June 4, 2025 • 27 mins
Hospice Medical Director and author Jordan Grumet shares the profound loss that change the trajectory of his life, addresses common misconceptions about hospice care, defines the “purpose crisis”, "purpose anxiety", and the "purpose paradox", explains the distinction between meaning and purpose and the connection between purpose and legacy, and reveals the lessons that the living can take from the dying.
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Gary Michels (00:00):
Welcome to Let's Talk Legacy. I'm your host, Gary
(00:02):
Michels, and today we haveJordan Grumet. Jordan Grumet is
a hospice medical director andthe author of The Purpose Code,
How to Unlock Meaning, MaximizeHappiness and Leave a Lasting
Legacy. Welcome to the show.
Jordan Grumet (00:17):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for
the conversation.
Gary Michels (00:20):
Absolutely so your life took an unexpected turn
after a profound personal lossreshaped your trajectory and led
you towards your medical career.Could you share a little bit
about your story with us?
Jordan Grumet (00:32):
Certainly. I was seven years old when my dad
died. He died suddenly. He was40 at the time. He was rounding
at the hospital. He was anoncologist or cancer doctor, and
he got a severe headache, had ablood vessel burst in his brain,
and died pretty quicklythereafter. And being seven
years old, I saw the worldthrough a very selfish lens. I
figured if he died, it must besomething I did wrong or I
(00:54):
wasn't good enough, and so Isingle handedly decided that I
could solve this tragic loss byjust becoming a doctor like he
did, and that became my soleversion of purpose, a big,
audacious version of purpose inwhich not only did I save the
world by helping people, but Icould somehow undo this bad
thing that happened to me when Iwas a kid. So originally, I
(01:16):
found a lot of fulfillment init. This idea that I had
something that I was supposed todo really engaged me, and so I
worked really hard. I had alearning disability when I was a
kid, and I got over that, and Iwent to high school and college,
and I was the kid who was alwaysstudying while everyone else was
out having fun. It was my soleversion of purpose and identity
for many years, and it did serveme until I started practicing
(01:36):
medicine and realized there wasa lot I didn't like about it. I
didn't like the hours, I didn'tlike the paperwork. I so often
felt like I wasn't helpingpeople as much as I wanted to.
And at some point, I had thatepiphany that no matter how good
a doctor I was, A, I wasn'tgoing to save everyone, and B, I
wasn't going to undo thetragedy. My dad wasn't back. I
had become a doctor. I had donethis big, audacious thing. I was
(01:58):
supposed to be feeling good, andI realized that I kind of CO
opted his version of purpose,because I thought it would save
everything and fix everything,but I wasn't very connected to
the work like I found a bunch ofhis notebooks one day as an
adult, we were cleaning out mymom's addict and I was looking
at his notebooks and seeing theloving notes he had taken on all
(02:19):
the biological pathways, And Icould just tell by these notes
how much he loved it, and I hadnone of that like I didn't enjoy
it nearly as much. It didn'tlight me up. And so it was
really epiphany to realize thateven though it felt like a real
sense of purpose and did fill meup for some point, when I
actually got there, it didn't.
Gary Michels (02:37):
Wow. So you decided to make a jump right
from internal medicine tohospice. Where did that come
from?
Jordan Grumet (02:45):
So I got so burned out in medicine, I
started looking for ways out.But what the heck am I going to
do with myself? I had no idea.So instead of throwing the baby
out with the bath water, I juststarted getting rid of things I
didn't like in my medicalpractice. I didn't like owning
my own practice, so I got rid ofthat. I didn't like working in
nursing homes, so I got rid ofthat. What of that. When I got
rid of everything that I didn'tlike, I was left with one thing
(03:06):
I loved, which was doing hospicework. About five years into my
career, I was taking care of adying patient. We called
hospice. They came saw the dyingpatient. I had kind of done
everything they needed to havedone before they even got there.
So they looked at me and theysaid, you're really good at
this. Why don't you come workfor us? So I started almost what
I call a medical side hustle,where I worked very part time
(03:26):
for a hospice as a medicaldirector. I got a little stipend
for doing it, and so I hadalready incorporated that into
my work life. And as I startedsubtracting out all I didn't
like it was the one thing Irealized I would do, even if
someone wasn't paying me for it.And that's how I kind of knew
that there was this kernel ofpurpose in that, and that even
if I decided I didn't want to bea doctor anymore, I still wanted
to do that.
Gary Michels (03:46):
You know, often when you talk about hospice,
there's misconceptions peoplehave, and they don't really
know. So what are some commonmisconceptions about hospice
care?
Jordan Grumet (03:57):
Well, the first thing I always get is, wow, you
work in hospice that must behard or that must be depressing.
And it's funny because I say theexact opposite. There were so
many things that were hard anddepressing about doing general
internal medicine. Beingpeople's intern is taking care
of people in the hospital. Iactually find hospice really
uplifting, because all the otherdoctors have told the poor
patient, there's nothing you cando. We're done. And then I get
(04:19):
to walk in and say, whoa, wait,there's tons of things we can
do. We can help control yoursymptoms. We can help you die in
the place you want to die. Wecan help you see each day as a
gift up into the moment you die.And so that feels very
empowering. So the mistake mostpeople think is, when you're
given a terminal diagnosis, thatlife ends. But what I've found
is that even the dying wake upevery morning with a plan for
(04:42):
the day and with the right typeof care and hospice care and
those kind of things, we canhelp you experience those kind
of things you want toexperience. You can hopefully
see some of those people youwant to see. You can talk to
those other people. You can dosome things that are really
nurturing and growth oriented,even in your last days. And so.
Think that's where the mistakemost people make is they think
(05:02):
the moment you get thediagnosis, life ends. And I say,
No, no, you're kind of livinguntil the moment you die. And so
we try to make that life as goodas possible for however much
time you have left.
Gary Michels (05:13):
So working in hospice care, you spend a lot of
time with people who were reallyreflecting on things about what
their mission and purpose hasbeen in life. You argue America
is currently undergoing apurpose crisis. Can you explain?
Jordan Grumet (05:27):
Certainly. And part of the reason is, I think
we get purpose wrong. So let'stalk about why we get purpose
wrong. I usually talk aboutpurpose being two different
things, and one of them isassociated with health,
happiness and longevity. That'swhat I call little P purpose.
I'll explain the difference in amoment. And the other is what I
call big P purpose, which is bigaudacious purpose, and it
probably is more associated withanxiety. In fact, studies show
(05:49):
that up to 91% of people at somepoint in their life have what's
called purpose anxiety. They getstressed and anxious and
frustrated at this idea of,quote, unquote, finding their
purpose so big P purpose isaudacious. It's goal oriented,
and it's usually really hard toachieve, because in America, we
say, if you think it, you can doit. So think about becoming a
(06:09):
billionaire, having a sevenfigure business, traveling to
all sorts of great countries,wearing the nice clothes. All
those kind of things are kind ofbig P purpose. Little P purpose,
on the other hand, isn't goaloriented. It's process oriented.
