November 14, 2024 • 34 mins
This week on Let’s Talk Love, Robin welcomes Licensed Psychologist, Author, and Founder & CEO of Therapy for Black Girls, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford. Together, they explore the transformative power of sisterhood and community, with Dr. Joy sharing insights into the unique experiences of Black women and the vital role of friendship in mental health and healing. They discuss the loneliness epidemic, the courage in vulnerability, and the strength in asking for help, while examining the challenges of unlearning the need to appear constantly strong and self-reliant. Together they highlight ways to offer help to friends in need and encourage listeners to take risks in forming new friendships. With practical advice, Dr. Joy inspires us to foster deeper connections and build friendships that truly uplift and sustain us.
Takeaways:
- Cultural upbringing influences how women view friendships.
- The loneliness epidemic affects a significant portion of the population.
- Sisterhood allows for visibility and support among women.
- Curiosity in conversations fosters deeper connections.
- Holding space means listening without judgment.
- Intentional time for friendships is crucial for intimacy.
- Creating safe spaces allows for vulnerability.
- Asking for help is a skill that can be developed.
- Offering tangible help can be more effective than open-ended offers.
- Building new friendships requires taking risks.
- Every connection has the potential to grow into a friendship.
- Sisterhood plays a crucial role in healing and support.
We want to hear from you! Send us your anonymous questions for the Podcast as well as our weekly IG Live Ask The Experts Q&A. https://realloveready.com/submitaquestion
Links:
https://uta.bulkbooks.com/products/sisterhood-heals-the-transformative-power-of-healing-in-community
https://www.sisterhoodheals.com/#sister-quiz
https://therapyforblackgirls.com/
FOLLOW DR. JOY: INSTAGRAM
FOLLOW RLR: INSTAGRAM | FACEBOOK | TIKTOK
Watch the podcast on YouTube: youtube.com/realloveready
Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to Let's Talk Love, the podcast that brings you real
talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week.
Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and
relationships, and they're here for you with tools, information,
and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love,
relate, and communicate. We tackle the big questions, not
(00:25):
shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the
joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme,
now let's talk. Love our wonderful listeners and
community. I am so excited to be joined by
(00:47):
Doctor Joy Hardin Bradford todayfor our conversation about
community and sisterhood on Let's Talk Gloves.
So thank you for joining us, Doctor.
Joy, thank you so much for having me, Robin.
It's a pleasure. It really, really is.
I listened to your book, Sisterhood Heals the
Transformative Power of Healing in Community this week, and I
(01:12):
loved your book Doctor Joy. I think the work you're doing to
help black women, black girls and building community amongst
women is, is powerful, importantwork.
And talking about the healing aspect of that, my best friends,
I've got actually quite a few best friends that work with us
on our team at, at Real Love Ready, which is incredible.
(01:34):
So we know the power of friendship and community, and
this is the very first time thatwe on this show, like I think I
actually don't know the number right now.
I think we're up to 80 episodes.But we have never had a guest on
to talk about friendship and sisterhood and healing in that
aspect. We talk a lot about intimate
relationships, but we really don't talk about friendship.
(01:57):
So this is exciting. Doctor Joy.
Very exciting. I'm very happy to be here to
talk about this for the first time.
But you know, Robin, I, I reallyappreciate you creating space
for this conversation because I think that's a part of what I
talk about in the book, right? Is this idea that when we think
about love, when we think about intimacy, so much of it is
focused on romantic relationships, right?
(02:17):
But our friendships and the relationships we have with the
women in our life are also incredibly intimate in some
ways, maybe even more intimate than those with a romantic
partner, right? And so I really appreciate you
creating space to have this conversation.
So I know that you are a licensed psycho psychologist.
You've got your master's in counseling and you you a lot of
(02:41):
breadth of work in helping in this, in this aspect.
So can you tell us about your background, please, Doctor Joy
And I know you've created this online space where you're
helping women with, you know, accessing therapy.
So please just tell us a little bit about yourself and why you
and actually also why you what led you to write your this book?
Yeah. So as you mentioned, I have a
(03:02):
Master's in vocational rehabilitation and counseling
and then I have a PhD in counseling psychology.
And as a part of the PhD program, we were required to do
an internship. And I did mine at Virginia
Commonwealth University and in the counseling center there and
have the opportunity to learn how to do therapy groups,
interpersonal process therapy groups.
(03:22):
And I really feel like I just fell in love with that modality.
And there was something that wasso incredibly powerful about the
transformation that you saw happen in a group that was very,
very different than I saw like in individual work because we
were doing both at the same time, right?
And so I think that group just became a real love and a passion
for me. And so I really wanted to be
(03:43):
able to use what I've learned inGroup and talk about it in the
book and Sisterhood heals. And so talking a lot about how
our friendship groups and how our sisterhood is really mimic
sometimes what we see in Group therapy.
A lot of my background is also in college student mental
health. And my favorite part of that
work was always outreach presentations.
So where we would go out to the sorority meetings, into the
(04:05):
residence halls to have presentations about mental
health. And I really see Therapy for
Black Girls as a continuation and an extension of that work.
The podcast, I think, is like a new outreach opportunity for me
where I'm reaching people wherever they are, talking about
different kinds of mental healthtopics.
How important is that? Right?
So how would you define sisterhood?
(04:27):
Sisterhood, I think is the family we choose for ourselves,
right? So there's a form of the family
we're born into, but I think sisterhood are those women that
we surround ourselves, that we are accountable to, that are
accountable to us, who really kind of helps to to pick us up
and, and, and support us throughout life.
Right. And so you talk about, you know,
(04:47):
you're sure, of course, about yourself in your book and your
story of how when you were little, you would be on the
porch with your, your, your family members, right, your
aunts and your mom and, and watching that dynamic and how
that really helped shape what, how you see that, you know, how
important community is. Can you talk about that?
(05:09):
And how like just? The modeling.
The modeling that you grew up with.
As you mentioned that Robin, I'mlike instantly transported to my
grandmother's front porch because I spent so much time
there. And so my mom actually has six
sisters and I have probably 31stcousins that are girls.
And so there's just a lot of women in my family.
(05:31):
And so holidays and time spent there were always really special
and magical. And I feel like I always just
felt so loved and supported by the women in my family.
I've been too. But I think a special a special
kind of relationship with the women in my family and the
relationships I saw between my mom and her sisters.
And I think that just kind of people watching and kind of
(05:51):
paying attention to what was going on really just kind of
gave me a thirst and a quest forhuman behavior and like why we
do the things that we do. But I think, you know, kind of
going back to the the ideas around how our ideas about
release to other women are shaped by the early experiences
we have. I think if you see your mom and
(06:11):
grandmother and aunts and peoplehave good relationships with
other women, I think it is more likely that you didn't mimic
that in your own life, right? And I think for a lot of us,
there has been messaging and like ideas that we've been
taught by the women in our family about being really weary
of other women in our in our lives, right?
Like that you can't trust women that there's all this cat
(06:34):
fighting and you know that you can't get too close to other
women. But I think when you've seen
healthy relationships and seen your mom and aunts and
grandmothers have healthy femalefriendships, then you you are
more likely to seek that out foryourself as well.
I, I agree with that doctor Joy.I mean, I, I, I grew up with the
same modeling around my mom had good friends, my family, the
(06:56):
women in my family very supportive and loving and caring
and sit down and just talk aboutabsolutely anything and
everything. There was no part but you know
something, I mean, I learned so much from reading your book and
especially around black women culture.
I mean, obviously I'm, you know,Caucasian white women that
doesn't I, I really it was so your book was so informative.
