it was a skill I had to learn.
But they talked about at Disneymaking the relationships last
(04:34):
and how did you do that?
And it was the L-A-S-T listen,apologize, solve and think.
And so it's really about makingsure that people felt like they
were heard, making sure thatthey were valued and letting
them know that you're actuallytruly sorry for their experience
, solving it quickly andthanking them for bringing it to
your attention, and so that'sprobably something that you, as
(04:55):
an introvert, do much morenaturally than I do, because I
want to jump right past thelistening and past the
apologizing and just getting tosolving and faking it, and
that's a like just no, you gotto last.
It can't just be the at the endof it.
But you've written also abouthow leadership isn't about who
(05:15):
speaks the loudest or the mostoften.
From your perspective, what arethe most valuable leadership
traits in fundraising?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (05:22):
Yeah, first of all, I really
appreciate you mentioning thatlistening is a hard skill,
because a lot of times I thinkthat it's not really thought of
as even a skill.
Like listening is justsomething that we would do
naturally, whereas somethinglike public speaking or being
able to kind of talk to a roomwould be a lot more valued.
But active listening is reallyhard and it's a really hard
(05:46):
skill.
And, like you mentioned, howmany times do we listen to
people just to respond ratherthan actually like hearing what
they say?
So I really do think that,while good leaders come in so
many different forms, the bestleaders and the best supervisors
that I have had have been theones who have actually taken the
time to listen.
(06:06):
And I think that that'sespecially important in
fundraising, because it is areally difficult job and it's
not like a one size fits allkind of job where there's one
way to do your job, there's somany different circumstances,
there's so many differentpersonalities and really no
situation and no donor is thesame.
So I think that having a leaderwho really listens to the
(06:29):
perspective of their fundraisers, offering the advice, but also
having the empathy andunderstanding everything that
comes with the toughness of thejob.
Those have been the leadersthat I have found really
valuable, and also the leadersthat I've found really valuable
and also the leaders that I'vefound really hard to find.
I find that when you have asupervisor that will really
listen and really empathize andbe open to hearing feedback from
(06:55):
their employees, that's justnot something that you find in
every leader and I reallyappreciate having that skill
being valued.
Oh, it's absolutely a valuedskill and it's one that I know I
have.
Keith Greer, CFRE (07:04):
That skill being valued.
Oh, it's absolutely a valuedskill and it's one that I know I
have to work on constantly, soI'm jealous that it comes
naturally to introverts like youand as one of your core
strengths.
Can you share a time when trulylistening to a donor made a
lasting impact really on yourrelationship with them.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (07:22):
Yeah, actually, this happened a couple
of months ago.
So I had reached out to meetwith a donor for coffee, and he
was a longtime donor of SFU buthe had recently been assigned to
my portfolio, so it was thefirst time that I had met with
him and the coffee ended upbeing over an hour and a half
and I would say he actuallyended up doing most of the
(07:44):
talking.
And I'm not saying that this isthe right way to be a
fundraiser, but this is my styleof being a fundraiser.
That's really worked for me.
I don't go trying to, you know,sell a donor something or
wanting to like close a giftagreement right away, but rather
I just want to listen and learnand understand, like, where
their interest in giving andwhat their passion is.
(08:07):
So he did come to me with likesome concerns, as well as a lot
of background about why he givesto the programs that he does.
But I learned a lot and it wasactually like a really great
experience.
Even though he did have thoseconcerns, you could tell that he
was just really passionateabout giving to SFU and he
really wanted SFU to be the bestthat it could be.
And then, after the meeting hesent me an email and he said I
(08:31):
really don't know like what Iexpected from this meeting, but
I felt so listened to and likemy opinion was so valued and I
was really pleasantly surprised.
And that email was amazing toreceive.
But it also really kind of blewmy mind.
I was like, hmm, maybe there isa method to this kind of
(08:52):
madness and maybe people do needto be listened to more and that
is a really important skill infundraising.
Keith Greer, CFRE (08:59):
That's really beautiful, that you are able to
listen to him and validate hisconcerns.
And in the next message you gotfrom him, he validated your
approach, and that's such awonderful gift to be able to
have and to really take the timeto listen to what his heart was
saying, even if the wordsweren't there yet.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (09:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, it really kind of showsthe impact that even just being
a listening ear can be tosomebody.
Keith Greer, CFRE (09:28):
And I really appreciate that you're saying
don't sell it right away,because I think so many of us
measure our successes by, ortake even our metrics not even
the successes, but take ourmetrics based on the quantity
rather than on the quality,because it is such an
identifiable, tangible thing tomeasure quantity instead of the
(09:50):
depth and the impact of thatconversation, and so many
fundraising teams measure theirevent successes by how many
conversations they have in anight.
How do you think we shouldreally be defining that success,
especially for maybeintroverted fundraisers?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (10:04):
Yeah, I think it's really a matter of
kind of quality over quantity,and I know a lot of us
fundraisers.
We want to reach as many donorsor prospective donors as we can
, especially when we have thoseopportunities to be like front
facing and talk to somebody inperson, and that's totally great
and important.
And we all have ourquantitative fundraising goals
(10:25):
that we need to reach that are alot easier to, you know,
demonstrate to our workplacethat we're reaching.
But when I go to a donor eventor an event that SFU is putting
on, I love to spend more timewith just a few donors and
though I maybe haven't talked toas many donors as some of my
other fellow fundraisers have, Ihave always come away with some
(10:48):
really strong relationships.
And one thing that I foundreally helpful has been being
able to remember those kind oflike little things that donors
mention.
So, for example, if I'm talkingto a donor and they're like, oh
, my son's birthday is next weekand we're planning this party,
then I can remember that and thenext week be like oh, I'm so
glad to, I was so glad to meetyou and I really hope your son's
(11:10):
birthday went well.
So even those little thingsshow that you really care and
are really listening to them andthen just yeah, taking the time
to show donors that you careand build those lasting
relationships.
It's really paid off for methis year and I've actually
managed to close some pretty bigdonor deals, but it is really a
matter of patience and takingthe time to really build that
(11:33):
trust in those relationships.
Keith Greer, CFRE (11:35):
Oh, patience.
I wish I had more of them.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (11:38):
Honestly me too, even still.
Keith Greer, CFRE (11:42):
But paying attention to the details is
really important.
I think that's another areawhere introverts really kind of
take the cake, like they knowhow to focus in on those details
and make people really feelcared about.
But you've also pointed outthat many workplaces are set up
to favor extroverts.
What are small but meaningfulchanges that organizations can
(12:03):
make to help introverted teammembers really thrive?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (12:06):
Yeah, there's so many ways that
introverts can thrive in aworkplace and it doesn't really
take that much effort to make ithappen.
It's just these little changesthat you don't really even think
about until someone mentions itor somebody points it out.
I think one thing that reallyhelped me was the move to hybrid
work, and I understand that noteveryone can do that or if
(12:29):
that's accessible to everyone,but for me it's really allowed
me to balance, like the me timeto kind of recharge and then
also my time to still be able toconnect with my donors and my
fellow employees.
That's been really important tome.
One thing that I found I'vereally struggled with as an
introvert has been the way thatlike group brainstorm sessions
(12:52):
or like strategic sessions withworkplaces are often set up so a
lot of people will think outloud, so like brainstorm out
loud and want to bounce ideasoff one another.
But for me, I know that I needthe time to process those things
in my head.
So if somebody asks me aquestion, I need a few minutes
to kind of think it through andreally think about what I want
(13:15):
to say, which is great.
But oftentimes in thosebrainstorming sessions they move
so quickly.
By the time I'm like I have anidea, I'm ready to share it.
Everyone has moved on to thenext idea.
So something that's been reallyhelpful for me is either being
sent the questions in advance soI have time to like
pre-brainstorm those ideas ormake some notes on those ideas
(13:36):
either that, or like sending outan agenda ahead of time and
letting people actually take thenotes ahead of time.
My fundraising team does thatnow as well, so I have those
talking points when we're doingour check-ins already and I
don't really need the time topre-think about it.
Another thing I really recommendis being okay with silence
(13:59):
during meetings or groupdiscussions.
When somebody asks a questionout loud and a lot of people
have had their turn to speak andyou know that some people in
the group still haven't spoken,being okay with having that
silence, even though it can bereally uncomfortable.
That gives the introverts amoment to think and also to
(14:19):
speak without feeling like theyhave to talk over maybe some of
the louder voices in the group.
That has been really helpful.
Another thing that I foundreally helpful and this can be
with either Zoom meetings oronline meetings or in-person
meetings would be asking peopleto raise their hands before they
talk.