So it's very abundant. It's likedoing what lights you up. And so
if you think about it, there area million things you could do
that you really love to do, andthere's no way to fail. You
(06:30):
start doing something you don'tlike doing it, just do something
else. So why are we having apurpose crisis in America?
Because every influence outthere is trying to tell us to
grasp on to big purpose. What doI mean by that? Well, if you go
onto Tiktok or Instagram, whatyou're seeing is people who are,
you know, billionaires andtraveling to every country and
(06:52):
wearing the nice clothes andhaving the six pack abs, or if
you look at things liketelevision and marketing,
they're showing us images ofwhat the good life looks like,
and often those things arereally hard to achieve. Like,
not everyone can have six packabs, not everyone can become a
billionaire. In fact, mostpeople can't. In fact, you have
to be the right person at theright time, saying the right
things, with the right geneticsand a bunch of luck to get
(07:13):
there. And so what happens tomost people who go after big P
purpose? They fail. And so theworld is trying to get us to co
opt that version of purpose.Why? Because influencers want to
sell things, and they want youto follow them. Advertisers want
you to buy their products. So ifthey can just sell you this big,
audacious version of purpose,they can get you to buy their
(07:34):
thing. But that version ofpurpose is making us feel
horrible, and that's why there'sa crisis, because everybody is
telling us what to be, andusually those things aren't
particularly healthy for us, andthey don't particularly make us
happy. Big P purpose is alwaysbad because it's goal oriented.
And so here's the problem withbig P purpose, we make these
(07:54):
huge, big, audacious goals, andoften it causes us to do things
we don't enjoy the process ofdoing. Let me talk about
podcasting. I love podcasting.I'm a podcaster. When I podcast,
it is little P purpose for me,which means I love doing it. I
get in front of the mic and Iinterview someone, and that hour
is the best time of my life,even if no one ever hears that
episode. It was so worth itbecause I enjoyed the process of
(08:16):
doing it. But I could decidethat I want a million downloads
a month, and that could be mybig audacious goal. But here's
the problem, in order to getthere, I'm going to have to do
some work, and part of that workis going to be things I really
hate doing, like I don't likemaking Tiktok reels, I don't
like being on Instagram, but ifI really want to get those
million views, I'm going to haveto do that. So what I'm going to
(08:39):
do is I'm going to spend all mytime doing things I don't like
85 90% of my time so that I canreach that goal, which I'm happy
with for about 5% of the time.And then I habituate back to my
regular level of happiness. Andthen I gotta double down and go
after 2 million and then I'mback to doing things I don't
like doing. You can have big,audacious goals, but when you
(08:59):
pursue little P purpose, you aregoal agnostic. What does that
mean? So I can love podcasting,and I can decide that a million
downloads a month is my big,audacious goal, but it's still
little P purpose, because guesswhat? If I get there, great. If
I don't get there, great,because I'm still doing
something I love doing. It onlybecomes big P purpose when you
(09:20):
start changing what you're doingto things you don't enjoy the
process of doing, and that'swhere we go wrong.
Gary Michels (09:26):
But is there a middle ground a little bit?
Jordan Grumet (09:28):
Here's where I run into problems. So I am a
doctor, right? Which means I'vebeen surrounded by achievement
junkies my whole life. And so alot of people make that
argument. It's like, well, Ilike achieving. I want to change
the world. What's wrong with alittle big, audacious purpose,
like, I want to be driven to dothese big, awesome things. I
mean, that's how we kill it,right? You do all these big
(09:49):
dozen things. Here's what Igenerally found, and it actually
has to do with the differencebetween meaning and purpose. And
so I think happiness is meaningand purpose. You need both. A
lot of people look at me and go,well. Are crazy. Meaning and
purpose are the same thing.Here's where I think they're
different and why it'simportant. Meaning is about our
past and it's all about ourthoughts. It's the stories we
(10:10):
tell ourselves about ourselves,and it's generally a journey to
enough. What I mean is happypeople tend to tell themselves
heroic stories about their past.They see the past, they realize
there was hardship and traumaand difficulty, but they were
able to get through it, andthat's why they are where they
are today. And then they look atthe present future and say,
Well, I was able to get throughin the past, so I'm going to do
(10:30):
well in the present future. Theyfeel like they're enough on the
inside, and so they'll continueto be enough. Unhappy. People
tend to tell themselves a victimstory about the past. The story
they tell about their past is, Ihad these traumas, I had these
problems, and I was thwarted,and so when you get to the
present, they still feelthwarted, and they feel they'll
be thwarted in the present andfuture. So they never feel like
(10:51):
they made it to enough. Purposeis very different from meaning.
It's not about your thoughts andit's not about your past. It's
about your present and future,and it's all about actions. It's
doing the things that light usup. Here's where people go
wrong. They go wrong when theydon't have a good sense of
meaning and they don't feelenough. And so instead of going
back and dealing with that notfeeling enough, they try to
(11:13):
purpose their way to enough, orpurpose their way to happiness.
How do they do that? They set abunch of big, audacious goals,
and they convince themselves, ifthey just reach those goals,
they're going to be happy. Icall this the achievement
treadmill. It's those people whokeep on running on the
treadmill, getting achievementafter achievement, and they
still think they're going tomake them happy, and they don't,
and they have to go to the nextbig, audacious goal to get
there. Steve Jobs and Elon Musk.These are two people who've
(11:37):
achieved almost everything.They've made almost all the
money there is to make in theworld, and both of them have
looked mostly miserable most oftheir lives. The reason is, I
believe, is they have an issueof meaning. Steve Jobs was
adopted, and it's been welldocumented that he never came to
terms with this idea, that henever felt he was enough through
his adoption issues, and he kepton trying to prove himself
through creating all thisamazing stuff. Elon Musk
(11:59):
suffered issues with his dad andgot teased as a kid. I think a
lot of this is a meaningproblem. So what's wrong with
the big, audacious goals andpushing ourselves to achieve
more? I think we're trying toprove our enoughness, and you
could be as successful as ElonMusk and Steve Jobs, and it
still won't make you actuallyhappy. It'll just make you
double down and want to reachthe next thing. And so that's my
(12:22):
problem, being two achievementand big P purpose oriented is a
lot of people are trying toprove their enoughness with it,
and it just doesn't work. Theway you prove you're enough is
to go back and deal withmeaning, not necessarily. Can't
purpose your way there. And so Ithink you set yourself up to be
a little bit unhappy as long asyou're enjoying what you're
doing, that's fine.