So thank you so much. But I was, I was surprised to
(07:19):
hear that that in as a black girl growing up, you said in the
culture of you said there you were, you were actually like you
just said you were, you were raised to think like be careful
about those girls at school, right, even from a young age.
And so where do you where do youthink that is where, whereas you
said right now that, you know, you grew up with a very
(07:41):
supportive like sister circle that you that you were modeled.
So that seems to be a juxtaposition, right?
Like was it like UK you could trust your family, You can trust
the women in your family, but don't trust strange stranger
girls at school. Like how does that?
Can you just talk a little bit more about that?
Yeah. And I and I think a lot of that
kind of comes from this scarcitymindset that unfortunately has
(08:02):
been a part of black culture kind of dating back to slavery,
right? Like this idea that we are kind
of needing to be leery of one another and like, only one of us
can succeed, right? So who was in the plantation
house and who was on the field? Like, a lot of it kind of, I
think spawns from there. And so this idea that, yes, you
could trust family, like, I never was taught anything about
(08:24):
like not trusting family members, but there were
conversations around like not being too close to other people.
Don't tell people too much of your business because you never
know how they're going to use itagainst you.
And I think a lot of that, again, comes from this idea that
you don't want to have somebody else succeed, and then you can't
go after the things that you want to do.
Now, I'm glad that no more of usare having different kinds of
(08:45):
conversations with the young women in our lives.
And I don't feel like I hear that as much.
But, you know, I'm not the only one.
You know, in doing the focus groups I did for the book, many
black women had that same kind of story that they were taught
to be a little more cautious about other girls in their lives
and, you know, to kind of keep the whole people at an arm's
length. Right, So this was another I, I,
(09:09):
I wrote down this, this quote orjust around the fact that
talking about the how our friendships really help with our
physical and mental health. But then you talk about
loneliness, right? You said the Loneliness Index
reported that 61% Americans shared feeling lonely.
(09:32):
That same year, a study of 2000 Americans commissioned by Evite
found that the average American hadn't made a new friend in the
past five years. And I was like, holy crap.
Like, so this is my best friend and I who work on the podcast
together. And I was like, like looking on
my, like counting on my hand, mynew friends in the last five
(09:53):
years. And I'm like, you know, I was
naming like really close people in my life that just came into
my life in in five years. And I'm like, I'm like, that's
pretty awesome. But also like to think that
that's not common. Like, wow.
Yeah. Were you really shocked to read
that? Because I'm thinking even my
partner that I'm with, like I love him so much.
He's impacted my life so greatly.
(10:14):
I met we, you know, we've been, we've been together almost now
eight months. Like doesn't seem like a long
time, but my other best friend and this best friend, I'm like
we met in the last five years and like what a great and a huge
improvement that they've broughtinto my life.
Yeah. I think I was both shocked and
not shocked to read that, Robin,because I think about, like, how
busy most of us are, right? I think, you know, when people
(10:36):
are going to work and then goingto, you know, after school
activities, maybe for their children.
And then like, you got to get home and get dinner on the table
and then, like, you sleep for a few hours and you start it all
over again, right. Like, when are people actually
having the time to connect with new people?
Now, I think that there are opportunities to meet other
people in some of those settings.
But I think for most people, they are kind of like in a
(10:57):
routine of like kind of is trying to get through the day
and through the week. And so there isn't a lot of
time, right? Like, you hear all this
conversation about the lack of third spaces, right?
And like that we don't have these places to kind of casually
hang out anymore. And so I'm not surprised that
more people are not like findingnew friends to connect with.
Right. Hope everybody reads your book,
(11:18):
Doctor Joy, because it's just sofull of tools, really
information and tools for havingdeeper intimacy with your
friendships. Because really I, I know in my
own life I've got 9 best friendsthat I grew up with and I know
that's not common. It is so rare.
Like there's ten of us and we are close.
Like it's not just there's ten of us and we just go like girls
(11:40):
trips. No, no, no, it's not like that
at all. It's more like we are sisters
and like they're the like we arelike very, very close.
But I understand that that's a rarity.
So what? What are the 4S S of sisterhood?
Mm hmm. So sisterhood allows us to be
seen. So there is a way that I think
black women see one another thatreally allows you to feel not
(12:03):
invisible, as many of us do, I think, in other spaces in our
lives. So it allows us to be seen.
It allows us to be supported andto support one another.
It allows us to soften. So in conversations for the
book, there was a lot of, you know, talk about like having to
kind of put this armor on beforeyou go into a workplace or
before you go into a particular kind of setting.
(12:24):
And then when you're with other black women, you don't have to,
you know, kind of feel that. And then sisterhood also allows
us to have greater knowledge of our self.
And so I think that there are some things that we just do not
and cannot know about ourselves until we are in relationship
with other people. And so having these intimate,
close relationships with other women really allow you to have a
greater knowledge of yourself. Right.
(12:48):
And you talk about guidelines insisterhood, right?
And so this is it is from your model of doing group therapy
like Doctor Joy. For those of the listeners that
haven't read your book yet and aren't really unfamiliar with
your work of organizing group therapy, like what would be
like, how does it work Like withwith, for instance, like
(13:11):
guidelines that people that you absolutely recommend like to
follow? Yeah.
So I think it's really importantfor you to have a genuine
curiosity about other people. I think so many times when like
we get into a conversation, it can feel judgy, right, which
never feels good, right? But I think when people approach
us with a spirit of curiosity, Ithink it is a very different
(13:33):
kind of conversation and you're actually inviting a conversation
as opposed to like one word answers.
So I think that that's really important is that we approach
conversations with a spirit of of curiosity.
I also think it's really important to have no
distractions. And yours is right.
So again, many of us are so busy, we trying to multitask and
(13:53):
like, OK, let me squeeze in thisconversation with my girlfriend.
But if you really want to kind of createspace for somebody in
whole space or somebody, then I think it's really important that
you kind of be away from your phone.
You're not trying to tend to other kinds of things at the
same time. And I also think it's really
important for you to make sure that you actually have adequate
space to be able to manage anything that they may be
(14:15):
talking about, right? So a part of what we learned as
therapist is that there may be particular kinds of cases that
you cannot take because it's tooclose to maybe something going
on in your own life. You know, so that the example
that we use pretty often is, youknow, if you are going through a
recent divorce, are you able to effectively help another couple
who is having marriage or or relationship problems, right?
(14:37):
And sometimes the answer is yes,but sometimes the answer is that
it's too close, right? And your objectivity is
compromised. And so maybe you need to step
away from those kinds of cases, you know, for the time being.
And I think the same thing happens with our own
friendships, right? Like if a friend is struggling
with relationship concerns and we are also struggling with
relationship concerns, are you actually in a good place to be
(14:59):
able to hold space for this person to be able to not muddy
your stuff with their stuff so that you're not objectively
listening to? Them and so let's let's talk
about holding space because I don't I don't think I just think
there's a lot around this concept like what does it mean
to clearly hold like to hold space for someone?
(15:21):
Yeah. And I think that that's a term
that kind of has been thrown around a lot, Robin.
And you know, I don't know people, yeah, don't know that
people always know what it means.
But it is kind of, yeah, it's kind of figuratively creating a
container for somebody to deposit what they are struggling
with or some experience that they are feeling.
And so that does look like beingnon judgmental.
(15:43):
That looks like listening more than you are talking.
That looks like really just kindof sitting with someone in the
depths of whatever it is that they are struggling with.
And so it doesn't always look like you having to have the
answers. In fact, most often you won't
have answers if you're just holding space for someone.
