February 10, 2025 • 33 mins
Let’s Talk Housing S4 E2
From B.C. to Ontario: Innovative Strategies on Homelessness
This episode explores the common challenges and innovative solutions in social housing, drawing parallels between Ottawa Community Housing and BC Housing. Ottawa Community Housing’s CEO recently introduced the Complex Care Housing Strategy, which aims to support tenants emerging from chronic homelessness, as well as those living with mental health, substance use, behavioral challenges, and health issues related to aging.
We’ll discuss this strategy and its reception, share tenant stories, and highlight what Ottawa and BC are doing to tackle homelessness.
--
British Columbia is in the grips of a housing affordability crisis decades in the making. We need to find innovative solutions.
The Province has an ambitious plan to address the crisis through the largest investment in housing affordability in BC’s history.
Tasked with building tens of thousands of homes in hundreds of communities is BC Housing, the province’s agency responsible for developing, managing, and administering a wide range of subsidized housing and homelessness services across the province.
BC Housing doesn’t do this alone. To address the challenge, it’s working with hundreds of partners. In Let’s Talk Housing Season Three, you’ll get to hear from those delivering exciting affordable housing solutions.
Hosted by Sara Goldvine, episodes address deep-rooted societal issues:
- the right to affordable, accessible and culturally appropriate housing
- mental health challenges
- homelessness
- meeting the needs of women and children leaving violence
- fostering community acceptance
- role of the private sector
- Impacts of climate change on housing.
About BC Housing
BC Housing develops, manages and administers a wide range of subsidized housing options across the province. We also license residential builders, administer owner builder authorizations and carry out research and education that benefits the residential construction industry, consumers and the affordable housing sector.
We work in partnership with the private and non-profit sectors, provincial health authorities and ministries, other levels of government and community groups to develop a range of housing options.
Who we serve
- Individuals who are homeless
- Individuals with disabilities
- Indigenous individuals and families
- Women and children at risk of violence
- Low-income seniors and families
- Buyers of new homes
Learn more about BC Housing here: https://www.bchousing.org/
For more news on our latest projects and developments, visit: https://news.bchousing.org/
#podcast #housing
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hi, and welcome to Let's Talk Housing.
I'm your host, Sara Goldvine, from BC Housing.
Today we're going to have an interesting
conversation with guests from BCand from Ottawa, exploring
the common challenges and innovativesolutions in social housing.
Learning from each other.
(00:25):
Ottawa CommunityHousing recently introduced a complex care
housing strategy, which aims to supporttenants emerging from chronic homelessness
as well as those living with mentalhealth, substance
use, behavioral challenges,and health issues related to aging.
We've got a lot of the same prioritieshere in BC,
so we're going to discuss the strategyand its reception and really highlight
(00:47):
what we can learn from each otherand where our differences may be.
I'm pleased to be joined todayby co-host Heidi Hartman,
Associate Vice-President of supportiveHousing and Homelessness.
Heidi is well known to many people here
in BC housing and across the sector.
We're joined by guest BrianGilligan, Chief Officer, Community
(01:08):
and Tenant Support with Ottawa CommunityHousing and by BC
Housing Zone Frank Tick,Coordinated Access and Assessment manager.
Before we get underway,
I'd like to acknowledgethat we're recording today's podcast
on the unceded territoriesof the Musqueam, Squamish
and Tsleil-Waututh nations hereat BC
Housing's home office.
(01:28):
We do our business on the territoriesof hundreds of First Nations around
British Columbia, and extend our gratitudeto their peoples, past and present.
Of course, todaywe are also joined by a guest from Ottawa
who's traveled from the uncededterritories of the Anishinaabe Algonquin.
And we're really gratefulto be able to draw on that
(01:49):
knowledge as part of our conversation.For transparency,
We're recording this podcastin November of 2024,
and our conversations reflectthe priorities and matters of this time.
Brian, Frank, Heidi, thank you so much for forjoining us today for this conversation.
I'd like just to startby having a bit of a conversation
(02:10):
about what draws you to this work.
Brian, maybe we can start with you.
What what draws you to this work andand why are you working specifically in
in housing and homelessness?
Housing was almost a bit of an accidentfor me
I have spent much of my lifeworking with street populations.
I've workedin custody with young offenders.
I've been an outreach worker, harmreduction worker, working shelters.
(02:33):
I wasn't necessarily looking to work inhousing, but kind of fell in front of me.
And I seem to be a good fit.
I'm quite passionateabout the idea of building community,
and one of the questionsthat I came to OCH was,
how do you build communityamongst the most vulnerable tenants?
There was alwaysa lot of tenant engagement in seniors
communities and family communities.
Maybe, you know,life past were maybe not as difficult.
(02:55):
Parents want great things for the kids.
They're, you know, they'rethey're willing to organize themselves.
But how do you build communityamongst folks who are incredibly isolated
and marginalizedor have kind of suffered through systems?
I mean, the objects of systems and feelthat they have no agency or power.
So I think what originally drew me tothe work was the idea that we could,
you know, how do you build communityin a building full of really, really high
need folks who who haven't had great lives.And then what keeps me there is
(03:18):
I mean, the tenants are amazing.
I learned so much from them,they're my teachers.
They keep me humble.
Great senses of humour, amazinglife stories.
And so, yeah, that's why I'm here.
That's fantastic.
I love your focus on people and community.
And what about you, Frank?
I saw you nodding along to some of that.What draws you to this work?
I think like Brian, it'ssome of it's accidental, for sure.
(03:40):
I trained as an occupational therapist,worked for Vancouver
Coastal Health for over ten yearson a sort of community treatment team.
Did a lot of work in the Downtown Eastsidebefore I transitioned to BC housing.
So very muchkind of working with that same population.
I always really enjoythat sort of helping role.
And certainly over the yearswe've seen the need for housing and
(04:01):
and sort of wraparound support services.
It just increases right? Work is there.
I find it very rewarding.
But I think, you know, another thingI'd like to mention
of sort of what keeps me hereis, is also the people that I work with.
So I think I'm very lucky at BC Housingthat we have an incredible team.
We're very
supportive of each other,and I think day to day that that
(04:21):
because it is hard work toI think day to day that that goes
a long way into keeping us allkind of doing what we're doing.
Yeah. Yeah.Absolutely. Really great folks.
So Brian, people who listen tothis podcast
are probably fairly familiar,at least a little bit familiar with BC
Housing and maybe a bit less familiarwith what you have happening in Ottawa.
(04:42):
So can you tell us a little bitabout Ottawa Community Housing and,
why you're out here as wellmeeting with BC Housing?
Well, the second question first,I think it's important.
And Heidi and I had
a long conversation about justwhat we can all learn from each other.
Our housing environmentsare remarkably different
and remarkably similar at the same time.
(05:03):
Who we serve is quite similar,but the frameworks
and the legislation and regulationscan often be quite different.
So it's curious.
I mean, I've got the great benefit of
just being a two hourdrive away from Montreal,
so quite familiar with Quebecand how Quebec manages socializing.
