March 5, 2025 • 26 mins
Author, Founder/CEO of 7Gen Legacy Group, and host of the Legacy, Lyrics, and Life podcast, Shawna Wells, talks about being a legacy architect, LIVING a legacy, not just LEAVING one, the 6 realms of legacy, the crucial generational pivot point, why it takes intention to get to impact, how money is data, and how she’s literally growing her legacy with apples in Vermont.
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Episode Transcript
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Gary Michels (00:00):
Welcome to Let's Talk Legacy. I'm your host, Gary
(00:02):
Michels, and today we haveShawna Wells with us. She's an
author, speaker and coach, aswell as Founder and CEO of 7Gen
Legacy Group, and the host ofLegacy, Lyrics and Life podcast.
I love it. So before we dive in,I just wanted to let you know
we're both here in Vegas,practically neighbors. How did
you make your way to Las Vegas?
Shawna Wells (00:24):
This is always the question, so it's It's in two
parts, and thanks for having me,Gary. So I moved to Las Vegas
in 2004 through an organizationcalled Teach for America. I was
placed in a school to teachseventh grade reading, and so
proudly, taught at JD SmithMiddle school for two years, and
then I left. I went back home toPhiladelphia, which, as you
(00:44):
know, Gary living here. Peoplecome and go a lot, and I founded
a school. I was a principal. Istayed in Philly, that's my
hometown. So when I was here,met my now partner, and when I
finished in Philadelphia, hecalled and said, Hey, are you
thinking of moving somewhere?And I said no, and he said, How
about back to Las Vegas? And Isaid, I don't know. And he's
(01:05):
like, because I'd like to getmarried. And so I ended up back
here with my now partner andthree kids, and here I am. So
now I've been here for 14 years.
Gary Michels (01:17):
So you call yourself a legacy architect. I
love that. Tell us what exactlydoes that mean and what does
that cover?
Shawna Wells (01:26):
Yes, so I hope most people are here to leave
the world better than they foundit. I hope that's a hope of
mine, and as we work alongsidepeople who are working to do
good in the world, social impactleaders, nonprofit leaders,
chief officers in education,what we've come to understand is
that people are here to do welland not always thinking about
(01:49):
the declaration they want tomake on behalf of a life well
lived. And so what I do is I getthe opportunity to work with
leaders who come to us forvarious reasons, and I'll tell
you a few questions they ask uswhen they get on the phone with
us, the first is, I want tofigure out what my next job is.
The second is, I want to figureout how to spend my time better.
I want to figure out how tomanage my team better. Or I'm
(02:10):
just confused. I'm not reallysure where to go next. Some
people call this a quarter lifeor a midlife crisis, but a lot
of people come to us with thosetypes of questions, and what we
do is we think about, well,what's the legacy that you're
aiming to live? And we choosethe word live, because when most
people think about this wordlegacy, they think it's big and
(02:31):
they think it's about dying. Andso what we do is we help them
articulate or declare in onesmall statement, what is it that
you're here to do in the finiteamount of time that you have
with, frankly, finitepossibilities for the time that
you can spend. What do you wantto do? What are you here to do?
And then how do you shape yourlife, your organization, your
(02:51):
leadership team, around what yousaid you want to do? And where
are the spots where you'releaking, where there are
betrayals of self that aredeeply impacting your ability to
align, feel fulfillment orconnection.
Gary Michels (03:05):
Is it almost like an affirmation?
Shawna Wells (03:08):
So it's a little bit more, I think it's more
powerful than an affirmation, ifyou think about it in a company,
it's an evolution of maybe amission statement. For example,
it is saying and getting veryclear on what is important to
me, and what are the things thatI really want to do in this
lifetime to make that happen.And so it's the constructing of
(03:29):
here's the rules that I want tolive by, and here's the impact I
expect they will make betweennow and the time my last breath
on this planet. And one of themost beautiful things that
mentor and teach. Our mind saysis it's not in the amount of the
years, it's in the amount ofbreaths. And so at seven Jen, we
talk a lot about, well, asyou're breathing through life,
what are the things that youwant to do? How do you want to
(03:52):
be as you do them? And those twothings combined can help you
leave the impact or thefingerprints that you want to
leave on the next generations tocome. And the reality is, we're
all leaving a legacy, whetheryou claim it or not, we're all
leaving one.
Gary Michels (04:07):
What does word legacy mean to you in general?
Shawna Wells (04:10):
All right, so when you go to Google and you type in
legacy, the first definition oflegacy is to leave something
behind, particularly material bywill. And the example is she
left someone a legacy of amillion dollars. And when I hear
that definition, it just makesmy heartbeat a little faster and
(04:30):
makes my skin crawl a littlebit, because what it means is
the only way to leave a legacyis with cash and the work that
you do, you know Gary likethere's so much actually behind
the cash.
Gary Michels (04:43):
Yeah.
Shawna Wells (04:44):
Money is data, right? It's where we spend our
time. I say often to ourclients, listen, you have three
moral, moral documents that youlive by. You've got your budget,
you've got your calendar, andyou've got the photos you take
on your phone, if you have aphone that takes pictures,
right? Those are the threethings. Really document your
life that tells you what youcare about, because you're
willing to spend time and energyon it. So when we define legacy,
(05:06):
what we say is legacy is a lifewell lived by way of six realms.
And so I'll share the sixrealms, because I think they're
helpful to make legacy a littlebit smaller as we start to think
about then, what do I do withthat? So play, you can leave a
legacy of play. And we startwith play, because most people
try to leave legacy at work, andso it's a little bit disruptive.