Gary Michels (12:42):
I know that purpose is a big part of
hospice. So you say that up to91% of us are impacted by
purpose anxiety. Where did thatnumber come from, and what led
to 91%?
Jordan Grumet (12:55):
So Larissa Rainey is a researcher who basically
did one of the Sentinel paperson purpose anxiety. Back, I
think it was in 2012 or maybe2014 and so she was the one who
conducted the research thatshowed that up to 91% of people
(13:16):
at some point in their life havehad purpose anxiety. So why
purpose anxiety? Because mostpeople are trying to find their
purpose, and you don't reallyfind purpose. You build it, but
you do have to decide what tobuild purpose around. And most
(13:39):
of us, because of social media,because of society, we're trying
to build purpose around thesereally big, goal oriented,
difficult things to pursue. Andso we feel lots of anxiety,
because a lot of times we setthe goal so high we can't reach
(14:02):
it, and a lot of times we findourselves doing things we don't
Gary Michels (14:07):
What is the purpose paradox?
like in service of these goalsthat we either do or don't meet,
Jordan Grumet (14:09):
Well, that's the paradox. So if you look at the
data, pursuing a version ofpurpose in life, if you look at
but you kind of lost already ifyou don't enjoy what you're
all the studies, is associatedwith health, happiness and
longevity, I mean, you do somuch better if you have a sense
doing in service of that goal,at least on a regular basis. And
of purpose in your life. Andthere are tons of studies that
show this, but then there areother other studies that show
so that's why there's so muchpurpose anxiety, is because a
that up to 91% of people havepurpose anxieties. The question
is, how can it be like both themost nourishing thing that gives
(14:31):
lot of times, really, all theseforces are pushing us to do
us the health, happiness andlongevity, but also the most
frustrating thing that gives usall the anxiety? What I believe
stuff that probably doesn'tlight us up, that probably isn't
is we get purpose wrong. Wethink it's only one thing, but
it's actually two things, andone of those things is healthy
unique to us, but it's someversion of either what society
for you, and one of them isn't.That's that differentiation.
Little P purpose is probablywhat's associated with all those
is trying to tell us or whatsociety is trying to sell us.
good things, and big P purposeis probably what's more
(14:51):
associated with the anxiety and stress.
Gary Michels (14:53):
I got it. Now, how are purpose and legacy
connected? Because I know whenyou're with these people in
hospice, I'm sure things comeup, what they want to leave
behind, not just money wise, butmemories and thoughts and
relationships. How are theyconnected?
Jordan Grumet (15:11):
Well, here's the thing, most people think the way
to have impact in legacy is bigP big audacious purposes, like
I'm going to, you know, solvecancer, or I'm going to travel
to Mars, or I'm going to becomea president, and those are the
things that are going to givethem this lasting impact and
legacy. I actually argue theexact opposite. It's little
people purpose doing things thatlight us up, that actually
(15:31):
connect us to other people. I'mnot worried about a financial
legacy. That's just a financialplan. I'm looking at leaving a
part of yourself that existseven after you've left this
world. So I always give theexample, actually, of my
maternal grandfather. Mymaternal grandfather was born
and lived throughout the mid1900s he, in fact, died in the
1960s so I was born in 1973 Inever even met him, but he had a
(15:54):
version of purpose that was verymuch little P purpose. He loved
math, not because he could makea living at it, not because it
was going to change the world.He loved it, because he just
loved it. So back in the 1950swhen my mom was a little girl,
she'd sit on his lab and hewould show her all his
spreadsheets where he waswriting in all the numbers in
the boxes, and he was lit up andexcited about this. So my mom
did what kids do is she tried onthat identity. She's like, Well,
(16:15):
my dad loves this. Maybe thisfits me. She found it did, and
she eventually became a CPA justlike him. Here's where the magic
comes in. When I was a littlekid, I had a learning disability
and couldn't read. And in fact,while all my friends were on
their basic readers, I waspretty much coloring with a
crayon in a drawing book.Basically, I wasn't making any
headway. I would have thought Iwas lost, except I was really
good at math. In fact, I was atthe top of my class at math,
(16:37):
because, like my mother, I hadtaken on some of that identity
because I saw that she loved it.It was her purpose. I thought
this is something I could dotoo. I eventually got over my
learning disability. I became adoctor, and in my early days as
a doctor, I had a patient whocame into the hospital, a young
guy who kept on getting admittedalmost near death with
dehydration. Because I lovedmath, I happened to notice a
(16:59):
connection between two of hislab results, and we diagnosed
him with a rare disease. Thatrare disease we treated with a
simple medicine. And guess whathappened? He was a pastor at a
church, and he took in homelesskids and would give them
shelter, connect them to socialservices, all those kind of
things. So let's think aboutthis, my maternal grandfather,
who died in the 1960s because ofhis love of math, like a pebble
(17:23):
dropped in the ocean, itdisplaced a touch of water, and
that water formed waves thatadded to other waves at times to
become big and mighty and gotsmaller at other times and
dissipated. But over 60 years,it's still landing on beaches
hundreds of miles away. His lifehad impact. It had legacy. Part
of him still exists because ofwhat he loved, and I think
(17:46):
that's a lot more attainable forpeople than to worry about all
these big, audacious thingsthey're gonna do, which they may
or may not succeed at.
Gary Michels (17:53):
What does legacy mean to you in general?
Jordan Grumet (17:56):
I think it's the piece of you that you leave
behind once you're gone, and sothere's a touch of that that's
financial, right? You leavemoney, and that helps your kids
and grandkids, etc. But a lot ofit are those things you loved
that you modeled for your familyand touched their lives, and you
gave them permission to maybeseek out the same things, maybe
to do their own things. But wesee this all the time, like in a
(18:18):
grandchild or a greatgrandchild, someone who has a
love of music that their greatgrandparent had, someone who
walks or has the mannerisms thattheir grandfather had. These are
parts of our legacy. It's thepart of us that we pass along.
And the beautiful thing aboutthat is your money will
disappear, and even thefantastic achievements you did
will probably disappear, butwon't. What won't disappear
(18:40):
those pieces of yourself thatyou pass on. And so I think
that's legacy.
Gary Michels (18:44):
Now you've spoken with countless patients on their
deathbeds about their lives,their regrets, and what they
hope their legacy will be. Arethere any stories in particular
that you felt were impactful toyou or might be impactful to our
listeners that you'd like toshare?