When you have those kind ofpopcorn style brainstorming
(14:40):
meetings, I personally and thisis definitely not everybody, but
for me I find it difficult tocut in or I get nervous about
having to talk over somebody.
I get nervous about having totalk over somebody.
So even the method of likehaving people raise their hand
and the group facilitatorcalling on people, that can help
make the conversation a lotmore comfortable.
And then, finally, justrecognizing if people need their
(15:03):
space, especially during lunchhour.
I used to work in anorganization where the
expectation was that everyonewould go down to the cafeteria
to eat lunch together, becauseit was thought to be like staff
bonding, which is great and alot of people loved it.
But for me it was so hardbecause I really needed that
hour or so to really recharge.
(15:23):
And you know, go for a walk,get some fresh air and just get
my thoughts back together.
So I think just understandingthat people recharge differently
.
Outside of fundraising, I alsovolunteer a lot with Girl Guides
, which is our Canadian versionof Girl Scouts, and we're
noticing that a lot more withthe teens I work with.
Some of them will just besitting off in the corner and at
(15:45):
first we were worried that theyweren't feeling included or
they were upset, but we realizedthey really just needed some
space away from all of.
We have 18 girls so it's a lotof noise and sometimes they just
need space.
And one fellow Girl Guy leadershe said to me is it bothering
(16:05):
them or is it bothering you?
And I realized that even thoughI am an introvert, I still felt
bad about the people who neededto step aside and recharge.
So just kind of recognizingthat that looks a little bit
differently for everyone.
Keith Greer, CFRE (16:19):
I think those are some amazing tips.
A couple questions, and sowe're just going to kind of go
through them a little bit, oneby one.
But when you're talking aboutobserving that people are
getting to take some space andyou got the feedback of is it
something that's bothering youor is it something that's
bothering them, do you go and doyou check in with the people
(16:41):
who are taking space or do youjust kind of assume that they're
taking space because they needit?
What's the best way to approachthat?
What's the best way to approachthat?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (16:48):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I think if it's somebody thatyou know is an introvert and
does need that space, I wouldsay that it's safe to assume
that that's what they're doingand that's what they're needing
right now, and maybe giving themsome time to recharge and if
they do need some help or needsomeone to talk, to letting them
approach you in that moment.
(17:09):
Especially with adults, I thinkthat it's okay to kind of
assume that they'll be able totell you what they need.
When I work with kids, wedefinitely do check in a little
bit more with them just to makesure that nothing's wrong.
But also I found that they doprefer us.
Once we do that one time and weunderstand more like what they
(17:29):
need.
They do prefer them eithercoming to us or us more so
ignoring it rather than comingto them and drawing attention to
them doing that.
Keith Greer, CFRE (17:38):
I really like that initial check-in on
somebody that you might not knowvery well and maybe just having
the conversation to say, hey,if I look at you and you just
want some space, give me athumbs up or whatever.
It is just so I know you'reokay and if you're having some
trouble, just give me a thumbsdown or something, and then I
know to come, come help you orsomething along those lines.
(17:59):
But also with raising yourhands, I can imagine that Zoom
has been kind of a blessing indisguise with that, because it's
kind of a best practice,because it's it's so much easier
for things to go chaotic andout of control over Zoom when
people are jumping in on top ofeach other, but having that
(18:19):
raise hand feature must be superhelpful.
Do you also implement that inyour in person meetings as well?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (18:26):
First of all, zoom has been such a good
blessing in disguise.
I know there's been a lot ofgrowing pains and we're still
trying to figure out technology,like five years after we first
started using it.
But not only is the handraising great, the chat feature
is also great.
I've found sometimes if I'm ina bigger meeting with a hundred
people and I don't feelcomfortable raising my hand in
(18:47):
that moment, even just typing inthe chat is a lot less scary
for me, and then if thefacilitator raises the question
or points out what I said, thenI still feel like my voice has
been heard and I don't have totalk over all the people in the
room.
So that's been really great, Ithink.
In terms of doing it in person,sometimes we'll do things where,
(19:12):
like, we'll each be given aminute to say our opinion, which
has been really helpful becauseon my fundraising team we do
have a lot of differentpersonalities and we found
before we were doing that, justbecause of the nature of
everything, that meant that afew people were really
dominating those conversations.
So I think you know givingpeople that minute and saying
(19:32):
like oh, thank you so much forcontributing.
Let's see if somebody else hassomething to contribute.
It really like evens theplaying field and by doing that
to the introverts in the roomdon't feel like they need to
compete or be a louder voice.
It kind of just evens it out abit more.
Keith Greer, CFRE (19:49):
That's really great, and the last question I
had from all of your tips istalking about being okay with
the silence during the meetingsor the group discussions, and
maybe it's not so much as aquestion, but it's something
that I remember one of myleaders talking to me about
years ago and they said afteryou ask a question, count to 10
(20:11):
seconds in your head before youstart calling on people and
asking them, and it gives peoplea chance to kind of get their
thoughts out, have themcollected and formulate
something semi-coherent beforethey start to speak on it.
Is that something that you'refully advocating for as well?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (20:41):
Just taking that 10 seconds of
silence and really going withthe awkwardness of it, but it is
super important.
I've also facilitated someworkshops and I do understand
the urge to fill that silencebecause that's just not
something that you know peoplelike.
But I do highly advocate forthat and I think the 10 seconds
is a good rule and that doesgive other people time to like,
(21:05):
think and contribute and stuff.
And I would also encourage,even if you're not the
facilitator, if you're somebodywho does tend to be a more
dominant person in conversations, giving yourself that 10
seconds as well, rather thantrying to fill the silence all
the time and letting someoneelse speak.
Keith Greer, CFRE (21:21):
Okay, great.
So not just on the facilitatorside, but on the participant
side too.
Carissa Konesky, CFR (21:26):
Absolutely yeah, and I don't think people
mean any harm by this at all,and it is often people just
wanting to avoid that awkwardsilence or not wanting quieter
people to feel uncomfortable.
But I do think it is reallyimportant to do that, but it is
hard.
I do recognize that.
Keith Greer, CFRE (21:43):
Yeah, because I think that so many people
think that the quiet people areshy.
They assume that introversionand shyness are the exact same
thing.
How do you explain thedifference and why does that
distinction matter so much forfundraisers?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (21:56):
That is a great question and it is so
true.
I hear these words put togetherall the time, like that person
is so shy and quiet.
But those two things are notthe same and of course you can
be shy and quiet, but they don'tnecessarily go hand in hand all
the time.
I know people who talk a lotwho would consider themselves
(22:16):
shy.
Keith Greer, CFRE (22:16):
Hello that would be me.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (22:19):
Exactly and you would never think so.
It's just people show up in somany different ways and
introversion and extroversionreally just refers to how you
get your energy.
As introverts, we get ourrecharge energy by being alone
and the extroverts get theirenergy by being with other
people.
(22:40):
And it does not mean thatintroverts are scared to talk to
people or hesitant to talk topeople.
I actually don't considermyself to be a shy person at all
.
I've gone on multiple like grouptrips across like Canada and
the USA, having not known anyone, and I've still made lots of
friends.
So I think this is reallyimportant for fundraisers,
(23:01):
especially because there'salways an assumption that if
someone is not a very talkativeperson and they're shy, they
might be too shy to go on adonor meeting or they might not
be ready to be able to havethose conversations with donors.
So I think that it is reallyimportant to understand the
difference between those two.
I also think it's important notto make comments about that.
(23:24):
I have had so many commentsmade towards me throughout my
career and I know that thosecomments don't mean harm, but
they do make me feel reallyshrugged off.
So last year I ended up gettingthe big award from BC Business
and one of my colleagues wassaid what I can't believe it
Like you, quiet Carissa, so theydidn't mean harm, but it does
(23:49):
make me feel like my personalityand my skill set does not set
me up for success in the waythat others are, especially in
fundraising and leadership,where I want to be.
Keith Greer, CFRE (23:58):
I think what you're talking about with
introversion and shyness is areally important note, because,
well, I would definitelyconsider myself an extrovert.
There are moments when I can bevery shy, and for me the
shyness comes in more with largegroups and it comes in when I
(24:18):
feel very out of place with itright, whereas one-on-one I can
talk to anybody about anything.
You want to put me in a roomwith Oprah Winfrey or Bill Gates
or Hannibal Lecter I can make aconversation with any of them,
but put me into a room filledwith people like that and it
becomes very overwhelming and Iam definitely a wallflower in
(24:40):
those moments.
And so that kind of gets tonetworking events and big galas
and how they can be so drainingeven for extroverts.