Ontario's got a pretty good, well, on
(05:23):
for the Ontario Nonprofit Housing Associationis very good at bringing people together.
But I was out here
and I've been out here before,and I just thought it was an opportunity.
in terms of Ottawa CommunityHousing, about 33,000
tenants in about 16,000 homes.
We're the second largest in Ontario.
I think we're the fourth largest in Canadain terms of the number of units.
Like all housing providers,
(05:44):
there's a range of tests.We have 22 seniors only buildings.
We house about 9000 children and youth.
And then lots of adults.
And so, you know, our stock is averageof 50 years old
and getting older.
Recently we've begun to build,
which is interesting,although what we're building
(06:05):
is referred to as affordable housing,not deep affordability.
So most of the programsthat we're accessing right now
are about buildingkind of what we call the missing middle
then, as opposed to sort of peoplewho have, you know, core housing need.
Yeah.
So a lot of similarities
there, of course, to the workthat we have underway at BC Housing.
(06:26):
And, Frank,maybe you can tell us a little bit
about specifically your team hereat BC Housing and,
and the work that you do,because I do think that it's something
that maybe a lot of folkswouldn't be familiar with.
Thanks. Yeah.
So we're part of the Lower MainlandShelter and Supportive Housing team.
So right now, it's it's really kind of two
(06:48):
main regions, right?
We have the what we call ourOrange Hall office, which is our,
sort of Vancouver Coastal region.
And then we have the Fraser regionteam. Right.
So it covers all of the Lower Mainland.
So we are responsible for deliveringon shelter and supportive housing program.
So a lot of what sort of Brian's referredto, we have a supportive housing sites
(07:09):
that, for BC Housing, I think most peoplelistening to the podcast
would probably know
with our supportive housing program,which is different from our Lower Mainland
directly managed program,where we partner with community nonprofits
to actually deliver on the operationsof all the supportive housing sites.
We don't do it on their own. Right.
So we have these wonderful opportunitiesto work with a variety
(07:31):
of service providersin each of these municipalities to
provide much needed supportivehousing to for folks that are,
I guess, borrowing, you know, Brian's termwith that a core housing need.
Much of our program is, is focused on thedeep subsidy, affordable housing as well.
We have our shelter programs.
(07:52):
Again,I think what we seen year upon year is,
we're in a bit of a housing crisishere in BC.
I think that's probably somethingwe see across the country.
So we are,unfortunately, seeing the number of people
experiencing homelessness,continually rising year upon year.
So having those shelter resources is oftena really important sort of first step
to get people into housing.
(08:12):
So we're again, working with nonprofitpartners in the community, to support them
to open and operate, both permanentshelters and winter shelter programs.
Well, thank you for that.
And, love to hand it over to Heidi a bitbecause,
of course, Heidi, you've been overseeingso much of the expansion of these programs
as, as we scaled to to meet the needsof the of the people of BC.
(08:35):
And maybe I can hand it to you
and you can dig into some of the specificsfrom here.
Thanks, Sara.v
And I just want to saywhat a wonderful opportunity this is,
Brian and I had a chance to connectbefore the podcast.
And really what comes through and you'rehearing it as well, is his passion.
In fact, he's here on vacationand spending his time
(08:57):
learning and sharing his knowledgewith BC
Housing. So really appreciate that.
Brian, what we're really curious aboutis what led to the adoption
of the Complex CareHousing Strategy in 2023.
You know, what really came through to mewas the vision of that but
(09:17):
maybe you could share with our listenersreally what led to that.
So if you go back about,
25 years, Ontariocreated the Social Housing Reform Act,
which createdprovincial and local priorities.
And what's
been happening since then is an increasingnumber of new tenancies
every year, coming off lists,priority lists,
(09:41):
which are indicative of of vulnerabilities
of complex needs.
The challenges is that
and quite jealousthe way that, Frank and Heidi
been talking in terms of,the ability in BC to coordinate across
areas of housing which Ontarioactually managed quite separately.
So shelters,transitional, supportive, core need.
(10:06):
These are all quite different in Ontario.
And so, you know, one of thingsI saw right away was that
we were housinglarge numbers of people who,
who maybe shouldn'tactually be in social housing,
or they requireda much higher level of support.
Or when you really needto look at the model,
because the model of independent living
and those go back and say,you know, regulation.
124 of the housing servicesaccess live in Social Housing Ontario.
(10:28):
You have to be able to liveindependently with or without supports.
And yet there's no provision for assessing
that and decidingwhere is the best place to put people.
So for example, in Ottawa,we house, a very large percentage
of the waiting listfor supportive housing in social housing.
You know, they may have supports,
but the supports are quite limitedor they may have no supports at all.
(10:51):
And so the real challenge with housing,people who are
coming out of chronic homelessness,living with mental health or substance
use issues in an independentliving environment.
And so really kindof thinking that, you know,
it is creating challenges.
And I think wethat I talked earlier about,
you know, I've been generating datafrom the health system and emergency
services internallyfor the last couple of years, and just
(11:13):
the cost to the system of our buildings,
which houses a lot of high needfolks, is incredibly high.
So just one thing...
In 2022, I looked at 15 buildings,
which have about 12% of our tenants.
Those buildings have about 3900 tenants.
37% of them visitan emergency room in 2022,
(11:36):
and of those 37%, 40% of themwent for a mental health,
substance use or behavioral issueas a primary or secondary diagnosis.
High, high police calls for service.
High, high fire calls for service.
Same with paramedics.
And then you add to that the costto the landlord in terms of insurance
costs, hoarding, pest issues,
(11:58):
security calls for
services, elevator maintenance.
They are remarkably more expensiveto operate,
which is indicative of the fact
we're housing people who have a lotof challenges living independently.
And often those challenges are,is that they're easily victimized.
And so,you know, when you operate, a housing,
portfolio of independent living.
(12:20):
But people are very vulnerable.
They're often at risk of being victimizedfrom people outside the community
but we’re simply not resourcedto provide the kind of supports
and onsite presence that a supportivehousing provider would have, for example.
So yeah, just some real challengesthat that have not
not only recognize when I started OCH,but I saw were growing year after year.
(12:41):
And it was really so impressive
to hear the data informed approach,the information you were able to take
to the municipalityand government partners
to really indicatethe need and address that gap.
But again, I was just really impressedby what we heard
for OttawaHousing in terms of sharing data and
(13:03):
and informing gaps using that data.
As I mentioned to you earlier,
I mean, gathering that data has been hardwork and complicated.
And I think really the way forward is,
you know,we're beginning to have a discussion,
some of our partners,in order to say, look, let's
all agree that every yearwe are going to pull this data,
(13:23):
because once it's written into a program,
you know, you can add as many postal codesas you want and you can pull it.
But right now is sort of going and asking,please give it to us.
And then two years later you go backand that person is gone.
So you have to educate somebody new
and they might give you somethingslightly different.
So I think, you know, we really needto kind of figure out how to get regular
data pulls from emergency services,the health system,
(13:46):
but also internally,what data are we collecting so that we can...
one of the things about higher billings
with our communities,with lots of higher need, folks, is
what is our service model?
