October 2, 2025 • 46 mins
What does it really mean to be a “good mom”—and who gets to decide?
In this episode of Let’s Talk Love, Robin sits down with therapist, author, and mother Vanessa Bennett for a candid conversation inspired by her new book, The Motherhood Myth.
Together, they explore the myths and societal pressures placed on women, the impact of over-parenting, and the learning and growth available to all of us when we create space in our lives to just be. Vanessa shares stories from her own journey and insights from her work, offering a grounded perspective on how women can honor themselves while caring for others.
This conversation is an invitation to release outdated expectations, embrace the full truth of motherhood, and lean into the support and connection we all need along the way.
We want to hear from you! Please send us your anonymous questions for the Podcast as well as our weekly IG Live Ask The Experts Q&A. https://realloveready.com/submitaquestion
Links:
https://www.vanessabennett.com/the-motherhood-myth
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Let's Talk Love. I'm Robin Ducharme, and today
I'm thrilled to be joined by my dear friend Vanessa Bennett.
In this episode, we delve into the real life challenges and
triumphs of modern motherhood, inspired by Vanessa's new book,
The Motherhood Myth. Together, we explore the myths
(00:21):
and expectations that surround parenting, the importance of
community, and the journey of reclaiming our identities.
Join us as we share personal stories and insights, aiming to
inspire and support each other on this ever evolving path of
love and self discovery. Welcome to Let's Talk Love, the
(00:43):
podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert
insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted
voices in love and relationships, and they're here
for you with tools, information,and friendly advice to help you
expand the ways you love, relate, and communicate.
We tackle the big questions, notshying away from the complex,
(01:05):
the messy, the awkward, and the joyful parts of relationships.
I'm your host, Robin Ducharne. Now let's Talk love.
Hello everyone and welcome to Let's TALK.
Love. Yeah, I'm so happy that you're
(01:26):
here today watching and listening.
We're in our new podcast studio in Victoria, BC and I'm so happy
that today, as we're starting this new time at REAL LOVE
Ready, I'm joined by my friend Vanessa Bennett, somebody that I
love and adore and I've worked with quite a few times over the
years. You were one of our experts at
(01:48):
In Bloom in Vancouver 2 April's ago.
Well, 1 1/2 And I've learned so much from you, Vanessa, and I
really am. I'm just excited for this
conversation. Thank you for being here,
darling. I'm so glad to be here, Robin.
It's good to see you. I'm holding up your book and I
think yes, OK, this week I had the joy and look, she matches
the back my our new background, Vanessa.
(02:10):
She's so pretty. You know when you have a book
and you're like, God, she's pretty.
Your book is beautiful inside and out, just like you and I'm,
and I'm saying that from the heart, with just so much truth
and reverence. The motherhood myth.
The Adept Therapist guide to Redefine parenting, reimagine
Intimacy, and reclaim the self. And I know you've been running
(02:35):
around all over the world doing your book tour and talking about
this beautiful, important piece of work.
I learned a lot from you this week.
And I, you know, talking about just how in motherhood things
have changed. There's so many expectations of
us. Let's start with why you thought
was so important to write this book and your experience.
(02:55):
Yeah, I think that, you know, already having been a therapist
prior to having my daughter, already kind of being on this
journey, learning through relationships and really
committed to that path, right, of like self-awareness, self
betterment. I was really unprepared for how
much of a fire under my ass having my daughter was going to
(03:16):
light. And I felt like when she was
about maybe about two, maybe a year and a half, two years old,
I just started looking around being like, is this real life?
Like no one prepared me for this.
I feel like I, I'm like screaming into the void, you
know, and just thought, God, we've got to be talking about
this. And it, it wasn't just the
motherhood struggles. It was the, it was the
(03:38):
relational struggles with my partner.
It was the the struggles to comeback to a sense of self.
I mean, everything was just mixed up in one big soup.
I just felt like I wasn't hearing or reading people
talking about it in the way thatI wanted to to talk about it.
Exactly there, there's just this.
I know because I've got 3 kids, right?
(03:59):
And I remember, I remember that going through this with my first
daughter, Maya, it was like you have all of the, you're
surrounded by the myths that it's going to be just this
blissful. I had the birth plan like you
did, Vanessa, like of so many moms do.
And nobody really tells you likeI I had a midwife and the the
(04:19):
the doulas, the midwives, even your friends, they're not
telling you fuck the birth plan.Like really, it's probably not
going to happen. It's good to have in in theory,
but it's probably not going to end up the way that you envision
because it's just like it's labor, right?
It's just like you never know what's going to happen.
But then just how as moms, it's like so hard to prepare for
because you're taking in a new role that you would know nothing
(04:41):
about. That's right.
That's one of the myths that youshare in the book around.
It's not it's even though it's natural part of human nature to
have the children. How do we step into that role?
And it's it's a whole new learning from the very start.
Yeah. You know, I tell you I wrote
about this in the book, But I had a client who I saw for a few
years and we actually paused ourwork when I went on maternity
(05:04):
leave right before I had my daughter.
And she at the time had her daughter was like 2.
And after I had Logan, I reachedback out to her maybe a year or
so later to reconnect. And I specifically wanted to
reconnect because I wanted to apologize to her for what I felt
like were a lot of my blind spots as a therapist.
(05:24):
And, you know, she was very kindand was like, what are you
talking about? We did so much great work
together. And I was like, no, I need you
to hear me. Like, I really believe as a
therapist. And you know, listen, we're
trained as therapist with this idea of you can hold somebody
with positive regard no matter what.
You can connect with somebody nomatter their story, no matter
(05:45):
their journey, and you can stillprovide a light.
And while I believe that's true on the other side of becoming a
mother, I firmly believe that there are two areas that as
therapists, I really think it's it's more helpful that somebody
connect with somebody who's had the shared experience.
And that is race and that is motherhood.
And it it just became so clear to me that there were just going
(06:06):
to be blind spots that I could not feel into without having
gone down that path myself. And what let's talk about the
story that you shared with your client, because I think
something that is so what's so important to me and you too, and
the client you're talking about,it's like we are this full woman
right before having babies, but we also want to have the babies.
(06:27):
I did. And it was just something that I
knew was part of my life path. And I was blessed to be able to
have kids. And it was like, OK, But then I
also wanted to step back into being a career person.
Like I loved where I love work and and being of service to the
world and just it gives me so much joy and so much purpose.
And I also want to be with my friends and I want to like all
(06:49):
the things travel. Like, you know, all of that is
still me and I'm now having haveto have a child.
So navigating all of it. It's just this there's so much
expectation, but myth around. It's like we can have it all.
Like, you talk about that in thebook Vanessa, right?
Yeah. I mean, this idea of you can
have it all, right? I think so much of what I did
when I was writing this book wasbecause for my own purposes, I
(07:11):
really like to understand the how we got here.
That is so important for me. And so this book is like part
anthropology, part sociology, part psychology, right?
And this idea of you could have it all.
I started looking into the different generations of
feminism and how we kind of got to this place as women, you
know, in our generations. It's like millennial Gen.
X kind of generations that we'rein right now as parents.
(07:34):
And it really became so apparentto me that that generation of
feminism that was really like our mothers and grandmothers
generation, Well, amazing work and amazing things have come
from their work, right? One of the myths that I think
came out of that was this idea of two things.
One, you have to act more like aman to be taken seriously and to
be respected, right, Which I think did a real number on, on
(07:58):
women in particular. Not.
Our senses of self. And the other one really is
around this idea of what it looks like to have it all.
And I think this myth impacts both men and women in different
ways. But for women, it was like, you
can have the career, you can have the kid, you can have the
relationship, you can have all of it.
And part of that myth was you can do it all.
And God, what a recipe for burnout, right?
(08:20):
And so you're seeing now the generation of us who were raised
by women who were kind of at theforefront of that.
And we're all looking around being like, no, this is, this is
too much. Like, I don't actually want all
of this. It's exhausting.
And I can't keep my head above water.
It is too much thinking about. I don't know.
I think what it is. It's like I think about you.
(08:41):
You talked, I love that, that you dissected different
generations and how like we wereraised.
So I it's funny because I get all confused.
Gen. X, thank you for reminding me of
that in your book. But it was like back in the day
when we were kids, right? It was how we were even
parented. My mom was a stay at home mom.
She was career person before shehad us.
My dad was working all the time.But as kids it was like there
(09:04):
was that independence that was just totally ingrained in us.
It's like come back at dark, dinner will be ready by like
5530. None of us even wore watches
back then. We sure as hell didn't have cell
phones and we loved it. I mean the freedom of it.
I mean, that's just how we were raised to be quite
self-sufficient, right? But then our parenting has
shifted like a pendulum now on this side right?
(09:25):
Where now it's like because we were kind of under parented, we
as parents are over parenting. The pendulum has completely
swung to the other side like thehelicopter parenting and keeping
our kids completely busy all thetime.
Like my parents used to give me shit.
Like don't use the word bored. That word is not allowed in our
household. I don't care if you're bored,
right? Yep.
And now our kids are like, I'm bored.
(09:46):
It's like, OK, well how can we keep you busy?
Here's a screen, here's a show. Like go do your sports.
Like do 5 sports in a week. It's exhausting and, and the
research is showing that we're actually creating and I, you
know, I say this delicately because I know that parents,
especially mothers, already takeon a ridiculous amount of guilt
and shame around the ways that we're screwing our kids up.
(10:08):
But the research is showing thatit has detrimental impacts on
our kids emotional and mental health, right?
We've got the most anxious kids now.
We've got the most depressed kids now.
They're exhausted, they're burntout.
There was actually a new research study that just came
out recently talking about kids on screens.
And it was saying that kids havebeen reporting that the reason
why in particular they want to be on screens more is because
(10:29):
essentially it's the only place in their life where they can be
alone and, and unsupervised by adults like we used to have.
Because kids do crave that. They crave that unstructured
alone time with their peers. And so because they're not
getting it out in the real world, they're finding it in
online spaces. So it, it's just, we've got to
be able to look at, yes, what isworking?
(10:52):
What can we learn from those previous generations?