How do you personally balancethat meaningful donor engagement
with preserving your energy?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (24:56):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned that
, keith, because I do believethat introversion and
extroversion is a spectrum.
I don't think that anyone is100% introverted and wants to be
by themselves all the time, andI also don't believe that
anyone wants to be with people100% of the time and never wants
their own time.
So I think it's a really goodpoint that it sometimes shows up
differently.
I know for me, the networkingevents and the big galas is when
(25:20):
I feel the most like anintrovert.
So the way that I kind ofmanage it is I try to break it
down into smaller goals.
So, rather than looking at thatbig room of donors or that big
room of people and thinking thatI need to talk to the whole
room, just prioritizing what oneor two donors do I really want
to talk to and build a furtherrelationship with tonight, and
(25:41):
breaking it down so that I justfocus on that and focus on
getting to know those one or twopeople.
Because, like you mentioned,I'm the same way.
I can talk to anybodyone-on-one and I have no problem
with that and I get to knowpeople really well.
But as soon as I'm with a groupof like 10 people, I'll
definitely take more of a stepback.
So being able to kind of likefind those one-on-one
(26:05):
conversations, even in such abig group, has been really
helpful to me.
And even if, like, more peoplejoin the conversation as we go
or they bring in more people forme to meet, like that's awesome
, but it's way less overwhelmingthan feeling like I have to
make conversation with everybodyall at once in the like two
hours that the event is going tobe.
(26:25):
And I also just want to saylike let's normalize, like
needing to take a few minutes.
I know that I put so muchpressure on myself at these
events that I need to make themost of the two hours and I need
my supervisor to see me talkingto donors all night long, but I
think it's okay.
Just to you know, either go tothe washroom and just like take
(26:47):
a recharge for a few minutes andlet yourself absorb the
information, or even just liketaking a few minutes and let
yourself absorb the information,or even just like taking a few
minutes to talk, even with acoworker.
I know that I have my.
One of my best friends is mycoworker and I feel really
comfortable with her.
So even just like having thechance to like debrief and talk
with her for a few minutes.
I find that that reallyrecharges me and makes me ready
(27:09):
to have that next conversation.
So that can be really helpful,and also even like dragging that
coworker into a conversation ora different coworker as well.
That way you can kind of likebounce off each other during
your conversations or help oneanother out when one's like
fading and their energy isfading.
That's also been really helpfulfor me.
Keith Greer, CFRE (27:31):
I really enjoyed what you were saying
about introversion andextroversion being on that
spectrum and how that shows upfor you, because for me it shows
up similarly but a little bitdifferent, where, if it's a
donor event I don't know what itis but I can be full on
extrovert, knowing that that'smy job.
It's almost become like aperformance for me and it's like
(27:53):
get out there and shine yourlight, whereas with networking
that one hits differently for meand it becomes much more
personal and much morevulnerable and I become much
shyer in those.
So I've had to develop somestrategies and some life hacks,
so to speak, in order to getthrough those moments.
One of the ones that has beenso valuable for me going to
(28:17):
those networking events is toshow up early, like before
everybody else, unfashionablyearly and go and find the very
best table in the entire roomand sit there and claim that,
because then everybody has tocome to you and ask for
permission to join your tableand then they're having to
introduce themselves to yourather than me having to go and
(28:40):
try and introduce myself to agroup of strangers that I don't
really know.
So I wonder, is there any otherkind of life hacks like that
that you might have found thathave really helped you kind of
navigate those waters.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (28:51):
Yeah, I remember you mentioning that and
I haven't had the chance to trythat out, but I'm definitely
going to, because I'm totallythe opposite I want to have like
the least amount of time at anetworking event, so I'll arrive
right on the hour.
But you're right, I do end uphaving to approach people that
way.
So I'm definitely going to tryit your way the next time as
well.
(29:15):
I think for me, if you have likeeither a colleague or somebody
that you know, either likefinding that person in the room
and not necessarily staying withthem the whole night, but using
them as a way, like I mentionedbefore, to bounce off
conversations or having themintroduce you to some people and
really just kind of being anicebreaker.
But I've also found that that'skind of gone both ways because,
(29:37):
depending on who the colleagueis, if they're a more talkative
person than me, sometimesthey'll end up dominating the
whole conversation as well.
So, if it is something that youdo feel comfortable with, I do
highly recommend trying to go toa networking event yourself.
If you don't have that personthat you think you can kind of
(29:58):
be yourself with and becomfortable speaking around, and
, yeah, like, even though it ispersonal, just kind of
remembering you don't have to beanybody but yourself, and I
think that that's something thatI'm still learning, because I
do feel a lot of pressure toperform in a certain way and
talk a certain amount that Idon't necessarily like feel that
(30:20):
is authentic to me in thesesituations, because I feel like
you know, a networker and afundraiser is supposed to look a
certain way.
Keith Greer, CFRE (30:27):
So I think just knowing that it's okay to
show up like how you feel isright for you, yeah, I really
like the tip about bringingsomebody that you can introduce
or that can be introduced,because that's another one of my
hacks that I found is beingthat person who introduces
people Even if you don't knowthe people that you're
introducing.
(30:47):
You kind of automatically takemore of an authority role within
those relationships and so itbecomes almost like you're the
master of ceremonies within thisconversation and it just makes
it a very different experience.
So I really like that.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (31:06):
Yeah, and I think that's such a big skill
too.
I know a few people who arereally really good connectors
and that's amazing.
Like I was at a networkingevent with somebody that I know
through volunteering and she gotme talking to like a lawyer and
all these people who I neverthought I'd be talking to.
So even that in themselves likeknowing someone like that is
(31:28):
very helpful.
Keith Greer, CFRE (31:29):
Absolutely, and I'm curious have you noticed
that certain donorpersonalities respond better
really to that introvertedapproach to fundraising, and how
should that shape the wayorganizations train their teams?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (31:40):
I don't think that there's necessarily a
one size fits all to this, butI've often found that myself and
some of my fellow introvertedcolleagues are really good at
working with donors who mightrequire that little bit of extra
attention or care Either adonor who has very specific
(32:03):
questions or very specificdesires of how we use their gift
, or those that maybe haverequired a little bit of a
longer time to close the giftagreement.
Or for us at SFU, we'll write aterms of reference to new
awards or scholarships that getdonated to.
(32:24):
So I found that I'm really goodat those situations, again
because I'm able to listen andalso mediate with them if there
isn't something, if they have arequest, that isn't something
that is possible for us to do.
I find that the way that I'mable to relay that to the donor
is pretty empathetic, andbecause I've learned so much
(32:45):
about them and why they'regiving, I'm kind of able to
pivot it in a different way orin a different light.
So that's been really helpful,and I'm not sure if this is
solely an introverted quality,but I find that my patience has
been really helpful too.
I've had gifts that have takenmore than a year for me to close
(33:06):
but, just like continuouslyhaving that dialogue with the
donors has helped me eventuallyclose those gifts as well.
I think, in terms of howorganizations train their team,
I think the biggest thing is tounderstand that good fundraisers
come in different forms andagain, there's really not a one
size fits all situation.
(33:28):
I have believed for a reallylong time that I couldn't be a
leader or I couldn't be asupervisor because of my certain
you know demeanor or the waythat I communicate.
Even this is outside of work.
But again, with Girl Guidesthat I volunteer with, I had
applied I think this was six orseven years ago now.
(33:50):
I had applied to be the chairof a committee that I'd given
three years of my time and I hadproven my dedication and I'd
planned these really largeevents.
And I remember reading an emailfrom someone saying that I was
super enthusiastic andhardworking but that I'm soft
spoken and that I could bestepped on and that was such a
(34:14):
big assumption because I've hadso many instances before where
I've had to stand up for myselfin the workplace and in other
areas of my life and I have notbeen stepped on.
So there was that assumptionthat I wasn't capable of taking
on that role just because I wasa quieter person.
So I think that teams reallyneed to make assumptions or not
(34:35):
make assumptions about people'sleadership abilities based on
how much they talk and when youare like looking for who to
promote or like who to take on asupervisor role, not just
automatically choosing like whothe loudest or who the strongest
spoken person is, because well,of course they can be good
supervisors, it doesn'tautomatically mean they're going
(34:57):
to be the best supervisor basedon that.
Keith Greer, CFRE (34:59):
Right.
And so when you're getting thatkind of feedback about
different leadership styles andfundraising styles and it's not
necessarily resonating with whoyou are can you share a time
when your quieter strengths,like empathy or attention to
detail, were truly valued andacknowledged?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (35:17):
I think the first time that I kind of
had a aha moment about all thesebiases that I'd had felt about
myself, I was taking an emergingleaders program.