But it really is just like the sitting alongside someone when
(16:04):
they are really struggling with something.
Yes, something that, so this wasat least about 11 or 12 years
ago. I joined a group called, our
group is called Soul Circle. There's four women.
We come together every two weeksfor an hour in the morning from
7:00 to 8:00 AM, right? And, and our ritual is that we,
(16:30):
we only have an hour, but we, wemake sure that we divvy up the
time and we hold space for each other, for we each have our 11
minutes, let's say, and somebody's, somebody's the timer
and we go through and share whatever we want to.
And, and then after our 11 minutes is up, the other three,
(16:52):
after witnessing, listening, holding space can ask for
consent. Like, would you like me to say,
would you like feedback? Right.
It's like this the most loving container.
I am telling it's been transformative and I think
anybody can do so. Originally it was through a
business mastermind idea. You know, most of us had taken B
(17:16):
school and wanted to talk about our businesses, the Marie Forleo
B school. And then over time, we realized
that our group was just talking way more about our personal
stuff, like that's what we what we needed in our group.
And now, I mean, we've lost a few members, but all for the
(17:37):
right reasons. I just think it's like what's
meant to be is meant to be in our in our, our group is so
sacred. And now it's like the four of us
that are still there, you know, every two weeks.
And it doesn't take a lot of time.
I think that's the other thing, Joy is that, you know, it is
incredible what this group has really brought to my life.
And I know we all feel the same way, but it's one hour every two
(17:58):
weeks. I mean, you think about it, but
then we support each other, of course, you know, we're friends.
We're we're really, really closefriends now.
So it's not like we don't connect outside of that, right?
But I just, I think there's justso much beauty in the holding
space part. Right, Yeah.
And I think that there's something really special about
like the intentionality of having this protected time on
(18:19):
your calendar, right? Because I think that this is
where a lot of the intimacy is lost in friendships is that it
feels like, oh, I've known them for so long.
And so we can kind of just catchup whenever, but a lot of us
know that if it's not on the calendar, it's probably not
happening. And so I think having that very
clear time that is protected, you know, you're not scheduling
anything else there. You're probably trying not to
(18:39):
miss it if at all possible. I think that there's something
that's really powerful about theintention set behind that and
everybody kind of protecting that time as space with one
another. So what about vulnerability?
And so how are you counseling, coaching, guiding people to open
up to being, how important vulnerability is?
(19:01):
Can we please talk about that, Doctor Joy?
And then, like, how are you leading women to become more
vulnerable so that they can build more intimacy in these
connections? Yeah, I think vulnerability is
really, really difficult becauseI think especially for black
women, right, like so many of ushave been socialized and taught
to have this like strong exterior.
Like you got to be there for everybody.
(19:22):
You can't show weakness. Like that is, you know, show
asking for help is a sign of weakness kind of thing.
And so I think even when you want to be vulnerable, it takes
a lot and there's a lot of kind of unlearning and rewiring that
has to be done for you to actually allow somebody to see
who you are. Because I think so many of us
just don't want to acknowledge that we have flaws, that we're
(19:44):
not perfect, that there are things wrong in our lives.
And so I think it is only in safe spaces, right?
Like spaces where you don't feellike people will judge you or
think that you're weird for having some kind of issue.
Those are the spaces where you can kind of take those masks
off. You can take some of those
layers of. Armor off and really allow
people to see you and I I think one of the things that I am most
(20:07):
often working with clients and just greater conversations in
the therapy for Black girls community is about doing more
asking for help. I think that so many of us are
the strong friend. We are the reliable, responsible
person in so many other people'slives.
Like we are the one that everybody is coming to, but we
don't typically have those people in our lives who we are
(20:28):
going to. But that doesn't mean that those
people don't exist. I think many of us just don't
take the opportunity to even askfor help because we are seen as
the one who is the responsible. 1 And so I talk a lot about
allowing people to show up for you in the same way that you
show up for so many other people.
And I think it is just a muscle that we have to practice, right?
(20:49):
It's just like any other skill that you learn is doing more
asking for him. Doctor Joy, that is so great.
I love that I, it is a muscle. There's a belief system around
that. Like I can do this.
I'm capable, but no, like it's just like, that's enough.
It's like, like we like, you know, in the, in the book you
talk about the paradox of the rock, right?
And how it's like they're, and Ithink like I, I could see this
(21:13):
in you. I could see it me and so many of
the women I'm surrounded by. We are the rocks like we are
strong, independent, like capable women.
And but guess what, I I still I'm, I'm a softy on the inside,
like like and I and I want help and I need help.
I don't want to do it all right.Right.
And it is such A and so, right, because because you can, you
(21:36):
probably can do a lot. I can't.
Have to. Do you have to?
And the older I get, like we're close in age, like you and I are
two years apart, the older I getjoy.
I'm like, I want help. And I am getting really good at
asking for it because I do so much for other people.
And like, I can take, I can, I can have like 20 balls in the
(21:57):
air and we're good. But then I'm like.
Actually, I don't want to have 20 balls in the air.
I would like you to take a couple.
You take a couple. We're good.
And I'm no longer ashamed of like really just like asking for
help. It's just a beautiful, beautiful
thing. Yeah.
Yeah, and I. Think the truth is that people
want to step up for us, right? Like especially when you have
been the one who's been there for a bunch of people, like
(22:19):
people want to have the opportunity to pay that back.
But again, so many of us kind ofget in our own way and kind of
build these stories around ourselves where we don't even
want to ask for it. So I think it is actually a very
loving act to allow people to show up for you in the same way
as you've shown up for them. You give some great examples.
I love this. OK, Because we are used to
saying to somebody, like, let's say somebody is going through a
(22:42):
time of grief or they're just having a heart, hey, who knows?
Whatever it is, it's just like you can see that your sister
needs some help, right? And they're going through like,
you want to be there for them. And too commonly we'll be like,
how can I help you? I'm here to help.
How can I help? And you're like, that's not the
right question. That's not the right approach
because I don't know even know where to start.
(23:03):
Like if I'm feeling overwhelmed that something's going, you
know, haywire in my life, I'm not even up to even answering
that question because I'm just like, no, I can't give you any
assistance on how to help me. So you give you give some really
great examples of this in the book around.
Like, I love that example you give on this woman who sent a
(23:23):
text to her friend and said, I can't remember what it was that
she was going through, but it was like, OK, I can number one,
I can leave a meal on your doorstep and go and go away.
OK #2 I could pick up your kids from school and take them for
ice cream #3 I can, I can pray for you, which I am doing
anyways. And, and then don't worry and #4
(23:47):
none of the above. Like I love you, Eddie.
Like you don't need to respond. And I just like giving those
very tangible ways that you can and you want to help.
And then that person would like to say #2 please.
And number all of the above. Does it matter right?
Yeah, I think that that's so important to be able to give
people tangible things that likeyou could offer them because we
(24:10):
often, and I think it is well meaning, like there are well
intentions, like, oh, let me know if you need anything,
right? Like I think many of us do want
to be there if we know there's something we can do.
But like you said, when people are overwhelmed, when they're
grieving, when you know they arestruggling with their mental
health, they often don't know where to start.
Like they often feel overwhelmedby just making another decision.
(24:31):
And so if you know this person well enough to be able to kind
of intuit what might they need right now.
So is it likely they're not kindof feeding themselves?
Like, can you go do some groceryshopping or can you send over,
you know, some of their food? If you know they are likely not
like taking care of laundry and those kinds of things, can you
offer to go over and wash a couple of loads of laundry or go
(24:52):
and do some drinks? Something that would help SO.