(05:28):
So a legacy of play. How do youplay? How do you teach others
how to play? How do you use playto disrupt generationally, maybe
some of the harmful patternsthat have been put in place well
being. How do you leave a legacyof well being, both spiritually
and emotionally and physically?The second the third realm,
(05:48):
relationships and community.What's the legacy you're living
by inside of your relationship,in your community? How are you
treating the people around you?How are you building with them?
What have you teared down alegacy of financial freedom. And
we say financial freedom becauseit's not about accumulating as
much. It's your as you can. It'sabout accumulating enough to
live the life in which you findenergy, joy, commitment,
(06:12):
connection, and the ability tomove through the tensions that
that creates a legacy ofservice. How do you choose to
serve? And then a legacy ofwork. And we take the two apart,
because most people, a lot ofpeople we work with, work in
lines of service, and those twothings in bed together can cause
a relationship of tension,right? I'm wrapping myself
(06:34):
around my work and my service,and I have lost my identity. So
those six areas are where we canstart when we think about
legacy.
Gary Michels (06:40):
So two big words that you seem central to leaving
a legacy are intention andimpact. I love those words
because they're such powerfulwords. What's the importance of
those words to you?
Shawna Wells (06:52):
Oh, gosh, well, I would. I'm going to add a third
word, which is alignment. So yougo to the chiropractor. Have you
been?
Gary Michels (07:00):
I've been, yes.
Shawna Wells (07:02):
So you know when you go to the chiropractor.
There's like, they do some movesunless, like, I didn't even know
I had bones that move rightthough, all the cracks that you
feel when you go to thechiropractor moving your body
into alignment. If you believein that kind of medicine, when
we think about legacy, we thinkall of these things, as you
mentioned, are connected and arecoming into alignment with one
another in order for you to liveintentionally and build towards
(07:24):
impact. So those three wordsreally are in relationship to
one another when we're workinginside of legacy, which is to
say you've got your legacystatement. What would it mean to
align all of these pieces to it?And then how does that help you
build with intention and leaveand live the impact that you
intend.
Gary Michels (07:42):
So you work with people and companies to build
impact you say will last for thenext seven generations. We
actually had a guest onpreviously, who was a Native
American historian, and spokeabout the seven generations
principle as being veryimportant to her people as well.
Can you share why seven is themagic number as opposed to five
(08:04):
or nine or 11? Why seven?
Shawna Wells (08:07):
We feel deeply connected to this principle
because of the wisdom that havecome from the indigenous and for
me, in particular, from theAfrican people. At the thought
of Sankofa, right? In order togo, in order to learn, you need
to go back to be able to pick upthe gifts from the last
generation. I am a data head. Sothen we put research to it. What
do we know about generationalright now? The thing that's most
(08:29):
measured is wealth, generationalwealth, and what does it mean to
stay and so two things we foundout. The first is that three
generations of wealth is thepivot point of being able to
build sustainably, a legacy ofwealth. Well, in order to do
that, if you look at some of thewealthiest people, like the
carnegies, for example, in orderto do that, you have to have all
(08:52):
sorts of familial structuresaround that, and you've got to
be able to meet and talk aboutthe things that are most
important to you and for them,it was about the passing of
money. We said, what if we applywhat we know to every other
realm? What does that mean?Well, in three generations, you
gain the things that you need,or the thought processes that
(09:13):
you need, the structures thatyou need to really carry forth
the belief system of yourlineage. After three
generations, then it's on thenext three generations to really
make that solidified, to makesure that everything that has
been passed on continues to getpassed, and that last
generation, the seventhgeneration, we hope, then gets
to live in freedom. Now, do wehave proof? No, because I
(09:36):
haven't lived for sevengenerations. I don't know,
right, but I do rely on thewisdom, and we rely on the
wisdom of those who have comebefore us to tell us this
generational thinking ishelpful. Generations is 20 years
in the making. So if we go backthree generations, that takes us
back to the year 1965 so you canthink about what was happening
in 1965 and the generationalimpact that we experienced. Less
(10:00):
than three generations. Thereare five generations in the
workforce, which is why we'reexperiencing so much friction
that people the newestgeneration is having trouble
understanding the oldestgeneration, and so it's been
hard, right? Why we're so mad atall the different millennials,
Gen Zs, Gen X, right? All thosethings boomers, right? We're so
(10:21):
annoyed with each other becausewe just don't understand
generationally, all differentlife experience that are
informing our decision makingand what we value. And so we
take this principle and wespread it over seven
generations. We think if we canlead to continuity of the
conversation, then we can startto connect in different ways.
Gary Michels (10:38):
Do you feel like there needs to be more work done
on the different generationsunderstanding each other more?
Shawna Wells (10:44):
Completely. Part of it is, if you really think
about our responsibility to eachother, is to understand the
conditions in which people arecoming to us and figure out how
that relates to our own livesand well being. And I think
about my own grandmother. Sheloves chocolate, and so I
ordered chocolate to her houseusing Uber, and it arrived at
(11:07):
her doorstep. Now my grandmotherwas she grew up in Alabama, and
she was a sharecropper, and herfamily also sharecroppers, and
she was the first entrepreneurthat I've met, and I draw a lot
of strength from her, but shecould not understand how I use
my phone to order chocolate toher house from a whole different
(11:30):
zip code. She just didn't getit. So then you think about
that's like, just a sillyexample, but you think about,
then all of the ways in whichwe're just living differently
because I don't know it, myautomatic human instinct is to
judge it, because I don't knowit, right? And I feel I'm like,
oh, I should know this. I'molder, right? And so part of it
is we need new systems andconditions to be able to talk
(11:52):
generationally. And one of thethings that we're really proud
of is that we run this programin high schools to help students
really start to think aboutwhat's the legacy I want to live
and leave, so that they can thatthey can make informed decisions
about, Do I want to go tocollege, or do I want to do
something else? Or when I say Iwant to build generational
wealth, what do I actually mean?One of the first assignments we
(12:12):
ask them to do is find someonewho is 60 years or older and
interview them. We help themwrite the questions for the
interview and the kinds ofthings that they learn that help
them and gain perspective ontheir own existence is really
magical, because they're notthinking about that. I'm not
thinking about that. So slowingdown long enough to ask
(12:35):
questions is a real gift. I knowmy teacher used to say, you're
going to use this algebra everyday? Well, I never, I don't
think I use algebra ever. Wehave people who run numbers in
our company, right? But thisconcept of we're going to use
these mindsets every single day.We're going to use this idea of
legacy every single day to helpus make decisions in our lives
(12:58):
through our you know, our teens,our 20s, our 30s, that's what
we're working to give so peoplecan work with us. We come into
high schools and we actuallyembed ourselves inside of the
high school. We work alongsideteachers and leaders to help
them understand the concepts oflegacy, and then to take that
and work with their students toreally help them think about
when I make this big choice at18 years old to do whatever is
(13:22):
next for me. What do I want toconsider? And of course, it will
change. We all change. I'mdifferent than when I was 18.
