October 30, 2025 • 43 mins
What does it take to create secure, lasting love?
In this episode of Let’s Talk Love, Robin sits down with therapist, author, and attachment expert Julie Menanno to explore how we can create relationships that feel safe, connected, and enduring. Rather than focusing on the idea of a “healthy relationship,” Julie invites us to consider what it means to build a secure partnership—one rooted in emotional safety, empathy, and mutual understanding.
Drawing from her powerful book Secure Love, Julie shares how recognizing our own and our partner’s core emotional needs and attachment styles can transform the way we communicate, navigate conflict, and repair ruptures. Her approach reminds us that love thrives not in perfection, but in the consistent willingness to see, hear, and respond to one another with care.
Through her platform The Secure Relationship, Julie’s work reaches millions, helping people understand that love and connection are not luxuries—they are essential human needs. This conversation offers practical wisdom and heartfelt insight for anyone seeking to deepen intimacy, build trust, and experience the grounded joy of secure love.
We want to hear from you! Please send us your anonymous questions for the Podcast as well as our weekly IG Live Ask The Experts Q&A. https://realloveready.com/submitaquestion
Links:https://www.thesecurerelationship.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Today I had the joy of speaking with and learning from couples
therapist, author, and educator,Julie Manano.
Julie helps couples create lasting, loving attachment, what
she calls secure love. She helps people understand
attachment, break negative cycles, and build secure,
lasting relationships. In an increasingly disconnected
(00:22):
world, learning how to truly connect, communicate, feel seen
in love matters now more than ever.
Enjoy. Welcome to Let's Talk Love, the
podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert
insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted
(00:43):
voices in love and relationships, and they're here
for you with tools, information,and friendly advice to help you
expand the ways you love, relate, and communicate.
We tackle the big questions, notshying away from the complex,
the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships.
I'm your host, Robin Ducharne. Now let's talk love.
(01:11):
Hello everyone, and welcome to Let's Talk LOVE today.
I, I'm so excited about this conversation.
Julie, I've got Julie Manano. You are a trailblazing
therapist, author, educator, andyou're gonna, we're gonna be
talking today about attachment theory and actually your book,
which Julie, I so enjoyed learning from you, Secure Love.
(01:31):
Glad. Yes, thank you.
I'm glad. So glad to help.
This is an incredible, incredible book.
Well, I appreciate you saying that.
That makes it all worth it. Yeah, I am.
Obviously I talked to a lot of therapists and coaches and we
talk about love and relationships all the time.
And I, what I so appreciate, Julie, is you know, your, your
(01:53):
work is based on emotional focustherapy, right?
And so it's like getting to the root of what really is like our
human need for security in our relationships.
And I don't think we're really talking.
I mean, you've got a million followers, so there's a lot of
people that are following your work that are learning from you.
(02:13):
But I really don't think that the majority of people really
understand how important it is to for it to have the security
in our relationships. Absolutely.
It isn't, you know, and even if they do kind of understand that
conceptually, they don't really know what is, what are the
moving parts to that, you know, what is that operationally?
That's why I love attachment theory.
(02:34):
I think it's the closest sciencehas come to really explaining in
detail and in workable parts howrelationships thrive and how
they fail. And when we can kind of start
seeing it through that lens, it gives us a much clearer picture
of what we need to do to to start shifting things.
Exactly. And so, Julie, in your book,
you, you say that, you know, youwrote it in the way that you
(02:57):
would lead people, lead couples through this journey, right?
Because it is a journey. It's this is not just about the
towels being left on the floor or that, you know, somebody
coming home late from work and just like just wanted to relax
rather than help out with the kids or like those this
conflicts that seem to repeat, right?
It's not about about just necessarily the argument itself.
(03:20):
It's about what's underneath ourhuman needs, understanding our
attachment. Can you, can you walk us through
like in your practice when you're working with people, how
are you, how you approach this so differently than other
therapists? Sure.
And and then, you know, what I'mgoing to describe is, is, as you
mentioned, emotionally focused therapy for couples, which is
(03:42):
very, you know, those of us who practice it do so pretty
consistently. As far as like what the process
looks like, it's a pretty clear set of directions, for lack of a
better word. So what we do is, is we get the
couple in and we first help themunderstand.
Understand what like give me an example of a fight, right?
Give me an example of a fight that you just had about towels
(04:03):
on the floor or where to put thekeys or a parenting issue.
And what we're going to quickly realize is that fight keeps
happening over and over and overagain.
The same fight it regardless of what the content is, because
we're really working with unmet attachment needs underneath the
surface. We're working with this really
(04:24):
foundational piece of relationships, which is what
needs to happen. What needs need to be met for
partners to feel safe and close to each other.
And they need to be met consistently in the overall
environment of the relationship as a kind of a felt sense.
And they need to be met in moment to moment interactions.
And if they go unmet in these interactions, it's probably
(04:47):
going to create a rupture. And then we need to repair that
rupture. And if it what happens is as
couples get in these fights and early on in the relationship,
they're fine. They love each other and they're
compatible and all these wonderful things that never stop
being true, right? And but what happens is, is that
they start having these fights and then the unmet attachment
needs start accumulating becausethey don't know how to avoid
(05:10):
them in the way they're, they'recommunicating around these
topics and they don't know how to repair them.
And so if you're in an argument with your partner and you're
just, I mean, you've been datingfor five months, you're having a
great time, it's wonderful. And then BAM, some conflict
comes. And then all the sudden now
we're getting into some real feelings and a partner isn't
(05:31):
validating those feelings. And instead of really hearing
you, they're saying, well, you should see it differently.
Or well, I'm not so bad. Or well, maybe you should just
break up with me. Or, you know, this is your
because of your childhood. And and So what that is, is it's
emotional invalidation. That's just one unmet need,
right? Well, what happens when someone
feels emotionally invalidated, especially if they're sensitive
(05:53):
to it because of the environmentthey grew up in?
They're going to get upset, thenthey're going to protest back.
And then, you know, the other person's going to not know what
to do with that protest. They're going to feel
overwhelmed. They're going to now have unmet
attachment needs around that. I'm not being heard.
I'm not being understood. I'm not being appreciated here.
Because then in their mind, they're just trying to make
everything better, right? And so then they get locked into
(06:16):
these patterns and the pattern that I just described, protest,
defense, counter blame, more protest, upset, blame,
deflection, getting logical, fighting about, you know, trying
to convince each other and then ultimately kind of bam, shut
down. Now we're distant from each
other till we come back. But that pattern will just keep
(06:37):
going. Usually couples will have one or
two predominant cycles. So this is good because now we
don't have to go through every single content and cure.
How are you going to divide labor over the towels?
Like, I want partners to get to that point, but the way we're
going to get to that point is byfiguring out how to get them
(06:58):
speaking to each other safely. So attachment needs are being
met. I'm being heard, I'm being
understood, I'm being validated.I'm not just having my flaws
presented to me without talking about what I'm getting right.
I'm, you know, not having to worry that because I'm getting
it wrong, you're just going to abandon me or see me as in a
complete failure. Right.
(07:19):
There's a few more. There's not that many attachment
needs. They're very like core of human,
you know, the human existence kind of thing called, you know,
we all need to feel safe and close to our partner and they're
pretty consistent ways to get there from human to human.
And so anyway, once we can startaddressing that, that's the
root. That's the root of the problem,
is what is getting in the way when you guys interact and
(07:40):
communicate of feeling safe and close.
Because if enough is getting in the way, it's going to, one, get
in the way of you being able to resolve your problems and then
you'll just indefinitely fight over the same thing.
And then two, it's going to get in the way of your feeling close
to each other and connection. Yes.
But what I'm going to do to kindof circle all this back is I'm
going to 1st help the couple seethis, right?
(08:02):
Just look, this is the pattern. This is the enemy.
You guys aren't enemies, OK? I think to Julie, that is so
hard to we all know this, right?You love this person so much,
but then you get into a disagreement or a conflict where
you're just feeling like, I remember the last time I had a
conflict with my partner and I just was like, you're not
(08:22):
hearing me, you're not seeing me.
I need you to, I'm not using theword validate, which OK, now
I've got the tools I've got, butI'm like, I, I just need you to
understand, you know, you're think, I know you're not the
enemy, but holy shit, like you're not getting it right.
So it's just remembering it's you say the enemy is a negative
cycle. It's not your partner as much as
(08:42):
you're just, you're trying to just get to the same place.
It's so we have to remember yourpartner is not the enemy.
It's the negative cycle, right? Yes, it's how your partner is
trying to communicate with you about their unmet needs and
emotional needs for safe, you know, needs for emotional safety
and their communication there ways that they're trying to
(09:04):
reach you certainly can be the enemy.
You know how they're trying to reach you and how they're trying
to regulate their own emotions. Absolutely.
But that's not the person behindthe behavior.
So if we can get that behavior shifted, now we're going to get
down to that person that you fell in love with.
And the same is true in reverse.And then we have, you know, we
(09:25):
also have self work to do, right?