I think there's been a tendencyin social housing to sort of look at
every community as being the sameas every other community,
and we have a service model,which is we kind of spread with
a butter knife,and we need really to think differently.
(14:09):
And I know, for example, Toronto Community Housing is going through a process
of trying to categorize their buildingsinto three levels.
Okay. That's fascinating.
Once you end up with those three bucketsof different communities,
the next step would be say, okay,
what service levelshould we be providing in them?
So, you know, you need to send securityon a regular basis to a community
where there are no security issues.
(14:30):
Some communities are going to havemore wear and tear.
So, you know,what is the maintenance budget
for this community versus that community.
So I think there's
there's some really interesting thingsthat can come out of that.
That's wonderful.
And so inspiring for BC Housingto be able to work through that.
Frank, you've done some amazingwork, in encampments.
(14:52):
Both in the Lower Mainlandand shared your expertise,
on the Island as well.
How do you approach building trust andrapport with the vulnerable population
we serve there and support?
There's such a variety there.
But I know you've been very generousand sharing your,
(15:13):
your knowledge and expertisewith our regional teams.
Yeah.
No, I don't thinkthere's a magic bullet there.
I think it's it's important
for us to sort of recognize, again,that everybody's stories different.
You know, how they sort of ended upexperiencing homelessness is going to be
very different.
So really for our team,it really is just putting in the time.
It's it's sort of as simple as that.
(15:35):
But but it is a lot of work,
to just spend time to be with people,to listen to their stories.
Right.
I know a lot of that is kind ofcliche things, but they’re true right.
We don't want to be judgmental.
We want to be very client centered.
We want to be trauma informed. Right.
But it is actually a really bigand real part of the work.
And, and just recognizing that, folks,that are living rough outdoors,
(15:57):
you know, there's there's likelygoing to be a history of trauma there.
So really, it's it's being there forfolks, being patient, listening to folks.
And, and being really transparentand accountable
for what we say and what we do.
We don't want to overpromise.
We, we tell folks the way it is,
we try to sort of accommodatepeople's needs as much as possible, but
(16:22):
at the same time, be real realistic aroundwhat resources are available.
And again, really appreciate what Briansaid about the experience in Ontario.
Every community is different.
And I think in terms of encampments,we're going to find that every community
is going to have a different setof resources. Right.
And we don't want to be setting upfalse expectations for folks.
(16:43):
And I think it really isjust kind of taking that time,
to work with the individual clientsthat we’re coming across.
It is it is very much a team effort.
Ultimately, we need to have some resourcesto offer folks.
And that's where, you know,our team is working quite closely
with our other teams,
like development services andand with our supportive housing advisors.
(17:04):
Right.
Because we're using, you know,
whatever tools we have availableto try to accommodate people's needs.
Right. It's not easy.
I don't think we've got sort of the magicbullet or the right answer yet again,
we're seeing that encampments are becomingquite common across British Columbia.
But I think that more speaksto sort of that growing kind of gap
(17:26):
between affordabilityand what people incomes are.
It's a bit more complex than that.
But I think that's probably sort of thatsort of umbrella reason of why
people are losing their homes. Right.
I was just going to add a comment.
I found it very interestingwhen Brian and I connected,
that Ottawa isn't seeing the encampments,large encampments,
(17:48):
that we are.You know, they're very small encampments.
We were talking about...
Is that the weather?
But, you know,I'm thinking about the work that you do
you and your team do every day, Frank,and how that's a big part of the work.
But again, it's the regional differencesand the
the fact that one solutiondoesn't fit all.
(18:11):
And we’re makingsure is part of our supportive housing
is cultural supports, you know,
Indigenous supports, Elder supports.
Just wondering if that's,
a part of the model in Ottawa.
As you look at the complex carehousing model.
(18:32):
Not yet.
I mean, we are still kind of fleshing outwhat it would look like.
Certainly some of the
early operationalization of complex carehousing,
is is looking to our partnersto sort of provide that
cultural competence and supportthat we might not, not necessarily have.
So we also look to our partners,in terms of case management,
(18:55):
whether they should be,you know, are providing that.
We house an incredibly diverse population,particularly our family communities.
And so we're always kind of considering
how better we can,you know, we can support them.
One really interesting journey for ushas been the diversification of our staff.
And certainly in my time at OCH,
(19:16):
it has become an incredibly diverse placeas an employer.
You know, multiple languages on staff.
You know,as, as varied as our tendencies are,
I think it's also been really importantfor us to say things
when we're looking for new employeesthat experience
living in social housing is seenas something of value to us.
So that lived experience of, you know,whether on our board or our staff
(19:39):
of having grown up at OCHor any other housing provider,
it really provides, a lens that, you know,someone like myself wouldn't have.
So that's one waywe're kind of we're looking at that.
Boy, again, very inspirational.
And, it just speaks to how we can do
our work very effectively,but in different ways.
(20:00):
Heidi, can you just to helpset the context for a conversation,
can you help explain a little bit
about what we're talking aboutwhen we use the term complex care?
What does that mean for for houses anyway?
Well, it's definitely a program
that we've been looking forward tofor some time.
I will highlight,that it looks very different.
(20:22):
We really do honor whatwhat the needs are in the community.
Complex care housing is really the step above supportive housing
to be able to ensurethat people whose needs aren't being met
in supportivehousing can, get their needs met.
It may be the cultural supportsthey need, home and community care,
(20:47):
complex care, housing, there
there is a range of supports
that may be in the buildingand it may be clinicians,
it may be mental health and addictionsworkers.
Doctors may visit this site.
But really, again, it'sabout the community, our regional health
(21:09):
authorities identifyingwith BC Housing, what are the needs?
Who are the people that aren'thaving their support needs met
and ensuringthose enhanced health services are there.
Those that are above, the,
the meal program,the tenant support workers that are there,
(21:30):
24/7, those on site care,they're additional.
So it's really important to highlight thatcomplex care housing isn't transitional.
It can be somebody's forever home.
So they need those supports,for the rest of their life.
They're welcome to stay there, butthe workers are going to work with them
(21:51):
and make sure that their needs are met.
What we're hearingis that our health authority partners
may reduce the supportneeds, just based on what is happening
in thethose folks lives at that particular time.
So again,just really excited about complex care
for the fact that we know those enhancedhealth services are important
(22:15):
for preservationof housing and continuity of housing,
but better support people to be the bestthey can be.
Frank, when you think about the workthat you do in in community
to help connect peoplewith with housing services
that meet their needs, how does complexcare housing play into that?
What types of clients doyou find are best supported?
(22:37):
Are you finding that it's an importanttool to have in your toolbox?
When you're out there speaking with folksand helping connect them with services?
Yeah,I think complex care has been great.
It's something we've hadfeedback on for many, many years.
With our supportive housing, again,our standards,
sort of staffing model for a supportivehousing site is staff on site 24/7.
(23:00):
But usually 2 or 3 staff on site.
And these are a nonprofit to staff,so they're not clinical staff.
And the nonprofits do a fantastic job
aroundsort of those non-clinical supports.