Jordan Grumet (19:01):
There are so many, it's hard to separate. And
what binds them all is peoplewho either did the things that
were important to them, so theykind of died peacefully, or the
people who never addressed thosethings. And so I had to
reconcile that at the end oflife. And so one story I
actually tell about so I justwrote a book called The purpose
code. It's all about purpose.But in my first book taking
(19:23):
stock, I actually tell a storywhich still is very profound to
me today. I took care of apatient who back when he was in
his 20s, he had this dream, andthe dream was to hike Mount
Everest. He wanted to climbMount Everest, and he was in the
middle of a corporate career,and he was doing really, really
(19:43):
well, and he was moving up. Andhe decided in his early 20s to
take a year off, which everyonetold him he shouldn't do, to
train and then to go climb MountEverest. And so he did that. He
trained. He went to climb MountEverest. They made it past base
camp. The weather change. First.He eventually had to come back
down. They never made it to thetop. He ran out of time. He went
(20:04):
back to working. I met him inhis 40s when he was dying of
leukemia, and all he wanted totalk about was his time on Mount
Everest. All he wanted to talkabout was what it felt like to
be out there trying to climbthis fantastic mountain. He
didn't complain that he failed,right? He ultimately didn't make
it. But what he really regaledus with was this idea that he
(20:27):
had the courage to do this thingthat was deeply important to him
and that really had an impact onme. Doesn't matter if you
succeed or fail, but one day,you're going to die and you're
going to look back and say, didI do those things that were
deeply important to me, or did Iput them off? So he failed the
big, audacious goal of gettingto the top, but he loved the
process, and that's all thatmattered, right, right? And so
(20:50):
he could have, back in his 20s,he could have said, You know
what, everyone's right, I shouldstick to my career. I'm gonna
keep moving up. I'll get to itlater. Well, the poor guy died
in his 40s. There never may havebeen a later.
Gary Michels (21:01):
What is a hospice life review and how can it help
anyone at any age live a morepurposeful life?
Jordan Grumet (21:10):
So, a hospice life review is something we do
with patients after they come onhospice, and we get them
comfortable, and we make surethey're dying the place they
want to, whether that's anursing home or the hospital at
home. A lot of times a doctor orsocial worker or nurse or a
chaplain will do somethingcalled a life review. It's a
series of structured questionswhere we ask them about their
lives, what were the mostimportant moments, what were
(21:31):
their biggest successes, whatwere their biggest failures? And
the one I specifically want tofocus on is, what are their
regrets? And so this is anattempt to help reconcile their
life, even though they don'thave the agency to change things
anymore, right? They're notgoing to go back and climb Mount
Everest if they didn't do it,they didn't do it. But here's
where the magic comes in. Whatif we take that knowledge and
(21:53):
bring it to young people andother people who aren't dying?
What if we ask them that bigquestion, if you found out you
were going to die next week,what would you regret that you
never had the energy, courage ortime to do? And once you figure
out what those regrets are,let's turn those into what I
call purpose anchors. Those areinklings of something that could
be purposeful. And then let'sbuild a life of purpose around
(22:14):
them. Let me give you a greatexample. I came to the
conclusion about 10 years agothat if I didn't traditionally
publish a book and I died, Iwould always regret that I never
tried. And so for me, that wassomething I could turn from a
regret into a purpose anchor.And so I started building a life
of purpose around that, andeventually wrote my first book,
taking stock. And so I thinkthis idea of using regrets to
(22:36):
our benefit is something that weall should be doing. Take a
lesson from the dying. Let'sstart thinking about it a lot
earlier, though.
Gary Michels (22:43):
Yeah, I love that. What are a few tactical tips for
setting up a lasting, positivelegacy?
Jordan Grumet (22:51):
The tips are to start thinking about purpose
now. Little P purpose, what youlike the process of doing, and
start building a life around it.And so what I always get all the
time, as people say to me, Well,that's easy, you know, just find
your purpose. And they say, butI don't know how to find my
purpose. I've been tryingforever. And so what I always
say is, you don't find yourpurpose. You build it. But it is
true, you need these Inklings,these beckonings, these purpose
(23:12):
anchors, to start building alife of purpose around. So it is
true, there's some ways to startthinking about purpose anchors.
We just talked about one, whichis the life review and the
regret question, that's a greatway to start think about what
you'd regret if you were dying.And let's turn that into a
purpose anchor, another easyway. I won't go through all of
them, but another easy way tostart thinking about purpose
anchors. Think about your joysof childhood like, what did you
(23:34):
love when you were a kid? A lotof times, as we get older, we
start focusing on school and wedrop all those things that feel
purposeful to us. So what werethe posters? What were the
drawings? What were the metalsyou had in your childhood room?
Could those be some purposeanchors last but not least, and
I described this with my career.If you subtracted everything you
didn't like about your career,what would be left when I
subtracted everything I didn'tlike about being a doctor, I
(23:54):
found a purpose anchor, whichwas hospice work. And so those
are some real constructive waysto start building purpose
anchors so that you can thenstart creating the life you want
to live full of purpose.
Gary Michels (24:04):
Couple of last questions for you; what legacy
do you hope to leave behind foryour work and the patients that
you serve?
Jordan Grumet (24:11):
I'll tell you that that's an interesting
question, because I don't reallyplan to leave a legacy in the
people I serve. In fact, I don'teven want them to know my name.
I want to be behind the scenes,helping the nurses and chaplains
and so social workers take careof them. So my job as a hospice
doctor is actually really easy.It's the nurses, the chaplains,
the social workers and thecertified nursing assistants who
are doing all the difficult,hands on care. So the legacy
(24:34):
through hospice is to prettymuch say, Look, everyone asks
me, how do I have a good death?I mean, I get that all the time,
especially young people, likeyou're a hospice doctor, you
know, how do I assure that Ihave a good death? And I always
tell people, you tend to die theway you live. And so if you
lived a good, happy life, you'regonna have a good, happy death.
And if you lived an anxietyfilled unhappy life, you're
probably gonna have an unhappydeath. So the way to have a good
(24:57):
death is to have a good life.And so the way to have. A good
life is to start thinking aboutthese really important things
now, and that gets back topurpose. The legacy for the kids
is much easier, right? So for mykids, my legacy is to model a
deeply engaged adult who'spursuing really purposeful
activities, because I want themto have that model so they can
(25:18):
go and pursue their ownpurposeful, light filled life.
And so that's really the legacyI want for them. Is I want them
to see me so deeply engaged inmy life that they build a life
exactly the same for themselves,so they feel all that kind of
same joy and fulfillment thatI've spent, you know, a good 50
years trying to get to.
Gary Michels (25:37):
Awesome. I love it. So if someone wanted to get
in touch with you, get yourbook, have you help them in any
part of their lives, how wouldthey reach you?
Jordan Grumet (25:45):
So the best way is to go to JordanGrumet.com
that's J O R, D, A N, G, R, U,m, e, t.com, there you can see
links to both of my books TakingStock and The Purpose Code, as
well as all the places I createcontent. The two main ones right
now are the earned and investpodcast as well as the purpose
code, sub stack. You can get allof that at JordanGrumet.com.