How can we kind of tweak and adjust without swinging it so
far to the other side of the pendulum that now we're actually
not, you know, not on purpose creating our own brand of harm
by the way that we're parenting?Yes.
And you know what, I think what I really took away from your
book, Vanessa on like this, likethis macro level, it was that
(11:14):
it's just understanding us in our societies and our cultures
and how this is that awareness is, is such an important thing
and learning and then applying tools so that once we have that
awareness, OK, this is not the right way.
How can we do some corrections here?
It's not to be in a place of blame.
It's not to be in a place of shame.
Because guess what? It's like we can look back on
(11:35):
our parent, on our parents and be like, oh really?
We're so screwed up in this way and this way, this way.
And actually I don't want to be,I don't want to talk like that.
I don't want to think like that because here I am as a 48 year
old woman and I'm like, I am becoming.
And actually it's happened. I'm, I'm my mother and my
father. It's a fact.
It's official. I'm totally my.
Parents same, girl same. But but you know what?
I've believed that I've taken the good that that my parents
(11:57):
gave me and that I inherited andall, and the things that I want
to correct, the things that I know, oh, that was not so good.
I'm making corrections in that way so that I don't want to
repeat those patterns in my lifeand with my children.
But that comes out of your ability to see and hold your
upbringing objectively, which a lot of us really struggle to do.
(12:19):
And I would say the same goes for seeing ourselves within the
societal structures that we livein, right?
Because being able to hold that objective reality is what allows
you to depersonalize. That's what allows you to go.
I see the way that I am living within the structures of, let's
say, these dominator models of society, right?
So patriarchy, capitalism, whitesupremacy.
(12:42):
I see the way that I'm functioning.
I see how it's impacted me that that means that I'm not
inherently bad. It means that I'm a byproduct of
a system. And so now that I can
depersonalize that I can remove the shame and now I can correct
the behavior that doesn't actually feel aligned.
It doesn't actually feel like mytruth.
But so long as I'm not able to see it objectively, I will
(13:03):
forever stay in that kind of shame loop around there's
something wrong with me that I'macting this way or I have these,
you know, these patterns that I don't like or whatever The thing
is. And that's why, again, going
back to this idea of how do we get here.
That's why I felt like it was soimportant because we need a
rally cry. We need to be able to say, OK,
like these systems that we're living in do not work.
And so the second you can see that, you can go, oh, yeah, I
(13:25):
can actually step forward with my comrades and say, let's go
against the system. It's not personal, you know.
That's, that's right. I think this is such an
education for us, like, because you are going into, like you
said, it's an anthropology, it'san anthropological discovery.
Like these are things, this is our history.
This is how we got here. And these are the pervasive
(13:46):
myths that actually and patternsthat we are surrounded by,
they're not going away unless all of us actually do wake up
and start making some changes. So, but first, first it is the
awareness. And then it's like, how do you
make what, what changes can we make?
Right, right, right. So loss of village.
That's a that's a big theme in in your book, right?
And how and how important community is.
(14:11):
So can we, can we talk about that?
Because I think that a lot of people are like, don't really
understand, OK, well, how do I build community?
I understand that back in the day, our children were raised by
a village for sure, right? But we're not there now.
So what do we do? Like how does that impact like
how we are now? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of
(14:31):
us are familiar with this idea of the village and we know that
it it's this kind of thing that existed Once Upon a time, right?
I think one of the things that was so eye opening for me when I
was doing the research was this isn't an idea of something that
was a long, long time ago in a fairy tale.
There are still models or societies right now that are
currently existing like we're talking about.
(14:53):
And I actually thought that was really important to understand
because it's attainable right now in this world, because it
exists right now in this world, right?
And so that really helped me understand, like there are
things that I can do, I might not be able to completely alter
the structure of our society, but there are individual steps
that I can take to try to bring some more of that kind of
(15:15):
communal, family, village oriented way of, of parenting
and partnering, right? Because at the end of the day,
our species would never have survived.
If we were structured to have one, maybe two adults taking
care of children, we would not have survived.
You know, there's a lot of research around this idea to
like with attachment, for example, we're so obsessed with
(15:35):
attachment in this culture and we were not designed as beings
to have one primary attachment figure.
We were designed to have multiple attachment figures,
right? Each attachment figure kind of
giving us something different. Like your grandmother would give
you something different than your mother, than your auntie,
than your cousin, than your stepbrother, than your whatever,
right? So each of these people would
(15:56):
kind of give us something different.
As that got smaller and smaller and smaller, we started putting
more and more emphasis on our like one primary attachment
figure, right? So even when you look at
attachment research, this was what the 50s, sixties, 70s, when
all of this conversations were being had around attachment.
And so even that research was done, host community post when
we didn't have access to that anymore.
(16:17):
So how reliable? I'm starting to question, how
reliable is that information even really when that's not how
our species was actually designed to live and to thrive,
right? So what it did for me was start
saying I have to let go a littlebit.
I actually cannot be, nor shouldI be my daughter's everything.
It's detrimental to her, her development, her well-being, her
(16:39):
ability to relate from a solid sense of self, Like I am
actually hindering her by makingme the center of her universe,
right? And so I really started leaning
into this idea. I mean, unfortunately,
obviously, you know, we lost ourcommunity in the fires in
January, but prior to that in our street, we had started
recreating this. We had multiple families, we all
had kids. It was the very like doors were
(17:00):
open. Kids were running back and forth
like we were when we were younger.
Yes. And I was putting so much
emphasis on that because we started realizing how important
it was for my daughter to be able to lean on, let's say my
good friend and neighbor Meredith for certain things that
she wasn't going to get from me,right?
And vice versa. And so it's possible, but it
just takes work, right? Have you read there's a quote or
(17:23):
something that's been going around recently?
I've been thinking about it thatsomebody said I'm going to
butcher it, but it's something like the price we pay for
community is inconvenience. Oh, I've never heard that, but
that's great. I mean really, what is that?
We've convenienced ourself out of community, right?
And I'm, it's starting to blow my mind because I'm like, that's
(17:45):
exactly what it is. It's so much easier for me to
deliver my groceries to my houseso I can keep working.
But in that hour or two hours that I go to the grocery store,
I'm engaging with my community, my local grocery store, the
people who work there. I'm going to run into my
neighbors, right? So I've started being like, oh
shit, we've got to really start weighing inconvenience versus
community and and start thinkingabout that in a different way.
(18:08):
I agree. I agree.
I I was thinking about when I was raised, we were surrounded
by people at all times, like whether it was, you know, my
dad's side of the family, my mom's side of the family,
regular family dinners every single Sunday at my grandparents
house. It was just and my mom always
had lots of friends. My dad too, customers like back
in those days. I, I sound so funny.
(18:29):
I've been dating those words a lot of days in those days, those
days like my dad used to bring it the customers families to our
summer cabin every single summer.
It's like and we'd say, oh, we kind of complain right.
My dad's like these aren't just my business partners.
These are my friends and go havefun jump in the lake like it was
that is community, right. Yeah, beautiful.
(18:50):
So something that I really, I, Oh my gosh, I love this part of
the book, Vanessa, about mothering martyrdom is not
mothering and how martyrdom is quite prevalent, right?
It's like the moms are giving, have been giving up who they are
thinking that it's in service ofthe children, right?
(19:13):
But really a lot of it is self-serving because if, if
you're not going to accept the help from your spouse or you
know, let's say, let's say you are Co parenting with your
partner. You see this all the time.
You hear it all the time, right?He or she can't do it the way
that I'm doing it, so I'm just going to do it.
Yep, and and your community likenot asking for help from your
(19:34):
community too, right, Not even just your spouse, but this
again, it's the blueprint that we've been handed.
You know it, it's not just women, but let's say generally
speaking, we are talking more ofthe mother in this situation
where women have been handed a blueprint in the West, that
being a self effacing kind of give everything.
(19:55):
You know, when you think of women, you think of piety and
you think of virtue and you think of kindness and you think
of all these all these things, right?
That that is what it means to bea good woman, a good partner, a
good sister, a good friend, a good mother, right.
And again, part of the book is me saying, where did this come
from? Is this, is this how it's always
been? Because I just don't believe
that this is the truth. And sure enough, when you start
(20:18):
to pull the threads and you start to go in the research,
right. So everyone of the chapters in
my book, I have what I call either an archetypal form or an
archetypal story, a myth, right?I call it myths as maps.
And the image, the archetype that I used in this chapter is
one that I know is going to kindof irk a lot of people.
And it's the archetype of MotherMary.
It's the archetype of the virginal mother.
(20:38):
And I started questioning, you know, where do we get this
description of who Mary was is right to us?
And I started kind of again, going back in time and doing the
research and realizing how Mary herself is actually a composite
of a few different goddess figures that were around during
the time that Christianity was spreading, right?
(20:59):
Because we know that a lot of Christianity is actually kind of
been taken over from paganism because we tried to get people
to convert in an easy way. And so even Mary herself is kind
of a composite because it was what was comfortable for those
who didn't worship Mary, right, as as who she was.
And I started looking at some ofthe composites and I thought,
how interesting that when we look at like Collie, for
(21:21):
example, who is the archetype ofthe mother, she's also the
archetype of death. She is the goddess of both birth
and of death. She's terrifying to look at.
She wears a string of skulls around her neck, right?
And she's the archetype of motherhood at the same time.
And I started thinking to myself, isn't it fascinating
(21:42):
that in every other basically region of the world, we honor
the mother as both life and death.
We honor both the dark and the light of the woman, of
femininity, of motherhood. And I started looking at how
again, these kind of like, let'stake off all these personality
structures of Mother Mary started being used as a way to
(22:04):
give women like, this is how youshould be in order to be looked
at as a good woman, a Good Wife,right?
Again, a good mother. And I started thinking, geez,
all of these blueprints have essentially been constructed to
control. They've been constructed as a
way to keep women and men reallyin line, not questioning, not
challenging, right? Head down, stay a cog in the
(22:26):
system and stay in your shame. You're never going to achieve
that. By the way, no human woman is
ever going to achieve this created myth of of who Mother
Mary is, right? So good luck stay trying for the
rest of your life. You'll be failing right.