But what are the questions Imight ask myself to really
understand what it is I'm tryingto do?
Gary Michels (13:33):
Is there one big story that you think our
listeners would really touchtheir heart a little bit, or
something that touches yourheart?
Shawna Wells (13:40):
Yeah, I'll tell you. We worked with a
beautiful... so we work withclients in many different ways.
So we worked with a beautifulhuman on her personal legacy
statement, a new mom, a chiefexecutive in a social impact
organization, really trying tofigure out, what is this life
that I have accepted. I'm prettyexhausted, and that's what she
(14:03):
came to us. And when we meetwith folks, the first question
we ask is, you know, what areyou aiming to do, and what is a
legacy or aiming to live andleave? After our first session,
she said, I did a lot ofthinking. She came back to our
second session, and she said, Ilove the work that I do. I did
not think about it next to whatit means to be the mom I want to
(14:25):
be. I said, Well, what does thatmean? And she said, My son is
not well, like he has agenerational disease, and I have
chosen to locate my family in aplace where he cannot get access
to the doctors that he needsbecause of my work. I said,
Well, what are you going to doabout that? She said, My legacy
tells me I have to change jobs.And so she worked for 18 months
(14:50):
to build up the financialfreedom she needed, the
relationship she needed, thecommunity she needed in the
place where her son could getthe best care, and she moved
and. Is all of that because sheinterrogated, what is it that
I'm really about? What do I careabout? And I tell that story
because, notice, it took her 18months to get from where she was
to where she wanted to be. Mostpeople think legacy. Once I got
(15:13):
my personal legacy statement,I'm going to change all the
things. And we're actuallyworking with people to say, No,
build the life that you wantover time to get to the outcome
you want to get to. And I justshare that story because we
started working with her,because she wanted help as a
leader, to build the team andthe structure and time
(15:33):
management and all those things.She really made a personal
decision to say, I haveconstructed a life that used to
feel relevant and no longer doesand made did the hard work to
shift and change it. Sometimeswe convince ourselves we don't
have the power or agency to dothat we actually do. But back to
those words of intention andimpact. It takes intention to
(15:57):
get to the impact that weintend, and these times, it's
easy to get distracted by thingsthat by the next best thing, and
to be able to really come backto the self and research the
self is a real testament to thework of legacy.
Gary Michels (16:12):
Love it. So what legacy do you hope to leave
behind through your work?
Shawna Wells (16:18):
Yes, oh, I have my own personal legacy statement. I
recommend we all have one. Sowhen I first wrote my legacy
statement, you'll hear on mypodcast, what I share is it was
so flat. Someone asked me, Well,what's wrong with that? And I
said, Well, flat is differentthan simple. When I first wrote
my legacy statement, it was allsurrounded. It was woven into
work, my definition of successbecause of the lineage I came
(16:42):
from. My parents did the bestthat they could. They worked a
lot. And so to me, that's whatsuccess was. They were like, you
are going to achieve. So great Iachieve. But I was feeling so
wrapped up. My identity is, ifyou take work away from it,
pretty non existent. So overtime, I evolved my legacy
statement to be something that'smuch more robust and pictures
the six realms. And there's thisportion that I'll share because
(17:05):
people say it's the mostpowerful. What I say in my
legacy statement is that I willbe someone who builds spaces of
joy and possibilityunapologetically, and that in
order to do that, I will getenergy from my closest friends
and my children. And when I saymy children, what I mean is the
generation coming after us. If Ididn't have my own I would take
responsibility for and I do takeresponsibility for the
(17:28):
generation coming after as muchas I can. And those two things
actually help me fuel my day. Itallows me to make decisions
about my own well being, forexample, if I don't have any
time with close friends in agiven week, I know I'm going to
be less effective in creatingspaces for people enjoy and
possibility. So as I think aboutthe work that I do, I create
(17:53):
spaces of joy and possibility,particularly for women and for
black women, women of color andthose working in allyship to
ensure that we actually cancreate a declaration for the
lives we want to live and lead.
Gary Michels (18:07):
I'm doing a lot of thinking and soul searching
here, because I think we allshould live our lives like that.
Is like, how am I living mylegacy? Not when I die, but
while I'm still living, becauseI can make an impact while I'm
still living.
Shawna Wells (18:17):
Yes, we're so convinced that if we just leave
the right construction of thewill and the thing, it's like,
no, when people tell story, whenthey talk about your eulogy, and
that's an exercise we havepeople do is write the things
that people will say about you.They're not talking about names
on buildings and cash in thebank. That may be important, but
it's not all of it. It's not thewhole story. And I think that's
(18:39):
the piece of legacy that we wehave not yet told the whole
story, which is why I love yourpodcast. On you're really
interrogating this idea ofrobustly, what does the word
mean, right?