Gary Michels (26:05):
Awesome. Well, I thank you for spending time with
us today. It was a greatdiscussion, and it got me
thinking. Thank you so much.
Jordan Grumet (26:13):
Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast.
Welcome to Let's Talk Legacy. I'm your host, Gary
(00:02):
Michels, and today we haveJordan Grumet. Jordan Grumet is
a hospice medical director andthe author of The Purpose Code,
How to Unlock Meaning, MaximizeHappiness and Leave a Lasting
Legacy. Welcome to the show.
Jordan Grumet (00:17):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for
the conversation.
Gary Michels (00:20):
Absolutely so your life took an unexpected turn
after a profound personal lossreshaped your trajectory and led
you towards your medical career.Could you share a little bit
about your story with us?
Jordan Grumet (00:32):
Certainly. I was seven years old when my dad
died. He died suddenly. He was40 at the time. He was rounding
at the hospital. He was anoncologist or cancer doctor, and
he got a severe headache, had ablood vessel burst in his brain,
and died pretty quicklythereafter. And being seven
years old, I saw the worldthrough a very selfish lens. I
figured if he died, it must besomething I did wrong or I
(00:54):
wasn't good enough, and so Isingle handedly decided that I
could solve this tragic loss byjust becoming a doctor like he
did, and that became my soleversion of purpose, a big,
audacious version of purpose inwhich not only did I save the
world by helping people, but Icould somehow undo this bad
thing that happened to me when Iwas a kid. So originally, I
(01:16):
found a lot of fulfillment init. This idea that I had
something that I was supposed todo really engaged me, and so I
worked really hard. I had alearning disability when I was a
kid, and I got over that, and Iwent to high school and college,
and I was the kid who was alwaysstudying while everyone else was
out having fun. It was my soleversion of purpose and identity
for many years, and it did serveme until I started practicing
(01:36):
medicine and realized there wasa lot I didn't like about it. I
didn't like the hours, I didn'tlike the paperwork. I so often
felt like I wasn't helpingpeople as much as I wanted to.
And at some point, I had thatepiphany that no matter how good
a doctor I was, A, I wasn'tgoing to save everyone, and B, I
wasn't going to undo thetragedy. My dad wasn't back. I
had become a doctor. I had donethis big, audacious thing. I was
(01:58):
supposed to be feeling good, andI realized that I kind of CO
opted his version of purpose,because I thought it would save
everything and fix everything,but I wasn't very connected to
the work like I found a bunch ofhis notebooks one day as an
adult, we were cleaning out mymom's addict and I was looking
at his notebooks and seeing theloving notes he had taken on all
(02:19):
the biological pathways, And Icould just tell by these notes
how much he loved it, and I hadnone of that like I didn't enjoy
it nearly as much. It didn'tlight me up. And so it was
really epiphany to realize thateven though it felt like a real
sense of purpose and did fill meup for some point, when I
actually got there, it didn't.
Gary Michels (02:37):
Wow. So you decided to make a jump right
from internal medicine tohospice. Where did that come
from?
Jordan Grumet (02:45):
So I got so burned out in medicine, I
started looking for ways out.But what the heck am I going to
do with myself? I had no idea.So instead of throwing the baby
out with the bath water, I juststarted getting rid of things I
didn't like in my medicalpractice. I didn't like owning
my own practice, so I got rid ofthat. I didn't like working in
nursing homes, so I got rid ofthat. What of that. When I got
rid of everything that I didn'tlike, I was left with one thing
(03:06):
I loved, which was doing hospicework. About five years into my
career, I was taking care of adying patient. We called
hospice. They came saw the dyingpatient. I had kind of done
everything they needed to havedone before they even got there.
So they looked at me and theysaid, you're really good at
this. Why don't you come workfor us? So I started almost what
I call a medical side hustle,where I worked very part time
(03:26):
for a hospice as a medicaldirector. I got a little stipend
for doing it, and so I hadalready incorporated that into
my work life. And as I startedsubtracting out all I didn't
like it was the one thing Irealized I would do, even if
someone wasn't paying me for it.And that's how I kind of knew
that there was this kernel ofpurpose in that, and that even
if I decided I didn't want to bea doctor anymore, I still wanted
to do that.
Gary Michels (03:46):
You know, often when you talk about hospice,
there's misconceptions peoplehave, and they don't really
know. So what are some commonmisconceptions about hospice
care?
Jordan Grumet (03:57):
Well, the first thing I always get is, wow, you
work in hospice that must behard or that must be depressing.
And it's funny because I say theexact opposite. There were so
many things that were hard anddepressing about doing general
internal medicine. Beingpeople's intern is taking care
of people in the hospital. Iactually find hospice really
uplifting, because all the otherdoctors have told the poor
patient, there's nothing you cando. We're done. And then I get
(04:19):
to walk in and say, whoa, wait,there's tons of things we can
do. We can help control yoursymptoms. We can help you die in
the place you want to die. Wecan help you see each day as a
gift up into the moment you die.And so that feels very
empowering. So the mistake mostpeople think is, when you're
given a terminal diagnosis, thatlife ends. But what I've found
is that even the dying wake upevery morning with a plan for
(04:42):
the day and with the right typeof care and hospice care and
those kind of things, we canhelp you experience those kind
of things you want toexperience. You can hopefully
see some of those people youwant to see. You can talk to
those other people. You can dosome things that are really
nurturing and growth oriented,even in your last days. And so.
Think that's where the mistakemost people make is they think
(05:02):
the moment you get thediagnosis, life ends. And I say,
No, no, you're kind of livinguntil the moment you die. And so
we try to make that life as goodas possible for however much
time you have left.
Gary Michels (05:13):
So working in hospice care, you spend a lot of
time with people who were reallyreflecting on things about what
their mission and purpose hasbeen in life. You argue America
is currently undergoing apurpose crisis. Can you explain?
Jordan Grumet (05:27):
Certainly. And part of the reason is, I think
we get purpose wrong. So let'stalk about why we get purpose
wrong. I usually talk aboutpurpose being two different
things, and one of them isassociated with health,
happiness and longevity. That'swhat I call little P purpose.
I'll explain the difference in amoment. And the other is what I
call big P purpose, which is bigaudacious purpose, and it
probably is more associated withanxiety. In fact, studies show
(05:49):
that up to 91% of people at somepoint in their life have what's
called purpose anxiety. They getstressed and anxious and
frustrated at this idea of,quote, unquote, finding their
purpose so big P purpose isaudacious. It's goal oriented,
and it's usually really hard toachieve, because in America, we
say, if you think it, you can doit. So think about becoming a
(06:09):
billionaire, having a sevenfigure business, traveling to
all sorts of great countries,wearing the nice clothes. All
those kind of things are kind ofbig P purpose. Little P purpose,
on the other hand, isn't goaloriented. It's process oriented.