And so anyway, I mean, there's kind of a long winded way to to
talk about martyrdom. But again, it was this eye
(22:48):
opening experience for me where I started going.
Where did we get this idea that to be a good mother was to
sacrifice everything and give tothe point of depletion.
It's nonsense. And so that was part of part of
my kind of pushing back in this chapter.
It is absolute nonsense, but it also what you point out is how
it's not giving our children themodeling on what it is to be to
(23:12):
to have a fulfilled life, right?If everything in me as a mother
to my children is all about them, how what am I showing them
like? That's right.
Actually, my life is, I was talking to my partner Hector
about this yesterday. I was like, I want my kids to
see me as a full person, just like I want them to grow into
(23:34):
whatever it is that they want tobe and do in this life.
Because you are going to be a mother, but that's not your only
thing that you're going to be inthis world, right?
What else do you want to do? What's going to light you up?
What's going to give you joy? Because that's how you're going
to be able to be the best parentyou can be.
I believe that. Yeah.
And I think that it's really important for us to always
remind ourselves that children learn by what they see, not by
(23:57):
what they hear. So our daughters are watching us
to see a blueprint of how to be a woman in this world to how to
be a partner in this world, to how to be a mother in this
world, right? And our sons are looking at us,
assuming they're heterosexual, as what they want as a blueprint
and a partner, right? And so if I want to your point,
my daughter to live her most fulfilled, most passionate, most
(24:19):
wildly unbridled and full of arrows life, I have to be doing
the same for myself. She's watching me to see how
it's done right. And so it's so important.
And and to your point, it's like, and listen to those moms
who are like, motherhood is my greatest joy.
I love that. That's amazing.
And still, what else? Like, what else is there for
(24:41):
you? What else fills you up?
What else brings you joy? Talk about it.
Go for it. Spend time there because you're
giving them permission to do thesame thing.
Yes, something that I wanted to talk with the story that you
share about your client Candace around this right, because I
think this is so common. Vanessa she's a woman she was 36
(25:01):
years old. She wanted to be a stylist for,
you know, but she's got her kidsat home.
She's and she was freaking out about going away for the
weekend, right? But you had been working for her
for about a year at this point. And she said you don't
understand. I can't leave them for an entire
weekend with their dad. You won't feed them right?
They'll fight all weekend or just get sat in front of the TV
(25:22):
and they probably won't even getproper baths or brush their
teeth right. I think this this is just one of
those things that just like prevail.
It just prevails in our society.It's like the whoever the other
parent that's not there all the time, they're not going to do a
good enough job. The kids are going to suffer.
It's like, what a load of BS like that.
Actually, it like when I read that, I was like, I I've heard
this so many times and I, I knowI probably have thought it
(25:43):
myself like back in the day whenmy kids were little.
Yeah. But it's like, first of all,
you're not the be all and end all.
And it's like it actually doesn't, it doesn't really give
your partner a lot of credit, does it?
It actually just says like, likemy kids are going to like perish
without me. I know, and this this goes back
to this idea again of saying like our children need to have
multiple attachments in their life.
(26:04):
We can't be their end all be alland Becca, they can't be ours
either, which is what happens sooften in examples like that,
right? Because the challenge working
with Candace was around this idea of you've turned them into
so much of your everything that your sense of self and sense of
purpose is wrapped up on two people that you have 0 control
(26:24):
over. They're their own individual
beings and souls. You don't own them, you don't
control them. So what happens when they no
longer need you or they they rebuff your your advances and
wanting to help, right? What are you going to do?
And it doesn't always have to bejob and career, but going back
to what we were saying before, like, what else is there, right?
(26:45):
Because the more we pedestalize,actually, it's funny today, and
I were just having a conversation about this
yesterday, We were talking aboutthe way that we as humans
dehumanize other humans. And what we were saying is it's
not just dehumanizing in like the negative way, like they're
bad. They don't agree with me, so
they're lesser than. We also dehumanize when we
pedestalize people. It's the same process of
(27:08):
dehumanizing because you're not,you're not real, You're not a
fully formed human. You're not, you don't have light
and dark, right? Like I only see you in this one
way. And I think it's really scary
because we do that with our children.
We pedestalize them or we place ourselves on a pedestal.
And so there's actually a process of dehumanizing in that
that I think is icky, but reallyimportant for us to look at.
(27:30):
And going back to touch on what you said, we do a, we do a
number on our, on our relationships when we are so set
in, it's got to be my way or no way.
Not only do we tell the other person that we don't trust them,
that we think they're incompetent, right, and
incapable, but we also tell our children that that other person
is incompetent and incapable. And so that is what they will
(27:51):
believe about that parent as well, right?
And it will impact their relationship with that parent as
well. It absolutely will.
Yeah, it absolutely will. So I wanted to go back to the
cult of busy. So this this really is like a
really big problem in our society is how we are so
consumed by being busy. And you know, you talk about
(28:13):
like the art or I don't know if it's the words art, but it's
like learning the unbusy or learning the undoing the non
doing. And.
How and, and it's actually an active state.
This is something that I have just like in my life, I have
adopted and it's changed. It's changed so much in me
because I'm no longer filling mycalendar just to fill it.
(28:35):
I was before it was like I and even I don't even like to use
the word busy. Like I don't want to use that
word anymore because like that to me is not like fantastic to
be like I'm so busy. Like I actually don't really
like, yes, I've got lots to do and I've and I'm going to
prioritize my time actually in, in such a, in a, in a more
balanced way. Now I'm very deliberate on like
(28:57):
creating more space in my life, but I don't, I don't think we're
there as a society. No, and I mean, look at we have
to also say that there's a lot of people who the idea of having
space in their life is a privilege, right?
I mean, that's we've gotten ourselves as a society so into,
you know, people are killing themselves just to put food on
the table. They're barely surviving, right?
(29:17):
And again, this is on purpose. This is all on purpose because
if we had space and we had time to question and we had time to
rest and we had time, then we have time to think.
And then we have time again to challenge these systems that
keep us perpetually busy so thatwe do not ask the larger
questions. We do not say, what do I really
want for myself in this life? What fulfills me?
(29:41):
What you know, And so part againwas me saying, question why you
feel like you have to be perpetually busy.
And I'm guilty of it too, right?This is not like me saying.
Me too. Anybody.
I mean, shit, I was just having a conversation with John
yesterday about it with Costa Rica.
Right where I said, I looked around and I went, wow, I'm
trying to fill my calendar. I'm, I'm feeling guilty that I
(30:03):
have a light day and that I can go to the beach in the middle of
the day and I'm watching it happen.
We're all kind of guilty of this.
It's the society that we live in.
But it is a sickness and it and it is, I call it a cult for a
reason, you know? So how are you like, how are you
helping people with that? Like what would be some ways
that we can just even like, tellme what, what are you doing in
(30:24):
your own life? Like like you just said, it's
just like it's just being aware,like becoming OK, I'm doing
this. I'm actually going to take put
it in my calendar that I'm goingto take an hour just to do do
nothing. I mean, that's one big way.
And I, I've been doing that for years, which is like if I don't
schedule in movement, if I don'tschedule in a workout, it won't
get done. So for years I've been putting
(30:44):
it on my calendar and I treat itlike a meeting and it can't be
moved, right. So that's definitely one way to
do it. And you have to guard it.
You can't let other people kind of sway you, if you will.
That's one way. The other way that I, I like to
talk about a lot. I think I even talked about this
in the book was I had a moment when I was reading Untamed
Forever Ago by Glennon Doyle where I loved that part where
(31:05):
she talks about watching Abby sitting watching soccer and how
she noticed. She was kept saying she was just
so bad. Yes, and so I've used that with
clients so often since I've readthat, which is like noticing
that voice in your mind that does the must be nice because
we've all got it. And when that must be night,
well, not I shouldn't say we've all got it.
(31:26):
Those of us who have been kind of raised to hustle and raised
in this kind of over functioning, I have to prove my
sense of worth by producing and achieving, right?
We're the ones that tend to havethat voice more ingrained.
So notice when the must be nice creeps in and question it.
Pay attention to it, turn towards it with compassion.
(31:48):
We don't need to judge ourselvesfor it.
But where does that come from? Why does this person, in my
mind, have to justify their rest?
Why do they have to ask permission to rest?
And why do I feel like I have toask permission to rest?
Right, because you know this, but always, always when
something is activating about somebody else, there's an
(32:08):
opportunity there for us to turnand run in ourselves and say,
what's going on internally for me, right?
What is that projection? What's the hook there into my
shadow? And so that must be nice.
I think it's a really good way to like turn inward and do some
of that shadow work around busyness and worth.
Yeah, that's what so much of like that's so much that your
work is. It's about its depth, depth
(32:30):
psychology, right? It's so much about introspection
and our soul and how it's like, it's like the marriage between
me individual and the collectiveand just all of it, right?
My body, spirit, soul, shadow work.
I've just started, like I don't,I don't know if a lot of people
even understand what that is like.
Can you give us a really brief what, what is that 'cause I've
(32:51):
just started learning more aboutthis Vanessa.
Like I didn't really know a lot about even what that meant.
What shadow? Can you explain it to us?
Yeah, so shadow is AI mean. It's a Jungian term.
And you know, there's a couple more modern takes on shadow work
that have become very successfuland make a lot of money, but
don't really give credit where credit's due.
(33:11):
So shadow work is really about understanding that as we grow
up, there are parts of ourselvesthat society, our family of
origin, perhaps our school, perhaps our, you know, our
community. People are saying no, that's not
acceptable. You know, you can't, you can't
act like like that. You can't be like that.
That part of you is not acceptable.
(33:32):
And for whatever reason. And so as we learn to move
through the world, we, we slowlytake those parts of ourselves
and we put them in what Jung called the shadow, right?
And kind of lock the key. And as we're creating the
shadow, we're simultaneously kind of creating the persona,
which is this is the way I will move through the world.
This is the mask that I will wear so that I am socially
acceptable. Now, to a certain extent that's
(33:53):
necessary. We live in a, a social society.