Because it's not just how are wecommunicating with each other,
it's what's the unresolved stuffwithin each of us that's
contributing to the way that we're communicating with each
other. So we also have to get that
stuff stabilized. So when it comes to our
attachment needs, I know that I'm an anxious, I'm, I'm
(09:46):
anxiously attached, but I would say that I, I'm, you know, I'm,
I'm, I say that because I know how I was in my childhood and I,
I believe I'm recognizing prettywell what my, my, my maladaptive
behaviors were in the past. So I would say I'm, I'm secure.
I'm a very pretty secure person.I don't know if we ever outgrow
(10:06):
our attachment, but I think and my partner we.
We can heal, yes. Yes, my, my partner, you know,
he admits that he's avoidant. It's not even an admission.
It's like he knows he's because of his experiences, he's he's
sways more towards avoidant. So in the first part of the
book, Julie, you're helping people really recognize what
your core needs are based on what you want, what we all
(10:27):
experience, what we experienced in our childhood.
Is that the way to explain it? You know, 99% of the time this
stuff is going to go back to childhood there.
You know, what's going to happenis you're going to sort of your,
your relationship template is going to be set when you're, you
know, very a concentrated relationship as a child and
parent, you know, typically and your brain is just forming
(10:51):
rapidly. Your, your neural Rep pathways
are just forming rapidly. This is going to kind of get
wired into you. Don't worry, that's not a death
sentence. You can unwire or you can
unwire, but you can replace it with new wiring.
And then, you know, of course, as you grow, you can have
societal influences coming in. And So what happens is, is that
the attach, your attachment style is defined by the nature
(11:14):
of your fears and relationships,plus the way you manage those
fears. And so you're going to develop
patterns around that early on. Now then you get into adult
relationships that are, you know, problematic also, and you
don't know how to you and the partner don't know how to work
through that, Then your style ismost likely going to be
(11:35):
reinforced. So those relationships chips
aren't aren't going to make anything better at the very
least and will worsen them. Worst case scenario, you'll feel
worse. You'll become more insecure
because now you have more reasonto feel insecure.
So what we want to do is identify what our core
attachment needs are based on our childhood.
(11:56):
Is that right? That's the first thing we would.
Have and then we need to go backand figure out what went unmet,
what needs went unmet most of the time and how did we learn to
cope with those unmet needs and how did we learn to manage
connection based on those needs not being met.
So how are we managing these fears and how are we reaching
for connection? And that is going to have a lot
(12:19):
to do with the nature what needswere going unmet most of the
time and why you had to learn you to someone with an avoidant
attachment, their emotional needs were not being met right
very early on. And So what happens is they just
had to kind of without even thinking about it, learn to not
have needs. Like if I don't have needs, I
(12:41):
won't get hurt, I won't get let down, I won't get ignored, I
won't get shamed, I won't get punished.
So better not have them. Better find other ways to feel
connected. I'm going to be really
successful. So I get approval.
Approval feels like it's better than no connection.
You know, it's not real emotional, let's get to know
each other kind of a thing. But it's at least a positive
(13:01):
reflection. So a lot of people with
avoidant, they're going to find activities to help them feel
successful as a way to, you know, avoid the pain of their
difficulty connection to whatever degree that is.
And so we have to figure out like, why did you have to learn
to avoid your feelings? What was that all about?
(13:21):
Right. And and so now we got to get
some words to that. We got to get some words to
these fears. Nobody ever helped you
understand this. Nobody ever saw you emotionally.
And so now we have to figure outsome new ways for you to deal
with, you know, first of all, weneed to get you emotionally
engaged because you did not learn how you couldn't.
(13:42):
It wasn't safe, so your body just did what it was supposed to
do. Stay safe in this environment.
Well, now you're in this relationship with this partner
who has all these needs. You don't know what to do
because you don't even know whatto do with your own needs.
So I'm going to help you figure out how to get to your own needs
and how to manage them and talk about them and help them and be
with them. And that's going to help you
(14:02):
connect with you and have more to share.
And it's also going to help you know how to show up for your
partner's needs, because you cannot do that until you know
your own. Right.
Wow. And feelings, not just needs
feelings, it needs lead to feelings.
OK. So when needs are met, we feel
good and when needs are unmet, we feel bad, generally speaking.
(14:24):
So when I say unmet needs, I'm also kind of attached to that is
the emotional pain that stems from unmet needs and the
emotional warmth and safety and goodness that stems from that
needs. Right.
So if we can get partners meeting, then they start to feel
good and then they start to behave better.
And the more they behave better,the more they meet each other's
(14:45):
needs and the more the needs aremet, the And so it all just
starts flowing and, you know, feeding off of itself.
And what I've learned and you doreinforce in your book is just,
I mean, it just, it takes like shifts, it takes practice.
You're not going to be amazing at this from the beginning,
right? But the more you are becoming
more attuned to how you're feeling and being able to
(15:06):
communicate that in a way that'slike, I think that's one of the
hardest things. I, I find it's like, 'cause I
want to be, I want to be careful.
I want to be conscious of the words I'm using.
Yeah, without blame, without andand trying to you know, you say
like it's it's not just all about the I statements and using
it's like, how do you get way into what your needs are, right.
That is my biggest strength right there.
(15:28):
If you were going to name my what I have to offer more than
anything else, it's how to get in there and figure out what is
there to begin with. Because you're right, there's no
amount of words that you can useto talk about something you
don't know about. You can try and, and it's better
than not trying. And, and sometimes in fight
trying to formulate the words, you start to figure it out.
(15:50):
I don't want to believe anybody not trying.
It's it's better to to try, as I've said 1000 Times Now, but
it's we, we have to dive in there and figure out what's
going on to begin with. That's why I do the podcast
right there because it's one thing to give people the
instruction manual, but I work with a real couple for 20
sessions. I'm on season 2 right now and
(16:11):
I'm doing that work. I am helping them and the
audience learn how to really getin there and figure out what's
going on. And then we get we get the words
to share. Right.
What's happening in there Exactly.
Yeah. So you say as an anxious
partner, you have a desperate need for love and reassurance.
(16:33):
Yes. Right.
And so it comes to like I, I know one of my core needs is
prioritization. I want to feel like I am a
priority. I didn't realize that that, you
know, it's all this work I've been doing that you realize, OK.
And I and I want to feel validated, right?
And so it's like good for me. Like once you figure that out
(16:56):
for yourself, you can communicate that to your
partner, right? Like what would be ways that
like even before there's a conflict, Do you recommend that,
Julie, just to be like, OK, thisis what I've discovered about
myself, sitting down with your partner and saying, you know,
this is the way it was when I was little and this is how I,
you know, behaved then. And this is how I believe in our
partnership. This is what I need from you.
How would you best? How would you recommend you
(17:18):
communicate that to your to? Your OK so first you want you
going you're going to front loadit, which is what I just said.
You're going to talk about it when it's not being triggered,
which is this is a thing for me my whole life I felt like I was
put on the back burner and it hurt.
It was so bad and on top of the hurt I didn't have words for the
hurt. Nobody was there to help me with
the hurt. I mean wouldn't it have been
(17:39):
nice if you could go to your momand say mom, I don't feel
important right now and your momwould say Oh my gosh OK tell me
more. Well, let's figure out what we
can do to help you feel more important.
Or let me just comfort you. Whatever.
My whole life, I long to feel like #1 and I'm inviting you in
to help me with that because I chose you to be the one to help
me with that. And I want you to.
Choose. That's good.
(18:00):
Relationship. That's good, yeah.
And I want you to feel successful.
And here's a way to do it. Wouldn't it be great if you
know? And so you're not phrasing it as
you don't do enough. And here's this box I need
checked. You're like feeding them you
right? And it opens up their attachment
giving system. And so from there, now we have
(18:22):
this had this conversation to kind of set the stage like this
is this is what I want to work on.
OK, so now we're going to assumeyour partner is going to fail
you there because that's what wedo.
We fail each other and we have ruptures, right?
We're humans. Yeah.
Yeah, your partner's some at some point you're going to feel
de prioritized whether it's their failing or just something
(18:42):
in you that got triggered it. And so that's when you go when
you say look, remember we talkedabout this, right?
And so this is kind of one of those moments, I'm not blaming
you didn't do anything wrong, but this is kind of one of those
moments where I get the message and you know, I know it.
This topic is hard for us. It's hard to talk about where we
kind of let each other down, butbecause that hasn't always gone
(19:04):
well in the past. But, you know, if I don't bring
it up, then I'm going to feel alone with it.
And hopefully they're open to that and they're able to stay
with you because I will have taught them that that's what I
do. And they are able to kind of
lean in and not get defensive and not go, well, I wasn't
trying to or, you know, I didn'tmean to, or you're just seeing
(19:26):
it wrong or I don't want to be responsible for your childhood
wounds, right? So instead they're able to kind
of lean in and go, OK, tell me more.
All right. So when I, you know, said I was
going to call and I didn't, thattook you to the worst place
possible, which is, Oh my God, I'm not being prioritized.
No wonder you felt bad. I get that.
And I want to help protect you from that in the future.
(19:49):
So here's, you know, I'm willingto, to shift for you and it's
not always that simple. Sometimes it's not.
I can just you can push a buttonand I can meet that need because
I also have my own stuff going on.
Sometimes, you know, there are times when I'm going to be so
focused on the project and part of what helps me feel OK is
knowing that I'm on top of this stuff.