We have like a really awesomeorganization here in Vancouver
that specifically works to helptrain womanidentified colleagues
(35:39):
into leadership positions.
So as part of that program wetook the CliftonStrengths test
and now I've taken it a fewtimes, but this was the first
time that I'd taken it and I'mnot sure how many people have
taken it.
But the test tells you whatyour top strengths are in four
different categories and, notsurprisingly, I scored mostly in
(36:01):
the relationship buildingcategories, categories which are
often, the more you know, softspoken, and not in the spotlight
categories.
And then, as we were debriefingwhat we kind of found our
results were and what ourleadership styles were, I had
this like what our leadershipstyles were.
(36:22):
I had this like light bulbmoment, a feeling that my skills
of being a relator or veryempathetic were not as valued in
the leadership spaces that Iwere part of as somebody who was
an activator or who was areally good public speaker.
And that does make sense to me.
I think that skills like youknow, listening and building
harmony are not easily noticedcompared to being a really good
(36:45):
public speaker, and I've neverhad anything on my work
evaluation saying that I'm greatat listening to donors or
anything like that.
But I just remember wheneveryone else was nodding when I
said that I didn't feel asvalued in my leadership
abilities because of thoseskills that I had, and then the
facilitator also being like, yes, like you hit the nail on the
(37:07):
head.
That's when I finally feltvalidated and like a lot of
things really made sense.
Keith Greer, CFRE (37:12):
You might not know this yet, but you are an
amazing public speaker.
But you are an amazing publicspeaker and even though we're
recording this before our Iconsession, which was just a few
days ago by the time that thisairs, I have full confidence in
you.
I think you're going to beabsolutely amazing, and so I
want to invite anybody thatattended our session at Icon to
(37:34):
connect with Carissa on LinkedIn.
We'll put her profile in theshow notes and just tell her
what an amazing job she did,because I know she's going to
knock it out of the park andit's weird talking about the
future in the past tense, butthat's where we are, because I
know you're going to be amazing.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (37:51):
Thank you , keith.
I really, really appreciate itand I think you're such a great
example of how important it isto really uplift people and
focus on people's strength andencourage people to do what they
want to do, and I reallyappreciate all the encouragement
that you've given me.
It's really helped me so much.
Keith Greer, CFRE (38:08):
Well, it's not so much as encouragement as
just recognizing what an amazingperson you are, because you're
pretty dang phenomenal, I mustsay.
But thank you for mycompliments too.
For our last question, becauseI know we're getting close on
our time.
For introverts who are juststarting their fundraising
careers, what's the one piece ofadvice you wish someone had
(38:30):
given you when you were startingout?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (38:32):
You know, I've often wondered why I'm so
passionate about fundraising andwhy I love it so much when I
identify as an introvert.
But then I realized thatfundraising is really all about
building relationships, andbuilding relationships does not
mean being the loudest person inthe room or being the one who
talks the most, and I reallywant my fellow introverted, like
(38:54):
fundraisers, to know that theybelong in fundraising and
leadership spaces.
I know, keith, we actually metthrough attending the AFP
Leadership Institute and beforeI attended I actually got
worried about whether I wasgoing to be too quiet or even if
, like AFP would regretaccepting me into the program
just because I wasn't, you know,as talkative as some of like
(39:16):
the other people that I knewwere going to be in that space.
So I just really wanted to givethe reinsurance that leadership
and fundraising shows up in somany different ways and there
really isn't a right or wrongway to do that.
And then, finally, introvertsbring amazing skills and they're
just as valuable as otherskills and you belong as a
(39:37):
fundraiser just as much asanyone else.
Keith Greer, CFRE (39:40):
So true, and I want to say just a little bit
about my reflections on the AFPLeadership Institute.
And it was really impressive tome the way that we brought in
so many people who are verystrong extroverts and people who
are very strong introverts andthe way that they were able to
navigate a week together and howsome of those voices definitely
(40:04):
took prominence in thebeginning of the week, but by
the midpoint of the week and theend of the week some of those
people were getting worn outfrom having to carry the
conversation and that's whenintroverts were really able to
step up.
I think that they got to thepoint where they felt
comfortable with the people thatthey were surrounded by and a
part of.
(40:25):
They knew that their voiceswould be respected and
appreciated and heard and youdidn't shy away from that.
You were an incrediblecontributor and, along with
everybody else, it was such anamazing experience and I hope
that AFP gets to continue theLeadership Institute because it
(40:45):
was really an incredibleexperience.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (40:47):
Yeah, it was really like nothing else
that I've ever attended, and thewhole reason they put that
together is to have a place forfundraisers to become leaders,
and I just don't think that thatresource has been available
before.
So I agree, and I also think itwas really valuable the way
that they set it up so that boththe extroverts and the
introverts could contribute.
(41:07):
I know, at the beginning, whenwe came up with the rules for
how we were all going tocommunicate together, I
literally said, like we need togive space to the introverts and
like let them talk as well, andour facilitators were so good
at, you know, making that spaceor realizing, maybe, when some
other voices might want tocontribute to the conversation
(41:27):
as well.
Keith Greer, CFRE (41:29):
And being able to draw those voices out
too.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (41:31):
Exactly.
Yeah, no, it was amazing and Iwas actually quite surprised at
how comfortable I wascontributing, especially in a
room full of 24 people that youdid not know at all before the
week began 24 intimidatingpeople because they're all doing
amazing things.
I know I can't believe how manyremarkable, accomplished people
were in one room that week.
Keith Greer, CFRE (41:52):
Yeah, it was special, and I'm so glad that we
get to continue theserelationships afterwards,
because they're really importantto me and I think that they're
important to you as well, or youwouldn't be here.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (42:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
They're invaluable, thoserelationships that you form, and
I think that fundraisers, likeI mentioned, we do have such a
unique job that has so manyfactors that maybe a lot of
other jobs don't have.
So being able to talk to peoplewho can relate and share their
experience is so valuable.
Keith Greer, CFRE (42:20):
Well, carissa , thank you so much for being on
the podcast and sharing yourexpertise and your wisdom and
your passion about introversionand fundraising and how it
really is a superpower, becauseyou have listening skills that I
have to work on that comenaturally to you.
So thank you for being here andthank you for being such an
important part of my experience.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (42:41):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me,
keith.
This was so fun and, yeah, Ithink the most important thing
is that introverts andextroverts still have so much to
learn from one another and canwork really well together and
share their skills together, andI'm so excited to see that keep
happening.
Keith Greer, CFRE (42:57):
Absolutely, and if you were able to attend
our Icon Session, make sure togive Carissa a follow and tell
her what an amazing job she did,because she's a rock star.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (43:06):
Aw, thank you, Keith.
Keith Greer, CFRE (43:07):
Have a great one.
We'll catch you later.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (43:09):
Yeah, take care, bye, bye.
Hey, there, hi, and welcome back ambitious
fundraisers.
Today we're diving into a topicthat doesn't always get the
spotlight in our sectorfundraising as an introvert.
Now, if you've ever felt likethis field was built for the
boldest voices in the room,you're not alone.
But here's the thing Some ofthe most powerful fundraisers,
the ones who build the deepestdonor relationships, who truly
(00:27):
listen and connect, areintroverts.
Our guest today is someone whoknows this firsthand.
She's built a successful careernot by being the loudest in the
room, but by embracing thestrengths that come with being a
quieter, more thoughtfulpresence.
A quieter, more thoughtfulpresence.
She's here to share howintroverts can thrive in
fundraising, lead effectivelyand redefine what success looks
(00:54):
like.
So let's talk fundraising.
I'm excited to welcome myfriend, carissa Konesky.
Carissa is a CFRE and is anadvancement officer for the
leadership giving team at SimonFraser University in British
Columbia, canada.
With a background in genderstudies, psychology and
nonprofit management, she spenther career building meaningful
(01:14):
donor relationships.
She's been recognized as a top30 under 30 by BC Business and a
Woman of the Year rising starBeyond fundraising.
She's a dedicated girl guideand a passionate advocate for
making space for introvertedprofessionals in our field.
Carissa, welcome to let's TalkFundraising.
I'm so excited to have thisconversation with you.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (01:35):
Yeah, Hi Keith.
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here.
Keith Greer, CFRE (01:39):
Now, Carissa, you've described introversion
as a superpower in fundraising.
Can you share a moment in yourcareer when being an introvert
gave you that real advantage?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (01:49):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
As an introvert, one qualitythat I really have is building
relationships and kind of beinglike a peacekeeper and trying to
, you know, just build thattrust between donors.
And in a previous job that Ihad, our department was the one
(02:09):
that got all of the kind ofincoming calls in the general
donor inquiries that would comein.