We learn the social rules and how to move and how to exist,
right? But what happens when the shadow
is not looked at is it actually is the thing that's calling the
shots. It lives in the unconscious.
It they, whatever components we're talking about are
relegated to the unconscious andis so long as they are in the
unconscious, they have far more control over how we act than we
(34:17):
want to believe that they do. And so it seems scary to us to
actually look at these parts of ourselves, but the more we bring
bring them into the light and work to integrate them, the less
control over us they actually have.
So I'll give a quick example because it was really helpful
for me when I first started doing shadow work when I was in
grad school. I remember there was a woman
that was in my cohort who would sit in the front in the middle
(34:41):
every class and would get on these kind of like what I would
call like a tangent where she would be in almost like a
one-on-one dialogue with the teacher, seemingly unaware of
anybody else around her, right? So just asking questions about
her own experience and her personal experience and what?
And it was like nobody else existed, right?
And around her, we would all be like, hello, like, can we get
(35:03):
back to the teaching or like, can we at least talk about
something that's relevant to theother 30 people in the room,
Right. And she had this pattern of
doing it a lot. So Danae and I to talk about her
again, my best friend, we were doing shadow work in class.
And I brought this up and she said, you know, what's
interesting about that is what, what are the ways or like the
character of personality traits do you find so activating about
(35:25):
this person? And I said, well, there's a
seeming like like a selfishness or like a takes up so much space
with disregard to everybody around her, right.
And so we obviously went one way, which was like, well, who
else in your life, you know, parental figures that like had
this kind of personality and that's why it's so activating
for you. Then we went to shadow, which is
(35:45):
I wonder if there's parts of youwho wish you could take up more
space. You wish that you weren't always
so concerned with everybody else.
With everybody else. Being OK all the time and it was
like, like I remember my head just like exploding and being
like, Oh my God. She activates me because there
(36:05):
is some part of me that feels jealous of her ability to just
be like, I don't give a shit about anybody else, it's all
about me. Now, do I want to live exactly
like that? No.
But there is a part of me that wishes I wasn't so always
concerned about everybody else in the room, Right?
And so that's just an example ofhow you actually could tangibly
(36:25):
work with activation as a way todo your own shadow work.
Right. So I think what your story
around Candace also illustrated was that shadow work, for
instance, right? It's like what you helped her
see was that by her actually notwanting to go out, Like she, she
was making all these excuses really for not wanting to go
(36:46):
away for the weekend to really learn more about her craft that
she wanted to, you know, she wanted to become a stylist, but
she was hiding behind those excuses because of her fear,
right? That's right, of not succeeding,
not being great at being a stylist or, or being, or somehow
being replaced by her husband orher kids, not turning to her for
everything because she was getting so much out of that,
(37:07):
right. So that would be an example of
the shadow showing itself to herso that, so that actually she
could address that part of herself.
It's, it's nothing that we need to fear looking at our shadow
sides. And, and actually, the truth is
we need to look at the shadow sides of ourselves because we
both we all have dark and light and shadow, right?
That's right, that's right. And and that's it.
I mean, it's, it's being able tolook at these different
(37:29):
individual parts of ourselves and bring them into the light
with compassion and with understanding, right?
Because that's really what they're desiring.
They're desiring to be seen. They're desiring to be heard and
understood so that you can say, oh, I can understand why you
feel that way. That makes sense, right?
You don't have to do that anymore because you can trust
that I've got this. Like, it's OK, even if I am
(37:52):
rejected by a job, right? Like let's use Candace as the
example. Even if my kids do start to
learn more on their dad and it starts to make me question my
role and my worth and my value as a mother, I, it's OK for me
to look at that and I'm going tobe OK through that process,
right? So yeah, to your point, that's a
really good example of how we can use something like that to
(38:13):
be able to see those parts of ourselves.
Yes, and the great thing is thatshe did go on that weekend and
she did start pursuing what was giving her joy and lit her up
and and that, you know, like allthe things you just talked
about, like all that did probably happen, right?
The dynamics of her family changed.
(38:33):
Yes, she but she was raised up in order to like, it's all it
all work works out, right? Yeah.
And look at it wasn't perfect, right?
She still struggles. Nothing perfect.
There's nothing perfect. And also, like, her kids got a
lot more resilient. Her kids were able to, like,
stop relying on her for so much.She started feeling a little bit
of breathing room, and it was terrifying for her.
And also it was great for everybody involved.
(38:56):
Yeah, and you point out in your book so many times over and over
again, the paradox in life. I mean, it's full of it at all
times, right? That's right.
So that's right. I can I can be grieving right
now. But also, you know, laugh like,
you know, we, we, we as enjoying.
We can hold the dichotomy. That's right.
I just think that's right. We there's a lot of grey.
OK, I want to talk about the story you shared.
(39:16):
It was so good, Vanessa, becauseI think as women, we've or
people, we've done this before the tattoo story.
Oh my gosh, this is all a part of like the let me see.
Keep holding up again. I want to see.
This notice how all of my work is so like dainty and pretty and
then you have this like giant black dark tattoo.
(39:37):
So for those who are not watching.
It's just. Very dense.
Yes, but you know, this story illustrates how so this is part
like this was like part of your choose me wound how right around
how we will bypass our own innerknowing because it's like that's
(39:57):
like we're so we were so we're so programmed to do that, like a
lot and in order to not what would you say not like?
Rock the boat like not rock. The boat.
Yeah. Yep, and that was a big thing,
right? Because you had planned to have
this matching tattoo with your sister and you found.
Can you tell the story, please, Vanessa?
And hell yeah yeah. So I call this my ugly tattoo
(40:18):
story. And I was telling this story for
years in my codependency recovery groups.
And then I was like, oh, this has a place in the book as well.
Because what you're speaking to,right?
This choose me wound, it's like the center of so much of our
codependency work. And it's all about how we've
been programmed to contort and twist and change ourselves to
make other people comfortable, to make sure other people are
(40:38):
OK, right? To make sure that I've always
got a smile on my face and I'm always agreeable, right?
The good girl complex for a lot of us.
And so my sister and I during COVID, we wanted to get a
matching tattoo. It was kind of early days, so
people really weren't still surewhat was going on.
And a lot of the tattoo shops were closed.
There happened to be one that was open.
And so we just had a walk in appointment.
And immediately when I walked in, there was one tattoo artist
(41:00):
there. And I, I knew immediately in my
body, I did not like his energy.I just knew it.
I couldn't put a finger on it, right?
But it's like you have that knowing.
And so we showed him the pictureof what we wanted and it was
fine line. That's all the work that I have
on my body is done with very fine lines.
And he was like, oh, yeah, yeah,yeah, totally.
So easy. Very easy tattoo, super quick.
I'll do for both of you whatever.
(41:20):
And my everything, my body was just like, I don't like him.
I don't like him. I don't like this.
And then there was like, you know, there was a couple subtle
things, like he had a couple like, creepy comments he made to
my younger sister. And it was just watching myself
outside of myself, like, yeah, grit my teeth and kind of smile
and not along. And sure enough, sit down, get
this tattoo. And I look down and it is so the
(41:41):
opposite of fine line. It is so dark and so heavy and
so thick and just exactly the opposite of what I would have
ever wanted or gotten for myself.
And I didn't say no. I couldn't say no.
I didn't say no. I kept going.
And so now you know, part of me wants to get it removed, and
part of me realizes it's a forever reminder not to pull
(42:04):
that shit again. Awesome.
Well, I love that and you know, I, I think when I read that
story, I just was like, we can all relate to this.
It's like times when we've just totally bypassed what we know is
like not right for us and it's in service of you think it's you
think it's like just to keep thepeace or but and you end up with
a freaking tattoo for the rest of your life.
Well, no, you're looking at it removed.
(42:24):
But anyways, it's a good story. Even us.
I'm like it's just a good learning.
When I tell you, I mean obviously you have daughters
too. I'm like, I use that as an
example almost of like how I will make sure that my daughter
is not raised. I mean, she is.
So I don't know. This generation is so
fascinating to me because they are just raised with a language
and with an ability to just stand unapologetically and what
(42:45):
they want and who they are that,you know, there are times I'll
laugh, I'll say to my friend, how is she the daughter of a
people pleaser? It's fascinating to me.
And she'll be like, no, I do notwant that.
And I'm like, OK, fair enough, you know?
You know what? I, I really, I, I don't know
where I read this, but I actually do believe it to be
true. It's like each generation, and
this is not about becoming better than that's not what this
(43:09):
is about. But it's like, I really hope to
God that it's like we're taking our learnings and each
generation we are getting, we, we are like operating from our
true ourselves, right? And, and as as we learn and we
grow, we are evolving. That's the whole point of this,
right? And she's my guru, right?
(43:30):
I mean, I look at her everyday and I'm like, teach me.
Teach me the ways of not caring what other people think of.
You, you know. I need more of it, yeah.
We're here to be each other's teachers.
Like I'm not teaching my kids all the time.
They're teaching me so much and that's the beauty of life.
It really is. So I thank you for the work
you're doing in this world because it's very, it's very
(43:52):
important work and you're helping so many.
You've taught me so much. And thank you so much, Vanessa.
Thank you, Robin. I would say the same thing for
you. Just always, always in awe of
all the things you're doing and all the things you're bringing
to this world. So right back at you, sister.
I'm going to close with a blessing for us with your words
really from your learning this week.
(44:13):
OK. May we come together as
families, sisterhoods, and communities to extend ways to
support, listen, and uplift one another at all the stages of our
parenting journey. May we be reminded that every
step we take toward healing, even in the micro moments,
brings us closer to coming home to our true selves.
(44:35):
And maybe remember that the journey of self discovery, love
and life is ongoing, A lifelong process that invites us to
constantly grow and evolve. And I really, I hope that all of
our listeners take that to heartbecause we're all human.
We're here to do this together, Really love to to learn how to
(44:55):
grow and evolve together. And we need each other to do
that. That's right.
And it's a journey to your point.
It's never ending and that's notsaid.
And like, oh God, it's never ending way it's said.
It's like this is exciting. You forever and ever get to be
in a mode of discovery and learning and changing and
evolving and and that's actuallyreally beautiful.