(20:10):
So how can we work together here?
We, we both know it's kind of like you have a need for
reassurance that you're a priority right over here.
And then they have a need. To not have to constantly put
whatever's going on with them onthe side to, to not just, you
(20:30):
know, be a robot or whatever. Right.
Do you understand what I'm saying here?
Yeah. And so we have both of those
needs. If we lean too heavily into one
and it's always about your need for reassurance, that's going to
be a problem. If we lean too heavy into the
other, which is they should never have to come your way and
move in toward you, then we haveanother problem.
(20:51):
So it's kind of like we're always balancing the this place
that has this like perfect tension and we just have to
figure out how to talk about it in a way that first doesn't make
it worse. We're hearing each other, we're
understanding each other. And then too, I've seen some
over and over and over again just getting couples speaking to
each other in this way and really leading with
(21:12):
vulnerability and sometimes healthy assertion that the
problems just start to sort of dissolve on their own.
You know, and then you start to get rid of all these little
things. It's like your work.
There might be, if your partner doesn't call you back, you just
have this felt reassurance that you're the priority.
Because you know, if you reach to them, they're going to lean
(21:32):
in and talk to you about it. So you don't need to anymore.
Or they're sitting there doing their work and they remember,
oh, this is one of those momentswhere you know, yes, I'm really
involved in this project, but I know my partner, I, I, I want to
help protect them from, from feeling like not a priority,
not, oh, they're going to be madat me and I got better.
I better reach out. It's, I want to help my partner
(21:54):
protect them from this wounded place because I love them.
And then to make even it more trickier, you're also
responsible for healing some of those wounds and doing yourself
work. So lots going on there.
What's going on there? And if you've got a partner that
is willing to do, is willing to do the work, you know it, it can
work out beautifully. Like really you can grow
(22:16):
together. This is yes, with the last
conflict that we had, we, we couldn't get out of the negative
cycle as much as we tried. Like we were, we were really
working it, Julie, I'm telling you, just like, OK, let's come
at it this way or this way and like take a take a day break,
OK, and then come back to it. But we ended up having a session
with a, with a couple of therapists.
Thank goodness, because he was able to be that middle person to
(22:38):
walk us through and come to the core need that we were both we
we were having a hard time communicating to each other and
no, and now we know right beautiful.
So this is where conflict. You know, I'm not as much as
it's so painful sometimes I realize that if you're with a
partner that is willing to do itwith you, it's like you can come
out knowing each other better and and he and healing.
(23:01):
I mean, really, that's the thing, right?
Absolutely, absolutely. It's just, you know, you're
getting to know yourself and you're getting to know each
other. And from that you're learning
better communication skills. And then as you learn the better
skills, you get to know each other better because part of the
skills are being vulnerable. And so again, it just all starts
(23:22):
to feed on itself. And I love that you were both in
that and willing and even even just trying to get out of the
cycle is a new cycle. Right.
Yes. Yeah.
And I think that's what people don't recognize is even though
even failed attempts are better than no attempt, that is a
(23:42):
movement in another direction. I always tell people, look, if
you're doing anything new at thebeginning of this work, that's
growth. At least we're getting you
unstuck. We'll we'll fine tune it as we
go, but at least we're getting you unstuck from the rigidity of
the old pattern. Yes, absolutely.
Can you talk more about vulnerability?
You mentioned it, Julie, becausethere's a difference between
(24:05):
complaining, you know, over likewhat is like, what would you
define as like true vulnerability, like how right,
because and how important it is.OK, so I'll give an example.
You left the keys out again. You know how anxious that makes
me. You know how important it is for
me to keep the house organized? Like, why won't you just listen?
(24:25):
It hurts my feelings. It makes me sad when you don't
listen. You know that's not so much
vulnerability, right? I mean, we're kind of touching
on talking about some feelings, but you're not really
invulnerable. Those words are protest words.
You're, you're trying to motivate your partner to change
rather than really digging in and sharing yourself with them
(24:45):
as a way to open them up to wanting to help you.
And so the vulnerable thing to say there, and this does take
some skill. Remember, we have to be able to
figure out what the vulnerability is to begin with.
The vulnerability is, listen, I know you have your, your own
stuff going on 1st you want to kind of lean into them, create
some safety. I know you're not just
purposefully coming in and throwing the keys down like I, I
(25:07):
know that isn't where your heartis, right?
But what happens for me is I'm, you know, really working hard to
keep, keep on top of things. I mean, it, it helps me feel
safe inside when I've got all these things going on just to
know, you know, the keys, these are taken care of and I don't
have that one thing to pick up. But you know what?
What's really important to me right now is it's just to know
(25:29):
you care about that. Because what's worse than not
having the keys put away is feeling like maybe you don't see
that. Maybe you don't care.
And then I just feel all alone with it.
So if nothing else, can you justhelp me know right now that you
understand where I'm coming fromand that I'm not just trying to
randomly attack you, that this actually has some meaning for
(25:51):
me. And that is, I mean, you can
probably feel your heart open tothat just as I speak those words
like it, it opens people. And especially if they're, you
know, doing the work to, to helpthemselves get open in it, it
invites them in to help. And your partner really is far
more likely to remember the keyswhen they see that and remember
(26:14):
to put them away when they see those keys and they, and they
say instead of saying them to themselves, well, I don't want
them to be mad or, or just kind of not really noticing they're
able to kind of remember that felt experience of, well, I
don't want my partner to feel alone.
You know, I don't like to feel alone and things.
So that that's just one example of the difference between the
two. One is just truly sharing who
(26:36):
you are, and the other one is really just trying to motivate
them to change. And if it is going to change, it
is going to come from empathy, not fear.
I mean, it's going to come from.Empathy, not fear.
Yes, and there is some truth to,you know, sometimes if if you're
saying, look, we have to go to therapy or I'm not going to stay
(26:56):
in this relationship. I mean there's fear involved
there, but it's not sustainable,right?
Let me say this sustainable change only comes from empathy
in really in close relationships.
I mean, that's what they're meant to be, right?
Right. I like how.
Partner inspiring empathy And how is the other partner
(27:17):
responding to empathy? That's really the crux of it.
Right. That was, that's something that
in this last flight we had, it was like, that's what I was
needing and I didn't. I was, I needed empathy.
And now my partner knows that, you know, it's like, OK, and
he's like, OK, but because he's avoidant and there there was a
lot of stuffing down his feelings or maybe not feeling
(27:37):
them at all. He's like, I have to learn that
this is a skill that I can learn.
And I'm like, OK, like that's it's amazing, really.
Right. Like, wow.
You're lucky he's that's great. I mean.
I'm extremely lucky. I know this, I know this.
I do. You say I don't.
Yeah. I mean, that's beautiful.
(27:57):
You can learn to be empathetic, right, Julie?
We all. Are already it's just we have
it's how much fear is blocking it.
That's the fear is blocking our empathy.
How? Much fear is blocking it and how
much of your inability to communicate it is blocking it.
But I've, I've never worked withanyone that I was able to, you
know, let me just say in that example that I shared where the
(28:21):
partners kind of feeling alone, unheard, misunderstood.
I mean, there's no human that you can't help figure out.
I in life have felt misunderstood.
It felt bad. I in life have felt alone or
ignored in something. It felt bad.
When you can get them into that,there's all you need for
empathy. I know what alone feels like.
(28:44):
It's just that if that person isso cut off from their own
experience, it's impossible. They're, they're not able to
feel them. They're definitely not going to
be able to feel you. Yeah, Yeah, you say unless.
So when it comes to vulnerability, unless they
involve stepping out of one's comfort zone for the greater
good, they're venting, not beingvulnerable.
(29:07):
So it's stepping out of your stepping out of your own comfort
zone for the greater good. I've never heard that said
before. It's very, that's profound,
really. Wow.
Yeah. What does that mean to you?
I guess it means, I mean the, when you think about the greater
good, this isn't just for me. I'm not, I'm not saying this for
(29:28):
my own, for just my own well-being.
I'm, I'm doing this for us like this is our bridge.
I really want to meet you here, right?
And it's for us, it's for the highest good, it's for our
relationship, right? So that's true.
So true. I like, I like to say it like
this too, like when I have someone do something in a
(29:48):
relationship, whether it's be vulnerable or if they're talking
about, well, I'm going to protest.
It's the only way it can be heard, you know, then I'm going
to invite them to, OK, let's just talk about the impact,
right? What's the impact on you?
What's the impact on your partner and what's the impact on
your relationship? And if someone is not doing
things that are working in theirrelationship, it's guaranteed
(30:10):
that that's out of balance. Some people won't speak up
because they don't want to harm the relationship.
They'll leave me if I speak up. OK, so they're prioritizing the
relationship over self. That's yes, some people are
going to protest because there'sthat they just need to get the
need met urgently. I just I'm going to protest
(30:33):
because I need it met yesterday,right.
So now what they're doing is they're prioritizing themselves
over their partners experience. Maybe they're saying mean things
to their partner. Maybe they're just not seeing
what their partner is getting right or whatever it is and now
their partner is suffering. And then, you know, sometimes we
have people who don't want to hurt their partners feelings.
(30:56):
So they're not going to they're going to not bring things up.