Gary Michels (18:48):
Well, so you and your family also own land in
Vermont, including an orchardthat you see continue with your
ancestors legacy. Talk aboutthat a little bit.
Shawna Wells (18:57):
Yeah. Somebody asked me the other day. They're
like, what's the what is themost unusual thing that you have
ever purchased? And I was like,80 apple trees. So we have on
our house in Vermont, 80 appletrees. And first of all, I have
no idea how to care for 80 appletrees. So I'll just say that to
know about these apple trees iseach of them is a unique species
(19:20):
of Apple. We were able to getthe property from two owners
ago. Was a farmer, and he wouldgraft his own apples, which they
think is a beautiful story andcould have been forgotten, but
not for a little map that wasleft inside of the basement of
the barn, and it has each of thenames of the apples, which I
(19:40):
just think is such a beautiful,natural articulation of legacy,
but to connect to our ancestors.I told you, my grandmother was
not by choice, a farmer, and Iwatched her growing up in her
backyard. She moved from Alabamato Hamilton, Ohio, which. Which
my dad still wears proudly as abadge and has just moved back
(20:03):
there. But in her backyard, shehad the most beautiful garden.
And growing up, I told you, Igrew up where I sat out of
outside of Philly, I didn'texperience people growing
things, and so when I wouldvisit her, putting hands in the
dirt with my grandmother is oneof the most profound memories
that I have of her, and I was sotaken aback by her ability to
(20:25):
say, this ground isn't well, andshe would do something to it,
and like collard greens, wouldbe growing next, what the place
in Vermont has allowed us to do,and what the farm in our
backyard here, and I call it afarm, it's a garden our backyard
in Las Vegas. It's allowed me toget back in touch with my
ability to grow things, andactually, to create synergy
between my ability to grow mycompany and my ability to grow a
(20:49):
natural thing in the backyard.And that is a gift from my
ancestors. And so I say often,Vermont has given me the chance
to one own land, which myancestors were not always able
to do, and two to tend to it andto learn who we have become
through that physical exercise,as opposed to leaving behind of
the material.
Gary Michels (21:09):
So you've got a podcast.
Shawna Wells (21:11):
We do.
Gary Michels (21:12):
Tell me a little bit about your podcast.
Shawna Wells (21:14):
Yeah. So, you know, I think like you having
listened to your podcast, likewe wanted to answer the question
for folks, what is a legacy?What does that mean? This word
can seem so intimidating, andhow can we approach our lives
through it. And I decided,through our work with leaders
that it just needed its owndefinition, but it needed to be
(21:34):
most profoundly defined by theleaders who are experiencing the
impact of living with a legacymindset. So on our podcast, we
interview leaders who havereally started to embody this
idea of legacy, and they talkabout what's hard about it and
what's good about it, and whatthey've discovered along the
way. And I like to say it's avery candid podcast. I know most
(21:57):
of the guests, so we talk veryintimately about their journey,
so you can hear from them.Here's what it's been like to
come in into contact with thisword, and then at the end, we
ask every guest, what's a lyricthat would embody your legacy?
Because I am a music nerd,legacy is often left in music,
and we can hear the legacy ofthe instrument, or the legacy of
(22:20):
the singer, of the designer, ofwhat we hear with our own ears
through music and so often. AndI'm going to ask you in a
second, Gary, what's your song?
Gary Michels (22:29):
I'm already thinking about it right now.
Shawna Wells (22:32):
The legacy of music is so profound that it can
take us. We're walking throughthe store and we hear a song,
and it takes us right back toour 12 year old self, or right
back to our grandmother'skitchen and our right back to a
best friend telling ussomething. And I there is
nothing like that in the world.Music is such a profound gift
that that we've been given as ashuman people. So do you have
(22:52):
a...
Gary Michels (22:53):
I do. Start Me Up by Rolling Stones, for sure.
That's probably my lyric,because I feel like every day is
a new day. Let's get it going soI can be my best. That's
probably, I mean, there's somany others. I can sit with
music for hours. What's yours?
Shawna Wells (23:06):
You know? So today in particular, so I think we're
sitting in a paradoxical moment,and we've got a lot a lot of
people are breathing easy. A lotof people are holding their
breath. A lot of people are, youknow, there's a lot of people
experiencing different realitiesright now. So for me, today,
it's a change is going to comeby. Sam Cook, it's the line a
change is going to come. And Isay that because, for better or
(23:30):
for worse, change is comingalways beyond like today feels
poignant for some folks, butyesterday could have felt
poignant for some folks. And theday before and the day before,
change is always coming. And Ithink we can actually find real
power in embracing that changeis part of our lives, and that
we get to decide how we respondto it, and that is part of a
(23:52):
life well lived, is to figureout, how do I how do I align
myself in moments of change thatfeel rather disruptive to some
and change is different foreveryone.
Gary Michels (24:02):
The last question I have for you, if someone wants
to get in touch with you to hearmore about your services and
what you do, how would theyreach you?
Shawna Wells (24:10):
Yes, you can find me. You can always find me on
LinkedIn. So my name is ShawnaWells. The second place you can
find us is on our website. 7Gen,the number seven. Gen,
legacy.com and you can findeverything we do there. So
that's the first place to stop.And I would say, sign up for our
newsletter. We do a lot ofconversations with leaders. We
give tips and advice. We shareour podcast drops. Everything
(24:33):
you need to know about ushappens through our newsletter.
And so come there.