And the inquiries we got werevery everyday, so it could be
anything from donors being upsetthat they didn't get their tax
receipt to like due to thenature of the work that we were
doing, there was a lot of reallystrong opinions about the way
(02:30):
that we were running ourprograms and how we should be
running our programs.
So we'd get a lot of likeinquiries about that.
And as I was, you know, takingthese phone calls, which at
first made me really nervousbecause having those incoming
calls come in you really don'tknow what you're going to get
but I found that I got reallygood at de-escalating these
(02:52):
phone calls really quicklybecause I realized that the
thing that most people wantedwas just to be like listened to
and understood and it reallydidn't matter like what actions
we took or like we weren't goingto change our programs, because
we really believed in theprograms we were running.
But they really just wanted usto like.
They really wanted to feel likewe were valuing their opinions
(03:14):
and the fact that they werecalling in the first place
showed that they cared.
So I realized that most peoplejust really wanted to be
listened to, and a lot of peoplethese days don't really get the
opportunity to be listened to.
So I think having the abilityto be such a deep listener and
give people that space to sharetheir concerns really helps me
(03:35):
build a lot of trust with mydonors and even though I have
quite a different job now, itreally has.
I've been able to use thoseskills in similar ways, either
when hearing donor concerns orbuilding that trust.
It's just been reallytransferable and it was really a
surprise to me to thinkmanaging those donor inquiries
(04:00):
and everything that me being anintrovert was actually what
helped me the most through that.
Keith Greer, CFRE (04:10):
I love what you're saying about getting
those phone calls and havingthem just be kind of whatever
happens.
But really, at the heart of it,it was listening to people
de-escalating the situations andI've talked about it on the
podcast before One of the thingsthat I learned when I was
working at Disney because thatskill, as an extrovert, is not
necessarily one that comesquickly and easily to me.
So it was a skill I had to learn.
But they talked about at Disneymaking the relationships last
(04:34):
and how did you do that?
And it was the L-A-S-T listen,apologize, solve and think.
And so it's really about makingsure that people felt like they
were heard, making sure thatthey were valued and letting
them know that you're actuallytruly sorry for their experience
, solving it quickly andthanking them for bringing it to
your attention, and so that'sprobably something that you, as
(04:55):
an introvert, do much morenaturally than I do, because I
want to jump right past thelistening and past the
apologizing and just getting tosolving and faking it, and
that's a like just no, you gotto last.
It can't just be the at the endof it.
But you've written also abouthow leadership isn't about who
(05:15):
speaks the loudest or the mostoften.
From your perspective, what arethe most valuable leadership
traits in fundraising?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (05:22):
Yeah, first of all, I really
appreciate you mentioning thatlistening is a hard skill,
because a lot of times I thinkthat it's not really thought of
as even a skill.
Like listening is justsomething that we would do
naturally, whereas somethinglike public speaking or being
able to kind of talk to a roomwould be a lot more valued.
But active listening is reallyhard and it's a really hard
(05:46):
skill.
And, like you mentioned, howmany times do we listen to
people just to respond ratherthan actually like hearing what
they say?
So I really do think that,while good leaders come in so
many different forms, the bestleaders and the best supervisors
that I have had have been theones who have actually taken the
time to listen.
(06:06):
And I think that that'sespecially important in
fundraising, because it is areally difficult job and it's
not like a one size fits allkind of job where there's one
way to do your job, there's somany different circumstances,
there's so many differentpersonalities and really no
situation and no donor is thesame.
So I think that having a leaderwho really listens to the
(06:29):
perspective of their fundraisers, offering the advice, but also
having the empathy andunderstanding everything that
comes with the toughness of thejob.
Those have been the leadersthat I have found really
valuable, and also the leadersthat I've found really valuable
and also the leaders that I'vefound really hard to find.
I find that when you have asupervisor that will really
listen and really empathize andbe open to hearing feedback from
(06:55):
their employees, that's justnot something that you find in
every leader and I reallyappreciate having that skill
being valued.
Oh, it's absolutely a valuedskill and it's one that I know I
have.
Keith Greer, CFRE (07:04):
That skill being valued.
Oh, it's absolutely a valuedskill and it's one that I know I
have to work on constantly, soI'm jealous that it comes
naturally to introverts like youand as one of your core
strengths.
Can you share a time when trulylistening to a donor made a
lasting impact really on yourrelationship with them.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (07:22):
Yeah, actually, this happened a couple
of months ago.
So I had reached out to meetwith a donor for coffee, and he
was a longtime donor of SFU buthe had recently been assigned to
my portfolio, so it was thefirst time that I had met with
him and the coffee ended upbeing over an hour and a half
and I would say he actuallyended up doing most of the
(07:44):
talking.
And I'm not saying that this isthe right way to be a
fundraiser, but this is my styleof being a fundraiser.
That's really worked for me.
I don't go trying to, you know,sell a donor something or
wanting to like close a giftagreement right away, but rather
I just want to listen and learnand understand, like, where
their interest in giving andwhat their passion is.
(08:07):
So he did come to me with likesome concerns, as well as a lot
of background about why he givesto the programs that he does.
But I learned a lot and it wasactually like a really great
experience.
Even though he did have thoseconcerns, you could tell that he
was just really passionateabout giving to SFU and he
really wanted SFU to be the bestthat it could be.
And then, after the meeting hesent me an email and he said I
(08:31):
really don't know like what Iexpected from this meeting, but
I felt so listened to and likemy opinion was so valued and I
was really pleasantly surprised.
And that email was amazing toreceive.
But it also really kind of blewmy mind.
I was like, hmm, maybe there isa method to this kind of
(08:52):
madness and maybe people do needto be listened to more and that
is a really important skill infundraising.
Keith Greer, CFRE (08:59):
That's really beautiful, that you are able to
listen to him and validate hisconcerns.
And in the next message you gotfrom him, he validated your
approach, and that's such awonderful gift to be able to
have and to really take the timeto listen to what his heart was
saying, even if the wordsweren't there yet.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (09:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, it really kind of showsthe impact that even just being
a listening ear can be tosomebody.
Keith Greer, CFRE (09:28):
And I really appreciate that you're saying
don't sell it right away,because I think so many of us
measure our successes by, ortake even our metrics not even
the successes, but take ourmetrics based on the quantity
rather than on the quality,because it is such an
identifiable, tangible thing tomeasure quantity instead of the
(09:50):
depth and the impact of thatconversation, and so many
fundraising teams measure theirevent successes by how many
conversations they have in anight.
How do you think we shouldreally be defining that success,
especially for maybeintroverted fundraisers?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (10:04):
Yeah, I think it's really a matter of
kind of quality over quantity,and I know a lot of us
fundraisers.
We want to reach as many donorsor prospective donors as we can
, especially when we have thoseopportunities to be like front
facing and talk to somebody inperson, and that's totally great
and important.
And we all have ourquantitative fundraising goals
(10:25):
that we need to reach that are alot easier to, you know,
demonstrate to our workplacethat we're reaching.
But when I go to a donor eventor an event that SFU is putting
on, I love to spend more timewith just a few donors and
though I maybe haven't talked toas many donors as some of my
other fellow fundraisers have, Ihave always come away with some
(10:48):
really strong relationships.
And one thing that I foundreally helpful has been being
able to remember those kind oflike little things that donors
mention.
So, for example, if I'm talkingto a donor and they're like, oh
, my son's birthday is next weekand we're planning this party,
then I can remember that and thenext week be like oh, I'm so
glad to, I was so glad to meetyou and I really hope your son's
(11:10):
birthday went well.
So even those little thingsshow that you really care and
are really listening to them andthen just yeah, taking the time
to show donors that you careand build those lasting
relationships.
It's really paid off for methis year and I've actually
managed to close some pretty bigdonor deals, but it is really a
matter of patience and takingthe time to really build that
(11:33):
trust in those relationships.
Keith Greer, CFRE (11:35):
Oh, patience.
I wish I had more of them.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (11:38):
Honestly me too, even still.
Keith Greer, CFRE (11:42):
But paying attention to the details is
really important.
I think that's another areawhere introverts really kind of
take the cake, like they knowhow to focus in on those details
and make people really feelcared about.
But you've also pointed outthat many workplaces are set up
to favor extroverts.
What are small but meaningfulchanges that organizations can
(12:03):
make to help introverted teammembers really thrive?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (12:06):
Yeah, there's so many ways that
introverts can thrive in aworkplace and it doesn't really
take that much effort to make ithappen.
It's just these little changesthat you don't really even think
about until someone mentions itor somebody points it out.