I don't want to hurt their feelings.
I don't want to make them sad. I won't like how I feel if I do
that. So now they're prioritizing
their partners needs over their own needs.
So we, we just need to, like yousaid, the greater good is when
all those three things align. I'm doing what's best for me so
I can feel a good about the way I'm communicating.
(31:16):
I'm doing what's best for my partner because I'm not, you
know, just randomly triggering them or trying to make them feel
shameful. And I'm doing what's best for
the relationship because that's what health does is it helps
relationships become more healthy.
Right. And you know, you, you start the
book that way, Julie, on talkingabout, you know, we, we talk
(31:37):
about what a healthy relationship is, but what we
want to do is reframe that as a secure relationship, a secure
partnership. So like, what does that look
like? Can we just look at, can we just
like talk about what, what does the secure relationship look
like so we can understand the difference?
Yeah. Let's go back to your situation
(31:58):
where you wanted to feel prioritized, right, OK.
So I think. Validated was more anything but
yes, yeah. OK, so let's do validated then.
So you, you know, overall in thebig picture of the relationship,
you need to know that my partner, generally speaking,
really does understand and make space for my emotions.
(32:20):
If I go to them, they're going to be there for me, right?
The reason I can reasonably assume they're going to be
there, they're going to show up,they're going to want to
understand and they're going to say, hey, that makes sense to
me. OK, so I kind of have this
knowledge, this felt sense. Now we go to a moment where
there's a rupture where your partner is not validating you.
They're they're stepping out of their norm because they're
(32:42):
triggered or they've got whatever they've got going on.
They're busy, they're tired. I mean, we're always having good
reasons to not be our best selves.
So they, you know, they don't validate you.
They say you're just being irrational right now.
We have a rupture. And so a secure relationship,
first of all, sorry, the overallclimate that I described, that's
(33:03):
a part of security. But now we have a rupture.
And in that rupture, what security looks like is, hey,
listen, I just want to let you know, I know you're tired and
stuff, but you know how I need that.
I need emotional validation. So do you.
And I wasn't feeling it just then.
Can we do something here? Can we try this again?
Whatever it is, both partners are able to repair in a way that
(33:26):
doesn't start destructing this overall relationship.
Because if there's enough experiences of unrepaired
ruptures, the climate starts to get really bad.
And so, A, we have a healthy climate and B, we have healthy
interactions that have met attachment needs that are
consistent and repetitive and sustaining that environment,
(33:47):
right? It's like I said, you know, in
the book, you know, we look at San Diego, right?
It's got this, you know, one of the greatest climates, there's
not a lot of rain. It's just temperate.
It feels good, right? It's in, for lack of better
words, securely attached. OK.
And then we have, you know, let's say it's all of a sudden
climate change happens. And you know, every now and then
(34:09):
it's it rains in San Diego and sometimes they have big storms,
right? But but everybody in San Diego
knows they will get back to their good climate.
Nobody has to worry, right? We're going back to it.
Don't worry. Well, then we have some climate
change come along or whatever, and all of a sudden it's the the
it's just storming all the time.At some point people are going
(34:31):
to go, I don't know if I want tolive here anymore.
Like it, it rains too much here,there is going to be that
shifting point. And that's what happens with
couples is, is we start off withthis beautiful, our, our needs
are met. And then all the sudden we start
having these ruptures that aren't repaired.
And then that starts to affect the environment.
And when the environment starts to feel unsafe, we're more,
we're more sensitive. We have a hard time regulating
(34:54):
ourselves through ruptures because not only is it the
rupture feels bad in the moment and I'm afraid it's going to
keep happening. Wow, Julie, the way that you
explain that is just so good because yeah, the repair, the
repair from the rupture is, is so important.
So, so, so important. Because otherwise it's like, I
can see it. Like the way I was visualizing
(35:15):
as you were speaking, it's like your foundation is just if
you're not, if you're not makingthat foundation strong, like,
yeah, and you and you're not fixing those ruptures, like, you
know, your foundation is gettingshakier and shakier and less
stable and less stable. It makes perfect sense.
Absolutely. And and a lot of people too,
they think, well, this is so much work.
Like I don't want to have to go through every little thing.
(35:37):
And it really isn't. It's actually less work because
secure couples can tolerate ruptures.
And he'll have like what I call implied repairs where you're
able to go in yourself and you're able to say, Oh my gosh,
I know my partner's having a badday.
It's not about they're, they're just not wanting to validate me,
right? Sometimes you need to reach out,
(35:57):
but sometimes you can soothe yourself because you have the
security of the relationship to be a resource for you in that
moment. And so you don't, you know, you
don't really have to deal with every little thing, but then on
this at the same time, all the little things stop happening to
begin with. Yeah.
So we're just, can we talk abouttipping the oh, sorry, go ahead.
(36:19):
Tipping the scales. Yeah, we're just.
Constantly scales. Yeah.
Can we talk about influence versus control?
Like you say, in a healthy relationship, you mutually
influence each other naturally, right?
Because you like, I want my partner's opinions on things.
I mean, if I've got something that I'm struggling with or just
(36:39):
I just like, can you please giveme advice?
I need your help because he's sosmart and he always, he always,
always gives me the most amazingadvice.
Really. I always follow his advice
because he always give me the like or like really I'm just
like so I trust him so much in that he'll give me the best
advice versus control. OK, OK.
Well, so with your partner, you know what?
Can you give me an example of something that you just really
(37:01):
trust His advice? I would say for sure when it
comes to my kids, when it comes to parenting stuff, and I'm
like, this is what's going on right now with one of my
daughter's. And he'll be like, well, have
you looked at it this way? Have you approached it this way?
What do you, what do you think about this?
Like he's very, very good at seeing.
He could put himself in other people's shoes and be like,
(37:23):
what? Maybe she's thinking about it
this way. And I'm like, good, thank you.
It's just this other perspectivethat is seems wider sometimes,
right. Yeah.
That's beautiful. And so the way that he sort of
presents that information to youis here's some suggestions,
here's the way I see it. And you feel like he's a team
(37:46):
member, right? You feel like he's got this
wisdom. And then your brain kind of
sorts through what he's saying, kind of mixes in some of your
own stuff. And you're open to him.
You're open to his feedback. It doesn't mean you might, in
every situation, do things exactly the way he says.
That tells me because of the wayyour nervous system responds,
(38:08):
that he is in a place of influence.
He's just sharing with you. He's just trying to help you
out. He's being a good teammate.
Now, if he's in a state of control, he's in a state of
fear, which is he's going, Oh myGod, she's doing it all wrong,
you know, or she wants my help. And if I don't give her the
right answers, I'm going to be afailure as a dad.
And so and so he's going to comeat it from fear, which is you
(38:32):
got to do it differently. You got to pull it together.
You shouldn't let them trigger you like that.
That's your stuff, right? And you here's what you have to
do. So in that situation, what he's
really trying to do is get you to change so he doesn't have to
feel bad. And that's the control part.
And so your body feels the difference.
Your body will absolutely feel the difference between someone
(38:54):
trying to control and someone wanting to influence.
So when we're, you know, when we're in the driver's seat as
far as like, do we, are we trying to control someone?
Are we trying to influence someone?
I mean, the, the distinguishing factor it is how scared are you?
And if you're, if you're scared and you're acting out that
scared, you're going to be coming from just need to get you
to change. So this bad thing that I fear
(39:17):
doesn't happen. And if you're in influence,
you're going, you know what, we're safe.
It's the it's not, you know, this is how problems get
resolved. We need patience.
We need time. You kind of have a realistic
idea about, you know, you're notjust kind of scared in the
world, right? And so you're able to just kind
of put things out there, but you're not so married to the
result. Well, run a time.
(39:38):
Julie went by so fast. But I, I, I, I love your work.
I mean you, you know, there's a say my friend buddy, my new
friend buddy just says this. I just love it.
He says cream rises to the top and there's a reason why you've
got a million followers and you're doing tremendous work and
like, I guess the value is, is, is huge.
So thank you so much, Julie, forbeing with us deeply for.
(40:00):
Teaching wonderful. And sharing your wisdom with us
today, I hope everybody reads your book.
It's like, you know, it's right up there.
I mean, really hold me tight. I mean, this is the work of
Doctor Sue Johnson. It's your work.
Yeah. And I just this is getting to
the core of our human needs. And I just that's that's how we
connect is from that humanness inside of us, right.
(40:21):
We all just want to. Feel yeah and we've lost the art
and we need to get we. Have lost it.
Yeah, we've lost it. We're hungry enough for it.
This is the time. It's it's coming.
This is the time. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, thank you, Julie.
I'm going to close with a blessing based on on the the
learnings from this week throughyou.
So thank you. May we remember during conflict
(40:44):
and disagreements that our partner is not the enemy.
The negative cycle is may we practice new ways of being by
taking a pause, tuning into our own emotional needs and tuning
to our partners needs to get to the root of what we need from
each other in order to feel secure again.
And maybe remember that we all have a deep human need to feel
(41:07):
seen, heard and valued. Maybe be the change that we want
to see. If we want to understand, may
we. If we want understanding, may we
understand. If we want curiosity, may we be
curious and when we want to be heard, may we listen.
So thank you, Julie Manano, beautiful.