So it's very abundant. It's likedoing what lights you up. And so
if you think about it, there area million things you could do
that you really love to do, andthere's no way to fail. You
(06:30):
start doing something you don'tlike doing it, just do something
else. So why are we having apurpose crisis in America?
Because every influence outthere is trying to tell us to
grasp on to big purpose. What doI mean by that? Well, if you go
onto Tiktok or Instagram, whatyou're seeing is people who are,
you know, billionaires andtraveling to every country and
(06:52):
wearing the nice clothes andhaving the six pack abs, or if
you look at things liketelevision and marketing,
they're showing us images ofwhat the good life looks like,
and often those things arereally hard to achieve. Like,
not everyone can have six packabs, not everyone can become a
billionaire. In fact, mostpeople can't. In fact, you have
to be the right person at theright time, saying the right
things, with the right geneticsand a bunch of luck to get
(07:13):
there. And so what happens tomost people who go after big P
purpose? They fail. And so theworld is trying to get us to co
opt that version of purpose.Why? Because influencers want to
sell things, and they want youto follow them. Advertisers want
you to buy their products. So ifthey can just sell you this big,
audacious version of purpose,they can get you to buy their
(07:34):
thing. But that version ofpurpose is making us feel
horrible, and that's why there'sa crisis, because everybody is
telling us what to be, andusually those things aren't
particularly healthy for us, andthey don't particularly make us
happy. Big P purpose is alwaysbad because it's goal oriented.
And so here's the problem withbig P purpose, we make these
(07:54):
huge, big, audacious goals, andoften it causes us to do things
we don't enjoy the process ofdoing. Let me talk about
podcasting. I love podcasting.I'm a podcaster. When I podcast,
it is little P purpose for me,which means I love doing it. I
get in front of the mic and Iinterview someone, and that hour
is the best time of my life,even if no one ever hears that
episode. It was so worth itbecause I enjoyed the process of
(08:16):
doing it. But I could decidethat I want a million downloads
a month, and that could be mybig audacious goal. But here's
the problem, in order to getthere, I'm going to have to do
some work, and part of that workis going to be things I really
hate doing, like I don't likemaking Tiktok reels, I don't
like being on Instagram, but ifI really want to get those
million views, I'm going to haveto do that. So what I'm going to
(08:39):
do is I'm going to spend all mytime doing things I don't like
85 90% of my time so that I canreach that goal, which I'm happy
with for about 5% of the time.And then I habituate back to my
regular level of happiness. Andthen I gotta double down and go
after 2 million and then I'mback to doing things I don't
like doing. You can have big,audacious goals, but when you
(08:59):
pursue little P purpose, you aregoal agnostic. What does that
mean? So I can love podcasting,and I can decide that a million
downloads a month is my big,audacious goal, but it's still
little P purpose, because guesswhat? If I get there, great. If
I don't get there, great,because I'm still doing
something I love doing. It onlybecomes big P purpose when you
(09:20):
start changing what you're doingto things you don't enjoy the
process of doing, and that'swhere we go wrong.
Gary Michels (09:26):
But is there a middle ground a little bit?
Jordan Grumet (09:28):
Here's where I run into problems. So I am a
doctor, right? Which means I'vebeen surrounded by achievement
junkies my whole life. And so alot of people make that
argument. It's like, well, Ilike achieving. I want to change
the world. What's wrong with alittle big, audacious purpose,
like, I want to be driven to dothese big, awesome things. I
mean, that's how we kill it,right? You do all these big
(09:49):
dozen things. Here's what Igenerally found, and it actually
has to do with the differencebetween meaning and purpose. And
so I think happiness is meaningand purpose. You need both. A
lot of people look at me and go,well. Are crazy. Meaning and
purpose are the same thing.Here's where I think they're
different and why it'simportant. Meaning is about our
past and it's all about ourthoughts. It's the stories we
(10:10):
tell ourselves about ourselves,and it's generally a journey to
enough. What I mean is happypeople tend to tell themselves
heroic stories about their past.They see the past, they realize
there was hardship and traumaand difficulty, but they were
able to get through it, andthat's why they are where they
are today. And then they look atthe present future and say,
Well, I was able to get throughin the past, so I'm going to do
(10:30):
well in the present future. Theyfeel like they're enough on the
inside, and so they'll continueto be enough. Unhappy. People
tend to tell themselves a victimstory about the past. The story
they tell about their past is, Ihad these traumas, I had these
problems, and I was thwarted,and so when you get to the
present, they still feelthwarted, and they feel they'll
be thwarted in the present andfuture. So they never feel like
(10:51):
they made it to enough. Purposeis very different from meaning.
It's not about your thoughts andit's not about your past. It's
about your present and future,and it's all about actions. It's
doing the things that light usup. Here's where people go
wrong. They go wrong when theydon't have a good sense of
meaning and they don't feelenough. And so instead of going
back and dealing with that notfeeling enough, they try to
(11:13):
purpose their way to enough, orpurpose their way to happiness.
How do they do that? They set abunch of big, audacious goals,
and they convince themselves, ifthey just reach those goals,
they're going to be happy. Icall this the achievement
treadmill. It's those people whokeep on running on the
treadmill, getting achievementafter achievement, and they
still think they're going tomake them happy, and they don't,
and they have to go to the nextbig, audacious goal to get
there. Steve Jobs and Elon Musk.These are two people who've
(11:37):
achieved almost everything.They've made almost all the
money there is to make in theworld, and both of them have
looked mostly miserable most oftheir lives. The reason is, I
believe, is they have an issueof meaning. Steve Jobs was
adopted, and it's been welldocumented that he never came to
terms with this idea, that henever felt he was enough through
his adoption issues, and he kepton trying to prove himself
through creating all thisamazing stuff. Elon Musk
(11:59):
suffered issues with his dad andgot teased as a kid. I think a
lot of this is a meaningproblem. So what's wrong with
the big, audacious goals andpushing ourselves to achieve
more? I think we're trying toprove our enoughness, and you
could be as successful as ElonMusk and Steve Jobs, and it
still won't make you actuallyhappy. It'll just make you
double down and want to reachthe next thing. And so that's my
(12:22):
problem, being two achievementand big P purpose oriented is a
lot of people are trying toprove their enoughness with it,
and it just doesn't work. Theway you prove you're enough is
to go back and deal withmeaning, not necessarily. Can't
purpose your way there. And so Ithink you set yourself up to be
a little bit unhappy as long asyou're enjoying what you're
doing, that's fine.
Gary Michels (12:42):
I know that purpose is a big part of
hospice. So you say that up to91% of us are impacted by
purpose anxiety. Where did thatnumber come from, and what led
to 91%?