Gary Michels (24:38):
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Shawna, this
has been such a pleasure. I knowour listeners got a lot of it. I
got a lot of it. I've takennotes here, and this is, I love
talking about this kind of stuff.
Shawna Wells (24:48):
Thank you so much for asking us to be on it and
for the conversation, it wasreally beautiful.
Welcome to Let's Talk Legacy. I'm your host, Gary
(00:02):
Michels, and today we haveShawna Wells with us. She's an
author, speaker and coach, aswell as Founder and CEO of 7Gen
Legacy Group, and the host ofLegacy, Lyrics and Life podcast.
I love it. So before we dive in,I just wanted to let you know
we're both here in Vegas,practically neighbors. How did
you make your way to Las Vegas?
Shawna Wells (00:24):
This is always the question, so it's It's in two
parts, and thanks for having me,Gary. So I moved to Las Vegas
in 2004 through an organizationcalled Teach for America. I was
placed in a school to teachseventh grade reading, and so
proudly, taught at JD SmithMiddle school for two years, and
then I left. I went back home toPhiladelphia, which, as you
(00:44):
know, Gary living here. Peoplecome and go a lot, and I founded
a school. I was a principal. Istayed in Philly, that's my
hometown. So when I was here,met my now partner, and when I
finished in Philadelphia, hecalled and said, Hey, are you
thinking of moving somewhere?And I said no, and he said, How
about back to Las Vegas? And Isaid, I don't know. And he's
(01:05):
like, because I'd like to getmarried. And so I ended up back
here with my now partner andthree kids, and here I am. So
now I've been here for 14 years.
Gary Michels (01:17):
So you call yourself a legacy architect. I
love that. Tell us what exactlydoes that mean and what does
that cover?
Shawna Wells (01:26):
Yes, so I hope most people are here to leave
the world better than they foundit. I hope that's a hope of
mine, and as we work alongsidepeople who are working to do
good in the world, social impactleaders, nonprofit leaders,
chief officers in education,what we've come to understand is
that people are here to do welland not always thinking about
(01:49):
the declaration they want tomake on behalf of a life well
lived. And so what I do is I getthe opportunity to work with
leaders who come to us forvarious reasons, and I'll tell
you a few questions they ask uswhen they get on the phone with
us, the first is, I want tofigure out what my next job is.
The second is, I want to figureout how to spend my time better.
I want to figure out how tomanage my team better. Or I'm
(02:10):
just confused. I'm not reallysure where to go next. Some
people call this a quarter lifeor a midlife crisis, but a lot
of people come to us with thosetypes of questions, and what we
do is we think about, well,what's the legacy that you're
aiming to live? And we choosethe word live, because when most
people think about this wordlegacy, they think it's big and
(02:31):
they think it's about dying. Andso what we do is we help them
articulate or declare in onesmall statement, what is it that
you're here to do in the finiteamount of time that you have
with, frankly, finitepossibilities for the time that
you can spend. What do you wantto do? What are you here to do?
And then how do you shape yourlife, your organization, your
(02:51):
leadership team, around what yousaid you want to do? And where
are the spots where you'releaking, where there are
betrayals of self that aredeeply impacting your ability to
align, feel fulfillment orconnection.
Gary Michels (03:05):
Is it almost like an affirmation?
Shawna Wells (03:08):
So it's a little bit more, I think it's more
powerful than an affirmation, ifyou think about it in a company,
it's an evolution of maybe amission statement. For example,
it is saying and getting veryclear on what is important to
me, and what are the things thatI really want to do in this
lifetime to make that happen.And so it's the constructing of
(03:29):
here's the rules that I want tolive by, and here's the impact I
expect they will make betweennow and the time my last breath
on this planet. And one of themost beautiful things that
mentor and teach. Our mind saysis it's not in the amount of the
years, it's in the amount ofbreaths. And so at seven Jen, we
talk a lot about, well, asyou're breathing through life,
what are the things that youwant to do? How do you want to
(03:52):
be as you do them? And those twothings combined can help you
leave the impact or thefingerprints that you want to
leave on the next generations tocome. And the reality is, we're
all leaving a legacy, whetheryou claim it or not, we're all
leaving one.
Gary Michels (04:07):
What does word legacy mean to you in general?
Shawna Wells (04:10):
All right, so when you go to Google and you type in
legacy, the first definition oflegacy is to leave something
behind, particularly material bywill. And the example is she
left someone a legacy of amillion dollars. And when I hear
that definition, it just makesmy heartbeat a little faster and
(04:30):
makes my skin crawl a littlebit, because what it means is
the only way to leave a legacyis with cash and the work that
you do, you know Gary likethere's so much actually behind
the cash.
Gary Michels (04:43):
Yeah.
Shawna Wells (04:44):
Money is data, right? It's where we spend our
time. I say often to ourclients, listen, you have three
moral, moral documents that youlive by. You've got your budget,
you've got your calendar, andyou've got the photos you take
on your phone, if you have aphone that takes pictures,
right? Those are the threethings. Really document your
life that tells you what youcare about, because you're
willing to spend time and energyon it. So when we define legacy,
(05:06):
what we say is legacy is a lifewell lived by way of six realms.
And so I'll share the sixrealms, because I think they're
helpful to make legacy a littlebit smaller as we start to think
about then, what do I do withthat? So play, you can leave a
legacy of play. And we startwith play, because most people
try to leave legacy at work, andso it's a little bit disruptive.
(05:28):
So a legacy of play. How do youplay? How do you teach others
how to play? How do you use playto disrupt generationally, maybe
some of the harmful patternsthat have been put in place well
being. How do you leave a legacyof well being, both spiritually
and emotionally and physically?The second the third realm,
(05:48):
relationships and community.What's the legacy you're living
by inside of your relationship,in your community? How are you
treating the people around you?How are you building with them?