I think one thing that reallyhelped me was the move to hybrid
work, and I understand that noteveryone can do that or if
(12:29):
that's accessible to everyone,but for me it's really allowed
me to balance, like the me timeto kind of recharge and then
also my time to still be able toconnect with my donors and my
fellow employees.
That's been really important tome.
One thing that I found I'vereally struggled with as an
introvert has been the way thatlike group brainstorm sessions
(12:52):
or like strategic sessions withworkplaces are often set up so a
lot of people will think outloud, so like brainstorm out
loud and want to bounce ideasoff one another.
But for me, I know that I needthe time to process those things
in my head.
So if somebody asks me aquestion, I need a few minutes
to kind of think it through andreally think about what I want
(13:15):
to say, which is great.
But oftentimes in thosebrainstorming sessions they move
so quickly.
By the time I'm like I have anidea, I'm ready to share it.
Everyone has moved on to thenext idea.
So something that's been reallyhelpful for me is either being
sent the questions in advance soI have time to like
pre-brainstorm those ideas ormake some notes on those ideas
(13:36):
either that, or like sending outan agenda ahead of time and
letting people actually take thenotes ahead of time.
My fundraising team does thatnow as well, so I have those
talking points when we're doingour check-ins already and I
don't really need the time topre-think about it.
Another thing I really recommendis being okay with silence
(13:59):
during meetings or groupdiscussions.
When somebody asks a questionout loud and a lot of people
have had their turn to speak andyou know that some people in
the group still haven't spoken,being okay with having that
silence, even though it can bereally uncomfortable.
That gives the introverts amoment to think and also to
(14:19):
speak without feeling like theyhave to talk over maybe some of
the louder voices in the group.
That has been really helpful.
Another thing that I foundreally helpful and this can be
with either Zoom meetings oronline meetings or in-person
meetings would be asking peopleto raise their hands before they
talk.
When you have those kind ofpopcorn style brainstorming
(14:40):
meetings, I personally and thisis definitely not everybody, but
for me I find it difficult tocut in or I get nervous about
having to talk over somebody.
I get nervous about having totalk over somebody.
So even the method of likehaving people raise their hand
and the group facilitatorcalling on people, that can help
make the conversation a lotmore comfortable.
And then, finally, justrecognizing if people need their
(15:03):
space, especially during lunchhour.
I used to work in anorganization where the
expectation was that everyonewould go down to the cafeteria
to eat lunch together, becauseit was thought to be like staff
bonding, which is great and alot of people loved it.
But for me it was so hardbecause I really needed that
hour or so to really recharge.
(15:23):
And you know, go for a walk,get some fresh air and just get
my thoughts back together.
So I think just understandingthat people recharge differently
.
Outside of fundraising, I alsovolunteer a lot with Girl Guides
, which is our Canadian versionof Girl Scouts, and we're
noticing that a lot more withthe teens I work with.
Some of them will just besitting off in the corner and at
(15:45):
first we were worried that theyweren't feeling included or
they were upset, but we realizedthey really just needed some
space away from all of.
We have 18 girls so it's a lotof noise and sometimes they just
need space.
And one fellow Girl Guy leadershe said to me is it bothering
(16:05):
them or is it bothering you?
And I realized that even thoughI am an introvert, I still felt
bad about the people who neededto step aside and recharge.
So just kind of recognizingthat that looks a little bit
differently for everyone.
Keith Greer, CFRE (16:19):
I think those are some amazing tips.
A couple questions, and sowe're just going to kind of go
through them a little bit, oneby one.
But when you're talking aboutobserving that people are
getting to take some space andyou got the feedback of is it
something that's bothering youor is it something that's
bothering them, do you go and doyou check in with the people
(16:41):
who are taking space or do youjust kind of assume that they're
taking space because they needit?
What's the best way to approachthat?
What's the best way to approachthat?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (16:48):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I think if it's somebody thatyou know is an introvert and
does need that space, I wouldsay that it's safe to assume
that that's what they're doingand that's what they're needing
right now, and maybe giving themsome time to recharge and if
they do need some help or needsomeone to talk, to letting them
approach you in that moment.
(17:09):
Especially with adults, I thinkthat it's okay to kind of
assume that they'll be able totell you what they need.
When I work with kids, wedefinitely do check in a little
bit more with them just to makesure that nothing's wrong.
But also I found that they doprefer us.
Once we do that one time and weunderstand more like what they
(17:29):
need.
They do prefer them eithercoming to us or us more so
ignoring it rather than comingto them and drawing attention to
them doing that.
Keith Greer, CFRE (17:38):
I really like that initial check-in on
somebody that you might not knowvery well and maybe just having
the conversation to say, hey,if I look at you and you just
want some space, give me athumbs up or whatever.
It is just so I know you'reokay and if you're having some
trouble, just give me a thumbsdown or something, and then I
know to come, come help you orsomething along those lines.
(17:59):
But also with raising yourhands, I can imagine that Zoom
has been kind of a blessing indisguise with that, because it's
kind of a best practice,because it's it's so much easier
for things to go chaotic andout of control over Zoom when
people are jumping in on top ofeach other, but having that
(18:19):
raise hand feature must be superhelpful.
Do you also implement that inyour in person meetings as well?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (18:26):
First of all, zoom has been such a good
blessing in disguise.
I know there's been a lot ofgrowing pains and we're still
trying to figure out technology,like five years after we first
started using it.
But not only is the handraising great, the chat feature
is also great.
I've found sometimes if I'm ina bigger meeting with a hundred
people and I don't feelcomfortable raising my hand in
(18:47):
that moment, even just typing inthe chat is a lot less scary
for me, and then if thefacilitator raises the question
or points out what I said, thenI still feel like my voice has
been heard and I don't have totalk over all the people in the
room.
So that's been really great, Ithink.
In terms of doing it in person,sometimes we'll do things where,
(19:12):
like, we'll each be given aminute to say our opinion, which
has been really helpful becauseon my fundraising team we do
have a lot of differentpersonalities and we found
before we were doing that, justbecause of the nature of
everything, that meant that afew people were really
dominating those conversations.
So I think you know givingpeople that minute and saying
(19:32):
like oh, thank you so much forcontributing.
Let's see if somebody else hassomething to contribute.
It really like evens theplaying field and by doing that
to the introverts in the roomdon't feel like they need to
compete or be a louder voice.
It kind of just evens it out abit more.
Keith Greer, CFRE (19:49):
That's really great, and the last question I
had from all of your tips istalking about being okay with
the silence during the meetingsor the group discussions, and
maybe it's not so much as aquestion, but it's something
that I remember one of myleaders talking to me about
years ago and they said afteryou ask a question, count to 10
(20:11):
seconds in your head before youstart calling on people and
asking them, and it gives peoplea chance to kind of get their
thoughts out, have themcollected and formulate
something semi-coherent beforethey start to speak on it.
Is that something that you'refully advocating for as well?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (20:41):
Just taking that 10 seconds of
silence and really going withthe awkwardness of it, but it is
super important.
I've also facilitated someworkshops and I do understand
the urge to fill that silencebecause that's just not
something that you know peoplelike.
But I do highly advocate forthat and I think the 10 seconds
is a good rule and that doesgive other people time to like,
(21:05):
think and contribute and stuff.
And I would also encourage,even if you're not the
facilitator, if you're somebodywho does tend to be a more
dominant person in conversations, giving yourself that 10
seconds as well, rather thantrying to fill the silence all
the time and letting someoneelse speak.
Keith Greer, CFRE (21:21):
Okay, great.
So not just on the facilitatorside, but on the participant
side too.
Carissa Konesky, CFR (21:26):
Absolutely yeah, and I don't think people
mean any harm by this at all,and it is often people just
wanting to avoid that awkwardsilence or not wanting quieter
people to feel uncomfortable.
But I do think it is reallyimportant to do that, but it is
hard.
I do recognize that.
Keith Greer, CFRE (21:43):
Yeah, because I think that so many people
think that the quiet people areshy.
They assume that introversionand shyness are the exact same
thing.
How do you explain thedifference and why does that
distinction matter so much forfundraisers?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (21:56):
That is a great question and it is so
true.
I hear these words put togetherall the time, like that person
is so shy and quiet.
But those two things are notthe same and of course you can
be shy and quiet, but they don'tnecessarily go hand in hand all
the time.
I know people who talk a lotwho would consider themselves
(22:16):
shy.
Keith Greer, CFRE (22:16):
Hello that would be me.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (22:19):
Exactly and you would never think so.
It's just people show up in somany different ways and
introversion and extroversionreally just refers to how you
get your energy.
As introverts, we get ourrecharge energy by being alone
and the extroverts get theirenergy by being with other
people.