I think complex care has been greatcoming in to, to really address that gap.
So now when folks are livingin supportive housing,
if they do have care needsthat are a little bit beyond,
(23:22):
what the nonprofit can provide,because maybe they need wound care,
maybe they need medication management,whatever the case might be.
We have nowthis, complex care team in partnership
with the local health authoritieswho can kind of provide those.
And like Heidi says, you know,keep people successfully housed.
Right?
So we're not losing peoplethrough that gap.
It really is
(23:42):
I think a really important partof that housing continuum.
Because now we have folks that are insupportive housing who in the past
may have lost their housingbecause of this lack of,
these complex care, clinical supports,but now they're able to stay there.
And again, over time,if it's a physical health issue,
they're getting the support they need.
(24:03):
They may not need that forever.
And then that that resourcecould be freed up for someone else.
So it's been it'sbeen really, really good.
We always need more toolsand options for people, especially
as we look at, housing-first modeland having a complete housing system.
You know, just as,
(24:23):
a success storyand of course, we won't mention any names.
So about last year or so, prior to complexcare rolling out in the Lower Mainland,
we would often have applicants,that we're working with in the community
who would, be very difficultto, to remain housed.
And we I can think of several individualswho have been repeatedly housed
(24:46):
and have lost housing.Since complex care has been available,
and they've been able to sort ofget support from that program.
They've been able to remain housed.
So it's that's that's been a real,I think, real world
example of how this has been reallyhelpful for some folks.
Yeah, that's all the difference, right?
Yeah.
For people to be able to maintainthat housing is so crucial.
(25:10):
Brian, you're heading back.
This is your vacation timeyou're spending at talking about housing.
That says something.
But you're going to be heading backto Ottawa soon.
What's the one thing that you'rewhat's the top thing
that you're going to bring back with youin terms of what you've learned
from your time here in BC?
So I'm gonna back up a little bit.
It's just interestinghow we we're both using
(25:33):
complex care to get to the same place.
But it's the fit in a very different part.
So for you, complex careis something beyond supportive housing.
In Ontario, supportivehousing is the ultimate
in terms of wraparound 24/7 supports.
For us, complexcare is to fill the gap between
independent social housing living and,
(25:57):
supportive housing, in large partbecause we are housing
lots of peoplewho are eligible for supportive housing,
but are on waitlist or are not ready or notable or not eligible, but
need something more than the independentliving model that that we're funded for.
So for us, it'salmost like it's a it's a place between 24/7
(26:18):
supports and what we have right nowand trying to figure out exactly what.
And of course, that can meanmany different things.
In terms of going back to Ontario,
I mean, I think one of the thingsis really interesting
listening to youis that you have oversight
of a range of optionsin housing that we do not.
We are simply, core need housing.
And we have a new growing, affordablehousing.
(26:39):
So, you know, mid-market,
people paying 70% of marketrent as opposed to 30% of income.
But we are not really moving
into the area of more support and complexcares about trying to solve that.
And whether we do it or we're just looking
for different relationships with partners,whether we're building new or we're
converting existing buildings into moreof a supportive model or structured model.
(27:03):
These are all things that, you know,that we're looking at. You know,
very exciting thingwe're working on right now...
We're looking at turning overa portion of one of our rooming houses,
to a treatment facility.
Why would you do that?
Well, the tenants already live there,
so it's not likewe're inviting in a whole new population.
These are people who do live with usbut don't have access to treatment.
(27:23):
And the goal is,
as opposed to taking that personin need of treatment directly
from the streetsand putting them in independent living.
If they could run through a programand come out the other side
much more capable of being successful
in theirhousing and sustainable in their housing,
these are the sorts of relationshipsand the types of layers
and steps that we want to create.
(27:44):
Because I think, you know,we have these we've got this type of,
you know, we've got supportive housing,that transitional we got,
social housing.
But people's housing need changesover their lives, and we want to move
everyone towards higher and higher levelsof independence, of agency.
And by having different optionsand whether it's
you're in a different buildingor we're just able to move or,
you know, addor do supports in the same building,
(28:07):
you know, for me, complex care housingis anything that takes someone
who has challenges living independently,and that could be
someone coming from the street,but it could also be a senior,
who is
getting close to, you know, not being ablelive independently and just helping them
live with dignity and independencejust a little bit longer.
It's a win for that tenant,but it's also a win for the health system.
(28:28):
It's a win for emergency services.
It's a win for us.
So anything that kind of helpsthat person live
just a little bit longer, a little moreindependently, a little more with dignity.
To be successful.
So, you know, to me, fallsinside the bucket of complex care housing.
I think it's so interestingthat that our jargon is different,
but we're all kind of tryingto do the same thing. Right?
(28:49):
So the province recently rolled out,
what we called the supported rentsupplement program,
which which sounds a lot like whatwhat Ontario was calling complex care.
So this is a again, a partnershipwith, our local health authorities as well
as, Ministry of Social Developmentand poverty reduction.
So for
I don't know what you call them in Ontario,basically the welfare office, right.
(29:12):
Ministry of community social services.
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yeah.
So the supportive rent supplementprogram is really our piece of that
that continuum, right.
That, that you're referring to as,as complex care in Ontario
sounds very similar.
Well, that's interesting,and probably this speaks to your role
as provincial agencyand your connections to other ministries.
(29:34):
I mean, we are a local housingcorporation.
We are a wholly owned corporation,nonprofit housing corporation
of the city of Ottawa,that came to Ottawa through
downloading of, of housing servicesback in the late 90s.
Probably the work that we're doing rightnow is an attempt to be more operational,
although at the same timewe're also talking,
(29:54):
you know, we're advocatingat a provincial municipal level that,
you know, we're trying to fix something.
But this is not just Ottawa's problemalone.
Any large housing provider in Ontario,in Canada has the same issues.
And although there are thingsthat we can be innovative about,
there are some thingsthat province can play a role in changing.
(30:15):
I've known for a long timebecause I was out here a while ago,
visiting some, some local housingorganizations in Vancouver
that you have quite a close relationshipwith the health system.
And we have great health partners.
But I think the fact in BC,there seems to be a direction
from on high that,that housing and health work together.
(30:37):
That's something that we're, we'retrying to work on at a local level.
But having that provincial blessingprobably is, is helpful.
And the Belonging in BC programreally speaks to that
integration and coordinationthat's foundational for complex care.
Frank, You'll find it interesting...
There's no assessments for housing.
(30:58):
So we talked about our coordinatedaccess system in the that
and just some of the differences therethat we see here.
And probably a lot more silosbetween the housing
because we talked about the SRSP rent supplementS and how they're
at the coordinated access tableso we can create that positive flow.
(31:21):
So learnings from each other.
I’m coming back out to look at to take a goodlook at your coordinate access.
Oh, it's been sucha, such a great conversation.
I mean, Brian, I think sometimesin BC, we have a tendency to
really take for
granted some parts of our system here.
What wouldyou leave our BC listeners
(31:44):
with in terms of your perspectiveon what you've seen here?