Well, thank, that was a that's the best ending I've ever had.
Thank you for that. That that gave me chills.
(41:28):
That was so. Sweet.
Good. Yeah.
I hope we remember it. May we remember it.
OK. Well, thank you so much.
This is great. Thank you.
OK, take care. Thank you so much for being here
with us. Let's Talk Love is brought to
you by Real Love Ready and hosted by Robin Ducharme.
(41:49):
If you'd like to keep learning with us, visit realloveready.com
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(42:52):
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Many blessings and much love.
Today I had the joy of speaking with and learning from couples
therapist, author, and educator,Julie Manano.
Julie helps couples create lasting, loving attachment, what
she calls secure love. She helps people understand
attachment, break negative cycles, and build secure,
lasting relationships. In an increasingly disconnected
(00:22):
world, learning how to truly connect, communicate, feel seen
in love matters now more than ever.
Enjoy. Welcome to Let's Talk Love, the
podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert
insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted
(00:43):
voices in love and relationships, and they're here
for you with tools, information,and friendly advice to help you
expand the ways you love, relate, and communicate.
We tackle the big questions, notshying away from the complex,
the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships.
I'm your host, Robin Ducharne. Now let's talk love.
(01:11):
Hello everyone, and welcome to Let's Talk LOVE today.
I, I'm so excited about this conversation.
Julie, I've got Julie Manano. You are a trailblazing
therapist, author, educator, andyou're gonna, we're gonna be
talking today about attachment theory and actually your book,
which Julie, I so enjoyed learning from you, Secure Love.
(01:31):
Glad. Yes, thank you.
I'm glad. So glad to help.
This is an incredible, incredible book.
Well, I appreciate you saying that.
That makes it all worth it. Yeah, I am.
Obviously I talked to a lot of therapists and coaches and we
talk about love and relationships all the time.
And I, what I so appreciate, Julie, is you know, your, your
(01:53):
work is based on emotional focustherapy, right?
And so it's like getting to the root of what really is like our
human need for security in our relationships.
And I don't think we're really talking.
I mean, you've got a million followers, so there's a lot of
people that are following your work that are learning from you.
(02:13):
But I really don't think that the majority of people really
understand how important it is to for it to have the security
in our relationships. Absolutely.
It isn't, you know, and even if they do kind of understand that
conceptually, they don't really know what is, what are the
moving parts to that, you know, what is that operationally?
That's why I love attachment theory.
(02:34):
I think it's the closest sciencehas come to really explaining in
detail and in workable parts howrelationships thrive and how
they fail. And when we can kind of start
seeing it through that lens, it gives us a much clearer picture
of what we need to do to to start shifting things.
Exactly. And so, Julie, in your book,
you, you say that, you know, youwrote it in the way that you
(02:57):
would lead people, lead couples through this journey, right?
Because it is a journey. It's this is not just about the
towels being left on the floor or that, you know, somebody
coming home late from work and just like just wanted to relax
rather than help out with the kids or like those this
conflicts that seem to repeat, right?
It's not about about just necessarily the argument itself.
(03:20):
It's about what's underneath ourhuman needs, understanding our
attachment. Can you, can you walk us through
like in your practice when you're working with people, how
are you, how you approach this so differently than other
therapists? Sure.
And and then, you know, what I'mgoing to describe is, is, as you
mentioned, emotionally focused therapy for couples, which is
(03:42):
very, you know, those of us who practice it do so pretty
consistently. As far as like what the process
looks like, it's a pretty clear set of directions, for lack of a
better word. So what we do is, is we get the
couple in and we first help themunderstand.
Understand what like give me an example of a fight, right?
Give me an example of a fight that you just had about towels
(04:03):
on the floor or where to put thekeys or a parenting issue.
And what we're going to quickly realize is that fight keeps
happening over and over and overagain.
The same fight it regardless of what the content is, because
we're really working with unmet attachment needs underneath the
surface. We're working with this really
(04:24):
foundational piece of relationships, which is what
needs to happen. What needs need to be met for
partners to feel safe and close to each other.
And they need to be met consistently in the overall
environment of the relationship as a kind of a felt sense.
And they need to be met in moment to moment interactions.
And if they go unmet in these interactions, it's probably
(04:47):
going to create a rupture. And then we need to repair that
rupture. And if it what happens is as
couples get in these fights and early on in the relationship,
they're fine. They love each other and they're
compatible and all these wonderful things that never stop
being true, right? And but what happens is, is that
they start having these fights and then the unmet attachment
needs start accumulating becausethey don't know how to avoid
(05:10):
them in the way they're, they'recommunicating around these
topics and they don't know how to repair them.
And so if you're in an argument with your partner and you're
just, I mean, you've been datingfor five months, you're having a
great time, it's wonderful. And then BAM, some conflict
comes. And then all the sudden now
we're getting into some real feelings and a partner isn't
(05:31):
validating those feelings. And instead of really hearing
you, they're saying, well, you should see it differently.
Or well, I'm not so bad. Or well, maybe you should just
break up with me. Or, you know, this is your
because of your childhood. And and So what that is, is it's
emotional invalidation. That's just one unmet need,
right? Well, what happens when someone
feels emotionally invalidated, especially if they're sensitive
(05:53):
to it because of the environmentthey grew up in?
They're going to get upset, thenthey're going to protest back.
And then, you know, the other person's going to not know what
to do with that protest. They're going to feel
overwhelmed. They're going to now have unmet
attachment needs around that. I'm not being heard.
I'm not being understood. I'm not being appreciated here.
Because then in their mind, they're just trying to make
everything better, right? And so then they get locked into
(06:16):
these patterns and the pattern that I just described, protest,
defense, counter blame, more protest, upset, blame,
deflection, getting logical, fighting about, you know, trying
to convince each other and then ultimately kind of bam, shut
down. Now we're distant from each
other till we come back. But that pattern will just keep
(06:37):
going. Usually couples will have one or
two predominant cycles. So this is good because now we
don't have to go through every single content and cure.
How are you going to divide labor over the towels?
Like, I want partners to get to that point, but the way we're
going to get to that point is byfiguring out how to get them
(06:58):
speaking to each other safely. So attachment needs are being
met. I'm being heard, I'm being
understood, I'm being validated.I'm not just having my flaws
presented to me without talking about what I'm getting right.
I'm, you know, not having to worry that because I'm getting
it wrong, you're just going to abandon me or see me as in a
complete failure. Right.
(07:19):
There's a few more. There's not that many attachment
needs. They're very like core of human,
you know, the human existence kind of thing called, you know,
we all need to feel safe and close to our partner and they're
pretty consistent ways to get there from human to human.
And so anyway, once we can startaddressing that, that's the
root. That's the root of the problem,
is what is getting in the way when you guys interact and
(07:40):
communicate of feeling safe and close.
Because if enough is getting in the way, it's going to, one, get
in the way of you being able to resolve your problems and then
you'll just indefinitely fight over the same thing.
And then two, it's going to get in the way of your feeling close
to each other and connection. Yes.
But what I'm going to do to kindof circle all this back is I'm
going to 1st help the couple seethis, right?
(08:02):
Just look, this is the pattern. This is the enemy.
You guys aren't enemies, OK? I think to Julie, that is so
hard to we all know this, right?You love this person so much,
but then you get into a disagreement or a conflict where
you're just feeling like, I remember the last time I had a
conflict with my partner and I just was like, you're not
(08:22):
hearing me, you're not seeing me.
I need you to, I'm not using theword validate, which OK, now
I've got the tools I've got, butI'm like, I, I just need you to
understand, you know, you're think, I know you're not the
enemy, but holy shit, like you're not getting it right.
So it's just remembering it's you say the enemy is a negative
cycle. It's not your partner as much as
(08:42):
you're just, you're trying to just get to the same place.
It's so we have to remember yourpartner is not the enemy.
It's the negative cycle, right? Yes, it's how your partner is
trying to communicate with you about their unmet needs and
emotional needs for safe, you know, needs for emotional safety
and their communication there ways that they're trying to
(09:04):
reach you certainly can be the enemy.
You know how they're trying to reach you and how they're trying
to regulate their own emotions. Absolutely.
But that's not the person behindthe behavior.
So if we can get that behavior shifted, now we're going to get
down to that person that you fell in love with.
And the same is true in reverse.And then we have, you know, we
(09:25):
also have self work to do, right?
Because it's not just how are wecommunicating with each other,
it's what's the unresolved stuffwithin each of us that's
contributing to the way that we're communicating with each
other. So we also have to get that
stuff stabilized. So when it comes to our
attachment needs, I know that I'm an anxious, I'm, I'm
(09:46):
anxiously attached, but I would say that I, I'm, you know, I'm,
I'm, I say that because I know how I was in my childhood and I,
I believe I'm recognizing prettywell what my, my, my maladaptive
behaviors were in the past. So I would say I'm, I'm secure.
I'm a very pretty secure person.I don't know if we ever outgrow
(10:06):
our attachment, but I think and my partner we.
We can heal, yes. Yes, my, my partner, you know,
he admits that he's avoidant. It's not even an admission.