(22:40):
And it does not mean thatintroverts are scared to talk to
people or hesitant to talk topeople.
I actually don't considermyself to be a shy person at all
.
I've gone on multiple like grouptrips across like Canada and
the USA, having not known anyone, and I've still made lots of
friends.
So I think this is reallyimportant for fundraisers,
(23:01):
especially because there'salways an assumption that if
someone is not a very talkativeperson and they're shy, they
might be too shy to go on adonor meeting or they might not
be ready to be able to havethose conversations with donors.
So I think that it is reallyimportant to understand the
difference between those two.
I also think it's important notto make comments about that.
(23:24):
I have had so many commentsmade towards me throughout my
career and I know that thosecomments don't mean harm, but
they do make me feel reallyshrugged off.
So last year I ended up gettingthe big award from BC Business
and one of my colleagues wassaid what I can't believe it
Like you, quiet Carissa, so theydidn't mean harm, but it does
(23:49):
make me feel like my personalityand my skill set does not set
me up for success in the waythat others are, especially in
fundraising and leadership,where I want to be.
Keith Greer, CFRE (23:58):
I think what you're talking about with
introversion and shyness is areally important note, because,
well, I would definitelyconsider myself an extrovert.
There are moments when I can bevery shy, and for me the
shyness comes in more with largegroups and it comes in when I
(24:18):
feel very out of place with itright, whereas one-on-one I can
talk to anybody about anything.
You want to put me in a roomwith Oprah Winfrey or Bill Gates
or Hannibal Lecter I can make aconversation with any of them,
but put me into a room filledwith people like that and it
becomes very overwhelming and Iam definitely a wallflower in
(24:40):
those moments.
And so that kind of gets tonetworking events and big galas
and how they can be so drainingeven for extroverts.
How do you personally balancethat meaningful donor engagement
with preserving your energy?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (24:56):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned that
, keith, because I do believethat introversion and
extroversion is a spectrum.
I don't think that anyone is100% introverted and wants to be
by themselves all the time, andI also don't believe that
anyone wants to be with people100% of the time and never wants
their own time.
So I think it's a really goodpoint that it sometimes shows up
differently.
I know for me, the networkingevents and the big galas is when
(25:20):
I feel the most like anintrovert.
So the way that I kind ofmanage it is I try to break it
down into smaller goals.
So, rather than looking at thatbig room of donors or that big
room of people and thinking thatI need to talk to the whole
room, just prioritizing what oneor two donors do I really want
to talk to and build a furtherrelationship with tonight, and
(25:41):
breaking it down so that I justfocus on that and focus on
getting to know those one or twopeople.
Because, like you mentioned,I'm the same way.
I can talk to anybodyone-on-one and I have no problem
with that and I get to knowpeople really well.
But as soon as I'm with a groupof like 10 people, I'll
definitely take more of a stepback.
So being able to kind of likefind those one-on-one
(26:05):
conversations, even in such abig group, has been really
helpful to me.
And even if, like, more peoplejoin the conversation as we go
or they bring in more people forme to meet, like that's awesome
, but it's way less overwhelmingthan feeling like I have to
make conversation with everybodyall at once in the like two
hours that the event is going tobe.
(26:25):
And I also just want to saylike let's normalize, like
needing to take a few minutes.
I know that I put so muchpressure on myself at these
events that I need to make themost of the two hours and I need
my supervisor to see me talkingto donors all night long, but I
think it's okay.
Just to you know, either go tothe washroom and just like take
(26:47):
a recharge for a few minutes andlet yourself absorb the
information, or even just liketaking a few minutes and let
yourself absorb the information,or even just like taking a few
minutes to talk, even with acoworker.
I know that I have my.
One of my best friends is mycoworker and I feel really
comfortable with her.
So even just like having thechance to like debrief and talk
with her for a few minutes.
I find that that reallyrecharges me and makes me ready
(27:09):
to have that next conversation.
So that can be really helpful,and also even like dragging that
coworker into a conversation ora different coworker as well.
That way you can kind of likebounce off each other during
your conversations or help oneanother out when one's like
fading and their energy isfading.
That's also been really helpfulfor me.
Keith Greer, CFRE (27:31):
I really enjoyed what you were saying
about introversion andextroversion being on that
spectrum and how that shows upfor you, because for me it shows
up similarly but a little bitdifferent, where, if it's a
donor event I don't know what itis but I can be full on
extrovert, knowing that that'smy job.
It's almost become like aperformance for me and it's like
(27:53):
get out there and shine yourlight, whereas with networking
that one hits differently for meand it becomes much more
personal and much morevulnerable and I become much
shyer in those.
So I've had to develop somestrategies and some life hacks,
so to speak, in order to getthrough those moments.
One of the ones that has beenso valuable for me going to
(28:17):
those networking events is toshow up early, like before
everybody else, unfashionablyearly and go and find the very
best table in the entire roomand sit there and claim that,
because then everybody has tocome to you and ask for
permission to join your tableand then they're having to
introduce themselves to yourather than me having to go and
(28:40):
try and introduce myself to agroup of strangers that I don't
really know.
So I wonder, is there any otherkind of life hacks like that
that you might have found thathave really helped you kind of
navigate those waters.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (28:51):
Yeah, I remember you mentioning that and
I haven't had the chance to trythat out, but I'm definitely
going to, because I'm totallythe opposite I want to have like
the least amount of time at anetworking event, so I'll arrive
right on the hour.
But you're right, I do end uphaving to approach people that
way.
So I'm definitely going to tryit your way the next time as
well.
(29:15):
I think for me, if you have likeeither a colleague or somebody
that you know, either likefinding that person in the room
and not necessarily staying withthem the whole night, but using
them as a way, like I mentionedbefore, to bounce off
conversations or having themintroduce you to some people and
really just kind of being anicebreaker.
But I've also found that that'skind of gone both ways because,
(29:37):
depending on who the colleagueis, if they're a more talkative
person than me, sometimesthey'll end up dominating the
whole conversation as well.
So, if it is something that youdo feel comfortable with, I do
highly recommend trying to go toa networking event yourself.
If you don't have that personthat you think you can kind of
(29:58):
be yourself with and becomfortable speaking around, and
, yeah, like, even though it ispersonal, just kind of
remembering you don't have to beanybody but yourself, and I
think that that's something thatI'm still learning, because I
do feel a lot of pressure toperform in a certain way and
talk a certain amount that Idon't necessarily like feel that
(30:20):
is authentic to me in thesesituations, because I feel like
you know, a networker and afundraiser is supposed to look a
certain way.
Keith Greer, CFRE (30:27):
So I think just knowing that it's okay to
show up like how you feel isright for you, yeah, I really
like the tip about bringingsomebody that you can introduce
or that can be introduced,because that's another one of my
hacks that I found is beingthat person who introduces
people Even if you don't knowthe people that you're
introducing.
(30:47):
You kind of automatically takemore of an authority role within
those relationships and so itbecomes almost like you're the
master of ceremonies within thisconversation and it just makes
it a very different experience.
So I really like that.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (31:06):
Yeah, and I think that's such a big skill
too.
I know a few people who arereally really good connectors
and that's amazing.
Like I was at a networkingevent with somebody that I know
through volunteering and she gotme talking to like a lawyer and
all these people who I neverthought I'd be talking to.
So even that in themselves likeknowing someone like that is
(31:28):
very helpful.
Keith Greer, CFRE (31:29):
Absolutely, and I'm curious have you noticed
that certain donorpersonalities respond better
really to that introvertedapproach to fundraising, and how
should that shape the wayorganizations train their teams?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (31:40):
I don't think that there's necessarily a
one size fits all to this, butI've often found that myself and
some of my fellow introvertedcolleagues are really good at
working with donors who mightrequire that little bit of extra
attention or care Either adonor who has very specific
(32:03):
questions or very specificdesires of how we use their gift
, or those that maybe haverequired a little bit of a
longer time to close the giftagreement.
Or for us at SFU, we'll write aterms of reference to new
awards or scholarships that getdonated to.
(32:24):
So I found that I'm really goodat those situations, again
because I'm able to listen andalso mediate with them if there
isn't something, if they have arequest, that isn't something
that is possible for us to do.
I find that the way that I'mable to relay that to the donor
is pretty empathetic, andbecause I've learned so much
(32:45):
about them and why they'regiving, I'm kind of able to
pivot it in a different way orin a different light.
So that's been really helpful,and I'm not sure if this is
solely an introverted quality,but I find that my patience has
been really helpful too.
I've had gifts that have takenmore than a year for me to close
(33:06):
but, just like continuouslyhaving that dialogue with the
donors has helped me eventuallyclose those gifts as well.