And, what you what you thinkothers could be learning from?
I think there's just some realcore components of coordination
that exist herethat have existed here for a while,
and I realize they haven't always beenfunded the way,
(32:04):
that you may have wanted them to or,you know,
they change with governments.
But, you know, I for a long time,I've known of the relationship
in Vancouver, particularly between BCHousing and the health system.
So that's something that's really,you know, that that's something valuable.
And something, you know,
that we're trying to develop and probablycould learn from you about that.
(32:27):
I also recognize going back to backto you, our provincial organization,
there's kind of more opportunitiesat a provincial level to
help nurture those types of relationships.
Yeah, that's absolutely true.
Thank you so much for making time to
to come come out here, Brian, andthank you so much, Frank, for joining us.
(32:48):
And Heidi for for helping hosttoday's session.
Let's talk again soon.
To learn more about BC Housing,including how to apply for
subsidized housing in BritishColumbia, visit BChousing.org.
You can also find us on Facebook,Instagram, LinkedIn and X.
(33:08):
If you enjoyed this episode,give us a rating.
This will help others find
Let's TalkHousing and join the conversation.
You can subscribe to Let's TalkHousing on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
Hi, and welcome to Let's Talk Housing.
I'm your host, Sara Goldvine, from BC Housing.
Today we're going to have an interesting
conversation with guests from BCand from Ottawa, exploring
the common challenges and innovativesolutions in social housing.
Learning from each other.
(00:25):
Ottawa CommunityHousing recently introduced a complex care
housing strategy, which aims to supporttenants emerging from chronic homelessness
as well as those living with mentalhealth, substance
use, behavioral challenges,and health issues related to aging.
We've got a lot of the same prioritieshere in BC,
so we're going to discuss the strategyand its reception and really highlight
(00:47):
what we can learn from each otherand where our differences may be.
I'm pleased to be joined todayby co-host Heidi Hartman,
Associate Vice-President of supportiveHousing and Homelessness.
Heidi is well known to many people here
in BC housing and across the sector.
We're joined by guest BrianGilligan, Chief Officer, Community
(01:08):
and Tenant Support with Ottawa CommunityHousing and by BC
Housing Zone Frank Tick,Coordinated Access and Assessment manager.
Before we get underway,
I'd like to acknowledgethat we're recording today's podcast
on the unceded territoriesof the Musqueam, Squamish
and Tsleil-Waututh nations hereat BC
Housing's home office.
(01:28):
We do our business on the territoriesof hundreds of First Nations around
British Columbia, and extend our gratitudeto their peoples, past and present.
Of course, todaywe are also joined by a guest from Ottawa
who's traveled from the uncededterritories of the Anishinaabe Algonquin.
And we're really gratefulto be able to draw on that
(01:49):
knowledge as part of our conversation.For transparency,
We're recording this podcastin November of 2024,
and our conversations reflectthe priorities and matters of this time.
Brian, Frank, Heidi, thank you so much for forjoining us today for this conversation.
I'd like just to startby having a bit of a conversation
(02:10):
about what draws you to this work.
Brian, maybe we can start with you.
What what draws you to this work andand why are you working specifically in
in housing and homelessness?
Housing was almost a bit of an accidentfor me
I have spent much of my lifeworking with street populations.
I've workedin custody with young offenders.
I've been an outreach worker, harmreduction worker, working shelters.
(02:33):
I wasn't necessarily looking to work inhousing, but kind of fell in front of me.
And I seem to be a good fit.
I'm quite passionateabout the idea of building community,
and one of the questionsthat I came to OCH was,
how do you build communityamongst the most vulnerable tenants?
There was alwaysa lot of tenant engagement in seniors
communities and family communities.
Maybe, you know,life past were maybe not as difficult.
(02:55):
Parents want great things for the kids.
They're, you know, they'rethey're willing to organize themselves.
But how do you build communityamongst folks who are incredibly isolated
and marginalizedor have kind of suffered through systems?
I mean, the objects of systems and feelthat they have no agency or power.
So I think what originally drew me tothe work was the idea that we could,
you know, how do you build communityin a building full of really, really high
need folks who who haven't had great lives.And then what keeps me there is
(03:18):
I mean, the tenants are amazing.
I learned so much from them,they're my teachers.
They keep me humble.
Great senses of humour, amazinglife stories.
And so, yeah, that's why I'm here.
That's fantastic.
I love your focus on people and community.
And what about you, Frank?
I saw you nodding along to some of that.What draws you to this work?
I think like Brian, it'ssome of it's accidental, for sure.
(03:40):
I trained as an occupational therapist,worked for Vancouver
Coastal Health for over ten yearson a sort of community treatment team.
Did a lot of work in the Downtown Eastsidebefore I transitioned to BC housing.
So very muchkind of working with that same population.
I always really enjoythat sort of helping role.
And certainly over the yearswe've seen the need for housing and
(04:01):
and sort of wraparound support services.
It just increases right? Work is there.
I find it very rewarding.
But I think, you know, another thingI'd like to mention
of sort of what keeps me hereis, is also the people that I work with.
So I think I'm very lucky at BC Housingthat we have an incredible team.
We're very
supportive of each other,and I think day to day that that
(04:21):
because it is hard work toI think day to day that that goes
a long way into keeping us allkind of doing what we're doing.
Yeah. Yeah.Absolutely. Really great folks.
So Brian, people who listen tothis podcast
are probably fairly familiar,at least a little bit familiar with BC
Housing and maybe a bit less familiarwith what you have happening in Ottawa.
(04:42):
So can you tell us a little bitabout Ottawa Community Housing and,
why you're out here as wellmeeting with BC Housing?
Well, the second question first,I think it's important.
And Heidi and I had
a long conversation about justwhat we can all learn from each other.
Our housing environmentsare remarkably different
and remarkably similar at the same time.
(05:03):
Who we serve is quite similar,but the frameworks
and the legislation and regulationscan often be quite different.
So it's curious.
I mean, I've got the great benefit of
just being a two hourdrive away from Montreal,
so quite familiar with Quebecand how Quebec manages socializing.
Ontario's got a pretty good, well, on
(05:23):
for the Ontario Nonprofit Housing Associationis very good at bringing people together.
But I was out here
and I've been out here before,and I just thought it was an opportunity.
in terms of Ottawa CommunityHousing, about 33,000
tenants in about 16,000 homes.
We're the second largest in Ontario.
I think we're the fourth largest in Canadain terms of the number of units.
Like all housing providers,
(05:44):
there's a range of tests.We have 22 seniors only buildings.
We house about 9000 children and youth.
And then lots of adults.
And so, you know, our stock is averageof 50 years old
and getting older.
Recently we've begun to build,
which is interesting,although what we're building
(06:05):
is referred to as affordable housing,not deep affordability.
So most of the programsthat we're accessing right now
are about buildingkind of what we call the missing middle
then, as opposed to sort of peoplewho have, you know, core housing need.
Yeah.
So a lot of similarities
there, of course, to the workthat we have underway at BC Housing.