It is it is so beautiful. So thank you, Vanessa Bennett,
(45:16):
thank you, Robin, thank you so much for being here with us.
Let's talk. Love is brought to you by Real
Love Ready and hosted by Robin Ducharme.
If you'd like to keep learning with us, visit realloveready.com
for more resources and tools to boost your relational skills and
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(45:37):
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what they need to hear. We at Real Love Ready
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Many blessings and much love.
Welcome to Let's Talk Love. I'm Robin Ducharme, and today
I'm thrilled to be joined by my dear friend Vanessa Bennett.
In this episode, we delve into the real life challenges and
triumphs of modern motherhood, inspired by Vanessa's new book,
The Motherhood Myth. Together, we explore the myths
(00:21):
and expectations that surround parenting, the importance of
community, and the journey of reclaiming our identities.
Join us as we share personal stories and insights, aiming to
inspire and support each other on this ever evolving path of
love and self discovery. Welcome to Let's Talk Love, the
(00:43):
podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert
insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted
voices in love and relationships, and they're here
for you with tools, information,and friendly advice to help you
expand the ways you love, relate, and communicate.
We tackle the big questions, notshying away from the complex,
(01:05):
the messy, the awkward, and the joyful parts of relationships.
I'm your host, Robin Ducharne. Now let's Talk love.
Hello everyone and welcome to Let's TALK.
Love. Yeah, I'm so happy that you're
(01:26):
here today watching and listening.
We're in our new podcast studio in Victoria, BC and I'm so happy
that today, as we're starting this new time at REAL LOVE
Ready, I'm joined by my friend Vanessa Bennett, somebody that I
love and adore and I've worked with quite a few times over the
years. You were one of our experts at
(01:48):
In Bloom in Vancouver 2 April's ago.
Well, 1 1/2 And I've learned so much from you, Vanessa, and I
really am. I'm just excited for this
conversation. Thank you for being here,
darling. I'm so glad to be here, Robin.
It's good to see you. I'm holding up your book and I
think yes, OK, this week I had the joy and look, she matches
the back my our new background, Vanessa.
(02:10):
She's so pretty. You know when you have a book
and you're like, God, she's pretty.
Your book is beautiful inside and out, just like you and I'm,
and I'm saying that from the heart, with just so much truth
and reverence. The motherhood myth.
The Adept Therapist guide to Redefine parenting, reimagine
Intimacy, and reclaim the self. And I know you've been running
(02:35):
around all over the world doing your book tour and talking about
this beautiful, important piece of work.
I learned a lot from you this week.
And I, you know, talking about just how in motherhood things
have changed. There's so many expectations of
us. Let's start with why you thought
was so important to write this book and your experience.
(02:55):
Yeah, I think that, you know, already having been a therapist
prior to having my daughter, already kind of being on this
journey, learning through relationships and really
committed to that path, right, of like self-awareness, self
betterment. I was really unprepared for how
much of a fire under my ass having my daughter was going to
(03:16):
light. And I felt like when she was
about maybe about two, maybe a year and a half, two years old,
I just started looking around being like, is this real life?
Like no one prepared me for this.
I feel like I, I'm like screaming into the void, you
know, and just thought, God, we've got to be talking about
this. And it, it wasn't just the
motherhood struggles. It was the, it was the
(03:38):
relational struggles with my partner.
It was the the struggles to comeback to a sense of self.
I mean, everything was just mixed up in one big soup.
I just felt like I wasn't hearing or reading people
talking about it in the way thatI wanted to to talk about it.
Exactly there, there's just this.
I know because I've got 3 kids, right?
(03:59):
And I remember, I remember that going through this with my first
daughter, Maya, it was like you have all of the, you're
surrounded by the myths that it's going to be just this
blissful. I had the birth plan like you
did, Vanessa, like of so many moms do.
And nobody really tells you likeI I had a midwife and the the
(04:19):
the doulas, the midwives, even your friends, they're not
telling you fuck the birth plan.Like really, it's probably not
going to happen. It's good to have in in theory,
but it's probably not going to end up the way that you envision
because it's just like it's labor, right?
It's just like you never know what's going to happen.
But then just how as moms, it's like so hard to prepare for
because you're taking in a new role that you would know nothing
(04:41):
about. That's right.
That's one of the myths that youshare in the book around.
It's not it's even though it's natural part of human nature to
have the children. How do we step into that role?
And it's it's a whole new learning from the very start.
Yeah. You know, I tell you I wrote
about this in the book, But I had a client who I saw for a few
years and we actually paused ourwork when I went on maternity
(05:04):
leave right before I had my daughter.
And she at the time had her daughter was like 2.
And after I had Logan, I reachedback out to her maybe a year or
so later to reconnect. And I specifically wanted to
reconnect because I wanted to apologize to her for what I felt
like were a lot of my blind spots as a therapist.
(05:24):
And, you know, she was very kindand was like, what are you
talking about? We did so much great work
together. And I was like, no, I need you
to hear me. Like, I really believe as a
therapist. And you know, listen, we're
trained as therapist with this idea of you can hold somebody
with positive regard no matter what.
You can connect with somebody nomatter their story, no matter
(05:45):
their journey, and you can stillprovide a light.
And while I believe that's true on the other side of becoming a
mother, I firmly believe that there are two areas that as
therapists, I really think it's it's more helpful that somebody
connect with somebody who's had the shared experience.
And that is race and that is motherhood.
And it it just became so clear to me that there were just going
(06:06):
to be blind spots that I could not feel into without having
gone down that path myself. And what let's talk about the
story that you shared with your client, because I think
something that is so what's so important to me and you too, and
the client you're talking about,it's like we are this full woman
right before having babies, but we also want to have the babies.
(06:27):
I did. And it was just something that I
knew was part of my life path. And I was blessed to be able to
have kids. And it was like, OK, But then I
also wanted to step back into being a career person.
Like I loved where I love work and and being of service to the
world and just it gives me so much joy and so much purpose.
And I also want to be with my friends and I want to like all
(06:49):
the things travel. Like, you know, all of that is
still me and I'm now having haveto have a child.
So navigating all of it. It's just this there's so much
expectation, but myth around. It's like we can have it all.
Like, you talk about that in thebook Vanessa, right?
Yeah. I mean, this idea of you can
have it all, right? I think so much of what I did
when I was writing this book wasbecause for my own purposes, I
(07:11):
really like to understand the how we got here.
That is so important for me. And so this book is like part
anthropology, part sociology, part psychology, right?
And this idea of you could have it all.
I started looking into the different generations of
feminism and how we kind of got to this place as women, you
know, in our generations. It's like millennial Gen.
X kind of generations that we'rein right now as parents.
(07:34):
And it really became so apparentto me that that generation of
feminism that was really like our mothers and grandmothers
generation, Well, amazing work and amazing things have come
from their work, right? One of the myths that I think
came out of that was this idea of two things.
One, you have to act more like aman to be taken seriously and to
be respected, right, Which I think did a real number on, on
(07:58):
women in particular. Not.
Our senses of self. And the other one really is
around this idea of what it looks like to have it all.
And I think this myth impacts both men and women in different
ways. But for women, it was like, you
can have the career, you can have the kid, you can have the
relationship, you can have all of it.
And part of that myth was you can do it all.
And God, what a recipe for burnout, right?
(08:20):
And so you're seeing now the generation of us who were raised
by women who were kind of at theforefront of that.
And we're all looking around being like, no, this is, this is
too much. Like, I don't actually want all
of this. It's exhausting.
And I can't keep my head above water.
It is too much thinking about. I don't know.
I think what it is. It's like I think about you.
(08:41):
You talked, I love that, that you dissected different
generations and how like we wereraised.
So I it's funny because I get all confused.
Gen. X, thank you for reminding me of
that in your book. But it was like back in the day
when we were kids, right? It was how we were even
parented. My mom was a stay at home mom.
She was career person before shehad us.
My dad was working all the time.But as kids it was like there
(09:04):
was that independence that was just totally ingrained in us.
It's like come back at dark, dinner will be ready by like
5530. None of us even wore watches
back then. We sure as hell didn't have cell
phones and we loved it. I mean the freedom of it.
I mean, that's just how we were raised to be quite
self-sufficient, right? But then our parenting has
shifted like a pendulum now on this side right?
(09:25):
Where now it's like because we were kind of under parented, we
as parents are over parenting. The pendulum has completely
swung to the other side like thehelicopter parenting and keeping
our kids completely busy all thetime.
Like my parents used to give me shit.
Like don't use the word bored. That word is not allowed in our
household. I don't care if you're bored,
right? Yep.
And now our kids are like, I'm bored.
(09:46):
It's like, OK, well how can we keep you busy?
Here's a screen, here's a show. Like go do your sports.
Like do 5 sports in a week. It's exhausting and, and the
research is showing that we're actually creating and I, you
know, I say this delicately because I know that parents,
especially mothers, already takeon a ridiculous amount of guilt
and shame around the ways that we're screwing our kids up.
(10:08):
But the research is showing thatit has detrimental impacts on
our kids emotional and mental health, right?
We've got the most anxious kids now.
We've got the most depressed kids now.
They're exhausted, they're burntout.
There was actually a new research study that just came
out recently talking about kids on screens.
And it was saying that kids havebeen reporting that the reason
why in particular they want to be on screens more is because
(10:29):
essentially it's the only place in their life where they can be
alone and, and unsupervised by adults like we used to have.
Because kids do crave that. They crave that unstructured
alone time with their peers. And so because they're not
getting it out in the real world, they're finding it in
online spaces. So it, it's just, we've got to
be able to look at, yes, what isworking?
(10:52):
What can we learn from those previous generations?
How can we kind of tweak and adjust without swinging it so
far to the other side of the pendulum that now we're actually
not, you know, not on purpose creating our own brand of harm
by the way that we're parenting?Yes.
And you know what, I think what I really took away from your
book, Vanessa on like this, likethis macro level, it was that
(11:14):
it's just understanding us in our societies and our cultures
and how this is that awareness is, is such an important thing
and learning and then applying tools so that once we have that
awareness, OK, this is not the right way.