Jordan Grumet (12:55):
So Larissa Rainey is a researcher who basically
did one of the Sentinel paperson purpose anxiety. Back, I
think it was in 2012 or maybe2014 and so she was the one who
conducted the research thatshowed that up to 91% of people
(13:16):
at some point in their life havehad purpose anxiety. So why
purpose anxiety? Because mostpeople are trying to find their
purpose, and you don't reallyfind purpose. You build it, but
you do have to decide what tobuild purpose around. And most
(13:39):
of us, because of social media,because of society, we're trying
to build purpose around thesereally big, goal oriented,
difficult things to pursue. Andso we feel lots of anxiety,
because a lot of times we setthe goal so high we can't reach
(14:02):
it, and a lot of times we findourselves doing things we don't
Gary Michels (14:07):
What is the purpose paradox?
like in service of these goalsthat we either do or don't meet,
Jordan Grumet (14:09):
Well, that's the paradox. So if you look at the
data, pursuing a version ofpurpose in life, if you look at
but you kind of lost already ifyou don't enjoy what you're
all the studies, is associatedwith health, happiness and
longevity, I mean, you do somuch better if you have a sense
doing in service of that goal,at least on a regular basis. And
of purpose in your life. Andthere are tons of studies that
show this, but then there areother other studies that show
so that's why there's so muchpurpose anxiety, is because a
that up to 91% of people havepurpose anxieties. The question
is, how can it be like both themost nourishing thing that gives
(14:31):
lot of times, really, all theseforces are pushing us to do
us the health, happiness andlongevity, but also the most
frustrating thing that gives usall the anxiety? What I believe
stuff that probably doesn'tlight us up, that probably isn't
is we get purpose wrong. Wethink it's only one thing, but
it's actually two things, andone of those things is healthy
unique to us, but it's someversion of either what society
for you, and one of them isn't.That's that differentiation.
Little P purpose is probablywhat's associated with all those
is trying to tell us or whatsociety is trying to sell us.
good things, and big P purposeis probably what's more
(14:51):
associated with the anxiety and stress.
Gary Michels (14:53):
I got it. Now, how are purpose and legacy
connected? Because I know whenyou're with these people in
hospice, I'm sure things comeup, what they want to leave
behind, not just money wise, butmemories and thoughts and
relationships. How are theyconnected?
Jordan Grumet (15:11):
Well, here's the thing, most people think the way
to have impact in legacy is bigP big audacious purposes, like
I'm going to, you know, solvecancer, or I'm going to travel
to Mars, or I'm going to becomea president, and those are the
things that are going to givethem this lasting impact and
legacy. I actually argue theexact opposite. It's little
people purpose doing things thatlight us up, that actually
(15:31):
connect us to other people. I'mnot worried about a financial
legacy. That's just a financialplan. I'm looking at leaving a
part of yourself that existseven after you've left this
world. So I always give theexample, actually, of my
maternal grandfather. Mymaternal grandfather was born
and lived throughout the mid1900s he, in fact, died in the
1960s so I was born in 1973 Inever even met him, but he had a
(15:54):
version of purpose that was verymuch little P purpose. He loved
math, not because he could makea living at it, not because it
was going to change the world.He loved it, because he just
loved it. So back in the 1950swhen my mom was a little girl,
she'd sit on his lab and hewould show her all his
spreadsheets where he waswriting in all the numbers in
the boxes, and he was lit up andexcited about this. So my mom
did what kids do is she tried onthat identity. She's like, Well,
(16:15):
my dad loves this. Maybe thisfits me. She found it did, and
she eventually became a CPA justlike him. Here's where the magic
comes in. When I was a littlekid, I had a learning disability
and couldn't read. And in fact,while all my friends were on
their basic readers, I waspretty much coloring with a
crayon in a drawing book.Basically, I wasn't making any
headway. I would have thought Iwas lost, except I was really
good at math. In fact, I was atthe top of my class at math,
(16:37):
because, like my mother, I hadtaken on some of that identity
because I saw that she loved it.It was her purpose. I thought
this is something I could dotoo. I eventually got over my
learning disability. I became adoctor, and in my early days as
a doctor, I had a patient whocame into the hospital, a young
guy who kept on getting admittedalmost near death with
dehydration. Because I lovedmath, I happened to notice a
(16:59):
connection between two of hislab results, and we diagnosed
him with a rare disease. Thatrare disease we treated with a
simple medicine. And guess whathappened? He was a pastor at a
church, and he took in homelesskids and would give them
shelter, connect them to socialservices, all those kind of
things. So let's think aboutthis, my maternal grandfather,
who died in the 1960s because ofhis love of math, like a pebble
(17:23):
dropped in the ocean, itdisplaced a touch of water, and
that water formed waves thatadded to other waves at times to
become big and mighty and gotsmaller at other times and
dissipated. But over 60 years,it's still landing on beaches
hundreds of miles away. His lifehad impact. It had legacy. Part
of him still exists because ofwhat he loved, and I think
(17:46):
that's a lot more attainable forpeople than to worry about all
these big, audacious thingsthey're gonna do, which they may
or may not succeed at.
Gary Michels (17:53):
What does legacy mean to you in general?
Jordan Grumet (17:56):
I think it's the piece of you that you leave
behind once you're gone, and sothere's a touch of that that's
financial, right? You leavemoney, and that helps your kids
and grandkids, etc. But a lot ofit are those things you loved
that you modeled for your familyand touched their lives, and you
gave them permission to maybeseek out the same things, maybe
to do their own things. But wesee this all the time, like in a
(18:18):
grandchild or a greatgrandchild, someone who has a
love of music that their greatgrandparent had, someone who
walks or has the mannerisms thattheir grandfather had. These are
parts of our legacy. It's thepart of us that we pass along.
And the beautiful thing aboutthat is your money will
disappear, and even thefantastic achievements you did
will probably disappear, butwon't. What won't disappear
(18:40):
those pieces of yourself thatyou pass on. And so I think
that's legacy.
Gary Michels (18:44):
Now you've spoken with countless patients on their
deathbeds about their lives,their regrets, and what they
hope their legacy will be. Arethere any stories in particular
that you felt were impactful toyou or might be impactful to our
listeners that you'd like toshare?