Much more things. Exactly, exactly, exactly.
And again, of course, this in this in means that you have a
close enough relationship where somebody would like let you into
their house and do their laundryright?
But but if you do but even but. Even like for instance, like
let's say you're not even that close to that.
Let's just say you're like, OK, I can come and help clean your
(25:13):
house or I can hire, I can hire a cleaning company.
My cleaner instead of cleaning my house this week, they'll come
and clean your house. Like that is like a big, huge
gift That is like, you know, right, I really like talking
about. Things I can take take off of
the list for people. Right, I remember when my twin
brother died and I you don't even you don't even know where
to start. But one of my closest friends,
(25:35):
like what an Angel on earth. And she says she she called me
and she said, Robin, can I help you pick the hymns for the
service? I'm thinking, I didn't even
think about that. I mean, that's not on my To Do
List, but obviously it has to get done right.
I was like, yes, like what an incredible gift.
(25:58):
And what do you think happened? She chose hims that we grew up
listening to in church. Like it's just like, what are
the chances? Well, I mean, that's a gift.
Like just it was invaluable. But I just, I'll never forget
about that very real, tangible example of something that just
was like a weight lifted off, like amongst all that heaviness.
So beyond doing group therapy, if people don't have access to
(26:22):
to this in their lives or they just really don't have a sense
of community or sisterhood in their lives, like how in an
everyday setting, like, how are you encouraging or tools that
people can, like, take into their own lives to actually
cultivate even just one new friendship or one new connection
that would bring right bring that into their lives?
(26:45):
Yeah. What ideas do you have for that
Doctor Joy? So I think, Robin, that there
are often people in the backgrounds of our lives who
with a little bit of effort could move to the foreground,
right? So maybe there is a mom that you
see in the carpool line and y'all kind of exchanged
pleasantries, but it doesn't go any further.
Or maybe you sit next to somebody in your Pilates class
(27:05):
and you know, again, you smile and say hi, but like after
you're done, everybody goes backto their cars.
What would it be like for you tosay, hey, would you like to grab
a smoothie after Pilates? Or hey, would you like to get
breakfast after we drop the kidsoff?
And I think that that's hard forpeople because nobody wants to
be rejected, right? Like, what if they say no?
What if they think I'm weird? You know, and all of that is
(27:26):
possible, but this is the this is the case of if there is no
risk, there is no reward. And so, you know, kind of
pulling up your big girl pants and just putting yourself out
there and saying, hey, would youlike to do this thing?
And I think it's also really important to make sure that you
keep your expectations realistic.
So this could be somebody who becomes a lifelong friend or it
(27:47):
could just be a nice smoothie, right?
And so just go into it with being open and not expecting
that this is going to be your new BFF.
I really like that I was, I'm talking to Kirsten, my best
friend about this. We're like, OK, we're talking
about OK, last five years, our new friends, right.
And how did these come about? Because I, I wanted to uncover
that for her too. She lives in Scotland, I live in
(28:08):
Victoria, BC I mean, we're on different sides of the planet,
but I'm just like, OK, so how did and she was talking about
how she used to go into this place where it was like house
design place and the owner of the store and her because
connected and just like we're very, very friendly and like
just like she felt like good vibe right with this woman.
And you know, maybe by the thirdor fourth time going in the
(28:31):
store, she she was like, do you want to go for a coffee one day?
And the old woman's like, yes, and now they meet almost on a
weekly basis. They are just such good friends.
So great example of like this issomebody that you just that's an
example, right. And I was thinking about when a
women's store that I that I go to for my clothing, the owner
(28:54):
same. I mean, I just like fell in love
with her from the beginning whenI met her and I would and I said
to her, I was like, Rebecca, canwe please be friends?
You know, what do I have to lose?
I still love your clothes. If you say no, you I'm still
going to shop here. But anyway, yes, Robin, I really
want to be your friend and she and I are like really close
friends. So what do you have to lose,
(29:16):
right? Yeah, you don't have anything to
lose. You already didn't have this
friendship. So if she says no, then you
still don't have the friendship,right.
And I think that there's there'sa saying that a lot of people
use here called shoot your shot,right?
So it's the idea that you're like, oh, I really like this
person's vibe like you mentioned, right?
Like you sometimes can just telllike I think we would be really
good friends or at least enjoy each other's company, right.
(29:38):
And so there's nothing wrong with shooting your shot in a
friendship way. I think we think about it
romantically, right? Like you see somebody that's
attractive, in fact, if you wantto slide them your number, but
you can also do that with peoplethat you think would be fun
company, even platonically. So I think more of us should
take those risks when we feel like there's somebody who has
like a kindred spirit and somebody we would enjoy spending
(29:59):
some time with, just letting them know and seeing if there's
an opportunity to grow a friendship.
Right. And I also think Doctor Joy in
your book, you just like you just reinforce more around, and
you just said it around the factthat there could be even a
friendship or something in the foreground that you can become
closer to just by making the time reaching out.
(30:22):
And when you are with that person, it is with more
intentionality, like you're likean acquaintance or even a friend
that you want to be closer to. It's like holding space for that
person, giving them that your undivided attention, right, just
being more in service to that friendship and right and seeing
how how that will that can help you in in return.
(30:43):
I I know that's how it works. Exactly.
Where, what, what, how can people work more from you and
work work more with you and learn more from you?
Like, tell us what you're up to these days, how people can
follow you. Yeah, so as you mentioned, I
would love for more people to read Sisterhood Heels because I
think that they are very timely conversations.
(31:04):
I think I again love that you have created space of this
conversation. And I want more of us to really
put more credence on the female friendships and the
relationships that we have platonically with the women in
our lives. So you can go to
sisterhoodheels.com and learn more about the book.
You can take a quiz to find out who you are in your friends
circle because I think that that's really important to think
(31:25):
about the role that we play in our friends circle so that I
think it's a fun, a fun opportunity.
And then you can listen to more of the conversations that I
mentioned before on the Therapy for Black Girls podcast.
So if you go to therapyforblackgirls.com, you'll
be able to listen to the podcast, but also we have a
therapist directory for people who want to get connected to
therapists in their area, thoughthere are lots of opportunities
(31:47):
to get connected on our website as well.
I think that's, I think that's wonderful.
I think that's, that's also something you've really brought
to your community, which is not,that's a resource that so many
people can tap into is finding atherapist in their area, because
I mean, I love therapy. And if you can have access to it
where you live, obviously that's, that's, that's great.
Well, I want to thank you, Doctor Joy, for the tremendous
(32:10):
work you're doing. I mean, it means it means a lot.
And I loved your book and I thank you so much for your time
today. I really appreciate it.
Thank you Robin, it was fun to chat with you.
I always, we always close our podcast with a blessing, and the
blessing is based on your work and what I've learned from you
this week. So may we heal together through
(32:33):
our sisterhood. Our friendships give us a safe
space to be seen, heard, and held.
Not to mention so much joy. I've just had so much joy with
my friendships, that's for sure.May we be more vulnerable with
people we feel safe around. By sharing ourselves and the
truths about who we are and our experiences, we can form
(32:55):
authentic connections and cultivate new friendships.
And may we use sisterhood to become the best possible
versions of ourselves. And I think our friendships
really enable us to do that, to grow and be the best versions of
ourselves. So thank you, Doctor Joy.
Thank you, Robin. Beautiful blessing.
Thank you so much for being herewith us.
(33:17):
Let's talk Love is brought to you by Real Love Ready and
hosted by Robin Ducharme. If you'd like to keep learning
with us, visit realloveready.comfor more resources and tools to
boost your relational skills andget better at love.