What have you teared down alegacy of financial freedom. And
we say financial freedom becauseit's not about accumulating as
much. It's your as you can. It'sabout accumulating enough to
live the life in which you findenergy, joy, commitment,
(06:12):
connection, and the ability tomove through the tensions that
that creates a legacy ofservice. How do you choose to
serve? And then a legacy ofwork. And we take the two apart,
because most people, a lot ofpeople we work with, work in
lines of service, and those twothings in bed together can cause
a relationship of tension,right? I'm wrapping myself
(06:34):
around my work and my service,and I have lost my identity. So
those six areas are where we canstart when we think about
legacy.
Gary Michels (06:40):
So two big words that you seem central to leaving
a legacy are intention andimpact. I love those words
because they're such powerfulwords. What's the importance of
those words to you?
Shawna Wells (06:52):
Oh, gosh, well, I would. I'm going to add a third
word, which is alignment. So yougo to the chiropractor. Have you
been?
Gary Michels (07:00):
I've been, yes.
Shawna Wells (07:02):
So you know when you go to the chiropractor.
There's like, they do some movesunless, like, I didn't even know
I had bones that move rightthough, all the cracks that you
feel when you go to thechiropractor moving your body
into alignment. If you believein that kind of medicine, when
we think about legacy, we thinkall of these things, as you
mentioned, are connected and arecoming into alignment with one
another in order for you to liveintentionally and build towards
(07:24):
impact. So those three wordsreally are in relationship to
one another when we're workinginside of legacy, which is to
say you've got your legacystatement. What would it mean to
align all of these pieces to it?And then how does that help you
build with intention and leaveand live the impact that you
intend.
Gary Michels (07:42):
So you work with people and companies to build
impact you say will last for thenext seven generations. We
actually had a guest onpreviously, who was a Native
American historian, and spokeabout the seven generations
principle as being veryimportant to her people as well.
Can you share why seven is themagic number as opposed to five
(08:04):
or nine or 11? Why seven?
Shawna Wells (08:07):
We feel deeply connected to this principle
because of the wisdom that havecome from the indigenous and for
me, in particular, from theAfrican people. At the thought
of Sankofa, right? In order togo, in order to learn, you need
to go back to be able to pick upthe gifts from the last
generation. I am a data head. Sothen we put research to it. What
do we know about generationalright now? The thing that's most
(08:29):
measured is wealth, generationalwealth, and what does it mean to
stay and so two things we foundout. The first is that three
generations of wealth is thepivot point of being able to
build sustainably, a legacy ofwealth. Well, in order to do
that, if you look at some of thewealthiest people, like the
carnegies, for example, in orderto do that, you have to have all
(08:52):
sorts of familial structuresaround that, and you've got to
be able to meet and talk aboutthe things that are most
important to you and for them,it was about the passing of
money. We said, what if we applywhat we know to every other
realm? What does that mean?Well, in three generations, you
gain the things that you need,or the thought processes that
(09:13):
you need, the structures thatyou need to really carry forth
the belief system of yourlineage. After three
generations, then it's on thenext three generations to really
make that solidified, to makesure that everything that has
been passed on continues to getpassed, and that last
generation, the seventhgeneration, we hope, then gets
to live in freedom. Now, do wehave proof? No, because I
(09:36):
haven't lived for sevengenerations. I don't know,
right, but I do rely on thewisdom, and we rely on the
wisdom of those who have comebefore us to tell us this
generational thinking ishelpful. Generations is 20 years
in the making. So if we go backthree generations, that takes us
back to the year 1965 so you canthink about what was happening
in 1965 and the generationalimpact that we experienced. Less
(10:00):
than three generations. Thereare five generations in the
workforce, which is why we'reexperiencing so much friction
that people the newestgeneration is having trouble
understanding the oldestgeneration, and so it's been
hard, right? Why we're so mad atall the different millennials,
Gen Zs, Gen X, right? All thosethings boomers, right? We're so
(10:21):
annoyed with each other becausewe just don't understand
generationally, all differentlife experience that are
informing our decision makingand what we value. And so we
take this principle and wespread it over seven
generations. We think if we canlead to continuity of the
conversation, then we can startto connect in different ways.
Gary Michels (10:38):
Do you feel like there needs to be more work done
on the different generationsunderstanding each other more?
Shawna Wells (10:44):
Completely. Part of it is, if you really think
about our responsibility to eachother, is to understand the
conditions in which people arecoming to us and figure out how
that relates to our own livesand well being. And I think
about my own grandmother. Sheloves chocolate, and so I
ordered chocolate to her houseusing Uber, and it arrived at
(11:07):
her doorstep. Now my grandmotherwas she grew up in Alabama, and
she was a sharecropper, and herfamily also sharecroppers, and
she was the first entrepreneurthat I've met, and I draw a lot
of strength from her, but shecould not understand how I use
my phone to order chocolate toher house from a whole different
(11:30):
zip code. She just didn't getit. So then you think about
that's like, just a sillyexample, but you think about,
then all of the ways in whichwe're just living differently
because I don't know it, myautomatic human instinct is to
judge it, because I don't knowit, right? And I feel I'm like,
oh, I should know this. I'molder, right? And so part of it
is we need new systems andconditions to be able to talk
(11:52):
generationally. And one of thethings that we're really proud
of is that we run this programin high schools to help students
really start to think aboutwhat's the legacy I want to live
and leave, so that they can thatthey can make informed decisions
about, Do I want to go tocollege, or do I want to do
something else? Or when I say Iwant to build generational
wealth, what do I actually mean?One of the first assignments we
(12:12):
ask them to do is find someonewho is 60 years or older and
interview them. We help themwrite the questions for the
interview and the kinds ofthings that they learn that help
them and gain perspective ontheir own existence is really
magical, because they're notthinking about that. I'm not
thinking about that. So slowingdown long enough to ask
(12:35):
questions is a real gift. I knowmy teacher used to say, you're
going to use this algebra everyday? Well, I never, I don't
think I use algebra ever. Wehave people who run numbers in
our company, right? But thisconcept of we're going to use
these mindsets every single day.We're going to use this idea of
legacy every single day to helpus make decisions in our lives
(12:58):
through our you know, our teens,our 20s, our 30s, that's what
we're working to give so peoplecan work with us. We come into
high schools and we actuallyembed ourselves inside of the
high school. We work alongsideteachers and leaders to help
them understand the concepts oflegacy, and then to take that
and work with their students toreally help them think about
when I make this big choice at18 years old to do whatever is
(13:22):
next for me. What do I want toconsider? And of course, it will
change. We all change. I'mdifferent than when I was 18.