(06:26):
And, Frank,maybe you can tell us a little bit
about specifically your team hereat BC Housing and,
and the work that you do,because I do think that it's something
that maybe a lot of folkswouldn't be familiar with.
Thanks. Yeah.
So we're part of the Lower MainlandShelter and Supportive Housing team.
So right now, it's it's really kind of two
(06:48):
main regions, right?
We have the what we call ourOrange Hall office, which is our,
sort of Vancouver Coastal region.
And then we have the Fraser regionteam. Right.
So it covers all of the Lower Mainland.
So we are responsible for deliveringon shelter and supportive housing program.
So a lot of what sort of Brian's referredto, we have a supportive housing sites
(07:09):
that, for BC Housing, I think most peoplelistening to the podcast
would probably know
with our supportive housing program,which is different from our Lower Mainland
directly managed program,where we partner with community nonprofits
to actually deliver on the operationsof all the supportive housing sites.
We don't do it on their own. Right.
So we have these wonderful opportunitiesto work with a variety
(07:31):
of service providersin each of these municipalities to
provide much needed supportivehousing to for folks that are,
I guess, borrowing, you know, Brian's termwith that a core housing need.
Much of our program is, is focused on thedeep subsidy, affordable housing as well.
We have our shelter programs.
(07:52):
Again,I think what we seen year upon year is,
we're in a bit of a housing crisishere in BC.
I think that's probably somethingwe see across the country.
So we are,unfortunately, seeing the number of people
experiencing homelessness,continually rising year upon year.
So having those shelter resources is oftena really important sort of first step
to get people into housing.
(08:12):
So we're again, working with nonprofitpartners in the community, to support them
to open and operate, both permanentshelters and winter shelter programs.
Well, thank you for that.
And, love to hand it over to Heidi a bitbecause,
of course, Heidi, you've been overseeingso much of the expansion of these programs
as, as we scaled to to meet the needsof the of the people of BC.
(08:35):
And maybe I can hand it to you
and you can dig into some of the specificsfrom here.
Thanks, Sara.v
And I just want to saywhat a wonderful opportunity this is,
Brian and I had a chance to connectbefore the podcast.
And really what comes through and you'rehearing it as well, is his passion.
In fact, he's here on vacationand spending his time
(08:57):
learning and sharing his knowledgewith BC
Housing. So really appreciate that.
Brian, what we're really curious aboutis what led to the adoption
of the Complex CareHousing Strategy in 2023.
You know, what really came through to mewas the vision of that but
(09:17):
maybe you could share with our listenersreally what led to that.
So if you go back about,
25 years, Ontariocreated the Social Housing Reform Act,
which createdprovincial and local priorities.
And what's
been happening since then is an increasingnumber of new tenancies
every year, coming off lists,priority lists,
(09:41):
which are indicative of of vulnerabilities
of complex needs.
The challenges is that
and quite jealousthe way that, Frank and Heidi
been talking in terms of,the ability in BC to coordinate across
areas of housing which Ontarioactually managed quite separately.
So shelters,transitional, supportive, core need.
(10:06):
These are all quite different in Ontario.
And so, you know, one of thingsI saw right away was that
we were housinglarge numbers of people who,
who maybe shouldn'tactually be in social housing,
or they requireda much higher level of support.
Or when you really needto look at the model,
because the model of independent living
and those go back and say,you know, regulation.
124 of the housing servicesaccess live in Social Housing Ontario.
(10:28):
You have to be able to liveindependently with or without supports.
And yet there's no provision for assessing
that and decidingwhere is the best place to put people.
So for example, in Ottawa,we house, a very large percentage
of the waiting listfor supportive housing in social housing.
You know, they may have supports,
but the supports are quite limitedor they may have no supports at all.
(10:51):
And so the real challenge with housing,people who are
coming out of chronic homelessness,living with mental health or substance
use issues in an independentliving environment.
And so really kindof thinking that, you know,
it is creating challenges.
And I think wethat I talked earlier about,
you know, I've been generating datafrom the health system and emergency
services internallyfor the last couple of years, and just
(11:13):
the cost to the system of our buildings,
which houses a lot of high needfolks, is incredibly high.
So just one thing...
In 2022, I looked at 15 buildings,
which have about 12% of our tenants.
Those buildings have about 3900 tenants.
37% of them visitan emergency room in 2022,
(11:36):
and of those 37%, 40% of themwent for a mental health,
substance use or behavioral issueas a primary or secondary diagnosis.
High, high police calls for service.
High, high fire calls for service.
Same with paramedics.
And then you add to that the costto the landlord in terms of insurance
costs, hoarding, pest issues,
(11:58):
security calls for
services, elevator maintenance.
They are remarkably more expensiveto operate,
which is indicative of the fact
we're housing people who have a lotof challenges living independently.
And often those challenges are,is that they're easily victimized.
And so,you know, when you operate, a housing,
portfolio of independent living.
(12:20):
But people are very vulnerable.
They're often at risk of being victimizedfrom people outside the community
but we’re simply not resourcedto provide the kind of supports
and onsite presence that a supportivehousing provider would have, for example.
So yeah, just some real challengesthat that have not
not only recognize when I started OCH,but I saw were growing year after year.
(12:41):
And it was really so impressive
to hear the data informed approach,the information you were able to take
to the municipalityand government partners
to really indicatethe need and address that gap.
But again, I was just really impressedby what we heard
for OttawaHousing in terms of sharing data and
(13:03):
and informing gaps using that data.
As I mentioned to you earlier,
I mean, gathering that data has been hardwork and complicated.
And I think really the way forward is,
you know,we're beginning to have a discussion,
some of our partners,in order to say, look, let's
all agree that every yearwe are going to pull this data,
(13:23):
because once it's written into a program,
you know, you can add as many postal codesas you want and you can pull it.
But right now is sort of going and asking,please give it to us.
And then two years later you go backand that person is gone.
So you have to educate somebody new
and they might give you somethingslightly different.
So I think, you know, we really needto kind of figure out how to get regular
data pulls from emergency services,the health system,
(13:46):
but also internally,what data are we collecting so that we can...
one of the things about higher billings
with our communities,with lots of higher need, folks, is
what is our service model?
I think there's been a tendencyin social housing to sort of look at
every community as being the sameas every other community,
and we have a service model,which is we kind of spread with
a butter knife,and we need really to think differently.
(14:09):
And I know, for example, Toronto Community Housing is going through a process
of trying to categorize their buildingsinto three levels.
Okay. That's fascinating.
Once you end up with those three bucketsof different communities,
the next step would be say, okay,
what service levelshould we be providing in them?
So, you know, you need to send securityon a regular basis to a community
where there are no security issues.
(14:30):
Some communities are going to havemore wear and tear.
So, you know,what is the maintenance budget
for this community versus that community.
So I think there's
there's some really interesting thingsthat can come out of that.
That's wonderful.
And so inspiring for BC Housingto be able to work through that.
Frank, you've done some amazingwork, in encampments.
(14:52):
Both in the Lower Mainlandand shared your expertise,
on the Island as well.
How do you approach building trust andrapport with the vulnerable population
we serve there and support?