How can we do some corrections here?
It's not to be in a place of blame.
It's not to be in a place of shame.
Because guess what? It's like we can look back on
(11:35):
our parent, on our parents and be like, oh really?
We're so screwed up in this way and this way, this way.
And actually I don't want to be,I don't want to talk like that.
I don't want to think like that because here I am as a 48 year
old woman and I'm like, I am becoming.
And actually it's happened. I'm, I'm my mother and my
father. It's a fact.
It's official. I'm totally my.
Parents same, girl same. But but you know what?
I've believed that I've taken the good that that my parents
(11:57):
gave me and that I inherited andall, and the things that I want
to correct, the things that I know, oh, that was not so good.
I'm making corrections in that way so that I don't want to
repeat those patterns in my lifeand with my children.
But that comes out of your ability to see and hold your
upbringing objectively, which a lot of us really struggle to do.
(12:19):
And I would say the same goes for seeing ourselves within the
societal structures that we livein, right?
Because being able to hold that objective reality is what allows
you to depersonalize. That's what allows you to go.
I see the way that I am living within the structures of, let's
say, these dominator models of society, right?
So patriarchy, capitalism, whitesupremacy.
(12:42):
I see the way that I'm functioning.
I see how it's impacted me that that means that I'm not
inherently bad. It means that I'm a byproduct of
a system. And so now that I can
depersonalize that I can remove the shame and now I can correct
the behavior that doesn't actually feel aligned.
It doesn't actually feel like mytruth.
But so long as I'm not able to see it objectively, I will
(13:03):
forever stay in that kind of shame loop around there's
something wrong with me that I'macting this way or I have these,
you know, these patterns that I don't like or whatever The thing
is. And that's why, again, going
back to this idea of how do we get here.
That's why I felt like it was soimportant because we need a
rally cry. We need to be able to say, OK,
like these systems that we're living in do not work.
And so the second you can see that, you can go, oh, yeah, I
(13:25):
can actually step forward with my comrades and say, let's go
against the system. It's not personal, you know.
That's, that's right. I think this is such an
education for us, like, because you are going into, like you
said, it's an anthropology, it'san anthropological discovery.
Like these are things, this is our history.
This is how we got here. And these are the pervasive
(13:46):
myths that actually and patternsthat we are surrounded by,
they're not going away unless all of us actually do wake up
and start making some changes. So, but first, first it is the
awareness. And then it's like, how do you
make what, what changes can we make?
Right, right, right. So loss of village.
That's a that's a big theme in in your book, right?
And how and how important community is.
(14:11):
So can we, can we talk about that?
Because I think that a lot of people are like, don't really
understand, OK, well, how do I build community?
I understand that back in the day, our children were raised by
a village for sure, right? But we're not there now.
So what do we do? Like how does that impact like
how we are now? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of
(14:31):
us are familiar with this idea of the village and we know that
it it's this kind of thing that existed Once Upon a time, right?
I think one of the things that was so eye opening for me when I
was doing the research was this isn't an idea of something that
was a long, long time ago in a fairy tale.
There are still models or societies right now that are
currently existing like we're talking about.
(14:53):
And I actually thought that was really important to understand
because it's attainable right now in this world, because it
exists right now in this world, right?
And so that really helped me understand, like there are
things that I can do, I might not be able to completely alter
the structure of our society, but there are individual steps
that I can take to try to bring some more of that kind of
(15:15):
communal, family, village oriented way of, of parenting
and partnering, right? Because at the end of the day,
our species would never have survived.
If we were structured to have one, maybe two adults taking
care of children, we would not have survived.
You know, there's a lot of research around this idea to
like with attachment, for example, we're so obsessed with
(15:35):
attachment in this culture and we were not designed as beings
to have one primary attachment figure.
We were designed to have multiple attachment figures,
right? Each attachment figure kind of
giving us something different. Like your grandmother would give
you something different than your mother, than your auntie,
than your cousin, than your stepbrother, than your whatever,
right? So each of these people would
(15:56):
kind of give us something different.
As that got smaller and smaller and smaller, we started putting
more and more emphasis on our like one primary attachment
figure, right? So even when you look at
attachment research, this was what the 50s, sixties, 70s, when
all of this conversations were being had around attachment.
And so even that research was done, host community post when
we didn't have access to that anymore.
(16:17):
So how reliable? I'm starting to question, how
reliable is that information even really when that's not how
our species was actually designed to live and to thrive,
right? So what it did for me was start
saying I have to let go a littlebit.
I actually cannot be, nor shouldI be my daughter's everything.
It's detrimental to her, her development, her well-being, her
(16:39):
ability to relate from a solid sense of self, Like I am
actually hindering her by makingme the center of her universe,
right? And so I really started leaning
into this idea. I mean, unfortunately,
obviously, you know, we lost ourcommunity in the fires in
January, but prior to that in our street, we had started
recreating this. We had multiple families, we all
had kids. It was the very like doors were
(17:00):
open. Kids were running back and forth
like we were when we were younger.
Yes. And I was putting so much
emphasis on that because we started realizing how important
it was for my daughter to be able to lean on, let's say my
good friend and neighbor Meredith for certain things that
she wasn't going to get from me,right?
And vice versa. And so it's possible, but it
just takes work, right? Have you read there's a quote or
(17:23):
something that's been going around recently?
I've been thinking about it thatsomebody said I'm going to
butcher it, but it's something like the price we pay for
community is inconvenience. Oh, I've never heard that, but
that's great. I mean really, what is that?
We've convenienced ourself out of community, right?
And I'm, it's starting to blow my mind because I'm like, that's
(17:45):
exactly what it is. It's so much easier for me to
deliver my groceries to my houseso I can keep working.
But in that hour or two hours that I go to the grocery store,
I'm engaging with my community, my local grocery store, the
people who work there. I'm going to run into my
neighbors, right? So I've started being like, oh
shit, we've got to really start weighing inconvenience versus
community and and start thinkingabout that in a different way.
(18:08):
I agree. I agree.
I I was thinking about when I was raised, we were surrounded
by people at all times, like whether it was, you know, my
dad's side of the family, my mom's side of the family,
regular family dinners every single Sunday at my grandparents
house. It was just and my mom always
had lots of friends. My dad too, customers like back
in those days. I, I sound so funny.
(18:29):
I've been dating those words a lot of days in those days, those
days like my dad used to bring it the customers families to our
summer cabin every single summer.
It's like and we'd say, oh, we kind of complain right.
My dad's like these aren't just my business partners.
These are my friends and go havefun jump in the lake like it was
that is community, right. Yeah, beautiful.
(18:50):
So something that I really, I, Oh my gosh, I love this part of
the book, Vanessa, about mothering martyrdom is not
mothering and how martyrdom is quite prevalent, right?
It's like the moms are giving, have been giving up who they are
thinking that it's in service ofthe children, right?
(19:13):
But really a lot of it is self-serving because if, if
you're not going to accept the help from your spouse or you
know, let's say, let's say you are Co parenting with your
partner. You see this all the time.
You hear it all the time, right?He or she can't do it the way
that I'm doing it, so I'm just going to do it.
Yep, and and your community likenot asking for help from your
(19:34):
community too, right, Not even just your spouse, but this
again, it's the blueprint that we've been handed.
You know it, it's not just women, but let's say generally
speaking, we are talking more ofthe mother in this situation
where women have been handed a blueprint in the West, that
being a self effacing kind of give everything.
(19:55):
You know, when you think of women, you think of piety and
you think of virtue and you think of kindness and you think
of all these all these things, right?
That that is what it means to bea good woman, a good partner, a
good sister, a good friend, a good mother, right.
And again, part of the book is me saying, where did this come
from? Is this, is this how it's always
been? Because I just don't believe
that this is the truth. And sure enough, when you start
(20:18):
to pull the threads and you start to go in the research,
right. So everyone of the chapters in
my book, I have what I call either an archetypal form or an
archetypal story, a myth, right?I call it myths as maps.
And the image, the archetype that I used in this chapter is
one that I know is going to kindof irk a lot of people.
And it's the archetype of MotherMary.
It's the archetype of the virginal mother.
(20:38):
And I started questioning, you know, where do we get this
description of who Mary was is right to us?
And I started kind of again, going back in time and doing the
research and realizing how Mary herself is actually a composite
of a few different goddess figures that were around during
the time that Christianity was spreading, right?
(20:59):
Because we know that a lot of Christianity is actually kind of
been taken over from paganism because we tried to get people
to convert in an easy way. And so even Mary herself is kind
of a composite because it was what was comfortable for those
who didn't worship Mary, right, as as who she was.
And I started looking at some ofthe composites and I thought,
how interesting that when we look at like Collie, for
(21:21):
example, who is the archetype ofthe mother, she's also the
archetype of death. She is the goddess of both birth
and of death. She's terrifying to look at.
She wears a string of skulls around her neck, right?
And she's the archetype of motherhood at the same time.
And I started thinking to myself, isn't it fascinating
(21:42):
that in every other basically region of the world, we honor
the mother as both life and death.
We honor both the dark and the light of the woman, of
femininity, of motherhood. And I started looking at how
again, these kind of like, let'stake off all these personality
structures of Mother Mary started being used as a way to
(22:04):
give women like, this is how youshould be in order to be looked
at as a good woman, a Good Wife,right?
Again, a good mother. And I started thinking, geez,
all of these blueprints have essentially been constructed to
control. They've been constructed as a
way to keep women and men reallyin line, not questioning, not
challenging, right? Head down, stay a cog in the
(22:26):
system and stay in your shame. You're never going to achieve
that. By the way, no human woman is
ever going to achieve this created myth of of who Mother
Mary is, right? So good luck stay trying for the
rest of your life. You'll be failing right.
And so anyway, I mean, there's kind of a long winded way to to
talk about martyrdom. But again, it was this eye
(22:48):
opening experience for me where I started going.
Where did we get this idea that to be a good mother was to
sacrifice everything and give tothe point of depletion.
It's nonsense. And so that was part of part of
my kind of pushing back in this chapter.