Jordan Grumet (19:01):
There are so many, it's hard to separate. And
what binds them all is peoplewho either did the things that
were important to them, so theykind of died peacefully, or the
people who never addressed thosethings. And so I had to
reconcile that at the end oflife. And so one story I
actually tell about so I justwrote a book called The purpose
code. It's all about purpose.But in my first book taking
(19:23):
stock, I actually tell a storywhich still is very profound to
me today. I took care of apatient who back when he was in
his 20s, he had this dream, andthe dream was to hike Mount
Everest. He wanted to climbMount Everest, and he was in the
middle of a corporate career,and he was doing really, really
(19:43):
well, and he was moving up. Andhe decided in his early 20s to
take a year off, which everyonetold him he shouldn't do, to
train and then to go climb MountEverest. And so he did that. He
trained. He went to climb MountEverest. They made it past base
camp. The weather change. First.He eventually had to come back
down. They never made it to thetop. He ran out of time. He went
(20:04):
back to working. I met him inhis 40s when he was dying of
leukemia, and all he wanted totalk about was his time on Mount
Everest. All he wanted to talkabout was what it felt like to
be out there trying to climbthis fantastic mountain. He
didn't complain that he failed,right? He ultimately didn't make
it. But what he really regaledus with was this idea that he
(20:27):
had the courage to do this thingthat was deeply important to him
and that really had an impact onme. Doesn't matter if you
succeed or fail, but one day,you're going to die and you're
going to look back and say, didI do those things that were
deeply important to me, or did Iput them off? So he failed the
big, audacious goal of gettingto the top, but he loved the
process, and that's all thatmattered, right, right? And so
(20:50):
he could have, back in his 20s,he could have said, You know
what, everyone's right, I shouldstick to my career. I'm gonna
keep moving up. I'll get to itlater. Well, the poor guy died
in his 40s. There never may havebeen a later.
Gary Michels (21:01):
What is a hospice life review and how can it help
anyone at any age live a morepurposeful life?
Jordan Grumet (21:10):
So, a hospice life review is something we do
with patients after they come onhospice, and we get them
comfortable, and we make surethey're dying the place they
want to, whether that's anursing home or the hospital at
home. A lot of times a doctor orsocial worker or nurse or a
chaplain will do somethingcalled a life review. It's a
series of structured questionswhere we ask them about their
lives, what were the mostimportant moments, what were
(21:31):
their biggest successes, whatwere their biggest failures? And
the one I specifically want tofocus on is, what are their
regrets? And so this is anattempt to help reconcile their
life, even though they don'thave the agency to change things
anymore, right? They're notgoing to go back and climb Mount
Everest if they didn't do it,they didn't do it. But here's
where the magic comes in. Whatif we take that knowledge and
(21:53):
bring it to young people andother people who aren't dying?
What if we ask them that bigquestion, if you found out you
were going to die next week,what would you regret that you
never had the energy, courage ortime to do? And once you figure
out what those regrets are,let's turn those into what I
call purpose anchors. Those areinklings of something that could
be purposeful. And then let'sbuild a life of purpose around
(22:14):
them. Let me give you a greatexample. I came to the
conclusion about 10 years agothat if I didn't traditionally
publish a book and I died, Iwould always regret that I never
tried. And so for me, that wassomething I could turn from a
regret into a purpose anchor.And so I started building a life
of purpose around that, andeventually wrote my first book,
taking stock. And so I thinkthis idea of using regrets to
(22:36):
our benefit is something that weall should be doing. Take a
lesson from the dying. Let'sstart thinking about it a lot
earlier, though.
Gary Michels (22:43):
Yeah, I love that. What are a few tactical tips for
setting up a lasting, positivelegacy?
Jordan Grumet (22:51):
The tips are to start thinking about purpose
now. Little P purpose, what youlike the process of doing, and
start building a life around it.And so what I always get all the
time, as people say to me, Well,that's easy, you know, just find
your purpose. And they say, butI don't know how to find my
purpose. I've been tryingforever. And so what I always
say is, you don't find yourpurpose. You build it. But it is
true, you need these Inklings,these beckonings, these purpose
(23:12):
anchors, to start building alife of purpose around. So it is
true, there's some ways to startthinking about purpose anchors.
We just talked about one, whichis the life review and the
regret question, that's a greatway to start think about what
you'd regret if you were dying.And let's turn that into a
purpose anchor, another easyway. I won't go through all of
them, but another easy way tostart thinking about purpose
anchors. Think about your joysof childhood like, what did you
(23:34):
love when you were a kid? A lotof times, as we get older, we
start focusing on school and wedrop all those things that feel
purposeful to us. So what werethe posters? What were the
drawings? What were the metalsyou had in your childhood room?
Could those be some purposeanchors last but not least, and
I described this with my career.If you subtracted everything you
didn't like about your career,what would be left when I
subtracted everything I didn'tlike about being a doctor, I
(23:54):
found a purpose anchor, whichwas hospice work. And so those
are some real constructive waysto start building purpose
anchors so that you can thenstart creating the life you want
to live full of purpose.
Gary Michels (24:04):
Couple of last questions for you; what legacy
do you hope to leave behind foryour work and the patients that
you serve?
Jordan Grumet (24:11):
I'll tell you that that's an interesting
question, because I don't reallyplan to leave a legacy in the
people I serve. In fact, I don'teven want them to know my name.
I want to be behind the scenes,helping the nurses and chaplains
and so social workers take careof them. So my job as a hospice
doctor is actually really easy.It's the nurses, the chaplains,
the social workers and thecertified nursing assistants who
are doing all the difficult,hands on care. So the legacy
(24:34):
through hospice is to prettymuch say, Look, everyone asks
me, how do I have a good death?I mean, I get that all the time,
especially young people, likeyou're a hospice doctor, you
know, how do I assure that Ihave a good death? And I always
tell people, you tend to die theway you live. And so if you
lived a good, happy life, you'regonna have a good, happy death.
And if you lived an anxietyfilled unhappy life, you're
probably gonna have an unhappydeath. So the way to have a good
(24:57):
death is to have a good life.And so the way to have. A good
life is to start thinking aboutthese really important things
now, and that gets back topurpose. The legacy for the kids
is much easier, right? So for mykids, my legacy is to model a
deeply engaged adult who'spursuing really purposeful
activities, because I want themto have that model so they can
(25:18):
go and pursue their ownpurposeful, light filled life.
And so that's really the legacyI want for them. Is I want them
to see me so deeply engaged inmy life that they build a life
exactly the same for themselves,so they feel all that kind of
same joy and fulfillment thatI've spent, you know, a good 50
years trying to get to.
Gary Michels (25:37):
Awesome. I love it. So if someone wanted to get
in touch with you, get yourbook, have you help them in any
part of their lives, how wouldthey reach you?
Jordan Grumet (25:45):
So the best way is to go to JordanGrumet.com
that's J O R, D, A N, G, R, U,m, e, t.com, there you can see
links to both of my books TakingStock and The Purpose Code, as
well as all the places I createcontent. The two main ones right
now are the earned and investpodcast as well as the purpose
code, sub stack. You can get allof that at JordanGrumet.com.
Gary Michels (26:05):
Awesome. Well, I thank you for spending time with
us today. It was a greatdiscussion, and it got me
thinking. Thank you so much.
Jordan Grumet (26:13):
Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast.
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