It's like he knows he's because of his experiences, he's he's
sways more towards avoidant. So in the first part of the
book, Julie, you're helping people really recognize what
your core needs are based on what you want, what we all
(10:27):
experience, what we experienced in our childhood.
Is that the way to explain it? You know, 99% of the time this
stuff is going to go back to childhood there.
You know, what's going to happenis you're going to sort of your,
your relationship template is going to be set when you're, you
know, very a concentrated relationship as a child and
parent, you know, typically and your brain is just forming
(10:51):
rapidly. Your, your neural Rep pathways
are just forming rapidly. This is going to kind of get
wired into you. Don't worry, that's not a death
sentence. You can unwire or you can
unwire, but you can replace it with new wiring.
And then, you know, of course, as you grow, you can have
societal influences coming in. And So what happens is, is that
the attach, your attachment style is defined by the nature
(11:14):
of your fears and relationships,plus the way you manage those
fears. And so you're going to develop
patterns around that early on. Now then you get into adult
relationships that are, you know, problematic also, and you
don't know how to you and the partner don't know how to work
through that, Then your style ismost likely going to be
(11:35):
reinforced. So those relationships chips
aren't aren't going to make anything better at the very
least and will worsen them. Worst case scenario, you'll feel
worse. You'll become more insecure
because now you have more reasonto feel insecure.
So what we want to do is identify what our core
attachment needs are based on our childhood.
(11:56):
Is that right? That's the first thing we would.
Have and then we need to go backand figure out what went unmet,
what needs went unmet most of the time and how did we learn to
cope with those unmet needs and how did we learn to manage
connection based on those needs not being met.
So how are we managing these fears and how are we reaching
for connection? And that is going to have a lot
(12:19):
to do with the nature what needswere going unmet most of the
time and why you had to learn you to someone with an avoidant
attachment, their emotional needs were not being met right
very early on. And So what happens is they just
had to kind of without even thinking about it, learn to not
have needs. Like if I don't have needs, I
(12:41):
won't get hurt, I won't get let down, I won't get ignored, I
won't get shamed, I won't get punished.
So better not have them. Better find other ways to feel
connected. I'm going to be really
successful. So I get approval.
Approval feels like it's better than no connection.
You know, it's not real emotional, let's get to know
each other kind of a thing. But it's at least a positive
(13:01):
reflection. So a lot of people with
avoidant, they're going to find activities to help them feel
successful as a way to, you know, avoid the pain of their
difficulty connection to whatever degree that is.
And so we have to figure out like, why did you have to learn
to avoid your feelings? What was that all about?
(13:21):
Right. And and so now we got to get
some words to that. We got to get some words to
these fears. Nobody ever helped you
understand this. Nobody ever saw you emotionally.
And so now we have to figure outsome new ways for you to deal
with, you know, first of all, weneed to get you emotionally
engaged because you did not learn how you couldn't.
(13:42):
It wasn't safe, so your body just did what it was supposed to
do. Stay safe in this environment.
Well, now you're in this relationship with this partner
who has all these needs. You don't know what to do
because you don't even know whatto do with your own needs.
So I'm going to help you figure out how to get to your own needs
and how to manage them and talk about them and help them and be
with them. And that's going to help you
(14:02):
connect with you and have more to share.
And it's also going to help you know how to show up for your
partner's needs, because you cannot do that until you know
your own. Right.
Wow. And feelings, not just needs
feelings, it needs lead to feelings.
OK. So when needs are met, we feel
good and when needs are unmet, we feel bad, generally speaking.
(14:24):
So when I say unmet needs, I'm also kind of attached to that is
the emotional pain that stems from unmet needs and the
emotional warmth and safety and goodness that stems from that
needs. Right.
So if we can get partners meeting, then they start to feel
good and then they start to behave better.
And the more they behave better,the more they meet each other's
(14:45):
needs and the more the needs aremet, the And so it all just
starts flowing and, you know, feeding off of itself.
And what I've learned and you doreinforce in your book is just,
I mean, it just, it takes like shifts, it takes practice.
You're not going to be amazing at this from the beginning,
right? But the more you are becoming
more attuned to how you're feeling and being able to
(15:06):
communicate that in a way that'slike, I think that's one of the
hardest things. I, I find it's like, 'cause I
want to be, I want to be careful.
I want to be conscious of the words I'm using.
Yeah, without blame, without andand trying to you know, you say
like it's it's not just all about the I statements and using
it's like, how do you get way into what your needs are, right.
That is my biggest strength right there.
(15:28):
If you were going to name my what I have to offer more than
anything else, it's how to get in there and figure out what is
there to begin with. Because you're right, there's no
amount of words that you can useto talk about something you
don't know about. You can try and, and it's better
than not trying. And, and sometimes in fight
trying to formulate the words, you start to figure it out.
(15:50):
I don't want to believe anybody not trying.
It's it's better to to try, as I've said 1000 Times Now, but
it's we, we have to dive in there and figure out what's
going on to begin with. That's why I do the podcast
right there because it's one thing to give people the
instruction manual, but I work with a real couple for 20
sessions. I'm on season 2 right now and
(16:11):
I'm doing that work. I am helping them and the
audience learn how to really getin there and figure out what's
going on. And then we get we get the words
to share. Right.
What's happening in there Exactly.
Yeah. So you say as an anxious
partner, you have a desperate need for love and reassurance.
(16:33):
Yes. Right.
And so it comes to like I, I know one of my core needs is
prioritization. I want to feel like I am a
priority. I didn't realize that that, you
know, it's all this work I've been doing that you realize, OK.
And I and I want to feel validated, right?
And so it's like good for me. Like once you figure that out
(16:56):
for yourself, you can communicate that to your
partner, right? Like what would be ways that
like even before there's a conflict, Do you recommend that,
Julie, just to be like, OK, thisis what I've discovered about
myself, sitting down with your partner and saying, you know,
this is the way it was when I was little and this is how I,
you know, behaved then. And this is how I believe in our
partnership. This is what I need from you.
How would you best? How would you recommend you
(17:18):
communicate that to your to? Your OK so first you want you
going you're going to front loadit, which is what I just said.
You're going to talk about it when it's not being triggered,
which is this is a thing for me my whole life I felt like I was
put on the back burner and it hurt.
It was so bad and on top of the hurt I didn't have words for the
hurt. Nobody was there to help me with
the hurt. I mean wouldn't it have been
(17:39):
nice if you could go to your momand say mom, I don't feel
important right now and your momwould say Oh my gosh OK tell me
more. Well, let's figure out what we
can do to help you feel more important.
Or let me just comfort you. Whatever.
My whole life, I long to feel like #1 and I'm inviting you in
to help me with that because I chose you to be the one to help
me with that. And I want you to.
Choose. That's good.
(18:00):
Relationship. That's good, yeah.
And I want you to feel successful.
And here's a way to do it. Wouldn't it be great if you
know? And so you're not phrasing it as
you don't do enough. And here's this box I need
checked. You're like feeding them you
right? And it opens up their attachment
giving system. And so from there, now we have
(18:22):
this had this conversation to kind of set the stage like this
is this is what I want to work on.
OK, so now we're going to assumeyour partner is going to fail
you there because that's what wedo.
We fail each other and we have ruptures, right?
We're humans. Yeah.
Yeah, your partner's some at some point you're going to feel
de prioritized whether it's their failing or just something
(18:42):
in you that got triggered it. And so that's when you go when
you say look, remember we talkedabout this, right?
And so this is kind of one of those moments, I'm not blaming
you didn't do anything wrong, but this is kind of one of those
moments where I get the message and you know, I know it.
This topic is hard for us. It's hard to talk about where we
kind of let each other down, butbecause that hasn't always gone
(19:04):
well in the past. But, you know, if I don't bring
it up, then I'm going to feel alone with it.
And hopefully they're open to that and they're able to stay
with you because I will have taught them that that's what I
do. And they are able to kind of
lean in and not get defensive and not go, well, I wasn't
trying to or, you know, I didn'tmean to, or you're just seeing
(19:26):
it wrong or I don't want to be responsible for your childhood
wounds, right? So instead they're able to kind
of lean in and go, OK, tell me more.
All right. So when I, you know, said I was
going to call and I didn't, thattook you to the worst place
possible, which is, Oh my God, I'm not being prioritized.
No wonder you felt bad. I get that.
And I want to help protect you from that in the future.
(19:49):
So here's, you know, I'm willingto, to shift for you and it's
not always that simple. Sometimes it's not.
I can just you can push a buttonand I can meet that need because
I also have my own stuff going on.
Sometimes, you know, there are times when I'm going to be so
focused on the project and part of what helps me feel OK is
knowing that I'm on top of this stuff.
(20:10):
So how can we work together here?
We, we both know it's kind of like you have a need for
reassurance that you're a priority right over here.
And then they have a need. To not have to constantly put
whatever's going on with them onthe side to, to not just, you
(20:30):
know, be a robot or whatever. Right.
Do you understand what I'm saying here?
Yeah. And so we have both of those
needs. If we lean too heavily into one
and it's always about your need for reassurance, that's going to
be a problem. If we lean too heavy into the
other, which is they should never have to come your way and
move in toward you, then we haveanother problem.