If this podcast has resonated with you, it would mean the
world to us if you could take just 30 seconds to do these
three things. Follow or subscribe.
(33:39):
Never miss an episode by hittingthe follow or subscribe button
wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether it's Apple
Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite app.
This makes sure new episodes show up automatically for you,
and it helps us get more visibility so more people can
find our show. Leave a rating and review.
Your feedback means everything to us.
(34:00):
By leaving a five star rating and a thoughtful review, you're
not only showing your support but also helping others discover
the podcast. Share an episode that really
spoke to you with someone in your life.
Whether it's a friend, partner or family member, your
recommendation could just be what they need to hear.
We at Real Love Ready acknowledge and express
gratitude for the Coach Salish people, the stewards of the land
(34:23):
on which we work and play, and encourage you to take a moment
to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have
stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live
on as well. Many blessings and much love.
Welcome to Let's Talk Love, the podcast that brings you real
talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week.
Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and
relationships, and they're here for you with tools, information,
and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love,
relate, and communicate. We tackle the big questions, not
(00:25):
shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the
joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme,
now let's talk. Love our wonderful listeners and
community. I am so excited to be joined by
(00:47):
Doctor Joy Hardin Bradford todayfor our conversation about
community and sisterhood on Let's Talk Gloves.
So thank you for joining us, Doctor.
Joy, thank you so much for having me, Robin.
It's a pleasure. It really, really is.
I listened to your book, Sisterhood Heals the
Transformative Power of Healing in Community this week, and I
(01:12):
loved your book Doctor Joy. I think the work you're doing to
help black women, black girls and building community amongst
women is, is powerful, importantwork.
And talking about the healing aspect of that, my best friends,
I've got actually quite a few best friends that work with us
on our team at, at Real Love Ready, which is incredible.
(01:34):
So we know the power of friendship and community, and
this is the very first time thatwe on this show, like I think I
actually don't know the number right now.
I think we're up to 80 episodes.But we have never had a guest on
to talk about friendship and sisterhood and healing in that
aspect. We talk a lot about intimate
relationships, but we really don't talk about friendship.
(01:57):
So this is exciting. Doctor Joy.
Very exciting. I'm very happy to be here to
talk about this for the first time.
But you know, Robin, I, I reallyappreciate you creating space
for this conversation because I think that's a part of what I
talk about in the book, right? Is this idea that when we think
about love, when we think about intimacy, so much of it is
focused on romantic relationships, right?
(02:17):
But our friendships and the relationships we have with the
women in our life are also incredibly intimate in some
ways, maybe even more intimate than those with a romantic
partner, right? And so I really appreciate you
creating space to have this conversation.
So I know that you are a licensed psycho psychologist.
You've got your master's in counseling and you you a lot of
(02:41):
breadth of work in helping in this, in this aspect.
So can you tell us about your background, please, Doctor Joy
And I know you've created this online space where you're
helping women with, you know, accessing therapy.
So please just tell us a little bit about yourself and why you
and actually also why you what led you to write your this book?
Yeah. So as you mentioned, I have a
(03:02):
Master's in vocational rehabilitation and counseling
and then I have a PhD in counseling psychology.
And as a part of the PhD program, we were required to do
an internship. And I did mine at Virginia
Commonwealth University and in the counseling center there and
have the opportunity to learn how to do therapy groups,
interpersonal process therapy groups.
(03:22):
And I really feel like I just fell in love with that modality.
And there was something that wasso incredibly powerful about the
transformation that you saw happen in a group that was very,
very different than I saw like in individual work because we
were doing both at the same time, right?
And so I think that group just became a real love and a passion
for me. And so I really wanted to be
(03:43):
able to use what I've learned inGroup and talk about it in the
book and Sisterhood heals. And so talking a lot about how
our friendship groups and how our sisterhood is really mimic
sometimes what we see in Group therapy.
A lot of my background is also in college student mental
health. And my favorite part of that
work was always outreach presentations.
So where we would go out to the sorority meetings, into the
(04:05):
residence halls to have presentations about mental
health. And I really see Therapy for
Black Girls as a continuation and an extension of that work.
The podcast, I think, is like a new outreach opportunity for me
where I'm reaching people wherever they are, talking about
different kinds of mental healthtopics.
How important is that? Right?
So how would you define sisterhood?
(04:27):
Sisterhood, I think is the family we choose for ourselves,
right? So there's a form of the family
we're born into, but I think sisterhood are those women that
we surround ourselves, that we are accountable to, that are
accountable to us, who really kind of helps to to pick us up
and, and, and support us throughout life.
Right. And so you talk about, you know,
(04:47):
you're sure, of course, about yourself in your book and your
story of how when you were little, you would be on the
porch with your, your, your family members, right, your
aunts and your mom and, and watching that dynamic and how
that really helped shape what, how you see that, you know, how
important community is. Can you talk about that?
(05:09):
And how like just? The modeling.
The modeling that you grew up with.
As you mentioned that Robin, I'mlike instantly transported to my
grandmother's front porch because I spent so much time
there. And so my mom actually has six
sisters and I have probably 31stcousins that are girls.
And so there's just a lot of women in my family.
(05:31):
And so holidays and time spent there were always really special
and magical. And I feel like I always just
felt so loved and supported by the women in my family.
I've been too. But I think a special a special
kind of relationship with the women in my family and the
relationships I saw between my mom and her sisters.
And I think that just kind of people watching and kind of
(05:51):
paying attention to what was going on really just kind of
gave me a thirst and a quest forhuman behavior and like why we
do the things that we do. But I think, you know, kind of
going back to the the ideas around how our ideas about
release to other women are shaped by the early experiences
we have. I think if you see your mom and
(06:11):
grandmother and aunts and peoplehave good relationships with
other women, I think it is more likely that you didn't mimic
that in your own life, right? And I think for a lot of us,
there has been messaging and like ideas that we've been
taught by the women in our family about being really weary
of other women in our in our lives, right?
Like that you can't trust women that there's all this cat
(06:34):
fighting and you know that you can't get too close to other
women. But I think when you've seen
healthy relationships and seen your mom and aunts and
grandmothers have healthy femalefriendships, then you you are
more likely to seek that out foryourself as well.
I, I agree with that doctor Joy.I mean, I, I, I grew up with the
same modeling around my mom had good friends, my family, the
(06:56):
women in my family very supportive and loving and caring
and sit down and just talk aboutabsolutely anything and
everything. There was no part but you know
something, I mean, I learned so much from reading your book and
especially around black women culture.
I mean, obviously I'm, you know,Caucasian white women that
doesn't I, I really it was so your book was so informative.
So thank you so much. But I was, I was surprised to
(07:19):
hear that that in as a black girl growing up, you said in the
culture of you said there you were, you were actually like you
just said you were, you were raised to think like be careful
about those girls at school, right, even from a young age.
And so where do you where do youthink that is where, whereas you
said right now that, you know, you grew up with a very
(07:41):
supportive like sister circle that you that you were modeled.
So that seems to be a juxtaposition, right?
Like was it like UK you could trust your family, You can trust
the women in your family, but don't trust strange stranger
girls at school. Like how does that?
Can you just talk a little bit more about that?
Yeah. And I and I think a lot of that
kind of comes from this scarcitymindset that unfortunately has
(08:02):
been a part of black culture kind of dating back to slavery,
right? Like this idea that we are kind
of needing to be leery of one another and like, only one of us
can succeed, right? So who was in the plantation
house and who was on the field? Like, a lot of it kind of, I
think spawns from there. And so this idea that, yes, you
could trust family, like, I never was taught anything about
(08:24):
like not trusting family members, but there were
conversations around like not being too close to other people.