There's such a variety there.
But I know you've been very generousand sharing your,
(15:13):
your knowledge and expertisewith our regional teams.
Yeah.
No, I don't thinkthere's a magic bullet there.
I think it's it's important
for us to sort of recognize, again,that everybody's stories different.
You know, how they sort of ended upexperiencing homelessness is going to be
very different.
So really for our team,it really is just putting in the time.
It's it's sort of as simple as that.
(15:35):
But but it is a lot of work,
to just spend time to be with people,to listen to their stories.
Right.
I know a lot of that is kind ofcliche things, but they’re true right.
We don't want to be judgmental.
We want to be very client centered.
We want to be trauma informed. Right.
But it is actually a really bigand real part of the work.
And, and just recognizing that, folks,that are living rough outdoors,
(15:57):
you know, there's there's likelygoing to be a history of trauma there.
So really, it's it's being there forfolks, being patient, listening to folks.
And, and being really transparentand accountable
for what we say and what we do.
We don't want to overpromise.
We, we tell folks the way it is,
we try to sort of accommodatepeople's needs as much as possible, but
(16:22):
at the same time, be real realistic aroundwhat resources are available.
And again, really appreciate what Briansaid about the experience in Ontario.
Every community is different.
And I think in terms of encampments,we're going to find that every community
is going to have a different setof resources. Right.
And we don't want to be setting upfalse expectations for folks.
(16:43):
And I think it really isjust kind of taking that time,
to work with the individual clientsthat we’re coming across.
It is it is very much a team effort.
Ultimately, we need to have some resourcesto offer folks.
And that's where, you know,our team is working quite closely
with our other teams,
like development services andand with our supportive housing advisors.
(17:04):
Right.
Because we're using, you know,
whatever tools we have availableto try to accommodate people's needs.
Right. It's not easy.
I don't think we've got sort of the magicbullet or the right answer yet again,
we're seeing that encampments are becomingquite common across British Columbia.
But I think that more speaksto sort of that growing kind of gap
(17:26):
between affordabilityand what people incomes are.
It's a bit more complex than that.
But I think that's probably sort of thatsort of umbrella reason of why
people are losing their homes. Right.
I was just going to add a comment.
I found it very interestingwhen Brian and I connected,
that Ottawa isn't seeing the encampments,large encampments,
(17:48):
that we are.You know, they're very small encampments.
We were talking about...
Is that the weather?
But, you know,I'm thinking about the work that you do
you and your team do every day, Frank,and how that's a big part of the work.
But again, it's the regional differencesand the
the fact that one solutiondoesn't fit all.
(18:11):
And we’re makingsure is part of our supportive housing
is cultural supports, you know,
Indigenous supports, Elder supports.
Just wondering if that's,
a part of the model in Ottawa.
As you look at the complex carehousing model.
(18:32):
Not yet.
I mean, we are still kind of fleshing outwhat it would look like.
Certainly some of the
early operationalization of complex carehousing,
is is looking to our partnersto sort of provide that
cultural competence and supportthat we might not, not necessarily have.
So we also look to our partners,in terms of case management,
(18:55):
whether they should be,you know, are providing that.
We house an incredibly diverse population,particularly our family communities.
And so we're always kind of considering
how better we can,you know, we can support them.
One really interesting journey for ushas been the diversification of our staff.
And certainly in my time at OCH,
(19:16):
it has become an incredibly diverse placeas an employer.
You know, multiple languages on staff.
You know,as, as varied as our tendencies are,
I think it's also been really importantfor us to say things
when we're looking for new employeesthat experience
living in social housing is seenas something of value to us.
So that lived experience of, you know,whether on our board or our staff
(19:39):
of having grown up at OCHor any other housing provider,
it really provides, a lens that, you know,someone like myself wouldn't have.
So that's one waywe're kind of we're looking at that.
Boy, again, very inspirational.
And, it just speaks to how we can do
our work very effectively,but in different ways.
(20:00):
Heidi, can you just to helpset the context for a conversation,
can you help explain a little bit
about what we're talking aboutwhen we use the term complex care?
What does that mean for for houses anyway?
Well, it's definitely a program
that we've been looking forward tofor some time.
I will highlight,that it looks very different.
(20:22):
We really do honor whatwhat the needs are in the community.
Complex care housing is really the step above supportive housing
to be able to ensurethat people whose needs aren't being met
in supportivehousing can, get their needs met.
It may be the cultural supportsthey need, home and community care,
(20:47):
complex care, housing, there
there is a range of supports
that may be in the buildingand it may be clinicians,
it may be mental health and addictionsworkers.
Doctors may visit this site.
But really, again, it'sabout the community, our regional health
(21:09):
authorities identifyingwith BC Housing, what are the needs?
Who are the people that aren'thaving their support needs met
and ensuringthose enhanced health services are there.
Those that are above, the,
the meal program,the tenant support workers that are there,
(21:30):
24/7, those on site care,they're additional.
So it's really important to highlight thatcomplex care housing isn't transitional.
It can be somebody's forever home.
So they need those supports,for the rest of their life.
They're welcome to stay there, butthe workers are going to work with them
(21:51):
and make sure that their needs are met.
What we're hearingis that our health authority partners
may reduce the supportneeds, just based on what is happening
in thethose folks lives at that particular time.
So again,just really excited about complex care
for the fact that we know those enhancedhealth services are important
(22:15):
for preservationof housing and continuity of housing,
but better support people to be the bestthey can be.
Frank, when you think about the workthat you do in in community
to help connect peoplewith with housing services
that meet their needs, how does complexcare housing play into that?
What types of clients doyou find are best supported?
(22:37):
Are you finding that it's an importanttool to have in your toolbox?
When you're out there speaking with folksand helping connect them with services?
Yeah,I think complex care has been great.
It's something we've hadfeedback on for many, many years.
With our supportive housing, again,our standards,
sort of staffing model for a supportivehousing site is staff on site 24/7.
(23:00):
But usually 2 or 3 staff on site.
And these are a nonprofit to staff,so they're not clinical staff.
And the nonprofits do a fantastic job
aroundsort of those non-clinical supports.
I think complex care has been greatcoming in to, to really address that gap.
So now when folks are livingin supportive housing,
if they do have care needsthat are a little bit beyond,
(23:22):
what the nonprofit can provide,because maybe they need wound care,
maybe they need medication management,whatever the case might be.
We have nowthis, complex care team in partnership
with the local health authoritieswho can kind of provide those.
And like Heidi says, you know,keep people successfully housed.
Right?
So we're not losing peoplethrough that gap.
It really is
(23:42):
I think a really important partof that housing continuum.
Because now we have folks that are insupportive housing who in the past
may have lost their housingbecause of this lack of,
these complex care, clinical supports,but now they're able to stay there.
And again, over time,if it's a physical health issue,
they're getting the support they need.
(24:03):
They may not need that forever.
And then that that resourcecould be freed up for someone else.
So it's been it'sbeen really, really good.
We always need more toolsand options for people, especially
as we look at, housing-first modeland having a complete housing system.