(20:51):
So it's kind of like we're always balancing the this place
that has this like perfect tension and we just have to
figure out how to talk about it in a way that first doesn't make
it worse. We're hearing each other, we're
understanding each other. And then too, I've seen some
over and over and over again just getting couples speaking to
each other in this way and really leading with
(21:12):
vulnerability and sometimes healthy assertion that the
problems just start to sort of dissolve on their own.
You know, and then you start to get rid of all these little
things. It's like your work.
There might be, if your partner doesn't call you back, you just
have this felt reassurance that you're the priority.
Because you know, if you reach to them, they're going to lean
(21:32):
in and talk to you about it. So you don't need to anymore.
Or they're sitting there doing their work and they remember,
oh, this is one of those momentswhere you know, yes, I'm really
involved in this project, but I know my partner, I, I, I want to
help protect them from, from feeling like not a priority,
not, oh, they're going to be madat me and I got better.
I better reach out. It's, I want to help my partner
(21:54):
protect them from this wounded place because I love them.
And then to make even it more trickier, you're also
responsible for healing some of those wounds and doing yourself
work. So lots going on there.
What's going on there? And if you've got a partner that
is willing to do, is willing to do the work, you know it, it can
work out beautifully. Like really you can grow
(22:16):
together. This is yes, with the last
conflict that we had, we, we couldn't get out of the negative
cycle as much as we tried. Like we were, we were really
working it, Julie, I'm telling you, just like, OK, let's come
at it this way or this way and like take a take a day break,
OK, and then come back to it. But we ended up having a session
with a, with a couple of therapists.
Thank goodness, because he was able to be that middle person to
(22:38):
walk us through and come to the core need that we were both we
we were having a hard time communicating to each other and
no, and now we know right beautiful.
So this is where conflict. You know, I'm not as much as
it's so painful sometimes I realize that if you're with a
partner that is willing to do itwith you, it's like you can come
out knowing each other better and and he and healing.
(23:01):
I mean, really, that's the thing, right?
Absolutely, absolutely. It's just, you know, you're
getting to know yourself and you're getting to know each
other. And from that you're learning
better communication skills. And then as you learn the better
skills, you get to know each other better because part of the
skills are being vulnerable. And so again, it just all starts
(23:22):
to feed on itself. And I love that you were both in
that and willing and even even just trying to get out of the
cycle is a new cycle. Right.
Yes. Yeah.
And I think that's what people don't recognize is even though
even failed attempts are better than no attempt, that is a
(23:42):
movement in another direction. I always tell people, look, if
you're doing anything new at thebeginning of this work, that's
growth. At least we're getting you
unstuck. We'll we'll fine tune it as we
go, but at least we're getting you unstuck from the rigidity of
the old pattern. Yes, absolutely.
Can you talk more about vulnerability?
You mentioned it, Julie, becausethere's a difference between
(24:05):
complaining, you know, over likewhat is like, what would you
define as like true vulnerability, like how right,
because and how important it is.OK, so I'll give an example.
You left the keys out again. You know how anxious that makes
me. You know how important it is for
me to keep the house organized? Like, why won't you just listen?
(24:25):
It hurts my feelings. It makes me sad when you don't
listen. You know that's not so much
vulnerability, right? I mean, we're kind of touching
on talking about some feelings, but you're not really
invulnerable. Those words are protest words.
You're, you're trying to motivate your partner to change
rather than really digging in and sharing yourself with them
(24:45):
as a way to open them up to wanting to help you.
And so the vulnerable thing to say there, and this does take
some skill. Remember, we have to be able to
figure out what the vulnerability is to begin with.
The vulnerability is, listen, I know you have your, your own
stuff going on 1st you want to kind of lean into them, create
some safety. I know you're not just
purposefully coming in and throwing the keys down like I, I
(25:07):
know that isn't where your heartis, right?
But what happens for me is I'm, you know, really working hard to
keep, keep on top of things. I mean, it, it helps me feel
safe inside when I've got all these things going on just to
know, you know, the keys, these are taken care of and I don't
have that one thing to pick up. But you know what?
What's really important to me right now is it's just to know
(25:29):
you care about that. Because what's worse than not
having the keys put away is feeling like maybe you don't see
that. Maybe you don't care.
And then I just feel all alone with it.
So if nothing else, can you justhelp me know right now that you
understand where I'm coming fromand that I'm not just trying to
randomly attack you, that this actually has some meaning for
(25:51):
me. And that is, I mean, you can
probably feel your heart open tothat just as I speak those words
like it, it opens people. And especially if they're, you
know, doing the work to, to helpthemselves get open in it, it
invites them in to help. And your partner really is far
more likely to remember the keyswhen they see that and remember
(26:14):
to put them away when they see those keys and they, and they
say instead of saying them to themselves, well, I don't want
them to be mad or, or just kind of not really noticing they're
able to kind of remember that felt experience of, well, I
don't want my partner to feel alone.
You know, I don't like to feel alone and things.
So that that's just one example of the difference between the
two. One is just truly sharing who
(26:36):
you are, and the other one is really just trying to motivate
them to change. And if it is going to change, it
is going to come from empathy, not fear.
I mean, it's going to come from.Empathy, not fear.
Yes, and there is some truth to,you know, sometimes if if you're
saying, look, we have to go to therapy or I'm not going to stay
(26:56):
in this relationship. I mean there's fear involved
there, but it's not sustainable,right?
Let me say this sustainable change only comes from empathy
in really in close relationships.
I mean, that's what they're meant to be, right?
Right. I like how.
Partner inspiring empathy And how is the other partner
(27:17):
responding to empathy? That's really the crux of it.
Right. That was, that's something that
in this last flight we had, it was like, that's what I was
needing and I didn't. I was, I needed empathy.
And now my partner knows that, you know, it's like, OK, and
he's like, OK, but because he's avoidant and there there was a
lot of stuffing down his feelings or maybe not feeling
(27:37):
them at all. He's like, I have to learn that
this is a skill that I can learn.
And I'm like, OK, like that's it's amazing, really.
Right. Like, wow.
You're lucky he's that's great. I mean.
I'm extremely lucky. I know this, I know this.
I do. You say I don't.
Yeah. I mean, that's beautiful.
(27:57):
You can learn to be empathetic, right, Julie?
We all. Are already it's just we have
it's how much fear is blocking it.
That's the fear is blocking our empathy.
How? Much fear is blocking it and how
much of your inability to communicate it is blocking it.
But I've, I've never worked withanyone that I was able to, you
know, let me just say in that example that I shared where the
(28:21):
partners kind of feeling alone, unheard, misunderstood.
I mean, there's no human that you can't help figure out.
I in life have felt misunderstood.
It felt bad. I in life have felt alone or
ignored in something. It felt bad.
When you can get them into that,there's all you need for
empathy. I know what alone feels like.
(28:44):
It's just that if that person isso cut off from their own
experience, it's impossible. They're, they're not able to
feel them. They're definitely not going to
be able to feel you. Yeah, Yeah, you say unless.
So when it comes to vulnerability, unless they
involve stepping out of one's comfort zone for the greater
good, they're venting, not beingvulnerable.
(29:07):
So it's stepping out of your stepping out of your own comfort
zone for the greater good. I've never heard that said
before. It's very, that's profound,
really. Wow.
Yeah. What does that mean to you?
I guess it means, I mean the, when you think about the greater
good, this isn't just for me. I'm not, I'm not saying this for
(29:28):
my own, for just my own well-being.
I'm, I'm doing this for us like this is our bridge.
I really want to meet you here, right?
And it's for us, it's for the highest good, it's for our
relationship, right? So that's true.
So true. I like, I like to say it like
this too, like when I have someone do something in a
(29:48):
relationship, whether it's be vulnerable or if they're talking
about, well, I'm going to protest.
It's the only way it can be heard, you know, then I'm going
to invite them to, OK, let's just talk about the impact,
right? What's the impact on you?
What's the impact on your partner and what's the impact on
your relationship? And if someone is not doing
things that are working in theirrelationship, it's guaranteed
(30:10):
that that's out of balance. Some people won't speak up
because they don't want to harm the relationship.
They'll leave me if I speak up. OK, so they're prioritizing the
relationship over self. That's yes, some people are
going to protest because there'sthat they just need to get the
need met urgently. I just I'm going to protest
(30:33):
because I need it met yesterday,right.
So now what they're doing is they're prioritizing themselves
over their partners experience. Maybe they're saying mean things
to their partner. Maybe they're just not seeing
what their partner is getting right or whatever it is and now
their partner is suffering. And then, you know, sometimes we
have people who don't want to hurt their partners feelings.
(30:56):
So they're not going to they're going to not bring things up.
I don't want to hurt their feelings.
I don't want to make them sad. I won't like how I feel if I do
that. So now they're prioritizing
their partners needs over their own needs.
So we, we just need to, like yousaid, the greater good is when
all those three things align. I'm doing what's best for me so
I can feel a good about the way I'm communicating.
(31:16):
I'm doing what's best for my partner because I'm not, you
know, just randomly triggering them or trying to make them feel
shameful. And I'm doing what's best for
the relationship because that's what health does is it helps
relationships become more healthy.