Don't tell people too much of your business because you never
know how they're going to use itagainst you.
And I think a lot of that, again, comes from this idea that
you don't want to have somebody else succeed, and then you can't
go after the things that you want to do.
Now, I'm glad that no more of usare having different kinds of
(08:45):
conversations with the young women in our lives.
And I don't feel like I hear that as much.
But, you know, I'm not the only one.
You know, in doing the focus groups I did for the book, many
black women had that same kind of story that they were taught
to be a little more cautious about other girls in their lives
and, you know, to kind of keep the whole people at an arm's
length. Right, So this was another I, I,
(09:09):
I wrote down this, this quote orjust around the fact that
talking about the how our friendships really help with our
physical and mental health. But then you talk about
loneliness, right? You said the Loneliness Index
reported that 61% Americans shared feeling lonely.
(09:32):
That same year, a study of 2000 Americans commissioned by Evite
found that the average American hadn't made a new friend in the
past five years. And I was like, holy crap.
Like, so this is my best friend and I who work on the podcast
together. And I was like, like looking on
my, like counting on my hand, mynew friends in the last five
(09:53):
years. And I'm like, you know, I was
naming like really close people in my life that just came into
my life in in five years. And I'm like, I'm like, that's
pretty awesome. But also like to think that
that's not common. Like, wow.
Yeah. Were you really shocked to read
that? Because I'm thinking even my
partner that I'm with, like I love him so much.
He's impacted my life so greatly.
(10:14):
I met we, you know, we've been, we've been together almost now
eight months. Like doesn't seem like a long
time, but my other best friend and this best friend, I'm like
we met in the last five years and like what a great and a huge
improvement that they've broughtinto my life.
Yeah. I think I was both shocked and
not shocked to read that, Robin,because I think about, like, how
busy most of us are, right? I think, you know, when people
(10:36):
are going to work and then goingto, you know, after school
activities, maybe for their children.
And then like, you got to get home and get dinner on the table
and then, like, you sleep for a few hours and you start it all
over again, right. Like, when are people actually
having the time to connect with new people?
Now, I think that there are opportunities to meet other
people in some of those settings.
But I think for most people, they are kind of like in a
(10:57):
routine of like kind of is trying to get through the day
and through the week. And so there isn't a lot of
time, right? Like, you hear all this
conversation about the lack of third spaces, right?
And like that we don't have these places to kind of casually
hang out anymore. And so I'm not surprised that
more people are not like findingnew friends to connect with.
Right. Hope everybody reads your book,
(11:18):
Doctor Joy, because it's just sofull of tools, really
information and tools for havingdeeper intimacy with your
friendships. Because really I, I know in my
own life I've got 9 best friendsthat I grew up with and I know
that's not common. It is so rare.
Like there's ten of us and we are close.
Like it's not just there's ten of us and we just go like girls
(11:40):
trips. No, no, no, it's not like that
at all. It's more like we are sisters
and like they're the like we arelike very, very close.
But I understand that that's a rarity.
So what? What are the 4S S of sisterhood?
Mm hmm. So sisterhood allows us to be
seen. So there is a way that I think
black women see one another thatreally allows you to feel not
(12:03):
invisible, as many of us do, I think, in other spaces in our
lives. So it allows us to be seen.
It allows us to be supported andto support one another.
It allows us to soften. So in conversations for the
book, there was a lot of, you know, talk about like having to
kind of put this armor on beforeyou go into a workplace or
before you go into a particular kind of setting.
(12:24):
And then when you're with other black women, you don't have to,
you know, kind of feel that. And then sisterhood also allows
us to have greater knowledge of our self.
And so I think that there are some things that we just do not
and cannot know about ourselves until we are in relationship
with other people. And so having these intimate,
close relationships with other women really allow you to have a
greater knowledge of yourself. Right.
(12:48):
And you talk about guidelines insisterhood, right?
And so this is it is from your model of doing group therapy
like Doctor Joy. For those of the listeners that
haven't read your book yet and aren't really unfamiliar with
your work of organizing group therapy, like what would be
like, how does it work Like withwith, for instance, like
(13:11):
guidelines that people that you absolutely recommend like to
follow? Yeah.
So I think it's really importantfor you to have a genuine
curiosity about other people. I think so many times when like
we get into a conversation, it can feel judgy, right, which
never feels good, right? But I think when people approach
us with a spirit of curiosity, Ithink it is a very different
(13:33):
kind of conversation and you're actually inviting a conversation
as opposed to like one word answers.
So I think that that's really important is that we approach
conversations with a spirit of of curiosity.
I also think it's really important to have no
distractions. And yours is right.
So again, many of us are so busy, we trying to multitask and
(13:53):
like, OK, let me squeeze in thisconversation with my girlfriend.
But if you really want to kind of createspace for somebody in
whole space or somebody, then I think it's really important that
you kind of be away from your phone.
You're not trying to tend to other kinds of things at the
same time. And I also think it's really
important for you to make sure that you actually have adequate
space to be able to manage anything that they may be
(14:15):
talking about, right? So a part of what we learned as
therapist is that there may be particular kinds of cases that
you cannot take because it's tooclose to maybe something going
on in your own life. You know, so that the example
that we use pretty often is, youknow, if you are going through a
recent divorce, are you able to effectively help another couple
who is having marriage or or relationship problems, right?
(14:37):
And sometimes the answer is yes,but sometimes the answer is that
it's too close, right? And your objectivity is
compromised. And so maybe you need to step
away from those kinds of cases, you know, for the time being.
And I think the same thing happens with our own
friendships, right? Like if a friend is struggling
with relationship concerns and we are also struggling with
relationship concerns, are you actually in a good place to be
(14:59):
able to hold space for this person to be able to not muddy
your stuff with their stuff so that you're not objectively
listening to? Them and so let's let's talk
about holding space because I don't I don't think I just think
there's a lot around this concept like what does it mean
to clearly hold like to hold space for someone?
(15:21):
Yeah. And I think that that's a term
that kind of has been thrown around a lot, Robin.
And you know, I don't know people, yeah, don't know that
people always know what it means.
But it is kind of, yeah, it's kind of figuratively creating a
container for somebody to deposit what they are struggling
with or some experience that they are feeling.
And so that does look like beingnon judgmental.
(15:43):
That looks like listening more than you are talking.
That looks like really just kindof sitting with someone in the
depths of whatever it is that they are struggling with.
And so it doesn't always look like you having to have the
answers. In fact, most often you won't
have answers if you're just holding space for someone.
But it really is just like the sitting alongside someone when
(16:04):
they are really struggling with something.
Yes, something that, so this wasat least about 11 or 12 years
ago. I joined a group called, our
group is called Soul Circle. There's four women.
We come together every two weeksfor an hour in the morning from
7:00 to 8:00 AM, right? And, and our ritual is that we,
(16:30):
we only have an hour, but we, wemake sure that we divvy up the
time and we hold space for each other, for we each have our 11
minutes, let's say, and somebody's, somebody's the timer
and we go through and share whatever we want to.
And, and then after our 11 minutes is up, the other three,
(16:52):
after witnessing, listening, holding space can ask for
consent. Like, would you like me to say,
would you like feedback? Right.
It's like this the most loving container.
I am telling it's been transformative and I think
anybody can do so. Originally it was through a
business mastermind idea. You know, most of us had taken B
(17:16):
school and wanted to talk about our businesses, the Marie Forleo
B school. And then over time, we realized
that our group was just talking way more about our personal
stuff, like that's what we what we needed in our group.