But what are the questions Imight ask myself to really
understand what it is I'm tryingto do?
Gary Michels (13:33):
Is there one big story that you think our
listeners would really touchtheir heart a little bit, or
something that touches yourheart?
Shawna Wells (13:40):
Yeah, I'll tell you. We worked with a
beautiful... so we work withclients in many different ways.
So we worked with a beautifulhuman on her personal legacy
statement, a new mom, a chiefexecutive in a social impact
organization, really trying tofigure out, what is this life
that I have accepted. I'm prettyexhausted, and that's what she
(14:03):
came to us. And when we meetwith folks, the first question
we ask is, you know, what areyou aiming to do, and what is a
legacy or aiming to live andleave? After our first session,
she said, I did a lot ofthinking. She came back to our
second session, and she said, Ilove the work that I do. I did
not think about it next to whatit means to be the mom I want to
(14:25):
be. I said, Well, what does thatmean? And she said, My son is
not well, like he has agenerational disease, and I have
chosen to locate my family in aplace where he cannot get access
to the doctors that he needsbecause of my work. I said,
Well, what are you going to doabout that? She said, My legacy
tells me I have to change jobs.And so she worked for 18 months
(14:50):
to build up the financialfreedom she needed, the
relationship she needed, thecommunity she needed in the
place where her son could getthe best care, and she moved
and. Is all of that because sheinterrogated, what is it that
I'm really about? What do I careabout? And I tell that story
because, notice, it took her 18months to get from where she was
to where she wanted to be. Mostpeople think legacy. Once I got
(15:13):
my personal legacy statement,I'm going to change all the
things. And we're actuallyworking with people to say, No,
build the life that you wantover time to get to the outcome
you want to get to. And I justshare that story because we
started working with her,because she wanted help as a
leader, to build the team andthe structure and time
(15:33):
management and all those things.She really made a personal
decision to say, I haveconstructed a life that used to
feel relevant and no longer doesand made did the hard work to
shift and change it. Sometimeswe convince ourselves we don't
have the power or agency to dothat we actually do. But back to
those words of intention andimpact. It takes intention to
(15:57):
get to the impact that weintend, and these times, it's
easy to get distracted by thingsthat by the next best thing, and
to be able to really come backto the self and research the
self is a real testament to thework of legacy.
Gary Michels (16:12):
Love it. So what legacy do you hope to leave
behind through your work?
Shawna Wells (16:18):
Yes, oh, I have my own personal legacy statement. I
recommend we all have one. Sowhen I first wrote my legacy
statement, you'll hear on mypodcast, what I share is it was
so flat. Someone asked me, Well,what's wrong with that? And I
said, Well, flat is differentthan simple. When I first wrote
my legacy statement, it was allsurrounded. It was woven into
work, my definition of successbecause of the lineage I came
(16:42):
from. My parents did the bestthat they could. They worked a
lot. And so to me, that's whatsuccess was. They were like, you
are going to achieve. So great Iachieve. But I was feeling so
wrapped up. My identity is, ifyou take work away from it,
pretty non existent. So overtime, I evolved my legacy
statement to be something that'smuch more robust and pictures
the six realms. And there's thisportion that I'll share because
(17:05):
people say it's the mostpowerful. What I say in my
legacy statement is that I willbe someone who builds spaces of
joy and possibilityunapologetically, and that in
order to do that, I will getenergy from my closest friends
and my children. And when I saymy children, what I mean is the
generation coming after us. If Ididn't have my own I would take
responsibility for and I do takeresponsibility for the
(17:28):
generation coming after as muchas I can. And those two things
actually help me fuel my day. Itallows me to make decisions
about my own well being, forexample, if I don't have any
time with close friends in agiven week, I know I'm going to
be less effective in creatingspaces for people enjoy and
possibility. So as I think aboutthe work that I do, I create
(17:53):
spaces of joy and possibility,particularly for women and for
black women, women of color andthose working in allyship to
ensure that we actually cancreate a declaration for the
lives we want to live and lead.
Gary Michels (18:07):
I'm doing a lot of thinking and soul searching
here, because I think we allshould live our lives like that.
Is like, how am I living mylegacy? Not when I die, but
while I'm still living, becauseI can make an impact while I'm
still living.
Shawna Wells (18:17):
Yes, we're so convinced that if we just leave
the right construction of thewill and the thing, it's like,
no, when people tell story, whenthey talk about your eulogy, and
that's an exercise we havepeople do is write the things
that people will say about you.They're not talking about names
on buildings and cash in thebank. That may be important, but
it's not all of it. It's not thewhole story. And I think that's
(18:39):
the piece of legacy that we wehave not yet told the whole
story, which is why I love yourpodcast. On you're really
interrogating this idea ofrobustly, what does the word
mean, right?