It is absolute nonsense, but it also what you point out is how
it's not giving our children themodeling on what it is to be to
(23:12):
to have a fulfilled life, right?If everything in me as a mother
to my children is all about them, how what am I showing them
like? That's right.
Actually, my life is, I was talking to my partner Hector
about this yesterday. I was like, I want my kids to
see me as a full person, just like I want them to grow into
(23:34):
whatever it is that they want tobe and do in this life.
Because you are going to be a mother, but that's not your only
thing that you're going to be inthis world, right?
What else do you want to do? What's going to light you up?
What's going to give you joy? Because that's how you're going
to be able to be the best parentyou can be.
I believe that. Yeah.
And I think that it's really important for us to always
remind ourselves that children learn by what they see, not by
(23:57):
what they hear. So our daughters are watching us
to see a blueprint of how to be a woman in this world to how to
be a partner in this world, to how to be a mother in this
world, right? And our sons are looking at us,
assuming they're heterosexual, as what they want as a blueprint
and a partner, right? And so if I want to your point,
my daughter to live her most fulfilled, most passionate, most
(24:19):
wildly unbridled and full of arrows life, I have to be doing
the same for myself. She's watching me to see how
it's done right. And so it's so important.
And and to your point, it's like, and listen to those moms
who are like, motherhood is my greatest joy.
I love that. That's amazing.
And still, what else? Like, what else is there for
(24:41):
you? What else fills you up?
What else brings you joy? Talk about it.
Go for it. Spend time there because you're
giving them permission to do thesame thing.
Yes, something that I wanted to talk with the story that you
share about your client Candace around this right, because I
think this is so common. Vanessa she's a woman she was 36
(25:01):
years old. She wanted to be a stylist for,
you know, but she's got her kidsat home.
She's and she was freaking out about going away for the
weekend, right? But you had been working for her
for about a year at this point. And she said you don't
understand. I can't leave them for an entire
weekend with their dad. You won't feed them right?
They'll fight all weekend or just get sat in front of the TV
(25:22):
and they probably won't even getproper baths or brush their
teeth right. I think this this is just one of
those things that just like prevail.
It just prevails in our society.It's like the whoever the other
parent that's not there all the time, they're not going to do a
good enough job. The kids are going to suffer.
It's like, what a load of BS like that.
Actually, it like when I read that, I was like, I I've heard
this so many times and I, I knowI probably have thought it
(25:43):
myself like back in the day whenmy kids were little.
Yeah. But it's like, first of all,
you're not the be all and end all.
And it's like it actually doesn't, it doesn't really give
your partner a lot of credit, does it?
It actually just says like, likemy kids are going to like perish
without me. I know, and this this goes back
to this idea again of saying like our children need to have
multiple attachments in their life.
(26:04):
We can't be their end all be alland Becca, they can't be ours
either, which is what happens sooften in examples like that,
right? Because the challenge working
with Candace was around this idea of you've turned them into
so much of your everything that your sense of self and sense of
purpose is wrapped up on two people that you have 0 control
(26:24):
over. They're their own individual
beings and souls. You don't own them, you don't
control them. So what happens when they no
longer need you or they they rebuff your your advances and
wanting to help, right? What are you going to do?
And it doesn't always have to bejob and career, but going back
to what we were saying before, like, what else is there, right?
(26:45):
Because the more we pedestalize,actually, it's funny today, and
I were just having a conversation about this
yesterday, We were talking aboutthe way that we as humans
dehumanize other humans. And what we were saying is it's
not just dehumanizing in like the negative way, like they're
bad. They don't agree with me, so
they're lesser than. We also dehumanize when we
pedestalize people. It's the same process of
(27:08):
dehumanizing because you're not,you're not real, You're not a
fully formed human. You're not, you don't have light
and dark, right? Like I only see you in this one
way. And I think it's really scary
because we do that with our children.
We pedestalize them or we place ourselves on a pedestal.
And so there's actually a process of dehumanizing in that
that I think is icky, but reallyimportant for us to look at.
(27:30):
And going back to touch on what you said, we do a, we do a
number on our, on our relationships when we are so set
in, it's got to be my way or no way.
Not only do we tell the other person that we don't trust them,
that we think they're incompetent, right, and
incapable, but we also tell our children that that other person
is incompetent and incapable. And so that is what they will
(27:51):
believe about that parent as well, right?
And it will impact their relationship with that parent as
well. It absolutely will.
Yeah, it absolutely will. So I wanted to go back to the
cult of busy. So this this really is like a
really big problem in our society is how we are so
consumed by being busy. And you know, you talk about
(28:13):
like the art or I don't know if it's the words art, but it's
like learning the unbusy or learning the undoing the non
doing. And.
How and, and it's actually an active state.
This is something that I have just like in my life, I have
adopted and it's changed. It's changed so much in me
because I'm no longer filling mycalendar just to fill it.
(28:35):
I was before it was like I and even I don't even like to use
the word busy. Like I don't want to use that
word anymore because like that to me is not like fantastic to
be like I'm so busy. Like I actually don't really
like, yes, I've got lots to do and I've and I'm going to
prioritize my time actually in, in such a, in a, in a more
balanced way. Now I'm very deliberate on like
(28:57):
creating more space in my life, but I don't, I don't think we're
there as a society. No, and I mean, look at we have
to also say that there's a lot of people who the idea of having
space in their life is a privilege, right?
I mean, that's we've gotten ourselves as a society so into,
you know, people are killing themselves just to put food on
the table. They're barely surviving, right?
(29:17):
And again, this is on purpose. This is all on purpose because
if we had space and we had time to question and we had time to
rest and we had time, then we have time to think.
And then we have time again to challenge these systems that
keep us perpetually busy so thatwe do not ask the larger
questions. We do not say, what do I really
want for myself in this life? What fulfills me?
(29:41):
What you know, And so part againwas me saying, question why you
feel like you have to be perpetually busy.
And I'm guilty of it too, right?This is not like me saying.
Me too. Anybody.
I mean, shit, I was just having a conversation with John
yesterday about it with Costa Rica.
Right where I said, I looked around and I went, wow, I'm
trying to fill my calendar. I'm, I'm feeling guilty that I
(30:03):
have a light day and that I can go to the beach in the middle of
the day and I'm watching it happen.
We're all kind of guilty of this.
It's the society that we live in.
But it is a sickness and it and it is, I call it a cult for a
reason, you know? So how are you like, how are you
helping people with that? Like what would be some ways
that we can just even like, tellme what, what are you doing in
(30:24):
your own life? Like like you just said, it's
just like it's just being aware,like becoming OK, I'm doing
this. I'm actually going to take put
it in my calendar that I'm goingto take an hour just to do do
nothing. I mean, that's one big way.
And I, I've been doing that for years, which is like if I don't
schedule in movement, if I don'tschedule in a workout, it won't
get done. So for years I've been putting
(30:44):
it on my calendar and I treat itlike a meeting and it can't be
moved, right. So that's definitely one way to
do it. And you have to guard it.
You can't let other people kind of sway you, if you will.
That's one way. The other way that I, I like to
talk about a lot. I think I even talked about this
in the book was I had a moment when I was reading Untamed
Forever Ago by Glennon Doyle where I loved that part where
(31:05):
she talks about watching Abby sitting watching soccer and how
she noticed. She was kept saying she was just
so bad. Yes, and so I've used that with
clients so often since I've readthat, which is like noticing
that voice in your mind that does the must be nice because
we've all got it. And when that must be night,
well, not I shouldn't say we've all got it.
(31:26):
Those of us who have been kind of raised to hustle and raised
in this kind of over functioning, I have to prove my
sense of worth by producing and achieving, right?
We're the ones that tend to havethat voice more ingrained.
So notice when the must be nice creeps in and question it.
Pay attention to it, turn towards it with compassion.
(31:48):
We don't need to judge ourselvesfor it.
But where does that come from? Why does this person, in my
mind, have to justify their rest?
Why do they have to ask permission to rest?
And why do I feel like I have toask permission to rest?
Right, because you know this, but always, always when
something is activating about somebody else, there's an
(32:08):
opportunity there for us to turnand run in ourselves and say,
what's going on internally for me, right?
What is that projection? What's the hook there into my
shadow? And so that must be nice.
I think it's a really good way to like turn inward and do some
of that shadow work around busyness and worth.
Yeah, that's what so much of like that's so much that your
work is. It's about its depth, depth
(32:30):
psychology, right? It's so much about introspection
and our soul and how it's like, it's like the marriage between
me individual and the collectiveand just all of it, right?
My body, spirit, soul, shadow work.
I've just started, like I don't,I don't know if a lot of people
even understand what that is like.
Can you give us a really brief what, what is that 'cause I've
(32:51):
just started learning more aboutthis Vanessa.
Like I didn't really know a lot about even what that meant.
What shadow? Can you explain it to us?
Yeah, so shadow is AI mean. It's a Jungian term.
And you know, there's a couple more modern takes on shadow work
that have become very successfuland make a lot of money, but
don't really give credit where credit's due.
(33:11):
So shadow work is really about understanding that as we grow
up, there are parts of ourselvesthat society, our family of
origin, perhaps our school, perhaps our, you know, our
community. People are saying no, that's not
acceptable. You know, you can't, you can't
act like like that. You can't be like that.
That part of you is not acceptable.
(33:32):
And for whatever reason. And so as we learn to move
through the world, we, we slowlytake those parts of ourselves
and we put them in what Jung called the shadow, right?
And kind of lock the key. And as we're creating the
shadow, we're simultaneously kind of creating the persona,
which is this is the way I will move through the world.
This is the mask that I will wear so that I am socially
acceptable. Now, to a certain extent that's
(33:53):
necessary. We live in a, a social society.
We learn the social rules and how to move and how to exist,
right? But what happens when the shadow
is not looked at is it actually is the thing that's calling the
shots. It lives in the unconscious.
It they, whatever components we're talking about are
relegated to the unconscious andis so long as they are in the
unconscious, they have far more control over how we act than we
(34:17):
want to believe that they do. And so it seems scary to us to
actually look at these parts of ourselves, but the more we bring
bring them into the light and work to integrate them, the less
control over us they actually have.