I think, in terms of howorganizations train their team,
I think the biggest thing is tounderstand that good fundraisers
come in different forms andagain, there's really not a one
size fits all situation.
(33:28):
I have believed for a reallylong time that I couldn't be a
leader or I couldn't be asupervisor because of my certain
you know demeanor or the waythat I communicate.
Even this is outside of work.
But again, with Girl Guidesthat I volunteer with, I had
applied I think this was six orseven years ago now.
(33:50):
I had applied to be the chairof a committee that I'd given
three years of my time and I hadproven my dedication and I'd
planned these really largeevents.
And I remember reading an emailfrom someone saying that I was
super enthusiastic andhardworking but that I'm soft
spoken and that I could bestepped on and that was such a
(34:14):
big assumption because I've hadso many instances before where
I've had to stand up for myselfin the workplace and in other
areas of my life and I have notbeen stepped on.
So there was that assumptionthat I wasn't capable of taking
on that role just because I wasa quieter person.
So I think that teams reallyneed to make assumptions or not
(34:35):
make assumptions about people'sleadership abilities based on
how much they talk and when youare like looking for who to
promote or like who to take on asupervisor role, not just
automatically choosing like whothe loudest or who the strongest
spoken person is, because well,of course they can be good
supervisors, it doesn'tautomatically mean they're going
(34:57):
to be the best supervisor basedon that.
Keith Greer, CFRE (34:59):
Right.
And so when you're getting thatkind of feedback about
different leadership styles andfundraising styles and it's not
necessarily resonating with whoyou are can you share a time
when your quieter strengths,like empathy or attention to
detail, were truly valued andacknowledged?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (35:17):
I think the first time that I kind of
had a aha moment about all thesebiases that I'd had felt about
myself, I was taking an emergingleaders program.
We have like a really awesomeorganization here in Vancouver
that specifically works to helptrain womanidentified colleagues
(35:39):
into leadership positions.
So as part of that program wetook the CliftonStrengths test
and now I've taken it a fewtimes, but this was the first
time that I'd taken it and I'mnot sure how many people have
taken it.
But the test tells you whatyour top strengths are in four
different categories and, notsurprisingly, I scored mostly in
(36:01):
the relationship buildingcategories, categories which are
often, the more you know, softspoken, and not in the spotlight
categories.
And then, as we were debriefingwhat we kind of found our
results were and what ourleadership styles were, I had
this like what our leadershipstyles were.
(36:22):
I had this like light bulbmoment, a feeling that my skills
of being a relator or veryempathetic were not as valued in
the leadership spaces that Iwere part of as somebody who was
an activator or who was areally good public speaker.
And that does make sense to me.
I think that skills like youknow, listening and building
harmony are not easily noticedcompared to being a really good
(36:45):
public speaker, and I've neverhad anything on my work
evaluation saying that I'm greatat listening to donors or
anything like that.
But I just remember wheneveryone else was nodding when I
said that I didn't feel asvalued in my leadership
abilities because of thoseskills that I had, and then the
facilitator also being like, yes, like you hit the nail on the
(37:07):
head.
That's when I finally feltvalidated and like a lot of
things really made sense.
Keith Greer, CFRE (37:12):
You might not know this yet, but you are an
amazing public speaker.
But you are an amazing publicspeaker and even though we're
recording this before our Iconsession, which was just a few
days ago by the time that thisairs, I have full confidence in
you.
I think you're going to beabsolutely amazing, and so I
want to invite anybody thatattended our session at Icon to
(37:34):
connect with Carissa on LinkedIn.
We'll put her profile in theshow notes and just tell her
what an amazing job she did,because I know she's going to
knock it out of the park andit's weird talking about the
future in the past tense, butthat's where we are, because I
know you're going to be amazing.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (37:51):
Thank you , keith.
I really, really appreciate itand I think you're such a great
example of how important it isto really uplift people and
focus on people's strength andencourage people to do what they
want to do, and I reallyappreciate all the encouragement
that you've given me.
It's really helped me so much.
Keith Greer, CFRE (38:08):
Well, it's not so much as encouragement as
just recognizing what an amazingperson you are, because you're
pretty dang phenomenal, I mustsay.
But thank you for mycompliments too.
For our last question, becauseI know we're getting close on
our time.
For introverts who are juststarting their fundraising
careers, what's the one piece ofadvice you wish someone had
(38:30):
given you when you were startingout?
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (38:32):
You know, I've often wondered why I'm so
passionate about fundraising andwhy I love it so much when I
identify as an introvert.
But then I realized thatfundraising is really all about
building relationships, andbuilding relationships does not
mean being the loudest person inthe room or being the one who
talks the most, and I reallywant my fellow introverted, like
(38:54):
fundraisers, to know that theybelong in fundraising and
leadership spaces.
I know, keith, we actually metthrough attending the AFP
Leadership Institute and beforeI attended I actually got
worried about whether I wasgoing to be too quiet or even if
, like AFP would regretaccepting me into the program
just because I wasn't, you know,as talkative as some of like
(39:16):
the other people that I knewwere going to be in that space.
So I just really wanted to givethe reinsurance that leadership
and fundraising shows up in somany different ways and there
really isn't a right or wrongway to do that.
And then, finally, introvertsbring amazing skills and they're
just as valuable as otherskills and you belong as a
(39:37):
fundraiser just as much asanyone else.
Keith Greer, CFRE (39:40):
So true, and I want to say just a little bit
about my reflections on the AFPLeadership Institute.
And it was really impressive tome the way that we brought in
so many people who are verystrong extroverts and people who
are very strong introverts andthe way that they were able to
navigate a week together and howsome of those voices definitely
(40:04):
took prominence in thebeginning of the week, but by
the midpoint of the week and theend of the week some of those
people were getting worn outfrom having to carry the
conversation and that's whenintroverts were really able to
step up.
I think that they got to thepoint where they felt
comfortable with the people thatthey were surrounded by and a
part of.
(40:25):
They knew that their voiceswould be respected and
appreciated and heard and youdidn't shy away from that.
You were an incrediblecontributor and, along with
everybody else, it was such anamazing experience and I hope
that AFP gets to continue theLeadership Institute because it
(40:45):
was really an incredibleexperience.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (40:47):
Yeah, it was really like nothing else
that I've ever attended, and thewhole reason they put that
together is to have a place forfundraisers to become leaders,
and I just don't think that thatresource has been available
before.
So I agree, and I also think itwas really valuable the way
that they set it up so that boththe extroverts and the
introverts could contribute.
(41:07):
I know, at the beginning, whenwe came up with the rules for
how we were all going tocommunicate together, I
literally said, like we need togive space to the introverts and
like let them talk as well, andour facilitators were so good
at, you know, making that spaceor realizing, maybe, when some
other voices might want tocontribute to the conversation
(41:27):
as well.
Keith Greer, CFRE (41:29):
And being able to draw those voices out
too.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (41:31):
Exactly.
Yeah, no, it was amazing and Iwas actually quite surprised at
how comfortable I wascontributing, especially in a
room full of 24 people that youdid not know at all before the
week began 24 intimidatingpeople because they're all doing
amazing things.
I know I can't believe how manyremarkable, accomplished people
were in one room that week.
Keith Greer, CFRE (41:52):
Yeah, it was special, and I'm so glad that we
get to continue theserelationships afterwards,
because they're really importantto me and I think that they're
important to you as well, or youwouldn't be here.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (42:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
They're invaluable, thoserelationships that you form, and
I think that fundraisers, likeI mentioned, we do have such a
unique job that has so manyfactors that maybe a lot of
other jobs don't have.
So being able to talk to peoplewho can relate and share their
experience is so valuable.
Keith Greer, CFRE (42:20):
Well, carissa , thank you so much for being on
the podcast and sharing yourexpertise and your wisdom and
your passion about introversionand fundraising and how it
really is a superpower, becauseyou have listening skills that I
have to work on that comenaturally to you.
So thank you for being here andthank you for being such an
important part of my experience.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (42:41):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me,
keith.
This was so fun and, yeah, Ithink the most important thing
is that introverts andextroverts still have so much to
learn from one another and canwork really well together and
share their skills together, andI'm so excited to see that keep
happening.
Keith Greer, CFRE (42:57):
Absolutely, and if you were able to attend
our Icon Session, make sure togive Carissa a follow and tell
her what an amazing job she did,because she's a rock star.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (43:06):
Aw, thank you, Keith.
Keith Greer, CFRE (43:07):
Have a great one.
We'll catch you later.
Carissa Konesky, CFRE (43:09):
Yeah, take care, bye, bye.
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