Gary Michels (18:48):
Well, so you and your family also own land in
Vermont, including an orchardthat you see continue with your
ancestors legacy. Talk aboutthat a little bit.
Shawna Wells (18:57):
Yeah. Somebody asked me the other day. They're
like, what's the what is themost unusual thing that you have
ever purchased? And I was like,80 apple trees. So we have on
our house in Vermont, 80 appletrees. And first of all, I have
no idea how to care for 80 appletrees. So I'll just say that to
know about these apple trees iseach of them is a unique species
(19:20):
of Apple. We were able to getthe property from two owners
ago. Was a farmer, and he wouldgraft his own apples, which they
think is a beautiful story andcould have been forgotten, but
not for a little map that wasleft inside of the basement of
the barn, and it has each of thenames of the apples, which I
(19:40):
just think is such a beautiful,natural articulation of legacy,
but to connect to our ancestors.I told you, my grandmother was
not by choice, a farmer, and Iwatched her growing up in her
backyard. She moved from Alabamato Hamilton, Ohio, which. Which
my dad still wears proudly as abadge and has just moved back
(20:03):
there. But in her backyard, shehad the most beautiful garden.
And growing up, I told you, Igrew up where I sat out of
outside of Philly, I didn'texperience people growing
things, and so when I wouldvisit her, putting hands in the
dirt with my grandmother is oneof the most profound memories
that I have of her, and I was sotaken aback by her ability to
(20:25):
say, this ground isn't well, andshe would do something to it,
and like collard greens, wouldbe growing next, what the place
in Vermont has allowed us to do,and what the farm in our
backyard here, and I call it afarm, it's a garden our backyard
in Las Vegas. It's allowed me toget back in touch with my
ability to grow things, andactually, to create synergy
between my ability to grow mycompany and my ability to grow a
(20:49):
natural thing in the backyard.And that is a gift from my
ancestors. And so I say often,Vermont has given me the chance
to one own land, which myancestors were not always able
to do, and two to tend to it andto learn who we have become
through that physical exercise,as opposed to leaving behind of
the material.
Gary Michels (21:09):
So you've got a podcast.
Shawna Wells (21:11):
We do.
Gary Michels (21:12):
Tell me a little bit about your podcast.
Shawna Wells (21:14):
Yeah. So, you know, I think like you having
listened to your podcast, likewe wanted to answer the question
for folks, what is a legacy?What does that mean? This word
can seem so intimidating, andhow can we approach our lives
through it. And I decided,through our work with leaders
that it just needed its owndefinition, but it needed to be
(21:34):
most profoundly defined by theleaders who are experiencing the
impact of living with a legacymindset. So on our podcast, we
interview leaders who havereally started to embody this
idea of legacy, and they talkabout what's hard about it and
what's good about it, and whatthey've discovered along the
way. And I like to say it's avery candid podcast. I know most
(21:57):
of the guests, so we talk veryintimately about their journey,
so you can hear from them.Here's what it's been like to
come in into contact with thisword, and then at the end, we
ask every guest, what's a lyricthat would embody your legacy?
Because I am a music nerd,legacy is often left in music,
and we can hear the legacy ofthe instrument, or the legacy of
(22:20):
the singer, of the designer, ofwhat we hear with our own ears
through music and so often. AndI'm going to ask you in a
second, Gary, what's your song?
Gary Michels (22:29):
I'm already thinking about it right now.
Shawna Wells (22:32):
The legacy of music is so profound that it can
take us. We're walking throughthe store and we hear a song,
and it takes us right back toour 12 year old self, or right
back to our grandmother'skitchen and our right back to a
best friend telling ussomething. And I there is
nothing like that in the world.Music is such a profound gift
that that we've been given as ashuman people. So do you have
(22:52):
a...
Gary Michels (22:53):
I do. Start Me Up by Rolling Stones, for sure.
That's probably my lyric,because I feel like every day is
a new day. Let's get it going soI can be my best. That's
probably, I mean, there's somany others. I can sit with
music for hours. What's yours?
Shawna Wells (23:06):
You know? So today in particular, so I think we're
sitting in a paradoxical moment,and we've got a lot a lot of
people are breathing easy. A lotof people are holding their
breath. A lot of people are, youknow, there's a lot of people
experiencing different realitiesright now. So for me, today,
it's a change is going to comeby. Sam Cook, it's the line a
change is going to come. And Isay that because, for better or
(23:30):
for worse, change is comingalways beyond like today feels
poignant for some folks, butyesterday could have felt
poignant for some folks. And theday before and the day before,
change is always coming. And Ithink we can actually find real
power in embracing that changeis part of our lives, and that
we get to decide how we respondto it, and that is part of a
(23:52):
life well lived, is to figureout, how do I how do I align
myself in moments of change thatfeel rather disruptive to some
and change is different foreveryone.
Gary Michels (24:02):
The last question I have for you, if someone wants
to get in touch with you to hearmore about your services and
what you do, how would theyreach you?
Shawna Wells (24:10):
Yes, you can find me. You can always find me on
LinkedIn. So my name is ShawnaWells. The second place you can
find us is on our website. 7Gen,the number seven. Gen,
legacy.com and you can findeverything we do there. So
that's the first place to stop.And I would say, sign up for our
newsletter. We do a lot ofconversations with leaders. We
give tips and advice. We shareour podcast drops. Everything
(24:33):
you need to know about ushappens through our newsletter.
And so come there.
Gary Michels (24:38):
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Shawna, this
has been such a pleasure. I knowour listeners got a lot of it. I
got a lot of it. I've takennotes here, and this is, I love
talking about this kind of stuff.
Shawna Wells (24:48):
Thank you so much for asking us to be on it and
for the conversation, it wasreally beautiful.
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