You know, just as,
(24:23):
a success storyand of course, we won't mention any names.
So about last year or so, prior to complexcare rolling out in the Lower Mainland,
we would often have applicants,that we're working with in the community
who would, be very difficultto, to remain housed.
And we I can think of several individualswho have been repeatedly housed
(24:46):
and have lost housing.Since complex care has been available,
and they've been able to sort ofget support from that program.
They've been able to remain housed.
So it's that's that's been a real,I think, real world
example of how this has been reallyhelpful for some folks.
Yeah, that's all the difference, right?
Yeah.
For people to be able to maintainthat housing is so crucial.
(25:10):
Brian, you're heading back.
This is your vacation timeyou're spending at talking about housing.
That says something.
But you're going to be heading backto Ottawa soon.
What's the one thing that you'rewhat's the top thing
that you're going to bring back with youin terms of what you've learned
from your time here in BC?
So I'm gonna back up a little bit.
It's just interestinghow we we're both using
(25:33):
complex care to get to the same place.
But it's the fit in a very different part.
So for you, complex careis something beyond supportive housing.
In Ontario, supportivehousing is the ultimate
in terms of wraparound 24/7 supports.
For us, complexcare is to fill the gap between
independent social housing living and,
(25:57):
supportive housing, in large partbecause we are housing
lots of peoplewho are eligible for supportive housing,
but are on waitlist or are not ready or notable or not eligible, but
need something more than the independentliving model that that we're funded for.
So for us, it'salmost like it's a it's a place between 24/7
(26:18):
supports and what we have right nowand trying to figure out exactly what.
And of course, that can meanmany different things.
In terms of going back to Ontario,
I mean, I think one of the thingsis really interesting
listening to youis that you have oversight
of a range of optionsin housing that we do not.
We are simply, core need housing.
And we have a new growing, affordablehousing.
(26:39):
So, you know, mid-market,
people paying 70% of marketrent as opposed to 30% of income.
But we are not really moving
into the area of more support and complexcares about trying to solve that.
And whether we do it or we're just looking
for different relationships with partners,whether we're building new or we're
converting existing buildings into moreof a supportive model or structured model.
(27:03):
These are all things that, you know,that we're looking at. You know,
very exciting thingwe're working on right now...
We're looking at turning overa portion of one of our rooming houses,
to a treatment facility.
Why would you do that?
Well, the tenants already live there,
so it's not likewe're inviting in a whole new population.
These are people who do live with usbut don't have access to treatment.
(27:23):
And the goal is,
as opposed to taking that personin need of treatment directly
from the streetsand putting them in independent living.
If they could run through a programand come out the other side
much more capable of being successful
in theirhousing and sustainable in their housing,
these are the sorts of relationshipsand the types of layers
and steps that we want to create.
(27:44):
Because I think, you know,we have these we've got this type of,
you know, we've got supportive housing,that transitional we got,
social housing.
But people's housing need changesover their lives, and we want to move
everyone towards higher and higher levelsof independence, of agency.
And by having different optionsand whether it's
you're in a different buildingor we're just able to move or,
you know, addor do supports in the same building,
(28:07):
you know, for me, complex care housingis anything that takes someone
who has challenges living independently,and that could be
someone coming from the street,but it could also be a senior,
who is
getting close to, you know, not being ablelive independently and just helping them
live with dignity and independencejust a little bit longer.
It's a win for that tenant,but it's also a win for the health system.
(28:28):
It's a win for emergency services.
It's a win for us.
So anything that kind of helpsthat person live
just a little bit longer, a little moreindependently, a little more with dignity.
To be successful.
So, you know, to me, fallsinside the bucket of complex care housing.
I think it's so interestingthat that our jargon is different,
but we're all kind of tryingto do the same thing. Right?
(28:49):
So the province recently rolled out,
what we called the supported rentsupplement program,
which which sounds a lot like whatwhat Ontario was calling complex care.
So this is a again, a partnershipwith, our local health authorities as well
as, Ministry of Social Developmentand poverty reduction.
So for
I don't know what you call them in Ontario,basically the welfare office, right.
(29:12):
Ministry of community social services.
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yeah.
So the supportive rent supplementprogram is really our piece of that
that continuum, right.
That, that you're referring to as,as complex care in Ontario
sounds very similar.
Well, that's interesting,and probably this speaks to your role
as provincial agencyand your connections to other ministries.
(29:34):
I mean, we are a local housingcorporation.
We are a wholly owned corporation,nonprofit housing corporation
of the city of Ottawa,that came to Ottawa through
downloading of, of housing servicesback in the late 90s.
Probably the work that we're doing rightnow is an attempt to be more operational,
although at the same timewe're also talking,
(29:54):
you know, we're advocatingat a provincial municipal level that,
you know, we're trying to fix something.
But this is not just Ottawa's problemalone.
Any large housing provider in Ontario,in Canada has the same issues.
And although there are thingsthat we can be innovative about,
there are some thingsthat province can play a role in changing.
(30:15):
I've known for a long timebecause I was out here a while ago,
visiting some, some local housingorganizations in Vancouver
that you have quite a close relationshipwith the health system.
And we have great health partners.
But I think the fact in BC,there seems to be a direction
from on high that,that housing and health work together.
(30:37):
That's something that we're, we'retrying to work on at a local level.
But having that provincial blessingprobably is, is helpful.
And the Belonging in BC programreally speaks to that
integration and coordinationthat's foundational for complex care.
Frank, You'll find it interesting...
There's no assessments for housing.
(30:58):
So we talked about our coordinatedaccess system in the that
and just some of the differences therethat we see here.
And probably a lot more silosbetween the housing
because we talked about the SRSP rent supplementS and how they're
at the coordinated access tableso we can create that positive flow.
(31:21):
So learnings from each other.
I’m coming back out to look at to take a goodlook at your coordinate access.
Oh, it's been sucha, such a great conversation.
I mean, Brian, I think sometimesin BC, we have a tendency to
really take for
granted some parts of our system here.
What wouldyou leave our BC listeners
(31:44):
with in terms of your perspectiveon what you've seen here?
And, what you what you thinkothers could be learning from?
I think there's just some realcore components of coordination
that exist herethat have existed here for a while,
and I realize they haven't always beenfunded the way,
(32:04):
that you may have wanted them to or,you know,
they change with governments.
But, you know, I for a long time,I've known of the relationship
in Vancouver, particularly between BCHousing and the health system.
So that's something that's really,you know, that that's something valuable.
And something, you know,
that we're trying to develop and probablycould learn from you about that.
(32:27):
I also recognize going back to backto you, our provincial organization,
there's kind of more opportunitiesat a provincial level to
help nurture those types of relationships.
Yeah, that's absolutely true.
Thank you so much for making time to
to come come out here, Brian, andthank you so much, Frank, for joining us.
(32:48):
And Heidi for for helping hosttoday's session.
Let's talk again soon.
To learn more about BC Housing,including how to apply for
subsidized housing in BritishColumbia, visit BChousing.org.
You can also find us on Facebook,Instagram, LinkedIn and X.
(33:08):
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