Right. And you know, you, you start the
book that way, Julie, on talkingabout, you know, we, we talk
(31:37):
about what a healthy relationship is, but what we
want to do is reframe that as a secure relationship, a secure
partnership. So like, what does that look
like? Can we just look at, can we just
like talk about what, what does the secure relationship look
like so we can understand the difference?
Yeah. Let's go back to your situation
(31:58):
where you wanted to feel prioritized, right, OK.
So I think. Validated was more anything but
yes, yeah. OK, so let's do validated then.
So you, you know, overall in thebig picture of the relationship,
you need to know that my partner, generally speaking,
really does understand and make space for my emotions.
(32:20):
If I go to them, they're going to be there for me, right?
The reason I can reasonably assume they're going to be
there, they're going to show up,they're going to want to
understand and they're going to say, hey, that makes sense to
me. OK, so I kind of have this
knowledge, this felt sense. Now we go to a moment where
there's a rupture where your partner is not validating you.
They're they're stepping out of their norm because they're
(32:42):
triggered or they've got whatever they've got going on.
They're busy, they're tired. I mean, we're always having good
reasons to not be our best selves.
So they, you know, they don't validate you.
They say you're just being irrational right now.
We have a rupture. And so a secure relationship,
first of all, sorry, the overallclimate that I described, that's
(33:03):
a part of security. But now we have a rupture.
And in that rupture, what security looks like is, hey,
listen, I just want to let you know, I know you're tired and
stuff, but you know how I need that.
I need emotional validation. So do you.
And I wasn't feeling it just then.
Can we do something here? Can we try this again?
Whatever it is, both partners are able to repair in a way that
(33:26):
doesn't start destructing this overall relationship.
Because if there's enough experiences of unrepaired
ruptures, the climate starts to get really bad.
And so, A, we have a healthy climate and B, we have healthy
interactions that have met attachment needs that are
consistent and repetitive and sustaining that environment,
(33:47):
right? It's like I said, you know, in
the book, you know, we look at San Diego, right?
It's got this, you know, one of the greatest climates, there's
not a lot of rain. It's just temperate.
It feels good, right? It's in, for lack of better
words, securely attached. OK.
And then we have, you know, let's say it's all of a sudden
climate change happens. And you know, every now and then
(34:09):
it's it rains in San Diego and sometimes they have big storms,
right? But but everybody in San Diego
knows they will get back to their good climate.
Nobody has to worry, right? We're going back to it.
Don't worry. Well, then we have some climate
change come along or whatever, and all of a sudden it's the the
it's just storming all the time.At some point people are going
(34:31):
to go, I don't know if I want tolive here anymore.
Like it, it rains too much here,there is going to be that
shifting point. And that's what happens with
couples is, is we start off withthis beautiful, our, our needs
are met. And then all the sudden we start
having these ruptures that aren't repaired.
And then that starts to affect the environment.
And when the environment starts to feel unsafe, we're more,
we're more sensitive. We have a hard time regulating
(34:54):
ourselves through ruptures because not only is it the
rupture feels bad in the moment and I'm afraid it's going to
keep happening. Wow, Julie, the way that you
explain that is just so good because yeah, the repair, the
repair from the rupture is, is so important.
So, so, so important. Because otherwise it's like, I
can see it. Like the way I was visualizing
(35:15):
as you were speaking, it's like your foundation is just if
you're not, if you're not makingthat foundation strong, like,
yeah, and you and you're not fixing those ruptures, like, you
know, your foundation is gettingshakier and shakier and less
stable and less stable. It makes perfect sense.
Absolutely. And and a lot of people too,
they think, well, this is so much work.
Like I don't want to have to go through every little thing.
(35:37):
And it really isn't. It's actually less work because
secure couples can tolerate ruptures.
And he'll have like what I call implied repairs where you're
able to go in yourself and you're able to say, Oh my gosh,
I know my partner's having a badday.
It's not about they're, they're just not wanting to validate me,
right? Sometimes you need to reach out,
(35:57):
but sometimes you can soothe yourself because you have the
security of the relationship to be a resource for you in that
moment. And so you don't, you know, you
don't really have to deal with every little thing, but then on
this at the same time, all the little things stop happening to
begin with. Yeah.
So we're just, can we talk abouttipping the oh, sorry, go ahead.
(36:19):
Tipping the scales. Yeah, we're just.
Constantly scales. Yeah.
Can we talk about influence versus control?
Like you say, in a healthy relationship, you mutually
influence each other naturally, right?
Because you like, I want my partner's opinions on things.
I mean, if I've got something that I'm struggling with or just
(36:39):
I just like, can you please giveme advice?
I need your help because he's sosmart and he always, he always,
always gives me the most amazingadvice.
Really. I always follow his advice
because he always give me the like or like really I'm just
like so I trust him so much in that he'll give me the best
advice versus control. OK, OK.
Well, so with your partner, you know what?
Can you give me an example of something that you just really
(37:01):
trust His advice? I would say for sure when it
comes to my kids, when it comes to parenting stuff, and I'm
like, this is what's going on right now with one of my
daughter's. And he'll be like, well, have
you looked at it this way? Have you approached it this way?
What do you, what do you think about this?
Like he's very, very good at seeing.
He could put himself in other people's shoes and be like,
(37:23):
what? Maybe she's thinking about it
this way. And I'm like, good, thank you.
It's just this other perspectivethat is seems wider sometimes,
right. Yeah.
That's beautiful. And so the way that he sort of
presents that information to youis here's some suggestions,
here's the way I see it. And you feel like he's a team
(37:46):
member, right? You feel like he's got this
wisdom. And then your brain kind of
sorts through what he's saying, kind of mixes in some of your
own stuff. And you're open to him.
You're open to his feedback. It doesn't mean you might, in
every situation, do things exactly the way he says.
That tells me because of the wayyour nervous system responds,
(38:08):
that he is in a place of influence.
He's just sharing with you. He's just trying to help you
out. He's being a good teammate.
Now, if he's in a state of control, he's in a state of
fear, which is he's going, Oh myGod, she's doing it all wrong,
you know, or she wants my help. And if I don't give her the
right answers, I'm going to be afailure as a dad.
And so and so he's going to comeat it from fear, which is you
(38:32):
got to do it differently. You got to pull it together.
You shouldn't let them trigger you like that.
That's your stuff, right? And you here's what you have to
do. So in that situation, what he's
really trying to do is get you to change so he doesn't have to
feel bad. And that's the control part.
And so your body feels the difference.
Your body will absolutely feel the difference between someone
(38:54):
trying to control and someone wanting to influence.
So when we're, you know, when we're in the driver's seat as
far as like, do we, are we trying to control someone?
Are we trying to influence someone?
I mean, the, the distinguishing factor it is how scared are you?
And if you're, if you're scared and you're acting out that
scared, you're going to be coming from just need to get you
to change. So this bad thing that I fear
(39:17):
doesn't happen. And if you're in influence,
you're going, you know what, we're safe.
It's the it's not, you know, this is how problems get
resolved. We need patience.
We need time. You kind of have a realistic
idea about, you know, you're notjust kind of scared in the
world, right? And so you're able to just kind
of put things out there, but you're not so married to the
result. Well, run a time.
(39:38):
Julie went by so fast. But I, I, I, I love your work.
I mean you, you know, there's a say my friend buddy, my new
friend buddy just says this. I just love it.
He says cream rises to the top and there's a reason why you've
got a million followers and you're doing tremendous work and
like, I guess the value is, is, is huge.
So thank you so much, Julie, forbeing with us deeply for.
(40:00):
Teaching wonderful. And sharing your wisdom with us
today, I hope everybody reads your book.
It's like, you know, it's right up there.
I mean, really hold me tight. I mean, this is the work of
Doctor Sue Johnson. It's your work.
Yeah. And I just this is getting to
the core of our human needs. And I just that's that's how we
connect is from that humanness inside of us, right.
(40:21):
We all just want to. Feel yeah and we've lost the art
and we need to get we. Have lost it.
Yeah, we've lost it. We're hungry enough for it.
This is the time. It's it's coming.
This is the time. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, thank you, Julie.
I'm going to close with a blessing based on on the the
learnings from this week throughyou.
So thank you. May we remember during conflict
(40:44):
and disagreements that our partner is not the enemy.
The negative cycle is may we practice new ways of being by
taking a pause, tuning into our own emotional needs and tuning
to our partners needs to get to the root of what we need from
each other in order to feel secure again.
And maybe remember that we all have a deep human need to feel
(41:07):
seen, heard and valued. Maybe be the change that we want
to see. If we want to understand, may
we. If we want understanding, may we
understand. If we want curiosity, may we be
curious and when we want to be heard, may we listen.
So thank you, Julie Manano, beautiful.
Well, thank, that was a that's the best ending I've ever had.
Thank you for that. That that gave me chills.
(41:28):
That was so. Sweet.
Good. Yeah.
I hope we remember it. May we remember it.
OK. Well, thank you so much.
This is great. Thank you.
OK, take care. Thank you so much for being here
with us. Let's Talk Love is brought to
you by Real Love Ready and hosted by Robin Ducharme.
(41:49):
If you'd like to keep learning with us, visit realloveready.com
for more resources and tools to boost your relational skills and
get better at love. If this podcast has resonated
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people, the stewards of the landon which we work and play, and
(42:52):
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Many blessings and much love.
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