So I'll give a quick example because it was really helpful
for me when I first started doing shadow work when I was in
grad school. I remember there was a woman
that was in my cohort who would sit in the front in the middle
(34:41):
every class and would get on these kind of like what I would
call like a tangent where she would be in almost like a
one-on-one dialogue with the teacher, seemingly unaware of
anybody else around her, right? So just asking questions about
her own experience and her personal experience and what?
And it was like nobody else existed, right?
And around her, we would all be like, hello, like, can we get
(35:03):
back to the teaching or like, can we at least talk about
something that's relevant to theother 30 people in the room,
Right. And she had this pattern of
doing it a lot. So Danae and I to talk about her
again, my best friend, we were doing shadow work in class.
And I brought this up and she said, you know, what's
interesting about that is what, what are the ways or like the
character of personality traits do you find so activating about
(35:25):
this person? And I said, well, there's a
seeming like like a selfishness or like a takes up so much space
with disregard to everybody around her, right.
And so we obviously went one way, which was like, well, who
else in your life, you know, parental figures that like had
this kind of personality and that's why it's so activating
for you. Then we went to shadow, which is
(35:45):
I wonder if there's parts of youwho wish you could take up more
space. You wish that you weren't always
so concerned with everybody else.
With everybody else. Being OK all the time and it was
like, like I remember my head just like exploding and being
like, Oh my God. She activates me because there
(36:05):
is some part of me that feels jealous of her ability to just
be like, I don't give a shit about anybody else, it's all
about me. Now, do I want to live exactly
like that? No.
But there is a part of me that wishes I wasn't so always
concerned about everybody else in the room, Right?
And so that's just an example ofhow you actually could tangibly
(36:25):
work with activation as a way todo your own shadow work.
Right. So I think what your story
around Candace also illustrated was that shadow work, for
instance, right? It's like what you helped her
see was that by her actually notwanting to go out, Like she, she
was making all these excuses really for not wanting to go
(36:46):
away for the weekend to really learn more about her craft that
she wanted to, you know, she wanted to become a stylist, but
she was hiding behind those excuses because of her fear,
right? That's right, of not succeeding,
not being great at being a stylist or, or being, or somehow
being replaced by her husband orher kids, not turning to her for
everything because she was getting so much out of that,
(37:07):
right. So that would be an example of
the shadow showing itself to herso that, so that actually she
could address that part of herself.
It's, it's nothing that we need to fear looking at our shadow
sides. And, and actually, the truth is
we need to look at the shadow sides of ourselves because we
both we all have dark and light and shadow, right?
That's right, that's right. And and that's it.
I mean, it's, it's being able tolook at these different
(37:29):
individual parts of ourselves and bring them into the light
with compassion and with understanding, right?
Because that's really what they're desiring.
They're desiring to be seen. They're desiring to be heard and
understood so that you can say, oh, I can understand why you
feel that way. That makes sense, right?
You don't have to do that anymore because you can trust
that I've got this. Like, it's OK, even if I am
(37:52):
rejected by a job, right? Like let's use Candace as the
example. Even if my kids do start to
learn more on their dad and it starts to make me question my
role and my worth and my value as a mother, I, it's OK for me
to look at that and I'm going tobe OK through that process,
right? So yeah, to your point, that's a
really good example of how we can use something like that to
(38:13):
be able to see those parts of ourselves.
Yes, and the great thing is thatshe did go on that weekend and
she did start pursuing what was giving her joy and lit her up
and and that, you know, like allthe things you just talked
about, like all that did probably happen, right?
The dynamics of her family changed.
(38:33):
Yes, she but she was raised up in order to like, it's all it
all work works out, right? Yeah.
And look at it wasn't perfect, right?
She still struggles. Nothing perfect.
There's nothing perfect. And also, like, her kids got a
lot more resilient. Her kids were able to, like,
stop relying on her for so much.She started feeling a little bit
of breathing room, and it was terrifying for her.
And also it was great for everybody involved.
(38:56):
Yeah, and you point out in your book so many times over and over
again, the paradox in life. I mean, it's full of it at all
times, right? That's right.
So that's right. I can I can be grieving right
now. But also, you know, laugh like,
you know, we, we, we as enjoying.
We can hold the dichotomy. That's right.
I just think that's right. We there's a lot of grey.
OK, I want to talk about the story you shared.
(39:16):
It was so good, Vanessa, becauseI think as women, we've or
people, we've done this before the tattoo story.
Oh my gosh, this is all a part of like the let me see.
Keep holding up again. I want to see.
This notice how all of my work is so like dainty and pretty and
then you have this like giant black dark tattoo.
(39:37):
So for those who are not watching.
It's just. Very dense.
Yes, but you know, this story illustrates how so this is part
like this was like part of your choose me wound how right around
how we will bypass our own innerknowing because it's like that's
(39:57):
like we're so we were so we're so programmed to do that, like a
lot and in order to not what would you say not like?
Rock the boat like not rock. The boat.
Yeah. Yep, and that was a big thing,
right? Because you had planned to have
this matching tattoo with your sister and you found.
Can you tell the story, please, Vanessa?
And hell yeah yeah. So I call this my ugly tattoo
(40:18):
story. And I was telling this story for
years in my codependency recovery groups.
And then I was like, oh, this has a place in the book as well.
Because what you're speaking to,right?
This choose me wound, it's like the center of so much of our
codependency work. And it's all about how we've
been programmed to contort and twist and change ourselves to
make other people comfortable, to make sure other people are
(40:38):
OK, right? To make sure that I've always
got a smile on my face and I'm always agreeable, right?
The good girl complex for a lot of us.
And so my sister and I during COVID, we wanted to get a
matching tattoo. It was kind of early days, so
people really weren't still surewhat was going on.
And a lot of the tattoo shops were closed.
There happened to be one that was open.
And so we just had a walk in appointment.
And immediately when I walked in, there was one tattoo artist
(41:00):
there. And I, I knew immediately in my
body, I did not like his energy.I just knew it.
I couldn't put a finger on it, right?
But it's like you have that knowing.
And so we showed him the pictureof what we wanted and it was
fine line. That's all the work that I have
on my body is done with very fine lines.
And he was like, oh, yeah, yeah,yeah, totally.
So easy. Very easy tattoo, super quick.
I'll do for both of you whatever.
(41:20):
And my everything, my body was just like, I don't like him.
I don't like him. I don't like this.
And then there was like, you know, there was a couple subtle
things, like he had a couple like, creepy comments he made to
my younger sister. And it was just watching myself
outside of myself, like, yeah, grit my teeth and kind of smile
and not along. And sure enough, sit down, get
this tattoo. And I look down and it is so the
(41:41):
opposite of fine line. It is so dark and so heavy and
so thick and just exactly the opposite of what I would have
ever wanted or gotten for myself.
And I didn't say no. I couldn't say no.
I didn't say no. I kept going.
And so now you know, part of me wants to get it removed, and
part of me realizes it's a forever reminder not to pull
(42:04):
that shit again. Awesome.
Well, I love that and you know, I, I think when I read that
story, I just was like, we can all relate to this.
It's like times when we've just totally bypassed what we know is
like not right for us and it's in service of you think it's you
think it's like just to keep thepeace or but and you end up with
a freaking tattoo for the rest of your life.
Well, no, you're looking at it removed.
(42:24):
But anyways, it's a good story. Even us.
I'm like it's just a good learning.
When I tell you, I mean obviously you have daughters
too. I'm like, I use that as an
example almost of like how I will make sure that my daughter
is not raised. I mean, she is.
So I don't know. This generation is so
fascinating to me because they are just raised with a language
and with an ability to just stand unapologetically and what
(42:45):
they want and who they are that,you know, there are times I'll
laugh, I'll say to my friend, how is she the daughter of a
people pleaser? It's fascinating to me.
And she'll be like, no, I do notwant that.
And I'm like, OK, fair enough, you know?
You know what? I, I really, I, I don't know
where I read this, but I actually do believe it to be
true. It's like each generation, and
this is not about becoming better than that's not what this
(43:09):
is about. But it's like, I really hope to
God that it's like we're taking our learnings and each
generation we are getting, we, we are like operating from our
true ourselves, right? And, and as as we learn and we
grow, we are evolving. That's the whole point of this,
right? And she's my guru, right?
(43:30):
I mean, I look at her everyday and I'm like, teach me.
Teach me the ways of not caring what other people think of.
You, you know. I need more of it, yeah.
We're here to be each other's teachers.
Like I'm not teaching my kids all the time.
They're teaching me so much and that's the beauty of life.
It really is. So I thank you for the work
you're doing in this world because it's very, it's very
(43:52):
important work and you're helping so many.
You've taught me so much. And thank you so much, Vanessa.
Thank you, Robin. I would say the same thing for
you. Just always, always in awe of
all the things you're doing and all the things you're bringing
to this world. So right back at you, sister.
I'm going to close with a blessing for us with your words
really from your learning this week.
(44:13):
OK. May we come together as
families, sisterhoods, and communities to extend ways to
support, listen, and uplift one another at all the stages of our
parenting journey. May we be reminded that every
step we take toward healing, even in the micro moments,
brings us closer to coming home to our true selves.
(44:35):
And maybe remember that the journey of self discovery, love
and life is ongoing, A lifelong process that invites us to
constantly grow and evolve. And I really, I hope that all of
our listeners take that to heartbecause we're all human.
We're here to do this together, Really love to to learn how to
(44:55):
grow and evolve together. And we need each other to do
that. That's right.
And it's a journey to your point.
It's never ending and that's notsaid.
And like, oh God, it's never ending way it's said.
It's like this is exciting. You forever and ever get to be
in a mode of discovery and learning and changing and
evolving and and that's actuallyreally beautiful.
It is it is so beautiful. So thank you, Vanessa Bennett,
(45:16):
thank you, Robin, thank you so much for being here with us.
Let's talk. Love is brought to you by Real
Love Ready and hosted by Robin Ducharme.
If you'd like to keep learning with us, visit realloveready.com
for more resources and tools to boost your relational skills and
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what they need to hear. We at Real Love Ready
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