And now, I mean, we've lost a few members, but all for the
(17:37):
right reasons. I just think it's like what's
meant to be is meant to be in our in our, our group is so
sacred. And now it's like the four of us
that are still there, you know, every two weeks.
And it doesn't take a lot of time.
I think that's the other thing, Joy is that, you know, it is
incredible what this group has really brought to my life.
And I know we all feel the same way, but it's one hour every two
(17:58):
weeks. I mean, you think about it, but
then we support each other, of course, you know, we're friends.
We're we're really, really closefriends now.
So it's not like we don't connect outside of that, right?
But I just, I think there's justso much beauty in the holding
space part. Right, Yeah.
And I think that there's something really special about
like the intentionality of having this protected time on
(18:19):
your calendar, right? Because I think that this is
where a lot of the intimacy is lost in friendships is that it
feels like, oh, I've known them for so long.
And so we can kind of just catchup whenever, but a lot of us
know that if it's not on the calendar, it's probably not
happening. And so I think having that very
clear time that is protected, you know, you're not scheduling
anything else there. You're probably trying not to
(18:39):
miss it if at all possible. I think that there's something
that's really powerful about theintention set behind that and
everybody kind of protecting that time as space with one
another. So what about vulnerability?
And so how are you counseling, coaching, guiding people to open
up to being, how important vulnerability is?
(19:01):
Can we please talk about that, Doctor Joy?
And then, like, how are you leading women to become more
vulnerable so that they can build more intimacy in these
connections? Yeah, I think vulnerability is
really, really difficult becauseI think especially for black
women, right, like so many of ushave been socialized and taught
to have this like strong exterior.
Like you got to be there for everybody.
(19:22):
You can't show weakness. Like that is, you know, show
asking for help is a sign of weakness kind of thing.
And so I think even when you want to be vulnerable, it takes
a lot and there's a lot of kind of unlearning and rewiring that
has to be done for you to actually allow somebody to see
who you are. Because I think so many of us
just don't want to acknowledge that we have flaws, that we're
(19:44):
not perfect, that there are things wrong in our lives.
And so I think it is only in safe spaces, right?
Like spaces where you don't feellike people will judge you or
think that you're weird for having some kind of issue.
Those are the spaces where you can kind of take those masks
off. You can take some of those
layers of. Armor off and really allow
people to see you and I I think one of the things that I am most
(20:07):
often working with clients and just greater conversations in
the therapy for Black girls community is about doing more
asking for help. I think that so many of us are
the strong friend. We are the reliable, responsible
person in so many other people'slives.
Like we are the one that everybody is coming to, but we
don't typically have those people in our lives who we are
(20:28):
going to. But that doesn't mean that those
people don't exist. I think many of us just don't
take the opportunity to even askfor help because we are seen as
the one who is the responsible. 1 And so I talk a lot about
allowing people to show up for you in the same way that you
show up for so many other people.
And I think it is just a muscle that we have to practice, right?
(20:49):
It's just like any other skill that you learn is doing more
asking for him. Doctor Joy, that is so great.
I love that I, it is a muscle. There's a belief system around
that. Like I can do this.
I'm capable, but no, like it's just like, that's enough.
It's like, like we like, you know, in the, in the book you
talk about the paradox of the rock, right?
And how it's like they're, and Ithink like I, I could see this
(21:13):
in you. I could see it me and so many of
the women I'm surrounded by. We are the rocks like we are
strong, independent, like capable women.
And but guess what, I I still I'm, I'm a softy on the inside,
like like and I and I want help and I need help.
I don't want to do it all right.Right.
And it is such A and so, right, because because you can, you
(21:36):
probably can do a lot. I can't.
Have to. Do you have to?
And the older I get, like we're close in age, like you and I are
two years apart, the older I getjoy.
I'm like, I want help. And I am getting really good at
asking for it because I do so much for other people.
And like, I can take, I can, I can have like 20 balls in the
(21:57):
air and we're good. But then I'm like.
Actually, I don't want to have 20 balls in the air.
I would like you to take a couple.
You take a couple. We're good.
And I'm no longer ashamed of like really just like asking for
help. It's just a beautiful, beautiful
thing. Yeah.
Yeah, and I. Think the truth is that people
want to step up for us, right? Like especially when you have
been the one who's been there for a bunch of people, like
(22:19):
people want to have the opportunity to pay that back.
But again, so many of us kind ofget in our own way and kind of
build these stories around ourselves where we don't even
want to ask for it. So I think it is actually a very
loving act to allow people to show up for you in the same way
as you've shown up for them. You give some great examples.
I love this. OK, Because we are used to
saying to somebody, like, let's say somebody is going through a
(22:42):
time of grief or they're just having a heart, hey, who knows?
Whatever it is, it's just like you can see that your sister
needs some help, right? And they're going through like,
you want to be there for them. And too commonly we'll be like,
how can I help you? I'm here to help.
How can I help? And you're like, that's not the
right question. That's not the right approach
because I don't know even know where to start.
(23:03):
Like if I'm feeling overwhelmed that something's going, you
know, haywire in my life, I'm not even up to even answering
that question because I'm just like, no, I can't give you any
assistance on how to help me. So you give you give some really
great examples of this in the book around.
Like, I love that example you give on this woman who sent a
(23:23):
text to her friend and said, I can't remember what it was that
she was going through, but it was like, OK, I can number one,
I can leave a meal on your doorstep and go and go away.
OK #2 I could pick up your kids from school and take them for
ice cream #3 I can, I can pray for you, which I am doing
anyways. And, and then don't worry and #4
(23:47):
none of the above. Like I love you, Eddie.
Like you don't need to respond. And I just like giving those
very tangible ways that you can and you want to help.
And then that person would like to say #2 please.
And number all of the above. Does it matter right?
Yeah, I think that that's so important to be able to give
people tangible things that likeyou could offer them because we
(24:10):
often, and I think it is well meaning, like there are well
intentions, like, oh, let me know if you need anything,
right? Like I think many of us do want
to be there if we know there's something we can do.
But like you said, when people are overwhelmed, when they're
grieving, when you know they arestruggling with their mental
health, they often don't know where to start.
Like they often feel overwhelmedby just making another decision.
(24:31):
And so if you know this person well enough to be able to kind
of intuit what might they need right now.
So is it likely they're not kindof feeding themselves?
Like, can you go do some groceryshopping or can you send over,
you know, some of their food? If you know they are likely not
like taking care of laundry and those kinds of things, can you
offer to go over and wash a couple of loads of laundry or go
(24:52):
and do some drinks? Something that would help SO.
Much more things. Exactly, exactly, exactly.
And again, of course, this in this in means that you have a
close enough relationship where somebody would like let you into
their house and do their laundryright?
But but if you do but even but. Even like for instance, like
let's say you're not even that close to that.
Let's just say you're like, OK, I can come and help clean your
(25:13):
house or I can hire, I can hire a cleaning company.
My cleaner instead of cleaning my house this week, they'll come
and clean your house. Like that is like a big, huge
gift That is like, you know, right, I really like talking
about. Things I can take take off of
the list for people. Right, I remember when my twin
brother died and I you don't even you don't even know where
to start. But one of my closest friends,
(25:35):
like what an Angel on earth. And she says she she called me
and she said, Robin, can I help you pick the hymns for the
service? I'm thinking, I didn't even
think about that. I mean, that's not on my To Do
List, but obviously it has to get done right.
I was like, yes, like what an incredible gift.
(25:58):
And what do you think happened? She chose hims that we grew up
listening to in church. Like it's just like, what are
the chances? Well, I mean, that's a gift.
Like just it was invaluable. But I just, I'll never forget
about that very real, tangible example of something that just
was like a weight lifted off, like amongst all that heaviness.
So beyond doing group therapy, if people don't have access to
(26:22):
to this in their lives or they just really don't have a sense
of community or sisterhood in their lives, like how in an
everyday setting, like, how are you encouraging or tools that
people can, like, take into their own lives to actually
cultivate even just one new friendship or one new connection
that would bring right bring that into their lives?
(26:45):
Yeah. What ideas do you have for that
Doctor Joy? So I think, Robin, that there
are often people in the backgrounds of our lives who
with a little bit of effort could move to the foreground,
right? So maybe there is a mom that you
see in the carpool line and y'all kind of exchanged
pleasantries, but it doesn't go any further.
Or maybe you sit next to somebody in your Pilates class
(27:05):
and you know, again, you smile and say hi, but like after
you're done, everybody goes backto their cars.
What would it be like for you tosay, hey, would you like to grab
a smoothie after Pilates? Or hey, would you like to get
breakfast after we drop the kidsoff?
And I think that that's hard forpeople because nobody wants to
be rejected, right? Like, what if they say no?
What if they think I'm weird? You know, and all of that is
(27:26):
possible, but this is the this is the case of if there is no
risk, there is no reward. And so, you know, kind of
pulling up your big girl pants and just putting yourself out
there and saying, hey, would youlike to do this thing?
And I think it's also really important to make sure that you
keep your expectations realistic.
So this could be somebody who becomes a lifelong friend or it
(27:47):
could just be a nice smoothie, right?
And so just go into it with being open and not expecting
that this is going to be your new BFF.
I really like that I was, I'm talking to Kirsten, my best
friend about this. We're like, OK, we're talking
about OK, last five years, our new friends, right.
And how did these come about? Because I, I wanted to uncover
that for her too. She lives in Scotland, I live in
(28:08):
Victoria, BC I mean, we're on different sides of the planet,
but I'm just like, OK, so how did and she was talking about
how she used to go into this place where it was like house
design place and the owner of the store and her because
connected and just like we're very, very friendly and like
just like she felt like good vibe right with this woman.
And you know, maybe by the thirdor fourth time going in the
(28:31):
store, she she was like, do you want to go for a coffee one day?
And the old woman's like, yes, and now they meet almost on a
weekly basis. They are just such good friends.
So great example of like this issomebody that you just that's an
example, right. And I was thinking about when a
women's store that I that I go to for my clothing, the owner
(28:54):
same. I mean, I just like fell in love
with her from the beginning whenI met her and I would and I said
to her, I was like, Rebecca, canwe please be friends?
You know, what do I have to lose?
I still love your clothes. If you say no, you I'm still
going to shop here. But anyway, yes, Robin, I really
want to be your friend and she and I are like really close
friends. So what do you have to lose,
(29:16):
right? Yeah, you don't have anything to
lose. You already didn't have this
friendship. So if she says no, then you
still don't have the friendship,right.
And I think that there's there'sa saying that a lot of people
use here called shoot your shot,right?
So it's the idea that you're like, oh, I really like this
person's vibe like you mentioned, right?
Like you sometimes can just telllike I think we would be really
good friends or at least enjoy each other's company, right.
(29:38):
And so there's nothing wrong with shooting your shot in a
friendship way. I think we think about it
romantically, right? Like you see somebody that's
attractive, in fact, if you wantto slide them your number, but
you can also do that with peoplethat you think would be fun
company, even platonically. So I think more of us should
take those risks when we feel like there's somebody who has
like a kindred spirit and somebody we would enjoy spending
(29:59):
some time with, just letting them know and seeing if there's
an opportunity to grow a friendship.
Right. And I also think Doctor Joy in
your book, you just like you just reinforce more around, and
you just said it around the factthat there could be even a
friendship or something in the foreground that you can become
closer to just by making the time reaching out.
(30:22):
And when you are with that person, it is with more
intentionality, like you're likean acquaintance or even a friend
that you want to be closer to. It's like holding space for that
person, giving them that your undivided attention, right, just
being more in service to that friendship and right and seeing
how how that will that can help you in in return.
(30:43):
I I know that's how it works. Exactly.
Where, what, what, how can people work more from you and
work work more with you and learn more from you?
Like, tell us what you're up to these days, how people can
follow you. Yeah, so as you mentioned, I
would love for more people to read Sisterhood Heels because I
think that they are very timely conversations.
(31:04):
I think I again love that you have created space of this
conversation. And I want more of us to really
put more credence on the female friendships and the
relationships that we have platonically with the women in
our lives. So you can go to
sisterhoodheels.com and learn more about the book.
You can take a quiz to find out who you are in your friends
circle because I think that that's really important to think
(31:25):
about the role that we play in our friends circle so that I
think it's a fun, a fun opportunity.
And then you can listen to more of the conversations that I
mentioned before on the Therapy for Black Girls podcast.
So if you go to therapyforblackgirls.com, you'll
be able to listen to the podcast, but also we have a
therapist directory for people who want to get connected to
therapists in their area, thoughthere are lots of opportunities
(31:47):
to get connected on our website as well.
I think that's, I think that's wonderful.
I think that's, that's also something you've really brought
to your community, which is not,that's a resource that so many
people can tap into is finding atherapist in their area, because
I mean, I love therapy. And if you can have access to it
where you live, obviously that's, that's, that's great.
Well, I want to thank you, Doctor Joy, for the tremendous
(32:10):
work you're doing. I mean, it means it means a lot.
And I loved your book and I thank you so much for your time
today. I really appreciate it.
Thank you Robin, it was fun to chat with you.
I always, we always close our podcast with a blessing, and the
blessing is based on your work and what I've learned from you
this week. So may we heal together through
(32:33):
our sisterhood. Our friendships give us a safe
space to be seen, heard, and held.
Not to mention so much joy. I've just had so much joy with
my friendships, that's for sure.May we be more vulnerable with
people we feel safe around. By sharing ourselves and the
truths about who we are and our experiences, we can form
(32:55):
authentic connections and cultivate new friendships.
And may we use sisterhood to become the best possible
versions of ourselves. And I think our friendships
really enable us to do that, to grow and be the best versions of
ourselves. So thank you, Doctor Joy.
Thank you, Robin. Beautiful blessing.
Thank you so much for being herewith us.
(33:17):
Let's talk Love is brought to you by Real Love Ready and
hosted by Robin Ducharme. If you'd like to keep learning
with us, visit realloveready.comfor more resources and tools to
boost your relational skills andget better at love.
If this podcast has resonated with you, it would mean the
world to us if you could take just 30 seconds to do these
three things. Follow or subscribe.
(33:39):
Never miss an episode by hittingthe follow or subscribe button
wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether it's Apple
Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite app.
This makes sure new episodes show up automatically for you,
and it helps us get more visibility so more people can
find our show. Leave a rating and review.
Your feedback means everything to us.
(34:00):
By leaving a five star rating and a thoughtful review, you're
not only showing your support but also helping others discover
the podcast. Share an episode that really
spoke to you with someone in your life.
Whether it's a friend, partner or family member, your
recommendation could just be what they need to hear.
We at Real Love Ready acknowledge and express
gratitude for the Coach Salish people, the stewards of the land
(34:23):
on which we work and play, and encourage you to take a moment
to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have
stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live
on as well. Many blessings and much love.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!